The Voices of Military Alcatraz

Alcatraz Island

Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 14439

Between 1850 and 1934 Fortress Alcatraz guarded the San Francisco Bay and became a United States Disciplinary Barracks The stories shared here are from those who lived it, their voices now bring to life some of this era. Unlike the recorded details we are used to hearing these stories shed a personal light on what Alcatraz was all about when they were there.

For more Post on Alcatraces History

 

The Post Exchange, as discussed by the Dungeons'.

Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives

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"If you were on duty at Fort McDowell, then Alcatraz was one of those places your didn't want to go to." - Arthur E. Dudgeon

 

• Mr. And Mrs. Dudgeon

  
  

  National Park Ranger Sarah Conklin interviews Mr. and Mrs. Dudgeon about their time at the military prison on Fort Alcatraz from 1929 to 1934

  Date created:

  01/11/2024

  Audio Transcript

  Mrs. Dudgeon:	... [inaudible 00:00:07] they had a laundry and everything over there.
  Conklin:	This is a tape we're making with the ... now, what's your names?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Dudgeon.
  Conklin:	Dudgeon, Mr. and Mrs. Dudgeon, who were on Alcatraz from 19-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	'29 to 1934.
  Conklin:	Which is the military prison time-
  [00:00:30] Mrs. Dudgeon:	Mm- mm (negative), military disciplinary barracks.
  Conklin:	Military disciplinary barracks-
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yeah, it wasn't prison.
  Conklin:	... the western. What's your first name?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Arthur.
  Conklin:	Arthur, what was your job?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	It was at the hospital.
  Conklin:	A doctor?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No, no. Medical department.
  Conklin:	Where on the island was the hospital located?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	On the top floor of the jail.
  Conklin:	Where was the jail?
  [00:01:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	On top of the rock.
  Conklin:	Okay, [crosstalk 00:01:02] the fourth building, the Citadel Building contained the hospital. Which way did it face?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	It faced the back of the jail. It faced San Francisco. The hospital was on the top floor in the back, whether you call that north or east.
  Conklin:	Yeah, I don't know.
  [00:01:30] Mrs. Dudgeon:	The hospital itself didn't face toward the [inaudible 00:01:32].
  Conklin:	It was the rear portion of the building, the front being where the lighthouse was.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  Conklin:	Okay, so then the hospital was the top rear.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Top rear.
  Conklin:	Did the people that were in the disciplinary barracks, were they allowed to walk around the island freely?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	You mean the prisoners? No.
  Conklin:	The prisoners.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No, only the trustees.
  [00:02:00] Conklin:	About how many trustees were there in relation to the inmate population?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I think about an eighth.
  Conklin:	An eighth of them were trustees. How many prisoners? What was the head count on the average when you were there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	About 300.
  Conklin:	The cell blocks were A, B or ... Were there three cell blocks in the main building?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	[inaudible 00:00:02:29].
  [00:02:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	I forgot. I believe there was only two. Maybe there was three.
  Conklin:	They had the flat iron bars?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  Conklin:	The building ... because my understanding was that they knocked down Fort Alcatraz and the Citadel and replaced it with that big concrete building that's there now, that you don't like.
  [00:03:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, that building's been there since [inaudible 00:03:03]. I think that's when-
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No, the one I didn't like were some of the buildings that were there.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Some of the old quarters.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Not the prison itself, but the other buildings-
  Conklin:	In the front of the island, those new apartments?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	... on the San Francisco side and on the Angel Island side, and down on the docks. There was a little cottage right close to the dock that we lived in for a while. I understand it's gone. You could look right across to Berkeley campus.
  [00:03:30] Conklin:	I've seen that. I've seen pictures of that house. That was a nice house.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Right in there, right up close against the Post Exchange.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	The bowling alley was in that building.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The bowling alley was in the Post Exchange.
  Conklin:	On a typical day on Alcatraz, in your capacity, what was your job? What would you do, say, in the morning in the prison hospital?
  [00:04:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	[crosstalk 00:03:55] Mostly I would hold sick call. The sick call for the guard company. One of the sick call for the drug company. Prisoners and things [inaudible 00:04:02] sick call.
  Conklin:	Were there people in beds in the hospital, or were they transferred to San Francisco?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	A few of the enlisted men. Not prisoners. Yes. Which [inaudible 00:04:22] San Francisco, Letterman John.
  Conklin:	Letterman, then was the big transfer place. I think that was still true during other prison on the island.
  [00:04:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	Was it federal?
  Conklin:	Yeah. Letterman seems to... I can remember people mentioning Letterman a lot, probably because it's a military.
  	Let's see. I guess what we really would like to know are your general feelings about the island. Were you very fond of the place? What were some of your favorite memories from being on the island and the people that you live there with, and the whole thing?
  [00:05:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	We had quite a few people that we liked very much.
  Speaker:	Was the idea of it being a prison imposing all the time?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No, it didn't bother us at all. It didn't bother us at all.
  Conklin:	Did it see much like a prison, or were the people just there and you were taking care of them? And was there a lot of hostility? Were there a lot of fights?
  [00:05:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	No. Quite a few fights, yes.
  Conklin:	Anyone hurt?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Between the prisoners.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No hostility. Maybe guards and the prisoners that is necessary.
  Conklin:	What was the average length of stay in terms of the prisoners on the Island? Can you think of an average amount of years that people seem to spend there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	[inaudible 00:05:56] was in there all the way from six months to life. The average sentence, I would say... A bunch of us were there while I was there. It was around 20 years.
  [00:06:00] Conklin:	20 years was an average people-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That is the population while I was there.
  Conklin:	Had 20 years to spend?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	On average. I'm just taking it all together.
  [00:06:30] Conklin:	Okay. What would be an average age, or is there an average age?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	All ages.
  Conklin:	All ages. Racial composition? What was the racial composition?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Black and white.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Everything, really.
  Conklin:	Really? No bulk of any certain age or race.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Okay. Any in terms of the crimes people were there for, were you in tuned at all with that?
  [00:07:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	The colored that were there while I was there were all from the riots in Houston.
  Conklin:	It was a large riot in Houston. Was it a military riot.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	And most of the people were black?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	A bunch of colored troops, mutiny.
  Conklin:	From what year would this have been? The mutiny in Houston was about what year?
  [00:07:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	I think it was around the early part of the century. I believe it was in 19 [inaudible 00:07:39] .
  Conklin:	So, that's why they were sentenced.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They was still, I think it was about 15 of them, that was transferred to [inaudible 00:07:51] when we flowed the prison out.
  Conklin: [00:08:00]	I hate to jump around, but I remember you saying that you helped close the military barracks, and saw the coming of the next prison. Would you just tell me about those days? Little interesting stories about the transfer? Were you upset by it? Did you want to stay there?
  Mr. Dudgeon: [00:08:30]	I knew it was going to close, but I left. I left six months before that. We got on CC duty. When I was out there, I worked the hospital. Stayed in the hospital six months, and when I got out of the hospital, I was transferred to a new station from Alcatraz.
  Conklin:	But it closed while you were gone.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	[crosstalk 00:08:41] I was still living there.
  Conklin:	Okay. Now I'd like to hear from you about what it was like when the change was coming. Just tell me some about it.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:09:00]	First off, it was a wonderful place to live, as far as families were concerned because there was tennis courts and bowling alley in the clubs. And they had the entertainment come over from San Francisco, and they entertain both the prisoners and the people who lived there.
  Conklin:	Together in one room?
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:09:30] [00:10:00]	Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Then, they had the gardens over on Angel Island, and the prisoners worked in the gardens and they had all sorts of fresh vegetables, and they'd bring them over. And the families good, for a certain sum a month, we could get all the fresh vegetables in and squabs dressed, ready for the oven, and a fresh bouquet once a week, the flowers that they brought over. When we had a dance or a club meeting, or some event for the people who lived there, both civilians and military, because there were lighthouse and the people who ran the utilities, the prisoners, some of them could play and they would play for cigarettes.
  	We didn't pay them, but we gave them a cigarette to play for us. They had civilians running the lighthouse, power plant, the laundry, had our own laundry. And there were-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Modeled industries.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:10:30]	Yeah, model industries. And we had a lot of trees and flowers. Of course, [inaudible 00:10:26] had been taken over, but the Island was pretty then, because it was covered with this rock plant. Nice plant. And there were a lot of trees.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Very few trees.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Huh?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Very few trees.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	They were small ones, but there were a lot of them. Not very big ones.
  Conklin:	Yeah.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	And then the quarters, they had the houses at the end of the Island was the parade ground and the tennis courts were there. And they had houses for families of military who were living there and also, the lighthouse.
  Conklin:	How big was your house, and how much was your rent and what year was that?
  [00:11:00] Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:11:30]	Well, let's see, I don't know rent. We just had the house. If we didn't have a house that gave us a quarters allowance someplace else. But you took whatever it was. We had the big house on top of the hill, which was a two story house and it was a two bedroom. And then, we were down in the little cottage. First, we were in the little cottage. And then we went to the top of the hill. Then we came back to the cottage because a man with more seniority and higher rank came in and he preferred to be up there, and we liked the cottage. It was fine. We would have took the cottage. And it was a two bedroom, but it was small.
  Conklin:	Okay. But you don't remember the rent, or you didn't pay rent?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No. You don't pay rent.
  Conklin:	It was rent free?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	You're allowed so much for quarters.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	If you didn't have a house on the base, on the post, then they allowed you so many dollars a month to find your own apartment.
  Conklin:	Off the Island?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	I see.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	We just lost that, and then we moved on the island.
  [00:12:00] Mrs. Dudgeon:	Then there was a big barracks, a building built over the dock. And that was an apartment. So, my sister who was going to college the time, came to live with us. And she married an army man. And they had an apartment over in one of those apartments.
  Conklin:	That building, they called it in the prison base Building 64. And that's still there.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	I don't remember.
  Conklin:	It's still there.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:12:30]	And I remember my little nephew, he used to watch for the boat to come back when I came home from work. He watched the seagulls around the launch. The first word he ever said, was not daddy or mother. It was bird. Watching the birds.
  [00:13:00]	Angel Island was occupied, then. It was a fort, Fort McDowell. They had a movie house over there, and when they had movies or a basketball game, they'd bring everybody on the Island. And if you want, they'll tell you that there was so and so going on and you could go down and get the launching free. Free transportation over, and see free the picture or the game free. And if you were going to be late coming home the city, let the watch master know, and he'd meet you at the dock over Fort Mason. First, there were regular boats that ran at regular times, but we'd leave our cars over there at Fort Mason. And then they would pick us up.
  Speaker: [00:13:30]	You mentioned quite a few things. There is a bowling alley, you could go to the island for the movies. What else?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Well, there were the tennis courts, and...
  Speaker:	On Alcatraz?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yes, on the parade grounds. And there was a club room that they call it. There was a place where they had a woman's club and an officers, and the other clubs that they, the military had car parties. And we had a few dances. So, they had different kinds of just regular social club meetings.
  [00:14:00] Speaker:	Was that where the entertainment was?
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:14:30]	No, entertainment was up in the main prison. It was a big home where they had a mean band every once in a while, or part of an opera company, or part of a stage play or, a musical orchestra over. We had something at least once a month as I remember. At least once a month and sometimes oftener, cause I remember we had a real nice entertainment at least once a month. And we got to see some of the things that you would pay quite considerably to go to see in San Francisco, then we'd drive over there under recreation for the troops on business.
  Conklin:	Did you feel free to have your friends come visit you on the island? Was that a very easy thing?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.
  Conklin:	What was the procedure? Did they require a pass?
  [00:15:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	If you couldn't meet him at the boat to bring them over, you had to get a pass and send it over so that they could bring them with them.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	If you couldn't meet them. But if you were going to meet them at the boat, they didn't need a pass.
  Conklin:	And how long could they stay? As long as they pleased? Could they stay a month?
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:15:30]	Oh, any time. We had my brother and sister in law and the two children there, living with us for about six weeks. It was decent. And another thing was nice, because the children, while there were a few trucks going up and down the hill, carrying things, the children had to run the place and they used to watch out for them. I remember my little nephew decided to come down to our house down the Hill. And some of the prisoners driving the trucks saw him running down the middle of the road. And his mother didn't know he could walk that far yet.
  Conklin:	They took him home?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	They took care of the children, the prisoners.
  Conklin:	Was there sort of a family feeling on the island with the prisoners and you?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Those that were out and doing things. Yes, I think so.
  [00:16:00] Conklin:	Did you feel afraid of them? Were you scared at all?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Oh, no. I never had the least bit of a fear or uneasiness night or day, or anytime.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Really not as much as you have out here.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Not as much as you have out the streets most of the time now.
  Conklin:	I even got that feeling from people when it was a maximum security prison. I've heard a lot of stories about that. It was a very tight family island. That was a very pleasant place to live.
  [00:16:30] Mrs. Dudgeon:	There were only a few that were maximum security when you were there, weren't there? Just maybe half a dozen or something of that sort? I know there weren't very many, and some of there, the only thing is they had to sleep there and eat there and eat their meals up there. But otherwise, they were practically like anybody else, coming and going.
  Conklin:	Just regular people doing their time.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:17:00]	And they did the jobs in various industries, and they worked over in the farm every morning, and went over in season and worked on the farm, vegetable, and flower gardens over on Angel Island and back again. Just like you can go to work and back.
  Conklin:	So, the majority of the prisoners done were out and about doing things. A few of them would be locked up in the main prison because of security reasons and punishment.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Really, we had no maximum.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Weren't there two of them in there that were not military when you live there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  [00:17:30] Mrs. Dudgeon:	No, they weren't even there then. And when they closed it, of course, Red wasn't there. He had been on CC duty. He'd contracted pneumonia, and he was over at Letterman Hospital.
  Conklin:	You were there alone?
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:18:00]	Yes. I was working in San Francisco, and I went back and forth, and I stayed in the house. Of course, getting things packed up, my sister and brother in laws were there. And then when they left and closed it up, both my sister and I felt sad to leave it because it had been a very happy place to live, and very pleasant place. The men used to go fishing. We could catch striped bass right off of the dock, or on the rocks.
  Conklin:	I caught stripers last year. It's neat.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	Big ones.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	How many were you allowed to catch?
  Conklin:	No one knew I was doing it. So I got about two or three, but I wasn't having much luck. It was fun.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	We had no limit.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No limit for us, no.
  Conklin:	Oh, I bet you didn't have a limit out there.
  [00:18:30] Mrs. Dudgeon:	They used to scalp them and everything, pickle them. Then, some of the officers and some of the men used to go down Monterey fishing. And the launch master was quite a fisherman. He knew how to salt down fish and smoke them and that sort of thing. Go to Monterey and get mackerel, and come back. We had all of the bass there. This might be interesting to some of the younger people. I think the first time anyone was successful in swimming from Alcatraz to the mainland was done by the daughter of one of the-
  Conklin:	The warden?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No.
  [00:19:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	Quarter master.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Quarter master Simon's daughter. And she practiced quite a while, and her brother was in the Navy. And he watched and check the tides for her and all that sort of thing. And they watched him check the tides, and the weather and everything. And they had a boat just in case she got in trouble, but she made it. That was the first one that ever made it all the way across.
  Speaker:	That was when you were there?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  [00:19:30]	We knew her. She was one of the teenagers.
  Conklin:	Do you remember what year that was, possibly?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	That was probably in '33, wasn't it? '33, or maybe it was in '34.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	'34, while I was in the hospital.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	That's right. Just before they closed down, because she was afraid she wasn't going to get a chance to do it before her father was transferred out.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Since then, there's been a lot of them swimming.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	They may [inaudible 00:19:52] the chance, but sometimes they'd call for, help and they get them. Sometimes the body would be washed up someplace. Sometimes you would never see them because of the current [crosstalk 00:20:04].
  [00:20:00] Conklin:	How many escape attempts do you remember for the time you were there?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	I only remember two, but they didn't get that far either.
  Conklin:	Do you remember their names?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No. I didn't know the prisoners.
  Speaker:	What was the model industry program you mentioned?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Furniture making, clothing repair.
  Speaker:	I see.
  Conklin:	Why did they use the term model? I don't understand that.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't either. I don't either.
  Conklin:	It was just called model industries?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Called model industries, that's all.
  Conklin:	Were the men paid for their work?
  [00:20:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	They received a small pay.
  Speaker:	Were the furniture [inaudible 00:20:34] just people who lived on the Island, or did they have an outlet?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Repairing furniture. They've made some new furniture.
  Conklin:	And shift it off the Island or sold it to people on the island?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They let them sell it to individuals if they wanted to.
  Conklin:	On the island?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	Okay. What was the food like in the prison?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Very good.
  [00:21:00] Conklin:	And everybody ate the same food? You ate the same thing as a prisoner would eat, then?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I ate in the regular mass, yes.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Most of the people-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Most of the time I ate at home.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Most all of the people who were stationed there, except the guard company who weren't married. They had their mess, but all the married men ate at home because it was just as far as from here to the corner.
  Conklin: [00:21:30]	Yeah. One of the biggest things we thought we knew about the time, it's hard to know what we really know. I get a picture that they just brought barges full of top soil over. And it was the prisoner's job on Alcatraz to bring the soil off the barge onto the Island and do some of the basic plannings. In the thirties, were they still doing that?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Wasn't too much of it.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	The soil transfer stopped?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They never did bring any soil while I was there.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No, not over there. But that's how it was, because they started growing things.
  [00:22:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	There was little [inaudible 00:22:02] left out on the rocks.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	The rock plants, you know?
  Conklin:	Yeah.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	That just covered it. It as beautiful.
  Conklin:	Ivy.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Not ivy, it's a little succulent, and has a very pretty-
  Conklin:	It's called bisem branthem, I think.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	One of them, they used to call prison carpet. The small...
  Conklin:	Purple?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Very small. Yeah.
  Conklin:	Oh, they still have that.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	It was very tiny.
  Conklin:	Yes. And it's so beautiful. It's in the front of the island. [crosstalk 00:22:25] Just cascades down the side.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	It was over all the rocks, all over the sides.
  [00:22:30] Conklin:	Was the whole front of the Island covered with century plants when you were there? Huge, very prickly-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	From the lighthouse over to that side.
  Conklin:	Solid century plants. Oh, they're huge now.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	But they took out some of them when they put that big building up there on the edge of the parade ground. That was put up by the federal [inaudible 00:22:50].
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:23:00]	Federal put all that barbed wire around. When it came to federal government, they put all that barbed wire around, and they put up some big torch lights and some others buildings. And it just sort of spoiled some of the things.
  Conklin:	So, when you were there, there wasn't a security fence around the perimeter of the Island.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Oh, no, no. You could go right down to fish right down on the rocks.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	You could walk right down to the water's edge.
  Conklin:	Then the prisoners free access right down to the shore.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes. Those that were free.
  Conklin:	If they were not being watched and were out.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	If they were not under guard.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	If they were not under guard or restricted, for some reason or another. Misbehavior or something.
  Conklin:	They could just walk and have free roam of the island.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes.
  [00:23:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	Of course, they didn't have much free time.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	They were busy.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Even though they were not under guard, they'd have to go back and forth from one job to the other.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	They had certain jobs they had to do.
  Speaker:	What all would they be doing besides working on Angel Island at the furniture shop?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Did they work in the laundry?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The laundry. Quartermaster laundry.
  [00:24:00] Speaker:	For other bases?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Speaker:	They'd bring it in?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They did all the quartermaster laundry. At that time, they were doing most of the laundry for Letterman, too.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	So, they did the laundry for them, and people who lived there could send their laundry also.
  Conklin:	And they had to bring all the water in by barge?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	The water came over by barge morning. Every morning, the water boat came over.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I rode the water boat quite a bit.
  Speaker:	Where'd they come from?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Fort Mason.
  [00:24:30] Mrs. Dudgeon:	We lived in the apartment over in the Marina for a while. And in order to get over to the hospital on time for sick call, he would leave and ride the water barge over because the water boat went over, what was it? Five o'clock in the morning.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Six o'clock, something like that.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	It pulled out Seven o'clock sharp.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:25:00]	Very early, anyway, before the launch or the regular boat went across. And it would get him over in time. And if you're waiting for the regular boat or the launch, he wouldn't. And so he rode the water boat a lot. Actually, the boat is a sightseeing boat around the bay now. It takes sightseeing, what's the name of it?
  Conklin:	Harper Tourist?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	A tourist.
  Conklin:	One of the small ones?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	General Frank M. Cox.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	It was the boat that ran to Alcatraz and Angel Ireland on a regular schedule then. And then there was a Q-9, which it was a quartermaster master, like a small launch.
  [00:25:30]	How big was it the Q-9?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	32 feet.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	And it was for just in between. And this went back and forth to Alcatraz. Or if it took a group over to Angel Island from Alcatraz for a game or some sort of recreation, or that sort of thing. Picnics.
  Conklin:	So it ran on the schedule then?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  Conklin:	But if the boat man was understanding, in case you had-
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	The launch master, yeah.
  Conklin:	In case you had a friend who was a little bit later, if you needed a ride somewhere?
  [00:26:00] Mrs. Dudgeon:	Well, if the people who lived there were going to be on the mainland for dinner, or they were going to the theater or anything, they leave word with them when they were going to be back at Fort Mason to come home. And the last boat left at 11:00 or 12:00?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	12:00.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	12:00. And if you're going to be later than 12:00, and you told the launch master when you'd be back, and the small launch would come and get you.
  Conklin:	Oh, how nice.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:26:30]	So that you didn't get stranded. So, you wouldn't have to leave. If you're going to the opera, for instance, you couldn't get back down by 12:00. Parl your car, and go-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The big boat would make a round trip from 11:00 to 12:00. It would go from Fort Mason to Fort McDowell, and back to Fort Mason. Stops at Alcatraz while going to For McDowell, and stop at Alcatraz coming back. Took an hour, round-trip.
  Conklin:	Was it early in your married life that you lived there, or had you been married for a while before you were transferred?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No. Rather early.
  [00:27:00] Conklin:	Was it a romantic place to be?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't know.
  Conklin:	Oh, come on.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:27:30]	If you look back to 1930s, nothing was very romantic, then. CCC camps, the depression, and everybody took a cut in pay. Actually, they didn't let army personnel reenlist in the lower grades because they were cutting down because of the expenses. That threw them out, and no work.
  Conklin:	So, actually getting those sprayed vegetables from Angel Island was a big help, I bet.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	It was a dollar a month.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No, no.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yes, it was.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Vegetables were one cent a toss.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yeah. Well, a toss is about a dollar a month from what we got. Vegetables plus the squab and the flowers for free.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The squab was too dense.
  [00:28:00] Mrs. Dudgeon:	This was another thing. We didn't lock the door. And they'd bring the squab, already dressed, and the prisoner would bring it back, and they'd bring it in and put it in the refrigerator. They'd leave the flowers inside in water for you. I mean, there was no question of anybody. Nobody ever missed anything. You didn't lock the doors, and they just brought things and left them.
  Conklin:	And they kind of watched your children, too.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yes. They don't let them do things they shouldn't, or hurt themselves. It was a wonderful place for youngsters.
  [00:28:30] Speaker:	Could they have things in their cells? Was there-
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	I don't know anything about the inside. He was inside, and I was only in the recreation hall.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The only thing they could have was, some of them had a book or two. But no radio. Nothing like that.
  Speaker:	They didn't want you to know what was going on in the outside world?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, no. They'd let them have [crosstalk 00:28:56].
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	They had a library.
  [00:29:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	In the main jail building, over the front, the officers in front. It was all officers [inaudible 00:29:09] how big the place was. Upstairs was all one big room up over the officers. That was where the library and the meeting hall was for the program, and picture shows and stuff like that.
  [00:29:30] Conklin:	I think they still retain those uses during the next prison.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They did.
  Conklin:	I think that's where the movie hall was too. And the church. They had that in the same building.
  Mrs. Dudgeon: [00:30:00]	I think the only thing only place in the actual prison building I was in, was the recreational and the infirmary hospital. I was up in the pharmacy. And then the... What was the room you call it where you had this sick call and first aid treatment?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Sick call room.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	I guess, sick call room. But those are the only two places I was ever in the prison.
  Conklin:	Was it a pretty security-minded place? I mean, you just did not go into the prison or did you not go because you never wanted to go?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	I think people did go, but I just never-
  Conklin:	You never thought to do it?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	No, because I was working over in San Francisco.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	But you had to go at a certain time. You couldn't go just [crosstalk 00:30:28].
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	You couldn't go just any time.
  Conklin:	You just couldn't walk through the prison?
  [00:30:30] Mrs. Dudgeon:	No, no.
  Conklin:	As a woman, you'd have to...
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Or a man. Nobody could, except people who had business there. But a lot of people came over and visited the prison, but I just never bothered.
  Conklin:	When prisoners had visitors, could they sit in the same room with the visitors? And could they receive gifts and packages from home?
  [00:31:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	They received packages and gifts from home, yes. But for visitors, very, very, very seldom.
  Speaker:	Did they have a glass wall between them?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Speaker:	Or could they embrace, or shake hands?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They could, yes.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Just like in a regular room.
  Conklin:	In the same room?
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Sitting room.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The few that did have visitors, they took them up the... I don't know what they called that room up there.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Well, it was actually like a living room, or a sitting room or something of that sort.
  Conklin:	Just a visiting room.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Yes, a visitor's room.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That was the recreation, or that was what we called a recreation room.
  [00:31:30] Speaker:	Did they not have too many visitors because nobody came, or was it hard to clear a visitor?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The army didn't believe in that.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	They didn't encourage it.
  Speaker:	Do you feel you saw different line of ailments at the hospital there than you would at other hospitals, or just general, everyday colds?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No, everyday occurrences.
  Speaker:	Yeah. There wasn't anything special about working at that hospital in terms of ailments?
  [00:32:00] Conklin:	People didn't get more colds?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No, no. In fact, the sick call was lower there than it would have been at Fort McDowell when I was stationed there.
  Conklin:	So, you were at McDowell, too then?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes.
  Conklin:	In the same capacity?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  Mrs. Dudgeon:	Except when you were mess sergeant.
  [00:32:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	I was mess sergeant at McDowell, too.
  Conklin:	The man of all trades.
  	What were the differences between Angel and Alcatraz, in terms of the feelings? Must have been markedly different because there was no prison.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	If you were on duty at Fort McDowell, then Alcatraz was one of those places you didn't want to go into.
  Conklin:	I see. Why don't we stop, and you can have your dinner.
  [00:33:00] [00:33:30] [00:34:00]	As luck would have it, he started talking to me upstairs and we didn't get this part recorded, but he brought up the Dungeons. And I had him describe the Dungeons. And he said they were down below the level of the prison. The entrance was the entrance next to A block. They were seven cells that were hollowed out just from the solid rock. They were like little rooms with the rocks surrounding them, and a regular cell door on the front. He said that somehow, there was a passageway that came out right near the industrial buildings. And I think that passageway still exists. Or I know now where the other side of the door is. And he said that the army didn't use them much, and that there was another place that, he wasn't clear about this; there was another place where you could walk out through this passageway. And if you walked up through it during high tide, you'd get your feet wet, but I couldn't make much sense of it.

  Conklin:	I don't know when it starts. Let me see.
  	Okay. Upstairs, just a little bit ago, you were describing for me the dungeon portion of the island. Can you do that again? Because there's a lot of crazy stories going around about the dungeons. So, just tell me what you know of them.
  [00:00:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	What I saw.
  Conklin:	And what was that?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Six different cells. About 10' square, shoot out of the solid rock.
  Conklin:	Down underneath?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Underneath the building itself.
  Conklin:	Okay. Did you say they had cell front doors on the front of them?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
  Conklin:	Okay. And they opened individually with keys?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  [00:01:00] Conklin:	Were they full, or were they hardly ever used, or what?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Not used by the Army.
  Conklin:	But they were there from the old fort days?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The old Spanish fort.
  Conklin:	They were Spanish dungeon cells?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  Conklin:	I see.
  Speaker:	Those, you entered from the main cell block up top?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yeah.
  Speaker:	Not by the solid door?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That was the only you could get in, go down through the floor, to the basement of the jail. And then, just keep on going down.
  [00:01:30]	You could also go clear out over to the edge of the water, down through the tunnels.
  Conklin:	There was a tunnel leading from the old dungeon area, down to the water line?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Down to the water line.
  Speaker:	You could stand up and walk out the whole way?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	It used to be.
  Speaker:	Is it a brick line, or just cut of the rock?
  Mr. Dudgeon: [00:02:00]	No, dug out of the rock. But there's gates put in below the dungeons, that is, the Army put one in, put a door in. Just like over the front of the cells, where the isolation rooms.
  Speaker:	Where did that tunnel come out at?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Right underneath the Model Industries building.
  Speaker:	Which would be, what, towards Sausalito, say? Or, around Angel Island?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	On the Sausalito corner, towards Belvedere.
  Speaker:	Was there a landing out there when you got there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, no.
  Speaker:	Just drop off?
  [00:02:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	It was right on the edge of the water. You walked right out into water.
  Speaker:	Oh.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	And at high tide, the opening was completely closed. And low tide, you could get your feet wet walking out.
  Speaker:	But they didn't use the downstairs at all for anything while you were there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, no. No. That was all locked up. Wasn't even used for storage of any kind.
  Conklin:	Were there any rats on the island in the basement?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	There was a few. There was a few down there in the dungeon.
  [00:03:00] Conklin:	Let's see ... There's a chance the Park is going to be acquiring Angel Island, and I really don't think we know anything about Angel Island. Can you tell me what you remember about it from the early days, what it was like, what it did, did you like it over there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, the place was nice service. Easy.
  Speaker:	Where was that guard your wife was talking about?
  [00:03:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	When you go to the front of the ... You go up to go to the island, from Fort Mason, you look right up past the left-hand side of the island, over there on the side of Angel Island, about midway between the water and the top of the island.
  [00:04:00]	There's an old building over there, about 60' long, and three stories, setting out on the side of the hill by itself. That is, it used to be. I don't think there's anything more of the building there. And that was the pigeon loft. Two upper stories was the pigeon loft. And they used the bottom floor for sorting the vegetables out, the radishes and ...
  Conklin:	And the garden was right near there, then?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes.
  Speaker:	And only the prisoners worked on that garden?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Only the prisoners.
  [00:04:30] Conklin:	Did it supply the vegetables for Angel Island also, for the military base there? Camp McDowell?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, not the casuals, no. But from the residents, yes.
  Conklin:	What's a "casual?" That's low-grade personnel? Or, low-salaried people?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	People going from one station to another, go there for shipment.
  Conklin:	Oh, just a waiting time?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Just waiting.
  [00:05:00] Speaker:	Any average on ... A few days, or a couple weeks? Could they stay there a few months?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Maybe one day, maybe two or three months.
  Conklin:	Transit. It's like transit there, then?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes. Overseas Replacement Depot, was what it was, ORD.
  Conklin:	And what year ... This would be the '30s, then?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah. Late '20s, early '30s. Now, the ORD is over at Alameda. And for a while, it was up in Stoneman.
  [00:05:30] Conklin:	Where is Camp Stoneman?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Pittsburg. It's up the river.
  Conklin:	Okay. Clothing, and showers. For the prisoners, how often would they be showered?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They showered every day.
  [00:06:00] Conklin:	Every day. What did the clothing look like for the prisoners during the work day, and was it any different than the weekends?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	Always the same uniform?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They had a dress uniform.
  Conklin:	And what did that look like?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That was dark. I think it was dyed serge.
  Conklin:	Just plain pants and top, with a shirt and a coat? Or, just a shirt top?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Dark shirt.
  Conklin:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
  [00:06:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	Plus, they had to have the "DB" on the back, or on the leg of their trousers.
  Conklin:	DV? What's that?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Discipline Barracks.
  Conklin:	Oh, DB. I see.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That was usually on the leg.
  Conklin:	On the outside of the right leg?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Speaker:	Both legs?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Not necessarily. And their number was across the back.
  Conklin:	Across the back. Did they ever wear stripes?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	Always what color, for regular wear?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Blue denim.
  [00:07:00] Conklin:	Blue denim. And the correctional officers or the guards, what kind of clothes did they wear?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Army uniform.
  Conklin:	Okay.
  Speaker:	What was the dress uniform for the ... The prisoners had two sets of clothing?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah. They had the work clothing, the blue denim, and then, what they called dress, or Sunday uniform, was dark.
  Speaker:	Oh. Was that a wool, or was that a cotton?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I believe it was wool. ORD material was dyed black.
  [00:07:30] Speaker:	I see. And that had the numbers and the "DBs" as well?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah. Each individual man had a different number. All of them had the "DB."
  Conklin:	Okay. In terms of church services, was there a communal thing Sunday, and everybody, families and prisoners went alike? Or, did they have separate services?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Very seldom, any families went up to the church services.
  Conklin:	They could have, if they wanted to?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I think so.
  Conklin:	But they didn't.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Most of them went to San Francisco.
  [00:08:00] Conklin:	Were any babies born on the island while you were there? Tell me, tell me.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't think there was.
  Conklin:	You're just laughing over there, what? Go on. Come sit down and tell me.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	All of them were taken over to deliver over at Letterman.
  Conklin:	Were there any close calls?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	One.
  [00:08:30] Conklin:	One close call, huh? That's what you're laughing about? Tell me. That'd be a nice story to share with people.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	It happened from Fort Mason to Letterman.
  Conklin:	It was on the boat?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No, no. In an ambulance.
  Conklin:	Oh.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They got them off the boat.
  Conklin:	Oh, I see. That could have been real exciting, huh?
  Conklin: [00:09:00]	Well, my little niece was almost in the ambulance. Doctor [Brothers 00:08:54] called the boat, and my sister said she had plenty of time, and Doctor Brothers said, "No, she didn't," and he called the ambulance to be down at the dock, and they didn't get her call routed, and she almost had her in the ambulance [inaudible 00:09:13] to Letterman, and just ran off with the stretcher, and rolled the stretcher right into the living room, hose and all.
  Conklin:	That's great.
  Conklin:	I thought they said one was delivered on the launch before we went there.
  [00:09:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah, while I was there.
  Conklin:	Yeah. Let's see.
  Conklin:	But they went to Letterman for things of that sort.
  Conklin:	Did women seem to have big families when they were there? What was the average number of kids per family?
  Conklin:	Like most families everywhere, it wasn't any different than any other [crosstalk 00:09:51].
  Conklin:	Is that five or six, or is that two?
  Conklin:	I think the biggest family there was five, wasn't it?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Thorntons was the largest family.
  Conklin:	There was five.
  [00:10:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah. Most of them had one or two.
  Conklin:	And there were three ... The Scotts were three, the two girls and the boy that went to the Navy.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, there was four Scotts, but only two of them-
  Conklin:	But only three of them were there at the time. One was away.
  	And then, there was two next to us ... No, three. The two girls, and Twiggy, that came along, after the girls were in high school.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, that's right. I was thinking there was only two girls in that family. There was three.
  [00:10:30] Conklin:	Yeah. But I don't think there was any ... Yeah, there was one family, just had one. But there was one, two ... The biggest one, there was only one that had as many as five.
  Conklin:	How many families lived on the island at one time, would you say? Could you just estimate the number? Like, 50, or 20?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, let's see ...
  [00:11:00] Conklin:	You have to count the upper and lower, and [crosstalk 00:11:09]
  Mr. Dudgeon:	20 would be more like it.
  Conklin:	25, I would guess.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I think between 20 and 30. Two of them are civilian.
  Conklin:	How was the communication between you and the family that ran the power house, and the people in the lighthouse? Where they at all considered different because they were civilians? Or, everyone was one big group?
  Conklin:	We knew them just as well as we did the [crosstalk 00:11:28].
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Another family, as far as we ...
  [00:11:30] Conklin:	How did you handle the mail? Was there a Postmaster in residence at the island? Because I know in the later prison, they had a woman who ran the Post Office.
  Conklin:	As I recall, it wasn't the regular Postmaster. They brought the mail over, and it went to the guard company, where Johnny worked. But we got our mail right there, on the island.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	We didn't have a Postmaster on the island.
  [00:12:00] Conklin:	We didn't have a Postmaster, it came over and went up there at the administrative office.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah, it went to [crosstalk 00:12:03].
  Conklin:	It was delivered.
  Conklin:	Did you have a store on the island, a small bread and milk store?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	You all had to shop at the city? Was that cumbersome at all, moving all your bags of groceries to the boat, and then, off the boat, on to the ... Would you go with friends, or would you go alone, shopping?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Huh?
  Conklin: [00:12:30]	Did the women just go shopping together, like three or four of you go grocery shopping? Or, it was mostly, you waited till your husband got home?
  Conklin:	A lot of things we could order, and have come over on the boat.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Have it delivered down to the dock.
  Conklin:	And just pick it up at the dock.
  Conklin:	For an extra charge?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No. No. No charge.
  Conklin:	The store would deliver to the boat?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes.
  Conklin: [00:13:00]	The service messes shopped over in the city for their provisions. I was trying to think. Some of them went over on Angel Island, the commissary over there.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah. But most of them went to the commissary in the presidio. In the Letterman area.
  Conklin:	But most of the officers used the commissary in the presidio, or, if you didn't go to the commissary, things you get in the other stores, in the markets. But most of the shopping they did in the commissary, because then, they would take it down, put it on the boat. You didn't have to worry about it, from the commissary. It's just like delivery from a store. And there's no charge.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	We did have a post exchange there on the island.
  [00:13:30] Conklin:	Do you remember where that was located?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Sure.
  Conklin:	Where?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Right next door. It was a little hut that we had.
  Conklin:	Next to the hut on the dock?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No. The dock, then up a little ways, there was a building. Or, there used to be.
  Conklin:	Through the sally port?
  Mr. Dudgeon: [00:14:00]	Yeah, just through that, on the right-hand side, there's a building there. And underneath was a bowling alley, and the ground level, from the street level, was the post exchange. And the next building was our quarters.
  Speaker:	The one just up the hill?
  Conklin:	It was a little monk cottage. Just a little-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	A little cottage.
  Conklin:	A little cottage, sit right on this-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	And about 50 yards on up, near the ...
  Conklin:	Mother's house next-door.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	Beyond that would have been ...
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Where the road turns and comes back up.
  [00:14:30] Conklin:	That's right. I've seen pictures of those houses. Nice old white, old houses.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The one that we had down there, you might call it a cracker box. That type.
  Conklin:	But it was just a little cottage, and it was pushed right on the side, real steep, and just below us, there was the most gorgeous Shasta Daisies you ever want to see growing on the side. It was too steep to ... It would be mountain climbing to go down.
  Conklin:	Were you ever afraid, with your children out there, that they may fall off the side of the island?
  Conklin:	The children learned.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Very quickly.
  [00:15:00] Conklin:	It's like falling off the porch. They don't go out and fall off the porch.
  Conklin:	God.
  Conklin:	50 feet straight down on the cliffs.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	In the four years that I was assigned there, only one time that the children gave any trouble, other than that would expect. And only one at that.
  Conklin:	And what happened?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Climbed down, and couldn't get back up, on one of those steep banks.
  Conklin:	He yelled and screamed, huh?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	He got down there, he couldn't get back. It's just like climbing up some of these hills.
  Conklin:	Who went down after him? You remember? I remember. How'd we get him back up?
  [00:15:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	I think it was that ... The pilot of the launch. A Corporal.
  Speaker:	Did you have a private telephone there, or, could you have?
  Conklin:	Mm-hmm (affirmative). You had [crosstalk 00:15:48]
  Speaker:	Individual?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yeah.
  Speaker:	It wasn't any problem getting a phone line across?
  Conklin:	Oh, no.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, no, we didn't have a phone line across to the mainland. It had to be a tow line.
  [00:16:00] Conklin:	But we could call San Francisco from there, because I called Mona all the time, and Betty used to call me when she wanted to come over.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, that's right. We did have that.
  Conklin:	And then, there was an exchange there, so that the launch master could plug in and ring every phone on the island when he wanted to tell them that the launch would be available if anybody wanted to go to the basketball game or a movie.
  Speaker:	Over on-
  Conklin:	Angel Island.
  [00:16:30] Conklin:	Yeah. But otherwise, it was a private phone. Much better than we have where we are now. We can have 10 on the line, and you can't ever use it. We never had any trouble with that one.
  Speaker:	You said when it because a federal government, they put up the fences and all, which wasn't there beforehand. Did they have outside towers while you were there? What sort of security buildings or devices?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Just that walkway around the recreation area.
  Speaker:	They just figured the ocean-
  [00:17:00] Conklin:	And there were a couple big spotlights they could use if they wanted to, floodlights. They could turn on ...
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Floodlights?
  Conklin:	Yeah, up there toward the end, toward where the laundry and the car house were, and [crosstalk 00:17:08]
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, they had a couple searchlights over there. But it wasn't a floodlight. Each corner, three corners of that exercise compound yard had a little round box out there about three feet in diameter. And if it was raining out, a sentry could sit out there.
  Speaker:	I see.
  [00:17:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	Otherwise, he'd walk along that walkway along the top there, no protection whatever.
  Conklin:	Just like a sentry walking guard, a regular post.
  Speaker:	And normal prisoners would get in there, and the trustees would have duties outside the walls, right? Generally, the prisoners would just be either in their cells or in the recreation area?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That's when they weren't working.
  Speaker:	Okay.
  Conklin:	They worked under guard, even when they were not on [crosstalk 00:17:59]-
  [00:18:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	Recreation time, the trustees and the other was all in the same recreation area.
  Conklin:	The guards that walked through the prison building during the daytime, were they armed, normally, the floor guards? The people that walked-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Only with a short wooden club, about that long.
  Conklin:	This was [crosstalk 00:18:21], only shorter.
  Conklin:	About a foot-and-a-half long?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, very seldom any of them carried one that long. More like about 12 inches.
  Conklin:	12 inches. Okay.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	But I never did see one of them use it.
  [00:18:30] Conklin:	Yeah? Did any of the guards in the prison carry guns?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Not inside.
  Conklin:	Outside?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yes.
  Conklin:	Okay.
  Conklin:	I don't think I ever heard a shot all the time I was there.
  Speaker:	And the guards wore typical Army uniforms, no modifications at all?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Regular Army uniforms. OD uniforms.
  [00:19:00] Conklin:	We had one interesting-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They wore the OD year-round at Alcatraz. They didn't wear the cotton.
  Conklin:	Yeah, it's cold out there. What were you saying?
  Conklin:	We had one interesting character there, he was called Lobo.
  Speaker:	What is that, wolf?
  Conklin:	We had a Catholic priest, and his two sisters were there as his housekeepers. And he had this big German Shepherd, and he did look like a big wolf. And he was Lobo. And he just decided he was keeper of the grounds.
  [00:19:30]	And he was one of the ones that would ride herd on some of the children. And everybody thought, "Oh, those children, they shouldn't be near that dog." Lobo took care of them.
  Conklin:	Kind of a nursemaid, huh?
  Conklin:	He was quite a character. And the whole place belonged to him, and he was going to guard it. But it was interesting.
  [00:20:00]	The Catholic priest lived on the island. Didn't we have another Chaplain there? No, I think it was just the one, didn't we?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, he was assigned. He was there longer than anybody else.
  Conklin:	But I think only one at a time.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yeah, only one.
  Conklin:	But it happened to be a Catholic priest.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Lucky to have one.
  Conklin:	One of the things that I remember living there, and I think anybody who ever lived there probably, the women, anyway, was the fabulous sunsets.
  [00:20:30]	We looked right out through the gate, and that was before the bridge was across the gate.
  Conklin:	That must have been beautiful.
  Conklin:	And in the morning, you'd see the sun come up over the back of the hills on Berkeley. And many times, you'd see the sun, and you'd see the fog coming in the gate. It would split, go both sides of the island. You couldn't see San Francisco, you couldn't see Sausalito, and we didn't have sunlight. That was amazing.
  Conklin:	Do you remember the seagulls nesting? Did the birds nest on the island while you were there?
  Conklin:	I don't remember any seagulls.
  [00:21:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	Around on the side next to Belvedere, there's a little island.
  Conklin:	Little Alcatraz? That bird rock out there.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That's about as big as a hat.
  Conklin:	Yeah.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Once in a while, there'd be a nest made, but it wouldn't last very long.
  Conklin:	Yeah, that gets covered by water. Because they nest now a lot on the island. There was not much activity then.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	[crosstalk 00:21:22] There's not as much movement on the island as there used to be.
  Conklin:	Well, see, that was a busy place then.
  Speaker:	But pelicans are going to be out, too, aren't they?
  [00:21:30] Conklin:	They should be showing up pretty soon.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Around on the back side of the island, facing the gate, they had a dock back there. They took the boat to the dock. They had a big rock quarry.
  Conklin:	They used to quarry rock on the island?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	And sell it?
  Conklin:	They did it, long, long ago.
  [00:22:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	They'd take it over to Fort Mason, and take it over to the presidio, over Fort McDowell, put it on the roads. That's where they got so many crushed rock.
  Conklin:	From Alcatraz?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Speaker:	Did they do any major construction, or build many buildings while you were there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Not many. They didn't build any.
  Conklin:	I thought there was one set of officers' quarters that were over there.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They might have started that building out there on the parade grounds.
  Conklin:	I thought one building-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I think that was built after ... Maybe-
  Conklin:	See, Thornton's-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I believe that was started, but while I was out on CC.
  [00:22:30] Conklin:	Yeah, I think it was built while you were out on CC, because we wondered why they were building that ... Those big forests, it was Captain or Colonel's quarters, I don't know. It was a set of officers' quarters-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Bachelor officers' quarters.
  Conklin:	And it was probably senior officers' quarters. We worked while they were building those. Those two there, which was practically one building, but it was two sets of quarters.
  	When they had those houses that were already there, and they were disbanding the place. They were vacating the place. We wondered why they built them.
  	Then, we thought perhaps they went ahead and built them because they were going to use them, the federal prison people were going to use them, and I don't know whether they did or not.
  Conklin: [00:23:00]	Did they come out a lot to the island and do a lot of work for ... While you were there, and they were closing, did you see a lot of new federal people show up?
  Conklin:	No.
  Conklin:	You got off quietly towards the end, and then they came in?
  Conklin:	They cleaned out all the military, and there was no sign ... Of course, the people stayed on there with the lighthouse. The lighthouse people stayed on, on the island.
  Conklin:	Were you in contact with them afterwards?
  Conklin:	Oh, yes.
  Conklin:	And what did they say about the change?
  Conklin: [00:24:00]	I didn't get a chance to say anything about it to the lighthouse family that stayed there, except one time when I asked her if it was much different, she says, "Oh, it isn't near as nice over here as it was. We miss the people that were here." And that was shortly after it changed over, and I guess they were isolated, more or less.
  [00:24:30]	And of course, there weren't families at first, and when the federal prison people took it over, there weren't families there at first. And they asked to be transferred out of there, because they were not too happy.
  Conklin:	And what were their names?
  Conklin:	Oh, what was the name of that last one? I forgot now. I'm never any good at names.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Who's that?
  Conklin:	The lighthouse, the ones that stayed there. The round-faced man, always looked so much younger than he was.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't [inaudible 00:24:44] that man's name.
  Conklin:	Oh. I've forgotten the name. I could look it up.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I can see him out there, but I couldn't tell you the name.
  Conklin:	Do you have any photographs? Do you have any photograph collections?
  Conklin:	I don't know whether I have any of Alcatraz or not.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't think I have any of Alcatraz.
  Conklin:	I had some, but ...
  Conklin:	Do you have any friends that you lived on the island with, that you know have photographs?
  [00:25:00] Conklin:	I don't know whether or not ... The family that probably would have the most photographs, they're all gone now, but two of the girls. The Thorntons, and their sons, and one daughter are gone, they're all dead.
  	And the youngest daughter lives ... Where did Bruce live, in Hayward?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't know.
  [00:25:30] Conklin:	And I've forgotten where Mary Jane lives. I could get it through ...
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Anita lives over there someplace.
  Conklin:	Anita lives in Daly City.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, they moved over there now, huh?
  Conklin:	Anita [Kingsberg 00:25:40].
  Conklin:	Yeah, I'll have to get these addresses from you later. That's good.
  Conklin:	But I have a sister who probably has an address book that she still might have around. Because she and Anita Thornton went to school together. They were very good friends.
  Speaker:	Was this your sister who lived on the island?
  Conklin:	Yes, that's the one that was married to them, and then, they were over in an apartment in the city for a while, and then they moved into one of the apartments in that building. It was called the guard building.
  Conklin:	Yeah, it became known as Building 64 [crosstalk 00:25:48].
  Conklin:	And it was residence for single barracks.
  Conklin:	Lots of apartments.
  Conklin: [00:26:00]	And then, there were only two apartments in that [inaudible 00:26:04]. The rest of it was a guard company.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The top floor was all the apartments when the guard come-
  Conklin:	The rest of it was the guard company.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Big squadron.
  [00:26:30] Conklin:	Did they use the rifle range much for practice, the one above the sally port?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	[crosstalk 00:26:37] There was no rifle range there.
  Conklin:	No rifle range.
  Conklin:	And was there a chapel above the sally port?
  Conklin:	There was a chapel, but I've forgotten where it was.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The chapel was up in the main jail.
  Conklin:	In prison, I think. In the prison building.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That is the building of the room that I was trying to explain was recreation about. That was on the second floor, in the front of the building. That was the chapel.
  [00:27:00] Conklin:	Okay. That's, the latest use for that was the movie hall, and the last church was held up there.
  Speaker:	Did the military commanders have a background in prison life, or prison management, or whatever?
  Conklin:	Oh, no. It was run like a regular Army-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They didn't even have a background in MPs.
  Speaker:	I was wondering if that could possibly explain the difference in feel between the military [crosstalk 00:27:33] and the prison [crosstalk 00:27:35].
  [00:27:30] Conklin:	It might be. It was just like, if you didn't see the prison building up there, and see those walls, you would think you were in the presidio, or Fort McDowell, or any over by Sausalito, or [crosstalk 00:27:53]
  [00:28:00] Conklin:	It was just a regular military base. [crosstalk 00:28:07]
  Conklin:	Like a small outpost. Or, caretaking setup. They didn't have some things you would have on a regular post, like the rifle range, and things of that sort. They didn't have. But otherwise, they used to have a caretaking post, when it was a base post, or a fort that's just running with a skeleton crew, just to keep it up, and keep it from going to pieces.
  Speaker:	Being a detention center, were there any sort of restrictions, where you asked or advised not to have guns in your house? Or, was alcohol, not to have there?
  Conklin:	No.
  Speaker:	Nothing? They didn't suggest anything at all?
  [00:28:30] Conklin:	There was no restrictions. You were just as free to live your life, except for some things that are military, which on any military post, there's some things you have to perform. But there was no restrictions on whether you could serve drinks or not, or anything of the sort. Of course, you couldn't have a gun.
  [00:29:00] Speaker:	Was that due to military, or due to the prison?
  Conklin:	On the military post, you could have your hunting, but, you have to register it. And in some posts, you can't have it.
  Speaker:	You didn't feel any restrictions because of Alcatraz?
  Conklin:	As a matter of fact, I think we had a gun, but it was put away. But you couldn't have guns out.
  Conklin:	It was put away in your house where you couldn't get at it? Or, they all kept it in a central cache on the island?
  Conklin:	No, they didn't keep it.
  Conklin:	You had it in your house, you just didn't have it out?
  Conklin:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
  [00:29:30] Conklin:	Okay. Did the commandant, or the person that ran the whole island, did he socialize with everybody there evenly?
  Conklin:	That was one thing that was nicer in one way about it, it was a very small post, where there was not much difference in rank, especially among the families, the women and the children.
  [00:30:00]	And even the commanding officers were not too rigidly conscious of rank, most of them. We just had one that was, and yet, he turned out to be not as bad they said he was going to be.
  Speaker:	You mentioned they had numbers across their backs. Were they referred to ever as numbers? Did they use-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They didn't have a name. Prisoner had a number, not a name.
  Speaker:	So, you'd refer to someone as "84," use his last two digits, or whatever?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Fellow who used to be a good friend of mine, his number was 15775.
  [00:30:30] Speaker:	He'd use his full number?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
  Conklin:	When you talked to him, you'd go, "Oh, 15775, would you come over here?"
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Sure.
  Conklin:	"How've you been?" Or something.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	Who was that?
  Conklin:	15775.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't remember his name now. He was stationed down in Monterey. He sold a blanket.
  Conklin:	Yeah. I know him.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	He [inaudible 00:30:59] property. He sold a blanket.
  [00:31:00] Conklin:	And that's how he ended up on Alcatraz?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	[crosstalk 00:31:03] been on Alcatraz six months.
  Conklin:	How long?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Six months.
  Conklin:	Six months for selling a blanket.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah, for $4.00.
  Conklin:	My God. I bet he regretted that.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	He sold an OD shirt for $2.00.
  Conklin:	Red, do you remember anything about these big stories about the Birdman of Alcatraz? That was when it was in civilian hands before the Army took it over.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	When was it?
  [00:31:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	After the [inaudible 00:31:31] was over.
  Conklin:	[crosstalk 00:31:31] That was way up in the '50s.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That was in the '40s, wasn't it?
  Conklin:	[crosstalk 00:31:34] He was transferred to a federal prison, wasn't he?
  Speaker:	In Leavenworth.
  Conklin:	He was transferred from Leavenworth.
  Conklin:	Yeah, that's long after.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That's long after the Army was there.
  Conklin:	Were there any famous prisoners while you were there? Anyone whose names we might know? No one did anything real exciting get there, huh?
  [00:32:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	Not that I know of. [crosstalk 00:31:59] Mostly military. Well, that's all it was, all military.
  Conklin:	Breaking military law, or disobeying. In those days, if you went AWOL, you got punishment.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	AWOL, you very seldom went to Alcatraz, unless you committed some other crime along with it.
  Conklin:	No, but, I'm saying, they did punish, they punished AWOL then. It was a small crime, they really disciplined them. That's what it was.
  [00:32:30] Speaker:	Did they have to commit a crime of some note to get to Alcatraz? Well, your friend sold the blanket. Was it generally reserved, though, for high-risk or escape artists, or anything of this?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, not necessarily. They escaped from the guard house much easier than they could from Alcatraz.
  Speaker:	Yeah. Did you have any pet names for the rock, or the island, or Alcatraz?
  Conklin:	It was "The Rock."
  [00:33:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	It was "The Rock." They called it. You'd hear somebody talking about The Rock, well, Alcatraz. That's the only place I ever knew of.
  Conklin:	Everybody who's ever lived there knows. You see people, or you're around people that have ever served in that area, and we'd say, "Where were you at such a time?" "I was on The Rock." That's all you need to say.
  Speaker:	How about Angel Island? Just, what, Fort McDougall, was it?
  Conklin:	Fort McDowell.
  Speaker:	Fort McDowell.
  [00:33:30] Conklin:	It was an immigration station, too, in the old days.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Now it's been closed.
  Speaker:	Did it have any nicknames, or ...
  Conklin:	I don't know.
  Speaker:	Was The Rock the wrong side of the Bay, as far as they were concerned?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	It was between us and San Francisco.
  Conklin:	There was just a barrier between Fort McDowell and San Francisco. You had to get around the rock to get there.
  Speaker: [00:34:00]	I grew up in Oakland. People in the city are always making fun of you for being from Oakland. I didn't know if there was any sort of stigma being from The Rock.
  Conklin:	Most of them didn't want to be stationed there. Now, for the men who had families, that was a nice station, in Alcatraz. But the single men, it wasn't so good, because there wasn't too much for them to do. But otherwise, there wasn't ...
  Speaker:	Life wasn't any easier rougher than on Angel Island, on Fort Mason?
  Conklin:	It was easier. It was more pleasant.
  [00:34:30] Conklin:	On Alcatraz?
  Conklin:	Oh, yes, it was closer to San Francisco.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Much easier.
  Conklin: [00:35:00]	It was closer to San Francisco, you could get back and forth easier. You didn't have to conform so rigidly to boat schedules, because it was only a 10-minute run across there with the launch, and they had a launch master and the crew, so that they were always available, and they were very obliging, and it was perfectly all right. You wouldn't have to leave wherever you were to get down at a certain time.
  	Now, on Angel Island, you had to, otherwise you couldn't get over till the next day. And there were a lot of things that were nice. Of course, there were more things on Angel Island, it was a bigger place. But it still was much more convenient and pleasant on Alcatraz.
  Conklin:	Could you have your own vehicle on Angel Island? Did you have your own family car?
  Conklin:	No. Well, some of the people had vehicles over there.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Not on the island.
  [00:35:30] Conklin:	Not on Angel Island. I saw them over there when I used to go over there to watch you play basketball.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Only government vehicles were allowed.
  Conklin:	Oh, it was government vehicles. Okay.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No private vehicles.
  Speaker:	Could you take a bicycle over there, say, [crosstalk 00:35:42]?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yeah.
  Speaker:	Did you have any prisoners working in the Infirmary with you? Were any trustees, or ...
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I had one for about three months.
  Speaker:	I mean, you have someone, where they have the ability, they could have worked there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes. As long as you was in there with them.
  [00:36:00] Speaker:	Did they have to refer to the military personnel as "Sir," or, "Mister So-and-So," or a title? Or, just typical military protocol?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Just, officers, "Yes, sir, no, sir." Call them their rank.
  Conklin:	It was really just plain courtesy.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Courtesy.
  Conklin:	"Yes, sir, no, sir." And every time they say, "Corporal, do this," instead of "So-and-so-"
  Mr. Dudgeon:	And the enlisted men was, Sir, Corporal.
  [00:36:30] Conklin:	During meal times, how did that work? How long were they given to eat? Was it timed?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Usually one hour.
  Conklin:	An hour for a meal. Were they served at separate tables, or was it cafeteria-style?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Well, more or less cafeteria-style in the Army.
  Conklin:	You walk through, pick up your food and your tray.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	You walk through, pick up the food and the tray, and go to a table and sit down.
  Conklin:	And go sit down. Did they ever make a count of the silverware before and after a meal?
  [00:37:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes, quite often.
  Conklin:	Were people searched coming out of the dining room if there was any silverware missing? What was the routine for that?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	If they found a piece missing, they'd try to search them as they were going back, they'd leave the dining area. And they'd lock all the cells and search individuals, separate bed in their cell.
  Speaker:	If one spoon were missing, would they go through this and search the entire prison?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yeah.
  [00:37:30] Speaker:	They wouldn't let anything ...
  Conklin:	And what would happen to the person that took the spoon?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They seldom did anything. Maybe they took some of his freedom, what little he had.
  Conklin:	Take some of the privileges away, and recreation, that kind of thing.
  Conklin:	And they had recreation on the weekends?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yeah.
  Conklin:	Only?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I think it was, about, I don't know in the afternoon. Wasn't it in the evenings?
  [00:38:00] Conklin:	I don't know. I don't remember.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	After the work period.
  Conklin:	But I know they had some time every day that they weren't working, that they could be free for ...
  Mr. Dudgeon:	The ones that were out working, they didn't need any recreation.
  Conklin:	I mean, for recreation, just if they wanted to.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Like the ones on KP, and that. They was inside all day. They went out.
  Conklin:	But a lot of the [crosstalk 00:38:14], were not weekends.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	[crosstalk 00:38:14] quarter of an hour in the afternoon, and Saturday afternoons. Sundays.
  [00:38:30] Conklin:	A lot of the programs were not on weekends. They were on a weeknight. When they used to bring them over to San Francisco, they were on weekends always.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They never did bring much over. That was very seldom.
  Conklin:	Did the foghorns on the island bother you? Or, were there any while you were there?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Not as much on the island as they did over at San Francisco.
  Conklin:	They don't sound as loud, we were in back of them.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	You could hear it pointed down there on the marina.
  Conklin:	You would hear them played on the mainland.
  [00:39:00] Mr. Dudgeon:	You could hear them plainer down on that marina, than you can over on the island. Right there behind it.
  Conklin:	That's interesting.
  Speaker:	What did the recreation consist of? It was a fenced-in area with tiers down on the building side, is that right? Would you just sit there?
  Conklin:	[crosstalk 00:39:14] Well, that was the exercise yard. You have to get out, play catch-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	[crosstalk 00:39:14] Put them out in the exercise yard.
  Speaker:	But they could play catch? Did they have softballs, or basketball?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yeah.
  Speaker:	They had a basketball court they could play?
  Conklin:	And they had, what did they play, tennis?
  [00:39:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	No, they didn't have enough room, hardly. They divided it up that way. But they put a [crosstalk 00:39:32]
  Conklin:	But [crosstalk 00:39:33] was gone to the Library.
  Conklin:	Where was the Library located inside the prison?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Part of the chapel.
  Conklin:	Which is upstairs?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Upstairs.
  Conklin:	Oh. All right, that's neat.
  Speaker:	They could take books back to their room, or to a cell? Could they just read there in the ...
  Mr. Dudgeon:	If they had some reason to take them to their cell, or, they thought they wouldn't tear them up.
  Speaker:	If they just wanted to finish reading the book, they could, if they had a good record?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  [00:40:00] Speaker:	Do you know what they do for meals on Angel Island? Of course, they'd have lunch out there, wouldn't they, when they're working in the garden?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	They'd take their meals with them.
  Speaker:	One-pound box lunches, or a meal bucket?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Take a big ...
  Conklin:	Field kitchen. When they had trips in the fields.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Field kitchen. Take a big stew pot, have everything cooked up in that, take it over to them. They wouldn't take it with them when they went over.
  Speaker:	Oh, they'd send it over-
  [00:40:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	The boat would come back, and bring their meals over to them.
  Speaker:	A mess hall built on Angel Island, since they'd be eating there every day?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, yes. They [crosstalk 00:40:36] down, on the first floor, in the vegetable-
  Conklin:	In the vegetable room?
  Speaker:	Beneath the pigeons?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	And then, they had a shed where they washed vegetables, and sorted them-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Lettuce down on the lower floor.
  Conklin:	That was the vegetable shed, and the loft had the pigeons in it.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Two upper stories were them.
  [00:41:00] Conklin:	You had your children while you were on the island?
  Conklin:	We didn't have any. We had a couple nephews staying on us a while.
  Speaker:	What did they do for fun? Just go rock climbing, get stuck on a cliff? Or poke around?
  Conklin:	What?
  Speaker:	What did the children do for entertainment? Just what kids will do when they're [crosstalk 00:41:22]
  Conklin:	Just amuse themselves. [crosstalk 00:41:22]
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Just like kids anyplace.
  Conklin:	No special little funny games, because it was Alcatraz?
  Conklin:	Oh, no.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  [00:41:30] Conklin:	And of course, they went to school on the launch.
  Conklin:	What school in San Francisco did they go to?
  Conklin:	In the marina, for a while, didn't they had a school up on Angel Island?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	No, I guess they didn't. The school-
  Mr. Dudgeon:	the school that they went to is right up there on ...
  Conklin:	Right on the coast of Fort Mason.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Ben Franklin. Or Mount Franklin.
  Conklin:	Yeah, it's still there. I forgot the name.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Post. Ben Post.
  [00:42:00] Conklin:	And then, the high school was over there a little farther in the marina. Not the marina high school, but it was in the marina district. Right close to Fort Mason.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That was the high school that ...
  Conklin: [00:42:30]	That was the high school that Junior went to, when he first started. At the edge of the marina district there, where you have the big park, and playgrounds, and then, the school, and then, Fort Mason.
  	I'm taking over your place, eh?
  Speaker 5:	No. I came to listen.
  Conklin:	And there was a school down closer to Van Ness, and then, there's a high school right at the edge of Chestnut.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, you mean that school right there at Fort Mason?
  Conklin:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
  Mr. Dudgeon:	You mean the school at the edge of Fort Mason?
  Conklin:	Yeah. West of Fort Mason. That's where the old gas company used to be [crosstalk 00:43:00]
  Mr. Dudgeon:	There's no school down there.
  [00:43:00] Conklin:	No, it's up on Chestnut.
  Conklin:	Did the school kids have a stigma because they were from Alcatraz? Do you know if they were treated differently at school?
  Conklin:	I don't think so.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	Was it a novelty to live on Alcatraz? Were they giving them any ...
  Conklin:	No, it was just another military post, and there was three or four of them around the area. There was Fort Scott, Fort Mason.
  [00:43:30] Conklin:	There was no hierarchy of military posts when all the military personnel got together? There was no ...
  Conklin:	No.
  Mr. Dudgeon:	No.
  Conklin:	No big deal, wherever you ended up in your station?
  	What were your feelings when you were assigned to Alcatraz? Or, did you ask to be sent?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I don't remember whether I asked to be sent over there or not.
  Conklin:	Were you excited about moving?
  Mr. Dudgeon: [00:44:00]	I think I wanted to get off of Fort McDowell, because I didn't think I was getting along very good with the commanding officer. I thought it would be a good idea to transfer.
  Conklin:	To transfer. Were you excited about moving?
  Conklin:	I never [crosstalk 00:44:04] on his island. We weren't married when he was on Angel Island.
  Conklin:	Oh, so ... You got married to him while he was stationed on Alcatraz?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Yeah.
  Conklin:	Oh. And did you ever think of getting married on the island?
  Conklin:	No.
  Conklin:	Not a chance.
  Conklin:	Just admit it?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	I hadn't thought about that.
  Conklin:	I had an apartment over in the marina.
  [00:44:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	Will you ask about ... If Selina's had a chance to go over on the island?
  Conklin:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
  Mr. Dudgeon:	When they had a special event on the island that included the prisoners, they usually let their sweeties come over, like a prize fight, or something like that.
  [00:45:00]	They'd have at least four of them every year. Most of them are grudge fights.
  Conklin:	Grudge fights?
  Conklin:	They had boxing over there, so they let [crosstalk 00:45:06]
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Among the prisoners.
  Conklin:	They'd let them fight it out legally?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	That's the only way they'd let them fight. They wouldn't let them fight unless it was a grudge fight, fight in the ring.
  Conklin:	Wow.
  Speaker:	Where was the boxing ring? Upstairs?
  [00:45:30] Mr. Dudgeon:	No, they built a ring out on the parade route. Between the bluff, and where that new building is out there, just above the horn.
  Conklin:	Yeah, the fog horn.
  Speaker:	That's just done once a year, you said? It wasn't a common legal occurrence, to have a boxing match?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Oh, no. That was special.
  Speaker:	It's an actual prize fight, though? They'd have some sort of award, or, just the glory of being the winner?
  Mr. Dudgeon:	Just the glory of being the winner. And the last one they had-
  	(silence)

 

General McDowell, Prisoner transport mentioned by Dr. Fahrenson.

Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 44392

---

"One day I was an intern at Alameda County Hospital, the next day I’m wearing a uniform at [inaudible], and the next day I was a First Lieutenant in the Medical Corp. at Alcatraz." -Gail Fahrenson

 

• Gail Fahrenson

  
  

  Interview of Dr. Gail Fahrenson about his time as a 1st Lieutenant surgeon with the Medical Corp on Alcatraz from 1918 to 1919

  Date created:

  01/12/2024

  Audio Transcript

  Fehrensen:      Dr. Gail Fehrensen.

  Interviewer:    Dr. Fehrensen was on Alcatraz . . . you were a surgeon then, were you sir?  You were a surgeon on Alcatraz in 1918?

  Fehrensen:      1918 and 1919.

  Interviewer:    18 to 19.

  Fehrensen:      One day I was an intern at Alameda County Hospital, the next day I bought a uniform at [inaudible] Brothers, and the next day I was a First Lieutenant in the Medical Corps. at Alcatraz. Complete training.

  Interviewer:    Ok. This is your first trip back to Alcatraz, January of ’76.

  Fehrensen:      My first trip back.

  Interviewer:    Since you left. A number of years.

  Fehrensen:      The night of the Armistice I was sitting on this lawn looking at all the cannons and the fireworks and the whole business. It was a beautiful sight.

  Interviewer:    Yeah, we’re presently in the front of the island in front of the foghorn. The Armistice was celebrated at the Presidio.

  Fehrensen:      Yes, all over the city.

  Interview:       Do you remember the Panama Exhibition [Panama-Pacific International Exposition]?

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    In San Francisco.

  Fehrensen:      In ‘15

  Interviewer:    Yes.

  Fehrensen:      I wasn’t here. I was in medical school then.

  Interviewer:    How about anything else. What’s your immediate feeling when you first got here today?

  Fehrensen:      Very bad. Very, very sad to look at this. It was a beautiful thing. The island was beautiful. The prison was beautiful, and everything was good, but now it just looks like a disaster.

  Interviewer:    Kind of torn up.

  Fehrensen:      Exactly.

  Interviewer:    Not anywhere near representative of what it was…

  Fehrensen:      Oh no. It was a beautiful . . . beautifully kept.

  Interviewer:    And you were also the mess officer, you say? [crosstalk]

  Fehrensen:      Officers’ Mess, I was the Mess Officer and the Sanitary Officer.

  Interviewer:    Would that be for the military prison or would that be the staff?

  Fehrensen:      I was only for the Officer’s Mess.

  Interviewer:    I see.

  Fehrensen:      No, no. The prison had their own mess hall and the hospital had it’s own mess hall, all cooks and everything, and the officers had their . . . of course they had to pay for their men.

  Interviewer:    And did the Commanding Officer of Alcatraz . . .

  Fehrensen:      The Commanding Officer was Colonel Joseph Gurrard, a retired Calvary Colonel. And in charge of the post hospital was Major Yemans. He was a Philippine scout and an old line officer. He had Major Allen, the psychiatrist and several lieutenants, Lieutenant Jenkins and Lieutenant Neskel.

  Interviewer:    You remember all these well, don’t you?

  Fehrensen:      But I can’t remember where I put my glasses. [laughing]

  The Colonel had two daughters who were married to colonels who were overseas, and he had a very lovely wife and they entertained a lot. Of course, we single officers escorted his daughters around. It was very very nice. Very gracious wife and he was a very southern, marvelous colonel, very much interested in the welfare of the prisoners. He reviewed all of every prisoner in here.  He took a personal interest in them… Came back on General Mc Dowell.

  Interviewer:    General Mc Dowell?

  Fehrensen:      Uh huh.

  Interviewer:    That would be the boat that was turned over to the Bureau of Prisons when the military turned the island over.

  Fehrensen:      That’s the same boat. That boat would bring the laundry. You see we did all the laundry for all the forts in the Bay, all the shoe repairs, all the repair of furniture and all the dry cleaning was done here at Alcatraz. 

  Interviewer:    Where on the island was the military laundry? Was that on the north end?

  Fehrensen:      Is that west?

  Interviewer:    West is this direction.

  Fehrensen:      No, out toward the Golden Gate. That big building over there.

  Interviewer:    Ok. The big one on the far end.

  Fehrensen:      Yes. And that was the charge of Lieutenant Hawkenson. And Hawkenson was a very . . . he was a marvelous officer. He was in it for teaching them. They came out here couldn’t make shoe repairs, furniture, everything.

  Interviewer:    What kind of medical facilities did Alcatraz have in the years you were here?

  Fehrensen:      The hospital is located on the back of the prison, facing the Golden Gate, about 20 beds, small operating room, laboratory, and was staffed by corpsmen, no nurses.  But they were trained corpsmen and we did minor surgery, but we took the major surgery over to Letterman.

  Interviewer:    We’ll be in the hospital here in a little while.

  Fehrensen:      How many steps is it up to the hospital?

  Interviewer:    How many steps? I sure don’t know.

  Fehrensen:      84. I think it was 84.

  Interviewer:    I don’t believe there’s that many. We’ll count.

  Fehrensen:      I’m gonna count. I’ll tell you this because I wrote that…. I did that thing for the museum.

  Interviewer:    What else strikes you right now that you’re back?

  Fehrensen:      The disaster strikes me. Horrible now. It was a beautiful place.

  Interviewer:    What is the most memorable happening or occurrence that happed while you were here?

  Fehrensen:      Well I’ll tell you, when I came down, I took my Hospital Corps. and had litter drill on the parade ground. And as I said over there, I’m sure I would have marched them into the Bay, except for my Sergeant [inaudible], he was very tactful, but I didn’t know anything.  I almost did march them into the bay. That was…I remember that. I’d only been here a week. 

  Interviewer:    How about escape attempts?  Were there any . . .

  Fehrensen:      I could tell you a nice story about that. Now each officer was allowed a pass man.  And that pass man was let out of the jail at 5 and locked up again at 9. And down underneath this quarter here was a pass room. Those people stayed… They were trustees in the pass room. You’d just ring a bell, they came up, made the beds, cleaned everything up, they were housekeepers. And at that time it was flu.  They had the flu. And my pass man took my uniform and all my money and put on a flu mask. I was a lieutenant, and they had another lieutenant… Major Neskel, and they put on his uniform and they put on their flu mask and they went down to the dock and the officer of the day saluted them and said, “come back again gentlemen.” And they got off at Fort Mason and they recaptured them at Modesto hitchhiking. 

  Interviewer:    Hmm, That was what year?

  Fehrensen:      1918.  That was when we had the flu. Everybody wore a flu mask. The record of that… The newspaper clipping is at the Museum. I gave it to him. You can get copies of it if you want it. 

  Interviewer:    Yeah, we’ll probably . . .

  Fehrensen:      They’re pretty well torn up, but they’re there. And it gives the names… Our names and the pass men’s names.

  Interviewer:    As far as Alcatraz, were there any cannons still on the island in the years you . . .

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    None whatsoever?

  Fehrensen:      No.  Cannons?

  Interviewer:    Cannons.  At all.

  Fehrensen:      No. 

  Interviewer:    Any field pieces?

  Fehrensen:      No.  Nothing.

  Interviewer:    We have rumors, or have heard that there were at least one cannon up till the beginning of World War II here on the island . . .

  Fehrensen:      Not what I saw.

  Interviewer:    None whatsoever?

  Fehrensen:      If it was, I didn’t see it.

  Interviewer:    How about some of the cannon emplacements? Were they still intact when you were here? Some of them?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t remember.

  Interviewer:    Maybe on the west . . . galleries, batteries?

  Fehrensen:      What I was going to ask you. Solitary confinement here was hewn out of the solid rock. Those still here?

  Interviewer:    Where would they be located? Underneath the cell houses?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah. Cause I had to inspect those prisoners every day. They had great big old Mexican keys. Big old iron keys to open the doors. 

  Interviewer:    They were under the cell house themselves?

  Fehrensen:      Yes. They must be there.

  Interviewer:    Ok, we’ll be down there.

  Fehrensen:      Cause they were right out of the rock and they were damp and kind of moldy.

  Interviewer:    Ok, we’re going to be over there in a minute . . .

  Fehrensen:      Cause I inspected those prisoners every day. Cause I got all the, you know… first lieutenant’s jobs [laughing].

  [faint voice in background] Were there any deaths when you were here?

  Interviewer:    Did any men die while you were here? Any deaths whatsoever?

  Fehrensen:      No… We saw to that, they died at Letterman. [laughing]

  Interviewer:    You got them over there before they died then.

  Fehrensen:      Yes. They had the flu you know, and when they got sick enough to really need oxygen and everything like…took them there…

  Interviewer:    How about the size of the military prison?

  Fehrensen:      I can’t remember what it was. As I recall there were about 250 prisoners. We had one German prisoner who was a Second Lieutenant. His name was Shurig, S-H-U-R-I-G, only foreign prisoner we had. He was just under house arrest, but he was a German.

  Interviewer:    Was he the Consular General from San Francisco?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t know what he was… No, he was too young for that. But he was a young second lieutenant in the German army. I just remember his name. Shurig. He wasn’t in a cell. He was in house arrest.

  Interviewer:    Were there any prisoners of war on the island?

  Fehrensen:      No, we had prisoners, murderers, rapes and robberies from all over the world. But all our own military.

  Interviewer:    How about Angel Island? What role did Alcatraz play in relation to Angel Island?

  Fehrensen:      Angel Island. This was just a stopping place for General Mc Dowell to go over to Angel Island and people who were . . . the new recruits were brought on the General Mc Dowell – that was the only transportation there was. And then they went over there, and they were getting their shots and getting inducted into the Army.

  Interviewer:    I see.

  Fehrensen:      Over at Angel Island. The General Mc Dowell would stop here, let off laundry and stuff and then they would take these soldiers, these young kids over to Angel Island. I never was on Angel Island.

  Interviewer:    Never been on Angel Island?

  Fehrensen:      I could have gone over I just didn’t.

  Interviewer:    Maybe we should head on up top.

  Fehrensen:      Whatever you say.

  Tape stopped and started

  Fehrensen:      I used to make short arm inspections.

  Interviewer:    Every time coming off leave did they [inaudible]?

  Fehrensen:      They either reported in or if they didn’t, if they had gonorrhea of course we court martialed them. And I was on the court martial  A lot of prisoners were sent here, not court martialed. They just sent them here to be tried. The medical officers were free. We were on lots of those court marshals. I gave them the manual over there. I gave them all my stuff, the manuals, the court martials, everything. [crosstalk] He has all that stuff.

  Interviewer:     I see.

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:     How was water brought to the island when you were there?

  Fehrensen:      There was no water or fresh water on the island. The water boat, the El Aguador, brought the water and the tank was on the rear of the – facing the Golden Gate on top of the hospital.

  Interviewer:    How much water a week was used? Do you have any idea?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t have any idea. It’s a big tank.

  Interviewer:    Do you know how many trips would be made?

  Fehrensen:      I think they came once a week.

  Interviewer:    Once a week. How was it pumped up to the top of the cell house?

  Fehrensen:      They just had pumps.

  Interviewer:    Just the old pumps, huh?

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Interviewer:    Were there any fires ever while you were here?

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    How about the sanitary facilities? Did they use saltwater for flushing?

  Fehrensen:      Yes. Ruined the plumbing all the time.

  Interviewer:    Yeah, ruined the plumbing.

  Fehrensen:      Another interesting article that I put in this other one over there, we had three mules and carts to haul the things around the island you know, and that was just for island use. I was making a sanitary inspection and we had some caves as you know along the edge. I noticed that one cave was . . . had a lot of manure in it. So I had them dump it into the ocean, into the Bay. The next day I had a rather unpleasant session with the Colonel. He was going to plant mushrooms.

  Interviewer:    [laughing] And he had been putting it there, huh?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, he had them put it there. [laughing]

  [faint voice in background] In a cave with all this manure.

  Fehrensen:       It’s just one of those things.

  Interviewer:    The cave is still down there. Maybe we’ll be able to see it

  Fehrensen:      There’s a cave down there. At Fort Mason we had a three-wheeled motorcycle with one person to ride. That was the only transportation we had on shore that belonged to the island, which was very nice.

  Interviewer:    The Warden’s house you say was here . . .

  Fehrensen:      Colonel’s house.

  Interviewer:    . . . was the Commanding Officer’s house.

  Fehrensen:      Yes.  Colonel Gurrard. He was a full Colonel.

  Interviewer:    Was the house pretty elegant?

  Fehrensen:      It was elegant. They entertained beautifully.

  Interviewer:    Do you remember how many rooms were in the house?

  Fehrensen:      No, I don’t remember how many rooms, but they had the old Southern etiquette. An Army etiquette. They were very strict Army people and gracious. And they had a little card tray where everybody who came . . . every other day you had to leave a card. Of course, we entertained his daughters and they were lovely people. It was a very nice family.  I gave them over to the museum – some menus - Christmas and Thanksgiving. Pictures attached to them. The prison menu and the hospital menu and the officers’ menu. They have them over there.

  Interviewer:    How about the food out here? Was it pretty good?

  Fehrensen:      Excellent, excellent. The prisoners were fed well. We had unscheduled sanitary inspection of the kitchens about once a week. Well prepared. The officers had good food. Of course, they paid for their own. We used at that time China beef.  Beef that was raised in China. Frozen and shipped over here. We ate what the officer’s called China beef. I kept the filets of course for the officers. We had good food, well prepared. I thought it was a very well-run place. 

  Interviewer:    I bet the skyline of San Francisco here has changed quite a bit from when you were here.

  Fehrensen:      Yes, all these high-rise things. When I sat there at Armistice night, of course I was on duty. The Colonel and the Major, everyone else was gone. I sat there and had a beautiful view. Skyrockets, balloons, everything.

  Interviewer:    How was the activity at Fort Mason during the War? 

  Fehrensen:      It was very busy.

  Interviewer:    Real busy.

  Fehrensen:      Fort Mason was a very very busy place. I was over at the Fort Mason Officers’ Club with Colonel, he’s a full colonel. . . he took us there for dinner one night. He got me into this mess.

  Interviewer:    The Officers’ Club at Fort Mason is really beautiful.

  Fehrensen:      That view is something. We had a beautiful night too.

  Interviewer:    Of course, Fort Point. What was Fort Point doing while you were, see Fort Point under the arch there . . . what purposes did it serve?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t know. Fort Point seemed to be a mixture of everything. What did they do at Fort Point?

  Interview:       At one time they thought about making it a prison too, but they changed their mind and it became a whole lot of things.

  Fehrensen:      Barry and Baker and Cronkhite.

  Interviewer:    That’s over across the bay from there, that’s now ours also. Were you over there?

  Fehrensen:      No I was wasn’t over there, but we used to do their laundry. We did the laundry for all the [crosstalk]. We did it for all the different forts. Laundry, shoe repair, furniture, cleaning, everything, by prisoners

  Interviewer:    For the coastal defense groups.

  Interviewer:    Would you like to go on in now?

  Fehrensen:      Sure. I can tell you other things. We had two kinds of prisoners. One was a numbered prisoner. Little black suits, who were going to get a dishonorable discharge. The others were the prisoners who wore a uniform with a red band, drilled half a day, worked half a day, and could be restored to duty and get an honorable discharge.

  Interviewer:    I see. 

  Fehrensen:      I think that’s an important little item…They were very solicitous of the prisoners.  They didn’t baby them, but they were very solicitous. Discipline was strict but fair. Because I saw them you see. But those two kinds of prisoners I think were important, but they were very…

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    Well I don’t know whether it’s torn down or…

  Fehrensen:      It wouldn’t be worth it.

  Interviewer:    Yeah. They’re still estimating what it’s going to cost to do anything with this if they decide.

  Fehrensen:      Beautiful place for a prison, I mean really.

  Interviewer:    Well, it’s a natural, yes.

  Fehrensen:      A prison’s a prison.

  Interviewer:    Yeah. It did its job well I guess. Now the visiting area see would be in here. How about visits for the men that were here while you were here. Were they allowed visitors?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, they allowed visitors. I think it was visitors through . . . not contact. They just went through a [crosstalk] holding room just like this. Yeah, there were visitors.

  Interviewer:    Through a mesh. Okay we’ll enter the cell house now. [crosstalk]

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:     Now this is it. Probably what’s different now is that you have the catwalk from here across to the cells with the spiral stairs at the end.

  Fehrensen:      Yep.

  Interviewer:    The bars look like this.

  Fehrensen:      Exactly. That’s the way it was.

  Interviewer:    These are the cells that were here then when you were here. The Bureau of Prisons added these. They changed the bars.  hat’s all they did. All they did was change the bars. 

  Fehrensen:      I wouldn’t have known that.

  Unidentified:  So this part …

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:     Now those cells, you mentioned that were “down under.” Maybe we can go look at those now.

  Tape stopped and started

  Fehrensen:      I don’t remember. They don’t have those Spanish keys. Those great big old iron keys.

  Interviewer:    Ok now, under the cell house where these privies are. These then were walled in and used as . . . were the men chained into here?

  Fehrensen:      No, they had big iron gates. Big iron doors.

  Interviewer:    Iron doors and then the old-style locks.

  Fehrensen:      Old style locks with long iron keys, which was quite remarkable in 1918. That’s a long time ago.

  Interviewer:    Now how about…Do you remember anything about the rest of these rooms then under the cell house? Were these used for anything?

  Fehrensen:      No. No I didn’t know about that.

  Interviewer:    Ok now see now evidently these were at one time also used as detention cells. There’s an entrance to the other side of the building [inaudible]. . .

  Fehrensen:      [crosstalk]See I had no occasion to go into those, but this I did. 

  Interviewer:    Well that’s interesting, they were used, and of course, these may be what it looked a little bit more like when you were here then. The bunks were swung on chains, is that right?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah.

  Interviewer:    Rather than with the legs underneath. Always one man in a cell? Never any more? [crosstalk]

  Fehrensen:      [crosstalk] One man a cell. Never any more.

  Interviewer:    Every cell had a toilet?

  Fehrensen:      Every cell had a toilet. There was no lid in there of course.

  Interviewer:    No lid, of course, right. But a sink also?

  Fehrensen:      Yep. Had a little sink and a toilet.

  Interviewer:    What personal items would the military prisoners be allowed in the cell with them at all times?

  Fehrensen:      They were allowed a comb and a toothbrush. But they check those toothbrushes and combs very carefully because they made knives out of them.

  Interviewer:    How about shaving? How was that handled, do you know?

  Fehrensen:      That was all handled…They were issued, when they shaved. They were issued in the shower room.

  Interviewer:    In the shower room?

  Fehrensen:      They had a shower room.

  Interviewer:    Down the other way.

  Fehrensen:      Down that way. They issued and then you check it in and check it out. Every blade everything [inaudible].

  Interviewer:    Everything was counted, huh?

  Fehrensen:      Every single one.

  Interviewer:    Yes. They would use straight razors?

  Fehrensen:      Yep, yep.

  Interviewer:    The strop and the whole thing. Good. [laughing]

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    Two men weren’t allowed to shave at a time.

  Fehrensen:      No. One at a time.

  Interviewer:    One at a time. And is this every day? They would shower and shave?

  Fehrensen:      No, about every other day or so. I don’t know . . . maybe once a week. I don’t know. I’ve forgotten that. You wouldn’t really want to go to jail. 

  Interviewer:    This room here is what . . . you wouldn’t impress the people most when they enter here. Certainly it’s a mess. When you were here this place was probably immaculately clean.

  Fehrensen:      Oh it was immaculate. It shined. Wax

  Interviewer:    Floors, yeah. Everything was freshly painted.

  Fehrensen:      All the time. They had prisoners painting all the time. They painted year-round.

  Interviewer:    Yep. Something like working on the bridges.

  Fehrensen:      Exactly.

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    We get a lot of school groups out here and they seem very impressed. 

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:     How about the church services?

  Fehrensen:      They had the, all the services. This colonel, this captain Ossewaarde was a Protestant, but I think the priests came from the City.

  Interviewer:    The Presidio?

  Fehrensen:      Because the only permanent preacher was the Chaplain was Ossewaarde and Laizure. Those were the only permanent ones here. They lived here.

  Interviewer:    Were the services well attended?

  Fehrensen:      Yes. Oh yes. And the school was well attended. You’d be surprised that they went to school . . . got their diplomas.

  Interviewer:    How about entertainment for the inmates? Were they allowed to say something like movies?

  Fehrensen:      They had movies.

  Interviewer:    Do you remember any of the movies that might have been shown?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t know, don’t remember. But they did. They had… I think they were mostly stills.

  Interviewer:    Oh. 

  Fehrensen:      What do you call those movies? Lantern slides mostly. It was mostly lantern slides. They played… Where’s the bull pen here?

  Interviewer:    Oh it’s out back, we can walk through it.

  Fehrensen:      They had recreation there for the rest of the guards.

  Interviewer:    What kind of things would go on in the recreation area?

  Fehrensen:      They played baseball.

  Interviewer:    How about if somebody hit a home run over the fence?

  Fehrensen:      They’d sure like to chase it. [laughing] We had two prisoners got off of here on rafts while I was here. Two. I can’t tell you their names. But they never did find them. They went out the [Golden] Gate.

  Interviewer:    So they collected the driftwood and off they went.

  Fehrensen:      They went out the [Golden] Gate apparently cause they never were heard of again. The only two successful ones were those…

  Interviewer:    The guys who got your uniform. You don’t know of any instance then where a man as military prisoner successfully swam to the mainland.

  Fehrensen:      No, they never did. That’s what they said. No one ever… Not when I was here, and no one ever had, but these two guys, these two prisoners, they made this little raft, apparently went out the Gate because they never did show. 

  Interviewer:    Do you remember any instances of suicides or...

  Fehrensen:      No. We didn’t have any.

  Interviewer:    None whatsoever?

  Fehrensen:      Nope.

  Interviewer:    Do you know how long the longest man served here? The average length of stay?

  Fehrensen:      No. It wasn’t a long stay because the idea was this was a Disciplinary Barracks. The idea was to get them back in the service. Of course, if they had a federal offense, like a robbing a post office in the Philippines, things like that. We had prisoners like that, then they didn’t want them in the Army. They’d want to get them out.  Dishonorable. But the idea was to rehabilitate those prisoners. And the Colonel was very exacting on that. Very kind, but severe. No monkey business you know.

  Interviewer:    Anything else strike you, now that you’re inside the cell house. This here’s what we fixed up.

  Fehrensen:      Looks like the little sinks. 

  Interviewer:    Ok this looks like what it would have looked like when this was a Federal prison. When it first opened. Maybe if we go back here a step you could help me out and tell me if this is fairly close to what it would have looked like as a military prison cell. We’re fixing it up and this is the way it looks the cell’s been painted with the white, with the green outlines of various areas, and then of course the bunk would be slung on the wall with these hooks here, and the sink isn’t in this one, but let’s see, here we go. Here’s a sink right here, in this cell here. The only thing then missing you think is, besides being dirty is the bed slung on the wall?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah. This is the way it looked.

  Interviewer:    How about with only one shelf at the rear of the cell or any shelves? See the one shelf?

  Fehrensen:      I think they had just one shelf.

  Interviewer:    Just the one. Just like you see there. 

  Fehrensen:      You had to have this thing, so nobody could conceal anything.

  Interviewer:    I see.

  Fehrensen:      It was a jail.

  Interviewer:    Then this cell possibly here is exactly an untouched the way it was when you were here except the beds are gone.

  Fehrensen:      Exactly. It sure looks that way.

  Interviewer:    Outlined in green. Were they all the same?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah. 

  Interviewer:    White with the green outline of the utilities. 

  Fehrensen:      It had to be so you could see everything. Sergeants would come out here and they could just see everything. And they’d go by all the time you know.

  Interviewer:    Were there instances of lots of weapons and contraband.

  Fehrensen:      Oh yes, they had to check every... The dining room knives and things, and of course those prisoners worked and did the dishes. There were no dishwashers and things like that. They did the dishes and a lot of then in there. Everything was very carefully checked…[inaudible]…I think those were there, weren’t they?

  Interviewer:    These bars were added later. They removed an iron bar. They added these bars and you originally just had the windows as bars. So they just added a layer of bars.

  Fehrensen:      But you see, if you got mad at somebody and threw them over you this rail, you could get killed.

  Interviewer:    Did that happen?

  Fehrensen:      It had happened, but not from the top but. A lot of cells there. That’s the way they looked.

  Interviewer:    That’s it. They of course didn’t have the table and bench there on the wall. Those were added later. A number of changes have taken place here.

  Fehrensen:      But this used to be waxed and slick just like…

  Interviewer:    Is that maybe the first thing that struck you when you first walked in here the fact that’s it’s a mess?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah. It’s just a disaster.

  Interviewer:    That’s what most people think. [inaudible] write this out.

  Fehrensen:      Almost makes me emotional.

  Interviewer:    People even guys that served time here. That’s one of the things they comment on when they entered here.  What a mess it is.

  Fehrensen:      Because this was a beautiful jail. It was.

  Interviewer:    As far as jails go. How about this stairwell? Do you remember this, where this might have gone? Maybe possibly down to the shower room?

  Fehrensen:      It could have been, but I don’t recall.

  Interviewer:    When it was a Federal prison, the shower room is below us. Would you like me to operate these doors for you?

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    Do you remember any of the aisle ways in the prisons having certain names?

  Fehrensen:      No.  I didn’t know.

  Interviewer:    In other words this . . . in Federal prison very often the inmates would refer to this area as “Broadway” being the main . . . And of course your mess hall would be through the door here?

  Fehrensen:      That’s right.

  Interviewer:    How about rations. Did they get full rations?

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Interviewer:    They didn’t get cut on anything at all?

  Fehrensen:      No, no. They were well fed. In fact there weren’t much complaints on food here.

  Interviewer:    That’s unusual.

  Fehrensen:      Course as I say, the beef was China beef. They raised it for the hides over there and then they sent the beef over here for us to eat.

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    Who did the preparation of the food? Cooks also?

  Fehrensen:      All Army.

  Interviewer:    How about the prisoners, though? Did they work in the kitchen?

  Fehrensen:      Oh yes, they all worked. 

  Interviewer:    They all worked in the kitchen. They were supervised then by non-prisoners?

  Interviewer:    Yeah, they had a big load of…We had a lot of old sergeants…Old time sergeants in charge of everything. They were the backbone of the Army. They were the backbone of the prison too.

  Interviewer:    Everybody ate at one time?

  Fehrensen:      Yes. They all ate at one time. 

  Interviewer:    Was it just… everybody in the room at one time or . . .

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    Kind of like a constant. While they were coming in, someone leaving, and some were leaving . . .

  Fehrensen:      . . . leaving, some were coming in.

  Interviewer:    It was an ongoing affair.

  Fehrensen:      They didn’t fool around in here at all. Of course they had to check for silverware and things you know.

  Interviewer:    Do you remember how long a man was given to eat while he was here?

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    Any specific length of time?

  Fehrensen:      No, I’ve forgotten. What’s that there? We were there. Of course the prison had their own kitchen you understand. You know, our kitchen was something.  We had our own Mess Officer and . . . but the food was good. The officers . . . everybody ate well. The soldiers ate well. I don’t know how many companies were here, but I remember that Hawkenson, Lieutenant Hawkenson had a company, and then Lieutenant Neskel had a company, and Lieutenant Bob Slaughter had a company.

  Interviewer:    And the company would be what?

  Fehrensen:      I think that’s 100 men. [Fehrensen speaking to someone other than interviewer] “How many in a company?” [faint voice replies] “125” They had at least three companies and they were the guards in here and they supervised...

  Interviewer:    How about the length of time in these cells? What would be your estimate, on say a 24-hour period of time. How many hours on average an inmate would be in a cell by himself?

  Fehrensen:      I wouldn’t say because they worked, you see. They worked in the laundry and the shoe department and they worked on the grounds planting flowers . . .

  Interviewer:    Would you say maybe fourteen hours?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t think they were out more than that. I think they didn’t get out till . . . they got out of the cells . . . I’ll tell you what time they got out of the cells. They got out of prison at 7 and then they got . . . cause I had sick call at 8. If they thought they had a sprained back or thumb, if they hit their hand with a hammer on purpose or whatever, so I found that they were going eating breakfast and they had sick call. And I’d have a line of maybe fifty men. So I said this is not going to go. So now you come up without breakfast and I got about ten.

  Interviewer:    Just cut it right down huh.

  Fehrensen:      Because I’d say, “you can work.”  Well then you had to work maybe on the rock . . . they had a rock pile out here. Made you work for four hours without any breakfast. No coffee, no nothing. You know prisoners are very shrewd. Right away they figured things out.

  Interviewer:    Yeah. They figured things out fast don’t they. Yeah.

  Fehrensen:      Fifty, 75 people, then suddenly it’s ten or twelve. Cause they wouldn’t . . . if I said you’re certified them to work, then they had no breakfast. So then, quick, oh look everything around a prison. You can’t breathe around a prison without everybody knowing it quick.

  Interviewer:    Now was your hospital in this building?

  Fehrensen:      It was at the back end at the top.

  Interviewer:    Upstairs?

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Interviewer:    Would you like to go up there now?

  Fehrensen:      Take a look and see how many stairs it is.

  Interviewer:    Ok.

  Fehrensen:      I think I’ve got phlebitis in my leg from going up and down those stairs. Cause I was doing it a lot.

  Interviewer:    Do you remember wooden sailing vessels in the bay?

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    You don’t remember them? We’ll go up the stairs. You remember the general layout of this area? We’re at the entrance to the hospital now, and of course straight ahead this would be the dental office with his lab around the corner. 

  Fehrensen:      Now this is the back end of the hospital.

  Interviewer:    Yes, it is. This is just the entrance.

  Fehrensen:      [inaudible] the kitchen.

  Interviewer:    Where was the kitchen . . . the food would be brought up from the regular mess hall below to the rear.

  Fehrensen:      But the major’s office is down at the other end.

  Interviewer:    Yes sir.

  Fehrensen:      And the operating room . . .

  Interviewer:    [inaudible] federal prison. Was this the operating room right here?

  Fehrensen:      Yes. And where’s the laboratory? We had a little lab…

  Interviewer:    Next door. Next room down.

  Fehrensen:      Minor surgery.

  Interviewer:    Just minor surgery mostly here?

  Fehrensen:      A lot of circumcisions.

  Interviewer:     [inaudible]

  Fehrensen:      You know why? The guys wanted to be in the hospital two or three days. And hemorrhoids. [inaudible] They’d hit their hand with a hammer to get to go to the hospital.

  Interviewer:    I see.

  Fehrensen:      Every trick there was they used. 

  Interviewer:    They’d even hit their finger with a hammer?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah. When I came here, I was sure that every prisoner had been framed. You know, they all talked to me. When I left I knew they all belonged here.

  Interviewer:    Ok this would have been the lab and the pharmacy while this was a federal prison.  Is this pretty much the same?

  Fehrensen:      The same one. It’s the same. I’m sure. There’s the drawers and everything.

  Interviewer:    Same drawers?

  Fehrensen:      No, those are not new. 

  Interviewer:    Yeah, same drawers. And then the pharmacist/doctor would be through here, or his assistant. Controlled drugs locked up in here.

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Interviewer:    Did you have controlled drugs on the island?

  Fehrensen:      Oh yeah, sure. We had everything. Morphine, cocaine, Novocain. There’s another interested thing comes to mind when I was here. I examined every prisoner, every single prisoner on this island physically.  I gave everybody a physical no matter whether they needed it or not. And I found several with tuberculosis. Active. 

  Interviewer:    Is this something that they picked up overseas?

  Fehrensen:      I picked it up. I mean, I picked it up because I started…and I sent over a letter we have no way to take care of a tuberculosis patient. So the major was very happy about that. But here they were, associating with them when they were active TB.

  Interviewer:    Did they have an X-ray unit here?

  Fehrensen:      That’s a very interesting little thing. When I came here there was no X-ray. So I ordered an X-ray, and they’re small, and they brought it over.

  Interviewer:    Oh you got one?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah.  We requisitioned one.  And I came here . . . I was off for the day or something when it came, and the major didn’t know anything about X-ray, and he plugged it in to the wall. 

  Interviewer:    Blew it up?

  Fehrensen:      [Makes blowing up sound] Blew it up. He didn’t put it on the… in the machine see.

  Interviewer:    Did he get in trouble?

  Fehrensen:      No, no he was a major. [laughing]

  Interviewer:    So they don’t get in trouble huh?

  Fehrensen:      So I requisitioned another tube. See we had the gas tube…So then I set it up then because I had seen it in my internship.

  Interviewer:    Well here’s our X-ray.

  Fehrensen:      We had one, but we didn’t have a table and all that. We just took a picture of [inaudible].

  Interviewer:    This would be kind of the treatment room [inaudible] Did you have a psychiatric section here?

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Interviewer:    Or place for observing . . .

  Fehrensen:      Major Frederick Allen, the psychiatrist.

  Interviewer:    Out of Letterman?

  Fehrensen:      No, he was a resident here. He was on our staff. 

  Interviewer:    Oh he was. 

  Fehrensen:      If you’ll notice on my…they have my discharge. He signed my discharge that day.

  Interviewer:    Oh, He was on duty.

  Fehrensen:      Yes, Major Frederick Allen. He was a psychiatrist.

  Interviewer:    I see.

  Fehrensen:      He was a permanent. And then the chaplains did a lot of counseling. A lot of the men had been married and had children and they needed counseling with a wiser . . . family troubles. And this major, this Captain Ossewaarde and here were very, very good. The men were good because they were so conscientious. It seemed like the prison help here [inaudible]. [background voices and laughter]

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    How was it they would treat psychiatric patients when you were here?

  Fehrensen:      Well they didn’t have all this [inaudible]

  Interviewer:    Ok. What would they do? Put them under observation for a while? 

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, they would put them under observation.

  Interviewer:    And then if more care was needed, they would transfer them?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, they’d transfer to Letterman, everything went to Letterman.

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    This would be the main hospital ward?

  Fehrensen:      [inaudible]

  Interviewer:    Capacity would be what?

  Fehrensen:      I think it was about 20 beds.

  Interviewer:    Twenty beds.

  Fehrensen:      I kept exact.  I never did put it down, about 20 beds.

  Interviewer:    Would then the chief of… the major officer, the major…

  Fehrensen:      The major’s office in the back over to the left here.

  Interviewer:    That’s all the way to the back then.

  Fehrensen:      Just over to the left here.[inaudible] coming from the major’s office.

  Interviewer:    Right through the door. This far corner.

  Fehrensen:      This is Major Yeman’s. [talking in background] General office here.

  Interviewer:    General office off to the side. That was your office.

  Fehrensen:      [inaudible]

  Interviewer:    Did this entire building have the steam radiators in it when you were here for heat?

  Fehrensen:      I think so.

  Interviewer:    That was it. These then would probably be the same steam radiators that were here?

  Fehrensen:      I think so.

  Interviewer:    Course it’s kind of a mess now, isn’t it? Must apologize for all this. Do you remember it much bigger?

  Fehrensen:      To me in my mind it was bigger.

  Interviewer:    Yeah. This is it. Those are the outside walls so it’s probably – the dimensions are the same, they just added and subtracted walls for . . . probably also lowered the ceiling on you. That’s a false ceiling.

   [background talking]

  Tape stopped and started

  Interviewer:    The Secretary of War came out here?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, Baker. His name was Baker.

  Interviewer:    General inspection was it?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, Newton Baker. But I, being a… not a worshiper of brass, I didn’t see him.

  Interviewer:     You didn’t see him. 

  Tape stopped and started

  … impressions of Leavenworth. You’re talking about the military prison?

  Now did they use anything like this, at all? Just mostly the downstairs area. Do you have any idea of how many men at the time might have been down there?

  Fehrensen:      Oh no.  I don’t know.

  Interviewer:    Maybe what, 2, 3 or . . . .

  Fehrensen:      I think it was about that. Long time.

  Interviewer:    But they were used downstairs. Now they had nothing then like this.

  Fehrensen:      They had to be examined every day.

  Interviewer:    Ok, how about a library privileges?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, they had library books. Yeah, that was under Captain Ossewaarde again, the chaplain.

  Interviewer:    Did the men do a lot of reading?

  Fehrensen:      Yes. They did a lot of reading.

  Interviewer:    Along with correspondence courses?

  Fehrensen:      Correspondence courses, they took that. Then they had… As I remember they had teachers come over from the City.

  Interviewer:    Was that during the day in lieu of work or would this studying be done in addition to working hours?

  Fehrensen:      On the numbered prisoners, no. But on the ones that were going to be restored to duty, yes. 

  Interviewer:    So it was done in lieu of work?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah. They were half soldiers. They either drilled or worked. Or else went to school. They did everything to restore them. If they were going to be a numbered prisoner, they didn’t want them. 

  Interviewer:    They were due for discharge?

  Fehrensen:      Dishonorable.

  Interviewer:    Dishonorable. … it’s changed a bit. You call it the bull pen. Why… do you happen to know how it got the name bull pen?

  Fehrensen:      That’s the name it always was.

  Interviewer:    Bull pen, huh? 

  Fehrensen:      Exercise yard actually. 

  Interviewer:    How much time a day might a person be in the exercise yard?

  Fehrensen:      Oh…Several hours. They had ball games and all that sort of thing.

  Interviewer:    How about horseshoes?

  Fehrensen:      No, no horseshoes. Baseball.

  Interviewer:    Most did a lot of walking?

  Fehrensen:      Lots of walking. Walking and talking round in groups.

  Interviewer:    Did they have a good view of the Bay Area from bull pen?

  Fehrensen:      No there was a high wall there.

  Interviewer:    But on their way in, could they see the Bay Area?

  Fehrensen:      Oh yes, they could see.

  Interviewer:    They didn’t like having the view and not being able to go there?

  Fehrensen:      That’s right. And I could see why it was.

  Interviewer:    Do you remember the gardens on Alcatraz?

  Fehrensen:      The gardens?

  Interviewer:    The gardens.

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    The flowers and the trees.

  Fehrensen:      No.

  Interviewer:    You don’t remember any of those?

  Fehrensen:      The colonel had a…They had gardens alright, cause they had flowers on their tables, and they were raised here. They had gardeners.

  Interviewer:    Yeah. Now those were prisoners?

  Fehrensen:      Prisoners, yes. Those were very favorable detail to get on those you know.

  Interviewer:     Those were nice.

  Fehrensen:      Any time you get out of prison, you get out of your cell at 5 and go back at 9, you have to get the dishes washed and everything else, marvelous thing. I think the colonel had probably five trustees, for housekeeping and entertaining. They entertained a lot.

  Interviewer:    Did a lot of visiting dignitaries come here rather than go to the Presidio?

  Fehrensen:      Yes, yes lots. I don’t know rather than the Presidio, but there were any number of people came up. Generals, and cabinet members.

  Interviewer:    Well is this pretty much how you remember it? It was mostly dirt, I guess, when you were here.

  Fehrensen:      It was dirt.

  Interviewer:    And these concrete bleachers – were they here?

  Fehrensen:      I think those were there. But I wouldn’t swear to that. But I think they were. But this wasn’t, this was dirt.

  Interviewer:    How about the fence atop the wall. Was there a fence up on top of the wall or was it a just a wall?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t think the fence was there, but the wall was here.

  Interviewer:    Just the wall.

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Interviewer:    How about the little towers, the little cubbyholes in the corners, were there…?

  Fehrensen:      Oh sure.

  Interviewer:    Were there . . .

  Fehrensen:      Oh yes,

  Interviewer:    Those were there also?

  Fehrensen:       They were guards in all these. They watched this bull pen every second. It was under surveillance all the time.

  Interviewer:     Little groups to talk?

  Fehrensen:       Yes, just groups, just talk about…they had little groups like people have sororities. Some people like some people, and some people didn’t like…

  Interviewer:     This brings me up to a point maybe I should have asked inside. What was the method of assigning cells? Was there a process, any priorities for selections of cells, or assigning cells?

  Fehrensen:       I don’t know. I don’t know because you see I didn’t have anything to do with that. 

  Interviewer:    Did they segregate?

  Fehrensen:      No, I don’t think so. Oh you mean, the homosexuals from the other?

  Interviewer:    Well, yes. Homosexuals or maybe a racial segregation?

  Fehrensen:      No there was no racial segregation.

  Interviewer:    How about a segregation as to where a man would work? What detail he might be in.

  Fehrensen:      He just had to be lucky… And pleasant and willing. If you were willing, you could get into the library. I mean you could get into anything. 

  Interviewer:    How about cells in the cell house. Do you know of any cells that would have been more preferred than others? Maybe upstairs versus downstairs?

  Fehrensen:      Yes. They liked to be upstairs.

  Interviewer:    For any particular reason?

  Fehrensen:       No I don’t know. They liked… less prison or something.

  Interviewer:     More privacy maybe?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, yeah.

  Interviewer:    Now, do you remember this view?

  Fehrensen:       Oh sure, sure.

  Interviewer:    And, is this your laundry building to the right?

  Fehrensen:       Yeah, yeah. That’s it, shops and laundry.

  Interviewer:     Looks pretty much like it was when you were here?

  Fehrensen:       Exactly like it was. [background talking]

  Interviewer:     How about ‘Little Alcatraz’? Do you remember a rock shortly off… just a little ways offshore? See the waves just…

  Fehrensen:       I see it there, but I don’t remember it, but now I remember I was able to walk all around this island.

  Interviewer:     There was a catwalk around the island?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah.

  Interviewer:     Oh, tell me about the walkway that went around the island.

  Fehrensen:       There was, there was. It was an up and down, but you could go walk all around the island. It was a very narrow walkway, but you were able to walk it. 

  Interviewer:     It was built into the cliffs too, wasn’t it?

  Fehrensen:       Yeah, yeah.

  Interviewer:    And that was open to anybody?  Family or . . .

  Fehrensen:       It was open to all the island, all the island personnel. There was no restrictions to walk, you could walk wherever you wanted to.

  Interviewer:     I see.

  Fehrensen:       Where were you going to go? But a prisoner, no.

  Tape stopped and started

  Fehrensen:      You see they couldn’t come within two hundred yards of the island.

  Interviewer:    The boats couldn’t?

  Fehrensen:       I saw them shoot at a boat once.

  Interviewer:     Oh they did? If a boat came too close they would shoot at them? Did they just shoot at them, or near them to scare them?

  Fehrensen:       Just near them to scare them. But even medical officer’s carry .45s. And what a dangerous thing that was.

  Interviewer:     Yeah. [laughter in background]

  Fehrensen:       Mine was hanging near to the floor. They could have stolen, or hit me over the head with it.

  Interviewer:    How about the walkway though? Do you remember walking on it?

  Fehrensen:      Oh I have done it many times.

  Interviewer:    Was it wood mostly?

  Fehrensen:       No, no. It was just a little path. Just a path.

  Interviewer:    Well some of it was suspended on the cliffs though wasn’t it?

  Fehrensen:       Yes, you had some on the cliffs, but it was just more or less a very crude path.

  Interviewer:    Was it quite scenic to walk?

  Fehrensen:      Oh yes. You could see the whole thing. See everything. 

  Interviewer:    Do you know when it was built?

  Fehrensen:      I have no idea. But it was here when I came here.

  Interviewer:    I see. 

  Fehrensen:      I didn’t pay much attention.

  Interviewer:    The garden duty was a good deal. Good job wasn’t it.

  Fehrensen:       All those trustee jobs were good jobs. Those were desirable. But you had to earn them by being…observing the rules. 

  Voice:             [Someone shouts out] By being good.

  Fehrensen:      Yeah if you observed the rules, you got along at Alcatraz very nicely… In the Army. But if you didn’t you were in trouble. When I say our Sergeants were tough.

  Interviewer:    Anything else you can remember offhand?

  Fehrensen:       I don’t, I think I’ve told you everything I know.

  Interviewer:     Just a whole lot of stuff huh.

  Fehrensen:       I think I’ve told you all I know. Glad to get it on record…like those things I took over to the museum. It’s good to get rid of them, before they get away.

  Interviewer:    Yeah, we appreciate that because they would be lost.

  Fehrensen:       I had a war bond, a war bond circular from the old world war Liberty bonds, when they would try to get you to buy bonds at that time. And I gave him that. And I gave you a picture of the Hospital Corps., the whole Hospital Corps. with all these officers in front.

  Interviewer:    From the island?

  Fehrensen:       From the island. It was taken right up here on the island, on the other side. And I gave him this big picture. I’m in it of course. The whole Hospital Corps, and all the officers. And I gave him that picture.

  Interviewer:    How many were on staff in the hospital?

  Fehrensen:       We had about… five medical officers and then we had, I would say maybe thirty.

  Interviewer:    Thirty on staff?

  Fehrensen:       Yeah, course we had no nurses you know. You would call them paramedics now.

  Interviewer:    Yeah.

  Fehrensen:       They gave my anesthetics. I taught them to give an anesthetic and all that kind of thing.

  Interviewer:     Did you do fishing while you were here on the island?

  Fehrensen:       No.

  Interviewer:     None whatsoever huh?

  Fehrensen:       No.

  Interviewer:     A lot of seals though and stuff on the island?

  Fehrensen:       Yes, yes.

  Interviewer:    Lots of things to do.

  Fehrensen:      There were all these sick calls and...

  Interviewer:    How many people would be in the hospital at a given time?

  Fehrensen:      Oh, maybe ten or fifteen.

  Interviewer:     Ten or fifteen, hmm.

  Fehrensen:       Then we’d ship them out you see. We’d take them over to Letterman. You know if they needed major surgery, any surgery that I… we couldn’t do it here. But I had a sergeant and he’d been a prisoner. Colored boy, Black boy, [Charles A.] Stroud, and I got him restored to duty and he was just marvelous. He was a marvelous… He found his niche. He was out of step with the Army. When I got him in there and I got him restored to duty, made a good anesthetist out of him. One of my most dependable corpsmen. And the pictures that they have over there. He’s going to give me a copy. I can get you a copy. Well, you’re not going to be here. 

  Interviewer:    Well we’ll get some copies for our files.

  Fehrensen:       It shows the whole Hospital Corps…a very nice picture. 

  Interviewer:    You’re Eighty-one, huh?

  Fehrensen:      Yep. 

  Interviewer:    How old were you here then when you came here?

  Fehrensen:      Twenty-three.

  Interviewer:    You were twenty-three. 

  Fehrensen:      Just finished my internship.

  Interviewer:    Where did you go from here when you left?

  Fehrensen:       I wanted to get out of the Army.

  [Side 1 ends] 

  [Side 2 begins]          

  Fehrensen:      [inaudible] they built steel ships. And it was a wartime ship deal, so I got the night surgeon job over there and then I got released from the Army.

  Interviewer:    So you left Alcatraz to go there.

  Fehrensen:      Yes. I stayed there about three months. Then I went back to Southern California to private practice.

  Interviewer:    Is that where you’re originally from? Southern California?

  Fehrensen:      I graduated USC in 1917.

  Interviewer:    1917, good.

  Fehrensen:      Good? [laughing] And so then I had my internship, practiced for seven years and then I went over to L.A. County Hospital and became a specialist in obstetrics, as a resident.

  Interviewer:    And you’re now retired?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, you bet I am. [talking in background] Surgeons like to have a left-hander’s system. Like a left hand on the dummy, there’s a right hand on the dummy.  That’s the truth. [laughing]

  Interviewer:    This is what we call the sally port to the fort. Were there doors here when you came here? Iron cross doors. Something like the entrance to Fort Point?

  Fehrensen:      I don’t think so.

  Interviewer:    Ok. Cause sometime after the turn of the century evidently these doors disappeared. And actually the first prison in the Civil War was this room over here.

  Fehrensen:      No I don’t think so.

  Interviewer:    Some Confederate sympathizers evidently.

  Fehrensen:      They used those mules with those carts back and forth.

  Interviewer:    And then here you see the pulleys to the top, would be a drawbridge. [tape squeal] I can’t remember any of this area being intact then?

  Fehrensen:      No I don’t know. I didn’t come down except to get on the boat. This Major Ray was not my favorite person and I wasn’t… We weren’t… medical corps wasn’t his. But he was very nice to us, but we’d just go down to get on the boat. But this launch was very nice. The Alcatraz.

  Interviewer:    Oh…Right, The Alcatraz was the launch.

  Fehrensen:      Yeah. [inaudible]

  Interviewer:    [inaudible] exhibit area we’re going to go in.

  Fehrensen:      [inaudible]

  Interviewer:    These fellas are numbered prisons here then?

  Fehrensen:      Yes.

  Interviewer:    And that means that these fellows . . .

  Fehrensen:      Dishonorable discharge.

  Interviewer:    Dishonorable discharge. And notice the campaign hat on this fellow. He’s a military officer then or . . .

  Fehrensen:      May have been.

  Interviewer:    He’s a guard of some sort.

  Fehrensen:      [inaudible]. He must have been a guard then.

  Interviewer:    Yes. He’s got the campaign hat.

  Fehrensen:      The colonel insisted on campaign hats.

  Interviewer:    Campaign hats. 

  Fehrensen:      The cavalry type.

  Interviewer:    This picture here shows the Officers’ Club where we were just looking at and the buildings to the rear towards the powerhouse area, pretty much …

  Fehrensen:      Exactly the same.

  Interviewer:    And this then is probably just taking . . . You do remember the boxing matches?  How often would they have the boxing matches?

  Fehrensen:      Oh once a month.

  Interviewer:    Once a month.

  Fehrensen:      Yeah.

  Interviewer:    How many fights would there be on the card?

  Fehrensen:      Very short rounds and about ten bouts in an evening.

  Interviewer:    Ten bouts in an evening?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, everybody wanted to be a boxer you know.

  Interviewer:    Was it the inmates against inmates?

  Fehrensen:      Yeah, yeah. And they’d also have people come over the to island from the athletic club in San Francisco. Boy’s Club.

  Interviewer:    Where would the people be coming from to the fights? Would it be from the Presidio or would it be just for Alcatraz people?

  Fehrensen:      Only Alcatraz. They didn’t allow . . .

  Interviewer:    People on the island…

  Fehrensen:      Visitors here were not welcome like this.

  Interviewer:    I see.

  Fehrensen:      You had to have a pass.

  Interviewer:    You do remember the fights?

  Fehrensen:      Oh yes. Sure.

  Interviewer:    Were they refereed fairly?

  Fehrensen:      Oh yeah. Everything was fair. Everything on this rock was fair. You’d be amazed how fair everything was. From the colonel down. When I say the colonel was interested in the prisoners, he interviewed every single prisoner on this island.  Every one. And he instigated me to make physicals on every single one like I told you. Where I discovered that TB.

  Interviewer:    Doctor, thank you so much.

  Fehrensen:      Delighted to come over.

  Interviewer:    Well, you come back again, and I hope it was memorable anyway.

  Fehrensen:      I imagine there will still be some families of some of these people that I have mentioned in San Francisco yet. 

  Interviewer:    Right.

  Fehrensen:      Because, they were all quite San Francisco oriented.

  Interviewer:    We’re picking up a lot of things as we go along here so.

  Fehrensen:      There was a family named Baker that might have some things. They were Spanish. Carmecita Baker, that lived in San Francisco. And they might have some pictures and things that you would want because the major… Major Yemans was very much interested in them see. 

  [Interview Ends]

 

Kids on Alcatraz 1937

Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 40017

---

"There were a lot, and Alcatraz wasn't as glorious." Ray Stewart, in response to the amount of kids on Alcatraz.

 

• Ray Stewart

  
  

  Interview with Ray Stewart who was the son of the Executive Officer of Alcatraz military prison, discusses living on Alcatraz Island from 1930 to 1934

  Date created:

  01/12/2024

  Audio Transcript

  Speaker 1:                        00:02                   Testing, testing one, two.

  Speaker 1:                        00:03                   This is a visit September 4th, 1977, with Ray Stewart on Alcatraz Island. Ray, you lived out here from what years?

  Ray Stewart:                     00:12                   1930 to 34.

  Speaker 1:                        00:15                   34, Your dad, what was his official title out here?

  Ray Stewart:                     00:19                   He was Commander of the prison. I think they call it Executive Officer, the island.

  Ray Stewart:                     00:25                   He ran the prison as far as the inmates and all of the activities and administration aspect of the prison.

  Ray Stewart:                     00:35                   Whereas there was another officer that was commander of the whole island, and the military that were all here.

  Speaker 1:                        00:45                   Officially he wasn't the man in charge, but he was actually the one that did all the running of the island?

  Ray Stewart:                     00:50                   Yeah, he was in charge of the prison, well the discipline aspect of it, and getting them on and off of here.

  Speaker 1:                        01:03                   We're just right here by what we knew as a military chapel.

  Speaker 1:                        01:07                   Do you remember, did you folks attend services out here on the weekend? Were your folks religious at all?

  Ray Stewart:                     01:15                   Not too much here, no, mostly over in San Francisco. I do remember a commissary.

  Speaker 1:                        01:18                   Does this look familiar?

  Ray Stewart:                     01:20                   There was a little store and then there was a bowling alley. I guess that's up ahead.

  Speaker 1:                        01:26                   Yeah, the recreation. What about this? It's what we knew was the old rifle range right next to the chapel.

  Speaker 1:                        01:31                   Do you remember that being used as anything?

  Ray Stewart:                     01:34                   I don't remember that, no. I don't remember as much about that.

  Ray Stewart:                     01:39                   I do remember they had a bus on the island and making this turn here, they always had the back up. They couldn't make the big turn.

  Speaker 1:                        01:49                   Couldn't make the first turn by the recreation hall?

  Ray Stewart:                     01:52                   Yeah. I don't remember much about this.

  Speaker 1:                        01:59                   The military prisoners actually made some of the furniture for the soldiers on the island?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:03                   Yeah, they did some of that.

  Speaker 1:                        02:04                   They were billeted here?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:05                   They had a regular woodworking shop back in the back there. They did the laundry I guess as well.

  Speaker 1:                        02:11                   The military did the laundry?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:14                   For everybody.

  Speaker 1:                        02:15                   The military soldiers here? For all the military?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:16                   The prisoners.

  Speaker 1:                        02:17                   Yeah.

  Ray Stewart:                     02:17                   They ran a laundry here for all of the military around the area.

  Speaker 1:                        02:24                   Army, Navy? All of the various services?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:26                   Yeah, and I think they kept that up later.

  Speaker 1:                        02:28                   Yeah, that was probably the biggest industry that the bureau of prisons got going to in the thirties and forties.

  Speaker 1:                        02:33                   Kind of hard when you think of all the fresh water they had to use. Do you remember how the water was brought over here when you were living here?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:41                   It was barged over.

  Speaker 1:                        02:42                   Barged over?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:42                   No, I don't remember this. I don't recall the boats or anything.

  Speaker 1:                        02:46                   No stories associated with that, that you remember?

  Ray Stewart:                     02:49                   No, but I can remember jumping on that boat, making it by a split second for school. Just like we made it coming over here today.

  Speaker 1:                        02:56                   A close one, huh? You mentioned a bowling alley?

  Ray Stewart:                     03:01                   This is where they had the bowling alley.

  Speaker 1:                        03:05                   Yeah, we've seen pictures of it. It was a two lane bowling alley down on the bottom.

  Ray Stewart:                     03:10                   And the barber shop.

  Speaker 1:                        03:11                   The barber shop for families and the soldiers that lived out here?

  Ray Stewart:                     03:14                   Yeah.

  Speaker 1:                        03:17                   You mentioned your brother had a birthday party out here once?

  Ray Stewart:                     03:19                   Yeah, they had a prison orchestra. Of course, in those days the prisons were a little different than later.

  Ray Stewart:                     03:25                   A big party, lots of dancing. I think the kids really like that. Come out on the boat, go to a party here and then go back on the boat. [inaudible 00:03:36]

  Speaker 1:                        03:38                   Right, pier four there. What age was your brother then? Do you remember?

  Ray Stewart:                     03:41                   About 14.

  Speaker 1:                        03:42                   14.

  Ray Stewart:                     03:45                   He was a little older than I am.

  Speaker 1:                        03:47                   Were you restricted at all in the areas of the island that you could or could not go to?

  Ray Stewart:                     03:53                   We couldn't wander through the prison as well, but I did manage to get in there a lot with my dad. It was no big deal.

  Ray Stewart:                     04:02                   As I say, even on an escape they sound the horn. We didn't all run into our houses and hide. We actually managed to get free run of the place even then.

  Speaker 1:                        04:19                   Even when they had an escape in progress?

  Ray Stewart:                     04:23                   Right.

  Speaker 1:                        04:23                   There wasn't anything other than the prison itself technically that you were not allowed to go?

  Speaker 1:                        04:26                   Like over here by the power plant, or out by the industries?

  Ray Stewart:                     04:31                   No, that was all. I don't ever remember going into the prison yard. Well, that part.

  Ray Stewart:                     04:40                   We pretty much stayed away from there. All of this, we could. It seemed to me this was the laundry.

  Speaker 1:                        04:49                   Yeah, I think the old laundry is just beyond the power plants.

  Ray Stewart:                     04:51                   In fact, I remember one of those prisoners that escaped was hiding in the laundry.

  Ray Stewart:                     04:57                   We went by looking around, and we wandered right by where he was hiding and didn't even know it until later.

  Speaker 1:                        05:04                   You were how old then and you were searching for?

  Ray Stewart:                     05:06                   Six.

  Speaker 1:                        05:06                   Six? And you and your friends were going out looking for the escaped prisoners?

  Ray Stewart:                     05:10                   Yeah, right.

  Speaker 1:                        05:12                   Did you have much contact with the prisoners? In other words, would you see them working on the dock or over here in the power plant and be able to talk to them?

  Speaker 1:                        05:20                   Or were you pretty much told to stay away from them completely?

  Ray Stewart:                     05:24                   I didn't have much contact with them except the ones that were working in the house.

  Ray Stewart:                     05:28                   We had two of them in the house one time during the day and evening. They were trustees. Actually, that was most of it.

  Speaker 1:                        05:42                   Was there a restriction when it was operating as a military prison for boats coming around?

  Ray Stewart:                     05:47                   You bet.

  Speaker 1:                        05:47                   What was it? Do you remember the limit?

  Ray Stewart:                     05:49                   200 yards or something like that. Maybe more. They really went after them too.

  Speaker 1:                        05:53                   I know they had a guard towers during the civilian prison days. Did they also have guard towers for the military?

  Ray Stewart:                     06:03                   Only up around that yard I think. I don't remember, not these big ones down by the water.

  Speaker 1:                        06:09                   Do you remember what kind of warnings or anything they'd give the ships that came to close?

  Ray Stewart:                     06:18                   They'd have somebody on a loudspeaker.

  Speaker 1:                        06:21                   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     06:21                   Go out there and yell them off. I don't know, it seemed to me that it was not beyond their possibility of firing something at them. [inaudible 00:06:39]

  Speaker 1:                        06:38                   More like kind of a warning shot across the bow? Don't go?

  Ray Stewart:                     06:41                   Across the bow, right.

  Speaker 1:                        06:42                   Yeah. You mentioned an old laundry, could that have been just leaving the power plant? We know there was a building right in here.

  Ray Stewart:                     06:51                   The laundry was right in here somewhere.

  Speaker 1:                        06:52                   What would that be? Southeast of the model shop on the corner?

  Ray Stewart:                     07:01                   That was the model shop, right.

  Ray Stewart:                     07:01                   Yeah, I remember the laundry in here. I guess later they had the [inaudible 00:07:04].

  Speaker 3:                        07:03                   What did they do in the model shop?

  Speaker 1:                        07:07                   My understanding was it was various industries for the ... During the military days we're not real sure.

  Speaker 1:                        07:14                   Ray, do you know what they did? What the industries were during the military days?

  Ray Stewart:                     07:19                   Well, it was a lot of things for the self-sufficiency of the place. I know they went over to Angel Island, which has suddenly disappeared on us.

  Speaker 1:                        07:27                   Right.

  Ray Stewart:                     07:27                   They had a garden over there.

  Speaker 1:                        07:30                   A lot of your fresh vegetables came from Angel Island?

  Ray Stewart:                     07:35                   Yeah, my parents got a bed set. I have it myself right now. Four posters that were made right here.

  Speaker 1:                        07:43                   Wow.

  Ray Stewart:                     07:44                   I got it with the house.

  Speaker 1:                        07:45                   I like to come over. That'd be neat to come over and photograph it, just to show what type of work that was.

  Ray Stewart:                     07:50                   Sure.

  Speaker 1:                        07:54                   All the laundry that was all done for the families as well was done on the island?

  Ray Stewart:                     07:58                   Yeah, this was a big operation there. I think they probably made furniture for some of the other military areas, clubs and whatnot.

  Ray Stewart:                     08:14                   There were about 600 prisoners. It's hard to believe, the Army had a hundred thousand men in the Army in those days.

  Speaker 1:                        08:18                   Uh-huh (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     08:22                   They had three big military prisons, each was about 600 prisoners. That's a pretty high percentage.

  Speaker 1:                        08:28                   I don't know how anybody figures out the percentage.

  Ray Stewart:                     08:29                   A lot of them were in for desertion and [inaudible 00:08:34].

  Speaker 1:                        08:36                   Do you remember your dad's referring to the prisoners or anything? Saying they were all people to be avoided?

  Speaker 1:                        08:42                   Or a lot of them just weren't that bad or anything? Did you ever get any feeling from him about what types of prisoners there were out here?

  Ray Stewart:                     08:56                   No, except I think he made a point of keeping us kind of away from it. Except for the fellas in the house.

  Ray Stewart:                     09:06                   They turned over quite a bit. Some of them weren't suited. I think they had to be watched quite a bit, because they were just being tried out as trustees after several years locked up. I have two brothers and no sisters.

  Speaker 1:                        09:25                   What kind of work did they do for you in the house? Just normal orderly, cook?

  Ray Stewart:                     09:32                   One was a cook and one was kind of a house boy.

  Speaker 1:                        09:32                   Housekeeper?

  Ray Stewart:                     09:37                   Pass man we called them.

  Speaker 1:                        09:37                   What did they call them?

  Ray Stewart:                     09:37                   Pass man.

  Speaker 1:                        09:38                   I haven't heard that term before.

  Ray Stewart:                     09:42                   I just thought of it. I remember one night I was out in the kitchen, and the cook and the other guy got mad at each other and started up a fight.

  Ray Stewart:                     09:55                   The cook took the bread knife and threw right at him. I was just walking into the kitchen and saw this. I saw it go right into the wall.

  Speaker 1:                        10:01                   Oh no! Did they remain trustees?

  Ray Stewart:                     10:07                   No. They would sit around a lot. I think those prisoners, of course they were close to getting out and that's why they got those jobs. I remember we were very often in communication and cahoots against my dad.

  Ray Stewart:                     10:25                   We'd be out in the kitchen horsing around with them. They'd start to play some kind of game or kid around.

  Speaker 1:                        10:32                   Lets go around.

  Ray Stewart:                     10:35                   Then all of a sudden my dad would walk in, and they'd have to shape up. We'd sometimes warn them when to be careful about it.

  Speaker 1:                        10:44                   How many kids were there on the island when you were here? A number of them were your age so you had playmates?

  Ray Stewart:                     10:49                   Yeah, there were I'd say about 40-50 all together of all ages.

  Speaker 1:                        11:01                   Do you remember approximately how many families there were out here? It's quite a few, that's quite a few kids isn't it?

  Ray Stewart:                     11:07                   25 families.

  Speaker 1:                        11:11                   Turn left in here, Pat. It comes in and goes back out.

  Speaker 1:                        11:22                   That power plant then wasn't here when you were living on the island? They had an older one? Is it the same place?

  Ray Stewart:                     11:28                   It might have been in the same place, but I know that was not anything that elaborate.

  Speaker 1:                        11:33                   I think we can get through here. This is what we call a snitch box down here at the bottom of the recreation yard.

  Speaker 3:                        11:40                   You call it the what?

  Speaker 1:                        11:41                   Snitch box. They used to have a metal detector in here.

  Speaker 3:                        11:44                   A metal detector?

  Speaker 1:                        11:45                   Yeah, similar to the kind on the airlines just to check for metal going back and forth to the workshop area.

  Speaker 3:                        11:57                   Oh they did?

  Ray Stewart:                     11:57                   They used to do that to visitors to the island too, I remember that.

  Speaker 1:                        11:57                   They had metal detectors then when you were here?

  Ray Stewart:                     11:59                   At the dock. No, that was later not during-

  Speaker 1:                        12:03                   Not during your days.

  Ray Stewart:                     12:03                   In the Army days.

  Speaker 1:                        12:06                   Was that the only dock when you were here Ray? Just the one that the boat landed on now?

  Ray Stewart:                     12:10                   Yes.

  Speaker 1:                        12:11                   No supply docks of any other kind that you knew of?

  Ray Stewart:                     12:13                   The steamer would come from Angel Island over here, and then the [inaudible 00:12:21]

  Ray Stewart:                     12:20                   We'd take the boat to school. Most of the kids went to grad school out in Broadway. Pacific Highway.

  Speaker 1:                        12:26                   Oh yeah. They had elementary and then what? Marina Junior High? Or was it going then?

  Ray Stewart:                     12:31                   Grant went to eighth grade and then [inaudible 00:12:33]

  Speaker 1:                        12:32                   Oh, it did?

  Ray Stewart:                     12:32                   That's where my brother went.

  Speaker 1:                        12:39                   Did that make him somewhat of a celebrity then? Being from Alcatraz? Or where there so many of you kids that it didn't-

  Ray Stewart:                     12:44                   There were a lot, and Alcatraz wasn't as glorious.

  Speaker 1:                        12:51                   Yeah. That's quite a view looking at the fog through the Golden Gate. You never made it into the recreation yard then?

  Ray Stewart:                     12:56                   Well, I did once in a while but never really got anywhere.

  Speaker 3:                        13:03                   What sports did they play here?

  Speaker 1:                        13:04                   What was it like when you came in? You said you came in at times with your dad, I guess?

  Speaker 1:                        13:09                   Were you able never come in here and walk around unescorted?

  Ray Stewart:                     13:13                   No, I don't remember doing that.

  Speaker 1:                        13:14                   They had pretty good security then, even?

  Ray Stewart:                     13:15                   I was over here once in 1958 with him when Warden Madigan was here.

  Speaker 3:                        13:17                   This one's made up.

  Speaker 1:                        13:17                   Yeah, this one is made up like the military.

  Ray Stewart:                     13:27                   We knew him, and we went over to the house, and they brought us here. My dad and I.

  Speaker 1:                        13:33                   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     13:35                   He made sure he brought us in while they were all eating dinner. We came in here and looked around a little bit.

  Ray Stewart:                     13:42                   I could tell he didn't want to do that when they were back in their cells.

  Speaker 1:                        13:45                   Definitely, yeah.

  Speaker 1:                        13:50                   When you came in with your dad, you would just walk through with him or something?

  Ray Stewart:                     13:54                   Yeah, on that trip.

  Speaker 1:                        14:00                   I mean when you were here living. What occasions would you get into the cell house?

  Ray Stewart:                     14:11                   Only just to take a look. I don't remember having any tour through this at all while I was living here.

  Speaker 1:                        14:12                   You said you didn't get in here much, but you got upstairs to see the movies?

  Ray Stewart:                     14:22                   Yeah, the movies and sort of a library. It seemed to me it was up in the front of the building here.

  Speaker 1:                        14:28                   Up the stairs?

  Ray Stewart:                     14:28                   Yeah, up facing the lighthouse.

  Speaker 1:                        14:32                   You said those were the same movies that the prisoners saw?

  Ray Stewart:                     14:36                   Yeah, they had their section, and the other people had I think up in the balcony.

  Speaker 1:                        14:41                   You would see it at the same time then that the prisoners were in there.

  Ray Stewart:                     14:44                   Yeah.

  Speaker 1:                        14:45                   The kids will get to come in or the families, it wasn't a separate showing, right?

  Ray Stewart:                     14:48                   Right. In fact, I remember one night I crawled in behind the screen to see what the movie was on the other side with all the prisoners.

  Speaker 1:                        15:00                   Kids will be kids.

  Ray Stewart:                     15:00                   Kids will be kids.

  Speaker 1:                        15:00                   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     15:01                   Here with a bunch of criminals and things.

  Speaker 1:                        15:04                   You mentioned the prize fights?

  Ray Stewart:                     15:10                   Yeah, every month or so they'd have fights. Other military people usually.

  Ray Stewart:                     15:15                   They'd come over here and then other people would come. It wasn't just the prisoners, but it was mostly attended by prisoners.

  Speaker 1:                        15:24                   It was prisoners who were fighting other prisoners? Just military fighting military?

  Ray Stewart:                     15:26                   No. It might have been some. It was mostly people from other military groups. Maybe some of the soldiers.

  Ray Stewart:                     15:26                   It seemed to me there were about a hundred or so military soldiers. They were working as guards. They all went and guarded by the dock.

  Speaker 1:                        15:45                   Right by the dock?

  Ray Stewart:                     15:46                   Yeah.

  Speaker 1:                        15:49                   You got to see the fights?

  Ray Stewart:                     15:51                   Yeah, I saw it.

  Speaker 1:                        15:54                   Yeah?

  Ray Stewart:                     15:55                   Sat there and watched. We mixed that [inaudible 00:15:56].

  Speaker 1:                        16:00                   Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you know if a military prisoner got sick or anything, did they try to take care of him here?

  Speaker 1:                        16:03                   Or would they go over to [inaudible 00:16:04]?

  Ray Stewart:                     16:04                   They took care of them here unless it was serious.

  Speaker 1:                        16:04                   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     16:04                   Apparently there was one or two full-time doctors here then.

  Speaker 1:                        16:04                   Lived on the island?

  Ray Stewart:                     16:04                   Yeah, lived here.

  Speaker 1:                        16:24                   Any stories at all with this area? Do you know kind of little anecdotes you remember about from any of the shell house?

  Ray Stewart:                     16:43                   I can't recall except that time I came with my dad and Warden Madigan.

  Speaker 1:                        16:44                   That was when did you say? 1958?

  Ray Stewart:                     16:45                   58. Right into the entrance when the prisoners were all eating their dinner, looked around. It was pretty quiet here.

  Ray Stewart:                     16:47                   This is the visiting [inaudible 00:16:58].

  Speaker 1:                        16:58                   Yeah.

  Ray Stewart:                     17:03                   I had the feeling just by them that the future of the prison was being questioned.

  Speaker 1:                        17:03                   As early as 1958?

  Ray Stewart:                     17:21                   Yeah, whether they should keep it going with the cost of it. I had the feeling when I was here in '58.

  Ray Stewart:                     17:24                   The prisoners, things were quieting down obviously from the earlier days. The prisoners gave me the impression they were much more in command of this place than you might imagine.

  Ray Stewart:                     17:37                   The guards, they had the freedom to come and go as far as the island, but I just had the feeling that there was a lot of pressure among the guards at that point about being here. It was not a desirable thing anymore.

  Ray Stewart:                     18:05                   The prisoners were the stronger of the lot. That was the impression I got just listening. Instead of talking to them, just listening to the guards and the future of the place and all that. They felt very depressed.

  Ray Stewart:                     18:28                   The world had changed a lot by then I suppose than when this place was opened up and turned over. They had a very low key attitude as opposed to I'm sure 20 years earlier when there was a lot going on with Billy clubs. I didn't see any of that.

  Speaker 1:                        18:49                   Was it a desirable place do you think during the military days for an officer, or a soldier to be out here? Do you know? Do you have a feeling for that?

  Ray Stewart:                     18:57                   Well, I think for the officers it was because the way of life was pretty good.

  Ray Stewart:                     19:02                   You had a lot of free help, and socially a lot of people wanted to come over here to visit.

  Speaker 1:                        19:11                   To live?

  Ray Stewart:                     19:11                   Visit.

  Speaker 1:                        19:12                   To visit? Mm-hmm (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     19:13                   It was something different. My mother had a lot of parties. They'd have entertainers here.

  Ray Stewart:                     19:24                   The prisoners would line up at the house after. Of course, they had no choice when the boat left.

  Speaker 1:                        19:28                   Who was in the throw the party that night then huh?

  Ray Stewart:                     19:28                   Well it would get down around the [inaudible 00:19:29] I think they really did enjoy it.

  Speaker 1:                        19:36                   What were the parties then? You say entertainment for the prisoners? Did they entertain them up here in the prison?

  Ray Stewart:                     19:43                   Yeah, or in that room.

  Speaker 1:                        19:44                   In the room upstairs? Yeah, it would have been there.

  Ray Stewart:                     19:46                   Yeah, they'd have somebody on their night off from the city come over here and put on a show. A lot of vodka in those days.

  Speaker 1:                        19:54                   Yeah.

  Ray Stewart:                     19:58                   They were a lot of fun. I remember at home I'd sit at the head of the stairs and look down to see who was there and watch the party.

  Speaker 1:                        20:04                   Yeah.

  Ray Stewart:                     20:04                   For the staff and the families for the movies. We'd sit in this area.

  Speaker 1:                        20:15                   This sloped ramp?

  Ray Stewart:                     20:16                   Then the prisoners were all in here, and the movie screen was right there.

  Speaker 1:                        20:21                   That's interesting they would let both you and the prisoners in at the same time. It shows quite a different type of prison, doesn't it?

  Ray Stewart:                     20:29                   Yeah, it wasn't maximum security.

  Speaker 1:                        20:32                   No, did they ever have any live entertainment up here?

  Ray Stewart:                     20:35                   Oh yeah.

  Speaker 1:                        20:36                   This is the place where they did it? Did you ever get in to see that as well? Or was it just them?

  Ray Stewart:                     20:40                   Oh yeah.

  Speaker 1:                        20:41                   You would see that as well as the movies?

  Ray Stewart:                     20:45                   Yeah. Of course, I was pretty young. I didn't get to see the real good stuff.

  Speaker 3:                        20:53                   What was the range of the type of crimes they were in here for?

  Speaker 1:                        20:53                   Do you remember where your Dad's office was in the building right here?

  Ray Stewart:                     20:57                   Let's see if I can pick it out here.

  Speaker 1:                        21:08                   Do you remember any of these? What the other ones may have been?

  Ray Stewart:                     21:10                   What?

  Speaker 1:                        21:11                   What these other ones might've been that weren't where your dad was?

  Ray Stewart:                     21:27                   There was kind of a general clerical office in here.

  Speaker 1:                        21:27                   I think this is the Commanders office, or is it Commandant of the ward?

  Ray Stewart:                     21:29                   Yeah. It was sort of in that office area. I remember, no he was a different one. I think he was in [inaudible 00:21:51].

  Speaker 1:                        21:51                   The first room to the east of the main entrance?

  Ray Stewart:                     21:53                   Yeah. I think there's a wall here they kep the tobacco in.

  Speaker 1:                        21:53                   Oh, for the prisoners?

  Ray Stewart:                     21:53                   Yeah. If nobody messed up all week, they'd give them tobacco rations Friday night.

  Ray Stewart:                     21:54                   This is where he kept it stored. If somebody cut up, then nobody got it.

  Speaker 1:                        22:14                   If one prisoner made a mistake, then nobody got any tobacco?

  Ray Stewart:                     22:19                   Yeah, depending on the general [inaudible 00:22:23]

  Speaker 1:                        22:26                   Yeah. What about an armory for weapons for the soldiers who were the guards?

  Speaker 1:                        22:32                   Do you remember if they had any of that? Or did you ever know where that might've been?

  Ray Stewart:                     22:37                   I don't remember, but I would've guessed it would have been down by the dock, or somewhere down there not in here. I don't recall.

  Speaker 1:                        22:46                   Tennis courts down here in the [inaudible 00:22:48] room. Yeah, the old military. It's a big concrete walk, sidewalk or grounds.

  Ray Stewart:                     23:05                   There was a tennis court in there.

  Speaker 1:                        23:05                   Uh-huh (affirmative). Who lived in the other part of the duplex here? Do you remember?

  Ray Stewart:                     23:09                   I don't remember. It might have been a doctor.

  Speaker 1:                        23:09                   Uh-huh (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     23:16                   I can't recall.

  Speaker 1:                        23:17                   What's the egg yolk story?

  Ray Stewart:                     23:18                   She didn't like wild eggs much and especially the yolk. In the dining room there was a window.

  Ray Stewart:                     23:32                   One day I was out there playing around in the bushes outside the dining room window. I came across this terrible smell. I looked around and I discovered about 10 decayed egg yolks.

  Speaker 1:                        23:38                   Oh no!

  Ray Stewart:                     23:38                   I think she threw them out the window.

  Speaker 1:                        23:38                   Go down around the house.

  Ray Stewart:                     23:51                   It was really very nice down here. Then I'd go over to the [inaudible 00:23:57] and walk.

  Ray Stewart:                     24:03                   I remember I used to bring the papers over in the morning. I'd meet the guy with the newspapers. The Chronicle.

  Speaker 1:                        24:03                   Uh-huh (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     24:09                   I'd walk around while I delivered the papers all over the island.

  Ray Stewart:                     24:11                   This was like at seven in the morning. There was about four little houses along here with some kids.

  Speaker 1:                        24:11                   On the east side.

  Ray Stewart:                     24:22                   We used to play. We had this big place to play right in our backyard. We could do anything out here.

  Ray Stewart:                     24:23                   There's a tennis court. I really never identified much with what we went through up there except the movies.

  Speaker 1:                        24:43                   Yeah, all the fun things.

  Ray Stewart:                     24:44                   That's why [inaudible 00:25:02]. Of course, we saw the guards walking around sticks [inaudible 00:25:03]

  Speaker 1:                        25:01                   Uh-huh (affirmative).

  Ray Stewart:                     25:12                   [inaudible 00:25:12].

  Speaker 1:                        25:12                   It's a pretty large building, building 64.

  Ray Stewart:                     25:13                   I think this is where my mother would have the parties. Not up in that other place, but it was somewhere either in this building or next door. Some big room down there.

 

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