Oral History Interview
Herman Frumkin (Structural Engineer, Pittsburgh-Des Moines Steel)
Interviewed by Mike Capps, Historian, JEFF
August 7, 1990
[Herman Frumkin was a Russian immigrant who worked on the construction of the Gateway Arch. A civil engineer, he was an employee of Pittsburgh-Des Moines Steel stationed in Des Moines, Iowa. He had very little direct contact with the project. He was 93 years old at the time of this interview, which was conducted at the New Cassel Retirement Home, 900 North 90th Street in Omaha Nebraska in 1990].
CAPPS: This is an interview with Mr. Herman Frumkin, a retired engineer with the Pittsburgh-Des Moines Steel Company, in Des Moines Iowa. Mr. Frumkin was involved in the construction work of the Gateway Arch. This interview is being conducted on August 7, 1990, at Mr. Frumkin's retirement home in Omaha, Nebraska. The interviewer is Mike Capps, representing the National Park Service and Jefferson National Expansion Memorial.
FRUMKIN: You don't say who were used to working on high buildings.
CAPPS: Well, we get a lot of questions from people wanting to know about the Indian workers. You say they were from New York?
FRUMKIN: Yes, they were Mohawk Indians from New York State.
CAPPS: I've noticed in the few times I've watched the film, that some of the workers looked Indian.
FRUMKIN: Oh, yes.
CAPPS: Well, I'd like to ask you a few questions, if I could, sir.
FRUMKIN: Go ahead.
CAPPS: Alright. Your daughter sent me a copy of the little newspaper article that had been written up, I guess about a year or so ago, and it mentions in the article that you emigrated to this country from Russia.
FRUMKIN: Yes.
CAPPS: I'm kind of curious. How did that come about?
FRUMKIN: You mean the Russian people coming over?
CAPPS: Yes, well, Russian people in general, you in particular.
FRUMKIN: Well, the Russian people who came over here in the last 25 or 30 years were interested in agriculture. They were all officials of the Agriculture Department, and they came over to see how to cultivate corn. I know they -- and they always called me to act as an interpreter for them, and I enjoyed it -- they were interesting people, they were very educated, and but they could not speak any English. Until just a few weeks ago, a relative of mine, a lady from Russia, came over here to visit the family, and she spoke very fine English. In fact what she told me she's doing, she's working as an interpreter, for the visitors. And she's only 29 years old. She's the granddaughter of my younger brother, and a very attractive young lady.
CAPPS: So were you working in an official capacity as an interpreter?
FRUMKIN: You mean for the Russians? Yes. In Des Moines there is an office that belongs to the hybrid corn, and the Russians came over to inspect the planting and the raising and processing and all of that, for about three to five days. And the hybrid corn people used to call on me in Des Moines, to meet with Russians, and act as an interpreter for them, and I did that for a number of years.
CAPPS: Was that why you came to the United States, or had you just emigrated on your own before that?
FRUMKIN: No, I came here way back in 1913. I was only about 16 years old, and I lived with my family in a village, there were no schools out there. And so I had an older brother who lived in Los Angeles at that time, and he asked me and my sister to come over to stay with him, and I did.
CAPPS: Were you just planning on visiting, or did you come with the idea of staying here?
FRUMKIN: No, I came with the idea of staying.
CAPPS: You say that your brother lived in Los Angeles. How is it that you came to Nebraska?
FRUMKIN: Well, I attended high school in Los Angeles, and upon graduation, I had to go to university in order to get an education in technology; I wanted to be an engineer, since [the time when] I was only 10 years old. And so I applied for admission at Berkeley, and in Pasadena, and they would have taken me but they had a very high tuition. So I had a friend from Russia who lived in Ottawa [Kansas] with his sister and brother-in-law, and he and I corresponded, and he suggested I come to Nebraska U to attend school, because the tuition was very low, and the living conditions were very low; so I did that, way back in 1919. I came to Lincoln, and stayed for about four, four a one half years, until I got my degree in civil engineering.
CAPPS: You were saying that you always wanted to be an engineer --
FRUMKIN: Yes I did, since I was just a small little boy.
CAPPS: Was there anyone else in your family that went into that?
FRUMKIN: No they didn't, they did not.
CAPPS: What was it about engineering that interested you?
FRUMKIN: Well, the idea of doing something useful.
CAPPS: Building things?
FRUMKIN: Yes.
CAPPS: So when you got out of college, then you went to work for --
FRUMKIN: Pittsburgh-Des Moines Steel, in Des Moines, Iowa.
CAPPS: Was that right out of college, then?
FRUMKIN: Well, I graduated in June, and I started to work for the steel company in the following November. I was about sixty years with the company.
CAPPS: About sixty years, you say?
FRUMKIN: Yes.
CAPPS: That's a long time. I've only been with the Park Service now about seven years, and that seems like a long time to me, sometimes.
FRUMKIN: Yes, during the depression time of '29, '30, and '31, the company laid off most of the people. They kept me on the payroll, and I was lucky at that time I didn't lose my job.
CAPPS: Business kind of slack off during that time?
FRUMKIN: Yes.
CAPPS: What were some of the projects that you worked on?
FRUMKIN: Projects?
CAPPS: Yes, sir.
FRUMKIN: Well, there were buildings, bridges, fire escapes, then there would be the schools, for the universities and high schools, we built stadiums out of steel. The company had a patent for the professor at Iowa U, for the designing these stadiums made out of steel. So I was with them doing that kind of work. So we built stadiums throughout the country; in Miami, and they have some of them over here in Oklahoma, and they built stadiums in Nebraska and Iowa, and places like that.
CAPPS: So you moved around quite a bit during that time.
FRUMKIN: Yes, that's right.
CAPPS: How was it that you became involved with the Arch project?
FRUMKIN: Well, the steel company had a private contract to erect it. It was designed -- I've forgotten now which company -- that did all the designing. But I understand it was in Warren, Ohio, where the company had a plant. And after it was designed, then I got a job erecting it, and it took about four years' time, to erect the whole Arch.
CAPPS: When was it that you got involved with the Arch project?
FRUMKIN: The project? Oh, about 1962-63.
CAPPS: So pretty early on, then.
FRUMKIN: Yes.
CAPPS: What was your position with --
FRUMKIN: The company? Well, I was a draftsman. And I also looked around before I retired. I trained some of the high school graduates, and that took a couple of years. What is your position at the Arch, now?
CAPPS: I'm the park historian.
FRUMKIN: Oh, I see.
CAPPS: Yes, I work a lot with the museum, that's there at the Arch, and work out of the Old Courthouse, that's where my office is. When you were involved with the Arch project, what were some of your responsibilities?
FRUMKIN: My responsibilities? As you may know, they had equipment to lift the steel from the ground, and put it in place on top. And we had to have special equipment to do that. And as you may know, we had a crane that traveled on the top of the Arch, and that crane was equipped with erection equipment, and it was my job to do that.
CAPPS: So you're talking about the creeper derricks that went up the tracks on the side?
FRUMKIN: Yes.
CAPPS: So you were involved with the design and construction of that?
FRUMKIN: Well, the design of the lifting equipment.
CAPPS: The lifting equipment that was on there?
FRUMKIN: Well, maybe you never saw it. But as you may know, they had a crane on each leg, and that crane was traveling on iron rails. And this was --
CAPPS: So then the crane that actually lifted pieces into place was what you -- I also remember reading in the article that, it said something about that you were involved with some structural tests?
FRUMKIN: With what?
CAPPS: Structural tests for the Arch?
FRUMKIN: For the Arch? I don't know, I don't remember that. It was 26, 27 years ago.
CAPPS: Yes, it's been a while. Well, you were talking earlier about some of the people talking about how the thing might blow over.
FRUMKIN: You see the picture up there; my daughter and my son-in-law, about 43 years ago.
CAPPS: Yes, we have some really nice posters of the Arch. Well, I know that they had to do some structural testing, because they had the design on paper, but they had to make sure that it would work, once they got to building it.
FRUMKIN: As you may know, they -- during the construction, they took time out, and several times after midnight, they would check to see if it complies with the design; and it did most of the time.
CAPPS: Were there ever any times when it didn't?
FRUMKIN: Well, then they had to change the position, at that time to correct, so they could comply with the original design.
CAPPS: So did they alter the design plans, or did they --
FRUMKIN: Well, it was following the design, I mean pattern -- we waited until about midnight, before the lights were off, and traffic was down, and they would check it to see if it stayed within the design formula, and if it didn't, why then they would have to get a crane and either pull it up or push it down, to stay within the design formula of the Arch itself.
CAPPS: You say you got involved around '62 or '63; how long did you work on the project?
FRUMKIN: About three years; about three or four years.
CAPPS: Were you there all the way through, then, to the completion of it?
FRUMKIN: I was there for the time, until the completion. You say you have a tape recorder?
CAPPS: Yes, sir.
FRUMKIN: What's that all about?
CAPPS: Excuse me?
FRUMKIN: I say what is the tape about? What's the subject?
CAPPS: Well, I just wanted the chance to record our conversation, so to be sure that I wouldn't forget anything.
FRUMKIN: I see, I see. That's O.K., that's alright.
CAPPS: Because, like I say, we know certain things about the construction, but there are very few people that we've talked to that were actually involved with the project. And had some kind of personal relation with --
FRUMKIN: There was a young engineer in the company, who was a graduate of a university -- I think it was Kansas U -- and he was in charge of its construction -- [until] after it was all finished -- and then after it was all finished, he was placed in the office in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And I presume he's still over there, you know, he was a very young man.
CAPPS: Do you remember what his name was?
FRUMKIN: I couldn't remember his name, that's the strange thing about it.
CAPPS: He was in charge of the construction, you say?
FRUMKIN: That's right, he was.
CAPPS: When you were involved with the Arch project, were you on site every day with it?
FRUMKIN: No, I was in Des Moines all the time.
CAPPS: Oh, then you were in Des Moines, then?
FRUMKIN: Yes, until it was finished. And when it was finished I drove down just to see it, and spent about two days' time.
CAPPS: So during the actual construction, then, you were in Des Moines, working out of the office there?
FRUMKIN: That's right.
CAPPS: You say that you worked with the design of the lifting equipment on the creeper derricks; were there any other major parts of the construction?
FRUMKIN: Of the company?
CAPPS: Yes, sir.
FRUMKIN: Yes, there were some of them, I've forgotten now who they were; they were all retired by this time, and some of them died, but I was the only one who was still living.
CAPPS: Were there any other major parts of the project that you were involved with?
FRUMKIN: No, just the equipment, the erection equipment. Who are the people who come over to visit the Arch? Are they American natives? Outsiders or who?
CAPPS: We get them from literally all over the world. We have a number of foreign visitors -- a pretty high number. People who have heard of the Arch and want to come and see it. And then we have a good number of American visitors as well. It seems to attract people from all over, that want to come and see it.
FRUMKIN: Well, they're telling me that the people who visited the Arch after all these years wouldn't believe that it would stand up this long.
CAPPS: Yes, I can remember reading different things where people were skeptical about whether it would actually withstand it, and its held up pretty well, though, over the last 25 years.
FRUMKIN: It sure did.
CAPPS: You say you came and saw the Arch after it was completed?
FRUMKIN: Yes, after the main structure was completed -- they were still working on the elevators inside the Arch, you know.
CAPPS: But your involvement pretty much came to an end once the outer structure itself was completed.
FRUMKIN: That's right.
CAPPS: When was it? Did you come and see it right after it was finished, or --
FRUMKIN: Yes, about one or two [days] after it was finished.
CAPPS: What was your impression of it?
FRUMKIN: I was very much impressed.
CAPPS: Did you ever have any doubts yourself about whether or not it would work?
FRUMKIN: No, I never did. I thought that the Arch was made to stand up for a long time, with good maintenance, and so stainless steel requires no painting or anything else, and that's the way it was.
CAPPS: Yes, it's pretty easy to keep it up. There's not a whole lot to keeping the outside going. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about the Arch?
FRUMKIN: I don't know, what else would there be?
CAPPS: You said you were very impressed the first time you saw it. Have you ever been back to see it since?
FRUMKIN: No, I haven't been back.
CAPPS: Just the one time, eh?
FRUMKIN: Yes.
CAPPS: Did you talk with any of the workers who were involved with the construction?
FRUMKIN: No, I never did.
CAPPS: After your project with the Arch, what were some of the other projects you were involved with?
FRUMKIN: Well, there were other grandstands throughout the country, grandstands down in the south, in the east, in the Des Moines area, many highway bridges that I worked on in this country.
CAPPS: You say you were with the company for about 60 years; when did you retire?
FRUMKIN: I was with the company about 63 years.
CAPPS: When did you retire from the company?
FRUMKIN: Oh, about -- it must have been in the early '70s.
CAPPS: Well, I don't think that I really have any more questions, like I say, unless there's anything else that you would like to share.
FRUMKIN: How long are you staying in Omaha?
CAPPS: I'll be here through Sunday.
FRUMKIN: Through Sunday?
CAPPS: Yes, sir. I'm in town for a conference. So I'll be busy -- it starts tomorrow morning, and I'll be busy with that.
FRUMKIN: Well, have a good time, enjoy your stay, and if I can --
