The Voices of Muir Woods

Muir Woods has been a federally protected National Monument since 1908. What we know about it we have typically been told. Here you can listen to stories about Muir Woods told from the people who were there.

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Ranger talking — Rangers Talking
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 36883

"He'd go up to the woods and he'd see different trees, different plants. He'd take a look at them, look over and give you the scientific name of them." - Lawson Brainerd

Lawson Brainerd

Interview with Lawson Brainerd, who was a Park Ranger and the Chief Ranger for Muir Woods from 1942 to 1965

Date created:: 01/31/2024

Audio Transcript

	[00:00:30] Interviewer:		Okay, interview with Lawson Brainerd on August 5, 1988. Okay, so let's start again. You were talking about Joe Bickerstaff.
	Lawson: [00:01:00]		And Joe Bickerstaff was, he was raised around the entrance here, some place. They had their home here. His family was and he was raised here and he had the reputation of being quite a game poacher and-
	Interviewer:		What kind of game, Lawson?
	Lawson:		Salmon mostly.
	Interviewer:		Really?
	Lawson: [00:01:30]		When the salmon were running and I had never caught him with salmon, so I don't know. It's just the reputation he had. But he knew the [inaudible 00:01:19] pretty well and I was trying to find the station, when the railroad used to stop and ends there, wherever they were, was the railroad stop. He was getting along in years at that time and I-
	Interviewer:		What year was that?
	Lawson:		Oh, that must have been in the '50s and he said he could show me all the places, but I got bring him out. So I brought him out and we got up there, he couldn't find them as much as I could. I'd found some already and he didn't even know where they were. But he was an old-timer that was raised-
	[00:02:00] Interviewer:		When did you first meet him?
	Lawson:		I don't know when the first time I met him. His brother, I think his brother was in the police department and probably met him through him. But I don't know what he did for a living, but the family lived out here though. They were well known.
	Interviewer:		Where did they live out here?
	[00:02:30] Lawson:		I don't know just where the house was, but there was, right below the end, there was a house there that may have been it. There was nobody here-
	Interviewer:		Can you tell me about the house, what did it look like?
	Lawson:		Oh, it was just a very slimly built house and I never was in it, but there's an old German that had it at the time and I remember when we had extra wood when we took different things down and we'd give it to him.
	Interviewer:		This was not Bickerstaff. This was somebody else?
	[00:03:00] Lawson:		It wasn't Bickerstaff then. Bickerstaff moved, I think all of them were in Mill Valley at that time.
	Interviewer:		Did he live here with his family?
	Lawson:		I don't know that Joe had a family or not. But he lived in, his father and mother and I believe brothers were here. I never heard about a girl, or-
	Interviewer:		Was his father named Joe too, or?
	Lawson:		I guess so. I don't know what his father's name was.
	[00:03:30] Interviewer:		What can you tell me about Joe's place? How did that start?
	Lawson:		Well, the dance hall down in the back of the building that's down here now.
	Interviewer:		Uh-huh. It started as a dance hall?
	Lawson: [00:04:00]		I think so. It wasn't used as a dance hall much after I came, but it was for sale when I came, I think. A woman, I think Chalet's mother owned that. I know it was for sale for $5,000 at that time.
	Interviewer:		What year was it that you came to the park?
	Lawson:		That I came to the park? 1942.
	Interviewer:		How long were you here?
	Lawson:		Until I retired in March 1965.
	Interviewer:		Oh 1965, okay.
	Lawson: [00:04:30] [00:05:00]		I came here in February 1942 and I came down here to, I had been promised the job and then came down just to look for a place to live, to move down here and they'd had one of the biggest storms I guess they ever had in Muir Woods. I think it rained five inches in one night, in one day and night and I was on annual leave and they switched me on to, off annual leave onto regular and tried to keep the culverts clear and they were just big corrugated pipes and then they all got stopped up and then some were very, one just above, the bridge just above the Cathedral Grove, was buried I guess two and a half feet, in fact, they had a heck of a time finding it. It was all filled in there, from slides that came down from the canyon just above Cathedral Grove.
	Interviewer:		That was a winter storm.
	[00:05:30] Lawson: [00:06:00]		It was in February, yeah. I don't remember just what the date. But we had quite a job digging them out and after that superintendent, the last one, had kind of got, kind of running things here, they were doing ranger's work here, my assistant and I put in the bridges on the canyons coming down from [inaudible 00:05:58], so because the culverts used to get stopped up when a stick get across them and stuff. They were just replaced, oh about four years ago.
	Interviewer:		Now when you arrived in 1945, right?
	Lawson:		'42.
	Interviewer:		'42. How many bridges were there total over Redwood Creek, on the valley floor?
	Lawson:		Let me see. One, two, three, four, five, six. I guess seven.
	Interviewer:		Seven.
	Lawson:		I think so.
	Interviewer:		Were they all redwood log bridges?
	[00:06:30] Lawson:		They were all redwood log bridges.
	Interviewer:		Were they split whole logs?
	Lawson: [00:07:00]		No, they were not. They were the whole logs and they'd been adzed off the top and then I imagine where they made them saw down a certain length and then chip that off and then smooth it with an adze. I don't know how they made it, but it looks to me like the way others have been made anyhow. But they were big logs and they were, there was another one, an eighth. But they called it natural bridge.
	Interviewer:		Where was that?
	Lawson:		That's where the second bridge is now.
	Interviewer:		Where the second bridge was.
	Lawson: [00:07:30]		Yeah, you can still see the old stump sticking up there. But it got pretty narrow at this end of it and a woman fell off of it, or stepped off, or something and I guess broke her hip and instead of suing the Park Service, she sued the bus driver, because he had let her do it. So I don't know how it came out. There was quite a confound about it.
	Interviewer:		But they didn't have sides at the time?
	Lawson:		No. No, they just, it would have been easy to step off of them. One time I remember, a couple of sailors were out here and one of them, I guess he was looking around and he stepped off at the wrong place and broke both wrists. Can you imagine?
	Interviewer:		This was while you were working here?
	Lawson: [00:08:00]		Yeah. Broke both wrists and came over about two weeks afterwards and he had to have somebody with him, because he couldn't do anything, take off his clothes and do everything.
	Interviewer:		Okay. Now I want you to think about the very first time, you ever came into Muir Woods. Your very first vision of the entrance. What did it look like?
	Lawson: [00:08:30]		Well, at that time, it was just raining, pitchforks falling down and the water was clear up to the parking area and it was going around and over the log bridges and it was really storming hard.
	Interviewer:		And you drove in. What kind of car were you driving in?
	Lawson:		I had a Pontiac and we just came over here to look the situation over and I know we stayed here. They had us put on regular duty and stayed for about three days and that-
	Interviewer:		Didn't have a place to live at the time?
	Lawson:		Well, we stayed with Fin, the superintendent.
	Interviewer:		Oh, you stayed with Fin, superintendent. I see. Uh-huh.
	[00:09:00] Lawson:		I left my wife and her daughter down here. She was starting high school and we rented a place on Myrtle Street, just one block down from where I am now and they had a bed and not much more and then I went back to wait until the papers went through, so I could move my belongings and I don't know, it was two weeks I guess before they got those things in motion. Why, I don't know.
	[00:09:30] Interviewer:		What did the entrance look like? Was it different then it is today?
	Lawson:		Well the entrance was two logs, big log posts, with a log across on top. What swung on that was the sign, mural with National Department Interior right down by the kiosk here.
	Interviewer:		Was the kiosk there at the time?
	Lawson:		No. No, we built the kiosk. Somebody, I think we had one down there for a little while, but we didn't stay down there very much.
	[00:10:00] Interviewer:		Were they charging a fee at that time, when you first started?
	Lawson:		No. No.
	Interviewer:		How many people were working here, permanent at that time?
	Lawson: [00:10:30]		Well when I came here, I was, the supe and I were the only ones and then, oh I forgot, it must have been about 1950, right after the war, about 1955, we got another permanent ranger and I don't know the dates, the rest we had two or three permanent ones. But they couldn't get along with the superintendent, which no one could and they quit.
	Interviewer:		Which superintendent couldn't they get along with?
	Lawson:		I can't remember his name, but-
	Interviewer:		Okay.
	Lawson: [00:11:00] [00:11:30]		He was, I don't blame him. He was just an ignorant oaf, that was kind of impressed with his job. He rubber hosed the people and just made it miserable. Made it very disagreeable for the rangers. He always said that he didn't want any help. He said that he could make a ranger do the laborer's work, but he couldn't make the laborer do the ranger's work. For that reason, we didn't have any. Of course, we didn't have any money at the first few years. But after they'd get some and I know one boy came out from, he lives [inaudible 00:11:26], Sergo Furtado. He came down here and he couldn't get along with him at all and he quit. Then another one, what was his name? Evan Stodd. No.
	Interviewer:		Evan Stodd?
	Lawson:		Evan Stodd. He was a big candidate, but he couldn't get along with him. That was just before I came. Then another man was, came over here and he couldn't get along with him.
	[00:12:00] Interviewer:		But you weren't apprehensive when you first took the job then?
	Lawson:		What's that?
	Interviewer:		You weren't apprehensive about taking the job?
	Lawson: [00:12:30]		Well, I didn't know when I came down here. I had, the first two superintendents I had, I suppose were the worst they've ever gotten in the park and I remember when I left the Lava Beds to come down here, I was pretty well acquainted. I'd worked the forest there with the forester here. He said, "I'm sorry to tell you, Lawson," but he said, "You're just jumping out of the frying pan into the fire." He said, "You'll find Fin is worse than Fisher." But Fisher was vindictive. I didn't get along at all with him and of course, after I'd been there a year or so, I was as bad as he was.
	Interviewer:		In what way?
	Lawson: [00:13:00] [00:13:30]		Well, right after he got me, he wasn't around when two before me ran those out. So he's all for you, until you got in there and then, I don't know. I think he had an awful inferiority complex and he had his master's in history and he thought that ought to carry him along everywhere and he wasn't getting ahead in the park service. I could see why, but just for the way it went. The first year I was there, at that time three months probationary period and he was talking about how he was going to get me out when three months were up. Well the superintendent of the CC camp-
	Interviewer:		Who was that?
	Lawson:		His name was Hanes.
	Interviewer:		Hanes.
	Lawson: [00:14:00]		Anyhow, he heard that Fisher was going to railroad me out of there when the three months was up. So he went into Marin and got the American Legion there and the American Legion to the lake and the chamber of commerce and a few others, to have a committee come down and [inaudible 00:13:57] me, best to his advantage if I stayed on, so-
	Interviewer:		Did that actually happen?
	Lawson: [00:14:30] [00:15:00]		Yeah, that actually happened and then at the end of the year, when he gave me my rating, he gave an unsatisfactory and then of course, that should mean I was out. But the chief ranger, the Lava Beds under the Crater Lake and the chief ranger up there was over us and he took one look and he said, "Damned if he can give unsatisfactory." He went [inaudible 00:14:28] he'd give him unsatisfactory too, this Fisher. So he brought it up to fair, which was you could only raise it one after that. So I got by and then I came down here, this fellow was here and he said, he never gave him more than fair. So I had unsatisfactory and fair for about five years and last time when I came out, everything was excellent. I know I was a hell of a lot better management when I came in, than I was when I went out. I wasn't burnt out and mad then. But-
	Interviewer:		So was the CCC camp running at the time that you arrived here?
	Lawson:		No, they had, the CC camp in the Lava Beds was.
	Interviewer:		Oh, it was, uh-huh.
	Lawson:		Yeah, but the one down here, there was no CC in here and I think WPA, or PWA.
	Interviewer:		PWA.
	[00:15:30] Lawson:		They worked a lot in here and I'm just getting my notes together to write the history of the May Woods, from the time I came, to when I retired.
	Interviewer:		If you had to pick one event that occurred while you were here, that you would want to contribute say, to overall history of the region, not just of this area, but of the region, what would that be?
	Lawson:		Oh, I guess the big turn out is when we got the railroad. I wasn't here then, but-
	Interviewer:		No, but while you were here, was there anything in particular that you felt was historically-
	[00:16:00] Lawson:		For the good of the monument, you mean?
	Interviewer:		Well, for the whole area, yeah. Not just the monument, but the region.
	Lawson:		Oh no question. Taking out the picnicking in woods. It should have been taken out years before, but-
	Interviewer:		It was picnicking when you first came here?
	Lawson: [00:16:30]		Oh yeah, yeah. Picnicking. I think they'd taken the camp out the year before, but the picnicking was, every fair place in the, wherever there's a flat place in Muir Woods, was a picnic table. They had some place in here, for pictures. Painted by a Mrs. Finn, who was pretty good, amateur artist. I have one at home. A picture of the redwoods. You see in that, that the ground is absolutely bare. But getting the picnicking out was-
	Interviewer:		Was that difficult?
	Lawson:		No. We tried to get, everyone knew it should be out, but they were also afraid there'd be too much criticism in 1953.
	[00:17:00] Interviewer:		That was when they stopped it?
	Lawson: [00:17:30]		1953, yeah. One Sunday, I remember, we took so many cars that picnicked. They're taking up all the parking space. They stayed all day and you had to turn so many people away and so many just begged you to see a redwood, that you couldn't do it with two miles of cars stacked up behind you. The next morning, I said to my assistant, "Let's take them out." We came up, the superintendent there was [inaudible 00:17:29]. He was a very capable man, but he was going to retire.
	Interviewer:		What was his name?
	Lawson:		His name was Gibbs.
	Interviewer:		Gibbs, uh-huh.
	Lawson:		He was a very capable man, but he wasn't interested in Muir Woods. Wasn't interested in the people. He was going to retire and nothing was interesting. The only thing that was interesting to him, was it cost a thing. He would go over all the invoices. He could tell you every screwdriver and hammer that'd been purchased for Muir Woods. [inaudible 00:17:52].
	Interviewer:		So did you, what did you do? Dismantle all the picnic tables, or-
	[00:18:00] Lawson:		Yeah, we went up and said, well I think I said, " Sometime, we'll go down and take out the picnic," we'd been talking about it. I said something about go down and take out the picnic tables. He said, "Go ahead, if this is everything you propose. Go ahead." Which he did, but he wanted to see lots of it. So I thought we needed to, so we got the old truck and started hauling out picnic tables and we had the darnedest mess of picnic tables down by the lower parking area.
	Interviewer:		How many total did you have, do you think?
	Lawson:		I don't know.
	Interviewer:		20, 40?
	[00:18:30] Lawson: [00:19:00]		I don't know. There must have been, they went up even with the restroom out here. All out in that on the side hill and every flat place. Some were very good tables, some I took out, up across the restroom were put in, in 1922, because one of the men, I didn't know him then. I knew his brother. His brother worked as a forester here years ago. But he had written his name and the date on the underside of one of the tables.
	Interviewer:		So one of the tables had been there since 1922.
	Lawson:		Yeah and it was, not very good. But most tables were big [inaudible 00:19:11], we put them in there. They were damn big tables. Some with six legs and-
	Interviewer:		How far up the stream? All the way to the 4th bridge, or-
	Lawson:		Well you know where the Andrew Jake cross?
	Interviewer:		Mm-hmm. Across the Mora?
	[00:19:30] Lawson:		Yeah. Three tables there, but of course that's in the state park and we didn't take care of them. But they were up to there. I think that was the last table we had, as far as you could get the cars. But after we got the tables out, we just put a sign, "No picnicking" and there wasn't any criticism. People would say, "Can't we picnic here anymore?" You explained it and no one criticized it.
	Interviewer:		When you first got here, was the Muir Woods Road a toll road, or was it open?
	Lawson: [00:20:00]		No, it wasn't a toll road. No toll had been on there for a while. I don't know how long. I haven't got much information on that toll road.
	Interviewer:		The parking lot, was it just the main parking lot, or was there-
	Lawson:		Just this upper parking lot and down at the second upper parking lot, but that one wasn't paved or anything.
	Interviewer:		Where our annex lot is now?
	Lawson:		No, not way down, but-
	Interviewer:		But where the bus zone is?
	Lawson:		Yeah.
	Interviewer:		Yeah, uh-huh.
	Lawson:		We cleared that out and-
	Interviewer:		What year was that?
	[00:20:30] Lawson:		Well, they could park there, but we got it straightened out. I've forgotten, it was in the '40s sometime.
	Interviewer:		In the '40s, okay.
	Lawson:		But 1956, we had this superintendent here, he was a dynamo for work. He-
	Interviewer:		Who was that?
	Lawson:		Oh, Mahoney.
	Interviewer:		Uh-huh. Mahoney.
	Lawson: [00:21:00]		He got more work done and he paid less attention to the regulations. Some of the things were very dubious, but he got them done. For instance, we were building the step stones, the ones going out the other side, of course the rangers-
	Interviewer:		Steps going out the other side?
	Lawson:		Off the patio.
	Interviewer:		Oh off the patio here. Uh-huh.
	Lawson: [00:21:30]		Yeah and that he and Sitten put that in, [inaudible 00:21:15] uniform and they needed lumber for the loft in the garage up there, where I guess that got made into a parking now. You wouldn't believe how we got that, because they didn't have any money for it.
	Interviewer:		How did you get that?
	Lawson:		That was when we took the log bridges out. He sold the logs for it.
	Interviewer:		Oh, they sold off the log bridges and the money for that went into the lumber-
	Lawson:		He sold the logs. The government didn't have anything to do with that. They didn't miss whether they were gone.
	Interviewer:		I see. So the money from that lumber went to building the loft?
	Lawson:		Yeah, it paid for the lumber that did that and some other lumber, I think for the [inaudible 00:21:52]. During his regime, we opened up the annex parking lot, of course it wasn't paved then.
	[00:22:00] Interviewer:		What did it look like before it was opened up? Was it open?
	Lawson:		Well it was just kind of a meadow down through there.
	Interviewer:		There was a meadow. Was there anything else there before you put the annex lot in?
	Lawson:		No.
	Interviewer:		Anything at all?
	Lawson: [00:22:30]		No. But at first, we moved some picnic tables down there previously, that I remember. We went up to the deer park, there's a very well built restroom up there. [inaudible 00:22:20] and [inaudible 00:22:25] took the truck, the dump truck and ran it up there and put the toilet on it and dug a hole down in the lower place there and dropped it down there. But after we got the lower one in, we had it kind of lined out, we got a bunch of logs and lined it out, bumper logs and it was pretty crude parking space.
	Interviewer:		Can you tell me about when you were digging the post holes and you found the projectile point? What were you doing? Putting in fences, or what?
	[00:23:00] Lawson:		I'm just trying to, I don't remember. I don't remember what we were doing, digging for a sign, or just what it was.
	Interviewer:		Mm-hmm and exactly where was it again?
	Lawson:		It was right down, near as I can remember now, change has happened since then. You know where the trail branches off to go down to the creek and up to the Dipsea Trail?
	Interviewer:		To the Dipsea, uh-huh.
	Lawson:		Right about the head of that, as far as I can tell.
	Interviewer:		On the flat area?
	Lawson:		Yeah, well it was kind of on the side hill, a little slope there, but Furtado found it. We were working down there and he found it.
	Interviewer:		How deep down was it again?
	[00:23:30] Lawson:		As far as I remember, it was about 18 inches. It must have been there a long time. But this parking area right here, that must be quite a fill there, because when they were grading it, I mean it was before I left here, but they were beginning to make a decent looking parking area out of it.
	Interviewer:		This upper parking area?
	Lawson:		Yeah. But on the left hand side, it was all a bog there. [inaudible 00:23:54], you'd sink down there.
	[00:24:00] Interviewer:		Close to where the bathrooms are today, it was boggy?
	Lawson:		No, up right against the bank.
	Interviewer:		Oh, right against the bank, uh-huh.
	Lawson: [00:24:30]		Yeah, there was a spring in there. So we had to dig a big trench down there, as I remember about 10 feet deep and over to the creek to bring that out and that was all fill in there, in the bottom of that trench. I know we got a chunk of old redwood out of there. I made a key, [inaudible 00:24:26] I think of that. I don't remember whether it was that piece I made the keyholder [inaudible 00:24:34] and the flower pot with that down here. But it'd been filled in. I don't know. It'd have been interesting to know what it looked like before that.
	Interviewer:		Mm-hmm. Mostly fill though?
	Lawson:		That was all filled, yeah.
	Interviewer:		I was speaking with Dick Hardin and he mentioned that there was a historic dump underneath the bus zone parking lot and I was wondering if you ever remember seeing bottles or glass in that area?
	[00:25:00] Lawson:		No. There was a dump up, you know where the Alice Eastwood Trail branches off?
	Interviewer:		Right.
	Lawson:		Well just between the two of the main trail and that, there's a dump there and right above is a flat place, one of the ends of there. I don't know whether the train, I think the train came down to about there and [inaudible 00:25:17]. But it went down there and there was a septic tank there and we moved that septic tank to put the garbage in. We burned the garbage there, had an incinerator up here and burned the garbage up there.
	[00:25:30] Interviewer:		From the woods. You burned the garbage from the woods up there?
	Lawson:		Yeah, yeah. Had a couple that went to burn it and during the [inaudible 00:25:37] season. The bottom one doesn't burn very readily and we burned that and then the cans and bottles, we had a great big tamper, I wonder what became of that. I imagine it weighed 15-20 pounds.
	Interviewer:		A hamper?
	Lawson: [00:26:00]		Yeah, a big piece of iron on an iron rod. We'd rake the cans out of the incinerator and it had a big piece of iron and rake them up into that and smash them with that. We put them in that for a long time and where the garbage dump was.
			I began to cut out pieces and bring them over and that seemed to go over pretty big. [inaudible 00:26:24], look like I'm going to whelp. People seemed to enjoy them.
	[00:26:30] Interviewer:		Yeah, they do like them. It's real distinctive. Whenever I see these, I recognize them as yours.
	Lawson:		Well it's a good way to make friends for the country. They'll say [inaudible 00:26:43].
	Interviewer: [00:27:00]		Okay, I want to ask you about something that happened while you were here. If there was one time when you thought that you yourself really made the difference to the monument itself and being able to keep it running and keep it open, when would that be?
	Lawson:		That I can keep it open? Oh, I think it would have stayed open in spite of me. Some of the times I hurried it up a little bit-
	Interviewer:		Think so?
	Lawson:		Hurry them up a little bit, but I know one time, right up behind here, there's a big slide came down this canyon around up here.
	[00:27:30] Interviewer:		The one behind Glen's house, or up behind the shop there?
	Lawson:		No, it's this one right here.
	Interviewer:		Oh, this one right here behind [inaudible 00:27:37].
	Lawson: [00:28:00]		Yeah and it broke loose, just about where the old road came down across. Oh, there was tons and tons of stuff came down. Came rushing down. It got almost to here, but we had some logs along there, some bumper logs and it turned just enough and went down the road and it covered the parking lot. I guess two and a half feet deep and tapered out about to where the first parking lot ends.
	Interviewer:		Was this the wintertime?
	Lawson:		Yeah.
	Interviewer:		Did that happen every winter?
	Lawson: [00:28:30]		No, no. No, just only that time, but [inaudible 00:28:14] times since I was here. But that time, if those bumper logs hadn't have been there, they'd gone right through, because mud and water have a lot of force behind them. We had a heck of a time getting rid of that stuff.
	Interviewer:		Did you have to move it out by hand?
	Lawson:		Well, we started in by hand, but we weren't getting any place and I remember we got a bulldozer and then we had to wash it down. Didn't have enough water. That was one of those big [inaudible 00:28:48] and they came here is, lack of water.
	Interviewer:		Lack of water.
	Lawson: [00:29:00]		Yeah, we had a three-quarter inch pipe, came down from the tourist club, down to the canyon. It emptied about the third bridge, that canyon and at the head of that, they had two, I think it was a 3,000 gallon tank, a big tank.
	Interviewer:		Near the tourist club?
	Lawson:		Well, it was up in that canyon, but not, it was below the trail, but up right close to the trail and-
	Interviewer:		Were they redwood tanks?
	Lawson:		Yeah, they were redwood tanks. They said they got them from some bootlegger, or-
	[00:29:30] Interviewer:		They reused them, huh?
	Lawson:		Yeah, they'd been used and oh, they were a mess. That three-quarter inch pipe went into those and then for some reason, I think there was a three inch pipe came down that canyon to connect with the pipe here. That was our water supply and they were always breaking, or somebody was letting the water out of the tanks and every time you opened them up, there was a careless salamander, or a mouse, or something floating in the tank.
	[00:30:00] Interviewer:		Now at that time, did you have to test the water, or-
	Lawson:		No. We never tested.
	Interviewer:		You never tested?
	Lawson: [00:30:30]		No, we didn't test the water. [inaudible 00:30:09]. Lots of times, you're out of water and Chris [inaudible 00:30:22] and the ranger here with me, he was Hewie Ropeman. He would come and work, while I'd stay down here and take care of the people. I tell you, [inaudible 00:30:31] restroom with [inaudible 00:30:35] they get in were the problem.
	Interviewer:		I can imagine. So water was a big problem and erosion.
	Lawson:		What's that?
	Interviewer:		Erosion. The mud slides and the banks eroding.
	Lawson:		Well they came down, there's a big shoulder up there, there's a big gully, or a big wash out. I suppose you can still see it. I haven't been up there, or came back, but.
	Interviewer:		While you working here, your favorite visitor. Do you remember your favorite visitor?
	[00:31:00] Lawson:		Yeah. Two of them. My outstanding. One was Jan Christian Smuts, South Africa, another one Helen Keller.
	Interviewer:		Helen Keller, wonderful.
	Lawson: [00:31:30]		Of course, I had the opportunity to meet both of those, with Helen Keller, all one afternoon and with Jan Christian Smuts. He used to come here. He was chairman of the... I can't think of the, oh hell. Anyhow, the United Nations over here and I met him first when they had the meeting up here. He was chairman for the meeting and all of that.
	Interviewer:		For the United Nations ceremony?
	Lawson: [00:32:00]		Yeah. The United Nations. Then he must have been in most, spent all of his spare time over here after that. He would come over here and he was the most brilliant man I've ever been around, but he seemed to, anything you bring out, he was authority on. He'd go up to the woods and he'd see different trees, different plants. He'd take a look at them, look over and give you the scientific name of them, although he'd never seen them before.
	Interviewer:		So he visited several times?
	[00:32:30] Lawson:		Oh yes. He came over quite frequently. The only trouble with him, he had those big long legs and gosh, he'd have me panting like a lizard, following him. I couldn't take any more of asking him questions. He'd almost stop and he had a bamboo swagger stick and he'd tap me on the shoulder and explain it. I'd get my wind.
	Interviewer:		What was Helen Keller like?
	[00:33:00] Lawson: [00:33:30]		Well, it's pretty hard to describe her. Maybe sometime I'll let you in my, I have a [inaudible 00:33:01], I described in there. But it's hard to believe. After you've seen her a short time, you'd never know you were talking to a second person. You'd think you're talking right directly to her and you have to give an awful lot to her companion or aide, because she was wonderful in translating what you had said to her. You'd never see them [inaudible 00:33:28] holding each other's hands and they conversed that way and she'd ask questions and I'd answer them. Only times seemed to be a little confused, was when where the tree in Cathedral Grove, I told you that was a big hollow tree, the walk through tree. Well when she got in there and walked around in the inside, she was a little bit confused there for a while, so we explained to her.
	Interviewer:		Now is that walk through tree. That's the one that eventually fell to the ground there, in Cathedral Grove?
	Lawson:		Yeah, half of it did. Yeah.
	[00:34:00] Interviewer:		When did that happen? Was that fairly recently?
	Lawson:		Sometime after I retired and before I came back.
	Interviewer:		People remember that walk through tree a lot.
	Lawson:		Yeah, that was quite a thrill to, especially kids-
	Interviewer:		People remember that and what other places in the woods do people always want to go back to, do you recall, from when you worked here?
	Lawson:		Well I think the walk through tree and a lot of them came to want to go to Bohemian Grove and lots of them wanted to see the albino redwood.
	Interviewer:		The albino redwood. Now which one is that though?
	[00:34:30] Lawson:		The only one, up there. You know where it is.
	Interviewer:		I think so. You want to describe approximately where it is?
	Lawson: [00:35:00] [00:35:30]		You know where the stone bridge is. The only stone bridge, where just about, oh, I guess 50 yards, not 50 yards. Less than 50 yards, on the right hand side, there's a group of redwoods in there and coming out of that group is one tree about the size of your wrist maybe, just a sprout coming out about eight feet high and it just looks like it needs a shot of B1. It's kind of sickly yellow leaves and it's not very spectacular, but if everyone's theory is right, the water and the mineral has to go through the roots, up through the tree, to the leaves for photosynthesis and then it has to come down. I suppose to form a glucose through them and put on their [inaudible 00:35:31]. It's something that can't be done, but it does it. But it's very interesting botanically, but they used to have a sign by it, but every botanical class that would go by, they want to take a sample and it didn't stand much sampling.
	Interviewer:		Did you have problems with people taking things from the woods?
	Lawson:		They used to take it when they were picnicking in here. But just-
	[00:36:00] Interviewer:		Any plants in particular they always used to take, or?
	Lawson:		What's that?
	Interviewer:		Any plants in particular they would try and collect?
	Lawson: [00:36:30]		Lots of times they wanted to dig out the trillium and small ferns. Oh the five-fingered fern. That was a trophy and it was only, I think when I came back, there was only two or three of them left. There used to be a nice bank of them up on, we called it the water line canyon, the one that went up the tanks and on the side of that. I haven't been up, been back. But there used to be a nice bunch of them along the edge of that. That was one of the projects that I had planned on doing was, put five-fingered fern all along the creek. I knew where I could get them and up in-
	Interviewer:		Did you do that, did you transplant them?
	[00:37:00] Lawson: [00:37:30]		No, I left there. I don't think there's been anything planted since them. But yes, I take that back. Oh McLaughlin was superintendent then. He was a great worker. Not Mahoney, but McLaughlin. McLaughlin. He was a great worker. Then my maintenance man, Carl Stevenson. He planted all the ferns in Bohemian Grove. He took a very vital interest in that, but gosh, he'd do all his work and half of mine. He was, I showed Ms. Tamplais that they're here. When they put in the water line and the sewer line, I was inspector there.
	Interviewer:		The water line through the woods you mean?
	Lawson: [00:38:00] [00:38:30]		Yeah, no. The water line, well the water line coming down the hill and the sewer line going down. I didn't know anything about it. He said, "Brainerd, come over here." He said, "You see that joint down there? That pipe is, the connection's only set in there about a quarter of an inch. That should go in there three-quarter of an inch. You see how much is exposed." He said, "An easter or quaker, that thing is libel to snap off or snap out." So I beat my chest and roared, but I told the foreman, "We got to get those things in. Dammit, if you find another one of those, then they want to tap the job on you [inaudible 00:38:29]. That pipe goes along, it sways a little in the center. Stuff libel to collect in there and stop up." So again, I beat my chest and started roaring. I got the reputation of being a very strict inspector. Bill Thornton came over to inspect himself and [inaudible 00:38:43] than I did. I don't know what the situation had been, if it hadn't been for Carl here.
	Interviewer:		Did you have any, did you feel any earthquakes in the woods when you were here?
	[00:39:00] Lawson:		We had one earthquake. I was crossing one of the log bridges and I began to feel something. God, am I sick on my stomach, or what the heck? I just kind of was feeling something like seasickness, only not that way. So I got off the bridge and got ready to upchuck, or whatever my body was going to do and it didn't do anything. I found out there'd been an earthquake that time.
	Interviewer:		What year was that?
	Lawson:		I don't know.
	Interviewer:		But it was after you got here.
	Lawson:		No, it was after I retired.
	Interviewer:		Oh, it was after you retired.
	[00:39:30] Lawson:		No, I mean before I retired.
	Interviewer:		But it was when you were crossing the third bridge?
	Lawson:		No, well see the second bridge, which is up... Let's see. Up by about where the, across from Salmon Circle, the bridge there.
	Interviewer:		Salmon Circle and where was that?
	Lawson: [00:40:00]		Oh, do you know where the circle is there that they have the sign up that tells about the reproduction. Right across from that, about where that trail goes out to the weather station. Incidentally, that's a dam. That trail should be taken out.
	Interviewer:		Oh the circles?
	Lawson:		No, the trail, the slabs that go out to...
	Interviewer:		They're going to be taken out pretty soon. I think we're going to end for today.
	Lawson:		Okay.
	Interviewer:		Thanks, Lawson.
Interviewer:		Lawson Brainerd interview number two, September 9th, 1988.
[00:00:30]		I wanted to ask you about the Dipsea Trail. I know that the race was run for many years before you ever came to the park. How many years did you spend at the park? From 1930-?
Lawson:		1942 until 1965.
Interviewer:		1942 to 1965. And your capacity changed, right? Or were you always-?
Lawson:		I was ranger, and then eventually they called me chief ranger, supervisor ranger.
Interviewer:		Do you remember a lot of Dipseas?
Lawson:		Well, I used to watch them run by there.
[00:01:00] Interviewer:		Did you ever do anything to the trail before a race?
Lawson:		Well, about the only thing I did was... It used to cross the bridge right at the parking area there, and I would keep the poison oak cut back away from it. And I don't know whether they cross there now or whether they go down to the bridge.
Interviewer:		They still cross there.
Lawson: [00:01:30]		At that time, there was the bridge across, and a tree. I don't think... That wasn't pulled across. Probably much bigger. But sapwood was all gone, just the hardwood. And on the far end, it was only about that big around. Really was dangerous for people to go across.
Interviewer:		And that was where the trail crossed? Or that-?
Lawson: [00:02:00]		That's where the original trail crossed was by the concession down there and up the hill, next to the road up above. And as I remember, that was the main trail, but now it's been... Well, that bridge... Fact is, the superintendent and I took the darn thing out because it was dangerous and... Oh, we got hell. No chance in hell, then... And then they built several bridges across there, but they didn't put them far enough up on the bank and they washed out.
Interviewer:		How about up above on the Dipsea, past where the Bickerstaffs were? The trail ran around the Bickerstaff place, up the hill.
Lawson:		Yeah.
[00:02:30] Interviewer:		Okay, and was there any change in that route at all? They always went around the Bickerstaff place and up the hill.
Lawson:		Well, when they used to run, they used to come right down... Sometimes, most all just came this side of the old concession, down there, straight across, not-
Interviewer:		Right straight down the hill from there. So through the area where Mia's house is now?
Lawson: [00:03:00]		Well yeah, right around where the... Just most of them came just to the right of that. Then they'd come down to... There wasn't a lower parking area in there, then, and they'd come right straight down.
Interviewer:		How about the upper part of the Dipsea, from our Muir Woods National Monument up? Did they ever change that route, or do you remember?
Lawson:		I don't... They went up to, if you know where the redwoods are up on the-
Interviewer:		Highway?
Lawson:		The last redwoods as you get up there, they branched off there and went over the top.
Interviewer:		Okay. Okay. That's still the same route they have today. Yeah.
Lawson:		I think so.
[00:03:30] Interviewer:		Okay. Anything else you can recall about the race being run, while you were here? It would help.
Lawson:		No, I don't. I watched them go by two or three times, but I don't know too much about it.
Interviewer:		How about the old Inn? I have some questions on the old Inn that the maintenance staff uses now. Now, has that building been changed a lot? And how do you remember it?
Lawson: [00:04:00]		It was built on... I think that was the old Joe's Place, they called it years ago. And when I came here, Jack Chalette, the fellow had this place here, I think his mother owned it.
Interviewer:		Was his mother still alive?
Lawson:		His mother was alive then. I remember she had it for sale for $5,000, that piece of land.
Interviewer:		Why did she want to sell it?
Lawson:		I don't know.
Interviewer:		Was she a widow at the time?
Lawson:		I don't remember her husband. They had a brother that he was in trouble a good deal of the time.
Interviewer:		Oh, really?
[00:04:30] Lawson:		Jack's brother. I don't know if you want that for the record, but he was in trouble quite a bit. And then I think 1959, I'm not quite sure the date, but Jack came back and he was married to Gloria and they ran it for a while.
Interviewer:		Can you tell me anything about the type of place it was when they were running it?
[00:05:00] Lawson:		Well, it looked a good deal like it does now. They sold a few souvenirs. They served light refreshments and beer.
Interviewer:		So they did have alcohol.
Lawson:		Yeah. They had beer there. I don't think they had any other alcohol. I know one of the boys here used to go down and eat there all the time.
Interviewer:		One of the rangers here at Muir Woods?
Lawson:		Yeah. Oh... Voltz.
Interviewer:		Voltz.
[00:05:30] Lawson:		And I imagine he was the brightest man in the Park Service, and also the laziest.
Interviewer:		You mentioned that before.
Lawson: [00:06:00]		Yeah, I must call him up. They moved to Vermont from here. I call him up, we call each other about twice a year, send a letter. But when I first came here, they had just kind of a rinky-dink place down there, of sorts. And then I suppose that Jack owning that land then, this is just my guess, gave him leverage on getting this up here.
Interviewer:		And how much land was it about, with the old Inn sitting on it? Was it-?
Lawson:		I don't know, but they could just... He owned it. There were a couple others, an old German just below him that had the piece, and had a house there. And just the one house below him.
Interviewer:		Where was that? Oh, where Bickerstaffs was? Or below that?
Lawson:		I don't know just where Bickerstaffs was.
[00:06:30] Interviewer:		But by the German, you mean somebody who owned a parcel next to-?
Lawson:		Yes. There's an old German owned the house there. He had a few orange trees, fruit trees.
Interviewer:		Uh-huh. Was that down toward the cement bridge? What we have down here now, a cement bridge that crosses the road?
Lawson:		Yeah. But just, it's rather adjacent to it, right close to it there.
Interviewer:		Oh, but not across the street.
Lawson:		No.
Interviewer:		Okay. Close to it.
[00:07:00] Lawson:		And let's see, about 1956, we got the... Well, the parking's always been a bottleneck, and the superintendent and the other ranger and I put in the parking area, the lower one down there. Pretty primitive at that time.
Interviewer: [00:07:30]		I want to show you these photographs. These are historic photographs of the area we're talking about. This one is July 1931, at the turn. And you can see a little bit, I think, of the old Inn there. Now here, this is July 1940. It doesn't look like the old Inn is there unless that's it. Or is that Bickerstaff's house? That's okay. Don't worry about that. It looks like a dark building with white trim.
[00:08:00] Lawson:		That's up from this side of... I mean, these cars, this side of them. That's the same building, isn't it?
Interviewer:		Hard to tell. This one's cut off, see. This one looks closer to the road. This looks like the old Inn.
Lawson:		Yeah. I think that's the old Inn right there.
[00:08:30] Interviewer:		But I'm not sure if that's the same building or not. Now, you were mentioning the German fellow who owned the property. Would his land have been down here?
Lawson:		Mm-hmm. Just below it. Right adjacent to it.
Interviewer:		Because his fruit trees are still there. Now, this is the meadow where the leach field is now, during a convention in '55. Do you happen to remember that group of buses camped out there like that?
Lawson:		What convention would that be?
Interviewer:		That was the Lutheran Convention. You had 152 buses and 6,000 delegates.
[00:09:00] Lawson:		Yeah, I remember that one.
Interviewer:		Okay. And they all circled up.
Lawson:		They picnic in that-
Interviewer:		Uh-huh. Now this area where the meadow is, that's the leach field today?
Lawson:		Yeah, this upper end of it is the parking area.
Interviewer:		Okay. And it all used to be flat and grassy like that from one end to the other?
Lawson: [00:09:30]		The lower end was pretty flat, just about like it was now. When we put the parking area in, it was very primitive. We just cut out and laid some logs, bumper logs along.
Interviewer:		What kind of trees did you cut out mostly?
Lawson:		I was afraid you'd ask that.
Interviewer:		That's okay. I don't mind.
Lawson:		I think the state park took trees that needed thinning.
Interviewer:		So it was mostly conifers or hardwoods?
Lawson:		Conifers.
Interviewer:		Conifers. Okay. And did the wood get used, though?
Lawson:		Well, it was used for bumper logs. And it was very primitive. And through the years it was improved more and more.
Interviewer:		So it was dirt first.
Lawson:		Yeah. Dirt first.
[00:10:00] Interviewer:		And you really needed that.
Lawson: [00:10:30]		Yeah, but it filled up awful fast. I mean, we never had enough parking area. Of course, they have 10,000 cars and 10,000 people in here a day. But you know and I know that when you have 3,500 people in here, the parking area's full, and it's full up the road as far as they can walk and halfway to Muir Beach. So how the hell you going to get 10,000 in?
Interviewer:		Now, that coastal trail to Muir Beach, is that as old as the Dipsea Trail? You know the one that goes on this side of the road, down the drainage?
Lawson:		I imagine so. I don't know the history of that one, but there was a trail that went parallel the crick, up in the hill, about 50 yards up in the hill.
Interviewer:		On the far side?
[00:11:00] Lawson:		Yeah. And they did a lot of work on that. Why they built it, I don't know. There must have been a trail along the crick.
Interviewer:		Now, when was that one put in?
Lawson:		I don't know-
Interviewer:		Before you got here, though.
Lawson:		Yeah, it was all overgrown when-
Interviewer:		Okay. Well, this tree is still here, this Buckeye right here, still in the leach field.
Lawson:		Yeah.
Interviewer: [00:11:30]		It's huge now. So it does look real flat, but I still can't figure out if that's the old Inn or not. If it is, then there's been a lot of changes. But I looked inside the old Inn, and what interests me inside the old Inn is it's mostly redwood, and it looked like they had a bar in it. So that's why I asked you about alcohol. Did they have a place for seating inside?
Lawson:		Yeah, they had a seat.
Interviewer:		Okay. And how about outside? What did the outside look like?
Lawson:		As I remember, there was kind of a deck out there.
Interviewer:		Flagstone or wood?
Lawson:		Wood. It was raised up on the slope. It was raised up.
[00:12:00] Interviewer:		And how did people get up there? Was there a way of getting out to the deck from the outside of the building? Or they had to go inside?
Lawson:		You could go up around the far end and come in. Yeah, they could go up, and as I remember, there were steps right in the front.
Interviewer:		Okay. Okay. And did they stay open late at night?
Lawson:		I think so. I don't know.
Interviewer:		Don't remember. Okay.
[00:12:30] Lawson: [00:13:00]		But I've been trying to try to figure out, and unfortunately I didn't, where the old trains used to stop, coming down. Of course, most of that's in state line now. But where the Alice Eastwood Trail branches off, about 100 yards up there, is the flat place that apparently some building was there. And right on the left-hand side of the Alice Eastwood Road, about the same distance up, there apparently was a garbage dump there. And we dumped our garbage there for years.
Interviewer:		Really? From the woods?
Lawson:		Yeah. We'd burn it first, and then had a great big, heavy stamper that would crush the cans. And they'd put them in there.
Interviewer:		And how would you cart it up there? By vehicle?
Lawson: [00:13:30]		Yeah, by vehicle. The incinerator was up here by the garage. We'd bring the stuff down in the truck, and get a good fire going in there, and then put it in there and burn it.
Interviewer:		And then crush the metal?
Lawson:		Then crush the metal and bottles.
Interviewer:		And then add it to the dump. And this is the dump above where the old Inn was?
Lawson:		No, this was up where the Alice Eastwood Trail goes up, probably 100 yards up there, on the right side. There had been a building there, it's a flat place.
Interviewer:		Right. I've seen it.
Lawson:		And this was the-
Interviewer:		It's where the road turns?
Lawson:		No, not that far up.
Interviewer:		Oh, not that far up.
[00:14:00] Lawson:		I think there were two stations there.
Interviewer:		Oh, I see.
Lawson:		And I got one of the Bickerstaff boys, asked if he knew, but they weren't sure. He said he'd come over and show me. And so I brought him over one day, and went up the hill. He didn't know where they were.
Interviewer:		Which Bickerstaff was that? Wasn't Joe, was it?
Lawson: [00:14:30] [00:15:00]		Joe? No, I think it's another one. I forgot what the name was. There was several boys. One of two boys. He didn't know. He couldn't find it. But we had pictures of them, but trees grow. I had all of the corners of the monument. The superintendent and I, we had a transit, and we located all the corners of the monument. And one of them was right close to where the Ben Johnson Trail takes off. On the right-hand side there's a kind of cleared place there. I looked there several times. They couldn't find... It's a pipe about that high, in the grass.
Interviewer:		I think it's still there. I think the cap's gone, but the pipe's still there.
Lawson:		It is?
Interviewer:		Yeah.
Lawson:		And then there's one, the only one I couldn't find, is it goes across the crick, and looked like about 50 yards the other side of the crick, there was the bend there. But I never found that one. I didn't find that one. But I found all the rest of them. Right.
[00:15:30] Interviewer:		I'm curious about Frank's Valley. Who was Frank?
Lawson:		I don't know.
Interviewer:		Don't know.
Lawson:		No.
Interviewer:		And I'm also curious about the toll road. Was Frank's Valley Road a toll road? Or was Panoramic Highway a toll road?
Lawson:		I think that the road that came down here, Frank's Valley, was the toll road.
Interviewer:		And where was the toll taken?
[00:16:00] Lawson:		I believe right where those trees are. It looked like it had a chain across someplace there. It did years ago.
Interviewer:		Do you remember that? Do you remember driving down the road and seeing that?
Lawson:		Well, I stopped there and tried to locate things.
Interviewer:		You did.
Lawson:		I can't see a flat place for a house there.
Interviewer:		I can't either.
Lawson: [00:16:30]		And then they had a chain, I've been told, right up near the summit, that they had a tollhouse there. Now, I can't make a connection, and no one seems to have any definite proof of it. I tried to find out from the Historical Society here in Mill Valley. They didn't seem to have any information on it.
Interviewer:		Did you have any idea how much they charged to come down Frank's Valley? And you know the way Frank's Valley Road is now, with all the winds?
Lawson:		Yeah.
Interviewer:		It hasn't changed very much.
Lawson:		I don't even know.
Interviewer:		As far as I can tell. Do you ever remember them changing Frank's Valley Road while you were working here?
[00:17:00] Lawson:		Mm-mm. They put in a new bridge down where you used to have a big culvert there, a big-
Interviewer:		Oh, over our stream? Over Redwood Creek?
Lawson:		Yeah. Down maybe two or three miles, two and a half miles down. We had that big culvert there.
Interviewer:		When did they put the bridge in?
Lawson:		I think right shortly after I came, it got all clogged up when they had the big rain.
Interviewer: [00:17:30]		How about the ranch down the road where the State Park Rangers live now, called the Diaz Ranch? Do you ever remember any neighbors in the area?
Lawson:		Yeah, I knew the Diaz. They owned all the stuff just adjacent to the Dipsea Trail.
Interviewer:		Did they graze cattle up there?
Lawson:		They had cattle. Yeah. And we used to have feuding with them a good deal of the time. The cattle would get in the Monument there.
Interviewer:		How many head did they have on the ranch?
Lawson:		I don't know how many. I remember that one time there was about 25 head came down-
[00:18:00] Interviewer:		Into the woods?
Lawson:		Mm-hmm. And they were picnicking, then, and we tried to run them the hell out, and got them scared and loco. And they came down the crick, and the people were screaming, and cattle were all over-
Interviewer:		Wow! When did that happen?
Lawson: [00:18:30]		Oh, that must have been in the late '40s, around there. But they used to be a darn nuisance there. They had picnic tables down where the Dipsea Trail goes now, down through those trees there. And of course the cows used to get up among them and-
Interviewer:		Now, exactly where is this? Up on the hill or down close to the street?
Lawson:		Right down this side of the crick.
Interviewer:		Oh, I see. Sure, in that flat area.
Lawson:		Yeah. And of course, after a bunch of cows been there a while, it's kind of not very dainty.
Interviewer:		Yeah. So you knew the Diaz. And the German gentleman who owned the property, you can't remember his name, can you?
[00:19:00] Lawson:		I don't remember his name. I know I was kind of provoked with him. There used to be lots of raccoons here, and they were a damn nuisance, but I liked them around. And he poisoned a whole bunch of them.
Interviewer:		For what reason? Were they getting into something?
Lawson:		Oh, they were getting into his chicken coop, and one thing and another.
Interviewer:		So he had chickens and he had fruit trees.
Lawson:		I think had a few chickens. And I don't think he had any other animals. But anyhow, they'd get in his hair too much.
[00:19:30] Interviewer:		Now, our Conlon Avenue now, where we have the dirt road with the gate across it. Where we go up to take the weather, we drive up Conlon Avenue, which is the road that's just across from the leach field, that little dirt road.
Lawson:		It goes up the canyon there.
Interviewer:		Yeah. Do you remember any people specifically, while you were working here, that were living in that canyon?
Lawson: [00:20:00]		Oh, yes. Gosh, I can't remember the name of the fellow. He used to be up here all the time. He was kind of pretty capable. He was, oh, probably 10 years older than I was. And he used to have a bunch of children, used to go up there, had several camps, different kind.
Interviewer:		Summer camps?
Lawson:		Yeah. And he was talking to a group over there, there's a bridge up or maybe... I forgot just how far, maybe we'll say half a mile. And he was leaning against the rail and it broke, and he fell over backward and killed himself.
[00:20:30] Interviewer:		Oh my gosh. And was he the owner of one of these camps?
Lawson:		No, he owned some land up there, and a house. And I don't know what the status of it is now. I suppose the state or, I mean, the Park Service probably bought most of them, now.
Interviewer:		Were any of them church camps? Do you know?
Lawson: [00:21:00]		They had one up there. I don't know who ran the camp. I think a different organization would go up there, and they would stay up there for two or three days or whatever. And I know they used to come up here and I'd take them through the woods and-
Interviewer:		Children or adults?
Lawson:		They were children mostly. I'd take them through the woods. And kind of hazy, my memory of the... I knew quite a few of the people up there. I don't remember their names.
Interviewer:		Well, if you think of them, let me know, because that would be interesting to know that. It was mostly private land in that valley then?
Lawson:		Yeah.
[00:21:30] Interviewer:		Anything about... Did you see mountain lion or anything in that valley ever, or in Kent Canyon?
Lawson:		No. The only thing that I have authentic, and that's not proven... When I came here, one of the men in the park, that I have confidence in, said they saw a lion track up by Deer Park. And that's the only evidence I have. I've seen lots of people who've seen lions, but I question they... And I have friends that see lions every time they go out, but-
[00:22:00] Interviewer:		How about that waterfall up in Kent Canyon?
Lawson:		Kent Canyon, you mean the-
Interviewer:		The one where the Diaz ranch goes up. That canyon.
Lawson: [00:22:30]		Oh, that one. That's one of the big boners that I made. I should have known about it, but I just didn't get down there. And it had a beautiful stand of redwoods up that canyon. And I was coming up the Frank Valley Road, and I noticed redwood bark going out there. And I followed that, and found out they'd logged all that out.
Interviewer:		When was that?
Lawson: [00:23:00]		Oh, it was before Park Service, when Diaz owned the ranch. And if we could only... If we could stop that, and I think that they could have, but I just didn't know they were doing it. It was just over the hill, and I'd be down to there, if I'd known that. They were wanting to get the timber out before the state bought it. And they did.
Interviewer:		So you think it was Diaz's family that did it?
Lawson:		I imagine they sold the land. I think they did. But that was a beautiful canyon. It wasn't-
Interviewer:		How many redwoods do you think they logged out?
Lawson:		I don't know. There's a beautiful stand of reds. I'd been up there, always up there. When I first came here I went up that, and then over the top.
Interviewer:		There's a trail that does that?
[00:23:30] Lawson:		No, there wasn't no trail there. I just went. And beautiful stand. I don't remember. They weren't too extensive, but it was beautiful. And the ferns and different things was just-
Interviewer:		Right around the waterfall?
Lawson:		Yeah.
Interviewer:		Yeah? Somebody told me that Kent had a hunting lodge up there. William Kent. But that would be real early on.
Lawson:		I don't remember that. Up that canyon?
Interviewer:		Yeah.
Lawson:		I think that'd be a pretty hard place to put it.
[00:24:00]		[inaudible 00:24:03] for the valley. They just, too many roads, and beat him down there. They said they used to take lots of ferns out, the florists did.
Interviewer:		Ferns, especially? Or other plants too?
Lawson: [00:24:30]		Mostly ferns, I think. I think they got pretty near all of the five-finger ferns along the crick because I know there were just a few left. I don't think there's any left now. But there must have been lots of them along the crick, but they transplant easily. And I got my star, at my place. They were doing some road work up in Mendocino County. We were up there huckleberrying, and they were going to dig out these-
Speaker 3:		I think she want's you to leave because think it would be [inaudible 00:24:47] or something.

"Man named Mr. Montgomery owned that. It was called the Muir Woods Inn. They served dinners there and soft drinks" - Joe Souza

Joeseph Souza

Interview with Joe Souza and family members about their dairy farm near Muir woods, interview conducted in 1989.

Date created:

01/31/2024

Audio Transcript

[00:00:00]

Interviewer: Interview with Joseph Souza and his wife, Billy, and his daughter, Shirley Nigren at their Muir Beach home on March 31st, 1989. This is half of the recorded conversation. The other half was damaged and could not be recorded.

However, notes were taken during that part.

We pick up the conversation as Joe is starting to discuss the different ceremonies that the Portuguese community is involved in during the year. [00:00:30] We just finished talking about the Holy Ghost ceremony that occurs around the Easter time and subsequent to Easter, eight Sundays after Easter. We've also finished talking about life at the Slide Ranch and some of the other ranches in the area. The pertinent details are in the notes.

[pause 00:00:49] [00:01:00]

Joe: That's where usually you pick up more money that way. You wouldn't have to buy feed because of the [unintelligible 00:01:20] don't make that much profit. What else could I say about that? [00:01:30]

Interviewer: Actually, I wanted to ask you about the other ceremonies too. There's the Holy Ghost--

Joe: Festival?

Interviewer: Yes. There's the Holy Ghost festivals, but there are other festivals during the year as well, right?

Joe: Yes. You have the Queen's drawings in February. Gals are all single and the members choose a lot, they have these little numbers there, if your number's 10 and so your dad has to get you [00:02:00] dressed and all that to be the queen.

Then you have to go find a couple girl friends to be your maids, but they have to be Catholic. Then you get flower girls.

Interviewer: Do they all have to be at the one church or can they be--

Joe: Yes, but then you'll go-- Like now you'll go to Sausalito and you go to Nevada or you go to Belem and you go to Sebastopol and then sometimes Fort Bragg, and then Benicia.

Son: San Joaquin Valley. If you're chosen to be a queen [00:02:30] there, you start-

Joe: Oh, yeah. About 20 of them.

Son: -seven Sundays-- The seventh Sunday after Easter is the first one in Modesto. They are every Sunday until October.

Interviewer: Until Pentecost?

Son: Yes. No. Pentecost is after.

Interviewer: August?

Joe: It's the seventh. No, no, no.

Son: It's the seventh Sunday after-

Joe: That's Brother's Supper.

Son: -Easter.

Joe: Members.

Son: As far as the Queen's Marching, they all intermingle with each other. Your queen comes to mine, my queen comes to your festa.

Interviewer: Wow.

Son: They start early and they go everywhere. [00:03:00] Here it's four weeks, five weeks. [crosstalk]

Joe: They spend whole summers $4,000, $5,000. To clothe the kids. Apricot, [unintelligible 00:03:10] trews, purple, maroon-- beautiful. Augustine, that's in September. I've had at least 25 queens.

Son: That's biggest one in California.

Interviewer: Wow.

Joe: You got Marlborough, Santa Cruz.

Son: It goes for [00:03:30] four days.

Interviewer: Wow.

Son: Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.

Joe: [unintelligible 00:03:32] They have a bull fight. They'll march the cows, and then they give milk, and Portuguese sweet bread to people. They've got a carnival.

Son: Big time.

Interviewer: There's special sweet breads too for the Holy Ghost festival too, right?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: That's what I thought. Is one person in charge of making those or just--

Joe: No. I guess in the old days-- Matter of fact, when I was a child in Sausalito, [00:04:00] the ladies used to bake cake. Either cake, [unintelligible 00:04:05] had an apple orchard, so all the ladies would have apple pie. We'd have apple pie with your supper. Now it's too damn many people to even begin that.

Anyway, getting back to sweet bread, they have a bakery-- Bakery. Hell, they have three or four of them in San Jose or Santa Clara that we go there and we order 500 rolls or 1,000, whatever you want. [00:04:30] You got to order at least a day ahead of time, so you get it the same day, you bring it-- have you ever seen there eight boxes of [unintelligible 00:04:36] bread, four in each one? Well, if you pick them up today, they've made them this morning, [whistles] it'll be like a pancake. The bread will just-- You have to leave it-- Hard enough for a day anyway.

Interviewer: They're leavened?

Joe: Oh yes. They have, like I say, bakeries would make them.

Interviewer: There's the Holy Ghost festival, that [00:05:00] takes place right at Easter?

Joe: Seventh.

Interviewer: No, that's seven?

Joe: Seven Sundays after Easter.

Interviewer: After Easter. Then Pentecost is separate?

Joe: No, Pentecost is a week later I think. They had Trinity they got--

Interviewer: There's Trinity Sunday.

Joe: Trinity Sunday is like a week after.

Son: Week before.

Joe: Week before, that's right.

Son: Trinity is the sixth Sunday after Easter. Pentecost is the seventh Sunday after Easter Sunday.

Interviewer: Are they separate festivals are no? They're the same [crosstalk]

Son: We don't really have [crosstalk]

Joe: At one time, like Sausalito and Nevada used to [00:05:30] have on the week before or the week after. That got too damn much already to do, costly. You hire a band, now it'll cost you $500 just for the band.

Interviewer: What kind of band did you have? What instruments were there?

Joe: In the old days it was a guitar, accordion, and the violin.

Son: And viola.

Joe: It was mostly Portuguese Chamarrita, the dance. Now they got modern stuff.

Son: [unintelligible 00:05:53] in Kansas City.

Joe: Yes. Rock n' rolling.

Interviewer: Are there traditional [00:06:00] dances that are still done though?

Joe: Oh yes, the Chamarrita is a circle.

Interviewer: It's a big circle dance?

Son: Yes. [crosstalk]

Joe: Yes. You got to learn them when they have this--

Interviewer: No, I've never learned any [crosstalk]

Son: You should one day [unintelligible 00:06:10] Sausalito? [crosstalk]

Joe: Coming up 21st day.

Interviewer: Of April?

Joe: No, of May.

Interviewer: Oh, Jesus. Would be great.

Son: You should go because it's at night. [crosstalk] You'd miss the parade and that but-- The parade [00:06:30] usually leaves Caledonia at 9:00 in the morning on Sunday. What's you trip on Sunday?

Interviewer: Oh, I'm not going to be working at the Woods' after that.

Son: Oh that's right.

Interviewer: I might not even be here, but I would like to go. [crosstalk]

Joe: No, listen here, it is-- [00:07:00] Let's see. [unintelligible 00:07:03] Festa May 6th.

Son: So Sausalito's the next week and the 14th [crosstalk]

Interviewer: That'd be great. I'll still be around then.

Son: 13th? You get to do one in [unintelligible 00:07:16] because Sausalito would be a lot easier. It's the 14th.

Joe: It could be the 16th.

Billy: It's the 14th, isn't it? [crosstalk]

Interviewer: What was the first one that you went to?

Joe: [00:07:30] May 14th.

Son: Where I could remember.

Interviewer: Really?

Son: I was born in December, so I'm sure when I was six months old in May--

Interviewer: They probably took you along, right?

Son: Oh yes.

Joe: May 14th, yes.

Interviewer: There's the Queen's dinner and dance on Saturday.

Joe: Right.

Interviewer: There's the Holy Ghost auction on Saturday. Holy Ghost, it's a festa though, isn't it? It's not fiesta, it's festa.

Son: It's festa.

Joe: Festa.

Interviewer: Parade, and then a state dinner Saturday.

Joe: Yes, that's not until June 24th. That's the itinerary for the whole year, see?

Interviewer: What's a Brother's [00:08:00] Dinner?

Joe: It's all the members that are--

Billy: That's what a--

Joe: Family.

Son: Free thank you dinner for everybody that's donated, every member free of charged.

Joe: End of the year. Yes, it's all free.

Interviewer: Those are about the-- Are there any other festivals throughout the year like in the winter is there anything?

Son: Only the Holy Ghost is the big one.

Joe: They have Portuguese clubs.

Interviewer: All the religious events too are probably celebrated in the church. I'm just curious.

Joe: Yes. [00:08:30]

Son: But not as a group.

Interviewer: Not as a group?

Son: For the society itself, only Pentecost is the big one. They used to have a Christmas party for the kids, but there again it's like if they--

Joe: They've give away $1,000 worth of stuff. [unintelligible 00:08:44]

Son: You got Tonka trucks and the whole nine yards then.

Joe: I used to go down there and put up the bells, put some bells and decorate a tree.

Son: It's going to change. Pretty soon the tree costs $100 and you have to have them Scotchgarded, and [00:09:00] all these things that come with the change of time.

Billy: [unintelligible 00:09:02] little kids and [crosstalk]

Interviewer: The big thing is that there're be preparing the food because of the famine [crosstalk]

Son: There's always the meal.

Interviewer: In the home country.

Joe: Yes.

Son: Then they deliver sweet bread.

Joe: One time we used to deliver the meat-- we got about 15 to 20 cows. We'd go to all these people that donated $2, $5, imagine going from here, you got Benicia, Napa, Moran, Helena Bay, there was blood running out of the packages. We had them wrapped early, but sometimes the bone penetrates the--

Son: [00:09:30] That was raw, it wasn't cooked.

Interviewer: This was after it took four or five days to get the cows to the place.

Joe: Right. So many come out, and then eat food at the hall. They say the [unintelligible 00:09:43] the catara and all we do now-- If somebody donates they'll give them a sweet bread. It's a hell of a lot cleaner, it was a mess.

Interviewer: How many members do you have in the Sausalito?

Joe: About 250.

Interviewer: That's a lot.

Joe: I belong to the [00:10:00] Nevada, I've belonged to Pelum, I've belonged to Sebastopol.

Son: You've belonged all over [crosstalk]

Joe: Yes. This one here, when you die you get $200, and the one in Nevada-- No, they had a thing--

Son: It's like a life insurance [crosstalk]

Joe: They had a policy. That was $200.

Billy: Just a member [unintelligible 00:10:21] in Nevada [unintelligible 00:10:23]

Interviewer: Originally did the church in Sausalito have a cemetery with it as well?

Joe: Had a cemetery?

Interviewer: Had a cemetery associated with [00:10:30] it? Was it traditional for people to bury their family on the farms?

Joe: I think Santa [crosstalk]

Interviewer: Or was it tradition to bury in a Catholic cemetery?

Joe: That would be back in the early 1800s. I never heard of any-- There's one in Bolinas.

Son: Oh, our family's done all of it. That cemetery goes back a long time.

Interviewer: All of it?

Joe: Yes.

Son: The [crosstalk]

Interviewer: Oh right the hill.

Son: Yes.

Joe: Left hand side there.

Interviewer: That's an oldie. That's been there for a long time.

Joe: I was there in Bolinas [00:11:00] [crosstalk]

Son: Everyone that we know is [crosstalk]

Interviewer: Sure, on the right?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: [crosstalk]

Joe: I never heard of it. Burial sites here. My aunt's still in there [unintelligible 00:11:10]

Interviewer: I'm just curious because I know that sometimes when families are out in the country, that it was traditional--

Joe: Yes, maybe back in the 1780s or something like that they might've had a little--

Interviewer: It's just one thing that I have to make sure people are aware of in case there's the likelihood that that's going to happen because that's the type of thing where-- [00:11:30] If people come across something like that then they want to know who to consult.

If there's a likelihood of that happening I have to make them aware of it, that's all, because sometimes people are just really unaware of what they can expect. I didn't think it was very likely after, probably, 1900s.

I have a couple of other questions. Early on in your dad's era again, and before, how much intermarriage [00:12:00] outside of people that were from the Azores was there? Was there very much intermarriage outside?

Joe: None.

Interviewer: None?

Joe: No, strictly Portuguese, Portuguese, Italian, Italian.

Interviewer: When you were little, or when your father was first here, any memories of any Native Americans in the area? Any California Indians that were working on farms, or living near farms or anything?

Joe: None.

Interviewer: None that you knew?

Joe: Dad never mentioned to me anything about [00:12:30] it.

Interviewer: Let's see.

Son: You were going to ask him about those two buildings on the ranch.

Interviewer: Yes. I was going to start with the ranch too. Let's see, it's right here. There's two residences. A square one and a long one. Any idea which one was the older of the two?

Joe: Probably about the same because we lived on the left side of the land, and Malcolm lived on the right side. It's right across right where we're at. [00:13:00] In the same barns.

Son: I thought you both lived on the left-

Joe: What?

Son: - and [unintelligible 00:13:02] lived on the right.

Joe: No, no. We lived on the left, he lived on the right.

Interviewer: This is a hay barn here?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Was there a milking barn or something?

Joe: Yes. Right there. You can't see it, but it's right here.

Interviewer: Just to the east?

Joe: Matter of fact, the milk barn was just behind and the cow barn was inside the [unintelligible 00:13:18] and the corral was right here.

Interviewer: A double seated privy?

Son: Wasn't it a two seater? The outhouse.

Joe: I think so yes. When I was little [00:13:30] I could've made a mistake [crosstalk]

Son: I remember.

Joe: [unintelligible 00:13:31] when I got mud all over [unintelligible 00:13:32] my pants.

[laughter]

Interviewer: I bet that was the last time you made that mistake.

Joe: Did you hear about the moron who did this? It was [unintelligible 00:13:46]

Son: I remember when Joe Sanus was there. I remember the animals were still there. It was right behind the house on the right by that pine tree.

Joe: Pine tree, yes. Like I said, the pine tree was five-foot tall. I was there and that [unintelligible 00:13:57]

Son: Well, the tree's still there.

Joe: Oh yes, it's still there.

Son: I think it's still [00:14:00] there.

Interviewer: You were talking about the manure in the creek and other things that were going in the creek.

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Was it real common in all these farms-- If there was a household dump, where would it be normally in relation to where the buildings were?

Joe: I never seen that. There were always plenty of creeks [unintelligible 00:14:15] to have that disposal there.

Interviewer: It would always be in a drainage or garbage dump? It'd always be in the drainage?

Joe: Yes. Nothing like cans.

Interviewer: Right, cans and bottles.

Joe: We used to bury the cans.

Interviewer: [00:14:30] Where did you bury them in this case? This ranch right here?

Joe: I don't remember.

Son: Up on the barn somewhere.

Joe: Might've done. I always threw them in the creek [unintelligible 00:14:39] [laughter] I'd just say that I just worked there.

Interviewer: This was all oat hay in here?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Then these pastures in here--

Joe: Say right here where you're close to [unintelligible 00:14:54] Beach, we used to call it the tollgate field because the tollgate was there. Now it's got brush in there. [00:15:00] We used to plow all that, then next one up-- Everything's on the right side of the creek now.

On the left side is all Banducci's. Then you had another little one, as soon as you go-- You got up the straight there, then you go and around and turn here, there's another little field there. Then you know where we are, with our water supply?

Interviewer: Yes.

Joe: We'd plow that too. Then if you're driving to the-- Before you get to the bridge you look up, it's kind of a square-like, we plowed that. Then right in front of the dairy here, right here is [00:15:30] what I was telling you about right here. We'd plow that. This and right here in front of the-- That was the extent of it. Then Pone, they would plow all this here for hay.

Interviewer: These were all hay?

Joe: Yes. No alfalfa because you could [unintelligible 00:15:44]

Interviewer: How about their buildings? It looks like they had a real big barn.

Joe: Yes, fairly big.

Interviewer: Then, was there water--

Joe: No bigger than ours, but-- They had a little barn, and that there is where they stored the hay, their hay barn.

Interviewer: Is the crossing where [00:16:00] you crossed the stream, is it still there?

Joe: Yes, but the bridge is knocked down.

Son: It's about buried.

Joe: This all filled in with trees and everything. You can see it, if you walk in there you'll probably see where the bridge is. Probably some pilings there.

Interviewer: How many outbuildings were there? Was there one main house or more than one?

Joe: No, just the main house and tool shed, an old garage, double car garage I remember.

Interviewer: What were their first names?

Joe: Joe Pone.

Interviewer: And his wife?

Son: Isabel.

Joe: She's still alive. Isabel.

Son: Isabel.

Joe: She lives in Philly.

Son: She [crosstalk]

Interviewer: [00:16:30] I saw a label De Pone. D-E Pone.

Joe: De Pone?

Interviewer: Yes.

Joe: Yes, I called them [unintelligible 00:16:36] Joe De Ponte there. De Pone, D-E P-O-N-T-E. They had one son [unintelligible 00:16:43]

Interviewer: [unintelligible 00:16:45]

Joe: Joe Jr. She works for City of Nevada in the streets [unintelligible 00:16:47]?

Son: 22 years.

Joe: 22 years, something like that.

Interviewer: How long did they have their farm there? Do you remember when they--

Joe: Well, he died so about--

Interviewer: He owned the land [00:17:00] or was he running the dairy for somebody else?

Joe: I'd say they-- one of the guy's name is Joey Jano. But I don't know if he ever bought it or if he leased it, I think he leased it. I don't think he ever bought it. Matter of fact, I know he didn't. He leased it.

The guy who owned it was a bachelor named Joe Jano, J-A-N-O. Matter of fact, he used to live right here. You know where the Pelican is?

Interviewer: Yes.

Joe: Where the Stop [unintelligible 00:17:25] going right there on the corner where the cattle shoots are, he had the house right there. [00:17:30] It was Joe Jano.

Interviewer: Across the street at the Golden Gate Dairy original-- Any idea of the original owners before?

Joe: No because there was another guy in there named-- [unintelligible 00:17:44] name. [silence] Lunes. He was just a leaser.

Interviewer: This in the '30s?

Joe: Yes, [00:18:00] late '30s. Matter of fact, I think he was putting half in the hay loft where the cows were at and the hay barn, and then he--

Interviewer: That isn't the barn that's still out there, is it?

Joe: Yes. Anyway, he had on the sites, and he'd put too very much hay in there, the cows were in there. [noise] Broke them. It's going to kill-- about 20 cows just broke their back. All that weight come down. [00:18:30]

Interviewer: I don't see any pastures out here for Golden Gate Dairy. Are the pastures out on the [unintelligible 00:18:39]

Joe: Yes, the horses are out in the back.

Interviewer: Sure. That's where they had the--

Joe: Yes. Cattle lots.

Interviewer: Do they have any fields of [crosstalk]

Joe: No.

Interviewer: They didn't have any fields of [unintelligible 00:18:47]?

Joe: None, not sorghum, no. No fields.

Interviewer: Wow.

Joe: He had to buy all that hay. It was to buy feed also, like coconut meal and barley.

Interviewer: Is the coconut meal for the oil?

Joe: Yes. He mixed it with some barley, [00:19:00] and modern vitamins and all that. Now they got Dairy Miss Millie which mixed that already in it. Brings it in, they pump it into a big cylinder, then they just open the chute and slide it to the cows. It's all measured now. It's all scientific and computerized. Yes, really.

Dad, he'd have a cow about two months to go, so he'd just give a little bit of that. She's not producing, you're not going to fill-- [00:19:30] Now a cow that's producing, you give her a big scoop of the feed and more hay. It was a lot of work, that's all I know.

Interviewer: Yes, it's a lot of work.

Joe: Seven days a week, holidays. There were no holidays.

Interviewer: That's right. They're not going to wait. They have to be milked.

Joe: [inaudible 00:19:47]

Interviewer: That's right.

Joe: Twice a day.

Interviewer: 3:00 AM and 3:00 PM.

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: The Brazil's fields look different. How come? Just curious.

Joe: There's between the road [00:20:00] and the creek.

Interviewer: They look darker on this.

Joe: Yes. They would plant beets, sugar beets for the cows.

Interviewer: For the cows to eat?

Joe: Yes. I used to see the old man down [unintelligible 00:20:15] he had a god darn sack, and he'd take it, and he'd be hauling along like that. What a back breaking job.

Interviewer: This was the?

Joe: Tony Brazil's dad and [unintelligible 00:20:26] son.

Son: What was his first name?

Joe: Elias.

Son: [00:20:30] Elias.

Joe: Elias.

Son: Elias. E-L-I-A-S.

Joe: E-L-I-A-S. I don't know. Like I said, he'd just be grade B, he wasn't grade A for milk, see?

Interviewer: The only grade As were your dairy and?

Joe: Grade A and grade B, yes.

Interviewer: The Golden Gate Dairy ws the only grade A's?

Joe: The ones that I recall.

Son: Pone's was B too?

Joe: I think so.

Interviewer: I read somewhere that originally the dairies were producing more cheese and butter, and then later they produced more [00:21:00] milk.

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: What was the reason that they switched over, any?

Joe: More money, I guess.

Interviewer: It was a different way of producing a product too.

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Seems like butter and cheese would've taken a heck of a lot more time.

Joe: Oh yes. Making butter, hell yes. First it was by hand, then they got electric motor, then they--

Interviewer: Did you do that at your dairy, and make butter as well? No?

Joe: Oh, by hand, yes. Mom would mix them, sure. [crosstalk]

Son: For home use not for [crosstalk]

Joe: For herself.

Interviewer: Not for commercial?

Joe: No.

Interviewer: How about back here on the other side [00:21:30] of the Brazil ranch, back where the big barn was. Were they growing something else on this side?

Joe: No.

Interviewer: That is a recorded archeological site, the storage site.

Joe: Really?

Interviewer: For the state park. Well, they had the forethought to do that before the state park put the residences in. There was a neat old redwood-lined well. Really deep at the mouth of the stream.

Joe: Yes, we still get our water way up in there. You know what we'd have? Ever see a [unintelligible 00:21:57] [00:22:00] 10 pounds or whatever?

We'd stick that in the ground, then put the pipe in there, and then put a brick and perforate it with holes so we wouldn't have any stuff going into the thing, then piped it. That's where our water came--

Interviewer: How far up that canyon did you go? Way up?

Joe: Bull Canyon? Yes, up through here. We'd have the spring up here, and the spring over in here.

Interviewer: That's on the west side of the canyon.

Joe: The silt would come in there and fill up the pipes so you'd have to go in there and dig it out. The down here a ways up on the side hill-- [00:22:30] You'd get gravity so it would run from the springs into a 500-gallon tank maybe. Then it'd run into the house and then-- For washing the barns and for home use.

Interviewer: That supplied all the water to that particular place?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: That's incredible.

Joe: I was up there, we had no tank for water when I was--

Interviewer: For storage you mean?

Joe: No, when I wanted to take a bath I used a round tub alongside the stove.

Interviewer: That's right.

Joe: Friday night. [00:23:00] You're talking about having a bath, I'd get curled up in this [unintelligible 00:23:04] little thing like that. Cold as hell.

Son: [unintelligible 00:23:07]

Joe: No heat in the house. I bet you when I was a kid laying in the bed I had 10 blankets atop me. I couldn't even turn over, honest to God. There was no heat in the house. Dogs out in the back, always around damn fleas biting me.

Interviewer: How many dogs did you have at the farm?

Joe: We had about three. Cow dogs, all tied up.

Interviewer: Cow dogs? You mean there were [00:23:30] specifically to keep the cows in line?

Joe: Oh yes. You're damn right.

Interviewer: what kind of dogs?

Joe: Shepherd. You'd whistle at that dog and she'd look at those cows and do after them. We had one dog there who would separate the cows from the calf pasture. They were very smart. They knew how to separate the cows. They knew which ones were supposed to go in and which ones weren't.

Interviewer: Which pasture was the calf pasture? Did you have one specific pasture?

Joe: Yes. It was right over here on the right side. [00:24:00]

Interviewer: Closer to the farm?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: So you could keep an eye on them?

Joe: Yes, just above.

Interviewer: How long did they stay there before they went out with the--

Joe: We raised them until they were about six months old and we'd turn them loose. Make it where they could eat grass or anything, but sell all the bull calves and just keep the females.

Interviewer: How far did Brazil's property go down the road here? Looks like there's more pasture down here.

Joe: Yes. It's the fire trail [00:24:30] there.

Interviewer: Well, here's the road that goes up the hill now, the Deer Park Fire Road.

Joe: Right. They were right along the timber here. Right along there some place. I don't know where.

Son: Do you know [crosstalk]

Joe: I remember when we were kids we'd go up and get Christmas trees. Nowadays you'd get shot in the butt. [laughs]

Anyway, I used to go up there and get-- I'd come down with a bicycle. One time my cousin came down on a bicycle and he was going too damn fast, and man, they hit the side of the bank [smack] smashed the front of the wheell. It didn't hurt him.

Son: You [crosstalk]

Joe: But he smashed the God darn front of the bicycle and just came down there [unintelligible 00:25:05] We used to ride up in there.

Interviewer: Now, right down here where the road crosses the stream, there is a concrete bridge now.

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Just on the other side of that is a really nice old orchard.

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Who lived there?

Son: Is that where the [unintelligible 00:25:25] redwood is?

Interviewer: Yes, there's three redwoods there.

Joe: There's lots of them [00:25:30] on the right side there, the side hill there.

Son: I remember a building there [inaudible 00:25:32]

Interviewer: Yes, but they're way up high. I'm talking about right down by the stream.

Son: Right down to the road?

Interviewer: It would really help me if you knew.

Joe: This is going too far back. I can't remember who else were there.

[crosstalk] One of the names was Hopper, H-O-P-P-E-R.

Son: Right past Manuel and Mary's place, about two turns up on the left.

Joe: Past the dairy?

Son: Right there on the road. Past their dairy. Past Manuel and Mary's house.

Joe: [00:26:00] Yes, Brazil.

Son: [crosstalk] Going towards Muir Woods, about two turns up right on the left side. Right there on the road.

Joe: Where the rock bar used to be, where the CC Cam used to work?

Son: Yes.

Joe: I never noticed any--

Son: There's a shed thing now. I thought those old [unintelligible 00:26:12] used to lived there.

Interviewer: I'm thinking a little bit farther. Right before you get to the entrance to the monument, on the right hand side.

Joe: Oh, that's up where the Chinese [unintelligible 00:26:22]

Billy: Where all those apple trees are?

Interviewer: Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.

Son: Yes, there's a little bridge there.

Joe: Yes.

Son: There's old apple trees on the right before you get to all the bud lice.

Joe: [00:26:30] That's where the Bates live, isn't it?

Interviewer: No. Janette's up a little farther.

Son: No, Janette's up a little farther.

Joe: You mean from the bridge to the dates on the right hand side?

Interviewer: Yes, but right after that.

Son: This is right at the bridge.

Interviewer: Right at the bridge.

Son: Right at the bridge on the right.

Interviewer: Some of those apple trees are this big around. I figured [crosstalk]

Son: That thing [unintelligible 00:26:46] has 5,000 apples on it.

Joe: I knew a girl, she was about my age, her name was Hopper, last name. This house is hers because there's three or four houses there, so I don't know. [00:27:00] [crosstalk]

Interviewer: Then the next ranch would've been all the way up at the Deere's place, right?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Was there anything in between?

Joe: Of more dairies, no. Brazil's the last one on the left hand side. Pones, then ours and then Golden Gate-

Interviewer: Golden Gate.

Joe: -Banducci's there.

Interviewer: Banducci's. How about at the mouth of where--

Joe: [unintelligible 00:27:16] and so was the White Gate ranch, and there's a lot along the Bliss Lagoon.

Interviewer: How about along Green Gulch? Anything along there?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: Was that also Portuguese as well?

Joe: No. Yes, [00:27:30] one time.

Interviewer: Before Will Wright bought it, of course.

Joe: Yes, that was called Bella Beach and it was the same area. I've heard of the names, but I can't think if it was Portuguese.

Interviewer: That's okay. If you think of it, let me know. It's not important now.

Joe: That was a dairy there too. I know [unintelligible 00:27:49] grade B wasn't grade A. We were the first grade As in here.

Interviewer: Did you have to petition for it? Did you have to [00:28:00] have people come down and check the product?

Joe: I was eight years old. I don't remember stuff like that.

Interviewer: Today, what do you have to do in order to have that?

Joe: You have to have a contract first thing off the bat. 20 cans, 30 cans, 40 cans. They don't come cheap. It's like buying a liquor license.

Now they're [unintelligible 00:28:18] 10 years ago you couldn't buy it unless somebody ran out of business, then you could buy the license. Same way now. If somebody sells the dairy, the guy that's going to buy it, he wants to make sure that he gets the contract. [00:28:30] Otherwise [unintelligible 00:28:30] who's he going to sell the milk to? You've got to have a contract.

Interviewer: Do you remember early on when you were first tier people having to leave because they couldn't make it because they couldn't sell enough, or everybody seemed to be able to--

Joe: Yes. Everybody just got by.

Interviewer: That's good.

Son: Well because everybody was small potatoes. There wasn't any big guy around who'd buy everybody out. There was no monopolies anywhere.

Interviewer: That's right. What happened when Foremost bought out Marin Dell? [00:29:00]

Joe: Just continued on.

Interviewer: Just continued on?

Joe: Like it was. Yes. There was no change, or we want this, we want that. It was the same.

Interviewer: What year was that again, 19?

Joe: Foremost, I'd say in the '50s. '55, '56 when Foremost bought out Marin Dell.

Interviewer: When did the dairies start to close in this particular valley? [00:29:30]

Joe: What time was all that?

Son: [unintelligible 00:29:37] my age, 38, she was 13 when they left. 27 years.

Joe: He's had a dairy business earlier before that out of [unintelligible 00:29:45]

Son: 27 years. I'd say 30 years anyway. When I was little, they didn't even have milk cows anymore, they just had a couple for the house. Probably 40 years.

Interviewer: They ran beef cattle after the dairies closed?

Son: Yes.

Joe: Yes. Like we did. [00:30:00]

Son: The dairy, I remember when we went up they had a couple cows just for their own milk. They had six kids, so that's what they used it for. They had more big time stuff. Sure. I'm getting close to the big 40 so it's got [unintelligible 00:30:14]

Interviewer: They were the first ones to close up?

Joe: [crosstalk] The last.

Interviewer: Well, the last ones.

Son: Between sixth grade--

Interviewer: Who were the first ones to close up?

Son: They waited until [unintelligible 00:30:26]

Joe: Let's say Banducci's.

Son: I remember they moved in the summertime [00:30:30] because she [unintelligible 00:30:31]

Joe: Banducci's then us, then Pones then Golden Gate.

Interviewer: Did Golden Gate go right from being a dairy into a horse farm or was there something in between?

Joe: No, that was it.

Interviewer: At Slide Ranch, there was a period where after Joe left, it was bought by the Nature Conservancy. Is that correct?

Joe: Yes.

Interviewer: [00:31:00] Then it wasn't really used for a while and then--

Son: I think there was just the caretaker guy living there.

Joe: Yes, there was. Kids come out there and see the chickens and the goat and something like that. They're all excited seeing stuff like that. [unintelligible 00:31:12] Town [unintelligible 00:31:13] say that.

Interviewer: I'm sure I have a million other questions, but I can't think of them now. I want to give you guys a break. It's been quite an evening.

I really appreciate all the help and there's a lot of information here. I'm sure I'll have other questions.

Joe: Glad we could help a little bit anyway.

Interviewer: Oh, [00:31:30] I think you helped an awful lot. The picture of this is that, that this was a real active place till the '50s as far as dairy farming. Then there was a switch over.

Joe: They had a big tavern down here. They tried to make a go of it. They tried wrestling, they tried roller rink, they tried dancing.

Interviewer: Right down here at the beach? I heard about that, but wasn't it destroyed by a fire?

Son: Yes. With the telephone [unintelligible 00:31:54]

Joe: [unintelligible 00:31:54] Cabins that had-

Son: Right there.

Joe: -seven cabins.

Son: Where the porta-potties are along the [unintelligible 00:32:00] [00:32:00] Seven or nine of them.

Joe: The [unintelligible 00:32:04] come up there and moved some around.

Son: Yes. Moved some around. [laughs]

Interviewer: Was it called the Muir Beach Tavern?

Joe: Yes.

Son: Just the tavern.

Interviewer: Who ran it?

Joe: Dr. O' Brian. Don O'Brian.

Interviewer: Sounds like a real lively place.

Joe: He's a dentist.

Son: He was a dentist, a merciless dentist.

Interviewer: Oh, dear.

Son: Pulled teeth without Novocaine.

Joe: They had a bridge come right out in the middle of the sand here, great beach.

Interviewer: Wow.

Joe: The [unintelligible 00:32:25] come along here, [whoosh] wiped that out. Matter of fact, the pillars are right down here, [00:32:30] down in front of Jules' house. Even look down you can see the pillars there yet.

Son: Some of the pillars are in the lagoon still sitting there.

Joe: This beach is like a boardwalk. You walk straight out like that over the sand, then you walk down into the sand. Now you got to walk over, look further by the [unintelligible 00:32:47]

Interviewer: Right. There was also a tavern up on Muir Woods Road too. You remember that one?

Joe: No, but it was right there where those redwood trees are. There's four or five [unintelligible 00:32:57]

Son: [crosstalk] About Redwood corner [unintelligible 00:32:59] Sharp, right? [00:33:00] Where the dipsy dips down.

Interviewer: Right on the edge of the road.

Joe: Yes. Right on the edge.

Interviewer: I seem to remember it was called The Redwood?

Joe: [unintelligible 00:33:04] a tavern was like a little place where you could stop.

Son: The Redwood Rest.

Interviewer: The Redwood Rest.

Joe: Where you could stop and have an orange or coke and a sandwich. It was real tiny. It was like 20 by 20.

Interviewer: Do you know who ran it?

Joe: I never stopped there. [unintelligible 00:33:18]

Interviewer: How about down--

Son: Then you get home and [unintelligible 00:33:21] [laughs]

Joe: One time I got off the bus, stopped by [unintelligible 00:33:23] Me and my cousin we were about I don't know, 11, 12 years old, I look up and I see this football. [unintelligible 00:33:32] For football, kicked my butt from here to China.

[laughter]

Anyway, I said, now let's get that. Let's get that football someday, we'll get off the bus and I'll-- So we got off the bus to get over there. You know where the hell it was? The top of milk cans laying sideways. Rusty and looks just like a football.

Interviewer: Oh, bet that didn't feel good.

Joe: We had to walk all the way down the road.

Interviewer: Now, did you walk down the Muir Woods Road the way it is today?

Joe: Yes. No. Well I did that day, but everybody-- we got out of the bus. [00:34:00]

Son: She's saying was it the same road as it is today?

Joe: Oh, yes. Exactly.

Son: Just not a paved, that's all.

Joe: No. It was paved. It was paved. When I got home, dad gave me hell. My cousin, man he got whipped like good. Uncle Jimbo gave Joe a spanking. Never mind. Take care of you [unintelligible 00:34:20]

[laughter]

If you ask for a [unintelligible 00:34:24] son, forget it.

Billy: People were too busy trying to survive.

Interviewer: Yes. It was a matter [00:34:30] of survival.

Billy: It wasn't that they were [unintelligible 00:34:32]

Joe: Now, I go pick these houses, a guy's got $5,000 worth of toys for the kids. I'm telling you. Fancy toys.

Billy: Things were different.

Joe: Shoot. Yes.

Interviewer: Things are different.

Joe: Yes. They are.

Interviewer: Doesn't mean they're better or worse. They're just different. That's all.

Joe: Oh, yes. I thank God that dad makes me that way. I appreciate the value of things. There's a lot of days guys have kids walk around with $20 in their pockets. I was lucky if I got 10 cents to buy a hot dog on [00:35:00] Friday at he Old Mill School, there was a little canteen there. My dad gave me a nickel or a dime. That's what it cost. I was a big shot then.

Son: Was it time to get into the Sequoia Theater?

Joe: Yes. Until I was a junior, cost me a dime to get into the theater. I should've been paying 25 cents when I was a high school junior, but I was small, so I used to get in free. Made sense.

[laughter]

Interviewer: That was a big night.

Joe: Oh, yes.

Interviewer: I even remember when things were like, when you go to the movies on Saturday for a nickel. [00:35:30] It's like, what happened to that?

Son: They'd laugh in your face now.

Billy: $6, $5.

Shirley: Six.

Billy: Six?

Shirley: $6.

Interviewer: Down near the entrance of the monument there was one other tavern. Have any recollections of that at all?

Joe: Yes. It's still standing there.

Interviewer: There was one right next to it too.

Joe: Man named Mr. Montgomery owned that. It was called the Muir Woods Inn. [00:36:00] They served dinners there and soft drinks, and Redwood they call them like these guys, soda and stuff like that. [unintelligible 00:36:15] The first one I remember [unintelligible 00:36:17]

Son: Is that the same Mrs. Montgomery that leased the inn now?

Interviewer: Yes.

Son: That's what I thought.

Interviewer: Next to that one--

Joe: Chelsea Montgomery I think her name was Chelsea Montgomery?

Interviewer: Yes. Next to that one was a dance hall [00:36:30] called Original Joe's.

Joe: Yes. Vaguely I remember that name. Like I said, I was doing [unintelligible 00:36:38] I was busy [unintelligible 00:36:42]

Interviewer: Apparently they were serving liquor during the Prohibition. Underhanded. I was curious.

Son: They didn't pass the word around too much about that place.

Interviewer: No, it got so lively that they had to close them down on weekends because it got to be--

Son: Too many people heard about it.

Interviewer: Too many people heard about it. Yes. It wasn't like a speakeasy where you could keep it quiet.

Billy: This one's pretty [00:37:00] loud down here from what Joe [unintelligible 00:37:01]

Son: Joe, can you have somebody [unintelligible 00:37:03]

Billy: No. Down here, the one that used to have--

Joe: Oh, the tavern.

Son: I remember Joe Sanas because kids could go in there too in the tavern.

Joe: Another thing they tried was roller skates too, but they [unintelligible 00:37:12] roller skates.

Son: Joe Sanas went in there. He was a real prankster. Always pulling something. He went riding in there on his horse one day, right inside.

Joe: Yes.

[laughter]

Son: Up to the bar on his horse.

Joe: [unintelligible 00:37:26]

Interviewer: When did that first open up, down there at [unintelligible 00:37:29] [00:37:30]

Joe: It was there when I was here. I don't know who the owner was then, but after we moved out of here, this Dr. O'Brian bought it. I don't know who was there before that.

Interviewer: When was the last year it was over?

Joe: Geez. I don't know.

Son: I'd say between '55 and '60.

Joe: I don't write this stuff down, so it's hard to--

Interviewer: No, that's okay. Just the remembrance [00:38:00] is fine. Thanks. I really appreciate it.

Son: Reckon we did pretty good, Joe.

[00:38:06] [END OF AUDIO]

Muir Beach 1928 — Muir Beach, 1928
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 32470

"We just called it Muir Beach. Frank’s Valley, they started calling it there, I don't know, some time ago, I guess a long time ago, but we just called it Muir Beach." - Earl Van Note

Earl Van Note

Earl Van Note Discusses his time at Muir Beach where he was stationed in the Coast Artillery Corp as part of the Harbor Defenses of San Francisco from 1941 to 1943

Date created:

01/31/2024

Audio Transcript

John Martini:                   Today is Monday, September 13th, 2004. My name is John A. Martini. I am a historian and researcher for the National Park Service, and this is an oral history interview with Mr. Earl Van Note, who was formerly in the Coast Artillery and stationed at Muir Beach during the early days of World War II. This interview is being carried out for the Park [00:00:30] Archives of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. Mr. Van Note, before we start out, I wanted to ask that you understand that this is going to be a public document, and your interview and the transcription, it will be available to researchers to use for research on the history of San Francisco, and you give up your copyright.

Earl Van Note:                 I do.

John Martini:                   Great. Sounds like we're getting married. [00:01:00] For the record, can you give me your full name and spell your last name?

Earl Van Note:                 Earl Van Note, V-A-N, capital N-O-T-E.

John Martini:                   And what's your birthday?

Earl Van Note:                 January 5th, 1919.

John Martini:                   Where were you born?

Earl Van Note:                 In Arkansas.

John Martini:                   Okay. Did you grow up in Arkansas?

Earl Van Note:                 No, we moved around quite a bit.

John Martini:                   Yeah, [00:01:30] go ahead. Where did you live?

Earl Van Note:                 We lived in Texas for awhile, and we moved from Texas to Oklahoma, and we moved, I don't know, I was just a baby, I don't know how long we spent in each place. Then we moved from Oklahoma to Iowa, and my dad went into farming in Iowa. [00:02:00] In 1932 or 1934 it was such a drought back there that all the farmers was losing their stock, so he sold most of the stuff we had left, and we moved to Kansas. We was there for four years. I went through high school in Soldier, Kansas.

John Martini:                   Soldier, Kansas?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:02:30] Yes.

John Martini:                   No kidding. That's an interesting name.

Earl Van Note:                 Right. It was just a small town, but my dad and mother went into the restaurant business. It didn't seem to pan out, so we went back to Iowa. Then we lived there until 1941 when I was drafted [00:03:00] into the service.

John Martini:                   What were you doing at the time you were drafted? You were out of high school, weren't you?

Earl Van Note:                 Yes, I was out of high school. I was working for a grocery store, delivery truck for groceries, then worked in the store.

John Martini:                   How did they tell you you’d been called up? How did they tell you you'd been drafted?

Earl Van Note:                 Seems to me like I got a card, [00:03:30] and I've got that card someplace, but I can't find it. I was to report to Des Moines, Iowa, at such and such a time, such and such a date. And so my dad took me to Des Moines. We was there overnight, and we was able to, at that time we could pick our branch of service. [00:04:00] When I found out, looked on the bulletin board, the whole wall was covered with places that you could pick to go. One of them was Coast Artillery in California, and I so happened to have an uncle that lived in Southern California, so [00:04:30] I thought that was a good place to start.

John Martini:                   When you say the branch of service, just the Army? Or was Navy and Marine Corps and those other people ...

Earl Van Note:                 No, it was the Army.

John Martini:                   Army.

Earl Van Note:                 Army. The Coast Artillery.

John Martini:                   Right. What would your second choice have been?

Earl Van Note:                 Well I didn't give it much thought because I knew right away that my uncle was out here, and I thought that was a good time to get out [00:05:00] and see him, which I did. I got down to see him once, I think, before the war broke out.

John Martini:                   When you went to Des Moines that day, did they swear you in? Were you a soldier that first day? Remember what the process was?

Earl Van Note:                 I really can't remember what the process was. I know that we stayed all night there, and the next morning [00:05:30] we were ... Can't even remember how we ... I'm not sure how we got down to LA, I don't remember that.

John Martini:                   I'm going to guess it was probably a train.

Earl Van Note:                 Probably was train because a lot of traveling was by train at that time.

John Martini:                   Do you remember, did you have uniforms yet when you got there? Did they wait until you got to LA?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:06:00] They waited until we got to our, I guess you'd call it induction station. I think that's where they swore us in, and we got all of our clothes.

John Martini:                   Were there a bunch of you guys that were traveling there?

Earl Van Note:                 There was umm. That day that we got into Des Moines, they had cots [00:06:30] in what seemed to be a great, great big warehouse. There was hundreds of cots in there, and that's where we stayed during the night. I don't know exactly what kind of building, but it was a big, just like a big warehouse.

John Martini:                   Then they shipped you out from there?

Earl Van Note:                 We shipped out from there. They had us going different places, [00:07:00] and that broke us down into smaller groups. I can't remember how many, there was quite a bunch that come to California with me. Course most of them I didn't know because they was from all over Iowa.

John Martini:                   Your destination, where you finally ended up in California?

Earl Van Note:                 Fort Callan?

John Martini:                   Camp Callan?

Earl Van Note:                 Camp Callan. [00:07:30] Camp Callan, yeah.

John Martini:                   Okay.

Earl Van Note:                 We were down there just a very short time. We didn't get too much training because when the war broke out, they just yanked us in and filled us full of shots, and sent us up to the Presidio in San Francisco.

John Martini:                   Let's kind of get the time frame down. When did you get the card saying you'd been drafted, and when did you end up reporting at Des Moines? Do you remember roughly [00:08:00] what the dates were?

Earl Van Note:                 Not really. Not really. It was in ... I can't remember. Probably the first, or the middle of November. I can't remember exactly.

John Martini:                   That's okay.

Earl Van Note:                 I looked for that card the other day, but somehow I think it got put into the [00:08:30] vault in the bank. I don't know why, but it did.

John Martini:                   Keep it. That's an important document in your history. Now you say you weren't at Camp Callan very long, but do you have any impressions of being down there at Camp Callan? What happened to you there?

Earl Van Note:                 I can't remember too much about it because we just took training out in, field training, actually. I can't remember [00:09:00] too much about it.

John Martini:                   What was field training?

Earl Van Note:                 Well, learning how to march ... Well, march and just getting us in shape, I guess, mostly. No, we didn't ... I don't think we even had guns. We weren't there long enough that we had guns issued to us.

John Martini:                   No kidding.

Earl Van Note:                 We didn't get [00:09:30] those until we got to Fort Barry.

John Martini:                   Really?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   It was real basic stuff.

Earl Van Note:                 It was real basic down there. It wasn't, I can't remember even having guns until we got out there to Fort Barry.

John Martini:                   How did you like Army life at first, when you were drafted?

Earl Van Note:                 I didn't.

John Martini:                   You didn't like [00:10:00] living in a barracks with 50 other guys?

Earl Van Note:                 Well, I didn't mind that so much, but it was a lot different life than I had been used to.

John Martini:                   Yeah. So at this point they're not teaching you really anything advanced, nothing about being in the Coast Artillery. This is just basic GI, how to be a solider.

Earl Van Note:                 Yes. Yeah, just mostly service like that, [00:10:30] like you mentioned.

John Martini:                   Do you remember when you first heard about the Japanese attack on December 7th, 1941?

Earl Van Note:                 Yes, because I guess the next morning after that is when they ... We just stayed in the barracks most of the day [00:11:00] and got all the shots that we were supposed to have, and the next day, they shipped us to Fort ... The Presidio.

John Martini:                   That fast.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah. Then the next ... Let's see, we got to Presidio, it was late at night. They took us by truck out to our [00:11:30] barracks. I'm not sure what kind of a building it was that they took us that night, it was dark and late. We went into the building, there was no lights except ... Windows were all covered and everything. We went into the ... There was about 20 of us, I guess, in the truck. [00:12:00] They unloaded us, we went into this barracks, and the first thing that we saw in that barracks was a young lion. It just scared the wits out of us. Oh, I tell you, I just about passed out.

John Martini:                   A real lion.

Earl Van Note:                 A real lion coming down the steps. [00:12:30] All of a sudden then, the trainer, he'd come out. He's at the head of the stairs, and he come down. He thought it was a big joke. It happened to be a little pet lion. Anyway. I didn't sleep too good that night.

John Martini:                   This was after you'd left the Presidio, or actually Fort Barry, right?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   Yeah that was the mascot, the Fort Barry lion.

Earl Van Note:                 Right.

John Martini:                   You [00:13:00] met him the first night

Earl Van Note:                 Right, I met him a hard way. [Laughing] Bozy. [sp?} I can't remember. Bozy? He was a staff sergeant or something, and he thought it was a great big joke to have that lion come to greet us.

John Martini:                   Did you know what was going on? Did you know where you were going? Were they telling you anything, or were they just …

Earl Van Note:                 Oh, they said we’s going to Barry, and that's all we knew. [00:13:30] I can't remember then. I don't remember the next few days. Right away after we got to Barry, they brought us back to Fort Baker, and they was putting out mines in the ocean. I don't know how many of us, but went down there, and we spent ... [00:14:00] I don't know, must have been a couple of weeks or something like that. We was living at Barry on just a field pack, and we'd go out, and when those boats would come in with the minelayers, we'd go out. They'd call us, and we'd take cable, great big cables, and we'd pull it out to the boat, and then we’d just walk [00:14:30] around in circles, and then grab this cable and keep and pull it, and they rolled it on the boat to take it out to lay the mines with. That went on for, it seems to me like it was about a couple of weeks. Matter of fact they even asked us if we wanted to go out on the boat with the laying crew. Few of the boys went out, but I didn't want any part of it. I wanted [00:15:00] to stay on dry land.

John Martini:                   Especially coming from Iowa, that's kind of formidable. When you say you had field packs, did they have you in tents, or in the barracks?

Earl Van Note:                 No, we were in the barracks there, but we just had very ... Just change of clothes, under clothes, and a couple pair of socks [00:15:30] is all we had. It was rainy, we was wet half of the time. We'd take off our socks and try to let them dry. Maybe we'd get them dry, and maybe we wouldn't before the next boat come in. We'd go down whatever time the boat got in, we got up, go out, and pulled cable.

John Martini:                   This is right after Pearl Harbor. We're talking only the first week or two of the war.

Earl Van Note:                 Right.

John Martini:                   Was [00:16:00] there a feeling that something might really happen, that there might really be a battle?

Earl Van Note:                 I can't remember, actually. We had so much on my mind, with sleeping and resting actually, because they’d … all hours, it didn't matter if you’d just got in to rest awhile, then there was another boat come in, why you went out and pulled cable.

John Martini:                   No time to think about [00:16:30] the enemy fleet coming.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   When did you… How long did this continue, working at the mine detail?

Earl Van Note:                 I think it was about approximately two weeks. I'm not sure. Something like that. Then whenever they'd get a chance to get a break, we'd go back down to Barry to the showers, and we could [00:17:00] take a shower and go to our foot lockers and get a change of clothes. There was no hot water. It was all cold water. We had to shower in cold water. I almost froze to death, I thought.

John Martini:                   How long before they actually put you in a real gun battery?

Earl Van Note:                 Soon as we was done with the cable, a couple of weeks, [00:17:30] whatever it was. Then we went right to Smith and Guthrie. We didn't have any barracks there. We slept in, I guess you'd call them, those little square buildings that they kept the ammunition in.

John Martini:                   The magazines.

Earl Van Note:                 Magazines, yeah.

John Martini:                   You were sleeping in there?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   Really?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, they didn't have [00:18:00] any ammunition in there. I can't remember how big they were, but we had three tier beds, and there was maybe one, two, three, four, not more than four or five beds that would fit in there. There was, [00:18:30] I can't remember how many of those shacks there were, but that went on for a while. Then I think they put in some tents for a while so they could get us out of the ammunition bins and put in the real stuff.

John Martini:                   [00:19:00] Wow. It sounds like they weren't really prepared to have this many guys showing up out there.

Earl Van Note:                 It seemed like it, yeah. I'm sure we had, was in tents for, I don't know, for quite a little while.

John Martini:                   What did they have you do when you first got to Smith-Guthrie? Is this where they started to actually train you about Coast Artillery?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah. We got our rifles then, and took training on the rifles. [00:19:30] Went on the range then to practice our shooting. We was then into real training, then.

John Martini:                   Can I ask, were those the old bolt action?

Earl Van Note:                 Yes, the old bolt action, and I was left handed, and it was pretty hard for me to take my gun down. It was [00:20:00] very, very difficult to shoot.

John Martini:                   Were you any good?

Earl Van Note:                 I was good. I thought I got a pretty good shot. I don't know. They give some kind of medals or something, I can't remember anymore, but I got my medals okay.

John Martini:                   At the battery itself, you told me you were in the range finding section. [00:20:30] Did they take different guys and give them different specialties, or was everybody cross trained to do everything?

Earl Van Note:                 I don't know exactly how they trained it, but there was just a few of us that was detailed to the range section. We was their main crew, just the ones that was in there. Once in a while [00:21:00] they'd bring in a different guy or something, I don't know.

John Martini:                   Because that was kind of a specialized, the range section.

Earl Van Note:                 Right.

John Martini:                   It was more than just humping ammunition around.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah. We were on duty, I don't know, it was on eight hours or something like that. There was always somebody in that range station. At night, all night, and all day there was somebody. Matter of fact, [00:21:30] I was on one of the night crews for a while. You stayed in that little, small area there.

John Martini:                   Right up above the guns?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, seemed like it was right behind them.

John Martini:                   Yeah, sometimes that's called the battery commander's station.

Earl Van Note:                 Right.

John Martini:                   [00:22:00] What were you doing up there at night?

Earl Van Note:                 I can't remember. Not too much of anything, mostly, just trying to keep our eyes open, if we could see any light out or anything. Anything that was moving, why, you had to check in on it, call a guard and have them go and check on it. You couldn't leave the station. You had to stay there. You was supposed to be [00:22:30] watching.

John Martini:                   Watching both around the battery and out at sea?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, if you could see any lights out there, why, then you'd have to report it because you didn't know what it was.

John Martini:                   One of the photographs I brought, for the tape reference this is image number one, this shows a bunch of guys there in the battery [00:23:00] commander's station at Smith-Guthrie.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah. I think this was Smith, wasn't it?

John Martini:                   Sure was.

Earl Van Note:                 Smith and Guthrie?

John Martini:                   Yeah.

Earl Van Note:                 This was the main station there.

John Martini:                   There's several guys in the photographs. Can you ...

Earl Van Note:                 About five. Five or six was your whole crew.

John Martini:                   Do you remember what the specific duties were, why there were five guys [00:23:30] up there?

Earl Van Note:                 I'm not sure what the technicality was of it, but they had to have five people there, or six, so that there was two on guard at night out in the base end station. There was more than that, but I can't remember exactly how many because [00:24:00] two had to be on guard at night.

John Martini:                   Okay. On the scope, though, there was one guy who would be looking through the scope, right?

Earl Van Note:                 Not necessarily, unless you'd see something that you had to really get out and look through the scope to see, if that would help.

John Martini:                   At a station like this one, right near the guns, [00:24:30] in the middle of night, it must have been cold and dreary up there?

Earl Van Note:                 It was.

John Martini:                   Would you be by yourself?

Earl Van Note:                 No. Out in the station it was always two guys there. Matter of fact, it seems to me like we had some kind of a little heat in there. We finally made a [00:25:00] little screen, not screen, but with a glass in it, and left one of the doors open so that you could see out. Then it would keep some of the heat inside, too.

John Martini:                   I see.

Earl Van Note:                 They had little doors all, individual doors, around the side of those.

John Martini:                   You mean like little shutters that dropped down?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   Okay. [00:25:30] So you tried to keep the heat in that way.

Earl Van Note:                 Keep a little bit warm that way.

John Martini:                   Yeah. If you were up there, basically it was a guard post, it was a lookout at the battery proper. Not talking about Muir Beach yet.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   Okay. What kind of training did they give you for this kind of technical duty? What did they have you do to learn how to actually do the range finding?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:26:00] They just worked us right out there on those dry runs. We'd do that all the time. That's how we'd learn to operate those.

John Martini:                   When you say dry runs, what do you mean?

Earl Van Note:                 There was no target out there, but you had to make believe there was, and turn your scope so if you had to move it around. That's [00:26:30] kind of training that we had.

John Martini:                   Did you ever follow fishing boats and merchant ships just for practice?

Earl Van Note:                 I can't remember. Not doing much while we ... Some times we'd take a look and see what we could see out there.

John Martini:                   How long were you physically right there at the battery before they put you in one of the remote base stations?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:27:00] I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that because the first sergeant come to me one day and wanted to know if I wanted to go out to base station. This was after another incident we'd had, and I said, "Well, I don't know. [00:27:30] What have I did, or what didn't I do that I should have done?" He gave me a little bit of ideas, and so I grabbed it. I went out. Before we got any barracks built, they [00:28:00] had to scoop off the side of the hill to make level places down below, behind the gun emplacements.

John Martini:                   Oh it’s at Barry.

Earl Van Note:                 It was steep there, real steep.

John Martini:                   This is while you were living in tents or whatever.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah. One day the battery commander had everybody fall out. He had something to tell them. I had just got [00:28:30] off duty, I'd been on all night. He said, well, he says, "You guys have been working pretty hard with shoveling out there." He said, "Fort Baker has a team of mules with a scraper." He says, "Is anybody here that can handle them and will volunteer?" I [00:29:00] think it was a guy by the name of Mankie [sp?] I think, he held up his hand. "Oh yeah," he said, he was a mule skinner. "Okay," he says, "You want to try it?" "Hell yeah." So I went on down and ate breakfast, and he took the guy down to Baker. Pretty soon, he come back with the team of mules and the scraper. They hitched up the scraper. I was down [00:29:30] at the mess hall, I wanted to see what was going on if there was animals involved, so I watched. He took them down there, and there was one guy to drive, and they had two guys on the shovel handles to fill the scraper.

                                           It went along, and he wasn't doing too good. Finally the mules went over the bank, [00:30:00] down over the bank with the scraper, driver, and the whole works. They got him back up on the ridge, and the battery commander didn't say too much about it. He just kind of ... You know. Anyway, they did it another time, and they got down again. He called [00:30:30] them up and he says, "You guys can't handle these mules. Take them back." I saw, you know, I think I'll go try that. I thought about it, and I went up, and I said, "Sir," I said, "I think I can handle that." He looked at me. I weighed about 170 pounds then, or 75. He says, "You think you can?" I said, "Yeah, I think so." "You want to try?" I says, "Yeah," and he says, " [00:31:00] Okay. Give those mules to Van Note." I went up and unhooked them, hooked them on the scraper, drove back down there to the ground, and he had me stop. "You know what to do?" I said, "Yeah, I was watching from up there. I was watching what was going on." He ...

John Martini:                   I got to turn the tape over. This is good.

John Martini:     Continue.

Earl Van Note:   I said, "Yes sir." I said, "I know." He says, "How many men do you want to help you?" I looked at him and I said, "Nobody." "Oh, okay." I drove on down to where I supposed to start scooping and [00:00:30] flipped the scoop over and took a line in each hand and a handle in each hand and I filled a scraper and filled it clear full with soft sand. I took it down and I drove it along the side. They stayed away from the banks so the mules wouldn't decide they had to go over there all the time. So I didn't get the dirt over there. I went and drove around and [00:01:00] did it a couple of times. Finally they got the idea that they were supposed to stay up on top.

                             I worked for a little while and I got a little bit too close to the edge with one of them. The one next to the bank, the jenny mule, she went over the bank. I let her go and went down a little ways and flipped them back and went back [00:01:30] on up and drove up. The battery commander was standing there. I stopped and I said, "Well I guess I'm not doing too good." He says, "You're doing great." He says, "Keep going." I worked for about an hour I guess and the mules got warm and stuff. He stopped me and he says, "What's your job?" I said, "In the battery commander's range section." He says, "Do you want [00:02:00] to try to take this job over?" I said, "I will." He said, "Okay." He says, "You've got nothing to do but to come out and teach these guys how to work them," but he says, "And don't try to do it yourself, all of it." He said, "Let these guys learn and do it." I said, "Yes sir."

                             That was what got me a few weeks later after we finished, I guess it was quite a while, but a few months [00:02:30] to scoop all that out. Then when the first sergeant come and asked me if I wanted to go to the base station. I said, "I don't know." I didn't know what I did wrong. He says, "Well," he says, "I'll tell you." He says, "The people at the restaurant has a horse out there that nobody can ride. They wanted to know if you wanted [00:03:00] to go out and try to ride him in your time off." I said, "Yeah." I said, "I'll go."

John Martini:     That's how you got to Muir Beach?

Earl Van Note:   That's how I got -

John Martini:     They had a horse they wanted broke in?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. In my days off, or in my time off, I'd go down and I'd ride this horse. It was a wild ... It was a mustang. I rode him then til they drew us back [00:03:30] in the company to ship us out.

John Martini:     You were basically being sent to Muir Beach was, kind of ... That was a reward.

Earl Van Note:   Yeah.

John Martini:     Just for the reference, when you were doing that construction with the mules and all that scraping, what were you constructing back there?

Earl Van Note:   To build the barracks. They built barracks, [00:04:00] I don't know how big they ... They were long and two of them, so it took a long stretch of bank that had to be moved so that took us so long to do that.

John Martini:     One guy described them as being a couple of railroad cars, long and narrow.

Earl Van Note:   Yeah, right.

John Martini:     Yeah, just dug in down there.

Earl Van Note:   It was interesting. That part I liked.

John Martini:     Had you learned how to handle animals when you were working on the farm?

Earl Van Note:   [00:04:30] I worked, when I was a kid, with my dad on the farm. I guess I was driving horses when I was about two years old with my granddad, two or three years old. I'd stand in front of the wagon and he'd give me a line in each hand. I always wanted to drive. He'd give me a line in each hand and tell me how to pull which one and [00:05:00] pull the other one and let them go straight. My grandmother used to tell the story that we was just going some place and I was driving. Granddad told me to pull, pull, pull old Queen over so we're going to turn the corner. I pulled and pulled and I couldn't make it so I reached over to Granddad [00:05:30] and I said, "Granddad, you hold this line for me and while I pull the other one." She got a big kick out of telling that.

John Martini:     From your description, when they first said you were going out to the base station, it sounded like you thought you were being punished. Was that not considered to be such a great place to go?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. Well that's what I was thinking, what I had done, that I didn't do right or something. [00:06:00] He says, "I'll tell you something that's off the record," but he says, "They've got this horse out there." I said, "I'll go."

John Martini:     What was it like out there at Muir Beach in those days?

Earl Van Note:   He had another base end station just a few hundred [00:06:30] yards from ours.

John Martini:     Right.

Earl Van Note:   We'd get together, the ones that's off duty, and then go down there for their meals and then they'd go back up and change, go on duty and let the other group come down.

John Martini:     From what you were saying, the stations were on top of the hill where they still are today.

Earl Van Note:   Right.

John Martini:     There was a bar, restaurant down below?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah.

John Martini:     That's where [00:07:00] you guys actually bunked?

Earl Van Note:   Well, yeah, down in these cabins that they belonged to somebody that the government had leased them. They used one of them for a cook house and the two others, we slept in the other two. It worked out.

John Martini:     Just talking about your station for Smith and Guthrie, how many guys [00:07:30] were assigned to the station, that rotated through it?

Earl Van Note:   I can't remember. It was probably around six or seven guys, because we had to stay on duty, two of us at a time. I'm just guessing, but I'd say maybe six or seven of us. Then when my time was off, I'd go down to the [00:08:00] bar and get this horse out and I'd ride him. I really made a good animal for him. It was his wife's horse. From the time I left there, why she was able to ride him.

John Martini:     Do you remember the name of the people that owned the horse?

Earl Van Note:   No. I wished I had of. I just don't remember. That's been over 30 years ago.

John Martini:     Do you remember the horse's name?

Earl Van Note:   [00:08:30] No, by golly I don't. It might ... I've got a picture here someplace of the horse. It might be on the back of that, but I don't know. I'd have to go through that whole thing to find it.

John Martini:     Sometimes people remember the animals’ names better than us.

Earl Van Note:   It seems to me like it was ... There's a breed that has a long curly coat. I think that it seems [00:09:00] to me like they might've called him Curly because he had that long coat. It was a special, special breed.

John Martini:     Was it a working horse or was it a riding horse?

Earl Van Note:   Well it was a mustang, a wild mustang that they got. He probably weighed around 1,000 pounds or maybe [00:09:30] a little bit less but about 1,000 pounds.

John Martini:     Were there many people, even many buildings at Muir Beach in those days?

Earl Van Note:   No. There was a dairy ranch across the road. We got acquainted with some of the ... They had a couple of daughters that they'd come over once in a while and talk to the guys and stuff. I can't even remember their [00:10:00] name but the barn's still out there.

John Martini:     Yes, it’s a stable.

Earl Van Note:   Stable, yeah. They turned it into a boarding stable.

John Martini:     Golden Gate Dairy?

Earl Van Note:   What?

John Martini:     Golden Gate Dairy?

Earl Van Note:   That could've been. I can't remember exactly.

John Martini:     Up on top of the hill at the station, a couple of questions. What did you call the place? Did you call it Frank Valley or did you call it Muir Beach?

Earl Van Note:   We just called it Muir Beach. [00:10:30] Frank’s Valley, they started calling it there, I don't know, some time ago, I guess a long time ago, but we just called it Muir Beach.

John Martini:     Muir Beach, yeah. For what it's worth, the official Army maps called Frank Valley, a military reservation.

Earl Van Note:   Oh yeah?

John Martini:     There were several stations up there. Did you hang out with the guys from the other stations?

Earl Van Note:   Oh yeah. We got together. The guys that was off duty, [00:11:00] they'd get together and talk. There wasn't much to do out there.

John Martini:     I was going to ask, what did you do out there? You couldn't go any place.

Earl Van Note:   Well, I was busy.

John Martini:     Yeah, you were.

Earl Van Note:   I had a good time. I can't remember exactly, but there was quite a group of us. I don't know how many was in the other station, but I don't know, it was [00:11:30] probably 12 or so. There was several, several people over there.

John Martini:     I don't know if they were all used at once but there were four stations up there.

Earl Van Note:   Four?

John Martini:     Yeah. That's why they might not have all been used at the same time.

Earl Van Note:   No, we didn't. We just knew of two of them when we was there. Maybe they got that 12-inch emplacement down there at the bridge.

John Martini:     [00:12:00] Maybe it was theirs.

Earl Van Note:   They may have used that one station then got rid of some of the other ones. I didn't remember any more.

John Martini:     What was it, like eight hours on a shift up there?

Earl Van Note:   I think so, something like that, yeah, eight hours.

John Martini:     You said two guys in the station. What did they tell you to do when there were two of you in there? What were your duties?

Earl Van Note:   You had to be alert and find out if there was [00:12:30] anything moving outside or anything. Once in a while they'd send an officer out to see if we was awake or if we was sleeping or what was going on, but we kept pretty good lookout out there, because we were high. There was not much going on up there [00:13:00] on the hill or anybody around or anything. We kept pretty good look on it.

John Martini:     Were you looking through the scope or were you looking just out through the big slit?

Earl Van Note:   We just looking out through windows. Depending on if it wasn't too cold, we'd leave a couple more windows open. You could see easy. You could sit on that bench and lean over and just look around. [00:13:30] If you could hear something outside, well then you'd lift up the little door. There was a big iron door that you would lift up to see if you could see what was going on or what it was.

John Martini:     At the stations they had a long, narrow visor with a big steel lid that was counterbalanced that opened and closed. Were there glass windows inside?

Earl Van Note:   [00:14:00] No.

John Martini:     That was just it?

Earl Van Note:   No, we built one. I don't know, but one of the guys was kind of handy and he went down to some place and he got some boards and he got some glass of some kind and he made a glass window that fit in there. When we'd leave it open when it was cold we'd put that glass in and [00:14:30] you could see out through it.

John Martini:     Most of the time you kept the visor closed?

Earl Van Note:   Well, yeah. If it was cold we kept most of the others closed.

John Martini:     How did you see out?

Earl Van Note:   Well, we had to leave one window open. One of those little doors ...

John Martini:     [00:15:00] This one in photo one?

Earl Van Note:   It doesn't show any of the ... Over here where this glass is, the scope is, it was about so far from the outside wall and about, I'd say, maybe these doors [00:15:30] were two, two and a half feet. They're steel. They'd open separately.

John Martini:     I know the type you mean. Some stations had little steel doors. Some had the entire front was one huge hinged piece and it just came up and down like a garage door.

Earl Van Note:   Oh yeah?

John Martini:     Yeah.

Earl Van Note:   Ours, all of the ones that the station that I was in, was all just single doors.

John Martini:     Gotcha. [00:16:00] They had bunks inside them, hanging from the walls in some pictures.

Earl Van Note:   We had one small single bed in our station there. One guy could lay down for a while and then the guy that was up, he'd get sleepy, he'd call this [00:16:30] guy and he'd get up and he'd stand watch then. It was not much room. There wasn't any room actually behind there, just this little bed with a place to sleep during the day with the two men there.

John Martini:     Now if you'd spotted something ... Say you looked out there and you saw a Japanese battleship showing up. What were you supposed [00:17:00] to do?

Earl Van Note:   We was supposed to get on the phone and let people know there's something out there going on and find out what it was and so on.

John Martini:     Would the guys that were off duty, would they come up to the station too?

Earl Van Note:   Oh yeah, if there was something going on we'd send down for one of those guys and the rest of them to get up there. I can't remember [00:17:30] now. We might've had some of these portable phones down at the sleeping quarters.

John Martini:     Right.

Earl Van Note:   They had one up there at our station.

John Martini:     Those old fashioned crank field phones?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. They're little square phones like that.

John Martini:     That's when you wanted ... Seriously, if you were having target practice or if a real attack had come, you'd want [00:18:00] the entire section in there, correct?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. You want the whole crew up there.

John Martini:     Right. Inside the station, do you remember how many telescopes you had?

Earl Van Note:   Oh, there was only one telescope. It was a big one that ...

John Martini:     The one that ... For reference we'll call this photograph number two.

Earl Van Note:   Two men, yeah.

John Martini:     This is one of the two men looking through the telescope.

Earl Van Note:   [00:18:30] No, there's ... No. See, this is an older one, but we had bigger ones that looks like they were bigger and longer. There's only one guy that looked through the scope at a time. He'd get tired of watching and squinting and stuff, then he'd let the other guy change off with [00:19:00] him.

John Martini:     You just decided on your own? It isn't like you had to be on it for ...

Earl Van Note:   No, no. You were just on for a while and then you'd switch guys and stuff.

John Martini:     That's good. For reference in photo number two, which shows the Swayze [00:19:17] Depression Position Finder, that's an earlier model than the one you were using. There was a later model.

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. We had more equipment, or more modern equipment then in [00:19:30] those days than this was there.

John Martini:     Could you see pretty well through that thing?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. Yeah, it was good. It would bring ... Then you could turn, adjust it to your eyes to see what ... Yeah, it was pretty good.

John Martini:     Just because we know so little about life inside of those things, first off, we called them base [00:20:00] end stations. Did you have names for the structures?

Earl Van Note:   No, that's what we called them, base end stations. That was the title that we used then. I don't know if the guys before had them or different names or what.

John Martini:     You ever hear them called gopher holes?

Earl Van Note:   What?

John Martini:     Gopher holes?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah, we've heard them called that, too.

John Martini:     [00:20:30] Was it bad being inside those things or just tiresome? Did you get on each other's nerves?

Earl Van Note:   Well, it wasn't too bad. We tried to change off the two of us. Maybe in the daytime we'd go out and we'd go outside too.

John Martini:     Right.

Earl Van Note:   We'd leave one guy there. You didn't have to sit there all day or all night and look through, but you'd [00:21:00] get up and ... You couldn't leave there. You had to be so you could get down there real quick if you had to, but with one guy or some of the rest of them, some would hang around there because there wasn't much to do.

John Martini:     Did you bring chow up there and canteens for water, because there's no utilities?

Earl Van Note:   We had no ... We had water. We had our canteens. We had water up there, [00:21:30] but once in a while we'd bring something up to eat. During the night or something they'd bring up a sandwich or something like that. We always went down to the cook house for our meals.

John Martini:     Did you have a latrine or anything above ground?

Earl Van Note:   No, I don't think. We just went out someplace.

John Martini:     You [00:22:00] go out to these places and there's nothing there except little buildings.

Earl Van Note:   Yeah, that's it. It wasn't too big a walk down. The hardest part was coming up the hill. That was steep. If a fella had to go to the latrine, why he'd go down to the houses down below.

John Martini:     [00:22:30] How was it set up in terms of ranks? Were you guys all privates or did they have a non-com in charge of the section?

Earl Van Note:   We had a non-com in charge of the section of people that was out there. One of them was a non-commissioned officer, just a sergeant or a corporal [00:23:00] or something.

John Martini:     Right. How often did you get out of there? How often did they rotate you back to Fort Barry?

Earl Van Note:   Well I don't think ... I can't remember taking anybody back unless something happened or somebody was sick or something went wrong. Well then they'd replace him with somebody.

John Martini:     [00:23:30] Didn't you get leave or anything?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah, you could have passes and go out, but then if it was just for a pass, unless I was going to be gone all night or something, then they'd probably send somebody out, but just for the day pass or something, no, they didn't bother to.

John Martini:     You [00:24:00] did get a pass? You could go into San Francisco? What'd you do when you got a pass?

Earl Van Note:   Well you couldn't go. You wasn't supposed to go.

John Martini:     “Here, have a pass. You can't go anyplace”?

Earl Van Note:   You can't go. Nobody, I don't think, checked on us very bad out there.

John Martini:     What about recreation? Every few weeks, [00:24:30] would they give you a few days off to go to San Francisco or anything or were you just out there nonstop?

Earl Van Note:   No, I don't remember ever having time. That was before I was married so I don't ... Some of the guys, I guess, their wives would come out to Muir Beach and they'd go down there and stuff, but I don't ... Well, when we was at the battery, [00:25:00] every Saturday we'd go to Sausalito. They'd send a truck in with the guys that wanted to go and you'd go into the, what do you call it, recreation ... I can't remember what they called it now, but they'd go in there and it had gals there and they'd dance.

John Martini:     The USO Hall or something?

Earl Van Note:   USO, yeah. USO, that's it.

John Martini:     [00:25:30] That was only at Barry. You didn't have that luxury out at Muir Beach.

Earl Van Note:   No, we didn't have that but I don't know. I never got into that. I was out there, well, several months, but I didn't remember how you did it then. If we went on furlough, I guess, they'd just send somebody out.

John Martini:     [00:26:00] How long were you out there at Muir Beach?

Earl Van Note:   I'm not sure, probably close to a year, pretty close I guess.

John Martini:     Wow.

Earl Van Note:   I was out there most of four years that I was in the service, I was out there. [00:26:30] Then when they shipped out our unit to go to Europe, that's where they was going, and they called all of ... Fell us all out. Well, they called us all out ...

John Martini:     Base?

Earl Van Note:   Base, send people in, called them all in there and we packed up all of our stuff. [00:27:00] The next morning they had two or three trucks out there. The captain or the commander, he called off the names and they loaded them in the truck. I don't know where they went but they was supposed to be heading for Europe. They got them all in. I was still standing out there by myself. [00:27:30] I thought, "Gee, finally." I went over and I said, "Sir," I said, "You forgot me." "Oh, Van Note, no." He said, "You go over in my jeep," he said, "You stay there." He says, "As soon as I get these trucks out here," he says, "You're going to go with me." That was Paolini [00:27:51].

John Martini:     Oh, sure. He was the executive officer of the battery.

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. He was the [00:28:00] top kick out there. Anyway, they went and he come over. He said, "We're going to go to the Presidio." He said, "We're going to go to Texas and start training some of the new people that comes in." "Okay." I went over and stayed there for [00:28:30] two nights, couple of days or so.

John Martini:     Continue. You and Mario Paolini were ... You and Mario Paolini, he was just taking you over to Fort Scott.

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. He took me to the Presidio and I don't know, I guess he got transferred someplace [00:29:00] else and I went to ... I did. I went ... From there they put us on a troop train and we went all over the country picking up recruits. Then we went to Texas to, I can't remember the name of the company or the [00:29:30] camp, but ...

John Martini:     Was it Fort Bliss?

Earl Van Note:   Could've been. In Texas, yeah, I guess it was Bliss, yeah.

John Martini:     El Paso?

Earl Van Note:   I think so, yeah.

John Martini:     Yeah, it started out as Coast Artillery in Texas.

Earl Van Note:   Oh, yeah. Anyway, they transferred us to Infantry. [00:30:00] Then we went out on a, I guess, an overnight bivouac, whatever you call it. I guess then I think the war was over. About that time, the war ended. Then, well I had points enough to get out, 16 points. I [00:30:30] figured, "Well, I could go home now." There was about 15 of us, I guess, that had the points. No, they wouldn't let us out. We had to go to Panama. I was over there for, I guess, a couple of months or so.

John Martini:     In Panama?

Earl Van Note:   In Panama.

John Martini:     In the infantry now?

Earl Van Note:   Yeah. I don't know what we was doing there but [00:31:00] we didn't do too much. They said that, whoever it was that told us we had to go for the … get overseas pay ... I said, "Oh, never mind." I think it was $300 for overseas pay. I said, "Just forget it." I said, "I'm ready to go home." No, we went over. [00:31:30] He says, "As soon as you get over there, if you put your feet on the ground," he says, "You can come home," but ... [tape ends]

John Martini:                   This is tape 2 of the Earl Van Note interview. Since you were saying that they told you when you got to Panama…

Earl Van Note:                 We could come back if we could get transportation. But there was nobody, no transportation there and they said there would be a ship come through such and such time and it [00:00:30] never showed up. And then there was planes come through and supposed to. They never showed up, and so finally the Navy come in there. I guess it was a small boat of some kind. [00:01:00] They said well we'll take you on that but we're going on maneuvers out in the Pacific and he says, "You can go with us but we're going to be a few days out there on maneuvers." And I said well at least we'll be on our way home.

John Martini:                   So you were talking about you were out on maneuvers in the Pacific?

Earl Van Note:                 Oh [00:01:30] yeah, well I was sicker than a dog. Oh boy. I forget what they called it. It was a small boat out on maneuvers.

John Martini:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Earl Van Note:                 They had a name for it but I can't remember what it was. And so we finally got home and that was it.

John Martini:                   You got discharged?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:02:00] Yeah, we came into San Diego, I think it was. And I can't remember, we got up here on the bus or something out at this camp that's out in the desert. I can't remember what it was now, what we was discharged from. And so that was it.

John Martini:                   You obviously [00:02:30] decided against being a thirty-year man huh?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, I sure did. Well Paolini was, I guess was, he went in.

John Martini:                   I think he went into Air Defense for a while, missiles.

Earl Van Note:                 I forget what he said, something about you know and he come out as a major. So he should be in pretty good shape.

John Martini:                   What was the highest rank you achieved?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:03:00] I didn't, just a private first class.

John Martini:                   PFC?

Earl Van Note:                 That was far as I went.

John Martini:                   Couple of technical questions. I wrote up a bunch of little odds and ends. We’ve hit almost everything. But a couple of questions:

                                           When you were at the base stations, did you guys carry side arms?

Earl Van Note:                 No

John Martini:                   0r did you have rifles?

Earl Van Note:                 No, we had rifles there yeah. We had rifles but we didn't, well [00:03:30] at one time, and I can't remember why I had it. I had one of these small, not the .30 [caliber], self left-hand rifles.

John Martini:                   A carbine?

Earl Van Note:                 I had a carbine [00:04:00] for awhile and I don't know why but I got the rifle back again. I can't remember why I had it.

John Martini:                   Was that in case of intruders at the site? Or for security?

Earl Van Note:                 It could have been. I can't remember now why.

John Martini:                   When you went up to the site now it's just open entirely. Did you guys have a compound, were there fences or barbed wire or anything?

Earl Van Note:                 No, [00:04:30] Fort Barry there was barbed wired entanglement down at the bottom of the ridge. I don't know, I think it grew up in weeds and I don't know what happened to it.

John Martini:                   Now you said that your whole time you only fired big guns at Smith-Guthrie a couple of times right?

Earl Van Note:                 A couple times. We practiced everyday on them [00:05:00] for so long a time.

John Martini:                   How did you practice without firing on them?

Earl Van Note:                 Just tracking something. We'd find something to track and we'd track it and you know. Make out like we was going to shoot. And so, a lot of times they'd just send a boat out there for us to track on.

John Martini:                   When they actually did [00:05:30] shoot, they fired at a target being towed behind another ship, right?

Earl Van Note:                 Yes.

John Martini:                   What did they have you guys in the stations. What were you doing? What was your roll during a target practice?

Earl Van Note:                 Oh, well.

John Martini:                   How did you operate the scope and all that?

Earl Van Note:                 One guy would operate the scope and I think they had two guys on the arms or whatever you call them. You [00:06:00] know, to set whatever the guy on the scope, he'd take and read some numbers then you'd set your arms on those numbers. That would tell you where to direct your fire at.

John Martini:                   And the guys with the arms, they were back at the gun battery right? They weren't up there...

Earl Van Note:                 No, they were in the base and station.

John Martini:                   Oh, they were?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:06:30] Yeah, part of these..

John Martini:                   [Photo Reference No. 04] Go ahead.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, this guy is right in here. This is an old one, but they had, I can't even see a scope right here. But, [00:07:00] yeah this doesn't have it either. The ones that we had, the scope come out here and there was a numbers on, all around this round table.

John Martini:                   Around the base, yeah.

Earl Van Note:                 And when he read you off a number the first one would be maybe to your right and the second one would be to left and then you'd set this little [00:07:30] gadget to those numbers. And then he'd call and say "fire," that's what directed the gun out to the target. I don't know the technicalities of how it worked but that was what we did with them. And then how it transferred to the gun, I'm not sure about that.

John Martini:                   Those are what they call the Azimuth [00:08:00] Bearings. The angles.

Earl Van Note:                 I never got into that much. I was only on the gun crew once. I guess there were so many guys that was bigger and heavier than I was and those darn projectiles it took two [00:08:30] guys to carry them and put them in the shell. I guess they found out I wasn't heavy enough to carry one. It probably weighed more than I did.

John Martini:                   Not quite but I think it would be quite of a lift for just one guy. Living at Muir Beach out there, they were bringing food to you or [00:09:00] you were cooking down there at your own little mess hall down in the cabins?

Earl Van Note:                 They had cooks in there yeah.

John Martini:                   Real cooks?

Earl Van Note:                 Oh yeah, they had a real cook down there.

John Martini:                   That's a luxury.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, I don't know how many cooks they had but we had our station and the other base end station, the 12-inch one, all those guys went down there for their meals.

John Martini:                   Oh yeah, that [00:09:30] was luxurious.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, that was luxury.

John Martini:                   You were surrounded by dairies out there. Did you ever do, have any contact with the ranchers for fresh milk, butter, or eggs or anything?

Earl Van Note:                 No, not that I know of anyway. I think the jeep used to come out, as I say, everyday he'd come out and bring something or whatever.

John Martini:                   Who was he, in the jeep?

Earl Van Note:                 [00:10:00] I can't remember his name.

John Martini:                   He was from the battery?

Earl Van Note:                 He was a sergeant I think. Sergeant from the battery that went around to all of these other stations and took them to supplies I guess and stuff.

John Martini:                   The way that, you know how the Army is, very much [00:10:30] everything is regimented and there's rules. It turns out that every battery, if they have a base end station 5 miles away or 15 miles away some poor guy had to drive everyday with supplies.

Earl Van Note:                 He had to go out there to get supplies out to them.

John Martini:                   Could you hook a ride with him back if you were on pass?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah if you wanted to go to battery or something [00:11:00] for some reason or another you could go with him. I never did do that because I have my entertainment right there. So, I never...

John Martini:                   What about tourists? Muir Beach today, you know, its full of sunbathers [00:11:30] and everyone else.

Earl Van Note:                 Well there were a few out there at the time when I was out there. But, there was very few, and Sundays and weekends there would be people out there. And I'd ride up … well the beach is long and flat. I'd ride clear up to the rock that come out. It was a long haul [00:12:00] up there. And then come back and after I got this guy working good I'd take him out in the parks in the open space. And sometimes I'd be gone most of the day and just riding. So, that's why he worked down so good because I rode every day. The [00:12:30] sergeant sent me out there. He says, we’ve talked to, whoever the guy was, I can’t remember the names anymore, told him to work out your time off so that you could go down and work with that horse. So then I took, I think I took a lot of times I’d take the night shift [00:13:00] and I'd have all day to ride.

John Martini:                   Did you ever cross paths with the Coast Guard Beach Patrol that was coming up on Stinson Beach?

Earl Van Note:                 No, I couldn't remember of any anyway.

John Martini:                   Yeah, they had a mounted beach patrol that covered from somewhere near Muir Beach all the way up to Point Reyes. They had a little corral and paddock down Stinson Beach but they were Coast Guard.

Earl Van Note:                 Oh. We [00:13:30] probably did some place along the line, but I didn't know who they were or what.

John Martini:                   That would have been a good job for you.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   So what did you do after the war?

Earl Van Note:                 After the war well, I came home and her folks was in the gardening business. So as soon as I was home I went to work for them. I had a job [00:14:00] and so then I didn't like the garden work in the winter time when cold and stuff. So I looked for a job that was inside. I wasn't used to this cold weather stuff you know. Back in Iowa it gets cold but not damp. So, then eventually I got a job with Hill's Brothers Coffee. [00:14:30] And I was there for 28 years.

John Martini:                   When they were in San Francisco, South of Market?

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, down there.

John Martini:                   And you've been living here in San Rafael for 44 years.

Earl Van Note:                 Since 1960. So we moved over here so we could have property to keep my horse on.

John Martini:                   [00:15:00] I couldn't help noticing you were wearing a ball cap that said "Marin Open Space"

Earl Van Note:                 Oh yeah, I patrolled for the Marin County Open Space district for about 20, a little over 25 years ago. Paolini, not the Captain the [00:15:30], the one that was … I guess was no relation or whatever. His wife, when he was superintendent in charge of the open space, his wife started … before they had kids. They had 5 boys or something like that. She rode a lot and so she [00:16:00] and another woman and myself set up a mounted patrol for the Open Space. That has worked real good.

                                           Finally, I got run into Tony Silvera, leases it for cattle you know. And [00:16:30] my son's ex-wife's uncle owned part of Silvera ranch and he kept some steers up there. He died several years ago. I'd go up there when he was moving cattle, he was part of our family, and I'd talk with him. [00:17:00] When he got sick, I kind of took over moving the cattle. And so, then Paolini and I moved them one time and I don't know, I fell into doing that now for the last 25-30 years. And I like to ride and work with cattle. And so then [00:17:30] I start that and then when I moved over here those guys that live you can see that house right through there.

John Martini:                   Across the street.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah, he lived there. He was with the Sheriff's posse. And he saw that I had a horse, so he came over and got acquainted with me right away and so I started riding. He says “ [00:18:00] You need to join the posse.” And I said “I just bought a house here and more money than I ever thought was in the country” so anyway, he said “I'll get you in." So, from that day in when the posse had a call out he'd call me. I didn't have a trailer or stuff like that you know. He said “you've got my trailer, just use it anytime [00:18:30] you want it." So anyway I did with all the years then that he was there. And I rode for about... I joined the posse in 1972 and finally broke down and joined ‘em. So he says, “I want you in there. We need somebody in there that can ride." And he says, “And I want [00:19:00] you there.” So I said “okay” And I rode with them all the time up until ‘72. And well I've still been riding with them.

John Martini:                   Have you ever patrolled for the National Park lands or anything like that?

Earl Van Note:                 In 1980 when that trail-side killer was there? We would patrol out there every weekend. [00:19:30] Well I was in charge of getting the crew from the posse to go out and ride. We'd take two people in our crew and for a while, it was really get riders fine to get out. They love to get out there and I guess be cops or something. Then it got so they [00:20:00] had trouble getting people to go out so I had to go Saturdays and Sundays both. I'd go out there and patrol. And let's see I can't remember the sheriff's name. I can't remember his name now. He said, “Well, you guys run this guy out of here” and they did. They caught him in San Mateo County.

John Martini:                   They put him away.

Earl Van Note:                 He said, “Yeah, [00:20:30] well you guys got the credit of running him out of Marin County.”

John Martini:                   I want to thank you much. This is good, I got some great stuff.

Earl Van Note:                 Well, I hope you got something you can use.

John Martini:                   You filled in some big blank spots about our knowledge there that Muir Beach and what life was like.

Earl Van Note:                 Yeah.

John Martini:                   Thank you very much and this is the end of the interview.

Earl Van Note:                 You're welcome.

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Last updated: April 9, 2024

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The Voices of Muir Woods

"He'd go up to the woods and he'd see different trees, different plants. He'd take a look at them, look over and give you the scientific name of them." - Lawson Brainerd

Lawson Brainerd

"Man named Mr. Montgomery owned that. It was called the Muir Woods Inn. They served dinners there and soft drinks" - Joe Souza

Joeseph Souza

"We just called it Muir Beach. Frank’s Valley, they started calling it there, I don't know, some time ago, I guess a long time ago, but we just called it Muir Beach." - Earl Van Note

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The Voices of Muir Woods

"He'd go up to the woods and he'd see different trees, different plants. He'd take a look at them, look over and give you the scientific name of them." - Lawson Brainerd

Lawson Brainerd

"Man named Mr. Montgomery owned that. It was called the Muir Woods Inn. They served dinners there and soft drinks" - Joe Souza

Joeseph Souza

"We just called it Muir Beach. Frank’s Valley, they started calling it there, I don't know, some time ago, I guess a long time ago, but we just called it Muir Beach." - Earl Van Note

Earl Van Note

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