Letterman General Hosipital was built over time beginning in 1898, it was named Letterman in 1911, and many Medical firsts happened here. On this page though, we can listen to the people who worked at the Hospital and learn from there experiences.
"So, the hospital was also connected to Letterman Army Research Institute. So, we got some training on how to suture and all that kind of stuff. We did things as a nurse in the military that you can't do as a civilian. So, we actually had to learn pretty hardcore medicine like how to dig up a tree and trenches and all that kind of stuff."- Pamela Gayheart-Walsten
Pamela Gayheart-Walston
Pamela Gayheart-Walston discusses becoming and being a nurse for the U.S. Army in the 1970's.
Katie: Okay. Hello, my name is Katie Holt, and I work with Golden Gate National Recreation Area. I am speaking with Pamela Gayheart-Walsten over the phone, and we are conducting an interview for our oral history program. Today is November 7th, 2019. Pam, thank you for taking time out of your day to conduct this interview. [00:00:30] You understand that you're being recorded for the purpose of creating original research information?
Pamela: Yes.
Katie: Okay. So let's just get started with where you were born and where you grew up.
Pamela: [00:01:00] Okay. I was born in Kaiserslautern in Germany. I was adopted by an Army family. And then, I became a nationalist citizen when I was nine in Oklahoma, outside of Fort Sill, Oklahoma. My dad's retired Army, so I grew up as an Army kid. So I lived wherever my dad was stationed, so I don't really have what you call a hometown.
Katie: [00:01:30] Okay. Was it just you? Did you have any siblings?
Pamela: They also adopted my brother and my sister. We're all from different families.
Katie: Okay. And what were their names?
Pamela: Randy and Debbie.
Katie: Okay. So when did you attend nursing school? When did you decide to go to nursing school?
Pamela: [00:02:00] When I got into the Army, because that's where I did my nursing school, was at Presidio in San Francisco. So I joined the Army in '72 and signed up for nursing school. And then, I went to basic training in Fort McClellan, Alabama. And then, I went from there to AIP training at Fort Sam in San Antonio, Texas. And then after that, I went to nursing school at Presidio of San Francisco.
Katie: [00:02:30] Okay. Once you got into the Army, was nursing school pretty much always what you pictured yourself doing?
Pamela: Yes. Yes, it was at the time. I did end up changing careers when I got out, but yeah, that's what I signed up for. Yes.
Katie: Okay. Can you give me a brief overview of your medical training while you were on the Presidio?
Pamela: [00:03:00] Well, nursing school, it's called Clinical Specialist School. And it was a building... I'm trying to think. We could walk to it. The women were in the barracks that were separate from the guys for nursing school, so all of the women that were in nursing school was in one set of barracks. And then, they had another set of barracks for anybody else, women that were medical. And then, the guys that were in the nursing program also had a separate set of barracks. And then, we took classes. They were Monday through Friday all day, and we were off on the weekends. And then we rotated through the hospital. I can't remember what week we were in our monthly reel when we started rotations, but we had rotations through medical, pediatrics, ICU, psych ward which was interesting. And then, the patients were either military or spouses of military or some of them are actually retirees that were in the hospital.
Katie: Okay. Did you go through training with the men, or was the schooling separated as well?
Pamela: [00:04:30] For basic training and AIT, we were separated in the classes. But for nursing school, we were all together.
Katie: Okay. And then, did you end up specializing in a specific area, or assigned a specific ward or job?
Pamela: [00:05:00] Actually, when I finished nursing school, I was stationed over in South Korea. I was stationed at the 121 evac hospital in Seoul, and I started on the medical floor in Seoul, and then I went to the emergency room. So I was mostly trauma.
Katie: [00:05:30] Okay. And then, do you remember what years that was when you went to Korea?
Pamela: [00:06:00] Yes. Actually, I was in basic training from December '72 to February '73 because they're eight weeks. And then, I was AIT in Fort Sam. Because I got to San Francisco in May, so somewhere in there, it was eight weeks at Fort Sam. And then I was in San Francisco in May, and that was from '73 to May of '74. And then from May of '74 to May of '75, I was in South Korea.
Katie: [00:06:30] Okay. What was the general background of the other nurses that attended school with you? Or even, did any of your classmates go with you to South Korea?
Pamela: [00:07:00] Yes. Actually, there was. There was some of us that were in basic training, AIT training, nursing school together, and in South Korea together. But the backgrounds for the students, men or women, pretty much varied quite a bit. Some of us were like E3, and some of them were E5, higher because they wanted to go through Clinical Specialist School. So it really varied quite a bit. It was an equal amount of women and men. That much, I do remember. It was pretty rounded, actually.
Katie: Oh, okay. Did it make it easier to go over to South Korea, going with people that you had gone to school and clinical with?
Pamela: Yes. Yes, it was.
Katie: [00:07:30] Okay, let's see. And then... Oh, go ahead.
Pamela: So the group of women that went to South Korea at the time in '74 were the first group of enlisted women to ever go to South Korea. The only women they had over there were RNs that were officers.
Katie: [00:08:00] Oh, wow. Okay.
Pamela: Yes. And I was one of the first five that got there.
Katie: Okay, wow. Did that affect your job at all when you got there, that y'all were the first group of women over there?
Pamela: [00:08:30] Yeah. We were pretty tight, actually. As more women came over, we were all housed in the same building, the same barracks. So I'd say we were all pretty tight. And the medical people that were stationed at the hospital had a different set of barracks than the women that were stationed that were either in personnel or finance or military police or something like that. They were separate. We were in separate barracks. They kept the medical separate from everyone else because had really weird shifts, so I think that was part of it. Yeah.
Katie: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what kind of shifts were typical?
Pamela: [00:09:30] Back in that time in nursing, the shifts were eight-hour shifts. They were from 7 to 3, 3 to 11, and 11 to 7. And I mostly worked the night shift on the floor. And then when I started working down in the ER, I mostly worked evenings or nights. Here's a little interesting note about the military at that time. Did not have physicians assigned to the ER. So now you have emergency room physicians. We didn't have that back then.
Katie: Oh, okay. So who would be the typical role?
Pamela: [00:10:00] It was called the physician on duty, and they would be assigned throughout... They would get a 24-hour rotation. So we could have a cardiologist, we could have a dermatologist, we could have any physician that was stationed in the hospital had to pull a POD, physician on duty. So the ER was covered by corpsman, one nurse like me, and then on the evening and night shifts, it was always going to be... There was no RN, so it was one LPN, a corpsman, and then we had an NCO. He was only there during the day. And then, we would have one Korean corpsman in the ER.
Katie: Okay. And just to clarify, was this at Letterman Hospital or this was over...
Pamela: Over in Korea, yeah. I never actually worked other than rotations.
Katie: Okay. At Letterman?
Pamela: [00:11:00] At Letterman, yes.
Katie: Okay. So you pretty much were really just at Letterman Hospital for your clinical school?
Pamela: Training. Yes, yes.
Katie: [00:11:30] Okay, let's see. So while you were at Letterman Hospital, did you have a specific daily routine?
Pamela: Yes. Yeah, we had to get up and go to classes every day. That was five days a week. And then sometimes those classes later on became rotation, but they were actually instruction. Learning about medicine and nursing and all of this kind of stuff, so we were in school. That's what it was. Yeah, we were in school.
Katie: [00:12:00] Oh, okay. I know you had mentioned a little bit before. So you lived on post for about a year?
Pamela: Yes.
Katie: And then, could you just describe the barracks again? Like setup and their proximity, I guess, to the hospital?
Pamela: [00:12:30] Well, they were a pretty good walk from the hospital. They were not close to the hospital. The guys' barracks were closer to the hospital than ours was. So we would typically walk to school every day. And we had to wear... I think that picture that I sent shows us in these white nurses' uniforms. That's what we wore. Yeah. White uniforms, a hat while we were outside, girls wore regular hose and black shoes. Yeah, that was pretty funny. Yeah. But yeah, that's what we did because we were trainees. It didn't matter what your rank was. You all wore the same.
Katie: Okay. Okay. So then when you went over to South Korea, I'm assuming the uniforms changed. Was there rank differentiation over there?
Pamela: [00:13:30] No. We still wore the white dresses, and then we were allowed to wear white hose and white nursing shoes. But if you didn't wear the white nursing shoes, then you had to wear regular hose and black shoes. They're all Army issued except for the hose, obviously. But yeah. Yeah.
Katie: Okay. And you said that you worked mostly trauma. Did that uniform get in the way at all, or was that even a thought in your mind?
Pamela: [00:14:00] It got in the way when you were riding in the back of an ambulance or in the helicopter. Yeah, it did. But one of the things I can say about San Francisco that I got to see before classes started, I almost forgot about this. So you know the area on the post that they called Crissy Field?
Katie: Yes, ma'am.
Pamela: [00:14:30] Okay. So actually, they had planes and helicopters there. That's what it was. It was an airport, basically. So while I was waiting for classes to start, because I was considered a corpsman when I got out. After I finished AIT in San Antonio, I was considered a corpsman. So they would take the helicopters out and go around the bay. They were basically patrolling the bay in the helicopters. So they wanted a corpsman to be on that helicopter. So that's what I did. It was kind of neat, actually. So I got to fly around in a heli around San Francisco and the Bay.
Katie: And how long did you do that for before school started?
Pamela: [00:15:30] Probably about maybe two or three months off and on. And then, they had to go take a plane to Palm Springs and bring one back. So I rode on that plane. I was a passenger on that plane. So we flew to Palm Springs to take that plane, and we were supposed to fly another one back to Crissy Field. And the fog came in. It was too foggy so we couldn't fly it back. So we rode in a Jeep all the way back to the Presidio in the fog. Yeah, that was fun. Yeah. I think I got back to the barracks at like 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. But yeah. Yeah.
Katie: Was there anything to do for entertainment on the post while you were there?
Pamela: [00:16:30] Yeah, our favorite spot, which was the NCO Club which is the one across from the church. That was where we went. And they had music and dancing, and they'd have bands sometimes because there was a stage there. And then, the women's bathroom was still the way it was when I was there in '96 in the NCO Club. But then they changed that. I got to get some water here. So they changed that. But what it looked like, it was painted pink, the bathroom, and they had a lounge area. And you walk in and it was a little lounge area, which is where the pink chandelier was. And then the bathroom stalls were a little bit around the corner. So that's the way it used to look in there. And that's where we would hang out. And then, the barracks was right there behind the old fire station, which is still there.
[00:18:00] That's where the barracks were. And there was a bus that actually came there, and we could take the bus and go into San Francisco, downtown and all over. Everywhere. So it was really easy to get around there because a lot of us didn't have cars. Well, we just didn't have cars. So we took the bus everywhere. And then we'd go down to Chinatown, Ghirardelli Square, Nob Hill. That's mostly what we did on the weekends. Some people just stayed back. A bunch of us actually would just go out and just explore the area, and we had a lot of fun doing that. I got a lot of pictures of San Francisco back then. Trolley cars, all that. I even drove down the Crookedest Street.
Katie: Oh, Lombard Street?
Pamela: [00:19:00] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And we walked from the bottom of the hill where the trolley is all the way up to the top of Nob Hill. And then San Francisco, sometimes the streets were so steep. I don't know if they still have them. They probably do. They actually had steps.
Katie: Oh, yeah.
Pamela: [00:19:30] Yeah. So yeah, I went all over San Francisco. A bunch of us would go. Every weekend, we were out going places. Been to the Fairmont, the Mark Hopkins Hotel, the Top of the Mark. Because we were in school every day, five days a week. And then the Mess Hall actually, the one that we went to was at the hospital. And the food was exceptional, and it was really good. And then we'd go out to Golden Gate Park and play flag football, and then go back to the hospital and have brunch because they serve brunch there as well. My husband has decided to get the leaf blower out upstairs. And let's see, what else? Chinatown was real popular. Haight-Ashbury obviously was very popular, and I've been there a few times. And Seal Rocks and Coit Tower, and walked across the Golden Gate Bridge from the barracks with one of my friends that wasn't particularly smart. It was a long walk. So you can imagine... You see where the fire station is?
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Pamela: [00:20:30] Okay. Before it is now, there was a road from there that went all the way down to Fort Scott. And you could walk from there all the way to the Golden Gate Bridge and go across. Or you could walk from the barracks, which is there. You know there's a restaurant there where the fire station is?
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Pamela: [00:21:00] Okay. And you could see the Golden Gate Bridge from that restaurant, and you could see the Golden Gate Bridge from our barracks. I do have some pictures of that. I'm not sure if I could... But I do have some pictures of the back part of the barracks where our picnic area was. It had a little picnic area back there. And then the parade field, which is where we also played basketball and stuff or whatever we wanted to play, was right between the two barracks. That's in the inside, and then the barracks are on the other sides of the cement area.
Katie: [00:21:30] Mm-hmm. Did you stay in contact with any of your school mates or coworkers?
Pamela: Yes. Yes. I still do, actually. One of the ones I'm still in touch with was the one that got married in the church there by the NCO Club.
Katie: Oh, right. Okay.
Pamela: Yes. Oh, yes.
Katie: [00:22:00] Very good. Let's see. And then, could you tell me a little bit about your career following Letterman and South Korea when you got back?
Pamela: [00:22:30] When I got back from South Korea, I was stationed in Fort Lee, Virginia. And then I went temporary duty to Fort A.P. Hill, Virginia, which was about maybe a half an hour from Quantico. So I was stationed up there. It's for the reserve units to come for summer training, so it was real small. It was just a clinic, and they didn't have barracks for the women on that post, so they had a trailer in the back. And there was three girls there. We were the only enlisted women in that whole area at Fort A.P. Hill. It was pretty isolated, but it's a reserve. They have a lot of reserve. And then I got discharged from Fort Lee.
Katie: Okay. And what year was that, that you...
Pamela: [00:23:00] December '75. Yeah.
Katie: Okay. And then, I guess backtracking just a little bit. Influences in joining the Army. Would you say that that came from your family and your father?
Pamela: [00:23:30] Yes. Yeah, it definitely was. And it was also a way for me to go to nursing school, because they just didn't have the money to send us to college. So I signed up so I could go to nursing school.
Katie: Mm-hmm. And then, did you have anything stand out or any events that stood out while you were at school at Letterman?
Pamela: [00:24:00] There's quite a few, actually. Some of them I can't say, but there was a couple of things that really stood out. One of them was that Bob Hope was there for Christmas at Letterman.
Katie: Oh, wow.
Pamela: [00:24:30] Yeah, he was there. The other one was that the movie M*A*S*H had just come out, and they didn't want to show it in the theater. The main theater, the big one, was actually at the hospital. So, the hospital was also connected to Letterman Army Research Institute. So, we got some training on how to suture and all that kind of stuff. We did things as a nurse on the military that you can't do as a civilian. So, we actually had to learn pretty hardcore medicine like how to dig up a tree and trenches and all that kind of stuff. We had to be able to do that. But he was there, and then they showed the movie.
[00:25:00] There was a big protest of them not showing the movie M*A*S*H. So, they finally conceded to the population because the soldiers were ticked off. So, I got see M*A*S*H in the theater there at Letterman. That was pretty cool. And then, the other thing that really sticks out, which is kind of hard to talk about, is when they started bringing POWs released back from Vietnam. Some of them were actually at Letterman, and we were able to sit down and talk to a few of them. They let us know we could do that, so we did. I just remember doing it. The problem is it was kind of traumatic. They're trying to deal with it and we're trying to deal with it. Because my brother was in Vietnam. But that's one of the other things that really stood out was that. Those three things.
Katie: [00:26:00] Mm-hmm. Did you only talk to the POWs as students, or did you actually treat any of them while you were in school?
Pamela: No. As the students, it was kind of off limits for us, so that's why we got to talk to them. And then, he was my patient. I still remember his name to this day, but have you heard of Lou Gehrig's disease?
Katie: Yes.
Pamela: [00:26:30] ALS. He had ALS, and I took care of him. And he was a really nice guy. He was family. I took care of him, and he did pass away while I was still stationed there. And it was hard.
Katie: Oh, wow.
Pamela: Yeah. It was hard.
Katie: [00:27:00] Yeah. Did you as students at Letterman feel any of the home anti-war movement against Vietnam while you were there?
Pamela: No. Uh-uh. Well, they wouldn't be allowed on the post anyway. But it was an open post, because that's how you got to the Golden Gate Bridge. You had to drive through because the road came through the Presidio, and that's how you got to Golden Gate Bridge.
Katie: [00:27:30] I just didn't know if it was something that was openly spoken about. I know seeing that it's an Army hospital, I didn't know if it was spoken about, about feelings about the Vietnam War or...
Pamela: [00:28:00] Yeah. Yeah, we did. Well, some of my classmates were actually Vietnam vets, and then some of our instructors, the non-commissioned officers that were the same clinical specialists, they were also Vietnam vets. So they were all combat vets. Combat medics, I should say. They were all combat medics. So a lot of our training came from that because they had been there. We didn't have that. We had a couple of officers. I remember one in particular. She was a lieutenant, but most of them were what we call the clinical specialists, the corpsman combat. And yeah, we got a lot of our training from that. Yeah, we would rotate through, like I said, PEs, ICU, psych, medical, labor and delivery. One of the guys that I was stationed with, he was working in labor and delivery, and his wife went into labor. Yeah, that was pretty cool. Yeah, that was pretty good.
Katie: Was there a ward that you particularly found the most interesting learning about or learning in?
Pamela: [00:30:00] I probably would say the psych ward because most of them were soldiers. And you had some in there with PTSD, although they didn’t call it that at the time. One of my classmates was having flashbacks at a party that we were all at, most of us. It was out in the country because we used to go up to Napa Valley and Mount Tam and that kind of stuff. And he started having flashbacks, and he had a rifle. And he was out there. He thought he was back in Vietnam. So, we all had to go into this barn. So, a couple of his friends who also had been in Vietnam too, they had to go and talk him down. But yeah. So yeah, I've seen it.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Did you have anything stand out while you were over in South Korea?
Pamela: [00:31:30] They didn't actually say anything about this until years later, but back in 1974, North Korea had built a tunnel under the DMZ. And when they built the tunnel under the DMZ, there were some South Korean and Army personnel that found the tunnel. So, when they went back to inspect it, the North Koreans had already booby trapped it. So, seven people died when the booby traps exploded. And they've kept that pretty hush, hush. That was the first time a tunnel actually had been found. It was all hands-on deck. All of us had to come into the ER bringing people, but that was the end of that. But yeah, we knew about it. Yeah, we knew about it. And then, there was also an assassination attempt on the leader of South Korea, and they ended up shooting his wife. And we had to go on Red Alert after that happened. So that was one of them. Let's see.
[00:32:30] We don't know who he was. They never told us who he was, but he was in an isolated room on the floor, and he had bodyguards. And he was some high official of some kind under anonymous name, and only one nurse per shift could be... He had to be assigned the same nurse for each shift. We never knew who he was. I thought he was a spy, but he could have been. I don't know. But he was under security, and the guards were armed. Yeah. But he was really nice though. He was really, really nice. Very polite. Yeah, he was very polite. But it's a different world over there, that's for sure. Not as hostile that we know of back then as it is now. But yeah.
Katie: [00:33:00] Mm-hmm. Did you feel like you’re schooling at Letterman well-equipped you once you got over there? Or is it something that you just have to learn as you go?
Pamela: [00:34:00] It was a little bit of both, actually. Yeah. And I learned a lot of it from being in the emergency room from... He was a Vietnam vet. He was an NCO, and so he was a Vietnam vet. And then I worked mostly night shift, and it was me, a corpsman, and an RN. We were it on this floor. It was the medical floor. And it's like a lined U. Down one side, backside, and down the other side, and a nurses' station. But medicine was a little bit different over there. So we would run out of supplies, and we would have to make do with something else. Penicillin was locked up because it was on the black market. Yeah. I told somebody, the nurses, and they went here a little while back. And they went, "Really?" I said, "Yeah." Because STDs were rampant.
[00:35:00] So in the civilian world, it was different because I had a different kind of training and more responsibility than what VLP is depending on what part of the country you live in. So it made a big difference. And because of that, I mostly worked trauma. I worked in coronary care for three years, going back to school, but I mostly worked trauma when I was working part-time and going to undergrad. And it's because of that experience that I was actually able to do that. And that's stayed with me for all these years. You had to think quick. When you're working in a foreign country and an emergency room, and even in the medical floor, you still have to stay quick because it's just different.
Katie: [00:35:30] Mm-hmm. You had mentioned that the Letterman Hospital was also part of a research institute. And did you have any involvement with researching at the institute? I think you had mentioned once about published research for the LAIR?
Pamela: [00:36:30] Gosh, I can't remember. It was a long time ago. I was already out of the service. Because I went on graduate school. So I was at a meeting, and there was some guys that were there that had, but they do have publications from LAIR. You'd have to go back and look, but they do. Only thing we used LAIR for was to learn how to suture and some stuff like that. They were dogs, but they were very extremely well taken care of because they were military dogs. So we had to do that. And the other thing that's really interesting about Letterman is the pet cemetery's still there because there was a big fight about keeping it there, and the people won. So it's still there. It's pretty cool though, too. Because that was another place we used to go to. When we were off, we really didn't spend much time on the post. We left. Yeah. But the theater was there, and I actually worked in that military museum there at the Presidio, the one that's right across from what was called the Bowling Alley?
Katie: [00:37:00] Oh, okay. Was it the Presidio Army Museum?
Pamela: Yes. Yes. I worked in there. Yeah, I volunteered. I did some stuff in there. I helped actually put some of that stuff together in that museum.
Katie: Oh, that's so interesting. The Presidio Army Museum isn't there anymore, but we acquired all their objects and documents and things.
Pamela: [00:37:30] Oh, cool. That's something I would love to see. Because I can't remember the guy's name that I helped. But yeah, I volunteered there. Yeah. It was pretty neat. But yes, I did help put up some of the displays and stuff like that. Archiving, documenting, and all that kind of stuff what was in there. Yes.
Katie: Very good. Well, was there anything else that stood out to you or anything else you want to add, or any people? Other personnel?
Pamela: [00:38:00] I'm trying to think. Well, I don't know if you can say this, but you want to hear a funny story?
Katie: Sure.
Pamela: [00:39:00] Okay. So Burt Reynolds, the big guy. So he was actually a centerfold for the Playgirl Magazine or Cosmopolitan or something. I can't remember. I think it was Cosmopolitan. I think. I can't remember. I'd have to go back and look. But anyway, he was a centerfold for that. So a bunch of us, the lieutenant, little staunch, starchy white uniform that the RNs wore and the hat and all that kind of stuff. So a bunch of us got together and we found the magazine that he was centered in. And we took it up. We knew when she was teaching that day, so we waited until we could get into the room, and then we went up there and opened that magazine to the centerfold and put it on the podium.
[00:40:00] And he walks in and he was holding a kid. I don't even want to say it. She had a great sense of humor about it. She about cracked us up. Because she walked up there and she has this stern look on her face. We were going, "Oh my God, we're in so much trouble." And then we all cracked up. But yeah, that's one of the things that we pulled that I remember that was pretty funny. There was some other stuff but that was pretty good. Oh, the commander of the 91C School, they have commanders for different areas. The commander there, my friend that got married in that church that I'm still in touch with, he gave her away. And I got pictures of it.
Katie: Oh, wow. Very nice. Do you remember his name?
Pamela: [00:40:30] She was trying to remember it too. I'm sure she does. I have to ask her. But I've got pictures of him, and I think if I look close enough, I might be able to see his name. But he should be listed as the commander there for the 91C School for Presidio somewhere. But yeah. Yeah. He's the one that gave her away. Yeah.
Katie: Oh, wow.
Pamela: [00:41:30] Mm-hmm. I'm trying to think. I have a lot of memories from there. It was one my favorite places to be. The parade field, all of that stuff, the officer's quarters, the housing. I've been all around that post. And like I said, me and my friend actually walked. Her name was [inaudible 00:41:04] was hippie. I remember that. So, we walked from the barracks all the way across the Golden Gate Bridge, and then we decided to walk back. That's a pretty good distance. The MP comes by, and he says, "Hey, you guys want a ride? Where are you headed?" And she said, "The barracks here." And he said, "Get in. I'll take you back." We said, "I'm never going to do that again." We didn't do it again. She's the same one that I went bicycling with. We got a couple of bikes, and we went cycling around the boat and sat down in this area, not knowing there was poison ivy there
Katie: Oh, no.
Pamela: [00:42:00] Guess who ended up in the ER? Both of us. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's where we ended up, was in the [inaudible 00:41:47] room. But yeah, I got a chance to go to Disneyland when I was out there. I still have my mug that I got when I went to Disneyland in '73.
Katie: Oh, wow.
Pamela: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a cool city. No doubt about it.
Katie: Yes, it is a fun city and it's a beautiful Army post.
Pamela: Yes. And unfortunately, when the state took it over, they didn't keep up with the grounds like it was back then.
Katie: [00:42:30] Mm-hmm. Because you recently visited? Is that true?
Pamela: [00:43:00] Last time I was there, yeah. My husband and I went to California in 2017, and he'd never been to San Francisco so we actually went to San Francisco. And I got a chance to see some of the stuff that was there. But when I went back in '96, the hospital and everything was still there, but my barracks were already gone. But the grounds were immaculate. I'm talking about everything was perfectly trimmed, no weeds, there was no tall grass, the trees, everything was maintained, and I didn't see that. I was kind of sad I didn't see that. Yeah.
Katie: [00:43:30] When you heard that the National Park Service was going to be taking over, where were you living at the time? Did you hear about that kind of transfer?
Pamela: Yeah. I was actually living in Pennsylvania at the time. I had to go to a meeting out in San Francisco, so they gave me a chance to see it, and it was a lot better. I got a chance to go into the officer's club, which I never got a chance to go into. But unfortunately when I went this time, it didn't look the same. It was all the decor. Everything had changed. And no offense to the state, but they made it some sort of foo foo learning place and removed all the stuff that made it for what it was. There's certain things that just need to stay the way they were. Preserve it. But they didn't. Not inside that building. Not the officer's club. Yeah. There's a lot of history there. It was Spanish. That's what it was. Okay. What else?
Katie: All right. I didn't have any more questions unless there was something that you wanted to add.
Pamela: [00:45:00] I can't think of anything right off the hand, but you can always call me or send me an email if you need anything.
Katie: Yeah, of course. Well, thank you again for doing the interview.
Nurses at Letterman
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 17949
"No, at Letterman you didn't have to get up. It was different. But doctors - to nurses, they’re gods. Really you tried to follow their orders, but there were times you had a little conflict" - Irene Zieski
Irene Zieski
Irene Zeiski discusses being an army nurse at letterman general hospital between 1961 and 1964.
Conklin: [00:00] This is Sara Conklin. I'm interviewing Irene Zieski in Stockton, California, at her residence, and today is May 16, 1997. Irene, where were you born?
Zieski: [00:19] I was born in Greenwald, Minnesota.
Conklin: [00:27] And when were you born?
Zieski: [00:29] May 23, 1915. My birthday's coming up.
Conklin: [00:33] Happy birthday.
Zieski: [00:34] Yes, I'll be 82. I survived
Conklin: [00:38] Who were your parents?
Zieski: [00:41] William and Helen Zieski.
Conklin: [00:44] What was your mother's maiden name
Zieski: [00:48] Helen Spaeth.
Conklin: [00:51] Were you raised by your parents
Zieski: [00:53] My father died when I was about six or seven. Somewhere in there my mother was left a widow with two children to support. In those days they didn't have welfare, but we survived. We had a garden and chickens, and I've worked since I was eight years in various jobs.
Conklin: [01:22] Do you have siblings?
Zieski: [01:25] Yes. I have one brother.
Conklin: [01:26] And is he older or younger?
Zieski: [01:27] Younger. One year younger.
Conklin: [01:30] Where did you go to school, and what was the highest grade you attained?
Zieski: [01:36] I went to the parochial school in Albany, Minnesota, which is run by the Catholic Diocese there. Then I went to the high school there which was run by the civilian population ------------- --------, and from there I went into nurse's training. I worked hard to get $300 to become a nurse. Why I became a nurse - I didn't know nurses. I'd never been in a hospital, but I became a nurse in 1933. I graduated in 1936 before antibiotics.
Conklin: [02:19] Please give me a brief overview of your medical training and your Army career as it led you to the Presidio.
Zieski: [02:25] When Pearl Harbor took place, most of my class - we all became very patriotic. I joined the Army, but I tried the whole year of 1942 to get into the military. No one would have me because I was nearsighted. I wrote to the powers that be, and I finally was accepted. I went to Camp Phillips, Kansas . . .
Conklin: [02:56] Can I stop you for a moment? The powers that be. Where did you write?
Zieski: [03:01] I wrote to the dignitaries. There was Omaha, Nebraska, and then to Washington, D.C.
Conklin: [03:07] Dignitaries?
Zieski: [03:08] Like Chief Nurses or whoever was in charge of the Army nurses.
Conklin: [03:13] Thank you.
Zieski: [03:16] So anyway, I went to Camp Phillips, Kansas February 3, 1943. That was quite a revelation. They were still building it, there was mud. I had to buy my own pens and pencils and paper. I didn't have a desk, I had an orange crate. That's how I had to operate on to begin with because it was just opening up. I was in charge of the Psychiatric Wards and the Prison Wards. At that time that was my first encounter with a lot of black people because we didn't have many in Minnesota. There were DOA's as murders almost every night in that black population. They got drunk, and I was never seen with whites and blacks only. You know for the bathrooms and restrooms, and it just amazed me. I couldn't believe it whenever we'd want to have a dinner in the city they wouldn't allow us to bring blacks. So, I said alright, if you don't allow us to bring blacks, we're not coming. We'll go somewhere else. Then my friends were all going overseas. But me, with my glasses, they didn't want me again. So, I wrote again to the powers that be and finally I was accepted. I went overseas in 1944 - January, 1944. I was sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. I joined the 215 General Hospital, and we went by troop train to Captain Miles Standish in Massachusetts. From there we went on a convoy to Scotland, and unluckily I landed on a Puerto Rican fruit barge, and I was so sick, so seasick I vomited almost all the whole way. When I got to Scotland I got out and I kissed the ground. Oh, it's such a horrible feeling. Some of the fellows died from dehydration. Anyway, we got to Granach(sp?), Scotland and I looked out and it was so beautiful. The hills were green and there were flowers and the boat was not rocking any more. So then we were put on a train and sent across Scotland - past Eindenburgh, and then we went down into England with another troop train and we . . . I'll never forget. We went to Robin Hood territory and we heard all the stories about Robin Hood, and then we landed at Devises,(sp?) England in a small village where we were put in homes - because they didn't have any barracks - homes, with local people. My friend Anna - she's dead now - and I lived with a lady, a single lady. She had never been married, and it was so cold. They didn't have central heating. We went to bed with our underwear, our socks - knit socks, sweaters, everything to keep warm.
Conklin: [07:04] You know, I'd love to hear all of this, but we're going to have to wind your way to the Presidio.
Zieski: [07:10] Oh, I see. All right. I better hurry because I've been so many places. Well anyway then the 28th Field Hospital came from Alaska without nurses. So they asked for volunteers. I volunteered to join the 28th Field Hospital, and before I joined the 28th Field Hospital I was assigned to trains, which helped evacuate hospitals from Southern England to Northern England to make room for the casualties they expected after D-Day. So this was my job for a while, to ride these trains, take the sick patients up north and empty the patients down there. Finally we ended up in the marching area of England, and shortly after D-Day, August 13, we were put on an Indonesian ship to go to France we landed in France on a rainy day - it was muddy. All the men were in one kit, the women in another I remember waking up in the morning - we had no bathrooms and this fellow said, "what I wouldn't give for a good shower, shave and you know what" and I knew how he felt. Then we went by - we were put in all these different ambulances and we went all through France till we got to Southern France when we joined General Patton's 3rd Army. -----------------------------------------. These MASH Hospitals were like the Hilton compared to what we had because we moved every day. We'd have to sleep on the ground sometimes. We slept - we never had a mattress, we never had a pillow, we never had sheets.
Conklin: [ 09:19] I would rather do an interview with you about this, but unfortunately I think what we ought to do is just skip right over to how you ended up at the Presidio. Tell me about your first day at the Presidio.
Zieski: [09:34] I got out of the Army for a short while just after '46. I joined the Reserves in Santa Barbara and we had to do two weeks active duty a year to go to the Presidio. I went to the hospital there to do my two weeks active duty. The Chief Nurse, Colonel Joliffe talked me into coming back into the Service. So I came back into the Service. I went to Camp Stillman. From there I went to Japan. From Japan I went to Fort Leonard Wood. From Fort Leonard Wood I went to Italy. From Italy I came back to Letterman in San Francisco.
Conklin: [10:23] So are you officially landed for the rest of your career at Letterman?
Zieski: [10:27] Not the rest of it.
Conklin: [10:28] What year are we in?
Zieski: [10:31] In 1961 I went back to Letterman.
Conklin: [10:36] And you were there how long?
Zieski: [10:38] Till '64 then I went to Germany and I was in Germany till 1966. But that was the end of my career after that. I retired from White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico.
Conklin: [10:56] So we're then principally speaking about the years at Letterman which were 1961 till 1964.
Zieski: [11:01] The first ones were '51 to '52. That was as a civilian nurse then the others were '61 to '64
Conklin: [11:10] Where did you live on Post, and what was the physical and the social structure of the nurse's quarters?
Zieski: [11:15] I lived in the nurse's quarters. We had one little room.
Conklin: [11:18] Do you remember the building number at all?
Zieski: [11:20] I can't. It was right on that main street there. It's not far from that museum across the street from there they were controllment-type hospitals. It was all one floor and my ward was Ward 01. I had the Women's Medical Ward which turned out to be the terminal disease mostly. These were the spouses and children of these solders and officers. It was a very difficult ward because I had almost all the cancer, stroke and heart patients from the whole Pacific area from Japan to the United States. From Alaska to Mexico.
Conklin: [12;07] How about any Pacific Islands?
Zieski: [12:10] Yes. We had some from the Islands, like Hawaii and some other islands. Guam. I had them from all over, we averaged about one to three deaths a day.
Conklin: [12:20] So these were the wives and the female children of Army personnel?
Zieski: [12:25] Right. I had as young as 14. This young child I had. she'd been ---- and then developed aplastic anemia. One of my favorites is Shirley McCarthy. She was the daughter of an Air Force Colonel. She had Hodgkin's Disease, and she was in and out for treatment all the time. She used to help me in my office. I became very enamored with her. We were very close and when she died I thought I'd lost a daughter. I still have something she gave me. Then I left there to go to Germany and I never went back.
Conklin: [13:12] When you were living in the nurse's quarters, my guess would be that living with the same people that you worked with all day is difficult. How did that work out for you?
Zieski: [13:23] Never had any problems.
Conklin: [13:25] Did you socialize with these women also?
Zieski: [13:26] Yes.
Conklin: [13:27] You all became very close?
Zieski: [13:30] We became very close and we used to go to the Club during happy hour and have our meals there. No, I never had any problem that way.
Conklin: [13:40] Are you still friends with them?
Zieski: [13:43] Some of them have died.
Conklin: [13;45] Did you stay in touch with them though?
Zieski: [13:47] I did for a long time, but I'm going to be 82.
Conklin: [13:49] So they were life-long friends?
Zieski: [13:51] Yes.
Conklin: [13:53] That’s nice.
Zieski: [13:55] I still have one who lives in the Marina. She had been an Army nurse, she's a civilian nurse. Her name is Dorothy Kenyan(sp?). She lives over there on North Beach, not far from the Presidio, over there. She's still my friend. In fact, I talked to her the other day. And they have a sailboat so every weekend I'd go out sailing with them. It was just a good outlet for me from that stress from people dying all the time. I went sailing with them all over the Bay, all the way to the Estuary in Oakland and everywhere. We used to go to all these yacht clubs along the way. They belonged to - I remember seeing Joe DiMaggio right after Marilyn Monroe died, at Tiburon. No, it was Belevedere. He was sitting at the bar and he looked so sad. But we'd stop at yacht clubs.
Conklin: [14:50] Just the three of you then?
Zieski: [14:52] Yes, the three of us.
Conklin: [14:54] Or were there other Army personnel?
Zieski: [14:56] No. This was this former Army nurse and her husband.
Conklin: [15:00] So what other entertainment was . . . what was the entertainment on Post for Army barracks people? You mentioned a club. Which club?
Zieski: [15:07] The Letterman and the Presidio Officer's Club.
Conklin: [15:09] So how did they differ?
Zieski: [15:12] The Presidio Officer's Club had higher ranking officers . The Letterman Club was composed mostly of medical people. It was down there at the gate leading into the Marina I used to walk to work. I lived in the Marina after I moved out of the quarters, and I'd walk. I lived over on Francisco and Broderick and I walked. It was a wonderful walk to walk back and forth I used to stop in the Club, and one time when I was walking home the Officer of the Club called me. Here was a man who put a gun in his mouth and shot himself.
Conklin: [15:58] He wanted you to come help or something?
Zieski: [16:01] Yes. He wanted me to help. I said “I can't help. We've got to call the ambulance. He's dead. He's going to die.” It was terrible. But we had parties. I loved to dance, and the doctors knew it. So, I danced a lot then they had swimming. Movies.
Conklin: [ 16:23] Back at the clubs for just a moment. What was the social climate like? I'd like to compare the two clubs. What was it like to be in each of them? The social climate. I don't know if I'm describing this well.
Zieski: [16:40] I understand what you mean. The Letterman Club was friendlier because we knew each other. Whereas the Presidio was composed of the whole post including Fort Scott, and I didn't know a lot of them and they were higher ranking people like Generals and full Colonels.
Conklin: [16:57] So would you say it was a little more formal and stiff?
Zieski: [17:00] Yes. Very formal and stiff. They had Chinese waiters up at the Presidio Club and they were all Chinese and you got to know them. They had a beautiful bar. There were running falls out in the windows and I . . . there was a place in the Club there where you could see the original adobe from the original Club from way back when it was first built. It was over in the corner. The bandstand, we used to go up there a lot for dinner, but mostly to the Letterman Club because you knew most everybody, and it was friendlier.
Conklin: [17:41] It sounds to me like the doctors may not have been married, a lot of them, if they were all dancing . . .
Zieski: [17:45] Some of them weren't. That's right.
Conklin: [17:49] Is that the way they got rid of stress and tension?
Zieski: [17:52] I imagine so. Because I had this awful ward one of the doctors came up to me and said, "this is the way I like to see you." He said, "you've got that awful ward, how you can take it, I don't know. But at least you come down here and this is an outlet for you. Get rid of the tension.”
Conklin: [18:15] That’s great.
Zieski: [18:16] That’s why I won't join hospice. I just looked at Holocaust victims. World War II so I was Just so involved with death all the time.
Conklin: [18:25] What else did you do for entertainment? [crosstalk]. So let's talk about swimming, bowling?
Zieski: [18:34] Swimming pool there. I didn't bowl because I had a bad knee. I went sailing.
Conklin: [18:40] You went swimming at the Presidio Club?
Zieski: [18:43] Yes, at that indoor club there.
Conklin: [18:44] And who would go?
Zieski: [18:45] Some of the nurses, whoever was around.
Conklin: [18:49] Would it be all different times or was there a specific time a lot of you went?
Zieski: [18:53] There was a specific time for all of us when it was open that you could go. Because it was open for the enlisted people and everybody so there was just a sort of . . .
Conklin: [19:03] Was there groups of people that met, like little social cliques?
Zieski: [19:05] Once in a while . . . little social cliques would meet there.
Conklin: [19:10] How often would you swim?
Zieski: [19:12] Maybe once or twice a week. Because I worked so darn hard I was tired, used to go on weekends. We went to movies. For 35 cents we went to movies and they had the library right across from the movie theatre and the clubs over in that area too, then I went to church. I'm Catholic. At the Chapel right near the Officer's Club. After the services I would go to the Club and have brunch.
Conklin: [19:45] As a member of the Catholic congregation on Post, could you describe the services?
Zieski: [19:50] It was run by the Catholic priest who was the Chaplain. I can't remember his name. We became good friends because he came to my ward a lot because I had so many deaths.
Conklin: [20:03] Was it a standard Catholic service pretty much?
Zieski: [20:06] Yes. Mass is what they call it.
Conklin: [20:10] What kind of special church events did they have for the Catholic . . . ?
Zieski: [20:13] They didn't have a lot of special events because there's so much outside the Presidio, like St. Mary's . But our church didn't have many. . . it had Mass.
Conklin: [20:24] It had no special events?
Zieski: [20:26] No special events that I know of, maybe they did.
Conklin: [20:29] You went to Sunday brunch on Post after the service. Did a lot of people go? Was that a standard social activity?
Zieski: [20:39] Yes, for the people that lived around there. But so many people . . . over in Marin. Up there - on Ocean - so they didn't come. That was a long way for them to come, but I lived right outside the Presidio, so I went there all the time. I didn't belong to any of the local churches, just to that one.
Conklin: [21:00] Was there only one priest for the whole time you were with that church?
Zieski: [21:03] No, I had two different ones.
Conklin: [21:05] How did the personality of those priests affect the congregation? Was there any difference in them?
Zieski: [21:12] No, it didn't make any . . . all I remember is this one priest I knew very well. They did an abortion on a woman because I guess it was her life or the baby's, and he didn't approve. I remember that so well. He came to me about it. He said, “you’re Catholic. You should do something about it.” I said, “what can I do?” I'm not a priest. I remember that so well the doctors, of course . . . you know, I'm a nurse they went in and did the abortion to save the women's life, but he disapproved of it.
Conklin: [21:47] How was that received by the medical and the church community? Did that become a bone of contention?
Zieski: [21:52] No, the church . . . you know, that was quite a ways from there. I don't remember anything that the church did about that.
Conklin: [21:59] But it wasn't a topic of conversation?
Zieski: [22:01] No. It wasn't.
Conklin: [22:05] It was very quiet.
Zieski: [22:06] Very quiet.
Conklin: [22:10] O.k. You mentioned - going back to the social situation again - you mentioned that fraternization with the people of different rank was discouraged.
Zieski: [22:18] That’s right.
Conklin: [22:19] Can you elaborate on that? What was the ramification of fraternization?
Zieski: [22:23] This is the whole military. Maybe you read about this woman - Lieutenant Flynn(sp?)? Men can do anything they please, but let a woman do it, not me. When I came here I was named Grand Marshall of the Parade and one of the men at the Legion Post said Army nurses, or Combat Duty Nurses were nothing but prostitutes. Can you imagine?
Conklin: [22:51] What?
Zieski: [22:55] Yes. I didn't believe it. How do you have time? You're living out in tents. You don't have a motel or anything to go to. I was so hurt by that.
Conklin: [23:04] He didn't know.
Zieski: [23:10] But this is . . . a lot of the impression of us Combat Duty Nurses.
Conklin: [23:18] And so did that carry . . . so when you came to Letterman, they knew you had been a Combat Duty Nurse. Did that color how people treated you at all?
Zieski: [23:26] No. Not at all.
Conklin: [23:28] Or it had been so long since the War . . .
Zieski: [23:33] It had been so long. I was very respected there. As I told you, I was made the Outstanding Nurse in 1963, and everybody respected me and they wondered how I could take that Ward every day. Colonel Brady called me in one day. "Irene" she said, "you've been in that Ward so long, I should really take you out from that Ward, but all the doctors like you and everyone likes you and you're doing such a good job I hate to take you away from there." So I just kept on. Normally they kept you on a ward like that for only one year, and I stayed there three years.
Conklin: [24:13] In terms of fraternization, how did one be careful? You had to be careful. What did being careful mean?
Zieski: [24:21] Do it where you can't be seen. Like go off the Post or somewhere. Now I had two nurses who dated enlisted men. One of them, unfortunately, got involved with one of my Corpsmen who was Puerto Rican. She got pregnant so she came to me. She said, "Major, I'm pregnant. I don't know how to tell Colonel Brady this. Will you do it for me?" So I went to Colonel Brady, the Chief Nurse, and I said, "so and so is pregnant and the father is an enlisted man. He's from Puerto Rico and she wants me to tell you about it." Well she had to get out of the Army. He took her to Puerto Rico and he was from a very poor family, living in shacks. She used to write back to me she separated from him and went back to Louisiana where her home was. Then I lost touch. You can't, when you move like I did. Then I had another one that was involved with an enlisted man which was a no-no, and she came to me about it. I said, "well you better tell Colonel Brady. You know what they're going to do to you."
Conklin: [25:45] They could kick you out of the Army for being involved with a co-worker?
Zieski: [25:49] Right. A co-worker or any enlisted person. That was not . . . now when I was overseas in World War II I had - one of the nurses got involved with an enlisted man. She had to get out of the Army. She finally married him, but she's dead now. Breast cancer.
Conklin: [26:10] You mentioned the word Puerto Rican several times, and what I'm hearing from that is that there was an issue of race involved.
Zieski: [26:18] No, it wasn't race.
Conklin: [26:20] So it doesn't matter that he was Puerto Rican?
Zieski: [26:24] You know what? I don't understand all this race business. I have had wards like in Japan. My Ward Master was Filipino. My Corpsmen were black. My Nurse's Aides were Japanese. I had 13 nationalities with Hepatitis. Greeks, Ethiopians . . . so race is not a consideration when you're taking care of patients.
Conklin: [26:50] But that's in Japan, right?
Zieski: [26:51] Even at Letterman, I never had any problems.
Conklin: [26:54] In the '60's?
Zieski: [26:57] In the 60's.
Conklin: [26:58] Because earlier we were discussing your life in the '50's and black and white was such a big issue so . . .
Zieski: [27:05] Yes. It was in Kansas. Down in Springfield, Missouri where I was stationed.
Conklin: [27:11] So where you are in the country and what year it is actually has a lot to do with it?
Zieski: [27:14] That’s right.
Conklin: [27:16] But in San Francisco, at the Presidio, in the '60's no problem?
Zieski: [27:18] No problem.
Conklin: [27:20] That’s good to document. I think that's important.
Zieski: [27:23] You know where it was worse? When I came back from overseas I was stationed at Springfield, Missouri, and that was really bad. Gosh, they were really race conscious.
Conklin: [27:34] In 1963 you received the Outstanding Nurse Award. What accomplishments brought you the Award? What do you think?
Zieski: [27:41] I was the Head Nurse on a very stressful ward. Most of my patients were doomed to die. It was called the "Snakepit." That was a terminal disease ward, and facing death every day, and taking . . . I only had four separate rooms - private rooms - the rest of the Ward . . . so it meant moving Peter to make room for Paul so I could put them in a room where they could die in peace. Where nobody would see it. Because that depresses patients when they see death, that was very stressful. Because I'd have to move out and . . . I went to work a half hour to an hour early every day to see each one of my patients. They weren't a number to me. They were a name and a body and a disease I looked at them and I knew immediately whom I had . . . when I would call a doctor. I'd say, so and so has to be moved because I don't think she's going to live much longer, it was very stressful. I don't know how I did it now so because of all that I . . . in fact, the doctors used to . . . whenever they had very sick patients they always asked them to move to my Ward. General Schwartz(sp?) told Colonel Brady one time which I'm very flattered. . . he pointed to my Ward . . . he said, "there is still one of the old-fashioned nurses." Because I knew all my patients. They weren't numbers or anything at all. I went to see them all.
Conklin: [29:21] So it's mostly your responsibilities on the job what earned people their awards?
Zieski: [29:26] Right.
Conklin: [29:30] Who got it the year before you or after you?
Zieski: [29:32] Gee, I don’t' recall. Oh, I know who. Yeah, Helen was her name. She had the Neurology Ward. No, Surgical Ward upstairs there I remember.
Conklin: [29:41] She was outstanding because her job was difficult too?
Zieski: [29:43] Yes. She had the neurosurgical patients you know who are paralyzed from the waist down .
Conklin: [29:49] We’re going to stop for a moment and I'm going to turn the tape over.
[Side B]
Conklin: [00:00] In terms of your work at the "Snakepit" where were your patients from generally, and was there sort of an average age, or racial makeup, or a common disease? Who were your patients?
Zieski: [00:17] My patients were from Mexico to Canada, from Colorado to the Pacific Ocean . . .
Conklin: [00:24] And that's where they were stationed?
Zieski: [00:26] Where they were stationed.
Conklin: [00:27] So they weren't from those places?
Zieski: [00:28] They were from those places. From Japan, Guam, Alaska. I got all . . . like the cabin fever patients from Alaska. You know those people were snowed in . . .
Conklin: [00:39] Can you talk about that a little. I think that's interesting. The cabin fever people from Alaska.
Zieski: [00:43] Well, you know Alaska would get these awful snowstorms and the people can't get out. These women are kept in their houses without any social contact, and I guess they had a phone, but they'd get very depressed you know that darkness - when it's dark all the time - they'd become so depressed. They would come to the Ward . . .
Conklin: [01:09] And to come to your Ward meant . . .
Zieski: [01:11] First. First my Ward, and then maybe they'd go to the Psychiatric Ward. I'd get them first from everywhere, and then they were categorized by the doctor for whatever treatment they would need.
Conklin: [01:25] Then they would move out to the hospital, and if you got them back it meant that they were at the end of their days?
Zieski: [01:30] Some of them. I had the first heart surgeries that were done. I had a woman who was a war bride from England. She was friend of Julie Andrews. She went to school with her she went up - I still have the knit cap she made for me - she went up for surgery and never came back. It was one of the first valve surgeries they did. This is the beginning of heart surgery and so many of these patients I would send up for surgery didn't come back. It was very sad. Because that's when heart surgery was first evolving.
Conklin: [02:07] Did some of them make it or was it more . . . ?
Zieski: [02:09] Some made it.
Conklin: [02:10] Do you remember any sort of feeling about statistics? Three to one?
Zieski: [02:13] I can't remember. I've been so many places so I don't remember.
Conklin: [02;21] Were they mostly . . . what was the racial makeup of your ward?
Zieski: [02:27] I had everything. Well I had, Japanese, Hispanics. Every nationality you could imagine. You know it didn't make any difference to me.
Conklin: [02:41] It wasn't sort of the white man's Army that was getting medical care?
Zieski: [02:46] No. Everybody got . . . I never encountered racism much in the Army. I told you when I first went to . . . but that wasn't on the Army proper. You know it's in the pound, but in the Service, we all worked together. I worked with a man, a Corpsman, one time for a year and he came to me and he said, "Major when did you start wearing glasses?" I've worn glasses ever since . . . you don't pay any attention to color or things like that. You do your job, and say if I worked with you, I wouldn’t know you wore glasses, well I guess she did. I probably wouldn't remember.
Conklin: [03:24] I think also on the Pacific Coast you just end up with . . . if you were in Iowa it might have been a different story, but . . .
Zieski: [03:33] Well I'm from Minnesota. I saw one black man when I was young. My grandfather had a hotel with all the vaudeville stuff that came, and there was a black man in vaudeville. I thought he was the boogey man. He was the first black man I'd ever saw then until I got into nurse's training in Minneapolis and I was assigned to take care of one, I had never encountered them at all.
Conklin: [03:57] Pretty insular in the middle of the country. On the coast we had a mix.
Zieski: [04:02] Well down south it was really bad. That was really bad. They're really rank conscious. I have a black Army nurse friend here in town. She lived in Chicago, and she said she never encountered any racism until she went to Alabama.
Conklin: [04:18] Well that's good that the Army wasn't doing those sorts of things. How did your patients get to the facilities? One guess would be airplane.
Zieski: [04:25] By ship, airplane. They'd be flown into Travis Airport, then I would get them by ambulance from there, or they would come, not so much by ship toward the end, most of them were flown at that time.
Conklin: [04:42] Did you get many lets see, um, war nurses?
Zieski: [04:51] I had one. God bless her. She had a brain tumor, and we couldn’t keep her. We sent her to the V.A., she died there. She was sent out to Palo Alto where I go for my care, and she died then. I had this one English Sargent; her picture is there. She was bought over; her name was Treat Porter(sp?). She came from royalty in England, Mary Pickford and her. Douglas Fairbanks brought her over and she was in the movies when the War came along. She joined the Army, and she was one of my patients. I have her picture there; her son was a Catholic Priest. Father Treat Porter. He's probably still in San Francisco. But she has since died. He told me she developed Alzheimer's, but she was a Sargent, well known, very well respected. I had my picture with her when she was on the Ward. I don't remember what she had.
Conklin: [06:07] I wonder if woman who have served through a war are a little tougher maybe? How do they differ from civilian women?
Zieski: [06:17] You become more tolerant. A person becomes tolerant like me. All this stuff has happened to me. I'm a survivor. Because we were bombed all the time. This doesn't scare me, just makes me angry.
Conklin: [06:30] Being harassed by local drug lords? [Before the interview started she told me about problems in her housing unit.]
Zieski: [06:34] Yes. You know it doesn't scare me, just makes me mad. Anybody else would have been out of here a long time ago.
Conklin: [06:39] So going through the War would have toughened all of you?
Zieski: [06:42] All of us. Oh yes.
Conklin: [06:47] Did your patients get transshipped from any central location? Would that mean just coming from Travis, I guess.
Zieski: [06:54] From Travis. That's where they were . . .
Conklin: [06:56] They would be gathered.
Zieski: [06:57] Yes.
Conklin: [06:58] Was there a medical unit at Travis?
Zieski: [07:01] They have a hospital there, but they wouldn't keep them there long. They'd just bring them . . .
Conklin: [07:06] They’d make sure they were stabilized?
Zieski: [07:07] Yes. They'd just bring them. We're just only an hour's ride. I used to get then from Denver too, patients from Denver.
Conklin: [07:14] That would come to Travis?
Zieski: [07:17] Yes.
Conklin: [07:18] So Travis was the transfer?
Zieski: [07:20] And then from L.A., from that area.
Conklin: [07:23] Could you talk about rearranging the Ward as people began to die, how did that affect people? I mean when you started to move them into a private room, the writing was on the wall.
Zieski: [07:33] They knew.
Conklin: [07:35] So could you describe that time?
Zieski: [07:38] I tell you it was very stressful.
Conklin: [07:41] Do you have any techniques that you used?
Zieski: [07:43] How could you when you only had four private rooms. I remember one day they called me from the Emergency - we're sending you a patient. I had two patients dying in a room. I went out in the hall and cried. I had no room for any patients. I just did not know what I was going to do. I couldn't move those patients that were dying. Here I get an emergency patient, and I said put her somewhere until I can make arrangements. But no, they bring them right in and there you are. The patient is dying, and you got a patient on that. Very stressful. Finally, you manage, but then you have to get help to move beds. Rearrange all the records. Everything. The numbers. It's very stressful. I don't know how I did it truthfully. I was young though.
Conklin: [08:20] Sometimes that helps. Please characterize the doctor staff in terms of sex, race, age, their background, where they came from? Was there any common denominator?
Zieski: [08:42] They were male. We didn't have any female doctors then. I got the interns - the residents were [inaudible] and they would come every three months and change. The interns were every month, and every morning after I saw my patients I would go into their offices and I would give them a report on all the patients. I was very respected because I knew all my patients and I told them what was wrong with them. I only had trouble when one doctor in all that time - but I'm not going to get into that because I prefer not to. He tried - you know, he was doing something wrong that I felt was not right and I was right.
Conklin: [09:29] Did you prevail?
Zieski: [09:31] I prevailed and when the . . .
Conklin: [09:33] Did you get an apology?
Zieski: [09:35] Yes also when the patient died, I was called into General Schwartz's office and when I told him the story he said, "you should have come to me from the very beginning." And I said, "I'm not a squealer." I said, "I thought maybe he would listen, but he didn't." The patient died. But I tried not to talk . . . I don't want to get into it.
Conklin: [09:55] No, that's fine. So, you said to me that the doctor ruled the roost.
Zieski: [10:00] They were always like that.
Conklin: [10:01] So what's that like?
Zieski: [10:03] Well haven't you ever worked with bosses - men that are very chauvinistic at all? You know what I mean.
Conklin: [10:10] Typical?
Zieski: [10:11] Typical. The Army especially you know. These officers they . . . look what's happened to that woman. How she's accused of . . . it goes on all the time.
Conklin: [10:23] Do they do anything for the men?
Zieski: [10:25] No, there was this Colonel in the Air Force he was asked if he ever encountered this in the Army. My God, he was lying. This goes on all the time, especially overseas. That made me so angry.
Conklin: [10:37] Were there some of the military doctors that didn't treat you bad. Not badly, but the ruling of the roost syndrome?
Zieski: [10:47] No, I was very respected by all of them. But they gave you orders, you followed their orders. When I got out of nurse's training, when I was in nurse's training, doctors were gods. We had to stand up when they came in the room. Oh yes, this is the old time. You stood up. They were gods you stood up when they came in . . .
Conklin: [11:09] At Letterman in the '60's?
Zieski: [11:10] No, this was when I was out of nurse's training in Minnesota. No, at Letterman you didn't have to get up. It was different. But doctors - to nurses, they’re gods. Really you tried to follow their orders, but there were times you had a little conflict.
Conklin: [11:33] Was the Presidio as a duty station, any stiffer or any more formal because maybe it was because of the 6th Army . . . was there a feeling . . . ?
Zieski: [11:51] It’s more formal because, as I told you, I didn't - the Letterman was fine. We were friendly, but at the other Club, you had all these high ranking people, and you just didn't . . . and the women were playing bridge. I don't play bridge. You know sometimes the officer's wives are worse than the officers.
Conklin: [12:12] For being stuck up and kind of snobby?
Zieski: [12:15] Snobby. Yes. Don't put this down, but it's true. They were worse than some, and they looked down on us Army nurses. A lot of the officer's wives.
Conklin: [12:27] Why?
Zieski: [12:29] I don't know why it is. I guess they thought we were having affairs with them . . . I don't know. But they looked down on us Army nurses a lot of the time. Don't put that down.
Conklin: [12:37] Were there any officer's wives that you were friendly with?
Zieski: [12:41] Oh yes, very friendly.
Conklin: [12:43] Personally. But the rest of them, maybe they just didn't talk . . .
Zieski: [12:47] We just didn't know them. I don't play bridge, so I didn't . . . I don't play golf. I never had time, so I wasn't in that particular clique. You know what I mean? I'm not a martini-drinking lunch person either. I never had time. I went to work at 6 in the morning, and I didn't get through till - I always worked overtime - 4 or 5 o'clock. Then you go home exhausted after that.
Conklin: [13:18] Would you get lunch regularly?
Zieski: [13:19] Oh yes.
Conklin: [13:20] Was it common that you had to work your lunch hour?
Zieski: [13:24] Sometimes. If I had a dying patient, I did. But I just went to the Mess Hall which was just around the corner. I went to the dining room every day.
Conklin: [13:32] You worked a five-day week?
Zieski: [13:34] Yes. There were times we worked longer than that, I guess. Was it - I can't remember anymore. I think it was a five-day week then. But then years ago you worked six days a week, 12 hours a day. When I was gone, night duty 7 to 7, 30 days at a time at Fort [inaudible] without a day off when I got off that 30 days I got my sleeping and that was it. That's when you worked during in the Army.
Conklin: [14:08] And what years was that?
Zieski: [14:10] Oh God, that was . . . let's see. '46 to '47.
Conklin: [14:21] What’s the strangest disease you've treated that came to Letterman? Did you get bizarre diseases?
Zieski: [14:28] We didn't like we did in Japan. I did some like maybe dysentery, aplastic anemia which is rare. This 14-year old girl who was put on coricidin, and she developed it and died. It was from an antibiotic.
Conklin: [14:43] And she got her disease because she was given an antibiotic and her body couldn't handle it?
Zieski: [14:51] That’s right. I had all these heart patients always . . .
Conklin: [14;59] Because Letterman was a special hospital pioneering a heart program?
Zieski: [15:05] Right. They had strokes, epilepsy. I had patients that put on too many steroids and got the balloon face, hypertension.
Conklin: [15:19] No weird tropical . . . I was thinking when you pull from Guam and Hawaii, that you'd have bizarre tropical diseases.
Zieski: [15:26] The soldiers would. They'd get that lymphoma and all this stuff. Not the women so much except that cabin fever, but not that I remember.
Conklin: [15:41] How did the rank of the patients in your Ward affect you?
Zieski: [15:48] It didn't bother me one bit.
Conklin: [15:50] So once someone's a patient, rank disappears?
Zieski: [15:52] That’s right, to me. Of course I've had some General's wives and I remember . . . remember General Dean?
Conklin: [16:02] No.
Zieski: [16:04] General Dean - he was a patient of mine in Japan. He had been a prisoner in Korea, and when he was released he was a patient of mine in Japan. He came to the Presidio, and there was some General's wives that I had as patients and they expected me to let him in at all hours, so on and so forth. I tried to accommodate . . . sometimes they expect extra privileges. I remember this one doctor - I didn't know who he was, but he was a doctor on the next ward, came at 9 o'clock in the morning when they were giving baths. He wanted to see so and so, and I said, “you can't, we're giving her a bath,” and he turned me in. I didn't know he was a doctor.
Conklin: [16:53] Turning you in means?
Zieski: [16:55] He reported me.
Conklin: [16:56] To whom?
Zieski: [16:59] To the Chief of Medicine.
Conklin: [17:01] With a written report, a verbal? How did that sort of punish-ment system go?
Zieski: [17:04] He did a verbal report. So I was called to the office. So Colonel Brady, God bless her, she's dead now. She said, "Irene what did you do that for?" I said, "I didn't know who he was, and I said we're giving baths at 9 in the morning, you can't have visitors when you're giving baths." And she said, "Irene, he's a doctor." I said, "I didn't know that."
Conklin: [17:25] He didn't identify himself.
Zieski: [17:27] Well, he probably did, but it didn't mean anything to me. He said, "I'm Colonel so and so." How am I to know he's a doctor. He turned me in.
Conklin: [17:35] What kind of offenses would get people in trouble? What would be bad nursing care?
Zieski: [17:45] Mistreating a patient or . . .
Conklin: [17:51] Mistreatment meaning physical, mental, what?
Zieski: [17:54] When they sort of abused the patient. If somebody argued with a patient. Say a patient, I say turn over and they refused to turn over, and then you'd take them and dump them over or something. Something like that, but it was very rare.
Conklin: [18:08] And if someone was doing that, what was the procedure?
Zieski: [18:11] I’d just follow them in a private room and talk to them, that's all. I never scolded a patient - I mean a Corpsmen, or a Nurse's Aide in front of anybody else, and I always took them in a private room and talked to them. I remember this one fellow who told me, he said, "Major, I respect you. I don't like anybody else around here." I mothered the boys though.
Conklin: [18:34] Tell me about that.
Zieski: [18:41] That wasn't so much at Letterman. I don't know, they always were broke at the end of the month. I'd lend them money, and like the elves, I'd give parties for them. Like for the Ward people, invite them in and have a party like at Christmas or Thanksgiving.
Conklin: [18:57] At your house or on the Ward?
Zieski: [18:59] On the Ward and also at my place. I remember when I lived in the Marina I had to get permission to let the blacks in.
Conklin: [19:06] In the 60's?
Zieski: [19:08] Yes. I had to get permission to let these black people come to my party; from the landlord.
Conklin: [19:16] Interesting. So you - I think we may have talked about this. You released a lot of your pressure by . . .
Zieski: [19:30] By sailing.
Conklin: [19:31] By sailing and dancing and movies. What were some of the other things that other people did?
Zieski: [19:38] I don't really know. Some played tennis. A lot of them played golf and bridge. Some of them got drunk, there's a lot of alcoholism in the Service. I'm lucky. So many of my Army nurse friends have died.
Conklin: [19:57] From alcoholism?
Zieski: [19:58] Yes. Don't put that down, but you know, I come from an alcoholic family. I don't know, I guess I was tired or something, but I never drank alone. I went to parties. That was it I never drank alone. When I was at Camp Stillman(sp?) I'll tell you, I had to get along with the Assistant to the Chief. I used to have to make rounds at 10 o'clock at night. Here a lot of these girls were just drunk. They'd smoke cigarettes, burn the mattress. One of them died from an overdose, another became a drug addict.
Conklin: [20:34] These were ex-Army nurses?
Zieski: [20:37] No, they were Army nurses. They were still in the Service I feel so lucky because I used to go to those parties. I went to a lot of the cocktail parties - a lot of the parties and danced. But that was it. I had alcohol at home, but I didn't drink it.
Conklin: [20:54] You worked in the old Letterman. You talked about controllment. Was it like an old building but full of really good equipment, or did . . .
Zieski: [21:08] We never had the best equipment.
Conklin: [21:10] How did that affect your ability to do your job?
Zieski: [21:13] You did the best you could.
Conklin: [21:18] Were there critical pieces of equipment you were lacking?
Zieski: [21:21] Not necessarily. Not that I remember. We had oxygen tents and all that stuff. Maybe a little more equipment, but . . .
Conklin: [21:33] Were you short on supplies like bandages? The building was just old.
Zieski: [21:38] When I think of how the government wastes money. It used to take an arm and a leg to get a few pieces of paper. Maybe you know - you've worked for the federal government - to get a pencil. It used to make me mad.
Conklin: [21:52] When they built the hospital tower - the new Letterman . . .
Zieski: [21:55] I don't know. I wasn't there. I never worked in the new hospital.
Conklin: [22;02] Ok. Do any characters stick out in your mind? Any people that were downright characters?
Zieski: [22:11] Gee, I don't really know. They were all characters I guess. Colonel Brady - Ilene Brady was the Chief Nurse and she was a lovely person. I think she stands out. She was one of the best Chief Nurses I've ever had. Some of them are so power hungry she even asked me, you know when we went out socially, do you mind being with me because of this fraternization. You're not supposed to associate with your . . .
Conklin: [22:42] What would the two of you do and where would you go?
Zieski: [22:43] We used to go in a group for dinners. Stuff like that.
Conklin: [22:45] It was ok to be with her in a group?
Zieski: [22:49] Sure, but she would say well, because, you see a lot of people think you're trying to make points. You know what I mean. By going out with the Chief Nurse and so forth you're rank happy. She went to Salt Lake City where she died. She would say, “do you mind?” I said “no.” She said, "well do you think people say anything?" I said, "well let them say it, it doesn't bother me." But this is what people used to think. That you would be trying to make points you know. Get favors. Which was never true.
Conklin: [23:23] If you have to make a general overall summary of your two years at Letterman and the Presidio, what sort of events come to mind?
Zieski: [23:34] I was actually there three years. I was a civilian three years I would say that was one of the most beautiful Posts I have ever been on in my life. It was lovely. I worked hard, but it was an interesting assignment because they had all these people from all over. Different nationalities and all that stuff. It was interesting, but it was very stressful, very stressful. I don't know how I did it now. I really don't. I guess that's why I got that Award.
Conklin: [24:10] How did you feel the day you got the Award?
Zieski: [24:12] I was thrilled. Couldn't believe it. They even called my mother and brought her here from Stockton over there.
Conklin: [24:20] How sweet. Did you know you were going to get it?
Zieski: [24:26] No I didn't.
Conklin: [24:27] It was a total surprise. How's that work?
Zieski: [24:29] They had a theatre there and I was on duty they said, Irene you're wanted. Someone says where? Well, there's something going on over at the theatre and I get there, and I find out I cried while I was up on the stage, I couldn't believe it. I said gee. I couldn't believe it and when they gave it to me, I said, "well I can't think what condition a Captain runs a ship on its own. He has to depend on the people that run with him." And I said, "I have a very good crew who have helped me." And I said, "I have to thank them."
Conklin: [25:13] What was the format of the ceremony?
Zieski: [25:15] They had - it was a regular theatre. I was called up on stage and . . .
Conklin: [25:22] Did they talk about your accomplishments?
Zieski: [25:25] No they didn't say - it was written down in there. But anyway, they just said that I had won the Award for - I couldn't believe it - 1963 for running this ward they presented me with a plaque and so forth. I cried, I couldn't believe it.
Conklin: [25:55] Afterwards, was there a cake? Did they take you out to dinner?
Zieski: [25:58] No. No. I gave a dinner because I won $600.
Conklin: [26:04] Oh so it was a cash award also?
Zieski: [26:07] Evangeline Bulword(sp?). She had been an Army nurse. When she died her husband set up this. Every year they gave an award. Evangeline Bulword Award and I got $600 so I invited my whole Ward of help to a dinner at the NCO Club.
Conklin: [26:30] How great. How many people was that?
Zieski: [26:33] Oh God. I can't remember.
Conklin: [26:33] Ten? Twenty?
Zieski: [26:34] More. About thirty or forty. I know my bill was about $250.
Conklin: [26:40] That’s wonderful.
Zieski: [26:42] I invited all them to dinner.
Conklin: [26:44] Are there any things that you would like to say. You and I did a preliminary interview, and since that time have you thought of other things that you think would have been important to record since we have about three minutes left?
Zieski: [27:01] As I say, this very stressful assignment was very interesting in that it was such a beautiful place to work.
Conklin: [27:13] Did you train the lady that took your place or did you leave and then they . . . ?
Zieski: [27:16] No, I'll tell you what. When they were remodeling the wards, and when I left I had moved my ward to another ward, and so when I left the girl that - she was from Guam - Jackie Wan Pat. She took over my Ward.
Conklin: [27:39] What?
Zieski: [27:40] Her name - she was from Guam. Her name was Jackie Wan Pat. She took my place. I wonder what happened to her because I used to keep in contact. Then she married an alcoholic and divorced him. I don't remember what happened. She must be retired now. She took my Ward over. I think it was her, took over the Ward. But see, with all this moving around that we had to do, that they gave me a little going away “holi”, cake and stuff taking stepping on the Ward. But I had to move when it was stressful. We were all moving everything. So, it wasn't like you usually would have a normal one. But they were fixing my Ward. Remodeling it. I left in '64 to go to Germany. I spent about 7-1/2, 8 years in Europe. Wonderful assignment, Italy was wonderful.
Conklin: [28:36] Where in Italy?
Zieski: [28:38] Le Royal near Florence. I used to go to the Vatican all the time. I was there for Pope Pious' funeral. I was there when Pope John was elected. Wonderful.
Conklin: [28:50] Thank you for taking time to share your information with us.
Zieski: [28:54] Well thank you for thinking of me. I feel very honored to think that you went to many Army nurses living over there. I should think. I feel very special.
Conklin: [29:06] You are special.
Zieski: [29:07] Thank you.
Letterman General Hospital Ward
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 35256
"But I'll remember when the first prisoners came back from the Philippines island, from the Bataan March, remember? Oh, brother, that was really something. Those were the first ones...Then they marched them to Letterman. I don't think they even came to the dispensary. They just went right to Letterman because they had suffered so much in the Philippines."- Amelia Schmidt
Amelia Schmidt
Amelia Schmidt discusses working at Fort Mason during World War Two
Conklin: [silence] What changed 1997? My name is Sarah Conklin. I'm interviewing Amelia Schmidt. We're at her residence in San Francisco 1894, 41st Avenue. We're going to be talking about the history of her working at Fort Mason. To start the tape off, we'd like to get a little history from you, Amelia. Where were you born?
Amelia Schmidt: In San Francisco on Fifth Avenue, but affiliated colleges.
Conklin: When were you born?
Amelia: 1913. April, 5th.
Conklin: Who were your parents?
Amelia: My father was Victor Schmidt. My mother was, want her maiden name? Lilly Schwab and she was born in Minnesota.
Conklin: Schwab with sc?
Amelia: S-C-H-W-A-B.
Conklin: Were you raised by your parents?
Amelia: my father died in 1919, after World War I of that terrible flu that they had an influenza which left my mother, a widow, from the farms in Minnesota in the big city of San Francisco, all alone, a widow. She was like me, she wasn't gregarious and outgoing. There she was with four children. I don't know anything about welfare, but I'm quite sure she didn't get any because she had to go out and do housework and cooking, the only thing that she knew which left me home more or less, doing the housework and shelling peas and stuff like that though we don't do it anymore. You are looking at her.
Conklin: Do you have a clock?
Amelia: Yes.
Conklin: You have four siblings or three siblings? [crosstalk]
Amelia: Three. Two older brothers and one younger sister.
Conklin: Where did you go to school and what was the highest grade you've ever got?
Amelia: I went to Jefferson School here in the city, and then public schools. I will get a [unintelligible 00:02:23]. I went to several schools because my mother moved around. We lived on 17th Avenue. When my father died, that was in 1919. Then we lived there for a while and then her father left her a little money when he died. She bought a little house in the Richmond District. That's where she, [laughs] where she brought us kids, more or less. Then I went to Girls' High School and I graduated.
Conklin: Was that the formal name of the school, the Girls' High School?
Amelia: Yes. It was on the Stoner Street and Scott. Everything has changed so much. I go by there, I can't believe it. That was just a couple of blocks away from Fillmore Street, which was more or less black but it was wonderful. All the different like the Filipinos had their neighborhood. The Chinese had Chinatown naturally. The Italians were up on the hill there and out here was sand dunes. Nobody wanted to live out here for heaven's sakes. It really was just off sand more or less.
Conklin: Did you graduate from Girls' High School?
Amelia: I graduated from Girls' High School in 1931.
Conklin: Did you go further than that?
Amelia: Well, at that particular time where was I going to go? There was no possibility of ever going to any kind of school or anything like that. I had to stay home and keep house while my mother was working. When was it on the- when they started drafting young men, and they were thinking of taking my brother, my older brother who was not married. I don't know how old he was at that time. He had a temporary job off. Talk about things. They have rebuilt this both Beach Chalet and mint up there on the hill there. All of that was built by WPA labor. The men made I don't know maybe about $20 a week or something which was sent home to their parents, you know that?
Conklin: When did you start working for the army?
Amelia: Well, before I started to work for the army, I got a temporary job when they were taking the men off and sending them overseas, I got a temporary job up at the Legion of Honor. Now, this was very interesting as far as I'm concerned, and looking back because I got a job at the reception desk. At that particular time, no one could go into the building of the museum which was left by the Spreckels family. You couldn't go into the building with a camera because you could not take any pictures of any of those famous paintings unless you had particular permission from the city. Actually, I was sitting at the front desk and with the clicker counting how many people came in there and checking their cameras.
I was, I was amazed and interested with all the Asian people that were coming in with beautiful cameras. Never thought about anything until the war started and I thought that was damn japs, you'll have to excuse my language, but that's the way it was. They were taking pictures of all coastal installations and all the Coast. Who knew anything about that until they bombed Pearl Harbor? They knew where they were going.
Conklin: Interesting.
Amelia: That to me, it was very interesting because they had these all beautiful cameras, and actually I was sitting here looking at the oh, beautiful things and so forth and so on while they were going around in the building. The only reason they went there, you know the Legion of Honor it sits up there on a promontory, probably, or whatever, and wonderful views of the bay and the ocean and across the bay.
Conklin: Was it from that job that [crosstalk]-
Amelia: Across the ocean.
Conklin: -you started to work for the army?
Amelia: Oh, that's when they were releasing the men to go overseas and so forth, then I got a job up there because they needed some lady to take care of the ladies' restroom.
Conklin: At?
Amelia: At the Legion of Honor.
Conklin: Then after that, you left the Legion, [crosstalk] instead of that started working for the army?
Amelia: I left the Legion of Honor because a friend of mine told me why don't you get a job at Fort Mason because they are looking for people, and I just say, "I don't have any experience." I taught myself how to type and that's about the only thing I could do. I was a mediocre student I didn't graduate with any honors or anything like that. I said, "Well, I don't know anything," and she said to me, I don't know who she was, some girl that I knew. She says go to Fort Mason, go to the personnel department, and tell him what experience you've had.
Conklin: That's exactly what you did?
Amelia: That's exactly what I did. I went to Fort Mason, what experience did I have? I worked for a dentist, I worked here in there and I worked up at the Legion of Honor. The major, I forgot what his name was, he says, "Oh, you're interested in art and blah, blah." He thought, well, I was pretty good. I was all right. I was young and vigorous. He put me into dental clinic. He assigned me in the Fort Mason dispensary. There was a big building up there.
Conklin: Now, what year was this?
Amelia: That was in the C43. I started in 1943.
Conklin: Do you remember how much you made?
Amelia: Well, golly, almost nothing but it was [unintelligible 00:08:35]. That's another thing you can't believe nowadays. When I'm retired I got this little booklet when I retired after 36 years. I retired and I got $90 a month.
Conklin: That's retirement?
Amelia: Retirement.
Conklin: That was what year?
Amelia: That was an annuity, that's not social security or anything. That was in 1978. That's when I retired. Can you imagine that? Now I get a little over $1,000.
Conklin: That's great.
Amelia: Cost of living increase but then of course, you could get about a quart of milk for 10 cents. Now you have to pay $2 for a quart of milk. [chuckles]
Conklin: After the depression and the war began, you were suddenly thrust into a frenetic work world, how did you cope with the increased demands physically and mentally? How did you actually become comfortable with the job?
Amelia: I had to take a physical examination and medical and, what do you call these? When they give you an examination, regular examination, how much you know?
Conklin: A test.
Amelia: Yes. They weren't easy. What my previous experience which was nothing, it was clerical work more or less and so they thought that I'd be fine in the dental clinic doing their admissions and so forth because it was really a crazy thing. There was as I mentioned before that these men would come through in long lines, boom, boom, boom, and have their examinations. As long as you were warm, you were in the Army. [laughs]. It was terrible but that's the way it was. I did the paperwork for it was. So that--
Conklin: Is there something that you did during the day that helped you make it through the day or you were young and strong and it wasn't a challenge? Was it a challenge?
Amelia: Not particularly because, yes it was because I was not used to working with all sorts of people. The dispensary when actually was run by Army Medical Personnel. There was the man that was in charge, a Feinstein, I don't remember, and Major Cornelia, regular Army man. He was in charge of the dental clinic and the people that were in charge were officers. The people that worked under them were all civilians. Mostly female civilians, because there's no such a thing as a male because they were all in the service.
Conklin: What was the work environment like? How was the office set up? What was the feeling in the office?
Amelia: It was business that's all. There was no fooling around. We could have a 10-minute coffee break and there was a hygienist there and the dental assistant, and I was the clerk. There was another assistant, there were four men, busy. There were four girls in there and myself, I was doing the clerical work at the desk, and making the records out for the men that were coming in and going out, and as the dentist would say what they needed, which in those days you could have a full mouth of cavities or something, and they'd fix them up in a hurry and that was it, they had that record. We could go out, we worked from 8:00 until 12:00. During that time we had a 10-minute coffee break.
Conklin: Okay. Pardon?
Amelia: Should I tell you this? I told you this before, 10-minute coffee break. The PX was at was about almost five minutes from the dispensary. Dispensary was up on the hill. We had to walk all the way down to the-- I had to walk, I didn't know anybody because we couldn't go out in pairs, we could only go out one at a time.[laughs] I went down to the PX and the coffee was hot. I would have him put a scoop of ice cream in it to cool it off so that I could drink it in a hurry and get back within 10 minutes because Major Cornelia was listening into his watch.
Conklin: Sounds like it was--
Amelia: Right there, no fun, no business.
Conklin: Was it an eight-hour day?
Amelia: Oh yes. Eight hours.
Conklin: Did you ever have to work extra overtime?
Amelia: I don't remember that. We weren't clock watchers in those times, because there was an entirely different attitude than there is today. Everybody was concerned with the war effort. Everybody was doing their best no matter what it was, I didn't care because I couldn't drink my coffee in 10 minutes. I knew that that's all that they could spare me. They had to have to get me back to my desk. That's the way we all were.
Conklin: That makes it a little different.
Amelia: There was no he and She-ing around because the officers had their families, they lived in the-- I don't know where they lived, but they lived on the post there, with their families. There was no, like I said no he and She-ing, because the guys were put on the ship right now.
Conklin: Did they actually fill everybody, all their cavities before they left for the war?
Amelia: You had to have a good set of teeth. I shouldn't say this, but I remember they had-- I don't know where the men lived, but they would come from here and there. I didn't know anything too much about them because I didn't get a chance to talk to anybody. I keep their records, Joe Blow and what's your serial number and what's your race? There were five races then, there was Caucasian, Negro whatever, they're brown, like the Filipinos and so forth and the Asians and the Red Indians, really Indians. Now, my God, you have a change of something and you're an entirely different race.
Conklin: Did you have a lot of Indians, American Indians that were in the war?
Amelia: I don't remember, but they came from everywhere. They came from the hills and they never had a pair of shoes on before. I don't know where they recruited them, but they got them under the bushes and the hills and everywhere, and they brought all these people in and how they got here, but they got them all. There was no fooling around. There was a very serious business, they got all these young men.
Conklin: I've heard stories of women, clerical, and some medical personnel at Fort Mason who were actively pursuing handsome, well-educated, moneyed men that looked like they would make appealing marriage candidates. Have you heard any stories like this?
Amelia: Certainly not during the war, no. Because they were all transients, they came here today and they were out the next day.
Conklin: So there wasn't a great group of them just sitting around for days.
Amelia: Oh. Like maybe the officers, I didn't know because I was not, I didn't--
Conklin: Okay.
Amelia: We didn't have television and the radio and all of that stuff there. It was in the days of [unintelligible 00:16:19]. One girl would fall in love with the man forever, [laughter]. That was it but later on there was a lot going on. When the men were coming back and forth with their different brides and stuff.
Conklin: What interaction did your female co-workers have with the Italian prisoners of war held at Fort Mason? You and I discussed that a little bit.
Amelia: Well, like I said, I knew they were there because when I was going from the dispensary up on top of the hill down to the PX, I could see these guys, it would say prisoner on their T-shirts or whatever they were wearing in those days. They were doing the gardening, and they were actually prisoners of war. They were Italian prisoners, because at that time, Italy was affiliated with Germany, wasn't it? I remember.
Conklin: Would the women that you worked with then go out with these men later?
Amelia: No, no, no, no, because the men were confined to the post. It was just like being in jail, they knew where you were every minute.
Conklin: Okay. So there wasn't--
Amelia: Not you, but the men.
Conklin: There wasn't any fraternization then?
Amelia: No, not at that time. Later on, when the things cooled down and the men were coming back to the post because those people would stay, they were like prisoners. They were glad they were here. They were damn glad they were here. They were put off in the quarters where the guys would live. The men would live in certain barracks, and that was it. Period. Later on in the war, they had the Women's Auxiliary Army Corps, that was the WAAC. Later on, they decided that they better make it WAX. It was an official Women's Army Corps. They went to, I don't know where it was, but they started coming in.
Conklin: Did some of you, the women you worked with, go down and have coffee with the Italian prisoners?
Amelia: We didn't have time for any of that, no.
Conklin: You said later.
Amelia: No fraternization at all. Later maybe, I guess. I don't know.
Conklin: Okay. What about the-- Were there German? I thought you mentioned German prisoners of war.
Amelia: I'm not awfully sure, but I don't remember too much about the war. I don't think we brought many prisoners of war over this.
Conklin: Okay, so you don't remember German prisoners of war?
Amelia: I do know, because my father's name was Schmidt. He came from Austria and met my mother over here. Because of that, at that fact, that was the time that they were interning the Japanese people. A lot of people don't realize it, but they did the same thing with the Germans. Anybody that had anything to do with Germany and they came to my mother's house a couple of times. This was on Ancestry and they inquired about us because our name was Schmidt. Now nobody ever says anything about that, but they were people that lost their jobs here. Girls that I got to know later on and they were interned, they were moved in towards Colorado were off of the coast here.
Conklin: Because of their German surnames.
Amelia: Did you know that?
Conklin: No, I didn't.
Amelia: Yes, Germany suffered. I wasn't German, but I had a German name and Austria, Hitler marched right into Austria and took that over so that was part of German, then, what do you call it?
Conklin: Who were the people that came to talk to your mother.
Amelia: Some men, they came there very officially. Secret Service men. My mother was working, so I talked to them.
Conklin: The US Secret Service came? What were their questions?
Amelia: All. They wanted to know how long I lived here. Where was I born, where was my father? Anything that might incriminate me or associate me with anything German, just because of my name. I said, "Look, I was born here." Now I'm more brash, I'd say, "Get the hell out of here. I don't want to talk to you," but then, oh, no, I answered every question. Not only that but even after I worked at Fort Mason, it was the same thing with my name Schmidt, associated with Germany.
Conklin: Let's talk about the various medical clinics in which you worked. Let's discuss them one at a time and maybe talk about what the feeling was in these different offices and what some of your jobs were. Let's start with the medical clinic.
Amelia: The whole dispensary was medical. As they came in, I didn't even know what a dispensary was. Did you know what a dispensary or infirmary was?
Conklin: Yes. [laughs]
Amelia: I never even knew what a dispensary was, but a dispensary is where they go give them a physical and find out whether you just got a runny nose or an allergy and so forth and so on. If you have something more serious, they would send you to Letterman Hospital. The dispensary, at that particular time, they gave all the young men, they gave them a physical, and they were pretty strict physicals. They gave you blood tests. In those days they didn't have syphilis, and I'd have--
Oh, this was later on. This was one of my later ones. At first, I was in a dental clinic, but they gave them pretty strict examinations, even dental examinations before they even accepted them. They went through the whole gamut and all the laboratory, every kind of a medical examination. These were the young men in the beginning.
Conklin: After you left the dental clinic, where did you go?
Amelia: I still worked in the dispensary, but then they needed-- Girls would be leaving or something, and then I worked at the front desk, at the reception desk. In those days you kept files and drawers and drawing walls of files. It's not like now you push a button and immediately everything comes up. Anyway, then I worked in the lady's examination.
Conklin: What things were they looking for women for during exams? What were the women checked for?
Amelia: This is the women that were coming in for jobs in their different offices on the post. They would just give them a regular physical like you would go to the-- They'd check your eyes and they'd look up your nose and down your throat and, I think give you an x-ray just to make sure that you were warm.
Conklin: Tell me something about the eye clinic.
Amelia: The eye clinic was right across the hall from the dental clinic. They would check your eyes, see how you were, and so forth and so on. They were really ophthalmologists, I didn't know much about them. They had business then and optician, not opticians. They wouldn't give you any glasses or not, but they would check your eyes and make sure because one of the things that they were particular about was colorblindness. Did you know that? When you were on a ship or something and there would be a signal or something coming in, they were still using these, what do you call them?
Conklin: [inaudible 00:24:08] lanterns.
Amelia: Yes. If you had even the slightest bit of colorblindness, you would be out. That sounds silly, doesn't it? That was one of the things I had to do when I was working in the men's thing. They'd have these funny little things with all these little dots on them. If you could see, normally you could see that there was a star in the middle, but if you couldn't see the yellow or the red, you couldn't see that.
Conklin: Then you would actually do these tests?
Amelia: No, that I would. I would ask them all the questions, and in those days there were syphilis and gonorrhea, and they would treat them with the Lord knows what. Before I'd even let them go see the doctor, I'd say, "You have to have your papers with you." Some of them had, it was just like a roll of toilet paper and they'd have all treatment that they had. I would have to contact the Department of Public Health if they didn't have it, and make sure, "Did Joe Blow ever have any treatment there, and if so, what for?" That would come back to the men's physical examination. I'd have to do the clerical work.
Conklin: It sounds like men would come to you, you'd be asking them for some papers or asking them questions?
Amelia: Checking their eyes to see if they could read.
Conklin: It sounds like those men would have to come back in a day or two, that you couldn't process them immediately.
Amelia: If there was nothing wrong with them, I would see that their blood, or if somebody came up from the laboratory and checked their blood to make sure that it was a Kahn test they had in those days to make sure that they didn't have any blood tests, anything or--
Conklin: Was it contest?
Amelia: K-A-H-N. In the olden days when guys would have gonorrhea and syphilis would get in their blood, I guess it was, I don't know much about it, but that was it.
[laughter]
Conklin: A contest?
Amelia: Not a contest. C-O-N-T-E-S-T. No, no. K-A-H-N, I guess it was the doctor's name.
Conklin: I got it.
Amelia: If there was anything, if it came back, plus and other things too. The food handlers and stuff, they didn't want anybody to be giving any of their health to somebody.
Conklin: How experienced were these doctors and nurses? Were they right out of medical school?
Amelia: They were real doctors, army doctors. All of them were army doctors. They were regular nurses that were, of course, I didn't have too much contact with them because the only time I was away from my desk was to go to the bathroom and maybe have later on, have a cup of coffee up at the-- They'd have coffee instead of going out to the PX, and somebody would have a pot of coffee going in the back room.
They even had an annex to the-- It's sad when you go up there now and see all these things. I went there once after it became Golden Gate, whatever, and it's so different. They had another room, a small building, which was more or less two or three rooms and so forth and so on, where if I was sick and I had a headache and I didn't feel good, instead of going home and wasting the day, they would give me something and they'd tell you go lie down. They would check you.
Then there were other ladies from other places on the post that weren't feeling well or vomiting or diarrhea. Instead of wasting the whole day or the whole week, they would come up there and they would lie down. I didn't go there very often, but I do know they had, what they called the annex, the dispensary annex.
Conklin: Were there any office jokes or pranks? How did you relieve the tension?
Amelia: We just did what we had to do. Now, this was in the beginning, now, afterwards, it was altogether different. When the men came back, that's another story.
Conklin: How were the men attired while they were being processed? What would they be wearing? These large lines of men?
Amelia: In the beginning, it shocked me because I- Catholic little girl, and I didn't know anything about naked men, but these were not naked, they were just in the hallway and there was just a long line waiting for the box office for a popular theater. There was a long string of men, and all they had on was shoes and an overcoat. As they went from one place to the other, of course when they went to the dental things, there was nothing into the laboratory. When they meant to have a physical examination, you didn't have that business of waiting to be undressed or anything like you did later on.
Conklin: It was just a long line of men in raincoats?
Amelia: It was terrible. In the beginning, it was really fierce.
Conklin: Did they find that demeaning or were they all?
Amelia: No. No, no, no. Laughing. It was a usual thing, we were--
Conklin: Were they flirtatious with you?
Amelia: Oh, God no. They didn't have time for that. I guess they were more embarrassed than anything else. I was so busy writing up their charts and saying what their race was and so forth and their age.
Conklin: What was the racial mix of the people you worked with? The doctors and other civilians.
Amelia: Not the men, they were all white. Different religions. My boss was Jewish and that's about all I remembered. There were several other Jewish people and I thought, "Oh, they're all cliquey. They all stick together." [chuckles] The boss has got a good job in the dispensary so to keep from going overseas, he had his buddies for his relatives, which it was my opinion.
Conklin: That's fine. We're perilously close to the end of the tape. I think rather than start another question, I'll just turn it over.
[00:31:36] [END OF AUDIO]
Conklin: When the men were brought back on the ships from the war and the piers at Fort Mason were a hub of activity, what do you remember about the ship's arrival days? What performers come to mind and ceremonies or parties?
Amelia: Oh, I was not a part of them, but I'll remember when the first prisoners came back from the Philippines island, from the Bataan March, remember? Oh, brother, that was really something. Those were the first ones.
Conklin: What was--
Amelia: Like I told you, they would debark at Fort Mason. They had all kinds of piers there and big buildings, and they would debark. As you saw in that magazine and that book there, the whole bunch of us, all whole post came out and formed lines, the girls, the wax, and the soldiers and the civilians. My picture's probably in there too. It was really wonderful. Then they marched them to Letterman. I don't think they even came to the dispensary. They just went right to Letterman because they had suffered so much in the Philippines.
Conklin: What stories do you remember from the ambulance drivers that had to pick up some of the worst of them?
Amelia: You mean?
Conklin: Just--
Amelia: Oh, stories?
Conklin: Yes. Do you remember anything? Talking to the ambulance drivers.
Amelia: Oh, yes. It was a terrible, bloody thing. They'd go out to the fields and they would pick them up and the dead and the dying. Mostly the dying. They'd bring to Fort Mason. Oh, well, first of all, the thing that struck me is funny, haha, the ambulance driver would have an aid with him. A lot of those men that were on the ships, they were young geezers that just really didn't know much about medicine.
One man told me that he did an appendectomy on the ship. I says, "How could you do that?" He said, "There was nothing to it." He says he just opened them up and you saw this inflamed thing, you cut it out and you sewed him up again.
It was the same thing with the dentists. Instead of electricity, they had foot pedals that they would use to drill your teeth. A lot of them just never did any of this before. They were just guys and they had something that had to be done. Now, this is what I didn't see, but what I was told, and some fellas told me about what they did as far as dental work reconstruction, filling and so forth and so on.
Like I said, they had this foot-- I says, "What'd you do with the foot pedal?" We'd go around-- A lot of them became aids or whatever you call it, ambulance drivers afterwards, because they were enamored of their job and was doing something. They had no training.
Anyway, this one guy was saying he was out in the field there, they picked up all these guys that had been shot, big abdominal wounds and everything else. They didn't have any, they just picked them up and they brought them to the closest place, like the dispensary or wherever it was. Not our dispensary, but wherever.
The guy was saying that this aid that was picking these people, he says, "They're howling back there and they're-- Can I give them something for their pain?" The driver says, "Yes" there's a handful of pills there. Just give them." He says, "Well, I don't know what they are." He says, "Doesn't make any difference, it's all APC." That's what they had in those days. I don't know what APC is now, Cedron or something like that. That's all they had.
As the guys came back and they were beginning to discover sulfa and penicillin, now that was really the turning point of medicine. I think, of course, I don't really know. I can't say that I'm not a medical person.
Conklin: What ailments did you see in the returning servicemen? Any kind of strange tropical diseases? Were men quarantined at Fort Mason?
Amelia: Well, they would do all that on the ship. They would have medical personnel on the ship, and they would segregate them. These were men coming from the Philippines and from the islands out there, Okinawa and whatever.
Conklin: What does these--
Amelia: They would take them-- I told you before that they had a-- and I don't know whether do they still have it or not, but they would have a train that would be at the foot of Aquatic Park.
Conklin: [unintelligible 00:04:59]
Amelia: It went right to Letterman.
Conklin: What sorts of ailments were commonly coming back from--
Amelia: Wounds? Nothing--
Conklin: No skin rashes? No intestinal parasites?
Amelia: Not that I know of. Maybe there was but that-- Then the ones that Letterman couldn't handle, they were flown to Travis Air Force Base. Where's that up? Around Fairfield?
Conklin: Yes. They did a lot of work up there.
Conklin: How did the Fort Mason port of embarkation change since you were there a long time from World War II to the Korean War? What was different? What was the feelings like?
Amelia: Well, now the girls were being replaced by military men. There were aids and so forth, and they knew a little about medicine. Then you would see more men there. There was all different kinds of people that were brought in. There was this business of the sick and the dying coming in from the Philippines. That was terrible.
Conklin: Then the Korean--
Amelia: Then it simmered down a little.
Conklin: That wasn't happening? There wasn't that sort of crisis feeling during the Korean War?
Amelia: No, after that crisis was over. Then in the Korean War-- Was it the Korean War? We sent military aids over. We didn't send men to fight, but we were showing them how to fight. I remember they had American uniforms and things like that. The dispensary was up on the hill there. When you can just look down, you can see these ships that were--
Conklin: How did your work change between those two wars?
Amelia: Like I said, these young soldiers would come over there and you almost didn't know them from the Americans because they wore American garments and hats and stuff. When you got closer to them, you could see it was Korean, something like that. It was an assistant group or something like that. Was Korean-- Was that pretty bad? I don't remember.
Conklin: Well--
Amelia: We got over that pretty quickly, didn't we?
Conklin: It seems like it. The tone of Fort Mason was very different.
Amelia: It changed completely, yes.
Conklin: How was--
Amelia: Then there was a-- I don't know, my brothers now went to Germany, and like you asked me before, what was I doing, I didn't have much time to fool around or do anything because my mother was crying and praying all the time for her two boys. I was the only one there that was there. I didn't have time to do any chasing around or anything like some of the others did.
Conklin: Since you talked a lot to the returning soldiers from World War II, what was happening with the Japanese war brides program?
Amelia: Oh, that was something else. Now, when the war was Japan, there was Okinawa and all of that. That was terrible because the Japanese had intended the world domination for many, many years. Even in the Hawaiian islands and in the Philippines.
Conklin: These war brides coming back to Fort Mason--
Amelia: Later on when things started simmer down and the soldiers, you were starting to fraternize with these pretty Japanese girls. There was no question about it. They would go over there. Then when their tour of duty was up, then the next wave of soldiers came over there, and everything was all set up already. These girls would do housekeeping for them.
Conklin: Then when they brought these women back, did they all come to Fort Mason?
Amelia: They didn't allow them. The army wouldn't allow that. The army officially didn't allow fraternization with the enemy.
Conklin: Then there wasn't a lot of Japanese war brides?
Amelia: Of course, no. Before that, there was a lot of fooling around back and forth. There were a lot of illegitimate Japanese American babies.
Conklin: Did you have to help them medically at Fort Mason?
Amelia: No, we didn't have anything to do with that. Later on, like I said, there was a lot of babies that the Jacks wouldn't acknowledge and the Americans couldn't bring them over. They didn't want to, but there was a lot of-- What do you call them? Japanese-American babies. What was her name? Pearl Buck. She started a movement over there where she took care of all of these-- not all, but mostly these orphans. Then later on, the soldiers were allowed to bring their war brides over.
Conklin: Did you ever meet these women?
Amelia: No, I didn't.
Conklin: They didn't come to Fort Mason?
Amelia: No, except that the couple of the women that I had worked with, they hated the thing that their son were marrying Japanese girls. "What am I going to do? I'm going back to Iowa with a Japanese baby."
Conklin: What about the--
Amelia: That was in the beginning.
Conklin: What about the Australian war brides? Did you ever see any of them [unintelligible 00:10:44]?
Amelia: We didn't get to see them. I didn't think they came through our way, did they?
Conklin: Okay. Well, if you didn't see them-
Amelia: No.
Conklin: -I don't know. When the Hampton Young soldiers, some of them fresh from the hills, arrived in San Francisco, what role did the gay community play in--
Amelia: We had no gay-- We didn't know anything about that in those days. You mean lesbians and gays?
Conklin: Yes. I thought we had--
Amelia: Homosexuals?
Conklin: I thought we had discussed the fact that a lot of the men found the young servicemen very attractive.
Amelia: There was, but as later on as the soldiers were billeted at Fort Mason, they would stay there, and they'd go out on the town. Naturally, they'd go down to Drift Down to Polk Street, which was close by to Van Ness Avenue, and that's where the original homosexual men, never ladies, hung out, and guys would come back. At that time, men were working with me.
At that time, I had gone through these other departments, and I was back at the front desk, and so taking care of the charts and the files. There was a couple of guys working in there with me, and I would hear them talking together, because I was busy doing my work. Well, busy, busy all the time.
I could hear them, and they were talking about somebody went out last night because they were with somebody. Oh boy, what a wonderful time they had. They went down to Pinocchio's, which was the-- Well, Pinocchio was a different kind of a thing. It wasn't a homosexual thing, it was--
Conklin: No.
Amelia: It was female impersonators. Everybody [unintelligible 00:12:28] a couple of bucks to spend would go to Pinocchio, because it was a nice joint. Some of them would go home with these guys. Oh God, they were treated royally, and they thought it was wonderful. The guys weren't there long. They were just interim-- Whatever I'm trying to say.
Conklin: In transit?
Amelia: In transit, yes, before they went home.
Conklin: Okay.
Amelia: Now, gee, [laughs] you see that in television and everything. It's just a different world.
Conklin: A different world altogether. Can you describe your job and your part in shipping food to Korea? What happened to the surplus on the docks and all of that.
Amelia: Then I went from one job to the next. I worked in a dental clinic, and then I worked in a laboratory, and then in the X-ray department, and the men's physical section, that's where I learned about all of these social diseases, of course, of-- whatever. Then they would put me where they would need me, and the next thing I know, the girl and the veterinary, the clerk, she was gone. Well, we'll send [unintelligible 00:13:47] there. That's what I did, was just paperwork.
At that time, a lot of people were going back and forth. There were men that were sent overseas, and then they could take their families with them, and the families would have parakeets and dogs and cats and so forth, and they would have to go through the veterinarian's office. That's where I would have to tell them that you can't take your dog unless he's got shots and stuff, and you can't take him to the Hawaiian Islands. Because I think it was a six-month's quarantine. He might as well leave. Then it's the same thing when the animals came back, some would bring back little monkeys and things like that. They were not permissible to be--
Conklin: What happened to the monkeys?
Amelia: Oh, Lord, I don't know, but they would bring all kinds of crazy things, and they would smuggle them in more or less. Then the veterinarians, actually were the Department of Agriculture. That's where they got their education, was through the--
Dr. Peterson, I guess, is the one that referred you to me or whatever, me to you. When he got out of the service, he still was a veterinarian, but-- What was I going to say? Oh, and the boys would come and tell the different stories when I was still at the front desk there. They would talk about how the shifts they kept on sending food over their food, because it would be on the list. You send so many tons this day, and then next month you'd have to send that many tons, or else your funds were cut off, so they would just keep on shipping stuff over there.
Conklin: What was happening to that cruise?
Amelia: Somebody was saying they were just rotting on the docks there. Well, nobody knows about this, but I mean, what would happen? You'd get a ton of bananas that nobody wants. Avocados, they would send tomatoes crates.
Conklin: Then what about the return trip? You were telling me about the seagulls and--
Amelia: There were so many military men that came over, and then they would also-- they'd have extra food from the men when-- You never asked me this, but what was the situation here in the United States? We couldn't get any meat. We couldn't get any this, and you couldn't get any of that, couldn't get any--
Conklin: [crosstalk] in the Korean War not World War II.
Amelia: I don't know when that was. When did we have those food stamps?
Conklin: That was World War II.
Amelia: Yes, food stamps.
Conklin: That was World War II. During Korea, you actually had plenty of food, but there was a lot being wasted, is what I'm hearing.
Amelia: Yes, that's it. There was a lot being wasted, because the soldiers, the men on the ships would be given-- There had to be a certain amount of food and stuff for the men. Then when they would come back, they couldn't bring it back the ship with food on it, so they'd have to get rid of it.
Conklin: How would they do that?
Amelia: A lot of it was just thrown overboard. That's why their ships were being followed by the seagulls, and everybody wondered, "How come there's ships coming in?" Now that's all just talk. I don't know.
Conklin: Well, those are interesting stories.
Amelia: The government would think it was terrible for a person to say such a thing. That's a bunch of lies.
Conklin: Well, stories [crosstalk]--
Amelia: It would be just like if you had a boarding house, and you had 50 people, and so whoever you were getting the food, whoever was supplying you would send you enough food for 50 people, then all of a sudden you'd have 10 people. [laughs] What would you do? You wouldn't say, "I don't need this anymore."
Conklin: Could you tell me about the horses or the mules?
Amelia: Oh, yes, there was a lot of animals.
Conklin: That were kept under the bridge above Fort Point.
Amelia: Yes, they had a big--
Conklin: Tell me about that.
Amelia: I think they still have those brick stables, those four brick places. In fact, that's next to the last place that I worked. I was working for the veterinarians now, and they were all food inspection, but before that, in the early days--
Conklin: Oh, I see. I thought it was while you were there. That's okay. We know about--
Amelia: No, but while I was there, they were sending animals overseas.
Conklin: What kind of animals?
Amelia: Well, there were a lot of animals. There were a lot of animals. In fact, they used to train animals over there, because they had--
Conklin: [unintelligible 00:18:25]
Amelia: [crosstalk] They had three or four different kinds of animals. They were guard dogs. Now they have these dogs that sniff cocaine and so forth, and so on.
Conklin: What other kind of animals did you have [unintelligible 00:18:39]--
Amelia: They had dogs too there.
Conklin: Mostly dogs. There weren't horses or mules in the days you were there?
Amelia: I didn't come in contact with that, but I heard these stories about the mules that they sent, because the mules were surefooted, and they'd go like up in the Grand Canyon, where you couldn't hardly walk, and you certainly couldn't take any supplies.
These mules, smart animals, they put one foot in front of the other one, and they had a lot of mules there at the-- They even had ships. In fact, I thought you were going to ask me that, I would've showed you some pictures that they had, where they had to clean up after the animals, and so forth and so on.
Conklin: Onboard the ships.
Amelia: Onboard the ships.
Conklin: During World War II? Earlier?
Amelia: No, they weren't so worried about human lives then.
Conklin: At the end of World War II, and actually during the war, there were a lot of very large-scale events at Fort Mason. In June of '45, there was an open house for a hospital ship, The Ernest Hinds, and 24,000 people came. Did you go to those big events?
Amelia: No, I didn't. No.
Conklin: Your area was quiet pretty much--
Amelia: [crosstalk] I was just a little, old clerk. They had the Fort Mason-- In fact, Fort Mason's Officers mess is still open. They still have occasions. They still have parties and things there because it had a beautiful view and it was a lovely thing. I used to go there quite a lot. They used to do a lot of gambling too with the slot machines and things. You didn't know that?
Conklin: No. [unintelligible 00:20:28]
Amelia: In the enlisted men's clubs. I couldn't remember that. That was the first time I ever knew anything about that, but the nickels would all come down. I remember one time I got a bunch of nickels and I said to the guy next to me, "Give me your hand. Get hold all these nickels." [laughs]
Conklin: Was it common to go out after work for a drink with the people that you worked with? Did people socialize a lot together after work?
Amelia: You mean the employees or with the military?
Conklin: Well, just anybody that--
Amelia: Yes, I used to. We used to go out before dinner.
Conklin: Would you eat down at the Fisherman's Wharf area?
Amelia: Well, I was not that social because I couldn't very well-- Because my mother was crying about her boys coming home from Germany. What ended first? The Japanese war first? No, Germany. Wasn't it Germany, the one that was first? Yes.
Conklin: Do you remember that day? The V-J Day, Victory in Japan.
Amelia: Yes, and the VE day.
Conklin: What was the tone like?
Amelia: Which came first? The VE day, victory in Germany, Europe?
Conklin: What was the tone like at Fort Mason at VJ Day?
Amelia: I don't remember so much, but I do remember on the outside, oh God, everybody was jumping up and down on Marcus Street and hugging and kissing each other.
Conklin: There wasn't a huge celebration going on [crosstalk]--
Amelia: I'm sure there must have been, but I was not that social. There is a lot of celebrations down there.
Conklin: What was the closing ceremony like at Fort Mason? Were you there? Did you see the closing ceremony?
Amelia: No, I was working. I went from pillar to post. As the jobs closed down, I was glad that I was able to hold onto my job. I wanted to hang onto it until I at least retired. I don't even know what the date was when Fort Mason closed, but then I remember there was a little while there that I actually went over to the Oakland Army terminal, because that was a supply depot. Then all of our ships went over there, and that was the end of that. What else was I going to say? I forgot what I was saying.
Conklin: It's okay.
Amelia: Oh, about all the parties. Every time an officer or somebody of note, we'd always have a big to-do up at the officer’s club at the Fort Mason.
Conklin: When they left the service, or they got an award or a promotion?
Amelia: Yes, there was always somebody. We'd all take up a collection for the big wigs, more or less. [laughs]
Conklin: What sorts of presents would you get them?
Amelia: Oh, I don't know. We'd all put in for something and then would give them Lord knows what? I don't remember.
Conklin: You were never in charge of buying the--
Amelia: Oh, no, no, no. I was just a clerk.
Conklin: Did they open the somethings at these parties?
Amelia: Oh, yes.
Conklin: What were in the boxes?
Amelia: I don't remember.
Conklin: What were the parties like? Were they [crosstalk]--
Amelia: We weren't supposed to give the officers things, presents and gifts. That [00:24:00] was a no-no, but still they did, they took up a collection. Just like they do when some lady was going to have a baby, we'd take a book collection, [laughs] or a shower or something like that.
Conklin: What was the climate at these parties?
Amelia: Oh, it was fun. Everything was over, the war was over. I wasn't there. Then we moved to the old Letterman Hospital. You know those old wooden shacks they had there, before they built the-- I was working there for quite a while too.
Conklin: What were you doing there?
Amelia: Still clerical work. Looking at the food. The suppliers of the food that the army would consume, like ice cream and steaks and roast beef and stuff like that. All the food that the military would use was inspected by the-- There were a lot of people down on the pier there. They had big warehouses where they would-- right under the court tower. Of course, I would've to do all that paperwork.
Conklin: [laughs] What memorable people do you remember from your time working with the Army? Do any people come to mind that were just really memorable?
Amelia: Some were.
Conklin: Like who?
Amelia: I don't know. They used to invite me to the officers’ club, and to the NCO club right there. I worked right by the headquarters building here and the NCO club was right next door. I couldn't go there by [00:26:00] myself naturally, but I used to go over there and have drinkies and something to eat or something like that at lunchtime. At that time, everything was much more relaxed.
Conklin: What time period are we discussing?
Amelia: We're-- Golly, I don't know. [laughs] It all [crosstalk]
Conklin: '50s, late '50s, '60s?
Amelia: Probably in the '60s.
Conklin: You began?
Amelia: Then from there, the whole group, it became-- Instead of the Army transportation, it was under the area veterinarian and the post veterinarian. Then there was Stoneman-- What was the name of that place? They were the guys who were--
Conklin: Well, Stoneman?
Amelia: Yes, Stoneman, and all those other various places that we would serve things, serve food whatever it was. It had to be government-inspected. If it was government inspected, and if it I had anything to do with the military, naturally it would go through the veterinarians.
Conklin: Would you ever do any of the inspection--
Amelia: Oh, no.
Conklin: It's just paperwork?
Amelia: Just paperwork, yes.
Conklin: The people that were inspectors, what backgrounds did they have?
Amelia: Oh, they were veterinarians, officers. They came in as officers, the veterinarian.
Conklin: They actually just inspected food. They didn't inspect animals, it sounds like?
Amelia: Well, not--
Conklin: Interesting.
Amelia: I don't know what they did, but we had a lot of-- In those days, we had a big-- Down to South City there, we had a big, big, big, big corral there where they slaughtered animals. What was the name of that?
Conklin: I think it was the Armour Packing Plant.
Amelia: Yes, yes.
Conklin: It was a company plant.
Amelia: They had some gruesome stories about-- I didn't want to remember.
Conklin: You'd have to go down the--
Amelia: No, no, no. I could do the paperwork. So many millions of pounds of [crosstalk] tenderloin, so forth and so on.
Conklin: You'd get the meat for the army from South San Francisco?
Amelia: We'd never see them because our inspectors would go down there and look and see, and there was these liver and the heart and so forth. They had these flukes and things, and then they couldn't accept anything unless it was A1. That's where I finally wound up.
Conklin: Did you make any friends during your army years that you still stay in contact with?
Amelia: Well, no, because there were-- there were some, but they were from different-- not from the area here, they came-- Well, like the soldiers, Lord knows where they came from. They went back to where their roots were.
Conklin: In my mind, the situation was dire. You were working extremely quickly and hard. It was a time of strife.
Amelia: In the beginning.
Conklin: You were meeting people and then you'd never see them again. In my mind, that sets up a situation socially where you don't really get to have satisfying contact with people. It all sounded awfully quick. How did that affect you?
Amelia: Well, I don't know. There were men that would say, "Come on out and do this," and that and the other thing, but I wasn't that type. In those days, you either were a loose girl [laughs] or you weren't. I just wasn't. I was a good Catholic girl. [laughs]
Conklin: You couldn't go out with them at all?
Amelia: I would go out occasionally with different things, to go out to dinner or to their [00:30:00] parties and stuff like that, but no fooling around. I wasn't much of a one to fooling around. Were you?
[laughter]
Even when you were younger?
Conklin: The Conklin is now interviewing
Amelia: It's altogether different than it is now. Nowadays you say, "Hello, goodbye. Where did we sleep tonight?"
Conklin: What happened with the girls that were "a little looser" than you were? What happened to them and their-- Did the word get out what type of girls they were, let's say?
Amelia: Oh, sure.
Conklin: Did that affect their work?
Amelia: Not their work, no. They had their boyfriends and whatever waiting for them to pick them up. Well, it's going back to regular civilians again. Nurses were nurses, they were not army nurses. I wanted to tell you about the Army nurses that went on the ships and met the boys coming back overseas. [laughs]
Conklin: Well, we have a couple more minutes. Why don't you-
Amelia: Oh, no, this is all talk. This is the [unintelligible 00:31:05] You get these poor, lonely guys that had been away, and all they ever saw was these yellow girls. It was nice to see a white, purdy nurse who was available. They all had severance pay. They gave them their money right now. [laughs]
Conklin: Oh, and they ended up broke, huh?
Amelia: I guess so.
[00:31:37] [END OF AUDIO]
Soldiers lined up at Letterman Hospital
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 35288
"It was a pleasant place, and there was a certain amount of this, but I think Letterman was unique, and everybody who had ever heard anything about Letterman wanted to come here to serve on this Post. It was more like a family, a happy family." - James P. Geiger
Dr. James P. Geiger
James P. Geiger discusses being an Intern at letterman hospital between 1952-1953 and then a cardiac surgeon between 1964-1969.
Conklin: [00:00] The date is June 17, 1997. My name is Sara Conklin, and I am interviewing Dr. James P. Geiger, Cardiac Surgeon for Letterman Hospital from 1952 to 1953, and then 1964 to 1969. I can see from the front of a piece of paper he has that he wants to correct the information I have already put on the tape about what his position was in 1952 and 1953 versus 1964. So Dr. Geiger, what is this about?
Dr. Geiger: [00:39] Well, when I first came to Letterman was in June of 1952 as an intern, fresh out of medical school and looking forward to learning and making my world the medical profession.
Conklin: [01:00] Then you came back in 1964 as a full-on doctor. Yes?
Dr. Geiger: [01:06] Actually, I was a doctor in 1952, I had that Medical Doctor Certificate when I finished medical school. The internship is a form of post-graduate training and also an opportunity to get some practical, hands-on experience.
Conklin: [01:26] Let's start the interview with discussing some of your background. Where were you born?
Dr. Geiger: [01:30] In a small town in Pennsylvania in the soft coal mining district in a town called Connellsville, spelled C-O-N-N-E-L-L-S-V-I-L-L-E.
Conklin: [01:44] And when were you born?
Dr. Geiger: [01:46] September 21, 1925.
Conklin: [01:49] Who were your parents?
Dr. Geiger: [01:51] My father was James Luther Geiger. He was an employee of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, and my mother was a former schoolteacher, Bertha Naomi Petenbrink Geiger. Both of them were what we would look back on and call Pennsylvania Dutchmen. Both had had farm growth and living before they came to this small town.
Conklin: [02:23] Do you have siblings, and where are you in the birth order?
Dr. Geiger: [02:26] I was the second child. My sister was 3 years older, and she had gone to nursing school. Unfortunately, she died at the age of 60 of lung cancer.
Conklin: [02:42] Were you raised by your parents?
Dr. Geiger: [02:44] Yes, indeed. Except that my father died when I was 5. He had a cancer.
Conklin: [02:50] Did your mother remarry?
Dr. Geiger: [02:51] No, she never did, and she was one tough, but gentle woman.
Conklin: [02:53] Where did you go to school, and what was the highest grade you attained?
Dr. Geiger: [02:56] Well, I went to public school in our town. The town was small enough that we could walk to school, and finished 12 years of public school education. Then started in a private college, Washington and Jefferson College in Washington, Pennsylvania, all male students. I enrolled there 2 weeks after I graduated from high school, had a partial scholarship. It was a fabulous school. It had a reputation of being one of the best pre-medical education programs in the country, the eleventh oldest college in the United States, and one that I hold very dear.
Conklin: [03:46] What year did you graduate?
Dr. Geiger: [03:48] Well, actually, I had an interruption in college by virtue of the Draft in January, 1944, and after 2-1/2 years in the Army as an enlisted man, originally in the Infantry and then as a Corpsman with a combat engineer outfit. I went back to college 2 weeks after I got out of the Army, and graduated officially in August of 1948, then went on into medical school a couple of weeks later.
Conklin: [04:33] So we noted in your questionnaire that you were indeed a Medic in World War II. What was that like, and did that affect your career choice?
Dr. Geiger: [04:45] Not to a major degree, because I was already enrolled as a premedical student. I look back and I think possibly the biggest influence on my choice of medicine as a career was the kindly family doctor who was taking care of my father when I was like 5 years old. I can still remember seeing him coming to the house to see my dad.
Conklin: [05:13] Great. We have notes in your file now about your Army career, so we do not need to reinvent the wheel, but I would like to know what being "adopted" into the 1950 Class of West Point meant and how it might have affected your career.
Dr. Geiger: [05:34] When I was assigned as Chief of Surgery at the Hospital at West Point, this was a choice assignment, and I chose it as a place to go after I finished my general surgical training. A large number of the men who were teaching at the Military Academy were just a shade younger than I, but most of them were graduates of the Class of 1950 from West Point. And some 3 or 4 different families lived in the building where we lived. We became friends and unless you were a total jerk, most of the time, someone got interested in you and would adopt you into the class and include you in their social events, and you became one of them. It was a wonderful experience. We got to know some of these people very closely, and one of them later became the Dean of the Academy, and one of them followed me out here. I have even had him as a patient twice, once in Korea and once here. So, those were things that influenced my military career and actions significantly. I cherish having been adopted, and later the one man was instrumental in getting me an honorary appointment into the West Point Society Chapter that is here in the Bay Area.
Conklin: [07:28] My guess is that would be nothing but helpful in a military situation. West Point people are very well respected. Did the West Point patina sort of bless your efforts?
Dr. Geiger: [07:45] I do not know whether it particularly did or not. I think that my efforts were probably blessed the first few months I was in my surgical rotation of my internship, when I had the privilege of working with a surgeon who was also the Commander of the Hospital, Leonard D. Heaton. One day, at the time of surgery, we were finishing a procedure, and he asked me what I intended to do when I finished my internship. I said, "Well, I'll probably get out of the Army and wind up finding a surgical residency some place, because that is what I want to do." And he said, "When we finish here, we will go upstairs to Personnel, and you tell them I have told you, even though a lot of people do not know it, I am going to Washington to man Walter Reed Hospital, and I will see to it that you have a residency there if you want it." So, that was a real stroke of good fortune.
Conklin: [09:00] How did you feel when you heard that?
Dr. Geiger: [09:01 Elated. First of all, to be chosen by a man who was so highly respected and secondly, to have been literally handed the opportunity to get what I wanted most to do.
Conklin: [09:15] That was wonderful. This is a very awkward and weird question, but are you a really good surgeon? You probably know that, right?
Dr. Geiger: [09:24] Well, I think that I am. . .
Conklin: [09:25] Did you impress him, I mean that is a very impressive thing to say.
Dr. Geiger: [09:29] Well, I worked hard, and I had a sense of responsibility, and I'm sure that my relationship with my mother in the depression years instilled in me the work ethic. I worked parttime as a kid from the time I was in second grade.
Conklin: [09:52] I'm thinking it is just more than being a hard worker. Is there any particular . . . I mean you have to work in a very small area, you have to be very precise. There are some skills there that seem beyond just a good hard worker.
Dr. Geiger: [10:09] Well, there are skills that are developed, and that was part of the training program. Actually, when I was a Corpsman during World War II, we were taught some basic skills, including how to sew or suture, how to give shots and things of this sort. I was very proud of the fact that there was something else that I learned and that is what I throw into the category of the art of medicine. Even as a Corpsman, a lot of the guys or GI's would call me "Doc," knowing full well that I wasn't. It was a good feeling.
Conklin: [10:54] The "art of medicine" - what is that?
Dr. Geiger: [10:58 ] Well, I think that is the difference between a scientist and a technician. It is somebody who has a feeling for the patients, a feeling to give them a little bit more than say what the book says you should be giving them. It is to make them comfortable with the understanding of their problem and what you feel you can do to help them and if you cannot really help them, to soften the impact of the problem.
Conklin: [11:35] In 1952, you came to Letterman from 13 months in Korea as Chief of Surgery. What was your position, and how would you characterize your job when you first got here.
Dr. Geiger: [11:49] Well, I have to change the date, because it was actually '64, and the Army had four hospitals - had two MASH hospitals, one General Hospital at Pusan, and then the biggest 400-bed EVAC hospital, the 121.
Conklin: [11:50] These were all Korean?
Dr. Geiger: [11:50] Yes. We were the referral point for any of the complex problems, and at that time, I was fully trained both in General Surgery and in Cardiothoracic Surgery. It was natural that I would be the Chief of the Surgery Department and also the Chief of Professional Services. It was a well-knit, well-running organization whenever I got there. I can take no credit for building, I just tried to build upon it. One thing that was unique about the place was that it was old quonset huts with almost exposed wiring on porcelain insulators and concrete floors, and yet we turned out some phenomenal work. I took the Hospital through an accreditation for the American College of Surgeons accreditation. We had the same accreditation as one of the major hospitals does here in the States and had a phenomenal record as far as a low incidence of infection and the quality of work that was turned out. And again, I was just one of many who helped to synchronize the work and function of others.
Conklin: [13:55] Was it a particularly frenetic atmosphere?
Dr. Geiger: [13:57] Periodically it could be because we had a couple of other missions. One was not just to support the MASH Hospitals that were up along the demilitarized zone but we would get casualties or injuries from, as they called it, the result of U.N. action, and some of them could be motor vehicle accidents. Many of them were from shell explosions because the Koreans would be trying to salvage the metal from some of the shells that had not exploded. A lot of eye injuries, a lot of general body injuries, and the first case of case of gas gangrene I ever saw was at that Hospital.
Conklin: [14:49] Gas gangrene?
Dr. Geiger: [14:50] One of the major hazards of warfare in previous history in World War I and the Civil War, and others, was because they had no effective way of treating it, and a major amputation was the only way they could treat it. Sometimes, you are not able to amputate the part that gets infected, but it's a form of a family of bacteria, Clostridia, and it's related to tetanus, only it is infinitely worse.
Conklin: [15:26] So, you get to San Francisco, you are fresh out of Korea, what was your position, and how would you characterize your first level of responsibility here on Post?
Dr. Geiger: [15:38] Well, I was Assistant Chief of the Cardiothoracic Surgery Service, and was given a lot of responsibility and a lot of opportunity to develop some special techniques in congenital heart surgery. Fortunately, the man I was working with, Colonel Elmar Aronstan, he was at times a crotchety old devil but he was a very likable person, and he became a friend. He worked in much the same fashion as I like to work. He worked long hours, he worked hard, and he would get involved with the patient and their families, and it was a very rewarding experience. The opportunity to care for these kids . . . about 30% of what we were seeing in the way of heart cases, a number were retired, some were active-duty GI's and members of their family, obviously, and then probably '65-'66, we were seeing more of the patients who were returning from Vietnam, the casualties coming out of the War there, and that presented a different set of problems, one of them being what I called high-velocity lung injuries. We worked out a way to handle some of these problems, and it was reported at one of the major conventions and published some information that had never previously seen print.
Conklin: [17:48] What are the kinds of wounds that are specific to the Vietnam War versus the Korean War. Are there any major differences?
Dr. Geiger: [18:03] Well, there were some. Originally they had rather primitive weapons in Vietnam, but a lot of bacterial infections were present, but then they would. . . . well, I guess they were Russian and Chinese weapons, the Russian AK-47 was a higher-velocity rifle, and also some of the munitions, the mines and artillery rounds would, because of the velocity of the missile that caused the injury, it would create a greater degree of tissue damage, and we were seeing things that many of us thought were unique. My previous experience had been both in World War II and in Korea, so they were different.
Conklin: [19:14] Being a lay person and not a surgeon, I am guessing that there is more tissue loss and you were stuck with larger holes to fill, or what?
Dr. Geiger: [19:27] That's part of it, or damage of, or larger involvement of adjacent structures - nerves, arteries, veins. Yes, these things did exist previously, but they just literally blow away tissue. I remember one man who literally lost 15 pounds off his backside. We saw a lot of lung problems, seeing an entity at that time that was called "shockla." They were reporting that so many of these men didn't make it back to the States. It had a mortality rate of over 90%.
Conklin: [20:22] What was "shockla?"
Dr. Geiger: [20:24] The lungs would literally get . . . it was the end organ of major infection, major trauma, and the lung would fill up with bloody fluid, and they would literally suffocate, they could not get enough oxygen into their body.
Conklin: [20:41] And you could not stop the leakage?
Dr. Geiger: [20:43] It was poorly understood, and even to this day, it was a problem in civilian medicine. It has been renamed to Respiratory Distress Syndrome, but when I went to Vietnam, that was one of my goals to try and come up with a program that would allow us to treat and correct some of this problem. My concept was based on some experience and research that we were doing with some of our patients at Letterman at the time, clinical research, not so much laboratory, but clinical. We were seeing various cardiovascular problems, and they would have some secondary lung changes, and well, I put it in the category of serendipity. If you are receptive to a solution to a problem, you are quite likely to find it.
Conklin: [21:56] Is this, not that we need to go into all of the ins and outs of this, but in case someone is listening to this tape and wants to find out more about this lung situation, it was written up . . . where would they find this information?
Dr. Geiger: [22:12] There have been several books written about it. I think that some of the texts that have been written overlook a few of the obvious facts, what I think are obvious. I had the opportunity to present this at the Western Surgical Association meeting, and it was published in the medical journal, "Chest" in April '71.
Conklin: [22:50] Great. You mentioned bacterial infections. Was that ever a problem for the Hospital? Did people bring things back from Vietnam or Korea, let's say, that became a biohazard where you had to have quarantine situations?
Dr. Geiger: [23:13] The biohazard was predominantly to the patient. There was an entity, a bacteria called Pseudomonas pseudomallei. This literally is a bacteria that grows in dead tissue, or in a very low oxygen environment, and it is carried much like the Clostridia infection. It was a normal flora in the intestinal tract of the water buffalo in Vietnam. So the rice paddies got contaminated, and if a GI got injured and this stuff got in the tissue, then it was a major hazard to try and treat it.
Conklin: [24:25] Were you successful in getting it treated?
Dr. Geiger: [24:29] We had some remarkable successes once we were able to identify what the thing was.
Conklin: [24:34] Great. Let's see, you lived on Post, at 512B Washington Boulevard, with your wife and your new son. What was the social climate on Post as compared to other duty stations
Dr. Geiger: [24:50] Comparison is possible only in retrospect, because that was my first assignment as a military officer, and we had some nice, close neighbors. Most were very affable and friendly, and once in a while, you would find that some little kid down the block would get in a squabble and you would wind up with, "Hey, what are you doing throwing rocks at my window?"-type thing, as in any housing environment, but it was extremely rare to have any of these things. The kids were pretty much disciplined. Their family knew discipline, and the kids consequently learned discipline.
Conklin: [25:42] Did you ever find the social situations on Post coming into the work place at all or were they totally separate? If your wife made the General's wife mad, would you hear about it later?
Dr. Geiger: [26:58] I don't know if she ever made the General's wife mad, but I think that there were certain, well, I guess, social climbing situations that arose, and a few petty jealousies from one wife to another, perhaps, and one's appearance, one's furnishings, one's car - sometimes became a subject of conversation.
Conklin: [26:29] If it was a little under snuff, would you basically get the word that you were to make it better and put on a better show?
Dr. Geiger: [26:40] I know that that has happened, but I never experienced any of it. There was one funny story, if I can interject it, that occurred when I was at the hospital the West Point some years later. This one doctor was walking across the parade ground carrying an umbrella. It was raining. Under ordinary circumstances, that would be considered a very appropriate thing to do, but an officer did not carry an umbrella when he was in uniform.
Conklin: [27:15] Just supposed to get wet, huh?
Dr. Geiger: [27:17] You were supposed to wear a raincoat and cap cover, and one of the senior West Point officers saw this man, and was infuriated that he would violate the custom as it existed. He called the Hospital and said, "I want that man to see the psychiatrist." I said, "Sir, he is the psychiatrist." (Laughter)
Conklin: [27:43] That's a great story. We're getting down to the end of this tape. I am a little worried to ask you something that will be big and so maybe we ought to just turn the tape over.
SIDE B
Conklin: [00:06] You brought up the fact that the Presidio, maybe because of the presence of the Sixth Army, was a pretty formal place to be, but you felt outside of that realm in your Hospital world. Can you go into that a little bit.
Dr. Geiger: [00:20] Well, we relished or cherished the relationship with the Post, and would frequently go to the Retirement Parades, and the pomp and ceremony were indeed part of military life, but the formalities existed in the front office at the Hospital. For example, when I first reported as a First Lieutenant, I went into the Adjutant's office and snapped to attention, gave a salute and presented my orders. At that time, military courtesy and discipline were expected, but some of the things which I know exist in the Infantry Post which this was, we did not experience to nearly the same extent, although the Commander's Office was a place where informality did not really apply. The flag was there, you did not go in without an appointment or an invitation, and if you passed the Commander, why you paid the proper respects. But as far as the medicine and the practice itself was concerned, I felt that there wasn't any better.
Conklin: [02:01] Was there a special esprit de corps, a special feeling, you knew you were all doing really important things?
Dr. Geiger: [02:07] To say the esprit de corps was high is an understatement. It was a large Hospital but it was still a small Hospital. Everybody tried to accommodate. If you thought there was an urgent thing that had come up, you could expect that this would be accommodated. You would be helped to resolve this in as early and expeditious fashion as possible. I compare it with, say, the Hospital at Ft. Sam Houston where I had served. It was a pleasant place, and there was a certain amount of this, but I think Letterman was unique, and everybody who had ever heard anything about Letterman wanted to come here to serve on this Post. It was more like a family, a happy family.
Conklin: [03:18] That's great. I hadn't heard that it really had national standing in the Army hierarchy of Hospitals. . . .
Dr. Geiger: [03:28] Very definitely . . .
Conklin: [03:29] This was better than Walter Reed?
Dr. Geiger: [03:31] I don't know that I would say better, it was enough different - the locale, the people, and the way it worked out, it was a premier assignment.
Conklin: [03:44] This comes to mind - was it kind of like a younger and a more risk-taking, not scary risks, but willing to go the extra . . . .
Dr. Geiger: [03:56] Well, to go the extra mile was standard. You know the old joke about to do the impossible takes just a little longer . . . but, no, I don't know that it was necessarily risk-taking as such, but we certainly were in the forefront of a number of things in our department. There might have been a little professional jealousy from one department to another, but I don't know that I ever saw anything significant out of it.
Conklin: [04:37] We are going to be talking about the cardiac surgery in a few minutes. Let's go now to the polio epidemic. You were there for one of the last polio epidemics. What effect did that have on procedures and services at Letterman?
Dr. Geiger: [04:52] Well, it was a very scary time on the Post as it was in the City because, although they knew that this was a virus, you didn't know really how to protect yourself against it. If somebody had a cold, you could sort of avoid them, but if somebody was incubating polio, you had no way of knowing it. For example, seven people from the Post, came down with polio in that fall of 1952. I was particularly concerned because my wife was pregnant at the time, ready to deliver, and I was working on the Contagious Disease Ward. I would come home, change clothes in the basement, shower, and then I would see her. There were special isolation techniques that were instituted. Swimming pools were closed, you know, all sorts of measures were taken to try and prevent the spread of the polio. One of the Chiefs of Neurosurgery - he didn't come down with polio but his wife did with a terrible degree of paralysis.
Conklin: [06:20] What were iron lungs? You see them on . . .
Dr. Geiger: [06:24] That was the only form of respiratory support that we had at the time.
Conklin: [06:29] These people's lungs were involved?
Dr. Geiger: [06:31] No, it wasn't just the lungs, the muscles were paralyzed. You see, it was paralytic polio, and it wasn't just extremities, but the respiratory muscles were paralyzed. If they were not put into one of these iron lungs, they would die. I remember when I was in medical school, one of my classmates came down with polio and missed a whole year. One of the other fellow interns in '52 came down with bulbar polio and fortunately, it was transient, but I mean this was something that hit very close to home.
Conklin: [07:22] Was it the total topic of conversation?
Dr. Geiger: [07:25] It certainly was for quite a few months. Then, as the winter came on, why it became less of a hazard.
Conklin: [07:33 So what months and what year are we talking here?
Dr. Geiger: [07:36] I obviously remember October/November of 1952 most vividly. Our son was born in November of 1952, and working on the Contagious Disease Ward, I was quite anxious for my wife and the baby.
Conklin: [08:02] Because of specific personal relationships, Letterman was closely tied to efforts at Stanford Medical Center and the University of California, San Francisco. What were these relationships and these ties?
Dr. Geiger: [08:16] It was more Stanford than the University of California because they were both very close, but several of the people at the Stanford Hospital were consultants - consulting physicians and surgeons - at Letterman, and I have a booklet on some of the history of Letterman which I will share with you, and it outlines it a little more closely. But one of the strongest relationships was with Dr. Carlton Mathieson, he was Chairman of the Surgery Department at Stanford. He came to Letterman every Tuesday night, I think it was Tuesday, and we had Grand Rounds, teaching rounds. He also was instrumental . . .the Army initially did not have a lot of so-called Board-Certified Specialists, General Heaton included, initially was not Board-Certified, and working with Dr. Mathieson, General Heaton not only became certified as a superb surgeon but they set up a program of surgical residencies. This was the beginning of the major specialty training programs in the Army.
Conklin: [10:14] It started here?
Dr. Geiger: [10:15] It did.
Conklin: [10:15] Great.
Dr. Geiger: [10:18] Through that relationship.
Conklin: [10:19] What was the personal part of the relationship?
Dr. Geiger: [10:21] It struck me as being much closer than say, what I saw in my professors when I was in school. We would sit around a big table, they would ask questions, and if you didn't know, they would feed you the answer. Even as an intern, I was not only allowed to participate, but expected to be present and participate.
Conklin: [10:48] It sounds like a fabulous teaching . . .
Dr. Geiger: [10:50] It was a remarkable opportunity.
Conklin: [10:52] It happened because of two men that were specifically friends?
Dr. Geiger: [10:55] Yes.
Conklin: [10:57] Great. When we started talking, you corrected a date for me which has thrown me off a little here. Let's go back to when you were an intern at Letterman. Now that was '52 to '53?
Dr. Geiger: [11:13] Yes.
Conklin: [11:14] Okay, and then you came back in '64 and were here until '69.
Dr. Geiger: [11:19] Correct.
Conklin: [11:21] In '64, you returned to Letterman as Assistant to the Chief of Cardiovascular and Thoracic Surgery, and in '68, then you became the Chief.
Dr. Geiger: [11:32] Yes.
Conklin: [11:33] How did that important change of responsibility play out in your work and in your psyche?
Dr. Geiger: [11:40] Well, fortunately, working with Colonel Aronstan, I had been given a lot of responsibility and opportunity. It wasn't quite as frightening as it might have been otherwise, but the impact of "the buck stops here" was quite obvious and a very strong feeling. It was not that you couldn't talk with somebody else to help talk a problem through, but the final decision professionally, I was stuck with it.
Conklin: [12:20] What was your scariest decision?
Dr. Geiger: [12:22] Oh boy . . .
Conklin: [12:24] The one that really kept you awake at 3 o'clock in the morning.
Dr. Geiger: [12:29] There were enough wakeful times that I don't know that I can pinpoint one, but . . . .
Conklin: [12:34] Does anything come to mind?
Dr. Geiger: [12:36] There were . . . you know, if you couldn't come up with an answer to a problem that was confronting you, it was scary. We had a training program. There were interns and General Surgery residents who came through the Service, and it was our responsibility to share with them the development of their surgical skills, and there was a tendency to sort of rank the seriousness of certain operative procedures. Appendectomy is sort of routine, and there is one very basic, simple type of open-heart repair where you just close a hole in the upper part of the heart, a so-called atrial-septal repair. That was the first procedure that a thoracic or cardiac surgical resident would do, had a lot of practice using the other techniques of open-heart surgery prior to that, but this was the first case he would do. I remember one of the residents saying one day, "Well we have so and so on the schedule tomorrow, it's a simple ASD." I said, "None of these are simple. Every one of them is fraught with the potential for disaster, so don't ever assume that it is simple." You know, the irony of the thing is that this man had a complication related to the use of the heart-lung machine.
Conklin: [14:40] So it WAS dicey?
Dr. Geiger: [14:41] It was very dicey. I think that was just one example, but probably the one that hit me hardest was a little girl who had what they called heart block. The electrical circuitry within her heart was blocked in that her heart rate would either be extremely slow or sometimes it would stop, and we did not have a good permanent pacemaker. It was frightening to be faced with this dilemma. Medicine helped a little bit, but the concern is best described, I think, by the fact that even though she healed and her medication appeared to be effective, when she went home, shortly thereafter she died. Today, that would not occur because we have this electromechanical device called a pacemaker.
Conklin: [16:03] Did you have, as part of the Army system, the kind of leading-edge technology that the private sector had?
Dr. Geiger: [16:10] Absolutely. If we needed it, we could get it.
Conklin: [16:23] Okay. Let's see. In 1969, the Vascular Surgery Service split off from the Cardiothoracic program. How did this change in administration . . . how did this affect your work?
Dr. Geiger: [16:39] I'm not positive about that date, it might have been as early as '68, but at any rate, there were newer techniques in blood vessel surgery, which was vascular surgery, and more patients were coming in for surgical diagnosis and repair. At the same time, we were doing more open-heart surgery, and we had more of the casualties from Vietnam, and quite honestly, we were relieved, that the workload posed by the Vascular Surgery had been shifted to somebody else. Some of it we enjoyed doing very much, but there is a physical limit to how much you can do in any given day.
Conklin: [17:35] So did a large hunk of the staff leave and go over to this other area or did you hire new people?
Dr. Geiger: [17:44] No. I didn't hire them, the Surgeon General's Office transferred in a specialist in Vascular Surgery. He had been in Washington, and he was transferred out to Letterman to take the position as Chief of the Vascular Surgery Service.
Conklin: [18:05] And so, he . . .
Dr. Geiger: [18:08] Excuse me for interrupting, but incidentally he had received some of his training, well, a year ahead me at Walter Reed, and he had some experience working with two Army surgeons, Dr. Carl Hughes, and Dr. Ed Jahnke, both of whom had done some of the very first blood vessel repairs in Korea during the Korean War, I guess it was '51-'52.
Conklin: [18:50] Blood vessel repairs meaning taking tissue from some other source and sewing it onto to blood vessels?
Dr. Geiger: [19:02] Sometimes. Well sometimes, it was a matter as simple as sewing the edges of an artery back together, much like you would repair a seam in a dress. Occasionally they would borrow a vein from some place else in the body, much like they do now in coronary artery surgery.
Conklin: [19:30] Letterman was part of the Army's pioneering efforts in open-heart surgery in the late 1960s. What was your role, and can you comment on your work with children?
Dr. Geiger: [19:48] Letterman was not the first cardiac surgical program in the Army, but it was one of the earliest, and they had naturally to develop or acquire a heart-lung machine. Some techniques were done using a technique with hypothermia, where you would cool the patient and then you would have enough time that you could do a simple repair. I guess it was 1963, they started doing some valve repairs with some older equipment and then Colonel Aronstan came, and he had had some experience with the first Army program at Fitzsimmons Hospital. He started doing some of these repairs, some of the children. He was the first Army surgeon to do a total correction of what they call a transposition, where the blood vessels are like a mirror image, they were coming off the wrong place. But this was a major accomplishment. It was not the first one in the world, but I think it was the first one in the Army. Then he and I worked together on quite a few things, some other techniques that hadn't been done at Letterman before. We learned by going to meetings and being associated with a few other surgeons from major civilian universities. There is one thing about surgeons in particular, I think, and physicians, professional jealousies are very few. They are anxious to share what they have. For example, if we do some work and we report it in a journal, you pay to have it put there. You don't get paid to do this. And that has been true . . . . I finished a research project that I had to go to France and work with this man because I couldn't finish it here, and I did this at my own expense.
Conklin: [22:38] Interesting. What was the impact of the closure of the Letterman Animal Research Facility?
Dr. Geiger: [22:41] What I just said was part of that impact, and it occurred as a result, I guess antivivisectionists or animal rights people which I feel strongly is misguided. The one thing, which I think of value that came out of it, was an official program of ensuring that animals were cared for in a humane fashion. That is the one good thing that came out of this particular movement, but when I say it is misguided, I learned basic surgery skills on frogs, guinea pigs, dogs . . . . I couldn't have accomplished 1/1000th of the good that I feel I have done during my career if it had not been for that animal research experience. Was it BASIC research? No, it was skill development research. But some of the things, like treating these complex lung problems were a result of experimenting on animals where you would create the problem and then try to correct it, to figure out what caused it and how to keep it from recurring. One of the things that was done at the Letterman Research Institute was that we developed an advance model of the heart-lung machine, and it was marketed by one of the firms as the Letterman Pump. I can remember using that on many patients because it was versatile, it was reliable, and it just . . . well, permitted us to do a lot of things. . . . The Institute closed. There were several research projects going on, one the orthopedists had in bone growth to try and figure out a way to avoid some of the complications of bone injuries, war injuries, and they were working on retired racetrack greyhounds. Unfortunately, Senator Barbara Boxer got into this thing somehow, and the Secretary of Defense became so pressured that he stopped animal research. This also killed the one project I was doing on high-velocity lung injuries. I struggled to try and complete and acquire the information to the point of going to France and working with a French doctor over there. We were using pigs. We finally have the data, and I hope to be able to get it published this year, but so far it has cost me personally quite a few thousand dollars.
Conklin: [26:29] What was the climate like around the time of the closure? What was the mood of people, what was the talk? It must have been a very significant and very depressing . . .
Dr. Geiger: [26:41] Frustration, depression. How can they do this? How can we teach others how to take care of war wounds if we cannot utilize an animal model? You can't learn this from a computer. It just ISN'T possible. You can develop certain skills and techniques using a computer model and all of the animation, but it is not the same.
Conklin: [27:14] You talked about the family, the Letterman family. How did this closing animal research, how did this affect the family?
Dr. Geiger: [27:23] I don't know that I can comment on that part of it. We were so involved, obviously, in doing the day-to-day work that I guess the full impact of losing the research facility didn't hit us completely immediately.
Conklin: [27:45] Just later?
Dr. Geiger: [27:46] Yeah.
Conklin: [27:47] You mentioned the overwhelming amount of work and then the dedication of the staff. You want to talk about that a little?
Dr. Geiger: [27:56] Well, a lot of us, I think, were . . . I draw the comparison to . . . I’m like a bulldog, if I get my teeth in a problem, I won't let go 'til I get the answer. I remember one night, at 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning, we had been up with this one casualty who was so terribly ill, several of the other staff, the nursing staff, and the guy looked like he was going to die. He had made it back from Vietnam, but he just was in TERRIBLE condition. We sat there, the Chief of Medicine and some of the other staff, and myself, and we took a sheet of paper, drew a line down the center and what we know, what we don't know, what we know, what we don't know. . . . It was so terribly frustrating, and this basically what they now call the problem-oriented record, how you come to a solution. They have been teaching that in the schools now for a number of years, but it was our way of approaching this man's problem and suddenly, we looked at each other and said, "My God, he has Pseudomonas." We started him on one of the newer antibiotics, drained his pus pockets, and a day later, after this stuff had been growing in the laboratory, in the Bacteriology Lab, a little longer, they called all excited, and said, "Hey, you guys have a case of Pseudomonas pseudo mallei" "Thanks a lot."
Conklin: [30:00] We have about a minute left, sorry . . . .
Dr. Geiger: [30:02] I had one more thing about that particular guy. He had been a ranger, a paratrooper. He volunteered and went back to Vietnam.
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