The oral history interviews below were conducted by the interviewer, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project, and does not necessarily reflect Utah Tech University. The original audiocassette interviews and a copy of the transcript are held by the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project.
Great care has been taken to transcribe the recorded words as accurately as possible. Editorial corrections are shown in brackets. Final editing was completed in 2018. All transcripts were updated to reflect the university’s name change to Utah Tech University in 2022.
For written permission to use any part of this transcript contact the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. For written permission to use any part of this transcript housed in Utah Tech University Special Collections contact:
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St. George, UT 84770
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Barbara Joy (Vanderwest) Atkin | Oral History
Barbara Joy (Vanderwest) Atkin was interviewed on February 2, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. She related her experiences on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Barbara Joy (Vanderweyst) Atkin was interviewed on February 2, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. She related her experiences on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: You said your family moved [to St. George] when you were quite young. When was that? BJA: I was in the fifth grade when we moved here. [1939] MH: Where [did you move] from? BJA: [We moved] from the northwest. [My family was involved in] road construction. We had [lived] all over. MH: [Did] you finish school here? BJA: I did, but I never finished college. I married after one year of college. Then I [became] involved [with] the Atkin ranching family, and from there on [my time] has been [spent] ranching. [Laughter] MH: Was your husband [Rudger] Clayton [Atkin]? BJA: Right. MH: Your ranching operation is to the south on the Arizona Strip bordering [part of the Grand Canyon]-Parashaunt [National] Monument. Tell a little bit about when you first went out [to] the [Arizona] Strip. BJA: The first time I went out on the [Arizona] Strip was to accompany a trumpet player [Greg Snow, who] was going out to attend church at Mt. Trumbull near Bundyville. We had a flat tire [on the way]. Clayton came by and helped change the tire. That was my introduction to the Arizona Strip! MH: You met Clayton over a flat tire! [Laughter] What was going on, a concert at Mt. Trumbull? BJA: No, just church services. MH: You married Clayton and how many children [did you have]? BJA: We have four sons. [Jerry, Brent, Doyle and Troy] MH: How many of them are involved in the ranching operation? I know that all of them are quite successful. BJA: They all started out [young] learning to drive a truck. The oldest one [Jerry] learned [to drive] by [the time he was] eight years old. The others thought they should too. Jerry drove the truck at eight. Jerry knew fairly early there was not room for all of them [at the ranch], so he started working in town. The second boy, Brent, was the one [who] had a great love and much talent with cattle. He [could] identify a cow [or] calf almost immediately ─ even when he was driving the big herd. MH: That is a talent. BJA: It is. That is a talent. It was his family that took over the ranch until his death. Now we are looking forward to his sons [who] want to carry on. Who knows what is ahead for them? [Laughter] MH: [Inaudible] BJA: Doyle is the next one, the third in line. He did not have to take the responsibility as early as the others. The youngest son [Troy] is seven years younger. He worked the ranch until he finally decided that Brent had enough ownership in it and that maybe that was not the way for him to go. He has been a great deal of help to me since Brent’s death because he knows the ranch [so] well. MH: Was Clayton’s father, Rudger [Clawson Atkin]? BJA: That is right. MH: How did he get started on the [Arizona] Strip? BJA: It started [with] the [two] generations before, his [grandfather William Atkin and his] father, Joseph Atkin, down at Atkinville [Washington County, Utah]. MH: [That] is now [Sun River]. BJA: [It] is now [Sun River] and [that is] where they started. They started moving toward the [Arizona] Strip with [each] generation. When we were [first] married, we did not have a big outfit. Rudger and his brothers, Anthony and “Joe” [Joseph], were partners. They split up soon after we married. Rudger and Clayton went one way and “Joe” and Anthony the other way. [There] were small ranchers, homesteaders, and we spent most of our lifetime buying different allotments until we felt like we had an operation that would support [us] and not [be] so big that we needed lots of help, but big enough that we could manage. There is a permit of about 1,500 [head of cattle year round]. MH: What breed of cattle are you running? BJA: We started out with straight Herefords. Then we [began] doing some cross breeding with Angus and Red Salers. [There was] one thing that made quite a bit of difference in the operation. When Brent finished [college at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah County, Utah, he] spent quite a lot of time [living] in the sheep wagon calving heifers. He finally decided we [should] get some [Longhorn] bulls and breed to [those] first-calf heifers [to alleviate calving problems]. MH: [Do] you still have some Longhorns out there? BJA: We do. It works well. We do not have to pull [help with the birth of] her calf. The [Longhorn breeds] little [calves] on those first-calf heifers. We [wean] them off by late April or early May [and sell them] for roping calves. That gives the young heifers the opportunity to [grow] out [and breed back without a calf to nurse]. MH: Do you run your bulls with [the] cows all the time? BJA: No. We put them in when they need to be [there for breeding, about the first of May]. MH: How do you get your calves to market? Do you truck them in to St. George or do you have the buyer go out [to the ranch]? BJA: We had several buyers that knew our cattle. They got to where they didn’t need to go look at them. We [would] just call them and tell them what we had [available]. We used bobtails [two and two-one-half ton trucks] to bring them out for a long time. As the business developed, we ended up with big [semi]-trucks. We had big trucks come from California to take them out. I used to get in the truck with them and take them out. Clayton didn’t want them to get lost [in an area] where they couldn’t turn around. [Laughter] It is a good country to run cattle in. We had lots of challenges with the drought. That will probably always be that way. MH: I suspect it will. What was or is the Atkin brand? BJA: We have had a number through the years. [Laughter] Right now we use a top hat to brand. We used J-T-A, LU, 44 and Flying Z. [Laughter] MH: Do you still use horses to gather [round up] the cattle]? BJA: Yes, we do. We do have a four-wheeler that we use. It saves lots of miles on [the] legs, especially in [that] country [in] the summer. It is more of a challenge to get into [the areas]. As big as the outfit is, 300 square miles, you have to have lots of good horses. [This range is intermingled with federal land permits, state leases, and private land.] MH: [Do] you get [involved with] the horse end of [the ranch]? BJA: I get [involved with] the horses, but not the running horses. [Laughter] MH: Do you have a favorite saddle maker? BJA: If you take good care of your saddles, they last a long time. We have a Gray Wilkins saddle or two. We have some [youngsters who] won saddles in high school and college rodeoing. Once in awhile, we have to invest [in one], but a good saddle lasts almost a lifetime. MH: If it is taken care of. BJA: Yes. MH: Did any of your children ever attend school at the Bundyville School? BJA: No. We never did [actually] live out there. We have always had a home [in St. George]. We [owned] the old [Frank] Childers’s ranch home that was built by the Childers family. When they first went out there, they lived in a cave underground. That would have been a challenge for me. The remains were still there when we bought it. The reason they left was [because] one of their sons shot himself out there. When we [bought] it, we re-did the floors and wallpapered the [walls]. Mrs. [Bertie] Childers would never come back, even after we fixed it up. MH: She would not come back? BJA: Now it has been torn down and the remains burned up. We [work] out of a location [in the] Main Street [Valley]. MH: Yes, you have a place [in] Main Street [Valley]. BJA: Yes. We had an old [place] that had just two rooms. We added on to it in the late 1960s. We had a couple, [C. R. and Linda Barbier, who were] working for us about ten or twelve years ago. We built a new home out there with water and a bathroom. Before that, all we had was the path! [Laughter] MH: Do you remember some of the characters you met out on the [Arizona] Strip? Does anybody stand out in your mind, a particularly good cowboy or character? BJA: We had an inspector [Henry Fergason] [who] was quite a character. He had advanced from horseback to a pickup. There were times when I was out there with babies and little boys. [If] I had a sick boy when he came by to inspect, he would say “Wait another day or two, and if he doesn’t feel better then, ya’ better take him to town. Maybe he is getting the chicken pox or the measles.” He liked his beer and he usually came out with a cold beer, and he would offer [one]. Being [members of] The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints], we weren’t interested. [Laughter] He was a good figure that moved in there. I remember when one of the [boys] had the mumps. “Slim” Waring was headed to town and we stopped the pickup to visit [with him]. All of a sudden, Clayton said something about the mumps and he said, “I’ve never had the mumps” and away he went! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] BJA: He did not want anything to do with the mumps! MH: Did you know [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” and Mary [Waring]? BJA: Yes. Later, [Mary] was [living] down in the Flagstaff [Arizona] area. We stopped to see her there. You probably know [that] she died down in Texas. MH: When was the last time people were permanently living around Bundyville and that area? BJA: We do not go as far south as Bundyville. I can’t tell you for sure; I could guess. The only time that we had anyone live permanently on our ranch was when the couple lived there. I keep in touch with her all the time. Her husband was an old bull rider. You [could] take him to a rodeo and he would double up his fist and [ride] with every one of them. [Laughter] He died this last year and she is [living] with a son in Wyoming. [They were] good people [who] worked for us. MH: Did your boys spend their summers on the [Arizona] Strip on the ranch? BJA: Yes, [we were] out [and] back all the time. MH: Have you seen some improvements on the roads over the years? BJA: There has been. But it is like the Santa Clara [River] floods. There are times when you have a dust bowl to drive through and there are [times when there are] slick spots no matter what. They have improved with the spray [that] they put on [the roads], but it has its drawbacks too. We had a pickup with problems this year. If there is any moisture, it throws it up under the pickup. It shuts off the circulating system under the pickup and we had a $1,500.00 garage bill. MH: That hurts! BJA: We have a steam washer now at our feed-yard to keep [the truck] clean underneath. But that sealant [presents] an interesting [problem]. MH: That is something I had not heard [about]. Was anyone running sheep out there when you were there? BJA: Yes. They had a regular designated trail out on the [Arizona] Strip up to Cedar Mountain [Iron County, Utah]. MH: When [was] the last sheep [to] come off [from] there? BJA: The Atkin sheep came off while Clayton was in the [United States] Navy during World War II. I would guess [that] was six or eight years after I [went] out there. [We were] building lots of fences out there at that time. MH: Was the store at Wolf Hole was gone by the time you [went] out there? BJA: Yes. MH: Did you see any of the wild pigs that were supposed to be out there? BJA: [There were] wild pigs and wild turkeys on Mt. Trumbull. MH: I have been told [that] there are [also] some around Black Rock. BJA: That is where [Atkin] sheep were at one time. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] BJA: I never had much to do because, by the time I was around, there was not any connection to Black Rock. I have a picture [painted by] Tom Featherstone Watson. He was herding sheep up there. Rudger came out [from town] to [Black Rock] with a new bedroll. Tom cut a piece out of that new canvas and painted [a] picture of Black Rock. MH: On the canvas? You still have that? BJA: Yes, I do. Clayton said if you knew our mules, you would know which one was in the picture. [Laughter] MH: They [used] mules as well as horses? BJA: They did evidently with sheep. They have not [used mules] since I have been there. MH: Do you use dogs in your operation? BJA: No. We talked about it. The boys thought about it, but no. MH: Some people do and some do not. BJA: That is right. A well trained dog is fine, but he did not want [to keep] dogs in town. If they were left alone out there, [that] was not good. MH: Did you ever have trouble with predators like coyotes and mountain lions? BJA: Yes. MH: [Inaudible] BJA: Yes. We lost a colt and a mare three years ago out on [the] west side. MH: How long does it take you [to go] from your home in St. George to the ranch? BJA: It depends if we are loaded or whether we leave from [the house] or the feed-yard. [It takes] forty-five minutes to one hour. MH: That is considerably shorter than the first time you went out there! BJA: Definitely! [The road] to the top of the Quail Dugway has been improved enough the last few years and the protective barriers they have [placed] there are a good thing. MH: What was your funniest experience on the [Arizona] Strip? BJA: I do not know if that is a fair question! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] There must be a personal family joke! BJA: I could tell one. [Laughing] When we were out there, Clayton’s folks, especially his mother [Leona (Cox) Atkin], would come if she knew I was going to be there. Grandpa [Rudger Atkin] [would come if he] knew I was cooking a leg of lamb. He was still a sheep [inaudible] to that. They came out one morning with Ralph [Atkin], their youngest son. We were living at the Childers place and could see the truck coming south. All of a sudden, we could not see [the truck but] there was a big cloud of dirt in the air. He had tipped [the truck] over! They had a couple gallons of milk in the front of the pickup. You have never seen such a milky mess! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] No one was hurt? BJA: No one was hurt. It was just a mess and we laughed! [Laughter] Grandpa! MH: [Inaudible] BJA: We had no communication [out there] for years until Brent married. He and his [about] two year old son [Brandon Atkin] did not come home one night. [Nanette, his wife,] called and was fit to be tied. They went out to hunt [for] them at night. They went as far as they could go and turned around and the lights hit on the pickup [that they were in]. They were just fine. They had no problem. They had bedded down in the pickup. There is a communication system now. There is a repeater out here on [Seegmiller] Hill and there is a radio system for us. Sometimes it does not work because lightning will knock it out. You have to be in the right spot to get through with a cell phone. MH: They are spotty. BJA: She demanded [but] I had [learned to] live with it. Finally, I knew there was not anything I could do about it so I [did] not worry. If something came up that they had to stay, they had to stay. MH: Interesting. The history of the [Arizona] Strip can be written about the women who waited for the men and had to accept [life] as it was. BJA: With four sons, it was not my nature to stay at home alone, so I worked right [along] with them a lot of the time when they were out of school. One fall, they were making movies here [in St. George], and there wasn’t [any] help available. Clayton and I would work all day, then come home and get the [boys] situated and [ready] for school. Then we would go back for the next day. We did all the gathering [rounding up] that fall. I enjoyed my family tremendously. MH: Do you think that was a good place for the [boys] to grow up? BJA: You know [it] was! [Laughter] That was a wonderful place. You never had to worry if they would eat what you put on the table. They were hungry! MH: There wasn’t a restaurant down the street! BJA: They learned responsibility early and were good help. We would pay them $1.00 for each of their years of age. At the age of six, they learned they [could get] $6.00 a day if they put in a big day, and they did [that] a lot. You put a young boy on a good horse and [he] can help you move cattle all day. Sometimes we would trade. We had a pickup [out on the range] with us and they would take turns getting in [the truck]. MH: If you start driving a truck at eight [years old] you are growing up fast! BJA: Yes. I guess the scariest time on the [Arizona] Strip for me was when I had a runaway [horse while] on Grandpa Rudger’s big old red horse. Clayton had been riding the horse and [needed to] fix a cattle guard. He got off the horse and said, “Joy, why don’t you come and stay along behind the cattle.” I did not have boots on that day, but I got on [the horse]. He was one you [had] better hold [tightly]. Clayton warned me, “Do not let him get going.” I had to get up with the cattle. [He did get running but] I did not get thrown, but I shook for a whole week after that! [Laughter] MH: Apparently you got him shut down! BJA: Finally I just stood [up in] the stirrups and pulled on his mouth. He was not that bad of a horse. He just liked to run! [Laughter] MH: Are your grandchildren spending time on the ranch? BJA: Yes. MH: [Are] any of them involved in high school rodeos? BJA: You bet! [Laughter] MH: Are they competing with the Bundy group? [Laughter] BJA: Yes, our family grew up with high school rodeos. I helped as [an] adult supervisor for years. Brent’s two oldest children [Brandon and T. J.] are through [high school]. T. J. is competing [on the] college rodeo [circuit] this year. The next two [Kimberli and Conner] [compete in] high school rodeos, and then there are the two youngest ones [Tanner and Whitni who take park in junior rodeos]. Our youngest son, Troy, has a daughter [Dallen] that competes. He has two younger children [Austin and Haley]. One of them will probably be [competing] next year. Brent was the student president of National Collegiate Rodeo. Doyle competed in high school and college rodeo, but he has girls. The girls are some of the toughest competitors [but are not interested in rodeos]. MH: I was going to ask you about the granddaughters. Do they spend time out there? BJA: Yes. Brent [has] one sixteen [year old] daughter [Kimberli] who has asthma and allergy problems, but she is feeding some show steers right now. Yes, they all take part. That is part of [being in] our family, learning to work. MH: Cows [come] first! [Laughter] Now here comes the philosophical question. What is it about the [Arizona] Strip that people who [have] spent time there love it so much? It is apparent there is something special about that place. BJA: It just gets in your blood [when] you live and work out there. How could you be closer to your children and your family? Many times, when we were waiting for the older ones and Clayton to come through with cattle, I would sit down with the [younger children] and help them make [play] corrals out of rocks and sticks. It is the quiet time together. You do not have interruptions. [Not] everybody would enjoy that type of life, but I did. MH: Not everybody gets the chance to see it. BJA: As things have turned out, it is probably a blessing that I was there with the ranching operation after losing a son [Brent] and [my] husband within six or seven months. They were the ranchers. I have been able to go along with the grandchildren’s desire to keep it going. Not that we have made all the right moves, but the grandchildren have learned some lessons. I have felt bad about [some] of them. [Laughter] I think in this day and age, when everything [moves] so fast, it is still a place that you have to move at a cow’s speed. It is a time for children to learn lessons. Right after Brent’s death, we were gathering [rounding up] cattle. Troy took his family out; they all ride. They [had] the younger boy stay with the cattle and they fanned out to bring the cattle in. He dropped his bridle reins. He was just a small [boy]. He got off [the horse] but did not know how he was going to get back on. They have cell phones in their family and that is how they communicate. They did not have them out there at that time. By the time they came back in with more cattle, he had finally figured out how to get up on a big rock and get back up on that horse. MH: He solved the problem himself. BJA: Troy said, “Mom, it has been a while since I have been out here working. But today I realized that he had to think his way through it. He could not say, ‘Dad what am I going to do? Or Mom help me.’” Those are the values I think we see. MH: That is a great answer. Now the next one I [inaudible] about. Given the fact that the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument exists, how would you like to see it managed and administered? BJA: That is a tough one. I think it is because I see the problems of administering with the different entities involved. There is the [National] Park Service, the wilderness, the BLM [Bureau of Land Management and] the ranchers ─ it is a tough problem to solve. Even for the people [who] live [there]. If you are not supposed to do this or that in the wilderness [area] and they do not know they are in [a] wilderness, [it creates a problem]. I had a gentleman call me about the private land out there. A lot of our ponds are on private land. He wanted to set up a business of helicoptering people in to have a wilderness experience. He wanted to land right where there is one of our biggest ponds. That is all we need is a helicopter landing [when] the cattle are coming in to drink! [Laughter] MH: Yes, [that would] scare and scatter them. BJA: I understand people have an interest in [the] wilderness, but to me that would not be the answer. [There would need to be] a different means of transporting [them] into [the area]. The wilderness cuts off a lot of peoples’ [access] to the wilderness [areas]. The Arizona Strip [ranchers along with BLM and mining people] were probably the first area entity that got together to designate what they thought was wilderness by the definition of wilderness. It lasted for awhile but they [the environmental entities] have pushed for a lot more since then. A lot of people are not physically able to go into the wilderness. I suppose [there are reasons] for setting [the wilderness and monument areas] aside, and I do not fight it, but it is a problem. MH: It is a problem. BJA: Administering it is probably a bigger problem! [Laughter] I respect the BLM. They have lots of demands, [many probably] from a national [level]. I remember one [BLM person] saying when this wilderness monument [was set aside], “We are in the process of several projects. It may [cost us] our jobs, but we are going to finish them.” I do not know if that is quotable, but that is what was said. MH: I suspect that is quite quotable. It has been a real pleasure and you have [given] a first class [presentation]. [END OF TAPE]
Maud (Wood) Brown | Oral History
Maud (Wood) Brown was interviewed on February 10, 2006 in Kanab, Kane County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. She related her experiences living on the Arizona Strip.
Maud (Wood) Brown was interviewed on February 10, 2006 in Kanab, Kane County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. She related her experiences living on the Arizona Strip when her husband, [Norris “Doc” Brown, managed] the [Jonathon Deyo “Slim”] Waring Ranch from 1949 to 1955.
MH: How did your husband meet “Slim” Waring? How did he wind up [managing] the ranch for him? MB: His wife [Mary (Osburn) Waring] taught [at the high] school in Fredonia [Arizona]. I don’t know how he met him. We used to see them all the time. When [my husband] quit running cattle with [my brother], Cleo [Wood], “Slim” found out about it and was looking for somebody [to work for him]. We ran a hundred head [of cattle] at Whitmore [Canyon] and moved that [herd] to Parashaunt. MH: [Did] you run “Slim’s” operation for him, too? MB: Yes. MH: “Slim” would have been older in those days. Did he spend a lot of time out there? MB: He and “Aunt” Mary were gone a lot. They did some traveling. In the summer, when the [children] and I were there, they stayed up at Horse Valley most of the time. They didn’t stay down [at Parashaunt]. MH: Describe “Slim” and Mary. What did they look like? MB: My gosh! I have pictures of them if I had known you were coming. [Laughter] MH: I may come back and ask to take a look at those. MB: They were both nice-looking people. “Slim” was from back east and Mary was from down in Arizona. MH: Was “Slim” tall? MB: Yes, he was tall. MH: They say Mary was quite a pretty woman. MB: Yes. She taught home economics [classes] at Fredonia High School [in Arizona]. MH: Is that where “Slim” met her? MB: Yes. I think they stayed at the same motel. I can’t remember the name of [the motel] in Fredonia. [They] rented out rooms to people who worked and lived in [the] area. I think that is where they met. MH: How long had you been married when you [went] out there? MB: We [were] married in 1941. [My husband] was drafted [into the United States Army]. He wasn’t in the military very long because he was drafted in 1945 and [World War II] ended in [September] 1945. He [received a medical discharge and] came home in the spring of 1945. MH: Did you go [to the Arizona Strip] in 1949? MB: We went out there before that. [My husband] went out there before that and helped Cleo. We were there four years, I think, at Whitmore [Canyon] before we moved out to Parashaunt. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MH: How many cows did “Slim” have? MB: I don’t really know how many he ran. MH: [Did he run] more than your husband? MB: Yes, I think so. MH: What breed were most of [the] cattle in those days? [Were they] Herefords or Durhams? MB: I think “Slim’s” [cattle] were not the same breed as ours but I might be mistaken. MH: What was your husband’s brand? MB: I will tell you in a little while! [Laughter] MH: You have to think about that one! MB: I know what it is. It just won’t come [to me]! [Laughter] MH: Did you go to Whitmore and stay before you went to Parashaunt? MB: We went there in about 1946 and stayed there. MH: Did you stay out there in the summers and winters at that time? MB: I did the first year but when our oldest child [Pearl Ann Brown] started school, I had to stay in town [Hurricane, Washington County, Utah]. MH: Where in Whitmore [Canyon] [did] you stay? MB: We had a cabin down in the canyon. They built a one-room cabin. Cleo had sheepherders [who] were there [to] take care of his sheep. They slept in the sheep wagon. MH: Where did you get your water from when you were down there? MB: They piped the water from up on — MH: Was [it] up in Hell Hole [Arizona] where they ran that line? MB: Yes, maybe above Hell Hole. MH: Who put that pipeline in? MB: Cleo [put the pipeline in] and piped it down into Whitmore [Canyon] clear down to the black slide. MH: Would that be about where the road crosses the [Whitmore] Wash? MB: The black slide, I think, is down almost where the fence line is between Cleo and Bundy’s [property]. MH: [Would] that [be] farther down the road? MB: Yes, it is farther down. The pipeline goes clear down there. MH: I didn’t know it went that far. MB: There are some Indian caves there. MH: Which side of the canyon are the Indian caves on? MB: They face north. They would be on the south [side]. MH: I wonder if our archaeologist knows about those. [Laughter] MB: I imagine! [Laughter] MH: I’ll have to ask him. Did you ever get out on the range much? Did you get down around Frog Spring and over that way at all? MB: No, not much. I spent most of my time at the house. When we were in Whitmore [Canyon], our oldest girl [Pearl Ann] used to ride with her dad quite a bit. MH: How many horses did you have down there? MB: [We had] two or three [horses]. [Laughter] MH: Enough to get around? MB: Yes. MH: [Did] you drive a truck to get down there? MB: Yes. MH: Do you remember much about the old truck? MB: I can’t remember what year it was. It was a secondhand truck. [“Doc”] traded the car he had for [the] truck. Cleo had [the] road built from up on the hill [to] where you start to drop down into Whitmore [Canyon]. MH: That is steep going down in there. MB: A [man] from Virgin [Washington County, Utah], I know his name but it will take me awhile to remember it, went out so we could drive down that hill. We used to have to go way around. I couldn’t find [the] way anymore. It has been too many years. MH: When you say way around, did you go out to Paws Pocket and over towards Tuweep? MB: No. It is this other way. When we go down into Whitmore [Canyon], we go on the west side of Bundyville down around and drop down into Whitmore [Canyon]. MH: [Would this be] by the schoolhouse and out? MB: Yes. I think after we passed the schoolhouse and came to Bundyville, we would go on the west side of Bundyville, and then drop down into Whitmore [Canyon]. MH: Was that a worse [road? MB: It is a longer way around. MH: [Did] you have little children while you were down there? MB: Yes. MH: What did you do to keep them occupied? MB: They just played! [Laughter] MH: Did you have to cook for the sheep men and all the rest of them? MB: No. When they would come to the house to fill their water tanks I would usually fix them something to eat. They would eat with us. They cooked their own meals most of the time. MH: Did you try [to] grow a garden down there? MB: We did have a garden down there. MH: You did? MB: Yes, we did. MH: What [did] you grow? MB: [We grew] lettuce and carrots. Gosh, I can’t remember. I guess we had [some] corn. MH: Your [elevation was] low down there, [so] I guess your growing season was good. MB: We had water. The garden was down close to the corral and the water was piped down to the corral and on past the corral down to the black slide. MH: Was the garden your responsibility? MB: No. MH: Who [took care of the garden]? MB: [My husband] did. [Laughter] MH: You made your husband do it? MB: I didn’t make him do anything! [Laughter] He planted it and took care of it. MH: Did you ever go to Bundyville to any of the dances or church [meetings]? MB: No. We had a friend up there, [Elmo Aaron] “Frosty” Bundy. MH: He was an old cowboy. MB: He was a good friend. One time, when our third child [Elaine Brown] was [young], we [went] to Hurricane. I had been to the grocery store and [purchased] a bunch of supplies. When we got [back] to Whitmore I discovered that “Doc” hadn’t loaded the case of milk I had bought. So I didn’t have any milk to feed the baby. MH: Would this have been canned milk? MB: [It] was canned milk. He tied the cow up, milked her and didn’t have very good luck. She wouldn’t give her milk because, I guess, she had never been tied up before. [Laughter] We finally ended up driving back up to Bundyville and borrowing some canned milk from “Frosty” Bundy. [Laughter] MH: You had a hungry baby! MB: Yes, we did! [“Doc”] had a mare that had a colt. He milked some milk from her but [the baby] wouldn’t drink that either. [Laughter] MH: She wouldn’t drink horse milk! How many cows did you have down in Whitmore [Canyon]? MB: [We had] a hundred head [of cattle]. MH: Did you put the bulls in and have them calve all [at] the same time of the year or did you let the bulls run with the cows? MB: I’m not sure. I don’t really know. I think they kept the bulls out. MH: When it was time to take your calves out, how did you get them out? Did you trail them out? MB: No, we trucked them [out]. I’m trying to think what else to tell you. MH: Right now would be a good time to tell me how “Doc” got his nickname. MB: [His] father and mother [James Arthur and Pearl Edna (Pugh) Brown] named him “Doc.” The reason is [that] when he was born they had five daughters. The oldest child was a boy [and] then they had five girls. When “Doc” was born, his father said to his mother, “What are we going to name a boy?” The doctor, who was Dr. [Urban Hartman] Norris, said, “Name him after me.” So they did. They named him Norris and called him “Doc.” MH: Now for the record, Norris Brown’s nickname was “Doc.” He got it from the doctor who delivered him. MB: That is right. MH: They called him Norris and everybody in town [Kanab] knew Norris as “Doc” so they called Norris Brown, “Doc.” MB: He was the first [boy] to be named Norris but [later] there were some other boys named Norris and they called [all of them] “Doc.” Do you want me to tell you how come we had this doctor from San Francisco [California]? MH: How did you get a doctor from San Francisco [to] Kanab? MB: Dr. Norris lost everything he owned in the [April 18, 1906] San Francisco earthquake. He was on his way to Arizona and came through Kanab and camped down on the Utah-Arizona border. While he was camped there, [he was] walking around [and] found a $20.00 gold piece. He found out Kanab didn’t have a doctor and thought maybe this would be a good place to stay. He checked into it and stayed here for a number of years. I don’t know just how long. He was [the] doctor [here] for a long time. [When] he retired, [he] moved back to California. During [World] War [II], when Dr. Aiken was drafted and Kanab didn’t have a doctor, [Dr. Norris] came back out here and stayed until Dr. Aiken came home from [military] service. MH: That is a great story! MB: I thought it was quite interesting. He was a [very] nice man. MH: You are down in Whitmore Wash and, I guess, your husband and his partner decided to sell out. MB: Yes. Clarence Lamoreaux’s son also had some cows down there. We took our hundred head of cows and drove them to Parashaunt. [We] were out there for five years. MH: Where did you live when you were at Parashaunt? MB: [There was a] house. The kitchen part was where we ate. I took my sewing machine and did a lot of sewing while I was there. [There were] two or three cabins in the backyard. “Slim” and Mary had one and we had one. Our two girls [Pearl Ann and Marilyn] stayed in “Slim” and Mary’s [cabin when they] stayed at Horse Valley [during] the summer. “Slim” and Mary stayed there [at Parashaunt] in the winter. MH: How did “Slim” and Mary get out in the winter? They didn’t [get out], did they? MB: They had a place in [the] St. George [Washington County, Utah] area where they would spend a lot of time. MH: Did they stay out on the Parashaunt in the winter? MB: I think they used to but in their later years, after she retired, I think they spent quite a bit of time in the St. George area. MH: There is one cabin left on the Waring ranch now. But you said there were two or three around the pond that is out there. MB: Yes, they were north of that. [Do] you mean the pond by the house? MH: Yes. MB: [The cabins] were north [of that]. When we lived there, “Slim” and Mary [had] not built the new house. They just had one cabin that was close to the pond and [used] that [for] the kitchen. MH: Is that the [cabin] with the big rock fireplace in it? MB: It didn’t have a fireplace when we lived there. It had a cook stove, table and chairs, a storage cupboard and kitchen cupboards. That was about all. MH: Were there some CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] buildings around there at that time? MB: No, not that I know of. When were the CCC boys there? MH: It would have been before you people were there. [It would have been] back in the 1930s. MB: I don’t know anything about the CCC. MH: What about the saw mill? Was that [operating] over at Green Spring? MB: [Was that] the one that Bud Dane had? MH: Yes. MB: Yes, it was there. Bud and Edith [Dane] were friends of ours. MH: Was the saw mill running at that time? MB: Yes. MH: Were they cutting logs and hauling lumber? MB: Yes. MH: They had to come right by your [place] when they were hauling the lumber out. MB: Yes, they did. MH: That is a rough road. How did those trucks get in and out? MB: I don’t know, but they did! [Laughter] MH: Did you ever see any Indians, Native Americans, while you were out there? MB: No. MH: Were they gone by the time you were there? MB: Yes, they were gone. We saw some places [where they had been]. We went over in what we call [the] Ivanpatch [Spring] area and saw where Jack Weston was buried. MH: That was quite the story. Tell the story as you heard it. George [Weston] was his brother. Was that the story? MB: Yes. He was a doctor from California. I don’t know what he was doing out there. MH: Jack had a rather unsavory reputation. MB: Yes. He was married to a woman that lived kitty-corner over here. MH: [She had] lived in Kanab? MB: [She was] a Johnson girl. They had one son [and then] they [were] divorced. MH: Was [it] the Johnson girl [who] was with him when he died? MB: No, it was a woman from Parowan [Iron County, Utah]. MH: Tell the story as you heard it. MB: They were out [in] Lund [Iron County, Utah] or somewhere. I can’t remember. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MB: It was in the summer and the girls were playing outside. They had a wagon and put the baby in the wagon. The baby was about a year old. She could walk but she wasn’t very old. They went down to the corrals there and there was a big round well. I think it was a spring. They must have used it for water storage. It was big around and it was rocked up on the inside. The [children] went down to [the well]. Soon they came up the road a-hurrying [and] all upset. [They] told us there were a lot of rattlesnakes there. We got in the pickup, took the [children] and went back down there. There were rattlesnakes coming out of this old dry well behind these rocks and between the rocks. There were rattlesnakes all over! [Laughter] The [children] were scared to death. I guess there are a lot of snakes on the Arizona Strip. MH: Thank you. [END OF TAPE]
Eddie M. Bundy | Oral History
Eddie M. Bundy was interviewed on July 24, 2017, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Julianne Renner, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his life experiences. Mark Draper also participated.
EDDIE M. BUNDY ________________________________________________________________________ Eddie M. Bundy was interviewed on July 24, 2017 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Julianne Renner, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his life experiences. Mark Draper also participated.
JR: Question one, when and where were you born? EB: I was born December 3, 1953 in Mt. Trumbull, Arizona in a three-room house. I was delivered by my dad [or] my grandmother, Chloe (Geneva (Van Leuven) Bundy]. I am not sure which. I was the seventeenth child of Chester and Genavieve Bundy. We had large families out there. [Children of Chester “Chet” Marion and Genavieve “Jennie” (Bundy) Bundy, Laveive Bundy, Chester LaMar Bundy, Owen Lavoyd Bundy, Arlene Bundy, Wayne J. Bundy, Ila May (Bundy) Hughes Blake, Kay Argwen Bundy, Tine C. Bundy, Nina Vee (Bundy) Hughes, Lynna Rue (Bundy) Schafer, Ramona Bundy, Weeta Bundy, Bonnie B. (Bundy) McAlister, Clo Ella (Bundy) Andrus, Jo Etta (Bundy) Wittwer, Mark E. Bundy and Eddie M. Bundy.] JR: You are the seventeenth child? EB: Yes. JR: How many siblings total did you have? EB: I am the seventeenth. JR: You are the youngest? EB: I am the youngest. JR: There must be a lot of stories having seventeen [children] out on the Arizona Strip. EB: There are. I wish I could remember or tell you all of them. You have to remember that in fact, I am the youngest and [the] oldest [living] brother, [Owen], who was born in 1929. He is still alive and you have to remember that with that many [children] over that span of years I only [lived] the last half of that family. My oldest brother is old enough to be my dad. I have done a lot of things with my older brothers because they were coming out [to the ranch to] see the rest of the family, working and doing jobs. [Inaudible] JR: At what age did you start ranching or working on your family’s ranch? EB: I started when I was [very] young because that was all we had, [the] ranch. My dad just had cows. My first memories of life are [living] in a sheep wagon down in Parashant Canyon [on the Arizona Strip]. We ran our cows down there in the wintertime. At the time, there was no road in there. My dad had taken the sheep wagon apart piece by piece and let it down on some [very] steep ledges down there. I could show you where he did it. It would amaze you. He let that sheep wagon down there piece by piece and put it back [together]. [This is] when I first remember anything that was our home because he would go down there and take care of the cows. JR: Would you tell more about your family? Who did you spend the most time with? What did you do for fun? [Tube, swim, rode horses.] What did you do on a daily basis? [Milk cows, bring wood in and gather eggs.] EB: That is where I first remember living ─ taking care of the cows. As time went on, we grew up and went to school. My whole life has been around those cows. Today I still have a little bunch of cows and go to this very same canyon every winter to take care of them. I hope to do it for awhile yet. JR: Do you still go to Parashant Canyon where your dad went? EB: Yes. MD: You don’t take apart the wagon piece by piece and take it down there anymore? [Laughter] JR: [Laughter] EB: No. [Laughter] In fact, it’s amazing. He set that wagon up on some posts there and just over the fifty years it has disintegrated. It just amazes you how things go back to nothing. You can hardly find even a trace of it now. A lot of our family fun, playing with my siblings, [was] down there in the rocks and chasing around. Up home [at Mt. Trumbull] where we lived, most of my memories are chasing the cows up the mountain with my dad and playing on the horses with my siblings. [Inaudible] We didn’t have [many] horses, so we did a lot of [activities] on foot. However, down in Parashant Canyon, in the 1940s, there were a lot of burros that lived in the canyon. They would come up there on us. My dad caught one of them and brought it home for us to ride. I was pretty young then. So my sister, Bonnie [Bee Bundy], took over that burro. She rode him all the time so we had a lot of fun doing that. When I was young my dad found another one ledged up down there on what we called the island and he brought it home. It was just a little one. We fed him on a bottle and took care of him. So that is what we rode. We would ride these [burros] chasing the cows. That was a challenge because we just rode them bareback. You couldn’t keep a saddle on them. To turn them you would just slap them upside the head whatever direction you wanted to go. If a jack rabbit jumped out, look out! You were going to be on the ground. [Laughter] [Inaudible] JR: [Laughter] MD: [Laughter] I bet! EB: We chased the burros trying to get a ride. JR: I heard you mention something called the island. Is that in Parashant Canyon as well? EB: Yes. It’s a place we call the island. It is surrounded by the Parashant Wash which was a [very] steep gully ─ [and between] the Andrus Wash and the Colorado River. There is another little gully that kind of separates it from my cousins, Orvel [Allen] Bundy’s permit. We called it the island because we could take cows up there and [they] could [not] get off of there. There was a little spring up there that would water just a few cows. My dad would take a few cattle up there and keep them while he was there. It was a real job to get there. Some of those burros would come up from the [Colorado] River and get water in there too. It is probably where he found this one little [burro]. That was under our permit that we had there. I am not sure when this was. It was in my time that the Grand Canyon [National Park] expansion [occurred and] they took that portion away from us because it was close to the [Colorado] River. It was [very] hard for us to get to anyway. My dad did build a cement pocket over there. When I talk about pockets, they are a ravine in the natural rock. In the end of [the ravine] my dad would build a cement dam so when it rained it would collect the water there. [Inaudible] JR: Wow! EB: It is a pretty meager way to get water, but at least it was water. JR: Yes, water is hard to come by. That is very interesting. You said you were born at Mt. Trumbull. How long did you live in the Mt. Trumbull area? EB: [From 1953 to 1967. After 1967, myself and two siblings went to school in St. George where we rented a house. We drove a Buick back and forth from St. George to the ranch on the weekends for church.] We still [have a house out there]. In 1959 or 1960 my dad built a new home. It is close to our old one where we were all born. Sixteen of the seventeen siblings were born in the old house. It still sits there today. One of us was born in St. George because that winter there were not enough [children] in school for Mojave County [Arizona] to provide a teacher. So my mom had to come to town with the [children] she had then for them to go to school in here. The rest of the time we went [to school at Mt. Trumbull]. I still go out there and back today. JR: That is cool! How has your family influenced your way of life now? EB: Greatly. We lived out there. There were no doctors. There were no grocery stores. There was no running water, just what [rain water] we collected off the barn in a tank. We lived a pretty simple life out there. I am glad today that I grew up there because I grew up away from television. We didn’t [have] a TV and we didn’t have the influence of the bad [programs] that the [children] are faced with today. We [were very] close to our brothers and sisters [and] helping each other out. We were religious people. We were of The [Church of Jesus Christ of] Latter-day Saint faith. We had a schoolhouse there that was about a half mile from our house. It was actually a church house. The church built it, but we went to school in the same building. We spent a lot of time and effort in building our faith [by] praying for rain because that was [what we needed to keep living] If you don’t have water you don’t have anything whether it is cows or humans or [anything]. So we depended greatly on rain from heaven to make it through the hot summers and [cold] winters. That faith and belief that if we helped one another we would be blessed was a great influence in my life. JR: You mentioned that the way you grew up you were close to your siblings. Do you have one or two siblings that you are [very] close to? Do you have any stories about them? EB: I have a couple of them I think I am pretty close to. One of them is my older brother, Owen [Lavoyd] Bundy. He was old enough to be my dad so as I was growing up he kind of took me under his wing a little bit. I spent a lot of time with him. When I was young and growing up out there he was working out [at] Page, Arizona [at] the Glen Canyon Dam. I remember going out there to visit him when the dam was first being built. There was a rope walkway across the Grand Canyon [National Park] where they were building that dam. I remember walking across that and [it] was swaying. It scared me to death. They would let a motorcycle ride across it. When you were walking and a motorcycle came it would really rock! We would go out to see him there so I kind of got to know who he was. I loved to fly. [Owen had] an airplane and would come out to the ranch and see us. I became [very] close to him that way. When I was fourteen [years old] we came to St. George and I started taking flying lessons. My dad loved to fly too. So he told me when we came to town, to school, that he would pay for my flying lessons if I would learn to fly. My older brother, Owen [Lavoyd Bundy], had an airplane at the time, he and two other [fellows], and they rented it to me so I could learn how to fly. One time we had a mustang horse that he [Owen] caught somewhere. He brought it out to our ranch so he could break it. It ran there for quite awhile at our place. One day he and another brother [Kay] decided they needed to come catch it and break it because we just had it there and nothing was happening with it. It was pretty wild so my brother [Owen] decided he would fly out there. That is how they used to catch [mustangs] in the early days. They would fly an airplane around until [the mustangs were] tired and then they could go rope them. My other brother [Kay]] was supposed to rope him. My other brother [Mack] and I went in the pickup to haul the horse out there after he ran it down. We went out ahead of him and waited and waited. He never did come. We just knew something was wrong. We started back and on the way back to the house we met my sister [Jo Etta] in a [1953 Buick] coming out to get us. My brother, the driver [Kay], knew that Owen must have wrecked his airplane. He just knew that. So he hardly even stopped long enough for her to tell us what went on. He just headed on home. Sure enough, when he took off that day to come out and chase this horse down, he just barely got off the ground [when] the throttle cable on his airplane slipped, so he lost power. It just went to idle instead of giving it the throttle. It made a turn right off the end of the runway and just wrecked right there. That put an end to that [activity]. We had some cousins [Orvel and Sally Bundy who] had a station wagon. They stuck him in it and hauled him to St. George. He was awhile recuperating from that because it broke his back and kind of banged him up pretty bad. When I was first born I was [very] sickly. This brother [Owen] was kind of there to help me a lot. I was born with cystic fibrosis and they just about lost me. Out of seventeen [children] my mother lost six of them, [but] not all at once. [The six children who died were: Laveive, Arlene, Wayne J., Tine C., Ramona and Weeta Bundy.] They were intermittent throughout all of us. I knew that I had problems. I didn’t know why until I was married and [started] going to see doctors. I found out that it was really cystic fibrosis that I had. [Inaudible] I had a sister [Cleona] that I am [very] close to also; probably because I was just a baby when she was ten or twelve [years old]. She is only about eight or nine years older than I am. She always took care of me and treated me like her baby. [Laughter] JR: [Laughter] EB: I am still [very] close to her. I am close to all of them. They are just [very] special. Do you have more questions? JR: You mentioned you had cystic fibrosis when you were born. How did that affect your life? Even [for] people who have cystic fibrosis [and] who live in the city near doctors, it is still difficult to deal with. Do you feel it affected you a lot growing up? EB: Yes. It is probably a good thing I didn’t know what I had and how serious that cystic fibrosis can be. I have determined, this is my own feeling and not from a doctor, that that is probably what five of the six [siblings] died from. My mother told me they just died from about two months to two years old. My mother said they died from pneumonia. It acts like pneumonia. Cystic fibrosis bothers your breathing and your lungs. That is probably one of the greatest testaments I have about my religion ─ the fact that why am I still alive? I am sixty-two years old now. You probably could go and search the country a long [time] before you found another person [who has] lived with that [illness that] long. When I was in high school I was on the wrestling team [and] it was very difficult for me. I worked [very] hard to be able to wrestle and do what the other [students] did because I got tired [very] fast. When I was sixteen [years old] my tonsils [became] infected and I had to have them out. I went to Salt Lake [City, Salt Lake County, Utah] to have them out. I [was able] to see Dr. [Vegee] in Salt Lake [City] who saw me when I was first born. He finally told my parents to take me home because he knew what cystic fibrosis did. He said, “Take him home. You can do more for him than we can.” So when I went back there at [age] sixteen and saw him, he couldn’t believe it. Not to mention the fact that I was on the wrestling team. I just had to work hard and struggle with that. I did [very] well doing that and riding horses. I am just lucky. JR: What was the best part of growing up on the Arizona Strip? EB: I think the best part of being there is the wide open country. I was born there so I guess that is why I like it. I love to just be out there in the canyons, on the mountains, just [the] wide open country, hear the coyotes, see the sunset and [sun] rise and a big thunderstorm come from a far distance and rain on you. Just being there by yourself. There is something about that to be out there and say, “Wow, I am here and there is nobody else that I can see.” You can really feel life out there and see the stars. We have done a lot of sleeping outside when we were down in the canyons, looking up and seeing the stars at night and dreaming about how many other people there must be somewhere. [Laughter] JR: Yes, the interpretive team talks about how isolated the area is and how unique that is because there are not many places left like that where you cannot see someone for days. MD: There is nothing in between you and what is there. EB: That is right. When I was a little [fellow] we would sleep outside and look up at the stars at night. You wouldn’t see very many airplanes flying around at night then. But if you looked and watched really hard, every once in awhile you would see a light, just about the size of a star, maybe a little smaller, going across the sky. That was when they first started putting satellites up. We used to think it was great seeing one of them. [Laughter] JR: [Laughter] MD: [Laughter] JR: I still think it is cool to see a satellite. What were some of the hardest things you experienced growing up? EB: One of the hardest things to me was when my parents would come to St. George and leave us [youngsters] there. They would only come to town maybe once a month for groceries. [Inaudible] I have two nephews and a niece that are older than I am. [Inaudible] They would leave us there most of the time. Being the youngest, I hated to see them go to town. They would come and stay overnight, but it just didn’t seem right to me. That was a real struggle when I was younger. As I [became] older, the hard times were going to the Colorado River down to Whitmore Wash somewhere, in the 1950s. Late in 1950 my dad got in touch with a lady by the name of Georgia White [from Los Angeles, California]. JR: Yes. EB: She ran [river] rafts down the Colorado River. She would have to carry all of her groceries from Lees Ferry [Arizona] on this boat [for] the people that she took through clear through to Lake Mead [Nevada]. She [had] this idea that if she could get “Chet” Bundy, my dad, to pack her some groceries [to] Whitmore then she wouldn’t have to carry so much all the way through. We started carrying groceries down there to her. We would drive from our house down to the top of the [Colorado] River. It is about twenty-eight miles from our house. Then the trail might have been a quarter to a half mile down to the river. We would put the food [and supplies] in cans and in a rubber bag so they wouldn’t get wet. We would put two bags in an alfog on each side of the horse and one on top. So we had five of these bags. It was a pretty big load especially if they were all canned goods inside. We would put them on there and usually [made] a couple of trips to get them into her. It was in the summertime when she was doing [this]. [The weather] was like St. George or worse. MD: It was an oven down there. EB: It was really hot. We would lead the horses down with the groceries on them. It was just so hot. In fact, I had a heat stroke there one time because of my conditions. It was so bad that halfway back up that trail I could not make it. I just could not make it. I think I was about sixteen years old this time. My dad carried me halfway out of there on his back and he was sixty [years old]. He was my age [now]. That was a [very] hard time for me. The hard times were [that, and], moving our cows and our burros. The burros didn’t cooperate with us very well. How do I explain what my dad was like? He was an awesome man. We thought he was kind of hard on us, but today I realize what he was trying to do. He was trying to make men out of us. He would put us on these burros, me and my older brother [Mark], and would have us chase those cows for five miles. He would get in the truck and leave us. He would go ahead [of] where we were going and wait for us because he would be fixing a fence or something. At the time I thought: why in the world did he do that? I know to this day it was just that those hard times made it so I could move those cows. The best things don’t go right. Probably one of the worst times we had was about a month ago [when] we moved them [the cows] up on Mt. Trumbull. JR: Really? EB: The cows wouldn’t go for some reason or another. It was just unreal. Those were the hard times we had and getting stuck in the mud. My dad loved whenever it rained. We would go check the ponds and invariably we would get stuck in the mud somewhere. JR: [Laughter] EB: We would have to shovel ourselves out. Down in Parashant Canyon or [Mule] Canyon, we called it, where we had our cows, there is a place down there called Copper Mountain Mine. A [fellow] by the name of Bill Colvy used to mine that place down there. I don’t have a lot of information about my dad and why he started this little mine [in Mule Canyon]. There is [a] place down there where we had a little mine and he had a [small] Case tractor and a big air compressor. We would go down there and he would jack hammer holes in the rocks. He would put dynamite in there. I remember all of us [youngsters] hiding under a cave while he set the dynamite off. Then we would go over there, take the rocks that he had blasted up. We had a wheelbarrow and we would go through [the rocks]. He was looking for copper. The ground down there has copper in it. He had this little machine he would stick on there so he could tell if it was good copper or bad copper. We would sift through, stick it on there and would haul it out of that canyon in this little International truck we had. We worked hard doing that. It must have paid him a little bit to go along with his running cows because we did that for quite awhile until he got to where, I guess, it didn’t work anymore or didn’t pay to haul it out of there. That is another job I remember was quite an experience. JR: What was it like to raise a family on the [Arizona] Strip? EB: I think it must have been quite a chore. Yet, when I stop and think about it, my mother could never have raised that kind of family here in St. George. Out there she could stick us outside to go play and not have to worry about us running out in the street [or] running off with a neighbor somewhere getting into trouble. We just [went] outside and make our own [activities]. We would go out in the trees and take branches to make little huts in the cedar trees and play [house]. My older brother [Mark Bundy] and I were the last two boys and the last two [children] in the family. There were seven girls between them and the next brother [Kay Argwen Bundy]. JR: Wow! [Laughter] MD: [Laughter] EB: We were kind of raised around a bunch of girls so we played house a lot. They also taught us how to milk a cow because we always had a milk cow to supplement our groceries. I think they probably wished a lot of times that they could do more for us, but at the same time we didn’t know any different. We were tickled to death. We were happy with life. I don’t remember any wishing: why are we living out here or anything like that. Our favorite thing was once a year we would get to look in the Sears, Roebuck Catalogue and get a pair of shoes. Are you old enough to remember that? She would order us a pair of shoes every year before school started. My sisters were all older at our house. We just had a kitchen, a dining room, a small living room and a bedroom [for] my parents. Then we had a building outside. It was called the wash house where we had some washing machines, gas powered ones. That is where we washed [our clothes]. There were about six of us there at one time, so there wasn’t room for everybody to sleep in the house. [Jo Etta, Clo Ella and Bonnie] slept outside in this open building. It just had screens around it and a roof on it. They would sleep out there when it was cold and the snow would blow in that screen on top of the beds. They remember a lot of cold nights there. We didn’t know any different, so it was okay. They all talk about it today. It is just memories, good memories, most of them. JR: That is cool! When you were playing outside did you ever run into any rattlesnakes or any formidable creatures on the [Arizona] Strip? EB: Oh yes! I hate rattlesnakes today. We were always running into the damn things and always told to be aware of them. After we built our new home I remember going in there [to] get a pair of socks from a drawer one day. The drawer was maybe a couple of feet off the floor. I pulled that drawer out and a big old bull snake came right out of that drawer. [Laughter] We were living there! I don’t know how this thing could slither in there and get in that drawer. I am sure as [children] when we went outside we would leave the door open. So that is how he got in there. As far as anything else that really scared us, I don’t remember really being scared, [other than] when we would go somewhere, a lot of [youngsters] get this way, when we would go back and forth to different parts of our ranch to take care of the cows after dark, there was always a gate you would have to shut. So when it was dark the person getting out and shutting the gate would hurry and run to the truck. You would think something was going to get you. It is crazy what goes through your mind. [Laughter] JR: [Laughter] Yes. Did you ever run into any mountain lions out there? EB: No, I never saw a mountain lion until I was grown. I still to this day have only seen four of them in the wild. When we were younger, we didn’t even see tracks or anything because we had a [United States] Government trapper out there. The first lion I ever saw was one he caught in a trap. I don’t know how he did it. He tied it in the back of his pickup [inaudible] and brought it by to show us. That is the first one I have ever seen. [Inaudible] Once they quit [trapping] there are lions out there all over the place. You see tracks all the time. You don’t see them in the daytime. JR: Why do you feel that the Arizona Strip land is important? EB: It is [very] important to me because it is my home for one thing. I was born and raised there. We still have our place there. There is something about the Arizona Strip that is different. I might be biased because it is my home, but still, I think it is different than anywhere you go. I run into people all the time [who] just love to go out there. They come home and do whatever and they go back. Down in Parashant Canyon I run into people all the time who go down there year after year because they just enjoy it. I think one of the reasons is because it is just different. There are no highways. There are no cities. There is nothing like that where it gets more populated. I can’t explain it. It is a different place. It is unique because it is cut off by the Grand Canyon [National Park]. Nobody on the other side can come this way. We cannot go any further than where we are. JR: How would you describe the legacy that the families have left? [What do] you want to pass on to your children and your grandchildren? EB: I am [very] high on that. I have two boys [Watson and Waylon]] and one daughter [Kayla]. I hope that they continue our family legacy and I think they will. I have threatened them, more than once, that the place is not for sale. It is a place to go with your family, get out of town, remember who you are and who created this earth for us to enjoy. You come. You see it. You leave it and you leave it like you saw it when you [came] there. I think [we] need to keep that as long as we possibly can. There have been a lot of issues about roads out there and wanting to lock this all up for future generations. That is fine, but there needs to be a way that people can go see it. It is hard to say how this is a place people need to see, but if it were more accessible you would have so many people there that I think you would lose the culture that is there. And yet, I enjoy seeing people going there [to] see it, feel what is there and leave it like it was. Unfortunately in this day and age, everyone doesn’t see it that way especially [we who] grew up there and [are] still living there. JR: I think it is definitely important to deal with how to protect the area, but how to also help people appreciate how important it is. It is a fine line, a balance. EB: It is like we go down there in the canyon and see where the Indians have been down there all over. They have left signs and [artifacts]. It is [very] neat to look at. You hear about here in Utah and places where people vandalize that kind of [history]. You hardly want to let them go see it. That is [what] grabs your attention too when you are down there and you see some Indian writings on the wall. You think back how long ago they were there and what in the world kind of conditions did they live in while they were there. I have a tendency to believe that they were happy doing whatever they were doing. You just make happiness out of wherever you [are], whatever you are doing. JR: Do you feel like your connection to the land is more emotional or spiritual than just a place that you have lived? EB: Oh yes. My brother [Mark], a cousin [Newmann] and I were the last three to graduate from the eighth grade there in the schoolhouse. [After] we graduated we had to come to St. George to school. We have been here back and forth all of our life, but it is still home. I have a nice home here and my family was raised here. [END OF RECORDING ONE.] EB: [Inaudible] I lived with my grandmother [Chloe Bundy] for a little while so that we could go to school. We would always go back to the ranch for the weekend. [When] I [came] here I got [involved with] the ground school at Dixie College, took the [classes] there [and] was able to get my pilot’s license. I started flying by myself [and] soloed when I was fifteen years old. You cannot get a driver’s license until you are sixteen [years old], but I could fly that airplane by myself when I was fifteen. JR: Wow! [Laughter] EB: My instructor, Jerry Fackrell, would come to my house, pick me up, take me to the airport, take me around and check me out so I could solo by myself. I could never figure that out — how in the world I couldn’t drive a car when I could fly this airplane. [Laughter] MD: [Laughter] I bet that frustrated you. EB: I finally got that down. I am really good at hands on [activities]. Bookwork I am not very good at. I had a [very] hard time passing the test on [that]. I finally passed it before I went on my mission for The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. When I came back I was working at Grand Gulch Mine. One of my cousins [Renae Aldridge] had married a gentleman [Sean Legere] and he had a Cessna 170 airplane. He was going to sell it so we talked to dad and we finally bought that plane. We had some problems with the motor after a few years, but then I bought a new motor to put on it. My main interest in flying was [that] it is a long way from here to Parashant Canyon to check water and see if your cows are alright. Then I just loved to fly over the land. That is another connection that I have that is unique and feel privileged to have done over a lot of people. I could scoot across the [Arizona] Strip and see a lot. I am sure I have probably done a lot of looking around [at areas] illegally because of the air laws there are today. I could never do today what I did back then. I worked down there at Grand Gulch Mine for a little while for this [man]. Down in Parashant Canyon there is a place called Dan Sill Canyon. There is an old road up there and a stream right at the edge of a sheer rock wall. That is where we got water for our cows. Roland Esplin used to have that. He let us use some water there for our cows. The mining company went in there and built an 18,000 gallon corrugated tank to store water from that spring so they could drill up on the side of the mountain there. My cousin, Danny Bundy, and I would go down there. We thought we were going to be big trappers and trap a fox or two or coyote down in there. It was away from everything. I went down there and cut off the bushes so when I landed [on] this road I wouldn’t hit the wings. We actually went down there, flew in there and landed there. The first time we landed there, I think, one of my cousins, Jason Bundy and his friend, Heber Jessop hired out from Stratton Brothers over there in Hurricane [Washington County, Utah] to take a cement mixer down there and put a bottom in this tank. We flew around there a time or two and I could see what was going on. [Inaudible] I came around, [to land] there and went right up close to this tank. When I got up there we saw these two [fellows] hands come up over the top of that tank. [Laughter] JR: [Laughter] EB: They could not believe that we landed. They just knew when the motor shut off that we had wrecked. They were just trying to see what happened. They were surprised to see us there. There is a little air strip right there at the Copper Mountain Mine and I used to land there. For about thirty years I would fly down, land there, get on a motorcycle and check on the cows. I shouldn’t tell this, but it is history now. [Laughter] JR: [Laughter] MD: Exactly! [Laughter] EB: One day a [United States] Park Service airplane came flying overhead and came around there looking at my airplane [very] closely. I was on a motorcycle about two or three miles away checking on some cows. I watched him and watched him and I thought: oh man, I am in trouble. Sure enough by the time I got [back] to St. George I had a message on my phone. They had traced [the] number [on my airplane] back to who it was [the owner], got a hold of me and told me I shouldn’t be landing there anymore. It was all downhill from there. [Laughter] JR: I think [this] is [very] interesting. I don’t think you hear much about ranchers and their airplanes. EB: I was pretty fortunate to be able to do that. I loved it. I probably enjoyed that more than I did riding on the back of a saddle horse. [Inaudible] Flying out over there you can see deer, jack rabbits, coyotes [and] antelope. When the day came that I had to quit flying that was a pretty tough day for me not to be able to do that anymore. MD: When was that? EB: It has probably been a good ten or twelve years since I was able to do that. I always wondered how lucky I could be to start flying so young. I am sure glad I did and [had] the time that I did. One of my cousins [Danny Bundy] said, “If you want a real good airplane ride you just need to go fly with [Eddie].” I didn’t like flying way high. I liked to get downright close to the ground and see what was going on. I tried that one time on the Colorado River. Boy that was quite an experience! I was crazy doing it because right after that is when one of the BLM [Bureau of Land Management] managers here in St. George was Bill Lamb. You probably don’t know that name. [He] was manager of the BLM here and they rented a helicopter down [on] the Colorado River below Whitmore [Wash]. I can’t remember if they were looking at the burro situation or just the river in general. Anyway, they were [very] close to the river. There is a cable down there that goes across the river where they measured water flow. That helicopter pilot hit that cable. They didn’t know it was there. He hit that cable and wrecked right in the [Colorado] River. They were close to the side and there were three of them in there, Bill Lamb, the pilot and another [fellow]. Bill Lamb was able to get out of there. He got out and was sitting on the helicopter and the other [fellows] were coming out. He had to actually go back inside the helicopter and get them out. Later on one of the [fellows] died. I think he got too much water in his lungs. I am glad that I wasn’t that unfortunate to have that happen. I thought that wasn’t very smart doing that and not knowing what was down there. It was an incredible sight to see the bottom of the [Colorado] River when the water was clear. You could see the bottom of the river and just float along there [and see] rocks and everything in the bottom. I have also been down there when I have seen military jets fly up through there. When we were [very young] they would come screaming in there and up that canyon. It was quite an [event]. One time we were down there taking groceries to “Georgie” White. When she came there she had a [fellow] on the boat that had fallen and hurt himself [very] bad. [Inaudible] So he walked out that night and drove over to Tuweap and got a hold of John Riffey. John Riffey was a park ranger there. He had a radio so he could call [into] town and get a hold of somebody. He did that [at] night and by the next morning a helicopter came in there to get this [fellow]. They met on the sand bar. I remember going down the trail that morning with groceries and here came this helicopter. These people were just waking up and he came in there and landed on that sand bar. Sleeping bags went everywhere in that river! It was a sight. [Laughter] JR: [Laughter] MD: [Laughter] EB: Some of [the sleeping bags were] in the eddy there. They came back and got ahold of [some of] them, but some of them went on down the [Colorado] River. [Laughter] One time we were going down there [and] we had a pack horse. We couldn’t ride him. We were trying to break him. He would buck all the time. My dad and my brothers decided we were going to get that [habit] out of him. So we packed him up and headed him down there. When he got close underneath the honeycomb there, his alfog hit the side of it. It buggered him and he [tried] to buck, fell off the trail and went down in the ravine there. A big rock slid down on his neck and he couldn’t get up. He just flopped his head until he about put his eye out. We had to [finish carrying the bags on our backs] that day. Dangerous things happen all the time. JR: Certainly. [Would] you tell about your relationship with the [United States] Government, BLM and [the National] Park Service over the years? EB: When they came or our relationship today? Restate your question. JR: [Would] you tell us more about your relationship with the [United States] Government, the BLM and [the National] Park Service back then or now? E B: I have always tried to maintain a good relationship with them, I was taught at a very young age. [There are] stories about John Riffey, the park ranger over at Tuweap. There are books about him and the kind of [fellow] he was. I was fortunate to be a little [boy] when he, my dad and my Uncle [Vivian August] “Pat” [Bundy] were kind of the three main men out there on that mountain. They all helped put out fires, watched [over] things and helped each other out. So I [was able] to understand what the park ranger [does]. He was a good [fellow]. We always helped each other. When I was sixteen years old my father transferred our grazing permit out there to me and my older brother [Mark]. We came in to the office up here on Tabernacle [Street] and got acquainted with them. My dad would take us in there. We met the [fellows]. He helped us to understand the grazing situation and how to do it all. Over the years we have had great people here [in St. George with] the BLM. All of the time we haven’t agreed with what they have done. They have tried to cut my permit down there before. I came in and said, “Why are you cutting it? Because of feed?” I said, “I don’t agree with you.” One manager went with me down in the canyon and I showed him. He took a good look at it and when we came back he didn’t cut it anymore. So I always feel like if you sit down at the table, talk it over and work out things there is absolutely no reason why there needs to be a great burden on the rancher or a big cry from the BLM saying we are not doing something right. Just sit down and work it out. Today I still feel like we have a good relationship with them. I have run cattle in other states and have had other BLM districts to work with and by far my experience with the BLM in St. George has mostly been a good experience because they have been willing to work with us. [Inaudible] I feel fortunate to be in this area because these [fellows] have been just awesome. JR: I think that is all the questions I have unless you have any stories you want to tell. EB: I don’t know if I have any other [stories]. I wrote a few notes down here. I have probably told you everything. I could go on telling stories. JR: [Laughter] That is why we are here. We appreciate getting to learn about your life and perspective. EB: Water has been a big issue out there on the [Arizona] Strip all of our lives. I don’t know how he ever did it, but my dad spent quite a bit of money one time trying to drill a well on Mt. Trumbull to get water. He never got any. I have drilled twice down on our ranch at Mt. Trumbull and never got water either time. We have spent a lot trying to find water there because that is the most crucial thing out there. I watched one well driller [Daryl Switchenberg] wreck his airplane there. We had a little strip right there in front of our house because my brother flew [in and out]. My dad built one there so I landed mine all the time too. There have been about four [airplanes] wrecked right there because it is short [runway]. It is not very long. That well driller was one of them. My brother [Owen] was another one. Another [fellow] came out there and he took off. There is a fence right at the end of the runway. You get off the ground and there is probably just about that much before the nose hits the post. He hit that fence and went right over on their backs. JR: Oh man! MD: [Inaudible] EB: I will let you go. [END OF RECORDING TWO.]
Orvel Allen Bundy | Oral History
Orvel Allen Bundy was interviewed on February 17, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Orvel Allen Bundy was interviewed on February 17, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: Where were you born? OB: [I was] born in Mt. Trumbull, [Mohave County] Arizona [on] November 1, 1933. MH: You remember the day? [Laughter] OB: [Laughter] No, I don’t [remember] the day! MH: Did you go to [the] Mt. Trumbull School? OB: I went to the eighth grade there. I went down to Woodward [School] in St. George for part of the ninth grade. Then I got smarter than the teachers in that school! MH: What was your father’s name? OB: [My father was] Roy Bundy. MH: How many brothers and sisters did you have? OB: I had five brothers and six sisters. [Iven Leroy, Bessie, Helen, Elmo Aaron, Barbara, Clarence Ambrose, David Ammon, Leah, Newell Alma, Juanita and Madge Doretta Bundy] MH: Was your father ranching [on the Arizona Strip] at that time? OB: Yes, ranching and dry farming. MH: Were you still dry farming there? OB: Yes. MH: Where did you go when you quit school? Did you go back to the [Arizona] Strip? OB: I really saw no future [on] the [Arizona] Strip. It was during World War II and my brothers were all in the [United States] Army. I went back and helped at the ranch but I maybe felt that ─ MH: Then what happened? OB: After I got out of school and the war was over, my brothers came home. My oldest brother [Iven Leroy] was working in Wyoming. He went to work up there for a dude ranch during the summer. [Inaudible] [Another] brother lived in Bunkerville [Nevada]. [After we] married, my wife [Sara “Sally” Berry (Hamilton) Bundy] got a teaching contract in Las Vegas [Nevada] and we lived there a year. I went to work for Rocky Mountain Produce Company [out of St. George, Utah]. I delivered produce in Las Vegas. I didn’t like that too [well]. Then [a] brother went to work for Vera Crupp. She had a big ranch on the other side of Las Vegas. I worked up there for about a year. At that time, my dad [Roy Bundy] was getting up in years and couldn’t get around. Then he passed away. I really didn’t give [it] a thought that I might have a chance to buy [the] home ranch because I had two brothers [who] lived [on the Arizona Strip] and had [ranches]. But my sister [Madge Doretta Bundy], just older than me, called and said, “Mother [Doretta Marie (Iverson) Bundy] is concerned [about] what she should do with [the property at] Mt. Trumbull. Would you and Newell like to buy it?” [Laughter] I didn’t even ask him! I said, “You bet.” We went to a lawyer and made [up] an agreement [on] how much. Mother named the price she wanted and we had a contract. [Newell] was working [on] construction and he had a steady job. I didn’t [as] I was just [working] here and there. It was agreed that I [would] take care of the cattle. The people living out there knew that “Sally” was a [school teacher] so they [hired] her to teach school there. That was really a boost! The two of us moved out there and she taught school for two years, I believe. In the meantime, my brother was going to be there and help me [work the ranch but] had other [situations that] got in his [way]. Finally, I said, “What am I going to do? I will either sell it or buy it. You are not holding your end up as far as I am concerned. Maybe you think you are. I will sell or buy whatever you want to do.” He said, “I am working and I can’t take the time off to go out and [work] at it.” I said, “Okay, I will buy it.” MH: [So] you bought the ranch. OB: Before that, we had bought a [small] [grazing] permit on Bunkerville Mountain. We had it [for] about a year. I think I figured [it was worth] about $3,000.00 or $4,000.00 plus sixty-seven head of cattle. [So] I traded him [and] ended up buying [the ranch]. I am quite proud of this because there were a few of my family saying [he] will never get it paid for. I paid everything on time and I felt [very] good about that.
MH: [Did] it take a little work to do it? OB: It took a little work and a little bit of sacrifice but it was worth it. MH: We [need] to back up a little bit. [Did] you go to Wyoming and were [you] a cowboy? OB: [I was a cowboy] on a dude ranch. MH: Where [was the] dude ranch? OB: [It was] just out of Sheridan [Wyoming] up against the Big Horn Mountain. MH: [How did you] convinced “Sally” to tie up with you? Is [this] where you met her? OB: Doggone it, I don’t really mean to tell you everything! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] It must have been interesting for her to drive out to Mt. Trumbull! OB: I was kind of a wallflower until I got up there. I met the nicest lady that I [would] ever want to meet and I fell in love with her the first thing. MH: You came off well! OB: She said, “I have to finish school. My dad told me I have to finish school before I can get married. Before we can get married you have to ask my parents.” I thought: that is a little different wrinkle, but I went back there over the Christmas holidays. I talked to her mother first. She said, “Yes, take her.” [Her dad] grandpa was a little different. He said, “I have quite a lot of money invested in her [education]. I would like her to finish school. She will be graduating with a teacher’s certificate and I would like her to use that.” I said, “Yes.” He doesn’t know how much that helped us to [have] that teaching certificate. It has taken both of us to get what we have, not that we have that much, but what we have we both [worked for] it. MH: What [breed] of cattle were you running when you started out? OB: I don’t remember; it was quite a long time ago. I don’t know why, but my dad sent clear to Kansas City and bought three old Hereford bulls. They shipped them out there. At that time, there were many different crosses, mainly Hereford, and Hereford and Durham. They were all crossed. He ran those Hereford bulls. At that time, probably Polled [Herefords] were not quite as good a cattle as horned Herefords but it pretty [much was] Hereford and Hereford cross. Now I have [Red] Salers cross. I still have Herefords. I bought nineteen head of Hereford heifers from [a ranch in] Parowan [Iron County, Utah] last year. They have more Hereford in them. I have Angus, Brangus, Brahmas cross and some Longhorn [cattle]. MH: You do have some Longhorn? OB: I don’t like horned [cattle]. I like to see horns but I don’t like to handle horned [cattle]. MH: [They can be a] worry. What is your brand? OB: Lazy S O. I bought that [brand] from Clyde McQuaid. I believe he bought it from somebody on the [Arizona] Strip. MH: Are you running most of your cows north of Parashaunt? OB: Yes, on my private property at Mt. Trumbull. I [also] have a joint allotment on top of the Hurricane Rim. In the wintertime I go into Whitmore [Canyon] right down next to the Colorado [River] on the other side of [the river]. MH: Do you remember any of the old timers like [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” Waring, Bill Shanley, and that bunch, when you were growing-up? OB: [Laughter] Let me tell you a little story. I don’t remember how old I was for sure, [maybe] about nine [years old]. [James] “Jim” King, Bill Shanley’s brother, had a place down at the rim about ten miles from [where I lived]. I don’t know how it happened but they had had a big three-year-old steer [that] came off the mountain. I know how it got there but I am not going to get into that detail! Here came “Jim” King. He was looking for him. Mother had fixed something to eat for somebody and he was [very] friendly. We were talking about [the steer]. He said, “I don’t know. I might have quite a lot of trouble taking that steer back up there. It is just one animal.” So my cousin and I volunteered to go with him. At that time, there were very few fences. There was one fence between the bottom end of our allotment. It went into the Clayhole [Wash]. As [soon] as the first rain dropped, all the [John Henry] Schmutz and [Jack] Finley cattle from Tuweep and Mt. Trumbull came to the water. We [didn’t] have a big pond but a good pond [was] there on [inaudible] section there. You couldn’t depend on anything because [there would be] 200, 300 or 400 head of cattle [that would] come to [the] pond and then our cattle suffered. As quick as that happened, we started pushing those cattle down to that fence. When we took [the] steer down about four or five miles, here was Earl Pressley. He was an old bachelor at that time. We came down there driving that steer and, of course, we stopped down at “Jim” King’s place. He said, “Have dinner with me.” So we did. There was a little dugout about eight or ten feet and, as I remember, [there] was kind of a round table that we [had] back in there. Pressley was a little bit of a man but he was talking.. I don’t know how the subject came up but he said, “Those dirty Schmutz son-of-a-guns pushed those cattle down here.” Johnny Pointer had a homestead down there and was in [World] War [II] at the time. He said, “Those dirty, rotten, son-of-a-guns pushed those cows down on that boy [who] is off fighting for him.” I said, “I [inaudible] know.” He hit me right in the ribs with [his] elbow and it knocked the wind clear out of me! I didn’t say anything more. After we [were] through eating he said, “Lordy, son, were you trying to get us both killed? That man [inaudible]. He would have shot us both.” MH: [Laughter] You have to learn to be quiet once in awhile! OB: [Laughter] MH: Was Bill Shanley around then? OB: Yes. MH: Did he have a still? OB: I don’t know that he had one there, but I imagine he did. He was known for that. MH: Were you afraid of him as a boy? OB: No, no. I have heard a lot of stories about Shanley, what a rotten, no good son-of- a-gun he was, but when he came to our place he was a gentleman. I will stand and tell anybody that. I have a book here someplace that old [Grant] Harris wrote about Shanley. I think Harris was trying to make a buck! He wasn’t telling the truth. MH: Just about everybody knew Shanley and didn’t think he was that bad of a [fellow]. [Inaudible] OB: I am sure when he got a little brew in him he probably turned out a lot different. MH: In those days you didn’t have four-wheelers, [so] was everything done on a horse? OB: Yes. MH: How many horses did you have out there? OB: I don’t know, probably not many. Dad always thought that he needed a work team. He [had] a big work horse and a stud horse. I don’t know what breed of horse [it] was. He had that out there [inaudible] mustang mares. We got a lot of good use out of some of them. MH: Were there any Indians still out that way when you were growing-up? OB: No. MH: They were gone [by then]. Did you ever get down to the Colorado [River]? OB: My winter [grazing] country is right where I can ride my horse with one foot hanging over the rim. MH: Are you [running cattle] down there in the winter? About what time of the year do you bring them back? OB: About the fifth of May. MH: Do you remember when [the] Taylor Grazing [Act] came in? [June 28, 1934] OB: No, not really, but right [about] that time, yes. MH: That is when a lot of the fences [inaudible]. Was the store at Wolf Hole still going? OB: Yes. I can remember that. I remember going to town on the mail [truck]. The mail came through there. I don’t remember the detail. It must have been in the spring. We stopped at Wolf Hole [and] it seems to me like we had dinner there. It was kind of a blustery day and somebody said, “It looks like it is going to storm.” Mother said, “Yes, as the wind blows.” [Laughter] I [also] remember [riding in] the mail [truck when] I was a little feller. Mrs. Kenworthy [who] lived at Little Tank was a fine lady but she talked awful loud to her boy! I remember they sent some fresh peas out [to her] with the mail. She cooked them up and we had dinner with her. We came in the house and I was a little bit backward and it seemed like she was extra loud. I said, “I would like to have some peas.” She said, “If you need to run outside, sonny, go out around back.” [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] What was the road like in those days? Was it a little rough getting down [into] Quail Canyon? OB: No. The CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] had been in Quail Canyon and overhauled [the road]. As I remember, it wasn’t too steep. MH: What were the winters like? Were there a lot of times when you couldn’t get out? OB: I remember vaguely [the winter of] 1936 and 1937. To the west of our house, it wasn’t two 200 feet where we had the wood pile. I remember packing wood to the house and [the] snow drifts were way over my head. All [we had] was a trail out there. MH: Could you get down to St. George? OB: No, we didn’t. We were prepared for those things. We didn’t eat big, but we ate! When we moved out there in 1958 [or] 1959 a [fairly] big snow [storm] hit. We were snowed in out there [for] about two weeks. They brought a caterpillar [grader] out and pushed the road open. When my wife couldn’t drive she [would] walk to school down that long mile. MH: That is a long mile. OB: I remember a Christmas program that she [put on]. I had a Ford tractor and I [cleared] the road and did the best I could with it. We went down to the school. MH: Who was the best cowboy out there [that] you ever [knew]? OB: You have to define a cowboy. MH: The best [cowboy] to work cattle from a horse. OB: I had a couple of brothers. [Elmor] “Frosty” Bundy could probably take care of things about as [well] as anybody I knew. MH: What was the worst thing that ever happened to you out there? OB: [Laughter] You have to define worst thing! MH: [Laughter] Oh, I don’t know, medical emergency, whatever. OB: You are digging into my private life! MH: Oh [inaudible]. OB: But I will tell you there is a Supreme Being that looks after dumb cowboys. [While] we [were] living out there, I was gone when my wife had two attacks of appendicitis. But we didn’t know that [it was appendicitis]. When I came back, she had terrible pains. One night she woke me up and she said, “I am really having bad pains in my side.” She was teaching school at the time. She said, “I don’t know what we should do. What do you think?” I got up and I knelt at the bed [emotional] and I asked what I should do. We had a bedroom with a north window and after I [prayed] for information, I looked up and there was a falling star. [Emotional] I said, “We are going to town.” I [put] her in the station wagon and we came to town. We barely got in there. Her appendix had broken. They took it out [inaudible]. MH: Apparently you did the right thing, Orvel. [Inaudible] OB: Yes, [laughter] there is no doubt in my mind. MH: [It was] a long way out there. You didn’t have a hospital around the corner. What is the happiest time you ever had out there? OB: I don’t know. You can define happiness in a lot of different ways. I can tell you another story and it evolves around my immediate family. When the summer rains came and brought water out, that was a happy time. It didn’t matter when. If it [had] rained [there would be] flood water out [in] some places [and] we [would] go to [look]. It was [a] Saturday afternoon and we went to the mountain to see where it had rained. We made a circle coming home and I came across a little flat where the water had puddled. We bogged down and it was evening. I shoveled and shoveled and shoveled and I wasn’t getting [anywhere]. We had the two boys, Bill, Clay, Margie and Barry. [Barry] was the baby. We had one sleeping bag behind the seat and some clothes. [My wife] put the three [children] in the sleeping bag in the back and she cuddled up with Barry in the front [of the wagon]. I walked off the mountain about five miles, got the tractor and came back and got us out. We got to [The] Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] on time! MH: [Laughter] You made it back! I bet that was a lonely walk. OB: It was, but it was necessary. MH: Who were your closest neighbors? OB: They were a mile away. MH: Who was that? OB: Ben Bundy. MH: Yes, that is a long walk to [the] schoolhouse. OB: But I walked it quite a lot of times. MH: When did you move into St. George? OB: [Laughter] I don’t remember. Bill was in the [inaudible] MH: I heard a story. You had a place out there and [your] boys decided it wasn’t quite up to snuff and they built you a new one. Is that right? OB: That is right. I said to [a] carpenter I needed a house overhauled. He said, “No, but I will build you a new one.” Before my mother died she said, “If you decide you want to do something to the house go ahead. It doesn’t matter.” A lot of my brothers and sisters said, “You can’t do away with that house.” I said, “Yes, I can. It belongs to me.” So that is what I did. MH: You have a new [house] now. [Do] you spend three or four days a week out on the ranch [inaudible]? [Are] most of your boys following in your footsteps? OB: I hope so. After we bought the place [my] dad was in bad shape. I heard him say quite a number of times, “Don’t ever sell it. We might want to live there.” I wouldn’t change anything. I told my boys they would probably have to take care of me and [their] mother. As long as we [are] alive, they were to take care of it and they weren’t to sell the place. MH: I have two questions I always ask. The first one is, what is it about Mt. Trumbull, [inaudible], the Arizona Strip that you [folks] don’t want to let go? Everybody I talk to, [they] all say the Arizona Strip is a very special place. Why is that? OB: I don’t know. I guess if you would read [the] book you [would] probably come close to knowing. MH: [Inaudible] OB: We came in there in 1916 and nothing was easy. But it was what we wanted, what we like to do and that is still what it is. It is what I like to do. It is not the money I make, it is the kind of life that I live. MH: That is a good answer. The next [question] you get a chance to come back. Given the fact that they made [the Grand Canyon-]Parashaunt [a National] Monument, how would you like to see it managed and administered? OB: Let me say first, I have no respect for President [William Jefferson] Clinton [or] [Secretary of the Interior] Bruce [Edward] Babbitt. I think they are dirty dogs, dirty, dirty dogs. MH: For making [the area] a monument? OB: For making [the area] a monument. Let me go a little bit further here. A number of years ago there was quite a lot of bicycling from the schoolhouse up there. They [would] turn and come down through my allotment. [One time] I came up the mountain [and] followed them clear on down to the north end and [there] was a camp. It [belonged to] a daughter of the Babbitt brother’s cattle company [Babbitt Brothers Trading Company] [inaudible]. The foreman was there. He was helping [the] daughter [who] came along to cook. I inquired a little bit and he said, “Well, “Brucie boy” was not out of the same stock as the other Babbitt boys [Paul and James]. His mother [Frances Babbitt] left the old man [Paul J. Babbitt] and went to San Francisco [California]. When “Brucie” grew up, he came back and wanted his inheritance [but] the others didn’t want him there. They ran him for Governor [of Arizona].” MH: [Inaudible] politician. OB: “He still wanted to come back so they ran him again. He [was] Secretary [of the Interior] and they didn’t want anything to do with him. So he came back.” This is me talking now — what damage can I do to them? He made this cotton-picker [area] into a monument. MH: That is a good story! OB: I believe if you follow it, it is [fairly] well right, too. MH: [Laughter] Orvel, this has been a great interview! I really appreciate [it]. [END OF TAPE]
Sara “Sally” Berry (Hamilton) Bundy | Oral History
Sara “Sally” Berry (Hamilton) Bundy was interviewed on January 25, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. She related her experiences living on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Sara “Sally” Berry (Hamilton) Bundy was interviewed on January 25, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. She related her experiences living on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: “Sally” Bundy is the wife of Orvel [Allen] Bundy and has a long and varied history of [living] on the Arizona Strip and particularly [in] Bundyville [Arizona]. You are not from St. George or southern Utah. How did you wind up here? SB: I am from the suburbs of Philadelphia [Pennsylvania]. I met my husband when I was working [one] summer on a dude ranch [near Sheridan] Wyoming. He was from here. [After] we [were] married, we lived in Las Vegas [Nevada] and then in Bunkerville [Nevada]. Finally, we [moved] to Mt. Trumbull [Arizona]. MH: What year was that? SB: It had to have been about 1960 [or] 1961. It was probably in 1960. First, we went out and spent six months there. Orvel [came down with] rheumatic fever and we moved back to Bunkerville. That summer, the people from Mt. Trumbull wrote and asked if I would come out and teach because they couldn’t [hire] a teacher. We moved back again that summer. MH: What was your first impression when you drove down Main Street [Valley]? [Laughter] SB: It was different! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] I bet it was! SB: It was different [and] it was dry. It certainly wasn’t like where I came from anyway. The worst [part] about living out there was [that] it was so primitive and nothing [like] I was used to at all. MH: [Was there] any electricity [or] indoor plumbing? SB: No. I had two little children [and] they were not school age yet, [so] it was hard. We had to haul all our drinking water from St. George. We caught water in barrels for washing, but we had to haul our drinking water. A lot of times it was in the back of the truck and I would have to go down to the corrals to draw it! We had a wood stove. The first year we were there we didn’t have a refrigerator. I have always said that was the hardest [time of all]. MH: [Being] without a refrigerator? SB: You could not keep anything. When Orvel’s family lived out there, they had a dugout in the hill where they kept [their food]. But we didn’t have any place to put anything so [we had] no leftovers. You couldn’t keep anything. The milk was never cold. MH: So here you are in the middle of Bundyville with two young children and none of the conveniences you felt necessary to raise them. How did you manage to teach school with two young children? SB: Orvel took them with him. At that time he wasn’t working away [from home and] was building fences. That was the big [project] that winter. He spent the winter building fences on the mountain and took [the children] with him. MH: What was the schoolhouse like? Did it have central heating? SB: Oh no! We had a [small] wood stove in the middle of the school. Uncle [James Gwendol] “Ben” Bundy’s [children] were the janitors and they would build the fire and bring the wood in. Teaching school [there] was totally different. I only had eight children, but they were in six different grades: first grade to [the] seventh grade. It was hard keeping ahead of them in all their subjects. In Arizona, at that time, you didn’t teach social studies. You taught geography and history. So it was a lot of work just staying ahead of a first grader. MH: What was the highest grade you taught? SB: [The school] would have gone to [the] eighth [grade] but I only had a seventh grader. MH: After the eighth grade, where did they go? SB: They had to go to St. George to school. MH: [Did] you have eleven [students]? SB: I had eight [students] but they were in six different grades. MH: Were they like children everywhere else, inquisitive? SB: Yes. They were good [and] we really had fun. My parents had sent me a battery record player. [Laughter] We square danced and did art projects together. We did creative writing together. It kept me busy! MH: Can you remember any specific instance where the [students] gave you a bad time? SB: In school they were [fairly] good. I did have some trouble [laughter] with one of Uncle “Ben’s” [boys]. He gave me quite a lot of trouble. I can remember getting after him and finally threatening to tell his parents. They lived not very far from the school. After school, I got in my car and went over there. I can remember him jumping on the car trying to stop me from going over there to tell his parents. [Laughter] MH: Did he stop you from telling his parents? SB: No. MH: Did you tell them? SB: I did. MH: Was some appropriate action taken? SB: I am sure there was, yes. [Laughter] MH: How did the [students] get to school? SB: They were all within walking [distance]. They brought “Putsie”[with them]. Their dog always came and they had a lamb that followed them to school a lot. It [stayed] outside all the time. [Laughter] MH: Would [it] have been a long walk for some of those [students]? SB: No. They weren’t too far [and] they could cut through the fields. “Ben’s” [children] were very close, but [Chester] “Chet” [Marion Bundy’s] [lived] a little further [away]. They [could] cut through so it wasn’t [very] far. I had the car most of the time. MH: Did you administer all the testing? SB: Yes. MH: Was there a graduation ceremony at the end of the [school] year? SB: I didn’t ever have anyone [who] graduated. They did have graduation [exercises] but I didn’t have any [students who] graduated. We always had a Halloween party and a Christmas party. [We] put on a Christmas program. MH: Did you have a Christmas tree? SB: Yes. MH: Where did that come from? SB: They cut it out there. MH: They took it off [of] Mt. [Trumbull]. SB: It was [always] a beautiful tree. I wish that I had pictures of [them]. We made every decoration out of paper. [The tree] was [always] beautiful. MH: Was there electricity in the school? SB: No. MH: Did you need extra lighting? Or was the schoolroom light enough that you didn’t [need] additional lighting? SB: We didn’t have it, anyway. [Laughter] If we had a program at night, they brought [in] lanterns. But we didn’t have any [extra lights] during the day. The [students] would sit in a circle around the wood stove. I wore my coat most of the winter in the building because I was further away and it was cold. MH: I imagine it was. What did you do when you [had] a good snow storm? [Did you] close the school or keep it [open]? SB: No, I don’t remember us ever closing the school. The winter I taught out there “Ben” and his wife [Beatrice (Nelson) Bundy] were off building fences to make a living. [Their children] were [usually] alone. The seventh grader was [their] oldest [child]. They took the ones [who] weren’t in school [with them]. They did have a first grader. I can remember them making so much fun of the one [who] was in [the] fifth grade, Cheryl [Bundy]. They said her oatmeal was terrible! She had to cook their breakfast. I remember they would milk the cows and get milk on their pants. If you have ever [been] near a wood stove with milk on the pants, whoa, it was bad! I remember [that] it was [in] January. It was Wendell [Bundy’s] birthday. He was the seventh grader. I felt so bad because his parents weren’t there. We brought some [gifts] down and made snow cream for his birthday [at school]. MH: How often did you get to St. George? SB: We usually came about once a month. I would bring [our] laundry in. Of course, I did laundry out there, but when I came I nearly always [brought] laundry. [This] is when we would get [our] groceries. MH: Was St. George was the nearest medical facility? SB: Yes. MH: Did you ever have any medical emergencies? SB: I had emergency medicals. Three different times I had an appendicitis attack when I was out there by myself. The first [attack] was in the summer and, by the time anyone came, the attack was over. I was so sick [that] I could not walk to the main road to flag anyone down. The second time, Orvel took me to town but, of course, with appendicitis they can’t tell [anything] after [the attack] is over. They said, “Next time, bring her right in.” The [third] time was when I was teaching. It happened in the middle of the night. He took me in and I [had] my appendix out. We missed a week of school but we made it up at the end of the year. MH: [Laughter] The [students] had to make it up? SB: Yes. MH: [Did] you [go] back [to teaching school] a week after an [appendectomy]? SB: Yes. MH: That is getting right back up on the horse! SB: I had to! [Laughter] [There was] nobody else to teach [school]. MH: Who was the doctor in St. George? Is he still here? SB: It would have been either Dr. [Wilford J.] Reichmann or Dr. [McLaren “Larry”] Ruesch. I [don’t] remember which one it was. Bill [Bundy] broke his arm when he was about four years old. MH: Is this your son? SB: Yes. He was jumping off the corral and broke his arm. He came up to the house holding it [saying], “My poor little arm.” We had to bring him to town and get [it] set. Another time we went in [for medical care], it was the year [when] I was teaching, too. After school, we went up to check the fence that Orvel had been building up on the mountain. He had one guy wire across the top. It was dusk [and] we were getting ready to come home. I ran into the wire. [There] was just the one wire and I didn’t see it. I cut my head [and] it was bleeding badly but we did get the bleeding stopped by the time we got off the mountain. He still took me to town and I [had] it sewed up. [I was] back [in] school the next morning! [Laughter] MH: Stitches and all! What was the road like back in the 1960s? SB: It was nothing like it is now. [It was] much worse! Going up the mountain [the road] was very narrow. MH: Was this going up towards Nixon Springs? SB: Yes, going up towards Nixon [Springs]. You had to back down if [you met] someone coming down. I always listened to make sure nobody was coming either way when I drove up or down. [Laughter] But that was a worry. The dugway coming to town was much narrower. MH: Was the Quail Creek dugway much narrower? SB: Yes. The road wasn’t nearly as good. [Laughter] MH: I can remember coming over [Mt.] Trumbull to Bundyville [Nevada] with John Riffey one time and [the] road was not that [inaudible]. SB: No. MH: Was there anybody living [in] Whitmore [Canyon] at that time? SB: When we first moved out there, Orvel spent time down in Whitmore [Canyon] working for Cleo Wood. MH: Was Cleo still down there? SB: Yes. Orvel would go down during the week and leave me up there alone. He was down there at that time. [Inaudible] and Sarah Jordan worked down there, too. They stayed down there. When we went to the canyon we would always visit with them. MH: Did you ever go all the way to the Grand Canyon, down Whitmore [Canyon and to the [Colorado] River? SB: Yes. The first time I walked down was when Barry [Bundy] was a baby. It would have been about 1964 or 1965. He was about six months [old] and we went down. We all walked down. Margie [Bundy] was almost three years old. I have been back a couple of times since [then]. MH: Was [Vivian August] “Pat” Bundy living there at the time? SB: Yes, he was. We didn’t see a whole lot of them. [His wife was Ruth (Hofbauer-Sullivan) Bundy.] We would [usually] see them on the road mainly. MH: Did you have any of his [children] in school? SB: No. His [children] were all gone by the time we moved out there. MH: Who else was living out there? SB: [There] was just “Chet” Bundy and “Ben” Bundy. “Chet” had three or four [children] in school and Ben had four [children]. MH: When did you move into St. George? SB: We moved in 1968. Julie [Bundy] was two [years old]. It would have been about 1968. We came in [at] Christmas time. I wasn’t teaching then. I only taught one year out there because I had a baby the next year. They had some other [teachers] and we moved to town. They were not happy because they didn’t have enough children to hold school. By then it was down to about five [students]. Mrs. Williams was teaching there for awhile. She had a couple of grandchildren [who] came to school out there, too. By the time we [moved] to town, there were only five [students] in school. My two boys were two of them. MH: When you first moved out there, what did your family think? Did they ever come out to visit you? SB: Yes, they did. My dad was ready to pack me up and take me back [home]! [Laughter] They weren’t happy! MH: What was Orvel doing when you met him in Wyoming? SB: We were both working on a dude ranch. I was a waitress and he was a wrangler. I worked there four summers. He worked there the last two summers I was there and then stayed [for] the winter as well. MH: Did he talk you into coming here? SB: Yes. The first year we were married I taught school in Las Vegas. Then Bill was born and we moved to Bunkerville. Then we moved out to Spring Mountain Ranch out of [Las] Vegas, back to Bunkerville, then to Mt. Trumbull and back to Bunkerville. [Laughter] MH: [Did] you go back to Bunkerville when you left Mt. Trumbull? SB: He [was] sick that year. We didn’t move back to Bunkerville. After seven years at Mt. Trumbull we moved to St. George. MH: [Were] most of the families out there ranching? SB: Yes. MH: Was Orvel’s [early] family, going back to Abraham [and Ella (Anderson) Bundy], actually farmers? SB: Yes, they [were]. They farmed a lot in the early days when he was young. He remembers growing corn, beans and wheat. It rained more at that time. [Laughter] They couldn’t have [grown those crops] when we lived there. It didn’t rain! MH: No, or today. They just don’t have the moisture. [Are] any of the other ranching families still living out there today? SB: No. Orvel is probably the only one [who] spends much time out there. Some of the families have homes out there where their [children] go, like [to] a cabin. Ed Bundy does spend some time. He works for [the] Atkins most of the time, but he does have a ranch there, his dad, “Chet’s,” [ranch]. Les [Bundy] and Wendell [Bundy] have “Ben” [Bundy’s] [ranch] so they go back and forth. But nobody [lives] out there. MH: Did they have mail service when you were living [out] there? SB: Two days a week the mail [truck] would come by with the mail. Orvel’s brother was the mailman. MH: I imagine he had some stories to tell about that! SB: [Once] we had a big snow [storm and] we were snowed in for a week. It was just before Christmas and they dropped our mail from [an] airplane. [Laughter] I don’t remember who brought it. MH: Did Orvel have a brother, Owen [Bundy], who had an airplane? SB: No, [he] is a cousin. MH: Did you ever fly in it? SB: No, [Orvel] did but I never did. MH: You never had any desire to fly in [it]? SB: I don’t know. I never even considered it. I had little [children]. MH: Where did he land it? Right [in] Main Street [Valley]? SB: They [kept] it over there at Uncle “Chet’s” place. [Owen] was one of Uncle “Chet’s” boys and he had an airstrip over there. MH: What sort of cattle is Orvel running now? Are they mostly Herefords? SB: He has [Red] Salers cross [breeds], mostly. He has Salers with Herefords and Salers with other [breeds] but mostly he has a duke’s mixture! [Laughter] MH: Are your children involved in the ranching operation today? SB: Yes. Our boys all help him when he needs to move cows. The three boys all help. MH: Where is your market? Do you take them to Cedar City [Iron County, Utah] or do the buyers come out [to the ranch]? SB: [For] quite a few years he has sold them through Superior Livestock Auction and Video. MH: A lot of people in Southern Utah are doing that now rather than truck them out. SB: That has been [fairly] good. A few years ago we had to get rid of most of our cows and we are trying to build [the herd] up again. MH: Let’s talk about [the] Bundyville Reunion. I understand you had an instrumental part in [this event]. SB: Actually, they had [the] reunion when we were first married. I can remember the first year it was up on Pine Valley Mountain [Utah]. It has been going since the 1950s. We went to Duck Creek up on Cedar Mountain [Iron County, Utah] for awhile [but] the group got too big. We moved over to Navajo Lake [on Cedar Mountain] until they kicked us out [of] there because the group was too big. Then they got [some] property from two of the [Bundy] family members. The organization bought twenty acres on Mt. Trumbull. MH: Is that up near Nixon Springs? SB: It is. [The reunion] is always [on] a weekend. A lot of people stay a lot longer than that now. We usually go out the week ahead and take the grandchildren [with us] MH: How long does it last? SB: The reunion itself is Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We have an actual campground there now [and] they have piped water down. We have [a] water catchment there with two big tanks. They have outhouses scattered around and a big cement slab. Oh, it is a big deal! I can remember when my children were younger, people [would] quit [their] jobs if they couldn’t get off to go [to the reunion]. It was the big deal. We have over 800 [people] there. We have had as many as 1,000 there, but we average 800. MH: Do some [folks] go out and stay for a week or more? SB: Some do. It seems like more [do that] lately than used to. They have lots of activities. Friday night they have a dance mainly for the young [people]. [There] usually [is] a deejay who is a member of the family. [Laughter] He brings his [equipment] from [Las] Vegas. They usually have a talent show, a skeet shoot tournament, a horseshoe tournament [and] roping contests — just dummy roping. Then they have an auction. That is how they raise their money. Saturday night they have a big dance. “Easy Country” comes out [from St. George] and plays for at least four hours. Everybody dances, whatever [their] age. Sunday they have a genealogy meeting and reminisce [about the] ancestors. They talk about one of the older ones and [have] a testimony meeting. MH: Wow! It sounds like it is a full schedule. SB: They used to have a watermelon bust. That got a little bit dangerous [laughter] and so last year they had an ice cream [social] on Sunday afternoon. That was good. MH: The [children] enjoyed that, I imagine. SB: Oh yes, [the children] have fun. They have a couple of merry-go-rounds out there for them. MH: Are these all descendants of Abraham Bundy? SB: Abraham and Ella [(Anderson) Bundy] had nine children. [Lillie Belle, Roy, James, Omer “Dick”, Ina, Mamie, Vivian August “Pat”, Chester “Chet” Marion, and Edna Bundy.] These are all descendants from them. Orvel’s family alone, just from his parents, [has] almost 300 [members]. His family is some of the best attendees. MH: [Did] Abraham [arrived] in about 1905? SB: [It was in] 1916 [or]1917. Orvel’s sister [Barbara Bundy] was the first child born out there [on] September 7, 1917. MH: Did Orvel serve in the armed services? SB: He didn’t. He had rheumatic fever when he was young and had heart problems so he was [rated] 4-F. Every one of his brothers served. His father was terribly crippled with arthritis. MH: Was that Roy [Bundy]? SB: Yes. Orvel doesn’t ever remember him standing straight up. [Orvel and his brothers] had to help [do the work] on the ranch. When they were all called into the armed services, the girls had to [do the work]. So it was kind of bad. Then his brother [Iven Leroy Bundy] drowned in the Colorado [River]. He was the oldest [child]. That [happened] before Orvel was born. They all left for the service. I was telling [this story to] my grandson. He had to talk in church [about] enduring to the end. He said, “I want to tell a story about Grandpa Roy.” I said one of the best stories that we can remember was Orvel’s brother, Newell [Alma Bundy], [who] had to go into the [United States] Army. It was time for him to leave. I don’t know whether he was driving or Roy. Roy, his dad, was with him and the truck broke down. Orvel says it was between [inaudible] Divide and near Wolf Hole somewhere. Newell had to go to catch the bus. He got his dad out and [put] the seat from the truck under a tree. [He] sat his dad under [the] tree and he walked towards town. He ended up getting a ride. This is what I heard, anyway, that it was six months later before he found out if his father had been picked up or [if] someone had found him. He was in Italy [by then]. MH: When you were teaching school, raising your family, Orvel was ranching [and] fencing. I suspect most of the other men [in] Bundyville were out working at various jobs. [This] left just you and the other wives. SB: Aunt “Gen” [Genavieve Bundy] was there most of the time. Aunt Chloe and Uncle [James] “Jim” [Bundy] were there. Yes, it was lonely. It was very lonely. MH: You must have had quite a sisterhood with the women [who] were out there. SB: Yes, but I didn’t have transportation [much of the time] and I ended up having to walk and pull [children] in a wagon or push them in a baby carriage. [The other women] were busy with their own [activities]. Usually, I only saw them at church. MH: Were [meetings for] The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] held in the schoolhouse? SB: Right. MH: Who was the local bishop at that time? SB: When we moved out [to the area] there were only the three men, “Chet”, “Ben” [and Orvel]. I guess Uncle “Jim” was there. Orvel was called into the bishopric too. “Chet” was the bishop. I was a recent convert to the church. When they called me out of the audience to talk, I almost had a heart attack! After that, we decided when Orvel was in charge our family talked. Finally [it] got so that when they were in charge, their family did the talks. [Laughter] MH: Did they hold church every Sunday? SB: Yes. We had Sunday school, too. I had to be the gospel doctrine teacher. [Laughter] MH: All you did was teach! SB: I led the singing in Primary. It was interesting! I taught Relief Society [meetings]. MH: They had you going in every direction! SB: [We] had to [as] there were only three of us! [Laughter] MH: What about some of the local characters out there? [Are there] any that you remember? [Who] stands out or was particularly interesting? SB: No. I remember Al Craig came down and got wheat for his chickens all the time. My [children] loved to have him come because he always brought them candy. He was fun and he would go visit them once in awhile. Of course, we visited Riffey’s [John and Mary Beth Riffey] when we went up there. I don’t really remember. We didn’t see a lot of people. [Laughter] MH: There wasn’t a lot of traffic [in] Main Street [Valley] in those days! SB: There is way more traffic now than there ever was then. That is for sure! MH: How did you get involved with the Arizona Strip Interpretive Association [ASIA]? SB: When they organized, they asked me to be on the board and I have been on [it] ever since. [Laughter] I was still teaching school when they started it. I was always interested in it. We did a lot of fun collecting [items] for the Mt. Trumbull Schoolhouse [project]. Margie, my daughter, and I collected all the pictures and put them all out there. MH: Then, of course, [there was] the tragic fire. [July 2000] SB: Yes. Then we had to do it [all over] again. The sad part is we actually have probably more pictures now but they are not the same ones. MH: I am sure there were [items] lost in [the] fire that cannot be replaced. Did you teach here in St. George when you [moved] in from Mt. Trumbull? SB: Yes, I did. I taught [for] thirty years at East Elementary [School]. MH: [Did] you finally retire from teaching? SB: Yes, in 2000. MH: When did you build the house you live in now? SB: At the ranch? Gosh, I am not sure. Five years ago? I don’t know. It hasn’t been too long ago. MH: What about your house here in St. George? SB: We built this house twenty-five years ago when there were only two houses in Bloomington Hills [Washington County, Utah]. MH: This is Bundy Lane [and] there is more than one house here now! SB: These [houses belong to] all our [children] except for the two houses past us. MH: I see they are carrying on the tradition; I notice you have a roping arena. SB: Oh yes! Our [children] all rodeo [and] our grandchildren rodeo. [The arena] is a lake right now. They have been trying to drain it so the [children] can start practicing again. [Laughter] We like to do that! Our [children] are good ropers and the grandchildren are good ropers, [too]. MH: What was the most frightening thing that ever happened to you out on the strip? SB: Probably the time I was most frightened was when someone came. I saw a truck drive up, and at that time, we were having a lot of trouble with people stealing gas. We had [gas] in barrels down by the corral and I saw a [vehicle] drive in. My [children] were little. The [vehicle] came in and [they] turned [the] lights off. I thought sure they were stealing gas. I watched and watched and [the vehicle] stayed down there and stayed down there. I was very nervous. I was very scared. I never was one [who] liked to be alone particularly, anyway. I have gotten over that, but at that time I was not good [at being alone]. Orvel was not there. He was working down in the canyon. Finally, after about an hour, the truck [drove] up to the house and pulled right up by the front door. It was Uncle “Chet’s” [children] coming to drop [off] valentines. I hadn’t even realized it was Valentine’s Day! [Laughter] But they could see me watching [them]. MH: You sat there for an hour worrying to death! SB: I [did]! MH: What were your Halloween parties like? SB: The [children] would dress up and go down to the schoolhouse. Sometimes deer hunters came. [Halloween] was usually during hunting season. We always had an Easter picnic, too. The year I taught, we went down [to] Whitmore [Canyon] and had a big family picnic. All the adults and everybody came. MH: If the weather is good, that would be a nice thing to do about that time [of the year]. SB: It was fun [and] we had a good time. MH: Did you ever have a Fourth of July parade or anything like that? SB: No, we didn’t. The Fourth of July is when the Bundy Reunion is [held]. We do have a patriotic program up there now, on Friday. When Orvel was a [boy], they used to go up on the mountain, the whole community, and have a big Fourth of July party. I think they camped over sometimes, but not when we lived there. By then, the Bundy Reunion was [being held]. MH: There were some [fairly] good cowboys that came out of Bundyville. SB: Yes. They did a lot of riding. In Orvel’s family, when they were young, they herded sheep down in the canyon before they had cattle. Again, his dad was [in poor health and] he couldn’t do anything. I think Newell was eight or nine [years old] when he went down. [He] would spend a month at a time down there with his brother. Sometimes the oldest one was only twelve. They would go down there and spend time by themselves herding sheep. MH: That is a lot of responsibility. SB: His sisters did it too. [Orvel] never had to do that because he was the last of twelve [children]. [Laughter] MH: Let me ask you a philosophical question. You came to Mt. Trumbull, Bundyville, [and] your [family] has a history [on the Arizona Strip] that goes way, way back. Your own children all spend time out there. The Grand Canyon-Parashaunt [National] Monument is a fact. It [does] exist. If you had a chance [to make any] suggestions, how you would like to see [it] managed and administered? What do you think they should do with [it]? SB: I don’t know. I hate to see them do too much improvement on it to bring [in] more people. There are already more people out there [than should be]. We have had to [rescue] so many people [who] have been stranded out there because they don’t realize there is nothing out there — no gas, no tires. I hope they will let the ranchers keep using it. To me, it should be used. People we have taken out there think it is neat, but it is primitive. That is the bottom line. There isn’t much out there. I definitely think it should be used. Multiple uses [should be available]. The cattlemen ought to be able to use it. MH: [Should it] continue to [be] used it the way it has been? SB: The way it has been used, right. MH: One last question. What is your favorite place out on the strip? SB: Goodness, I don’t know. We had wonderful Easter picnics down in the canyon where we would camp. We did it for years ─ even when our [children] were [newly] married. Now they don’t go anymore. We had a lot of fun going down there. The whole family would go down and camp. It was Easter so it was moonlight and bright. We would put our sleeping bags out on the ground down in the canyon. It was always a time when Orvel let us do whatever [we wanted to do]. We didn’t have to work. Well, I shouldn’t say always! We did have to work some of the time. A lot of times we would hike and look for Indian [artifacts] around. That was always fun. Now I would say [for] our [children] and our grandchildren it is “that house” out there. We built that house ourselves. Clay was the builder [and] they went out every weekend from May until August. We would go out and camp because it is right in the same place that the original house was. Our grandchildren love to go there. [They] beg to go out and love to stay there. MH: [It is] more fun than Disneyland! SB: Heaven’s, yes! Most of them have never been to Disneyland anyway! [Laughter] They love to go out. [A] grandson [who] lives in Salt Lake [City, Salt Lake County, Utah] was down at Christmas time. [He said], “Can we go to the ranch? Can we go to the ranch?” We didn’t. He was only here four days. They all love to go to the ranch. MH: It seems like all the people who grew up or spent any considerable amount of time in Bundyville still have a real attachment to [the area]. SB: They do. MH: Far more so than a lot of other places. They may leave, but they ultimately come back. SB: That is really true. Of course, I felt like building that house helped our grandchildren even more because we went out every week. They worked on that house. They helped build it. They did the same with the schoolhouse. So they have a real attachment to the place. They really enjoy it. MH: It is [good] cement for a family! SB: We had good times out there. We lived there [and] I say that is why my [children] turned out as well as they did. We had fun. We made our own fun. We had a radio. In the summertime we would all [bed down] out on the porch and listen to Mystery Theater. I always read to them after lunch when they would rest. We read a whole bunch of different books. We played baseball out front. We made our own fun and had ice cream parties. We had an [ice cream] freezer but we could only [make] ice cream in the winter when we had snow to freeze it. We never had ice otherwise. Sometimes in the winter we actually made snow cream instead. Those were times that the [children] really remember. We had fun. MH: [Do] any of your [children] know how to cook on a wood stove? SB: I don’t know; [I guess] they probably could. Orvel still has a wood stove in the canyon. They haven’t cooked on one, I don’t think. My [children] tell about taking pancake sandwiches to school for their lunch. We didn’t have bread unless I made it. [Laughter] MH: It didn’t hurt them. SB: No, it didn’t hurt them. We had a good time together. We spent time together. After it rained, we would drive around to all the ponds and check them. They would swim in the ponds. They had fun. I think they remember the good times. MH: Sounds like there were more good times than bad. SB: Oh yes! MH: “Sally”, thank you. It has been a great interview and I really enjoyed it. [END OF TAPE]
Lavar Foremaster | Oral History
Lavar Foremaster was interviewed on March 8, 2006, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences of ranching on the Arizona Strip in Mohave County, Arizona.
Lavar Foremaster was interviewed on March 8, 2006 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences of ranching on the Arizona Strip in Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: Were you born and raised in St. George? LF: Yes. MH: Did you go to school here? LF: Yes. MH: Has your family always been in the livestock business? LF: Yes. MH: Were you mostly running cattle on the Arizona Strip? LF: Yes. MH: [Did] your [family] get involved [with] sheep? LF: No, we never wanted any of those poison-footed animals! [Laughter] MH: How did Foremaster Ridge, here in St. George, get its name? LF: Years ago, my three uncles bought part of the ridge. On the south side that runs into the [Virgin] River bottom, they were going to run a few calves in the spring. They had corrals down there that they were using in the fall to [keep] their replacement cattle. One side of the family developed [it] down there and when they put the road up over there they named it Foremaster Ridge. MH: It is the most expensive real estate in St. George. LF: I guess! [Laughter] MH: I hope those calves enjoyed it. Did your family come into [the area] with the original settlers to St. George? LF: [They came] right after. They were not sent down here by Brigham [Young]. MH: [Did] they come down on their own? LF: Yes. MH: At one point were they out on the [Grand Canyon]-Parashaunt [National] Monument [on the Arizona Strip] running a dairy? LF: [That is] right. MH: How did that operation work? Would they go out and stay [there]? LF: They would go out in the spring of the year. One grandfather’s brother would take his family and their milk cows out [there]. They would run milk cows there. They would make cheese and butter and bring it into [St. George] in the fall to pay their tithing. MH: That is a long trip. How long would it take them to [go] back and forth out there? LF: Golly, I wouldn’t be able to guess. You would travel ten miles a day [on the] average with a team and wagon. Whatever the mileage is out there, I really don’t know. MH: Was it a four or five day trip one way? LF: Yes. I was going to tell you one thing about that. I asked my dad once about going out there. It is quite a bit different. You go up and over a ridge and then you [go] down and you could lose your way. He said that his father told him to turn around every once in awhile [to] look and see where you came from and then you [would] know your way back. [Laughter] MH: It must have worked, he got back! After the dairy experience, you [moved] out [to] Ivanpatch [Spring]. How did the family get there? LF: Ivanpatch [Spring] is where they had the dairy. They stayed there [until] 1899 or 1900 [when Preston] Nutter came through with a herd of cows, calves or yearlings or whatever he had [when] he crossed the Colorado River and found out that there was a spring of water. [Preston Nutter] went on to his homestead and filed on it in Denver [Colorado], I think. I am not sure about that. He filed on Antelope Spring. When he came back, he showed [the Foremasters] that he had filed on the spring so their squatter’s rights were over. [Laughter] He traded [the Foremasters] Antelope Spring for Ivanpatch [Spring]. MH: I understand your granddad or one of his brothers was [very] upset when Nutter did that. LF: When he [Nutter] came back I don’t know where they [the Foremasters] were. They were not out on the range then. I guess Nutter probably posted that [claim] so they would know that it was his instead of theirs. When my grandpa’s brother, Albert [Foremaster], found out [about it, he] got out his six-shooter and was going to go out and have it out with [Nutter]. Grandpa talked his brother out of it which was a good thing. [Laughter] MH: The story I heard was [that] Nutter stayed off the [Arizona] Strip for awhile. LF: He could have done that. MH: Nutter had a [fairly] big operation. What breeds of cattle were you running? LF: Back in those days I think they all ran the same [breeds]. They had brindles and roans. When the Hereford breed came out, the Foremaster boys, as they were called — “Joe” [Joseph], “Tone” [Anthony], “Phil” [Phillip] and Lindau — went into Herefords. MH: What was the advantage out there of Herefords over Durhams and some of the brindles and roans? LF: I really don’t know other than they were a little bit bigger, I think. They are a lot better to eat. [Laughter] I eat them! MH: You still eat those? LF: Yes. They were into the Hereford business when I was old enough to remember. That would have been in 1935 or 1936. They still had a few of the old breeds [of] cattle then, but not very many. MH: Did you run your bulls with your cows year round? Did you have a breeding program? LF: They did years ago but when dad and Uncle “Tone” homesteaded, they homesteaded side-by-side. Then they brought out a couple of the DeMille brothers and my grandmother on my mother’s side homesteaded. They bought my grandmother’s homestead, the two DeMille homesteads and there was a Wright out there [who] homesteaded a half-section. Marion Lauritzen [who] lived in Short Creek had [a] homestead. You know more about this, maybe, than I do. At the homestead there are eighty acres that sit in the middle of it [the ranch] that still belongs to [the] BLM [Bureau of Land Management]. But he had eighty acres of deeded ground in Short Creek. He homesteaded over there and [was] put on [the] other ground out there. When they [received] their homesteads, they [were] together and [the] homesteads were [mostly] all adjoining one another except for a couple of state sections that the [Foremasters] had. They fenced all [the land]. They had to fence it for their homestead [requirements]. I think that is about the time that they started to take the bulls away from the cows. MH: They started separating them. LF: They did it all my life. We took the bulls away from the cows and tried to have a system so [the cows] would all calve in the spring of the year. MH: Where was your market? How did you get your cows and calves to market? LF: The first market [experience] I can remember, we would gather our cattle and bring [them] into the corral [at] the homestead. A buyer would come in before they gathered the cattle. He kind of went through [the herd] with dad or someone [else]. During the beginning of my life, we delivered [cattle] to Cedar City [Iron County, Utah]. MH: Did you deliver to the Cedar [City] auction? LF: No auction. They were all sold but they had scales there. I think [the place] was an old CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] corral. They were loaded there. I don’t know [if] they put them on a train [but they] went wherever they [were] to [go]. MH: You didn’t have to drive [your calves] into St. George? LF: No. We never brought the calves in. We used to keep the cows on the homestead until [the calves were] weaned and then we would drive our cattle into St. George. [The ranchers] would usually pasture their fields off here in the wintertime. [The cattle drive] was a good way to clean the fields up. MH: You would bring them in for the winter. You didn’t leave them out [on the Arizona Strip] year round? LF: No, [we brought in] the old cows to sell, the market cows. The herd stayed there year round. The mother cows stayed out there year round. MH: A lot of places you can’t do that. What is your brand? LF: Cross F. That is not my brand; [it] is my dad’s brand. I have acquired it. I had an L V brand, L on the shoulder and V on the hip. My dad registered [it] for me but we didn’t re-register it one [year] and we lost it. I applied for a brand and had a triangle crescent on the left ribs that was my personal brand. MH: Is the brand you are using today is that [inaudible]? LF: No, the one we are using today is my father’s brand. MH: Is that [a] cross F? LF: [It is] cross F on the left hip. Dad bought that from his Uncle “Dave” [David Foremaster]. There was a “Dave” Foremaster [who] was out [at] Parashaunt, I think, with grandpa and Uncle Albert. I know dad told me once ─ maybe I don’t remember very [well] and my wife will tell you I don’t ─ he was shoeing a horse. It reared on him and hit him in the head and killed him. I think he was partners with the three brothers when they were at Parashaunt. [My] grandpa bought “Dave” and Albert out. Uncle Albert didn’t have any boys [and his] girls weren’t too interested in ranching. Grandpa had four boys [and] he needed jobs for those four boys so he bought the cows to keep the boys working. [Laughter] MH: What was it like growing up in St. George as a teenager? Did you have to go out and chase cows all summer? LF: Yes, we would go out [to the ranch] and brand calves. We used to stay for two or three weeks. We would take the horse and pack and go out and camp close to some water for four, five or six days. Then we would move on to another place and camp for four, five or six days and brand [cattle]. They used to have a community roundup every spring and every fall. Then they kind of fenced off a little bit, you would go and mostly do your own [branding]. MH: They don’t do community roundups like they used to. LF: No. MH: Is that the result of the fencing? LF: When the BLM came in and took charge of the [area, they] divided it up into allotments. The cow men were running too many cows before that anyway or else it rained a lot more than it does now! [Laughter] MH: Probably both! LF: I will tell you a story. They had the Dixie Pasture. [Ranchers] in Hurricane [Washington County, Utah] had cattle out [on the Arizona Strip]. They called it the Hurricane. It is north and west of the Antelope Spring. There are still old [fence] posts of [that] time in the ground out there. They would start riding over in House Rock Valley. When they would get over into [inaudible] they would bring the old steers, the calves and the old cows that they were going to sell and put them in the Dixie Pasture. There would be Hurricane [ranchers] that would be riding, too. When they would get [all the cattle] gathered from Kanab [Kane County, Utah], they would [come] here [and] separate them for [by] brands. The Hurricane people would come and drive their cattle to Cedar [City]. The Dixie Pasture boys would bring their [cattle] through to St. George and drive them to Modena [Iron County, Utah]. MH: They went on either side of Pine [Valley] Mountain is what you are saying. That would take awhile. How long did it take you to get from here up to Modena? LF: I really don’t know because I wasn’t old enough. [Laughter] I can remember my mother [went] out here in the northeast end of town, where the industrial area is, and there was a whole herd of cattle going northerly. [She would] say goodbye to dad and give him a kiss because he was going to be gone for another ten days or two weeks. Then they would go from here up through Veyo [Washington County, Utah], on up and out onto the desert. They had [a] big corral out there and they would [put the cattle] in there. We were talking about the buyer a little earlier. There would be a buyer there and they would put [the cattle] on the train and send them to market. They would have a place to feed their calves and a place to take the old cows. MH: A lot of work! When you were growing up, you had to work the ranch. What was the first vehicle you ever drove? LF: The first one I ever drove was a 1941 Ford Pickup. [Laughter] MH: How old were you? LF: I was twelve years old. [Laughter] Dad would let me drive it at home. We used to have milk cows on the lot and the manure [would] build up. So he would let me drive [the truck]. I would back the truck in there and load it with manure and haul it out and put it on ma’s garden for him so he could plow it up. MH: Is that why you [were able] to drive the truck? LF: Yes. [Laughter] I am going to tell you a story now while we are talking about this. [There was a place] called the Devil’s Gate on Hurricane Hill. [It was] on the Honeymoon Trail. Since you are a researcher, I would like you to research this because my wife tells me I am having a vision. [Laughter] I went through that Devil’s Gate two or three times. When the CCCs were here, going up the Honeymoon Trail [there were some] crude switchbacks in those old times. I could take you and show you where the Devil’s Gate was about halfway up. The CCCs were working to make a road up out of there so that they could trail cattle and wagons down. They had [a] run [on] the Honeymoon Trail. They had it in cahoots with the [Lions Club] Dixie Roundup. They would [ride] in from out there. MH: Mel Heaton used to do that [with his Honeymoon Trail Trek Company]. LF: Yes. You would have to hold the wagons with a lariat to keep them from tipping over on the high side. I guess that was the reason, probably, that the CCCs were going to build [a] new road up the Hurricane Hill. They just got to the Devil’s Gate and drilled it with an air compressor and loaded it with dynamite before the start of World War II. We ran cattle in Warner Valley in the spring. We would gather [the] cattle and take them up. We would usually do that on weekends before we [were] out of school, or dad would wait until we [were] out of school. In the fall, we would bring the old cows back through there. That is why I say I went through [the Devil’s Gate] two or three times. They had to blow it. They had to get rid of [the] dynamite that was in the ground. They blew the Devil’s Gate out. Now, since you are doing research work, I would like you to research and see whether you can find anybody that is old enough to remember that [happening]. [Laughter] MH: [I am to find] anyone old enough to remember Devil’s Gate? LF: Yes. [Laughter] MH: I think I know where I can start. LF: I thought, at one time, I should have gone to the CCCs when they had a reunion at Hurricane and see [if] by chance a [fellow] would have a picture. [It is] not very likely because there weren’t very many cameras back in 1941. MH: Dixie College might have some [information]. I will take a look. LF: I doubt they would have anything, [but] it is possible. My dad used to [tell about] when he was a [boy], I don’t know whether it was old A. B. Andrews [or not], [and] they were going to ride in the spring of the year and do the branding for The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] cattle company. They had a lot of cattle out there. MH: The church [did] have a lot of cattle. LF: Grandpa had gone south along Hurricane Hill to look at a place out there where some water came out. They were teasing my dad [that] the Devil’s Gate wouldn’t let my grandpa come up through! [Laughter] I have told that story to one or two [others] and I told it to my wife. She said I was just making it up! [Laughter] MH: We will see what we can find out about Devil’s Gate. LF: I just thought about that when you were saying you were doing research work. I have been going to call Bart Anderson, or have a friend of mine call him, because he is doing [talks] about researching [information] like that. [I want to] ask him if he will find out where the Devil’s Gate was. MH: What is the worst thing you ever heard your dad or granddad say happened to them out on the [Arizona] Strip? LF: Getting thrown off a horse! [Laughter] MH: He had to walk home? LF: Yes. [Laughter] It was about the worst thing because back then it was dry. My dad could go without water all day long and I would choke to death. [He] would go without food, too. They were just tougher old boys back then than what we are today. MH: No mishaps, no broken bones? LF: No. My dad never had a broken bone in all his life that I know of [or] that he ever told about. He was [fairly] lucky. He rode some wild horses but he never was broken up. MH: What is the funniest thing you ever heard about the [Arizona] Strip and somebody out there? LF: I can’t tell you very many stories about anything like that because I can’t remember them. [Laughter] MH: You lived a few of them; you just don’t want to tell! LF: Yes! [Laughter] MH: When you were growing up, did most of the families in St. George have cows out there? Did they spend time out [on the Arizona] Strip? LF: No. The Esplin boys were out there. After the BLM came in, they moved out. Old Lee [Esplin] bought a lot of [ranchers] out [who] had been out there and had rights. I am going to tell you one story. My uncle tells about [it] and you may know [have heard] it. If you come up out of House Rock Valley, you come in south of Kanab. I could take you out and show you. There is a ranch up there. Rich has a ranch up in there. I can’t think of his first name. MH: It is over by Ira [inaudible]. LF: I think you go straight up [the] canyon there. This was an old bachelor [rancher who] had never been married. I forget who they said it was, but there was one [rancher who] was leading them up through [the canyon]. When you get halfway up through there, if you take the wrong trail you end up way over east of Kanab. If you take the right trail you end up right in South Kanab. When they got up there they were way over east of Kanab. This old boy said, “We were led by an inspiring leader and he led us to the devil!” [Laughter] There are one or two other [stories] but I can’t tell you those. [Laughter] I was thinking about them. MH: Is your son, Lynn [Foremaster], working with you now? LF: Yes. I did mostly farming. I would go out and help dad brand calves and he could take his grandchildren out and they [would] do work. When we [had] the biggest share of [cattle] branded, they [would] pick up the stragglers. He took my boy and my sister’s boy, Russell, [to the ranch and they would] go out and pick up the stragglers. Uncle “Tone” never had any boys. I take that back. He had two boys but got them to boot [step-sons] by marrying my aunt. When he died, the oldest boy, Gary Pierce, got Uncle “Tone’s” cattle. He [Gary] and I were partners and I got dad’s cattle and ranch when he died. I was farming most of the time. I had a farm down here that I bought. I sold [it] and got enough money that I could afford to buy my uncle out. My boy always rode with dad and went with him. Dad used to come and get him all the time. He worked for the railroad company out in Caliente [Nevada] and helped build houses. I called him and asked him if he wanted to go into the cattle business. I thought [it] would be good enough to [make] a living for him. So I bought my uncle out and got my dad’s [cattle] and gave the cows to my son, Lynn. He is out [there] running them now. MH: [Is] your [ranch] out south of Colorado City? LF: Right. He had a house here in St. George. He sold that and went out there and fixed up a house right by where mother and dad homesteaded. They built a block house out there. They [had] the Colorado Short Creek boys over there [help build the house]. There wasn’t anyone in Colorado City yet. They brought them over [with] some of the Jessops. They built a cinder-block house there. It had a bathroom in it but it was never plumbed. Lynn went out there and fixed up the old house. [The] cinder-block was kind of cold in the wintertime. They put insulation on the inside and [used] different windows. He has a solar unit in there. He has [propane] gas to back up his solar unit. He and his wife live out there now. She likes to go out there and muck in the muck just like he does! [Laughter] So they get along good out there. They have a few chickens, dogs, cats and horses. MH: Of your contemporaries you grew up with, who was the best cowboy? LF: We never had cowboys until — you mean like these [fellows who] are in the rodeo? [Laughter] MH: No. I am talking about a cow-man, a [fellow] who could do it all. LF: Well, I don’t know. I am! [Laughter] MH: I think you could say that honestly. LF: The BLM came in and split [the land] all up in 1940. MH: The BLM came in the mid-1930s. LF: They didn’t really start fencing it off until I [had] gone into the [United States] Navy. That was in 1949 [and] 1950. [From] 1951 to 1955 the [ranches] were well split up. I rode on the roundup when I was fifteen in 1946 when it was still community [no fences]. That has been [so] long ago I can’t remember. There were twenty-five different [fellows] there that year and we started riding down to Antelope [Spring]. We went from there clear to Yellowstone [Spring]. That was the only time that I ever rode with anybody other than with the family. I think that was when my grandpa quit. My grandpa still had kind of an interest in it as a family deal. He was out there and was getting older. I don’t know how old he was. It was too hard [for him] to ride. My dad was there and I can remember him saying, “Lindau, take me home. I am done with this.” [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] LF: I never really got to ride. I am not much of a roper. That is an understatement. [Laughter] When I was a [boy], if we were going to go out to brand [cattle] I would tell dad, “Let me learn how to rope.” He [would] say, “When we get [nearly] done I will let you learn how,” or [he would say], “We haven’t got time to mess around for you to learn how. We have to get the work done.” Dad did all the roping, dragged them in, and we [boys] threw them and tied them. Uncle “Tone” [applied the] brand. MH: It sounds like your dad and Uncle “Tone” knew what they were doing. LF: Yes, they knew what they were doing. When we would get down to the end, [he would say], “We only have one or two more. Let’s get it done and get out of here.” As far as roping, I never got to do any! [Laughter] MH: You were a farmer. What were you growing? LF: I grew hay, grain, silage, milo, and sugar beets. MH: How many cuttings a year did you get with your hay? LF: [I got] five [cuttings a year]. MH: You would get five [cuttings]? LF: Yes. The fifth one was kind of a small one. Sometimes it was a good one and sometimes it was a small one. MH: Most of the ranchers around here though, like your family, would leave the herd out on the range. LF: We never brought the mother cows in. They stayed on the range all the time but we would bring the calves in and would feed them here until we ran out of feed. Then dad would sell them in the spring of the year. Usually the price was a little bit better [that] time of year. That is about when they would run out of feed. MH: If you had any advice for the BLM, what do you think they ought to do with the Arizona Strip? LF: They should get it to rain more, [that is] the very first thing! [Laughter] MH: You and Kelton Hafen! LF: Rain would solve a lot of problems between the cattle men and the BLM. I say we have been in a drought now for twenty years or more of my life. The feed was just damn near all gone. When I first started after dad left, you [could] go out there (they were teaching you how to monitor) and you would take that three-pronged fork, or whatever they called it, and take three steps and put it out and you [could] count the plants in it. They had what [was] called litter [decomposition] in there. They got down to where there wasn’t much litter left. [Laughter] My setup, we cut down. We only had [the] rights on a hundred head [of cattle] and we were supposed to be down to eighty. Don’t tell the BLM we didn’t go down to eighty! [Laughter] You go out there now and the cows are fat and there is a lot of dry litter still left. I hope the hell we don’t get any thunderstorms because we could have a hell of a fire out there in some places. If you have the feed, then the BLM won’t be worrying about trying to get you to cut down [your herd]. MH: If you have plenty of feed you are not damaging the range. LF: Yes. That is it. I shouldn’t say this. [Laughter] We do pay a little attention to the BLM. We move our cattle. Lynn just barely moved the herd the other day and put them in where we put in [a] water system. For instance, if you left a bull out there and [he] ran out on the rim next to the Hurricane Fault he [would be] so sore-footed that, within a little while, he [wouldn’t] range very far because [he was] so heavy. Now we have water strung out there. Our cattle don’t have to go a mile for water. As long as you have the water and the feed ─ the BLM can see, they are not blind. They can see [if] you have some feed out there. [Laughter] MH: I have enjoyed this. It has been an interesting interview. LF: I hope I have told you some of what you might ─ [END OF TAPE]
Deward Iverson | Oral History
Deward Iverson was interviewed on February 9, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon Parashant National Monument Oral history Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Deward Iverson was interviewed on February 9, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: How did your family come to the Arizona Strip? DI: My dad was born in Arizona on the Strip. Littlefield [Arizona] is part of the [Arizona] Strip. He lived there all of his life. It is part of him. As far as what most people [say] about the [Arizona] Strip, it is in a different part of the world than Littlefield. They homesteaded out there in the 1920s. In the late 1920s they slipped down into California and [I was born] and then brought back to the [Arizona] Strip. That was home through grade school. MH: Was their [ranch] at Little Tank? DI: No. The school was at Little Tank. They homesteaded [about] four or five miles south of Little Tank. They raised their family there until [there] were not enough [children] to [have a] school. Then they moved their family in town [to St. George]. I don’t remember the year. MH: How many brothers and sisters do you have? DI: There were two girls and seven boys. MH: It was a big family. DI: They weren’t short of [children] out there to feed and care [for]. MH: Can you remember your first teacher? DI: Yes, a [man] by the name of Lester Parker was the teacher. They had to keep eight [children] in attendance out there [in order to have] a school. Even though there were quite a lot of [children] scattered around, they started me [in school] a little bit young. Lester was the teacher at the school. The neighbors across the way close, the [Ray] Esplins, [had] an older girl, Norma [Esplin]. This was back before kindergarten was even thought of and she tended me. It took me a lot of years to get through the eighth grade out there. I don’t know how many years! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] DI: I would go for awhile and then they would hold me back [a grade] again. I would take another run at it and finally they gave up on me and graduated me. MH: Did your family run sheep or cattle? DI: My dad homesteaded. To my knowledge, he never did have any sheep. He had a few cows that he ran. But, to make a living, he would go off and work for someone else. [It was] generally digging reservoirs, doing a little fencing, cutting posts or wood to feed his family. MH: What was your first job out there? That you can remember! DI: I don’t remember when I didn’t have a job. Growing up, we had chores to do. We had [cows]. As far as a job, that went with the territory. By the time we would get our cows milked, then [we would] find enough horses to get all the [children] to school. I don’t know what you would call a job. To me, that was a job! We did it. As [for] a paying job, I never did have any paying jobs out there. MH: [Laughter] It was all family work. DI: There wasn’t a McDonald’s or any place [where] you could go to work out there. Through the years [I] would go help other ranchers the Atkins, the Childers or the Esplins. I probably [received] a little pay for [that work]. I do remember helping them branding [or] moving cows. MH: Some of the families that were out there were the Atkins and the Esplins. DI: The Atkins were sheep people. Childers [had] cattle. Esplin [had] sheep. When my dad [would be] working for one of them building [a] reservoir or fence, there would be a lot of times [that] I would go along. I would follow along and do whatever [they] were doing if [I] wasn’t supposed to be in school. Time wasn’t a pressing situation. We just kind of did whatever we did! MH: What were the winters like? Did it get rough? DI: I am sure you have some [information] on [the] winter of 1936. I was old enough to [vividly] remember that. We were going to school down at Little Tank. I don’t ever remember missing one day of school down there. I remember we came in late to school more than being on time. MH: How did you get to school? DI: We either walked or caught some horses and rode back and forth. They said it was [very] cold the winter of 1936 and I am sure it was. I don’t ever remember hurting from [the] cold out there. MH: [Wasn’t there] another bad winter in 1949? DI: Yes, I remember 1949 reasonably well. After I [was] a little older, [Wayne] Sims came out there with equipment [to] build reservoirs. I went to work for him digging reservoirs. Then [the] winter of 1949 came along. I went to Parashaunt and [the] area of country [that] now is under the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument. We plowed snow out there. They lost Wayne Gardner [in January 1949]. A posse was to come out [from] St. George. Sims showed up with some equipment that he put together and [had] a bulldozer on it. I went back into town and loaded the vehicle down with all the groceries that I could, came back and picked up Lawrence Iverson. He had stayed there at the camp [as] Sims had gone on ahead. This posse [was] camped at Little Tank. MH: They got that far? DI: Another caterpillar or bulldozer came out and they spent the night at Little Tank. It was about daylight, or after, when we came by. We just had the pickup truck pulling our camp. Sims was supposed to be building a road through the snow that we could follow. Someone there had a thermometer and it was 30° below. We hung around for awhile while they were getting their [equipment] together. This story could go on forever! [Laughter] MH: [Does] it go on to where you found him? DI: Lawrence and I tried to catch up with Sims, our boss. He only had a tank of fuel and I had the fuel in the truck. This was one of the items that I brought back [from] town. I kept trying to catch him. Some places he forgot to put his bulldozer down far [enough] and we would get stuck. I kept thinking, surely he would be sharp enough not to run out of fuel. I don’t know how far we had gone [until] I saw the tractor coming back. He had come to the point [where] he knew that he would be in trouble, too. We got him fueled up and by then [the] posse had caught up with us. They had sheep wagons and I am sure you have [information] on how much [equipment] they had. [There] was quite a crew of people. MH: Yes, and all [of you were] looking for Wayne Gardner who had gone out to check on his [sheep] herd. DI: We got him fueled up and everyone headed out on the road. By then, we were down [to an area] where we could all travel along [fairly well]. We had built a little pond a year or two before this called the Overnight Pond [at Mustang Point]. I don’t even remember who [we built] it for. We built this pond overnight and it has had that name ever since. We set our camp up there. Wayne [Sims] and some of the others went on to Wayne Gardner’s camp. It was a mile or two up there. They got [an] old [sheep] herder out. His name [was] Ed Harrington. His name stuck with [me]. He didn’t have anything to eat, zero. [Laughter] MH: He was down to his shoelaces! DI: They took care of him. Whatever they did, I am sure they fed him. The next morning we went on [with] all the rest of the posse and got them up there. Then we spent a day or two in there building trails. They didn’t find him right at this time. We took our camp [and] I don’t know how many went with us. We went on over to [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” Waring’s place. “Slim” was there and he was perfectly fine. He had a whole cellar full of grub. His first comment [was], “What in the h-e-l-l are you doing over here?” [Laughter] He wasn’t even lonesome for company! MH: No, and to have that many people show up. DI: I don’t know how many [there were]. The posse didn’t go on over, it was just me and a few others. I am sure Lawrence was part of the group]. At this point, the machine had been running quite awhile. [We] dozed [cleared] off a place down to the dirt where we would change the oil and service [it]. How come I had a tape measure? I did. I measured the snow and it was four feet there on the level. MH: Was this at “Slim” Waring’s place? DI: [Yes], on a flat there out from “Slim’s.” There is a big flat out there in front of his house. [In] my memory there was four feet of snow right there on the level. MH: That is a lot of snow! Did it take you three days to get over to “Slim’s” place? DI: We came to [the] Overnight Pond and we stayed up there at Wayne’s camp several nights. It was three, four or five days before we got to “Slim’s.” [We] went over, I guess, to see if he was okay. He said, “What are you doing here?” We didn’t stay at “Slim’s” that long, probably stayed the night there [at] their camp. [We] came on back because [the] posse had plenty of trails and roads [where] they could hunt [for Wayne Gardner]. Where we went with the tractor after that, we plowed a trail in over to Roland Esplin to check his herd. He was one of the sheep [men] with us. I pulled his truck over. I don’t remember whether he came back with me or not. His [men] were perfectly alright. [We] got there just in time for dinner. [Laughter] There were two herders and then Roland and I showed up. They didn’t have to prepare [anything] else for dinner. We sat down and they had everything. I don’t remember whether Roland came back with me to this posse camp. Anyway, we came back there. I don’t remember how many more days we stayed there because the road over there, Main Street [Valley], was filled full of snow. [The snow] was blowing. We left and the road was kept open where the people associated with the posse [went] back and forth. A day or two after we left, they found [Wayne] Gardner. I wasn’t there. I know about where they found him because I had been over [the area] so many times. I understand they went out and built a monument. MH: Yes, they did put a little monument out there. DI: That is what I understand but I have never been back to that ridge since I drove off of it with the tractor when we left there. MH: You mentioned “Slim” Waring. Do you remember Bill Shanley? DI: I was around Bill some but not [very much]. MH: Was he as wild as everybody said? DI: I doubt it. I doubt it very much. Have you heard them talk about Jim King? He and Jim, to my understanding, were brothers. Maybe Bill was a little bit on the wild side. I don’t know. When I was around him it didn’t appear that way to me. But, then, everyone reads everyone a little bit different. I have heard some stories but like a lot of stories, people say if you tell a story [and] you can’t add to it a little bit you are not a good story teller! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] DI: There were rumors that there were things behind [earlier in his life] him and there could have been and there might not have been. Jim King didn’t have the flamboyant stories [told] about him that Bill did. There were several out on the [Arizona] Strip that had — MH: Who was the best cowboy out there? DI: Who was the best cowboy or who could tell the best story? [Laughter] “Old Man” Whipple (I am sure his name has come up) was a good story teller. He was my first cousin. I spent some time with [inaudible] nowhere near the younger brother. He would go with [inaudible] over to Grassy [Mountain]. I have been [very] close to Grassy, a time or two, but I was never [been there]. It is kind of a mean, mean country. I don’t know how many years [inaudible] was over there. But [inaudible] definitely liked to live the life of the cowboy. I was working over there for Roland Esplin digging a reservoir. This was back when I was working for Sims. Someone [inaudible] me and I don’t remember who it was. But I was in camp and heard something outside and here is [inaudible] on his horse. This is six, seven [or] eight miles from Grassy. He came in and I put on a pot of coffee. I asked him, “Do you want a drink of water?” [He said], “No, by God.” He had flamboyant speech! He said, “I don’t want any damn drink of water. I don’t want to get the habit.” [Laughter] You know, this is supposed to be the cowboy life. MH: [Laughter] [Do] you remember your first horse? DI: I wasn’t much of a horse person. The horse was a necessary evil to me. It was something that, when you did something [went somewhere], you got on a horse. Out there, we had a lot of horses because they dug reservoirs. We rode horses to school. We drove mules. We had a set of mules and they would pull the buggy to school. But no, as far as a first horse, they were just horses. MH: Do you remember your first truck? DI: Truck? Well, [that] gets away from the [Arizona] Strip. A set of wheels is a [very] nice thing to own. MH: Yes. DI: When I was working for Sims, one of the first [items] on my agenda [was] to get me a set of wheels and it wasn’t a truck! [Laughter] Right after [World] War [II] pickups were [fairly] hard to come by. As soon as I got a down payment [together], I bought me a Plymouth [car]. I didn’t keep it too long. Then I bought me a Pontiac [car]. I knew General Motors was going to go out of the car business! [Laughter] Cars were my weakness! There for a few years I bought wheels. I never bought any trucks until I went into business for myself and then I bought too many [trucks]! [Laughter] MH: How [did] you meet your wife? [Unable to locate his wife’s name.] DI: I was working up in Wyoming, still [working] for Sims. MH: Where about? [In Wyoming]? DI: [It was] out of Evanston, Wyoming and rodeo time was a-coming. I took time off to come to the rodeo. I had a practically brand new Pontiac sedan. I was twenty-one years old and I wanted a convertible. [I was] coming down from Evanston on [Highway] 89 and slipped through Manti [Sanpete County], Utah. There along side [of] the road in a showroom floor was a brand new convertible. Fifteen minutes later [laughter] I am [driving] down the road [in] a brand new convertible. I got here [St. George] and it is rodeo weekend. [I] ran into a couple of my buddies and we [were driving] around. One [of my buddies] had a date with a gal that I knew. Mary Jean Sorenson was her name. She said, “How would you like to pick up a girl tonight?” One thing led to another and I said, “Whatever.” So we stopped at these apartments. Soon [Mary Jean] is coming down the steps with this gal. That is how I met my wife! MH: Was she from St. George originally? DI: No. Her family is from your country, Tropic [Garfield County, Utah]. She was from, at the time, Springville [Utah County, Utah]. But her family is from Tropic, the Hatch and the Shakespeare [families]. She is half Shakespeare and half Hatch. Both of those families at that time were [very] stout in Tropic. MH: They still are! DI: I am sure they still are. This was in September [and] six months later she was an Iverson. MH: And your convertible days were over! DI: That stinking convertible; a few years went by and then it wore out. This past summer I had a daughter that turned fifty years old up in Idaho. They wanted us to come up to help celebrate her birthday. We [went] to [the] birthday party [that] one daughter of hers had put together. [We] were going to go to [the place where the] party was and she said, “No, I have a ride coming for you.” I figured the daughter had a local limousine showing up for her. Finally, she called her mom [and said], “The ride [for] you and dad is here.” I thought I would go out just for curiosity [and] here sits a Pontiac convertible! MH: [Laughter] Oh boy! DI: It was two years newer than [the] one that I had. Holy mackerel! [Inaudible] grandma got in the [inaudible] convertible. [Laughter] So that is the story of how I met my wife. MH: Did you take her back out to Diamond View [on the Arizona Strip]? DI: She has been out there a few times. She has never been too enthused about the [Arizona] Strip. She has been out there quite a few times. But she is not strip-oriented like a lot of other people. MH: What breed of cattle did you run? DI: Herefords. Is there any other kind? MH: [Laughter] [If] you talked to the Atkins, they might tell you differently! DI: Atkins have had a lot of Herefords. They have [had] quite a few different breeds. [The] Black Angus [breed] has done wonders for the beef industry. But, as far as I am concerned, as long as it has a white face, it is red and it eats, [it is] good enough — MH: Where did you sell? Did you haul your calves into St. George to sell them or bring your buyer out [to your ranch]? DI: For years, there would be different ones [who] would come out there and buy the calves. The cow buyers would show up and they shipped [the cattle] to wherever. I was kind of gone from there [and] doing other things after I [was] married. My dad lined [trucks] up and hauled [the cattle] to market [in] Los Angeles [California] a time or two. [There] was [an] auction in Cedar [City, Iron County, Utah], when it [was] active, that made it a little more handy for [the] different feeders here in town. Evan Woodbury [was] feeding a few [cattle]. That made it handy to bring [the cattle] in and sell to [Woodbury] and [Brent] Atkins. Brent was doing a [very] fine job, an excellent job, and we sold to him. Now we haul [the cattle] to Cedar [City] and [use] internet television [video] [for] buying now. If a [fellow] could get a little more oriented [to the process], that is a good market. [It] has been a good market for cows. MH: What was your brand? DI: It was the A-Bar-Z. MH: Are you still using that [brand] today? DI: Yes, we still use the A-Bar-Z. It has been with the ranch ever since my dad [purchased] it. [How] he came to [use] that brand, I have no idea. He bought whatever holdings [he had from] Brooks Hale. There never was anything that I know of, [about] him buying [the brand] from him. His brand was the Walking X. He would be a [very] interesting person to know about. MH: I imagine he would have some stories. DI: But a [fellow] waited a couple of years too long for that. MH: Was the saw mill going at Parashaunt when you were growing up? DI: It was, but [I cannot] remember the names of those people [who] were out there. I have been to [that saw mill] when I was working. I did quite a lot of work for “Slim” Waring out there. I am sure Reed Mathis could remember the names of [the] places where the saw mills were and how much lumber [was] brought out of Parashaunt. I don’t think [it was] as much as [was taken] off of Mt. Trumbull. MH: No, they had a bigger operation on [Mt.] Trumbull. Did you ever get down to [the] Grand Gulch Mine [on the Arizona Strip]? DI: Grand Gulch [Mine] ─ is that where we built a road? MH: A road was built down Pigeon Canyon to the Grand Gulch Mine. DI: Yes. Another fellow and I were working together [for] a company from New York, Western Golden Uranium. They were going to build a road into the Grand Gulch [Mine]. We went out and started down Pigeon Canyon and I stayed there until we got right to the bottom. They were a big enough company [that] they had holdings over on the other side of the [Colorado] River. This mine was called the Ridenour [Mine and was in Coconino County, Arizona]. Have you heard of that name? MH: Yes, [it] is on the south side of the [Grand] Canyon. DI: I left there and spent probably a year plus over on the other side. They didn’t only go into [the] Ridenour. We came down another canyon straight across from the valley of Toroweap, whatever that canyon is called. [Vulcans Throne]. We came down right near to the [Colorado] River’s edge and then went back up to some claims they had there for uranium. Whether they ever developed any of that [ore] — MH: [When] would that have been? In the 1950s? DI: [It] was in 1956 and 1957 [that] I was in there. [I had] another new pickup. [Laughter] [I] wore those pickups out! I did a lot of traveling. When you asked about a pickup, yes, I bought another pickup down there. MH: [Do] you still take some of your friends and family out to Tuweep? DI: Occasionally. There is a [lot of] interest in that country. It is amazing and [of] the ones I have taken out, some say it has been the best trip [they] have ever been on in [their] life, regardless of where they have been. I don’t know if they go anyplace! [Laughter] MH: I asked you earlier on and I am going to ask you again. What is it about the Arizona Strip that keeps the people who are involved out there so interested in it? They all come back. DI: I was raised at Diamond Butte [at Russell Spring]. As far as the rest of the [Arizona] Strip, I have never had any big interest [to] go wandering around it other than [at] Diamond Butte and at the Hurricane Falls. Though I wasn’t born there, I was only a few months old when I [came] there and I [stayed] until I left to go to high school in [St. George]. I don’t know what fascinates the rest of the people other than going out to the [Grand] Canyon. If you can get out to the canyon you can spend endless [hours] out there. The canyon is fascinating. I don’t care whether it is [on] the [Arizona] Strip side or the [south] side. When I was over at Ridenour [Mine] I had some people working for me. After we would get timed out, [we] spent endless hours down in those canyons, wandering around trying to find a mountain sheep or goat. That side of the canyon is on [the] Hualapai [Indian] Reservation [in Peach Springs Canyon]. Now you talk about some fabulous country! You go from the ponderosa pine [trees] right down into the, well, the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument is not there on the reservation. MH: No, the monument is across the river. DI: You have to step down [to] get across! MH: Now that they have made it a monument out there, what do you think they ought to do with it? DI: I think that they ought to build a good road out there. MH: You think they ought to put a road out there? DI: I do. To have a monument out there, [they ought] to have some good access roads out there, a [road that] is oiled, maintained and take care of. MH: Do you think they ought to stop the grazing? DI: That is an odd thing to ask someone with [ranching as] a hobby. MH: I know! DI: It would be just like the fires in California, the fires they have down in Arizona and different places. That [Arizona] Strip can graze off and get to looking as tough and mean as anything that you can imagine. Water is a magic deal. [You] are a Tropicite! They could put mustangs or buffalo out there to eat it off. MH: Tony Heaton tried that [and] it didn’t work too well. DI: [Laughter] But as far as the grazing, if you are going to run cattle for a profit you are not going to overgraze your ranch. [For our] little hobby, we have some BLM [Bureau of Land Management] leases on it. But, hey, if you are going to run an animal for a profit, you are going to [want to] see him. Atkin, Esplin and I haven’t been on the other top country. In order to get ready for grazing ─ unless they could come with some other way, we have the fire engines and fire fighters. There is more money generated through organizations like that, by far, than there is [in] the cattle industry. As far as the economy, spending and making money, there is [much] more money generated. That comes out of the good old taxpayer’s pocket. That is becoming more and more the American way to do things like this. MH: Sometimes you wonder just what [people] are thinking when they do some of [these things]. DI: To do away with the grazing, I know that I am probably in a very flat minority on this, but if they do away with that, you do away with something else. Soon it becomes a sanctuary [where] no one can get involved. A question like that you [shouldn’t] ask me! [Laughter] MH: Ask a rancher. DI: Mine is strictly a hobby. What few [cattle I have] out there is just strictly a little hobby. To run all the Esplins or the Atkins or the Heatons out of there, to me this is the best [way] of controlling it there is. But it [would need to] come to a higher density situation and [have] enough water out there to put enough people on it to handle it. MH: You have been a good interview. I appreciate it. [END OF TAPE]
Grace Shumway Mathis | Oral History
Grace (Shumway) Mathis was interviewed on February 21, 2006, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. She related her experiences living on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
GM: That was in 1935. MH: In 1935? Holy cow! GM: We have lived here [St. George] ever since and I am not moving either! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] Tell [about] the first time you saw the Pine [Spring] Ranch. GM: Lillian [(Mathis) Andrus], [Reed’s] sister [was] my age — Reed [Miles Mathis] was five years older than I — Lillian, and her husband [Garth Andrus] and I went out. They took me out for the first time and we stayed, maybe, five days and Reed came [back] in with us. That was not the first summer, I don’t believe; that was the second summer. After that, he would take me out when they would start branding so I could cook for them. MH: What was your first impression when you got out there? GM: I thought it was beautiful. But I didn’t like living there the first summer. MH: Why didn’t you like living there? GM: It was so lonesome. I don’t know why, heavens, I wasn’t a city [girl]! My dad had cattle out [in] Kanab [Kane County, Utah] and he had a little ranch over [in] Johnson [Wash]. [Reed and I] were from the same background but I had never ridden a horse. MH: If you were out there, you had to learn to ride a horse. GM: Yes, I did and I loved it. I wasn’t a good rider. MH: Did Reed always have good horses? GM: Always, and a lot of them! He had a [inaudible] horse, and my [children] loved it out there. “Wally” [Wallace Mathis] loved it out there; so did Barbara [Mathis]. MH: Yes, just like Reed, you can’t get [“Wally”] back to St. George. GM: No. Our daughter, Barbara, was a good rider. [The] first time that Reed put her on a horse, he said, “My gosh! She rides that [horse] like she is supposed to. And then, there is you!” [Laughter] But, I liked it; [and] I learned to ride a little. I wouldn’t be a rodeo queen! I loved it out there! MH: What was it like? You had to take everything you were going to eat from St. George [with you] when you went out there. GM: Yes. MH: No refrigeration? GM: We had a gas refrigerator. MH: [Did] you have a propane refrigerator? GM: Not the first years, but we still had one over at the old house over here. We had a gas refrigerator in the front room. MH: Talk about that house. Was that house always in that location? GM: [It has been] ever since I was there. MH: Okay. GM: I think the story is that two rooms [of] the house were over by Lake Flat. A man lived out there [who] helped the Mathis — what was his name? He lived there for a long time. I don’t know his name; it will come to me. Anyway, they put [the two rooms] on skids and dragged it over and put it next to the hill. MH: Then you [folks] added on to it over the years? GM: Yes, [we] did. MH: Was there ever a spring up behind that house that you could ride up to? GM: Yes. We [would] go through the corrals and up that little canyon a lot of times. We had a little red wagon out there. The Shelleys had lived out there in the summertime. They had children [who] left the little red wagon out there. I always went out with Blanche [(Mathis) McComb)], Reed’s sister, that first year. She loved it out there so we would stay a month at a time. We would make sandwiches [and] go [out] in the evenings [with] our [children]. I had “Wally” and she had Kent; they are the same age. We would go up [to the spring] and have our little picnic and come back. [It was] the best water. We would always bring a bucket of water back to drink. The well had [very] good water in it too. MH: When did you dig the well? GM: [The well] was [dug] long before I got there. That [would be] before 1933. MH: Was the well dug? It wasn’t drilled? GM: Yes, it was dug. But it had [very] good water. MH: Who put the windmill on it? GM: I don’t know. MH: It was there when you got there. GM: It was there when I [came]. If you will look at that picture in there, it was a good, well-kept place. Reed always kept up the barns, the house and everything [very] well. That is what makes me sick about this business. MH: As an aside, we may want to talk about that. When they [are] ready to go in and restore that, they may want to talk to you to try and make it as accurate as they can. GM: Yes. MH: That will be in the next year or so. What was the drive from St. George out to the ranch like? GM: I hated that! [Laughter] We would go out to Mt. Trumbull. MH: You [went] over Mt. Trumbull? GM: Yes. We would go out there and have our breakfast the first morning. We would leave here around 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning. MH: [Did you] go over towards Pipe Spring and then into Mt. Trumbull? GM: No. Just right out south [of] here. MH: Oh, you would go out Quail Canyon, past Wolf Hole and out to Mt. Trumbull by the schoolhouse. GM: Yes. Then, just past Bundys, we would turn off at the schoolhouse [and] go on. We would have our breakfast; then we would get to the ranch. We had to cross that dang wash twenty-seven times! Now, you don’t cross it at all, do you? MH: No. You actually turn before you get to Mt. Trumbull [inaudible]. GM: Little babies hitting your head. That was the worst part of [it] all. [Laughter]. We would get to the ranch and just relax and have a good time. Blanche made bread. I never did bake bread out there. We took bread out [with us]. I wasn’t [a] bread maker. But Blanche would make bread. We had a [very] good time and we ate [well]. I was thinking the other night [about] what we ate. We had cake mixes [then]. I knew how to make cakes anyway. I could do cakes! We had quite a bit of beef out there. MH: Reed’s father [Wallace “Wally” Brigham Mathis] first [owned] the ranch, didn’t he? GM: Yes. I think the story goes that he was out [at] the mine. MH: The Grand Gulch Mine? GM: Yes. We would take our friends down there and they loved it. We would spend half a day down there. MH: At the Grand Gulch Mine? GM: Yes. MH: Was it still [operating]? GM: Yes, when I first married. It didn’t last very long, though. I went down once while there were people living there. I don’t know when it stopped [operation]. MH: Can you remember anything about it? What was it like down there? GM: Have you been there? MH: Yes, ma’am. GM: Was [the] place where they ate still there? MH: Yes, the bunkhouse [and] the big dining hall is still there. The chimney for the refinery is still there. GM: Yes, those big holes where they mined. You could see where they had houses all around [the area]. MH: They had tent cabins out there. GM: Yes, we would take our friends down there, spend a few hours and come back. The first time we went down there, I think it took us half a day to get down there. [Laughter] But they started to grade the roads and it [was] nicer. The roads [are] so much nicer now. It takes our [children] two hours to get out there, but it took Reed and me three [hours]. MH: It took me a little more than two hours to get out there last week. What kind of vehicles did you have? GM: Reed always drove a good car [and] a good truck. He always put new tires — four-ply, is that [what] you put on those trucks — before he ever took it out there. I only remember, in our later years, of having just one of our tires go flat coming in [to St. George]. MH: That has to be some sort of a record! GM: That is something. MH: Or you were a careful driver! GM: I didn’t drive out there, Reed did [that]. He wasn’t a fast driver out there. MH: Who were your neighbors out there? GM: We had good neighbors. [Fernard LeMoyne] “Buster” and Lola Dawn [(Swapp) Esplin] and their children. Gene McAllister lived out there. He worked for [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” [Waring]. MH: He worked for “Slim” Waring? GM: Yes, and he worked for “Buster” too. MH: Did you ever know “Doc” Norris Brown? GM: I knew “Doc” Norris [in] Kanab and I knew him out [on the Arizona Strip] too. We used to invite “Doc” Norris [but] Jean never would come to our house [nor] have anything to do with us. MH: Oh? GM: You know, [come] for dinner or anything like that. “Buster” came over all the time if he was [out] there alone. I was always tickled to see him riding through the fields coming over for lunch. Then he would go back afterwards. His [children played] with our two children. We had a [place] out in front of our house where we would have our picnics [and] wiener roasts. [It was] right down where Amy Sorenson lived out there. Amy would be a good one for you to [interview]. Do you know Amy Sorenson? MH: You will have to write that name down. GM: She lives up [in] Enterprise [Washington County, Utah] now. MH: No, [I don’t know her]. Her name is Amy Sorenson? GM: She married a Sorenson. Bill Sorenson and his wife lived out there [and] worked for Reed for two or three summers. So did Amy’s husband. Amy lived out [at] the ranch with her little [children] every summer for awhile. She lives somewhere up [in] Enterprise. She has been to see me three or four times. MH: [What] was her husband’s name? GM: Amy’s husband was — you know, all my life I couldn’t remember names and I didn’t care. I could remember places, but I couldn’t remember names! [Laughter] MH: I was just wondering how she would be listed in the telephone book. GM: I don’t know. I don’t think there are too many Sorensons up there. MH: No, in Enterprise, there probably isn’t. GM: I don’t think so. She has a son [who] lives up there, but they don’t live together. I only met the son. I think she loved it out there, too. MH: She worked for Reed? GM: Her husband did for two or three summers. MH: Yes. GM: But she would be a good one [to interview]. She could tell you just how it was. She liked it then. MH: Let me run a name by you. Luther Swanner, did you ever know him? GM: No, but I have heard of him. MH: He was a cowboy [and] won the all-around cowboy championship back in 1919. GM: Yes. He was quite a [bit] before my day, but I have heard stories about him. MH: [Tell] about “Slim” and Mary [(Osburn)Waring]. Describe them. Was “Slim” tall [or] short? GM: “Slim” was a good-looking [fellow]. They lived over [at] Horse Valley at first. Then Mary built a house down at Wildcat. She had a flushing toilet, like we did [at] our new house. [Laughter] That was the main thing and [a] shower. Oh, I got my shower! MH: Did you get your shower? GM: Yes. I don’t know if that house was there [then]. It was built around the time that we were married. They were older than us, but they were [very] good neighbors. They would have lunch with us and we would go over to their place. I don’t think we ever had lunch [at] their house, but always dessert. I would ride over there with the two [children]. She and “Slim” would come to our house quite a bit. I think she loved Horse Valley more than she did [the ranch at Wildcat]. “Buster” lived at House [Rock] Valley and his family. They were the ones [who] would come over when our friends would come out [and] we would always have wiener roasts out by the well. We would send “Wally” over to tell the Esplins to come. They remember [that]. “Buster’s” son is always telling me about all those good wiener roasts we had over [at] our ranch. [Laughter] Little [children] out there don’t get to do those kinds of things. We always had company on the Fourth of July, or the Twenty-fourth [of July]. Unless we came to town [St. George], somebody would come out [to the ranch]. MH: [Did] you spend the summers out there? GM: Yes, we came in [to St. George] a lot, though. MH: Did Reed spend the winters out there? GM: No. He would try to come in before it snowed. [At that time] it used to snow early. He was always in [town] for Thanksgiving. He tells about coming in one year when it was so cold. He stopped at Wolf Hole. There was a store at Wolf Hole and [some small] cabins. MH: There used to be a store at Wolf Hole. GM: He [rented] a cabin and stayed overnight because it was so cold [and] came in the next morning. This was in about 1928. MH: What was the most fun you ever had out there? GM: [Laughter] I don’t know, we have had so much — I wouldn’t dare tell you some of the fun things we did! Yes, I dare! It wasn’t bad. We had our friends, Ina and Darrell Bracken, Emma and Henry Crosby, and Laree and “Blondie” Porter [come out to the ranch]. “Blondie” and Laree wouldn’t come out [very often]. One time he came out and sat on the front porch. He said, “My hell, Grace. If I had known it was this pretty and so much fun out here, I would have been out here every time.” He had been out to Bundyville and he didn’t know he was in the ponderosas. We took him out to the Grand Canyon [National Park]. That was one [place] we would [go] over old rough roads. It was only about ten miles, but [the roads] were so rough and bumpy. [Laughter] We would go out there and spend a lot of time out on the [north] rim of the [Grand] Canyon. One time we had been someplace and Ina said, “I am not going to get in your damn tub Grace, but I want a bath.” [Laughter] I said, “Okay. Aunt Blanche, when she is here, goes in [the] back bedroom and takes a little pan of water. I don’t know what she does in there, but you go in there and take your little pan of water, your soap and you have your little spit bath.” So she did. There was only little, tiny windows in that back bedroom. Emma said, “Let’s go see how she is doing.” So we started looking through the little back windows. This is [something] we did all the time. She took off her shirt and she rubbed. Finally, she took off her brassiere and here came Reed. [He] said, “What are you doing?” I said, “We are watching Ina have a bath.” He started to look in [and] just then, she looked up. “You damn [people]!” We had a lot of fun like that! All the time! MH: Has she ever forgiven you? GM: Yes! One Fourth of July they were out there. Reed had [some] bird seeds. I don’t know what they were because I didn’t pay that much attention. He would put them on a rope and take them down to the field. There were so many sparrows [to] eat [the] birdseed. He would take [the seeds] down there and [the birds would fly] off. He would put some kind of — what are those things you [set] off on the Fourth of July? MH: Firecrackers? GM: Yes, I guess they were firecrackers. Anyway, he put them so far apart and hung them in tree. Garth was kind of spooky out there; he didn’t like it too much. He had heard all these terrible stories about the ranch. So he [Reed] went out and put [the string] in the back tree and came around. We were all sitting around on [the] big front porch, laughing and talking, and having fun. Finally, a gun [firecracker] went off [in] the backyard. Garth said, “Did you hear that?” Reed said, “What?” Then it went off again. [Laughter] And it went off again. Then, everybody got excited. “What is that back there?” I remember “Blondie” and Pat went around to see what Reed had. They said, “We will make Garth feel —.” But it was kind of spooky; [and] about 10:00 at night. MH: [Inaudible] GM: Yes. But we did things like that all the time. MH: What was the worst thing that ever happened to you out there? GM: Worst thing? Reed, being a cowboy as long as he was, when he was five years old he went out to the ranch. His mother [Hannah Miranda “Minnie (Miles) Mathis] said she cried all the time he was out there [and] prayed [that] dad would take good care of him. He loved it! Then he would go out and stay with the people [who] ran the ranch. He didn’t care who ran it, he would go out and stay. They all loved him. Mrs. Sturtzenegger told me how she liked having Reed come over on his horse. They [lived] over around Oak Grove. MH: They were over past Oak Grove. GM: Yes. They had a house [there]. MH: Did she have a son named Gene [Sturtzenegger]? GM: Have you been down to Gene’s [place]? MH: You didn’t tell me what the worst thing that ever happened to you. GM: I was trying to tell you, nothing “worst” happened. I just loved it out there! MH: Nobody got sick or hurt? GM: [Laughter] We had some friends out there, thank goodness! They were our neighbors, the Graffs. They were talking about this [incident] the other day. We never had an arm broken or anything like that. All the time Reed was out on the ranch, he never had a broken arm. MH: [Not from] all the wild cattle he roped? [Or] all the fires he fought? GM: And he has [been] thrown off the horse. MH: Yes. GM: One day, “Gar” came in; “Gar” and “Lil”, his sister Lillian and her husband — and he was still shaking. He said, “That damn Reed! He fell right over his head. His horse went down and he fell right over his head. He got up and I said to Reed, ‘I bet you have had a lot of those kinds of accidents. You haven’t told anybody about them.’” He said, “I’m just lucky; I have never had a broken toe, even out here.” MH: Wow! GM: We would go on picnics and watch the sunsets out there – so gorgeous. When we were first out there, I would want our little [children] to enjoy the sunsets. We would get in the truck [and] go over to Lake Flat, just looking over towards our place; the sunsets were so beautiful. We used to take that old wagon and go down to Oak Grove [and] places like that, just for the fun of it. This time “Wally” was playing. Clyde brought his boys down there and they were playing on that dang wagon. When the tongue comes up [it is] old dirty, rusty iron. He still has the scar. It is right here on his wrist. It was [odd that] it didn’t cut one of those veins there, it [was] cut [very] deep. MH: It didn’t [cut] a tendon or a bone? GM: No. I said, “We have to go to town.” It frightened me to death. Clyde said, “I don’t think so. Have you [any] alcohol?” I said, “Yes!” He said, “Don’t tell him, we will put some on it. Then we will wrap it.” Can you imagine? I felt so sorry for him. MH: Was this Reed who cut himself? GM: No, “Wally.” He was about ten [or] twelve [years old]. MH: I bet he cried like a son-of-a-gun! GM: He ran all over [the] ranch — down to the barns [and] back. I felt so sorry for him. But we had gauze and [everything] out there. MH: I bet you had to disinfect it. GM: Yes. We had [some] mentholatum. We didn’t have anything else — well, there wasn’t anything else in those days. MH: [Did] anyone get sick out there? GM: Somebody died out there. [It was] somebody who worked for Reed, but that was long before my day. I think he had some kind of spell, I don’t know, and Reed brought him in. He didn’t like that. He felt bad about that all the time. His mother worked in the hospital. [They were] such nice people [and] were [very] cute. They lived down by grandma. That was the only terrible [event] that happened out there that I know about. My [children] rode horses. Barbara loved to ride a horse. She would go and brand [cattle] with her dad. She would bring him the branding irons [and] she would get paid for it. Then she would come [to St. George] and buy her winter clothes. She thought she was [very] smart. [Neither] of them [were] ever bucked off, that I know of, only Reed! MH: Was the fellow who taught Reed to rope? [Was] Ratcliff, still around when you — GM: Ratcliff? Yes, he lived [out] there. Andy Ratcliff [was] her husband. Reed loved Andy Ratcliff. MH: Did you ever meet him? GM: No, but I did her [his wife]. MH: What was she like? GM: They were building the Boulder Dam. We would go down to [Las] Vegas [Nevada] all the time to see how it was coming along. [Reed] knew that Andy Ratcliff just loved her [his wife]. [Reed] said she raised him. I guess he settled the ranch for Grandpa [Mathis]. He lived on the ranch. When they would come to town, they would go to their place to stay. They lived up in Oregon or someplace. They came here for the summer and lived in a campground over [in] Washington [City, Washington County, Utah] and I met them there. I did too meet him, because he was here that one winter. He had bad health, but I can’t remember too much what he looked like. She was quite a pretty lady and liked the hot weather. She liked St. George and so did he. I guess he died right after he went back [to Oregon] after he [had been here that] winter. She came back and was [living] in [Las] Vegas. [Reed] knew she was down there working in one of the hotels, making beds. [Reed] and I went down. She was so tickled to see “my little Reed”, and he was so tickled to see her. MH: Did they ever have any children? GM: I don’t think they had any children. I never did meet them. But they knew Reed. He or “Wally” probably told you, but I always thought that Grandpa [Mathis] started taking a few calves out to the mine. Didn’t he take the mail and the groceries out? Then somebody said, “Go up on the hill, up to Pine [Spring].” MH: Yes. GM: Because that was a good place to raise some [cattle]. That is how he, Carl [Mathis], settled. [Carl was a brother to Reed Mathis.] MH: [Inaudible] round up. GM: Yes. MH: [He] took a couple calves out to graze while he was going back and forth to the mine. GM: Yes. MH: They said, “Move them up to Pine [Spring],” and that is how — GM: Yes. Every time he went out he would take a few calves out in the buggy or the wagon. [Laughter] MH: What happened when you wound-up back in St. George with the [children] in school? Were they always chomping at the bit to go back out to the ranch? GM: They always were tickled to death [to return to the ranch], especially “Wally.” Barbara did too. When she [was] a teenager, it was kind of lonesome out there for her, so we would let her take a friend but they would get lonesome, too, out there. I never did get very lonesome after the first five years or so [that] I was out there. MH: [Laughter] GM: I was just tickled to get out there! I would do a lot of needlepoint and a lot of fancy work. I would make a lot of quilts. I was just having a good time, the whole time I was there. MH: You were the hostess. GM: Yes. You could make a pot of beans with a lot of ham in it; they would eat it all week [and] liked it! They would think they had a [very] good dinner. Put [out] a piece of cake [and] a salad [with it]! [Laughter] MH: Secrets of the cook! GM: Yes. [And] we had beef steak and potatoes [with] gravy. MH: Did you ever [plant] a garden out there? GM: I didn’t, but Amy Sorenson did. Amy’s in-laws [Bill Sorenson and his wife] were older people [and] they lived out there. Amy’s husband was their son and he worked for Reed while the dad was [there]. When Amy went out, she [planted] a beautiful garden down by the well. Reed fenced it in for her. She had cabbage; I’d never seen such [heads]. Reed would bring me cabbage for coleslaw. [The] carrots [were] bigger than I had ever seen. She loved [the garden]. For two years, she had a beautiful garden out there. No, I didn’t [ever plant a garden]. MH: Did the deer get in and eat [the plants] up? GM: They had [a] wire fence around it, but I think the deer still got in there. They had pretty deer out there [with] great big horns. They still do. MH: Was the growing season long enough? GM: The main thing our friends liked to do was go spotlighting [animals] at night. MH: [Laughter] GM: We would go down to Kelly [Point], that is just below the — MH: It is a ways out there, yes. GM: That was just down below our house [about] two or three miles over at Lake Flat. But Kelly [Point] seemed to have the great big horned deer. Our friend, Darrell Bracken, was a deer hunter. He couldn’t believe that [the deer horns] could be that big. He was born and raised up [in] Pine Valley [Washington County, Utah]. We [would] wait until about 10:00 [p. m.] at night to go spotlighting. We would go down spotlighting when we had friends [out to the ranch]. [Sometimes] Reed and I would go spotlighting, we [liked] it too. When we were out there alone we always left the front porch light on. We had a motor that [provided] lights. We had a gas refrigerator [and] gas lights. MH: Hang that deer up in the back, on the shady side. GM: A lot of times Reed and I would go down in Kelly [Point] and see the prettiest deer. There for a while, [deer] were all over the place. And then, here came all those deer hunters out there one year. It was [featured] in [a] sport magazine back east. They kind of thinned [the deer] out, but they are back there now. They were two years ago when I was out there and we went spotlighting. My [children] love to spotlight! MH: Don’t say that! GM: They do, but they don’t kill anything! [Laughter] MH: Alright, [they are] just looking for them. GM: We never have killed [any deer]. Reed and I never brought a [deer] across the line. I don’t like venison. I [fix] jerky venison, but I don’t eat venison. I believe that was the old cot back there. [Looking at a picture] MH: That could well be. There was a cot on the porch. GM: That is it. We had a bed [laughter] — I will tell you this [story]. Ina and Darrell, Henry and Emma were all out there. We drew where they were all going to sleep. One [person] had to sleep out on the front porch. MH: Did you draw lots? GM: One had to sleep in the front room on the cot, one had to sleep in Aunt Blanche’s bedroom, but Reed wouldn’t give up his bed for nobody! So “Em” and “Hen” [Emma and Henry Crosby] were sleeping outside, and the moon was coming up that night. There was [a] great big moon coming up. MH: Great, big yellow moon. GM: We coaxed them, “Please.” We played cards for a little while then, you know men — “we are going to bed.” So they all went to bed. It was kind of cold; we had a fire in the kitchen and a fire in the fireplace, just a little one, not too [big]. I guess it was in the fall of the year. But we wanted to watch that big harvest moon come up. You could sit on [the] front porch [or] go out in our yard and watch it come up through the pines. Those silly old men wouldn’t stay up long enough to see [it]! Here came Reed; dancing [and] holding up his pajama pants like this [with] his hand over his head. He danced over to the fireplace, danced back [and] didn’t say one word. Things like that happened all the time! Then we all washed our feet in the basin because they wouldn’t use my bathtub outside! [Laughter] Emma Crosby was the giggliest and the cutest friend you could ever have. So she jumps up, washes her feet and tiptoes over to her bed outside, right here on the porch. [Then] we hear this big scream and Reed jumps out of bed. “Em” has gone to bed [and] put her feet right into “Hen’s” stomach! He gives her a kick and she lands over in front of our bedroom door! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] GM: She didn’t [break] a bone. I said, “Are you hurt?” That was the first thing out of [my mouth]. She was giggling so dang hard! We didn’t go to bed until 1:00 [a. m.]. They were the dangest [friends]. [Laughter] Ina wants to go back out there so badly. Her husband is gone. Emma and Henry are gone. “Blondie” and Laree are gone. Just Ina and I are left. I don’t believe I could take it, but she wants to go back [to the ranch]. MH: I think you are up to it. GM: I don’t know. I get so tired. “Blondie” was the cop [Utah Highway Patrolman] here in this town. Did you ever know him? MH: No, I don’t believe I did. GM: He was on the road. MH: You [mentioned] a little playhouse behind the cabin. GM: Yes. MH: Who built that, and for whom? GM: Reed [built it] for our [children]. MH: Was [it] just behind the cabin? Up the hill a little ways? GM: No, [it was] between [there] and the outside privy; right up the walk. MH: I wonder if there is anything left of it. GM: I don’t know. There was quite a bit [of it] when I left there. But people have gone out there and taken [things]. I took [something] off [that is] right over there. I brought [it] in from right over there, a wood [item]. Reed said, “If you start that, then everybody else will come in [and take something].” And they have; I can see a lot of boards [are] gone. The windows are all gone. MH: Let me ask you a question. Have you some pictures of it when you were using it? GM: Yes. MH: Maybe if they try to reconstruct and rehabilitate [the ranch], they may want to see pictures so they [would] know what it looked like. GM: There is one [picture] if you want to see it. MH: We will get with “Wally” and work on that. GM: Yes, there is one [picture] in there that is [very] good. [It was taken] when I first went out [there]. MH: [While] you were out there, was anybody doing any logging down around Green Spring and “Slim’s” place [or] out that way? GM: Yes. The people from the polygamist [groups in Colorado City, Arizona and Hildale, Washington County, Utah] were out there. MH: Was that Ben Bistline and [his] group? GM: Yes. MH: Did you ever run into [them]? GM: Yes, they came over and got water. [Very] nice people; I loved them. MH: I interviewed Ben last week. GM: Did you? MH: Were you out there when the saw mill burned down? GM: Yes, I was out there that whole summer. MH: What do you remember about that? GM: I remember that they had come over to our place to get drinking water out of the well, and they were [very] nice people. I remember that we could see the saw mill [and] it was busy all the time. We could see the road for about two minutes between the ponderosas, so we knew when somebody went over there [as] we could see them. [One] Sunday, I guess [Ben] told you, they left two [boys] out there to watch the saw mill and they went down to the [Colorado] River. Somebody came over and told us that the saw mill had burned down. “Buster” or somebody came over to our house. We went over and they had taken a lot of [items]. But their cabins where they slept were still there. I guess they still are, aren’t they? MH: No, they are gone now. GM: Are they? MH: Yes. GM: I feel terrible [and] sad. Because they were quite happy out there. Were they there two summers? I think they were. MH: Yes, I believe they were. GM: I think they were, too. MH: That was a long way to haul logs. GM: It was! MH: Or even timber, if you cut it into lumber, it is a long way down. GM: Yes, it is. It was on the way over to “Slim’s”. We would go to “Slim’s” [and] then go down to where they were [milling] the logs. MH: Yes. Do you remember the Snyders? GM: Yes. MH: Describe Afton Snyder. GM: His wife and I were [very] good friends. Laura was her name. She had all these cute little [children]. I didn’t know Afton that well. But she was so cute, I loved her. She was lonesome out there. She would bring all these cute little [children]. Her oldest little girl was beautiful. She had pretty auburn hair. She is still alive; I see her every once in awhile. She doesn’t live here. Laura was so cute. Blanche and I would get in [the] old truck and go down [to their place]. We wouldn’t go down Main Street [Valley]; we would go behind [inaudible]. We [would go down over [the] hill where the saw mill people brought [the logs] out and it was [so] bumpy. I would drive it and away we would go! She was so tickled to see us. She would always try to give us vegetables. She had a good vegetable garden. We would always come home with carrots. One time she said, “You just excuse me a few minutes and listen to the radio.” And — no, “do something.” She couldn’t have a radio. Anyway, here she came in with two chickens, all plucked and cleaned. MH: Wow! GM: I don’t know how she did it in the half-hour she was gone. MH: [Laughter] GM: We took [them] and had the best dinner you can imagine the next day. We had [a] fried chicken dinner. I remember we had [chicken] for two or three days! She was just like that. She would come up to our place. I can remember taking oranges out to the old cellar behind our house in those wood crates. Do you remember those wooden [crates]? MH: Yes, I remember orange crates. GM: We would take a full [crate of oranges] out when we went out, and it would stay all summer down in that [cellar]. MH: Do you think that cellar is still back there? GM: It fell in, but somebody said it looked like someone had dug it out again. The last year I was out there, I thought it looked like it had caved in. Ken and — I have his telephone number there. Oh, he loved that ranch. MH: What year was [it] when you took him out? GM: [It was] about ten years ago. We were just going to run out and [come] right back. We went down to the [Colorado] River, we went over to Snyders, we went everyplace. We [arrived] home at 12:00 [midnight]. MH: When you say you went down to the river, did you go down past Grand Gulch Mine and down to [the north rim of the] Grand Canyon? GM: No, we don’t go down that way. We go down to “Slim’s” and then take a road off, not Horse Valley [but], down to where the house is. MH: [Inaudible] GM: What is that [area] called? [The] big house just before you start going up the hill to [the] Mathis [Ranch]? Is it called Wildcat? MH: Yes, Wildcat. GM: Yes, you go to Wildcat and then you go off towards — I don’t know where you go off towards [but] I could take you there! MH: Off towards [inaudible] and down that way? Did you come out at Grand Wash? GM: No. You don’t come out of anything. You just go over bumpy roads to the [Grand] Canyon, south. MH: And it goes right down to the [Colorado] River? GM: No, [but] you can see the river. MH: That’s it, you were on the overlook at Twin [Creek]. GM: Yes. We were over there someplace. MH: Or Snap [Canyon], out that way, maybe? GM: We went out on Twin [Creek]. Now [do] you see? MH: I didn’t know how you were getting down to the [Colorado] River. GM: No, we didn’t get down to the river. That was where the cattle go off, at Twin [Creek] for [the] winter. I saw where the trail went off. But we were talking [about] the Snyders. MH: Yes, we were talking about the Snyders. They lived sort of a simple life out there. GM: Yes, they did. She would come up and spend the day with me. I was talking about [the] oranges. Her little [children] would have the most fun. I would let them go down [and get an orange]. Anything, [like] milk, would stay there for two or three days. Sometimes, if it was cool enough weather, I could set Jell-O. We would set Jell-O in a bucket and put it down the well. By noon it would be all set up. That was [how] cold [the] water was. We would set it in cold water in one of those buckets. MH: What year was it that Reed finally sold the ranch and you built your house [here]? GM: I don’t know. I really don’t know. I was going to say late 1960s, but I don’t know. MH: When was the last time you were out there? GM: Three years ago. [About 2003.] MH: It is about time you went back. GM: Yes. “Wally” said, “We are taking all the children.” The last two years, Reed didn’t go out very much. Jack and Dick Mathis used to get Reed every month and take him out. After they sold the ranch we didn’t go out. Reed and I lived [in] the new house, so I liked to get out there with just him and me. We lived there for a good ten years. MH: Every summer? GM: Yes, every summer we would go out. Sometimes he had to be out there to water the cattle. We would have to haul water [for the cattle]. MH: Did he still ride a horse? GM: No, he didn’t. I remember when he quit riding horses. It hurt me more than it did him. He had our grandchildren and great-grandchildren out there. They were just little [youngsters]. A calf got out and he said, “I’ll go get it.” And he couldn’t get on the horse. So Jed had to go get the calf in and Jed had never been on a horse very much. It was quite a long story. Anyway, the Snyders and I had a [very] good time. She would come up to our place. [Her] little [children] were so cute, so nice [and] so polite. She would let me tend the [children] if she had to go to a funeral or [sometimes] she would let me tend one of them. It was fun just to know Laura. MH: When did the Esplins buy Wildcat from “Slim”? Didn’t they buy that [ranch] from him? GM: I think it was Mary [Waring’s] until Mary passed away. MH: “Slim” passed away first and then Mary. GM: Yes. MH: Then the Esplins took it over? GM: Yes. I really think that [is right], but I’m not sure. [The Warings didn’t] have any children. MH: Yes. GM: Mary had nieces and nephews [who] were nice [and] she was [very] close to [them]. I know they would come out there and stay with her. I know that she was [very] close to them while she was in Arizona. They took care of her. MH: Other than Reed, who was the best cowboy out there? GM: Reed! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] We agree [that] Reed was the best cowboy! GM: I don’t know. MH: Did you ever see “Buster” or [Elmo Aaron] “Frosty”, or any of those [fellows]? GM: “Frosty” was over at Bundyville. MH: Yes, along with [Vivian August] “Pat” [Bundy]. GM: I imagine he was a [fairly] good cowboy. “Frosty”, Myron Jones, Reed and I went to Arizona for [the] Soil Conservation [Service] meetings for twenty-one years together. It was so [much] fun. MH: [Laughter] I want to ask you about Myron Jones. Didn’t he do [some] logging out there? GM: Yes, and he worked for Mathis’ a lot. MH: He worked for them? GM: I know he graded [the] roads. MH: Yes, he was considered quite a [heavy] equipment operator. GM: Yes. But didn’t he build [some] of those reservoirs out there for Mathis’? MH: He may well have. I’m going to interview him and I will ask. GM: I’m not sure about that but he was out there quite a bit. MH: But he wasn’t ranching? GM: He has a ranch closer to here. MH: He has one in St. George? GM: Yes. He has a ranch out by Wolf Hole or someplace out there. MH: Was he good friends with Reed? GM: Yes, [very] good friends with Reed. He is still alive. MH: Yes, and you [folks] used to go to the Soil Conservation [Service] meetings [but] didn’t attend many meetings! GM: [We went for] twenty-one years. [Laughter] We had so much fun, too. That silly, old “Frosty” Bundy, he was so [much] fun! MH: Where were the Soil Conservation [Service] meetings held? GM: They were all over Arizona. We were in Flagstaff, in Phoenix two or three times [and] all [the] small towns around Phoenix. It was fun to go to them; we didn’t miss a one. The six of us would get into Reed’s car and away we would go. [Laughter] [The meetings were] always in January. We would stay at nice places. The girls would go shopping and [the men] would go to their meetings. Then we always took two days coming home. [We] made a little vacation out of it. MH: [The] same [amount of] time [that] it would take you to get back out to the ranch. GM: We would come over on the east side of Arizona, up through Taylor, Snowflake [and] over [that way]. Or we would come up the river. MH: Do you remember when [Wayne] Gardner died out [on the Arizona Strip] trying to bring his sheep in? [January 1949] GM: Yes. That was so sad. MH: Was Reed involved in that? GM: Yes. Reed went out the first time they went out [to look for Wayne]. I don’t know all who went out. He felt so bad because they couldn’t find him. They didn’t find him the first time. MH: No, they didn’t. Wasn’t it a couple of weeks later? GM: Yes. I think they [found him when they] went out the second time. When the snow melted, they found his hat. He was a good friend of ours. MH: Were you out there when Jack Weston died out there? Or was that before you were there? GM: No, I wasn’t out there, but Grandpa Mathis was the one that showed the sheriff where to go. He was out there. But that was quite a siege. That was after I was out there. MH: Do you remember George Weston, his brother? GM: Yes. He was [very] nice. MH: [A] nice man? GM: Good looking. He had his wife and [it was] said [that] she was from St. George. I didn’t know her. She was nice and they had little [children]. Do you know what I remember? They never did ask me in their home. But we went over there two or three times. They had a phonograph in their house. It [played] such pretty music, waltzes and classical music. You would see those little [children] in there, just listening to it. I wonder where they are. The lady, his wife, was [very] nice. MH: What was George doing out there? Was he was a doctor? GM: Yes. MH: Was he ranching? GM: They were [ranching] down by Snyders. MH: Yes. GM: He is buried out there. Who is buried out there? Have you been to that grave? MH: Yes, but that was Jack, his brother’s [grave]. He was the outlaw. GM: Yes. I can’t believe Jack was an outlaw. Heavens, Jack Weston lived out [in] Kanab when I was there. MH: Was he in Kanab when you were there? [END OF TAPE – SIDE ONE] MH: Wasn’t he supposed to have been the [fellow] who robbed a store and handcuffed the sheriff to [a] tree? [Sheriff Lew Fife of Iron County, Utah.] GM: Yes, I guess it was Jack. Gosh, I don’t know! I couldn’t believe it was Jack. MH: He had his brother, George ─ GM: Was it Jack’s brother [who] did that, or Jack? MH: It was Jack, supposedly. George was his brother. GM: George was [very] nice. He came up to the house once or twice. She never did, but when I went down there once or twice, she came out and visited with me. Their ranch was kind of down by the Snyders. MH: Yes. GM: They had two or three cute little [children] down there. MH: Did you ever go to a dance at Bundyville? GM: No. [Laughter] MH: Why not? GM: I don’t know. Reed did. MH: Really? GM: Yes, he had fun! MH: Without you? GM: This was before my day. Who was it that he said he went over there with? Somebody. They went two or three times. I don’t think it was “Buster” but it was somebody out there [who] was living [at] “Slim’s” or somewhere. Yes, he went out [there]. Reed loved [the] Bundyville people out there. They never had a birthday party that we weren’t invited to [attend]. They would have them down here in [St. George in] the wards. It was so [much] fun to go to their parties. [END OF TAPE – SIDE TWO]
Myron Jones | Oral History
Myron Jones was interviewed on February 22, 2006, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences living on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona. His wife also participated.
Myron Jones was interviewed on February 22, 2006 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences living on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona. His wife also participated.
MH: How did you come to St. George? MJ: I was born in [1914] Uintah [Weber County, Utah]. MH: Up in the Uintah Basin in eastern Utah? MJ: Yes. Dad and mother moved there [where their] oldest son and daughter were born. They were born up there. MH: How old are you now? MJ: On April 25, [2006] I will be ninety-two [years old]. MH: Ninety-two! How old were you when you [moved] to St. George? MJ: I was a baby [with] diapers on, I think. [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] How did your family wind up out on the Arizona Strip? MJ: We moved to Bloomington [Washington County, Utah] first. MH: Was it called Bloomington then? Was it Atkinville or Price [City Fields]? MJ: Atkinville was below there, but [it] was Bloomington as far as I remember. [My dad] traded the place [in] town that he bought to [the] Blakes for a place they had down in Bloomington. So we moved to Bloomington. We lived there for quite a few years. I went to school. We [rode] on a school bus from there to St. George. The [Virgin River] Creek would flood every once in a while and shut us off. [The school] bus would get stuck in the creek. MH: No Man O’ War Bridge! MJ: No, it wasn’t [built then]. [Then] we traded that place for a place out on the [Arizona] Strip, [a] homestead. The section was a mile north of the school house. MH: The Mt. Trumbull school house? MJ: [It was] just a mile down the hill where the road goes up a steep hill and over to our house. We were right underneath. Dad decided he wanted to go into the sheep business. My mother’s folks had a herd of sheep and they wanted to lease them out so dad leased them. MH: What year was this? MJ: I was sixteen [then]. [1930] I don’t remember [how] much older than that I was, but I was old enough to drive. I had made up a little car-pickup outfit out of an old Dodge. We took that and went up the Uintah [Mountains] and got the sheep and brought them down. I was sixteen [and] had a driver’s license. We went down north of Cedar [City, Iron County, Utah] [and] came off the mountains north of Cedar [City] and down past Enoch [Iron County, Utah] and out onto the flats. MH: You drove the sheep all the way from Uintah down to here? MJ: We went down the railroad [tracks] on the west side of the valley. Dad went to a reunion while we were [there]. I herded sheep in the lanes [railroad tracks] and held them there until the next day. Then we took off again. We went from there up over Iron Mountain over just east of Enterprise [Washington County, Utah] a little. The [United States] Forest [Service] had that all fenced off. I had to go in and get a permit from the ranger in Enterprise to pass over that place. The next morning I did that. Dad, by that time, had the sheep ready to head up there. [We] took them up to the Lytle Ranch that night. MH: You got all the way to [the] Lytle Ranch? MJ: [Yes]. Lytle let us put them in his corral overnight. They gave us our meals and we were treated royally. The next morning we took [the sheep] on over the hill and down past Veyo [Washington County, Utah] on down to St. George, right down along the road. MH: You came right down Highway 18 and Bluff Street? MJ: Until we got down to the Sugar Loaf rock [on Red Hill]. Then [we] went above Sugar Loaf and come down with them on this side. My brother-in-law had [a] piece of ground on the north here, where the buildings are now, [and] he owned this other [piece of ground] too. We put the sheep in the shearing corral out here – [what] used to be a shearing corral, and the next day we headed for Mt. Trumbull. MH: How many sheep [were] in that herd? MJ: I think [over] 300. We took them out on the Arizona Strip. [Dad] had traded [the] place in Bloomington for a place out there, just under the hill [and] north of the school house. MH: [It was] right in Main Street [Valley]. MJ: Then we herded them in the valleys, further out, away from the homesteads out on Poverty Knoll. It went north of the Poverty Mountain. We held them there most of the summer that year. The next winter we wintered them down next to the [Colorado] River down below where [Tony] Heaton has his camp [in] that valley. MH: You took them all the way down to Whitmore [Canyon]? MJ: Yes, we herded them [down] on the side-hills where there weren’t any homesteads. MH: Down below the Bar 10 [Ranch]? MJ: Yes. MH: How did they do in the winter down there? MJ: They did alright the first winter until we got [some sheep] mixed in with Bundy’s [herd]. [Roy] Bundy was supposed to furnish a herder while we went back [for] Christmas. When we got back, we didn’t have any sheep. The herder wasn’t a herder! He had heard that all you had to do was tie a sheep up to the tongue of the wagon and the rest [of the herd] would stick around. That was the idea he had. Roy was supposed to have known him. When we got back, we didn’t have any sheep, only the one tied to the tongue! MH: [Laughter] Oh boy! MJ: Dad went back home and all the boys came down. We scattered out and started getting them out from under the ledges. We finally got most of them back together. After that we headed down Main Street [Valley] for St. George with a Jeep. MH: Did you herd on foot or use a horse? MJ: We were a-foot most of the time. MH: Myron, you walked some miles! MJ: Yes! Yes, that was lots of walking. Later, up around [Mt.] Trumbull we had saddle horses we could ride. Then dad went into town. His brother had built a sheep wagon and [dad] brought [it] out. We hooked a team to it and brought it back down Main Street. We spent Christmas in Main Street [Valley], or I guess it was New Years. We herded along there and headed for the lower valley by the first of March. That is when they started lambing down in the narrows. MH: [Was this] below Bloomington? MJ: Yes. MH: Why did you pick the narrows down there? [Because it was] warmer? MJ: [For the] warm air and the feed [pasture] started earlier. It was country that wasn’t took up [built up]. [Laughter] That was what we had to work with. MH: Where did you sell your wool? MJ: We had to consign it and whoever we consigned with would take the wool. MH: [Did] you have to shear it? MJ: Yes. MH: Where did you do your shearing? MJ: Right out here south of town [St. George]. We would shear [the sheep] and take the wool to Cedar [City] and they would take over from there. MH: Did you ever tromp wool? MJ: No. I didn’t ever tromp wool but I’ve tied them. I’ve tied the fleeces, a lot of them. I went out with my cousin and worked with him on shearing for awhile. I learned how to do that. I knew how to handle sheep to start with, so I was [a] wrangler and part of the time I was tying up fleeces. MH: Did you have electric shears in those days? MJ: Yes, we did there. They had an electric heat and light plant. An uncle of mine owned the outfit. MH: Describe your house out [in] Main Street [Valley] by Bundyville. MJ: The first [house] we moved into [was] a dugout. It was a [fairly] good-size dugout with a cedar top on it covered with dirt. The first year, dad and my older brother went up on Mt. Trumbull and sawed down a whole bunch of good straight quaking aspen [trees]. They took them down to the saw mill that was up there then and split them. We laid them with the flat side in and put pasteboard boxes over the outside and then screen wire and plastered it. We had one big kitchen, a small room and two bedrooms. Then we kept a bed in the dugout. One year we had a school teacher; he wanted to live there. MH: Do you remember [his] name? MJ: No, I don’t. MH: Did you ever go to school at Mt. Trumbull? MJ: Yes, we walked [to school] in the snow. I was in second grade when we were there, I guess. MH: Is there anything left of the old house today? Is the old house still standing? MJ: I think it is. [It] was the last I heard. MH: [When] you turned twenty-one [years old, you] decided to leave home. What happened then? MJ: [I] went back [to] herding sheep with Ward Esplin! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] MJ: I came in here and spent a week and I met my wife at that time. MH: How did you meet your wife? MJ: I was partying at the dance one night and I got a date with her. It went on from there. MH: I didn’t know you were a dancer! MJ: [Laughter] I could dance with any of them! MH: [Laughter] You must have [been] alright, she stuck with you. MJ: She sure did! MH: Not much of a romance if you were out with Ward Esplin herding sheep! MJ: Two days later, I saw Gil Prince on the street. I said, “How about a job?” He was still in the sheep business. He said, “I haven’t one for you, but why don’t you get a-hold of Ward Esplin?” So I contacted Ward and he said, “I’ll come pick you up at seven o’clock in the morning.” That was when he took me out [to the Arizona Strip]. MH: Where was he running sheep at that time? MJ: He was running in the spring, back on the slope, up on Littlefield [Arizona], right [on] the slope there. MH: On the Beaver Dam [Arizona] slope? MJ: Yes. I worked for him until – I would take a day or two off and then [be] back on the job up on the mountain. He went up [to] Duck Creek [Iron County, Utah and that] is where we summered two different years when I was with him. We had an old [fellow] named Charley Little [who] herded when I wasn’t there. That was when I married [and] took her up there that summer. We had a sheep wagon and a little cabin set there. MH: You might be a good dancer, but I don’t know about your honeymoon! [Laughter] MJ: It was alright. [Laughter] MH: How did you get the sheep from here up to Duck Creek? [Did you] trail them up? MJ: [We went] up by Virgin [Washington County, Utah] and up [the] road on [the] side-hills [and] on into lower Kolob [Canyon]. That was where he had his setup [on his] property down in the upper and lower Kolob [Canyon in Iron County, Utah]. MH: [Was this] where the reservoir is today? MJ: Yes, just south of it is where we were. I herded there two different summers. My wife was there [with me]. MH: What year was that? MJ: Oh, I don’t remember the years! [Laughter] MH: Now you [are] married. What happens then? MJ: She was with me up there all that summer. Then she went down [to] live with her mother and her father while I was up there and [came] back and forth. She would go to St. George at times, and meet my folks and [come] back up there. So she had the run of the ─ MH: She was footloose and fancy free! When you got out of the sheep business, where did you go? MJ: That was when I went to work for Ward Esplin. MH: You went to work for Ward Esplin for a couple of years. Didn’t you come back to St. George or [did you] go back on the [Arizona] Strip? MJ: I don’t remember what we were doing after the second year up on Ward Esplin’s [property at] Duck Creek. [Laughter] UV: Second year of what? MJ: [When] we were herding sheep for Ward. We bought a little Willys. [Willys-Overland Motors, Inc.] MH: [A] Willys car? Boy you’re lucky! I’m old enough to remember Willys cars. Sears and Roebuck used to sell those! MJ: [Laughter] I traded for it in Cedar [City]. That was what we drove back and forth when she would come up [to see me at Duck Creek]. She stayed up there a lot with me that first summer. MH: How did you get back [to] working out on the [Arizona] Strip? MJ: I started to getting jobs out there, working for [Mohave] County [Arizona] and for the BLM [Bureau of Land Management]. Then I got into the equipment business through the Soil Conservation [Service]. MH: Is that where you learned to operate [heavy] equipment? MJ: Yes, that is where I started. MH: What did you run? MJ: I ran the grader, the loader [and] the caterpillar. After I got a caterpillar [I] took it out there. MH: Was that a motor grader? Or did you have to pull it? MJ: It was a motor grader. It belonged to [Mohave] County or the Soil Conservation [Service]. I operated it for them and graded all the roads. MH: That was [long ago] enough that [it] would have been mechanical and not hydraulic. MJ: No, it was hydraulic. How many miles was it we traveled that one year? UV: [We traveled] 1,500 miles when you graded the roads. MH: That is a lot of miles to follow you around! MJ: [Laughter] Yes! UV: We started over by Gould’s [Ranch] over by Hurricane, went up Mt. Trumbull Mountain, down Bundyville and down the canyons. I kept track of the miles. [For] 1,500 miles he stood driving the grader. That is when he wore his ankles out. He couldn’t sit down and had to stand [while running the grader]. MH: Yes, you can’t see where your blade is if you don’t stand up. So you spent all summer grading roads. MJ: Yes, part of the summer. When I wasn’t [doing] that, I went out on Black Rock [Canyon] and filed on the waters, four springs on [the] north side of the mountain. Then I leased a school section [of land] that tied into it [and] was available. That started the difficult [beginning] of the BLM. MH: Did you run sheep on that school section? MJ: No, I got into the Brahma business, you might say. MH: You got into cows? MJ: I bought a bunch of heifers from Lane Cox. I worked all summer for him on the ranch out there. It was out on the desert up by Milford [Beaver County, Utah]. He wanted to sell them and I said, “I’ll buy them.” I took them over. He had been using my International Truck that I had traded for and had about worn it out a couple of times hauling hay from [his] place to [Las] Vegas [Nevada], back and forth. When we [were] ready to settle up, I said, “I’ll trade you for the labor on that truck for the heifers.” There were twelve or thirteen heifers. I just threw them in [my truck] and took them out to the ranch. I had my water pipe down from the springs. I had to prove up all of those springs, get them in the pipe-line, dig them out and pipe them out. MH: How did those Brahmas do out there? Did they [do] alright? MJ: Yes, they did alright. These heifers were Herefords and I traded for a bull from Max Layton, so I had a Brahma bull. That is what got me into the Brahma business. MH: So you ran a Brahma-Hereford mix? That is an odd [breed]. MJ: It worked, for awhile. MH: Where were you living when you had [the] place out on Black Rock [Canyon]? MJ: Right here [in St. George]. What year was it that we bought this house? UV: [What]? MJ: We traded the property in town where I had been living and borrowed a bunch of money and bought this [house] here. I traded my brother out. He owned all of this [property] on both sides of me. I traded him work that I did on the ranch he took up [had] out there. I bought a caterpillar and moved [it] in there and did my own work. I did a [lot] of work for him on his trails and one thing and another. MH: What size caterpillar did you buy?? MJ: [It was] D-4. MH: Oh, a little one. MJ: It was a [fairly] good size. We could do a lot of work with a D-4 [and] built a lot of roads. MH: Was [it] a cable operated blade or was it ─ MJ: No, [it was] hydraulic. MH: Could you push some dirt with [it]? MJ: Yes! [And] make ponds. MH: Did you make a lot of reservoirs for people [on the Arizona Strip]? Who did you build reservoirs for? MJ: Mostly for [Fernard LeMoyne] “Buster” Esplin and [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” Waring. I cleaned a couple of ponds for “Slim” when he was there. MH: Describe “Slim”; what was he like? MJ: He was a good, honest citizen as far as I knew [about] him. He would do anything to help you. MH: Was he [a] wildcat at that time? MJ: Yes. MH: Did you ever meet his wife, Mary [(Osburn) Waring]? MJ: Yes, she was there. I overhauled their cars and changed oil for them now and again. MH: Did you ever know Afton Snyder? MJ: Yes. MH: Was he out there where you were? MJ: He was on the south of “Slim’s” [place], on a point, down in the valley with the Grand Gulch Mine. He was down by [the mine] and along that side-hill and [had] some [land] up on Parashaunt next to “Slim.” MH: Yes, he was close to “Slim.” Was he a bit of a character? MJ: He was all to himself. He was quite a character alright! [Laughter]. MH: What did he do – ranch? MJ: Yes, he had some sections [of land] and some cows out there. He would have his family out there once in awhile. MH: Did you ever go down to Grand Gulch Mine? MJ: I did go down to the Grand Gulch Mine once. I traded for a trailer-house and went down there with the pickup and brought the trailer-house out of the Grand Gulch by the great Grand Gulch Mine. MH: Boy, that must have been a trip! MJ: It was! I went out early one morning and got the tires all pumped up and [went] back up to Wolf Hole Valley, south of [the] waters [at] Little Tank. It was [late] in the night so I just pulled over and slept until morning. Then I came on home. That was when I moved [the trailer-house] out there to live in when I wanted to work springs out there. It is still out there, [all] still set up. MH: It is? Was that over on Black Rock [Mountain]? MJ: No, that was down on the valley on the line-points where my setup started. MH: Where [was that] from Wolf Hole [Mountain]? MJ: It was over the mountain from Wolf Hole Mountain. It was on the south of Black Rock Mountain. The springs were all up close to the top where I had them. I had [to] pipe [the water] all down. The [fellows] wanted to share and so they furnished the pipe and I furnished the labor and put the pipe out down to where they could get to [the water]. I had to prove up on the water and that took some money. MH: Do you remember the store at Wolf Hole? MJ: Yes. MH: What was [the store] like? Describe it. MJ: I went there one time. We had a horse that got loose out of the pasture and went back to St. George. MH: [Laughter] That is quite a walk! MJ: I got on one [horse] and took the head of the other one and away we went back out [to the Arizona Strip]. When [we] got to Wolf Hole, late in the afternoon, I got us a [candy] bar or two and went on my way. It was midnight when I got back home. [Laughter] MH: How was the road up Quail Canyon? MJ: It was just a trail. It wasn’t anything like it is now. MH: You were the [fellow] who was supposed to grade it. MJ: I never did grade that [road]. [It] was all out on BLM ground where I graded. I didn’t ever grade that [road]. MH: Did you ever know Reed [Miles] Mathis? MJ: I knew him well. MH: Did you do any work for Reed? MJ: Yes, [I worked] with him a lot. MH: He had a pretty place out there. MJ: Yes, he had a good setup out there. I joined the Soil Conservation [Service] and we would go on trips. MH: That is right; you [fellows] were always out on a party! [Laughter] MJ: We went up to Reed’s one time and partied up there. MH: Do you still have the property out on Black Rock [Mountain]? MJ: Yes. I turned it over to my son. [Allen Jones] MH: Your son is running it? MJ: Yes. MH: How many cows [do] you have out there? MJ: [We have] thirty-some head. MH: What is your brand? MJ: [It is] E with a J underneath it. MH: Where did that come from? MJ: Just out of my head! UV: He tried to get a M J but ─ MH: Somebody else had it. So E J is the brand. How long did [the] store at Wolf Hole stay in operation? MJ: Well, let’s see. We had been out there with the sheep and that year the government come in and bought all the old ewes. [We] had to butcher them out. MH: What was the reason behind that? MJ: I don’t know; [to] feed the poor, I guess. [Laughter] They had butchering places out there. I went over to one place where Erlin Orson had his sheep. We would run around him, so we had sheep in his herds. I [wanted] to go through ─ while they were around the dip in the corral ─ the herd to see if I had any of our sheep in there. I got out in the corral there and found this one – he had his mark. He brought the mark from Enterprise. It had a swallow fork and three bits. So [inaudible] swallow fork and [inaudible] and I had three bits and [inaudible]. This swallow fork looked like a crop most of the time. I ran across this sheep that had that; it was a crop, I’m sure it was. I started pulling it out and he come over and stopped me. “You can’t take that.” I said, “Are you thinking I can’t?” And he hit me! Right in the mouth and down I went. When I came back up, my fist was right at his chin, and I got him a good one! His old hands were going around. He was kind of cross-eyed, anyway. By that time, this [fellow who] was butchering came running over there. He said, “You get the hell outa that corral!” But I didn’t get my sheep. I couldn’t prove that wasn’t swallow fork, but it was a crop. MH: What year was [it] that they were buying sheep? MJ: I don’t remember what year [it] was. MH: What’s the worst winter you ever had out there? MJ: That winter [when] we had the sheep south of Bundyville. It [was fairly] deep that year. MH: Was that the year that Gardner died? [January 1949] UV: He was out of the sheep business when Wayne Gardner died. MH: That would have been before 1949. Gardner died [in 1949]. What do you do when you have deep snow and you are way out there? MJ: [Laughter] If you are going home you just dig your way through and get back home. MH: How do the sheep do in that sort of weather? MJ: You try to keep them out where they can run the side-hills, mostly [we would herd the] side-hills. MH: [On the] south, facing side-hills, the snow wasn’t so deep. Did you go out [looking for] Wayne Gardner? MJ: No. MH: You didn’t get involved? MJ: No. I was out there doing caterpillar work when they were hunting for him. I was opening up the road down toward the Gold Butte Mine, up the canyon. MH: You were way over on the west end [of the Arizona Strip], down around Pacoon [inaudible] and that area. MJ: Yes, they called it Grand Gulch Mine. MH: That was how they got into Grand Gulch [Mine], from over that way. MJ: Then later, when I [was] working with the district [the Soil Conservation Service], I graded roads from the top clear down around this mine. That was the first time I had ever been to [the mine]. MH: [Did] you come down Pigeon Canyon? MJ: I graded across to [the] head of Pigeon Canyon. At that time, only a four-wheel drive [vehicle] was all they [could] get up there. We went up past the end and then down into the next canyon and then we would grade back up. MH: What did you do for “Slim” Waring? Did you build any roads for him? MJ: No, I cleaned some ponds for him. MH: Did you ever get out on Kelly Point? MJ: Yes, I built a road out there. I built trails out there from the [Reed] Mathis [Pine Spring] Ranch. I built a road from there down. It was a wagon track down onto the point, off down the canyon, and went on the long-point around along the rim with a road over to where you could look down to where they were [thinking of] building a bridge or a dam. I could see the equipment on the south side of the [Colorado] River from there. I built a pond down underneath for him while I was there. MH: Do you remember the saw mill at Green Spring? MJ: No, but I was by it. It wasn’t a working [mill] when I was there. It had been abandoned. MH: They started back up in the 1950s and [it] burned a couple of times. MJ: I didn’t know about that. MH: A group from Short Creek [Arizona] was running [the mill]. Did you ever stay at the Mathis place? MJ: Yes, two or three times. MH: Do you remember the well out in front of the house? MJ: Yes, he fell down in it one time and about didn’t get out! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] Was [the] well hand-dug or was it drilled? MJ: It had to [have been hand drilled. It was a big well. MH: Who put the windmill on it? MJ: I guess Mathis put the windmill up. MH: Were there any other ranches along the rim besides “Slim’s” out there? You go to the Mathis Ranch and he had [inaudible] and a cabin out there. What about Oak Grove? Was there anything going on in Oak Grove? MJ: There were two trailer-houses there. There was a dugout there, I think, [that] somebody had built years ago, and the well was there. They had [a] well. MH: [Was there] any water in it? MJ: Yes. In the spring, after wet weather, [water] would run out the bottom of the pipe-line. It would build up enough [water] to do [that]. They [would] run it down and around to where some of the old-timers [had] built on the side-hill of that ridge. MH: Is there anything left of those old places? MJ: No, they are all gone. MH: Did you ever do any logging out there? MJ: Yes. MH: Where? MJ: Right along “Slim’s” [land], right there along the road. We got a bunch of logs about this size on the butt, log cabin type, and brought them in and squared them up [at] the mill here. That was some of the lumber Allen [Jones] has in his house up here, my boy. MH: Is Allen running the cows? MJ: Yes. MH: Have you retired your caterpillar? MJ: He does [some work with it] when he wants to. It is setting out there to be used. He has one here that he got a long time ago. He just got it back on good tracks again. He is hauling cement from the gypsum mine, putting it in barrels, bringing it in and stacking it. [It is] surplus [cement]. They open [the] valves after they have unloaded and turn on a vibrator. It vibrates out nearly another hundred pounds of cement. He was doing a lot of the road grading for the mine at that time so they gave him permission. He could gather up all the cement as long as [it was] dumped there. It was his [for] gathering it up. MH: [Cement] is [fairly] expensive right now. MJ: He has barrels all over the back end of his hill, as well as piled up out there. [It] turned [out] to be quite a job. MH: Were you out on the [Arizona] Strip when the CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] were out there? That would have been in the 1930s. MJ: No. MH: What was the worst thing that ever happened to you out there? MJ: There wasn’t too much [that] happened! [Laughter] MH: No accidents, no mishaps? MJ: No. The worst thing that happened was the scattering of the sheep; getting them all rounded up again. [Laughter] MH: What was it like building the road down into Whitmore [Canyon]? That must have been a little exciting. MJ: It was an old wagon road to start with, and I took the grader down and widened it out, smoothed it up, and made a better road out of it. That was all. MH: It is still [fairly] steep getting in there. MJ: Yes, [in] some places. I traded for a trailer house that was out there and got it [out]. There [was] one hill that I didn’t know whether or not I [could] pull up out of there or not. I moved a lot of rocks and [fixed it so] I could make a good turn, a run on it, and I made it. [Laughter] I left here early in the morning, got out there, got the tires on it and everything pumped up and [was] back up the canyon by dark. I was coming up the canyon and it was dark when I come up that dugway, up that hill. I got over into Wolf Hole Valley, the other side of what they call Little Tank on that long valley there and it was way into the night. I just shut her down and tipped over in the seat and slept until morning, then brought it on in. [Laughter] MH: Did you do the airstrip down in Whitmore [Canyon]? Who graded that? MJ: No, I never did [that]. MH: Did you make any airstrips anywhere? MJ: No. MH: [Did] you use the roads a lot for airstrips? MJ: Yes, your road was the airstrip a lot of times. MH: What was the funniest thing that ever happened out there? MJ: What I thought was the funniest was [the] sheep herder [who] thought he could tie a sheep up and they would stay around. [Laughter] MH: This has been a good talk, but I have to ask your wife a question. Can he dance? UV: He used to [be able to] before his ankles [were] fused. MH: He said he met you [at] a dance and I just wondered if you really danced with him. UV: Sure! [Laughter] MH: Who was the best cowboy you ever knew out there? MJ: There were a lot of different cowboys out there. I don’t know who would be the best. MH: You watched them work. Who did you think was good? [END OF TAPE] UV - This is his wife but unable to locate her name.
Ferron Leavitt | Oral History
Ferron Leavitt was interviewed on February 3, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences as Resource Area Manager of the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona for the Bureau of Land Management.
MH: [Ferron] retired a couple of years ago. He was born and [grew up] in Santa Clara [Washington County, Utah] near the [Arizona] Strip. [Did] you leave Santa Clara to [attend] school at Utah State University [Logan, Cache County, Utah]? FL: Yes. MH: Did you graduate in range management? FL: [I graduated in] range management in 1967. MH: Where was your first job with the BLM [Bureau of Land Management]? FL: I worked in Riverside County, California [and] San Diego [California]. MH: How long were you there? FL: [I was there] about seven years. MH: Where did you move [to]? FL: I moved back to the [Arizona] Strip. I had worked [as a] temporary here for Tom Jenson who was an area manager. He called and asked me if I would come back and work with him. He and Garth Colton, who was the district manager at the time, brought me back and I was glad to [be] here! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] I bet you were glad to get back home! Initially, were you over on the east side of the [Arizona] Strip? FL: I worked in the Vermillion Resource Area which is the eastern half of the field office. I worked as a range conservationist for three or four years. Then I became the area manager over there. MH: When did you come back over to this end of the [Arizona] Strip? FL: It was probably about 1995 or 1994. MH: From the mid-1990s to the time you retired, were there a lot of changes in the way the [Arizona] Strip was administered? FL: Yes, there were. There were a lot more people and we [were] involved in a lot of planning and multiple-use [programs]. In the past, [we] had been [involved] mostly [in] grazing. That was the big [program] when I first came to work. It evolved into a lot of other activities such as uranium mining, especially over on the east side. I was quite involved when they were doing a lot of exploration out there [and in the] recreation and the wilderness areas. Before I retired, they had [set aside] a couple of monuments. It [has] changed a lot and [very] fast through the years. MH: When were the wilderness areas — Mt. Logan, the Piute Wilderness Area, [and] Grand Wash Wilderness Area established? FL: That was while I was area manager over there. It was kind of unique that the [Arizona] Strip was deeply involved. We had a lot of controversy and were arguing and fighting with everybody. Then we got a few people together, not just the BLM but wilderness advocates, the ranchers and the miners. That came about because a coalition was formed. Because of the uranium mining, they wanted to know where they could explore and where they couldn’t because we had wilderness study areas. This coalition group came together. It was mainly led by a [man] named [Russell D.] “Russ” Butcher. He was a wilderness [man] but he was willing to work with us, the miners and the ranchers. That is [how] this came about. It was all negotiated and agreed to [by] not following the regular wilderness routes. These areas [were] where there was a lot of exploration [and] we were able to get a lot of those areas out of the designation. So it went [very] smoothly and we ended up with about, as I recall, ten or twelve wilderness areas across the [Arizona] Strip. We had very little controversy. MH: That is interesting. On the Arizona Strip things seem to, as far as the administration goes, move more smoothly than [in] other areas in Utah, specifically the Grand Staircase-[Escalante National Monument]. Why is that? Why is it that the Arizona Strip seems to be able to deal with the controversy? They have their differences of opinion, but they seem to come to consensus at some point. It is sort of refreshing from what you see in most of the public land management issues. FL: I have heard that a lot. Actually, I guess I have seen it and think that is really true. We were able to go through the planning system without a lot of the controversy. When I was area manager, we had the grazing environmental statements and the grazing decisions but we worked [very] hard to maintain and work with the livestock permittees [individuals allowed to use the land for grazing] and the miners. We tried to keep a relationship where we could work and negotiate with them, not necessarily to give up but to negotiate. With the livestock permittees, as I recall, we had about 120 [or] 130 decisions that we issued. On the Vermillion [Resource Area] we only had five protests [and] we resolved all five. We had no appeals. We worked [very] hard when we were writing allotment management plans to work closely with the permittees, trying to get their input as best we could. We made grazing reductions. We cut numbers. We worked closely with them, especially the range people, and made sure they knew the allotments with the permittee. They traveled out on the ground with them and they would come in and some would be pretty mad. [Laughter] Several times the permittees would walk out. Then they would come back and we would sit down and talk some more. We tried to work things out and keep an open relationship. I think it carried through when the uranium exploration [started]. We did hundreds of plans of operation with them. We spent a lot of time with them and tried to work problems out if there was any way we could. MH: On a philosophical note, I [want] you to comment on this: do you think the fact that a lot of the people working on the [Arizona] Strip for the BLM had grown up knowing the [Arizona] Strip prior to going to work for the BLM and they had common interest, understanding and appreciation of the [Arizona] Strip with the permittees and because of that were they able to sit down and go over controversial issues? Do you think [their previous experiences] had anything to do with it? FL: Absolutely. Plus many of us, I think, were raised on ranches. The range people, Bob Sandberg and some of these [men who] are still here, we understood what they were going through and what they needed. I was raised on a ranch and felt like I could talk with them on that level. I think it made a lot of difference. Plus, when we come to the [Arizona] Strip we don’t want to leave. We [had] our careers here and we intend to stay for the long run. We want to make relationships work. MH: Throughout Utah, Nevada, and Arizona the [Arizona] Strip is one area where they do seem to get things hammered out at one point and another. While we are talking about differences of opinion, what were some of the notable [situations] you had to deal with? [What were] some of the funny outcomes [for] some of the permittees? FL: I would have to think about that for awhile. The individuals out on the [Arizona] Strip are very strong in their feelings. They have a love for the area, but they are very adamant about protecting their interest. [When] you [go] out in that area, some of the [people, like the] Bundys, have been there so long [that] they felt like it was their land, essentially. They were taking care of it and they didn’t need [the] BLM. We were in the way. They were doing fine and [the] land was being protected. To some extent, that was true. They really did have a love for the land. Occasionally, we would get a new livestock permittee [who would] come in [and] that wasn’t situation. I remember one incident [that happened] in Kanab Creek which was designated as a primitive area at the time, I think. A permittee wanted to build a road down into it so his livestock could get in. There was a spring [in that area]. We couldn’t allow him to [build the road] because it would have disturbed too much [of the] area. What he did to get around us, he went down and filed a mining claim. Then he built a road down into his mining claim. Of course, we challenged that [action]. It was not valid and he ended up having to come back and restore the road. We had to threaten to cancel his grazing permit. Sometimes we had to use a [fairly] strong arm in those situations. Whenever possible, we tried to negotiate [with] them. On the [Arizona] Strip there are lots of fences [and] water developments that had to be put in because it is a water basin and there is not much water out there. Sometimes, in the wilderness study areas, we weren’t able to do some of those things. We had some knockdown, dragout fights trying to make it so they could run their ranch but yet not have an impact on the study areas or the wilderness areas. We had to reduce numbers because of some of those [situations]. Sometimes we couldn’t put fencing in. But, all in all, eventually they would come around and realize that it was a bigger picture than just what they wanted. Some of our biggest concerns and problems were probably over on the Paria Plateau. Are you familiar with that? MH: Yes. FL: [It is] a very unique area. I just love it. There were some of the real old timers who went out there, the Bowmans, the Richs and A. P. Sanders, [who] plain didn’t like us. It was so remote and sandy. The only way to get around a lot of that country was on a horse. When we [went] in there and tried to work some [situations] out and put management plans [in], it was in [a] primitive and study wilderness area. We made some [fairly] significant changes up there. Some of [the ranchers] ended up selling out and combining rather than having to [submit to] some of [our] plans. As far [as being] unique, it has probably been done in thousands of places across BLM. MH: What about good and bad years? There had to have been years when there was drought and you were in the untenable position of having to say, “Look, we have to cut [the] number [of cattle] back.” [The land] was just not there to support them. FL: We went through that. A lot of the permittees recognized [the situation] and cut back their [herd] numbers. We tried to give them [the] opportunity to do it [and] worked with them as best we could. There were a few ranchers [who] didn’t want to reduce down as far as [was] necessary, I understood that. When they did [reduce their herds it] was hard to get back in business. You can’t sell a cow-calf operation down to almost nothing and then, when the drought is over, automatically build it back up. You would have to go buy a whole new herd. [The] cattle had been running in that area for years. They knew the area and you cannot replace that. But there were a few [times when] we had to make those reductions and we did. We worked with them as best we could to get the numbers down by their own accord, when it was best for them, before the auction prices [went] to hell. They lost. It really hurt a lot of the permittees. But by the same token, those [who] didn’t [reduce their herds] we had to force off [the land and] it took the ranges a lot longer to come back. MH: Where did most of the permittees market their cows? Did they haul them off the [Arizona] Strip? Did buyers come in and buy [the cows] on the spot? Did they run their bulls with their cows year round or did they separate them out? FL: As far as selling [cattle], the biggest auction is in Cedar City [Iron County, Utah]. Another one [is] in Salina [Sevier County, Utah]. That is where most of them [take their cattle]. There were a few of the bigger, more progressives ranchers [who] would bring the buyers in and [sell] them out on the [Arizona] Strip or buy them on futures. What was your last question? MH: I wondered how they got [their cattle] to market. Did they go to market year round or did they go for a spring calf crop? FL: Most of them did go with the spring calf crops. Another [reason] that made it hard to adjust [herd] numbers was the cow-calf operations. It is [such a] remote [area] that most of the operations are year long. It made it much harder to manage those areas because the livestock were out on each allotment year-round. I would say most of them, when I first [arrived] here, [had] just one pasture [and] cows [were] out there [all] year long. They would run their bulls with them. They would have calves throughout the year. [That was] not the best of operations. It was beginning to change [fairly] fast about the time I [came]. BLM was in the process of trying to divide allotments up into pasture so we could rotate. We had been building a lot of waters [ponds], pipelines [and] reservoirs so that we could make it possible to rotate [pastures] within allotments. There were a few community allotments. It is [very] hard to get everybody to think the same way and to run their bulls and operations the same way. That was one of the reasons early on that the [Arizona] Strip was divided up into individual allotments or family allotments, as much as possible. We tried to keep [it] that [way]. There were some advantages for management and for the permittees. That was one of the reasons that we started writing allotment management plans so we could implement grazing systems to protect the land [and the ranchers] didn’t run on [the same] piece of ground year-round. MH: What were the major breeds of cattle out there? Has that changed [during] your time? FL: Early on most of [the herds] were Herefords. I would say that [breed] would probably be [in] the minority now. There are so many breeds out there. The Herefords were bred through the years for this kind of rough country. They did well out there [but] other breeds that have come in, Charolais and Angus. Now there are a few ranchers [who] have gone [with] Longhorn [cattle]. MH: [Joseph T.] “Joe” Atkin [inaudible]. FL: Yes, “Joe” is one of them. They had their own herd. There were two or three other [ranchers]. MH: He [”Joe”] spoke highly of those [breeds] in terms of birth weight [of] calves and [the] ease of calving. FL: Yes, there are some advantages. They are beautiful animals but it is expensive to get [a herd of] those [cattle], too. Even the Atkins kept their base herd mostly Herefords, but they have such big allotments and such a big area that they had a separate herd and a separate area for running their Longhorns. MH: Were you here when the [National] Park [Service] closed down the Lake Mead [National] Recreation Area aspect of grazing and started to phase that out? If you were, were there any problems with that? FL: I was [here] at the tail-end of [that situation]. The biggest problem was fencing a lot [the area]. Then we had to reduce the number [of allotments] back down. It took a long time to get some of those areas fenced. The boundaries, especially over on [the] east side around June Tank [Heaton Knolls] and some of [the area] where Ward Heaton’s big outfit, ran into the park. In order to make that work, the Heatons out of Alton [Kane County], Utah (you may be familiar with them) had a couple of allotments and they bought another one from The Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints] at Twin Tanks to make up for [what] they lost [in the Lake Mead] area. It took us a few years to get an allotment management plan implemented [with] them. We changed the season of use for them completely. The reason it took a little longer is because they had to go up to Alton in their summer country and do a lot of reseeding. They modernized their operation and took their cattle up there in the summer so that we only had [their cattle] in the winter [on] some of [the] allotments [on the Arizona Strip]. [This] helped a lot. That was how they overcame losing part of [their] area in the park [Lake Mead National Recreation Area]. MH: It would have been during your tenure that Tony Heaton developed the Bar 10 [Ranch] down [in] Whitmore [Canyon]. That is about the only commercial operation on the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument and the [Arizona] Strip right now, isn’t it? FL: It is as far as having allotments and running [cattle]. There is another [rancher by the name of] Mel Heaton. I don’t know if you have heard of Mel Heaton. MH: I know Mel, [he is] out of Moccasin [Arizona]. FL: He runs horse trips and wagon trips out on the [Arizona] Strip. His [operation] is still commercial out there. [He] works with the ranchers [and] goes on some of their cattle drives. Yes, those [are the only] two. The Bar 10 [Ranch] is a little more unique because they have private land down there that [is] used in conjunction with the BLM lands for grazing. MH: How did the BLM react to Tony building the lodge down there and bringing guests into stay at the lodge? FL: I think BLM was fine with it. Tony had a lot of allotments up on Mt. Trumbull and [some others] scattered around. He gave up parts of those [allotments] and concentrated down in Whitmore [Canyon] and exchanged some lands [with the] BLM. I thought it worked out well. A lot of his operation does not affect [the] BLM. Some of their four-wheeler trips, I think, do. As far as flying people into his airstrip and taking them down the [Colorado] River and bringing them out, I thought it was quite compatible. MH: What about mining? The only mining in recent history would have been the [Hack Canyon] Uranium Mine out by Hack’s Canyon. Was there any other prospecting activity down around [the] Grand Gulch or Copper Mountain [Mines]? [Was there] anything like that going on when you were here? FL: Yes. I dealt mostly with the east side [of the Arizona Strip] and that was where most of [the mining occurred]. Most of [the] exploration [was around] Kanab Creek on both sides of it. There was some down [mining] towards Parashaunt Canyon. They were doing quite a bit of exploration over on this side as well. But it didn’t seem like it led to anything. We had a few mine shafts where they actually were mining ore over on us. They drilled down in Hack’s Canyon in order to protect some of [those] areas a little bit. They tunneled in on a couple of them. But most of them were [inaudible] pipes and they didn’t disturb a large area. Most of [the] mines involved forty [or] eighty acres and were narrow shafts where the [inaudible] pipe would go down. The big [problems] were roads and trails [needed] for their exploration. [That] was where most of the disturbance [occurred]. Getting [the roads] reclaimed was one of our big projects. It was kind of fun because there was a lot of excitement. We had a [very] hard time keeping up with it because it was [happening] so fast and furious there for a few years. MH: What about logging? Was there any logging going on around the [Mt.] Trumbull area when you were here? FL: Not really. When I first [came] here we had just barely [obtained] that land from the Kaibab Forest [in Arizona]. It was shortly after that I became manager out there. We didn’t want to push [the situation]. There had been logging in the past but not a lot. We saw [the area] more as [being] recreation oriented. We really didn’t sell timber much, very little, until recent years when [we started] thinning [the forest]. The big project, RCA [Resource Conservation Area], out there now where they are doing a lot of thinning and opening up the stands. Early on, when I was there we were looking at it differently. MH: Did you have any major fires while you were here? FL: Yes, there were several but I don’t remember the years. I remember down in Pacoon where huge fires [occurred]. They didn’t do much damage except it did convert a lot of the perennial [grasses] to annual so it perpetuated itself. I remember 40,000 [to] 50,000-acre fires down in [that area]. It was an incredible area that [the fires] would cover. [The fires] would do it in just a matter of a few days because there were so much flash fuels. The biggest [fire that] had [any] impact would have been out [at] Mt. Trumbull. We had a fire go through there. We thought we had lost our lodge. There was so much smoke when they flew [over] it. It was up in the timber. We couldn’t see, so we figured we had lost [the lodge] but it burned up right around the edge. We managed to save the old cabins [that we use when] we stay out there. Later on, we had an electrical short and [the lodge] burned down anyway! [Laughter] But the big fires were mostly over on the west side. When I moved over [as] chief [of] operations I was over the fire program. We did have some [fairly] good fires down [there]. That was one of the reasons we talked about finding a way to have some equipment and a place down there in the Pacoon [area] so we could have somebody stationed there. It is a [fairly] miserable place most of the year down there, especially [during] the summer. Plus, getting equipment in there would take so long. MH: What was the best part of your job while you were here? FL: There were a lot of good parts. The best parts are the days you [go] to the field. Any day you went to the field was a good day! A lot of [time] was [spent] getting to meet and know the people on the [Arizona] Strip, the permittees, the miners, the people in the cities, the mayors, working with cities [like] Fredonia [Arizona] and working with the [United States] Forest Service on a lot of projects. MH: What was the worst part of the job? FL: [Laughter] There were those days when we had to trespass [on] somebody’s [land]. When [ranchers would] come in and throw money down on your desk and walk out. [They] wouldn’t talk to you [about] whether it was a grazing trespass or one of those [inaudible]. You enjoyed the people and wanted to work with them. It was part of the job that had to be done and you knew you were hurting somebody sometimes. A lot of times you realized that some of [the problems] were brought on by themselves and it had to be done. We still had to maintain some controls. I didn’t like it when we had to hurt people and it affected their livelihood. We took that seriously. MH: I have two questions I ask all the interviewees. The first [question]: what is it with you [folks] and [the] Arizona Strip? You talk to the people who work for and on the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument, to the ranchers, permittees and they all have a fondness, a reverence for the darn [Arizona] Strip. It is a reverence you don’t see for other national parks [or] other monuments. It is an acquired taste. Can you comment on that? FL: I would [like] to. I wish I had a concrete answer for you. It is remote. It is quiet. It is relatively undisturbed. I have gone out there and worked. For instance, when we first took Mt. Trumbull over from the [United States] Forest Service, I was doing a rain survey out there. I would go out Monday morning and come back Friday night. I might not see or talk to anyone all week. Occasionally, you would see a truck go by on a road. But to spend a week out there doing [a] rain survey, not meeting another person, you had to depend on yourself. You had to take care of it yourself [when] anything happened. You [could] get into snow, mud, dust, get stuck [and have] break-downs. You had to depend on yourself, but it was the peace and serenity of relative undisturbed areas. It is unique. [You] see the livestock and wildlife, those big bucks out there with tremendous sets of antlers on them. Then, over on the Vermillion [Cliffs] it is such a beautiful country — pinnacles. Every area you go to is different. You go down Kanab Creek [and] you see something else. Hike the Paria Canyon. It would take a week to ten days in the Paria Canyon [before you would] see other people. And the weather! When I first came here I had heard so much about it. I had friends [who] had done surveying out in the Clayhole area tell stories. It is just different and probably it is as remote as any area in the [United] States in its own way, not so much in miles. MH: [In] the lower forty-eight [states], yes. FL: Once you leave [St. George and] head south, you are on your own. There are no Pepsi stores. All of those things combined plus the people [who] have been out there. They have lived in the town [at] Mt. Trumbull. I went to school with some of the people [who] lived out there. When they first came back to [St. George] and started high school [they] would tell stories. Then you read the old newspaper columns. I read in the [Washington County News] for years [about] Paws Pocket before I ever had the chance [to go out to the Arizona Strip]. When I had the opportunity to come here, boy, did I jump at it! MH: That is a good answer. I think you have almost answered my next question which is: given your perspective, both as a local boy and also with responsibilities of managing BLM lands on the [Arizona] Strip, what would you like to see happen with [the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument] in the future? How would you like to see it managed and administered? FL: Being a BLM’er, I firmly believe in multiple uses. I want to see the lands used. I want to see [the areas] remain open to people to get [there] but I want it to remain remote. How do you do these two together? That is the hard part. I want it well-managed. I want it to look good. The ranges through the years were [fairly] well managed. The ranges were in [fairly] good shape. We hit droughts and we go down for awhile but we have good systems out there. We have taken care of the range part of it. Now [there] are monuments over several areas. Recreation is going to be a big thing [with] access into [areas] like on the Paria and we [will] have to limit numbers [of people]. You hate to do that but to protect it, to keep the remoteness, you have to do it. I would like to see it continue on in the future the way it has been, knowing that you cannot do that because there are going to be so many more people out there. The challenge is to keep it remote, keep it so it doesn’t become an eyesore, [be sure] mining [operations] are reclaimed and keep [the area] open to the public even for use [by] four-wheelers. I want to see trails and roads remain open but people restricted to these [areas] so we don’t disturb the [areas] where there are trails. I would like to see [the area] remain open. That is the challenge of the resource management plan. MH: A big challenge [for] the future, that is right. [END OF TAPE]
W. Edwin Riggs | Oral History
W. Edwin Riggs was interviewed on February 23, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his father’s experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip.
W. Edwin Riggs was interviewed on February 23, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his father’s experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip.
MH: Explain what your father, Ted Riggs, did around the [Grand Canyon]-Parashaunt [National] Monument on the Arizona Strip. I am [interested in] hunting and wildlife stories. ER: He was the [United States] government trapper on the [Arizona] Strip. His [area] covered from the Grand Canyon north in Arizona. He [did] predator control. He controlled the predators [by] spreading a lot of poison over the [Arizona] Strip for the cattlemen. [The government] had him trap the lions on the Kaibab [Plateau] as well as on Mt. Trumbull and the [Arizona] Strip area. As the population of the lions went down, the deer herds responded and [increased]. MH: What time frame was this? ER: [It] would have been in the 1940s, 1950s [and] up through the 1960s. He was out there thirty-seven years, I think. MH: What is the biggest [mountain] lion he ever trapped? ER: I have a picture of him standing holding a lion. He has his front shoulders and head over his chest and [the body] goes over his back. The [lion’s] tail drags the ground behind him. That was a big lion! MH: Were coyotes a major problem out there? ER: They were, and many of the cattlemen will verify that. I spent a lot of time with him trapping [them]. They used the 10-80 poison [predator repellant] at that time. We spread a lot of that [poison] in the winter and set [critter] gitters. They were called gitters. You pound a tube into the ground and put the bait on top of it with the .357 magnum shell in [loaded] with cyanide. When [the coyote] pulled up on the bait that we had put on top, [the shell] would go off in their mouth. They would go off and die. MH: You might add that while the coyote population may have been reduced some, there is still an adequate population [out] there today. ER: Plenty! They are an adaptive animal. I have trapped, hunted and called them. I have so much respect for that animal. They are so smart. They can dig your sets out because they know your traps are there. They can smell it. They will come in, work around, get it out and take your bait away. They are just smart. I have had them come in [on a] call and as soon as you move to get up into position to shoot, they look at you. The expression on their face is unbelievable. It is just like, “Oh, my gosh!” [Laughter] They turn inside out and are gone! MH: Besides the coyote and the [mountain] lion, what else was trapped out there? Foxes? ER: Yes, some foxes have been caught. But the fox really wasn’t [a] damaging factor. He caught a lot of bobcats, a lot of coyotes and [mountain lions]. The coyotes and [mountain] lions were the main predators. The coyotes really raised Cain with the cattlemen and the deer were hit hard by the [mountain] lions. The coyotes didn’t do damage to the deer. The [mountain] lions did and [it was] the other way around in the sheep herds. Back then, they used to have big sheep herds. They would drive them out there and then drive them clear back into Utah. They had the big driving lanes [where] they would move them through. Those coyotes would get in a herd of sheep and would just tear it to pieces. MH: They would go right through it! You grew up in Kanab [Kane County, Utah]. When did you move to St. George? ER: My wife and I moved to St. George in 1965. We left Kanab actually in 1963, the year we were married, but we [moved to] St. George in 1965. MH: Did your father ever move to St. George or did he stay in Kanab? ER: He lived in Kanab and Mesquite [Nevada]. He lived in Kanab and then after he and mother split, they divorced, and dad lived in Mesquite. We lived in St. George for two years when I was in elementary school [and moved] back to Kanab. But, other than that, he lived in Kanab and then finished up his life down in Mesquite. MH: It sounds like your father was reasonably successful in reducing the [mountain] lion population and coyotes [and] getting rid of the predators. What was the result of that? ER: The result was the deer herd responded, multiplied and grew. [It] gave [the] bucks time to mature. [Because of] the diet [heavy] in calcium deposits they have out there, the mass of their horns would get heavy. There were huge trophy bucks to be had out there. The cattlemen were happy because their calf crop survived. That was the reason. MH: That is interesting. You think the reason for the trophy animals on the [Arizona] Strip is due to the diet? What is in that diet? ER: I believe [so], yes. If they can get some maturity, six or seven years old, the body of those Arizona Strip bucks looks almost like a beef. I have shown you some pictures today of that big buck. At the time dad killed that buck in 1965, he was in [a] contest in Las Vegas [Nevada]. They used to have big buck contests down there. At that time, the Silver Nugget [Casino] had the best contest. Dad took that buck down. It hung in the tree for two days and it had its legs cut off at the first joint to field dress it. It hung for that period of time. I went with him down to Las Vegas to enter it into [the] contest and he took every prize down there. He took the longest horn, the most points, the widest skull [and] the heaviest deer. After hanging and being field dressed the way it was dressed, that buck weighed in at 234 pounds in Las Vegas. That was a big buck! MH: What happened to the big buck? Where is he now? ER: The head [was] bought by the Mule Deer Museum in Ennis, Montana. It hangs in that museum. It is owned by a gentleman by the name of Don Shofler. He has it hanging in that museum. I believe it was in 1991 [that] dad was inducted into the Mule Deer Hall of Fame as the first inductee. That was by the Rocky Mountain Mule Deer Federation. MH: [There] had to [be] a lot more than just that big buck. Apparently your dad took a lot of big bucks over the years. ER: Over the span of his lifetime, dad took at least forty thirty-inch mule deer. When you [can] get thirty inches [of horn span], that is a big buck. At first, when those bucks started maturing, people wouldn’t believe him that they were there. So he started bringing in some of the big ones during the season. All of a sudden, people in California heard about them. They came up and hired him as a guide. He would take [leave time] off [during] hunting [season]. He would guide hunters and try to put them into areas [where] there [were] big bucks. During that period of time, he would always wait until right at the end until after he had filled up his hundred before he would fill his tag. Over that period of time, he took forty thirty-inch [bucks]. I don’t have all of those heads but I do have a few of them. They are beautiful heads [and] I have the prettiest ones. He kept [the] big pretty ones. I [also] have a set of locked horns that he found out on the Kaibab [Plateau]. Jonas Brothers [Taxidermy] out of Denver [Colorado] was a big company. They scored them and said that [the horns] scored as the world record of locked horns because one is thirty-four inches wide and [the other] one is thirty-seven inches wide and they are locked. I have that [inaudible]. MH: What was the make and caliber of gun your dad used? ER: Dad used the old [Winchester] model .70-272 [and] swore by it. He used the .30-30 for years and years and years. But he [started using] that 272 and used [it for] absolutely everything from then on. He was a good shot [with] it, too. MH: [Did he use a] scope or iron sights? ER: Iron sights at first and I still have that gun, his first 272. Well, I gave it to my son. Then he went to a scope. For example, I had that iron sight and he had his new scope and we were hunting. [We] came out on a ridge and there was a big buck down next to a patch of oak. I can still see [the buck] plain as day and he said, “That is your buck. You take him.” I had the iron sights and so I shot. The buck didn’t move and I [had] hit way low on him. So I shot again. I hit up closer. The third time I shot and hit right under his feet. That startled him and he whirled and started around that oak. Dad shot [and] took him [down]. [Laughter] I still have that head. I have [it on display] down at Hurst’s Sport Center [in St. George]. He was thirty-six inches wide. MH: Where did your dad take [down the] big [buck] that is in Ennis, Montana? ER: He took it out on Kelly Point. MH: On Kelly Point, that far out? You [fellows] used to hunt that far out? That is way out on the Parashaunt. ER: A lot of the time we camped at [Fernard LeMoyne] “Buster” [Esplin’s in] those old cabins that are there by his place. If we didn’t stay there, a lot of times we stayed in the cabin up at Horse Valley. We would go in a week before the hunt and fix it all up [with] tarpaper [to] make it windproof and thatch the roof. Or we would stay down under Snap [Point] in that cabin down there. We did stay at Oak Grove and we have stayed at [Reed] Mathis’s old [Pine Spring] Ranch. Right now it is about to fall down. It is a shame. MH: There is some talk about going in and restoring [it]. ER: That would be good. MH: I think that may be done. What about other hunting on the [Arizona] Strip? I know there are some antelope [out there]. ER: There are. In fact, last year they estimated that one of the bucks running on the [Arizona] Strip was [of] world record class. Hunters were really trying to find him and I don’t know if they did. But there have been some [very] nice antelope taken off of there. Dad guided some hunters for desert bighorn [sheep] down under Snap [Point] and in the ledges down towards [inaudible]. MH: I thought they were reintroduced over on the Lake Mead National Recreation Area. Are the populations [increasing]? Are they starting to give out a lot of permits? ER: They are [giving] some permits. Years ago, they had one permit. I don’t know if it was a governor [who] purchased or [not], but dad guided [the group] down under Snap [Point] into those ledges clear down by the [Colorado] River and Lake Mead. Now that has been taken into the park so you can’t hunt where they hunted. But they didn’t kill one. They saw quite a few ewes and lambs but they didn’t see a big ram so they came out empty handed. MH: Talk about how much [of a] trophy producer the Arizona Strip has become in the last twenty years. ER: It is one of the most desired mule deer trophies and draws in the whole western United States. MH: How many permits do they allow a year? ER: I haven’t drawn [a permit] for seventeen years! Seventeen straight years I have put in and I haven’t [been] drawn. MH: With your last name and you can’t get a permit! ER: I can’t get a permit! My son has [been] drawn and just before dad died he drew two years in a row. The first year he drew [a] tag; that head is [on display at Hurst’s Sport Center in St. George]. [It is] thirty-six and a half inches wide. It is a big, beautiful buck. My son was with [my dad]. I was home sick with the [influenza]. I [went] out there that afternoon to try to hunt with them the next day and they came back into camp [with the buck]. My son drew the next year and so did dad. The [head] [my son] has in his home [is] thirty-two and a half inches wide. Dad’s was twenty-nine inches wide but [very] heavy, really heavy. But I haven’t drawn for seventeen years! I put in every year! [Laughter] MH: You might explain how that works. You have to put in to draw, [and] if you are out of state it is rather expensive to get a permit if you are selected. ER: It is. When we were first hunting it out there in the 1960s, they had 3,500 permits. Now they have forty or fifty. Until last year they held [permits for] out of state non-resident [and] only ten percent of the permits could be non-resident permits. Now they have changed the law and they will be tossed in the pot so it will be an equal basis for residents and non-residents. But yes, it is expensive now. We used to [get a permit to] hunt [on the Arizona Strip] for $25.00. Now it is about $275.00. MH: That is just for the permit? ER: Yes. Then you have to buy your license and [it] is $126.00. So it is expensive. MH: I understand that there are people who are paying substantial sums for the opportunity to hunt on the [Arizona] Strip and they use guides. Who is guiding out there now? ER: They have several guides; some [are] out of Kanab. The Bundys still do some guiding out there. I have had a lot of people want me to guide [but] I haven’t done it. I haven’t had the time plus, I have my own hiding holes [and] when I draw that permit [laughter] after seventeen years I want to go in there! But there are some guides out of Flagstaff [Arizona] and [the] Phoenix [Arizona] area that work with the local ranchers to gather information and they will bring their people up. Those people probably pay $10,000.00 or $15,000.00 for a guided hunt. They sell a governor tag every year. That person can hunt through archery, muzzle loader and rifle seasons. He has a whole lot of time to find his trophy. But he will probably [pay] $50,000.00 to $75,000.00 for that privilege. That money all goes back into [the United States Fish and] Wildlife Services. It has turned into quite an [event]. MH: As a hunting resource, do you think the [Arizona] Strip is doing alright? Is there something that should be done to bring it up? Do you think the program is about where it should be? ER: When they had a lot of permits, before they hunted it down, they pulled all the predator management off of it. Now you can go out there and there are not that many deer. MH: I have been told there are some big bucks, but the deer herd size has dropped considerably. ER: It has dropped and you have to have fawns to replace the big horns. So it is down. They don’t have a government trapper [for] mountain lions to go in and be paid [for] putting forth the effort to get those animals. The professional [mountain] lion hunters paid it. MH: You can get a permit to hunt [mountain] lions. ER: You can get a permit to hunt but your [mountain] lion hunters, your guides with hounds, hate it because [the mountain lions] can drop off [the Hurricane] Rim. [The hounds] will be running a [mountain] lion and he will drop off that rim into the [Grand Canyon National] Park and their hounds go with him. They cannot go down and take the [mountain] lion because it has dropped into the park. You never used to see [mountain] lions out there after dad went in and trapped [them]. Now you hear stories all the time [from] people out there on archery hunts [of mountain] lions coming to the water [or they have] seen a [mountain] lion along the road. I have nothing against the [mountain] lion as long as they are controlled. If you are going to control everything else you have to control them too. I don’t want them annihilated but there are too many of them for [the deer] herd to bounce back. MH: It sounds like your dad started sort of a legacy. You still like to hunt. It sounds like your sons are hunting. Is it a family affair when someone gets a permit now? ER: Yes! See those pictures up there? That was last year. I drew an elk tag across the river over on Unit 10 [on the Arizona Strip]. I went down with my son and my son-in-law. That big bull is the one I got down there. If one of us would ever draw again we would all go together as a family because we all love the [Arizona] Strip. We still go out and turkey hunt. My son archery hunts over on [Unit] 13-A. You cannot archery hunt on [Unit] 13-B which is the area where [the] big bucks are. MH: That is Parashaunt. ER: Yes, [Unit] 13-A is over on Mt. Logan and Mt. Trumbull. He archery hunts [there] and has come close to several big ones but didn’t present a shot. The buck was there and he was close enough to shoot if he could have gotten a clear shot with his bow. He hasn’t taken a big one with his bow down there. MH: When were the turkeys brought in? ER: I don’t remember but they seemed to be doing [fairly] well out there until three years ago. Then the population really dropped. I don’t remember what the [United States] Fish and [Wildlife Services] thought caused [the decline]. It was fun to drive up [to] the reservoirs and have fifty turkeys run up the hill away from you! I am glad they are there. The main predator on a turkey population is a bobcat, one of the cougars. MH: I am sure there are a bunch of them out on the [Arizona] Strip. ER: There will be now. MH: You can get a license and hunt bobcats legally. ER: Right, you can. MH: Is there much of that going on out there? ER: Not a lot of it, no. There is not much predator control out there now except for the old avid coyote callers. Of course, you can call in bobcats too, but if you call in a [mountain] lion and don’t have a tag, you cannot do anything about it. You have to let him go. But if you have a tag, you can call [the mountain] lions in. I don’t care to call them in. It makes the hackles [hairs] stand up on my neck but they will come! MH: Talk about when you [went] out hunting [and] set up a camp. How long would you [stay]? Obviously, until you got what you were after! It sounds like that was an adventure, just going out and camping. ER: [It] was a priority with us and my son was of legal age to go with me when we first were drawing those tags. It wasn’t hard to draw them. As soon as he [became] of age, back then [the earliest] age was fourteen, he could have a tag. He would have a tag, I would have a tag and dad would have a tag. I told him, “As long as you keep your grades up I will take you out with me on that hunt.” I went to the principal and told the principal [that] I would take him for the whole ten days. We would go out there and stay. His last principal said, “I just wish more dads would do that with their sons.” Now, with all the rules and regulations, I couldn’t get him out of school to do that. He would take his homework [out there]. We would hunt all day. While dad and I were fixing dinner, he would be doing his homework [by] the lantern. He was a straight A student, too. MH: Did you use horses or ATVs [All Terrain Vehicles]? ER: One time we used the horse, never [used] ATVs. One time we took horses out down under Snap [Point] and hunted that lower country but [we did this] just one time. We ended up not taking an animal until we went back to the old walk-six- inches-off-the-bottom-of-your-legs-while-you-are-out-there kind of a deal! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] ER: We went back to mainly [traveling on] foot [to] get [the scent of an animal] and track him down. We would check the waters and what [animals] had been in that night. If one [left] a sizable track, we would put on our backpacks and head off after it. MH: Did many of the local ranchers out there hunt? ER: Not that many. No, they didn’t. They would tell us where they had seen animals but they didn’t hunt that much. “Buster” Esplin and the Atkins never did. [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” Waring who was there — MH: Do you remember “Slim?” ER: Yes. MH: Now there was a character! ER: Yes, “Slim” and Mary [Beth Waring]. MH: Maybe they hunted off season! ER: Yes. They ate venison but they didn’t hunt trophies. [Laughter] Dad told me [a story about him]. You know how old “Slim” was, he always [used] very colorful language. He told dad there was just no way in hell he could call a coyote with that little squeaker box. “Slim” says, “Nothing will come in.” Dad said, “Well, you bring a gun anyway.” He said, “No, I don’t need a gun!” Dad said, “Bring a gun.” So “Slim” went in and got his .300 magnum. [Laughter] He said, “If one comes in I will get him. I still don’t believe you can do it.” So dad took him out north of the ranch and set him on the point of that knoll. Then he moved off to the side a little bit and called. Sometimes you [can] get [a coyote] to come in and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you get a group or a single [one]. It couldn’t have been timed any better. Five [coyotes] came in running neck and [neck]. One would get ahead and then [another] one would bust out ahead. They came running in there. Dad said he [was] giggling so hard and looked over at “Slim.” “Slim’s” eyes were as big as saucers! [Laughter] He turned around with that .300 magnum and started [shooting]. Dad said, “Hey, let them get on in.” [“Slim”] said, “Hell, with you. I am not letting them get any closer.” [Laughter] MH: Did he get [one]? ER: I don’t remember if he did or not. MH: [He] made a lot of noise at any rate! ER: He probably scared one to death with that [gun]! MH: That is a great story. What is the funniest thing that ever happened to you [while] out there hunting? ER: I can tell you a funny [story about] dad. I don’t know if you want this on the tape or not. MH: We can edit it. Don’t worry about it. ER: He needed to use the bathroom and there was an old abandoned trough there. He went over and sat on it just like you would a toilet seat and let it drop. When it dropped all of a sudden ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. He dropped it down on a big old rattlesnake! [Laughter] MH: I bet he moved in a hurry! [Laughter] ER: He left! [Laughter] We have had some joyful times out there! MH: Do most of the hunters who go out there know and understand the [Arizona] Strip? Do they get into trouble or have problems? ER: Anymore, I think most of them understand. We never did take four-wheelers out there. We never have. I haven’t been out there hunting for so long. I haven’t been out to see if the four-wheelers are doing damage out there. They can really do some damage if they are spinning [the] tires. MH: They can if they are used inappropriately. ER: We always used to pull off the road and tuck our pickup out of sight when we would call coyotes. We never did any damage, but I don’t know if you can even pull off [the road] out there now. I think you are supposed to stay right on the [road]. MH: You are supposed to stay on the roads although you can turn around, I suspect. I have a couple of questions I always ask everybody I talk to. The first one is sort of odd. What is it about the Arizona Strip that all of you people who have spent any time out there at all [feel that] it is a special place to you, special above and beyond all other [places? To people who have never been there, they really don’t understand this tie to the [Arizona] Strip. To a person, everybody I have talked to has a very soft spot for the Arizona Strip. Any thoughts on why that is? ER: There is no place like it. [Laughter] I don’t know how to explain it other than it is desolate. You are out there a long ways. I learned from dad. Dad would almost carry a whole new truck in the back of his truck so, when he broke down, he could fix it. My son laughs at me today because, when I head [to] the [Arizona] Strip, I am prepared to be in trouble. I take plenty of food, plenty of water and I never leave without at least two spare [tires] for my outfit. You asked about the funniest thing that happened to me out there. I guess it isn’t funny, but it is now. I took my son and one of his friends and headed out. We were going to go [coyote] calling. We went down into Mule Canyon and [it] is a rocky, rough son-of-a-gun and broke a tire. So I was down to one spare. We got back out of there and went over [to] Snap. [This] was before Snap Canyon had been bladed very well and it was a rocky son-of-a-gun. I broke another tire. So I had no spare [tires]. We came back up on top and were right at “Buster” [Esplin’s], right at Parashaunt, and ran a rock through another tire. No spare [tire and] it was dark by then. We were headed back in. I was just fit to be tied. I didn’t know what we were going to do. I had a roll of duct tape and decided [to] see if I [could] fill [the] hole with duct tape. I wadded it up with the sticky side out and made a ball of it. The hole was a good-sized hole. I wadded up a good ball of [duct tape and] stuck it in. I always carried one of those little pumps that you [can] plug into the cigarette lighter. I [would] pump [the] tire up and it would spit [the] ball of tape out! I would add more [tape] to [the ball] and put it back in. [After] the third or fourth time, it stayed. I pumped it up and figured, if I have to do this every mile, it is better than walking seventy-five miles! [Laughter] We came [back to St. George] with that wad of duct tape in there. MH: You [came] all the way [back] to town? That is a good seventy [or] seventy-five miles! ER: [We came] all the way back to town. I went out [to my driveway] the next morning and [the tire] hadn’t lost a pound of pressure! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] That is one for Ripley[s Believe It Or Not]! ER: Can you believe [we drove back] on a duct tape plug? MH: The other question I always ask, and before I do I will throw a pre-question in. Do you think they ought to pave the roads in the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument? ER: I do not think they should pave the roads in the monument. MH: Fair enough. Now the [other] question. Now that the monument exists and is a fact, do you have any ideas on how it ought to be managed and administered? ER: I have always been an advocate of multiple uses. I don’t think the hunting should be taken away from it. I don’t think the managed cattle grazing should be taken away from it. I don’t think the game animals should be taken away from it. I think it should have multiple uses. I think [the land] should be used and enjoyed. That is why people love it ─ because you can get out there. You can just be there. Yet it can be utilized by the cattlemen, by the hunters, by environmentalists, [just] anybody. I could be an environmentalist myself. I just don’t go to the extreme. I will do whatever I can do to protect it. [When] we are going down a road and we see somebody’s beer can or pop bottle, we always stop and pick it up. That is one thing dad taught us. You don’t leave any trash out [there]. We take care of it. I think that is why people love it: because they enjoy it, they are a part of it and it has a place in your heart. [END OF TAPE]
Charles "Chuck" Kenneth Simmons | Oral History
Charles “Chuck” Kenneth Simmons was interviewed on January 17, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences of living on the Arizona Strip at Pakoon Springs.
Charles “Chuck” Kenneth Simmons was interviewed on January 17, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences of living on the Arizona Strip at Pacoon Springs.
MH: “Chuck” lives in Scenic, Arizona. How did you become involved with Pacoon [Springs]? CS: Before we bought the place, we used to go out there to help the old boy. We [were] cowboys on weekends. MH: Was that Dell Adams? CS: [It was] Dell Allen. Before that, we used to go up and help old Slats Jacobs. We were weekend cowboys is what we were. We went out and helped him. When Dell started getting older, he decided to sell. We didn’t think we could afford to buy it. He made us a deal [so] we could [and] we took it over. We had to take the ranch over [with] him. [We] both [were there] for awhile. Then Dell left and we stayed there and enjoyed it. MH: Did you continue to ranch it? CS: Yes, we continued and developed a lot of [the] property on Pacoon Springs. There were very few acres that could [be] irrigated. We developed those springs. [We] put sprinklers in [and] raised hay. MH: This [would be] the hayfields down below the big pond. Did you build the house there? CS: [We] built the house [but] never did finish it. [I] have been building on it for twenty years. It was livable inside. MH: Yes, it is a nice house. [It has] a nice deck on the back of it. What sort of cattle did you run? CS: We ran Brahma and Charolais cross. MH: Brahma and Charolais, that is an interesting cross-[breed]. CS: That is what Dell had when we went there and we kept it that way. We got a little more out of the Brahma than what he had in it. It seemed like back thirty, forty years ago all the brands [of] cattle were so wild that you couldn’t even see them. [The ranchers] claimed people would come in there and rustle them. There wasn’t a boy that couldn’t rustle. We started calming the cattle down over the years and started to get quite a bit of the Brahma out of them. But we still kept the Brahma in because they could handle [the] desert real good. MH: What was your brand? CS: We had two or three brands. But our [main] brand was a Lazy L. MH: Where did that come from? CS: It came from Dell Allen. MH: Dell had that [brand] originally? CS: [Yes], I think Dell probably had that in [Las] Vegas [Nevada] before he came out [to the Arizona Strip]. Dell Allen bought the place [from] Wayne Yates. I don’t think that brand was there [at that time]. We bought the brand [from] Dell. There were two partners, the Donohues and myself. Donny [Donohue] and his wife had a brand. My wife [Jacqueline “Jackie” (Hardy) Simmons] and I had a brand and we had a brand for the ranch. MH: You mentioned the name Slats Jacobs. Who was that? CS: Slats was one of the old-time ranchers out there [who] moved into this country [on] the ranch that Blakes have now. We call [it] Jacob’s Well. Slats started that ranch. Before that, he was down at Balance Rock [Canyon]. MH: [That is] closer to Lake Mead [Nevada]. CS: Yes. Prior to that, he and his brother, Jerry [Yates], were where the Nay Ranch is [now]. MH: Is Marilyn Nay still there? CS: Yes. Marilyn is still there and Clark Bingham [has] the other ranch that is right there. Jerry and Slats were there. From what I understand, they are the ones [who] brought the Brahma cattle into this country. MH: What about the Tassi Ranch further down the road? CS: Tassi [Ranch belonged to] Eddie Yates. Eddie came in the early 1900s. He was a small gentleman [and] rather wiry. The Tassi [Ranch owned by Jim Whitmore] and Eddie Yates had all the Pacoon Basin. MH: They [owned] it all? CS: [They had] Pacoon, the Tassi and all of it. When Wayne Yates, who was [Eddie’s] son, [was discharged from] the service in World War II, they split up. Wayne took the Pacoon and the upper [land] and Eddie stayed down below. MH: Are they still ranching there today? CS: I think it is closed down. After “Ed” Yates passed away, his daughter and son-in-law had it for awhile. Then they sold it to Smith down in Kingman [Arizona] and [he] had it for awhile. He used to come up from Kingman. He had one of those old amphibious vehicles and he would drive across Lake [Mead] and come into Tassi [Ranch]. Then — MH: To where? Over around Pearce Ferry? Over that way? CS: Over to Meadview. He left that amphibious [vehicle] in one of those old towns. He ran cattle down below, between there and Kingman. He kept that amphibious car up there. He would come up and run it across and come into Tassi [Ranch]. He always kept some horses there. MH: Did you use horses or ATVs [All Terrain Vehicles] to gather [round up] your cattle? CS: We used horses for a long time and then we [were] lazy. We never used ATVs to gather cattle. The weather was too rough. We basically water-trapped them. We controlled all the water and set up traps. In the summertime you could trap every cow on there in three days so why ride for them! MH: Yes, [get] them in and you [have] them. Where was your market? Did you truck [the cattle] out to Mesquite [Nevada]? CS: We usually hauled them to Cedar City [Iron County, Utah]. MH: You took them up to Cedar [City to the] auction. CS: We shipped some to California one time, years ago. We still had the [very] wild cattle that we bought [from] Dell Allen. They were wild! They had an address in Mesquite and the State of Nevada Veterinarian got a hold of me. He said, “You have to ship the cows through the auction. In Bakersfield [California] you have banks. We have to come out and check you out.” I said, “I guess I will probably have to get somebody else to do it. We are not in Nevada.” He said, “That is alright. We will do it.” I said, “Good.” So we talked over the telephone and set up an appointment. I said, “Let me tell you. We haven’t [had] this ranch too long and the place is [fairly well] run down. The corrals and the chutes are run down. I don’t know if [the] chutes would handle the wild cows we have. These are fairly wild.” He said, “I have a brand new squeeze chute. It is a portable one. We will bring that out.” So they came out. We met them in Mesquite and all of the cows were up at Wayne’s Well. We went in [on] that old rough road for [about] five miles. The roads were not near as good as they are today, either. We got set up and started catching cattle. [During] one full day up there, we ran twenty-some head through that squeeze chute and tore that squeeze chute completely up! [We] tore the corrals up! We had to rebuild the corrals a couple of times. He had two young women [with] him and there was Donny and me. That was all [the cattle] we got through there. He said, “We will have to go into town and we will be back at about nine o’clock in the morning. We have to go all the way back to [Las] Vegas.” I said, “We are going into town, tonight, too.” The next morning at about six o’clock he called me and said, “We came [back] and checked.” We still had another eighty head [out] there to run through. He had to get a better squeeze chute than what he had. He said, “You know, all these checked out good. I think you have a good herd there.” [Laughter] He said, “I think that must have been a mistake.” [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] [He thought]: I have had enough of that! Did anybody ever get hurt out there gathering cows? CS: We [were] thrown off the horses a few times. We [were] run over. Loren Bunker was an old gentleman. He may [have] passed away [by] now. He was in his seventies [when] he was out there ranching. He had the [ranch] up above where Clark Bingham [inaudible]. He would come out there, run up cattle and stand right at the gate and cut those old wild cows out. I was up there one day to help him. He said, “Just get out of the way. I will get them.” He stood there in that gate and those old cows came through there. Just scared the tar out of me! After he got through I said, “Loren, you could get killed out there in the middle of that gate cutting those cows. Get behind the gate or something.” He said, “Oh, they will run over the gate if I do that. Besides that, the Lord protects me.” He was a very religious man. About two weeks [later] I saw him. He was all scruffed up, all over. He could hardly walk. I said, “My God, Mr. Bunker, what happened?” He said, “The Lord must have been taking a nap!” [Laughter] MH [Laughter] Who developed the water the way it is now at Pacoon? Was that you? CS: The water was there. Eddie Yates started developing [it]. Before Eddie Yates, I remember being in Pacoon but I don’t remember too much about it. Eddie started doing it. Dell did some of it and we finished developing most of it. But [the plants] have all grown back up. [The water is] choked off now. I was out a few weeks ago [and] I don’t know where those [tulles] come from. MH: Yes. It [has] grown up in [all] the ponds [out] there. CS: It chokes that water off. As far as the amount of water there, it was developed wrong anyway. They developed all the ponds right over the top of the springs. Ponds need to be developed below the springs [so] the spring can freely flow into the pond and [flow out] from there. MH: I have to ask this question. I was out there and I never found the alligator. CS: Somebody told me that someone went in there and shot it. MH: Let me back up. Was there an alligator out there? CS: Yes, there was an alligator there. MH: How did that come to be [there]? CS: A friend of ours brought him from Georgia, he or [she], whatever the alligator was. I never could find anyone to sex it for me. He brought it from Georgia in the back of a jeep. He came out here along in November to go elk hunting in Colorado. They drove out in a jeep and brought this little ‘gator about that long. We threw him in one of those ponds. The other three people said it would never live. I said I think it will because [the] water is warm. I had raised a couple of ‘gators when I was a [boy]. We were in a colder country than [this]. Anyway, I thought it would live. We had [the] pond that [is] beside the gate completely cleaned. They put it in the pond up by the house. I never saw it. The pond was grown over quite a bit and a ‘gator that long you wouldn’t [be able to] see. We never saw it. My wife was afraid it went down to what we called the warm pond that we used for a swimming hole. She wouldn’t let the [children] go down there and swim anymore. [She was] afraid that ‘gator had gone down there. She made them go out the front gate and swim in that pond. [It is] completely grown over. There is nothing there anymore. We were out there one day and, sure enough, there was a ‘gator out there in [the] pond. She moved the [children] out of that pond! [Laughter] But the ‘gator wasn’t all that long. That [was] a year or so [later]. MH: But it did survive? CS: It survived. There [were] fires out in Pacoon in the late 1980s. I don’t even remember what year, maybe the early 1990s or late 1980s. They sent helicopters in [to] bail the water out of the big pond we had there. Maybe it was the early 1980s or maybe the mid-1980s. I don’t know but it is quite awhile back. My partner said a couple of times, “Oh, they bailed that ‘gator out of there.” I said, “They never bailed that ‘gator out of that pond. They might have scared him to death but they never bailed it out.” Anyway, it went on through another year or so and nobody had ever seen the ‘gator. We were out one spring branding [cattle] out in the corral and [heard a] big old beep, [whatever] you call it, like a bullfrog. My partner said, “The bullfrogs are out early. That sounds like a big one.” I said, “That wasn’t a bullfrog. That is that ‘gator.” A ‘gator makes a deeper noise than a frog; kind of a grunt. We started looking for it and never saw it. The ground was hard around the ponds and [it] never left any tracks. Then we started raising ostriches out there. MH: I didn’t know you had ostriches. CS: We would go down to feed the ostriches and [see] a big jackrabbit there. He had been getting in my grain bin. I shot [him] with a .22. I fed the ostriches, came back up and forgot all about [the] rabbit. The next afternoon I could smell that rabbit. He started stinking from lying [on the ground]. It was close to the house and it was almost dark. I thought: I will go over and haul that rabbit off. Then I thought: no, I will wait. I got up the next morning, went over there and I never smelled anything. I [started] looking. The ‘gator got [the] rabbit and went back leaving some tracks. Then we started looking for him. We found him. MH: How big was he? CS: The last time I saw him [the ‘gator] was fairly close to ten feet [long]. MH: Oh, good heavens! CS: Yes. We had an old drag-line out there. We had some hogs and decided to butcher. We used the drag-line for a boon to kill the hogs and work on them. We dropped the guts right there on the ground. Then we swung the drag-line around and started to clean up our hogs. We were going to haul the guts off the next morning. The ‘gator came up and [carried] them off into the water. So we knew he was right there. We started looking for him. We started taking pictures of him. We would go out and sit on [the] drag-line and throw [food] out. He would come out and get it. He started going down into [the] bigger ponds. I was working in [Las] Vegas. I went to one of the markets and picked up three or four whole chickens in plastic sacks and threw them in the back of the truck [to] let them ripen up. We went out to the ranch [with] some good cameras and went down by the pond. [We] put some stakes four feet apart and then threw those chickens out there. He could smell those chickens and came out. We got up on the bank and watched him. That was four or five years before we left there. He was eight and a half feet then and [had] pressed two of those stakes flush [to the ground]. He got [even] bigger after that. MH: Did you ever have any trouble with him going after a person? CS: No. In fact, I think the ‘gator was probably as scared of anybody as a person was of [him]. [The ‘gator] wintered out in the pond by the front gate. It had a hole out there and [had] dammed in. He would come down from the other ponds in the spring. My hired man was lying underneath the pickup working on the bottom of the [truck]. The ‘gator came down the driveway and walked right by him. He was looking at him. He didn’t move too much and the ‘gator never paid a bit of attention to him. [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] CS: I had it fenced off around my house to keep the horses [and] the cattle out. They were eating my wife’s rose [bushes] and breaking the propane line. One night I woke up and I heard something outside. I said, “My God, somebody has left the gate open and those horses are in here.” I heard it out front. I walked out the front door with a flashlight. I didn’t see any horses. I turned around and walked back in the house and just got back in bed [when] I could hear [the noise] around on the east side. So I walked out there. [I] looked. Nothing. I went back in the house again and went to the bathroom. [I] just came out of the bathroom when I heard something out back. When I walked out the backdoor [this] time my little dachshund bounded out the door. He could hear something too. He [went] out the door and made a u-turn and came right back in real quick! I walked out there and looked and I couldn’t see anything. I thought: God, what is making that noise. I got up the next morning and I could see where that ‘gator had been tracking right around the house. He had come right around the house and [gone] back to the pond. That is the only time he was up there. I kept ostrich pens there at the house [for] little birds. I never saw him up there fooling [around] with them. MH: You said you were butchering hogs. Did you keep some pigs out there? CS: No, we raised these [inaudible]. MH: You raised them. You didn’t just let them run wild? CS: We did at one time, yes. Right after we bought the ranch, we didn’t have enough cows to support it [so] we bought a bunch of hogs. We were going to raise hogs and let them clean the springs. We fenced them off and [went] up to Enterprise [Washington County, Utah] to get a bobtail truck full of potatoes and a little grain. We had a big cooker out there [and] we would cook up some feed for them. We got tired of fooling [around] with them and turned them loose. They ran down in the wash for a year or so until we could catch them. Finally, [we] shot them. MH: They will survive in the darndest territories. CS: My father-in-law said a [rancher who] was there back in the 1930s [lived] in Mesquite and he had a bunch of hogs out there. The old man made a deal with him to buy a truckload of them. They set up a time to go and get them. I can’t remember who [he] was now, Dwight White, maybe. White was his last name. But anyway, the old man went out there and pulled in at Pacoon. There wasn’t anything around there. Nobody [was] there. [There were] old corrals here and there. [He] walked around and looked at the hog pen and couldn’t find [any pigs]. [He thought]: that lying old sucker, there are no hogs around here. He sat around there for awhile underneath the trees and here the old boy came. “You came out to get those hogs! Are you ready to load them?” The old man said, “Yes, I have been ready for a couple of hours.” He said, “Well, let’s go get them then.” He walked over to one corral, it isn’t there now. [He] walked over and took a .30-30 and shot about three times in the air. It wasn’t two or three minutes [until] that whole corral was full of hogs! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] CS: They came up out of the wash up there. He said, “God, how did you do that?” He said, “Oh, they think it is chow time. I have been feeding them burros and they think it is chow time.” [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] CS: I know there are people today [who] don’t want to hear that, but that is a fact. MH: Sure! Did you have a lot of burros down there? CS: Quite a bunch. We raised two or three [burros] on the ranch. MH: From wild ones that were already there? CS: Don Whitney from down in the other valley was running the [inaudible] ranch at Gold Butte. I guess somebody had been there chasing burros. There was a little colt not old enough to even be weaned and it [was] crippled. It [had] run a big stick through its leg. It was all crippled up and he brought it in to the ranch. I was working in [Las] Vegas and my wife was [at the ranch]. Don asked her if she wanted to try to save [the] burro. She said, “Yes, I will try to save it.” She got a bottle and mixed up some milk, made a collar for it and hung it on the clothesline like a dog with [inaudible] around there. I came in the next night. I [noticed that] the wound was festered. I doctored it and she fed [the burro [and later] fed it grain. We turned it loose and it wouldn’t go anywhere. MH: It stayed right there? CS: She got to be quite a pet. She got to be a pest! MH: [Laughter] They can do that! CS: We had a little two-and-a-half gallon bucket [and] she would [eat] the grain [out of it]. If you didn’t feed [her] when [she] wanted [to be] fed,[she] would get the bucket, pick it up, come around and walk over to you. If you didn’t make a move it would swing her head and [knock] your feet right out from under you. Boom! MH: [Laughter] [To] let you know [she] wasn’t happy! CS: Then we got mad. [We] took “Jenny” and an old appaloosa horse I had up to the well. We got tired of fooling [around] with them at the ranch [and] we would turn them loose at the well. Some quail hunters came in and they couldn’t even stop and hunt quail. Old “Jenny” would go over and put her mouth on the knob of [the] camper, turn the handle, open the door, stick her head in and reach [for] whatever she [could] get. MH: Did they hunt a lot of quail around there? CS: They did for a long time. [There were] a lot of quail in there. In fact, there is still a lot of quail in there. We would feed them at the ranch. We would sit over on the east side of the house, in the shade in the evening, and throw grain out. It was nothing to have 400 or 500 quail right there. You could see them coming from every direction in the long evenings. My wife would go out every day and feed them. MH: Did you have any [children] at the ranch? CS: We have [children]. We didn’t have any children when we lived out there. They were grown and gone by then. MH: That would be quite a playground for [children]. CS: This is the way we branded calves for awhile. We [would] cut the calves out and put them in the round corral and tell the [children], “We want them [brought to us] one at a time.” MH: [Laughter] [You] had your own rodeo! CS: It was a rodeo! MH: I bet it was. CS: I had three [children] and my partner had two. My partner’s brother had three. We would [have] seven or eight [children] there. We would have one or two other people on the weekend, seven, eight, nine, ten [children] in the corral and maybe ten or fifteen calves. They were fairly small ones. They would go in there and get them. Oh God, that was a rodeo! We would sit there and watch and laugh! There might be a big [calf] in there and we would have to go in and rope or throw the big one for them. There would be four or five of the [children] holding those calves and [they] couldn’t get [them] down. MH: They can be hard to throw [down]. Did the burros compete with the cows for forage? CS: There weren’t that many burros around there. The last year or two, before I left out there, a bunch came in and ate my hay. Those ate probably 100 bales of hay. They tore [the] fence down and ate every bit of it. They would come in at night. I drove out [there] and caught eight or ten [of them]. MH: Did you run your bulls with your cows? CS: Yes, year round. MH: So you were calving year round? CS: We calved year round. We sold a lot of calves [for use as] roping calves. We had people come out there and buy them. We would sell eight or ten calves a month year round. That is about [how many] they wanted for little rodeos, people [who] had little rodeo arenas. We could sell eight to ten [calves] almost anytime [someone] needed them. MH: Did you have a generator out there for power? CS: We [used a] solar [system]. MH: How did that work? CS: Wonderfully! I don’t know how we did it. We didn’t have anything for awhile. I had an old generator if we needed [it], but we never [used it]. Until we built the house, we did 90% of our cooking outside. I had a generator [and] I would run it to the house. I don’t remember what year it was, but I sold [some] property in Mesquite. [I] took the money and invested [it and] put about $30,000.00 into a solar system. I had everything [electrical appliances] in the house that I had [in our] home in Mesquite. MH: [So] it worked just fine. What about weather? I know it is hot out there in the summer. What about the cold winters? CS: It is a little cooler than Mesquite [but] I doubt if it is any cooler than St. George. Right at the ranch, where the house and springs are, [it] very seldom ever froze. The springs never froze. The water coming out of there [is] 78° year round and won’t freeze. Sometimes a little ice would get around the edge. But you could drop off the hill over where the ostrich pen was or down where the hayfields were [and] the ice froze that thick. MH: How did you get in the ostrich business? CS: That is a separate -
MH: [Laughter] CS: They were hassling [us] so much [when we were] trying to run cattle [that we] didn’t know from one month to the next if we were going to have a livestock permit in six months or not. We decided [with] the Endangered Species Act, the desert tortoise [situation], we [would] try [ostriches]. It [would] be something to supplement and keep the ranch going. We just went in a little late. MH: Did they do alright down there? CS: Raising them was no problem. I gave away 500 ostriches when we — MH: You had that many down there? CS: Yes. MH: Did you keep them penned or let them run? CS: No, [they were] penned. I don’t know how [the] BLM [Bureau of Land Management] would [act] on a permit for ostriches. MH: [Laughter] I haven’t an answer for that one either! That is in the Desert [Tortoise] Reserve down there. Did you ever see any turtles? CS: Very, very few. In the almost thirty years that I was there at that ranch, I never saw a desert tortoise on the private property part of that ranch. Up the road about four or five miles I saw a few. Up on the ridge between Cottonwood and Grand Wash there were a few. There are not many desert tortoises in that country. They can say all they like to say, but there isn’t. There are some in areas, but how does a turtle burrow into rock? MH: There is a lot of rock down there, I will tell you that. What about bighorn sheep? CS: [They are] not down that low. MH: They don’t come down that low even [for] the water source there? CS: No, [I] have never seen any there. We had a few exotic sheep on the private property for awhile, but we got tired of them and let them run. MH: What about Indians and archaeological sites? Were there any around there? CS: [There are] a lot of [items]. MH: I know there are a lot of petroglyphs over by Whitney Pockets. CS: There are petroglyphs right on top here. There are some Indian caves there. That is up, not straight east, [but] down a little bit southeast out on that corner overlooking that — MH: [There is] a little knoll there right at Pacoon. I walked up on top of it and there are a bunch of rocks piled up sort of in a semi-circle there. CS: Those are lookout places. You can go to those, from one to the other, and everyone you find has a different view of [the] different valleys coming in there. MH: They were there when you got there and they have been there long before. CS: Yes, and [there are] rock walls. I don’t know where those rock walls came from. Did you see the rock walls? MH: Yes. CS: There is a rock wall that you really have to look for. It goes around the whole west side of that knoll. It has been washed out and pushed over but, if you look for it, you can see it in spots. Down where the hayfield was, there is one that comes up the hill. That rock wall came all the way around right up there [from] here to this end and down this end. Around this west side of that knoll — MH: What would have been the purpose of it? CS: I have no idea. There is a rock wall across the wash to the east going up that hill. MH: I wonder if it could have been [placed there] before the turn of the century. [Maybe] somebody didn’t have money for wires so they were trying to build a stock fence. CS: Before the turn of the century I think the only thing that was out there was a bunch of outlaws and they were not going to build a fence anyway! MH: No! CS: I don’t know who built the fences but I think it might go back to the Indians. I know Wayne Yates never built them. I know from what some of the other people tell me that the people [who were] back in there [earlier] never built it. In fact, Loren Bunker told me that he remembers seeing them when he was down there as a [boy] in the early 1920s. I know Dell Allen never had enough energy to build them! MH: Probably not. Did any of the local Paiute [Indians] from over around Moapa [Nevada] and Mesquite ever come down into that country when you were there? CS: [Norman] “Norm” Tom [was] there. [He] is [Keith] Nay’s son-in-law. He was down there [for] a little [while] but he doesn’t know any more about the history of those Indians than I do. He may [know], but he [has] never said anything about them. MH: How long have the Nays been at Whitney Pass? CS: Keith and Marilyn [Nay] have been there for quite awhile. Keith’s dad was there before that. They probably go back to the 1930s. MH: That far [back]? CS: Yes, maybe [in] the 1940s. I don’t know. MH: If we are going back to the 1930s, did anybody have a still down that way? CS: “Ed” Yates did. MH: [Laughter] CS: There is one of [the] springs at Seven Springs [that is] called Whiskey Spring. Now, where did it get that name? MH: [Laughter] I guess they had a ready market in Mesquite! I don’t know. CS: [In] Mesquite and St. George. MH: Yes, St. George would be right there. CS: [If] you go back to the 1930s, there wasn’t much in Mesquite. MH: No, there wasn’t. CS: I think the first time I was there was [in] 1950 and there wasn’t much there. MH: A couple of service stations and that was about it. CS: “Ed” Yates made whiskey down there. MH: What about outlaws? Did you hear any stories about [outlaws] hiding out down there for one reason or another? CS: Bill Garrett was down there. MH: Bill Garrett? CS: [He] was down at Gold Butte. That is over in [inaudible]. MH: Wasn’t he the [fellow] who [shot] Billy the Kid? [Sheriff Pat Garrett probably killed Billy the Kid July 14, 1881 in Lincoln County, New Mexico.] CS: I think so. He was there and didn’t die until in the 1950s. [Bill] Shanley was up on top [and] that is the reason he was there. I think every one of those old-timers [who] came in and settled [on the Arizona] Strip was an outlaw or [at least] most of them were. I think most of them were running from the law [and that] was the reason they [would] have been there. Most of the herds that were started up in there were all started out of the [cattle] that [Preston] Nutter lost when he came through there. MH: That is right. Nutter swam a bunch of cows across the Colorado [River] and took them up through there. CS: Twice [he took them] right up through Pacoon and up Nutter’s Twist. MH: Is that the way he came, up through Pacoon? CS: Yes. At Pacoon there is a watering place. MH: I have learned more in a half hour than I have researching for two weeks. I really appreciate [this information]. CS: I heard [that], back in the 1930s when Slats Jacobs and those [men] came in here, there weren’t too many fences in the country. Slats brought the first Brahma bulls in here. MH: He was the first one to bring Brahma [cattle] in. CS: As far as my knowledge goes, [he brought them] down in that Pacoon basin. The story I have heard is that one of Slats’s Brahma bulls ended up [on the] Tassi [Ranch], Eddie Yates’s place. “Ed” had never seen [cattle] like [that with a] big hump [and] thought [it] was some creature. He let the word out. He was in town and said that whoever belonged to that animal better come get him. “It is a big old bull. He better get him out of there before he breeds some of my cows and I will have to shoot him.” [It is] said that old Slats got a brand new rope and a brand new knife. He [went] down to “Ed” and said, “Here, you will need these.” “Ed” was supposed to have said, “Is that the branding rope to rope and cut that bull?” [Slats] said, “The rope is to rope a bull but the knife is to cut you loose when you have had enough.” [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] I imagine that would be a job! What were they running for cows then? Herefords? Durhams? CS: I think he had some Herefords in here, I really don’t know. Herefords were the big [breed] back in the days. They must have had some. But I don’t know anything about cattle. I know my wife’s dad still had quite a few Herefords in the 1950s. He was getting away from them a little bit. MH: The Brahma does better in that heat. CS: The Brahma does better in the heat. I think about everybody is away from Herefords now. Herefords got into terrible trouble [by] having eye cancer, pink eye and some [diseases] that other breeds don’t have. MH: Let me ask you a question. You have been down in that country for thirty years. Now, for better or for worse, it is [the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument. What would you like to see them do in the way they manage that monument? CS: To me, I don’t think a country is any good unless you can see it [and] unless you can get into it. I don’t think the country should be closed off to a lot of [activities]. Tassi [Ranch] is on [National] Park Service [land]. That is a different situation. But as far as the Pacoon ranch and some old ranches like that, they ought to get them back like [they] were. The Pacoon ranch would be a wonderful place for a visitor center of some sort. MH: I am glad to hear you say that because that is sort of what they are looking at. Making [it] an interpretive site [where] people come in, look around and find out a little of the history [of] what went on down there. CS: That [ranch] would be good for that. Pacoon is not too far out and you have all that water. [You could] clean [the] place up a little bit. We had it in [fairly] good shape [but] it doesn’t take long [for it to be overgrown]. MH: Then people don’t respect it. CS: A few weeks ago I went down to find that alligator skull. We went down and had a little picnic. I couldn’t even get into the wash. I can’t walk anymore [or] get out and hike. I am not even sure I could walk up and down that wash without going through the brush. I was on a four-wheeler and figured if the ‘gator was shot there that the skull would be somewhere [near]. The coyotes would probably drag it down into that wash to take care of it. I wanted to run up and down the wash and look for it. I couldn’t even get in there and move up and down [the] wash. I would like to have that ‘gator skull to hang on my fence post. MH: I will let the [BLM] management know that you have first claim on the alligator skull.
John Snyder | Oral History
John Snyder was interviewed on February 15, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
John Snyder was interviewed on February 15, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: When did your family [become] involved with the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument on the Arizona Strip? JS: If you go back to [my grandfather] John Peter [Snyder], it would have been in the late 1800s. MH: Way back! JS: Yes, somewhere along in 1870. MH: When they moved out there, was it for ranching or farming? JS: John Peter was a miner. MH: Did he work in the Grand Gulch Mine? JS: No. He had [the] Snyder Mine out on Kelly Point. Then he ran up and down those canyons. We still find rock monuments [that were] his. MH: He was prospecting and filing claims? JS: Yes. MH: Did he ever have a filing that produced any ore? JS: He always told his wife [Anna Marie (Rasmussen) Snyder] that he was going to strike it rich! I guess they saw some of it. But he was murdered down there close to the [Colorado] River years ago. MH: Wow! Tell that story. I haven’t heard that. JS: I don’t know a lot of [the] details. Feldon could probably tell you [more]. I should have come more prepared with dates and [information]. MH: Just tell what you can. JS: He [went] home to Jensen [Sevier County] Utah and told his family that he had struck it rich and gave them some gold. He said that he would be gone another year and he would be back. He went back down and worked his [mine], wherever it was, for a year. He crossed the [Colorado] River to the south and came out [on] an Indian reservation. When they found him, his mule was on one side of the river and his body was on the other side. He had been killed. Nobody knew who did it or what had happened. MH: Were you ever able to find out who perpetrated it? Obviously, he had been robbed. JS: Yes. MH: Was [this] before 1900? JS: No, he was killed after 1900. I don’t know [when]. I can look in some paperwork and find out. MH: With him gone, how did your family wind up out on the [Arizona] Strip? JS: When my dad was probably three or four years old, [John Peter Snyder’s] son, Ephraim Albert, and his family, moved out to Mt. Trumbull. It would have been 1918 or 1919. MH: Just about [the time of] World War I or just after. Did they homestead? JS: They homesteaded some property over on Mt. Trumbull and kept it until their family was raised. Dad went into the service at the beginning of World War II. He would send his [entire] paycheck home. The family lived off of half of it and put away the other half. [They] saved up and bought Penn Valley with the [money they saved]. MH: [That is] on the Parashaunt. Is that where you are still ranching today? JS: Yes. MH: Did your dad go to school at Mt. Trumbull? JS: His total education was [through the] eighth grade at Mt. Trumbull. MH: That is as far as Mt. Trumbull went in those days. [Then] you came along and he dragged you out on the [Arizona] Strip? JS: There were ten of us [children] so there was a herd that he raised out there! Dad was a hundred years out of his time so we lived a [fairly] meager existence. MH: It wasn’t exactly [the] malts and fast cars in St. George! JS: [Laughter] No! MH: Were you ranching at that time? JS: Yes. MH: What breed of cattle were [you] were running in those days? JS: He had mostly Hereford cross. But we tried some different [breeds] through the years. We tried some Barzona [cattle] in the early 1970s, but mostly it was Hereford cross or milk cows. MH: What is the brand? JS: A F on the left hip. MH: I guess you grew up on a horse when you were out there. JS: Yes. I had lots of experiences out there. I don’t know what you want me to tell you. [Laughter] MH: Who were some of the characters you met growing-up out there? Were any of the old [fellows] around? I am thinking of Bill Shanley. Would [he] have been gone at that time? JS: No. What year did Shanley die? MH: It was in the 1950s. JS: I thought it was later than that. MH: It may have been. JS: We knew his place well because we would ride to it all the time as [youngsters]. It was up the hill from our place. I don’t know that I ever met him, but I knew his place well. MH: I am trying to think of the fellow who moved to Flagstaff [Arizona] who had been out there for so long. JS: Mathis? MH: No, it wasn’t Mathis. His wife’s name was Mary. JS: Mary and — I didn’t think I would ever forget his name! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] At any rate, did you know that family and their ranch? JS: Yes, you bet. They were our neighbors. Gosh, that is bugging the heck out of me. [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” Waring! MH: “Slim” Waring, that is who it was. JS: Mary [(Osburn)] and “Slim” [Waring]. MH: Was “Slim” still running cattle? JS: Yes. In fact, [Fernard LeMoyne] “Buster” [Esplin] had just started working for him when we were youngsters. MH: Would your dad have remembered Preston Nutter? JS: Yes, he talked [about] Nutter all the time. I never knew him that I know of anyway. MH: What about Bill Shanley? Was he as wild a [fellow] as everybody said he was? JS: I guess so! [Laughter] I think he was [fairly] wild, but I didn’t know him. You hear stories [about] Jack Weston. He is buried on our place up there. MH: He is? That is right. It was in Penn Valley and his brother, George, was buried there [also]. JS: We [bought] the ranch from George. Actually, they sold it to [Marion] Higley. They had it for a very short time and we [bought] it from them. MH: Is Jack’s grave marked? JS: Yes. Several years ago [David Spencer] “Spence” [Esplin] asked [Rudger] Clayton Atkin and some of [the ranchers for donations] and made sure they [put] a marker on it. We kept track of it as [youngsters]. We were always piling rocks around it and dreaming outlaw stories. MH: That is quite a story. What do you do for water out there now? JS: Hope and pray for rain! You hope it rains! [Laughter] MH: You got plenty of it this year! JS: Yes, this has been a good year. We have some springs down in the canyon. When we were [youngsters], a lot of those springs like Dripping [Springs] had more water. That is where we stayed most [of the time] when we were down there. It had more water than it does now-a-days. MH: Was Dripping [Springs] a real cave or just a hollow? JS: It is an overhang, but we slept many winters in it. Dad would take us down there and we would stay all winter long, there or [in] Devil [Canyon]. MH: Was that in Parashaunt [Canyon] or Andrus Canyon? JS: Nickals Canyon is at the head of Little Mustang [Valley]. I don’t know if you know where that is, but it is down more around the south of Andrus [Canyon]. MH: Did you put your cattle down there in the winter? JS: Yes. We would keep them down there in the winter and then summer up [in] Penn Valley. Some of my youngest memories were in 1970 or 1971. Dad decided he was going to try some [of the] Barzona breed. They are supposed to take the heat a little better. We took some down and were going to leave them there all summer long. That was my job at eight [or] nine years [of age] ─ to go down once a week, check the waters and springs and make sure they were still running. I don’t know if you know but dad put a lot of work down in there. He probably has over twenty miles of pipeline buried. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MH: We were talking about some of the work your father did on some of the springs down there and how you would go down and check on [the] cows once a week. I assume you did that on horseback. JS: Yes. It is about a ten-mile horseback ride down in there. I would take off one morning, go down and check all the waters, spend the night in the cave and then go back [home] the next day. That is where I was bitten by [a] rattlesnake down in [the] Dripping cave. MH: You were bit by a rattlesnake? Now there is a story we need to hear! JS: You probably don’t have time for it on this, do you? [Laughter] MH: I am sure I do! If [inaudible] can do it, you can do it. JS: Alright. I will make it quick. This time I decided to let my sister [tag] along with me. She was two years older than me. We took this pup down [with us]. We checked the waters and got to the cave after dark that night. We had a stick. Dad had always taught us if you leave the snakes alone they will leave you alone. There had been many times before [when] we would roll our bedroll out right on the floor of the cave. We would wake up with rattlesnakes in bed with us. I can remember one being right on my chest. Dad always said, “Move slow and carefully and you will be fine.” So that is what we did. We got to the cave and took the stick. There is an old table that Indians or miners, maybe even John Peter, I don’t know, had rounded the top of this rock. [They had] squared it out and made a table out of it. We had a grub box, an old milk crate on the back of [it]. That is where we kept our groceries. We would beat on that box with that stick. The spring is right behind it and so you would almost always chase a rattlesnake out of there. You would hear them rattling off. That is what we did. We tied [the] darn pup up in our bed that night. Of course, there were no lights. All we had in the summer was a fire. In the winter we had lanterns that we would [use to] light the cave. But in the summer all we had was the light [of the] fire. We tied the dog up by the head of the bed. Along in the middle of the night a snake came by. I sat up, and the first thing I knew, this snake was latched onto my shoulder. Of course, I was just a little [boy]! Anyway, I jerked him off and threw him out in the rocks. I didn’t know whether to wake my sister up and tell her or what to do. Finally, I woke her up. The horses were always up in the flat. We would hobble them at the cave and they would always go up [to] the flat up in the horse pasture. We went to get the horses. I got about halfway there and started getting sick. Finally, I told her what had happened. She took me back to the cave and then took off to get the horses and [came] back about daylight. The last thing I remember [was that] I told her how to tie me on the saddle. I can remember her tying me on. [Laughter] As [youngsters], we were good at coming up with ways to do things. She tied me on. That was the first time she had been down in there because mom [Artie Frances (McCain) Snyder] never let the girls go do the things some of us boys did. She says that I woke up a couple of times [coming] up out of there on that ten-mile ride, but I don’t remember. I don’t remember anything about it. She says I told her which way to go a couple of times. Anyway, that night, just about dark, we got to the house. Dad said, “Well, he has lived this long. He is going to live.” He poured some black oil on [the bite] and put me to bed. I was a [fairly] stout boy until then and I lost about twenty-five pounds over the next few days. It was a fun experience! [Laughter] MH: You obviously survived it. Did it scar you at all? JS: I have a scar from it, yes, not too serious. MH: How did your sister fare after all of that? JS: It was a [very] emotional trip for her. MH: I bet it was! She hasn’t been back since, I guess! JS: Yes, she has been back. It was definitely a memory for her. MH: Tell about the winters. Did you spend any winters out there? JS: Yes. Even when we [were] a little older and came into [St. George] to the dugout for school in the winter, dad would always take us out [to the ranch]. In fact, [in all of] my growing-up days I don’t think we spent a Christmas day in town. [We] were always out working down in the canyon. We put in a cottontail line that is several miles long, a nipple pipe line. There are a bunch of pipelines out there that [my dad] put in that we still use today. Lots of work! MH: Did you get much snow out there? JS: Probably the worst year that I knew as a [boy], anyway, I was probably six or seven years old. We went out to cut ice off the tank at Penn Valley to put in the ice house. Dad was supposed to meet us up on top. This was over Christmas vacation. There was probably three feet of snow, but we finally made it and he wasn’t there. A couple of my brothers and I ended up hiking clear down to the bottom of the canyon to get him. We ended up taking the jeep [down] because he had broken the rear axle. We put it in front- wheel drive and were going to drive it up out of there because we couldn’t find him. We drove clear around to Mule [Point] which is about thirty miles and the front end went out. We ended up hiking back to Dripping [Springs] and we saw him just as we were getting back down there. There is a place where you look across Andrus Wash [Spring]. We saw him on the other side over by Devil [Canyon]. We were able to flag him down. It is a long way around even though it is a short way across the canyon. [We] had to go a long way around to get to each other. Fun memories! MH: Would it get [very] cold out there in the winter? JS: Yes. For a [child] it was miserable. [Laughter] MH: How did you heat your cabin? JS: When I was a [boy] we had a fireplace and two stoves up in Penn Valley. When I was probably a young teenager somebody stole the stoves. [They took] the organ, the crank phonograph and [they fairly] well robbed us. Now there is just a fireplace and a cook stove. We still use [them]. MH: Do you still spend quite a bit of time out there? JS: Yes. MH: How many cattle are you running right now? JS: Two years ago when this drought was the worst, I got tired of hauling water and hauling feed. MH: You and Orvel [Bundy] and all the rest of them. JS: I sold out two years ago and we have just [started] going back this spring. [2005] I have about thirty head over [at] Last Chance [Canyon] now. That is another place that I have out there. MH: I hope that works out well. What about the saw mill? Was that running when you were growing up? JS: Dad built our cabin out there with [lumber from that sawmill]. Some of the polygamy boys out there were running it. MH: The Colorado City [Arizona] boys came down and were running it? JS: Yes. He traded logs off of our place for rough-sawn lumber to build the house. The walls are all adobe [bricks]. He filled them with mud. But the roof and all the lumber are [from there]. MH: Do you remember when it burned? JS: No, I don’t. There was a time when [the] Gublers were out there burning the sawdust that started [the saw mill] on fire again. I remember that one. As a [boy] we went up [there] a lot of times and hauled sawdust to fill the walls of the ice house and to put on the garden. But, no, I don’t remember it ever operating. It burned down before I came along or could remember, anyway. MH: What was your favorite horse? JS: There was an old mare we had named “Jane” [that] was probably the best [horse]. But I always got stuck with “Sandy.” I got the ornery ones and the [youngsters] got the better ones! [Laughter] MH: Can you remember your first saddle? JS: Yes. Most of us rode bareback, though. When we were growing-up, dad had one good saddle and one old saddle. The rest of [the riding] was all bareback. MH: You learn to ride that way, don’t you? JS: Yes. Most of our young life [we rode] without a saddle. Dad couldn’t afford more. MH: Can you remember your first pickup [truck]? JS: Oh yes! I had saved a little money and when I was fifteen years old I bought a brand new 1976 Chevy. I was [really] living high! I guess the first vehicle [my] dad had was an old Jeep. Then he had an old two-ton truck that ran for awhile. Most of the time we were growing-up he had a 1962 one-ton Ford [truck]. MH: [Did] you bounce from St. George to Penn Valley a couple of times in that? JS: Yes. We have been over that road a few times! MH: I bet you have. JS: I think I learned to drive [that road] a little faster than dad ever did, though. [Laughter] MH: That was going to be my next question. How old were you when you started driving? JS: I think I knocked my first [side] mirror off when I was six [years old]. That was miserable to knock a mirror off. Dad didn’t look at that too highly! MH: But you had to drive! [Inaudible] JS: Yes. I guess I was a little different than most of my siblings. The rest of them liked to stay at the cabin if dad would let them. But I was always with him. [One] time, [when] I was four years old, he wanted to leave me at Penn Valley and go down into the canyon [to] check the waters. It was fall and I remember there was snow on the ground. He wanted to leave me there and I wasn’t about to be left. I guess I followed him for a mile bawling and he kept telling me to go back. I never went back. Finally, he threw me on the back of the horse and took me down to Chuckwalla Cove which is a little cave that he, mom and the older [children] stayed in when they were down there. It was a little eight [feet] by ten [feet] cave. He had walled the face of it off and put a door on it. He left me there in the afternoon and told me to stay there. He took off over to Nickals [Canyon] to check the water there. I took off following him and sometime in the middle of the night he found me. I guess I had been lost for six or eight hours hiking all over that country. He built two or three fires around the hillsides and ended up finding me. It was a fun experience! MH: That story was worse than the rattlesnake. JS: I never would be left behind. I was always with him and always working. So I started doing a lot of things [fairly] young. MH: When you were growing-up, were there a lot of deer out there? JS: Yes. There was a lot more than there are now. I cannot tell you all the stories I should about that! I was probably about nine years old when I shot my first deer. We had an old single shot .22 and dad had an old .30-30 that I still have. He gave me that old .22 [and would] give me two or three mornings to find some meat to feed the family. If I couldn’t do [it], then he would take the .30-30 out and get one. But I got [fairly] good [and] every week or two went out and got one. But I don’t tell these [fellows] that anymore! [Laughter] MH: There is a lot they don’t have to know! JS: Back then, the [game] warden would come out in the middle of the summer. We would have jerky and meat hanging. He knew we needed it and never said a word. It was a different life than it is now-a-days. MH: It was a lot different. When did you come back into St. George? [Did] you go to high school here? JS: Yes, I did. I am the middle of ten [children] and the older ones were schooled out there at the ranch until they [were] older. About the time I [was] ready to start going to school, dad came [to St. George] and bought a piece of property out in the [St. George] Fields. [He] built a dugout back into the mountain [and] that is where we lived. We would spend most of the winters there and summers out [at the ranch]. MH: Your mother must have had her hands full with all those [children] [inaudible]. JS: The poor woman! I think we drove her nuts! It was a tough life. I look back at my mom and, in her later years, she got to where she told some wild tales. I don’t blame her at all. It was a tough life she had and it was hard. Dad lived a hundred years out of his time. She would see the way [other] people lived and we just weren’t living that way. It was hard. My mom and dad got a divorce when I was twelve. I stayed with dad and everybody else went with mom. It was a tough life for her. MH: [Did] your dad continue to run the ranch after [the divorce]? JS: Yes. Then he lived with me until the day that he died. MH: Did [you] drag your family out there, your wife and [children]? JS: Yes, I have them hooked. In fact, my oldest daughter is twenty-one [years old and] loves it out there. She grew up doing a lot of the same [things] [only] not as hard as [when] we grew up. We would go all summer and we might see “Buster” [Esplin] and his family maybe once. Other than that, we didn’t see anybody. MH: Did you have a garden out at the ranch? JS: Yes. We had two of them. We had one right up at the house where the drain water from the house [could] water it. That was our small garden. Then we had a big one down by the tank. [We had] probably two acres of garden every year. MH: That is a job in itself. JS: That is what we lived on. We would come in [here] during the fruit season and pick fruit [to] take it back out [for canning]. MH: Did Bill Shanley or any of those [fellows] have stills out there? JS: I know where two or three of them were, but I don’t know [if] they were theirs. There is one that still has quite a bit of [equipment] [in] down there [but] I think it was actually [there] before Bill’s time. MH: Archaeologists might want to look at that. Anything over fifty years is historic now. [You] don’t know if there is any product left or not? JS: [Laughter] There is still some [inaudible] there. MH: I always ask two questions that are sort of a little departure from normal. The first one, and I always get interesting answers to this, so I am going to throw it at you: what is it about the Parashaunt area and the Arizona Strip in general, that keeps bringing all of you [folks] back? Everybody I talk to, that is all they want to do is go back to the [Arizona] Strip. Reed [Miles] Mathis is ninety-seven [years old] and he still wants to go back [to] the ranch. What is it out there that gets you going [so] that is the only place on earth? JS: It gets emotional because it is that to all of us, to me especially. I guess the biggest part of it is [that] it is where we grew up. That is what we know. But there is more to it than that. It is the quietness, the peace and the getting away from people that makes [up] a part of it. I guess [what] gripes me the most about [President William Jefferson] Clinton and his [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument out there, he changed all that. He took something that could have remained [as the] old west for a long time and ruined it. MH: That leads me right up to my next question which is: given the fact that it is a monument now, how would you like to see it administered and managed? JS: The problem with all of this administering and managing is [that] all of a sudden you get all of these [people who] want a job and want to excel in their job. So they come out there with all these big grand ideas of how they are going to make it their own personal [project], whether [they are] in the police force or whether [they] are in the BLM [Bureau of Land Management]. They want to start improving roads. They want to get people out there. A monument wouldn’t bother me if there was something they were going to look at. He should have made Tuweep a monument and left it at that. But to turn the rest of [the land] into a monument is just making it so that people [will] think there is something to go see. They go out there, tear up the roads and think they are going to [travel] on to Phoenix [Arizona] and they cannot make it through there. They have no clue [as to] what they are doing. I get frustrated when I think of this monument. I am probably the wrong [person] to be talking to. I think back to what my dad said when I was a [boy]. He said the best days of the BLM were when there were two men [who] ran the BLM. When I was a [boy] there were fifty-eight men and who knows how many men there are [in the organization] now. You stop and add up all those vehicles that go out there. Most of them load up their lunch in the morning, go out and maybe do an hour’s worth of [work] and then they drive back. All of that is ruining the [Arizona] Strip in my opinion. The whole works is over-managed. I see nothing but [the situation] getting worse. MH: Fair enough. [END OF TAPE]
Norman “Norm” and Anita (Nay) Tom | Oral History
Norman “Norm” and Anita (Nay) Tom were interviewed on February 11, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. They related their experiences living in the Pacoon and Nay Ranch areas of Whitney Pass on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Norman “Norm” and Anita (Nay) Tom were interviewed on February 11, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. They related their experiences living in the Pacoon and Nay Ranch areas of Whitney Pass on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: Where were you born, “Norm”? NT: [I was born in] Las Vegas, Nevada in 1955. MH: You are just a child! NT: Yes. MH: When did you first [go] out to the [Nay] ranch? NT: I believe I was about twenty-one. [It was] in 1977. I was working for her dad, Keith Nay, hauling water for his livestock. I [met] her [Anita] at a square dance. It was a church social. He was the branch president on the reservation. I am one of the Native Americans out there [and am a member of] the Moapa Band of Paiutes. MH: Are you on the Moapa Tribal Council? NT: You were not supposed to ask me that [laughter] but, unfortunately, yes. MH: I am sure it has its headaches. NT: [Inaudible] My life gets boring once in a while and different challenges make it worthwhile. I like to go back to my cowboy days. I have lived enough on the reservation. MH: What about the Nay Ranch? How old were you when you first went out there? NT: I went to a trade school in Oakland [California] and when I came back from there I went out to the ranch. I [was] tired of city life and [wanted] to get as far as I could away from the public and enjoy my life. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MH: What year [did] you came back from Oakland? NT: It was about the end of 1975. MH: Was the [land] still privately owned or BLM [Bureau of Land Management] permitted at that time? NT: Yes, it was. I worked for different [ranchers] out there. I worked for Anita’s dad, Keith [Nay] on the Heaton Ranch. I worked for [Howard] Hughes, [the Summa Corporation] outfit. Jim Maceda was [the] boss. [Inaudible] MH: How many cattle did they run out there? NT: They had two outfits out there. One was in Delamar [Nevada] and one [was] at Gold Buttes [Nevada]. Combined with the cattle on the [Arizona Strip] ranch there would be 2,500 or 3,000 [head]. MH: That was enough to keep you busy! NT: There were [a lot] of horses there too. MH: [Did] you still use horses to gather [round up] the cattle back in the 1970s? NT: You bet! Jimmy was an old cowboy. I learned a lot from him. I was always grateful for that line of work because I liked that type of life. MH: Was [this] your home territory [since you were] Native American? NT: Yes, it was. My elders always told me [from the] Grand Wash coming up from Tassi [Ranch], Pacoon, and on up to St. George [Washington County, Utah belonged to the] Shivwits [Band] and the Moapa Band, all [on] the west side. MH: Can you remember some of the [fellows] you worked with? Were there any other Native American cowboys out there? There must have been a lot of them. NT: There was a young boy named Greg Anderson who was from the Moapa Band. We had maybe four Mexican cowboys. There were older cowboys out there, Jimmy Heyworth, Newell [Alma] Bundy, Cleo Whitney [and] Hank Rice . They would come out [to the Arizona Strip] at round up time. MH: Did you run bulls with the cows all year? Or did you cut them out? NT: We would like to have a good cow and calf operation but without [any] fences it [was] impossible. I think we did have a lot of good livestock out there. MH: What were your [cattle] breeds? NT: They were a Charolais breed. Hughes was the first to start the “Char” breeds in that country. They adapted to the desert and handled the heat. Most of the cattle I saw that were “Char” breeds were good keepers. They could get along on local feed where white-face [cattle] and [other] livestock couldn’t survive. I had a little experience with that. I had about sixty head of mother cows and they were not the [right] cattle for that type of desert. MH: Where was your market? Did your buyers come to you or did you have to round up [the cattle] and truck them out? NT: We brought them [to] the Cedar City [Iron County, Utah] auction. MH: When you married Anita, did you drag her out there or did she drag you out? [Laughter] NT: No, I dragged her and my boys out and one [boy] was still in diapers. One time we were out at a cow-camp at Cedar Basin. We had thirty head of horses. We had a cowboy there, [“Big] Jim” Sage, who was a horseshoer [farrier]. He was moody and also was our cook. My youngest boy ─ AT: That was our oldest boy. NT: Both of my boys [have been] in the saddle since they were a day-old. MH: [Laughter] Anita, what was it like raising [youngsters] out on a ranch? AT: It was harder than most people would think. [I had] disposable diapers. If I had to wash [diapers] by hand, I don’t think I would have had any more than the first child. MH: Describe [the] Nay Ranch. When I saw it, it was a pretty little place. AT: It is very pretty. In the summer time there is water, a pool to swim in and irrigation ponds. MH: A very [nice] swimming pool to swim in. Who built the nice rock house there? AT: My dad. His uncle started the fireplace, the foundation and the wall up so far. When we decided to marry, they told us we couldn’t have a reception out there until the house was finished and the yard was cleaned. So we had to help finish it. NT: We lived in the house when we [were] married. AT: We [lived there] about three or four years. It had a loft. MH: That would be the only cool place in the summer. AT: It was [cool] in the summer. I guess the cottonwood [trees] acted as an evaporative cooler. The water stayed at 65° the year around. NT: I [would] only [stay] in [the water] for about five minutes and then I was out of that dang thing! AT: Then you would be hunting the sunshine to warm you up. MH: Tell me about some of the characters you worked with? NT: There [were] a lot of them. If I were listening to this [tape], they would be talking about me but this is my chance so I will talk about them. [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] Do it! NT: I can tell you about when I was over in Gold Buttes where two fellows, Bill Garrett and Art Coleman, are buried. MH: Bill Garrett was an old cowboy from way back. He ran with Bill Shanley. NT: That was before my [time]. It is fascinating about that whole country. A lot of work was done out there, rock walls and fencing, old line shacks [that] cowboys used. Dan Morone did most of the fencing and rock walls. Where we always camped was called headquarters. There was this old fellow called “Big Jim” Sage who had respect in the camp when he was [cooking the] food. I never did gripe about his cooking even though he had rocks in his beans! [Laughter] [Inaudible] rodeo park. I was riding [an] old red mare named “Peg.” I rode well enough for an older [fellow]. There was [an] old fellow, Newell [Alma] Bundy, who was quite a character. I enjoyed working with him and learned a lot [from him]. I thought I knew a lot but this man knew all [about the] country and wild cows and horses. One day he had his daughter’s dog with him. [The] dog wouldn’t come back and wouldn’t mind Newell either. Finally, we were mounted up and I was holding my horse. I thought that son-of-a-gun would jump out from under me. Newell said, “Are you ready, Tom?” He always called me “Tom-Tom.” “Let’s get going.” That dang dog came at my horse as soon as I got on. My horse didn’t do anything. [The dog] went around there and bit Newell’s horse and [the] horse went into it. The more he yelled, the [more the] dang dog went for the horse. He was an old cowboy and he [hung on]. When [the] horse spun around and bucked, he yelled, “Kill that damn dog!” He was going round and round in a small area. He came off of there like Batman and landed on his feet. I thought heck, if he could do that so could I! [Laughter] There were the four of us: Fernando, me, Newell, Jimmy Heyworth and maybe Cleo Whitney. These boys knew the country. MH: [Laughter] What was the worst thing that happened to you out there? AT: [Inaudible] the horse was stupid. You and [the horse] parted company and you lit on the ground. That laid you up for quite awhile. NT: That was an accident. That was on me. I was down there below Mockingbird [Wash]. Newell and [James] “Jim” Bundy roped a four or five-year-old Charolais bull. I was on this big “Appy” [Appaloosa] horse. We were going to drive [the bull] back up to [the] corral [at] Mockingbird [Wash]. We started off with six or seven head [of cattle]. He wanted to take that bull and everything he could get. We were after that dang bull and it wouldn’t go. Finally, [the bull] won! He said, “We will go ahead and brand him right here.” I got [out] a couple of running irons, the cross-diamond-cross on the hip. I had both those irons in one hand. I had to use them to balance myself and pull myself up. I could hardly do it because my horse kept jumping around. Either Newell or “Jim” let a little slack on that bull and that son-of-a-gun got up! It was wild and mean and came right at me. The only thing that saved me was a little catclaw bush. I went round and round that son-of-a-gun. He would catch me every time I tried to make a run around him. [The] bull would knock me down [and] run back up on top of me. Those boys up on the hill were laughing! [Laughter] He kept me down quite awhile. MH: Did you get hurt? NT: No, I was bigger than that bull! [Laughter] AT: [Laughter] The way they told [the story] when they came back [was that he and the bull] were roly-poly; the bull was on top, he was on top, the bull was on top, and he was on top. I said, “Where were you [fellows while] this was happening?” They said, “We were sitting on our horses laughing!” “Thanks!” NT: From then on, I would never get off my horse. I stayed on my horse. [Laughter] AT: That was a true story. You stayed on the horse when a bull went behind me and scared me to death. NT: When I was working for Howard Hughes, Roland Esplin was at Mt. Carmel [Kane County, Utah at a ranch] called [inaudible]. Keith Nay [was with] the Whitney Ranch, Dell Allen [was from] the Nay Ranch [at] Pacoon [and] Jim Whitmore [with the] Tassi [Ranch]. There were five outfits. We were mounted on the best horses that all the outfits had. We had good horses. Roland Esplin was good size and had a big horse. One of his cowboys was a one-arm Indian named Warren Mayo. He was a cowboy even [though he had] [only] one arm. MH: Do you know how he lost his arm? NT: Someone told me he went after an animal and it caught him and took it [his arm] off. I’m not sure. I came close to [getting hurt] roping out there in that desert. Sometimes you had to dally [very] quickly. I was a dally man anyway. MH: [Do] you have both thumbs? NT: Yes, cowboys had to tie hard and fast. Newell Bundy and others would tie solid. We [went] down [to round up] eight stray [cattle in] the Whitmore [Canyon]. Three or four of them [were] from [Howard] Hughes’ outfit, [the] Summa Corporation. Roland Esplin had about four. As soon as they saw us, [the cattle] split up. There was a cowboy for each one of them. I took out after a heifer [and] roped [her]. It was the fastest one in the whole bunch. [Anita’s] dad came along and I handed the rope to him. He took it. Warren was in front of me and had his rope tucked under his armpit and his reins in his mouth, like John Wayne in True Grit. He only had one arm. I watched that rope fly out because I wanted to make sure he was alright. He was as good as anybody. MH: Did he drop [the] loop right? [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] NT: I waved to him and went on out there and caught a yearling and brought it back. When we got [the] cattle together, we couldn’t drive them or herd them. The younger [ones] we took down [the canyon] on the end of a rope. We had about six cows we had to get down. I was going to watch [inaudible] because these [cowboys] were the experts. The cattle were wild [so] they tied their horns together like two oxen. Every time [one of the] cows would try to run, they had to take the other one along. We took them down from Black Willow Wash. Grand Wash comes down from the north from Pacoon and drains in [to it]. We were going on up to Roland Esplin’s lower well which was about eight miles. MH: That [would be] eight or ten miles [from there]. NT: Yes, it was quite a ways to go. We had to go through the fence and take them up. I didn’t have to worry about those fellows. They don’t miss! You are never bored riding along with Dell Allen because he is always talking about thirty or forty years ago back in his rodeo days. [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] Dell was quite a [fellow]! How did Tassi Spring get its name? NT: I was talking to one of the elder [Indians] about that. It was a highway stop [when] the Indians were traveling. As far as I know, Paul Jerunski was out there. He was my great-great-great grandfather. Even though she [his wife] was a Durant, she was still my grandma. There was another [Indian] named, Maude. Her husband was blind. Have you heard [about] that? MH: No, tell [the] story. NT: She supposedly [is] buried [by] her husband, Curly. AT: She got tired of carrying him around. NT: One day, one of the ranchers or [a] cowboy came [by and saw] this fellow [being] buried. They stopped and talked to her [Maude]. They had to pull him out. She was going to bury him because he was no good [to her] anymore. [Laughter] Indians have a good sense of humor. They are not a war-like people. That was also tied to Tassi. MH: Wasn’t it the way over to Pearce Ferry? AT: Wasn’t Tassi an Indian stop? NT: Yes, but back in those days [Indian] names were so hard [to say that] even the [Bureau of Indian Affairs] agency couldn’t pronounce the Indian names. They had to give [the Indians names] like Tom and Green and so forth. MH: Did the Indians ranch out there after the 1900s? NT: They had their route that they kept. Even today some of our songs pertain to the mountains. There were a few songs that came across the Colorado River up through Pacoon into Tassi and on up to where we were at the main ranch. Then back to Moapa [Nevada], on the reservation here, back to Mt. Charleston [Nevada] and down into Palm Springs, California. Then back to Parker, Arizona. That is how our songs took their route. When they sang all night [the songs were about] all these areas. MH: That is interesting. Do the Native Americans still have their own names for most of [those places] out there? Or has that all been lost? NT: A lot of that [information] has been lost. I was talking to Art Callahan who was down in the Grand Wash [area]. I knew the Shivwits [Band of the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah] occupied that years ago. He talked about his mom [being] born somewhere in the Grand Wash area. There is a lot of history there and a lot of signs that Indians have always lived in [the] area. MH: Let’s talk about you [Anita]. You were stuck at the ranch with a bunch of [youngsters] and he was out playing rodeo! What was your day like out at the ranch? You got him up, fed him and sent him off. How did you spend the rest of the day? AT: Normally, when he was out chasing cows we were with him in a tent. I went right along and did some of the cooking for him. I got in trouble for cleaning out the coffee pot because I didn’t know any better. I thought it was black and dirty and needed cleaning but that was wrong. [Laughter] When he was gone, the boys and I would move sprinkler pipes in the alfalfa fields. MH: There was quite an orchard just below the house at one time. AT: There is still a big orchard [there]. MH: What are the trees? AT: There are peaches, pears, apricots, apples and some plums. Mostly, yellow peaches and some white peaches. [There was] plenty of work to be done there. If I wasn’t busy doing that, I did book-work for my mom and dad. I did their tax [work and] kept it all caught up so they could take it to their income tax [preparer]. MH: It is still remote. There is no power out there yet. AT: No. We didn’t have power, [only] a twelve-volt light system. Sometimes we had TV [television]. [During] our last years out there we had a generator so I could have a washing machine. MH: You didn’t have to [use] gas power? AT: I didn’t even have that. I had knuckles! [Laughter] MH: How many children? AT: Just two to do laundry for that way. I had an old wood stove to cook on and [to] heat water. [I] poured [the heated water] into a bathtub in front of the stove for the [boys]. We [put] our bath water into a bathtub in the bathroom. Olden days! MH: Who built [the] water catchment at Whitney Pockets? NT: [The] CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] as far as I know. AT: Was it after [World] War I? NT: I think it was after The [Great] Depression. Your grandpa, Alan Nay, talked about it. AT: The government was paying them so they were looking for somewhere to put these men to work. NT: I know a lot of the springs where they put water troughs were done by the CCC. MH: Was the Grand Gulch Mine operating when you were out there? NT: No. I looked at it. AT: My mom was a little girl when that was operating. Her dad used to haul freight to [the mine in] a wagon. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MH: Was St. Thomas [Nevada] still around? AT: Yes. My dad was born in St. Thomas and my mother’s dad was the last postmaster for St. Thomas. They did the last day cancellations and then took the stamp out [and] threw it out into Lake [Mead]. [The lake] was already rising [so] they left by boat. MH: That is an interesting story. AT: Years after that, when the water had gone down, they had an Easter party. Somebody in the family actually found the stamp and has [it] in her possession. MH: I’ll be darned! Did you ever do any farming? AT: We had alfalfa [and farmed] it the old-fashioned way. We had a tractor and a mower that went behind it. We had an old buck rake. NT: How old were my boys when I bought that cattle range there on the Bunkerville [Nevada] allotment? AT: [That] was [in] 1986. NT: I had a chance to buy on the Bunkerville allotment. AT: It was a grazing right. MH: [It was] a grazing permit. NT: We bought about 100 head of mother cows and that was where we operated until I couldn’t do it anymore. MH: Did you ever bring any of the elder [Indians] out to the ranch? NT: You bet! Before I went out there, we had a Nay family reunion and had 600 guests. When my wife and I [were] married, I had all the reservation folks [out there]. AT: They said there were in the neighborhood of 600 to 800 people there for our [wedding] reception. It was a family ordeal because the swimming pool [brought] them out and they swam. NT: That was for our wedding. I guess that is why we are still together. [Laughter] AT: Your dad and your uncles were out there a lot. We had the reservation [folks] come [out] for some sort of church outing. MH: So the Moapa Band [of Paiutes Moapa River Indian Reservation] and the Shivwits still go out from time to time. NT: When you look at that area, it was the Shivwits that occupied it. It is their home. MH: [Do] they still think of it as their home? NY: Yes, they think of that country as their home because [the beginnings of their] families and all their history was out there on the Parashaunt. I haven’t been up on top to explore, but where I have looked there was always something that was theirs, like the ranch. I think it was a special sacred place. I could tell you [information] but it [isn’t] special to me. MH: Did you ever have any bad experience with fires out on the ranch? NT: [Fire came fairly] close. It [would] look like Las Vegas sometimes when we would get those electric storms. I counted almost forty lightning [strikes that] came down and hit a Joshua [tree]. I counted about thirty or thirty-five fires. AT: You looked down a big valley [when] you [were] at the ranch. It was like little cities all lit up down there. NT: [Fire] never did get up close to the ranch. It did get within a mile or so but there is a lot [inaudible]. MH: Tell about the grave that is there by the road. AT: That is my father’s grave and my grandmother’s grave. MH: There are two graves there? I have driven by, but never stopped. AT: One grave is my dad’s and one’s my mom’s mom. [It is] kind of a family plot. MH: That is nice. Are you still actively ranching [the land] now? NT: I think [the land] is just idling there. Her mother, [Marilyn Nay, has] remarried. I can’t pronounce his name but I call him “Mr. Old [inaudible].” He was a hard- working old fellow and is retired. She seems to be happy. After my father-in-law passed away I was worried about my mother-in-law. She wouldn’t come off the mountain for anything. AT: His name is Koturah. She is a stubborn lady. NT: I told my wife that I would probably be about the same way. AT: When my dad was alive he wouldn’t let her stay out there alone [because] she was scared of the dark. Either I was there, one of my boys was there or somebody, because he wouldn’t let her be there alone. Then he died and I told her, “I won’t answer to dad because you are out here alone by yourself because you wouldn’t listen to us. [Laughter] You go tell him that.” MH: Were your nearest neighbors at Pacoon? AT: Our closest [neighbors] were at Pacoon. Up on the hill was another little place but they were hardly ever there. NT: I think they came out on weekends. AT: Pacoon [had] the closest [neighbors] which was about twelve miles. Town was forty miles one-way to school [for] the [youngsters]. MH: Did you have to take them to school in the morning? AT: I drove them to school. The oldest one was home schooled for kindergarten, first and second [grades] and then went to public school in third grade. [He] stayed in public school until the first quarter of the ninth grade. He said, “Get me out of here. I want to go to home school.” I told him, “You won’t have your friends and you won’t play football.” I thought he was just mad [over] something at school and he would get over it. A couple of weeks later he said, “Did you order me that course yet?” I said, “No.” He said, “Are you going to wait until I graduate?” I said, “No, I guess you are really serious.” They finished home schooling [and received] a diploma. MH: Are your children still tied to and interested in the ranch? AT: It was a big part of their lives. It was Jared [Tom’s] life style and livelihood until he was eighteen when we moved off [the ranch]. I really didn’t realize how much he missed it until he was in town looking around. He started looking for trouble and kept finding it! [Laughter] I told him, “You better find yourself another hobby, buddy.” Now they are team roping. NT: [Inaudible] A lot of these farmers come from [inaudible]. Every time I left to help somebody out, I said, “You have to make them stop making [trouble] and make them start working.” In fact, I felt bad because when Jared was eighteen and “Shorty” [Luke Tom] was fifteen they were playing [with] cars every time they [had] a chance. They got in somebody else’s sandbox and played with cars. They never [were able to] do that out at the ranch. AT: They had all these cars and toys. I went home one day (he was in ninth grade) [and] I looked at this body lying on the ground and thought, “What’s with him?” He was playing with his loader and dump truck. I thought: my gosh! we work these [boys] too hard and they never get to play! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] [They were] making up for lost time. AT: I guess so. MH: What was your scariest time out at the ranch? What event scared you the most? [Did you have any] disasters, [youngsters] getting in accidents or medical problems? AT: We were healthy except this [fellow] over here! [Norman] kept having horse accidents! [Laughter] They would roll over the top of him. In [inaudible] it was about two miles to the corrals and [in the] summertime. My uncle was there and he came running [on] his horse up to me. I was [very pregnant] with our next [child] and he didn’t want to scare me. He said, “We have to go down there. “Norm” is down there.” I thought Norman was down in the wash and there was a cow [that] needed care or maybe [he] needed help to get [the cow] in the truck. Our truck had a stock rack on it. I was [walking along] and he said, “I think you ought to speed up a little.” “Exactly, what do you mean?” “The horse rolled over him.” He had blood coming out his nose, eyes and ears. He didn’t know [if] “Norm” was even alive when he left [him]. By the time we got there, he was up but he has had a lot of close calls that way. We were lucky with the [boys]. Our oldest [Jared] had a motorcycle wreck when he was about nine. He was following my dad who had a [Honda] Fat Cat [motorcycle] and he had a Honda Trail 90 [motorcycle]. My dad didn’t hear well and [the boy] hit a rock and flipped. He had a helmet on or I don’t think he would be with us today. It cracked the helmet and [he was] flown to [Las] Vegas. I was working in Mesquite [Nevada] at the time and you [Norman] were out goofing around. It was close to July Fourth when I [received] the call. I had been driven to work so they sent people all around town looking for him so we could get to the hospital. I was under the impression [he had been] taken to St. George. I called my mom and she told me that he had been taken to Las Vegas. Actually, [he was] brought by ambulance to St. George [and they] used a helicopter to Life Flight him to [Las] Vegas. They wouldn’t let my dad on the helicopter with him. He went back to Glendale [Nevada] to call his uncle and got a ride in to [Las] Vegas. Jared was unconscious most of the time. After he [was put] on the helicopter he gained consciousness. They had to put him back out because he realized there wasn’t anyone around him that he knew and panicked. That was one of our worst [situations]. MH: I [hope] it ended well. AT: He had a death grip on my hand [when] we got to the hospital. I pried his fingers off my hand to his dad’s hand while I went to the bathroom. It turned out that he seems to be fine. MH: What was Christmas like out at the ranch? AT: When we had a generator we had Christmas lights running over the hill. [Laughter] Out in no-man’s land you [could] come over the top of the hill and [see lights]! [Laughter] MH: [Right] over Whitney Pass! [Laughter] AT: Christmas was good out there. We got to play in the snow. NT: I don’t know where the Christmas lights came from. AT: We lived in town, moved back and forth to the ranch [and had the Christmas lights]. We had Christmas trees until the [boys were] old enough [to] take all the fun out of it. We couldn’t out guess them. There was no surprise in it anymore. [Laughter] My mom and dad gave my brother and me an animal when we were small. We had our own herd. I was obnoxious. They gave my brother a choice. He picked a nice little heifer and the [animal] I wanted was a bull. They told me he would never reproduce but I wanted him anyway. Finally, they took it away from me and gave me a heifer. [Laughter] I managed to have fifteen or twenty head [of cattle] when we [were] married. From the time the [boys] were born, we did the same and gave each one an animal. They were heifers and their herd grew. With all the trouble with the government we decided to get out of [the business]. We sold their [cattle] along with our [herd] to get out. Nothing was handed to us. We had to buy the range [land] and lots of cattle. [END OF TAPE - SIDE ONE] NT: ─ right out of Santa Clara [Washington County, Utah and] Lake Mead. If I am going to stay overnight, this is what I always tell my Native American youth. I would say, “The Spirit of the Mountain will want to see young people.” If I have been out there in some canyon or wash or in a fix somewhere, laying there [because] a horse rolled over the top of me, I felt I was never alone. My Grandfather up there created all this [area]. Just for a moment, I could go out there and look at the beautiful view, birds and animals, the terrain, the sunset [and] the stars [in the skies]. I know what these ranchers and some of these people are talking about that like to go out there. We are a part of it. I consider us as good stewards of the land and we respect it. We don’t like it all destroyed either. I know [the] Mormon ranchers and others pray for rain just like the Native Americans. They like to see the rain [and] snow [come] to get the grass growing. When the grass starts growing, the animals start reproducing. Everything falls [under] our Creator up there. So that is my church. Every time I go out there [I] don’t have to worry about seeing something bad. There is nothing bad because it is [inaudible]. AT: It is relaxing. NT: You bet! I like it that the family can take[youngsters] out and get away from this fast-paced life here [in town]. MH: That is a good answer, Norm. With the rain we are having now, it should be a good spring. There should be a lot of flowers [blooming]. NT: [It] is a beautiful place out there. I love Toroweap. AT: It is pretty out there at [Whitney] Pockets right now. MH: [The area] down around Pacoon and Gold Buttes should be pretty. NT: My granddaddy and the elders talked about the plants and herbs out there that could be used for medicine. MH: Do the Native Americans still gather [these plants]? NT: My dad and my uncles always talked about the medicine out there [in the] mountain that we [are] from, Whitney Ranch, back in [the] Whitney Pockets area. In that area where the rain hits the most, there is plenty right there. What they see, I see [as] cow feed! [Laughter] AT: And they see [the plants as] medicine. I don’t see a pharmacy or prescriptions out here! Now, I wished I had taken the time to learn from them. I have studied some of it on my own, but it would have been helpful to have them point [the plants] out instead of [wondering] which [plant] is medicine. [Laughter] NT: You get to use those herbs, too, and that kind of life to me is the reward. Those two boys over there are like a lot of the boys from ranches and farms, hard working [youngsters]. They make good United States citizens and abide by the law. AT: They are good healthy boys. NT: I am proud of them. They come down here and they team up. “Shorty” Luke [Tom has] won quite a few buckles and saddles in roping and team roping. The oldest boy of mine spent a lot of money on horses. AT: There is a difference between what we call a good horse in the hills and what they call a good horse in town. A good horse in the hills is one you ride out in the washes and you don’t call it a suicide ride. Those horses are okay but in town they aren’t what [is known as] a good horse. These good horses have to be high-dollar roping horses. NT: I used to frown at them because when they roped [the] steers they knocked the pounds off those animals when I [was] trying to put [pounds] on! [Laughter] MH: They didn’t ride them quite so hard. [Laughter] AT: We used to count on [those] extra pounds for a little bit more money. NT: Milk-fat was about the best thing that could happen on a cow. MH: Do you still have your saddle? NT: I sure do! This is my third saddle. I got the first one was over [at] Cedar Basin in Gold Butte. It belonged to one of my bosses on the reservation who was quite a cowboy too. His name was Lloyd Bann. In those days, those boys were hard-working fellows. [Inaudible] I went out to Cedar Basin and there was a Charolais bull that had jumped the fence around the corral. [It] was about a seven-foot fence. He jumped that [fence], jumped another one and took off. I was out of the corral and [the others] were cutting the cattle out, so there was Fernando and me. We saw that bull tear across [the] airport [that belonged to] Crazy Eddie’s in Cedar Basin. I could see the cedar and pine trees at the tree line. I took off after that [bull]. I already had a loop built. I lassoed that bull and pulled [the] dally real quickly before [the bull] got into the trees. [Inaudible] I could feel [the] saddle give and it broke my saddle. It was a good thing it didn’t jerk the whole thing out from under me. I yelled at Fernando, “My saddle is broken! You better put a rope on [him] real quick. I [have] to let it go.” [The crack] was about an inch. The only thing holding it together was the leather. That was one [good] saddle! [Laughter] AT: Your boss traded you [a saddle] for another one? NT: Jimmy Heyworth traded me another one. I still have that [saddle]. AT: Didn’t it break, too? It was cracked. NT: It was cracked from all the roping [I did]. AT: Out on the range, the only way we could [round up] our cattle was to rope them. NT: I roped horses off the saddle too. One time, with that same saddle, Newell and I were down below Mud [Spring] by Greasewood Basin. We had some cows down there between [the] two reservoirs. We had [a] driver drive Newell and me down so there was just the two of us. The cattle took off [on] a trot so I took off with Newell to get them headed in the right direction. I was on this big colt. He said, “I am going to try to head these [cows] up toward headquarters at Horse Springs [Canyon]. Every time I looked at Newell, my horse wouldn’t turn; it just went straight toward Pacoon. I couldn’t get the son-of-a-gun to stop! Finally, I jerked that horse around and he started bucking and bucked all the way across that flat. He was running and I could stay on him then. Then I slowed him down and he cut loose. It takes a heck of a horse to buck me off but not very long. When I went up, I put my foot underneath the saddle and tried to clamp myself down but he was bucking real hard by then. Finally, I felt myself between the seat and the saddle. I skinned my butt and he threw me off. I managed to catch the seat of my saddle and put a round mark clear across my saddle seat. I went off and landed on my feet like Newell Bundy would have! [Laughter] I turned him around and headed my horse back up. When I got back on my horse and saw the dust from the stock truck going back up, [I] thought: damn, I am sure glad I didn’t lose my horse because I would have had to walk about fifty miles back up to headquarters! [Laughter] I told my wife and my boys, I don’t want anybody fighting over this saddle. When I die, throw that saddle on top of my grave. It will be good enough for me. AT: They can throw that one on there. Last year, in February, your son won three saddles in one roping [event]. His big brother automatically claims one [and] Luke claims the other one. It was the day before his birthday [when] he won. To cover his entry fees, he sold his saddle to a Mexican. He traded a buckle he had won to get his saddle back. He gave [the buckle] to his dad for his birthday. So he has a brand new [saddle], which is the first one in your entire life. MH: So you [have] a brand new [saddle]! AT: A brand new one and probably the [only] new saddle he [has] had in his life. NT: A cowboy always has the right to stretch a story. I want to say I won that saddle. [Laughter] MH: Given the fact that [President William Jefferson] Clinton made the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument and it exists, how do you think it ought to be managed and administered? AT: Not by the government. The ranchers, the people who have it closest to their heart and cattlemen [should manage it] because they would do [a] better [job]. NT: I believe that. I heard that [President] George [W.] Bush introduced the back country by-ways; he wanted to see the public lands in operation [by the] ranchers, miners, oilmen, loggers, off-road [riders] and all these people who enjoy the outdoors. When they make monuments and parks out of public lands, which the people own anyway, they [set up] rules and regulations and treat them like laws. It is not enjoyable anymore. AT: It costs you [to use the land] and then there are penalties. NT: To me, it ought to be a wilderness. A wilderness is an area like on the top of these mountains. When you start talking about wilderness, I am talking about roads that have always been there. I could see in our desert area, especially up on top of where [the Grand Canyon]-Parashaunt [National] Monument is, there are a lot of springs. The ranchers or miners put in all these improvements for wildlife. There wouldn’t be that many deer up there on those mountains [if they hadn’t]. The natives are the Shivwits. They were [at] the end of their rope as far as surviving. The Mormons took over that country too. They had to do what they had to do back in those days. They opened up the area and put in water catchments and developed the springs. MH: Would you like to see them pave the roads on the monument? NT: No, I wouldn’t. AT: No, you could compare that with our back country by-way. That was a national [project] and all that did was [bring] a lot of people in [who] destroyed the area. NT: I think it is a lot like [my] little town of Mesquite. It hurt some of the older people [as I found out] when I talked to some of the elders, the senior citizens. It takes away a nice little farm community that now is all casinos. All it is [about] is money. [END OF TAPE - SIDE TWO
Verdon Heaton | Oral History
Verdon Heaton was interviewed on February 28, 2005, at the Bar-10 Ranch in the bottom of the Grand Canyon National Park, Mohave County, Arizona by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences operating the ranch on the Arizona Strip with his brother, Tony Heaton.
Verdon Heaton was interviewed on February 28, 2005 at the Bar-10 Ranch in the bottom of the Grand Canyon National Park, Mohave County, Arizona by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences operating the ranch on the Arizona Strip with his brother, Tony Heaton.
MH: When did you first leave the ledge and come down to canyon-country? VH: I came down here to live fourteen years [ago in 1991]. The first time I came down they were [herding] cattle on the top. [That] night, Tony [Heaton] told me to drive the truck loaded of hay down and he would [bring] the horses down. I thought I was never going to get down here! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] That would be slow going! Your family is from Moccasin [Arizona] across the [state] line and [from] up towards Bryce Canyon [National Park, Garfield County, Utah] at Alton [Kane County, Utah]. Where did you grow up? VH: [I grew up] in Moccasin. MH: You grew up in Moccasin by Pipe Spring [Arizona]. [Did] your family ranch out on the [Arizona] Strip over the years? VH: All the time. That is where we were raised. MH: When you got down here [and] unloaded the hay, was there much to see? VH: [It was] dark. [I] unloaded half of it and the next day he told me to take the rest [of the load] down to the [Colorado] River. The same thing happened there. It got dark while they were getting the horses and mules. MH: The days are long down here. Was it strictly a ranching operation at that time? VH: Yes. When he started out, I can’t remember his name, he is a dentist in Kingman [Arizona]. I think he is up, what is that home up against the hill? MH: In Hurricane [Washington County, Utah]? VH: No. It is up further this way. My memory leaves me. He was the one [who] owned this place. MH: Did he have the Bar-10 [Ranch]? VH: Yes. MH: Did he have the private ground, too? VH: Yes. He worked and came up here and he leased [the ranch] to Tony. Then he decided he didn’t want to do [that], so Tony pulled out. It wasn’t very long [before] he sold it to him. MH: Tony bought it out. VH: That is [why] he located here. MH: Were they running sheep down here at that time? VH: Most of [the sheep were] up on the hill. They [had a few sheep] there [earlier] but we never did get mixed up with it [very] much. MH: So it wound up a ranching operation. Were there a lot of buildings down here at that time? VH: There were just those cabins over there. MH: Had the spring been piped down here at that time? VH: Yes. MH: You did have water down here. VH: The water has been down here a long time. MH: Going back [to] the Whitmores, maybe? VH: I think it was even before then. Who is the [fellow who] brought all the cows over here and let them [inaudible]. MH: [Do you mean] Preston Nutter? VH: Preston Nutter. I think he was the one [who] had the water brought down here first. MH: He was the first one. VH: It was [through a] wooden pipe. MH: Wasn’t there was a fellow named Wood [who] ran cattle or sheep down here for awhile? VH: Yes. MH: Did you ever run across [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” Waring? VH: All the time! Dad bought a lot of cows from him. He and his wife [Mary (Osburn) Waring] would drive [the cattle] halfway up on the hill up and then we would pick them up and [bring] them on. MH: What do you remember about “Slim?” VH: He was a good man. MH: Was he tall [or] short? VH: [He was] a big tall [man]. MH: [Was he] a [fairly] good cowboy? VH: One of the tops! MH: Would you buy cattle from him and take [them] back over towards Moccasin? VH: He would sell them as soon as we got them into Kanab [Kane County, Utah]. He loaded them into trucks. MH: Did you stay down here after Tony took the lease over? VH: No. I was still in Las Vegas [Nevada] working helping Tony get money to keep this [ranch] going. When [things] got a little better, I told him I wanted to come and go to work. He said, “Come on.” MH: Have you been down here ever since? [Laughter] VH: Oh, this is home! [Laughter] MH: Was the idea, primarily, to ranch when you and Tony first [came] down here? VH: Yes. MH: Where did the idea for the Bar-10 [Ranch] come from? VH: You know, I don’t know. Somebody [was at] the [Colorado] River [and saw] what went on [when] these boats [went] by. We [went] down and [talked to] a couple of the big [boat owners] and [asked] them why [they] didn’t take them on down to the lake. “You are wasting your money.” Tony said, “If you will do that, I will build a nice lodge up here; then you [will be] making money all the way.” [This] worked out beautifully for him. So I came out and helped him build the lodge. MH: Did everything for this lodge have to come over that road? Every nail? Every piece of pipe? VH: [Laughter] That is a history there! When we came down off the [inaudible] down here we stuck one end in the truck. We would pile brick and everything up on it. You could come down and it would swing way out. [Laughter] Then you could come around to the other one and it would drag. It was [inaudible] getting [material] down here. MH: I bet it was! VH: Whatever came down was just whatever car came. Sometimes [it was] a touring car. Sometimes [it was] a pickup. MH: [Laughter] A lot of them [came] down. How did you get them all back up? Was the air strip here when you first [started]? VH: [There was] just a little short one down here. MH: As I remember, it was very short. VH: Yes, and you would [have to] turn in kind of a half moon down around those rocks. [Laughter] That is the way those [men] would come around. MH: I haven’t seen the new strip. Who built that? Did you develop that? VH: We did. Tony did. MH: How does the operation work? The guests come off the river [and] how do they come up? What do they do when they get here? VH: We used to bring them up out of the canyon with horses and mules. Then we had an old school bus [that] we would put [the guests] in and bring them up here. But [one] time we didn’t have [inaudible]. We just dumped them out down here where that little shed was. MH: [Didn’t] there used to be sort of a sun shade down there? VH: Yes. Ruby [Heaton] called it a Bologna Restaurant because she would expect at a certain time to give them sandwiches and they would be late [because] we would blow tires. That is another thing that he [wanted to do and that was to have] programs [for] the people. MH: When did you first start bringing river runners out [here]? VH: It would be back in 1955 when I went to [Las] Vegas. That is about when he started to bring them [out]. MH: When did they improve the strip and start using helicopters? VH: [That was] probably about five or six years [ago]. [About 2000.] MH: Then not only did the Bar-10 [Ranch] become a way stop for the river runners, but it has become a resort in of itself. VH: People come! A lot of the people [who] come will stay here a week. They will be on their bikes or their ATV’s [all terrain vehicles]. They go to all of the places up here where they can travel and look. It is very good. MH: Can you still get up Hell Hole and up to [the] Mt. Logan [Wilderness Area in Arizona]? Is that road still rough? VH: It is just about washed out. You have to hike. There are [a] lot of rocks you have to go up over. MH: How many miles is it from here to St. George [Washington County, Utah]? VH: [It is] about eighty [miles]. MH: How many times have you driven that? VH: Once a week! [Laughter] MH: For fourteen years? VH: Not quite that. Tony keeps talking [that] we [should] come up and go to church. I just [say], “I like it down here.” He finally got me to go to church so I drive up every week [laughter] except the last four weeks. I stayed down [here] because there was too much water coming down. MH: There was some water in that wash coming down. How many people work down here? Is the full summer your busiest time? VH: They have about twelve girls and maybe four boys because they do the horseback riding and picking up [items]. It works out [very well]. MH: [Do] you stay down here all winter? It looks like your season is getting longer all the time. It will be year round before long. VH: This is home! [Laughter] MH: Don’t you get a break along about January and February? VH: That is when I like it. I used to be able to stay down here all by myself during the winter. Tony and the boys would come down when it [started] snowing to check and see [if] I was okay. I like it down here myself. MH: I have a question about that but I will save it for later. Let’s go back to those early days when “Slim” Waring was still around and some of the old-time [fellows]. They lived out here. How did they make it? VH: “Slim” and his wife did [well]. They had a nice home over there. MH: How many [head of] cattle did he normally have? VH: Gosh, I don’t know what he sold. It was quite a bit. MH: Did you ever meet Preston Nutter? VH: No, I didn’t. I didn’t know anything about him until I came down here and started hearing stories about him. MH: Have you been over to the Copper Mountain Mine? VH: I never got over there. MH: How far [is it] from here to the Grand Canyon, to the [bank of the Colorado] River? VH: [It is] about ten miles. It [takes] about an hour, not quite, to walk down to the river and about an hour to come back out if you are walking. MH: When you are busy in the summer, how many people do you run through here in a day? VH: About 10,000! MH: [Laughter] VH: Oh, in a day? MH: Yes. I thought you were doing a John Riffey on me, pulling my leg a little! VH: No, that [would be] during the season. Gosh, there will be four or five companies that come up here. Then we have a group that will come up here and stay at night. They will bring them in and they go on down the river for a two or three day trip. MH: You probably [are fairly] busy [at the] air strip with all those planes coming in. VH: Oh man! The [airplanes] we have now are good. They pull down and shut down one engine and load [the people] up and they get them over [the canyon]. They used to come in like [inaudible] [and make] four or five trips to wherever they were going. Now in an hour they are gone. MH: The air strip is a little longer now, too. VH: [Laughter] Yes. MH: Did you ever know John Riffey and ever get over to Tuweep? VH: I loved Riffey! He was a good man. MH: There are a lot of stories about John. What is your best John Riffey story? VH: I knew there were some people down at the rim [of the Grand Canyon who] were tearing everything up. Back then, you never [had] a uniform, just the poor ranger’s clothes. MH: John never wore a uniform. VH: He went down there and told those [fellows], “Listen, I just came by the ranger up there and he is coming down. He is going to put you in jail if you don’t get this [area] cleaned up before [he gets here]. I just thought I would tell you so you will do it.” We came back up here and he said, “That way, I don’t have a lot of paper work.” [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] They didn’t know they had been talking to the ranger! VH: I brought [some] bakers from [Las] Vegas [who I knew] when I was working down there. It was after dark when I [arrived and in] deer season time. So I drove down to Tony’s place. [A few of them] came down and were out there with a great big old flashlight. [Tony] was a-cussing me [about] what I was doing. I said, “I just wanted to take the boys down and show them.” He said, “That is alright.” [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MH: When was the lodge here completed? Has it been like this for many years? VH: I am just trying to think. We built this lodge in 19 ─. I don’t remember when it was [built]. MH: You said you have been down here fourteen years. So has it been within the last fourteen years? VH: They built it before I came MH: Really? VH: I came out and helped them [build it]. MH: So it has been here for ten or fifteen years or longer. Do you also use the area here as a lodge for retreats? Do people come in and stay for a week or so? VH: Yes. [When] the first of the month comes, they go up to the office and [arrange] it so we have food and [supplies for] whatever they want to do. We usually [do this] early in the spring or late in the fall when we don’t [have] the river boats. It works out [fairly well]. MH: It would be a good shoulder season. Other than John Riffey and some of the other ranchers, [who else did you know]? Did you know Al Craig? VH: Yes. MH: Did you know [Vivian August] “Pat” Bundy? VH: Yes. MH: What is your best “Pat” Bundy story? VH: I never [heard many] of his stories. I was young. I would go with dad up to [their] farm to buy cows. He was quite a character! MH: Yes, he was quite a character! What is the funniest thing that ever happened to you out here? VH: Gosh, I don’t know. I love it [here]! [Laughter] MH: What is the worst thing that ever happened to you out here? VH: Getting on a little horse and [being] bucked off right there in the rocks! [Laughter] MH: I can imagine that hurt! That will happen, won’t it? [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MH: What are the brands of [the] cattle [that] you are running down here now? VH: Bar-10. MH: Bar-10 is your brand. What are the breeds? VH: A little bit of everything. We have the cows in a herd up here. [Inaudible] MH: Do they do well in the heat? VH: They do [very well]. MH: Do you [have them on the] range down here all year? VH: No. We take them up on top and over [inaudible]. They also bought a [small] ranch that Esplins used to have. We take the cows over there. They have a place at Panguitch [Garfield County, Utah]. [The cattle that have been] here go up there now. MH: Do you truck them out of here? Do you drive them up on top and put them in the trucks? VH: We drive them up to the top and take them up. The ones that they got from the herd, we take them out to the mountain [inaudible]. MH: Do you still have your first saddle? VH: No, it disappeared. It was an old cavalry [saddle]. That was rough riding! [Laughter] MH: [So] you got yourself a little more comfort! VH: When I got to be the [National Park Service] Ranger, dad came down with a brand new saddle. Man, I was in heaven! All the Esplin boys [who] were my age wanted to ride it. I never got to ride it very much to start with. [TAPE RECORDER TURNED OFF] MH: When Ned started here ─ what? VH: He took over [inaudible]. MH: You were here when [the area was] made a monument, weren’t you? VH: Yes. MH: I have a couple of questions for you. The first question [is]: what is it about you [folks] who live out here on the [Arizona] Strip that [makes you feel that] there is no place on earth like it? What is the allure? What is it out here that keeps you [fellows] here? VH: Cowboying. MH: You like cowboying? VH: Yes, cows. MH If the cows weren’t here, I bet you would still be here. VH: Eventually half of us will be gone, I think. MH: But you will still want to go back to the [Arizona] Strip. VH: I will go someplace else! [Laughter] MH: The [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument exists, the fact [is] that it is here. How would you like to see it managed and administered? What do you think [would] be the best thing they [could] do with it? VH: I don’t know. They are doing a [fairly] good job. I really like them [and] their boss man. MH: Would you like to see them pave the roads? VH: No. I wouldn’t want to see [roads] paved but I would like to see [them] made smoother. MH: [Maybe] graded once in awhile? VH: Graded a little bit. They want to leave it natural. MH: This year has been a [fairly] wet winter. Are [the] wildflowers out yet? VH: They [aren’t] up here, but down [at] the river they are starting to blossom. The cactus is coming out. MH: I really appreciate talking to you. Hopefully, I can come back in a couple of weeks and talk to you again. VH: I hope you get enough good stories. MH: I am getting what I wanted! It is just about right. [END OF TAPE]
Stanley “Stan” M. Schmutz | Oral History
Stanley “Stan” M. Schmutz was interviewed on February 8, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon- Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Stanley “Stan” M. Schmutz was interviewed on February 8, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon- Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: How [did] your family get out on the [Arizona] Strip? Were you out there early? SS: My granddad [John Schmutz] was called to help build The [Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] temple [in St. George]. He and my grandmother [Clorinda (Schlappi) Schmutz] were called to manage the saw mill [on the Arizona Strip]. That is how we got there. Granddad [had] most of his property around St. George. All [of the area where the] Stone Cliff [Development is] was his homestead. Dad [John Henry Schmutz] took up the first homestead in Tuweep. I believe that was [in] 1916. There was a big broad canyon [that] came down from the top of the fault, down to the valley and flattened out. Dad built a big reservoir there. How the hell he did it, I don’t know. He had [some] mules. MH: Did he use mules and a Fresno scraper? SS: Yes. MH: That was a lot of work. SS: A lot of work! Dad was used to that. He went down to the lower end [of the valley] and plugged off one of the draws that ran down into the canyons. It [was] wasting the water down in the [canyon]. He built a big dam across and kept the water up on top. That was the only water I ever remember being there. He backed the water up [fairly] high there. Then he went to the south side of [the valley] and built another big dam so [the water] couldn’t run off that way. MH: Your dad didn’t farm, he ranched, right? SS: Yes, dad ranched most of his life. He farmed a hell of a lot of it! But it was ranching. MH: Did you grow up out on the ranch or in St. George? SS: I [was] out there the first few years. When we started school, we had to come in [to St. George]. We spent a lot of time with dad out there; dad, I and Gus Fullerton. Gus was working for Jack Finley and we rode together a lot. We were down in the neighborhood of; oh, what was his name, he used to drink a lot. MH: “Old Man” [James “Jim”] White? SS: No, he was in that neighborhood. MH: Bill Shanley? SS: No, he used to drink a lot. What was his name? [Laughter] MH: Did he make whiskey? SS: No, he didn’t make it. MH: It wasn’t one of the Kents was it? SS: No. MH: Cunningham? SS: No, Billy used to work for Jack a lot. MH: Billy Bink? He was a cowboy. SS: Yes, [he was]. What was his name? MH: Was it Billy Bink? SS: No, he was down [at] Little Tank, over [in] Main Street [Valley]. I don’t remember much about him. He [Billy Bink] drowned. MH: That is right. He drowned taking cattle across the Colorado River. SS: Yes; [if] I remember correctly, he met [the cowboys] on this side of the river. They were having trouble getting the cattle across [and the] water was cold. He jumped on a horse called “Dixie.” Somebody else [had been] riding him that day. Billy jumped on him and started loping for the water to get the horse to go out in. Billy Bink always carried a hog-leg [pistol] on his hip. He got “Dixie” into the water, but he got him into one of those ─ MH: Whirlpools? SS: Whirlpool [or] eddies. He could see the horse was going down, [so] he climbed up as high as he could on his neck. Hell, I remember they [went] out there looking for him. They finally found [that] the horse had drowned and Billy did too. MH: When you were living out on the ranch, did you have any brothers and sisters out there? SS: Yes, my younger brother Ray [Schmutz], he is two years younger than me. There was just the two of us. Mother [Ada Cornelia (Snow) Schmutz] and dad used to go out there [during the] summer. Mother didn’t like it a damn bit! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] SS: No electricity and no refrigeration! But mother was a good old soul [and] she stuck with dad. So we spent the summers out there. MH: What kind of cattle did you run? SS: They were white face Herefords. We had [fairly] good cattle. [Preston] Nutter used to run roan [red] Durham. I thought [they] were the raunchiest looking cattle! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] SS: [They] never were fat [and] poor as a crow. They looked to me like [fairly] worthless cattle. MH: What was your brand? SS: UN, combined. MH: Whose idea was that? SS: I don’t know. I had never heard of it before. I guess it was dad’s [idea]. I don’t know where he got it. MH: I’ll be darned. SS: Marcel [Ervin Schmutz], dad’s brother, [used] K N brand. [Another brother], Wilfred A. [Antone Schmutz], branded with a quarter circle K. The [cattle] they owned together [were branded] Bar 10. MH: Tony Heaton uses that [brand] now. SS: Yes but he just ─ MH: He just bought it. SS: Yes, he is a moocher! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] SS: He bought a bunch of cattle from Howard and had trouble paying for them. Tony was a plunger [speculator] but he fancied the Bar 10 [brand]. He said, “Let me have that brand and I’ll brand my cattle with [it]. The [cattle] that I have paid for I will keep and you can do what you want with the others.” Yes, Tony has a big lodge down there in Whitmore [Canyon]. He has lots of water there, too. MH: Yes, he piped the spring down [there]. Who were your neighbors when you were out there? SS: Bud Kent brought his two brothers, three sisters and all the [fellows] that he could hire to take up a homestead. They took up [all of] Tuweep. MH: [They] took up the [whole] valley? SS: Yes. MH: [Did] the Kents build [the] church out there? SS: Bud’s wife, Mattie. She was a “holy-roller”, I believe. She built [it] up by the road. She would walk up there every day, cold, rain or snow. It wasn’t much of a church, just one tiny room. [It] kind of bothered me [and] I’m glad they burned [it] down. MH: How come? SS: The BLM [Bureau of Land Management] made it look like people were coming there to church. Hell, they never went to church there. MH: Nobody went to church there? SS: Gad, no! MH: [Laughter] SS: That was damned deceit [and] I don’t know who started it. Mattie would go up there alone. Nobody was there. She would go up there alone and stay most of a morning, snow [or] rain. MH: Who were some of the other neighbors besides the Kents? SS: Billy Cunningham and his boy Raz [who] married one of the Kent girls, Ruth Kent. They used to work for us and Jack [Finley]. They could keep [fairly] busy then. How they could make any money, [laughter] just not [any] money in it. Billy [Bink] built a [fairly] good four-roomed house. [It was] a lumber shack but it kept them out of the weather. [Billy] Bink built a pond four miles down the valley from dad. I think Raz only took up [homesteaded] 320 [acres]. I think that was all they let [anyone] take up then. Yes, I’m [fairly] sure it was. They had to have horses, so they got any damn crow bait [horse] they could [find]. [They were] damn wild [and] crazy cusses. They couldn’t corral them. I sat up there [at] dad’s [ranch] and watched them chasing those horses, trying to get them in the corral. Hell, they just ran right past it! I know something about that because I tried to help them once or twice. They couldn’t get them in the corral. Raz liked to be a bronco-buster. He liked to ride bucking horses. MH: [Did] he like to break them? SS: Yes, he broke a lot [of horses] for Kent. That was another thing, Kent didn’t have any water. He built [a] pond up above dad’s place. Dad made him tear [it] out because he was [on] dad’s filings [homestead]. Dad and he nearly came to blows. Dad had to get the law to make [him] tear [the pond] out. Because he had the filings on those draws and Kent didn’t. But Kent put [the pond] in anyway. He tried to water those nags of his. Hell, he had hundreds of horses up there and no water. He would drive them down to dad’s place, water them and take them back up. That used to irk me something fierce. I said, “Dad, why don’t you cut him off. He wouldn’t water your [animals] if you didn’t have water. You [would] just [be] out of luck.” He never had enough water. MH: Do you remember the [Al] Craig family? SS: Yes, I remember when they [moved] in. Al and the old lady they called Grandma Craig. MH: Wasn’t [she] his mother-in-law? SS: I think [she] was. MH: Or his mother, I forget which. SS: They settled on the north side of Mt. Trumbull. There was a Mel Terry [who] took up a homestead there. Mel went broke and sold to Al [Craig]. Al was something of a mechanic [and] had a garage. I remember him telling how he got up Quail Hill out here. They would go as far as they could, unload, then go a little further, bring the [items] up to where they [were], load up again and go up a little further! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] SS: We used to do that too. Granddad used to have [an] old Model-T [Ford]. There was a brake, a reverse peddle in the middle, low gear and forward peddle on the left side. Hell, that old thing just didn’t have the power to do [the hill]! I’ve seen [some] German cars like that. MH: Volkswagens? SS: [They didn’t have any] gas. They had a water tank in the back seat and they would build a fire in there ─ MH: [It was] steam driven. SS: ─ and generate the gas there. Gad, they wouldn’t pull your hat off! MH: [Laughter] SS: Gutless damn things! How the hell [did] Germany get anything [to work]. MH: What was Al Craig doing? Was he ranching? Did he have cows? SS: Yes, Al kept his cattle up there in the summer [and] then he would take them over to S B Canyon and winter them there. That place had lots of grass in it. Jack Finley’s cowboys would go over there and spend the winter in S B Canyon. MH: How did it get the name S B Canyon? SS: [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] Just like it sounds? SS: Just like it sounds! [Laughter]. It was north and east of Tuckup [Canyon]. It was quite a bit like Tuckup [Canyon]. MH: Did you ever have cattle in Tuckup [Canyon]? SS: Yes. Granddad always kept a bunch [of cattle there]. He [also] kept a bunch of half-scatterbrained horses there, [they were] wild cusses. Yes, he always had twenty-five or thirty head of horses and about that same number of cattle. MH: Do you remember the story of “Old Man” White and how he [was] killed? SS: Yes. “Old Man” White lived on the north side of the mountain and he had a [fairly] good spring there. I guess it was filed in his name. Ray and I finally got it, and we piped it down to Tuweep. They hired Rod Leavitt [and] he took his caterpillar up there and brushed it all out. I guess there is a lot of water there, so I’m told; I never did see it. We could never get it to run much. MH: Was “Old Man” White was killed over that spring? SS: Some girl brought a bunch of horses up there to water them and he threatened her. She took the horses back down and told her dad. He brought [the horses] back up with her. I guess they got to jangling over what was said and what wasn’t said. The old boy took a shot at “Old Man” White and blew his shoulder off. I believe it was his shoulder. The old man would have died anyway. Gad, when he bought new clothes he just put them on over his old ones! MH: [Laughter] SS: I was scared of that old bird! MH: You didn’t want to be around him? SS: No, I didn’t want to be around him. MH: Do you remember John Riffey, the [National Park Service] ranger at Tuweep? SS: Yes. Riffey fell heir to the [National] Park Service caterpillar. He had a name for everything. MH: That [caterpillar] was [called] “Desdemona.” SS: Yes, he helped us put in some of the tanks when we piped [water] down to [the] lower Kent place. We put in a big steel tank. It was about ten feet across [and] ten feet deep. We poured a cement floor and made the tank out of sheet metal. Then we took some rubberized [material] [that we] put between the sheets of metal and bolted [them together]. MH: So [it] wouldn’t leak? SS: So it wouldn’t leak, but eventually it did [start] to leak. When we sold [the land], it was still leaking quite badly. We boarded it with a dirt wall so it wouldn’t, but it still kept leaking. It would get between ─ MH: [The] seams on the metal? SS: ─ [where] the sheets came together. Then they put a layer of, I don’t know what you call it, [but] they put it between [and] we would tar it up good and bolt it. It held [fairly well] for a long time. MH: Is that tank still there today? SS: Yes, I think it is. We used it for a long time and then the government scraped out a big pond down on the park side of the fence and we used that. I believe Riffey built that. MH: When John Riffey went down there, was he actually there to oversee the grazing? SS: John was down there about the time the Taylor Grazing [Act] came in, that was [June 28,] 1934. Yes, John did a lot of pond work. He built a good big pond just over the fence from Kent. That was where our cattle watered. We had a permit for 150 [head of cattle]. I have forgotten now, seems like it was [for] 150 head of cattle on that [permit]. He was way up this side of the lower end. There was a little spring [where] we used to camp when we went over to Tuckup [Canyon]. MH: [Was that] Saddle Horse Spring? SS: Yes. It never did run much water. MH: Who put the pump [in] that was out there? There was a little gas engine pump out at Saddle Horse [Spring]. Did you put that out there? SS: [John] Riffey must have [put] that [in]. On a dry year you could drive your horses and get them a-tromping down and they would get down to water. A little seepage would come in and you could water them there. They would tromp it enough so the water would come seeping back in. One year dad and I went down there and we couldn’t get any water to come, so we hobbled [the horses] out that night. They went on around the ledges there and up to, what was his name? All I knew him by was McCormick. He had a boy [who] took over [for] him. They had a spring down around from [Saddle] Horse Springs, [about] twenty miles [away], I guess. They built some corrals. They had a [fairly] good spring there but it was [full of] minerals. Gad, it would go right through you! MH: [Laughter] You didn’t drink it? SS: You could but you ─ MH: Wished you hadn’t! SS: [Laughter] You could look down on that from up [on] top of Tuckup [Canyon]. We would go over there. You could ride out on that point, look down and you could see it. Dad told me, “Don’t drink much of that water because it will go right through you.” It sure did! Anyway, my dad followed our horses from no water at [Saddle] Horse Springs, followed them on around hobbled and came around McCormick’s spring. [The horses] knew where that [spring] was, so [the horses] got water there. [Dad] had to walk all that [way]. MH: He had to walk? SS: I guess he must have walked thirty miles to get there. [Laughter] MH: John Riffey had an airplane. SS: He had a name for that too. MH: It was called “Pogo.” I understand you took a ride in that [airplane] one time. SS: Yes, I did. [Laughter] MH: Did you want to? SS: I didn’t want to go. [Laughter] We were cutting stray [cattle] up on the mountain. We put up a fence to keep the cattle from going up to Nixon [Springs] from Tuweep. We had the fence all built and I chopped down through the top of my foot. I had a good sharp axe [with] a short handle. Gad, I cut right down through my foot! [It] bled like a stuck horse. We got in the pickup and went down to Riffey’s [place] and [had] him fly me to [town]. MH: [Did he] fly you into St George? SS: I guess Riffey must have thought it was serious, he didn’t even stop to warm his airplane up. He just taxied out there. We drove down to it and loaded me in. Oh gad, it was bleeding like a stuck pig! MH: [Laughter] SS: We came to this old airport [in St. George]. Riffey radioed in and my wife [Harvey Schmutz] came out to get me in her car. I guess they thought I was sure a sad looking creature. [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] You were lucky John had that airplane there! SS: Yes, you bet! MH: You may not have made it in without it. You might have bled to death. SS: Yes, it [would have] been several hours in the pickup. He did me that [favor]. Ray took him out a barrel of gas ─ MH: [Laughter] SS: ─ to pay for it. “Pogo” was a little Piper Cub, I believe.. MH: It was a Piper Cub. SS: As I remember I sat behind him and it took about an hour to get to St. George in that little [airplane]. Yes, it was some trip! MH: I bet it was! [Laughter] Where was [the] Witch [Pool]? SS: What? MH: [The] Witch [Pool] was a water catchment up on [Mt.] Trumbull but north of your place, I believe. That doesn’t ring a bell? SS: No. You go up dad’s canyon and out on top we built a catchment [pond]. Let’s see, we used sheet metal for [the] apron. I don’t remember what they called it. It saved us two or three years [when] we kept our cattle up there all winter long. We built a sheet metal apron off the top of a knoll and about halfway down we put a valve in. I was sold on those [valves] [and] that was one good way of getting water. MH: That was how John got his water; he had a catchment [pond] behind his cabin. SS: The BLM [Bureau of Land Management] put one in further north near down quite a ways north. As I remember, [one] road came in this way and another one came in this way and they formed a vee. The BLM put [a catchment pond] in there with [a] plastic apron. I remember taking cattle up there [many times] because that was the only water in the winter time. That was a blessing. It was like drilling a well there. That was a good thing. Hell, I think we spent about $30,000.00 on the one we put in, and I guess the BLM must have spent nearly that much [also]. The road came in from Fredonia [Arizona] like this, down past there. Let’s see, who was that? He called it the Red Blanket Ranch. Hell, he came in [on] this road from Fredonia and went down about three miles along there. Gad, he built a big pond there. He had lots of water whenever I was there. A lot of our cattle would get over there so I hated the damn place! You would have to go get them! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] When you left St. George to go out to the ranch, which way would you go? Did you go up Quail Canyon and down to Bundyville [Arizona] or did you go over to Colorado City [Arizona]? SS: [We went through] Colorado City. MH: [Through] Colorado City and Clayhole [Wash]. SS: If we had to take a good-sized truck, we would go that way. We would go out to Hildale [Washington County, Utah]. [Ray] Esplin bought out Roy Woods and had a bunch of wells piped to the top of Cedar Ridge and piped it on to Clayhole Flats from there. Lindau Foremaster [had] a spring there. What did he call that? I think he called it Lost Spring. He piped [water] out to there too. MH: When you sold your cattle, did you take them into St. George or truck them to Cedar City [Iron County, Utah? SS: We [would] truck them to St .George. [At] first we trailed them in here ─ MH: How long would that take? SS: About a week. MH: [It took] about a week to push them in [here]. SS: That was slow! The Christensen brothers had about a 300-acre pasture there. They had plenty of water and we would trail [cattle] there and [leave] them for a week. They would eat all the feed off in that time! [Laughter] Then, what is that bank? MH: Is it Zions [Bank]? SS: No, it isn’t Zions [Bank]. MH: Wells Fargo [Bank]? SS: No, there used to be a big-sized [hill] there. You could ride up on top and see all over the pasture. MH: When you got the cows into St. George, [would] the buyer would come down and pick them up? SS: No, then we would drive them on to Modena [Iron County, Utah]. MH: You would trail them all the way up to Modena? SS: All the way. MH: That would take a little while. SS: [It would take] two weeks. MH: Did you have good horses? SS: We always had good horses in those days! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] SS: It they weren’t good horses, we would give them to somebody else and get better ones! [Laughter] Yes, we had lots of good horses. MH: I think I [have] talked [with] you about this before: what was your favorite saddle? SS: N. Porter, [from N. Porter Saddle and Harness Company in] Phoenix, Arizona. MH: You liked [the] Porter saddle? SS: Yes. Dad had one and he got one for me. A [fellow] named Buster Vaughn came out to ride for Jack. He went up into Wyoming or somewhere. He wrote dad a letter, “If you will send my belongings, my bed and personal [items], I’ll give you that saddle.” Oh hell, it was a beauty! It was a peach of a saddle. [It was] flower stamped. It was a good saddle [and] I was [very] proud of [it]! [Laughter] MH: [Laughter] [Do] you still have it? SS: Yes. MH: I’ll be darned! SS: Yes, my daughter has it now up in Ephraim [Sanpete County, Utah]. I [have] an old Hanley ─ MH: Hanley [was] from Oregon. SS: ─ up there too. Uri Jordan used to own it. He punched cows for Jack for years and years. How in the hell did I get it from him? I have forgotten now. MH: I’m going to ask you one question [that] I don’t think you are ready for, but I’m going to ask you anyway. SS: [Laughter] Okay! MH: What is it about that Arizona Strip that you [folks] just can’t get it out of your system? All of you, the Bundys, [the] Mathises [and] Schmutzes, you all want to go back on the [Arizona] Strip. SS: Yes. [We call it] out south! [Laughter] I don’t know; we just liked it there. There is [a] lot of country out there and lots of cowboys. I guess there are lots of sheep men, too. MH: Not many sheep [men] now, no sheep. SS: No. When the BLM came in, they stopped the sheep from going any further south than the Bundyville schoolhouse. They stopped them there. [END OF TAPE – SIDE ONE] MH: They brought all the horses in? SS: The Walking X [brand]. MH: The Walking X [brand] and whose outfit was that? SS: Brooks, Vic Hail and [George W.] “Jockey” Hail. MH: Did most of those old cowboys wear a gun? SS: No, I haven’t seen one with a gun. Roy Woods was the last one that I ever saw wear a gun. Billy Bink used to carry one and [so did] Roy Woods. They were coming in with a herd of cattle one fall [and were] down [at] Willard Iverson’s place ─ MH: That would have been [in the] Main Street [Valley on the Arizona Strip]. SS: Yes. There was a [fellow] running the chuck wagon. I believe his name was “Ray” [Raymond] Holt. He saw Roy Woods riding up towards him and he was camped there. So he ran around to his bunk and got his rifle out. [He] put it by the hind wheels of the chuck wagon. When Roy Woods come blundering up there ─ [he] was an old dude! [Laughter] MH: What happened? Did [they] get in a fight? SS: They [started] to argue and Roy was going to shoot Holt. Holt said. “By gad, he is not going to shoot me, I’ll get him first”. He picked up his Winchester and walked around by the chuck wagon. I believe Woods took a potshot at him. He wasn’t much of a shot. MH: He missed him? SS: [Laughter] Anyway, Holt plunked him one. It went in here and up under his arm. His horse went loping off up by Iverson’s barn. They finally got [the horse] stopped and went down to Rosenberry’s homestead. There were usually a bunch of cars there. I think there was a [fellow] by the name of [inaudible] had a car down there. What the hell kind, I don’t know! They took him down there, loaded him in the car and brought him to St. George. MH: Did he live? SS: Yes, he lived and he always carried that big six-gun for years after that. The doctor here in St George took care of him. MH: Let’s go back to [the] question about the [Arizona ] Strip. What is it that always brings you [folks] back? SS: [Laughter] I just want to go [there]! MH: You just want to go; you, Orvel [Bundy] and Reed [Miles] Mathis. SS: Reed Mathis spent most of his life out there. MH: Yes, and he still wants to go back there. SS: He still goes back. [Laughter] MH: He is ninety-six or ninety-seven [years old] now. SS: Yes. I don’t know, it is just a big country and [a] lot of interesting [events] took place [out] there over the years. MH: Do you think they should keep ranching out there? SS: Ray and I did [ranch out there] until about ten years ago. MH: Do you think they should [continue] letting [folks] ranch out there? SS: I’d like to, but there isn’t any money in it. You are too damn far from the railroad and there isn’t any money in it. Ray and I managed to stay there for a long time because we always fed 300 or 400 head [of cattle] in the [St. George] Fields. We raised feed and kept a bunch of cattle here. But it is damned hard work [and] it isn’t worth it. Gad, by the time you figured up what you have [invested] in it, you would be a lot better off doing something else. MH: But you still want to go back! [Laughter] SS: Yes, I’ll go back every chance I get! [Laughter] [END OF TAPE – SIDE TWO]
Last updated: April 5, 2024
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Public Lands Visitor Center
345 East Riverside Drive
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UT
84790
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