The Veterans’ History Project at KEMO serves to highlight veterans as well as active military who have served or are currently serving our country. This project highlights differing perspectives, branches, and timefames to compare and contrast experiences. Our park is a battlefield site; therefore, this project offers a vital connection to past, present, and future military stories.
Another component of this project is to bring a greater awareness of these soldier accounts into the classroom, providing a better understanding of our shared history. These stories were gathered and compiled by Susan Caolo from October 2017 through February 2018. The interviews will become part of the Library of Congress’s Veterans History Project, housed in Washington, D.C.
The audio clips featured are a portion of the full interview conducted with each participant. The interviews are categorized according to specific themes addressed. These themes are highlighted in the student workbook that complement the oral history project.
Themes:
Emotions (Fear, Sadness, Happiness. Connections to others in your group)
Equality (What roles did you hold? Women in military now - then - changes)
Family (Juggling career and family)
Reasons for Enlisting
Advice for future generations
Importance of Technology for the modern military
Gus Tramonte, U.S Marine Corps
Image Credit - Gus Tramonte
Gus Tramonte
Branch: U.S Marine Corps
Rank: Corporal
Dates of Service: 1941 - 1945
Conflicts: WWII, Guadalcanal, Bourganville
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Sharp Shooter, Saxaphone in Military Band
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Emotions/Connections to Others
[Female and male talk in a quiet setting. Older man speaks slow.]
Gus: At that time, the planes weren’t as good as they are today. We were not prepared for that war.
Susan: In what way were we not prepared?
Gus: I was 21 in boot camp.
Susan: Where did you go to boot camp?
Gus: San Diego, California.
Susan: Oh, you did go to San Diego cuz you were west of the Mississippi.
Gus: Yes.
Susan: How did you get out there?
Gus: Train.
Susan: You took the train.
Gus: At that time, we had to cross the Mississippi River. The train had to cross. They didn’t have the bridges at the time, so we crossed on barges.
Susan: Was it all military people on the train?
Gus. Yes.
Susan: You remember that trip? Had you been out of Louisiana before?
Gus: No. Not to California, no.
Susan: How was it for you? Was it exciting? Uncomfortable? How was the train ride?
Gus: Well, it was my first train ride, so.
Susan: A couple days you had to be on the train. Do you know how long you trained in San Diego?
Gus: Boot camp was 8 weeks. Susan: Were you in pretty good shape?
Gus: I was. I was young then.
Susan: Was it tough?
Gus: Boot Camp was tough, yeah. By the time you got out of boot camp, there was nothing you couldn’t do physically. They put you through their training.
Susan: Were you stronger when you came out?
Gus: Yes.
Susan: Was there any particular area you did better in? Did you run? Were you a runner?
Gus: No, I played music.
Susan: That’s right! You played before you went in. Did you play in high school? What got you involved? What instrument did you play?
Gus: Yeah. Tenor Saxophone. Well, I just like music and I decided. They were furnishing instruments in school so that’s why.
Susan: Was there a band at school?
Gus: Yes. The school band.
Susan: New Orleans and Jazz so saxophone fits right in there. Did you play in a band outside of school?
Gus: I had a band of my own. And we played on Saturday and Sunday nights in a place called, West We Go. It was across the river, so you see West we go. And we played every Saturday and Sunday nights.
Susan: Was that for the public? Was it a restaurant?
Gus: Yes. It was a restaurant and a dance hall. It was on a hill. There was a levee there.
Susan: Even before the war started and we got involved, people were going out and dancing. Did that change? I assume Pearl Harbor was…
Gus: Yes. I went to work for a steel mill plant making steel barrels for the army. Then I decided I might as well join the Marines myself because of their reputation.
Susan: That seems to be the case. The Marines stand out. They’re a tough group.Do you remember when you got deployed?
Gus: Well, I think the training was about 8 weeks. Then training in California Then we shipped out from San Diego from a vessel, a ship. It wasn’t a regular army ship. It was really a poor ship for transporting troops because it took us about 14 days to get there.
Susan: Was it a small ship? They converted it from a civilian ship?
Gus: Yeah. It was a little freight ship. And on our way there, they didn’t have too much food on the ships. They would give you a sandwich and an apple or something to eat. And no accommodations other than that.
Susan: Did you know where you were going? Did you have orders?
Gus: I knew I was going to the South Pacific. I didn’t know the Guadacanal from any other place.
Susan: But how was that on the ship? Was it all Marines?
Gus: Navy and Marines.
Susan: Was everyone going for the first time?
Gus: Subleaners. Staff sergeants. And knew nothing about the place. Hadn’t heard of it before.
Susan: The trip. Going from San Diego to the Guadacanal, that had to be a pretty long trip.
Gus: Yeah. It was a long trip then because it was an old ship. It was an old vessel, we were not prepared for the war. Matter of fact, they were full ___, rifles, ammunition.
Susan: For young guys, you need to eat. You were probably hungry?
Gus: Right. Out of boot camp, we went to Matthew Camp to train with the rifles. It was an M-1 rifle. It was a good rifle at the time.
Susan: Were you used to shooting guns before you went into the Marines?
Gus: No.
Susan: But you were good. I saw you were a sharp shooter. So you took to it.
Gus: Yeah.
Helen (Crookham) Campbell, U.S Marine Corps
Image Credit - Helen (Crookham) Campbell
Helen (Crookham) Campbell
Branch: U.S Marine Corps
Rank: Sergeant
Dates of Service: 1943-1945
Conflict: WWII
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Link Flight Trainer
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Equality (womens roles in the military/ changes then and now), Family (juggling w/career), Reasons for enlisting
Helen (Crookham) Campbell Interview
Susan Caolo interviewing Helen (Crookham) Campbell
[Older female speaks with 2 younger females in a large space with lots of background music and talking.]
Susan: It’s 2017 and my name is Susan Caolo.
Helen: Susan, excuse me.
Susan: Caolo. Ca-o-low. It’s Italian. C-A-O-L-O.
Helen: [tries to pronounce last night] Como esta? Hola! Wi, si, hoy, si.
Susan: I think in the Navy they would say Carlo or Kalo to my dad.
Susan: Anyway, I’m with the Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park which is with the National Park Service in Kennesaw, Georgia. Today we are in Murrieta, Georgia and I’m interviewing Helen M. Campbell. And your maiden name was Crookham.
Helen: Yes.
Susan: What do we have here. You were with the U.S Marines, enlisted. And the dates of service.
Helen: 43 to 45.
Susan: August 31, 1943 to November 29, 1945. I know you’ve gone through this but I will let you explain the position. What did you actually do? First off, what made you join?
Helen: Because there were so many people joining in. They wanted to do something worthwhile.
Susan: It was something big. What was the news like? You heard on the radio. What was the … about the war?
Helen: Oh, well, yes, I heard on the news. I was living with my mother’s cousin at the time. I was going to San Francisco State College at the time. And it was a Sunday morning. And the radio came on. And I heard this. I went into the store; we had a Delicatessen. I said, “Pearl, turn on the radio. Make sure it’s on. There’s something wrong. There’s something going on here. We’ve got trouble….in the service.” So, anyway that’s how it started.
Other woman: Her cousin’s name was Pearl.
Helen: And his name was Price. Hahahaha. Other woman: How coincident, because she was staying with them and yelled, “Pearl” because she just heard about Pearl Harbor.
Susan: That was the big news because there was fighting in Europe but this was the Big Pacific. Were you scared? Did it seem real?
Helen: No, we were just kind of out of it. We just went with it. This was all happening. It was all new to us and we just listened and took it in.
Susan: Were there service men around you?
Helen: Oh yes. Oh yes. We had a big auditorium like this.
Other woman: The Presidio was there in San Francisco not far from where she went to school. The Presidio was where all the military was.
Helen: Yes, they were there. Right.
Susan: And you were still teaching? This was a Sunday and you went back to teaching on Monday.
Helen: Yes.
Other woman: Were you still in school? Were you still going to San Francisco State? That was ’41, right? Pearl Harbor was bombed in ’41. So, you were born in 1919. So, that was what 22. Were you out of San Francisco State by then?
Helen: Yes, I think had graduated. The whole thing; the big auditorium in San Francisco for….
Other woman: …where your graduation was. Susan’s asking, did you go back to teaching or were you still working with Pearl and Price at the time?
Helen: Oh no, I went back to teaching right away.
Other woman: Okay.
Susan: So you were teaching for awhile before you enlisted in the Marines.
Helen: Teaching for awhile, yes. But then I enlisted right away also. Yes.
Susan: What was that process like?
Helen: You just had to take the vows and do the things. Then, they put us through…..a process. We went to Boot Camp at Camp Buljoon in North Carolina. And spent 6 weeks or something doing that. From there, I was sent to Atlanta I became a link trainer and an instructor.
Susan: Now what’s a Link Trainer?
Helen: A Link Trainer is an assimilator. It was built to kind of to look like an airplane. It had mechanisms in it and wires and so forth. The idea was that these guys had to have certain amount of time in the practice field because of the weather, temperature and everything involved with that. They had to be involved with that. At least exposed to it. Let me put it that way. Might be a better way. They were exposed to all these things. So, I don’t know where I was going with this.
Other woman: You were telling her about the Link.
Helen: It was an automated thing. It had wires and communication. They could communicate with us.
Susan: They were training to be pilots. So this was giving them flight time, practice time.
Helen: Right. Absolutely, yes. They had to get certain amount of flight “time”.
Susan: Were they Air Force? Were you testing Air Force pilots? The Marines didn’t have pilots.
Helen: They had some pilots, yes. They weren’t the main part at that time as I recall, but there were pilots.
Joseph Dora, U.S Air Force
Image Credit - Joseph Dora
Joseph Dora
Branch: U.S Air Force
Rank: Staff Sergeant
Dates of Service: 1943-1946
Conflict: WWII
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Radio Operator, Gunner
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Emotions (connections to others)
[older man talks with female in a room with some background sounds.]
Susan: Today is December 26, 2017. My name is Susan Caolo. I am with the Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park. This is part of the Veteran’s History Project that we do in conjunction with the Library of Congress. And today I am with Joseph Dora who was with the U.S Army - Air Force at the time, World War 2. I’ll begin just getting you again to state your name and your rank and what years you were in.
Joseph: My name is Joseph H. Dora. I was a Staff Sergeant with the United States Army Air Forces.
Susan: And also if you could tell us when were you born and where were you born?
Joseph: I was born on October 1, 1924, in Gardner, Massachusetts.
Susan: How old were you when you enlisted?
Joseph: I was drafted, I was not enlisted. I was 18 years old. April 13, 1943.
Susan: When did you get out?
Joseph: I would say May of 1946.
Susan: Okay. You were in the Army – Air Force. That was before there was a separate Air Force. Did you have a choice for going into that?
Joseph: That’s right. I, no, I was drafted into the Army. Any place that the United States of America wanted to put me. That was their duty. They put me where they saw fit. I had no. They offered me to go into the Navy if I wish. But I didn’t want to go into the Navy. I had no idea. So, we were at Fort Devens, Massachusetts. That’s where….so we were at Fort Devens for 3 days walking around practically naked because they only production in the Army. They didn’t care about decency. Oh, I shouldn’t say decency….privacy. So, anyway, we all come out, or some of us came out. Next morning, we were gonna ship out. We had no idea. We got on a troop train. Right there at Fort Devens. They had the facilities there to have a train. The only thing…some of the smarter people than I noticed the Army people who were running the train all had Air Force emblems on their… so we said we’re on the Air Force. But I remember distinctly, no, we just delivering this train and we’re the last one to use it then we’re gonna return it when we get back. They wouldn’t tell us what we were on! Then, they made of that story.
Susan: [laughs] Why do you think they did that? Joseph: I have no idea! I have no idea! It was so silly. Honest to God, we didn’t know. We went down through Washington, D.C. We had K.P down in Washington, D.C. But anyway, we finally stopped in Jacksonville, Florida.
Susan: Oh?! By train?
Joseph: Yes, by train. They woke us up in the morning. . The train had stopped sometime during the night. Sometime early in the morning before the sun come up, we were woken up. Then, they told us to fall out of the train. Then they told us we were in the Army – Air Force. Jacksonville, Florida all the way from Fort D. It seems so silly.
Susan: Had you even been there before?
Joseph: Oh no, I’d never been out of Massachusetts before I don’t think.
Susan: Oh my goodness.
Joseph: So, I don’t remember how, must’ve been by truck. We went to Miami Beach. That’s where we had our Boot Training. It was really nice. We were in a hotel. It wasn’t the best hotel, but it was very nice. I don’t remember, like 4 in a row, or something. It had a nice veranda. So, that’s where we took our Boot Training in Miami Beach.
Susan: Oh. So you went from Jacksonville and they told you you were in the Army – Air Force. Then you went to Miami Beach.
Joseph: That’s right. That’s where they did all the administration work and the orientation and learn how to post and drill and stuff like that. You know that to induct us in the service. At that time, you could read bulletins. Some how or other I took a test for air training. I don’t know how I got to be a air miner. I was physically qualified to fly as air crew. That was a qualification to be determined by the Army, not me. So, I qualified to be on the air crew.
Lloyd Menin, U.S Army
Image Credit - Lloyd Menin
Lloyd Menin
Branch: U.S Army
Rank: Corporal
Dates of Service: 1953 - 1955
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Photographer
Jim Mathis, U.S Marine Corps
Photo Credit - Jim Mathis
Jim Mathis
Branch: U.S Marine Corps
Rank: Corporal E4
Dates of Service: 1957 - 1960
Conflict: Lebanon Crisis (1958)
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Artillerist
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Reasons for Enlisting
Susan: What would you say would be the high point during the Marine time?
Jim: The people I met. The other Marines. I met people I didn’t even know existed. I met a guy who had been on the rodeo circuit. He had gotten all busted up. He was in the Marine Corps now and he was a bronc rider. They had….he went to college….he was an all-star bronc. In other words, they have all-star football players. Then, guys from Ney York, Philadelphia, from just everywhere.
Susan: You picked the right branch.
Jim: Yeah. There was another guy that went to high school with me. Actually, I met him in junior high and his father was in the Coast Guard. He cut so many days of school, he didn’t graduate with me. He ended up…his father got stationed in Sioux Ste. Marie in Michigan which is where he was originally from. Which is what the Coast Guard did with…I think he was a warrant officer or something. So Jack graduated from school up there and then went in the Marine Corps. I just talked to him last week. I call him every…well I talk to him 3 times a year. I went up and visited him recently. Call him on his birthday which is November 30th and he calls me on my birthday which is January 19th. We lament how old we’re getting.
Susan: Looking back is there anything you would’ve changed? You were like a typical teenager. So if a kid now is thinking of enlisting. That’s sort of 2 questions. Back at the time would you have changed something? Then right now what you tell someone considering military?
Jim: Oh, you know, it’s an experience. It’s not always pleasant. I’m kinda of the mind that we owe something to this country. In Israel, for instance, everyone goes in the military. There are a lot of countries where everyone does some time. I had a guy who graduated high school with me that belonged to a church that were conscientious objecters. He went up to Chicago and worked in a hospital for 2 years.
Susan: Through the military?
Jim: No. To do service. It may have been connected with the draft board or something, I don’t know. But, he was a conscientious objecter. My younger brother. He’s about 9 years younger than me. He went into the Marine Corps cuz I did. He was in Vietnam. You need to interview him. He was a gunner on a medi-vac helicopter picking up wounded.
Susan: Yeah, that’s a different. That’s your brother. Jim: Actually, we’re half brothers but he’s the closest family I’ve got.
Susan: So, it’s changed. You’re still in the comradery that remains strong?
Jim: Oh, I can’t say enough about Marines. I run into somebody out here that’s got a Marine Corps tag in their car. Oh, I walk across the street and say “Semper Fei” which is short for Semper Feidelus. Which is the Marine Corps motto, “Always Faithful”. Just saw a guy the other day walking with his puppy dog. It wasn’t until he pulled out, I saw his Marine Corps tag. So I watched for him the next time he came in. I went over to him and said, “You’re a Marine.” He said, “Yeah.” “Semper Fei.” We chatted. Turns out he owns Murietta Pizza. [laughs]
Susan: Do you belong to any of the Veteran organizations?
Jim: I don’t. No, I don’t. I’ve thought about… I started a little company to keep me out of trouble. I travel to Switzerland every summer and take people out there and go hiking in the Alps with them. So that keeps me pretty occupied. But walking on the mountain…
Susan: Which mountain?
Jim: Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park. Most of my friends, I’ve only lived in Georgia for 15 years, and most of my friends are people I’ve met hiking on this trail. And if somehow I can identify or that other person can identify me as a Marine, it’s always… The younger Marines go “Oooh- Rah” not to be confused with the Army, which has an H on the front. They go, “Hooo- Rah”. We do “Oooh-Rah.” But, ya know, I’m old. That wasn’t around when I was in. So, I’ll say, “Semper-Fei.” My friend who I walk with is an Air Force Veteran. He says to me, “How come when I see someone in the Air Force we don’t start talking and about where you were stationed?” [laughs] I says, “I don’t know what to tell ya.”
Susan: What do you think? Is it different?
Jim: It is different. Well, the Marine Corps small. I’ve heard it’s like a big fraternity. It’s small compared to the Army. Marine Corps, if it has 100, it might be 70,000 right now…I don’t know what the level is. But rarely is it over 100 except for maybe World War 2…over 100,000 people. Well, the Army’s got, what 2 million? The Air Force has got all kinds of people. So, it’s just…you know the basic training is pretty difficult. It’s changed now. They have something called The Crucible. I didn’t go through it. It’s like 24 hours of hell at the end of…. It’s a comradery.
Susan: I hear that. Is there anything you want to add? There will be different people listening. You’ve covered a lot of like real normal; what an 18-year old would think of going in. But it’s been good for you. Jim: It’s been good for me. I don’t want to make people mad, but it’s better than living in your mama’s basement. It’s a job. You’re gonna get some benefits out of it. It’s a hard job. No matter what branch of the service. I use that G.I Bill not only to get my bachelor’s degree, but I realized I still had time on it. So, I got my master’s degree, most of it with that Veteran’s money.
Susan: What did you do your master’s in?
Jim: Computer Science. Actually, they called it Information Technology. And it was geared toward management. By that time, I was in to running a team or something.
Susan: Well, it sounds like you made a good thing of it. Well I’m gonna end it here. Thank you so much for taking the time and share this information.
Jim: It’s not very exciting.
Susan: Yes, it is.
Jay Haney, U.S Army
Image Credit - Jay Haney
Jay Haney
Branch: U.S Army
Rank: Major
Dates of Service: 1969 - 1995
Conflict: Vietnam War, The Cold War
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Advice for future generations, Importance of technology for the modern military
[man and woman talk - microphone noises and distant talking fill background] Susan: I’m gonna begin. Thank you again Jay for being here. Today is Friday, January 5, 2018. My name is Susan Caolo and I’m with the Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park in Kennesaw, Georgia. And doing the Veteran’s History Project along with the Library of Congress Veteran History Project in Washington, D.C. Today I am meeting with Jay Haney here at the Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park itself. I’ll begin. Thank you for coming, Jay. Let’s begin by giving me your full name and rank. What was your highest rank, branch of service and where you were when you began?
Jay: So Jay Haney. My highest rank was major and my component was United States Army. And I went straight from high school to West Point. That’s how I started my military career.
Susan: So, from high school?
Jay: Yes.
Susan: I kinda know it but can you tell us the circumstances on how you ended up at West Point?
Jay: They were rather different. I was National Merit Scholar. My guidance counselor…I was from Rey Town, Missouri. He recommended that I apply to the service academies, which I did; to all 3 of them. I got an appointment to the military academy as a 5th alternate which meant that there was a primary and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; I was the 6th man in line to go. So, at the same time, I had applied to a number of other places and I was accepted at a number of places. I selected Michigan State to study petroleum engineering. So, I was packing my bags to go to Michigan State. On June 20th, I got a telegram from the Army saying, “You’ve been appointed as a cadet to the United States Military Academy. Please report on the 30th of June.” Which is 10 days away.
Susan: Wait. Wait, okay, 10 days before?
Jay: 10 days before I was to report. I think, I thought about it a little bit and decided to take the appointment.
Susan: That’s a shift in gears.
Jay: No kidding.
Susan: And the fact you got a telegram. Was that delivered? No emails then.
Jay: It must’ve been delivered. When I came home, my mom had the telegram. So, it must’ve been delivered to the house. So, there’s a change for you. This was 1965. Long time ago.
Susan: So you went into the military academy. How many years was that?
Jay: Military academy is 3 years and 11 months. So, I graduated in June of 1969. At the time, everyone took the same curriculum. So, we were all graduated as Bachelor of Science. You averaged 21 semester credits. It was heavy math and engineering. All my electives, which were few and far between, were in military history.
Susan: Were you wanting to be deployed?
Jay: Well, when you are there, you select which branch of the Army you want to go to. Most cadets… there are a number of slots that are on this …. You have a big ceremony where everyone gets to pick their slot. It’s not only a branch, but it’s also a place. Our mentality at the academy was very much Cold War rather than Vietnam War. I selected a slot in Germany in a tank unit. I was armor. Some of the slots were in Vietnam.
Susan: Do you remember? The Cold War. Were you taught about it? How would you describe the Cold War to somebody now, a 19-year old?
Jay: It was worldwide struggle against communism even at that time. It had been going on for 20 years when I got there. In the whole 4 years, I had exactly 1 course that dealt with what was going on in Vietnam. So that might show you the emphasis at the academy. The emphasis was on creating an officer who is a technologist. He knows engineering; he knows mathematics. They teach us we can do anything. That’s kind of their mindset. They’re training us for a career, not for what’s happening right now. The Cold War, everyone pretty much expected it was gonna be around for our whole career. As it turned out, it was.
Susan: It is.
Jay: And may be still.
Susan: When you were getting out, you put in for Germany?
Jay: I selected armor and I selected a tank battalion in Germany, yes.
Susan: At that time, did you have a family?
Jay: I got married. At the time, everybody went to airborne and ranger school if they were combat armed. So, I went to airborne and ranger school. After those 2 schools, my wife and I got married. So, I was married when I went to Germany.
Susan: Were a lot of the army guys married?
Jay: Most of them.
Susan: So you were put you into family housing when you went over there? What was that like? Where were you in Germany?
Jay: I went to Bondholder in Germany. Germany, at the time, realized the Army did have an emphasis on Vietnam. So, most of the money and troops went to Vietnam. Because we had 500,000 troops there. The Army was about a million 3. So, Germany was understaffed. So, a tank platoon which was my first assignment. I was in charge of a tank platoon which has 5 tanks. I should’ve had 20 troops, but I never had more than 10. So, we were always about half strength.
Susan: What would you do? What would a day be like?
Jay: Let me circle back and answer your question about housing. Cuz this is where I was going with that commentary. Since it was very understrength, that meant the housing was under-utilized. So, we had a beautiful lieutenant colonel’s quarters as a brand-new second lieutenant. That’s pretty cool.
Susan: Oh wow! That worked to your favor.
Jay: That worked very well., yes. But a platoon leader of 5 tanks. 5 tanks take a lot of maintenance to keep them up and going. I mean they were old. We had M-60 tanks. So, by 1970, they were 10 years old. So, think about your car when it gets to be 10 years old.
Susan: You weren’t in an active combat zone. So you were more maintaining?
Jay: Well, the Russians were just over the Foley Gap. We were there just in case they came across. I mean the Cold War…we always plan as if the Russians were gonna come tomorrow. You have to get ready for them. So, we have a training cycle. And the other thing to realize is, it wasn’t a professional army. So, the people you were getting were all recruits. Tank gunnery is rather sophisticated art so it takes a while to train a gunner. As soon as you got them perfectly well trained, then they leave the service. Plus, you’re also at half strength. So, what would happen every year, you’d beef up the battalion, which is 3 platoons in a company and 3 platoons in a batallion. They would go to Graphendier to learn how to shoot the guns. You’d go at full strength. So, as soon as you came back, they would take all your people away from you because they had to train another battalion. So, it was sort of like musical chairs. You never had stability of crew at all.
Doug Tasse, U.S Marine Corps
Image Credit - Doug Tasse
Doug Tasse
Branch: U.S Marine Corps
Rank: Sergeant E5
Dates of Service: 1966 - 1970
Conflict: The Vietnam War
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Aviation Engineer
[man and woman talk - no background noise] Doug: After high school…at Young Harris College in north Georgia, it’s a 2 year college in the mountains. I was there for 2 years. After a 2 year program, I transferred to Georgia State College, later to become Georgia State University in downtown Atlanta as a junior. That was 1965 probably. At that time, the war in Vietnam was starting to build up. There was a lot going on. I remember there was a presidential election for Barry Goldwater and Hubert Humphrey. And Hubert Humphrey had come to Georgia State to talk. There were a lot of protests about the war at that time even.
Susan: Where were the protests?
Doug: The protests were there at the college where Humphrey was going to be speaking at the auditorium, city auditorium in downtown Atlanta which was adjacent to Georgia State. So, there were some protests there about the war. Well, my best friend from high school had actually enlisted in the Air Force after high school and he was serving in Vietnam from probably 64. And the summer of 65 he was killed flying with a supply mission in Vietnam where they crashed into a mountain. No one knows for sure what happened. It was sad time for me. It kind of shook my thoughts about being in college. Because the draft was going on at that time. There was some draft card burning and such that. The draft was getting pretty active. I didn’t have a big problem with it because I was in college, so I had a deferment. But I transferred to Georgia State from a small college. It was a whole new experience. Big school, I joined a fraternity. So, I did a lot of partying with the fraternity, so my studies really went down. And I decided to basically leave home. I was living at home. I didn’t like that after living in college for 2 years and living in dormitories. So, I just enlisted. I enlisted in the Marine Corps. After my friend being killed, I thought that was the fastest way to Vietnam. The fastest way to get into the action.
Susan: Was that motivation in honor of your friend or your patriotism at that time?
Doug: I felt it more as an anger toward my friend than as patriotism. Although I did have a strong patriotic vein at that time. I was pretty well in favor of Goldwater. I thought his thoughts were a lot more than Humphries. There was a pretty good divide starting back then in 65 which is I feel much much worse now than it was at that time. Also, of course, there was civil rights things were going on and such too. It was a turbulent time, indeed. But I just thought the Marine Corps was the place for me. I like the idea of smaller units. I like the idea of more direct control of your own destiny. I just thought that was the place for me. I was very independent. The recruiters said that was the place to be - very independent. And I thought it would be a good career move too.
Susan: So, when you enlisted, how much time did it take?
Doug: Basically, it was just a couple of weeks.
Susan: You left Georgia State?
Doug: Yes, I left Georgia State. That was the end of the quarter. I didn’t much care. Forget school. There wasn’t any need for me to stay in school at that time. Plus, I knew somewhere down the road, the G.I bill, you get out and you go back to school. So, that was in my mind. And when I enlisted, I did real well on my enlistment test. So, I got to choose what you like to go into. So, I thought, my friend was in aviation and Marine Corps aviation was pretty exciting. It is smaller units, not like the Air Force. Since I did well on my test, I was able to choose... I could go into aviation program. You could go into aviation or you could go into the infantry program. If you enlisted, you had pretty much had that choice. If you were drafted, there wasn’t much of a choice unless you did really well on your test, then you may have a choice. I don’t know. All I know is I was given that opportunity and the recruiter did not lie to me. So, I took a bus from Atlanta, after being indoctrinated at the old Sears building in downtown, which is now the Ponce City Market.
Susan: That was the recruiting station?
Doug: That was the recruiting station; that was the induction station. So you would go through your physical exam there. That’s where they picked out if you went into ‘eenie meenie miney moe’, if you went into the Marine Corps, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, or the Army. They would go down the line. If you’re draftee, you’re going to the Army, you’re going to the Navy, you’re going to the Marines, you’re going to the Army…Navy…Marines. You’re going to the Coast Guard. You’re going to the Air Force. I know a lot of guys that were drafted. They were on the bus with me. They weren’t real happy about going. I was actually pretty happy about going. I was much stronger then and good physical condition. So, I really wasn’t afraid at all.
Susan: So, the ones who didn’t want to go, what was the discussions? Did they speak up?
Doug: No. You really didn’t speak up a lot about it. That was kind of unusual. A lot of the guys that were there were really long hair, skinny, some overweight and such, short, tall, they were just all types. There was a real cross-section. Black, white, I don’t remember Chinese, or Asian. There weren’t many Asians around Atlanta at that time. But, of course, there were a lot of black. Wasn’t much thought given to it. You were pretty much put in a state of control of the people you knew. You knew why you were there, you knew that you were going into the service. The consequences of not going in at that point were not too good. The choice of either you go in or you go to jail or you’d be disgraced. I don’t think anyone wanted to be disgraced. Anyway, got to Parris Island. And I didn’t know it at that time, they had started a program where they would have a very rapid recruit program at Parris Island. The program normally had run about 14 weeks but they had widdled it down to just around a little over 6 weeks. It was so intense, the program was so intense that it was at least 3 weeks or maybe 4 weeks in before you even knew the name of the person in the bunk with you. You had 2-man bunks; one at the top and one at the bottom. You didn’t dare talk to anyone about anything. There was no off time. It was constant.
Susan: When did you start? What was a day like?
Doug: The day started at 5 a.m. and was, I think, done at 10 p.m. probably before lights out. Then, you’d have fire watch. If you did something wrong, you’d have to walk fire watch or something. It was a pretty intense time.
Larry Brannon, U.S Army
Image Credit - Larry Brannon
Larry Brannon
Branch: U.S Army
Rank: Major
Dates of Service: 1966 - 1975
Conflict: Vietnam War, The Cold War
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Aerial Observer, Battery Commander
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Family (juggling w/career), Reasons for Enlisting
[man and woman talk. Distant conversation in the background.]
Larry: During their time off. The military was very good at that.
Susan: Was 3 years the set time or did you determine that? Did you choose after 3 years to leave Germany or was that part of the.?
Larry: No. A standard accompanied tour was 36 months. That was the standard tour. So at the end of that, I received orders for Vietnam. So, I came back to the states. My wife went and we found an apartment in Lincoln, Nebraska. That’s where her father was living. And she and the kids went there and I went to Vietnam for a year with my artillery battalion.
Susan: What year was that?
Larry: That was July, 70 to July of 1971. 12 months. Which again was a standard tour. That was not something I chose. I did not volunteer to go to Vietnam. I could not see any percentage in that. And to me, you have to understand, that the Army for me was a job. Alright. It was a job. I didn’t go to Vietnam cuz I was some patriot or thought we were doing the right thing. Or protest because I thought we were doing the wrong thing. I didn’t have any feelings about that one way or the other. It was more, it was a job. It was like, well, if you are in Corporate America and you’re transferred from Minneapolis to Indianapolis, if you want the next level of promotion or the job you go. If you not, you get out. You quit. At that point, I was not ready to get out of the Army. So, I went.
Susan: What were your impressions? You’ve gone to Germany and come back and now you’re going to Vietnam? What were your impressions coming to that Asian country? Were you prepared for it?
Larry: Vietnam itself? Well, I knew a good bit about it and had received various training in it, particularly in what my job would potentially be. The country itself, when you first step off the airplane it was like, shoot, I’ve never been it a place that was so hot and humid. Of course, a third world country for the most part. I was stationed outside the large areas, like Saigon, those kinds of places. Beautiful country.
Susan: What kind of facilities were you in? What was your housing like?
Larry: Temporary military constructed wooden barracks. Standard. Metal roof. Built by civilian engineers, contract engineers. Same people that literally constructed the air base. My artillery battalion - we had a base camp and we had one, two, three firing batteries, the actually guns themselves deployed out throughout the countryside. It was okay living. I mean, I’ve lived a lot worse. Susan: How were you equipped? What did you carry? Did you have to carry a weapon at all times?
Larry: No, that…when you left that battalion area, the air base itself and traveled to any one of nearby towns by jeep or helicopters. Yay, you took your steel pot, and flak jacket, and your weapon with you. But day to day there on the base, you didn’t have that type of thing. Now, later, when I began flying as an aerial observer, I pretty much carried a weapon everyday and flak jacket and all that stuff. This was in 1970 – 71. Our part of the country, everything was kind of like in a holding pattern, you know. The Americans, we weren’t conducting any large-scale search and destroy, find the enemy, and destroy them and all that kind of operations. The North Vietnamese and the Viet Kong were doing a wait-and-see thing. They kinda saw what was happening. The politicians back in the states talking about withdrawal and all that.
Susan: How did you keep up with news? Were you getting official news? Did you have a radio?
Larry: Both. You got military newspapers. We got magazines and newspapers sent to us all the time by family and friends. Military mail service was very good. No television. Movies – there was a movie theatre on that base. So, you know, that type of thing. Armed forces radio. We knew about the Paris Peace Talks going on and all that. Nothing was censored. Nothing was censored. Again, it was a job and we went about doing our job.
Susan: Was there interaction with the local community?
Larry: Yes there was. It was rewarding. What I did; I had opportunity to accompany...We had a battalion surgeon, which was a doctor, and a battalion chaplain, which was a Catholic priest. Both of them did outreach to the local, different local little villages where the people were very poor. They didn’t have anything, least of all medical care and clothing. I would go with them, accompany them. We would take food to the kids, whatever we could – whatever the mess hall would let us have. Fruits, and vegetables, and whatever. And clothing – the chaplain would organize clothing donations. So, this stuff would get mailed to us and we’d carry that out to them. Medical care was a big thing. The doc was always giving shots, and examinations, and arranging for a dentist to come in.
Susan: I haven’t of that before.
Larry: It was part of what….what’s called…at that time…it was called winning the hearts and minds of the people. It was one of those things that could be done, that had the blessing of the command and we could do it easily enough. It was part of psychological operations; what they call Psy Ops, pacification. You know let’s get these guys on our side, type of thing. Show them we aren’t all bad; we aren’t just here to burn their huts down. That included, you had programs where we built facilities for the people, or gave them materials to build things. Supervised them building churches and schools and things . And that went on, and that happens in every situation like that. So, I still have lots of black and white photographs and colored slides of the kids and the people. You know, they were caught up in unfortunate situations. And again, that all kind of…also it was designed to show the soldier why we were there. We’re trying to bring democracy to these people. Well, it didn’t work.
Jim Bligh and fellow Marines. Jim is in photo at bottom left.
Image Credit - Jim Bligh
.Jim Bligh
Branch: U.S Marine Corps
Rank: 1st Lieutenant
Dates of Service: 1966 - 1970
Conflict: Vietnam War
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Platoon Commander
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Emotions (connections with others)
MS. CAOLO: We got pinned down by a either North Vietnamese or VC, Viet Cong, with a .50 caliber machine gun. He pinned us down for the whole -- it was probably from like 10:00 in the morning till it got dark around 6:00 at night. We couldn’t -- he kept us -- kept us pinned down. And that was a kind of awakening to me that this was for real because we had real bullets being shot at us. MS. CAOLO: Because you said you were -- you were moving an a -- a V formation -- MR. BLIGH: Yeah. And my CP was in the middle. And then we started taking fire up front. And he pinned us down the whole day. We couldn’t -- couldn’t move. He wounded a couple of the Marines. The corpsman got called up to -- to treat them. I remember being -- laying on the ground because I was afraid to even stand up because we didn’t know where he was. We -- we called in for -- for some helicopters to try to get rid of him, but they weren’t able to do it. And I will admit this, I -- maybe I shouldn’t on -- on camera, but I was so scared that I had to relieve myself, and I did it right there. MS. CAOLO: I don’t think anybody would blame you with that. MR. BLIGH: And, but, so, for the -- for the number of days we were out there, we -- we didn’t hit contact all the time, but we were always moving, always tightening it up. And, you know, we -- some of the -- some of the other companies took a lot more hits than me. I -- I was -- my -- my particular company, which was made up of about 30 to 40 Marines, because I had some weapons company assigned to my platoon, I lost -- I didn’t lose -- lose any Marines, but I had a couple -- couple that were wounded pretty badly. MS. CAOLO: What happens, then? Because you mentioned the corpsman. While you’re there in formation or you’re -- you’re trying to tighten up your ring, and then you have a wounded, how -- how does the corpsman -- how do you handle that? How -- MR. BLIGH: He -- MS. CAOLO: How -- how -- MR. BLIGH: -- he just -- MS. CAOLO: -- do you treat him? MR. BLIGH: -- got up and ran, you know. And I was very impressed with that. I mean, it was like one of the bravest things I -- MS. CAOLO: And then -- MR. BLIGH: -- because I was afraid -- MR. BLIGH: -- to do it myself. MS. CAOLO: And then they keep them with your or how -- where -- what happens to the wounded? MR. BLIGH: Yeah. They -- they -- we get them back. And when -- when we finally got out of, you know, being pinned down, a helicopter, medevac came in and took them to the -- to the hospital -- MS. CAOLO: Well, you mentioned -- MR. BLIGH: -- back to DaNang. MS. CAOLO: -- about being so scared when you were pinned down. Were you aware of your -- of your other fellow Marines? I mean, everyone must have been feeling -- MR. BLIGH: Yeah. They -- they probably were all as scared as I was because they -- they were afraid to get up too. I mean, if you ever see the size of a .50 caliber round, it’s pretty big. You know, it’s not like a little bullet like this, it’s -- it’s maybe about this big, and it can hurt you pretty bad. So -- MS. CAOLO: Scary. MR. BLIGH: That was -- you know, the -- the last day of our opera -- each day we’d tighten everything up. And, you know, these -- these guys were all down in bunkers, and we’d have to send Marines down to clear them out or throw grenades down. And I remember the last day of the operation, I was told that my platoon was going to lead that final charge, and I was -- the night before, I was like saying, Oh, man, this could be it. This could be, you know -- and we ended up moving out in the morning, as soon as -- as soon as light, and they were all gone. The VC had all either vanished or left or whatever was left of them, because we were getting air strikes coming in on top of their -- their bunker complexes, you know. We had to move back. So -- as a matter of fact, some companies were up so close, then even took some -- some napalm. They were dropping napalm on them and everything. But, it was a successful operation, you know, and you consider what we lost versus the -- the North Vietnamese. So -- but, anyway, it -- it -- that was my initiation under -- under fire. So, after that -- MS. CAOLO: (Inaudible), and -- MR. BLIGH: -- after -- after that, you know, coming out of there, you know, with no scratches on me, and primarily my -- my platoon, I didn’t lose anybody, I -- I got cocky. I got, you know, Oh, man, this -- you know, I can do this. I can survive my 13-month tour. And, little did I know that the -- the next operation would be a whole different story. And -- MS. CAOLO: So, there was a lot of ups, emotionally, when you went from being so -- must have been you were scared, I mean, going into, you said reality hit. But then, when it was done, you realized you were -- you and your platoon were okay, that feels like a relief, and then kind of a sense of empowerment? Or you felt -- MR. BLIGH: Yeah. MR. BLIGH: Yeah. MS. CAOLO: -- like you were -- MR. BLIGH: Like, you know, nothing’s going to -- MS. CAOLO: -- kind of -- MR. BLIGH: -- I -- I can -- MS. CAOLO: -- fearless? MR. BLIGH: -- I can survive this. Yeah. As a matter of fact, one of the -- on -- on that same operation, one of the sergeants from my company who was part of our battalion was awarded the Medal of Honor for -- MS. CAOLO: (Inaudible). MR. BLIGH: -- bravery. He was awarded it post-humorously [sic] because he was wounded on -- wounded and killed in what he did that day. So, I didn’t know him personally, but, you know, I heard -- found out later on that -- that he was given it. They -- you know -- MS. CAOLO: So, (inaudible) -- MR. BLIGH: -- you know, you’ll find out later on. You found out -- like two years later I was already out of the service when I found out. MS. CAOLO: How was communication? Like, when the -- MR. BLIGH: (Inaudible) -- MS. CAOLO: -- the battle’s going on or when -- MR. BLIGH: Yeah. It’s -- MS. CAOLO: -- in the heat of it -- MR. BLIGH: Yeah. You have a radioman. That’s what I had. And we would talk on that. And I was -- I was in contact with the Company Commander. I mean, he’s telling me what’s going on. How come you can’t move? I said, We’re pinned down, you know. So, he said, Okay. Hang in there. He tried to get some choppers in to -- to help. It was funny. It was one guy that pinned us down for a whole day. But -- MS. CAOLO: Did they ever get him? MR. BLIGH: No. He disappeared as soon as it got dark, and then we were able to get out of there and move out the next day. But, that was my -- MS. CAOLO: (Inaudible). MR. BLIGH: -- initiation into combat. And we -- we got -- we finished that operation. We got back -- now, you’ve to understand, we’re out in the field for -- from -- MS. CAOLO: And wasn’t the monsoon season -- MR. BLIGH: No. MS. CAOLO: -- starting or -- MR. BLIGH: No. MS. CAOLO: -- or had it not started? MR. BLIGH: It wasn’t -- you know, we’d have rainy weather but no monsoon-type deal, but -- at that time of the year. We -- we were out in the field from November 10th to the 15th of December. And, basically, the only way you can take care -- clean yourself is, you know, washing up in a stream or something that you found. There was no baths or showers or anything. You -- you lived in the -- basically the same uniform, your utilities that you had. So, we -- when we got back and everybody -- we -- we all smelled the same, so it didn’t sound too bad. But when we got back and -- I remember when we got back to the Rock Crusher, they had like a barbecue for us. They were making steaks and chicken and, you know, we could take a shower and get new utilities issued. MS. CAOLO: When you were -- when you were out there, how did -- what did you eat? Did you get -- MR. BLIGH: Oh, they had can -- MS. CAOLO: -- rations only or -- MR. BLIGH: Yeah. They -- they had -- the called the C-rats. They were little cans of food and you could heat them up. A lot of them used these C-tabs to heat up your food. And, you know, people would trade off because there were good stuff and bad. They had spaghetti and meatballs. You had turkey loaf. You had -- MS. CAOLO: What was the mood -- when you do come back, you said they had barbecue and all -- MR. BLIGH: Yeah. MR. BLIGH: Everybody -- MR. BLIGH: -- went crazy. MR. BLIGH: Every -- everybody was grabbing steaks and just, you know, caveman style, you know. And, anyway, a couple of days later we got assigned to a hill outside of DaNang. Each company, each platoon in Kilo Company got a different hill. So, we were up on these hills for Christmas. And I remember Christmas Eve, and it was a ceasefire then that -- you know, they’d always negotiate around the holiday a ceasefire with the Vet -- with the Viet Cong and VC. And, so, I remember on that Christmas Eve we had these pop-up flares that would be used to signify if you were in a hot zone or, you know, not too hot so you could get a helicopter in. And they were different colors like red and green and white. And we all started popping them like just before Christmas Day, and you could see the hills lighting up. It was -- it was -- MS. CAOLO: So, that was how you celebrated -- MR. BLIGH: -- pretty neat. MS. CAOL0: -- Christmas? MR. BLIGH: That’s how we celebrated Christmas. And the next day they flew in some hot chow for us, but it was pretty cool. MS. CAOLO: Could you communicate with family during this time? MR. BLIGH: Just letters. I remember, it was funny, getting a letter from -- I was sitting on the hill, and it was from UPS, and they sent me a -- a bonus check of $100. How do you cash this in Vietnam, you know, $100 check?
Ralph Roeger, U.S Marine Corps
Image Credit - Ralph Roeger
Ralph Roeger
Branch: U.S Marine Corps
Rank: Staff Sergeant
Dates of Service: 1977 - 1997
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Construction Engineer Instructor
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Emotions (connections with others)
[interview occurs indoors with lots of background noise and talking. At one point a car alarm goes off nearby.]
Susan: Okay, I’m going to begin. Today is Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018, if you can believe that. My name is Susan Caolo and I’m here with the Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park part of the National Park Service. And I’m working in conjunction with the Library of Congress on the Veteran’s History Project. And today I’m interviewing Ralph Roeter.
Ralph: Roeger.
Susan: Roeger. I’m interviewing here at the Semper Fei Bar and Grill in Woodstock, Georgia, which he is the owner. I’m going to have him introduce himself. Give your name, rank, and date of birth, and then begin give an idea of how you began and how you chose to go into the branch of service you went into.
Ralph: My name is Ralph Roeger. I’m a retired Master Sergeant which is a E-8 in the Marine Corps. I was born Christmas Day in 1958. I joined the Marine Corps in January of 1977 that’s when I enlisted and was put on a 9 month delayed entry program. Shipped out to recruit training in San Diego, California, on September 15, 1977. Went to recruit training for 13 weeks. Once that was over, I was sent to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina for basic combat engineering training which was another 11 weeks, if I remember right. Came out second in class so I got promoted to Lance Corporal. Then they kept me there at the school to become an instructor upon graduation.
Susan: First, I want to go back. What made you choose the Marines?
Ralph: I wanted to be the best, so I joined the Marines.
Susan: Was anyone in your family in the Marines?
Ralph: No, both my parents were born and raised in Germany. Lived through WWII as teenagers. That was one of the reasons I joined the military. If there was ever a war in this country, now I can do something to help protect them.
Susan: When did they come to the states? They were both German.
Ralph: Yes. I think they came here in 1953 – 54, something like that.
Susan: Okay.
Ralph: I ended up enlisting with a buddy of mine from high school. We went in on the buddy program. We went through recruit training together. Susan: Jumping back to … You said they kept you back to be an instructor. Was that testing? Or how did that work? Is that something you initiated?
Ralph: No. They…upon graduation, because I came out second highest in the class, I got my choice of where I wanted to go. So, I chose another location. But then after recruit training, I was on recruiter assistance for 30 days. Well, come to find out, Camp Lejeune paid for that recruiter assistance. So, they said since they paid for it, you’re staying here at Camp Lejeune. So, turned out, instead of having a choice, I didn’t have a choice. They said you’re staying right there at the Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune at the Engineers Corps. So, I was an assistant instructor for the first year. Then they put me on what’s called the platform, which means teaching other students right out of boot camp. Then that progressed to students that had been in for a few years that were now corporals or sergeants coming in for an advanced course.
Susan: So, were you younger than some of those?
Ralph: Oh, yeah. I was only 19. As a 19- and 20-year old, I was teaching Marines that had been in the Marine Corps for, at that point, 15 to 20 years. There was another advanced course when you become a staff sergeant gunney that you go back to school for advanced training and I was teaching them the advanced training.
Susan: Was this something you saw yourself doing beforehand?
Ralph: No, I just kind of picked it up. I mean I never had a problem talking with people. So, getting up on a platform in front of people teaching wasn’t a problem for me, it wasn’t hard to do. As long as I knew the subject; as long as you know the subject and you believed in the subject, it’s easy to talk about.
Susan: Sounds like you were a pretty mature 18/19-year old. It sounds a little bit different than people going into the military.
Ralph: Yes. Then, it progressed to teaching officers right out of Officer Candidate School that became engineer officers. They have to come to our school first to learn. They learned how to be an officer; but now they learn how to be an engineer officer.
Susan: I’m just trying to imagine you doing that as a 19-year old, doing the training. So, you’re getting training while you’re giving it.
Ralph: I was always studying. I was always trying to brush up more on what I was required to teach because you can’t teach it if you don’t know it. At the same time, the more I taught it, the more I learned about it. If something came up and a student had a question I couldn’t answer, I could go to someone else for that answer. Then I learned for next time I taught the class.
Susan: So, you went to high school. You didn’t want to go to college?
Ralph: Yes, graduated high school in 1977. No, I had no interest in furthering my education.
Susan: Which you ended up doing. [chuckles] How long did you stay in North Carolina?
Ralph: The first time? From January 78 is when I got there and I left there in June of 1980 and went to Okinawa, Japan for a year. I was with a construction platoon and a bridge platoon over there. Did that for a year. When I got my orders back to the states, it was right back to the engineering school. Turned out the commander of the school was calling headquarters of the Marine Corps requesting me to come back. They said when you have a full bird Colonel requesting your presence back, you’re going. I said, great, I loved it, send me right back over. So, I stayed there until November of 85. Then, November of 85 I got orders to recruiting duty in Wisconsin.
Susan: Going back to when you were going to Japan. Did you go with people you knew? Or was this throwing you into something new?
Ralph: When you get orders, you get on a plane with a bunch of other Marines and off you go.
Susan: Was that a good experience? Was it all work?
Ralph: Yay, it was fine. It was going to another duty station. So, different duty station. It was all work. You got your time off, you got your weekends. your holidays to do whatever you wanted to do. I did a lot of snorkeling over there, sight-seeing, checking out the island, that kind of stuff.
Susan: So you did get time for that. Then they brought you back because they had that request. Who was it who requested you back, do you remember the person?
Ralph: Colonel Dickson. First it was Lieutenant Colonel Butler who was the executive officer of the school. Following week, I called Headquarters Marine Corps back up to confirm where I was gonna be going. They said yes, now you’ve got the commanding officer calling up here, Colonel Dickson, so you’re going. I said, okay, send me.
Susan: So, you were now doing officer training?
Ralph: I was doing all levels of educating these Marines before going to Okinawa. So, I was 19, 20, and 21 I was doing all the teaching.
Susan: Do you.. this is a question after talking to other people who said their teachers seeing things in them. How did you do that?
Ralph: I didn’t because students would come through our section. I was in the construction section. I was teaching all phases of construction. They’d come to our section, I’d give them the information, and they’d move onto the next section. There’s no…okay this student looks like he’d could potentially be good …there was none of that going on.
Susan: So, these people had already made it through boot camp. They were in.
Ralph: Yay, they had gone through boot camp and now were learning how to be a combat engineer. From the school they’d go on to wherever their duty station was. Then, when I came back from Okinawa, instead of going back to the carpenter shop I went out to the demolition range. I started teaching demolitions and land mine warfare.
Susan: In the same place? In North Carolina?
Ralph: Same place. Same school. Back to the engineering school again.
Susan: Tell us about, everyone tells us about Camp Lejeune, but they go for a short period of time. But that’s where you’re working. What all goes on?
Ralph: It’s Marine Corps largest amphibious base. A lot of amphibious training there. It’s right on the coast. But it’s a, just a military base. Part of it’s designed as a school to teach. Other units are in support of another unit, like infantry units can be assigned to another unit when a war breaks out. For example, in 1983, during the Beirut bombing, Camp Lejeune became a ghost town. Just about everyone on the base got deployed. Everyone went overseas, except for those that were in what’s called base units, in other words, training units, like I was. I was at engineer school, so we were not deployable. We could not go. But the whole rest of Camp Lejeune emptied out.
Susan: What was your housing? Did you live on base? What was that like?
Ralph: Part of the time. Barracks, 2 and 3-man rooms. For awhile I was living in the town. I did a little bit of both.
Susan: Did you travel? Where was your family base? Did you have siblings?
Ralph: Out of Wisconsin. So, I’d go home every once in a while. A brother? I have one brother and one sister. Neither one of them were in the military.
Susan: Did you ever get homesick? Ralph: Not really; too busy. Plus, it was nice and warm in North Carolina. Wisconsin is too cold.
Susan: I hear you there. [chuckles]
Robin Robinson, U.S Navy
Image Credit - Robin Robinson
Robin Robinson
Branch: U.S Navy
Rank: Chief Petty Officer
Dates of Service: 1983 - 2005
Conflict: Desert Shield
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Culinary Specialist
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Reasons for Enlisting, Equality (Womens Roles/changes from then to now)
Robin: Then I had to report to the ship in October and I reported. And the ship was a mess.
Susan: In what way?
Robin: Under-manned. They had like one spatula for the whole galley. So only one person could cook eggs, one person could flip burgers. It was disgraceful.
Susan: You left shore that way? Ill-equipped?
Robin: I left shore duty to go to sea, yeah. When I got to the ship it was ill-equipped. One spatula. It was awful. I don’t know what happened, but it was just a mess. I found out maybe a few months later, maybe more than that, we had gotten back from med cruise, and we’d gotten underway for the med cruise just before Thanksgiving.
Susan: Tell me, describe the med cruise.
Robin: Long hours -16 to 18 hour days. You get there at 5 o’clock in the morning and sometimes you don’t go to bed til like midnight.
Susan: For how many days in a row is it like that?
Robin: For as long as we’re out to sea. And we stayed out to sea until Thanksgiving Day, we went out to Coms, France. Then Halle Berry came on board and she served dinner.
Susan: Halle Berry?
Robin: Halle Berry, yeah. She was putting food on everybody’s tray. This was back when she had dreadlocks in her hair. It was right after…
Susan: Halle Berry with dreadlocks?
Robin: Yeah, she had dreadlocks then. She was just in a movie; I can’t remember, was it…
Susan: Late 90s
Robin: Yeah, what was the name of the movie? I want to say, Jungle Fever. No it wasn’t Jungle Fever. I can’t remember. But she was in Coms, France, promoting her movie. It was such a mess. Right before she got there, we had a huge pallet with potatoes. There was another cook, first class also named Riley. He was like, we were trying to get the place cleaned up. The place was infested with roaches; it was so disgusting. We took out all the potatoes, picked out all the rotten ones, we lift up the pallet and he goes, ugh. I swept all the roaches off the floor, put them in the garbage can, tied up the bag, wiped up the floor. We took all the good potatoes and stacked them up nicely. Oh my God, that was so disgusting. We were all standing around her and I was making sure there was no roaches crawling up the wall, nothing like that.
Susan: Did you get pictures?
Robin: Oh yeah, I still have the pictures! I’ll bring ‘em in. I got a bunch of pictures of her.
Susan: That’s a good story.
Robin: It was so…geez…it was a madhouse.
Susan: Stressful?
Robin: Yes, stressful! I just remember, I’m so glad she was finally gone. [laughing] Oh it was so crazy. As soon as she left, boom, everybody was gone. Everybody went on liberty. Everybody left the ship. There was nobody there but the duty section. After all that. They made people stay. It was horrible. She finally left, so that’s when people could finally go on liberty.
Susan: That’s a cool story.
Robin: Yeah, but oh God.
Susan: You didn’t get to Chief Petty Officer. What did you do? Did you take exams?
Robin: Matter of fact, when I left Jacksonville, I stayed there an extra week so I could take the test there. I took the First Class Petty Officer Test. And I studied that whole week, I stayed in somebody’s barrack’s home, illegally. But their roommate was never there. “You can stay there, she’s never there.” So, I stayed there and studied that whole week. Then I took the test that Friday. I went in that morning. We had to be there at 7 o’clock. I took the test, turned my test in, I got my car, and drove to Virginia. And when I got to the plat at about….that was in December.
Susan: So, you went from the Roosevelt back to the plat?
Robin: No, you asked me about the test. I did the test when I was at Jacksonville. That was…so when I got to the plat, a couple months later that’s when I found out I passed the test, and I was able put my new rank on.
Susan: How did you feel about that?
Robin: Ooh, great! It was the first time I took it too.
Susan: Yeah, that’s what I’m were saying. I know about those tests. You had said you worked and went to college before.
Robin: No, but I only studied for my job, I was always on my job. They asked you questions on the test like bread making, how to put an ice cream machine together. You had to know the different parts, like the dasher and all that. They asked you about hand sanitizer. Sanitizing a coffee machine or an ice cream machine. How often should you sweep during the day? Questions like that, you had to know. I always stay on top of my food service stuff, so, I didn’t take any college courses. Actually, a matter of fact, when I was on the Roosevelt. That’s when I signed up for college courses, when I was leaving. So, and that was school itself. You had to stay up on sanitation updates, and they always changed. How often the floor should be swept? How often the floor should be washed? Before it was like, back in the day, it was at the end of the day. Then, it went from at the end of the day to after each meal. So, you had to know whenever they updated the information, your test was gonna change. I made it first time. You have to know other things, outside. The different flags…there’s a flag when the CO is not on board. There’s a flag when he is there. There’s a flag that’s put up, raised, when you’re in port and there’s an admiral on board. So, you had to know all that stuff. That’s another thing you had to know. That’s another thing that helped me on the test, was firearm. [illegible whispering] They had firearms on there…Engineering Stuff…Basic seamanship.
Susan: Did other women…did everyone have an opportunity to take a test?
Robin: Yeah, everyone had an opportunity to take a test. You knew when you was up for the next test. You had to go to personnel, make sure you’re on the list, make sure they ordered your test. That was your responsibility because your supervisor didn’t do it. You had to be there on time, had to bring your #2 pencil. [pencil drops] When I made it the first time, when I made First Class the first time, that was really, really exciting. I had less than 6 years in. At that time, there was only 2 of us that made First Class while I was on the plat. It was me and another African American male. His name was Ray. As a matter of fact, we’re still friends today. We made First Class together. We had our ceremony; it was just the 2 of us. That was on the plat, yeah.
Derek Easterling, U.S Navy
Image Credit - Derek Easterling
Derek Easterling
Branch: U.S Navy
Rank: Lieutenant
Dates of Service: 1980 - 1996
Conflict: Operation Desert Storm, Operation Desert Shield
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Submariner
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Emotions (connections with others), Reasons for enlisting, Advice for future generations
(Male and female talk in a quiet indoor setting.) Derek: My first fire on the submarine, the first fire we had, the baker was making me a cake for my birthday. There was too much of an up-bubble. The batter spilled out. I like to joke about that.
Susan: How long would you be out at a time?
Derek: We were fast attack. We’re not on a 90 days out, 90 days back. When we went out, we went out. I’ve had operations where we were out for over 120 days. I loved it. But, you know. One year on the Memphis. I think we were deployed 217 days. I may be wrong about that. I just remember that. When we hit over 200 days that we were out, it was great for one deployment. We had the work up times and all of that. It really doesn’t bother me. That’s what you’re there to do. Sailors like being home, that way they can start bitching and complaining about the next one.
Susan: Did you surface, when you went out would you come back to the same state?
Derek: Yes. We went to a med deployment. You had to transit over. You’d pull into Naples, or it used to be La Maddalena. You’d pull in for repairs or supplies. But, yeah, you didn’t typically. You had a couple liberty parts, but not me. You’re limited too.
Susan: Did you surface out in the ocean?
Derek: No, you don’t want to be detected. I like that. I like that mystery.
Susan: Yeah, like you said, hundred people in a tube.
Derek: You either got along or you didn’t. You learned how to; you’re faced with your biggest challenges of getting along. We didn’t talk about diversity, we didn’t talk about any of that because we were all sailors. You either were or you weren’t and we all were.
Susan: Did they have women in there?
Derek: No. They had women in the service, but not on the submarines.
Susan: So, is that where you stayed?
Derek: No. After that tour, I went to D.C then back to Norfolk, then back to another submarine. I worked for NATO. I worked for Commander in Chief of U.S Atlanta Command; US. Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic for 3 years. Admiral Lee Baggett, Jr. was the Commander of Chief. One of the greatest men I’ve ever met in my life. I spent 40 years…39.5 years in the Navy. I started out at the University of Mississippi, Oxford. Then, ended up in the Naval Academy. Just a very steady, very methodical, and you know, he had a great mind…a great mind. He could do anything. As far I was considered, he could do anything. And he shared with me a lot of his experiences as a leader just by observing. He shared that with me. I was with him everyday. I was with him everyday for 3 years and 5 days. I was the first one in the office and I was the last one to leave. He used to tell people. He’d say..people asked him, “Admiral, how long do you work?” He said, “Oh, we work half days here.” His half days were 7 to 7. He came in at 7 and he went home at 7. But I got there at 5 and I went home at 7:45. It took me 45 minutes to leave after he left. I was there everyday, including Saturday. And Sundays, I went to his house. And I, you know, that made a difference to me, excepting me. I was a young chief at the time. I tried to fill other billets, but I was hungry, I was hungry for knowledge. I was hungry for ‘how do you do this?’, ‘how do you do that?’. I learned a lot about our NATO allies, about the NATO nations. I learned a lot about planning, operational planning, manpower, personnel, there was so much.
Susan: Where would you living then? Did you start a family there?
Derek: Norfolk, Virginia. No, I was married. Never had children. Navy was everything to me. You heard me say it earlier in the interview; short term sacrifice, long term gain. My goal was always to whatever I did was to fulfill the future. I’d sacrifice just about anything to achieve the long-term goal. That’s what I was trying to focus on. And yeah, it cost me a family. I look and see. I had to live through those experiences to know.
Susan: And your family stayed in touch? Did you get homesick for your parents?
Derek: Yeah, pretty much. (hesitates) No, because I always believed in my heart. I’m pretty well connected with my mom and dad. I can work with my dad to this day. I can be in the same place as my dad, on my feet working, and I don’t have to say anything to him but I know he’s there. And he didn’t say anything to me. He’ll just look over and nod. I know that. But, no, then, I knew that if I was thinking about them, I always saw my dad in his uniform; white shirt, and ball cap, in his booth, doing what he knows how to do. I always saw my mom flittering around, trying to get someone to do something for her. So, no, I had those memories. I had what I believed about my parents. I never got homesick. I don’t know if that’s good or bad.
Susan: Actually, it would make a parent happy.
Derek: Yeah, I was supposed to take care of myself and I learned how to take care of myself.
Susan: You got out in 96. Was that something planned? Is that something that was planned? Can you tell us about that?
Derek: No, it was totally unplanned. Yeah. After I left (incoherent). (cough) I went to another submarine. I went to the Minneapolis, St. Paul. And I thought the Memphis and the other submarines…the Memphis I was assigned to and the other submarines I had just ridden to help them during certain operations. I got to Minneapolis, St. Paul; I was a chief. I had a lot of influence over the younger sailors. So, when I went back aboard, I saw me again when I was younger. I started sharing that knowledge. I started the nurture part; trying to help people discover who they are. I saw those young kids and knew that they needed that. But I didn’t realize what was happening. I was teaching and I was trying to help. I also knew ship systems well. I was Chief of the Watch and a Diving Officer. I loved it. It was newer submarine, she was beautiful. I felt right at home. For the first time, I had friends that I served with. I mean going into it, I had some genuine friends. After 2 years, we came back in off of deployment and in one of the mail bags…kid come running in and said, “Here, here!” And I found out I’d been selected for the limited duty officer program and I was going to be commissioned. I thought, wow. So, I called and they said, “We were getting ready to cancel cuz you hadn’t responded.” And I said, “Well, I was deployed.” (Susan laughs) “Come on, I do go to sea. I want it. I’ll take it, I’ll take it.”
Terri (Westphall) Greene, U.S Army
Image Credit - Susan Caolo
Terri (Westphall) Greene
Branch: U.S Army
Rank: E4
Dates of Service: 1984-1987
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Combat Nurse
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Emotions (connections to others), Equality (womens roles in the military/then and now), Family (juggling w/ career)
[2 females talk indoors with light chatter in the background.] Susan: Today is Tuesday, December 26th and my name is Susan Caolo. I’m with the Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park and we’re working on this Veteran’s History Project. And today I will be interviewing Terri Greene who is with the U.S Army. And we’re conducting this interview in Dallas…Marietta, Georgia. Sorry, not Dallas. Marietta, Georgia. And so, I’m gonna begin and let you give your date of birth, where you were born and rank, service, and first thing I’m gonna be asking you is where were you and what were you doing when you decided to get into the army.
Terri: [laughs] Ok. My name is Terri Greene now, but when I was in the service it was Terri Westphall. I was born in Appleton, Wisconsin back in 1965. Let’s see, I was in the army, my rank was E-4 which is actually what they call a specialist. I actually went in as a private third class and got promoted 6 months later. I didn’t want to go any higher cuz I knew I wasn’t going to make it a career [laughs] after awhile.
Susan: Where were you before you got into this? Why did you join?
Terri: I graduated from high school and went to a technical school to do LPN. About 6 months into that I had a biology class, which was not my favorite. My mom was on my case about some stuff while I was still living at home. So, I thought, hmm I could join the army and get away from my mother [laughs]. Which is kind of ironic cuz now she wishes all of her daughters would’ve done the same thing.
Susan: Was there a recruiter near you? Did anyone approach you?
Terri: My boyfriend was actually thinking of joining. So, when he met with a recruiter and I was with him that day. We just started talking and I thought well, this sounds really interesting. I went ahead and took the test.
Susan: Did you not have to have parental permission?
Terri: No, cuz I was over 18. Yeah, I had turned 18 like 8 months before this. I took the test and went home to my mom and dad and said, “I’m joining the army.” [laughs] My mom said, “No you’re not!” I said, “Yes I am.” She took me down to the recruiter station and said she’s crazy, doesn’t know what she’s doing, she doesn’t want to join the army. And he looked at her said, “Ma’am, she passed that test with such a high score that she can have any job she wants.”
[break in recording]
Susan: Terri talks about having a baby while she is in the military. Susan: That’s good that you got to use your benefits for that.
Terri: Yeah. And everybody was really nice. The sergeant that was pretty much over our area; they always do a pool. Is it going to be a boy? What day is it going to be born? And nobody won the pool. They just took all of the money and went and bought diapers and formula and food.
Susan: Awww, that’s really great. How did you feel about that? Was it expected?
Terri: Yeah. I wasn’t expecting it, I really wasn’t. They knocked on my door and I was like, “Whoa, okay?” When you’re pregnant or expecting a family, you either live on base but not in the barracks or you move off base. It was just easier to move off base. It was a long waiting list. That’s a bad thing. There’s such a long waiting list for houses on a military base. You have to qualify. You shouldn’t have to do that.
Susan: Really? Did you have to find your own housing?
Terri: Yeah. I found an apartment. I knew some people in town.
Susan: Where was this?
Terri: This was up in Fort Devons in Massachusetts. It was just a little teeny town right off the base.
Susan: Did you have like a person to go to…who did you go to for advice…what’s your maternity leave? What’s your benefits?
Terri: I actually went to…when I found all this out, I working in an outpatient clinic at the hospital. So, I just went through the sergeant that was in charge of that. He got me in touch with who it was I needed to talk to. And actually I think it ended up being colonel who ran the hospital. Everyone was really supportive though. I could bring him to work. I worked in a hospital, so they just take him up to the nursery. [laughs] I was like, “okay!” So, I enjoyed it. I seriously think, it may sound mean, but the way kids are and the society is nowadays. I seriously think when a child gets out of high school, they need to go through basic training. That needs to be required, that they do basic training in one of the armed services. And if they don’t want to stay in, they don’t stay in. But it totally changed me. I had low self-esteem when I was in high school and junior high. I just, you know, depression and all that kind of stuff and it was just like okay, I’m going in. I come out, I still don’t have great self-esteem but it’s better. I’m more of a team player than I was. I’m not as much of a loner. So, it changed me.
Susan: Why do you think it worked more when you went into the military than when you were in school with your teachers? Terri: I don’t know. It was different. It’s weird. It’s…I guess because you work so closely with everybody. When you were going to basic training, you’re told specifically, “This is what we’re doing and this is the person you have to rely on.” We’re sleeping with guns next to each other. [laughs] So if I feel you move, I’m pulling out my gun.
Susan: Is that how you did?
Terri: Pretty much. They would come around and try to steal your gun at night. And if the drill sergeant could steal your gun, you were doing some KP or whatever you had to do for a punishment.
Susan: You were sleeping?
Terri: Yeah. We were sleeping but we had to have the gun strapped around our leg somehow or another because if an enemy came and tried to steal your gun…yeah…it was, okay. I had this one girl next to me. She’s like, “Okay, I’ll put my gun on this side and you put your gun on that side. That way our guns are in between us.” I said, “That works.” [laughs] We had to do a lot of stuff where you had to team up with somebody. And in school, you didn’t have that. You might cheat off somebody’s paper, but …[laughs].
Susan: That’s a little different. [laughs] No, it sounds like your lifes depended on it.
Terri: Yeah. My life depends on everybody around me. And in school…
Susan: Did you feel like that idea, your life depends on the people around you, was what was different?
Terri: Yeah. That’s definitely different.
Susan: So, you learned to be a team player.
Terri: Mm-hmm. And you’ve gotta…what’s the word I’m looking for?
Janie Brier, U.S Navy
Image Credit - Janie Brier
Janie Brier
Branch: U.S Navy
Rank: Captain
Dates of Service: 1987 - 2015..
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Nurse
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Equality (womens role in the military/ then and now), Reasons for enlisting, Advice for future generations
[2 females talk indoors in a quiet setting.] Susan: Rank. Did rank come into the hospital?
Janie: Yes. That’s a peculiar circumstance because you could have, let’s say in the operating room and your circulating nurse could be a lieutenant commander or a commander, that’s an O-4 or an O-5. The doctor may only be a lieutenant. The doctor’s in charge. He’s the one whose giving medical care on the patient. So, you’re getting the things he wants; you’re following his direction. But he must treat you with the respect of a senior rank. So, that was quite different. I found that really we all have the same goals; we all speak the same technical language. So, there really wasn’t any difference in how I practiced in the operating room. I remember as an ensign. That’s the lowest class that you have, that’s an O-1. Going to my…the nursing supervisor and saying, “Hey, this is what happened in my room with the anesthesiologist and this is what happened with the baby. And I have a problem with this.” And then she would turn and talk to the head of anesthesiology and they’d come talk to me. Then, they’d go take action. My experience was…I was a very experienced nurse. So, my clinical expertise was respected. It didn’t matter that I was an ensign. “Oh she’s just an ensign, she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.” Well, no that wasn’t it at all. I may be an ensign, but I have a lot of experience as an OR nurse and clinically very skilled so they paid attention to that.
Susan: Did you feel a difference sense of value when you were in the military than when you were for example in Saudi Arabia working in the hospital? As far as being valued, you said you were very experienced?
Janie: Um, let me just say in the Saudi hospital, I was very respected for being there. Even the Saudis who controlled the hospital were….treated me with great respect and they were very glad I was there. Now, culturally as a woman, I would’ve felt less valued there. But because of what I did for them and my role in the hospital there, I was treated with great respect. So, I didn’t feel less value there than I did in the military. I think that’s an unusual situation. I think that if I had to compare how I was treated in a civilian hospital vice a military hospital, I’d have to say I had a lot more professional freedom in a military hospital than I did in a civilian hospital. I think my contributions were more respected.
Susan: Did you feel you flourished? How do you feel yourself as far as development in the military? Did you feel challenged? If that’s the word I’m thinking of. Was there any different sense of duty or fulfillment?
Janie: Oh, yeah. I was in professional heaven in the military because they valued my skill. And the military, because they are engaged in operations other than war, as well as war but they’re engaged in peacetime operations, too, there was the opportunity for me to get specialized training that never would have been available to me on the civilian side at that time. Things like tactical combat, causality care, expeditionary medicine, working in a joint medicine environment with other services who provide services to a patient that your branch of service doesn’t. For example, if you’re in operations other than war, and people are being evacuated, they’re gonna be medevac’ed out on helicopters that probably belong to the army. The army and the air force are probably going to have all the air transport and they’re also going to have a lot of the ambulances. So how that’s coordinated, that’s just very, very different and you get that kind of training. As well as, advanced trauma, life support…basic trauma, life support, advanced trauma, advanced burn support…life support for burn victims. All of that was training I just wouldn’t normally have been afforded in a civilian setting. If I was working in an operating room, I wouldn’t have gotten those things, those kinds of training. But in the military, you always have a mobilization platform. So, you train to that because you ultimately could be deployed.
Susan: So, you were in the nursing program, the medical field. Would there not be other things you would recommend to other women or anybody in nursing about the opportunities to go into the military? In other words, is that an area you think more people should explore since you said, looking back, that wasn’t an area you had considered?
Janie: I would say don’t be afraid to explore that. Things that you think you can’t tolerate or you wouldn’t be good at or that you limit yourself when you’re younger, as you gain that experience in life and that professional experience, you realize hey, I can do that. You say why did I put myself in this box? And I think many people getting out of a program don’t think about the military because one they don’t have perhaps that self-confidence, or they don’t have the professional experience yet that let’s them know they can flourish in that environment. Some people are definitely not cut out to be on active duty or even in the reserves. Anytime that they’re going to come on active duty, they just don’t have a mindset or a personality that makes them a good fit. They aren’t going to benefit, and neither is the service. But there are more people who would benefit from that and find it a rewarding and an enriching experience.
Susan: It sounds exciting. Your combat…the way you describe it.
Janie: Well, I’ve never been in combat.
Susan: That’s what I’m saying. You still got to go through the training. If there were an occasion that you needed to, I’d rather be trained and equipped. Like you said, you might never have to use it but you’re trained.
Janie: It was so intellectually stimulating. Like I said, that was professional heaven for me. It made me just even more self-confident. I’m a self-confident person. I’m quite adventurous and so the experiences that I’ve had throughout the years, the choices I’ve made, have just built on that. But the ultimate confidence building experience is, for me, was joining the navy. It could, I’d have to say I’m a Navy woman, but I’m sure my sisters and brothers in the air force and the army would find the same kind of fulfillment and enriching experiences there.
Susan: So how long did….
Carlos Hurston, U.S Navy
Image Credit - Carlos Hurston
Carlos Hurston
Branch: U.S Navy
Rank: E-5, HT2
Dates of Service: 1988 - 2001
Conflict: Operation Desert Storm
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Hull Technician
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Emotions (connections with others), Reasons for enlisting
[Male and female talk in a quiet indoor setting. Male is very soft-spoken.] Carlos: So, I’m Carlos Hurston, United States Navy. My dates of service was September, 1988, to January, 2001. Back in 1988, I felt like it was an opportunity to get out and travel and see some of the world. I have a brother who is 2 years older than me who got a football scholarship to college. It was still a lot going on for my parents, you know, with the lab fees and I remember him always having to go to different functions and need a suit and stuff like that. I said, “Mom, I’m gonna go to the military and let them pay for school. Go see a little bit of the world. I’m not gonna put this on you.”
Susan: Where were you geographically? Where did you live?
Carlos: West Point, Georgia, which is about an hour and a half out. So, that was my mindset. I don’t know. I used to always watch Gomer Pyles growing up. I just wanted to be in the military.
Susan: Why did you choose the navy?
Carlos: I wanted to be in the marines, but the marines told me I had flat feet. So, they thought I would have a problem getting in. So, I went to the navy recruiter. Well, let’s send you up and see what they say. And they passed me. I don’t have any issues with running or anything like that. So, that’s how I got started.
Susan: So, where did they send you?
Carlos: Well, I started off…I went to boot camp in Orlando, Florida. I left there in…I went straight overseas. I went to La Merenda, Italy. I was right off the boot.
Susan: So, were you on a ship?
Carlos: Yes. I was on the U.S.S Orion. It was a submarine tender. So, the sub would pull up and we would go on the sub and clean the sub. I was the main machine, so I would go down below deck and kind of fix whatever needed to be fixed, do whatever work orders they had for us. So, that’s what I did for the first 2 years.
Susan: Had that been your first time out of the U.S.? How was that?
Carlos: Yes. It was a little difficult. To be honest, the only place I’d ever been outside of Georgia was Florida. That was our vacation. Georgia’s week vacation is Florida. That was basically going to Jacksonville, going to the beach, something like that. For me, going overseas at 18 years old, I was a little…especially with it being such an isolated place. It wasn’t like Italy. I mean, you had to fly to Rome which was a 12-hour flight.
Susan: That’s what I was going to ask…how did you get there?
Carlos: I had to fly into Rome from New York….a 12-hour flight. From Rome, I had to catch a flight to a little town called Olbia. Then, Olbia, I had to catch a 45 minute bus ride to Palau. Then, Palau, there was a ferry to La Merenda. So that was kinda the travel we had to do. There was a big rock, there was a 3 lane bowling alley, it had a little small gym, and that was pretty much it.
Susan: So, were you stationed on there or were you on the ship?
Carlos: I was on the ship. That’s where I boarded it right there. So, whenever we went out to town, we had to catch a ferry to La Merenda then to Palau. Those were the 2 little, small islands. A lot of the sailors were rowdy. They were obviously homesick. So, a lot of the locals was told stay away from them, stay away from them, those guys were bad news. So, it was like, there wasn’t a lot of communication with the locals. So, it was a rough 2 years. But I kind of like, just worked on my professional development. Taking a lot of courses, doing a lot of things. We didn’t have internet and stuff back then.
Susan: How did you communicate with your family? Did you miss them?
Carlos: It was rough. Yeah I did, big time. We were a big family. We did big family things, you know, Sunday dinners, get togethers, birthdays, stuff like that. So, when I would call home and everybody would be having a good time and stuff, it was kinda sad.
Susan: What could you do, did you have things on the ship to do for fun?
Carlos: Not really. The people that was married, they would sometimes invite us over, out of town, like little get togethers. That was okay. It wasn’t much. We did do a little runs around, like we went to France. We went to Naples, Italy. We went to a couple places around there and those were some good get-aways.
Susan: Is that when you called in port? Were you in uniform when you got off the ship? What was the tone about the Americans?
Carlos: No, civilian clothes always. It was not a good, never good back in those days. I don’t know. I found that some of the places I went to I got good…. Like Israel. Israel really treated me great. Italy, not so much. I don’t know. They just had a thing about Americans. France, I went to Toulon, France, they was okay. Egypt, not so much. Turkey, was okay. Yeah, it just depended on the culture back then and what we were going on.
Susan: What was going on? What was the tone or conflict? Was there major tension with America at that point?
Carlos: Um, I can’t remember right off hand. I think that back in the late 80s, early 90s, I remember Jimmy Carter being the president. Then, Regan took over. I just remember they had the hostages situation going on. I just think we were looked on as arrogant. I think a lot of other people from other countries looked at us and viewed us as such.
Susan: Was that kind of a revelation for you? Was that difficult? Do you remember what was going through your head?
Carlos: It was. To be honest, I always felt like I got treated different than a lot of others. Just being a black man over in the country. I think a lot people kind of treated me different. I think they actually liked me. If that makes any sense.
Susan: Yeah, it does. What was the mix of male/female and ethnically on your crew?
Carlos: Oh it was no. It was 6 female officers, that was it. At that point, it was not an integrated navy. It was 88. I think right after that, like maybe in the nineties is when they start doing that. No, there was no females on the ship whatsoever on the ship. As a matter of fact, when I left there in 90, I went to a smaller ship in Charleston, South Carolina, called the U.S.S Bradley, it was a fast frigate. That’s right about the time they got ready to start integrating women on the ship. So, I think when I left there, I went to the U.S.S Yellowstone in Norfolk, Virginia. That was my first ship were there were females actually onboard. Back then, there was no fire ship. It could only be like submarine tenders, destroyer tenders. No combat ships at that time. That’s kind of the transition in women on the ship.
Susan: When you said like in Israel and in France, you felt like they treated you better cuz you were black. How did you know that? Was it questions they asked?
Carlos: No, I just see like the interactions. For instance, there was this bar [cough] excuse me. There was this bar in this place called Haifa, Israel. And when I go there, I used to talk to the owner and talk to one of the other guys. I was actually getting ready to leave, my ship was to be stationed somewhere else. They found out about it, I guess from my other friends. When we were go in port, we would pull in port for 2 to 3 weeks, and we would tend the ships that were out there in that area. They would pull up and we would tend. So, we kind of got to know some of the locals and some of the favorite hang-out spots and stuff like that. So, when I got ready to leave, they gave me a bottle of champagne, they handed out sparkly, lit up.
Susan: Just for you?
Carlos: Yeah. Everyone came around and stuff. I just felt like, you know, I had such a good connection with them. They really liked talking to me and I felt like, man, even the girls, the locals, they were just very nice to me. Maybe they’ve heard stories about the movement or whatever and they know what we’ve been through. I just think they looked at us different. I don’t know.
Roberto Bosco, U.S Marine Corps
Image Credit - Roberto Bosco
Roberto Bosco
Branch: U.S Marine Corps
Rank: Staff Sergeant
Dates of Service: 2003 - present (as of 2018)
Conflict: Operation Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom
Military Occupational Specialty (MOS): Personnel Retrieval and Processing (PRP)
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Reasons For Enlisting, Importance of technology in Modern Military
[Male and female talk in a quiet indoor setting.] Roberto: Once you get out of the navy you go to, we went to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina for some training, rifle training, kinda getting us the understandings of what we were gonna be exposed to. Which doesn’t work at all when it’s December, it’s freezing cold, and you’re in the woods. And then you wind up in Iraq, where it’s nothing but desert. So, my experience, I was excited cuz I just enjoyed it, I guess. My family were extremely perturbed by it to the point where they actually called their Congress members trying to find anyways possible to get me out of the deployment.
Susan: [laughs] yeah.
Roberto: My very first experience in Iraq was… it’s pitch black, 3 o’clock in the morning. Um. The plane comes to an abrupt landing, really fast, really hard. The doors open up in the back. The plane’s still rolling forward. The pilot starts telling us to jump out of the airplane. We actually landed at the airport during a rocket attack. So, all the lights are turned off, the plane’s lights are turned off. The planes do not stop when these are going on. They land, they dump their cargo, they turn around, and take right back off as fast as they can. Cuz if they’re on the ground, they’re sitting ducks. So, you have 180 plus marines just getting there for the first time, and you’re jumping out of a moving airplane, you know. All your luggage and stuff are being kicked out of the back. All the marines are just running and jumping. You get on your feet and you’re just running to the first building you see. Then, once everything calms down, they count you and make sure everybody’s got their fingers and toes. Then, you get the luxury of running around the desert looking for your luggage in pitch black with flashlights. It’s been tossed out of an airplane so everything’s scattered among a half mile radius. Very adventurous. Let’s see. The first couple of months I was in Iraq, I was very unhappy individual. I complained, I bickered, I whined. It took awhile for me to kinda get comfortable with it.
Susan: Were you angry? Were you scared?
Roberto: I was not scared. I guess the thing was, the way I always explained it to other people, um I was…one of the junior most marines, I was a very low rank. I was a lance corporal at the time, which is a E-3. When people go out into the desert, we say they get their desert goggles, which means some people that have never stepped foot out in the real world, they get out there, because of their particular rank they have responsibilities. And sometimes they just overact, they don’t understand that other people have intelligence and kind of their own opinions on things. Well, myself, I’m a little bit older. I joined the Marine Corps when I was 22; most marines join when they’re 17, 18 years old. So, I was a little bit older, been around the block a bit. I was a manager at a country club that I worked in. So, I already had the understanding of telling people what to do, leadership styles and skills, stuff like that. Just having some people above me, telling me what to do, not letting me voice my opinion, and blind to maybe some better ideas of doing some things. That got me in … rubbed me kinda the wrong way. Naturally, in Iraq or Afghanistan, wherever you are, there’s natural stressors. The environment’s different; there’s no internet, there’s no tv, there’s no cell phone. A good percentage of the time, there’s no power. The first three months I was in Iraq, there was no showers. There’s no toilets, or anything like that. So, there’s natural stressors there. Then having people kind of berate you the entire time, just added to it. So, I was very just grump. Luckily enough, another marine…This was actually his second trip out to Iraq. So, he’s already done this before. He took me under his wing, kinda explained things to me. He’s like, “Look, you kinda taking things out of context. You’re taking things way out of proportion about these things.” Then, he told me, “Look, I’ll teach you the ways. Then, if anybody gives you crap, I’ll kinda take care of you a little bit. Show you the ropes, keep the people that are being dumb away from you until you kinda settle down and really get a feel for it.” So, after a few months of that and people started realizing. The biggest thing was actually my commander, a major, he realized that if you left me alone I wouldn’t get into trouble. I liked to build things. I did a lot of carpentry and construction work while we were there. He realized if he just left me alone and let me do whatever I wanted to do, the place got better. We…I built bedrooms, I built a deck, I reinforced our compound. I magically acquired a few refrigerators and things of that nature. [Susan chuckles] So, they realized that. And once that kinda happened, everyone just kinda left me alone because they kinda realized that things were getting better, and I was happier. Marines kinda followed along suit with me and they helped me out and they stayed in good graces with people, and they didn’t get to make any trouble. It made 10 months go by very, very quickly. Before you knew it, it was already the next year and it was time to go home.
Susan: Did you stay…How many of you were there in your company?
Roberto: So, there were 75 marines. We actually went to 3 different locations. I went to Al Taqaddum, Iraq. We had a very small number, maybe 13 or 14 go to Fallujah. Then we had another good solid 30 or so go to um…..oh wow, I lost my train of thought again…it’s been so long since I’ve like kinda had to think back about it all…Al Asad, which is up in the north. We actually broke down. We had 3 collection point sites. So, like I said we were motor team, food service, but we all had to do mortuary affairs. So, we actually all working under in the army in 2005. The Marine Corps did not establish its own MOS for this particular job until we actually returned in 2006. When that happened, a good percentage of us actually lateral moved over and actually adopted the MOS as our primary MOS and that’s why now there’s a Marine Corps mortuary affairs which is known as Personnel Retrieval and Processing Company. They’re located in Smyrna, Georgia which is company owned. Then, we also have a detachment in Anacostia, in the D.C area.
Susan: Can you explain a little bit to someone who doesn’t understand? I know you refer to it as Personnel Retrieval and Processing. What is mortuary affairs?
Roberto: I mean, mortuary affairs, we deal with deceased personnel in combat. Mortuary affairs under the army’s guidelines, which is where most of our publications fall under, is pretty much just the tentative identification, the processing, and the evacuation of deceased personnel. And depending on the situation, we can do U.S and contract personnel. We can also deal with foreign government personnel. It just depends on the situation and what our mission entails. So, the army still has a mortuary affairs. They’re still known as mortuary affairs. In 2006, the Marine Corps adopted the MOS and we changed it to Personnel Retrieval and Processing. Now, under the same guidelines we still follow suit. We still tentatively identify, we process, and we evacuate out of country, so out of Iraq or Afghanistan, anywhere that’s not U.S., United States territories. The one aspect that the Marine Corps added to it, is we actually do search and recoveries as well. So, we also retrieve and that’s where the retrieval part comes in play. No other service does that. Only the Marine Corps will actually go out on missions and retrieve the human remains on site of the actual accident or situation.
Susan: So, is that something you also have to do under very difficult situations? I mean, are you armed?
Roberto: Yes. One thing the Marine Corps adopted was when a casualty happens, an explosion or anything like that and there’s a death, the unit that’s actually engaged has to stop and stand fast while there’s deceased personnel there. So, it slows down their mission. So, what the Marine Corps adopted is they’ll send out an elite team, us. We’ll go deal with all that and let those marines continue focusing on the original mission that they were focused on, which is engaging or securing a location or something like that. Because one of the things that we’re trained on is the psychological effects, while other marines aren’t necessarily trained on that. It can play a real detrimental chaos on their psyche if they see one of their brothers or one of the guys that they live with, or something like that, you know, dead on the ground. And so what we do is, we like to go there, we like to envelop the situation, kinda keep them moving forward so they are focused on the mission and not focused on what just happened. That’s one thing that the Marine Corps is, in my opinion, better for because all the other branches of service the actual unit has to call in for either an evacuation or something or the unit itself is bringing the deceased into one of the collection points. So, it adds a little bit more trauma and it slows down the operation. So, that’s one thing we try to fix by actually going up to the site. Not only that, but we’re definitely more trained in what to look for and making sure we are recovering all aspects of the situation. Making sure we’re recording information because in… they call ocodus, which is anything outside the United States, every causality is considered a homicide. It’s investigated just like any homicide that’s investigated. We look for…How it happened? Why it happened? How could we prevent it? Is the equipment protecting the individual like the equipment is designed to? Was the equipment maybe not being worn properly? So, all this stuff is taken into effect. If your mindset is, let’s say, on a particular mission, our mindset is on our particular mission which is the actual casualty. So, we take photographs of it, we do gridlines, site sketches, and all these kinds of operational things to where criminal investigators and stuff will actually take a look later down the road. And hopefully, the end result of it all is, to better equip the marines, better train the marines, so we can live with the casualty rate.
Andrea Ferguson, U.S Army Reserves
Image Credit - Andrea Ferguson
Andrea Ferguson
Branch: U.S. Army Reserves
Rank: E-4
Dates of Service: 2008 - Present (as of 2018)
Themes Represented in Audio Clip: Equality (womens role in the military/then and now), Family (juggling w/career), Reasons for enlisting...
Susan: Today, this is November 27th and I am meeting with Andrea Ferguson and we are meeting in Sandy Hills, Georgia. And this is for the Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Oral Veteran’s Project. The name of the interviewee is Andrea Ferguson. Branch of service is Army, E-4. And so, we’ll begin. She’s in the reserves. [whispers] We can leave this right here. Andrea, give me your background and what made you make the decision to go into the branch you went into?
Andrea: Um, so my family had been in the Army, it was just natural I go in the army. I didn’t consider any other branch. Actually, I did consider the air force but at the time I had a dependent, I had my daughter, and so they weren’t accepting people with dependents. So, the next choice was the Army. But, the Navy, Marines, I didn’t consider any of those because my family was Army. When I couldn’t go Air Force, Army was the next best thing.
Susan: Who in your family was in the Army?
Andrea: My mom, both of my parents, my mom, my dad, and my maternal grandmother and grandfather.
Susan: Great. So, when you went in did it meet your expectations? What was the adjustment?
Andrea: So, when I first joined, when I was going through training, I was in training for about 7 months, and that whole time I was away from my daughter. So, that was a big adjustment, not being with her. She was with family. We weren’t allowed to leave. You could only go so far from the base on the weekends. I wasn’t supposed to be driving my car but I would sneak off and drive home to visit my daughter. [laughs]
Susan: Oh my goodness. [laughs] How old was your daughter?
Andrea: She was 4 at the time.
Susan: She was aware that you were gone; that mommy was gone?
Andrea: Yeah. I got caught one time leaving. So, I got in trouble, but it was worth it.
Susan: Wow. So, where were you based?
Andrea: Fort Gordon, Augusta.
Susan: What year was this?
Andrea: This would’ve been 2008.
Susan: And you were how old then?
Andrea: Oh, I went in when I was 22 or. Yeah, 21 was when I joined. I had my 21st birthday when I was processing in.
Susan: So, you got caught.
Andrea: I got caught. I got in trouble. Um, it just meant I had to do extra duty and stuff like that.
Susan: What kind of duties?
Andrea: Oh, raking the sand. Raking the sand to put lines, make straight lines in the sand. Cleaning up leaves. Just pointless stuff [laughs].
Susan: So, did you have regret? I mean the consequences didn’t outweigh the benefits.
Andrea: No, no, definitely not.
Susan: Then when you got out of there, so?
Andrea: Then, I came. So, as a reservist, you do your training with active duty and then you go back to your home location and you’re stationed there. And so I came back to Atlanta and I’ve been at Fort Gordon. Um, at Fort Gordon, I mean honestly there was a lot less training than I thought there was gonna be. I was in a maintenance unit so we just had Humvees to keep up and some equipment to keep up with.
