Last updated: April 6, 2024
Article
Oral History Interview with Loretta Hanes
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JULY 21, 2001
INTERVIEWED BY OLOYE ADEYEMON
The transcript below corresponds to the media embedded on this page
BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
EDITORIAL NOTICE
The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. Due to the sensitive nature of the interview, it may contain inflammatory language that some find offensive. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition.ABSTRACT
Loretta Hanes was born in Washington D.C. in 1926. Her parents, Joseph and Hattie Carter, had eight children, Joseph, Anna Mae, Louise, Loretta, JB, Raven and Faith. Hanes attended the Katie Lewis Elementary School bore attending Shaw Junior High School and later Armstrong Senior High School, all of which were segregated. Hanes then attended Miner Teachers College, later DC Teachers College and now part of the University of the District of Columbia. Hanes taught briefly at Georgetown Children’s House before attaining a position at the National Security Agency then becoming a homemaker and eventually returned to teaching in the Washington D.C. public school system. Hanes recounts her experience as not just a child of segregation but of the challenges faced during the Great Depression as well, her families tie with Presidents George Washington and Dwight D. Eisenhower, and her experience as a teacher during the Bolling v. Sharpe case.People mentioned: Joseph Carter, Hattie Carter, Joseph Carter, Anna Mae Carter, Louise Carter, JB Carter, Raven Carter, Faith Carter, Suckey Bay, Rose Carter, Nancy Quander, George Washington, Judge Quander, Rohulamin Quander, Lucretia Mott, John Pershing, John Brooks Henderson, Pearl Bailey, Lillian Evanti, J. Edgar hoover, Sam Rayburn, Lyndon Johnson, Etta Weaver, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
Transcript
[Pause 00:00 – 00:09]
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection, Washington DC, school segregation/desegregation interviews. Interviewee Mrs. Loretta Hanes. Interviewer Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted on July 21st, 2001, in the home of Mr. and Mrs. Hanes in Washington, DC.
These interviews are made possible through Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project, funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site oral history project. Mrs. Hanes, what is your full name?
Loretta Carter: My name is Loretta Carter Hanes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is your birth date and place of birth?
Loretta Carter: I was born May the 9th, 1926 in Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what were your parents’ names?
Loretta Carter: My mother was Hattie Louis Thompson Carter and my father was Joseph Washington Carver.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born?
Loretta Carter: My mother was born in Orange, Virginia. My father was born in [unintelligible 01:33] district of Fairfax County. And that’s, uh, George Washington’s area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, which of your ancestors was actually enslaved on the Washington plantation?
Loretta Carter: Well, we come down from Suckey Bay. And Suckey Bay had daughter Rose and Nancy. We come out Rose, we come outta Rose who was a Carter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Suckey Bay lived on the George Washington plantation?
Loretta Carter: Yes. She was a slave of George Washington. She was freed in-in 1801 [crosstalk 02:03].
Oloye Adeyemon: And what was her children—what were her children’s names?
Loretta Carter: Nancy and Rose.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you descend from Rose?
Loretta Carter: From Rose. And Nancy-Nancy married a Quander and Rose was a Carter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’d planned to, uh, interview your cousin.
Loretta Carter: Oh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Judge Quander.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, I am familiar with their story. I’m looking forward to getting more information. But the Quanders were actually a group of people who continued to maintain history that—
Loretta Carter: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - of their origins in Ghana.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And Rohulamin Quander is, uh, the one who has traced it all the way back. For all the Quanders. There’s Quanders in Maryland, Quanders in DC, Quanders in Virginia. He tied all the Quanders together.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. I was familiar. I did some research on the Quanders in Maryland.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Very interesting, um, history.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your ancestors after leaving the George Washington, uh, plantation, [unintelligible 03:04] went where?
Loretta Carter: Well, my father and his mother, the family moved to Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And did you have brothers and sisters?
Loretta Carter: Yes. There were eight brothers. It was four brothers, four boys, and four girls and so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were they all born here in Washington, DC?
Loretta Carter: All of ’em born in Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were their names?
Loretta Carter: Uh, Dennis was the oldest. Joseph, Anna Mae, Louise, Loretta’s next. Then you have JB, then you have Raven, and then you have Faith.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you went to school, you started school here.
Loretta Carter: I started at Mott School, at Lucretia Mott, Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is the name?
Loretta Carter: Lucretia Mott School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Lucretia?
Loretta Carter: Mott. She was an abolitionist [laughter].
Oloye Adeyemon: And where was that located?
Loretta Carter: That was at Fourth and, uh, W Streets Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: And is it still standing today?
Loretta Carter: No, it’s not there. But there’s a new school there, Katie Lewis School is on the site where I was born. I was born under that same site that my school was on. Yes. They taught—Mott was on-was on the Fourth Street side. And so Mott became so old they tore it down. Then they tore all the houses down, house I was born in [unintelligible 04:15].
Oloye Adeyemon: Does the new school, it covered—
Loretta Carter: It covered.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the original site plus the additional houses.
Loretta Carter: It was on the original site where I was born.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: Katie Lewis School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And you went there throughout the elementary years?
Loretta Carter: Right. Elementary school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Were the schools segregated at that time?
Loretta Carter: Yes. We were segregated. In fact, we were so close into our area there were boundaries that we didn’t go, uh, beyond. And, uh, just like, um, Fourth Street was one boundary and Second Street was the other. Second Street there was a little white playground and white schools around, but we could not go to any of those schools. We were had our own little area and [crosstalk 04:53].
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were between Fourth and Second?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that would’ve been on the east and west?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was on the north and south of that?
Loretta Carter: Well, there was a reservoir—
Oloye Adeyemon: It was on the north?
Loretta Carter: On the north. And you have the, uh, pump house. That’s where the water’s pumped.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And so we go on the opposite side of the street [unintelligible 05:12].
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the southern boundary of that area?
Loretta Carter: Southern boundary of that area, um, well, it went all the way down to Florida Ave—Dunbar High School [unintelligible 05:23] that was around New Jersey Avenue. Uh, and that’s-that’s the cemetery.
Oloye Adeyemon: So somewhere around New Jersey was the southern boundary.
Loretta Carter: Right. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And did this area have a name that was [unintelligible 05:36]?
Loretta Carter: The neighborhood was—I was in was, uh, Le Droit Park, called Le Droit Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?
Loretta Carter: Uh, L-E, Le Droit, L-E-D-R-O-I-T, uh, Park. That was an area that the blacks lived in.
Oloye Adeyemon: That you lived in, uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what—
Loretta Carter: And Howard University is on the northwestern. I was raised—
Oloye Adeyemon: It was part of that section?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. I was raised at, you know, people—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you had said it we-went from Second to Fourth. Isn’t, uh, Howard at about Eleventh?
Loretta Carter: No. Howard goes all the way up to Fourth Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: It ends at Fourth.
Loretta Carter: Fourth Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did it always? Was it—
[Crosstalk 06:06]
Oloye Adeyemon: Did it go to Eleventh back then?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. It’s so big, it’s so big then.
Oloye Adeyemon: So would-would-would Howard have been included in that neighborhood?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All the professors and the children, we all went to school together.
Oloye Adeyemon: So maybe Second all the way over to Eleventh.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Includin’ Howard.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And at that time, the—how many high schools were there? Just Dunbar?
Loretta Carter: We had, uh, Dunbar—
Oloye Adeyemon: In your area [crosstalk 06:29].
Loretta Carter: Dunbar, Armstrong, and Cardoza. And Phelps was a vocation school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So this area that we’re speaking about, Fourth, three high schools and one-one technical high school [crosstalk 06:42].
Loretta Carter: Right. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, and the elementary school that you went to again was?
Loretta Carter: Lucretia Mott.
Oloye Adeyemon: Lucretia Mott.
Loretta Carter: And that was Fourth and W Streets Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: Fourth and W. This is all northwest section.
Loretta Carter: Northwest, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, at that time what grade did the elementary school go to?
Loretta Carter: Went up to the sixth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: There was no kindergarten?
Loretta Carter: Oh yeah. We started kindergarten.
Oloye Adeyemon: It did have a kindergarten.
Loretta Carter: We had a kindergarten. Wonderful teacher, wonderful kindergarten teacher. And it was durin’ the Depression.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: I’m a Depression, uh, child.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what year did you—you said-said sixth grade?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Went to sixth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what grade did you go to seven? What year did you go to the seventh grade?
Loretta Carter: I went into seventh grade, I’ve got to figure all the way back. It had to have been in, uh, it was in the ’30s. It have to have been in the ’30s.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you faced the double challenge of segregated—well, let me back up and not make any assumptions. Was it challenging to go to a segregated school? Were there special challenges?
Loretta Carter: Well, I don’t think you realize that you were bound in a certain area. Because everything was contained in your little community. And you did not know much about that until after you got to go and get to leave home and walk to the junior high school, walk to the high school. And this is when you notice that there were differences.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And there were different lines you couldn’t go across.
Oloye Adeyemon: Given that you’ve had experience as a parent, you’ve had experience as a teacher, uh, what would you say about your elementary education?
Loretta Carter: Well, I could say that our teachers gave the best of themselves to us. They concentrated on us because if they saw any worth in you, they were gonna make it come out. And they were very well qualified and very dedicated to us because they all lived in your community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So all your teachers were black.
Loretta Carter: Black. All [crosstalk 08:39].
Oloye Adeyemon: Were your principal and everyone?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Only time we saw a white person was when the superintendent of public schools might come by. But [unintelligible 08:45] 13. And they had two black superintendents over those divisions. And maybe at, uh, somewhere or another they would want the white superintendents might come around, but rarely did they come around.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And in terms of resources, books, and other supplies, equipment for labs, did you have the kind of equipment and books and things that the white schools did?
Loretta Carter: Oh no. It was very, very—I can remember, uh, in my first grade when there were no books at all. All we had was newsprint and we would write on the newsprint. And that’s all we had. For the—you know, we didn’t have, uh, books and things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: To read.
Loretta Carter: To read. Uh-huh. It was I can remember in the second grade we had some books. But early on in the first grade we just colored on newsprint. ’Cause that’s durin’ the Depression.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what were some of the special challenges that children faced durin’ the Depression? [Crosstalk 09:49].
Loretta Carter: Well they—it was hunger. Uh, it was, uh, there wasn’t, uh, a whole lot of money around at that time. And the clothing, you just didn’t have fancy clothes to wear. You know, you wore hand-me-downs. Everything was just like secondhand. You got everything just about secondhand.
And the, uh, it was food, clothing, and medical care. And a lot of the things that you needed you just didn’t get. Uh, you know, durin’ that period of time. Your mother was the doctor, the nurse, uh, everything else. And so it was—there were a lot of things that you just didn’t have and you-you didn’t know that you didn’t have ’cause every-everybody around you was very poor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: So, uh, it was-it was hard times.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were your parents able to find work?
Loretta Carter: Well, my father—my mother stayed with us. Uh, ’cause there were 12 youngsters all together. Only eight survived. My mother stayed at home with us. My father was the first black baker in the city.
Oloye Adeyemon: Baker?
Loretta Carter: Baker. He was a baker, trained through the Danish Baking School. And my grandmother was a private cook at the, uh, Henderson Castle, Senator Henderson. She was also a cook for General Pershing at—
Oloye Adeyemon: Senator Henderson was from what state?
Loretta Carter: Uh, I don’t remember the state. But I know that part of the castle is still there on Sixteenth Street, across from Meridian Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: And that was a real castle and my grandmother was there. And their children went with her and helped her cook.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your mother went with her?
Loretta Carter: No. That was my-that was my father’s mother.
Oloye Adeyemon: So—
Loretta Carter: Who was a cook, a special cook at the Henderson Castle.
Oloye Adeyemon: He was-he was—he became a baker?
Loretta Carter: He became a baker.
Oloye Adeyemon: As a child had he gone to the castle with her?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. As a child her whole family went to help serve. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did that cause him to have an interest in baking?
Loretta Carter: It—they saw that he had a gift. And so they put their money together and somehow or another they got him in the Danish Baking School.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say they, his parents?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. His parents and I don’t know whether the Henderson helped out or not. But he later on in life became a, uh, became a baker.
Oloye Adeyemon: You mentioned someone else she cooked for.
Loretta Carter: She cooked for General Pershing at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital. And my aunt Etta went with her everywhere. Seemed like the-the children helped them in their jobs.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did she live with your family?
Loretta Carter: My? No, she didn’t. She, well, she lived, you know, she lived with her own children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: And so and yeah, that was my grandmother and her children, my father.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So the income that you had coming in during that time was a result of him-him being able to find work as a baker.
Loretta Carter: Right. Right. And then, you know, uh, I was—well, he married my mother in the-in the ’20s. And so anyhow. Then we had our-our own home and then we were all born. From me on down were born at the house [unintelligible 12:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: When you say you had your own home, it was buying or renting?
Loretta Carter: Renting. And the last rent I think was $20 a month.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And it was funny about the, uh, durin’ that time, it was the Depression, it was hard times. And we always had plenty of bread and bakery and buns, bakery goods and buns and things like that. And I can remember, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Fringe benefits of the job.
Loretta Carter: Yes. And my-my father said, “I cannot pay my rent with-with bread and bakery goods. I must have money.” And he would quit. And they-the-the baker, the head baker, the owner, would come to the house, get down on his knees, and say, “Please come back.” He said, “I need you.”
Oloye Adeyemon: He was that good, huh?
Loretta Carter: He was that good.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what caught me was he—I-I heard you say he was trained by the Danish bakery?
Loretta Carter: Baker, Danish Baking School.
Oloye Adeyemon: But where did he actually work?
Loretta Carter: He worked at the Hellers and the Newlands, all of the big bakers, known bakeries. He worked for those-those companies.
Oloye Adeyemon: So he was able to receive money even durin’ that time?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes, he had [crosstalk 13:32].
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause they wanted him that badly.
Loretta Carter: Right. And but what happened, the funniest thing about it, is that even though there were times when he didn’t have work because he couldn’t, you know, they just couldn’t pay him and he couldn’t use it, the bakery goods, because we had to pay rent and other things. So anyhow. It was, um, it was-it was-it was quite hard. And it was a funny thing about it. There were other people around us who were, uh, less fortunate and they could get welfare. But because my daddy was trained and had some job, we couldn’t get the free foods and things.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say welfare, at that time that just meant a voucher to get food from the food bank.
Loretta Carter: Get food. Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I mean you had to stand in the food line to get food.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. You could go and you could get flour and you could get eggs and you could get, um, what else? Some fruit and whatnot. Because—
Oloye Adeyemon: As a result of the Depression, did any of the children have to work?
Loretta Carter: No. They were too young to work at that time. Uh, but we did little errands. Yeah. I-I’d do a little five cent job. I’d run errands and my brother did the papers and things like that. So but we worked in helpin’ other people. And my sister went to the Second Street where it was all white and Jewish and she would work—she’d work af-after school. Helpin’ this Jewish lady with her meals and washin’ dishes and things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. So right there at the boundary, well that’s actually a little beyond the boundary. So neighboring Fourth Street, the Fourth Street—
Loretta Carter: It was the Second Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Second Street area rather.
Loretta Carter: It was a white area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Ordering that so I guess we’re talking about to the east?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that right? So who was it that lived? Was it an immigrant community?
Loretta Carter: Well, it was—immigrant community, Jewish. And, uh, that’s where you’d go to get little odd jobs and things like that. And my sister went—
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were mostly—were they Eastern Europeans and southern Europeans in that area at that time?
Loretta Carter: No. I can remember the Jewish community and they would come around. They’d come and pick dandelions and ask us to help ’em too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who lived to the south of—
Loretta Carter: Well, I knew—
Oloye Adeyemon: - all the way down to the south?
Loretta Carter: Most of them were black. [Unintelligible 15:44].
Oloye Adeyemon: Beyond that. I mean not beyond your house, but I’m saying beyond it.
Loretta Carter: South. They were black. Mm-hmm. They were black.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you say the southern boundary of the neighborhood was?
Loretta Carter: It went all the way down to Armstrong and Dunbar and that was O and P. And then that area. In fact—
Oloye Adeyemon: I think you said, um, [crosstalk 16:02] New Jersey.
Loretta Carter: - we had blacks all the way down. Yeah. We had blacks all the way down southwest. Because I remember goin’ in those homes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So really then on the southern bord-border, you extended all the way down to the border of southwest.
Loretta Carter: [Unintelligible 16:12] all the way down to the river.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And that would’ve been the Potomac?
Loretta Carter: Potomac, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then to the north, who lived on the other side of the reservoir?
Loretta Carter: Oh, that was-that was all white.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what-what was their background?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well, I know there were Jewish stores in there and—
Oloye Adeyemon: To the north of [crosstalk 16:28]?
Loretta Carter: Yes. They were immigrants too, uh, because they all had accents. And I’m sure they were Jewish.
Oloye Adeyemon: What about on the other side of Howard to the west?
Loretta Carter: To the west there were blacks and then there—yeah. Mostly over that way, that’s U Street area, that was-that was black too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Beyond Eleventh Street.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. That was black too. Vermont Avenue and all along that, that was black.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: I think that was your first settlement of blacks when they first came to, you know, from different, uh, Virginia and other places durin’ the Civil War and slavery.
Oloye Adeyemon: They settled west of, uh, Howard?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Yeah. Yep.
Oloye Adeyemon: So was there anything that stands out about the elementary years? Particularly somethin’ that might’ve shaped you there.
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. Because durin’-durin’ my time in elementary school, you had Mrs. Mary McLeod, we had all the leaders to come and see you. They came—
Oloye Adeyemon: They came to your school?
Loretta Carter: Came to our school. We-we talked to them. They gave us a prize and we wanted to be like that. I said, “I’m gonna be like Mrs. Mary McCleod.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.
Loretta Carter: And so anyhow. There wasn’t anything that you—or any person that you didn’t see when you were a child.
Oloye Adeyemon: At the elementary school?
Loretta Carter: At the elementary school they were put that—that-that was your history.
Oloye Adeyemon: They came in to see you?
Loretta Carter: They came in to see you.
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause she was in Florida.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They came in to see me, they walked the aisles. And, uh, so anyhow, but this is what we got. We got a culture and the bein’ that Howard University since we were, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: So close.
Loretta Carter: - neighbors to Howard, first the students came down there from Howard and were teachin’ in music. And they worked with us and had us in plays and drama. We were just—and that’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. These were things that schools didn’t normally offer.
Loretta Carter: Right. But we-we learned how to speak, we learned how to stand, to sing, and to do all these kinds of things. Because we were in the mouth of Howard University and we got the benefit of the professors and their children bein’ in classes with us.
Oloye Adeyemon: So the-the children of the professors went to school with you.
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All of them were with us. And you had the Drew, Drew the, uh, famous doctor. He was at, uh, at Mott School. We have a lot of famous people who went through [unintelligible 18:27].
Oloye Adeyemon: He went to the school or his children did?
Loretta Carter: Drew, all of them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Drew went? Himself?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All of them went to Mott School because that was a very famous school. Like it was attached to Howard University.
Oloye Adeyemon: How long—when-when was, uh, Mott School established?
Loretta Carter: Uh, Mott School was [unintelligible 18:45].
Oloye Adeyemon: Before 1930?
Loretta Carter: Uh, oh yes. Oh yeah. It had—yeah. It was, uh, an early school, one of the early schools. Because Le Droit Park was really the cream of the crop of the black people.
Oloye Adeyemon: In-in the DC area?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. That’s where your-where your leaders were in that area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you went on to junior high school, what school did you attend?
Loretta Carter: I started at Shaw Junior High School. And the Shaw Junior High School was overcrowded. That was one thing about the black schools, they were overcrowded and overcrowded [crosstalk 19:16].
Oloye Adeyemon: Your elementary school was [unintelligible 19:17]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, elementary school there were loads of children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now in the white schools, was the student ratio smaller?
Loretta Carter: It was much smaller.
Oloye Adeyemon: How-how-how much smaller would you say?
Loretta Carter: I really don’t know the statistics. But I know that-that we were all crowded in like sardines, you may as well say.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, in the elementary school years, you were—you didn’t have to walk far to school.
Loretta Carter: I went out of my back door right into the school yard.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, when you went to junior high school did any of the children have to walk a long distance?
Loretta Carter: I had to walk. Yes, we walked several blocks. I mean we walked [unintelligible 19:49] from Bryant Street to, um, to Rhode Island Avenue.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 19:54].
Loretta Carter: Rhode Island Avenue and Seventh.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s where Shaw was.
Loretta Carter: That’s where Shaw is sittin’ today.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yep. And the same Shaw that you attended is there today.
Loretta Carter: It’s there. It’s a senior citizens home now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And the Shaw was, uh, rebuilt. They built another Shaw and that’s at, uh, on Rhode Island Avenue and Ninth, Ninth and Rhode Island Avenue Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: So when you were walking to junior high school, you—some students walked further than others.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: There—was there any, uh, school transportation for any of the students?
Loretta Carter: No, no. We walked everywhere.
Oloye Adeyemon: How about white students? Did they have school transportation?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well their schools were closer.
Oloye Adeyemon: Than their—
Loretta Carter: Than-than ours were. And to them. And but we had a long walk. We walked.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: Rain, snow, sleet, or hail we had to walk. And, uh, I didn’t really know anything about a bus or streetcar until later on.
Oloye Adeyemon: How-how-how was the, uh, condition of the junior high school?
Loretta Carter: Well, the junior high school was very intriguing, very—and fascinating. Because most of the children in junior high school came from various communities. Where at Mott it was the Mott community. Where at Shaw you had them comin’ from different areas because that was one of our few junior high schools that was like an academic high school. Where the cream of the crop, their children went there too.
So all of the schools that I attended, you really got a chance to-to be inspired by your classmates. ’Cause they were into music on the side. You know, they would take the 25 cent lessons and then I’d beg my mother. So I was able to get 25 cent lessons and things like that. But you were inspired. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you got to junior high school, were there certain subjects that began to attract your attention more than others?
Loretta Carter: Well, I didn’t stay at Shaw too long because Shaw was overcrowded. Then, uh, Garnet Patterson, that’s at Tenth and U, that’s where they [unintelligible 21:50] that area. So didn’t stay there too long. But then I went to Banneker because Banneker was bein’ built at the time to take the overflow. And that’s at, uh, Georgia Avenue and [crosstalk 22:02].
Oloye Adeyemon: Now you said where the—what did you say about what was at the, uh, site of the Civil War?
Loretta Carter: The Civil War memorial is at Tenth and U Streets.
Oloye Adeyemon: You said something about [unintelligible 22:12].
Loretta Carter: Garnet Patterson is directly across from there.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s what a junior high school?
Loretta Carter: That’s a-that’s a junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So did you—were you sayin’ you left Shaw and went to Garnet?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because of the—
Oloye Adeyemon: And then from Garnet to?
Loretta Carter: Went to Banneker.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: And I was one of the first class when first—Banneker first opened.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, Garnet and Shaw both existed at the same time.
Loretta Carter: That is correct. There were two black schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: And why did you go from Shaw to Garnet?
Loretta Carter: Because of the overcrowdin’. They were—
Oloye Adeyemon: Garnet wasn’t as crowded.
Loretta Carter: That-that’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. You were close enough.
Loretta Carter: And then Banneker was bein’ built for the overflow. Yeah. And Pearl Bailey’s, uh, mother went to Garnet Patterson, went to high school. So that was the hub of U Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: That was the hub of our black life and our black history and all that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: In Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when you went to Banneker?
Loretta Carter: Banneker was very excitin’. It was a brand-new school. Uh, Mrs. Walker was the principal. Your teachers were very outgoing, very, very special. Uh, somehow or another I became the pet of many of my teachers. And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Why?
Loretta Carter: I-I don’t know. They fell in love with me [unintelligible 23:15] because I was very apt, you know, and-and very good in my studies. And so they took a liking to me and I took a liking to them. And they had me in plays and whatnot. And they taught us dancin’ and singin’ and that kind of thing. And I think that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Again, this is partly because of Howard’s influence.
Loretta Carter: That’s Howard’s influence and whatnot. And so it was-it was—’cause we right in the mouth of Howard at Banneker. And now it’s a senior high school, but it was junior high school when it first opened. But we right in the mouth of Howard. And, uh, I think the teachers were just-just so unusual. And then you were getting specialized, uh, teachers, in you know math, science, and music, and whatnot. We had a lot of plays, operettas, and things like that.
So I was always chosen to be in it. And I loved to dance and that’s where I got my first dancin’ and I learned tap dancin’. And then I was able to dance for Ms. Eleanor Roosevelt on Howard Theater stage and at Lincoln Theater stage.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that?
Loretta Carter: That was in the ’40s.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really? So—
Loretta Carter: And this is for the March of Dimes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you would’ve been? What [unintelligible 24:22]?
Loretta Carter: I-I stayed at the—I left—
Oloye Adeyemon: You-you were out of-out of, uh, junior high [unintelligible 24:26]?
Loretta Carter: I was still in junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: You were still in junior high school.
Loretta Carter: Still in junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you had that opportunity to—
Loretta Carter: I had opportunity.
Oloye Adeyemon: So from there you went to what high school?
Loretta Carter: That’s where I went to Armstrong Senior High School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Armstrong. And where was Armstrong located?
Loretta Carter: The Armstrong was First and O Streets. And that was a long walk from home. That was a long walk.
Oloye Adeyemon: Longer than junior high?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. Oh yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: How many blocks?
Loretta Carter: Oh, I’m tellin’ you it took me about a half hour.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had to go all the way from—
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - Fourth Street.
Loretta Carter: From Bryant Street, right. All the way down to uh, Armstrong. It was a long walk. Sometimes you’ll see my older sister went with me for a while. When she graduated, I had to get there by myself. And it was a long, lonesome road goin’ to and from high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what—it’s—now the Armstrong that you went to is still there?
Loretta Carter: The buildin’ is there, but it’s not. It’s closed and it possibly—it’s a historic buildin’ because Booker T. Washington delivered the speech when the school first opened in the early 1900s. And it’s on a historic [crosstalk 25:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: Late 1800s or early 1900s?
Loretta Carter: It’s first part of the 1900s. And so it’s a historic landmark. And—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where is Armstrong today? [Unintelligible 25:43].
Loretta Carter: It’s still the—there there is no new Armstrong.
Oloye Adeyemon: There is not an Armstrong senior high school.
Loretta Carter: No. Our technical school closed that. That’s where all your architects and engineers got their, uh, degrees and went on to Howard University.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: The things, if you check around the country, the things architects came from Armstrong. And music.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: That was a music, uh, school also. [Unintelligible 26:05] team. Lillian Evanti, our famous opera singer who went abroad, she—her father was the principal of Armstrong.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was his name?
Loretta Carter: Um, Lillian Evanti, the famous opera.
Oloye Adeyemon: So by the time you got there, uh, had you decided what career you wanted to go into?
Loretta Carter: No. I—well, I really wanted to be a nurse. Because nursin’ was in my family. So any—
Oloye Adeyemon: Which of your parents [unintelligible 26:31]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well my aunts were nurses.
Oloye Adeyemon: On your mother’s or father’s side?
Loretta Carter: My father’s side. And one, um, J. Edgar Hoover, you’ve heard of him, um, Sam Rayburn, you’ve heard of him. My-my people, my aunts, worked for Sam Rayburn. Lyndon Johnson.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:50].
Loretta Carter: Different people.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:52].
Loretta Carter: Uh, yes. But my aunt, the oldest aunt, was not a [unintelligible 26:55]. She—when she was over in Alexandria, Virginia as a child, they had a white doctor. And he would come through if they was sick and she would sit there right with this doctor. This is Aunt Etta Fossie Carter Weaver. She would sit there with the doctor. And she said, “I wanna be a doctor.” Now, she was young.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: So anyhow. She was so intrigued by medicine the doctor said, “Well, I’ll see what I can do.” And when they moved from Gum Springs, Alexandria, Fairfax, whatever they call it, over to DC she began to pursue this. It was in her to be a nurse and whatnot. So she-she was a, uh, cook, um, um, a maid. She was everything that they could be. Had her own business, had her own [unintelligible 27:50] tax and whatnot. But she still kept goin’ with her medicine.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 27:55] taxes.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. She had some tax [unintelligible 27:57] license around here somewhere. So anyhow, um, she got into, uh, Garfield. That’s right there in [unintelligible 28:07] and Florida Avenue. That’s Garfield, where the famous Garfield Hospital. So she was able to go to that hospital and to work. And then she began to work for the doctors there.
And she got into the heart, workin’ with the heart doctors and the special doctors. And the foot, the-the baseball players. Uh, J. Edgar Hoover and all these other people, she was able to, uh, work with the medical doctors on these families. On the families of Washington, DC.
And her case was very, um, unusual. Because, uh, their records of what she did and who she worked with, she was the first black nurse at the doctor’s hospital, [unintelligible 28:54] all white. And so anyhow. The-the people at the hospital said, “Oh, Miss, uh, you have to come in the back door.” And her physician came along and said, “No. This is my nurse. She is my nurse. She comes in the front door.”
So that’s how she was so determined to be—get into medicine, the nursing. She was able to practice with the doctors who were the specialists, heart specialists in the city. And in her later years, uh, when General Eisenhower lay sick unto death at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, uh, she said—she told me, she said, “I-I’m very, very, very, uh, upset because they’re allowing my general to-to die because they’re not givin’ him nourishment.”
And she is—was a young girl when she met General Eisenhower at Walter Reed when he was visitin’ General Pershing. So anyhow. She-she-she-she said, “What am I to do?” I had her to call her minister, Reverend Wheeler at, uh, Vermont Avenue Baptist Church. And he said, “Well, if-if you wanted to call, call Walter Reed.”
So I set it up and called Walter Reed. So she talked with one of the nurses there and she told ’em, she said, “Here are my credentials, here’s my name. I worked for these doctors.” So they said, “What would you have us to do for the general?” She said, “You’ve gotta give him nourishment. You’ve gotta give him an eggnog mix.” So she—they said, “Well, we’ll check it out.” So the—this person called my aunt back and I got [unintelligible 30:32].
Oloye Adeyemon: You have records? You have documentation?
Loretta Carter: Yes. This-this, uh, person called her back and said, “Ms. Weaver, we’re gonna try it.” Because evidently it checked out. Because she was still in the phone book, even though she’s way up in age, as a nurse. So anyhow they tried it. And when he died, I was in her house with her because I had to help nurse her. Uh, they said, “Ms. Weaver, uh, your-your general is gone. He’s dead. But you extended his life six weeks.”
And later on one of these persons who was with General Eisenhower durin’ this ordeal [unintelligible 31:13] wrote my aunt a Christmas card. And she said, “Ms. Weaver, tell your story.” She said, “Because nobody will believe it, you have to tell it.” But we never did tell the story. We never did get to tell the story. My aunt never got to tell her story.
But I could never find that Christmas card when my aunt died. I could never find it. And I can see it. The lady had written in red. She said, “Ms. Weaver, if you don’t tell your story.” So I’m tellin’ the story that I experienced with my aunt. And it was because of her dedication to medicine, dedication to her country, and to General Eisenhower that she had met as a-as a youngster at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital, that, uh, she was concerned enough to call.
And, uh, told ’em [unintelligible 32:04]. She said, “You know, I’ve nursed all these years. We didn’t use drugs and things like that. We used nourishment.” And I’ve got her—I’ve got two of her medical nursin’ books.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had good reason to be inspired to go into nursing.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because of the family.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: [Unintelligible 32:24].
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you go into nursing?
Loretta Carter: No, I didn’t. I [laughter] and then home economics. That was the other side. I think because cookin’ and my father [unintelligible 32:31] and cookin’ my mother, my father taught my mother how to cook and to bake. And I didn’t get into that, but it was Ms. Holland at Armstrong Senior High School who said, “You are going to school. You are going to Miner Teachers College. You’re gonna be a teacher.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Who was this?
Loretta Carter: Mrs. Holland, one of my home room teachers at Armstrong Senior High School. And I was in her class and I had written this I guess it was a PhD dissertation. And she decided because of that report that I turned in for my homework that I was teacher material. And that she was gonna make sure I got to Armstrong, I got to Miner Teachers College.
So she called her mother, intercepted, and everything, and got me in to—uh, went on to Miner Teachers College. But my heart, soul, and mind was still in the nursing and or home economics. But I just went on through Miner, hittin’ and missin’, but somehow or another I turned out all right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you went to, uh, came out of Teachers College, um, did you teach?
Loretta Carter: I taught briefly with the, uh, Georgetown Children’s House. These were children who needed help whose parents had to work. They were white people. Uh, they were white children.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had white students.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what year was that?
Loretta Carter: And this was in the ’49. And it was segregation then. And this-this, uh, director of this, uh, this settlement house, that’s what we used to call ’em where they kept children while their parents worked, uh, had been in the Navy. Very liberal kind of person. And I was the first black teacher—
Oloye Adeyemon: To teach there.
Loretta Carter: - to teach there. And it was a very difficult time. It was a segregation was just hittin’ you all around. And so anyhow, I’d have to go to school and get my children ’cause they were in school half day. They were in kindergarten and I’d go pick ’em up.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year we talkin’ about?
Loretta Carter: This is 1949.
Oloye Adeyemon: Let me back up. When did you graduate from high school?
Loretta Carter: I graduated from high school in ’45 and Miner Teachers College in ’49.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then you went—came out of teachers college, you already had children?
Loretta Carter: No, no. I didn’t have children until—no. These were the children that I taught.
Oloye Adeyemon: The children that you taught.
Loretta Carter: I taught them at the Georgetown Children’s House in Georgetown, which was segregated.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now this was a private school, in other words, where their parents put them.
Loretta Carter: This was a settlement house, yeah. It was like a community chest. You know? Like United Way where they have centers for children.
Oloye Adeyemon: But these children were actually going to school during the day.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They went to school part-time and then I’d go at noon to pick ’em up and bring ’em back to the settlement house for day—you know, to take care of them while their parents were workin’. And I was teachin’ them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you were teaching them in addition to the public-school education they were getting. They had left school.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when they would get out of school, you would work with them after school. Loretta Carter: That’s work with them after school.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: I’d get-I’d get-I’d [unintelligible 35:30].
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now after doing that for how long did you—
Loretta Carter: I stayed there until about ’51 I think.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then you just raised your family?
Loretta Carter: And then I went on into government and then got married in 1952. Then started a family in ’54 and then went on from there. And then I—
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what branch of the government?
Loretta Carter: National Security Agency.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you do there?
Loretta Carter: Uh, security work.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Loretta Carter: Yes. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were there for a year before you started your family?
Loretta Carter: I was there until my first son was born. Uh, first ’54 and ’59 was my first [crosstalk 36:07].
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. So you worked there a few years.
Loretta Carter: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then I decided after I had a child I wanted to go back to teaching. So I went back through the-through the teaching experience and—
Oloye Adeyemon: What year would that have been?
Loretta Carter: That was in ’60. And I went back for the school and got, you know, went and practice teachin’ all over again.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: So I can go into public school teaching.
Oloye Adeyemon: What differences did you notice when you went back into the classroom in the ’60s from the way that teaching had been before?
Loretta Carter: Well, it was—well, when I went in to the first school was [unintelligible 36:44] and that was all, um, it was segregated. Because a lot of the whites had left the city and so you’re still teachin’ all black children in the city. Now, let me go back to Georgetown Children’s House.
It was a strange thing that occurred one day when I went to pick up the children. Uh, the teacher—now these were white children goin’ to a white school and comin’ back to this daycare. And, uh, settlement house they used to call it. And this white teacher said, “Uh, Ms. Carter, will you hold my class for me?” And that was unusual for a white teacher to ask a black teacher to hold her students.
So I-I—uh, she had to do somethin’ so I sat there and played a few nursery rhymes and sang and played with the children. And it was the strangest feelin’ because you knew segregation. You knew everything was segregated. And so anyhow, I was this black woman, the first black woman in the—in a white settlement house. And I guess the first black woman over in Georgetown, which was exclusive part of, to go into a school and sit down and you know a teacher asked me that. Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when-when we get to ’60, are there changes that you notice in what is—how teachers are teaching and in—just in the education period? With the children, parents.
Loretta Carter: Well, the teachers were still very dedicated. Because, uh, this, um, leavin’ the city. You know, this flux, everybody started movin’ out of the city and when the whites start goin’ and the blacks start goin’ and whatnot. But in-in our area it was predominantly black. You know? The-the-the teachers were black, the students were black, and whatnot. So you didn’t-you didn’t see a whole lot of difference. But the quality of education, educators, at that time was tops. And see, people—
Oloye Adeyemon: How about the students? And was the parent involvement the same?
Loretta Carter: Parent involvement was outstanding.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it was-it was outstanding as it had been early on.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because what happens now, you know parents always love their children, love their teachers, and whatnot. It was a love for the educator because they wanted their children to achieve. Because many of them had not been able to go beyond high school or junior high school, you know, my age kinda.
So they were intrigued by the profession and the doctors and lawyers. Everybody. And they lived in the community with you so there was a feelin’ of, you know, I-I’m gonna do the best that I can. And then you had teachers who are pushin’ you-you to the length, to as—if they saw anything in you, they were gonna push you all the way up and-and whatnot.
And so this was instilled through your Miner Teachers College and other educational institution, like Howard University. And so it was just I think the best teaching system on the Eastern Coast of the United States. Because it was [unintelligible 39:38] testin’. You had to go—you had to pass that test. It was a strict, hard test. You had to read and speak and do everything. You could go in an empty room, but you had to teach. So the quality of the education was outstanding among our black students.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your children did not suffer any of the prejudice and things that might’ve been suffered by some of the children—
Loretta Carter: Oh yeah. Now, my children—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that went into the white school. Well, were integrating into white schools. Or did they?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Yes, there was a big difference when my children came along. My son was born in ’60 and my daughter ’65, there was a big, big difference.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the difference?
Loretta Carter: That difference was when they threw you in the pot with everybody else, a lot of the-the-the-the—it was just that the teachers, many of the white teachers, could not understand the black culture. And they didn’t seem to reach out to understand. They were not in the black community with you, you see. They lived on the outskirts in other sections.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your children didn’t get the same encouragement from the teachers [crosstalk 40:43]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, no, no, no. They could feel it. You could feel it. ’Cause I was in the school a lot with my children.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you saw it.
Loretta Carter: I was there, I felt it, I worked along with the teacher, I did a lot of things to support the school as a parent.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was Garfield, uh, Elementary School one of the elementary schools in that neighborhood that you spoke [crosstalk 41:00]?
Loretta Carter: No, no. Garfield was out in-in the other—the area. This—we were in the northwest area. Garfield was, uh, on the east side.
Oloye Adeyemon: Southeast?
Loretta Carter: Uh, it was southeast or northeast. I think it was north. [Unintelligible 41:14].
Oloye Adeyemon: So children in the Bolling case would not have been going to school in your area?
Loretta Carter: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would the conditions that they went through be different than the ones that you experienced?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They were-they were much different. Because I understand that the-that area, that southeast area, I think it was southeast, that area had—it was just as different as our northwest, far northwest, area.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Loretta Carter: Because the-the city was divided like into four different camps.
Oloye Adeyemon: Tell me about, um, the reading program that you had. We have about a minute left.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Okay. Mrs., uh, McNamara, Mrs. Robert S. McNamara, uh, was a volunteer tutor. We were all in the Urban Service Corps, which was a volunteer program in the public school that brought in people, uh, from all walks of life. Mainly cabinet wives durin’ that time made sure that they did some volunteer service.
And that is how Mrs. Robert S. McNamara was a volunteer in the public schools. And her [unintelligible 42:20] uh, wanted her book, her child’s book. So she-she got with the DC Citizens For Better Public Education, and that is how Reading is Fundamental started in Washington, DC, in October of 1966. It’s now a national program throughout the United States and the territories.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what—and it-and it-and it helps to encourage children to—
Loretta Carter: What we do is reading is fundamental and reading. Uh, they get free books. Each year we give each child free books. This year we served about 34,000.
Oloye Adeyemon: Here in Washington?
Loretta Carter: In Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, I understand that you were the—the Washington chapter was the first chapter in the country?
Loretta Carter: This is original chapter in the United States and territories.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the national chapter is in Washington—
Loretta Carter: Is also.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but because of the history behind the Washington chapter—
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: ¬- you still exist as a separate chapter.
Loretta Carter: That’s right. That’s right And we have kept it goin’ because our motto—
Oloye Adeyemon: You’re the head of it aren’t you?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Of the Washington [crosstalk 43:12].
Loretta Carter: The DC chapter. And our motto has been reading the road to freedom, from Fred Douglass. That’s why we have struggled so much and so long to encourage reading. Because reading is the road to freedom for our children.
Oloye Adeyemon: So how do you fund the program?
Loretta Carter: It’s federally funded, part federal and part, uh, local funds. We have to raise the money. We get 75 percent at the beginnin’ and we didn’t get the money from the federal government. But now it’s 75, uh, 75 percent and 25 percent. And we raise [unintelligible 43:43].
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you very much.
Loretta Carter: Well thank you.
Oloye Adeyemon: For your help. You’ve-you’ve contributed a lot. Because, uh, in order to understand the Bolling versus Sharpe case, uh, we need to understand, uh, education in DC in general.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: You’ve helped us to understand that [crosstalk 44:00].
Loretta Carter: And the struggle continues. Reading, reading, reading. We have to read.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Loretta Carter: That’s the key to life.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Loretta Carter: You’re welcome.
[End of Audio]
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- Duration:
- 44 minutes, 11 seconds
Hanes recounts her experience as not just a child of segregation but of the challenges faced during the Great Depression as well, her families tie with Presidents George Washington and Dwight D. Eisenhower, and her experience as a teacher during the Bolling v. Sharpe case.
Download a copy here (.doc 133KB)
These interviews are made possible through Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project, funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site oral history project. Mrs. Hanes, what is your full name?
Loretta Carter: My name is Loretta Carter Hanes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is your birth date and place of birth?
Loretta Carter: I was born May the 9th, 1926 in Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what were your parents’ names?
Loretta Carter: My mother was Hattie Louis Thompson Carter and my father was Joseph Washington Carver.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born?
Loretta Carter: My mother was born in Orange, Virginia. My father was born in [unintelligible 01:33] district of Fairfax County. And that’s, uh, George Washington’s area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, which of your ancestors was actually enslaved on the Washington plantation?
Loretta Carter: Well, we come down from Suckey Bay. And Suckey Bay had daughter Rose and Nancy. We come out Rose, we come outta Rose who was a Carter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Suckey Bay lived on the George Washington plantation?
Loretta Carter: Yes. She was a slave of George Washington. She was freed in-in 1801 [crosstalk 02:03].
Oloye Adeyemon: And what was her children—what were her children’s names?
Loretta Carter: Nancy and Rose.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you descend from Rose?
Loretta Carter: From Rose. And Nancy-Nancy married a Quander and Rose was a Carter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’d planned to, uh, interview your cousin.
Loretta Carter: Oh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Judge Quander.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, I am familiar with their story. I’m looking forward to getting more information. But the Quanders were actually a group of people who continued to maintain history that—
Loretta Carter: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - of their origins in Ghana.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And Rohulamin Quander is, uh, the one who has traced it all the way back. For all the Quanders. There’s Quanders in Maryland, Quanders in DC, Quanders in Virginia. He tied all the Quanders together.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. I was familiar. I did some research on the Quanders in Maryland.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Very interesting, um, history.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your ancestors after leaving the George Washington, uh, plantation, [unintelligible 03:04] went where?
Loretta Carter: Well, my father and his mother, the family moved to Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And did you have brothers and sisters?
Loretta Carter: Yes. There were eight brothers. It was four brothers, four boys, and four girls and so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were they all born here in Washington, DC?
Loretta Carter: All of ’em born in Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were their names?
Loretta Carter: Uh, Dennis was the oldest. Joseph, Anna Mae, Louise, Loretta’s next. Then you have JB, then you have Raven, and then you have Faith.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you went to school, you started school here.
Loretta Carter: I started at Mott School, at Lucretia Mott, Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is the name?
Loretta Carter: Lucretia Mott School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Lucretia?
Loretta Carter: Mott. She was an abolitionist [laughter].
Oloye Adeyemon: And where was that located?
Loretta Carter: That was at Fourth and, uh, W Streets Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: And is it still standing today?
Loretta Carter: No, it’s not there. But there’s a new school there, Katie Lewis School is on the site where I was born. I was born under that same site that my school was on. Yes. They taught—Mott was on-was on the Fourth Street side. And so Mott became so old they tore it down. Then they tore all the houses down, house I was born in [unintelligible 04:15].
Oloye Adeyemon: Does the new school, it covered—
Loretta Carter: It covered.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the original site plus the additional houses.
Loretta Carter: It was on the original site where I was born.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: Katie Lewis School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And you went there throughout the elementary years?
Loretta Carter: Right. Elementary school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Were the schools segregated at that time?
Loretta Carter: Yes. We were segregated. In fact, we were so close into our area there were boundaries that we didn’t go, uh, beyond. And, uh, just like, um, Fourth Street was one boundary and Second Street was the other. Second Street there was a little white playground and white schools around, but we could not go to any of those schools. We were had our own little area and [crosstalk 04:53].
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were between Fourth and Second?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that would’ve been on the east and west?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was on the north and south of that?
Loretta Carter: Well, there was a reservoir—
Oloye Adeyemon: It was on the north?
Loretta Carter: On the north. And you have the, uh, pump house. That’s where the water’s pumped.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And so we go on the opposite side of the street [unintelligible 05:12].
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the southern boundary of that area?
Loretta Carter: Southern boundary of that area, um, well, it went all the way down to Florida Ave—Dunbar High School [unintelligible 05:23] that was around New Jersey Avenue. Uh, and that’s-that’s the cemetery.
Oloye Adeyemon: So somewhere around New Jersey was the southern boundary.
Loretta Carter: Right. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And did this area have a name that was [unintelligible 05:36]?
Loretta Carter: The neighborhood was—I was in was, uh, Le Droit Park, called Le Droit Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?
Loretta Carter: Uh, L-E, Le Droit, L-E-D-R-O-I-T, uh, Park. That was an area that the blacks lived in.
Oloye Adeyemon: That you lived in, uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what—
Loretta Carter: And Howard University is on the northwestern. I was raised—
Oloye Adeyemon: It was part of that section?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. I was raised at, you know, people—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you had said it we-went from Second to Fourth. Isn’t, uh, Howard at about Eleventh?
Loretta Carter: No. Howard goes all the way up to Fourth Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: It ends at Fourth.
Loretta Carter: Fourth Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did it always? Was it—
[Crosstalk 06:06]
Oloye Adeyemon: Did it go to Eleventh back then?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. It’s so big, it’s so big then.
Oloye Adeyemon: So would-would-would Howard have been included in that neighborhood?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All the professors and the children, we all went to school together.
Oloye Adeyemon: So maybe Second all the way over to Eleventh.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Includin’ Howard.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And at that time, the—how many high schools were there? Just Dunbar?
Loretta Carter: We had, uh, Dunbar—
Oloye Adeyemon: In your area [crosstalk 06:29].
Loretta Carter: Dunbar, Armstrong, and Cardoza. And Phelps was a vocation school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So this area that we’re speaking about, Fourth, three high schools and one-one technical high school [crosstalk 06:42].
Loretta Carter: Right. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, and the elementary school that you went to again was?
Loretta Carter: Lucretia Mott.
Oloye Adeyemon: Lucretia Mott.
Loretta Carter: And that was Fourth and W Streets Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: Fourth and W. This is all northwest section.
Loretta Carter: Northwest, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, at that time what grade did the elementary school go to?
Loretta Carter: Went up to the sixth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: There was no kindergarten?
Loretta Carter: Oh yeah. We started kindergarten.
Oloye Adeyemon: It did have a kindergarten.
Loretta Carter: We had a kindergarten. Wonderful teacher, wonderful kindergarten teacher. And it was durin’ the Depression.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: I’m a Depression, uh, child.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what year did you—you said-said sixth grade?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Went to sixth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what grade did you go to seven? What year did you go to the seventh grade?
Loretta Carter: I went into seventh grade, I’ve got to figure all the way back. It had to have been in, uh, it was in the ’30s. It have to have been in the ’30s.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you faced the double challenge of segregated—well, let me back up and not make any assumptions. Was it challenging to go to a segregated school? Were there special challenges?
Loretta Carter: Well, I don’t think you realize that you were bound in a certain area. Because everything was contained in your little community. And you did not know much about that until after you got to go and get to leave home and walk to the junior high school, walk to the high school. And this is when you notice that there were differences.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And there were different lines you couldn’t go across.
Oloye Adeyemon: Given that you’ve had experience as a parent, you’ve had experience as a teacher, uh, what would you say about your elementary education?
Loretta Carter: Well, I could say that our teachers gave the best of themselves to us. They concentrated on us because if they saw any worth in you, they were gonna make it come out. And they were very well qualified and very dedicated to us because they all lived in your community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So all your teachers were black.
Loretta Carter: Black. All [crosstalk 08:39].
Oloye Adeyemon: Were your principal and everyone?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Only time we saw a white person was when the superintendent of public schools might come by. But [unintelligible 08:45] 13. And they had two black superintendents over those divisions. And maybe at, uh, somewhere or another they would want the white superintendents might come around, but rarely did they come around.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And in terms of resources, books, and other supplies, equipment for labs, did you have the kind of equipment and books and things that the white schools did?
Loretta Carter: Oh no. It was very, very—I can remember, uh, in my first grade when there were no books at all. All we had was newsprint and we would write on the newsprint. And that’s all we had. For the—you know, we didn’t have, uh, books and things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: To read.
Loretta Carter: To read. Uh-huh. It was I can remember in the second grade we had some books. But early on in the first grade we just colored on newsprint. ’Cause that’s durin’ the Depression.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what were some of the special challenges that children faced durin’ the Depression? [Crosstalk 09:49].
Loretta Carter: Well they—it was hunger. Uh, it was, uh, there wasn’t, uh, a whole lot of money around at that time. And the clothing, you just didn’t have fancy clothes to wear. You know, you wore hand-me-downs. Everything was just like secondhand. You got everything just about secondhand.
And the, uh, it was food, clothing, and medical care. And a lot of the things that you needed you just didn’t get. Uh, you know, durin’ that period of time. Your mother was the doctor, the nurse, uh, everything else. And so it was—there were a lot of things that you just didn’t have and you-you didn’t know that you didn’t have ’cause every-everybody around you was very poor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: So, uh, it was-it was hard times.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were your parents able to find work?
Loretta Carter: Well, my father—my mother stayed with us. Uh, ’cause there were 12 youngsters all together. Only eight survived. My mother stayed at home with us. My father was the first black baker in the city.
Oloye Adeyemon: Baker?
Loretta Carter: Baker. He was a baker, trained through the Danish Baking School. And my grandmother was a private cook at the, uh, Henderson Castle, Senator Henderson. She was also a cook for General Pershing at—
Oloye Adeyemon: Senator Henderson was from what state?
Loretta Carter: Uh, I don’t remember the state. But I know that part of the castle is still there on Sixteenth Street, across from Meridian Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: And that was a real castle and my grandmother was there. And their children went with her and helped her cook.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your mother went with her?
Loretta Carter: No. That was my-that was my father’s mother.
Oloye Adeyemon: So—
Loretta Carter: Who was a cook, a special cook at the Henderson Castle.
Oloye Adeyemon: He was-he was—he became a baker?
Loretta Carter: He became a baker.
Oloye Adeyemon: As a child had he gone to the castle with her?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. As a child her whole family went to help serve. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did that cause him to have an interest in baking?
Loretta Carter: It—they saw that he had a gift. And so they put their money together and somehow or another they got him in the Danish Baking School.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say they, his parents?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. His parents and I don’t know whether the Henderson helped out or not. But he later on in life became a, uh, became a baker.
Oloye Adeyemon: You mentioned someone else she cooked for.
Loretta Carter: She cooked for General Pershing at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital. And my aunt Etta went with her everywhere. Seemed like the-the children helped them in their jobs.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did she live with your family?
Loretta Carter: My? No, she didn’t. She, well, she lived, you know, she lived with her own children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: And so and yeah, that was my grandmother and her children, my father.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So the income that you had coming in during that time was a result of him-him being able to find work as a baker.
Loretta Carter: Right. Right. And then, you know, uh, I was—well, he married my mother in the-in the ’20s. And so anyhow. Then we had our-our own home and then we were all born. From me on down were born at the house [unintelligible 12:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: When you say you had your own home, it was buying or renting?
Loretta Carter: Renting. And the last rent I think was $20 a month.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And it was funny about the, uh, durin’ that time, it was the Depression, it was hard times. And we always had plenty of bread and bakery and buns, bakery goods and buns and things like that. And I can remember, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Fringe benefits of the job.
Loretta Carter: Yes. And my-my father said, “I cannot pay my rent with-with bread and bakery goods. I must have money.” And he would quit. And they-the-the baker, the head baker, the owner, would come to the house, get down on his knees, and say, “Please come back.” He said, “I need you.”
Oloye Adeyemon: He was that good, huh?
Loretta Carter: He was that good.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what caught me was he—I-I heard you say he was trained by the Danish bakery?
Loretta Carter: Baker, Danish Baking School.
Oloye Adeyemon: But where did he actually work?
Loretta Carter: He worked at the Hellers and the Newlands, all of the big bakers, known bakeries. He worked for those-those companies.
Oloye Adeyemon: So he was able to receive money even durin’ that time?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes, he had [crosstalk 13:32].
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause they wanted him that badly.
Loretta Carter: Right. And but what happened, the funniest thing about it, is that even though there were times when he didn’t have work because he couldn’t, you know, they just couldn’t pay him and he couldn’t use it, the bakery goods, because we had to pay rent and other things. So anyhow. It was, um, it was-it was-it was quite hard. And it was a funny thing about it. There were other people around us who were, uh, less fortunate and they could get welfare. But because my daddy was trained and had some job, we couldn’t get the free foods and things.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say welfare, at that time that just meant a voucher to get food from the food bank.
Loretta Carter: Get food. Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I mean you had to stand in the food line to get food.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. You could go and you could get flour and you could get eggs and you could get, um, what else? Some fruit and whatnot. Because—
Oloye Adeyemon: As a result of the Depression, did any of the children have to work?
Loretta Carter: No. They were too young to work at that time. Uh, but we did little errands. Yeah. I-I’d do a little five cent job. I’d run errands and my brother did the papers and things like that. So but we worked in helpin’ other people. And my sister went to the Second Street where it was all white and Jewish and she would work—she’d work af-after school. Helpin’ this Jewish lady with her meals and washin’ dishes and things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. So right there at the boundary, well that’s actually a little beyond the boundary. So neighboring Fourth Street, the Fourth Street—
Loretta Carter: It was the Second Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Second Street area rather.
Loretta Carter: It was a white area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Ordering that so I guess we’re talking about to the east?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that right? So who was it that lived? Was it an immigrant community?
Loretta Carter: Well, it was—immigrant community, Jewish. And, uh, that’s where you’d go to get little odd jobs and things like that. And my sister went—
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were mostly—were they Eastern Europeans and southern Europeans in that area at that time?
Loretta Carter: No. I can remember the Jewish community and they would come around. They’d come and pick dandelions and ask us to help ’em too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who lived to the south of—
Loretta Carter: Well, I knew—
Oloye Adeyemon: - all the way down to the south?
Loretta Carter: Most of them were black. [Unintelligible 15:44].
Oloye Adeyemon: Beyond that. I mean not beyond your house, but I’m saying beyond it.
Loretta Carter: South. They were black. Mm-hmm. They were black.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you say the southern boundary of the neighborhood was?
Loretta Carter: It went all the way down to Armstrong and Dunbar and that was O and P. And then that area. In fact—
Oloye Adeyemon: I think you said, um, [crosstalk 16:02] New Jersey.
Loretta Carter: - we had blacks all the way down. Yeah. We had blacks all the way down southwest. Because I remember goin’ in those homes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So really then on the southern bord-border, you extended all the way down to the border of southwest.
Loretta Carter: [Unintelligible 16:12] all the way down to the river.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And that would’ve been the Potomac?
Loretta Carter: Potomac, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then to the north, who lived on the other side of the reservoir?
Loretta Carter: Oh, that was-that was all white.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what-what was their background?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well, I know there were Jewish stores in there and—
Oloye Adeyemon: To the north of [crosstalk 16:28]?
Loretta Carter: Yes. They were immigrants too, uh, because they all had accents. And I’m sure they were Jewish.
Oloye Adeyemon: What about on the other side of Howard to the west?
Loretta Carter: To the west there were blacks and then there—yeah. Mostly over that way, that’s U Street area, that was-that was black too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Beyond Eleventh Street.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. That was black too. Vermont Avenue and all along that, that was black.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: I think that was your first settlement of blacks when they first came to, you know, from different, uh, Virginia and other places durin’ the Civil War and slavery.
Oloye Adeyemon: They settled west of, uh, Howard?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Yeah. Yep.
Oloye Adeyemon: So was there anything that stands out about the elementary years? Particularly somethin’ that might’ve shaped you there.
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. Because durin’-durin’ my time in elementary school, you had Mrs. Mary McLeod, we had all the leaders to come and see you. They came—
Oloye Adeyemon: They came to your school?
Loretta Carter: Came to our school. We-we talked to them. They gave us a prize and we wanted to be like that. I said, “I’m gonna be like Mrs. Mary McCleod.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.
Loretta Carter: And so anyhow. There wasn’t anything that you—or any person that you didn’t see when you were a child.
Oloye Adeyemon: At the elementary school?
Loretta Carter: At the elementary school they were put that—that-that was your history.
Oloye Adeyemon: They came in to see you?
Loretta Carter: They came in to see you.
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause she was in Florida.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They came in to see me, they walked the aisles. And, uh, so anyhow, but this is what we got. We got a culture and the bein’ that Howard University since we were, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: So close.
Loretta Carter: - neighbors to Howard, first the students came down there from Howard and were teachin’ in music. And they worked with us and had us in plays and drama. We were just—and that’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. These were things that schools didn’t normally offer.
Loretta Carter: Right. But we-we learned how to speak, we learned how to stand, to sing, and to do all these kinds of things. Because we were in the mouth of Howard University and we got the benefit of the professors and their children bein’ in classes with us.
Oloye Adeyemon: So the-the children of the professors went to school with you.
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All of them were with us. And you had the Drew, Drew the, uh, famous doctor. He was at, uh, at Mott School. We have a lot of famous people who went through [unintelligible 18:27].
Oloye Adeyemon: He went to the school or his children did?
Loretta Carter: Drew, all of them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Drew went? Himself?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All of them went to Mott School because that was a very famous school. Like it was attached to Howard University.
Oloye Adeyemon: How long—when-when was, uh, Mott School established?
Loretta Carter: Uh, Mott School was [unintelligible 18:45].
Oloye Adeyemon: Before 1930?
Loretta Carter: Uh, oh yes. Oh yeah. It had—yeah. It was, uh, an early school, one of the early schools. Because Le Droit Park was really the cream of the crop of the black people.
Oloye Adeyemon: In-in the DC area?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. That’s where your-where your leaders were in that area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you went on to junior high school, what school did you attend?
Loretta Carter: I started at Shaw Junior High School. And the Shaw Junior High School was overcrowded. That was one thing about the black schools, they were overcrowded and overcrowded [crosstalk 19:16].
Oloye Adeyemon: Your elementary school was [unintelligible 19:17]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, elementary school there were loads of children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now in the white schools, was the student ratio smaller?
Loretta Carter: It was much smaller.
Oloye Adeyemon: How-how-how much smaller would you say?
Loretta Carter: I really don’t know the statistics. But I know that-that we were all crowded in like sardines, you may as well say.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, in the elementary school years, you were—you didn’t have to walk far to school.
Loretta Carter: I went out of my back door right into the school yard.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, when you went to junior high school did any of the children have to walk a long distance?
Loretta Carter: I had to walk. Yes, we walked several blocks. I mean we walked [unintelligible 19:49] from Bryant Street to, um, to Rhode Island Avenue.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 19:54].
Loretta Carter: Rhode Island Avenue and Seventh.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s where Shaw was.
Loretta Carter: That’s where Shaw is sittin’ today.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yep. And the same Shaw that you attended is there today.
Loretta Carter: It’s there. It’s a senior citizens home now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And the Shaw was, uh, rebuilt. They built another Shaw and that’s at, uh, on Rhode Island Avenue and Ninth, Ninth and Rhode Island Avenue Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: So when you were walking to junior high school, you—some students walked further than others.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: There—was there any, uh, school transportation for any of the students?
Loretta Carter: No, no. We walked everywhere.
Oloye Adeyemon: How about white students? Did they have school transportation?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well their schools were closer.
Oloye Adeyemon: Than their—
Loretta Carter: Than-than ours were. And to them. And but we had a long walk. We walked.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: Rain, snow, sleet, or hail we had to walk. And, uh, I didn’t really know anything about a bus or streetcar until later on.
Oloye Adeyemon: How-how-how was the, uh, condition of the junior high school?
Loretta Carter: Well, the junior high school was very intriguing, very—and fascinating. Because most of the children in junior high school came from various communities. Where at Mott it was the Mott community. Where at Shaw you had them comin’ from different areas because that was one of our few junior high schools that was like an academic high school. Where the cream of the crop, their children went there too.
So all of the schools that I attended, you really got a chance to-to be inspired by your classmates. ’Cause they were into music on the side. You know, they would take the 25 cent lessons and then I’d beg my mother. So I was able to get 25 cent lessons and things like that. But you were inspired. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you got to junior high school, were there certain subjects that began to attract your attention more than others?
Loretta Carter: Well, I didn’t stay at Shaw too long because Shaw was overcrowded. Then, uh, Garnet Patterson, that’s at Tenth and U, that’s where they [unintelligible 21:50] that area. So didn’t stay there too long. But then I went to Banneker because Banneker was bein’ built at the time to take the overflow. And that’s at, uh, Georgia Avenue and [crosstalk 22:02].
Oloye Adeyemon: Now you said where the—what did you say about what was at the, uh, site of the Civil War?
Loretta Carter: The Civil War memorial is at Tenth and U Streets.
Oloye Adeyemon: You said something about [unintelligible 22:12].
Loretta Carter: Garnet Patterson is directly across from there.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s what a junior high school?
Loretta Carter: That’s a-that’s a junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So did you—were you sayin’ you left Shaw and went to Garnet?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because of the—
Oloye Adeyemon: And then from Garnet to?
Loretta Carter: Went to Banneker.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: And I was one of the first class when first—Banneker first opened.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, Garnet and Shaw both existed at the same time.
Loretta Carter: That is correct. There were two black schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: And why did you go from Shaw to Garnet?
Loretta Carter: Because of the overcrowdin’. They were—
Oloye Adeyemon: Garnet wasn’t as crowded.
Loretta Carter: That-that’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. You were close enough.
Loretta Carter: And then Banneker was bein’ built for the overflow. Yeah. And Pearl Bailey’s, uh, mother went to Garnet Patterson, went to high school. So that was the hub of U Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: That was the hub of our black life and our black history and all that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: In Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when you went to Banneker?
Loretta Carter: Banneker was very excitin’. It was a brand-new school. Uh, Mrs. Walker was the principal. Your teachers were very outgoing, very, very special. Uh, somehow or another I became the pet of many of my teachers. And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Why?
Loretta Carter: I-I don’t know. They fell in love with me [unintelligible 23:15] because I was very apt, you know, and-and very good in my studies. And so they took a liking to me and I took a liking to them. And they had me in plays and whatnot. And they taught us dancin’ and singin’ and that kind of thing. And I think that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Again, this is partly because of Howard’s influence.
Loretta Carter: That’s Howard’s influence and whatnot. And so it was-it was—’cause we right in the mouth of Howard at Banneker. And now it’s a senior high school, but it was junior high school when it first opened. But we right in the mouth of Howard. And, uh, I think the teachers were just-just so unusual. And then you were getting specialized, uh, teachers, in you know math, science, and music, and whatnot. We had a lot of plays, operettas, and things like that.
So I was always chosen to be in it. And I loved to dance and that’s where I got my first dancin’ and I learned tap dancin’. And then I was able to dance for Ms. Eleanor Roosevelt on Howard Theater stage and at Lincoln Theater stage.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that?
Loretta Carter: That was in the ’40s.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really? So—
Loretta Carter: And this is for the March of Dimes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you would’ve been? What [unintelligible 24:22]?
Loretta Carter: I-I stayed at the—I left—
Oloye Adeyemon: You-you were out of-out of, uh, junior high [unintelligible 24:26]?
Loretta Carter: I was still in junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: You were still in junior high school.
Loretta Carter: Still in junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you had that opportunity to—
Loretta Carter: I had opportunity.
Oloye Adeyemon: So from there you went to what high school?
Loretta Carter: That’s where I went to Armstrong Senior High School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Armstrong. And where was Armstrong located?
Loretta Carter: The Armstrong was First and O Streets. And that was a long walk from home. That was a long walk.
Oloye Adeyemon: Longer than junior high?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. Oh yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: How many blocks?
Loretta Carter: Oh, I’m tellin’ you it took me about a half hour.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had to go all the way from—
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - Fourth Street.
Loretta Carter: From Bryant Street, right. All the way down to uh, Armstrong. It was a long walk. Sometimes you’ll see my older sister went with me for a while. When she graduated, I had to get there by myself. And it was a long, lonesome road goin’ to and from high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what—it’s—now the Armstrong that you went to is still there?
Loretta Carter: The buildin’ is there, but it’s not. It’s closed and it possibly—it’s a historic buildin’ because Booker T. Washington delivered the speech when the school first opened in the early 1900s. And it’s on a historic [crosstalk 25:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: Late 1800s or early 1900s?
Loretta Carter: It’s first part of the 1900s. And so it’s a historic landmark. And—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where is Armstrong today? [Unintelligible 25:43].
Loretta Carter: It’s still the—there there is no new Armstrong.
Oloye Adeyemon: There is not an Armstrong senior high school.
Loretta Carter: No. Our technical school closed that. That’s where all your architects and engineers got their, uh, degrees and went on to Howard University.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: The things, if you check around the country, the things architects came from Armstrong. And music.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: That was a music, uh, school also. [Unintelligible 26:05] team. Lillian Evanti, our famous opera singer who went abroad, she—her father was the principal of Armstrong.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was his name?
Loretta Carter: Um, Lillian Evanti, the famous opera.
Oloye Adeyemon: So by the time you got there, uh, had you decided what career you wanted to go into?
Loretta Carter: No. I—well, I really wanted to be a nurse. Because nursin’ was in my family. So any—
Oloye Adeyemon: Which of your parents [unintelligible 26:31]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well my aunts were nurses.
Oloye Adeyemon: On your mother’s or father’s side?
Loretta Carter: My father’s side. And one, um, J. Edgar Hoover, you’ve heard of him, um, Sam Rayburn, you’ve heard of him. My-my people, my aunts, worked for Sam Rayburn. Lyndon Johnson.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:50].
Loretta Carter: Different people.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:52].
Loretta Carter: Uh, yes. But my aunt, the oldest aunt, was not a [unintelligible 26:55]. She—when she was over in Alexandria, Virginia as a child, they had a white doctor. And he would come through if they was sick and she would sit there right with this doctor. This is Aunt Etta Fossie Carter Weaver. She would sit there with the doctor. And she said, “I wanna be a doctor.” Now, she was young.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: So anyhow. She was so intrigued by medicine the doctor said, “Well, I’ll see what I can do.” And when they moved from Gum Springs, Alexandria, Fairfax, whatever they call it, over to DC she began to pursue this. It was in her to be a nurse and whatnot. So she-she was a, uh, cook, um, um, a maid. She was everything that they could be. Had her own business, had her own [unintelligible 27:50] tax and whatnot. But she still kept goin’ with her medicine.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 27:55] taxes.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. She had some tax [unintelligible 27:57] license around here somewhere. So anyhow, um, she got into, uh, Garfield. That’s right there in [unintelligible 28:07] and Florida Avenue. That’s Garfield, where the famous Garfield Hospital. So she was able to go to that hospital and to work. And then she began to work for the doctors there.
And she got into the heart, workin’ with the heart doctors and the special doctors. And the foot, the-the baseball players. Uh, J. Edgar Hoover and all these other people, she was able to, uh, work with the medical doctors on these families. On the families of Washington, DC.
And her case was very, um, unusual. Because, uh, their records of what she did and who she worked with, she was the first black nurse at the doctor’s hospital, [unintelligible 28:54] all white. And so anyhow. The-the people at the hospital said, “Oh, Miss, uh, you have to come in the back door.” And her physician came along and said, “No. This is my nurse. She is my nurse. She comes in the front door.”
So that’s how she was so determined to be—get into medicine, the nursing. She was able to practice with the doctors who were the specialists, heart specialists in the city. And in her later years, uh, when General Eisenhower lay sick unto death at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, uh, she said—she told me, she said, “I-I’m very, very, very, uh, upset because they’re allowing my general to-to die because they’re not givin’ him nourishment.”
And she is—was a young girl when she met General Eisenhower at Walter Reed when he was visitin’ General Pershing. So anyhow. She-she-she-she said, “What am I to do?” I had her to call her minister, Reverend Wheeler at, uh, Vermont Avenue Baptist Church. And he said, “Well, if-if you wanted to call, call Walter Reed.”
So I set it up and called Walter Reed. So she talked with one of the nurses there and she told ’em, she said, “Here are my credentials, here’s my name. I worked for these doctors.” So they said, “What would you have us to do for the general?” She said, “You’ve gotta give him nourishment. You’ve gotta give him an eggnog mix.” So she—they said, “Well, we’ll check it out.” So the—this person called my aunt back and I got [unintelligible 30:32].
Oloye Adeyemon: You have records? You have documentation?
Loretta Carter: Yes. This-this, uh, person called her back and said, “Ms. Weaver, we’re gonna try it.” Because evidently it checked out. Because she was still in the phone book, even though she’s way up in age, as a nurse. So anyhow they tried it. And when he died, I was in her house with her because I had to help nurse her. Uh, they said, “Ms. Weaver, uh, your-your general is gone. He’s dead. But you extended his life six weeks.”
And later on one of these persons who was with General Eisenhower durin’ this ordeal [unintelligible 31:13] wrote my aunt a Christmas card. And she said, “Ms. Weaver, tell your story.” She said, “Because nobody will believe it, you have to tell it.” But we never did tell the story. We never did get to tell the story. My aunt never got to tell her story.
But I could never find that Christmas card when my aunt died. I could never find it. And I can see it. The lady had written in red. She said, “Ms. Weaver, if you don’t tell your story.” So I’m tellin’ the story that I experienced with my aunt. And it was because of her dedication to medicine, dedication to her country, and to General Eisenhower that she had met as a-as a youngster at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital, that, uh, she was concerned enough to call.
And, uh, told ’em [unintelligible 32:04]. She said, “You know, I’ve nursed all these years. We didn’t use drugs and things like that. We used nourishment.” And I’ve got her—I’ve got two of her medical nursin’ books.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had good reason to be inspired to go into nursing.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because of the family.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: [Unintelligible 32:24].
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you go into nursing?
Loretta Carter: No, I didn’t. I [laughter] and then home economics. That was the other side. I think because cookin’ and my father [unintelligible 32:31] and cookin’ my mother, my father taught my mother how to cook and to bake. And I didn’t get into that, but it was Ms. Holland at Armstrong Senior High School who said, “You are going to school. You are going to Miner Teachers College. You’re gonna be a teacher.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Who was this?
Loretta Carter: Mrs. Holland, one of my home room teachers at Armstrong Senior High School. And I was in her class and I had written this I guess it was a PhD dissertation. And she decided because of that report that I turned in for my homework that I was teacher material. And that she was gonna make sure I got to Armstrong, I got to Miner Teachers College.
So she called her mother, intercepted, and everything, and got me in to—uh, went on to Miner Teachers College. But my heart, soul, and mind was still in the nursing and or home economics. But I just went on through Miner, hittin’ and missin’, but somehow or another I turned out all right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you went to, uh, came out of Teachers College, um, did you teach?
Loretta Carter: I taught briefly with the, uh, Georgetown Children’s House. These were children who needed help whose parents had to work. They were white people. Uh, they were white children.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had white students.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what year was that?
Loretta Carter: And this was in the ’49. And it was segregation then. And this-this, uh, director of this, uh, this settlement house, that’s what we used to call ’em where they kept children while their parents worked, uh, had been in the Navy. Very liberal kind of person. And I was the first black teacher—
Oloye Adeyemon: To teach there.
Loretta Carter: - to teach there. And it was a very difficult time. It was a segregation was just hittin’ you all around. And so anyhow, I’d have to go to school and get my children ’cause they were in school half day. They were in kindergarten and I’d go pick ’em up.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year we talkin’ about?
Loretta Carter: This is 1949.
Oloye Adeyemon: Let me back up. When did you graduate from high school?
Loretta Carter: I graduated from high school in ’45 and Miner Teachers College in ’49.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then you went—came out of teachers college, you already had children?
Loretta Carter: No, no. I didn’t have children until—no. These were the children that I taught.
Oloye Adeyemon: The children that you taught.
Loretta Carter: I taught them at the Georgetown Children’s House in Georgetown, which was segregated.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now this was a private school, in other words, where their parents put them.
Loretta Carter: This was a settlement house, yeah. It was like a community chest. You know? Like United Way where they have centers for children.
Oloye Adeyemon: But these children were actually going to school during the day.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They went to school part-time and then I’d go at noon to pick ’em up and bring ’em back to the settlement house for day—you know, to take care of them while their parents were workin’. And I was teachin’ them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you were teaching them in addition to the public-school education they were getting. They had left school.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when they would get out of school, you would work with them after school.
Loretta Carter: That’s work with them after school.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: I’d get-I’d get-I’d [unintelligible 35:30].
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now after doing that for how long did you—
Loretta Carter: I stayed there until about ’51 I think.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then you just raised your family?
Loretta Carter: And then I went on into government and then got married in 1952. Then started a family in ’54 and then went on from there. And then I—
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what branch of the government?
Loretta Carter: National Security Agency.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you do there?
Loretta Carter: Uh, security work.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Loretta Carter: Yes. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were there for a year before you started your family?
Loretta Carter: I was there until my first son was born. Uh, first ’54 and ’59 was my first [crosstalk 36:07].
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. So you worked there a few years.
Loretta Carter: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then I decided after I had a child I wanted to go back to teaching. So I went back through the-through the teaching experience and—
Oloye Adeyemon: What year would that have been?
Loretta Carter: That was in ’60. And I went back for the school and got, you know, went and practice teachin’ all over again.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: So I can go into public school teaching.
Oloye Adeyemon: What differences did you notice when you went back into the classroom in the ’60s from the way that teaching had been before?
Loretta Carter: Well, it was—well, when I went in to the first school was [unintelligible 36:44] and that was all, um, it was segregated. Because a lot of the whites had left the city and so you’re still teachin’ all black children in the city. Now, let me go back to Georgetown Children’s House.
It was a strange thing that occurred one day when I went to pick up the children. Uh, the teacher—now these were white children goin’ to a white school and comin’ back to this daycare. And, uh, settlement house they used to call it. And this white teacher said, “Uh, Ms. Carter, will you hold my class for me?” And that was unusual for a white teacher to ask a black teacher to hold her students.
So I-I—uh, she had to do somethin’ so I sat there and played a few nursery rhymes and sang and played with the children. And it was the strangest feelin’ because you knew segregation. You knew everything was segregated. And so anyhow, I was this black woman, the first black woman in the—in a white settlement house. And I guess the first black woman over in Georgetown, which was exclusive part of, to go into a school and sit down and you know a teacher asked me that. Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when-when we get to ’60, are there changes that you notice in what is—how teachers are teaching and in—just in the education period? With the children, parents.
Loretta Carter: Well, the teachers were still very dedicated. Because, uh, this, um, leavin’ the city. You know, this flux, everybody started movin’ out of the city and when the whites start goin’ and the blacks start goin’ and whatnot. But in-in our area it was predominantly black. You know? The-the-the teachers were black, the students were black, and whatnot. So you didn’t-you didn’t see a whole lot of difference. But the quality of education, educators, at that time was tops. And see, people—
Oloye Adeyemon: How about the students? And was the parent involvement the same?
Loretta Carter: Parent involvement was outstanding.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it was-it was outstanding as it had been early on.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because what happens now, you know parents always love their children, love their teachers, and whatnot. It was a love for the educator because they wanted their children to achieve. Because many of them had not been able to go beyond high school or junior high school, you know, my age kinda.
So they were intrigued by the profession and the doctors and lawyers. Everybody. And they lived in the community with you so there was a feelin’ of, you know, I-I’m gonna do the best that I can. And then you had teachers who are pushin’ you-you to the length, to as—if they saw anything in you, they were gonna push you all the way up and-and whatnot.
And so this was instilled through your Miner Teachers College and other educational institution, like Howard University. And so it was just I think the best teaching system on the Eastern Coast of the United States. Because it was [unintelligible 39:38] testin’. You had to go—you had to pass that test. It was a strict, hard test. You had to read and speak and do everything. You could go in an empty room, but you had to teach. So the quality of the education was outstanding among our black students.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your children did not suffer any of the prejudice and things that might’ve been suffered by some of the children—
Loretta Carter: Oh yeah. Now, my children—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that went into the white school. Well, were integrating into white schools. Or did they?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Yes, there was a big difference when my children came along. My son was born in ’60 and my daughter ’65, there was a big, big difference.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the difference?
Loretta Carter: That difference was when they threw you in the pot with everybody else, a lot of the-the-the-the—it was just that the teachers, many of the white teachers, could not understand the black culture. And they didn’t seem to reach out to understand. They were not in the black community with you, you see. They lived on the outskirts in other sections.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your children didn’t get the same encouragement from the teachers [crosstalk 40:43]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, no, no, no. They could feel it. You could feel it. ’Cause I was in the school a lot with my children.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you saw it.
Loretta Carter: I was there, I felt it, I worked along with the teacher, I did a lot of things to support the school as a parent.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was Garfield, uh, Elementary School one of the elementary schools in that neighborhood that you spoke [crosstalk 41:00]?
Loretta Carter: No, no. Garfield was out in-in the other—the area. This—we were in the northwest area. Garfield was, uh, on the east side.
Oloye Adeyemon: Southeast?
Loretta Carter: Uh, it was southeast or northeast. I think it was north. [Unintelligible 41:14].
Oloye Adeyemon: So children in the Bolling case would not have been going to school in your area?
Loretta Carter: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would the conditions that they went through be different than the ones that you experienced?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They were-they were much different. Because I understand that the-that area, that southeast area, I think it was southeast, that area had—it was just as different as our northwest, far northwest, area.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Loretta Carter: Because the-the city was divided like into four different camps.
Oloye Adeyemon: Tell me about, um, the reading program that you had. We have about a minute left.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Okay. Mrs., uh, McNamara, Mrs. Robert S. McNamara, uh, was a volunteer tutor. We were all in the Urban Service Corps, which was a volunteer program in the public school that brought in people, uh, from all walks of life. Mainly cabinet wives durin’ that time made sure that they did some volunteer service.
And that is how Mrs. Robert S. McNamara was a volunteer in the public schools. And her [unintelligible 42:20] uh, wanted her book, her child’s book. So she-she got with the DC Citizens For Better Public Education, and that is how Reading is Fundamental started in Washington, DC, in October of 1966. It’s now a national program throughout the United States and the territories.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what—and it-and it-and it helps to encourage children to—
Loretta Carter: What we do is reading is fundamental and reading. Uh, they get free books. Each year we give each child free books. This year we served about 34,000.
Oloye Adeyemon: Here in Washington?
Loretta Carter: In Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, I understand that you were the—the Washington chapter was the first chapter in the country?
Loretta Carter: This is original chapter in the United States and territories.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the national chapter is in Washington—
Loretta Carter: Is also.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but because of the history behind the Washington chapter—
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: ¬- you still exist as a separate chapter.
Loretta Carter: That’s right. That’s right And we have kept it goin’ because our motto—
Oloye Adeyemon: You’re the head of it aren’t you?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Of the Washington [crosstalk 43:12].
Loretta Carter: The DC chapter. And our motto has been reading the road to freedom, from Fred Douglass. That’s why we have struggled so much and so long to encourage reading. Because reading is the road to freedom for our children.
Oloye Adeyemon: So how do you fund the program?
Loretta Carter: It’s federally funded, part federal and part, uh, local funds. We have to raise the money. We get 75 percent at the beginnin’ and we didn’t get the money from the federal government. But now it’s 75, uh, 75 percent and 25 percent. And we raise [unintelligible 43:43].
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you very much.
Loretta Carter: Well thank you.
Oloye Adeyemon: For your help. You’ve-you’ve contributed a lot. Because, uh, in order to understand the Bolling versus Sharpe case, uh, we need to understand, uh, education in DC in general.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: You’ve helped us to understand that [crosstalk 44:00].
Loretta Carter: And the struggle continues. Reading, reading, reading. We have to read.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Loretta Carter: That’s the key to life.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Loretta Carter: You’re welcome.
Oral History Interview with Loretta Hanes
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection, Washington DC, school segregation/desegregation interviews. Interviewee Mrs. Loretta Hanes. Interviewer Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted on July 21st, 2001, in the home of Mr. and Mrs. Hanes in Washington, DC.These interviews are made possible through Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project, funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site oral history project. Mrs. Hanes, what is your full name?
Loretta Carter: My name is Loretta Carter Hanes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is your birth date and place of birth?
Loretta Carter: I was born May the 9th, 1926 in Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what were your parents’ names?
Loretta Carter: My mother was Hattie Louis Thompson Carter and my father was Joseph Washington Carver.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born?
Loretta Carter: My mother was born in Orange, Virginia. My father was born in [unintelligible 01:33] district of Fairfax County. And that’s, uh, George Washington’s area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, which of your ancestors was actually enslaved on the Washington plantation?
Loretta Carter: Well, we come down from Suckey Bay. And Suckey Bay had daughter Rose and Nancy. We come out Rose, we come outta Rose who was a Carter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Suckey Bay lived on the George Washington plantation?
Loretta Carter: Yes. She was a slave of George Washington. She was freed in-in 1801 [crosstalk 02:03].
Oloye Adeyemon: And what was her children—what were her children’s names?
Loretta Carter: Nancy and Rose.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you descend from Rose?
Loretta Carter: From Rose. And Nancy-Nancy married a Quander and Rose was a Carter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’d planned to, uh, interview your cousin.
Loretta Carter: Oh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Judge Quander.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, I am familiar with their story. I’m looking forward to getting more information. But the Quanders were actually a group of people who continued to maintain history that—
Loretta Carter: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - of their origins in Ghana.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And Rohulamin Quander is, uh, the one who has traced it all the way back. For all the Quanders. There’s Quanders in Maryland, Quanders in DC, Quanders in Virginia. He tied all the Quanders together.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. I was familiar. I did some research on the Quanders in Maryland.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Very interesting, um, history.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your ancestors after leaving the George Washington, uh, plantation, [unintelligible 03:04] went where?
Loretta Carter: Well, my father and his mother, the family moved to Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And did you have brothers and sisters?
Loretta Carter: Yes. There were eight brothers. It was four brothers, four boys, and four girls and so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were they all born here in Washington, DC?
Loretta Carter: All of ’em born in Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were their names?
Loretta Carter: Uh, Dennis was the oldest. Joseph, Anna Mae, Louise, Loretta’s next. Then you have JB, then you have Raven, and then you have Faith.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you went to school, you started school here.
Loretta Carter: I started at Mott School, at Lucretia Mott, Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is the name?
Loretta Carter: Lucretia Mott School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Lucretia?
Loretta Carter: Mott. She was an abolitionist [laughter].
Oloye Adeyemon: And where was that located?
Loretta Carter: That was at Fourth and, uh, W Streets Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: And is it still standing today?
Loretta Carter: No, it’s not there. But there’s a new school there, Katie Lewis School is on the site where I was born. I was born under that same site that my school was on. Yes. They taught—Mott was on-was on the Fourth Street side. And so Mott became so old they tore it down. Then they tore all the houses down, house I was born in [unintelligible 04:15].
Oloye Adeyemon: Does the new school, it covered—
Loretta Carter: It covered.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the original site plus the additional houses.
Loretta Carter: It was on the original site where I was born.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: Katie Lewis School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And you went there throughout the elementary years?
Loretta Carter: Right. Elementary school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Were the schools segregated at that time?
Loretta Carter: Yes. We were segregated. In fact, we were so close into our area there were boundaries that we didn’t go, uh, beyond. And, uh, just like, um, Fourth Street was one boundary and Second Street was the other. Second Street there was a little white playground and white schools around, but we could not go to any of those schools. We were had our own little area and [crosstalk 04:53].
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were between Fourth and Second?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that would’ve been on the east and west?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was on the north and south of that?
Loretta Carter: Well, there was a reservoir—
Oloye Adeyemon: It was on the north?
Loretta Carter: On the north. And you have the, uh, pump house. That’s where the water’s pumped.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And so we go on the opposite side of the street [unintelligible 05:12].
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the southern boundary of that area?
Loretta Carter: Southern boundary of that area, um, well, it went all the way down to Florida Ave—Dunbar High School [unintelligible 05:23] that was around New Jersey Avenue. Uh, and that’s-that’s the cemetery.
Oloye Adeyemon: So somewhere around New Jersey was the southern boundary.
Loretta Carter: Right. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And did this area have a name that was [unintelligible 05:36]?
Loretta Carter: The neighborhood was—I was in was, uh, Le Droit Park, called Le Droit Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?
Loretta Carter: Uh, L-E, Le Droit, L-E-D-R-O-I-T, uh, Park. That was an area that the blacks lived in.
Oloye Adeyemon: That you lived in, uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what—
Loretta Carter: And Howard University is on the northwestern. I was raised—
Oloye Adeyemon: It was part of that section?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. I was raised at, you know, people—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you had said it we-went from Second to Fourth. Isn’t, uh, Howard at about Eleventh?
Loretta Carter: No. Howard goes all the way up to Fourth Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: It ends at Fourth.
Loretta Carter: Fourth Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did it always? Was it—
[Crosstalk 06:06]
Oloye Adeyemon: Did it go to Eleventh back then?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. It’s so big, it’s so big then.
Oloye Adeyemon: So would-would-would Howard have been included in that neighborhood?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All the professors and the children, we all went to school together.
Oloye Adeyemon: So maybe Second all the way over to Eleventh.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Includin’ Howard.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And at that time, the—how many high schools were there? Just Dunbar?
Loretta Carter: We had, uh, Dunbar—
Oloye Adeyemon: In your area [crosstalk 06:29].
Loretta Carter: Dunbar, Armstrong, and Cardoza. And Phelps was a vocation school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So this area that we’re speaking about, Fourth, three high schools and one-one technical high school [crosstalk 06:42].
Loretta Carter: Right. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, and the elementary school that you went to again was?
Loretta Carter: Lucretia Mott.
Oloye Adeyemon: Lucretia Mott.
Loretta Carter: And that was Fourth and W Streets Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: Fourth and W. This is all northwest section.
Loretta Carter: Northwest, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, at that time what grade did the elementary school go to?
Loretta Carter: Went up to the sixth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: There was no kindergarten?
Loretta Carter: Oh yeah. We started kindergarten.
Oloye Adeyemon: It did have a kindergarten.
Loretta Carter: We had a kindergarten. Wonderful teacher, wonderful kindergarten teacher. And it was durin’ the Depression.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: I’m a Depression, uh, child.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what year did you—you said-said sixth grade?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Went to sixth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what grade did you go to seven? What year did you go to the seventh grade?
Loretta Carter: I went into seventh grade, I’ve got to figure all the way back. It had to have been in, uh, it was in the ’30s. It have to have been in the ’30s.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you faced the double challenge of segregated—well, let me back up and not make any assumptions. Was it challenging to go to a segregated school? Were there special challenges?
Loretta Carter: Well, I don’t think you realize that you were bound in a certain area. Because everything was contained in your little community. And you did not know much about that until after you got to go and get to leave home and walk to the junior high school, walk to the high school. And this is when you notice that there were differences.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And there were different lines you couldn’t go across.
Oloye Adeyemon: Given that you’ve had experience as a parent, you’ve had experience as a teacher, uh, what would you say about your elementary education?
Loretta Carter: Well, I could say that our teachers gave the best of themselves to us. They concentrated on us because if they saw any worth in you, they were gonna make it come out. And they were very well qualified and very dedicated to us because they all lived in your community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So all your teachers were black.
Loretta Carter: Black. All [crosstalk 08:39].
Oloye Adeyemon: Were your principal and everyone?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Only time we saw a white person was when the superintendent of public schools might come by. But [unintelligible 08:45] 13. And they had two black superintendents over those divisions. And maybe at, uh, somewhere or another they would want the white superintendents might come around, but rarely did they come around.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And in terms of resources, books, and other supplies, equipment for labs, did you have the kind of equipment and books and things that the white schools did?
Loretta Carter: Oh no. It was very, very—I can remember, uh, in my first grade when there were no books at all. All we had was newsprint and we would write on the newsprint. And that’s all we had. For the—you know, we didn’t have, uh, books and things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: To read.
Loretta Carter: To read. Uh-huh. It was I can remember in the second grade we had some books. But early on in the first grade we just colored on newsprint. ’Cause that’s durin’ the Depression.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what were some of the special challenges that children faced durin’ the Depression? [Crosstalk 09:49].
Loretta Carter: Well they—it was hunger. Uh, it was, uh, there wasn’t, uh, a whole lot of money around at that time. And the clothing, you just didn’t have fancy clothes to wear. You know, you wore hand-me-downs. Everything was just like secondhand. You got everything just about secondhand.
And the, uh, it was food, clothing, and medical care. And a lot of the things that you needed you just didn’t get. Uh, you know, durin’ that period of time. Your mother was the doctor, the nurse, uh, everything else. And so it was—there were a lot of things that you just didn’t have and you-you didn’t know that you didn’t have ’cause every-everybody around you was very poor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: So, uh, it was-it was hard times.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were your parents able to find work?
Loretta Carter: Well, my father—my mother stayed with us. Uh, ’cause there were 12 youngsters all together. Only eight survived. My mother stayed at home with us. My father was the first black baker in the city.
Oloye Adeyemon: Baker?
Loretta Carter: Baker. He was a baker, trained through the Danish Baking School. And my grandmother was a private cook at the, uh, Henderson Castle, Senator Henderson. She was also a cook for General Pershing at—
Oloye Adeyemon: Senator Henderson was from what state?
Loretta Carter: Uh, I don’t remember the state. But I know that part of the castle is still there on Sixteenth Street, across from Meridian Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: And that was a real castle and my grandmother was there. And their children went with her and helped her cook.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your mother went with her?
Loretta Carter: No. That was my-that was my father’s mother.
Oloye Adeyemon: So—
Loretta Carter: Who was a cook, a special cook at the Henderson Castle.
Oloye Adeyemon: He was-he was—he became a baker?
Loretta Carter: He became a baker.
Oloye Adeyemon: As a child had he gone to the castle with her?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. As a child her whole family went to help serve. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did that cause him to have an interest in baking?
Loretta Carter: It—they saw that he had a gift. And so they put their money together and somehow or another they got him in the Danish Baking School.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say they, his parents?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. His parents and I don’t know whether the Henderson helped out or not. But he later on in life became a, uh, became a baker.
Oloye Adeyemon: You mentioned someone else she cooked for.
Loretta Carter: She cooked for General Pershing at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital. And my aunt Etta went with her everywhere. Seemed like the-the children helped them in their jobs.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did she live with your family?
Loretta Carter: My? No, she didn’t. She, well, she lived, you know, she lived with her own children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: And so and yeah, that was my grandmother and her children, my father.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So the income that you had coming in during that time was a result of him-him being able to find work as a baker.
Loretta Carter: Right. Right. And then, you know, uh, I was—well, he married my mother in the-in the ’20s. And so anyhow. Then we had our-our own home and then we were all born. From me on down were born at the house [unintelligible 12:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: When you say you had your own home, it was buying or renting?
Loretta Carter: Renting. And the last rent I think was $20 a month.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And it was funny about the, uh, durin’ that time, it was the Depression, it was hard times. And we always had plenty of bread and bakery and buns, bakery goods and buns and things like that. And I can remember, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Fringe benefits of the job.
Loretta Carter: Yes. And my-my father said, “I cannot pay my rent with-with bread and bakery goods. I must have money.” And he would quit. And they-the-the baker, the head baker, the owner, would come to the house, get down on his knees, and say, “Please come back.” He said, “I need you.”
Oloye Adeyemon: He was that good, huh?
Loretta Carter: He was that good.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what caught me was he—I-I heard you say he was trained by the Danish bakery?
Loretta Carter: Baker, Danish Baking School.
Oloye Adeyemon: But where did he actually work?
Loretta Carter: He worked at the Hellers and the Newlands, all of the big bakers, known bakeries. He worked for those-those companies.
Oloye Adeyemon: So he was able to receive money even durin’ that time?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes, he had [crosstalk 13:32].
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause they wanted him that badly.
Loretta Carter: Right. And but what happened, the funniest thing about it, is that even though there were times when he didn’t have work because he couldn’t, you know, they just couldn’t pay him and he couldn’t use it, the bakery goods, because we had to pay rent and other things. So anyhow. It was, um, it was-it was-it was quite hard. And it was a funny thing about it. There were other people around us who were, uh, less fortunate and they could get welfare. But because my daddy was trained and had some job, we couldn’t get the free foods and things.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say welfare, at that time that just meant a voucher to get food from the food bank.
Loretta Carter: Get food. Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I mean you had to stand in the food line to get food.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. You could go and you could get flour and you could get eggs and you could get, um, what else? Some fruit and whatnot. Because—
Oloye Adeyemon: As a result of the Depression, did any of the children have to work?
Loretta Carter: No. They were too young to work at that time. Uh, but we did little errands. Yeah. I-I’d do a little five cent job. I’d run errands and my brother did the papers and things like that. So but we worked in helpin’ other people. And my sister went to the Second Street where it was all white and Jewish and she would work—she’d work af-after school. Helpin’ this Jewish lady with her meals and washin’ dishes and things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. So right there at the boundary, well that’s actually a little beyond the boundary. So neighboring Fourth Street, the Fourth Street—
Loretta Carter: It was the Second Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Second Street area rather.
Loretta Carter: It was a white area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Ordering that so I guess we’re talking about to the east?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that right? So who was it that lived? Was it an immigrant community?
Loretta Carter: Well, it was—immigrant community, Jewish. And, uh, that’s where you’d go to get little odd jobs and things like that. And my sister went—
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were mostly—were they Eastern Europeans and southern Europeans in that area at that time?
Loretta Carter: No. I can remember the Jewish community and they would come around. They’d come and pick dandelions and ask us to help ’em too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who lived to the south of—
Loretta Carter: Well, I knew—
Oloye Adeyemon: - all the way down to the south?
Loretta Carter: Most of them were black. [Unintelligible 15:44].
Oloye Adeyemon: Beyond that. I mean not beyond your house, but I’m saying beyond it.
Loretta Carter: South. They were black. Mm-hmm. They were black.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you say the southern boundary of the neighborhood was?
Loretta Carter: It went all the way down to Armstrong and Dunbar and that was O and P. And then that area. In fact—
Oloye Adeyemon: I think you said, um, [crosstalk 16:02] New Jersey.
Loretta Carter: - we had blacks all the way down. Yeah. We had blacks all the way down southwest. Because I remember goin’ in those homes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So really then on the southern bord-border, you extended all the way down to the border of southwest.
Loretta Carter: [Unintelligible 16:12] all the way down to the river.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And that would’ve been the Potomac?
Loretta Carter: Potomac, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then to the north, who lived on the other side of the reservoir?
Loretta Carter: Oh, that was-that was all white.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what-what was their background?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well, I know there were Jewish stores in there and—
Oloye Adeyemon: To the north of [crosstalk 16:28]?
Loretta Carter: Yes. They were immigrants too, uh, because they all had accents. And I’m sure they were Jewish.
Oloye Adeyemon: What about on the other side of Howard to the west?
Loretta Carter: To the west there were blacks and then there—yeah. Mostly over that way, that’s U Street area, that was-that was black too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Beyond Eleventh Street.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. That was black too. Vermont Avenue and all along that, that was black.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: I think that was your first settlement of blacks when they first came to, you know, from different, uh, Virginia and other places durin’ the Civil War and slavery.
Oloye Adeyemon: They settled west of, uh, Howard?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Yeah. Yep.
Oloye Adeyemon: So was there anything that stands out about the elementary years? Particularly somethin’ that might’ve shaped you there.
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. Because durin’-durin’ my time in elementary school, you had Mrs. Mary McLeod, we had all the leaders to come and see you. They came—
Oloye Adeyemon: They came to your school?
Loretta Carter: Came to our school. We-we talked to them. They gave us a prize and we wanted to be like that. I said, “I’m gonna be like Mrs. Mary McCleod.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.
Loretta Carter: And so anyhow. There wasn’t anything that you—or any person that you didn’t see when you were a child.
Oloye Adeyemon: At the elementary school?
Loretta Carter: At the elementary school they were put that—that-that was your history.
Oloye Adeyemon: They came in to see you?
Loretta Carter: They came in to see you.
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause she was in Florida.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They came in to see me, they walked the aisles. And, uh, so anyhow, but this is what we got. We got a culture and the bein’ that Howard University since we were, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: So close.
Loretta Carter: - neighbors to Howard, first the students came down there from Howard and were teachin’ in music. And they worked with us and had us in plays and drama. We were just—and that’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. These were things that schools didn’t normally offer.
Loretta Carter: Right. But we-we learned how to speak, we learned how to stand, to sing, and to do all these kinds of things. Because we were in the mouth of Howard University and we got the benefit of the professors and their children bein’ in classes with us.
Oloye Adeyemon: So the-the children of the professors went to school with you.
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All of them were with us. And you had the Drew, Drew the, uh, famous doctor. He was at, uh, at Mott School. We have a lot of famous people who went through [unintelligible 18:27].
Oloye Adeyemon: He went to the school or his children did?
Loretta Carter: Drew, all of them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Drew went? Himself?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. All of them went to Mott School because that was a very famous school. Like it was attached to Howard University.
Oloye Adeyemon: How long—when-when was, uh, Mott School established?
Loretta Carter: Uh, Mott School was [unintelligible 18:45].
Oloye Adeyemon: Before 1930?
Loretta Carter: Uh, oh yes. Oh yeah. It had—yeah. It was, uh, an early school, one of the early schools. Because Le Droit Park was really the cream of the crop of the black people.
Oloye Adeyemon: In-in the DC area?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. That’s where your-where your leaders were in that area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you went on to junior high school, what school did you attend?
Loretta Carter: I started at Shaw Junior High School. And the Shaw Junior High School was overcrowded. That was one thing about the black schools, they were overcrowded and overcrowded [crosstalk 19:16].
Oloye Adeyemon: Your elementary school was [unintelligible 19:17]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, elementary school there were loads of children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now in the white schools, was the student ratio smaller?
Loretta Carter: It was much smaller.
Oloye Adeyemon: How-how-how much smaller would you say?
Loretta Carter: I really don’t know the statistics. But I know that-that we were all crowded in like sardines, you may as well say.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, in the elementary school years, you were—you didn’t have to walk far to school.
Loretta Carter: I went out of my back door right into the school yard.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, when you went to junior high school did any of the children have to walk a long distance?
Loretta Carter: I had to walk. Yes, we walked several blocks. I mean we walked [unintelligible 19:49] from Bryant Street to, um, to Rhode Island Avenue.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 19:54].
Loretta Carter: Rhode Island Avenue and Seventh.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s where Shaw was.
Loretta Carter: That’s where Shaw is sittin’ today.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yep. And the same Shaw that you attended is there today.
Loretta Carter: It’s there. It’s a senior citizens home now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: And the Shaw was, uh, rebuilt. They built another Shaw and that’s at, uh, on Rhode Island Avenue and Ninth, Ninth and Rhode Island Avenue Northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: So when you were walking to junior high school, you—some students walked further than others.
Loretta Carter: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: There—was there any, uh, school transportation for any of the students?
Loretta Carter: No, no. We walked everywhere.
Oloye Adeyemon: How about white students? Did they have school transportation?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well their schools were closer.
Oloye Adeyemon: Than their—
Loretta Carter: Than-than ours were. And to them. And but we had a long walk. We walked.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: Rain, snow, sleet, or hail we had to walk. And, uh, I didn’t really know anything about a bus or streetcar until later on.
Oloye Adeyemon: How-how-how was the, uh, condition of the junior high school?
Loretta Carter: Well, the junior high school was very intriguing, very—and fascinating. Because most of the children in junior high school came from various communities. Where at Mott it was the Mott community. Where at Shaw you had them comin’ from different areas because that was one of our few junior high schools that was like an academic high school. Where the cream of the crop, their children went there too.
So all of the schools that I attended, you really got a chance to-to be inspired by your classmates. ’Cause they were into music on the side. You know, they would take the 25 cent lessons and then I’d beg my mother. So I was able to get 25 cent lessons and things like that. But you were inspired. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you got to junior high school, were there certain subjects that began to attract your attention more than others?
Loretta Carter: Well, I didn’t stay at Shaw too long because Shaw was overcrowded. Then, uh, Garnet Patterson, that’s at Tenth and U, that’s where they [unintelligible 21:50] that area. So didn’t stay there too long. But then I went to Banneker because Banneker was bein’ built at the time to take the overflow. And that’s at, uh, Georgia Avenue and [crosstalk 22:02].
Oloye Adeyemon: Now you said where the—what did you say about what was at the, uh, site of the Civil War?
Loretta Carter: The Civil War memorial is at Tenth and U Streets.
Oloye Adeyemon: You said something about [unintelligible 22:12].
Loretta Carter: Garnet Patterson is directly across from there.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s what a junior high school?
Loretta Carter: That’s a-that’s a junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So did you—were you sayin’ you left Shaw and went to Garnet?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because of the—
Oloye Adeyemon: And then from Garnet to?
Loretta Carter: Went to Banneker.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: And I was one of the first class when first—Banneker first opened.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, Garnet and Shaw both existed at the same time.
Loretta Carter: That is correct. There were two black schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: And why did you go from Shaw to Garnet?
Loretta Carter: Because of the overcrowdin’. They were—
Oloye Adeyemon: Garnet wasn’t as crowded.
Loretta Carter: That-that’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. You were close enough.
Loretta Carter: And then Banneker was bein’ built for the overflow. Yeah. And Pearl Bailey’s, uh, mother went to Garnet Patterson, went to high school. So that was the hub of U Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: That was the hub of our black life and our black history and all that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: In Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when you went to Banneker?
Loretta Carter: Banneker was very excitin’. It was a brand-new school. Uh, Mrs. Walker was the principal. Your teachers were very outgoing, very, very special. Uh, somehow or another I became the pet of many of my teachers. And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Why?
Loretta Carter: I-I don’t know. They fell in love with me [unintelligible 23:15] because I was very apt, you know, and-and very good in my studies. And so they took a liking to me and I took a liking to them. And they had me in plays and whatnot. And they taught us dancin’ and singin’ and that kind of thing. And I think that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Again, this is partly because of Howard’s influence.
Loretta Carter: That’s Howard’s influence and whatnot. And so it was-it was—’cause we right in the mouth of Howard at Banneker. And now it’s a senior high school, but it was junior high school when it first opened. But we right in the mouth of Howard. And, uh, I think the teachers were just-just so unusual. And then you were getting specialized, uh, teachers, in you know math, science, and music, and whatnot. We had a lot of plays, operettas, and things like that.
So I was always chosen to be in it. And I loved to dance and that’s where I got my first dancin’ and I learned tap dancin’. And then I was able to dance for Ms. Eleanor Roosevelt on Howard Theater stage and at Lincoln Theater stage.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that?
Loretta Carter: That was in the ’40s.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really? So—
Loretta Carter: And this is for the March of Dimes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you would’ve been? What [unintelligible 24:22]?
Loretta Carter: I-I stayed at the—I left—
Oloye Adeyemon: You-you were out of-out of, uh, junior high [unintelligible 24:26]?
Loretta Carter: I was still in junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: You were still in junior high school.
Loretta Carter: Still in junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you had that opportunity to—
Loretta Carter: I had opportunity.
Oloye Adeyemon: So from there you went to what high school?
Loretta Carter: That’s where I went to Armstrong Senior High School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Armstrong. And where was Armstrong located?
Loretta Carter: The Armstrong was First and O Streets. And that was a long walk from home. That was a long walk.
Oloye Adeyemon: Longer than junior high?
Loretta Carter: Oh yes. Oh yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: How many blocks?
Loretta Carter: Oh, I’m tellin’ you it took me about a half hour.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had to go all the way from—
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - Fourth Street.
Loretta Carter: From Bryant Street, right. All the way down to uh, Armstrong. It was a long walk. Sometimes you’ll see my older sister went with me for a while. When she graduated, I had to get there by myself. And it was a long, lonesome road goin’ to and from high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what—it’s—now the Armstrong that you went to is still there?
Loretta Carter: The buildin’ is there, but it’s not. It’s closed and it possibly—it’s a historic buildin’ because Booker T. Washington delivered the speech when the school first opened in the early 1900s. And it’s on a historic [crosstalk 25:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: Late 1800s or early 1900s?
Loretta Carter: It’s first part of the 1900s. And so it’s a historic landmark. And—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where is Armstrong today? [Unintelligible 25:43].
Loretta Carter: It’s still the—there there is no new Armstrong.
Oloye Adeyemon: There is not an Armstrong senior high school.
Loretta Carter: No. Our technical school closed that. That’s where all your architects and engineers got their, uh, degrees and went on to Howard University.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Loretta Carter: The things, if you check around the country, the things architects came from Armstrong. And music.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: That was a music, uh, school also. [Unintelligible 26:05] team. Lillian Evanti, our famous opera singer who went abroad, she—her father was the principal of Armstrong.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was his name?
Loretta Carter: Um, Lillian Evanti, the famous opera.
Oloye Adeyemon: So by the time you got there, uh, had you decided what career you wanted to go into?
Loretta Carter: No. I—well, I really wanted to be a nurse. Because nursin’ was in my family. So any—
Oloye Adeyemon: Which of your parents [unintelligible 26:31]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, well my aunts were nurses.
Oloye Adeyemon: On your mother’s or father’s side?
Loretta Carter: My father’s side. And one, um, J. Edgar Hoover, you’ve heard of him, um, Sam Rayburn, you’ve heard of him. My-my people, my aunts, worked for Sam Rayburn. Lyndon Johnson.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:50].
Loretta Carter: Different people.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 26:52].
Loretta Carter: Uh, yes. But my aunt, the oldest aunt, was not a [unintelligible 26:55]. She—when she was over in Alexandria, Virginia as a child, they had a white doctor. And he would come through if they was sick and she would sit there right with this doctor. This is Aunt Etta Fossie Carter Weaver. She would sit there with the doctor. And she said, “I wanna be a doctor.” Now, she was young.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: So anyhow. She was so intrigued by medicine the doctor said, “Well, I’ll see what I can do.” And when they moved from Gum Springs, Alexandria, Fairfax, whatever they call it, over to DC she began to pursue this. It was in her to be a nurse and whatnot. So she-she was a, uh, cook, um, um, a maid. She was everything that they could be. Had her own business, had her own [unintelligible 27:50] tax and whatnot. But she still kept goin’ with her medicine.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 27:55] taxes.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. She had some tax [unintelligible 27:57] license around here somewhere. So anyhow, um, she got into, uh, Garfield. That’s right there in [unintelligible 28:07] and Florida Avenue. That’s Garfield, where the famous Garfield Hospital. So she was able to go to that hospital and to work. And then she began to work for the doctors there.
And she got into the heart, workin’ with the heart doctors and the special doctors. And the foot, the-the baseball players. Uh, J. Edgar Hoover and all these other people, she was able to, uh, work with the medical doctors on these families. On the families of Washington, DC.
And her case was very, um, unusual. Because, uh, their records of what she did and who she worked with, she was the first black nurse at the doctor’s hospital, [unintelligible 28:54] all white. And so anyhow. The-the people at the hospital said, “Oh, Miss, uh, you have to come in the back door.” And her physician came along and said, “No. This is my nurse. She is my nurse. She comes in the front door.”
So that’s how she was so determined to be—get into medicine, the nursing. She was able to practice with the doctors who were the specialists, heart specialists in the city. And in her later years, uh, when General Eisenhower lay sick unto death at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, uh, she said—she told me, she said, “I-I’m very, very, very, uh, upset because they’re allowing my general to-to die because they’re not givin’ him nourishment.”
And she is—was a young girl when she met General Eisenhower at Walter Reed when he was visitin’ General Pershing. So anyhow. She-she-she-she said, “What am I to do?” I had her to call her minister, Reverend Wheeler at, uh, Vermont Avenue Baptist Church. And he said, “Well, if-if you wanted to call, call Walter Reed.”
So I set it up and called Walter Reed. So she talked with one of the nurses there and she told ’em, she said, “Here are my credentials, here’s my name. I worked for these doctors.” So they said, “What would you have us to do for the general?” She said, “You’ve gotta give him nourishment. You’ve gotta give him an eggnog mix.” So she—they said, “Well, we’ll check it out.” So the—this person called my aunt back and I got [unintelligible 30:32].
Oloye Adeyemon: You have records? You have documentation?
Loretta Carter: Yes. This-this, uh, person called her back and said, “Ms. Weaver, we’re gonna try it.” Because evidently it checked out. Because she was still in the phone book, even though she’s way up in age, as a nurse. So anyhow they tried it. And when he died, I was in her house with her because I had to help nurse her. Uh, they said, “Ms. Weaver, uh, your-your general is gone. He’s dead. But you extended his life six weeks.”
And later on one of these persons who was with General Eisenhower durin’ this ordeal [unintelligible 31:13] wrote my aunt a Christmas card. And she said, “Ms. Weaver, tell your story.” She said, “Because nobody will believe it, you have to tell it.” But we never did tell the story. We never did get to tell the story. My aunt never got to tell her story.
But I could never find that Christmas card when my aunt died. I could never find it. And I can see it. The lady had written in red. She said, “Ms. Weaver, if you don’t tell your story.” So I’m tellin’ the story that I experienced with my aunt. And it was because of her dedication to medicine, dedication to her country, and to General Eisenhower that she had met as a-as a youngster at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital, that, uh, she was concerned enough to call.
And, uh, told ’em [unintelligible 32:04]. She said, “You know, I’ve nursed all these years. We didn’t use drugs and things like that. We used nourishment.” And I’ve got her—I’ve got two of her medical nursin’ books.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had good reason to be inspired to go into nursing.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because of the family.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Loretta Carter: [Unintelligible 32:24].
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you go into nursing?
Loretta Carter: No, I didn’t. I [laughter] and then home economics. That was the other side. I think because cookin’ and my father [unintelligible 32:31] and cookin’ my mother, my father taught my mother how to cook and to bake. And I didn’t get into that, but it was Ms. Holland at Armstrong Senior High School who said, “You are going to school. You are going to Miner Teachers College. You’re gonna be a teacher.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Who was this?
Loretta Carter: Mrs. Holland, one of my home room teachers at Armstrong Senior High School. And I was in her class and I had written this I guess it was a PhD dissertation. And she decided because of that report that I turned in for my homework that I was teacher material. And that she was gonna make sure I got to Armstrong, I got to Miner Teachers College.
So she called her mother, intercepted, and everything, and got me in to—uh, went on to Miner Teachers College. But my heart, soul, and mind was still in the nursing and or home economics. But I just went on through Miner, hittin’ and missin’, but somehow or another I turned out all right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you went to, uh, came out of Teachers College, um, did you teach?
Loretta Carter: I taught briefly with the, uh, Georgetown Children’s House. These were children who needed help whose parents had to work. They were white people. Uh, they were white children.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had white students.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what year was that?
Loretta Carter: And this was in the ’49. And it was segregation then. And this-this, uh, director of this, uh, this settlement house, that’s what we used to call ’em where they kept children while their parents worked, uh, had been in the Navy. Very liberal kind of person. And I was the first black teacher—
Oloye Adeyemon: To teach there.
Loretta Carter: - to teach there. And it was a very difficult time. It was a segregation was just hittin’ you all around. And so anyhow, I’d have to go to school and get my children ’cause they were in school half day. They were in kindergarten and I’d go pick ’em up.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year we talkin’ about?
Loretta Carter: This is 1949.
Oloye Adeyemon: Let me back up. When did you graduate from high school?
Loretta Carter: I graduated from high school in ’45 and Miner Teachers College in ’49.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then you went—came out of teachers college, you already had children?
Loretta Carter: No, no. I didn’t have children until—no. These were the children that I taught.
Oloye Adeyemon: The children that you taught.
Loretta Carter: I taught them at the Georgetown Children’s House in Georgetown, which was segregated.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now this was a private school, in other words, where their parents put them.
Loretta Carter: This was a settlement house, yeah. It was like a community chest. You know? Like United Way where they have centers for children.
Oloye Adeyemon: But these children were actually going to school during the day.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They went to school part-time and then I’d go at noon to pick ’em up and bring ’em back to the settlement house for day—you know, to take care of them while their parents were workin’. And I was teachin’ them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you were teaching them in addition to the public-school education they were getting. They had left school.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when they would get out of school, you would work with them after school.
Loretta Carter: That’s work with them after school.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Loretta Carter: I’d get-I’d get-I’d [unintelligible 35:30].
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now after doing that for how long did you—
Loretta Carter: I stayed there until about ’51 I think.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then you just raised your family?
Loretta Carter: And then I went on into government and then got married in 1952. Then started a family in ’54 and then went on from there. And then I—
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what branch of the government?
Loretta Carter: National Security Agency.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you do there?
Loretta Carter: Uh, security work.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Loretta Carter: Yes. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Loretta Carter: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were there for a year before you started your family?
Loretta Carter: I was there until my first son was born. Uh, first ’54 and ’59 was my first [crosstalk 36:07].
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. So you worked there a few years.
Loretta Carter: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then I decided after I had a child I wanted to go back to teaching. So I went back through the-through the teaching experience and—
Oloye Adeyemon: What year would that have been?
Loretta Carter: That was in ’60. And I went back for the school and got, you know, went and practice teachin’ all over again.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Loretta Carter: So I can go into public school teaching.
Oloye Adeyemon: What differences did you notice when you went back into the classroom in the ’60s from the way that teaching had been before?
Loretta Carter: Well, it was—well, when I went in to the first school was [unintelligible 36:44] and that was all, um, it was segregated. Because a lot of the whites had left the city and so you’re still teachin’ all black children in the city. Now, let me go back to Georgetown Children’s House.
It was a strange thing that occurred one day when I went to pick up the children. Uh, the teacher—now these were white children goin’ to a white school and comin’ back to this daycare. And, uh, settlement house they used to call it. And this white teacher said, “Uh, Ms. Carter, will you hold my class for me?” And that was unusual for a white teacher to ask a black teacher to hold her students.
So I-I—uh, she had to do somethin’ so I sat there and played a few nursery rhymes and sang and played with the children. And it was the strangest feelin’ because you knew segregation. You knew everything was segregated. And so anyhow, I was this black woman, the first black woman in the—in a white settlement house. And I guess the first black woman over in Georgetown, which was exclusive part of, to go into a school and sit down and you know a teacher asked me that. Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when-when we get to ’60, are there changes that you notice in what is—how teachers are teaching and in—just in the education period? With the children, parents.
Loretta Carter: Well, the teachers were still very dedicated. Because, uh, this, um, leavin’ the city. You know, this flux, everybody started movin’ out of the city and when the whites start goin’ and the blacks start goin’ and whatnot. But in-in our area it was predominantly black. You know? The-the-the teachers were black, the students were black, and whatnot. So you didn’t-you didn’t see a whole lot of difference. But the quality of education, educators, at that time was tops. And see, people—
Oloye Adeyemon: How about the students? And was the parent involvement the same?
Loretta Carter: Parent involvement was outstanding.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it was-it was outstanding as it had been early on.
Loretta Carter: Yes. Because what happens now, you know parents always love their children, love their teachers, and whatnot. It was a love for the educator because they wanted their children to achieve. Because many of them had not been able to go beyond high school or junior high school, you know, my age kinda.
So they were intrigued by the profession and the doctors and lawyers. Everybody. And they lived in the community with you so there was a feelin’ of, you know, I-I’m gonna do the best that I can. And then you had teachers who are pushin’ you-you to the length, to as—if they saw anything in you, they were gonna push you all the way up and-and whatnot.
And so this was instilled through your Miner Teachers College and other educational institution, like Howard University. And so it was just I think the best teaching system on the Eastern Coast of the United States. Because it was [unintelligible 39:38] testin’. You had to go—you had to pass that test. It was a strict, hard test. You had to read and speak and do everything. You could go in an empty room, but you had to teach. So the quality of the education was outstanding among our black students.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your children did not suffer any of the prejudice and things that might’ve been suffered by some of the children—
Loretta Carter: Oh yeah. Now, my children—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that went into the white school. Well, were integrating into white schools. Or did they?
Loretta Carter: Yes. Yes, there was a big difference when my children came along. My son was born in ’60 and my daughter ’65, there was a big, big difference.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the difference?
Loretta Carter: That difference was when they threw you in the pot with everybody else, a lot of the-the-the-the—it was just that the teachers, many of the white teachers, could not understand the black culture. And they didn’t seem to reach out to understand. They were not in the black community with you, you see. They lived on the outskirts in other sections.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your children didn’t get the same encouragement from the teachers [crosstalk 40:43]?
Loretta Carter: Uh, no, no, no. They could feel it. You could feel it. ’Cause I was in the school a lot with my children.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you saw it.
Loretta Carter: I was there, I felt it, I worked along with the teacher, I did a lot of things to support the school as a parent.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was Garfield, uh, Elementary School one of the elementary schools in that neighborhood that you spoke [crosstalk 41:00]?
Loretta Carter: No, no. Garfield was out in-in the other—the area. This—we were in the northwest area. Garfield was, uh, on the east side.
Oloye Adeyemon: Southeast?
Loretta Carter: Uh, it was southeast or northeast. I think it was north. [Unintelligible 41:14].
Oloye Adeyemon: So children in the Bolling case would not have been going to school in your area?
Loretta Carter: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would the conditions that they went through be different than the ones that you experienced?
Loretta Carter: Yeah. They were-they were much different. Because I understand that the-that area, that southeast area, I think it was southeast, that area had—it was just as different as our northwest, far northwest, area.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Loretta Carter: Because the-the city was divided like into four different camps.
Oloye Adeyemon: Tell me about, um, the reading program that you had. We have about a minute left.
Loretta Carter: Yeah. Okay. Mrs., uh, McNamara, Mrs. Robert S. McNamara, uh, was a volunteer tutor. We were all in the Urban Service Corps, which was a volunteer program in the public school that brought in people, uh, from all walks of life. Mainly cabinet wives durin’ that time made sure that they did some volunteer service.
And that is how Mrs. Robert S. McNamara was a volunteer in the public schools. And her [unintelligible 42:20] uh, wanted her book, her child’s book. So she-she got with the DC Citizens For Better Public Education, and that is how Reading is Fundamental started in Washington, DC, in October of 1966. It’s now a national program throughout the United States and the territories.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what—and it-and it-and it helps to encourage children to—
Loretta Carter: What we do is reading is fundamental and reading. Uh, they get free books. Each year we give each child free books. This year we served about 34,000.
Oloye Adeyemon: Here in Washington?
Loretta Carter: In Washington, DC.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, I understand that you were the—the Washington chapter was the first chapter in the country?
Loretta Carter: This is original chapter in the United States and territories.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the national chapter is in Washington—
Loretta Carter: Is also.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but because of the history behind the Washington chapter—
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: ¬- you still exist as a separate chapter.
Loretta Carter: That’s right. That’s right And we have kept it goin’ because our motto—
Oloye Adeyemon: You’re the head of it aren’t you?
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Of the Washington [crosstalk 43:12].
Loretta Carter: The DC chapter. And our motto has been reading the road to freedom, from Fred Douglass. That’s why we have struggled so much and so long to encourage reading. Because reading is the road to freedom for our children.
Oloye Adeyemon: So how do you fund the program?
Loretta Carter: It’s federally funded, part federal and part, uh, local funds. We have to raise the money. We get 75 percent at the beginnin’ and we didn’t get the money from the federal government. But now it’s 75, uh, 75 percent and 25 percent. And we raise [unintelligible 43:43].
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you very much.
Loretta Carter: Well thank you.
Oloye Adeyemon: For your help. You’ve-you’ve contributed a lot. Because, uh, in order to understand the Bolling versus Sharpe case, uh, we need to understand, uh, education in DC in general.
Loretta Carter: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: You’ve helped us to understand that [crosstalk 44:00].
Loretta Carter: And the struggle continues. Reading, reading, reading. We have to read.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Loretta Carter: That’s the key to life.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Loretta Carter: You’re welcome.
Tags
- brown v. board of education national historical park
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