What We Do

• RSS feed
• 

Have you ever wondered about National Park Service jobs? From studying wildlife, operating wastewater treatment plants, and timing the next Old Faithful geyser eruption, there are many different types of positions that help preserve resources in Yellowstone for current and future generations. Join us each week as we talk with Yellowstone employees about their experiences working for the world’s first national park and offer tips for you to get involved with the NPS.

Episodes

Sort By Latest

• Sort By Oldest

Season 1

May 22, 2024

10. Becky Wyman, Concessions Management Specialist

Transcript

Transcript

Brett Raeburn: From Yellowstone National Park. This is what we do. I'm Brett Raeburn.

Miles Barger: I'm Myles Barger.

Brett Raeburn: So I have a quick question for you before we get started on this week's episode. Have you ever hiked with a llama before?

Miles Barger: I have not hiked with a llama before.

Brett Raeburn: Is that because you don't want to, or is that because you've never had the opportunity?

Miles Barger: I think it'd be awesome. I've never had the opportunity. I've definitely seen them around at other parks, but, although I've always wanted a trail goat, you know that’s a thing? Some people hike with trail goats. Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: Hold on. So what? Explain this really quickly we get started.

Miles Barger: I've seen people in, like, national forests, they'll have. You usually need at least two because they’re herd animals and they can carry up to like 50 pounds each. So you can use them as kind of mini pack animals, but you don't have to put them on a string, and they just gather at night anyway.

Brett Raeburn: What a chick magnet that would be. The, I'd be a conversation starter right there. Well, so my trivia question today doesn't have to do with goats. It does have to do with llamas. So, do you know how many llama outfitters currently have contracts to do business in Yellowstone National Park?

Miles Barger: I do not, I will guess 11.

Brett Raeburn: It's actually three, so. Oh, so you you had a string of doing really well on these trivia questions that might have come to an end here. So there are three outfitters currently that that would let you go hiking with a llama. So it's possible maybe, maybe a bucket list item here. Our guest this morning as someone who probably would have known the answer to that question.

Brett Raeburn: So she's Becky Wyman, a concessions management specialist here at Yellowstone National Park. Becky, have you ever hiked with a llama?

Becky Wyman: I have not.

Brett Raeburn: No. So it sounds like we need, like, a work trip.

Becky Wyman: I think so.

Brett Raeburn: To come out to come out this summer because I love nothing more than hiking and not carrying my own stuff.

Becky Wyman: That's quite nice.

Brett Raeburn: That sounds awesome. well, it's awesome having you here today. So we didn't invite you here to just talk about goats and llamas exclusively, although, you know, if they come up more, that's. I'm totally fine with that. we invite you here because you have a super important job in the Park Service that most visitors would know nothing about.

Brett Raeburn: You work a lot behind the scenes. and before we get into the details about what you do, as a concessions management specialist, I actually could you give us, like, an overview of what, what concessionaires and what CUAs, commercial use authorization holders. Like what? What are all those things? Because a lot of listeners probably just have no clue what that is.

Becky Wyman: So our office oversees all of the commercial, operators in the park. we have category one, two and three contracts, plus our commercial use authorization, program. the category one contracts include our large concessionaires. currently Xanterra, Yellowstone General Stores. They do the lodging and, retail, type of operations in the park.

Becky Wyman: We also have our, service stations. Our CUA program oversees or has our fishing guides, photo tours, environmental education tours, that sort of, scope. And then we have our category two and three contracts, which include our, over snow operators in winter. We have a bear spray rental. We have, stock outfitters, that do day and overnight trips in the park.

Becky Wyman: That include our llamas, as well as a, ski camp in winter that is located at Canyon.

Brett Raeburn: Awesome. So. So the park service doesn't actually have, like, we don't run hotels or things like that.

Becky Wyman: That is correct. We we have contracts that allow other operators to run those, and we oversee those contracts.

Brett Raeburn: That is a lot there. How many, how many are there? Just like a rough ballpark. it's always changing, right? The number.

Becky Wyman: Well, all of our contracts pretty much stay the same. we have the three, large category one contracts. like I said, the the hotels and retail, retail, general stores and our service stations. we have 38 stock contracts that include the three llamas. We have 23 over snow contracts and one bear spray rental. and then I believe the number of CUAs exceeds 400.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, that that's a lot. That's a lot that you're you're overseeing, the concessions office. okay. Well. Thank you. Yeah. I just thought that would be a good overview of, like what that actually...what your job entails before we kind of dive into the to the background, and then and then we'll kind of come back to a typical day, of what it's like working as a concessions management specialist.

Brett Raeburn: so do you mind telling us a little bit about where and when you got your start in the National Park Service?

Becky Wyman: So I came to Yellowstone in 1998. I was a bright eyed, bushy tailed fisheries technician. So I started my career with the Park Service at Lake in Yellowstone, and I have never left.

Brett Raeburn: So it hooked you.

Becky Wyman: It hooked me.

Miles Barger: No pun intended.

Brett Raeburn: Anyway, anyone can get it. so. And how do you hear about that job?

Becky Wyman: I think I heard about it through USA jobs.

Brett Raeburn: That's awesome. Yeah, we have, and for those of you who don't know who are listening to this and don't know what USA jobs is, we we do have an intro episode that kind of explains that as well as some of the other jargon that that we might talk about here. So just refer back to that. If you have any questions.

Brett Raeburn: so so you saw it on USA jobs, you applied and you got it. And, and the rest is history.

Becky Wyman: And I drove my car out from South Carolina and I've never left. Wow.

Brett Raeburn: Is it okay? So you're from South Carolina So you're an East coaster?

Becky Wyman: I am, okay.

Brett Raeburn: That's me too. And then? Then you found the mountains, and.

Becky Wyman: And then I found the mountains.

Brett Raeburn: Gotcha. So, so so how did you get from that job? Which is very different from what you do now. What was that transition like?

Becky Wyman: It is. So I worked, for fisheries for three years. Then I moved to the bison office to, follow my husband up to mammoth. and then I just became a flexible park employee and did a variety of administrative roles. I was, the natural resource admin assistant for the center of Resources. which led me to a detail with the.

Becky Wyman: At the time, it was the, planning, compliance and landscape architecture division. So I was their admin assistant where I made connections with people in that office that eventually would lead to my transitioning over to the Commercial Services division. in, in an administrative role. And then I just worked my way up. I was the, I oversaw the commercial use authorization program for several years before I got my current job overseeing the category two and three contracts.

Brett Raeburn: Wow. So you've done a little bit of it.

Becky Wyman: I'm a jack of all trades.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, that's. That's awesome. That's really cool.

Miles Barger: I feel like that's, a theme across these episodes. We've either had, like, people who decide this park is for me, and then you make it work within that park. Or some people say, this is my job path that I want to follow and go wherever they need to go to make that happen. Yeah. Or I guess the third type, which is they just want to work in as many parks as possible.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah.

Miles Barger: But yeah, there's a lot of different ways you can spin an NPS career, I think.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah. So you've been here and you've been at Yellowstone. I don't want to do the quick math, what did you say 98?

Becky Wyman: 25 years? Okay. And, you know, and I am in a dual career, family. So the fact that my husband also works for Yellowstone National Park has contributed to me being here for as long as I have. Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: So how many, like, dinner table conversations are just focused on on Yellowstone? Or are you guys just like no, too much Yellowstone, we’ve got to talk about something else?

Becky Wyman: I live vicariously through his job. He's got a much more interesting job than mine.

Brett Raeburn: So what does he do?

Becky Wyman: He's bear management.

Brett Raeburn: Okay. Okay. So that. Well, I think there's there's lots of interesting things in both of those. As in both of those jobs. so what is a typical day in your job look like? Is there a typical day?

Becky Wyman: and typically I'm in the office on the computer, answering phone calls and emails. it's a lot of paper pushing, I guess you could call it. but part of that is, just communicating with our concessionaires. we review annual financial reports, preparing annual overall ratings, which I kind of liken that to a report card on how they're doing with their contracts.

Brett Raeburn: Do you use a red pen?

Becky Wyman: I do not.

Becky Wyman: I have one in my hand, but, that's.

Brett Raeburn: You look like you're good at writing, like F.

Becky Wyman: Yes. no. And we have very good concessionaires. A++. we review insurance, risk management plans, all things that are outlined in their contracts. Part of my job, requires periodic evaluations of the concessionaires. And this, lets us get out into the park to monitor, how they're doing, making sure they're meeting service standards as outlined in their operating plans, making sure they're providing a quality visitor service, making sure the facilities are well-maintained, and just ensuring the safety of the visitor and their employees.

Becky Wyman: the part that I like most is I occasionally get to go out on horseback rides, ride on snowmobiles, or even take a ski trip every once in a while. So nice. That's what gets me out in the park. So that's what I like.

Brett Raeburn: So you're kind of. Are you doing, like, the Undercover boss type of situation where you're, like, kind of hiding in the ranks of visitors?

Becky Wyman: We may entail secret shoppers, but usually they know who I am. So, yeah.

Brett Raeburn: If you’ve been here 25 years.

Becky Wyman: Years. It's hard to be secret.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, well, that sounds like a really. Yeah, that's a really interesting part of that is getting to test out this different, different ways of seeing the park. so that was a lot of different, functions and tasks that you have. So what do you think is the most important one to be successful at your job?

Becky Wyman: I think communication skills and establishing relationships is the most important part of my job.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, because you're talking with.

Becky Wyman: A variety of people from a variety of backgrounds, right? Many of which I don't always relate to.

Brett Raeburn: Sure.

Becky Wyman: So being flexible and, and just patient is very, a really good thing to keep in mind.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's definitely an important, important thing.

Miles Barger: Yeah. I feel like, this past winter, we've seen a lot of that because we've had such crazy snow conditions, by which I mean, until later in the winter, hardly any snow. So I've, I've been on some of those calls and just seeing the, like, constant communication with people and trying to make everything work as best we can for them and for our visitors and all of that.

Miles Barger: I've been it's given me a good insight into how much communication there is with all these businesses. And and they, of course, have their own interests that are, that they share interests with the Park Service, but they're also businesses. So they have very different things that they have to think about in terms of their long term.

Becky Wyman: And Yellowstone has had a few hits lately with the flood. Yeah. The lack of snowfall. just it's impacted different people in different ways the last few years. Yeah.

Miles Barger: Can be challenging to operate businesses on a volcano with crazy weather and and, you know, you're at the whims of Mother Nature.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think you kind of already touched on this, but your is your favorite part of the job, getting to go out on the snowmobile trips and pack trips and llama trips.

Becky Wyman: Anytime I can get out of the office is a good day. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, if and if that includes the backcountry, it's even better.

Brett Raeburn: So you actually get to go on like a backcountry camping trip, like overnight. Do you do overnighters?

Becky Wyman: I haven't done overnighters with the concessionaires, but I have gone out with our backcountry rangers to do stock evaluations in the summer. So I've gotten to go to Beckler, which I had never been to until that. Yeah. last summer I got to go to Thorofare.

Brett Raeburn: Some of the more remote places are areas of the park.

Miles Barger: Yes, both places I would like to go and haven't made it yet, so that's pretty awesome.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, that sounds awesome. And and I guess on the flip side of that, what's the toughest part of your job?

Becky Wyman: I mean, I think the toughest part of my job is just keeping up with everything. we're even though Yellowstone is closed in the spring and fall, we're always preparing for the next season, and so we never get to take a break. And if you fall behind in the management of these contracts, the paperwork, it's it's hard to catch up.

Becky Wyman: So just staying organized and, and on top of things is, is the hard part.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah I always I want someone to invent like this pause button. Yeah. You can just hit. No emails will come in and like you can just go like catch up and then you can hit play again and then you'll be. But I haven't found that yet.

Miles Barger: So some of our jobs have, sort of a pause button. They have the furlough.

Brett Raeburn: I need a life furlough.

Miles Barger: They're not allowed to like, email for like two weeks or a month. But yeah, you're right. What about the regulations? Are they changing pretty often or do they stay fairly consistent?

Becky Wyman: I think they're staying pretty constant, but there are some tweaks that they throw at us every once in a while. Yeah. So we have to stay on top of those.

Miles Barger: Yeah. I was wondering that continuing education.

Becky Wyman: Yes. There's definitely continuing education aspect.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah for sure. so, you know, even with those difficulties of, of, you know, just, a lot of work coming at you, you've obviously done what you could to stay in the National Park Service and in Yellowstone National Park specifically. So why, why, why the National Park Service? You know what? What's kept you around?

Becky Wyman: I think just working for an agency whose mission is to preserve our natural and cultural resources, since that is my background and I grew up, my family took trips to the Great Smokies. Shenandoah. and so it's just been part of who I was prior to the Park Service. And so it just made sense when I landed here that I would stay here.

Brett Raeburn: I guess it's safe to bet that you hadn't snowmobiled in South Carolina.

Becky Wyman: I had not. There was many firsts out here.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, that's that's one of the cool things about this place is there's there's always a new experience kind of right around the corner that that keeps you, keeps you motivated, right?

Miles Barger: Yeah. Yellowstone just gets some people and you just can't leave.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah, literally you can't. They don’t let you.

Miles Barger: To come back. Yeah. Literally. They won’t let you.

Brett Raeburn: So would would you say that there's a defining moment in your career.

Becky Wyman: You know, I having been here, this is my first and only park. And, I think meeting my husband here and knowing that he wanted to stay here kind of defined my path. And so then I just had to redefine what my goals and ambitions were and find my place. Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: So yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, that makes that makes sense. Do you guys, do you guys spend time in the park on the weekends and, and that or are you guys we.

Becky Wyman: Used to do that a lot more. Yeah. Now we have two teenagers. So it keeps you pretty busy. Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: Volleyball games...

Becky Wyman: Volleyball games and basketball games. you know, that's the challenging part. Living in a remote area is is that aspect of it.

Brett Raeburn: So can you kind of touch on that really quickly. Like that's an interesting perspective. Raising a family. Yeah. in a, in a remote location like this.

Becky Wyman: Yellowstone has been a fabulous place to raise kids. especially if you like the outdoors. But with that comes some sacrifices. We’re an hour away from the nearest town, like big town for, some recreational activities. But, you just kind of have to roll with the punches. And if that's what you want to be involved with.

Becky Wyman: you do it. We we used to have them in ski school at Bridger Bowl every weekend, and we drive the hour and a half up there every Sunday. soccer was in Livingston, which is an hour away. we had basketball tournaments and all of that, but but we also threw in family trips, hiking, backpacking, fishing, rafting.

Becky Wyman: I mean, you've got it all here. It's just you have to. I mean, we're an hour away from the closest vet for your pets, so, it takes a special person to live here. But if you love the outdoors, I think this is. This is a great place to be.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah, that was the biggest...Miles, you’ve lived on the East Coast, too. So, like, that was the biggest adjustment for me is just how, like, no one bats an eye when they're driving an hour and a half somewhere that's like nothing to them. And I'm like, whoa, that's like that's very far to me. When I first came here, that was like a weekend trip.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, was an hour and a half. And so doing that just to go to the store is definitely an adjustment.

Becky Wyman: And I think, you know, like all of the parents that I, that I know and have grown and grown up with here, we all pitch in, we have daycare, we have preschool, we have grade school. and we all just probably have to do more here to be involved than you would on the East Coast or in larger metropolitan areas.

Becky Wyman: But it's, it creates that community as well.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. You probably don't find community like this in a lot of places. I mean, this is pretty special.

Becky Wyman: It is pretty special.

Brett Raeburn: that that just can't happen otherwise because because people are off doing their own thing, driving all over the place.

Miles Barger: Yeah. There's nowhere there's no one else to do stuff for you here. Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: You kind of have to hang out.

Miles Barger: Like, my son has been in preschool the best two years, and I've been on the board because it's like only so many of us have a kid in preschool.

Becky Wyman: And I've been there, done that.

Miles Barger: Yeah, I've heard, but lots of people here told me that when I was moving here, they were like, well, you'll be involved in a lot of things because you have to be. And also everyone will try to recruit your kid for everything because they're a a precious commodity. They are they're a limited supply.

Becky Wyman: We need more kids. Yes.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. No. So so getting back to your your job, so the Park Service mission is to, like you alluded, to preserve, the natural and cultural resources for the enjoyment, education and inspiration for, for this and future generations. those kids we were talking about. So with that in mind, how does your job contribute to that mission?

Becky Wyman: Well, I keep going back to when I was first interviewed for my administrative assistant position in the Commercial Services Office, and, Mary Murphy, who was a long time employee of the park, made a comment that stuck with me. And, and she said, our division touches everybody's vacation. It impacts their experience. And so coming in, that kind of motivated me to make sure that what I'm doing with our partners are are contributing to that experience.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. For sure. I mean, if someone has a bad experience that that they associate that with Yellowstone National Park and the National Park Service potentially.

Becky Wyman: And then also we, work with our interpretive division to help educate our guides to be better educators for their clients that they take through the park. So it's a group effort.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah.

Miles Barger: Yeah. I mean, something I've thought about a lot. I don't know how to quantify it, but I would guess that all of our concessionaires spend more certainly like longer term hours with visitors than any National Park Service employee. Because I feel like most people, if they interact with a National Park Service employee, it's going to be as a visitor at a visitor's visitor center desk, maybe for like a few minutes, because we are busy and there's lines and people have questions.

Miles Barger: Or maybe they get to go on a Ranger led walk or talk. I mean, that's a small percentage, but even those maybe are going to be 30 minutes, 45 minutes, whereas concessionaires, it can be all day or multiple days. It can be a really close relationship that people form. So I've I think about that a lot. I think in every park that I've worked at, that's been the case that those really quality hours are often with a concessionaire.

Miles Barger: So they're like a huge, not just an extension of what we do, but they're they contribute big time. Yeah. To that mission for sure.

Brett Raeburn: So, so for someone who's listening to this and is like, man, that that sounds like a, that sounds like a cool job. I like a challenge. I like to, to go snowmobiling every once in a while. what what's the series? Do you know your series in USA jobs?

Becky Wyman: It's an 1101.

Brett Raeburn: Okay, okay. So that's what people can look look at, if they're interested in those. And that's concessions.

Becky Wyman: It's a it's a commercial. It's a concessions management specialist. And I believe they start at GS seven. and go all the way up to supervisory positions. they there are I don't know what these series number, but there is a can concessions management assistant that might be like a 6 or 7. but yes, we're all over the park service in every park.

Brett Raeburn: Okay. Yeah. And that's, that's the other great thing is that every park, has those type of job. So if you want to move around the country you can do that pretty easy.

Becky Wyman: Absolutely.

Brett Raeburn: That's that's another great part of that job.

Becky Wyman: And every park is different in the contracts and commercial use authorizations and and activities that they offer. So pick your pick your park pick your activity and you there's probably something out there for you.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah for sure. And and do you need formal training to, to qualify for, for those positions.

Becky Wyman: Obviously not.

Brett Raeburn: just lots of experience.

Becky Wyman: I come from a wildlife biology background. I think a business accounting, finance, experience would be beneficial. I've kind of had to learn on the job. but, one thing that's helped me in Yellowstone is just my varied experience working here. and knowing people and programs and the willingness to be flexible and patient. it took me a while to get where I am, and I made some choices for my family that kept me from taking certain jobs, and there were certain jobs I didn't want.

Becky Wyman: But I think those type things would be beneficial. for someone looking at this, I don't know that you need like an accounting degree, but I definitely think, you know, people that have run small businesses or worked in, we have, one of my coworkers worked, you know, in a cell phone company. Just having that knowledge of other other business, having that acumen would be helpful.

Becky Wyman: that's where I've been lacking. So it's it's taking taken me a few years to to train myself.

Brett Raeburn: Sure. And so is your advice to just. And would that be your advice for someone wanting that position. Just kind of be opportunistic and take what you can and, and kind of it'll work its way out.

Becky Wyman: Yeah. And you know, there's been several details that come across that I would encourage people to, to take advantage of, to gain experience. once you get into the program, our Washington office offers annual trainings, with asset management, pricing and evaluation, financial management, commercial use authorizations to kind of bring everybody up to speed. because it is kind of a different aspect of the Park Service.

Becky Wyman: and especially for, for those people in parks that have, collateral duties, you know, your superintendent, but you also have to manage the commercial services. It helps with those type of things. but I do think there's some introductory trainings on DOI talent that anyone can, take. Like, I think there's an introduction to commercial services, just to give you some background on, on on the program.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. That gives you that solid foundation to get started and kind of learn more about it. Well, that that all sounds that's that's great advice. I think, super applicable to a lot of people listening. do you have a favorite before we let you go, do you have a favorite memory in Yellowstone National Park? I'm guessing you have a few in the in 25 years, do you?

Brett Raeburn: But you can only pick one. That's my that's my rule.

Becky Wyman: Okay. Well. After 25 years, I have too many. So I'm going to pick one that's not in Yellowstone.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah.

Becky Wyman: Before I came to Yellowstone, I worked for the Fish and Wildlife Service in Vernal, Utah. and we worked in Dinosaur National Monument. So my favorite memory is just I worked for an endangered fish project, electro fishing down the Yampa, through the park. It was my first job out of college, and the best one ever.

Brett Raeburn: Can you describe to those who don't know what electro fishing is? Because it sounds like some heavy metal band from the 80s or something.

Becky Wyman: Well, we we had a, a raft with electrodes that came out from a boom on the front of the raft, and it had a platform and we turned the generator on to create the current, and we would go through the rapids with the electricity on, and the fish would get stunned and float to the top, and we'd have large nets hanging off the front of the boat, that we would scoop the fish up and bring them in and tag them if they were the right type of fish.

Brett Raeburn: And no fish are harmed.

Becky Wyman: That is correct.

Brett Raeburn: They are okay. For our listeners out there, did you did you get any like really weird random species that kind of floated to the top?

Becky Wyman: No. it was an endangered fish project. So we were looking for specific fish.

Brett Raeburn: Okay.

Becky Wyman: and so they were few and far between.

Brett Raeburn: But you just got to make sure that you don't fall in the water when those electrodes are one, right?

Miles Barger: The, like, most amazing rafting canyons in the country.

Becky Wyman: It is beautiful. Yeah. I would love to go back.

Brett Raeburn: That's another group trip that we can take.

Miles Barger: Did you go through the Gates of Lodor?

Becky Wyman: That's the one section I have not done.

Miles Barger: My father-in-law has done it. Yeah. It's a great name.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, Becky, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been awesome learning a little bit more about what you do and, how you contribute to the National Park Service mission. So just thanks for taking the time to, to talk to us and teach us a little bit more about it.

Becky Wyman: My pleasure.

Brett Raeburn: All right. That's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Becky Wyman. If you like what we do, rate and review the show wherever you listen, every positive review really helps new people find the show, so we appreciate it. If you have questions or want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the go.nps.gov/whatwedopodcast.

Brett Raeburn: Thank you.

While most people probably know of the NPS when it comes to parks, did you know Yellowstone has hundreds of contracts with commercial operators to do business in the park? These operators provide services such as hotels, campgrounds, guided tours, and more! Today, Becky Wyman talks about her job overseeing these contracts to ensure we provide a world-class visitor experience.

This is our final episode for season 1! Let us know what you think of the show and contact us at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast.

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, concessions management, concessions, cua, podcast, what we do, work with us

May 15, 2024

9. Bret De Young, Supervisory Telecommunications Specialist

Transcript

Transcript

Ashton: From Yellowstone National Park. This is what we do. I'm Ashton hooker.

Miles: And I'm Miles Barger.

Ashton: Hi Miles.

Miles: Hey, how's it going?

Ashton: Good. How are you?

Miles: I'm pretty good.

Ashton: Well, thanks for joining. We are joined today by Bret De Young.

Bret: Hello.

Ashton: Thanks, Bret. He is the supervisory telecommunications specialist here in Yellowstone. So to kind of kick us off with this conversation about telecommunications, you know, cell towers, computers, all the, like, techie stuff that can be a little polarizing here in a park like Yellowstone. People like, you know, remote places without any connectivity. We're going to get into all that. But I have a little trivia for you first. So let's see. We're talking about data. This is a big park, a lot of employees, a lot of computers, a lot a lot of storage. How much storage do you think is supported on Yellowstone's network?

Miles: I'll take a wild guess. 100TB.

Ashton: You're actually spot on. Wow that's amazing.

Miles: I remember Mark's emails.

Ashton: Good job. So to put that into perspective, I was like, what does 100TB actually mean? So correct me if I'm wrong. This was just some brief googling. so 300,000 digital photos require one terabyte. So if you multiply that by 100, that is 30 million photos.

Miles: That's a ton. That's a lot of data and storage. One hour of eight K footage. Just kidding.

Ashton: That's probably not too far off. Yeah. But anyway, to get into this topic more, we have Bret De Young. Thanks for joining us, Bret. How are you doing?

Bret: I'm doing good.

Ashton: Good, good. So starting us off. Where did you get your start in the National Park Service?

Bret: In the National Park Service. I started volunteering with the National Park Service. I came to Yellowstone right after graduating from Purdue, and I worked for the concessionaire, and I worked with the Rangers at Ole Faithful doing search and rescue and a number of other different things. the other jobs that I did for the concessionaire and risk management and fire safety, I worked for the fire marshal, and I worked with the safety office. And, so, in an engineering office, I worked with a facility, maintenance division. So I knew most everybody pretty well after the 16 years that I'd worked for the concessionaire. And, then I one day I got a call from someone, and I applied for a job, and I walked across the street, and I asked them where the cafeteria was because the concessionaire, they fed us every day, and they told me I had to bring my own lunch.

Ashton: Oh, man.

Bret: So I'm still. I'm still working through that.

Ashton: Yeah. You're still learning how to tweet yourself every day.

Miles: Why did you first come out and start volunteering? well, are you just an outdoors person before that or.

Bret: Yeah, I was I came out here like most people do because they want to experience outdoors and they want to live in it, and they want to, you know, if rather than taking a vacation, they want to walk out the door and do it on their time off. And, so, yeah, I was just drawn to that. And, it was a really close knit community down at Old Faithful, and we ended up working winters and summers seasonally. And, you know, we all worked closely with the Rangers, so it was just nice to spend time and broaden our, our sphere.

Ashton: Was there something about Yellowstone that drew you here, or was it just kind of you just happened to come out?

Bret: It was, Yeah. I was graduating from college in 1989, at Purdue and, it was during a recession at the time. And I was I was gung ho to start paying off student loans.And I had a friend that kept saying, I love, you know, I've been working summers in Yellowstone and Yellowstone and, you should come out. And I said, okay, let's come out for a summer. And, I think you hear that story a lot. You know, people get hooked. You got hooked. So, yeah. And, my wife came out eventually, not long after that. And so we just made a home of it. Cool. There's. I mean, it's such a big park, and there's so many opportunities. You can move all over the place laterally, and and, there's a lot to do here. That's, that's a benefit of a great big park.

Ashton: So as a supervisory telecommunications specialist do you have a typical day on the job. Is there even such a thing. Does it vary by season. What does that look like for you?

Bret: Most days are typical. When you get into a supervisory position, it's you don't get out in the park as much. So you see, there's a lot of office time, which is, you know, can be the downside. The upside is that you work with all you know, you have a staff and they become your team, and that's fun too. And you kind of live through them in a lot of ways. But a typical day. If so, we support, Yellowstone's dispatch center, which is an eight position dispatch center. It's FCC licensed and, it it's, you know, it's an alarm monitoring center. It's a very busy center, as, as you all know. And it also supports the communities of, Gardiner and, Corwin Springs and Silver Gate and Cooke City and, but we support all their technology, all their systems, or 9 or 9 systems or CAD systems. That's our dispatch system. And, it's very complex. So, if I didn't get a call in the middle of the night from a dispatcher, then the first thing I do is when I get up at 445 in the mornings, I look at my phone to see if there's any emails from any dispatchers, and maybe a radio system wasn't working correctly or they weren't getting, you know, when a 909 call came in and it didn't give the phone number or the address or it was, you know, missed out or something like that. So I look for those first thing just to see what the day is going to be like. And if there's none of those, then, I, like many employees, live outside, you know, outside communities I live in immigrant up in Paradise Valley. if anybody's watched the Yellowstone TV show, it's not like that. But it's very pretty. But I live, you know, so it's an hour commute for me. And, we have a rideshare program that we've been doing since 1991 where employees all ride together. And it's and it's a great thing. So, and I've been the program manager that since 2016, but, so sometimes I'll drive the van and drive a bunch of my employees to work. And anyway, so typical day. Then we get here seven a lot of us work ten hour shifts, and get in at seven. And I go around, I work with all my staff. I see what the telephone people are up to, what the IT people are up to, what kind of challenges they have, what's on the agenda for the day with the alarm shops, doing what the radio shop's doing, and, after I've caught up with all of them, then it's like a lot of other jobs. It's emails and contracts and phone calls and meetings.

Ashton: Gotcha. And so that day that you said you've walked across the street to start working for the Park Service, obviously, you didn't start out as like a supervisory telecommunications specialist. So can you tell us kind of your path from there to where you are now? Like, did you have other jobs in the meantime or.

Bret: Yeah, that was that was pretty linear. I came across the do a fire alarm systems project. I was working in the engineering department with Sentara and, and, we had tackled some big fire alarm system deficits. We took, you know, we took care of big buildings with, Sentara the concessionaire. We did the Old Faithful and the Lake Hotel, you know, really important overnight occupancies where you can't have, you know, you can't empty the building in the middle of the night because of a nuisance alarm. We did that sometimes. so we got things kind of under wraps over there, and then they, there are some deficits over here, and they wanted me to tackle that. So that's the job I got hired for. but then I became the alarm shop supervisor, and then, my supervisor at the time that hired me, he went on to be the superintendent of American Samoa National Park. So then I detailed in his position, and eventually I got got the position. So. And he's now, the superintendent of Death Valley.

Miles: So he never liked the cold. Yeah.

Bret: That's about to say. Yeah. That's the place to be if you don't like cold here in Yellowstone. But an interesting thing about him is he hiked every single trail and Yellowstone. And he was here five years. His name is Mike McReynolds, and he's still the superintendent of Death Valley. And then when he completed that project, he started hiking them backwards. Oh, wow. And then he left for American Samoa.

Ashton: Wow. So yeah, I haven't that is an accomplishment.

Bret: I like to do that, but it hasn't happened yet.

Miles: So you did. You kind of ran through all of them. But I'm just curious if you could restate all of the different systems that fall under telecommuting in the park, because I think people I mean, I'm a, I sometimes I forget, you know, I'm like, I think I'm covering all of them and I forget fire alarms or something like that.

Bret: I forget sometimes too. Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot. And then we're reminded, yeah. So the radio systems is a really important one little animal radio system. We've got a big, complex system. And that's what the Rangers use to talk. And we send out pages. We still do pages, for our advanced life support crews and EMTs. Law enforcement. There's, resource protection people that are doing bear jams and animal jams and things like that. And it's just safety, too, for people working in the backcountry so they can communicate. so radio is a really important thing. We have telephones. We've got about 500 landlines and, 180, 190 cell phone lines. So we manage all those contracts and all that hardware for that and the network that it takes to push it out there. The IT department, which is we've got a very complex network to get it out there is, is, you know, the, chief information officer came out here one time from the Department of Interior. He said the last mile is Mammoth. So everything we do to get that from here, from Mammoth to the rest of the park, is magic. It takes a lot of effort and a lot of different methods. So, so, yeah, then we do internet services. We, do all the right away permits for the cell companies. There's a few of those in the park. Five towers that we try to hide. there's, What else? Telephone systems. Alarm systems. Your alarm system. Fire alarm system security, alarm systems, video security. And then also dispatch, which is, like you said, dispatch. Very complex and very important. Yeah. and I hope I didn't leave anything off so any of my staff is disappointed, but but yeah, we do all that and we try to keep it behind the scenes. So the visitors come in, they see the, you know, they see the resource and the animals and everything, and this goes unseen. But it's critical to keep them safe and. Right. so yeah. Yeah.

Ashton: So yeah, very important stuff behind the scenes that a lot of people.

Bret: Yeah. Like you said, they visit and they would never know. Hopefully not. Yeah. Hopefully that's the goal.

Miles: Well and I think a lot of parks in different settings have a lot of these things. They don't have to manage them themselves. You know we're such a big place. It's like yeah there's cell phone towers outside of smaller units or telecommunication stuff kind of comes right up to the edge. Not that they don't have things that they need to do, but, you know, I always tell people at Yellowstone, it's like a it's like a mini state in a lot of ways.

Bret: Yeah. You're exactly right. Yeah. If you can have a cell tower at a gateway community that covers where you needed to cover, that's great. We don't have to put it on federal land but we don't. That does doesn't work here. Just doesn't reach far enough. Right. Yeah.

Ashton: So what would you say is the most important skill for your job?

Bret: Most important skill prioritizing. technical aptitude is the, you know, the obvious one. a broad array of technical experience. Yeah. You have to be kind of a generalist in a lot of ways. And, you know, specialist and others. but yeah, prioritization is really important. Essentialism is really important, which is kind of like prioritization. But doing what's most important all the time and finding focus is really important because multitasking is kind of a defeatist sort of a skill. I think you do a better job for your customers when you're, when you're more focused and less multitasking. Yeah. And so, what would you say is your favorite part of your job. Oh well it's, it's probably a boring answer but it's true. It's, I really like coming in and working with all my staff, you know, seeing them face to face. We do have some remote workers especially in IT and and they're great. And it's really fun to interact with people at different parks and different parts of the country. But, you know, interacting with the staff there, you know, they're enthusiastic. They've been or a lot of them have been around for a long time. And, you bounce ideas off each other and they resource a network. And, so that's that's great. the other part, the other best part about the job is probably going to like, remote repeater sites up on mountaintops. And we'll hike to some of those. Sometimes we fly, we try not to, but skiing to them is, is pretty cool. It takes a lot of planning and you got to be safe. But, you know, that's that's a great way to stay connected. yeah.

Miles: There's been some, there's been some good trips up to Mount Holmes the past few years, I feel like. Yeah. Among others. Yeah, I know I've seen some pictures from that. Yeah. Challenging conditions. Things always like to go down in the middle of the winter, it seems like.

Bret: Yeah. And we do everything we can to make sure that they're going to hold up for the winter, you know, do all that work in the summer. but, occasionally they, they quit. So you have to travel. Yeah. We get some less than ideal weather in Yellowstone. Sometimes we do, sometimes we certainly do. Sometimes you can't fly. So you have to take other methods to get there. And sometimes you just have to wait.

Ashton: And where are those located?

Bret: We have, eight mountain top repeaters. We have one on Druid Peak in the Lamar that you can't see. We have one on Henderson Mountain just outside of the park. We have one on top notch, which is in the park. We have one on Mount Washburn, which you can drive to for about four months of the year. Yeah, that's quite a luxury. We have one just outside of the park on Survey Peak, in and right on the edge of Grand Teton National Park and the, Jebediah Smith Wilderness Area. which is funny, you have to land the helicopter right on the park side because. That's right. Recommended wilderness and Jebediah is actually wilderness, so no helicopters. So, it's like an invisible line right on the peak. And, and then there's also Sheridan has one, with a 1926 New Deal area fire lookout up there.

Miles: Wow, that's really cool.

Bret: And, Mount Holmes, there's one on there. There's one on Purple Mountain. And, the Mount Holmes on was inside a 1926 fire lookout, but it got struck by lightning and and and went down in a blaze. So let's see did I miss any. Oh, Bunsen Peak also which is just outside of Mammoth.

Ashton: Which people can hike up to if they want.

Bret: They can. Yeah. See that one.

Miles: The Mount Holmes one made me sad. That was the first one I'd ever hiked up. Two of the fire lookouts you sat in that burned down?

Bret: Yeah. Such a cool location.

Ashton: So you mentioned your favorite parts of the job. On the other side of that, what are some of the toughest things that you encounter in your position?

Bret: The toughest things is when you, when things crash, though, that's a real challenge. Those middle of the night calls, you have to wake up and be lucid and understand what the problem is and who your resources are. And, you know, get to the root of the problem pretty quickly. It always amazes me how quickly we can restore something that seems catastrophic. so, you know, that's really challenging. The other things, like we may have links go down for days and have, there's been two times in my career that, we lost Mount Washburn, which is kind of a hub, and we didn't have any cell service at all. And a lot there's a lot of medicals in Yellowstone. There's a lot of, you know, heart attacks and life flights and things like that. And when someone can't call 911 from an interior location, that's that burden just falls on us really hard. And, if you're in the middle of something else and that call comes in, you're just, you know, there's really no backup for you, so you just have to be fully engaged. last fall that happened, and there's only been a handful of times that have happened. But last fall, it happened the night before. I directed a running race, north of Yellowstone. And, so as the director, I was very busy. Probably going to be up all night, but this happened in the middle of the night. So, managing those two things was hard. So, yeah, you can imagine emergencies like that. Yeah. Can be stressful, but exciting.

Ashton: Yeah, we're thankful, that you're there to assist.

Bret: But then it's good to. I mean, there's always an upside to a challenge, you know, an opportunity with the challenge, but just having a, like a phone full of resources and knowing that I can get get a hold of, you know, a power company representative in the middle of the night, a cell tower company representative in the middle of the night. And I can get these things back up with our help. like the, you know, everybody, everywhere in America, the linemen are always out in the worst times. And and they're kind of heroes when it comes to that sort of stuff. So. So that's that's the role you have to fill.

Ashton: Yeah. So even with those types of difficulties or challenges that you might encounter, what keeps you here? What keeps you working for the National Park Service? Why do you stick around?

Bret: Oh, gosh, all kinds of things. I mean, just the whole mission of it. Oh, you know, one of the biggest things is just the this is just still an intact ecosystem. And, you know, predator prey relationship, all the all the predators that are restored. And, that's amazing. And you don't I've been here 30 years, and you just you don't get over that. So so that's a, that's a thing. And then and then the people and, I don't know, I could go on and on. Yeah. Skiing's pretty good.

Ashton: Yeah. Maybe not this winter.

Bret: I try not to talk about skiing too much because you guys only have so much time.

Ashton: Yeah, we'll have to hear some ski stories over time. But do you have a in all your years being here in Yellowstone, working for the National Park Service, do you have a defining moment? Is there a moment that sticks out to you that you're like, yes! Like that's that's why I work here. And it was super rewarding.

Bret: Okay, here comes the ski story.

Ashton: Okay. Perfect.

Bret: We had, Mount Holmes, and Miles, your, you know, references. But in 2011, Miles, Mount Holmes, the repeater antenna went down, in December, and there was a big storm coming in. And, the Mount Holmes repeater is also used by, Montana State Patrol for highway 191 outside of the park, where there's a lot of accidents. It's a dangerous road. It's a pretty important one. So, but we couldn't get a helicopter in because the storm front was coming in fast, so we decided we were going to ski it. So it was a team of three was a, another, guy, Dustin Sene, a radio tech with us now. He's the the superintendent of Bighorn National Monument and Bighorn Recreational Area. But some of that stuff and Doug Kraus, who's our, health tech foreman, and we so we put together that trip in December. And we thought we'd stay and, the winter cabin on the way in, we open up the door and it was, it was about a half inch deep of mouse poop. So we said, no, we're not going to do that. We thought we can push to the summit. So it was a real big effort. We got to the summit and and I got the cabin opened and the storm was starting to pick up. And this is a 10,300ft peak. You know, it's it's a big effort. It's took hours.

Miles: And, it's a long ski too.

Bret: Right. I mean, it's it is a long ski. Yeah. It's a ten miles. Yeah. It's it's, eight, eight, eight hard miles. Yeah, yeah. so, yeah, we got the cabin opened up, we got a temporary antenna installed, tested it out, and then we got that door closed. Then, the the storm came in and just blew so hard all night. It just rattled up that fire lookout all night, and, But that was pretty neat. We were testing the radio from inside, and we're talking to the Montana Highway Patrol, and it's really remote site. And, next morning, we ski out. Was nice. that's super cool. So that was good. Yeah. Good trip. Yeah. That was I don't know if that was a defining moment, but that's one of the good ones.

Ashton: Yeah. Definitely memorable. It sounds like.

Bret: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Miles: So I'm I'm just you said about 30 years you've been doing telecommunication stuff in Yellowstone, right? Yeah. I feel like, of course, all fields change over time, but I feel like telecoms may be the fastest changing field in the past 30 years, I would venture. So what's it been like to see that change? I'm trying to think my first summer here was 2006, and I think there was like a payphone in our dorm. I mean, that, you know, there was no internet that we could even use, or my cell phone didn't work unless I drove a long way, I would think I was at Canyon. So what's it been like to see the change? Because now I'm at home and I can stream 4K movies from a satellite. You know, it's so different.

Bret: Yeah. Well, yeah. So my first summer was 89, and we had a payphone and we couldn't get radio stations and we couldn't get TV stations. We watched two VHS movies at the pub. That was fun. But, it has changed a lot, and that's always a topic of discussion. And whenever there's some sort of new proposal, we get a lot of comments. yeah. I've noticed that people are very invested in. Yeah, in the connectivity in Yellowstone. Yeah. The, the so there's two different aspects to your question. There's the expectation of a wilderness experience or or a historic experience as well. but then there's also keeping up with what the needs are. And then, you know, we're also a government agency. So we're on a government network and we have cyber security issues, and we have to protect those perimeters, like vigilantly, as much as any other government agency. So we're always protecting ourself from threats you know. So that's the biggest agent of change these days. is keeping up with that and all the training and what we have to do for that. But everything in the middle between then and now, you know, we've gone from like you said, you had a cell phone. There was very few towers. Wwe've added a few. We've definitely put a stop to more towers. But there was a point when Suzanne Lewis was the superintendent. She said, I'm the only one who's going to have a cell phone. And then, you know, then that expanded a little bit, and now we've got 150 of them out there, because it's kind of a tool so that everybody has to use, and the cost has gone down. But so yeah, that's a big question. You know what's changed a lot has changed. and we have we're fortunate to have some people that have been working in it for 35 years, which is pretty neat because it's fun to hear their stories. but we also do have a wireless communications plan that the park put together in 2009. And that limits a lot of our wireless technology. And so the intent of that is to not have cellular service on the roadways and in the backcountry and limit it to the developed areas and only specific developed areas, which is a bit of a compromise. you can see this is still one of those places in the lower 48. You can drive from mammoth, the Old Faithful and not have a cell signal for, what is that, 52-53 miles.

Miles: It's just it's so interesting to see, especially with how ubiquitous internet connectivity has become everywhere. I think sometimes visitors come and they're just like some people come specifically for that. And other people are just shocked. They're like, what? Yeah. What do you mean my Google Maps, it tell me where to go or yeah, like, what? Where can I get Wi-Fi here? And, there's one place. It's three hours away.

Bret: Yeah, I get those. I get the visitor comments and both both for exactly in both both directions, sometimes in the middle, but usually, strongly one way or the other.

Ashton: So we're getting into the nitty gritty here. If somebody were to go on USA jobs and want to apply, you know, to work in telecommunications, what series would they be looking for?

Bret: Well, the telecommunications series is, is the 0391, electronics technician, which is our radio technicians and alarm technicians are 0856 and IT specialists are 2210. And that's a really fast growing series because everything is connected by networks. Now. So radios connected telephones connected by networks. so so that's a good one to look for. and there's a lot of recruiting going on in the IT world. So you can in my branch, it could be any one of those threes.

Ashton: Okay. And so are the opportunities available from like entry level all the way up? What does that look like?

Bret: Yeah, 7, 9, 11 and 13.

Ashton: And so what types of training or anything like that would people need to get into that type of work?

Bret: Yeah. You just fake it til you make it. Just kidding. Getting a variety of stuff radio technicians, we hire a lot from the military because they get really good training. You know, setting up, antennas and repeaters and base stations and microwave network extenders and things like that. but, anyone who's worked with radio frequency technology, it there's all kinds of, you know, you can be Cisco certifications. You can be, you know, graduated in computer science. We've hired those, a lot of people just gain a lot of knowledge and experience from jobs and so as a hiring official myself, I look for all those things, myself, I have a, bachelor's, and the school technology with a specialty and organizational leadership. So, so, you know, I'm a lot of, you know, leading a group as much as the technical. So, so it varies. There's no straight track. Yeah. Yeah. You'll kind of find that in the Park Service as well. People kind of come from all kinds of backgrounds. Yeah as well. So yeah. Yeah I think knowledge and experience sways is you know counts for more on a resume for this line of work than, than a degree does. We've hired some recent graduates too.

Ashton: So do you have any advice if people were interested in applying or, you know, getting that experience, what advice would you give for them?

Bret: You know, Yellowstone, we feel like we're really specialist. A lot of small parks have one technology person and everything's thrown at them, but we're really as far as the industry goes, we're generalists. So if you're in it, if you're doing like system administration, also learn about networking and also learn about cybersecurity and learn about maybe coding, you know, so so branch out a little bit. And if you're, you know, if you're into radio, also learn about networking. So you can do radio over IP. So I would say that those, those are important things to do if you want to work for us, do on fire alarm systems get like a nice that certification, you know National Institute for Certification and Engineering technologies and and that tells me that you really know the codes, you know, the fire codes in and out, and you're not going to build a system that's not going to work. so cool. Those are a few tips. Yeah, yeah.

Ashton: That's great. and so finally, the last question we like to ask everybody is just about your personal experience. Any memorable experience you've had? It could be either in Yellowstone or any other national park, work or personal time. Do you have a moment that sticks out to you?

Bret: Yeah, the five years I worked in the ski shop at that snow lodge. Yeah. That was that was the peak of my career, not of my pay.

Miles: That's usually how it works.

Bret: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's been going up and down ever since, so. Yeah, that was great. We worked there the last year that it was open. It was the Snow lodge then was nothing more than really it looked like a roadside motel. it was cheap. you know, anybody could afford to stay there. The people that came to visit there, they're all interesting. And, you know, at the Bear Den ski shop was a log cabin with a with a wood stove right next to it. And, Yeah, that was great. They built a new hotel, the Snow Lodge Hotel, and the ski shops and the gift shop now, and that's all still good, but those those are good days back then there was quite a community back then, too. They were really, really, strong skiers and and outdoors people and just a lot of fun.

Ashton: That sounds awesome.

Bret: And many Rangers worked in that that ski shop, too, over the years for the, moved over to the Park service too.

Ashton: Yeah, well, I think that wraps it up. Thank you so much for joining us, Brett.

Bret: Thanks for having me. This was fun.

Ashton: Well, that's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Bret De Young. If you like what we do, write and review the show wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. If you have questions or want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast. Thanks for listening!

Yellowstone is one of the most remote places in the Lower 48, which presents unique challenges for telecommunications systems. Our technology services team provides computer, radio, and phone support for employees, maintains the communication center/dispatch services, and more. Today, Bret De Young gives us a peek into his job and provides tips for those interested in working in the growing telecommunications field for the NPS.

View definitions/links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, work with us, park ranger, telecommunications, podcast, what we do

May 8, 2024

8. Heather Basak, Administrative Support Assistant

Transcript

Transcript

Miles: You know.

Miles: From Yellowstone National Park. This is what we do. I'm Miles Barger.

Jake: And I'm Jake Frank. You know.

Miles: Hey, Jake. How's it going?

Jake: Miles, I mustache is looking super good today.

Miles: Yeah, our podcast listeners can't see my new magnificent mustache.

Jake: But, guys, it is spectacular.

Miles: To use mustache wax. That's the tip. Yeah. today we're going to be talking to Heather Basak. she's an administrative support assistant, real stones division of resource education and youth programs. We call it Rippy for short. before we get started, though, a little trivia question for you, Jake.

Jake: Bring it.

Miles: I don't know how you would know this, but you can make a good guess. How many seasonal employees does r e y p employ in the busy summer season? Rounded to the nearest ten. What do you think? 100 were pretty close. A little over.

Jake: 90.

Miles: One more.

Jake: 70.

Miles: 80.

Jake: I did that on purpose.

Miles: Nice. I think the four positions would be 83, but somewhere around 80. That's a lot. It is a lot. There's a lot that goes into, it goes into that, including hiring all those people and doing paperwork and doing budgeting and all sorts of fun things. so.

Jake: You got to pay the people.

Miles: We got to pay them. We we like to. and then one note, if you notice a difference in sound quality for this episode, there's a good reason for that that we're going to get into during this episode. Heather is a fully remote employee, so we're doing our interview via video chat. So the sound might be a little bit different and that's on purpose.

Miles: So you ready? Heather? Ready as you'll ever be. Yep. Heather, that is good to see you as always. So first question to kick it off, when and where did you get your start in the National Park Service? Or if you got started in something that led into the Park Service, you could even start with that. Sure.

Heather: so I never thought I would actually be working for the National Park Service. And I grew up like, I mean, we didn't know existed national parks. We didn't really do that. We did other types of vacations, but never the parks. So that was on never on my radar. And it wasn't until I was in college that I visited my first national park and the national park in Texas.

Heather: And wonderful trip. I had a blast. Beautiful. But again, I didn't it get. I never thought that I would work for them. And in 1820, towards the end of college and I didn't have a job. What exactly? Sure. What I wanted to do. I was thinking about going to museum studies because I was like a political figure. but I didn't have anything lined up.

Heather: And I actually saw a poster and one of the buildings in my college, and it was for the Student Conservation Association, or SCA, and it talked about internships and public lands. And I thought it could be something. To look into. I don't really have anything lined up. I'll look into it. So I went on their website.

Heather: And kind of internships like service, management service, doing a lot of that service park ranger type jobs. But then there were other internships like archeologist or, territorial intern that was really interested. I was really interested in scattered throughout the park. I was going to state, so I did her first internship with a National Park Service site in Kansas called Fort Scott starts right at the curatorial intern.

Heather: And I was working a lot with collections to prepare of that, and I really enjoyed it. Had other part of that internship was doing around the old military fort. And I got to see a little bit of living history in a fort. This is pretty cool. This is pretty fun. Maybe this is something I want to look into more.

Heather: So then I decided to do a second internship. After that, and FCA from Denali National Park and Preserve, and I got to see. I met Jake and we worked together, and I was really there. And I thought, okay, this is something I might want to do for the rest of my life. They were amazing people to work with.

Heather: there were beautiful things to see and do, and I never would have been never going to have probably visited the without first going to Fort Scott and doing other internships. Not just something I really, really want to do. And so then, just to be sure, I did one more internship with SCA, this time at Big Bend.

Miles: National Park and right back to where you started.

Heather: So it kind of feels like it came full circle, like it was the first national park I visited. Then it is National Park. That kind of really was like, yeah, this is definitely what I want to do is unique experience. I got to do it as visit as a visitor and then also be an employee or an intern there.

Heather: And so I thought this it this is what I want to do. And then from there I made the jump to like this and Wildlife Service and then National Park Service worked a couple of seasonal positions at different national parks and then eventually made that right into a permanent. Position in Yellowstone. And now as an administrative support assistant.

Jake: So I have a few. That was that was a a varied background. So couple things you mentioned, living history. Did you get to wear like period appropriate? like, I don't know, is it costumes is the right word or clothes? That was a while ago.

Heather: Some everything that happens. But it was just very special service. I know time Fort Scott by candlelight and it was close to Christmas time. And they had like different vignettes and all these different military buildings where we would act out scenes of what would have happened, in these different buildings. And I got to be a military long dress.

Heather: And so I got to be where kind of more in our 19th century garb and, pretend to be out doing the, the soldiers laundry. So that was pretty unique. It was really it was really great.

Jake: Yeah. And then the other thing she mentioned that the people she worked with and and they were really great. I just want to like, concur that I am very grateful.

Miles: That I got to.

Jake: Get that on the record.

Miles: I think. When were you guys there? I was there 2008 and 910.

Jake: 2012 is when you were there, right? Heather. Yes.

Miles: That okay. So I missed you. I was a little earlier.

Jake: Yeah. There there is.

Miles: Like all the best people.

Jake: Our listeners there is like a legit like if you've worked in Alaska, you have like a camaraderie with the people in Alaska because it gets into your own, like such a cool place. Like, yeah, you can tell from Heather, she's like, I went to Alaska. And then I realized this is what I wanted to do. Like, it's just really cool.

Miles: Yeah, I resemble that remark.

Jake: So out of those, out of all those jobs that you did to get you to Yellowstone, all the seasonal jobs was there. Did you have any repeat jobs or where did you move, like every season? Was it a different job?

Heather: So good question. And so I well I worked at the. Fish and Wildlife pageant very similar to I was a park ranger, interpretive park ranger for them. And I worked with, preschool kids and did a preschool program for them, and then kind of translated that into the National Park Service. I did interpretive park ranger job. so a lot of the kind of hikes, the guided parks in walks, that's the thing working in the visitor center, helping people around.

Heather: but then I worked, also as a campground greeter, ranger, in great shape along with National Park. got to help people check in campsites, go to a campground, meals, walk around, talk to them, educate them about the park. and then I work with the Yellowstone and worked as a reminder. So I worked in the what's called the classroom and, and all the money that came in from the entrance stations and the visitor centers reconciled all that money, and then got it ready for deposit and then also worked in the visitor services office in Yellowstone.

Heather: helping people plan their trips and then work on some special use permit. so I didn't move around a little bit, but I was kind of I might have been in a little bit different, but seasonally, because I had I was with my husband and he had a permanent job at some of these places. Yeah. So I, I stuck around in some of these parks probably a little bit longer than others, seasonal soup.

Heather: And then I can then move around a little bit and follow their job. Or I was and more in one area for a longer time.

Jake: Yeah, I was, I was asking because my until I got my first permanent job, I moved 12 times in six years. So it was every six months. I was on to something else though, like that's that is part of the lifestyle. And then your permanent okay.

Miles: So where are you joining us from right now.

Heather: So I work I believe in my from Boise Idaho.

Miles: and how long have you been working fully remote. Is it been two years?

Heather: Oh, that's a that's a great question. And then and probably about a year and a half.

Miles: Okay. Okay. so what does, do you have a typical day? What does your typical day look like? You have a typical day. So I don't think there ever really is a typical week.

Heather: for an administrative support assistant. because so many things get thrown at us and there's so many things that pop up last minute that we have to take care of that I don't think any one day is completely the same. But we do have a lot of like reoccurring tasks that happen every. And so we do a lot of the same stuff to me, every single day may not just be every day like we have to get payroll done.

Heather: that's part of the big one. Everybody wants to get paid pretty important. So that's kind of one of thank you. It's one of the biggest tasks that we have. But we also arrange travel for a lot of our in-house employees that they have to go to meeting at the outside of the park to go to other parks to assist with anything.

Heather: We arrange that travel is something that that's kind of like a travel agent in that regard. we deal a lot with, I'm sorry. so we're kind of an.

Heather: HR liaison in his personnel actions for hiring somebody. All those are those 83 seasonals we put in an office for them, and then nobody is in these three different positions. Kind of all, initiative, support, assistance. And then depending on the part or even the division, you might even help with some budget work, reconciling accounts or an expenses and.

Jake: you also have a credit card.

Heather: I do not do not all do. But I do have a purchase card and I make purchases for some of our position.

Jake: Yeah, I know that, I've never owned a purchase card as a government employee, but that's another thing that, administer to folks are worth their weight in gold for managing the purchasing process. It's very complicated. And there are a lot of rules.

Heather: There are a lot like that. Yes.

Miles: Yeah. Yes. So what would you say is the most important skill for your job? Or if there's more than one, you can say, yeah.

Heather: administrative support assistance really need to be flexible because there are so many things that will pop up last minute. So I think you'll be working on something and then have to put that task away and work on something else because of the time sensitive. so you need to be able to jump from one task to another pretty easily and change your priorities on the fly.

Heather: and then I think you said you have a really good customer service mentality. I mean, administrative support assistance. We don't really what we don't buy. We didn't think of our customers like our fellow employees. We want to make sure we give them a good support. And as an experience, every time, so they can be successful in their job and so they can protect the parks.

Heather: They can also, you know, share business. And so we really need to be focused on our employees.

Miles: what's your favorite part? Yeah.

Heather: It's variety. There's a lot of stuff that you get to do as an administrative support assistant. You're not really necessarily pigeonholed into one thing. You get exposure to a lot of different, a lot of different routes. And, you know, coming around, at the time, you get exposure to different divisions, every division and administrative support assistant and what they do for each division is a little different.

Heather: So, you just get exposure to a lot of different things, a lot of different processes. You can really, really enjoy that. And I mean, get to work with people. It's just pretty great, too.

Miles: and, what about the flip side? You have a least favorite part of your job or hardest part? all the email. Yeah. Nonstop. Nonstop.

Heather: You, it's be a little overwhelming at times that, Yeah. But in all seriousness, I think having to juggle so many different things at once and balancing all the different pieces, and being able to get that from one task to another, and it can be a little difficult at times. So it's really important, you know, if you do get one of these jobs to take particular notes, be really organized.

Heather: and so figure it out. Really great organization methods for some of the stuff that. Yeah, yeah. But that's that's kind of like.

Miles: And I think sometimes you all have to deal with really long term deadlines or what seem like long term deadlines to me. And that I think that's always hard for me where it's like, oh, we need to have this thing in like six months ahead of time or, you know, and their deadlines that you, you can't miss really?

Miles: Yeah.

Heather: Especially when it comes to H.R. We really. Yeah. We've got deadlines pretty far in advance for some, for some of our things. And if you miss those deadlines and it pushes back and then maybe somebody can start. and so yeah. So there are some things that definitely happens.

Miles: Yeah. A lot of people relying.

Jake: you guys are there like the grease of this machine. They make sure that everything is the keeps chugging along and without it. Yeah. Without all the little actions and paperwork and everything, it seems like we're constantly in contact. Admin.

Miles: Yeah. And you all know all the you know, you all know all the little things, but. What do we do. How do we do that.

Heather: Well no. Yes. Well a lot of research. You do have to be a researcher I feel like. And then stop it and look at some of this stuff and make it out. And you've got some. Of those questions. Because there are a lot of rules. There are a lot of things. But and I'm still constantly learning. And that's also I got to like never really say I feel like you never really say, stop it. You're constantly in motion. You're constantly.

Miles: You mind if I ask you about when you're talking about moving with your husband and everything? Just because I think that would be interesting for people who are thinking about NPS as a career, it can be challenging. I think, or, you know, long term, partners who work in the service like I've known people who are married and live apart for a long time.

Miles: sometimes, like a really long time or they date and hour long distance for years before finally and and things like that. So, I don't know, just, like, how did that play into your career and your husband's career and how life is as gone for you guys? So far? I mean, it seems like that's probably part of the remote position or some of the flexibility, but I don't know, just anything.

Miles: You would want people to know about your experience with that who might be thinking about the Park Service? Yeah, that's.

Heather: A that is a great question. yeah. There are different routes that people can take, as I have also known, you know, couples who have had to be a pilot for a little while and it's working separate parts, and, and make them relate to each other. And we've been fortunate enough that, where my husband and I've been able to pick up seasonal work, and that that's not necessarily in the cards for everybody. But thankfully I was able to and I kind of there's also the reason why.

Heather: You know, I didn't. Just stay in one career path, like I've done a couple different Things. And that was really, you know, I kind of took a job with where I could, but I really liked it. I think that made me a little bit more well-rounded and really appreciated that. And then thankfully, when my husband moved to a different position, away from Yellowstone, I was able to go remote, especially with administrative and administrative work kind of leans more towards that.

Heather: With every job in the Park Service, there's so many that have to be, park. thankfully, like, I got allowed me to have that ability and my supervisors there was very, very supportive and I was able to get a remote job that did. That's really helped me with that.

Miles: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's, I mean, not that we need to dive deeper into it in this episode, but it is interesting. I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn that. Number one, if you work for a national park, it doesn't mean you're going to get like housing in the national park. In fact, it generally means you're not going to.

Miles: And, it's not just Yellowstone, but like a lot of parks, it's becoming harder and harder and harder to find places to live right by the park just because of how the real estate and things have gone as well. And then sometimes with some of these parks that are really remote, there's situations with like school for kids or extracurricular or all sorts of things.

Miles: So, yeah, that's part of why we wanted to one of many reasons why we wanted to talk to you is just to let people know that that is something that our remote positions are, something that parks are utilizing for the right positions and the right people, like you had already been at Yellowstone. So you know, the park, you know, people here, yeah.

Miles: I just think it's cool that that's been able to work out well for you. And it has worked out well for us as well.

Jake: Well, I'm not of a very big fan that Heather is remote, but other other than other than my personal with the Sierra person.

Miles: Yes, I agree with.

Jake: Her in person.

Miles: So, you know, even with, I'll say difficulties or challenges of, you know, managing, relationship and career and all different parks and the tough things about jobs and the good things about jobs. Why do you what has kept you working for the National Park Service, like what has kept you knowing that your decision, this is what you were going to do was the right one for you?

Heather: I mean, that's a big question. I think, you know, it really goes back to when I did that internship. I think that's when I just, I just yeah. It I just feel like, you know, I'm still in that and, what the Park Service stands for. And I've just met so many great people along the way, those, you know, fellow employees. Customers as well as visitors. that just makes. It just makes it worthwhile. in my office here, I worked with a school for it. And when I was in Yellowstone from Lowell, Massachusetts, I came all the way out to Yellowstone, and I actually have a picture of those kids. The teacher gave it to me. I have this picture of those kids on my desk, and, I can, just remind me, like, you know, I'm part of something bigger, and, you know, it's it's really awesome to to feel like I make a difference.

Heather: And, Yeah. So I just believe in the Park Service.

Miles: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's I kind of had a similar experience. I think a lot of us do. Or it's like, I think my first summer in a park was here in Yellowstone making beds at Canyon. But then, you know, I did a couple of the internships, and at some point you're like. And I go back to do a normal, a normal lifestyle if I can.

Miles: And then the mission and, just remind everybody, the mission of the Park Service is to preserve unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the national park park system for the enjoyment, education and inspiration of this and future generations. So, like you said, even if sometimes a day might be filled with like a checklist of what might seem like mundane tasks or something, I think for me it sounds like for you, having that bigger mission that you know, you're working for really does make a difference.

Jake: a question that I have, like with that mission, I think a lot of us, when we have the rough days that like physically work here, you have the rough days, but then you go outside and you hear the wolf howl, or you see Old Faithful erupt, like, how is that transition? And then for you going remote like, and, you know, keeping your like, how do you remind yourself that, you know, when you when it's not in your face like it was when you were physically working in or.

Heather: Yeah. So it's been a little bit of a transition. Sorry. No, I very much enjoy it. And flexibility it is given me to be, you know, continue to work for the parks are and I think it becomes more about the people. And I didn't necessarily build a connection to the place that I feel connection to the people even more.

Heather: so to me, Yellowstone has not just become like the first National park, amazing place to experience hot springs wildlife. It's really become like a community. and it's about it's about a deeper connection now for me as well. And so that's kind of.

Miles: Yeah, yeah.

Jake: Hashtag team Yellowstone.

Miles: Well, I think that's a good point too, because I know I've talked to people in my family or friends about working for the Park Service, and I think as people will, get the impression pretty quickly while they're listening to this podcast over all the different episodes and all the different people that we talk to, you just get to be surrounded by interesting, brilliant people and like every job, basically doing all these things for the park.

Miles: And it's such a cool community to be a part of. So I think, yeah, the that over time I've appreciated that more and more and more as to like what makes it such a cool place to work. so getting into the details of if someone were interested in this type of work that you do. So what is so your official title is Administrative Support Assistant.

Miles: Yes. do you know the job series on USA job?

Heather: Yes, it's 0303. And sometimes that it comes up as like a miscellaneous clerk. but it's administrative support assistant and the GIS level can range. I've seen from 1 to 5.

Miles: Okay. do you need formal training to get started in this job series or, like, what are the minimum requirements that people would need if they were thinking about applying for this type of job?

Heather: And so there's a lot of on the job training. Like I said, I'm still learning. So learning about so many things. But if you have like a background and a dad or it's time or travel, you know, those are all, applicable to the administrative support officer that, a lot of times how I, you know, I just worked my way as, Yes. Fine seasonal that I think back and then, you took over to the first credit to visitor services as well. So, I mean, if you work seasonally in the Park Service and every time you bring it in, and I think just even that experience can help you along to that if you take any even if just like any formal training for you. But that to seen anything like that that you know, put that on your résumé as well. There's a lot of things you may not think are prime do because they administrate of supportive systems are in every single division. I think if you work your way up through the division, I thought that, yeah, I'm a maintenance worker. If you know what seasonal maintenance workers need and you know the support that they need. So you you may not think it applies, but it probably does.

Jake: You know, it also seems like a lot of the systems that we use in the government are like proprietary. They like we're built for the government. So if you haven't worked in the government, you could have like say you're an accountant, you have budget experience, but you still have to learn new things in a job. So like right to your point, it's like, you know, if you're in an entry level position, it just seems like having an, you know, having a base level, you know, being organized and you know, it's like you're not necessarily going to know how to do VMs or, or insert any other acronyms right here.

Jake: Because, you know, there's so many of.

Heather: Different federal agencies who will use different systems as well. Like I learned from an HR specialist who moved over from the Forest Service. But they have a different set of these apps for their HR actions. So there's different, you know, different things that you'll learn on the job in the park, that are even different from other agencies.

Miles: And then just being in government in general, you know. Yeah, having almost what, oh, over 200 years of laws and things that have developed for different reasons. And, special ways that we do things and, you know, not just scrutiny, but like, you know, we have a higher responsibility to do everybody in the United States, basically.

Jake: Yeah. It's like taxpayer dollars. We need to make sure that we're not. Yeah. There's no yeah, waste wasting. There's a good accountability. There's all those checks balance.

Miles: Exactly. All right. So last question. You have a favorite story or memory in Yellowstone or any other national park that you would want to share?

Heather: This is a hard one. Yeah. yeah. You know, it's like. Asking to choose your favorite child. because they're all, you know, they're all. Unique and they're all special. my favorite, my. Favorite one that sticks out the most is it happened in Yellowstone. and I was driving down in the interior, and it was late, late in the season. They're still on the road. I was the only one on the roadway, and and Norris and I, my son, who's like, one of was in the backseat and, I turned and all of a sudden they were way all over the road. I had never walked in my life. And I got a video because I can't believe I. I slowed down, pulled over, and I put. Out my phone and I think of it, it sounds like this will never, ever happen again. And the wolves, were a black. I remember the black wolves walked within three feet of my car door and it looked at me, its eyes, and it was like kind of continued walking off. And I was like, oh my God, I get to this is my closest one's not going. To remember this. I didn't know what's going on, but I was like, daddy, we got to do that together. And I know we won't remember it. I mean, of course we won't remember this one, but, to think that, like, I got to be there and I got to share this special moment with him that will never happen to me again in my life. And, be able to experience Yellowstone in that type of way and keep that in mind. which was really neat and amounted to something. I'll be able to show him the video of and tell him about and he's older, and then hopefully, you know, when we go back to visit Yellowstone, I you can have a similar experience.

Miles: Very cool. Okay. Well, I think that's it for this week's episode.

Jake: Yeah. Thanks for joining us, Heather. Thanks so.

Miles: Much for. Yeah, finding us. Thank you for having me.

Jake: When are you coming back? for a visit. When are we going to see you in person again? Not soon enough.

Heather: I don't know when, but hopefully. Hopefully soon.

Jake: Ready? Well, we'll, we'll keep in touch virtually until then.

Heather: Sounds good. Thank you.

Working for the National Park Service was never on Heather’s radar, but after interning at a few different NPS sites after college, she got bit by the parkie bug and discovered that working in parks was the right fit for her. Today, Heather joins us virtually to talk about her work as a remote administrative support assistant, or as Ranger Jake calls it, “the grease of the Yellowstone machine!”

View definitions and links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, administrative support assistant, remote jobs, what we do, podcast, work with us

May 1, 2024

7. Miles Barger, Publications Program Manager

Transcript

Transcript

Jake: From Yellowstone National Park. This is what we do. I'm Jake Frank.

Ashton: And I'm Ashton Hooker.

Jake: Ashton.

Ashton: Hey, Jake.

Jake: How are you?

Ashton: I'm doing pretty good. How about you?

Jake: We're in Yellowstone, life is good.

Ashton: It's another day in Yellowstone.

Jake: Did you by chance happen to see the email that we got about the edits to our spring newspaper?

Ashton: I did, actually.

Jake: Did you get your edits in yet?

Ashton: No. It's on my list, though.

Jake: Make sure to do that. Yeah. Speaking of publications. Do you know how many publications that Yellowstone National Park manages?

Ashton: Oh. It's got to be way more than I even think.

Jake: It's a big number. It's not like ridiculously big number, but it's probably more than you would think.

Ashton: Yeah, I'm going to say 40.

Jake: Double that.

Ashton: Oh wow, 80?

Jake: 80 publications. Yeah. So, some of the big ones we have are like the park newspaper, but then there's a lot of site bulletins. There's basically all the information that you could want behind the visitor center desk. There's a ton of information to hand out to people if you come to Yellowstone and speaking of publications. Today we're joined by Miles Barger. He is the publications program manager in the Resource Education and Youth Programs division. Miles, how are you doing?

Miles: Oh, doing pretty well. Beautiful day out there.

Jake: It is a beautiful day. So, for our listeners, some of you may recognize the name. Miles is actually one of our hosts, but you're on the other side of the microphone today. So how does that feel?

Miles: Feels great. Multitalented. Yes. Yeah.

Jake: He's ambidextrous.

Miles: There you go.

Jake: You play offense and defense, right?

Miles: Yeah. Special teams.

Jake: Yes. So, how did you start working in national parks?

Miles: I was in college, and I was looking for a summer job. I had been working near my parents’ house in Kentucky. And then somehow, through the magic of the internet, I realized that you could work in a national park in the summer to make a minimum wage, which I think was like $5.25 back then.

Jake: You're dating yourself.

Miles: I know, yeah. You could work in a national park and make minimum wage instead of being at home doing it. So, I thought, that's interesting. So, I applied to. I don't think I applied to Glacier because you couldn't have a beard at that time, whatever the concessionaire was.

Ashton: Oh.

Jake: Well, what a terrible idea.

Ashton: Bummer.

Miles: I know. So, I was like, well, I'm not doing that, but Yellowstone, I saw some jobs, so I applied for a job with the concessionaire operating the hotels, which was Xanterra back then, as it is now. And I got a job, cleaning cabins at Canyon before they had built all the huge lodges that are up there now.

Ashton: Oh, wow.

Miles: It was all just cabins, yeah. And I towed a cart around from cabin to cabin and we paused when a bison was sitting on the porch, and I couldn't get in. It's like a forced break. and that was my first summer. And I haven't done anything but work in or around national parks since then.

Jake: Gotcha. So, you know, this podcast, we're focusing mainly on people who work in national parks. Yeah, but you mentioned that you worked for a concessionaire.

Miles: I did.

Jake: Yeah. Just something to tell people that are listening. Is that in Yellowstone, we have about 750 roughly permanent and seasonal employees combined every year. But what's that number in Xanterra? It's like over 3000?

Miles: I actually was just looking at this number for one of our publications. It's about 3200 seasonal, concessionaire employees in the summer. So many, many more.

Jake: Yeah. It's like five times more employees. So, for people who want to, like, if your main goal is to like what you were is to live in a cool place. In addition to park service jobs, there's Xanterra. There's Delaware North, STGi runs our clinics and then Yellowstone Forever. So, all of those different entities.

Miles: A lot of mines, a lot of my jobs were with nonprofit partners, like I worked for Alaska Geographic. Yeah, I worked for Denali Education Center, places like that where they're not the National Park Service job. But you're affiliated with the park, working with the park.

Jake: Yeah. So how did you make the switch? How did you go from one to the other?

Miles: I was working in Denali in Alaska, and I noticed that a lot of the people who worked there year-round had master's degrees, so I thought maybe I should do that. And I didn't have anything to do, in the off season anyway, so I started applying for master's degrees programs in, environmental studies, environmental science, got in the University of Oregon, started doing my master's, took some GIS classes that seemed helpful. And also, I'm a nerd and it seemed cool. And then there was a project called Atlas of Yellowstone, and I said, oh, I know about Yellowstone. I worked there for a little while, and I got in on that. And then a job opened up in the Park Service. Being a cartographer for the, unigrid brochure program, those are those glossy folded brochures you get when you go to the entrance of any national park. And so.

Jake: Highly sought after.

Miles: Highly sought after. Yeah. and it was the first time that job had opened in like 15 years, I think was the last time someone had retired or moved on. And I applied, figuring I wouldn't get it because it was a permanent, full time, higher graded a job. But I had the skills to pay the bills, I guess. It was just a very specialized area that I happened to, to have had a knack for it.

Ashton: Right place, right time.

Miles: Right place, right time. Exactly. I'd done SCA internships. I worked at Yellowstone. I had I'd pieced together enough stuff over those seasons that, combined with the cartography and design skills and writing, I could, you know, make a pretty good case that I had the love for the game and the skills and the knowledge about the park service and all of that, and I ended up getting the job.

Ashton: Cool!

Jake: So, your first park service job. The first. Well, what was your first seasonal one? I should say that was in Alaska? or did you go for.

Miles: I never had a park service job.

Jake: You never had a seasonal job?

Miles: My first Park Service job was a GS 12 visual information or cartographer.

Ashton: Wow!

Jake: Way, a way to just like come out swinging.

Miles: Yeah, yeah, I was pretty it was I definitely didn't think I would get the job. Yeah.

Ashton: Really awesome.

Jake: That is, you know, everybody that we interviewed, they'd have like a different backstory on how they started. And I would say, you know, that is atypical. But Ashton, you're you kind of had a similar thing too, right? Well, how did you get your start?

Ashton: I started in the it was Geoscientists and Parks internship program. Now it's called Scientists in Parks Internship Program. And I got an internship here in Yellowstone for a summer. And then this position opened up shortly after. Yeah. And applied thinking the same thing as Miles. I was like, I'm not going to get this job, but I got lucky and now I'm here.

Jake: Yeah. So, I would like to say that, you know, you guys are 2 in 1,000,000. Yeah. Like is that's not the anyway. Yeah. But I mean it can happen. I think that's, you know, just right place, right time. you know, being willing to get the background that you need so that when the jobs present themselves.

Ashton: So, you were a cartographer. Where was that?

Miles: Harpers Ferry,

Ashton: Okay.

Miles: So, it's the kind of design graphic design center for the National Park Service. I would say that's becoming more distributed over time. But things were super spread out in D.C. is my understanding. And like the 50s and 60s. And then there was a push to consolidate everything somewhere. And Senator Robert Byrd was very good at getting things built in West Virginia. I mean, Harpers Ferry, West Virginia is literally as far east and close to D.C. as you could possibly be in West Virginia. So, it's right on the corner. It's like the lowest elevation point in West Virginia, the beautiful spots where the Shenandoah flows into the Potomac.

Jake: Yeah, but I've sat on the confluence there and had lunch.

Miles: It's very pretty. And so, it's a building full of people who do. That's where the brochure program is. wayside exhibit design, AV, all sorts of stuff.

Jake: So, between that job, your first park Service job and, you know, now the program publications program manager, did you have some things in between or did you go it?

Miles: I did. I was there's a cartographer for. Yeah, almost four years. Basically, I missed being in the western U.S., and I wanted to get back into a park and operations. The cartographer job is cool because I got to see, like, the breadth of the Park Service and how many different types of parks there are and worked with every kind of park you can imagine from, like a tiny Civil war, not even Civil war, tiny Revolutionary War battlefields all the way up to huge parks. There was a job in Rocky Mountain National Park as the visual information specialist there. And I applied for that and got that job. So, I moved to Estes Park and worked for Rocky for five years. And then this job came open and I applied for that. And I came here in 2020. It was basically during the pandemic when that and the job opened up.

Jake: Yeah. So, kind of getting more into your current job now that you're here, do you have a typical day or a season? Like what? What's your what's your workload look like?

Miles: I definitely have a typical day, which is come into the office and sit down at my computer and work on my computer.

Jake: Can you, can you expand?

Miles: Yeah. So, being the publications program manager here, I'm in charge of not all the printed stuff, but the majority of printed things for visitors and for staff, like internal and even concessionaires. We make stuff for them as well. There are approximately 100 products, when you add up all the site bulletins, which are, you know, the folded black and white things that you get at visitor centers.

Jake: So, I was off, and I said 80.

Ashton: It's a lot.

Miles: It's something I yeah, maybe it's 80. It depends how you count things. Do you count all the different translations as separate things?

Jake: Sure.

Miles: Yeah. It's a lot of things. so. Yeah, depending on what the time of year is, I work on those, I would say my seasonal seasonality is kind of the inverse of a lot of people in operations. Which operations is like, you know, the front-line people who interact with visitors and are busiest during the summer, which is obviously when we're busiest. But I have to write, edit, get reviewed and get ready for print, which printing takes a lot longer than putting things digitally. Anywhere from 6 to 8 weeks. You have to submit something before you're going to get the printed version. So, my winter is really the busiest time from like October through now basically. Jake: Yeah. Miles: And a bunch of stuff I'm getting done right now because we need to get it here by the in May basically when our busy season starts and then the summer is it's busy been in a different way in the summer I mostly work responding to I also make a lot of signs, design a lot of signs, and get them ordered so that a sign requests come in for just stuff that happens in the park. And then, you know, things tend to happen in the summer. We have whatever, road, something goes wrong, and we have to reroute people or regulation changes or it.

Jake: Depends how many floods or if a water main breaks.

Miles: Depends which plague we get. Yeah. so, I'm kind of, responding more short term to things like that and like sending things to people in the field, getting things, taking requests for publications that people need more of. and then going out more in the summer to, like, visit places, talk to people, kind of see what the needs are. So those are kind of my two main reasons.

Jake: So, with that, do you have like, an important like what for people who are interested in this type of a job, like is there a skill or something that you would consider that serves you well?

Miles: Yeah. So, I do design, but I also write like almost everything as well inside of the design. And so, I would say writing is a very easy writing and editing. Yeah. So, in that sense, like being able to write well, being able to write in different tones and styles depending on what you're making, like the newspaper, visitor guide that you get at the entrance stations is very just visitor information focused and it has a ton of stuff in it. So, it has to be very concise. So that's one type of writing. It's like plain language guidelines, which is a government thing for basically saying not using huge words and keeping sentences pretty easily understandable. So that's one type of writing. But then like resources and issues, I'm more editing other people, but that's more in depth. Scientific writing and kind of everything in between. So I'd say, right. It's also nice to be able to write your own stuff because when you're designing on paper, everything takes space, physical space on the page. And so, a lot of the time you need to be able to edit space as well. So, it's nice to be able to go back and forth to make things fit or like I'm OCD about columns being all the same length and things. So it's like, I, I want to edit this to be like seven words longer. Yeah, things like that.

Ashton: Detail oriented.

Miles: Exactly. And detail oriented. And then there's the design side of things. I think that's a tough one for me. There are skills you can learn, but I also think there's a certain “je ne sais quoi” that some people have, and some people don't. When it comes to design, but that's an important skill. And then there's all the technical stuff of like, no, we use Adobe products, InDesign, illustrator, things like that. But, you know, something like Figma or Gimp or whatever. All the different open-source things are very similar, but knowing how to run those programs well and do what you need to do, being like proficient and facile in those things. And then I make a lot of maps as well. I guess I wouldn't have to do that. Most people probably will call in on the GIS shop at their park if they have one to do that.

Jake: But you have that skill in your back pocket.

Miles: Yeah. Which is also, again, like the writing is, nice skill to have because you can design for your own space and stuff.

Jake: When I worked, when I so my job before I came to Yellowstone was in Glacier as a visual information specialist, similar to what you were doing, more likely in Rocky. I was very hesitant to write anything, you know, because it's like I that's why I take pictures because I'm not a solid writer and I let my pictures do the speaking.

Miles: Thousand words each.

Jake: Yeah, exactly. I was like, I am a I'm a prolific writer through photography. but when I came here, it was I was able to kind of do the same thing because there were people around me that were writing. But then as I got more into this job and started, you know, changing things like the products that we were making, the cam was asking us like, hey, do this or do that. There was no one to write. And so, you just kind of had to write for yourself. And that is a skill that I picked up. And I would agree, like writing is, it like I didn't I had to do writing in college. But you're like, writing for that is very different than writing for the web or writing or, you know, social media. It's just like it has a different tone and really kind of like getting comfortable in that. So, I would, echo that writing is a really a solid thing to do. And it seems like kind of like a lost. It's not it doesn't seem like it's emphasized as much on like what everything is 180, you know, or 280 characters. So, it's like, that's a skill to try to be succinct, but also like if you need to write more than that, that's a good thing to practice.

Miles: Yeah, yeah. I was an English major in music composition major in undergrad. I think both of those things help and music was harder to explain, but it's similar in a lot of ways I think. Yeah. And also, when I was a seasonal, so when I did seasonal work, I was a guide. Ashton: Okay. Miles: So, I was taking people on hikes and teaching classes and stuff all day long. And I think that has been helpful too, because it's kind of that it's that skill of learning how to take a bunch of information and synthesize it.

Ashton: Yeah so, I'm curious, so in your composition here, what's like the biggest publication or the one that takes the most time and effort or project like, that it takes a while for you to work on.

Miles: Resources and Issues. Yeah, it's a 300-page book. So, I always get the feeling every season that I would like to just start it over from scratch. But then I remember it would be like it would probably take five years, honestly, of full-time work, that in that at least. but yeah, that's the biggest.

Ashton: Yeah, that's a beast.

Jake: That's job security, Miles.

Miles: True. Yeah. That's the biggest by far. Everything else pales in comparison to that.

Jake: So, out of the, you know, the writing, designing, all the kind of things that you mentioned, do you have any of those, like, kind of stand out as your favorite that you like to do?

Miles: Making maps is my favorite, and I love when I get the chance, which is not very often because of time, but I love just like starting something over from scratch. Just like forget that it exists, then make it brand new. So, I guess I would say like what would that be? It's almost like book design. Yeah, kind of like where you're of course we don't choose the fonts because we have the fonts, but your kind of choosing the architecture of things like what kind of columns am I using, and baseline grid and designing all the style and all that kind of stuff, I think is my probably my favorite.

Jake: What's your least favorite? Cause like, that's why they pay us.

Miles: I think my least favorite is just when there's so many things that need doing that sometimes I just need to get done and updated. Yeah.

Jake: Or I should say, what's the most challenging part of your job? And it because it's like you can like everything, but what's, you know, what is the thing that makes it difficult?

Miles: I would say one of the big challenges is this is a big part. There's a lot of information. Yeah. And there's a lot of people who specialize in things, but, like, something like the newspaper visitor guide. I don't even know how many people review it. Like dozens. Yeah. And so sometimes it's coordinating all the different needs of different groups.

Jake: So, it’s herding turtles?

Miles: Yeah. Exactly.

Ashton: Herding turtles…

Miles: I wouldn't say it's difficult, but I also enjoy it because you get to learn a ton about the park. Like you get to learn about, you know,

Ashton: Different perspectives. Miles: All these different subjects and information, but also the different perspectives, like, yeah, the language on a sign for, visitor resource protection or law enforcement purposes is very different from like if you have a sign about fishing or a wayside. The fisheries biologists have a very different goals for that than the people who, like, want to enforce regulations versus the interpretation side of it. So yeah, I enjoy I enjoy it, but that that is definitely a skill that I've had to learn.

Ashton: So, I think that's kind of a perk. Being in like the communications field is you kind of have to be exposed to all these different perspectives. Yeah. Because you're writing, you're editing, you're designing. You know, you kind of have to know a little bit about everything. And I think it helps to be curious.

Miles: It definitely helps to be curious. I also think that there's a lot of things about my job that I've had people say, like, how do you stand that? Or I'm making a thing and there's going to be 200,000 copies printed of it. Pressure of that. And to me I'm like, whatever. So, I think but there's other people, but there's other people's jobs that seem super stressful to me. And they're like, oh, I love it, right?

Jake: Yeah, it's just whatever you're used to, it seems like.

Miles: Yeah. And like what? What you enjoy. So, I would say that's one tip is like find the things that you enjoy that other people don't. That's, that's, that's a good niche.

Ashton: For your niche. Yeah.

Miles: Yeah. Like play instead of trying to improve your, the things you're not good at like play to the things that you're naturally.

Jake: Yeah. Murph he's he likes pumping sludge.

Miles: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Ashton: Yeah. That is pretty niche.

Miles: Yeah. What's your favorite part of your job? And Murph says pumping sludge. Yeah. Sounds like you’re in the right job.

Jake: So, how, like, how do you feel that your job contributes to the to this larger mission that we have here? You know, you don't get to interact with people on a one-on-one basis, but you do. You kind of scratch that itch?

Miles: Yeah, I have sometimes I have to remind myself because I am sitting in front of a computer mostly, and it's a little abstract, as opposed to, you know, when I used to guide 15 people on a hike and you get that immediate person-to-person feedback, but then I remind myself, like four point whatever million people are going to come here every year and probably they're all going to interact with something that I made.

Jake: I think, I think it's safe to say, like almost every person is going to see something that you made. Yeah.

Miles: So, it's almost like my ROI is a lot higher. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jake: So, you like your job? Things are good. Do you have, a defining moment, would you say, like, in your career or something that kind of stands out as to like, oh, man, this is like I made it, or that was a cool thing that you got to make or do or be a part of?

Miles: Good question.

Jake: Thank you.

Ashton: Jake coming with the hard-hitting questions.

Miles: Yeah. The first time I drove into Kantishna, which you can't do right now because the bridges, there's a building, a new bridge, but, my first summer in Denali, I was a guide, and we had to get out to Kantishna, which is the end of the one road, literally, it, like, turns into an airstrip right after the place that I worked back there. That was pretty mind blowing. Yeah, it was a clear day. We're on the road with nobody else. the mountain was totally out, and I was just kind of like. Oh, like… ohhhhh!

Jake: I had the same moment.

Miles: Like an out-of-body experience.

Jake: I say that there are three things that have, like, changed me as a person. You know, that so far. I mean, obviously there can be more, but the first, first time going to Stony Overlook on a clear day and seeing Denali like in the distance, I just like I was just stand there like mind blown.

Miles: Yeah.

Jake: And then the first time I saw the Grand Canyon, because that was also, I was like, I was younger and I was like of the age where I was starting to appreciate things and I was just like, it's just like unfathomably big. Like you can't imagine, like, being the first people to show up and be like, oh, how do we get across this? And then, also seeing that Kilauea Volcano under the Milky Way at night, I remember going there and it was like glowing up into the sky on a clear night. You had the Milky Way, like, arching over it. And again, just like one of those, like, this is so cool that. Yeah, and it's cool that national parks, like, they were all in national parks, like, you know, like out of all the cool things that I've seen that it's just, I mean, it's cool that we get to do this.

Miles: Yeah. I mean, that's what makes it hard to choose is I've had so many. Yeah, over the years. But I mean, I, I did the seasonal job for fun and I, I think I tried to live a normal life one time after that for a few months. I'm like. And I just couldn't do it.

Ashton: Yeah

Miles: Not that there's not that there's anything wrong with it. Just yeah for me I yeah, I got hooked.

Jake: So, for people that are interested in doing this kind of work, let's get into some of the details. Like if someone goes to the USA jobs, what is the series they're looking for?

Miles: Yeah. So, I think a lot of the interviews for this podcast, we've had interesting, weird job titles, but this may be the weirdest. It's traditionally these jobs have been called visual information specialists. It's, 1084.

Jake: Okay.

Miles: I don't know why that's the title of the job, but it encompasses a lot of different things. It can be, gosh, it can range so much what that is. because I've, I've done a lot of digital stuff too. Like at Rocky, I was in charge of all the media, so you can be doing digital stuff, print stuff, audio, video, there's so many things. So that's one of them. But I think there's a movement right now to change a lot of the jobs, if not all of them over to 1001. Is that right?

Jake: Yeah, that's what I am.

Miles: Yeah. So, there's a recognition that visual information specialist is, doesn't quite cover all the things that these types of jobs do. So, there's a, there's a move towards that. And then I would also say there's as you guys know, there's public information and a lot of times almost exact same type of job as my job is advertised under different public information. Yeah. there's also like I said, there's then there's subspecialties, you know, like photography, which in my mind is a subfield of design, or like writer, editor. audio video production specialists.

Jake: That was a job I had, too.

Miles: So, I think, look for, you know, 1084 1001, but also when you're on USA jobs, just search for terms that, apply to what you're interested in in terms of like audio, video or editing or writing. And there's it's kind of all over the place. Yeah.

Jake: And I don't think we've said this yet, but like on OPM, there's a list of all the jobs. So, like the if you go to the OPM website, it's like the 1000 series is all of the like arts, right? So, from like one that like from 1001 to 1099, there's like a bunch of everything that we're mentioning kind of falls in there. And so, it seems like if you're looking for it, you could set, you know, alerts on a variety of those different keys. But it's good to know which ones specifically, if parks aren't flying them in a certain category, then doesn't make sense to, you know, it's a certain alert. You already mentioned all the training that you had, you know, for the design and everything. Is there any other like other than the design aspect and knowing how to run these programs, like, is it required that you have a formal training that you go to school for that, or could you just like, teach yourself how to do this? And you like, you know, a lot of people grow up and know how to use Photoshop and stuff.

Miles: I think you can teach yourself. I mean it a ton of it. I taught myself, I think, like you said, and curiosity is a big one, I think, for these positions. Yeah. Curiosity about different types of design work and, audio. Yeah, all that kind of stuff, but also subject matter. yeah. I did tons of personal projects, you know, like, I'd say I probably did more personal projects than work projects, to get into this kind of stuff, like whenever I was just seasonal, like a ton of photographs and had a blog and made books for friends and family that they didn't want that I thought were cool.

Jake: Yeah. So, it seems like you were interested in being creative and you just happened to find a job that.

Miles: Yeah, it's just fun to do that. Yeah, it's just kind of who I am. Yeah, yeah.

Jake: That's cool. Do you have any advice for people that, you know if they're looking to get into this career? Just general advice.

Miles: Make your own stuff if you have some opportunity to. I definitely know people who've gotten into it who are seasonal or permanent in a different career field, and they are a photographer and they start working on their photography and they get really good at it, or they start writing stuff or, you know, a lot of times I have projects that I need some help with from people out in the field who have that knowledge and they can. It's not volunteering because they're doing their job. But, you know, and generally with parks, with the federal, well, I shouldn't say federal. I just know Park Service. But, you know, you can spend up to 20% of your time on alternate things as long as there. And so definitely I did things like that. And other people in like interpretation or other staff do that as well. You can contribute to project. It's always hard for me to give advice because I just kind of.

Ashton: It is a winding road.

Miles: Yeah. I just yeah, I just kind of did what I was passionate about or interested in and got lucky. And it worked out, though it's hard for me to, to give it a specific advice, but, well, yeah.

Jake: Not so much like advice on like how well, like, what did you do that somebody else could replicate. But just like, what are the things that are going to set people up for success? And it seems like, you know, the things you just mentioned were.

Miles: Yeah, I also would say I have a lot of print knowledge. I don't know how much I would invest in that moving forward for people. but if you if there is something that you can learn that is a little less known or technical in a specific subfield, that can be helpful. Yeah. I would definitely say from now moving forward, people focusing on digital is really a good idea. So not that we write much code or anything, but just like our websites, we're thinking about like user experience in addition to all the other things apps, app design and, and working with databases and things like that is very helpful.

Jake: So, we like to end these with, you know, on a, on a high note where like, what's the fun thing? Do you have a favorite story or memory in Yellowstone or some other park? Like, you know, we kind of already touched a little bit about, you know, going out to Kantishna as the first time. That kind of blew your mind.

Jake: Is there like a non-work-related thing, maybe.

Miles: Yeah. My first summer here when I was, I got really lucky my first summer here because in Tara had over hired but I took a lot of time. I took a lot of those, like, anyone want Friday off? Yes, I do, I did a lot of backpacking, and one of my trips I was, I did Mount Washburn. No wait. Not Mount Washburn Mount Homes, which also had a fire lookout on it at that time. So, the I hiked in, my plan was hike into a meadow the next day, get up, go to the summit, come back, and the next morning get up, hike back out and be done. Kind of break it up. I think it's 20 Miles, round trip. Yeah. so that way I had like five Miles: in ten Miles: round trip, five Miles: out, nice, and nice and calm. And so, I did the night the hike in camped at a backcountry site and the next morning got up and there's like a big meadow right before you kind of get above tree line for Mount Holmes. And if I remember correctly, it has kind of a lot of little, like pothole ponds and things. And so, I was I kind of hiked up. I never done it before. I hiked up over this ridge and saw this big meadow, and there were just a ton of elk with their calves. I think, you know, they get away from the roads, especially at that time of year when the calves are young and things are. And so there must have been, I don't know, I'm going to say like around a hundred or something. And right as I came over the ridge, they were all acting really skittish, and I was really like one person by myself. I don't advocate backpacking by yourself in bear country, but I did.

Jake: Do as we say, not as we do.

Miles: I was young, I wouldn't do it now. My risk tolerance was different anyway, so they were acting really skittish and whatever. And they, they. So, I was hiking along kind of the edge and then they just started running. I was like, wow, I can't believe how skittish they are. Must be with the calves. And then I saw like looked up and there was a grizzly bear running like full speed, which you've never seen a grizzly bear running at full speed. It is, it is something like. It doesn't make sense. They run very fast; I think. What are they, 35 or.

Jake: Yeah. Kerry says like 40ft per second.

Miles: It's crazy. Like it doesn't look real. And the way they run is very odd because they're like very front heavy. they have the big shoulders and the shoulder hump and the big powerful front claws. It's almost like they grab the ground in front of them and just pull the rest of their body forward. And it was trying to chase down an elk.

Ashton: Wow.

Miles: Like a young a young elk, it looked like is probably a year-old elk that it was trying to get. And I was by myself. And it was my first summer and were a national park. And my first summer were in like mountains. And I was just like, whoa! And you could hear it like it was so heavy that you could hear the sound of it running.

Jake: Yeah.

Miles: So, I just kind of backed up against a tree, pulled my bear spray out every bear spray I had, my bear spray took the safety off, had it ready, and they ran like grizzly ran. Gosh, just probably, like, within 15ft of me did not care about me at all.

Ashton: Oh my gosh!

Miles: It was like in pursuit of this elk running uphill. And then they went into the trees, and they turned some kind of corner and came back the other way for other way down towards that meadow. And it ran forward and like sweat, one of the back legs of the elk and got it and got on the got, you know, started taking it down is going to eat it. And I was just like, I think I'm going to keep hiking. So I went, I started going up, you know, and I went up to the top and I got to the fire lookout, and I was really freaked out. And then I was talking to the guy who manned the lookout back then, or the person, the lookout who worked up there all summer. And that's a remote one. You can't drive to it, you know, you get resupplied by a pack animal, I'm pretty sure. And I mentioned, like, what I just seen. And he was like, yeah, there's a guy I got killed at Grizzly Lake a few years ago. And I was just like, don't say this to me. So, I hung out for a little while, and then I hiked all the way back down to my camp, and I packed up all my stuff, and I hiked out the whole way that night because I was just freaked out.

Ashton: Oh my gosh.

Miles: But yeah, that was that was pretty, pretty amazing. We'll never forget that one. Yeah, probably set me up. Well for risk management going forward, I was a lot more, aware of what can happen, which is anything, anything can happen. Which is why it's exciting.

Jake: And for people listening, just a friendly reminder that we encourage people to hike in groups.

Miles: Yes.

Jake: Make a lot of noise.

Miles: Yes.

Jake: Carry bear spray and know how to use it. Those are the that's how to proactively stay safe.

Miles: Yes.

Jake: Well, Miles, thank you for joining us today. It's been, interesting catching up and hearing about your job and what you do and all that.

Miles: My pleasure.

Jake: Ashton, do you have any other final questions for Miles?

Ashton: No, I don't think so. Thanks for joining us, Miles.

Miles: Any time.

Jake: Well, that's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Miles: Barger. If you like What We Do, write and review the show wherever you listen because every positive review helps new listeners find the show. If you have questions or you want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at Go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast. Thanks for listening.

From park newspapers, maps, trail guides, and more, Yellowstone has a LOT of publications. Miles Barger, publications program manager, joins us to talk about his job writing, designing, and managing these dozens of printed materials. We discuss his professional journey since starting as a seasonal housekeeper at Canyon Village, as well as his nail-biting grizzly bear sighting during one of his first hiking trips in the park.

View definitions and links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, publications, visual information specialist, communications, what we do, podcast

April 24, 2024

6. Katy Anderson, Law Enforcement Specialist

Transcript

Transcript

Brett Raeburn: From Yellowstone National Park. This is What We Do. I'm Brett Raeburn.

Ashton Hooker: And I'm Ashton Hooker.

Brett Raeburn: All right. Ashton. First of all, it's great to see you. How's it going?

Ashton Hooker: Good to see you, too, Brett. I'm good. How are you?

Brett Raeburn: Good. I'm awesome. so I have a question for you. Have you ever hitchhiked before?

Ashton Hooker: you know what I don't think I have.

Brett Raeburn: I see the way your face. When I thought you were about to tell me an epic hitchhiking story.

Ashton Hooker: No, no, no, I'm actually surprised I haven't done that, though.

Brett Raeburn: Well, I did some research in the superintendent's compendium, and, hitchhiking is legal within Yellowstone National Park as long as you follow some certain rules. So one of those rules, which is in section five, part 4.31, which I'm sure you read.

Ashton Hooker: By heart, yeah.

Brett Raeburn: All the time. Says that you can you can hitchhike as long as a sign isn't bigger than certain dimensions. Do you know what the max dimensions for your hitchhiking sign would be?

Ashton Hooker: Wow. This is a very niche question. I honestly have no idea, but I'm just going to take a random guess. I'm going to say I can't be bigger than, like, five by five feet.

Brett Raeburn: So five feet. That's a big. That's a really big sign.

Ashton Hooker: I was trying to, you know, go a little bigger than I thought.

Brett Raeburn: That's huge. it's actually it's two, two feet by two feet. So you’re going to have to trim a few feet off that.

Ashton Hooker: That's a more like, normal size of sign.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. So next time you're you're recruiting someone to pick you up for hitchhiking. It just needs to be under that two feet by two feet and you should be good.

Ashton Hooker: Okay, interesting.

Brett Raeburn: if you want to hold a five foot sign, the sign spinners, that might be your, that might be your go to. So our next guest, probably or is a lot more likely than we are to knows section five, part 4.3 of the superintendent. I can't say that superintendents compendium, by heart, because she's the law enforcement specialist here at Yellowstone National Park.

Brett Raeburn: So, Katy Anderson, have you ever cited someone for hitchhiking with a sign, like, if that if Ashton gave them their five foot by five foot sign? Have you ever cited someone for that?

Katy Anderson: No, but I would have definitely stopped and talked to her if she had a five by five sign. I would want her life story. I would want to know her.

Ashton Hooker: That would catch your attention.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. I feel like you don't even need to know the compendium to know that. Like that. That's probably someone you want to talk to.

Katy Anderson: Exactly.

Brett Raeburn: Well, there's always a first time for everything. so I'm guessing. Yeah. And I'm guessing you see a lot of things. Something different every day as a law enforcement specialist. But I want to backtrack a little bit first. before, we get to your current position and talk about where and when you got your start in the National Park Service.

Katy Anderson: Yeah. So thanks so much for having me. my where and when. So my career with the National Park Service began in 2001. as a GS-3 Park Guide at Assateague Island National Seashore in Maryland. living with those wild ponies, which was pretty much a childhood dream being fulfilled right out of the gate.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, that's that's pretty awesome. So was it the wild ponies that that got you to that job, or how did you hear about the Park Service?

Katy Anderson: well, so the Park service go goes way back. for me, I'll have to go many decades back from that. It pretty much goes back to about the late 1950s. when my grandparents jumped on the Ranger three, which is a vessel that takes visitors, from the mainland of Michigan. and takes them out to an archipelago of islands in Lake Superior called Isle Royal.

Katy Anderson: and the island, as it sort of lovingly called by all of us who sort of grew up there, or grew up going there. along with my family, were super instrumental in my formative years in instilling a strong conservation ethic and just, in turn, inherently me knowing that my life work was going to end up being working on preserving wild, and public lands, like Isle Royal.

Brett Raeburn: So did you grow up near Isle Royale then, or just vacation there?

Katy Anderson: Yeah, I, I grew up in northern Minnesota, and so that was, we always kind of came from that Grand Portage side out to the islands. but the island has always been a huge part of my life.

Brett Raeburn: That is that's a big bucket list park for me. I've never not been there.

Katy Anderson: It's incredible.

Brett Raeburn: Have you been there?

Ashton Hooker: no. Actually, I just visited northern Minnesota last fall, but we were there just after the boat. Like, the ferries went out to Isle Royale, so we have to make another trip. I'm definitely bucket list.

Katy Anderson: Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. So. So how did. So you kind of started out with that background of of the conservation ethics kind of being, instilled in you from a young age? and then you got that job at Assateague. How did you as soon as you got that job, were you like, this is what I want to do. This is where I belong.

Brett Raeburn: So it.

Katy Anderson: Yeah, it is. I knew it like growing up. There was no question that this is what I was going to do, the National Park Service. It was just really refining what part of the Park Service I was going to be part of.

Brett Raeburn: And so how did you get from playing with wild ponies to where you are now? What are the the steps and iterations of jobs and units that you've worked at?

Katy Anderson: Yeah. So that is, there are such interesting journeys for us in the National Park Service. for a lot of us, what's neat about the National Park Service is that you can really experience the entire country on a deep level by working in the national parks. Really, from coast to coast. and that's pretty much what I did for those first 15 years, with the Park Service.

Katy Anderson: right after I finished my season at Assateague, I made my way into the heart of DC to work for the Wilderness Society, and I was interning for them, and really just getting amazing exposure to the hill, and really understanding how important the work of the nonprofit world was, but also how it coincided with the, federal government agencies and, you know, decisions being made on the Capitol.

Katy Anderson: And so, spent spent a good chunk of time there. really kind of digging in to, like, how do I get on permanently, permanently with the National Park Service? after I finished up, my DC work, I ended up going up to Acadia National Park in Maine, and spent a fall up there counting raptors, that was another big part of my life growing up.

Katy Anderson: in northern Minnesota, we had big flight migration routes. And so, was an intern up there, a volunteer up there as well, just really kind of starting to build my resume and figure out, how I could get my foot in the door full time. as I learned about, the different types of rangering in sort of the longer I got in, I made my way to the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore, another archipelago of islands in northern Wisconsin.

Brett Raeburn: I used to live in Bayfield.

Katy Anderson: Yes. And exactly. So, you know, the, apostles well. And I dipped my toes in interpretation, and lived out on Stockton Island, and it was just it was an amazing experience. and from there, I put myself through a seasonal academy, which was kind of the norm in, in how to get permanent in the law enforcement ranks.

Katy Anderson: And so put myself through that academy. because I really wanted to be running more of like the adrenaline junkie calls that were kind of coming with rangering. And I really wanted to get in on some of the craziness. and so then I spent the next five years of my career seasonally at Rocky Mountain National Park as a seasonal law enforcement ranger, doing the front country side of things, and then also the backcountry work.

Katy Anderson: I was able to jump in on the search and rescue operations. Really got my first, experience working fatalities and working the family liaison roles. and then also starting and really integrating the other side of my life that had always been so strong for me. And that was, having a horse component, in my career and started my mountain patrols, at Rocky Mountain National Park.

Brett Raeburn: Oh, wow. So you that you've done, like, a lot of things.

Ashton Hooker: [laughing]

Katy Anderson: I have, and that was the seasonal days. and I'll make it brief on the permanent. But the permanents were really neat because that that Rocky experience, and my offseason, I had been doing ski patrol work, full time and had some avalanche background. And so Yellowstone picked me up permanently to be working on Sylvan Pass and, and be doing avalanche control up there as well.

Katy Anderson: So I sort of could bring a skill set of the rangering skills as well as sort of my other, life loves into one into one job and then ran down to Grand Canyon for five years and got some crazy experience down there. and that experience on the South Rim, being a South Rim Ranger for about five years, really built the core of who I am as a person and ranger and supervisor.

Katy Anderson: at this point in time, and then returned to Yellowstone, to the justice, operation and the law enforcement office as the court liaison. And, which I can say is now definitely one of the best jobs I've ever had. and, and into the role that I have now full time as a law enforcement specialist for Yellowstone National Park.

Brett Raeburn: That's awesome. And I guess we should mention to folks that you're joining us remotely. from from Glacier National Park. So you're on a detail currently at Glacier as well, right?

Katy Anderson: I am, yeah. With, within the National Park Service and just federal agencies in general, we're able to do either temporary promotions or details, kind of, where a park unit will borrow you for a period of time and let you get some really good experience. So right now, I'm the acting chief ranger in Glacier, and, filling in a gap a period from when the old ranger, old Chief Ranger retired, and when they get their new Chief Ranger in.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, that's an awesome opportunity to have some of those.

Brett Raeburn: so do you have a typical day, in your position at Yellowstone? I'm guessing not, but but what what is, normal if you had to. You know, I'm doing air quotes for people listening. What's a normal day for you to look like?

Katy Anderson: Completely not normal.

Katy Anderson: You know, it's really interesting. The Yellowstone law enforcement office is super unique in the National Park Service. we've got a full time federal magistrate. So a judge right there, we've got a United States attorney right in the building. We've got a United States marshal, who works on all of our arrests with us and our warrants, and, and Yellowstone cases are all prosecuted in-house.

Katy Anderson: And our sole purpose in, in my operation, is in support of the field, the field staff. So the field rangers who are doing all the patrols and the response to emergency stuff, and really providing our office provides subject matter expertise. We assist you know, search warrants and blood draw warrants on DUI and filling out criminal complaints and really just supporting our partnership in and out of the house.

Brett Raeburn: yeah, that's a lot of different things going on. And I'm guessing it's that, like variety that, that you're seeking. I mean, you talked about being an adrenaline junkie, obviously. You know, you don't seem like you're the type of person that just sits sits down often. You're always out doing stuff. Is the vibe I'm getting from you?

Katy Anderson: Yeah. The operation is a dream for me because it's super dynamic. There's a ton going on, it's slightly out of control. There's a lot, a lot of stuff happening. And, there's always like kind of big balls or big issues floating up in the air that need to be tackled. And, I like that. It's definitely the energy that I like.

Katy Anderson: dealing with stuff at.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Ashton Hooker: And that's something that, you know, not every person is going to thrive in that type of environment. Like what are some things that you do that helps you. Yeah. Juggle all those things that you say is up in the air like what qualities do you need to have to enjoy a job like that?

Katy Anderson: You know, I think there has to be sort of a natural, comfort level with, with multitasking things. And I'm not sure if that's an ADD portion of my universe or something else, but, being able to to ride the waves of chaos a little bit and be okay with that and, and take a left hand turn when you were supposed to take a right hand turn that day like that is absolutely critical.

Katy Anderson: I think it's also super cliche, but, communication, like literally being able to communicate with everyone from defendants, who are sitting in your jail, prisoners to the chief magistrate, judge and beyond is, it's completely mission critical. in our operation, I'm sure 90 plus percent of my day, and my job as a law enforcement specialist is just building trust and bridges with the field and all of our partners through it.

Katy Anderson: Just so much like you cannot overcommunicate in this job.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot. I mean, and, like, the communication can make the difference between, like, de-escalating somebody and escalating somebody. I mean, that can make a huge difference. And and what your day ends up being like.

Katy Anderson: Absolutely.

Brett Raeburn: So so is that your favorite part of the job that that variety that, you know, you just never know what's going to happen doing a lot of different things. Or is there something else.

Katy Anderson: That is a huge part of what makes me love my job? I think if if I was really going to be pinned down on having to say what my favorite part of the my job is sort of in the last decade of my career here, I would say whether we like it or not, the National Park Service is like a giant family, and it needs tending to very similarly.

Katy Anderson: my my favorite part of the job, I think, is probably having really meaningful connections, with my team and my peers, and those many levels above me, and being at a point in my career right now that I'm given some creative liberty to create the type of work environment that fosters those connections. I think that's it's like it's it's so interesting because I think that adrenaline junkies like your younger years, you know, and the older you get, it's just, life is short.

Katy Anderson: And the relationships that you have at work, which is where we spend most of our time and at home, are just so critically important. yeah.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. And that that's been, that's come up a few times in our conversations with people, especially those have like, lived in the interior of the park or like remote areas. It's like that community is so important because that's that's who you're that's who you have. Yes. And so you, you know, you do you do a lot with those people.

Brett Raeburn: You work with them and you know, you have them over to dinner and all those things. And I think that's part of what the it's so special about the National Park Service experience that you just don't get in other jobs.

Ashton Hooker: Yeah. It's not a lot of work environments where you work with your coworkers, and then you also go live in the same neighborhood as them, you know, like they're you're literally your neighbors. Yeah. So that's a big difference.

Brett Raeburn: I know when Jake takes his recycling, I mean.

Katy Anderson: Right, there's.

Brett Raeburn: I can see what I can see what he's been eating for lunch if I wanted to.

Katy Anderson: That's perfect.

Katy Anderson: That is a perfect example of how this works.

Ashton Hooker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Raeburn: so, so on the flip side of that, what's what's the toughest part of the job?

Katy Anderson: You know, similarly, I think I went the first half for two thirds of my career here, I have gone, full blown energy, like I have done things at 1,000% and really kind of gone full send on everything. But, it takes a toll. Like this career is not for the faint of heart. we see a lot of the underbelly and the darker sides of society, and to have to deal like we have to deal with the aftermath of all of that.

Katy Anderson: It is us. We are exclusive jurisdiction here. We don't have, other agencies coming in to sort of take the case from us with it. It is it lays in our hands. Yellowstone sees, you know, 2 to 3 million people in a really condensed portion of the year in the summer there annually. And all of those visitors and those of us living in the park bring our issues and problems and addictions with with them and with us.

Katy Anderson: And so.

Katy Anderson: It's really critical at this stage in my career. And we've seen the aftermath of not sort of dealing with some of that stuff and talking about it that we actively process the cumulative work stress and the trauma. And, thankfully, you know, Yellowstone National Park is at the forefront of supporting their team, with the Yellowstone Resiliency Project.

Katy Anderson: And the National Park Service is, building out some exceptional peer support. Mind body wellness type programs to support us proactively for a fulfilling career, but more importantly, for our well-being the day we retire and beyond. so we're we're we're still coming out whole. And that has been a huge cultural shift that I that has accelerated, I would say, in the last three years.

Katy Anderson: and so the toughest part of my job is that is like the loss that we see through trauma. And, you know, dealt with issues. but also just the light in that is that I've got the opportunity right now with my own career to, like, hyper focus on those things and be part of, shifting a culture nationwide, really.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. That's awesome to hear. I mean, especially, you know, we all take our jobs, home with us somewhat. But in your position and especially I, I'd imagine that that's like one of those things that's really hard to, to not take home. And, you know, I mean, that could really eat away at you if you, if you don't take care of yourself when you're home with your family.

Katy Anderson: Yeah, absolutely.

Ashton Hooker: Yeah. And and you mentioned the Yellowstone Resiliency Project. I'm not sure a lot of people might not know what that is. Do you mind just telling people a little bit about what that entails?

Katy Anderson: Yeah. So the project, came about in cooperation with Yellowstone, I believe, in Yellowstone Forever was was where that, partnership really came about after the Yellowstone flood and, after the loss of some and some coworkers, to suicide and, there was some forward thinkers and, and support from the superintendent's office and the chiefs, to move forward in that partnership to fund mental health resources in Yellowstone.

Katy Anderson: I mean, the most amazing, one of the most amazing parts about living in Yellowstone is it has its remoteness. And, and its disconnect from the rest of the chaos of the world that's happening around us. But the downside to that is we we have a hard time with resources and getting them and and so, the Yellowstone Resiliency Project, has funded bringing in, health care providers for counseling and touch bases and just, connection.

Katy Anderson: So, so we're not kind of going through these big life events and sort of suffering on our own. and there's, you know, bigger conversations that are sort of happening on like, where next? What what next for these programs? but absolutely critical for every division in the park to have this resource to be tapping into and just normalizing the conversations around it.

Katy Anderson: I mean, this is the human experience that we have right now, and nobody is alone in their suffering. We all go through it. and just the pressures of life, you know, create environments that we need to take care of, take care of ourselves and one another. I mean, that's just the reality in the park services. we have to have to take care of one another.

Katy Anderson: So this Yellowstone resiliency project is brilliant. the folks that are working on it have just done an incredible job, implementing it. And we are so lucky to have that team working for us.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, it definitely forward thinking that that was that was the key point I think you brought up there. It's like one of those things that plays dividends. It's it's you're playing the long game when you're investing in people's mental well-being and so that that's awesome. I guess cycling back to kind of, your career, it sounds like you've had a lot of moments that you could probably choose as a defining moment.

Brett Raeburn: Do you have one defining moment that you would say, you know, kind of defined your NPS career or set you on a trajectory or that you can look back on?

Katy Anderson: you know, I, I think about it often is I get asked a lot like, what's the best park you've lived in? What's the best position you ever had? And I can I can honestly say that I am so, like at the core of my being, I am so incredibly proud of every single job that I've had with the National Park Service over the past 23 years.

Katy Anderson: I'm so proud of myself as a GS-3 at Assateague Island. Like, you know, that that I ever even, like, stepped into it and got that job. I would say it all builds on itself. It builds character, it builds, who you are to the core of your being and each of these positions that you're in. And I would say just sort of sitting here in this window now, like watching the snow dump, you know, on Glacier Park, the acting chief ranger in Glacier National Park, right now is one of those highlights.

Katy Anderson: And I feel so honored to have the support from my Yellowstone team. which is like my core team, to take on this role and, have to have this connection now with yet another incredible gem of a park and the amazing people that call this place home.

Brett Raeburn: You have all of these connections to places where people like they're on people's bucket list. Like they're happy to just make it to one of those in a lifetime, and you've got all these special memories at so many. And we all do. I mean, that's that's kind of why we all do what we do, I guess, in a way.

Katy Anderson: So lucky.

Brett Raeburn: That's awesome. Yeah. Since it was such a good answer, I'll let you get away with. I technically said you had to have one defining moment, so. But I'll let you get away with it because it was like it was a really good answer.

Katy Anderson: But if you know me, there's never one I always juggle at least three things.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah, I'm the same way.

Ashton Hooker: Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: so. And this is, this is a pretty, you know, probably a more straight connection than, than some of the other, people that we've interviewed. But how does your job contribute to the Park Service mission? so, you know, the Park Service mission, is kind of drives everything that we, that we do, and it's at the forefront of our minds every day.

Brett Raeburn: But. So how does your job, contribute to that?

Katy Anderson: I would say, it takes it takes a massive village of committed public servants to come anywhere near fulfilling the mission of the national park Service. I am just a cog in the wheel. But at the core, I. I truly believe that my work is super meaningful and impactful. and I feel that every single day, whether it's helping the field Rangers with a complex victim case as we run the victim program, victim witness program in my office or supporting the, you know, the prosecution of a significant poaching case, I, I love my job.

Katy Anderson: And, you know, I've heard people say that, like, you shouldn't love your job because it'll never love you back. And I just am unconvinced of that. And I think you need to find deep joy in the work that you're doing and think, believe truly that that it's, making an impact is for the greater good. And I never question that, no matter how hard my days are.

Katy Anderson: I know that, like, I'm giving back way bigger than I'm getting, and I'm totally okay with that.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. That's awesome. And someone has to keep Ashton with her five foot by five foot hitchhiking sign.

Ashton Hooker: You gotta keep me in check.

Brett Raeburn: On the right side of the law.

Katy Anderson: Unreasonable, Ashton.

Ashton Hooker: Hey, I went big.

Brett Raeburn: So? So for those those of people who are listening to this and are just like, wow, that sounds like an awesome job. Like me, like I'm like, wow, that sounds like so, so what what series do I look at in USA jobs to to do what you're doing?

Katy Anderson: Yeah. the series that that fly, that post, on USA jobs, which is where I work, which is where all of our, you know, federal jobs are posted is 0025. So right now that's the Ranger series. and, you know, at some point there may be a shift in that, but right now, 0025 Park Ranger law enforcement is what, folks would be looking at in USA jobs.

Brett Raeburn: And is it is at the same series for like all the positions kind of working their way up the ladder?

Katy Anderson: Yeah, it is everything from your field level law enforcement GS-5, all the way up into your Chief Ranger positions.

Brett Raeburn: Awesome. That makes it easy. I feel like a lot of times it jumps around and gets complicated, and it's hard to keep track of all those numbers. So 0025 is the one to remember. and do you need formal training, to, to get that like GS-5 position.

Katy Anderson: You do. There's a couple. Oh, a couple routes now, kind of the old way is where we would put ourselves through a seasonal academy. A law enforcement academy, that's connected with the National Park Service. And then you would apply to seasonal positions like summer positions. This last year, a new system, a direct hire initiative was sort of started.

Katy Anderson: And, we're hiring things a little bit differently. So, in that case, a couple times a year, there's announcements that are flown nationwide for the National Park Service, law enforcement positions. either way, you'll spend a significant amount of time at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glencoe, Georgia. and and then in a field training park as you build a foundation to your law enforcement career.

Brett Raeburn: How long are you in that field training park for?

Katy Anderson: It the field training park? is I gonna think about how many weeks...I think it's 13 weeks. I'm kind of talking off the cuff here, but, and sometimes that's your home park. Yellowstone is. We're really lucky. We're one of those parks to have a field training park, in and staff in place that can field, field train folks in person.

Ashton Hooker: and what's the kind of stuff that, people are exposed to in that training? Like what could if somebody is interested in going through that, like, what would they expect to be exposed to?

Katy Anderson: Yeah. You know, I think, it just kind of ties into, to another portion of some of the questions at the core of these jobs, we are federal law enforcement officers. Like, that is the core of what we're doing. And so, for example, FLETC, the federal law Enforcement Training center, they do foundational like basic, basic law enforcement training.

Katy Anderson: So everything from some people's first day on the firearms range, with your pistol and your shotgun and your, rifle to patrol tactics, like, how do I literally drive my police car? How do I do high speed, high speed, pursuit kind of chases? how do I care for victims in in cases? how do I physically maintain my fitness and show that I can, you know, ground fight with somebody that I'm going to need to go hands on with in my career?

Katy Anderson: How do I handcuff somebody? What are my arrest procedures? So it really takes you through, all of the basics of how to be a cop.

Brett Raeburn: yeah. So it's like a good crash course then.

Katy Anderson: And. Yeah, you make it or you don't. It's. Yeah, a crash course. You have to have the mental space and be really there to want to do it because it's, it's not all fun and games at all.

Brett Raeburn: Sure, sure, sure. I bet you you build some really strong connections with the people that you go through that with, kind of like, you know, boot camp or something.

Katy Anderson: Absolutely.

Brett Raeburn: Well, before we let you go, Katie, do you have we like to ask this of everybody because it's just fun for us. And we I come up with more things that I want to do in my summer vacations. But do you have a favorite story or a memory? It doesn't have to be from Yellowstone. any National Park Service unit that you visited or worked at, do you have a favorite story?

Katy Anderson: I, it's going to come from Yellowstone, and I don't know if it's a specific story. I think what I would say is this kind of speaks to the specialness of living in these places. living in Yellowstone is like being a National Geographic episode every day. And, and I would say it's, amplified when you live in the interior, which I've lived in several times, and I don't now.

Katy Anderson: But, what I would say is you can almost gauge the rhythms of the year, like the seasons of the year by the flow of the wildlife and the thoroughfares and the tracks that they are, walking and, you know, just this season, right now, as I'm not in Yellowstone, I'm in Glacier, and I don't have the bison out my window.

Katy Anderson: I, you know, I'm starting to wonder if, you know, if the cow bison right now with their big swollen bellies, if they're starting to make their way towards Mammoth Hot Springs and down to their calving grounds. And that always is like my sure sign that spring is coming. And I just think that's just one of the most incredible parts about living in Yellowstone, is that you can just, it feels very prehistoric to be living there with them.

Katy Anderson: And just watching these, these old rhythms just float by like we are truly just there in somebody else's world, and, we're just guests. It's amazing.

Ashton Hooker: Yeah, yeah, that's pretty special.

Brett Raeburn: Yeah. I love being in a place where it's like. Like, like you said, there's connections to, like, the natural world. Like the bluebirds are like. I heard a blue bird, you know, spring is coming, and everyone's just as excited as you are.

Ashton Hooker: Yeah.

Brett Raeburn: Some places people will be like, what the what?

Ashton Hooker: that's that's awesome.

Brett Raeburn: Well, well, thank you so much for for joining us and taking the time. I, I know I speak for all of us, but we thank you all for your service. And thank you for keeping us safe. I know I live, like, literally all of my neighbors are law enforcement rangers, so I just feel like the safest person whenever I'm out and about my home.

Brett Raeburn: so thank you all for. For what you and your, your team do, day in and day out.

Katy Anderson: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you.

Brett Raeburn: All right. That's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Katie Anderson. If you like what we do, rate and review the show wherever you listen. Every positive review really helps new listeners find the show, so thanks for doing that. If you have a question or want to learn more about particular job, contact us using the form at go nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast.

Brett Raeburn: Thanks for listening.

Katy Anderson always knew she wanted to work in national parks. From visiting Isle Royale National Park in Lake Superior as a child to eventually working at a variety of parks across the country, Katy talks about her experience pursuing a law enforcement career with the National Park Service. Today, Katy joins us virtually from her temporary detail as acting chief ranger at Glacier National Park in northern Montana.

View definitions and links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, law enforcement

April 17, 2024

5. Jason Murphy, Water & Wastewater Utility Systems Facility Manager

Transcript

Transcript

Jake: From Yellowstone National Park. This is What We Do. I'm Jake Frank. Brett: And I'm Brett Raeburn. Jake: Hi, Brett. Brett: Hey, how’s it going? Jake: I’m great. How are you? Brett: I'm good. I had a good weekend. Jake: Yeah? That's good to hear. Hey, how are your pipes in your house doing? You like that transition? [laughter] Jason: Have you flushed your toilet today? Brett: My pipes, I think they're. I think they're good. Do you know something I don't know? Jake: No, I just wanted to, that was the best transition that I could come up with, Brett: That was terrible. I’m not going to lie. Jake: I have a trivia question, actually, I want to ask you. Brett: Okay. Jake: All right. So, Yellowstone, we’re a big park, 2.2 million acres, 4.5 million people roughly visit the park every year. We have a lot of infrastructure in the park that's hidden to support all that visitation. Part of you know, those systems are water and wastewater systems in the park. So how many combined between the, you know, making clean water and then making dirty water clean, if you combine those two systems, how many of those are in the park? Brett: Like pipes? The number of systems? Jake: No, the number of systems, the number of total systems. Yeah, you don't have to it's not like, you know, miles of pipe or anything. Brett: OK, that’s what I was trying to anticipate. Jake: Because they're located all throughout the park. So, if you were to count the total number, how many of their across the park? Brett: Fifteen? Jake: There are 23 wastewater systems and 21 water systems. So, a combined 44. Brett: So, I wasn't even close. Jake: It's a lot. It's like and, and this is like something that I had no clue about until when I started, you know, working with the facilities team to document all of our infrastructure, you know, from like the GAOA projects and putting in money to improve our infrastructure. It is unbelievable how much infrastructure there is. And it's all hidden like no one sees it, but it's by design. It's all, you know, behind the trees and whatnot. Brett: So, do we know how many feet of pipe there are in this park? I really want to know that now. Jake: I have no idea. But maybe, I guess maybe our guest today, Jason Murphy, he's the utility systems facility manager for our water and wastewater systems. Do you know that answer? Jason: The exact number to the top of my head? Brett: To the centimeter to the millimeter. Jason: So, between water and sewer, it's thousands. Jake: Yeah. Jason: There are over 500 manholes that one sticks in my head from that spec sheet. Brett: Wow. Jake: Yeah, that is crazy water. Brett: That's a lot. Jake: Well, speaking of water and wastewater and manholes, how are you today? Another great transition. Jason: It is a very great transition. I am fine. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us today. Brett: How are your pipes? Jason: My pipes are good. Yeah, toilets are flushing. Great. Jake: That's a win. So, you know, why don't we just kind of dive in? How did you get into the Park Service? Did you start in the Park Service? Or, like, even before then, Jason: Just how did you get my first park Service job? I applied as a summer seasonal in 2001, and I was picked up as a wage grade three garbage truck operator and not the driver, but I rode the garbage truck we had ride along garbage trucks in Canyon. Then we had about 300 of those swinging bears cans and I rode the garbage truck for that summer, picking up garbage in Canyon. Jake: That seems like a fun job. Jason: It was very fun to do. Brett: Like on the outside, like you're the one hanging out? That is cool. Jake: That's like the one that all the little kids want to be when you grow up. Jason: Correct. Yeah, we've taken that away. Now we have mechanical arms that do that, but it was a very fun job. Jake: They always got to ruin all the fun stuff. Yeah, so. Jason: Can't hang on the back of a truck around town. Jake: Yeah. There's somebody probably got seriously injured and then that. Brett: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. Jake: So, how did you find that job? How did you hear about, you know, how did you even know to apply? Jason: Friends at University of Montana who came down here and work for YCR as seasonals? Jake: Okay. Jason: And they were like to apply for these jobs. Jake: And so, are you from the area? Did you go to school here? Jason: We were living in Missoula at the time. I grew up in Buffalo, New York, but we had moved out in 98 to Missoula and just met some folks that, you know, had been coming down and working seasonally for the Park Service. And the housing was a very big draw at that point that you could get a job that came with housing. Jake: Yeah, In Yellowstone. Jason: In Yellowstone. Jake: Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So, you know, between, hanging off the back of a garbage truck and your current position, there's probably a few jobs in between those two jobs? Jason: There are a few in between, yes. Jake: Yeah. What you want to walk us through that? Jason: Well, you know, my father was in the utility stuff, so I kind of grew up with some of that, at least in the collections and distribution side of things. So, I had known about it. And then in between that summer season and kind of, you know, still as a seasonal working for, you know, doing the ski school thing in the winter and then coming back. It was even back then it was recruitment and retention for water and wastewater operators was tough. The people came and came and went pretty regularly, even going all the way back into the late nineties. So, I kind of saw that there was there was a way to get in there. Then I did then do a little stint for the Department of Defense in Germany, working for the Army for a few years in early 2002 through 2004 or 2005 when we came back, and I've been here ever since then, and it was kind of that on the job training, you could get in, do some correspondence courses, grab some certifications and then get in the door that way. And that was pretty much the easiest way to get a permanent job in Yellowstone. Jake: Yeah, so we've done a handful of these interviews now and it's at the consistent thing is like I think that John Cataldo said move at the speed of opportunity is that it's just kind of being in the place and being willing to learn some new thing and then take advantage of it. Jason: Yeah. I didn't leave. [laughter] Jake: Yeah, yeah, yes. That is another way is just to plant your roots. Okay. So, in your current job, so as the utility systems facility manager, do you have a typical day and like or a time of year or like, like what does your job look like? Jason: Well, let's be honest, there hasn't been any quite typical day since June 2023. Jake: What happened then?!? Jason: There was a flood. Jake: There was a big flood, yeah. Jason: Yeah. So I've been pretty wrapped up in that project, getting the wastewater plant up and running here in Mammoth, which it's been up and running since July of, did I get the date mixed up? It was 2022. Jake: Yeah. So, for folks that don't know, we had a big flood in June of [20]22 that washed away one of our roads and in that road was a wastewater line that would take our sewage from Mammoth out to the town of Gardiner, [MT] where it was processed. And then when that line severed, we basically had to build a temporary wastewater facility in Mammoth. Jason: We resurrected a facility from the it was last used probably in the late sixties, within a matter of 48 hours after we lost the main line down to Gardiner. Brett: It's like a zombie facility. Yeah, came back from the dead. Jason: There's a lot of chainsaws and weed whackers out and things to YCC and a bunch of other folks and fire crews for getting some stuff cleaned up and we were able to utilize some existing infrastructure actually to great success for a while to keep the community of Mammoth here. And then over the course of that, that year, I got those dates mixed up. So, June 2022 to July 2023, build a biologically processing wastewater treatment facility here in Mammoth. Brett: It wasn’t on your radar either, as I was just like, by the way, Jason: Not on the radar. Brett: But this is a new thing that you have to do starting now. Jake: Yeah. And, you know, living in and living in lower Mammoth, looking down and seeing that thing go up and just the how fast, you know, there's always speed bumps in the road. But I mean, with the government building things like building a wastewater facility in like less than a year isn't a typical timeline. Jason: No, no. Jake: Yeah. So, so I'm guessing that that's been your primary thing to take care of? Jason: Yeah. Yep. Being on site. There's a few other folks like Molly or Parks civil engineer who's very critical in getting that up and running. We got great support from Denver Service Center and then the contractors and stuff that stepped up to get it all going. Jake: So, with, you know, all of the things that you're mentioning, is there like a skill set that you have that you found that has like kind of allowed you to be the most successful in your position? Jason: I feel like I'm pretty adaptable. Flexible. Kind of got to roll with the punches. And you need to be creative and use what you have around you. Like I said, those you know, there are some folks here who have been here for a while. So, when the flood happened, we reached out to a few a few people that have been here for a while and they were like, You do this and you got to have a good network of people to get all that information across and then implement. So being able to strategize quickly and then implement that, that plan and that's kind of the general thing with utilities is stuff's going to happen and you're going to need to figure it out kind of on the fly. And, you know, you don't always have those parts on the shelf or even whatever it is, if it's a water main break or something like that. You've got to really be able to react quickly but yet systematically and approach to keep everyone safe and to get the job done. Brett: Yeah, that's one it's one of those things do that's like everyone's looking at you are waiting for you to figure it out too, because they're like just holding their pee over there, waiting to use the toilet again. Jason: Yep, yep. Brett: It's a high stress. Jason: And I think the park had a great, a great team response to from the whole flood that I don't think anyone was holding it too much. Jake: I had my wag bags ready. Jason: Right. You bust out the groover, we're going, we're going on a raft trip. But no, that that's pretty much it. And then generally work with outside partners, EPA, rural water associations for both Montana and Wyoming, Wyoming DEQ. There's this position here in with Molly and the civil engineer for the park. We work a lot with Denver Service Center, and it is kind of that kind of position where you're balancing between the regulatory agencies. Wyoming is the only state in the nation that did not take primacy over drinking water. So, we get the fun of we work with EPA for Drinking Water Region eight and then Wyoming DEQ for wastewater. But in Wyoming, DEQ who also has everything to do with construction and permitting and things like that. Jake: So that's also a benefit. But the majority of our infrastructure is in Wyoming, right? Jason: Correct. Jake: Like we do have a little bit, that does bleed into Montana, but the majority of its Wyoming. So do you have a favorite part of the job? Like what? What do you wake up and enjoy doing? Jason: I like pumping sludge. Yeah, that's kind of like my favorite part of when I when I get to get out of the office or, you know, those kinds of things. Pumping sludge is very rewarding. Brett: Do you put that on like the calendar on the days that you get to do that? Today I’m pumping sludge! Jason: We’re doing that a lot more than we ever have at this new treatment facility. Brett: So, it'd be a good day. Jason: Closure of the wastewater loop. Jake: So where does the sludge go? Jason: Right now, it's going to the compost facility at the landfill in Logan. Jake: Okay. Jason: And they'll use it. They use it in the landfill. They mix it with woodchips and most of the municipal wastewater treatment facilities in the area, Livingston, Bozeman, even Three Forks and some of the other ones, they all use the compost facility too. So, they use it in as they layer things in and when they close cells and in between intermediate stuff in the cells, they put that layer of that material and mix it with woodchips and other things like that. Jake: So, if pumping sludge is your favorite part of the job, what is your least favorite part of the job? [laughter] Jason: That's a loaded question. [laughter] Jake: What are some of the challenges that you face in your job? Jason: That's a that's a better way to ask. Jake: Yeah. Jason: I think right now recruitment and retention is definitely a challenge. Finding certified operators nationwide is a challenge. I think through that, whatever happened a couple of years ago, we don't want to talk about the pandemic. Jake: Yeah. Jason: We did lose a lot of that knowledge base and some of those older operators. And we're struggling as a as a profession nationwide from coast to coast. Jake: Well, and you mentioned that even in your, you know, when you were at Canyon doing garbage, that you noticed that it was hard to recruit and retain people back then. Is that is that just like do does anybody have an idea as to why that is that just like the hazards of the profession and or is it? Jason: Yeah, I think you know, it seemed kind of clear back then that, you know, people with families being someone who has experience that staying in the interior of the park and that remote duty station is difficult. Brett: No pun intended. Jason: No pun. Yeah. D-o-o-d-I that that's just a struggle. You know, even when we had children and that was kind of my exodus from the interior after being out there for eight, nine years was, you want to be home and that makes it difficult. Brett: Can you kind of go into why like, what are some of those difficult things that. Jason: Yeah, the school. Brett: Yeah. I mean what does that look like getting your kids to school or homeschool. Jason: Yeah that, that was not an option. [Laughter] Yeah, I could see like, kindergarten. We could do blocks and, you know, music and all the fun stuff. [laughter] Yeah, no. Brett: Teach me trigonometry. Jason: My wife worked for the park for 20 years. Yeah. So, we didn't. We decided not to do that. She was here in Mammoth time, and I was able to come into Mammoth and work out of the plumbing shop for about ten years, doing some HVAC stuff and just all kind of project work and things like that before this position came up. Jake: So now that you're, you know, the in your facility manager position and you're, I'm guessing you supervise a handful of people. Jason: Yes. Jake: With all those challenges and trying to recruit and retain people, I mean, why do you, why do you stay here? What keeps you at the National Park Service? Jason: Well, I've always loved being here, so I feel like that's as far as recruitment goes, when you're looking for people who want to be here, you want wherever they are, whatever job it is. If you're in, you know, Michigan or Florida or North Carolina, I would think anybody you're recruiting for any job, you want the person to want to be where they're at, at least at that time. So, I've always wanted to be here. I was in love with the park. To be honest. I was in love with the skiing in the park for a long, long time. I still am. But you just don't have that kind of say. Brett: That's sounds past tense. Jason: Well, you know, life, healthy kids, there's adulting. [laughter] So. Yeah. And just the idea of and I always thought this might sound a little cliche, but you're you get to do some of that mission statement stuff the stewardship model take Canyon wastewater treatment plant for example. It's the only treatment plant in the park that discharges directly into the Yellowstone River. So, I always thought, even going back to 20 years ago, that you had a part of that kind of responsibility and stewardship. And plus, you're doing a little bit science. There's some science to it. And I just thought that was the best part of working in the park. And you can only, you know, I was never going to be in our REYP or anything like that. So, it was just for me, it was part of that. You could see that in the mission. Jake: Yeah. Jason: Well, relate to it. Jake: And you know, 2001 is when you said you got your first job here, is there between then and now, has there been some point in your career that you kind of identified as like a turning point or a defining moment that you're just like really stands out to you? Jason: I think there's a lot and, you know, not to talk. The flood was definitely one last year, two summers ago. Now, I think a defining moment was, you know, getting that first permanent job because that was a roller coaster and then even progressing up and moving from the interior to Mammoth up, that was a big deal in that. Jake: Yeah, because that's like the whole everything other than work. It is improved by being up here, not the logistics of with your kids. And you know, things like that. Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was when the skiing stuff. Brett: Yeah, yeah. So, I guess I'm in some ways improved and in some ways, yeah, yeah, Jake: Yeah. I do get that. And that's like, that's a cutting edge that cuts both ways. Like it's super fun to be in the interior in the winter. You have access to all this stuff. But then on the flip side of the coin, you got to get on the snowmobile and drive to the store. Jason: But I think it's important though, that we make sure that people know that the interior life in the winter is not, it's manageable. You know, if you don't make a grocery list now, you if you come and you work in the interior, you might want to start working on your grocery list. Brett: Can't forget eggs. Jason: Can't forget. Yeah. You know, there's just a little bit there's another level of logistics and organization that goes to it. But I, I loved it. It was and that was a hard part of moving. Jake: Yeah. Jason: You know, I kind of felt like I was abandoning something that I really wanted. I always wanted, even when we were in Germany working, I was always like, okay, this is great. Europe. We're traveling. Brett: Eating schnitzel. Jason: Yeah, we get to go to Croatia on our day and on our trips or wherever it was, but I was always like, All right. And then the supervisor at the time, he would call my mom like, is he coming back? No, he's not coming back yet. And so, when I when we decided to pull the plug, it was just a phone call was like, okay, I'm ready. Come back. And they welcomed us back here with open arms and a lot of mosquito bites. Mary went down to the south entrance. [laughter] Not a lot of mosquitoes in Germany that was. Brett: Not a lot of bugs in general, probably. Jake: So, you know, we're mentioning like recruitment, retention, finding the right kind of person. So, say that there are people listening right now that are interested in this type of career. If they were to try to find this job on USA Jobs, what are they what are they looking for? Like, do is there a job series like that you're hiring for typically that, you know, Jason: We are typically we're hiring for its utility systems repair. I believe the series is 4742. Jake: Okay . Jason: We do we do hire we have some higher graded positions that are open right now that would come with, you know, being more certified at the beginning. But more and more, we're opening positions that are entry level positions we hope to do, you know, in this recruitment push, we hope to do some other things. I don't want to, you know, say things and never be able to implement them. Brett: So, yeah, this is recorded. [laughter] Jason: So then I, like you said you would do you get this huge in this one. Yeah. But I think we want to get creative and you know and work and talking to Wyoming rural water last Friday and just reach out and try to come together with other organizations that are having the same problem and try to just pull together and work through this because this is this is a nationwide kind of thing for us. Jake: Well, and it's one of those things it's one of those professions that no one notices it until something isn't going right. And when it is going wrong, it's really bad. Jason: Right. Jake: Like it's like an emergency type of a thing. So, yeah. Do you have any advice for people, like if they wanted to get started in this, you know, like if they have their certifications and everything, it sounds like they would just apply for a job because somebody is brand new. Like what? What, what are they? Start with. Jason: I think you could start with, you know, like this. It's going to, you know, that it. Even that quick Googling like water, Environmental Federation or American Waterworks Association starting with that, I feel like a lot of things just start with that. That basic research and then reach out. Every community has people that do this. Brett: Everyone has waste. Jason: Everyone has water and wastewater, you know, and I'm sure you've noticed somewhere driving around your town, you've seen somebody in a truck, Department of Public Works truck, Yellowstone has municipal features. We operate, we plow roads, we make water, we do wastewater. I would encourage people to start there, go to a water and wastewater district board meeting, meet people, get in that way with your local folks. There's a lot of people right now nationwide trying to start intern programs or apprenticeship programs or things like that. I would be really surprised if your local high school biology teacher or doesn't have or knows some way to get a hold of somebody in your community that knows the water and wastewater guy or gal. Jake: Yeah. Brett: And going on a tour like I went on tour of a wastewater treatment plant, and it was like fascinating. Like I didn't really know what I was getting into, but it was like, I want to know more about how this actually did. Do you have like a, like a really nutshell presentation of how that process works? Jason: Yeah, it all depends on the treatment facility, right. Or whatever. If it's for wastewater, if it's a biological or mechanical treatment facility, water what the source is, is it groundwater, is it surface water, those kind of thing. Jake: So, pick, pick one and like it sounds like we have all the flavors in Yellowstone. Brett: That's kind of interesting. Jake: Yeah. So, if you just say, what's the most complicated one? What's the what's the wastewater facility here that's giving you the hardest time? And like, kind of explaining? Jason: Well, I think we deal with we deal with some of the aged infrastructure that gives us a hard, harder, harder time. I think some of the ideas behind, you know, you turn it off and you turn it on every year that wears on a system more than the thought of maybe, well, you only use it six months out of the year. It should last double the time. Jake: Yeah. Jason: No, you know, and just in the in the learning of bring in this facility here in Mammoth online, it's a more modern treatment process than we have anywhere in the Park Service, you know. Teton We went down to Teton, Patrick Larson down at Teton has an MBR down there at Moose. That he's had, they've had probably maybe inside ten years. We went down there, and we talked to him and we learned about some of that. And I think what was good for us is we had that Great American Outdoors Act push already going. So, we had a lot of this stuff in the lake. We had a year under our belts, a planning for building Old Faithful in Grant Village and Canyons. So, we had some of that experience with the engineering firms already to kick this off the ground. Jake: But and one of the things I learned, you know, going out with you guys is when you said aging infrastructure, a lot of our facilities were put in like 40 or 40 plus years ago. Jason: Right. Jake: And what's the average lifespan of a facility? Jason: Well, I think that the average lifespan of a facility is if it was maintained. And we've we some we've struggled with that for a whole host of reasons. But I, I struggle with the idea of putting a number on it. Jake: Gotcha. Jason: You know, like, I don't, I don't want to say, you know, it's going to last for 50 years. It's going to last as long as we needed to last if we take care of it. Jake: Yeah. Jason: We're lucky here. We're not in a situation like a municipality that's going to put in another 15,000 homes. So, we don't we can cap our capacity for the most part. So, we don't need to worry about having another million gallons of capacity when we might do some lodging updates and infrastructure, stuff like that. But we're not going to have those same issues as a municipality, like a like a Bozeman or somewhere. Jake: But even like so if these facilities were put in 40 or 50 years ago, visitation was much lower. And where the facilities kind of built that there was room to grow them or are we kind of now we run everything even from my time here, everything that's on. Jason: When it's on, I always go back to the campgrounds were full in 2001 when I showed up and the lodging was full. In 2001 when I got here, right? Jake: Yeah. Jason: That those plants were operating the same way then as they are now. They're on their, you know, 14 hours a day or 24 hours a day. They're running, they're running at that their capacity that they were designed for. Jake: Gotcha. Well, yeah, admittedly so this is an anecdote that I like to say. When I was a little kid, you know, you'd always drive by the wastewater plant, and you'd get the smell. My mom's like, that's the wastewater plant. And in my mind, I thought it was like the pipes dumped into, like a plant with, like, leaves. [laughter] And there was like, a plant that just, like, absorbed in the waste. And I was like, Wow, that's a really cool plant. Like, just like trees. They take the carbon dioxide out of the air. Brett: The plants don't like tomato plants grow out of the sludge because we can't, like, process tomato seeds or something. Or am I just like a dream. That's a weird thing to think. Jason: No, I've heard something along those. But I mean wetland treatments is a very real process. Brett: Yeah. Jason: I mean, so it's not far off. Jake: Thank you for thank you for not making me feel like. [laughter] Brett: He's winking at us because you guys can't see it. But he's like, we’ll make Jake feel better. Jake: Yeah. So, the last question we like to ask everybody before they go is, do you have like a favorite story or memory in Yellowstone or some other national park that just like a fun thing to share with our listeners? Jason: I just think I was really lucky for the better part of 12 years to have my family here, raise my kids here in the park and just have that have that experience. But I feel blessed to have gotten to where I'm at today and I look forward to, you know, taking the challenges head on and getting to where we're going to go tomorrow. And then all those great powder days at Canyon over the course of nine winters are always in the back of my head. Brett: Do you think your kids, like, fully grasp the fact that they grew up and like, that's not normal? To get to grow up in Yellowstone. Jason: Yeah, I think I do, actually. Yeah, I think they do. But, you know, as much as a teenager can grasp. Brett: Yeah. Jason: I mean, she didn't have a phone then, so. [laughter] Brett: Yeah, those are those like icebreaker things that I think they can be like. I grew up in Yellowstone, you know? Yeah. Good story. Jake: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and talking about water and wastewater with us. It's one of those things that I, again, getting to go out with you guys and your team and seeing what you do. It's really very interesting. Also, I think everyone in Mammoth and the hotels and everybody that's here, like the fact that we can even be here because you guys got that facility up and running as fast as you did. We really appreciate that as well. Jason: Appreciate that. Thank you. It took a lot of people. Jake: Well, that's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Jason Murphy. If you like What We Do, write and review the show wherever you listen, because every positive review helps new listeners find the show. If you have questions or you want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDo. Thanks for listening!

You might not think much about it whenever you flush a toilet or turn on a faucet. But for Jason Murphy, utility systems facility manager, that’s his job! In this episode, Jason talks about what it’s like managing some of the 44 water/wastewater systems in the park, how he and his team have been repairing systems damaged by the 2022 flood event, and he offers tips for listeners interested in pursuing a similar career.

View definitions and links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, facilities, maintenance, utility systems

April 10, 2024

4. Brian Batzloff, Engineering Equipment Operations Supervisor

Transcript

Transcript

Jake: From Yellowstone National Park. This is What We Do. I'm Jake Frank. Miles: And I'm Miles Barger. Jake: Miles, how’s it going? Miles: Going great. Jake: Yeah? Miles: How are you? Jake: Good. How was your, how's your drive to work today? Miles: Very short. [laughter] Jake: Yeah. how are the roads? Miles: Very clear and in excellent condition. Jake: That's good to hear. Miles: Honestly. Yeah. Jake: So, speaking of roads to start, I have a trivia question. I'm curious if you. I would say this is on the easier of some of the questions that we've been hearing. Miles: OK. Jake: Do you know how many miles of road are in Yellowstone National Park? Miles: 475? Jake: That's very close. 452, I think, is the number that I've been given from facilities. And some of the reports that I've read. Yeah. 450 plus. That's roughly the distance between like DC and South Carolina, Charleston as the crow flies. So, it's like multiple states. So, it's a lot of, a lot of roads that are in the park that we maintain. Miles: In harsh condition. Jake: In harsh conditions. On a volcano. No big deal. Jake: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's either, it's either burning the road away or it's frozen and under snow. Miles: Or both. Jake: Or both. Yeah, so to talk a little bit about that, you know, I think when people come to the park, they just drive on the roads. You kind of take that for granted. But there's a lot of a lot of work that goes into keeping those up to date. So today we're joined, by Brian Batzloff. He's in the engineering equipment operator supervisor for the Special Projects crew. Did I get that correct? Brian: You got that correct. Jake: All right. Well, thanks for joining us. Brian: Thank you. Jake: Yeah. How are you? Brian: Thanks for having me. Jake: How was your drive to work today? Brian: It was wonderful. Yeah. Jake: When the roads are in bad shape and you're like, man, that pothole. What happens in your mind when you're driving to hit a pothole? Brian: I try to figure out why. Why it's there. Jake: Who do I need to call to get this fixed? Brian: Exactly. Jake: So, Yeah, we'll go ahead and get started. When and where did you get your start in the National Park Service? Brian: Here in Yellowstone, actually. I got my first job here in 1998. I was a carpenter's helper in the carpenter shop here in Mammoth. And then that was my last year of college. And then I went back to school, tried out some telecom work for a little bit in Atlanta, Georgia, and then decided I wasn't a city person. So, I came back here. My family's from the area. You're right outside the North Entrance, so I'm actually a third generation to work here in Yellowstone. Jake: Oh, that's awesome. Brian: My dad, my grandfather both worked up here in the park, on both. Actually, my grandfathers on both sides. Jake: What? Miles: Whoa! Jake: Wow. So, what jobs did they do? Brian: So, my grandfather, ironically, he at one time held my position for a short time. [laughter] I didn't know that until recently when I was going through some of my dad's stuff. And I've actually found his old nameplate from his door on there. So, I have it in my office now. Jake: Oh, that's so cool. Brian: But no, he started. He came, I believe, in the 50s, you know, shortly after World War II, after he got out of there and he came with his uncle at Yellowstone and started his career out in Grant village, and then kind of worked his way into Mammoth here. And then I think when he retired, he was the foreman for the carpenter shop. Jake: Awesome. And you mentioned him working at Grant Village. You are on special projects that's based out of Mammoth. Yeah. Have you worked at other areas? Yeah. my first full time position at Yellowstone was out at Old Faithful, and I was a heavy equipment operator out there for about a year. And then an opening came back with special projects, and they actually approached me for a lateral transfer for that position. Jake: So, between the job that you currently have and that first job, you mentioned that you had some movement in there to get where you currently are. Can you walk us through all the variety of jobs that you're at? Brian: Sure. So, like I said, my first year I was in the carpenter shop as a carpenter's helper. And then, I had that year where I was down trying to do the telecom stuff in Georgia. Jake: Your “Rumspringa.” [laughter] Brian: Yeah. And then, then when I came back, I actually applied for a labor position with special projects. And when I got that job, I enjoyed the work. And so, I just tried to take in as much as I could with the job and everything and saw what I could do. And then my next position with them was a seasonal truck driver, motor vehicle operator for them. And then, then eventually when I was able to get on at Old Faithful as a heavy equipment operator and then transferred into Mammoth, then worked my way up to be the work lead for special projects. And then here probably three years ago, I was hired as a supervisor for special projects. Jake: Awesome. Yeah, it's really cool. Like a lot of the jobs in the Park Service. this is like a theme that we've noticed, I think, is that you have you, people need to move around a lot to kind of, you know, have, to find advancement. But Yellowstone, because it's big enough that there is also that opportunity for a lot of people that there there's a more linear, there's more linear, ladder opportunities here than other parks. Like, a lot of times it's just you might be the only heavy equipment operator, and it's at a certain level. And if you want to promote, you got to go somewhere else. Brian: That's correct. Jake: So yeah, that's cool to hear. So, do you have a typical day? And like, you know, I know that there's seasons. Brian: Sure. But like, you know, for us, there's really not a typical day. I mean, we have our big projects or large projects in the summer, which consist of paving projects and chip sealing projects, which are road maintenance that we have to do every year. Certain sections of the road. But, you know, there's always the stuff that comes up and that seems to be a daily occurrence, especially with the higher visitation and use and everything more we see more and more, stuff that actually wouldn't normally, you know, be there as far as that goes. But a typical day, you know, I try to get into work early, about an hour before, before our team shows up and then get everybody rolling as my group likes to be out the door and work. And so, I try to have him out the door by 7:00 on the dot there so they can get after it. And, and then kind of whatever the day takes us where it kind of goes there. Jake: So, if, if not a typical day, do you have, you have typical seasons of, you know, you mentioned a summer season. So, like, what sort of projects do you guys do in different times of the year? Brian: So, like for the summer season, like I just mentioned, basically the chip seal and the paving projects and unfortunately, it's the time where we hinder the most with the public and the visitors, but with the way our work is, it's, depends on the weather. You know, I mean, we can't work in the real cold temperatures. We can't do this work if there's a lot of moisture, you know, so unfortunately, July, August is when we're the busiest. And, you know, we create we do create a lot of traffic problems out there in the park, but it is for the betterment so that they can have nice surfaces to see the park, you know. And then in the fall we start winding down a little bit and we actually start gearing up for spring opening, for open in the park in the spring, because that is a major. It takes us about three months to do all of our plowing. We start in to open the park after snowmobiles in March the 1st week of March, and we typically don't get done until about, oh, usually this Memorial Day weekend is what we shoot for, but the first week of June, a lot of years, Jake: Wow. Brian: That's because we have to cover all so the Beartooth Highway, which is outside the park, but it's, 11,000 almost, yeah, about 11,000ft, I think, is the elevation up there. So, they'll be they'll be snow 30 or 40ft deep up there in in early June. Jake: So, for somebody who's interested in, you know, getting into this, line of work, is there a skill set or a, you know, something that you'd, you know, that is the most important to have for. Brian: You know, like a lot of it's just you got to be willing to work hard, you know, and, and put in the time because we do our groups put in a lot of time. We use a lot of project money. So, in the summertime we have the ability to have overtime and it takes the overtime to get these jobs done. But it'll be typical when we're on our projects will work, 12, 13, sometimes 14-hour days by be 5 to 6 days a week if we need to, you know, for two to three weeks at a time. And then, you know, as we jump to the next project. So, you've got to be willing to, you know, put the time in and everything. And but it pays off in the long run. Jake: So, speaking of overtime, I know that your crew was responsible for the, you know, when we had the flood on June 13th, 2022, you guys were the basically the first responders, you know, more or less to the road that is now paved like it was an old dirt road. What, like your crews did that? Like how much time and effort did you guys? Brian: Oh, man. Miles: Seemed like you worked around the clock is my memory. Brian: Just about. Miles: For people who don’t remember the flood. The one developed road between headquarters and the rest of the world basically just got wiped out. So, I remember you guys were on it seemed like instantly. Brian: Yeah, they gave us the. Okay, I can't remember the exact date. I believe it was two days after, and we needed to get the old wagon road from Mammoth to the north entrance in Gardiner, shaped up to where we could get access because basically Mammoth was cut off, you know, and to everything. And at one point, both Gardner and Mammoth were cut off to everywhere because highway 89 was also flooded out in Yankee Jim Canyon. And so, yeah, we started on and, you know, talking with Cam and everything, it's like, do what you got to do to get it done. So, we started on 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and we just hammered it out until they kind of got things in place to have a contractor come in and, and, and take it the rest of the way to final completion. Jake: Yeah, you guys crushed that. Thank you again for all of that. For us that live in Mammoth. I think we can’t thank you guys and your team enough. That was really awesome. Miles: I couldn't believe how fast it was. Yeah. I mean, yeah, just if anyone had been on the OGR before that, it was basically like. Jake: Yeah, if it if it rained you couldn’t ride a bike. Miles: A little rain and it’s ice. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't ice, but it was just like just the way the dirt is around here is just so slippery. And so, to see it go from that to passable in a passenger car. Brian: You definitely wouldn’t recognize it now. You wouldn't realize what was under there. Miles: It's amazing. Sure. Yeah. Jake: So, what's your favorite part of the job? Brian: Yeah. You know, I that's kind of a tough question. I mean, there's a lot of things. Of course, when you've worked here as long as I have, there's so many different things you could jump into. But I just, like, just. Oh. More of the challenge, you know, of everything. And like, I, like I mentioned before with the higher visitation, so that creates its own challenges. And to try to not ruin the visitor experience for everybody. So, the challenges that go into planning the projects and making sure that everything's up and running, I think is, is probably what I enjoyed most of it. And it creates a lot of stress as well. Jake: But so yeah, like on the flip side, you're you have things that we all love about working in a national park. Are there any like what's your biggest challenge or the hardest part of your job? Brian: Again, I think it would be the planning phase because there's so many variables. I mean, between weather, between traffic, between just anything that I mean, just for instance, the OGR. All the sudden that through our whole summer into chaos because we still had to get our normal work done to that summer and it just. And that's kind of that's kind of the way we run a little bit is, is to get our stuff done, and then whatever else pops up, we'll try to fit that into and go from there. Jake: Were you guys able to take a break that winter? Once, like once it snowed in the road was there… Brian: Somewhat, we ended up having a fairly decent winter that winter also. So, this winter has actually been kind of a blessing for. Yeah. Jake: Yeah. so, you know, with the challenges, like, you know, obviously if everything's great all the time, then there's no, you know, reason to leave. But with challenges, like even with those, what keeps you here, what keeps you in the green and gray? Brian: You know, like, it goes back to the challenges. I mean, I like the challenge. I like I like to be able to push myself and push my team. And they like to be pushed in and me to be able to say that I went out and look at what we did for that project and be happy with what we did and have people to come back and even tell us and compliment. I mean, just like you guys just compliments with us, you know, here it's I mean, that the pride that we have in our work is. Jake: Do you have a, is there a moment in your in your park Service career that kind of stands out as like a defining moment or something that you did or like something that you look back on and you're like, man, we did that. Brian: Like, you know, I mean, there, if you put it that way, there could be so many just because of what we do with what we have and what we have to do. I could probably say that for a lot of things, you know, and everything there's I can't say that there's one specific thing. I mean, I just look back, there's a lot of years and I look back and say, well, we accomplished that much. I mean, I guess the OGR would be a great example, though, you know, for that, because that and that's not just us either. That's I mean, the whole team, the whole park came together for that. Yeah. You know, we had a major role in it, but there was a lot more involved than just us. Jake: Yeah. So, you know, do you we've had a lot of people talk about, you know, how they feel like, you know, the mission of the National Park Service and, you know, keeping this place in great shape for visitors and for future generations when we think of, you know, national parks, a lot of people think about the resource itself. You guys are working on roads, you know, how do you see yourself fitting into this mission? Like what is the, like, how do you feel that you are personally, and your team contributes to that larger mission? Brian: Well, the infrastructure is major. I mean, that's the major of what the visitors, you know, that's their main travel ways and that's makes the experience of their trip to the park. If the infrastructure is poor, they might have the most beautiful scenery. But if they have to drive over terrible roads and, you know, to get there and are miserable doing it, then you know they're not going to have a good time and enjoy themselves. So, it's important. And what we do and what we have to do here.

Miles: Do you have a lot of employees that come into the Park Service from like private industry contractors, things like that? Brian: You know, we get a few. Miles: I'm just curious what the experience is like, you know, like it's different, I’m sure. Like you said, planning around the visitors. Brian: Yeah. And it's so for with what we do, we're, we're so varied in the different tasks that we perform. So we'll get a few private, you know, people that come from private professional settings and everything. But a lot of people, I mean, for us, for a lot of years, it's been a lot of development. We've had to develop a lot of people and everything because you a lot of private sector stuff is more centralized. And I do this. You know, they don't have a maybe a wider range of what their skill sets and what their needs be. And it doesn't seem like we get as many applicants from the private sector. And I don't know if that is a pay gap difference or where that comes from. But we do. We do a lot of inner development for us. Jake: And so, is there like, like formal training or, you know, for somebody who is wanting to get into this, like, how does one get into your line of work? Brian: So, they're there is formal trainings out there. There's a lot of, like tech schools and things like that that we'll do the trainings, heavy equipment trainings, truck driving trainings for, commercial driver's license and things like that. We don't require necessarily any formal training. We do have obviously, the trainings that we do through the Park Service and that we do through our department, you know, and everything to keep everything up. And the in-house trainings we do to develop our people is kind of the direction we go. But, in order to get these jobs, obviously you do have to have some experience, you know, with the heavy equipment. Jake: You probably need a driver's license. Brian: And a driver's license. Yes, obviously. And yeah. And so, we require all of our heavy equipment operators have to have a commercial driver's license class A type one. And so, they have to be able to, to maintain one of those licenses to perform the duties. But other than that, for the most part, no formal training is necessarily required for it. Jake: Gotcha So this is, you know, for the people that are listening that are interested in this type of, career. And if they were to go on USA jobs and look for this, what is the series of your job like in the people that work for you? Brian: Actually, I wrote it down because I don't remember it off the top of my head. Jake: And we we're laughing with ourselves because it's like so in the weeds, you apply for it and then you're like, I forget what my job was. Brian: Yeah. So, the series is actually for the equipment operators. It's 5716. We actually do have a couple of other series that are for our seasonals, and I think 3502 is one. And that would be kind of our entry level positions there. And those are seasonal positions. And then I think, 5703 is for our seasonal motor vehicle operators that drive our dump trucks and things like that. Jake: And what grade are those entry level positions? Brian: So, the entry level for the labor positions are WG five, and then our seasonal, truck drivers would be WG eight. Jake: Gotcha. Cool. So, you know, do you have any advice for somebody other than, you know, obviously have your grandfather work in a park and you're born into it is, you know, [laughter] not everybody can do that. But right now, that you've been in, and you've been doing it for a while for somebody who is, you know, looking at, you know, transitioning, getting out of the city and wanting to come drive a truck in Yellowstone. What sort of advice? Brian: I would say, first of all, get your license. Yeah, obviously your commercial driver's license and apply, you know, just apply, get out there and apply for multiple jobs, you know, I mean, see what you can get because there's different things. What we do might not be best suited for what you want to do, but you don't know until you get there. Jake: You know how many how like, you know, I think I've heard that Yellowstone has one of the largest fleets of vehicles out of like all every park we have like 1200 or something like that. How many heavy equipment machines do we have that you guys run? Brian: You know, that's actually a really good question. We have probably just of heavy equipment. This isn't counting our dump trucks, our tractor trailers or pickups and our utility trailers and things like that. We have over 70 pieces of equipment just for special projects. Jake: Wow. So, for our, for all the five-year-old boys that are listening, that want to know all the different pieces of equipment, can you rattle off some of the ones that you guys have that you use? Brian: Yeah, I can so we use, road graders. We actually have five of those just on special projects. We have, front end loaders, bulldozers, rotary snowplows. That's usually everyone's favorite. Jake: I got to ride them on with you. Yeah. That was awesome. Brian: Yeah, yeah. And those are pretty amazing machines. The one we have, the ones we have right now, will move. I think 3500 tons of snow an hour, and. Yeah, and we have seven of those. Miles: Wow. Brian: Because as, like you were saying before, we have over 400 miles of road in the park and as what we plow in the spring, we have to plow over 300 miles of that in the springtime, over pack snow that's been groomed all winter and pack down like concrete, basically. So, and we have basically two months to get that done. Jake: Yeah, yeah that's crazy. Have you, have you seen the operation before, Miles? Like have you ever seen like in person? Miles: I haven't seen the full operation. I was just wondering what the I mean, I've seen pictures, but I was wondering what the full cadre of vehicles it is. Brian: It's pretty if you get a chance. I think if you can look on YouTube and look up minute out in it. Yeah. I think is what it's called and that gives a pretty good a pretty good show. It's a pretty good video. And of most of the equipment working and that's our park plowing here, which that operation is a little different than when we're up on the Beartooth Pass. The snow conditions are a little bit different, but in that operation, we have, we have one grader that has, V-plow on the front of it, and we hook two bulldozers to the front of it, and we have to pull it through the snow to break up the snow. Miles: WOW! Jake: Yeah. It's crazy. So, yeah. And then you got the cleanup crew that comes in behind. Brian: Yeah. And widens everything out with them. Miles: Do you have a mechanic with you? Brian: We run two mechanics with us the whole time out here, and then we have to actually separate rotary plows that run in the areas when they get out in the park. So, they'll split off from the main crew and they'll work in the areas, and they'll have a mechanic with them so that we can open up the areas while we're still open in the roads. Miles: Amazing. Jake: When my first year here that I came after winter and it was the spring plowing and I had the opportunity to go out, I think we're at Lake right? Brian: Between Lake and Grant. Yeah. Jake: And we're Brian was running the rotary plow and just like it like huck snow forever. It's really cool to see that. And then, I think two winters ago I went up to the Beartooths and it was like a lower snow year, but it still was like a 35ft wall of snow. What's in it? What's the name of that big famous curve? Brian: They call it the Bar Drift up there. Yeah. And it's I, I don't know the full history on it. But it has to do with years ago, back when the state of Montana and the state of Wyoming would meet because the state of Montana plows the Montana side. And then we take care of the Wyoming side, they would meet up there, and then they would cut a bar into the into the snow out there and, or whatever. Jake: Ahh! Brian: And then the town of Red Lodge would come up and they'd have a big party. And I believe I'd have to look this up to get verification. But I believe there's some pictures out there. One time they even had an elephant up there wandering it, [laughter]which is so random. Jake: Oh, yeah. It's really, it's really like, just unbelievable to see that operation. And again, that happens in closed areas like that. It's just another thing that happens behind the scenes. You know, you drive through construction in the summer, but you're not driving through with the plow operations. And so yeah, that's like a huge thing to and the schedule that you keep I've, I used to work in Glacier, and they also have a road that requires crazy plowing Going to the Sun Road. But they don't really put a time limit on it. It's kind of like it's open when it's open when we're done. You know, you guys are like, cutthroat. Like, we got to hit these dates. These are when the things open, Brian: And we're pretty proud of that. We haven't missed the park. We haven't missed an opening date since I've been plowing out here. And I think I've been plowing since 2007 or 2008. Jake: Yeah, yeah. Knock on wood. Yeah, there we go. So, yeah. Miles: Another thing I was wondering about is like, I assume you kind of get to know different areas of the park when it, you know, being on a volcano. So weird. Just like, is it, is it been interesting over all these years to get to, like, there's probably going to be a pothole there this year. Brian: Yea, sure. Miles: And like, because the weirdest things pop up on the road, you know, just one day I'm driving by, and I've come the next day and there's just like a three-foot tall, three-foot-wide bubble in the road. Brian: Yeah, and some of it's so unpredictable because the geothermal stuff moves so much. I mean, there could be an area that you've never had problems with before, and all of a sudden an issue pops up, you know, and it's I mean, we've like, I think Jake was kind of saying before we built roads on a volcano or what's not a volcano, we're on high mountain slopes and or over swamps, so we don't have the most ideal areas that our roads corridors are built on. [laughter] Miles: Yeah. And I hadn't thought too about the increased visitation. And also like, vehicles just keep getting bigger. Brian: Right. Jake: Yeah. You know, RVs are bigger. Miles: And then and then a lot of electric vehicles are really heavy. Jake: Yeah. Miles: Like it's amazing. Sometimes I read the weights on these things. I'm like, oh 7,000 pounds for a, you know, normal sized pickup or something. I hadn't thought about that, but yeah. Jake: So, before we go, one of the last things that we like to ask everybody is, you know, it's doesn't have to be work related. I mean, if it was, then that's great. But do you have a favorite story of, you know, in a national park, you know, whether vacation or on work time just like something where you're like, man, I like this is such a cool thing that I'm a part of that I get, Brian: You know, probably and it's not really a story because it encompasses a few years of time, but I was able to actually my when my dad's last few years here, I was able to work beside him a little bit. He worked in a separate crew. He worked for the North District maintenance crew at the time, but I was able to work alongside him on a lot of projects and stuff his last few years before he retired. So that's pretty amazing when you look at the scope of what the Park Service entails and everything. Jake: Yeah, that is pretty cool. Did, you guys have a, a father son friendly competition going on whose work was the best? [laughter] Brian: Oh, you know, there's always that. Whether it's even now. Jake: Yeah. So, yeah. That was awesome. Thanks for joining us today. And, Miles, do you have any other things you like to ask? Miles: No, I don't think so. Jake: Yeah. Brian: Well, thank you guys for having me. Jake: Yeah. Thank you so much. And we appreciate again all the work that you guys do and especially all the work that, you know, hopefully you guys can relax this winter a little bit from the winter two winters ago and OGR stuff. Brian: Yeah. Well thanks again I appreciate the time. And in getting the word out there on what we do is we are kind of one of the behind-the-scenes type of people. They might see us out there and everything, but a lot of people don't know actually what we really do. Jake: Well, that's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Brian Batzloff. If you like What We Do, write and review the show wherever you listen, because every positive review helps new listeners find the show. If you have questions or you want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast. Thanks for listening!

Have you ever thought about how we maintain park roads that are exposed to some of the harshest conditions in the country? Brian Batzloff joins us today to talk about the challenges of maintaining roads that are subjected to geologic and volcanic pressures, extreme negative temperatures, dense snowpack, and use by millions of visitors annually!

View park road status and seasonal opening/closing dates at go.nps.gov/YELLroads

View definitions and links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, engineering equipment operator, facilities, maintenance, podcast, what we do

April 3, 2024

3. John Cataldo, Fire Management Officer

Transcript

Transcript

Miles: From Yellowstone National Park, this is what we do. I'm Miles Barger.

Ashton: And I'm Ashton Hooker.

Miles: Hey, Ashton.

Ashton: Hey, Miles.

Miles: How's it going?

Ashton: Pretty good. How are you doing?

Miles: I'm doing pretty well. Are you ready to record a fire podcast today?

Ashton: Yes, straight fire podcast coming your way.

Miles: Because today we're going to talk to John Cataldo, Yellowstone's Fire Management Officer and before we get started I have to do a little fire trivia, it's it's going to be a trite one, but I think it's still interesting. So Yellowstone record fire in 1988. How many acres of the park burned? during those fires.

Ashton: I know it was massive. I know it was a lot.

Miles: It was a lot.

Ashton: I mean, in.

Miles: Round to the nearest 100,000 if you want.

Ashton: Okay. I was going to say a few hundred thousand. I'll say 600,000 figures. Okay. I'm getting the motion a little more. 800,000.

Miles: That would be the right rounding.

Ashton: nice.

Miles: 793,880 is the official number I found.

Ashton: You know, like if we were to compare.

Miles: And that's. That's not the full fire.

Ashton: Like what's, like, 800,000 acres compared to.

Miles: Gosh, that's a good question. Yellowstone, 2.2 ish million. Okay. Which is what states combined Rhode Island.

John: To roll out.

Miles: To Rhode Island.

John: And.

Miles: So not so maybe two thirds of Rhode Island is 36% of the park. Pretty big.

Ashton: That's a pretty big fire.

Miles: Yeah, pretty big. And that's just inside of Yellowstone. Anyway, there's our trivia. But today, like I said, we're talking to John Cataldo, fire management officer here, ready to dive in. I'm ready. All right, good. So in your career, have you always worked for the National Park Service in your career? Did you start with a different agency in terms of fire?

John: I started with the National Park Service and 1992, and I've kind of oscillated back and forth between the U.S. Forest Service and the National Park Service, but always a federal agent.

Miles: Okay. Yep. What was your first job in fire?

John: My first job in or in general or. Well, in general, It was actually part of my financial aid package when I was an undergrad at Humboldt State University. I was offered a work study opportunity as part of my financial aid, and I was studying wildlife management at Humboldt State University in Northern California. And my my advisor and a department chair was married to the branch chief of Wildlife at Redwood National Park, and I was on academic scholarship as well at Humboldt and he kind of passed my name along to his wife and said, We've got a potential work study student, if, you know, interested in picking them up for some work and they

John: gave me a key to the office for Redwood National Park and a pile of wildlife observation cards that visitors and employees had filled out. And there was a pile pretty much up to the ceiling, and they gave me a key to the office and let me go in there 10 to 15 hours a week, all during the school year.

John: And just at my own pace, whenever I could fit in, in between classes and whatnot. And that was kind of my yeah, my my very first park service job.

Miles: Interesting. Yeah. So how long after that was it when you first got into fire of some kind?

John: The very next summer, I was working up in Alaska for the Forest Service and Cordova. Which is the last place I ever moved to without checking the Farmer's Farmer's Almanac. Like, how much rain or Sonic gets or doesn't get. And it turns out that Alaska gets 169 inches of rain a year. And I was working in fisheries at the time, so I studied wildlife and fisheries in college and so that was how I got my start in the service was those sorts of positions.

John: And so working in fisheries, we were outside every day in Cordova, you know, wearing rain gear. And I mean, honestly, after a couple of months of that, I was basically pruning like it just been like you know, you just had been in the shower for two months and they said, hey, do you want to go to a fire school?

John: And I just said, Is it indoors? And they're like, Yeah, it's it's down here. And the the district office was an old courthouse of some kind, and it was like, yeah, fire school is in the judge's chambers or something in the courthouse. And it was in fact indoors. And I said, Yeah, I'm your man. And so I took a took fire school.

John: And of course the place where it rains that much, you don't get off fires. But it was an exceptionally dry summer there. The next year when I returned, and we had a couple of, like, little fires out on the Copper River Delta fireworks, something. And I got to go to those. And then the 1994 fire season in the lower 48, which is kind of another benchmark fire season in the lower 48, it really kicked off in August.

John: And I spent the last six or eight weeks deployed down here on fire crews. I kind of went to each each little team on the district up in Alaska, and everyone had to volunteer, somebody to go be a firefighter. And I was good at hiking and carrying a big pack and stuff. Yeah.

John: They said, Why don't you go and let's go?

Ashton: Well, so what did you. You said you were studying wildlife. Starting out? Yeah. Did you ever envision yourself being in fire? Like, what did you. What were you kind of working toward before you got you know, you got the offer of like, hey, you can come indoors and. Yeah.

Miles: Well.

John: I was just working towards, you know, a career as a wildlife biologist or a fisheries biologist. You know, I studied both and I, I grew up loving it and, you know, loving the outdoors and whatnot. I'm a kid from suburban Long Island, New York, like 20 miles outside city. And that was my big escape, was going to the woods and, you know, even if that was running around catching garter snakes under garbage on the side of some parkway on Long Island, which is honestly how you start in wildlife management.

Ashton: Areas.

John: And a little suburban Long Island kid, there's not a lot of open wild spaces or places to get away from, from the crowds. so yeah, now the woods kind of became my, my retreat when I was young and just got out the book of colleges, You know, when you're in high school and it's like the size of a phone book and it's every, every college in the country and, and all the programs they offer and take three or four of the top wildlife management programs.

John: And one of them happened to be 4 hours from where my brother lived in Oregon, and I ended up at Humboldt.

Ashton: cool.

John: Yeah.

Miles: So when you finally did get into fire, what was it that kept you there?

John: I've always been into a lot of sports growing up, so just like, being really physical. And honestly, probably statistics and organic chemistry pushed me towards firefighting because to kind of take the next step in wildlife and fisheries, it was going to be really heavy. And, you know, you kind of get to that point in your education where it's like, I don't know if I'm good at I don't know if I'm ready to take the next step.

Miles: I think organic chemistry is that line for quite a few people.

Ashton: Yeah, Yeah. Kind of weak people out.

John: Yeah. So just working on a team and being outside and it was just a good fit. it was like I was kind of made to do it, you know? I just. Just felt right. Yeah, it just felt right. It was just right off the bat. It was. It was a good fit. I just fell right into it.

John: I You're lucky if that happens to you. Yes, whatever. Good. Whatever you do.

Miles: Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm like, How did I get to where I am today? And I feel lucky. I don't think I would have planned it. Like you're saying. Sometimes these things just happen.

John: Yeah, I had some apprehension, you know, in the beginning, and just talking to other folks who've done it previously and they're like, No, it's great. It's like camping for dollars. Like you're going to yeah, we're going to go camp for four weeks and we're going to work hard all day, and then you go sleep in a tent and we're going to get up and do it again.

John: I was like, That sounds great.

Miles: So what was the I think I'm guessing I don't know yet, but I'm guessing a theme in these podcasts that will come up is, is the career progression can be interesting. So like, what are the steps to go from that where you're like actively out camping, fighting fire.

John: Yeah.

Miles: To where someday you're spending most, if not all of your time in an office and dealing with budgets and hiring in the big picture. Like what did that look like for you? Timeline wise? Yeah, that's kind.

John: Of one of the hazards of the job, is someday someone's going to hand you a radio to talk on. That's the first hazard of the job, right? They kind of leave you alone for a few years because it's dangerous to let you be in charge of anything. And then at some point they're like, like your you seem pretty squared away and they hand your radio and that's a big fork in the road.

John: So you're going to let me talk on the radio while I'm on a fire and actually, you know, help coordinate what's going on and yeah, I've held a lot of positions along the way. We get to go a lot of different places in this job, which is also what attracted me to it. I think I've been to fires in 18 different states.

Miles: Wow.

John: At this point, and I'm not done yet. Right. I got a lot left in me, but,

Ashton: Was one of those states more memorable than the others? Does one stick out to you?

John: You know, they're so they are so unique. I know it sounds cliche, but I mean, literally, I've spent three weeks camped three feet from the Yukon River in Interior, Alaska, helping manage a long duration fire up there. You know, and I've done a lot of prescribed fire down in Big Cypress down in South LA. So literally this job has taken me from one corner of the country to the other.

John: Yeah, and a lot of places in between. And you just get to granted you're working really long hours while you're there, but you get to see a lot of interesting things. A lot of the you're off the beaten path a lot. Yeah. So you just have a lot of shared experiences and.

Miles: Must be interesting to to, to get to like be pretty intimately familiar with so many different types of forest as well. And like the way fire behaves so differently in these different places.

John: And yeah, and you have to be a student of it because it.

Miles: I bet.

John: It'll kill you if you're not paying attention. So you are very eager to learn. Yeah. When you go to a new place, like how does it move right through this stuff? Does it move by jumping from tree to tree, or is it mostly ground fire? Are there interesting local factors? Like does it burn? Some places it burns really hot and downhill at night.

John: I didn't see that coming. Right. So you got to you got to make sure you're being a student and finding the people that understand how fire moves on that particular landscape helps keep us all safe. Yeah, they meet the objective, whatever that is.

Miles: Yeah. So let's jump ahead to now. So do you have a typical day in your job? You know.

John: A lot of what drew me to this is that it's it's not a lot of typical I guess I should focus on maybe on the summer because like you mentioned the winter, you know, when you're a year round position and you live at 6300 feet, National Park, we get a lot of opportunity for winter and typically don't have fires.

John: And in the off season it is a lot of just planning for next season and hiring and communicating with our partners and cooperators and just kind of getting on the same page for the next season. But once we kind of throw the switch and the temporary employees come on in the spring and and we kind of ramp up and just sort of get into the mode, so to speak.

John: And a typical day, we start off with a briefing with everyone on the team and we get together for about 20 minutes and we go through a safety conversation and a weather conversation situation. Whatever's going on, fires in the park, fires around the park, fires we may find ourselves on later that day. Just whatever's going on go through a plan for the day and then we just sort of fledge everyone to their assignments.

John: And typically we'll go five different directions on a given day and we'll be engaged with a fuels reduction projects. You know, in some of the urban interface areas around Park will be out monitoring the fuel moisture and different types of fuels that we're curious about in the park. That's a big part of the program, is being prepared for what might comment and how wet or dry the fuels are is a big part of that.

John: So we'll be out doing that, maybe helping our neighbors with some incidents that they're managing. So they're just really every day is different.

Miles: Yeah.

John: Especially once we get around to like May or so and then through October, you just really never know what you're getting into.

Miles: So it's a good, good career field for someone who likes to keep, keep moving and have surprises thrown at them.

John: There's a lot of moving. Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts you have to be in.

Miles: You're out in the field a lot in the summer.

John: I get to pick and choose my spots at this point a lot. Unfortunately, the field part of my job is definitely dropped off and particularly here just because of connectivity issues. Yeah, because we are so remote, relatively speaking, to a lot of other places in the lower 48 that because a lot of my day to day responsibility is to be what we call a duty officer.

John: So I'm the first phone call on any new potential or vegetation fire. So I get however that report comes in from a visitor or from an employee. It'll get routed to our dispatch center. Then they call me as the duty officer and say, Here's what we might have. What do you want to do about it?

Miles: So you need to be reachable and.

John: Reachable at all times. Yeah. And if people can't find me, I'm not doing my job. So it does kind of keep me around headquarters. Yeah, a lot. But of course, I do enjoy getting out on fire.

Miles: Yeah. Yeah. So what in your current job, what do you think is the most important skill.

John: For my position? I think the ability to triage a lot of emerging problems and to pretty quickly sift through what's important and what's noise and what can wait and what you know, you're pretty much in a when things are rocking and rolling, there's a constant state of just, you know, your awareness is just piqued and you're just constantly trying to update what we call a common operating picture of like, what is our fire environment, what's going on and what the biggest threats are, right?

John: It's all about risk management. Fire management is risk. So risk to people first and foremost, risk to infrastructure, you know, buildings and then everything after that. So yeah, just the ability to maintain the correct flight altitude. And, you know, all of us start out as just ground pounders, right. Swinging a tool, sort of £5 tool 10,000 times a day is how you first prove that you can you can do this right?

John: And then you go from there to where you're virtually never swinging a £5 tool anymore. Yeah. So sometimes when you know, when really things start rocking and rolling, some folks all revert to what they're most comfortable with. Right. Which is the like the first thing you ever learn. And they want to kind of get in the weeds and just being able to maintain that 30,000 foot wide altitude as a fire management officer, that's pretty critical.

Ashton: On that skill to like bring in like all that different types of information and then be able to make decisions that probably comes with a lot of experience and that you've had over the years. So if you were to like, you know, what advice like what types of experience should people be seeking out if they want to, you know, get to your type of position one day.

John: Variety is really see seek variety and particularly prescribed fire so controlled burns and other way we describe those being involved with that is a great way to just see a lot of fire on the landscape and watch it and not necessarily have to just be responding to take those opportunities to see how it moves and understand the physics of it just really pays dividends down the line.

John: So it really it's just experiential learning, all of it. I mean, there's a big on the job training component. We have a huge continuing education component to all of this where as you progress along, we're sending you to like more or less one week long classes. We have a lot of like 32 to 40 hour classes will send it to you, but those just sort of complement that field experience.

John: So it's just go full sound like just get as much fire under your belt as you possibly is the best way to be good at my job. And so that's why I oscillated between the two different agencies because, you know, the Forest Service, that's the big green machine, right? So I think half the U.S. Forest Service budget is fire management.

John: Well, so they're highly invested in it. And that's where the majority of the resources in America are. You know, they're in the green trucks with the different the different logo. And so coming up in the Park Service was great. But I also realized I'm not seeing enough fire on Park Service land to get as good as I need to get at this to have the job I want to have some day.

John: So I. I knew I wanted a job like I have now, but to get there, I had to leave the agency, you know, go to a different federal agency and ended up running a Hotshot crew for close to a decade, which is a great way to see a lot of fire.

Miles: Yeah.

John: So that was just all by design that I was like, Well, I think I've done what I can in the Park Service. There just wasn't as many opportunities to move up or move laterally. We just don't have as big a program. And it's like, I'm going to go fight fire with Forest Service for about a decade and then I'll come back and I'll feel a lot more confident what I'm doing.

Miles: So you wanted you did want to end up back at the Park Service, perhaps? Ultimately, yeah. Why? Why that over? You know, like you said, Forest Service is the big the big agency, the tail end of all this stuff. What what about the Park Service made you want to end up here?

John: I just love the mission. Really. And, I mean, it's the the greatest last, best places. And it's I mean, the the the Park Service units are, you know, particularly for me, loving the mountains. I mean, being in the northern Rockies, it's just outrageous. And I just this region in particular, I've spent time in the Pacific West and the Pacific Northwest, and I love those systems as well.

John: But I mean, the Rockies are just outrageous for me. You can't beat it.

Miles: So yeah.

Ashton: Yeah, I was that kind of same sentiment. What drew you to Yellowstone or was there some sort of draw to Yellowstone for you in particular?

John: You know, I'd I'd spent about five years of my life in Alaska, so one of my early park service positions, actually my first permanent appointment was I was the first helicopter manager hired at Denali in the year 2000. We had the the National Fire plan came out. So we'd had kind of a succession of really intense fire seasons in America.

John: And the result of that was the thing called the 2000 National Fire Plan. And a big part of that was a big injection of funding into fire management in America. So, you know, a lot of life's timing, right? And so when the National Fire plan rolled around, I had about nine seasons under my belt, either a fire management or wildlife or fisheries management, and I think three, three full seasons and and a few qualifications under my belt and then all these permanent jobs popped up and I was sort of in a really good position to compete for one.

John: So that was that was just good timing. And a lot of my peers, we call ourselves like National Fire Plan babies because we all got our start. We all got our very first appointment sometime in the spring of 2000.

Miles: I mean, I think yeah, a couple of things you said I think are good for people to keep in mind in terms of thinking about wanting to work for federal agency in general. In the Park Service specifically is like there is timing, there is luck, there is when these things come along. And also being having having the 30,000 foot view of your own career, like you were saying, is like, maybe I need to leave for a while to get these other experiences because I think sometimes people think I'll just be able to follow this exact path that I want and get the jobs I want.

Miles: And I feel like that so rarely happens. If anyone that I know in the Park Service, whether they leave for a completely different field sometimes or switch agencies or whatever, it's like, this is where I would like to be, but I need to get this experience here or this there, or thinking about the career ladders in the way things can go.

Miles: Yeah, I think that's I'm glad that you brought up those points because I think it's a good thing for people to remember. That's certainly how my career has been. I think almost everybody I talk to.

John: Yeah, I think a big part of it is I tell folks all the time, you know, to some extent you have to be prepared to move at the speed of opportunity, you know, And you can't just expect in a in the federal service and the Park Service like plant roots in one spot and march up the ladder through your entire career in one place.

John: It's just not realistic. Possible that a massive unit like we work at. Right. Because I do have a tremendous organizational chart here and a lot of really deep programs and a lot of career ladder potential. That's pretty unique. It is in the service, though. Yeah, pretty rare. Yeah. You can go to a lot of parks and there there might be you know the chief ranger and to seasonal law enforcement.

Miles: Yeah.

John: You know at these smaller units you know in that career and obviously there you know you're not going to try to stay in one place 30 years, become the chief ranger like you might have to step to the side to step up and step back. And now there's tremendous opportunity to move around. I think that's a great thing.

John: You know, I'd want to see a lot of places and I want to do a lot of different things. And for me, the emphasis in my life wasn't going to be plant roots, start a family, young, be in one place, you know, coach the volleyball team or someplace. Like, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to, like, just really move around a lot and to see a lot of things.

John: Like I said, I'm a suburban Long Island kid, yet once I hit the West, I wasn't slowing down. Yeah, I wasn't going to move out west and plant yet somewhere. So I've achieved that.

Miles: So even so, with all these different experiences that you have, might be hard to pick one. But is there like a moment in your career that stands out to you as really being a defining moment or even the defining moment? Is there was there some time where you were like, This is it for me? Or was it more gradual?

John: You know, in my in my fire service career, I'd say the day that we were certified as a as a hotshot crew in Northern California, that was a that process took several years and was pretty intense. And so I'll remember that day for sure.

Miles: Yeah.

John: You know, anytime you're working towards the same goal for six years, year round, it's a pretty big day. Yeah. Someone finally says you're good enough. Wow. But it and within my park service experience really that the entire 2016 fire season here in Yellowstone is kind of a kind of a benchmark to, you know, any fire season you're a part of that ends up with like a commemorative pint glass or something is usually probably a pretty big deal.

John: Yeah. And in that year, we successfully managed 100 square miles of fire. Wow. In Yellowstone and while concurrently celebrating the centennial.

John: Yeah. So there was a period of time where we had an incident management team just managing the centennial celebrations and in Mammoth in Gardiner, Montana, and we had a separate incident management team assigned to the Maple Fire, which was out by West Yellowstone, ultimately burned about 55,000 acres, and we had a third incident management team concurrently managing a basket of about five or six smaller fires, most of which were out on the northern range of the park.

John: And we had all that going at once and we didn't have any single serious injuries, you know, rotating firefighters through that for for months on end. There's a single shingle off the side of the structure, so no one got hurt. We didn't burn anything up that we didn't want burnt up or or were willing to accept burning up and, you know, I mean, we a hundred square miles of a pretty incredible natural process in the world's first national park so that that year sticks out.

Ashton: Yeah. Yeah. So you just mentioned like protecting these historic, you know, buildings that are in the park and stuff like that. And earlier you mentioned fuels reduction projects for people who don't really know what that means. Like how do you do that? How do you protect like because, you know, there's all these historic buildings throughout the park. How do you how do you go about protecting those?

John: It's really all about just creating what we call defensible space around those. And we really focus on the first 30 to 300 feet of vegetation immediately around that structure. So we just basically need some elbow room around there to function as firefighters. We can't have a little baby trees growing out of foundation of old building and pushing the shingles off the side of them and stuff like that.

John: That'll happen in a place like Yellowstone. You know, Lodgepole Pine is a pretty robust species and it's a little bit weedy in some places where it gets really thick and comes in pretty strong, especially after a fire. So when we're talking about fuels reduction, we're just literally in and around the the developed areas in the park, just reducing the amount of biomass.

John: So we're focusing on the the smaller brush and grasses and trees that are, say under 4 to 6 inches in diameter and just removing those and just basically thinning it out.

Ashton: Okay.

John: In other areas we might use prescribed fire or controlled burning to try to accomplish that same objective because fires are really efficient way to to reduce the amount of biomass around, you know, around a subdivision. But lodgepole pine, when it burns, it burns completely. So it's natural fire regime is stand replacement. So it burns from the surface of the ground or the tops of the trees and and completely is what we would expect.

John: And that's not really a great thing to have in and around a community because you're just treating one problem for another. So you do a controlled burn and then you have a patch of dead trees next to your homes and then you're dealing with that. So we just prefer not to do controlled burning around our developed areas and we just go in and yeah, just then out the vegetation so that if a fire does come in there, it's not moving through the tops of the trees, which is of course where it's really intense and dangerous.

John: It's it's going to stay on the ground where we can deal with it and probably on the ground with wavelengths less than eight feet. That's kind of our cut off. If the flames are taller than eight feet, we're going to need a pretty heavy hand to deal with that. We can't swap that out.

Ashton: Gotcha.

Miles: So for people interested in your field, you know, your career field, what before we get to your series and and grade and all that kind of stuff, where would people look if they wanted to get started and fire? Like, what series would they look for?

John: We're actually going through a really big transition right now and in how we're classified as firefighter tours. We were forestry technicians for the first few decades of this profession, and essentially it's been decided over the past few years. That's not a very accurate description of wildland firefighting for lots of good reasons. And so now there's a new wildland firefighter job series, and that's zero four, five, six, and it's designed to be a higher to retire job series.

John: So we're going to be recruiting and advertising positions in that from now on, literally from the GS three to the GS 15 level. Wow.

Ashton: So that's really cool.

John: Yeah. And previous to that, we were we were hiring entry level positions as OE for six to forestry technicians and then I'm currently in in 0401 which is biologist ecologist job series and that's all transitioning. So going forward it will be zero four or five six from just three to just 15.

Miles: Wow. So that simplifies it a lot for people interested in looking at does. Yeah, yeah. They can focus in on that series and find something that aligns with whatever experience they have. Yeah. And get in the door.

John: Yeah. And getting in the door is not that complicated. You know, we don't have super high educational requirements, basically a high school diploma and a great attitude and an aptitude to learn new things, you know, commitment to physical fitness. Like, let's go. Yeah, that's it. Like we can, we can start there, right? And we can we're going to teach you the rest.

John: So it's.

Miles: Pretty cool. It's I think. Yeah, yeah. Because I've definitely noticed, like I've never been in wildland fire, anything myself, but just being around people who are, there's definitely like a vibe, a culture. I think of the people who stick with it because like you said, you got to you got to want to Yeah. Into it.

John: Well, when you have a lot of intense shared experiences, right? Yeah. So any time you do that, you do form a certain bond with the people that you're doing that with, that you can't simulate elsewhere, except maybe like within your actual immediate family, like the experiences you might have with your brothers and sisters growing up. And there's so many stories I can't tell anybody because they won't even understand.

John: Sure. You know, and that's a powerful thing. And it can be lonely at times because there's, you know, you got to like, find your old hotshot friends to, like, talk about, you know, some fire you're on because you just spend all your time trying to explain it to other people. Yeah. You know, So, yeah, it's it's kind of a unique and unique job in that in that regard, would you meet a lot of great people there?

John: It's not easy. It's not an easy job to do, right. So if if you're around people that are doing it and sticking with it and making it pass, there's kind of this imaginary line at year three where you're sort of in or out, right? You're either like, This is what we're doing because the commitment level's so high or maybe this isn't for me and I don't like sleeping on the ground.

John: Yeah, yeah. Being completely convinced, like when the next meal is going to show up, you're out here or just being out in that environment. Yeah. So when you're around people that have made that commitment and made those sacrifices, it's a pretty special. Very. Yeah, Yeah. So real good stories if you can get us to tell them.

Ashton: Maybe someday.

Miles: That to say I could keep that I Yeah. I wish we could talk for like 3 hours.

Ashton: Yeah. So along those lines, like, if somebody is looking for this job in a national park, not every national park has these jobs, right? Or do they.

Miles: Not.

John: Ever unit certainly the larger midsize to larger parks. So, for example, in our region we have 14 park level fire programs and those programs either manage one or group of parks. So, you know, when you talk about a Yellowstone or Mesa Verde or a bent, we're Rocky Mountain Dinosaur, Zion, all those units have a program. and pretty robust, you know.

John: So sometimes when you get into like a much smaller unit, like we manage fire for the little big, you know, a Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument, about 4 hours east of where we're sitting. And we provide fire management services for. But they don't have any firefighter, okay. Or any equipment. So it's just sort of an administrative responsibility. And so, yeah, we we manage their fires through agreements and relationships.

John: So the Crow agency has agreed to put out fires if we get any. So yeah, but most mid midsize national parks are going to have, especially out west will have their own program. So there's a ton of opportunity investment. The bipartisan infrastructure law has it's I call it National Fire Plan 2.0. It's essential labor. The next huge influx of investment in wildland firefighting in America.

John: The Park Service has benefited greatly from. So all those programs are kind of on the kind of on the uptick. It's a great time to get your foot in the door and start a career or or advance in your career in fire.

Miles: Awesome.

John: Yeah.

Miles: Well, like I said, I wish you could talk for like 3 hours. I want to just ask you about fire ecology and behavior and what it's like to get to know such a it's such a it's just like a fascinating process to me. You know, it's like a chemical reaction happening that.

John: Yeah, has.

Miles: Its own life and scale and like you said, behaves so differently. But we do have to wrap it up. So, do you have a favorite story or memory from your time in Yellowstone or another national park? But just something that.

John: You know, I've been reflecting on that. Yeah, recently and I couldn't come up with, you know, the one thing, and maybe that's because at this point in my career, in my life, I've learned to appreciate, like, smaller, small things, you know? And I mean, obviously we live in a place where we're just kind of surrounded by wonder, and people have a hard time even relating sometimes to the things we try to describe that happen in our backyard.

John: But for example, literally in my backyard the other day, I went out to chop some wood for our stove and was just enjoying the weekend and I kind of had a quiet moment and I stood there and a wolf howled and it sounded like it was, you know, maybe a mile behind us. And I thought, you know, it's like noon.

John: That's not typically when I hear wolves howl. Sometimes they come around at night and I'll I'll hear them when I'm wet the dog out, you know, for the last time in the evening or something. And, so I sat there real quiet and and howled again, you know, and I, I probably have a 100, you know, little stories like that.

John: we're just surrounded by it all the time. And, yeah, it's there all the time. If you're, if you're listening for it and if you're, if you're open to it and Yeah. Mean we're just surrounded by. I wonder if you got your eyes and ears up. That's always there. Go enjoy it.

Miles: I think that's the perfect way to wrap up. Thanks for coming and talking to us today. You're all fascinating.

John: Let's do it again.

Miles: Yeah, I would like to call.

Ashton: Thank you. Thank you.

John: You're welcome.

Miles: Well, that's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, John Cataldo. If you like what we do, rate and review the show wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. If you have questions or want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at Go dot NPS dot gov forward slash what we do podcasts.

Miles: Thanks.

We’re coming in hot with a FIRE episode today featuring Fire Management Officer John Cataldo! John has worked on wildland fires in 18 states with both the U.S. Forest Service and National Park Service. From fighting fires on the ground to managing Yellowstone’s fire program, John talks about his professional journey and offers advice for those interested in a fire career.

View definitions and links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, fire management, wildland fire

March 27, 2024

2. Addy Falgoust, Park Guide

Transcript

Transcript

Ashton: From Yellowstone National Park. This is what we do. I'm Ashton Hooker.

Brett: And I'm Brett Raeburn.

Ashton: Hey, Brett.

Brett: Hey, Ashton. How's it going?

Ashton I'm good. How are you doing today?

Brett: I'm doing awesome. It's getting close to lunch, so my stomach might rumble a little bit here.

Ashton: Um, mine is seriously rumbling as well. I hope you can't hear it through the microphone.

Brett: Yeah, I have this big lunch box behind me. I'll try not to rummage in it too much. So, we'll see.

Ashton: Well, today we have Addy Falgoust who is a park guide here in Yellowstone. We're going to talk to her a little bit more about her job and what it's like. And so as a part guide, you know, if you're a visitor to Yellowstone, you might see them out and about either in the visitor center, roaming park trails, park-guided walks and talks, things like that. So along those same lines, we have the Junior Ranger program and it's pretty popular.

Brett: Yes, I've heard of it.

Ashton: It's in a bunch of different parks, Yellowstone as well. So my question for you, do you happen to know how many Junior Ranger badges are awarded here in Yellowstone?

Brett: Every year?

Ashton: Every year.

Brett: Number of Junior Ranger badges... so not just people who, like, get the books and don't go through to graduate?

Ashton: Correct.

Brett: I'm going to say... I'm trying to see if Miles would give me any hints here because he orders the badges. I think it's like I'm going to say 160,000.

Ashton: Oooh. Wow, That's more than I thought you're going to guess. But really, you're not too far off. So in the past couple of years, you know, we've had a few weird years with COVID and the flood and stuff, so it's been a little lower the past few years, but it's been about 50,000.

Brett: Okay. I'm like, So come on, Junior Rangers, step up.

Ashton: Yeah, Yeah.

Brett: But this year is going to be the year know 160,000.

Ashton: But in a normal year, it's about 50,000 to 100,000. So, you're not too far off.

Brett: That's that is a lot of Junior Rangers being sworn in.

Ashton: It's a lot more than I thought.

Brett: It's a lot of oath-takers.

Ashton: Yeah.

Brett: We're in good hands.

Ashton: Yes, we are. All the Junior Rangers out there. So, anyway, we're going to talk with Addy more about she does in the park. So, Addy, thanks for joining us.

Addy: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Ashton: How are you doing?

Addy: I'm doing well.

Ashton: Good, good. So, ready to dive in?

Addy: Absolutely.

Ashton: Okay. So how did you get your start with the National Park Service?

Addy: So I got my start in 2017 as an intern in Glacier Bay National Park.

Ashton: And that's in Alaska?

Addy: That's correct. Yeah. It often gets mistaken for a glacier in Montana. So often I do specify Glacier BAY in Alaska.

Brett: I heard that emphasis on BAY. Yeah.

Ashton: Cool. And so what drew you to that? Did you always know you wanted to be a park ranger?

Addy: So growing up, my family traveled to national parks. I think a lot of people in this career and they kind of, you know, was really interested. I fell in love with the Tetons and I was like, I want to live where they are one day. And the way to live there is to become a park ranger. So simple enough, I'll just just do that. And, you know, it got a little bit more complicated than that. But in high school and college, I started to look more seriously into pursuing a career in that direction. I actually visited Yellowstone in college and spoke to some Rangers on that trip and asked them, "Hey, how do I get into this field?" And they gave me some good information on internship programs like the SCA and also how to find jobs in USA Jobs.

Brett: What is that, SCA, just for those who don't know?

Addy: Yeah. So the SCA is the Student Conservation Association, and the internship that I did in Glacier Bay was through them. Ashton: Okay. And so what exactly did you do?

Addy: Yeah. So the position there was an education intern, and Glacier Bay has pretty few visitors that actually set foot on the land there. And the number of visitors in the winter is pretty much nonexistent. And so most of the visitation is in the summer on cruise ships. So in the winter, they have a pretty robust distance learning program. So we were actually using Zoom before COVID and before Zoom really became a thing and essentially taking students on virtual whale-watching tours and field trips to the park.

Ashton: Wow.

Brett: Wow. That sounds like a good gig. Yeah. So you're on a boat, like, while you're doing this?

Addy: No. So we were in an office with a green screen that made it look like we were on a boat. I did get to go out with the oceanography team, though, which was really fun one day and we got to take water samples. So I did get to have that experience in the bay, but most of the time was spent in the office.

Ashton: Okay, so did you go from Glacier Bay and then Yellowstone or were there other stops in between?

Addy: There are few steps in between, yeah. So after Glacier Bay, I did a couple of seasonal positions as an interpretive park ranger and also an education position in Grand Teton National Park. And then I was pretty fortunate to get offered a permanent job pretty early on in my career. And that was in Hot Springs, Arkansas. That was also a park guide position. I was there for a few months and then took a lateral reassignment to a part guide position here, and I've been here since it's been about four and a half years, I think.

Ashton: Okay. So tell us a little bit about being in Yellowstone. A lot of people don't know that there are actually park Ranger rangers that live on the interior of the park. So what that means is like, you know, not at any of the park entrances. And so Yellowstone closes down in the winter. So you're you know, you're at Lake Lake Village outside Yellowstone Lake. So tell us what that is like. Like, how did you even get here this morning? Talk us through what that is like.

Addy: Yeah. So essentially, we kind of get snowed in and the winter and often we, you know, things are complicated, but there's a lot of snowmobiling to your car and then transitioning to take your car to a location. Currently we have less snow this year, which you think would make traveling easier, but it's actually made things more complicated because my car is at one location, but there's not enough snow for me to snowmobile from the roads. I have enough snow on them to my car, so I have to take like an in-between car to get to my car. So to get to the studio this morning, I took a snowmobile and a couple of vehicles. So and it took about 2 hours. Whereas normally if I could just snowmobile straight here, it would have been probably 30 minutes faster than that.

Brett: So, wow, that is dedication and confidence that we appreciate you.

Addy: Yeah, but those of us in the interior look for excuses to get out. So I was very happy to be out here today.

Ashton: Wow. Well, we're glad you're joining us and that you took the long trek to come all the way up here.

Brett: What's your typical like? How often do you get out to get groceries and things like that?

Addy: So it really varies depending on the year. Typically, I try to stockpile groceries in the fall so that I never need to go out specifically for a grocery trip. But if I happen to be out for another reason, then I always get groceries. But I'd say usually in a normal year I probably leave twice a month each winter. So every two weeks.

Ashton: Okay. So I've seen some park rangers who live in the interior in winter. They do a lot of canning. Are you into that?

Addy: No, I am the unhealthy ranger that lives off of pasta and frozen pizza.

Brett: Ramen!

Ashton: Hey, it's delicious.

Addy: I don't do any canning, but, you know, if you just eat a lot of pasta, dry goods, that stays really well. So I can really stock up in the fall.

Ashton: Wow. So in a typical winter, like one that we're not having now with not as much snow, you would normally just snowmobile everywhere, correct?

Addy: Yes. Yeah, I snowmobile to my vehicle at whatever entrance it's located at. And typically it's not a big deal. You know, I actually really enjoy snowmobiling most of the time and there's incredible opportunities to see wildlife along the way. Amazing scenery. The sunrises and sunsets in the winter are always really special. So although it has its challenges, overall, I really like living at Lake. There's incredible opportunities for skiing around the neighborhood. But it's not to say it doesn't come without its challenges.

Ashton: Mmhmm, for sure. So in your current position as part guide, do you have a typical day? Can you tell us a little bit what that's like? I know it probably varies from day to day.

Addy: I'd say my I have a typical summer day and a typical winter day. Would you like to know about both of those or just one of the seasons?

Ashton: Sure!

Addy: Okay, so in this summer, a typical day, a third of it is usually spent working the visitor center, front desk, answering questions, helping people plan their trips, answering questions about what birds they're seeing, animals they're seeing, like the number of questions we get. You know, you never know what's going to come out of someone's mouth. Search me all over the place. Another third of the day is typically spent leading a ranger guided program. So that can be a talk, a campfire program, a walk. And the remaining third of the day is typically spent out in the field roving and so talking to visitors on boardwalks and some of the thermal areas, interacting with people at wildlife jams, making sure no one's petting bison.

Brett: Very important.

Addy: Yeah. So that's kind of a typical summer day in the winter. My job is kind of unique and then I staff a building called a Warming Hut and so, you know, most people are kind of putting out figurative fires in their day to day work. And my job is literally to go and start a fire. So I go to the warming head, start a fire. And the purpose of that is to serve as a place for snowmobile groups to stop in and warm up. That's the sole source of heat for the building. So depending on the day, if it's really cold out, it could be ten degrees inside. When I get there, it take a few hours to get up to temperature, but we try to get at about 60 degrees in the building and interact with groups as they stop by throughout the day. The fishing bridge warming hut is a quieter location, so on average we've got about 20 to 40 people that stop per day and in between groups. Surprisingly. And cell service is actually really good at that location. So I'm able to plug into a mobile hotspot and respond to visitor trip planning emails. I've helped with social media at times as well, and so I can stay connected and do other work in between groups. So it's more kind of office and admin work mixed in with splitting firewood.

Ashton: Wow. Wuite a variety of skills required.

Addy: Yes.

Ashton: And so where do you live? Like what are your living accommodations like? I'm sure a lot of people are wondering.

Addy: That's the number one question I get asked at the Warming Hut. And what I usually tell those visitors that are asking is that we have housing at each of the developed locations in the park. So my housing area is only a couple of miles away, so it's just a couple-mile snowmobile ride to the warming hut. Often groups get there and like, how did you get here? And I'm like, well, I snowmobiled here just like you, but like I had the easy commute. Like they're snowmobiling 26 miles just to get to me. I only did two.

Brett: I just crawled out of the lake.

All: [laughter]

Ashton: Which you probably could this winter because it's not frozen.

Addy: Yeah, I did a training once in the park where I spent the night in a snow trench and sometimes I do consider telling people that when they ask, where do you live? Where do you sleep at night? I'm like, Yeah, just in a trench in the snow over there.

Brett: I've been here a few years, so they moved me to the three-bedroom snow trench. Yeah, they take care of us here.

Ashton: So what's the most important skill you'd say for your job?

Addy: Yeah, the most important skill in my position is probably communication. So as an interpretive position, it's really important to communicate these messages and try to foster a connection between the people that are visiting Yellowstone and the resources that we have here in the park. And so being able to tailor messages for specific audiences is really important in order to communicate that effectively and try to hopefully inspire the next generation of stewards for these lands.

Brett: What's one of the like hardest or most memorable questions that you've had asked?

Addy: Oooh. That's a good one. So this is a funny one. But the most memorable question, there was a girl. She was probably about 12 years old and she was really shy. I was at Mud Volcano and I could tell she was kind of embarrassed to ask this question. Her mom was like, She has a question. And I was like, Sure. And she was like, I don't know if I want to ask. I was like, No, like, go for it. No judgment. And her question was, how do you bison poop in such perfect circles?

All: [laughter]

Addy: And I loved it because so often we get the same question over and over again. And so that I'd never gotten that once before, and I've never gotten that one since. And so, you know, I took a moment and I was like, well, it has to come. It has to do with the consistency in which the poop comes out. So it's like pancake batter, if you think of it like that. Yeah, like spreads out in a circle, I'm like, it doesn't come out that shape. Yeah. So I think that helped her out. So I wonder if she thinks about that.

Brett: Eating your pancakes that you bring to the office. But it's a great way of explaining it.

Ashton: Yeah, I'm going to think about that every time I see some bison poop out there. So what is your favorite part of the job? Addy: My favorite part of the job is probably getting to re-experience the magic of Yellowstone through the eyes of first time visitors. I've literally had kids jumping up and down for joy when they saw Grizzly Bear for the first time. And I've seen adults like cower when they hear a bull bison grunt during the ride. And those moments just remind me of like, how special this place is. They allow me to remember why I fell in love with this place and why it's worth protecting. That's great. Yeah.

Ashton: Yeah. And so on the other side of that coin of that, you know, there's great parts of the job, maybe some that are not so great or just a little tough. What's like the toughest part of your job?

Addy: I would say I think the toughest part of my job is probably dealing with angry and frustrated visitors. You know, people are coming here on vacation and everything supposed to go right for them. And when it doesn't go right and they're on vacation, they really want someone to blame and someone to give them answers for that. And being a frontline staff member, we're kind of the face for the park. So we're often the person that receives the brunt of that anger and aggression. And especially in the middle of the summer, if you're receiving that day after day, multiple times a day. And often these complaints are about things that we have little to no control over. Sometimes they're because of natural disasters like floods. It can be really hard to deal with that.

Brett: Yeah. Yeah. It takes patience.

Addy: Yes.

Ashton: Yes, lots of patience.

Ashton: So even with those kind of tougher parts of the job, why do you still want to work as a park guide or work for the Park Service? What is it that keeps bringing you back?

Addy: Yeah, although there can be tough days and those negative people, I think the good days and the good people really outweigh it. You might have someone who's mad at you one moment and then you have a really special connection with a junior ranger the next. And it just reminds you kind of why we were doing this. Also, just having an opportunity to live here is something that I try not to take for granted. There's incredible recreational opportunities that I have right in my backyard, and I've also had incredible wildlife sightings, literally from my couch, like I've seen bears and coyotes. I think the only thing I haven't seen out of my back window is a wolf. But there's not a lot of places in the world where you have opportunities for recreation like you do in a national park and opportunities for these really incredible wildlife sightings. And so I think those moments remind me of why I'm here, why I'm doing this. They're incredibly rewarding personally, but they also remind me of the importance of protecting that so that other people can experience that too.

Brett: My gosh, like being at lake in the winter when it's slower has got to be so quiet and peaceful.

Addy: Yeah, I mean, the other morning actually Sunday, I went to the warming hut and there were four wolves in the road.

Ashton: Wow.

Addy: And that was like on my two-mile snowmobile commute to work, got to my office and I saw four wolves at my office. And I've seen foxes and coyotes passing in front of that building as well. And I was all alone. No one else was there. And so it's a really special moment when you have moments like that. And those moments always kind of take me back to why I'm here. And I, I find that some of my best moments in the park, best sunrises, sunsets, rainbows, wildlife sightings have occurred on some of my most difficult days. And so it's like even though there are those tough days, the park always finds a way to remind me of why why I'm here.

Ashton: Yeah, that reminds me of a time few years ago I was driving home. It was a Friday at the end of the work day, just trying to get back to the office, and I got stuck in this bison jam for 2 hours, so I didn't get home till, like, 8 p.m. Yeah, but it's moments like that, like a lot of those people are experiencing that for the first time and it's super cool. They get to be in a place like that where you get to have those types of experiences. And sightings.

Addy: And when you're frustrated in that bison jam, but you look over at like a little kid who's just glued to the window, can't believe what's happening. Kind of makes it a little easier. At least you're not stuck on an interstate somewhere.

Ashton: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So do you have a defining moment? You've talked about some cool, like, sightings and things, so you get to experience living in the interior in winter. Is there like, one moment that really stands out to you as, like, a career-defining moment?

Addy: Yeah. I don't know if this is a defining moment, but when I thought about this a moment that made me feel like I was really in the right place and doing a good job and something that I was really proud of happened a couple of summers ago. I had a father and daughter asking questions, and the daughter, the father is the main one, asking the questions. And the daughter was really curious and she started chiming in and so she'd ask a question. I'd give her an answer. She'd ask another question. And so a really natural flow of conversation began. I even went and got a bear skull and brought it out to show her. And I was sitting on the porch with this bare skull talking to her about it. And I remember she looked up at me and said, Ranger Addy, I love learning with you.

Ashton: Awww.

Addy: And it really just melted my heart because it felt like all of this was worth it. And I really was having an impact and inspiring the next generation of stewards for these lands. And after that, her father pulled me aside and was like, I just want to tell you, like, I really appreciate that you took the time to speak with her and answer all her questions. He was like, I know she had a lot of questions and he's like, I don't know if you know that the impact that that had on her. And I didn't even realize that the time or tell him, but I don't think they realized the impact that they also had on me because that was just reminded me of why I'm here and why I'm doing this.

Brett: And that's kind of one of the interesting things about your job is it's less like quantifiable all the impacts that you have. And so like, who knows what that little girl is going to grow up to be or do?

Addy: I know you were talking about Junior Ranger badges in the intro and after I answered all those questions for her, I was like, Well, you you're working on a Junior Ranger book, right? She said she'd never heard of the program. And so I got her a book and she was like, I want you to be the Ranger to swear me in. Like, When are you working again? Tomorrow at 10 a.m. is the one hour that I'll be there. Got a deadline for this because I'm going to be on my weekend backpacking. And she was like, I'm finishing it. And so she came back. I think she was only six, but she did all of her work that day and came back the next morning and I got to swear her in. So maybe she'll be in this position in the future, you know? Maybe she'll be a Ranger one day.

Ashton: That's awesome. And that's a lasting impact, too. Yeah, it's really cool.

Ashton: So we'll get into the nitty gritty of your job. The park guide position that you're in, do you know what the series is on USA Jobs? So if people want to go apply, what should they look for?

Addy: Yeah, the series is 0090.

Ashton: And do you know, are those like entry level jobs? How far up the ladder can they go with those?

Addy: Yeah. So part guide positions are typically more entry level and mine is a GS-5 position.

Ashton: And do you need any formal training or anything like that?

Addy: There's no formal training needed for this position. Just having experience in education and interpretation is helpful. Ashton: Okay. So if you were to give somebody advice, like what type of experience they should get, yeah, what would you tell them?

Addy: My recommendation would be just get experience where you can, whether that's like volunteering at your local environmental center, which is something that I did, or working at a nearby state park. If you can get experience in interpretation and environmental education, that's going to be a really good way to get your foot in the door.

Brett: And how did you I mean, obviously you have to know a lot about the resource to answer all those questions about circular bison poop. So so how I mean, is that just the stuff that you research kind of on the job or on your own just because you're curious? How how do you get that knowledge?

Addy: I'd say a combination of both. I had visited here I don't know how many times before working here, probably five times with my family and so from that I just had a lot of basic knowledge of what are the popular sites to see and how do you be a visitor here? Because I had visited, so I kind of had some of that background knowledge. I had some knowledge on the ecosystem that I learned when working in Grand Teton National Park. Some of that was on the job learning, some of that was reading before I did that position. And then since I've been here, I'd say more of the knowledge that I've acquired has been on the job, either reading different references, learning from fellow Rangers is probably one of the biggest ways that I learn and just answering questions. It's really scary as your first day being a ranger, working at the front desk, having to answer questions, But that's the only way that you're going to know what people are asking and know what information you need to know.

Brett: Yeah, I've worked the front desk a few times and I'm just like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that one either.

All: [laughter]

Addy: And then you're one of the main people that is contributing to the research that we're using.

Ashton: Well, in Yellowstone, there's so much information to possibly know too.

Addy: So that's another thing that's like really kept me in Yellowstone for so long is that it's hard to get bored here because one day I'm getting questions about circular bison poop. The next day I'm getting questions from a microbiologist who knows more about the thermophiles in these features than I do. Yeah, but yeah, there's just endless knowledge to know. And so, yeah, there's still questions that I get that I don't know the answer to. And I tell them I'll go look it up and get back to you. And sometimes I it's hard to find an answer, but yeah, I try.

Ashton: Well, that's really cool. And so the last thing we like to ask people, what is your favorite memory that you've had? It could be here in Yellowstone or any other national park since it sounds like you've you've worked and visited lots of different national parks. Do you have a favorite moment you've had?

Addy: So something that stands out to me as a moment I had here in Yellowstone and it doesn't involve wildlife or hiking or thermal features like you might expect it to. It actually involves the ice on Yellowstone Lake, which I know some of you here have heard me go on and on about the ice on Yellowstone Lake. Yellowstone Lake freezes in the winter and living at lake. This is something that is a pretty exciting event to us. Like what day is ice going to free or the lake in a free is what day is it going to melt? Sometimes it sings as well, so you can't really like live our lives by the seasons of the lake and ice-off day is like my favorite day of the year. I just think it's so incredible and it doesn't happen every year. But if conditions are right as the ice breaks up, it gets pushed out of the lake at Yellowstone River, which is the only outlet to the lake, and it flows down underneath fishing bridge. And as that happens, those chunks of ice all kind of get compressed into each other. And you can stand on fishing bridge and look underneath your feet. And it's just mesmerizing, watching this like, icy slushy move. It sounds really cool, too. It's like a bunch of shards of glass almost. And usually it occurs late May, like Memorial Day weekend. And a couple of years ago, I was actually out of the park on a temporary work assignment. And I wasn't scheduled to get back until June. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to make it back in time for ice-off. And I was I was pretty sad about it because it only happens once a year. Like, it's not like, Old Faithful, it's not happening every 90 minutes. So I was really bummed that I was going to miss ice-off day and I was moving back into the park on June 3. And as I'm driving along the lake, I see that the ice is still there and it's starting to break up. And I rushed to fishing bridge, got to fishing bridge in time. I'm standing there watching the ice and listening to the sounds and I look up and there is a double rainbow!

All: Woah, cool.

Brett: [sings]

Addy: Yeah, yeah. It just felt like the lake had waited for me. And that was, that was Yellowstone's way of welcoming me back home.

Ashton: That's really cool.

Brett: I would like Yellowstone to you to welcome me back home with a double rainbow next time down there, too. So if you could, I'll try to make that happen, that'd be great.

Addy: I'll try. [laughter]

Brett: And I have to go back to one other thing you said real fast before we go, because you said it sings?

Addy: Yeah. So as the ice cracks and forms the those sound waves are kind of sent through the ice and you get these really unique sounds. It kind of sounds like lightsabers. It doesn't happen often. Conditions have to be just right, but it's really cool when it does occur.

Brett: Sorry, can you give us a like, what does it sound like? Can you give us your best impression?

Addy: Yeah, it's like, pew! Pew! Pew! There's other sounds too, but those are the coolest sounds.

Brett: That's cool. I'll be listening for light sabers next time I'm down there.

All: [laughter]

Ashton: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Addy.

Brett: Yes, thank you.

Addy: Thanks for having me today. Yeah, this was really fun.

Ashton: Well, that's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Addy Falgoust. If you like what we do, write and review the show wherever you listen. Every positive review helps do listeners find the show. If you have questions or want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast. Thanks for listening!

Among park rangers, there’s a running joke that we do a lot of pointing at things. From pointing out wildlife to pointing out the nearest bathroom, we’ve arguably mastered the art of pointing. But being a park ranger or park guide entails SO much more! Today’s guest, Park Guide Addy Falgoust, talks about her experiences teaching people about Yellowstone’s marvels and what it’s like to live and work in the park during winter.

View definitions and links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, park guide

March 20, 2024

1. Pat Bigelow, Fisheries Biologist

Transcript

Transcript

Brett Raeburn From Yellowstone National Park. This is what we do. I'm Brett Raeburn.

Jake Frank And I'm Jake Frank.

Brett Raeburn So I have a question for you to kick this off. What's the, What's the biggest fish that you've ever caught?

Jake Frank The biggest fish I've ever. I was. I used to live in Alaska, and I went halibut fishing, and I caught, like, a 40 pound halibut. That's the. That's the biggest I've ever caught.

Brett Raeburn It's a way bigger than you're gonna say I was expecting.

Jake Frank And that's like, a.

Brett Raeburn Much less impressive size.

Jake Frank Well, that is a, that's a fairly unimpressive halibut. So for that species anyway.

Brett Raeburn Well you've got me beat.

Jake Frank Are you, are you, are you big into fishing.

Brett Raeburn No, about the only fishing I do is when I'm fishing through the freezer for frozen cod that I get from the store. So that's about. That's about as much as I do.

Jake Frank Before you cook it. Do you, like, hold it out in front of you and have someone take a picture so it looks better.

Brett Raeburn I have been known to do that. Follow my Instagram for all that content. Yeah. I also I also want to I want to start off with a trivia question, too, just to see. So you've caught you've got some pretty impressive fish, it sounds like.

Jake Frank Not really.

Brett Raeburn If you turn, you turn over that paper in front of you. There's something on there that I would like you to try to pronounce. You have not seen this before. So this is.

Jake Frank Alright? Let's see. Can I. Can I sound it out? So, Encore, Hankis, Clarki Lewisi?

Pat Bigelow Was that.

Brett Raeburn I was. I was. Well, I actually don't know. This is like one of those trivia questions I don't even know the right answer to. So. Sure you did. Well, all right, That's better than what I would’ve done.

Jake Frank But my guess is that this is the is this the binomial name for the Yellowstone cutthroat trout?

Brett Raeburn Yes, that is the scientific name for the West Slope. Cutthroat trout.

Jake Frank The West Slope. Not that. Not the Yellowstone. Okay.

Brett Raeburn All right. And so today we're going to talk to somebody who probably can pronounce it better than you just did, although I still think that was a pretty good pretty good guess. Our guest today is Pat Bigelow, fisheries biologist who spends a lot of her time on the waters of Yellowstone National Park. So welcome, Pat. How's it going?

Pat Bigelow Hey, Brett and hey Jake. Great. Beautiful day today.

Jake Frank Yeah, it is.

Pat Bigelow And You did pretty good: Oncorhynchus.

Jake Frank Oncorhynchus.

Jake Frank All right. So I was in the wheelhouse.

Pat Bigelow Yeah.

Brett Raeburn I love the Lewisi Clarki.

Jake Frank Is that how you see it? Or is it a line that that works?

Pat Bigelow Yeah that works, Lewisi Clarkii.

Pat Bigelow Yeah.

Brett Raeburn All right. I wonder where that came from.

Jake Frank I don't. I don't speak a lot of Latin.

Jake Frank So.

Brett Raeburn So I guess we'll just jump right into it. How long have you been working as a fisheries biologist? Well, as any job. How long have you been at Yellowstone National Park?

Pat Bigelow I've been here in this job for 23 years.

Brett Raeburn Wow.

Pat Bigelow I've been working in fisheries for 36 years.

Jake Frank Probably so. Fresh out of middle school.

Pat Bigelow Yeah.

Pat Bigelow Exactly.

Pat Bigelow Yeah.

Pat Bigelow I was really fortunate that I got some great opportunities early in life.

Brett Raeburn Very cool. And so how did you get your start here? 20, 23 years ago.

Pat Bigelow Actually, my first job was here in 1979. I was in Bozeman working a summer job, and I went down to the unemployment office to see if I could just give something better. And there was a poster up on the wall for a young Adult Conservation Corps in Yellowstone National Park, and I jumped at it. It sounded interesting.

Pat Bigelow I came down here. We had a I don't know if you guys are familiar with the YCC camp, but when we were actual Corps members, we had a girls dorm, boys dorm and a dining hall and six Corps members to a room you each had a bunk bed, a foot locker and half of the clothes locker and no dividers or anything like that.

Pat Bigelow You know, you definitely felt like you had just been recruited into some kind of institution. [laughing]

Brett Raeburn In some ways that is that maybe.

Pat Bigelow Yeah.

Pat Bigelow But it was great because we had 100 Corps members who all worked for different offices in the park, and I was very fortunate. A friend of mine and I that started at the same time to work with Fish and Wildlife Service and back then Fish and Wildlife Service did the fisheries work in Yellowstone.

Jake Frank Well, when did that change? That went from Fisheries.

Pat Bigelow To Park Service?

Jake Frank Yeah, to Park Service.

Pat Bigelow I think it was in 96.

Jake Frank Okay.

Pat Bigelow So the Fish and Wildlife Service started here even before the Park Service because of the unique fisheries opportunity and the Yellowstone cutthroat in particular. And then they established a research station in the fifties. They had a hatchery here early on, early twenties, thirties into the fifties. And then after that, they kind of went more to a research station, and then they had a management office, which is who I worked for that advises the Park Service, kind of like a fish and game agency.

Pat Bigelow You know, advises the state on how to set their regulations. Fish and Wildlife Service. And kinda kept the Park Service up to date on there.

Jake Frank And my my history is not great, but I if I remember reading, it's even before the National Park Service, there was, like, the predecessor to the Fish and Wildlife Services who stocked the lakes and did a lot of the fisheries stuff in Yellowstone.

Pat Bigelow Correct US Fish Commission back then as early as 1889. Yeah, we're doing some stocking in Yellowstone National Park.

Jake Frank Wow. Yeah. A lot of history.

Pat Bigelow Yeah.

Pat Bigelow Yeah, yeah.

Pat Bigelow Fisheries history in the in the park is really kind of a reflection of fisheries management history for the country, really.

Brett Raeburn Yeah. Yeah, That's awesome. So when you started, did you know it sounds like you kind of just saw a poster and. And got a little lucky in that way? Did you know that there were jobs where people worked with fish in national parks?

Pat Bigelow I hate to say I probably shouldn't even tell you this, but when.

Brett Raeburn We can edit it out if we need to. [laughing]

Pat Bigelow When I first moved to Bozeman, one of my coworkers said, Well, have you been to Yellowstone Park yet? As I was trying to figure out what to do for the weekend. And I said, What do you mean, a park? Is it, you know, like ferris wheels?

Jake Frank Yeah, does it have slides? [laughing]

Brett Raeburn I've had visitors ask me where the zip lines are. So, yeah, I think I think that's a well.

Jake Frank To be fair, they’re in West Yellowstone. So.

Pat Bigelow And I want to say I was very young then.

Brett Raeburn Sure. Lots to learn. Yeah. So. So you hadn't you, you were pleasantly surprised that there were actually jobs where you could do that, then?

Pat Bigelow That was awesome. And one of my first full weeks working for the Fish and Wildlife Service, they were doing their annual survey on Yellowstone Lake of the cutthroat trout. And so it meant spending a week on a boat gillnetting on the lake. And we spent a night in in the Park Service cabin on Peel Island because we were doing work in that area and we wanted to stay close to it.

Pat Bigelow And unlike typical weather on Yellowstone Lake, it was Bluebird days and flat, calm water the whole week and then the cutthroat that we were catching. If you haven't ever seen cutthroat trout, they are beautiful fish.

Brett Raeburn Can you describe them for those of us who haven't seen one.

Pat Bigelow So, so. So they're called cutthroat because they have a red slash under there on either side, under their jaw. And they, you know, a kind of a typical trout. They have the same, you know, body form and then black spots more on the tail and you get less as you move forward toward the head. But, they can get really brightly colored and they tend to be olive yellow, brown.

Pat Bigelow And they can, especially during spawning season, they can get this brilliant red sides and a circular plates and stuff. They can they're just beautiful.

Brett Raeburn That's cool. That's cool.

Jake Frank Well, yeah. When we came out on the boat this summer, when you guys were doing your research, you were pulling out some hogs that were huge.

Brett Raeburn Yeah. Yeah. So you've got a fish bigger than Jake's 40 pounder?

Pat Bigelow Not a cutthroat. [laughing]

Brett Raeburn It's all about competition here. So. So describe to us like a typical day. So obviously, there's going to be a lot of variance. But if you if someone asked you what your typical day like is as a fisheries biologist, what was it like? What would you tell them?

Pat Bigelow Well, so it really it does really vary a lot. You know, obviously in the winter we're not doing a lot of fieldwork. We are in the office kind of processing everything that happened last year and trying to plan ahead for next year, which includes hiring, which can be a lot of work, doing a lot of presentations to let people know what we know and where we think we need to go next and all that kind of thing.

Pat Bigelow But the field work in the summer, all my work is on Yellowstone Lake and it's a beautiful lake. I have, I oversee some contract work on the lake, which is 3 to 4 crews, sometimes five of netters, to try to depress the lake trout population. Lake trout are an invasive species on Yellowstone Lake, and they'll eat the cutthroat trout.

Pat Bigelow And so we're trying to eliminate them. We're not likely going to eliminate them, but hopefully we're going to suppress them to the point where they're no longer having an impact on the cutthroat trout population. And so we have these gillnet crews that will put out miles of gillnet and lift it every day to remove the lake trout. We also have a telemetry operation where we purposely put acoustic tags in male lake trout and let them go and then kind of relocate them so we can give that information to the netters to help zero in on their day on, you know, where to put their nets and stuff.

Jake Frank So that that term I've heard that I heard it with something else. So it's like invasive species. You can like you put a tracker on them and they go to where they, like, you know, betray their friends. This whole idea of like a Judas species, like can you talk a little bit about that? That's like, that always made me laugh.

Pat Bigelow The idea of of a Judas fish is you would put a tag in them that you can follow and they take you to where their friends are.

Pat Bigelow [laughing]

Pat Bigelow Betray their friends. And it's not you know, we kind of know we pretty much know where all the habitat is, but they move around a lot. And depending on the time of year and the water temperatures, they’ll be at different depths. So a lot of times the that Judas fish helps you really zero in on the depths to be fishing at, which also helps you avoid the cutthroat trout if you know exactly what depths the lake trout are at.

Pat Bigelow And so like so if I'm on a boat where we're doing the tagging, we'll collect lake trout from the netters that are still in really lively condition and do surgery and the implant first, make sure they're males. We don't want to tag the females because they're the ones with the reproductive potential. so we want to make sure we kill all the females and then implant tags, make sure the fish recover so that they'll behave normally when we release them and let them go.

Pat Bigelow Or if it's actually tracking the fish, we’ll we have to hydrophones in the water on either side of the boat, which helps us give a direction to find the fish, so we can zero in on their location. And so then you're basically on the lake driving predetermined transects all day until you pick up a fish and then you zero in on that fish and then you continue on your way.

Brett Raeburn And for like the listeners who haven't seen Yellowstone Lake or been to it, it's it's a huge it's a huge lake. So that's not an easy task.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. So it takes us about four days to cover the whole lake. Yeah.

Brett Raeburn Wow.

Pat Bigelow And we don't actually even cover the whole lake because we avoid the really deep habitat, because we aren't expecting to see any lake trout out there. And we're not going to set nets there anyway.

Jake Frank And then and then I think a good back story is like we talk about lake trout being invasive versus the Yellowstone cutthroat. I mean, I guess is is there a reason why we as managers prefer one over the other? Like, why like, why are we trying to get rid of lake trout?

Pat Bigelow So the cutthroat trout, Yellowstone cutthroat trout, like I’ve said already couple of times they're just beautiful. But they are the native species in Yellowstone, Lake, Yellowstone Lake is the most important population of Yellowstone cutthroat trout for that species. And just sheer numbers. And they evolved with only one other native species, which is the longnose dace that is, you know, gets to maybe six inches and is very much along just the shorelines.

Brett Raeburn That's the fish I would catch. [laughing]

Pat Bigelow So they're just the cutthroat trout are naive when it comes to larger fish, predator spore and the lake trout are native to the Great Lakes area and they're also beautiful fish, but they are a voracious predator. And so you take a really naive fish and then I really excellent predator and put them together. And it's just not good for the for the cutthroat trout and the lake trout,

Pat Bigelow I think the oldest one on record was 62 years old.

Jake Frank The lake trout?

Pat Bigelow Not from Yellowstone. But yeah, species wise. So if we weren't out there taking out the lake trout, nobody else would be either. There they reside deeper in the lake. They live longer, they get bigger. They have a lot higher reproductive potential than the cutthroat trout. And if left unchecked, they would decimate the cutthroat trout population.

Jake Frank And when you say, like no one else would get them, you mean like other predators, like bears and fish or bears and birds and otters and all that kind of stuff, right?

Pat Bigelow Like birds and they tend most predators tend to target the fish when they're shallow and the lake trout don't spend much time being shallow. And then when the lake trout get big, they're too big. Like an osprey might try to grab a big fish. And then we've...I haven't seen this personally, but one of my coworkers has seen an Osprey grab, even a cutthroat that was too big for it and then it wouldn't fly off and it actually drowned.

Brett Raeburn wow.

Pat Bigelow Because they have they can have a hard time letting go of a fish once they get their talons through it.

Brett Raeburn It's like like the monkey with the banana in the barrel situation.

Pat Bigelow But yeah, lake trout. Well, they're impressive in their ability to eat other fish and can eat a fish, the only thing that stops them is how wide they can get their mouth open and they can eat a fish two thirds their own size.

Jake Frank Holy moly.

Jake Frank Yeah.

Brett Raeburn Can you do that, Jake?

Pat Bigelow [laughing]

Jake Frank No. That's like a it's like a 150 pound fish.

Brett Raeburn That's a big burrito.

Jake Frank Yeah.

Brett Raeburn So you obviously know a lot about fish, and so that's an important skill to have as a fisheries biologist. What aside from that, what are or maybe not even aside from that, what do you think is the most important skill for someone who thinks that that's a really cool job and might be interested in applying for jobs like that?

Pat Bigelow You know, it's probably similar to most jobs. I think the most important thing is to have a passion for what you're doing and positive attitude and be flexible in what you're doing day to day. If you want to actually go into fisheries. Bachelor science is an important aspect of your education. typically you're going to want to end up going back to school to specialize and get a master's degree.

Pat Bigelow I would highly recommend for anybody thinking that way to get a lot of, get a lot of experience or as much as you can between your master's before your master's and after your bachelor's. It helps you get a better idea of what's available, what kind of work you can be working in, and gives you really good skills.

Pat Bigelow So and when you do go back or get your master's degree, you are a better candidate because you're not learning everything all at once.

Brett Raeburn That's great advice and you probably want to like, go out on a boat and make sure you don't get seasick, right? Because, I mean, do people get seasick on on the lake?

Pat Bigelow They have.

Brett Raeburn Yeah, I'd imagine it gets choppy.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. And it's.

Brett Raeburn That’d be tough.

Pat Bigelow It's we we have had a few volunteers come out from different places, even other fisheries biologists that come out and you know, they're really excited to give you a hand and be helpful. And then they’re not. [laughing]

Brett Raeburn Then they’re looking for the horizon.

Jake Frank Then they’re a liability.

Brett Raeburn I've been there.

Jake Frank And a quick follow up with the Masters. If does it matter if you're specializing like, say, if somebody's like, my goal is to work in Yellowstone, do they need to get a masters related to the species that are here? Or can you like if you happen to be, say, getting your masters in some other fish species, does that you know, does that qualify you like can you learn what you need to on the job or does it really help to focus in on the like the actual species that you'll be studying in the park that you want to end up in?

Pat Bigelow I think the broader the education you have, the better. And you can focus in when you get the particular job. The other thing is e you know, even though you also might be your goal, that might not be your next step.

Jake Frank Gotcha.

Pat Bigelow So yeah.

Jake Frank That's good advice.

Pat Bigelow And then also, it's good to think outside of the box sometimes too. And if you have more familiarity with other habitats, other species and stuff, you know, you can bring in maybe a new perspective that somehow is different than what people have thought of before.

Brett Raeburn Yeah. Well, and it sounds like your typical day is is pretty cool, especially in the summer when you're out on a boat. What is your favorite part about your job?

Pat Bigelow I you can probably tell I love Yellowstone Lake. Being on the lake is awesome, but I think the most rewarding. Well, two things are most rewarding, but one is I work with amazing people and being able to sit down with a coworker and talk about strategies and you know, how things are going, what happened over here, how we can pull that together, how we can best use our crews and to just keep making things move forward is super rewarding.

Pat Bigelow But then also taking somebody like we typically have student volunteers every summer and, and they typically don't have much experience. So taking somebody who really knows nothing about what we're doing and seeing, bringing them through a season and seeing them increase their skills and increase their confidence and get more sure about what they want to do and be excited about protecting a resource, that's pretty awesome.

Pat Bigelow But then the other part is actually seeing the work that we're doing make a definite impact on protecting Yellowstone Park resources. That's really rewarding as well.

Brett Raeburn Yeah, well, and we'll let you slide. Even though you gave us three favorites.

Jake Frank Yeah, we said one, but we got three.

Brett Raeburn It's okay. That's your one Mulligan for this podcast. Okay, So with that, what would this is the hard question. What is, is the toughest part about your job?

Pat Bigelow That's a really good question, too. You know you can get frustrated with the inability to do things as quick as you want because you have to go through proper procedures to make sure, you know, just because I think something's really good to do doesn't mean it is. So there's a lot of checks and balances.

Jake Frank In the government?

Pat Bigelow [laughing]

Brett Raeburn Red tape?

Pat Bigelow Yeah. And then so that can be really frustrating. And then also supervision can be really challenging, but it's important to be able to work well with people and not just work well with them. But communication is such an important aspect of all parts of life. And even though everybody communicates every day, it just amazes me that we all have so much more to learn on how to communicate better.

Pat Bigelow So if I have an employee, for instance, how to get the best, how to help them be their best and get the best out of them can be really challenging, especially if for some reason they shouldn't have taken the job and don't really want to be there.

Jake Frank And and you mentioned earlier that you're doing hiring right now. How many people are a part of your operation?

Pat Bigelow So in the fisheries program, we have Todd Koel is our leader. Brian Ertel and I are both the fish biologists that have been here quite a long time. Andy Pochany is a new streams biologist, is doing great work. And then right now we have two student biologists, they're in the Pathways program, Cody Vender and Drew McDonald And each of us hires with the exception of Todd.

Pat Bigelow But each of us that are in the biology series hire two technicians and one intern during the summer.

Jake Frank So you guys are a big operation.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. And then on top of that, we have the contract crew that does a lot of the suppression netting, not all of it, but most of it. And they will have up to 20 people.

Jake Frank Yeah. And that there's so there's a lot of time effort and money that go into the fisheries program. Yeah.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. And Cody and I work, and Andrew, work on the lake mostly Brian, Brian Ertel and Andy cover streams outside of Yellowstone Lake.

Jake Frank Is that kind of how you like, you divide it up, it's like the lake and.

Brett Raeburn They’re the ones that get seasick.

Jake Frank Then everything else is at the how you like divide your guys work as the lake and then everything that's not Yellowstone Lake, that's kind of the dividing line.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. And Brian focuses more on Yellowstone cutthroat or and he focuses a little bit more on the West Slope cutthroat. But since they're both doing river stream work, they work together a lot.

Brett Raeburn So you talked a little bit about kind of the tougher parts of the job. So what is it about the Park Service that that keeps you here and brought you here and keeps you here, I guess.

Pat Bigelow Well, it the just the protection of the natural resources, you know, keeping the environment in it as intact as possible and just the ecosystem function and all that. It those are all great buzzwords, but it's the beauty of everything working together that really draws you in and makes you really enjoy it.

Brett Raeburn Yeah, and some of our listeners might not be super familiar with the National Park Service mission. We all had to get it tattooed on us when we took the jobs and Jake's is on his lower back, I think. Right. It's still there.

Jake Frank I can neither confirm nor deny.

Brett Raeburn But but essentially, essentially the mission is preserving the natural and cultural resources, like you said, for the enjoyment education and inspiration of this and future generations. So and you've touched on this, but how does your job contribute to this mission? It seems like a pretty direct and easy to see thing.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. yeah. We're we're spending a lot of time and effort suppressing the lake trout population so that the cutthroat trout population in Yellowstone Lake can thrive. And because that's the major population for that species of fish, it helps that whole species thrive. And it's a beautiful fish. Did I say that, already?

Brett Raeburn Yeah, yeah, you can say that one twice. That's okay.

Jake Frank And then what I've learned here, like not being a big fisherman or person who fishes, I don't know what the non gendered version of that is, but people love to fish. It's like crazy how many people are here in the summer. So it's like, you know, and the whole idea of being the like the, the homeland of the Yellowstone cutthroat trout, I mean, it's like this is like the world's largest population of that fish, right?

Jake Frank So, yeah, people come here to catch that. And it's it seems like, you know, you know, protecting it. And then people have that directly, that direct enjoyment. I mean, it seems like everybody appreciates being able to get out there and catch that big fish and put it on the gram.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. And not only we think about going out on Yellowstone like this is a huge lake and there's, you know what, three buildings on that entire lake. I mean, maybe a couple more, depending on how far away from the water you want to measure. But it's spectacular.

Brett Raeburn Yeah, You're out there. You're out there. All right, well, before we wrap up, we're going to get into what we call the nitty gritty here. So I don't want to scare listeners away. There's this is a fair warning. There's going to be some government jargon, but fear not. We've got your back. So we have an introductory episode along with some links that we're going to put in the show notes that will explain all this in detail.

Brett Raeburn So that said, for people interested in this type of career, career and you've kind of already talked about the education aspect of it. So if I want to be a fisheries biologist, what's your what's your job series in USA Jobs? Series and GS level and all that nitty gritty?

Pat Bigelow So my GS level is GS-11 and my job series is fisheries biologist 0482 and then like a lot of the seasonals that were hiring the summer, they are fishery biological technicians, parentheses, fisheries and there because there are a lot of different biological technicians and they're all in the GS 0404 series.

Brett Raeburn Awesome. And aside from the education aspect, is there any other formal training that someone needs to have to apply for this position or.

Pat Bigelow Not formal You know, a bachelor's is great, but like I said, the more experience you can get, I with different agencies, different areas, the better off are going to be.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Brett Raeburn Do you have any other advice for people interested in that career path, aside from what you've said already?

Pat Bigelow it's a great career. It's really fun. I've worked, you know, when I left here in from my first four years that I was here with the Fish and Wildlife Service, I, I did some work with the State Wyoming Game and Fish. I worked with the Fish and Wildlife Service in California, northern Idaho, Washington, every job I've ever had has been really fun.

Brett Raeburn Come work with Pat is what she's saying. All right. Well, before we let you go, we like to ask everyone that comes on the podcast. One final question. This one's my favorite. So what is your favorite story or memory in a national park? It doesn't have to be in Yellowstone, although you've been here a while, so there's a good chance it will be.

Brett Raeburn But it doesn't have to be. It can be, you know, a trip you took in during annual leave or something. But do you have any defining story or memory from a national park?

Pat Bigelow There's so many to choose from. This one is really fish related, though, so I'll share it. We were doing a snorkel survey on the Olympic Peninsula and we were snorkeling. Chinook salmon which get quite big, spring Chinook salmon in particular. They they like to hide their head. Their kind of like a little kid in that their eyes are covered, they think you can’t see them.

Pat Bigelow And so when you're snorkeling for them, you got to really look at the root wads and things because they they kind of stick their head in the root wad, and and and then you might miss them if you're not really looking closely. So I was coming down the stretch of stream that was actually pretty wide and flat and no cover.

Pat Bigelow And this spring Chinook, I could see him. He was just in the mid-water column in front of me over this gravel bar, and he saw me and he just sunk down and sat on the bottom. And I was getting closer because I was coming downstream. And as I got closer, he like got as close to the bottom as he could.

Pat Bigelow And then he actually rolled over and laid on his side.

Brett Raeburn Played dead?

Pat Bigelow Yeah. Until he went by. And then he took off.

Jake Frank If he was wearing a turtleneck shirt, he would’ve slumped into it.

Pat Bigelow It was just so funny.

Pat Bigelow To see him actually, like trying to hide where he had nothing to hide.

Brett Raeburn That's amazing. And you'd never heard of that type of behavior before, or is that just something you hadn't seen before?

Pat Bigelow I had not heard or seen it, so it was it just made me laugh.

Brett Raeburn That's awesome. So you're making scientific observations on your on your vacations, even.

Pat Bigelow Actually, that was work.

Brett Raeburn That was work? Well, work, vacation, sometimes the line gets blurred.

Pat Bigelow [laughing]

Pat Bigelow Can I tell you my favorite question?

Brett Raeburn Yeah.

Brett Raeburn That you've ever been asked? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat Bigelow Somebody at once asked me why all the Civil War battles were fought in National Parks.

Jake Frank That that. That is a great question. What does that is that's a causation. What's the what's the whole thing. Correlation, not causation.

Brett Raeburn Yeah. What was your, what was your answer?

Pat Bigelow I honestly thought they were kidding. So I started laughing and I said, well, you know, people were very civil back then. And then I could see by the look, you know, he wasn't kidding. And I got real apologetic real fast.

Pat Bigelow [laughing]

Jake Frank I think that happens to all of us. You get caught off guard with the question because people joke with us all the time. They ask us silly questions.

Brett Raeburn But especially like the people with dry humor that's like really hard to tell. You know, It's like, I don't know what to do with that.

Jake Frank Yeah.

Brett Raeburn Awesome. Well, Pat, thank you so much for joining us. It was it was really cool hearing about your job and learning a little bit a little bit more about fish, too. So I'm I'm excited to go fishing. I think when the season all starts.

Jake Frank I think, I think I am also excited to fish. But I have this weird I like the touching of fish. I don't know how hard to grab them or not. I feel like I'm like strangling them. Yeah. And I don't want to like, mess their slime up, but then they know when I'm not holding them tight enough and then they flop around and then I drop them.

Brett Raeburn So what’s the the safe? Can we get a an extra credit question here? What's the safe handling for someone who's fishing? Do you wear gloves? Do you not wear gloves?

Pat Bigelow We wear gloves. The water is really cold. Yeah. No other reason, but yeah, yeah, it helps protect the fish and it helps give you a little bit milder grip, but. But you don't want to grip them tight.

Jake Frank That's. Yeah. I feel like I'm going to squeeze the life out of.

Pat Bigelow Yeah. And if you're angling.

Brett Raeburn Don’t grip it like a burrito, do it like a baby.

Pat Bigelow Your angling if you maybe keep them in the water while you're handling them, that keeps them calmer, too.

Jake Frank I've seen this hashtag. Keep them wet. Yeah.

Brett Raeburn Yeah. Okay. And grip it like a burrito, not a baby. Yeah, right. Which. Yeah. Anyways, we'll leave it there. Anyways, thanks for joining us.

Pat Bigelow Yeah, it's been awesome.

Jake Frank Yeah, it's great talking to you, Pat. Thanks for joining us.

Brett Raeburn That's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Pat Bigelow. And if you like what we do, rate and review the show wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new people find the show. So we really appreciate it. If you have questions or you want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast. Thanks for listening.

How would you pronounce Oncorhynchus clarki lewisi? See if you got it right by listening to today’s guest, Pat Bigelow. Years ago, Pat intended to spend one summer in Montana—until she landed a seasonal job working on Yellowstone Lake. Now, she’s a fisheries biologist with decades of experience studying and restoring native fish to the park’s waters.

Learn more about fish management in Yellowstone at go.nps.gov/YELLFishMgmt

View definitions & links discussed in this episode at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger, fisheries biologist, native conservation fish program

Season 1 Trailer

Introducing: Yellowstone National Park's What We Do Podcast

Transcript

Transcript

Jake: From Yellowstone National Park. This is what we do. Hey, everyone, and welcome to the What We Do podcast. I'm Jake Frank. Our team of four will be interviewing ten people over the next ten weeks to take you behind the scenes to share stories from people who work for the National Park Service in the world's first national Park. So, first things first. Hi, team. How's everybody doing?

Ashton and Brett: Hey Jake!

Miles: Awesome.

Jake: Why don't we do some quick team intros? So, if we do, let's say your name, your title, or maybe your division. How long you've been in Yellowstone, what your favorite hobbies, ha no. And maybe if there's any other parks you've worked at. Miles?

Miles: All right. I'm Miles Barger. I'm the publications program manager here at Yellowstone in the Division of Resource Education and Youth Programs. I've been in Yellowstone for about three years this time around. I worked here earlier in my career as well. And I've also worked at Denali National Park and Black Kane of the Gunnison National Park and at Harpers Ferry Center. You can look that up if you want to know what it is.

Jake: Brett, what about you?

Brett: Yeah. So, I'm the newbie here. I've only been in Yellowstone for about two years so far. Before that, I was at Shenandoah National Park for 12 years, and I'm the digital media specialist here, which basically deals with the website social media, the NPS app and digital exhibits in the visitor centers. Ashton how long have you been here?

Ashton: Well, Yellowstone's actually my first park, and I've been here for about four years now as digital communications specialist for the superintendent's office. So, working on similar types of things, as Brett said, social media and the like. So, what about you, Jake?

Jake: I'm the I'm the old guy here, apparently. I've been here a little less than eight years, got here in 2016. I've worked at a handful of parks. I started in the Tetons and then went to Glacier, then Carlsbad Caverns, then up to Denali. Miles woot woot!

Miles: Yeah.

Jake: And then worked for Rocky. Also, Miles! Woot woot!

Brett: So, Miles has been following Jake.

Miles: Yeah, I’ve been following Jake.

Jake: And then Yellowstone. And then I got my first permanent job in Glacier doing media and then came here permanently. I also am a digital communication specialist like Ashton. I also work in the superintendent's office with Ashton, but it seems like everybody here on the team are all involved in media, web, social photography, videography, kind of everything podcasting. Now our resume is getting longer the longer we're here. So that's good stuff. Yeah. So now they know who we are. Let's give you some of the highlights of the park. So as far as the employees and the money. Yellowstone has about 750 employees each year and 350 of those are year-round permanent employees. And in addition to our paid staff, we also have about 450 volunteers that help with various things throughout the park. We have a federal appropriation, so the money that we get from Congress, you know, when a budget's passed is around $40 million, but it takes at least double that to operate the park each year. So, I think last year it was around $81 or $82 million. And, you know, if you're a budget person, you're like, how does it work, you know, to run a park on 80 million if you only get 40 million? And basically, we make up the difference through other revenue streams, like, you know, when you come to the park and pay an entrance fee or if you're a commercial, the if you are a commercial tour operator in the park. And then we also have philanthropic donations. So, people who donate to the park or our nonprofit Yellowstone Forever and all that money is not even including the major infrastructure project dollars, because some years with projects included, we spend upwards of like $125 million each year.

Miles: Yeah, and let's talk about Yellowstone's resources. Yellowstone itself is a pretty big park for 2.2 million acres, not the largest park in the lower 48. I think we're Second Death Valley is 3 million or something, but we are pretty big. 2.2 million acres. And even more than that, Yellowstone is at the heart of the surrounding area, which is known as the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, which is, you know, if we didn't have these made-up, straight-line boundaries of the park, it's where our wildlife migrate and where we share a lot of our processes and things like that. So, it's a huge area geologically speaking. Yellowstone is an active volcano, and it sits atop a cooling magma chamber and when water's heated by the cooling magma chamber, we get hydrothermal features like geysers and hot springs. So that's it's a wildlife and those are what we're most famous for in the geysers. And hot springs are what Yellowstone stone was originally set aside to protect. And Yellowstone is actually home to 10,000 hydrothermal features and over half the world's active geysers.

Brett: Yeah. So, if the volcano goes off, will be the first to let you all know.

Miles: I don't think we'll be able to let them know.

Brett: We'll broadcast live as soon as that happens, to let you guys know. So, make sure you subscribe so you can find that out. Yeah. So, Miles talked about wildlife. Obviously, if you want to see wildlife and those predator prey relationships, Yellowstone is one of the best places in the world to see some of those interactions play out. So, you know, we got wolves, we got grizzly bears, we got cougars, we got bison, elk, bighorn sheep, even wolverines, which I haven't seen. But hopefully fingers crossed I will soon all sorts of wildlife. But it's also this is super, a super special place because of the history. So wherever 10,000 years before Yellowstone became the first National Park, which happened in 1872, it was a place where American Indians lived and hunted and fished and gathered plants and quarried obsidian and use the thermal waters. And even today, there are 27 Tribes with historic and modern connections to the land and resources within the area that we now know as Yellowstone.

Ashton: Yeah, and in addition to Tribal history, Yellowstone is also home to a combined 25 historic sites, landmarks, and districts on the National Register of Historic Places. There are a lot of really neat, historic buildings and landmarks and things like that all throughout the park. So, we have a lot of cool, natural and cultural resources, and that's what brings a lot of people to visit the park. On average, we receive about four and a half million visits every year, and about 95% of that is in a six-month period between May and October. So, a lot of visitation in the summer, not so much in the winter, but I think that's the best time to visit. In my personal opinion.

Jake: I concur. Yeah, winter is pretty awesome.

Ashton: A report showed that tourism, the Yellowstone contributes about 6,000 jobs in our gateway communities. So those are the communities that exist just outside the park at all our entrances and about $600 million to the local economy in 2022. That's a lot.

Jake: That is a lot of money.

Miles: A lot of money and a lot of people. And so, we, of course, have to have all the infrastructure that you need for all that huge amount of people. And because of that, we have tons of stuff in the park. Of course, we have well over 400 miles of roads. We have lots of lodging, buildings, places to eat, bathrooms of horse trails, all sorts of stuff. And our portfolio of all that stuff totals over $4 billion worth of infrastructure.

Jake: Billion with a B?

Miles: Billion. With a B.

Jake: Wow, that's a lot.

Miles: Roads, bridges. Then there's the things you don't even think about, like water and wastewater systems, of course, campgrounds, hotels. Then there's all the employee housing and all the facilities needed for the employees. So, we're basically our own little mini state up here. Since 2020, we have invested over $1.5 billion with a B into improving Yellowstone's infrastructure. For you and also for future generations of visitors. And there's even more projects in the pipeline.

Brett: Yeah, so that's a lot going on. And obviously we can't manage all that alone. So, you know, we rely a lot on tribes, elected officials, nonprofit groups, local communities, states, other federal agencies. They all help us to take care of Yellowstone. And, you know, when you think of Yellowstone National Park, you think of the natural features, the cultural features. But there's also really important things like hotels, restaurants, gas stations, general stores, and our concession partners are all of those. And our nonprofit partner, Yellowstone Forever, offers educational programs and runs the park stores as well, the bookstores that you see at the visitor centers. So, they also support the park through philanthropic dollars that are really important to us.

Ashton: Yeah. So, as you can see, there's no shortage of things to talk about when it comes to Yellowstone. We could go on and on probably all day. There's a lot to talk about and there's a lot of content about all this stuff and more on natural and cultural resources in the park. And you can find a lot of that information on our park’s website, which is nps.gov/YELL.

Jake: Yeah, and, and then, you know, with all of that great information about the natural and cultural resources, we realized that there wasn't really any content around the non-historical human resources of the park. Obviously, we have a ton of history of the people who were here in the past, but not a lot about the people that are here right now who do the work to keep the lights on in the park year-round. And that's when we came up with our idea for our What We Do Wednesdays social media campaign in 2019. And since then, we've been highlighting our employees and what they do through photos and stories on our social media platforms. You know, it's been really well received both internally and externally. Ah you know, we have coworkers all the time, they're like, “Wow, that was cool. I didn't know that so-and-so did that.” And so, we thought, hey, why don't we, you know, try to develop some long-form content and boom, now we've got a podcast. What We Do Podcast is our is our new brainchild.

Miles: Yes. And it's a pretty awesome brainchild, I think. So, with this podcast, we're operating under the assumption that if something is interesting to us, that it will also be interesting to you, our listeners. And that being said, one of our intended audiences is current and future NPS employees too, so we intend to cover some information that may get a bit jargony, like how to get jobs in Yellowstone and, you know, all the things that make Yellowstone work. And if you know anything about government agencies, you know, we love acronyms and special terms.

Jake: TLAs.

Miles: Exactly. TLAs

Jake: “Three Letter Acronyms”

Miles: So, to help you out with all those TLAs and other terms, we've created a web page with a glossary of terms and definitions, and you can find that at: go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast.

Brett: Yeah, I'm probably going to be referencing that sometimes I have. I literally had a meeting yesterday that was a BMA IDT. That was the calendar invite. So, you know, but generally speaking, here are three things that we think that you should know about jobs in the federal government. So, this is kind of the insider's look into getting jobs in the federal government from those of us who have who have done that a few times. And the first thing that you really need to know about is USAJobs.gov. This is the website where all government jobs are posted. So, if you're interested in applying for jobs at Yellowstone or in the National Park Service or in any federal agency, really, you need to get familiar with that website. So, after you listen to this episode, after you hit subscribe, go to USAjobs.gov. Create a profile and check out what jobs are on there because there's there is a lot going on there, especially across not just the National Park Service but the federal government in general. So, I highly recommend that you use the resume builder if you've never applied for government positions before. Resumes are a little bit different than they are in the private sector. They're not the one pager that you often use in the private sector. They're a little bit longer because you have to prove your position and all the skills required for the position. So that's why I recommend that resume builder. It kind of helps get you started when you're having applied for a government job before. And I'd also recommend that you set alerts for saved searches for positions that you find that you're interested in. So, if you listen to an episode and we interviewed someone that is doing a job that you think is really cool, go on USAjobs.gov and maybe set an alert so they'll email you any time that job comes up. We could go a lot more in-depth about writing resumes for government jobs, but that would take way too long here.

Jake: Boring!

Brett: Yeah, we're not we're not going to do that but just know about USAjobs.gov. That's a huge first step.

Ashton: Yeah. And the second thing that we think we should know about jobs in the federal government is there are three main types of positions. So, you'll see seasonal positions, long term positions and permanent positions. So first the seasonal positions, those usually last for a specific amount of time during the year. So, for example, in Yellowstone, we hire seasonal workers for the summer and winter seasons and those can last about five or six months or so.

Jake: I think it's 1039 hours is the max. So, one hour short of six months.

Ashton: And then the second type, those are term positions and those are usually project based. So maybe a park needs some need needs to hire someone to help with a specific type of project going on in that park. They'll hire this person and that and that term position usually lasts for like one year, but it usually will not exceed four years. And then lastly, permanent positions. And those are your typical year-round permanent jobs, which is what all four of us who are on this podcast today have here in Yellowstone.

Brett: We’re very lucky.

Jake: Very lucky, yeah. And the last thing, our pay scales. So, there's four types of pay scales in the government. We have the way the federal wage schedule, the law enforcement officer general schedule, the general schedule, and the executive and senior level. So, wage grade or WG, these are like our trades in our craft and labor employees. And the idea is that, you know, those wages are connected to the wages that are in the same you know, where the park is located. So, if you're getting paid the same amount for the people that are doing the same kind of work in your area. And that's like the people who are in our facility maintenance and operations division. Law enforcement officers obviously, those are our park rangers, the ones that carry the sidearms that are in and they're out there, you know, protecting the visitors and the resources. And then the GS is basically everyone else in Yellowstone, minus one person. And that one person is our superintendent. You know, once you've risen to a certain level in government, you can apply it to the senior executive series. And there's only a handful of parks that even have SES positions. I think it's like Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Everglades and a few other parks. They have SES superintendents, otherwise most of those positions are at regional or national levels, But within the first three each pay scale. So, whether you're wage grade, GS, or LEO, there's 15 grades, so 1-15 and then each grade has ten steps, 1-10. So, for example, you might hear someone say like, I'm a GS 11 for 11, step four, and that means they're on the general schedule, grade 11, step four. And the reason we explain all of this is because all of this information is public knowledge. So, when you apply for a job, you can actually see what you know, what you'll start at and what you can max out to. It's all public information on the office of Personnel Management site or OPM. I don't want to get out of this without using an acronym.

Miles: All right. So, Yellowstone is a big park. It's got a lot of employees and a lot of important issues going on all the time. That's part of the fun of this podcast. Even the people who work here, we don't know everything that's going on. That is definitely true. I feel like I learn about new projects or jobs or things on a regular basis.

Jake: Absolutely

Brett: Yeah. And with 750 employees, I've already met a few coworkers that I didn't even know I had doing this podcast. So, it's been a lot of fun. We hope you enjoy those conversations as much as we have and kind of develop an appreciation for what it takes to keep Yellowstone this huge national park up and running.

Ashton: And, you know, maybe some of our listeners will be our future coworkers. Who knows?

Brett: That would be awesome.

Jake: That would be cool. Anything else, team?

Brett: I don’t think so.

Ashton and Miles: No.

Brett: I think that does it.

Jake: Well, thank you for listening and we hope you enjoy the show!

What do park rangers actually do? And how can you get involved? Tune in as we – Yellowstone park rangers Jake, Brett, Miles, and Ashton – introduce the park's brand-new podcast, "What We Do."

A tip for our listeners: If you want to work for the National Park Service, start by creating an account on USAjobs.gov, building your resume, and searching for open positions within the NPS. Visit go.nps.gov/WhatWeDoPodcast for more info.

Stay tuned for more episodes featuring park employees beginning March 20!

Tags: yellowstone, yellowstone national park, national park service, jobs, careers, park ranger

Prev

• 1
• 2

of 2

Next