Footsteps (U.S. National Park Service)

Episodes

Season 2

September 27, 2025

7. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Bonus Episode - Fort Larned Stories

Transcript

[Music fades in and fades out as the main part of the episode starts]

Kristin Keith: I believe there was it-- the weather was bad; there was snow on the ground. Anyway, they were ordered to go. So, they leave, go guard this wood pile. While they are gone, their stables caught on fire.

George Elmore: But the minute he sat in that saddle, his back went erect, his hands went up, he held the reigns in the true cavalry position. He actually became a young man for just a moment.

Pete Bethke: After the demonstration, and they were going to another station, the teacher and him stopped and he said, "You know, I want to thank you for coming here." And held out his hand and shook it and I got a little teary eyed there.

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. We hope you enjoyed listening to this season where we looked at the stories and purpose of other National Parks in the area. In this episode, we bring the focus back to Fort Larned and the stories it holds. Enjoy this episode as our hosts tell their favorite stories and bring on other Fort Larned staff to hear what stories they enjoy highlighting.

Ben Long: Well, this is it: season two is coming to an end. It was a really fun season, though. I enjoyed it.

Kristin Keith: I did, too. There were certain guests that I have special connections with: My neighbor Judy Readding and Celeste Dixon, a good friend of mine. So, those rank up there with my favorites. But overall, it was-- I learned so much just listening to everyone's experiences.

Ben: I did too. Yeah, that was-- we had so many different stories from so many different perspectives and from Fort Larned to other parks and all that. It was, it was a blast getting to learn, almost zooming out a little bit. Like the first season obviously focused on Fort Larned as a National Park Service site, now we sort of expanded it a little bit, now we're going to focus it back in and talk about some of our favorite Fort Larned stories. Some of them historic, some of them a little more modern. But one of my favorite stories, a historic story, comes to us from Company "C" of the 3rd Infantry, which is the unit we portray here when we're doing living history as soldiers. They were the company that was here the longest; they were here for about 5 years. That's in stark contrast to a lot of the units that were here for weeks or months. Being that we portray Company "C", Company "C" is what we have the most records of, it's what we've done the most research into. And unfortunately, right now a lot of the records that we do still have are court martial records. So, the best records we have are of the worst soldiers, but it makes for some sensational stories. And one story I especially like to tell is of Thomas Jones. So, he was a soldier in Company "C" of the 3rd Infantry and he has two court marshals against him, at least in his time here at Fort Larned, so he was a troublemaker. On May 1st of 1868, Thomas Jones, who at that time appears to be a Private, along with Private Michael Nicholas, assaults 1st Sergeant Roche, likely behind the barracks. Because of how the court marshals worded, it sounds like it's behind the barracks. 1st Sergeant Roche tries to go into the barracks to get help in subduing his two attackers, they continue to assault him there, then they finally get Jones and Nicholas off of Roche, get them arrested. Jones is found guilty of conduct pre-judicial to good order and military discipline. That's sort of like a catch-all sentence or catch-all charge, I should say. It's like, you weren't behaving like a soldier.

Kristin: Right. It covers a lot of ground.

Ben: It does.

Kristin: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. Casts a wide net. But he was sentenced to be confined at hard labor for two months. In that time, he was also to be forfeited $12 of monthly pay. So basically, didn't get any-- had to pay his expenses and then didn't get any money for that two months.

Kristin: What would be considered hard labor?

Ben: Usually hard labor was like emptying privies and things like that.

Kristin: Gotcha.

Ben: Definitely not something you want to do, especially when it's 100° outside. So, I'm not sure when the court martial board happened. Again, this happened May 1st. It takes a while, especially on the frontier, to get court martial boards convened because you have to have a certain number of officers on it, especially if you're-- the higher rank you are, the higher rank the president of the court martial board needs to be.

Kristin: Sure. Right.

Ben: So that was his first charge. Somehow less than a year later, early in 1869, he gets promoted to Corporal. I don't know if it was a new company commander who liked his gusto or whatever, don't know why.

Kristin: Yeah.

Ben: I-- they had to have his records, but--

Kristin: He saw something in him.

Ben: Something, yeah.

Kristin: Yeah.

Ben: Or at that time there was a new 1st Sergeant and so maybe the 1st Sergeant was friends with Jones and decided--

Kristin: Political, yeah.

Ben: Yeah, he should get promoted. Regardless, he's a Corporal. At this time, Corporals are like glorified Privates. They don't have to do extra duty; they do have more of a training role and it's sort of an avenue to get up to Sergeant where you have more responsibilities. So, he apparently was not taking too kindly how another corporal, Corporal Henry Ross, was treating the men under his command. So, it's men within the same company it's still within Company "C", but Corporal-- now Corporal Jones has his men that he's in charge of, and Corporal Ross has the men that he's in charge of. In a full company, there's up to about eight corporals. So, you have quite a few squads of soldiers that are under command of these different corporals. It sounds like Corporal Henry Ross beat up or assaulted Private James McCafferty who was under his command -- seems like that. I don't know if there's any solid evidence of that, but that seems to be what kicks off this issue. So, this is March 4th of 1869, Corporal Thomas Jones confronts Corporal Ross. They have some not so nice words exchanged between the two of them. Corporal Ross goes to leave the squad room, that main-- where all the bunks and everything are. He goes to leave, Jones follows him, Ross asks him, "Are you going to report me to Captain Snyder?", the captain of the company. Jones then places himself in front of the door and forces Ross back. And at that time, other soldiers within the barracks extinguished all the candles. So, this happened at night--

Kristin: Right?

Ben: --when you need candlelight.

Kristin: Sure.

Ben: And there's apparently enough guys that are backing Jones up.

Kristin: Uh-huh.

Ben: No one snitched on who blew the candles out apparently. Because again, Jones is put in front of a court martial board, charged with beginning, inciting, and joining a mutiny by conspiring with others unknown to extinguish the lights and attack Corporal Ross.

Kristin: It was organized somehow.

Ben: It was organized. Yeah, I think he was the brains of the operation, personally. He was found guilty and sentenced to quote "be dishonorably discharged, to forfeit all pay and allowances that are due except just dues to the laundress, to be marked with a letter "M" one and a half inches long on the left hip and confined for 10 years in a state or military prison." End quote. So, a lot harsher punishment than his first offense.

Kristin: Sure.

Ben: And the-- and mutiny was taken very seriously.

Kristin: So was that branding with the "M" was that-- I mean did that happen quite often? It's like the scarlet letter.

Ben: It is. Yeah. So, it's branded on the left hip intentionally. So, when you join the regular army, you get a health inspection, which is a full stripped-down inspection by an army surgeon. And so, if a charge serious enough was made that they didn't want you rejoining the army at any point--

Kristin: Wow.

Ben: --then that was wow supposed to happen.

Kristin: Wow.

Ben: You were supposed to get a "D" for desertion, "M" for mutiny, things like that. From our records, we find it unfortunately happens a lot more with the Black soldiers, like the Buffalo soldiers, but it did happen, as we see, like with Corporal-- yeah, Corporal Jones.

Kristin: When did that practice fall off?

Ben: It was becoming less and less popular in Fort Larned's era. Corporal punishment was also as well. So, you don't have like lashes and things like that being as common or as popular as a punishment. There are definitely things that are-- that would be seen as cruel and unusual today.

Kristin: Sure.

Ben: Like the sweat, box hanging by your thumbs, carrying a log on your shoulder. Thankfully punishments as such are not the same. So, what story do you have for us today?

Kristin: So, my story begins 10 years ago when I first came here to volunteer. There was a Ranger by the name of Ellen Jones and there was a vacancy over in one of the Junior Officers' Quarters of a story that needed to be told. And so, she dressed me out, she took me over there and she said, "And by the way, you know, we tell these stories in first person. So, you become this person who lived here." And I was a little terrified, of course, thinking, I don't have a choice -- she's telling me to do this, this is what I'm going to do. So, I learned the story of Captain Nicholas Nolan and his wife Annie for that purpose, just to be knowledgeable enough in 24 hours to be able to tell their story. But the more I dug and studied who they were, I absolutely fell in love with them and their story. And it's kind of become like they're my extended family when I'm in their home portraying Annie, I really feel at home. So, Nicholas Nolan immigrated to this country when he was 17. He was by himself; he did not travel with his family -- this was in the late 1850s, I think 1857. So, he gets off the boat: "What am I going to do?" He's from Ireland, so he's an Irish immigrant. And like many Irish immigrants, he felt like his best option to make some money for a job was to join the military, so that's what he did. So, he's a young private in the army. A couple years pass, civil war breaks out. Um during that war, he worked his way up from rank of Private to Captain. So he really proved himself, which is just the story of his life. I mean, he was not from a wealthy family, he did not attend West Point, you know, he just-- skill alone worked his way through the ranks. He was wounded several times during the war, kept coming back. He was even taken as prisoner for a brief time, but he survived all that. And in the middle of all of that chaos, he found some time to fall in love also. So he and Annie were married, the year escapes me, but her family had been-- also Irish, had been in the country longer than Nicholas had been here. And her father worked in Washington DC., so I assume that's where they met. After the war, you know, many men decided they'd had enough of the military, the budget was decreased significantly, but Nicholas decided to stay in, and he was given commission as Captain of the 10th Cavalry, which was a newly formed regiment of Buffalo Soldiers born from the Civil War. I feel like a lot of white officers would have been like, "No, thank you." at that time in our history. But because he's Irish and at that time Irish immigrants were not popular, that's one of the reasons they would join the military is to earn some respect, I'm guessing, and it was just a good career for them. But he didn't hesitate, he took that commission, I think, because he had a brief understanding of, you know, some of the challenges that Black soldiers were facing at that time. So, he and Annie came with Company "A" of the 10th Cav here in 1867. He actually served as commanding officer at Fort Larned, I think, for about two months. He must just been the highest-ranking officer at the time, not quite sure, but they were here for two years, faced a lot of challenges. The main challenge here at Fort Larned was the burning of the stables. So, he had some men who had been at the Sutler Store playing some pool or cards and they got into an altercation with a couple of white soldiers there over who was going to use the pool table next and that was a heated argument which then followed them back here to Fort Larned. The white soldiers made it aware that Black soldiers had been causing some trouble. As their punishment, Nolan was ordered to take his men and guard a wood pile. I believe there was it-- the weather was bad; there was snow on the ground. Anyway, they were ordered to go-- so, they leave, go guard this wood pile. While they are gone, their stables caught on fire. Of course, nobody knew at the time how that could possibly have happened. But because Nolan had not left someone behind to take care of the stables, even though he'd been ordered to take his men and go guard the wood pile, he was court martialed for that. I think there were close to $6,000 in loss that then he ended up having to repay from his salary, so he went for like 5 years without earning any pay. They left shortly after that incident, so that would have been in 1869, he and Annie and Company "A" left. He was eventually exonerated from that, but it was years and years later. Unfortunately, Nicholas and Annie have more sorrow in their future after they left Fort Larned. Annie contracted tuberculosis and died, at that point they had two kids, I believe she was 29 when she died. And shortly after her death, they were down in Texas, he had been ordered to take his men and search for some Native American horse thieves, I believe. To make a long story short, he was seriously grieving Annie's loss and was not in his right mind, didn't prepare his men for that expedition, they got lost in the desert for three or four days. Some men died, horses died, it was horrible.

Ben: I believe it's called the death march.

Kristin: Yes. I mean, you you'll have to read all about it, because that I mean is its own story. But as a woman, one of the things that sticks out to me in that story was, you know, he had been such an amazing soldier and leader up to that point, it just speaks to me about how much he really did love his partner and his wife because he was not mentally well during that period in his life. He was he was just grieving. But you know, you're a soldier, you don't get 6 months off to grieve a loss. You know, you bury your wife and you move on. So, they just have such a unique story. They're immigrants, they have nothing, they work their way up, earn everything that they ever had. It's just a great story. And he honestly was the right man for the job that he was given. He understood what the Black soldiers were facing, he stuck up for them, he treated them well. he became close with them, he helped train the first black officer, you know, had them in his home, and it it's just-- he was such a good man, and I just love their story. And I'm always learning, you know, new things about them. So--

Ben: Yeah.

Kristin: Yeah, he was a great guy. I love their story. One side note is he did remarry shortly after Annie died also to a woman named Annie.

Ben: He had a type!

Kristin: You can read whatever you want to into that. I think it was more marriage of convenience because he needed someone to look after his two kids because they did not have children. Yeah, fascinating story.

Ben: Very fascinating. Well, thank you.

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Ben: Our next story comes to us from Chief Ranger George Elmore, obviously the chief ranger here and Fort Larned expert. What story do you have for us today?

George: Well, as you know, I've worked here a long time, and there's a lot of stories so, you know, I could go on and on and on and on and on about different stories. But one that still rings pretty strong in my mind is back in 2019 got a call from Smithsonian Institution and they wanted to know when we send them the bison. And it's like, what do you mean? We don't have a buffalo herd here, we don't have any bison. "Oh, yeah, you do, you sent us one." "No, we don't." We got into this little game for a while. So, I decided to change it and say, "Okay, who sent you the bison from here? Do you have any idea?" "Well, yeah, it's labeled W.H. Forwood." Like, really? He was the post surgeon here in 1867-68. And I think that probably part of the great herds if he sent you a bison and she was kind of amazed that it was that long ago. But they've had it created up at the Smithsonian and the bones are in different cases. And so, the obvious next question is, "What else do you have from Fort Larned?" And she said, "Well, I'll look it up. We have a coyote skull." "Okay, who sent you the coyote skull?" It was another one of the Post Surgeons later on that sent the coyote skull. And so, you never want to think that you have all the knowledge you're possibly going to have because things keep coming up. You know, there's always something new that-- it's kind of exciting. A person, Dr. Doug Scott, who was-- did his archeological work out here at the fort, is very well known in the archaeological community, and we've gotten to be friends. So, I called Doug and said, "Do you have any contacts at Smithsonian that could get us a photograph of this skeleton of the bison or whatever they've got?" "Oh yeah, sure. I know this person in charge of the mammals in the exhibit there at the Smithsonian" SI as he called it, Smithsonian Institution. "I'll get a hold of her." And then within about a week, we hear from them, and they sent us a picture of the skull of the bison collected by William Forwood, which was pretty neat. So, then we had them send us a picture of the coyote skull, got that, too. But I was hoping we could get the buffalo skull, we were planning new exhibits at the time, to put on exhibit. It'd make a heck of a-- and even get the label that Forwood had put on the crate when he sent it would be kind of neat. But no, they're gonna keep it there.

Ben: Now, if I'm not mistaken, Forwood went on later in his career to become Surgeon General--

George: Surgeon General, right, right, yeah. He was actually here twice. He was here single, and he was known as kind of a party person, liked to play cards and have the other officers over his quarters. When he came back the second time, he was married and had his wife with him. So he was--

Ben: Was he still a party person then?

George: Yeah, he liked to party. Yeah. No, he was a great surgeon, too, very well respected in his profession.

Ben: Why do you think, of course, we can only speculate really, but why do you think Forwood sent that back east?

George: Well, it's not uncommon then. They don't have specimens, they were developing collections, and so, there was-- there is in the military records an account of the largest buffalo that anybody had ever seen getting drug out to the fort. And that's when Surgeon Forwood was here. And in my mind, I'd like to put the two and two together. That this was a unique specimen and so he rendered it to bones and sent the bones. How he rendered it to bones, I have no idea unless they boiled it or whatever.

Ben: Okay.

George: To get the bones.

Ben: So it was it wasn't a skull that he just picked up and sent. It was--

George: Right.

Ben: It was a specimen that he--

George: Yeah. It's a full buffalo skeleton that they received.

Ben: Okay.

George: Now it's not today. Today apparently, they have a collection of bison skulls, and the skull is in that collection, and so it's separate from the body bones. But they apparently-- it was an entire specimen that he sent them. Which is not uncommon, I mean, back then, if they found anything unusual, they considered it kind of scientific and maybe worthy of being shown. We have a Fort Larned officer who actually collected a lot of Indian stuff that went down into a museum in Florida. His family donated it, too.

Ben: Oh, cool.

George: But it'd be cool if we had that here, too.

Ben: Yeah.

George: There were Indian things that he collected while he was here. But anyway, those are the stories that I think kind of ring out in your mind. There's one that I really kind of can't forget with a visitor. He was quite elderly, came in walking a cane, his family's with him, and I was-- just happened to be doing Cavalry that weekend. We used to do a lot of that where we'd have an interp-- horse that's all decked out in Cavalry gear and explain how they saddled and did the whole thing. Anyway, this guy looked at the horse and he said, "Well, I was in the horse cavalry." It's like, "Really?" Well, you know, they were disbanded just prior to World War II. And he said, "Yeah, I had to give away the horse," but he said, "I was in the horse Cav for a while. But I haven't been on a horse since those days, I was in the horse cavalry." And I'm thinking, "Okay." And we visited for a while longer and pretty soon he said, "Can I get on your horse?" And his family saw-- "Grandpa, no, you can't. You can't get on the horse. You know, it'll be-- it's too dangerous for you to get on the horse." I looked at him and he looked at me and I said, "Sure." So, helped him get on the horse, but the minute he sat in that saddle, his back went erect, his hands went up, he held the reigns in the true cavalry position. He actually became a young man for just a moment. His family started just snapping photographs of him like crazy like, "Wow, grandpa really?" And he was-- talked, you know, a little bit on while he was on the horse about his days in the cavalry and then said, "Well, maybe I better get down." So, helped him get down. He got his cane, became an old man again. But for just a couple minutes, he remembered his youth.

Ben: What was drilled into him just never fully left.

George: Never went away. He knew exactly how to sit the horse as a Cavalry, how to hold his hands in the Cavalry-- I mean, everything was just perfect.

Ben: That's cool.

George: Yeah.

Ben: That's really cool. And it was kind of cool for the family, too, I think, to get to see their grandfather as he would have been as a young man.

Ben: Yeah.

George: In the horse Cav before World War II.

Ben: That's cool. Now before this you had told me that he had told you a couple little things that he learned while he was in horse Cav?

George: Yeah, he had little stories he went on about. One of them was they were I don't not allowed these are McClellan saddles, they're kind of rough to sit on and ride for any length of time. So, he would call it blousing the saddle, they would take the saddle blanket and kind of bulge it up underneath the saddle, but it still looks good from the distance or riding close by. And when there's no officers around and they're actually riding out on campaign, they would pull the blanket up and kind of spread it over the saddle and ride on that as a little bit of a pad.

Ben: Yeah, because McClellan saddles, from what I hear, I haven't experienced them, but from what I hear, are not the most comfortable.

George: They're designed for the horse, not the rider, yeah. And there really is no change from the Civil War McClellan into the World War II, just about the start of World War II any way, the only real difference is going from rawhide to leather. They went first to the rawhide would split and crack and the leather didn't so it lasted longer. They went from black leather to brown leather and by 1904 that model which he would have been riding in was brown leather but the side skirts kind of come and go but everything else was pretty much the same as a Civil War saddle.

Ben: Yeah, Army doesn't like to change.

George: No, very reluctant to change.

Ben: Well, thanks for coming on and telling the stories and giving us a little more insight into the history of the fort and history of visitors here.

George: You want me to tell stories about staff that were here and were--?

Ben: We could go on all day, I'm sure.

George: Well, maybe a little about you. No. Well, good luck, Ben.

Ben: Thanks.

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Phil Grossardt: Stock up on your own Fort Larned merch today by visiting our bookstore and gift shop located in our Visitor Center and managed by Western National Parks. Our bookstore and gift shop have a wide selection of Fort Larned souvenirs and books dealing with our story. New items are being added all the time, so stop by, even if you've been here before. A portion of the sales in our bookstore come right back to Fort Larned National Historic Site to support our programs and make them even better for you, our visitors. If you're unable to visit in person, a limited selection of our store's items can be found by searching Fort Larned on store.wnpa.org.

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Ben: All right, up next, we have a story coming to us from Mike, our Museum Tech, who we heard from last season. How we doing today, Mike?

Mike Seymour: I'm doing fine. How about you?

Ben: Doing good. What story do you have for us today?

Mike: Well, a long time ago, I was assigned a project on one of our soldiers in the cemetery named Private Franklin Witson. And I gave a program on it and I just kind of enjoyed the program, unfortunately he was killed but so many of our soldiers that are in this cemetery were-- died from disease or accidents of some kind. But this guy actually had you could mark his off as combat wounds. So, it was just kind of interesting to do a little background on him and how he-- actually he didn't tell the story, he couldn't. But that-- there was a survivor, his partner that-- a fellow soldier that went with them to down around Medicine Lodge. Well, you want me to kind of just elaborate on the--

Ben: Yeah. What's his story?

Mike: So what happens is a little background first: Whitson enlisted in the US Army February 18th, 1867, at Fort Wayne, Indiana. He passed through Jefferson barracks near St. Louis. On his way to his duty station, he found out at Jefferson barracks that he would be assigned to Company "C" 3rd infantry stationed at Fort Larned, Kansas. After arriving, Whitson was put to duty, company duty, which is a fancy word for just soldierly things to do. But basically, he said he performed, his duties not only at Fort Larned, but also at Fort Dodge, Hays, and Zarah. I assume this may be dispatches, taking dispatches to this-- to Hays and to Dodge, but as far as Zarah goes, that was a satellite fort to Fort Larned. And so more than likely he was stationed over there for 30 some days was usually the normal rotation. But one day, Private Whitson was assigned to Quartermaster duty, and the Quartermaster assigned him and a Private Isaac Lakin, 5th Infantry, to travel to Mule Creek of all places to look for lost mules. I mean, why would you not go to Mule Creek to find lost mules?

Kristin: Oh, the irony!

Mike: So anyway, he and Private Lakin took off and arrived, Mule Creek was basically near Medicine Lodge. They took off and were there within a day. They started looking for the mules, could not find them, set up camp, thinking that this was going to be a long, drawn-out affair. But after arriving at Mule Creek, some Kiowas came into the camp and basically demand-- by Lakin who survived this again, the Indians basically demanded food. And I believe what was distributed to them was coffee and sugar. But no sooner had the Indians left than a pair of buffalo hunters came into their camp and they were more of agreeable you know company, so they decided to stay for a little while and chat and break bread so to speak with the two soldiers. And later on that evening some more Kiowas came back and demanded food and this was given. The next day the group that was there first on the previous day came back and demanded food. So apparently Whitson and Lakin were deciding these guys are trying to bleed us dry and so they hesitated a little bit and without any hesitation on the Indians part they drew their guns and shot. According to Lakin, Whitson was hit in the breast and died instantly. The Indians fired at Lakin and also one of the buffalo hunters. They missed him but hit one of the buffalo hunters, so he was killed. The other buffalo hunter and Lakin darted into the tall grass and hid. The Indians didn't seem to want to spend too much time trying to find them. But the pair ended up at a ranch not too far away where they spent the night and then they came back the next day, found the two bodies and they were taken to the ranch and interred there and both bodies stayed there. I really don't know what happened to the buffalo hunter, but the army came down to the ranch and disinterred Whitson and brought him to Fort Larned. And he was placed in or buried-- reinterred in the cemetery at Larned and remained there until 1888 about 10 years after the fort closes when a quartermaster detail came from Fort Leavenworth and reinterred or dug up all the bodies and reburied them at Fort Leavenworth. We don't know which grave is his at Fort Leavenworth because they-- the markers on all the graves were burned off after the-- through a =prairie fire were all burnt, and they couldn't you know tell who was who. But the Quartermaster had very good records of who was you know buried there in the cemetery. So, you know, I kind of feel sorry for the guy and if I can help bring him back to a little bit of notoriety, I like to do so.

Ben: Now is that Private Lakin, correct? The survivor. Was he the one who he came back to the fort and then was commanded to go back and retrieve Whitson or was that another person?

Mike: It doesn't say. I don't know any further knowledge as far as who actually went, but I know they took a detail. I would obviously think that Lakin went back with him to show him-- show them where the camp was, let alone the burial site. But I have no, you know, proof of anything as far as how that all transpired.

Kristin: Do you know what the percentage of or approximately the percentage of soldiers that were killed by some kind of wound similar to that as opposed to an illness? Do you know?

Mike: Well, you can almost go to the records of any post and sure they'll vary just a little bit, but disease is always at the top. Always at the top. And next comes accidents. I cut my leg chopping wood, I can't stop the bleeding, and I died. And combat wounds are always on the very bottom. So, if you had to say 80% you know disease, 10% or 15% accidents and 10 or 5% combat wounds. That's, you know, in most research that I've done, that's usually the way I can confident-- say confident-- in most confidently that disease tops the three.

Ben: Yeah, and that's almost even with when you're talking like Civil War casualties, a lot of those many-- while, you do have a higher percentage of combat wounds in that--

Mike: Sure.

Ben: You do have a very high percentage of disease because you have a lot of people in a very small area, right? Poor food, poor water.

Mike: That's right. And they're out in the elements. When I was referring to you know that the percentages I gave, I'm talking about garrison life. You know, if you're in garrison, you're still with a lot of people that can contract, you know, let's say cholera. I mean, had they only known to boil a water, there would have there would have been no cholera, but it's just, you know, it's like you want to bang your head against the wall like just boil a water, you know.

Ben: Cool. Well, thank you for sharing that story with us.

Phil Grossardt: As always Fort Larned National Historic Site is open 7 days a week from 8:30 a.m. until 4:30 p.m. and is just 6 miles west of Larned, so stop by for a visit. If you're interested in learning how you can help Fort Larned National Historic Site, give us a call at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov and ask us about volunteer opportunities.

Ben: Our last story comes from Pete Bethke, one of the Park Rangers here and the blacksmith on site. How are we doing today?

Pete Bethke Oh, not too bad.

Ben: Wonderful. What story do you have for us today?

Pete: Well, over the years, I've got a lot of them, but I think the one that stands out the most is I did a offsite demonstration, oh gosh, I think about 15 years ago in Hutchinson at the Reno County Historical Museum. And it was a school function. They had living history people there doing demonstrations and kids from around the area would come in and we had different stations and this one group I was doing the demonstration and I dropped something on the ground and I've always been in the habit of saying "Just call me klutz" and little gal in the front row goes "Hey, klutz." And then I got a one on the other side of the spectrum, another group. And this one little guy, he was sitting off away from the other kids. And I think it was the teacher that was sitting with him, and he didn't say anything to anybody. He just sat there and no emotion at all. After the demonstration and they they're going to another station, the teacher and him stopped and he said, "You know, I want to thank you for coming here" and held out his hand and shook it and got a little teary eyed there.

Ben: How old do you think he was?

Pete: I think they were third graders if I remember right.

Ben: So, pretty young. Wow. Now I know you kind of steal the show no matter where you go, whether you're here at the fort or doing demonstrations off-site. Do you tend to find that it's kids or adults that tend to have their attention captured the most?

Pete: I think it's about even across the board. Even people that are familiar with it or grew up around it, hadn't seen it for a long time, they're just tickled to see somebody still at it.

Ben: Yeah. I can remember growing up, we went to some historic sites that had blacksmiths and all that and they were always the fun thing to watch.

Pete: Mhm.

Ben: Now, one thing here, I know you get a lot of questions of if the blacksmiths here made horseshoes or nails or things like that, which is some of what I've seen other blacksmiths make, especially like 18th century blacksmiths talking about making nails, and of course, that's an easy quick thing to make for a demonstration. But what do you often say to visitors who ask those kind of questions?

Pete: Oh, usually like with nails, they were made as early as 1790 by machines in England. Then 1800s that technology came across the ocean and was done on the east coast. Horseshoes were machine made 1834 in Troy, New York by Henry Burton, came up with a machine process. And so, by Fort Larned's time period in the 1860s, the Army was buying the shoes in bulk pre-made, training the enlisted men how to coal shoes. So, each cavalry unit had their own company farrier.

Ben: And that's what's I guess interesting in looking at the unit structure of the cavalry units is they have their own farrier. And I guess you just hope that guy doesn't desert.

Pete: Yeah.

Ben: Well, thanks for coming on and sharing those fun visitor stories. I know all the visitors that come and see you have a blast. So, if you haven't seen Pete at work, definitely come on out, visit the fort when he's in the shop and guaranteed to have a blast.

Pete: Yeah. Hope to see you.

Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes. Share Footsteps with your friends and family and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and X. And as always, enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website, ww.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time, this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast.

Hosts: Ben Long and Kristin Keith Guests: George Elmore, Mike Seymour, and Pete Bethke The last episode of Season 2 of Footsteps is here and is totally different than all the other episodes this season. In this episode, we sit down and hear from our hosts as well as some other staff members about some of their favorite stories as they relate to Fort Larned.

August 2, 2025

6. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Episode 5 - Heather Brown

Transcript

[Music fades in]

Heather Brown: I started out at Fort Scott National Historic Site as a volunteer in 1988, many years ago. I kind of like talk about it like it's a marriage, you know, and it's a good marriage really. You know, there's ups and downs, but for the most part, they're a great organization to have a partnership with. Exactly what the last part of the Organic Act says, you know, leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment for future generations. And that's why we do what we do.

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Heather Brown, the Chief of Interpretation at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve, another National Park Service site right here in Kansas.

Ben Long: So, what is your official title?

Heather: I am the well, Chief of Interpretation or Visitor-- and Visitor Services or Supervisory Park Ranger, it just depends on which you want to state, but Chief of Interpretation.

Ben: Okay.

Heather: and Visitor Services--

Ben: To put it simply.

Heather: Yeah. A mouth word there.

Ben: And how long have you been there at Tallgrass?

Heather: I've been here at the park here at Tallgrass for 23 years. Got here in 2002 and been with the park service 31 years. So, it's been great.

Ben: Nice, so you've spent most of your time there at Tallgrass.

Heather: Uh-huh, sure have, yeah.

Ben: What other parks have you worked at?

Heather: Well, I started out at Fort Scott National Historic Site as a volunteer in 1988, many years ago. I started working there as a cooperating association person, basically Western National Parks Association, I was a clerk. And then got married there and became a seasonal park ranger for I think five years from '90 well no, actually '92-- summers '92 to '95 and then I left. There was a hiring freeze, so, I had to apply for other agencies to get permanent status. So, I went to Fort Leavenworth and worked for the Department of Defense for about 9, 10 months. Got my permanent status and then from there I applied several places and one of them was including the Washington DC, all the memorials and monuments on the Mall and they picked me up. I didn't have any idea of going to DC, but my husband and I we went to Washington DC for a year and that was quite a great experience. You know I'm glad I was younger at the time, but there's a lot of people. I never could get used to so many people even at midnight, so many people all the time. So did that for a year and then I was fortunate enough to work for Jefferson National Expansion Memorial over at St. Louis. Were there almost six years and then I was fortunate enough to be back to Kansas which is home for me and be here at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve. So, it's been a good career, good life. Love it.

Ben: Yeah, I was talking with another ranger who had more recently worked on the National Mall and he-- one of his duties was going out and getting numbers just getting like a general number with one of those clickers and he said he just like constantly clicked for like 15 minutes.

Heather: Oh yeah.

Ben: Cuz it's just-- there's just so many people.

Heather: It is.

Ben: But it is it is a cool place. I've been there a couple times and it's-- there's some cool memorials.

Heather: There's a lot up there. I worked the night shift when I was back there., so, went in at 3:00 and got off at midnight and so as the traffic was leaving DC, I was coming in. So, the night-- the day shift though, they would have to leave two hours early in the morning just to get to work. And so, I was very fortunate that I didn't have to experience that.

Ben: Yeah.

Heather: That was-- I don't know that I could have done that.

Ben: Yeah, that's-- and anytime that I've gone there too, it just your feet are tired from walking every which way.

Heather: Yes, yeah. But it was beautiful at night, you know. And the vistiors were different at night, too. It seemed like they were, they're really the more experienced, you know, what there was to see and do and not just, you know, clicking something off of their check box, which is what the day shift seems like that they had to deal with a lot. So, you had a chance to do more programs and things at night and really visit with visitors and really help connect them to the park. So, I was I was thankful that I got to work the night shift.

Ben: That's cool.

Kristin: You said that you started your career as a volunteer. Do you work with a lot of volunteers where you are now?

Heather: I do. So, I'm in charge of the volunteer program here at the park and I just love our volunteers. We couldn't do, as you know, you can't do nearly everything at all without volunteers. There's just is not enough people power and just the energy that they bring to the table, they keep me going. I love my volunteers. So, we couldn't do our education programs, we have an outreach program for Title 1s it's the Open OutDoor for Kids and it was basically me and another volunteer this spring, That's it, you know, and we brought in kids and yeah, if it hadn't been for the volunteers, couldn't do it.

Kristin: Yep, Ben and I know what that's like with kids.

Ben: Kristin usually helps us out with most of our most if not all of our school programs. Most of our education here is bringing the kids here and we do the Open OutDoors for Kids grant too. And we-- the way we utilize it is helping reimburse some of the travel which helps a lot of these schools be able to see these different areas. They wouldn't be able to do that if it wasn't for that grant money, which is awesome.

Heather: Absolutely, yeah. We have kids basically just an hour away in Topeka and Wichita and we've had groups that some of the kids had-- it's crazy to think about this, but they'd never been off pavement. They'd never even, you know, been to a city park and it's just like they were almost stepping out onto Mars, you know, and to see such a wide open space and the grasses and it was as much of an experience for the kids as it was for us to see how they were responding to the environment, you know, until you really see that. They were just like, "Wow," just like they were stepping out into a totally different dimension. I'd never experienced that before that. So, it was it's a great program as you well know.

Ben: Yeah. Now mentioning that you're an hour away from Topeka and Wichita, what is the annual visitation there at Tallgrass?

Heather: We roughly-- between 30 and 35,000 and so believe it or not COVID had a good impact for us because you know we were all supposed to be social distancing, and you know being cooped up inside that's just hard to-- it's hard to do. And so, there's 11,000 acres for people to social distance out here. And so, they went out against orders, you know, and then they would be coming from all over. Whether they were passing through Kansas or they were here stationed, you know, or at the schools at Emporia State or whatever, they would come out and go hiking. And then when they found that we were here, that spread and that word of mouth really helped. So, weekends we'll see people on our main-- one of our main trails, it almost looks like a highway, but instead of, you know, cars, it's people. And of course, once we reintroduced the bison herd in '09, of course, people want to see the bison, want to see the bison. So, a lot of things for people to see. And but yeah, roughly between 30 and 35,000 a year come here.

Ben: That's awesome. Yeah. I didn't realize that the bison were reintroduced not that long ago.

Heather: Not too long ago, yes, yeah. We started out with 13 head from Wind Cave National Park in '09 and they basically were the most genetically pure bison available. And we still actually gain animals from Wind Cave because of the genetics, you know, 99% bison genetics. And so, but we of course let nature take its course, too, and so, we every fall we have a roundup. And so, we'll roughly take off between 20 and 25 head to make room for the next season's babies that come in. And we will either-- this also managed by the nature conservancy. So, we will either send them to zoos or other national conservation areas or even up for sale too. The last few years they've actually gone up for sale, some of the tribes have purchased them for food. So, there's just a different smattering of things that we do with the animals. But again, you know, it's-- we roughly try to keep about a hundred head here on the preserve and there's two pastures that we have specifically set aside for the bison and everything else is mostly-- is cattle grazing too. So, but yeah, fairly recently really in '09.

Kristin: What kind of feedback have you gotten from visitors about the bison and how has it impacted a visitor's experience do you think?

Heather: Well, you know, for visitors, they, like I said, we-- they love to see the bison. They love to come out and hike and see the bison in their natural state. And as you well know, it's really, we give them a safety message each time, and we have signs posted and we just want to make sure that people are safe because they're hiking right through the pasture, the bison pasture. And you, you know, Yellowstone, they have even less room visitor-wise. They're just right there with the bison. And so here, they have a little bit more area to kind of maybe get away from the bison, but people still sometimes they don't make wise choices. So far, we haven't had an incident, but I'm just oh so fearful that one of these days it's going to-- we've had some close calls, but no one ever has been tagged yet. But you know there's-- and probably subtle things too with the bison as far as like the prairie itself. I did ask you know our natural resource folks and they were saying that probably in small ways, it's impacted you know things like hair being used by other animals such as like for birds, nesting birds having-- because they do die sometimes the bison do die. So, you'll have fresh manure or the dead animals that are here all year long versus cattle that are only here for basically 90 days. And they also, the bison create grazing lawns, and they also have you know the wallows that they are also creating. So, you'll have basically some areas that are short grass in among the tall grasses because they're almost they're making like grazing lawns. And then there's differences in maybe the prairie vegetation because the cattle prefer more of the plants whereas the bison prefer more of the grasses actually. So, there will be a little bit of difference in the vegetation of the two-- of the pastures. So, we have, you know, Windmill Pasture is mainly the bison pasture and then we have the big pastures to the north which is 4,000 acres and then two pastures to the south of the Windmill Pasture. So those are grazed by cattle and so you'll see a little bit of difference in mainly the color and just the at the grasses and the plant makeup of the two. So, in probably small ways, but definitely for the visitor experience, it's made a big difference cuz people they want to see the bison. Our bookstore, anything that has bison on it, it sells, you know, it's amazing. But they-- people love to see the bison.

Ben: I mean, I can't blame them. It's one of my favorite animals.

Heather: And they're out here in the wintertime, too, cuz they're-- you know, the bison are here year-round. And so, seeing the animal in the natural state in the wintertime and seeing them use their head to move the snow apart, even though we don't have a lot of snow typically, but they'll move it aside to get to the grasses. And so, we do also supplement the bison too because we will give them range cubes. And we do also, if need be, we'll give them big bales because we want to make sure that they're they stay healthy. You know, we have an invested interest in the animals, too. So, it's important to preserve them.

Ben: No, and you mentioned a little while back that you have that partnership with the Nature Conservancy. What's the dynamic of that like? Because it's a very unique situation working hand in hand like that. So, what-- yeah, tell us a little bit about that.

Heather: Sure. I kind of like talk about it like it's a marriage, you know, and it's a good marriage really. You know, there's ups and downs, but for the most part, they're a great organization to have a partnership with. You know, they were not our first partner. The first partner was the National Park Trust, and we actually still partner with them, especially on education programs. They're the ones who take the funding for the OOK program and manage all of that for us. But the Nature Conservancy, they've been um our partner with us since 2005. And so, we have a general agreement with them, and it has kind of ebbed and flowed and changed different dynamics through the years, but they can sometimes move a lot faster as you know than how the Park Service, how the government works. And there's just-- there's a lot that you could actually talk about when it comes to the partnership with them. But they have great people. We work really well together. Sometimes they can purchase things that would take us forever to purchase. We can utilize each other's equipment, we've went through that different gamut, too. Again, working with the neighbors and the community, we all work really well together. They've made really good strides in helping with the neighbors burn, doing prescribed fire because we have to do that to keep the prairie a healthy prairie. So, yeah, just being those front people as well as the Park Service. Just the human element alone with the partnership is really good. Sometimes I know that staffing coming in, because this is a partnership park and so if you haven't worked in a partnership park, let's just say a superintendent comes in-- and that has never worked in a partnership park, sometimes it's a little bit hard to kind of wrap your head around because you know you don't have 100% control over the entire 11,000 acres. It is a partnership park. Only 34 acres of 11,000 is federally owned. And so, the rest of it is owned by the Nature Conservancy. And that was very important for us to even become a part of the Park Service actually because in the very early days there was a lot of mistrust and-- from our local communities, because the idea of a National Park Preservation for prairie was 100,000 acres. Well, this ranch, you know, is 11-- was 11,000 acres. And so, if you're a neighbor, you're going to do the math and say, well, the government's going to come in and they're going to take my land through eminent domain, you know. And that did happen uh to the north up towards Tuttle Creek and Manhattan and, you know, years before, people don't forget that. And so, our legislation was key to making sure that our neighbors had a voice at the table that everybody could come together because everybody loves the prairie, loves what we're doing, loves this area. And so, there was a common ground there, the prairie was the common ground. And our legislation actually states that no more than 180 acres of this preserve will ever be federally owned. It will always-- also the local taxes will be paid on the property because that's another big element in our community because government is tax exempt. And so, if the entire 11,000 acres was federal, then all of those property taxes would be gone, and our local economy needs those property taxes. So those two big things, assuring our neighbors that we're not going to come for your land, that was huge, and also the property taxes. So those two things alone in our enabling legislation helped a lot of those fears go to rest and then also working with our community, being a good neighbor, you know, doing what you say, you know, is huge because if you lose that trust, you never-- you can't get it back that easy. And so having our partners work together with the community as well, I say, you know, it's just been really a good partnership working together. And it was also with the National Park Trust, too. So we've been very fortunate to have a good partnership all along the way, but I don't know if that answers your question or not.

Kristin: Yeah. What are what are some of the other challenges or issues that come up with your preservation work? You know, you've talked about the trust of the surrounding community. What are some of the other challenges that you face?

Heather: Funding is for sure one of those things and people power. You know, having enough people to do what you need to do. Those are probably the biggest challenges too. You know, I thought about this too, the whole Organic Act, you know, preserving and pre--, you know, preserving an area for future generations, that's key. And it-- both for natural and cultural as well. Preserving the prairie is kind of unpredictable. You know, you can't just put a bubble over the entire 11,000 acres and lock it down, you know, whereas you really kind of you can somewhat with the cultural part of it. But for the prairie it's constantly-- you're always worried about invasives coming in you know because and again having enough people to manage that. Let's just say I'll show you an example like Sericea Lespedeza, that's one of those invasive prairie species that can come in and just obliterate your prairie if you're not careful. Old world blue stem is another one. And so, we are constantly using both prescribed fire but also, we have to sometimes just chemical treat as well. But you've got, you know, it's carried in by deer and we-- you can't contain the deer. They come in, it's on their fur, on their hooves, whatever, and they spread the seeds around. And so we have constantly people going out to do research and we're trying to make sure that everybody knows like for example what old world blue stem looks like and what Serecea looks like because once you know, if you're out and about and you see that it's really important to GPS it make sure that the natural resource folks know where you found that. Because we do keep track of all of those areas, and I can tell you that it has grown a little bit over the years and it's just because there's-- it's kind of hard to contain mother nature. Even as such as like the Topeka Shiner, you know, it's a threatened and endangered little minnow. We have the trails out here; there's 40 miles of hiking trails. And so, on our bus tour road, we bring in gravel, but it has to be from an area that we know does not have invasive species just like the two that I told you about. Because everything has an impact on the environment. If you bring in like gravel that has a bunch of invasives and it's washed down and it spreads and it grows, then you have just obliterated everything that you're trying to preserve and protect. So, it's just, you know, 11,000 acres is hard to contain as far as like preservation and conserve, but we keep going, we keep trying and just do the best we can and budgets and people. Yeah, it's tough to preserve it.

Phil Grossardt: All too soon, we’re a part of history. Help preserve our past, today. The Fort Larned Old Guard is a non-profit organization designated to benefit programs and operations at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Over the years, The Fort Larned Old Guard has bought artifacts with direct provenance to Fort Larned, commissioned paintings dealing with Fort Larned’s story, and much more. If you enjoy what we do at Fort Larned, please consider donating to The Fort Larned Old Guard or becoming a member. Visit www.ftlarnedoldguard.com for more details on donating and membership. What's a better way to close out the summer but by experiencing history for yourself? Like our Memorial Day weekend event, our Labor Day weekend event brings this frontier post to life with reenactors and living historians and offers you a fun way to learn about the past. Come for the sights, sounds, and smells of a frontier post and stay for the programs and demonstrations this Labor Day weekend, August 30th through September 1st. Programs and demonstrations will be happening Saturday through Monday. So come for one day or come for them all. We hope to see you there.

Ben: Speaking of preservation, though you're known for the nature there at Tallgrass, you also have historic structures there too. If you would tell us a little bit about what historic structures are there and what challenges you face with preserving those too.

Heather: Yeah, there's a lot that you could actually talk about there too because you know the cultural element has been here you know tens-- 10,000 years. So, you have the indigenous tribes, you have the ranching legacy. And so, our two big themes, we have five themes total, but the two biggest of course are the tall grass, and then you also have the ranching legacy and indigenous people. So, we have the historic ranch buildings, which you know, they're quite impressive. A historic ranch that was began in 1878, Mr. Jones, he was basically here to build a cattle feeding station. They were shipping their Colorado cattle on the railroad out here to the Flint Hills because at this time it was beginning to be well known that the grasses are extremely nutritious because the cattle when they were coming up from Texas, they were actually gaining weight when they made it to the Flint Hills. So that idea spread and that's what Mr. Jones and these brothers, they were big- time cattle ranchers, and by the time they made it here, they were towards the end of their career. So, they were only here on the property less than 10 years. So, you have though 150 more or whatever years of ranching legacy here, so, it's been a ranch ever since and even to some extent you could say that it's being ranched today. But you have those cultural elements, and we have a whole bottomland area that you know we had indigenous tribes that were here using this area for camping, for hunting, for gathering, you know, for agriculture. So, you have all of that element as well. And you also have some homestead sites that are here on the property. So, I like to talk about how the prairie and the people affected it, you know, each other because it did. You have the-- basically the stories of how the prairie shaped the people and how the people shaped the prairie. The two are so intertwined out here. So, but the buildings, people come to see the historic ranch buildings. We have an 1881 limestone mansion, 11 rooms, three story barn, massive barn, you know, the outbuildings. We have a one room schoolhouse that people enjoy seeing. And then we also, like I said, we have some of the little homestead sites that are out in among the prairie. We have corrals, they're pretty falling down, but we have some historic limestone fences that are still intact from when Mr. Jones had them built. So, we still have the foundations of those stone fences, so, there's a lot of cultural elements that make up the prairie as well. So, there's a lot going on here.

Kristin: Do you do any living history demonstrations in those buildings or is it just visitors just walk through them?

Heather: Absolutely, we do. And so, this year is kind of an anomaly, but in the in the past we have had weekly living history opportunities where volunteers come in and they dress out different time periods. Mostly right here starting with the 1880s, but we have special events coordinated and we're-- and actually we're venturing into like the 1920s, 1930s. We'll have tractor shows out here, we'll be demonstrating a historic haying, how they used to do with square bailers. And so that I think is really important to also, you know, keep going. We have wagon rides on certain occasions, we'll have barn dances in the past where people can actually, you know, help out, I mean, they can participate. But again, one thing I really feel strongly about too is to make sure that the kids understand just what we take for granted, you know, just as just like turning a water fountain, you know, on and you get running water and also hot running water. Making kids understand that it's totally different than without electricity and what it was like back in the day. But yeah, living history, I guess I-- that's one of my I love living history. I started out at Fort Scott doing living history. That's what really got me involved, I think, with the National Park Service because I loved-- I love doing all those programs, the living history, dressing out and doing all of that. So, I really want to make sure that people get to immerse themselves and really kind of walk away of maybe feeling like the house has been being lived in. I still have a long way to go to work on the exhibits, but it is on the goal to help people kind of feel like maybe just like what your park has done. Your exhibits are phenomenal, because I remember visiting and just thinking, gosh, am I supposed to be behind there's no barriers. Am I supposed to be here? You know, and it felt like the soldiers were just out in the field maybe. And I'm thinking that must be what you were trying to achieve because if it is, you did it. And I send people over to your fort all the time just because of that aspect just because of how the exhibits are so intuitive of how what it felt like back in the day. And that I think that's really what you want-- have people to feel that connection.

Ben: Yeah.

Heather: And I think I think you can achieve that if it's done well, you know, if it's done well, I think you can achieve that.

Ben: Yeah. And it does take a lot too. So, like over in the barracks, you can't be light-handed with stocking the shelves and the pegs and things like that. You got to-- So I think that's the tall barrier that that a lot of folks have found. But no, if we could somehow merge both parks so that we could have the-- those nice displays and then also the bison, that would be that'd be super cool. And I think that's-- because we have a-- we focus on the bison that were in this area a little bit on our exhibits. I think it just shocks people, what was it estimated 50 million bison on the plains?

Heather: Yeah.

Ben: But that's such a big number that you can't really comprehend until you start reading some of these firsthand accounts of just how vast these herds were as the white European settlers or even the Plains Indians were interacting with these herds and how...

Heather: And the pioneers you know coming to cross here and they would have to camp for days just to let the bison pass you know those diary accounts; I love reading those old diary accounts. It it's just the hardships alone, but just the day-to-day I find the most interesting is just the day-to-day hand accounts of what life was like, you know. And again, we talk about the bison and how between 30 and 60 million at one time down to less than a thousand. And we talk about, you know, the dynamic of the genetic makeup of the bison today are from those less than thousand animals. And it's like when you when you say that it's like wow that's amazing that you actually still have a bison that's like 99% bison genetics because the other 1% is just cattle and considering what it could have been and what it is today. It's amazing that it-- that it's-- they're going that they're even still here, yeah.

Ben: Yeah, that's something that I had never really thought of before myself. That's yeah, that's astonishing.

Heather: It is astonishing, you know, it's like, you know-- and I used-- sometimes when I'm, you know, if I had the right crowd, but you know, Teddy Roosevelt, he was a big hunter, you know, but he was one of those activists that wanted to see the bison remain, but yet his idea was, well, "I want them to be here so that I can go hunt them." It's like, what? Uh, okay, tou know. But it-- but in his way, yes. So, yeah, he helped conserve the bison.

Ben: Yeah. So I know we're running low on time here, but I did-- one question I wanted to make sure we got to was, and you've mentioned some of the things that you have, the goalposts you have in the future for Tallgrass. But coming from you, what are your hopes of what that park looks like 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now?

Heather: Well, I'm glad you asked that because, you know, I've thought about this over the years, but I never really put it into words, but couple things, you know, I love it here. So, I just want it to be so that we don't get so technologically advanced that we forget what it's like to go out and sit in the grass and hear the wind, you know, and feel the grasses and the wide open space. But also going into the historic buildings, you know, smelling-- I call it smelling history. Whether it's mold, mildew, or whatever, it still smells that historic smell. And I don't want that to be lost. I hope that we are always able to keep that in the forefront of our mind. You know, I've been here, like I said, 23 years and I was-- really had hoped that we would be further along in some of our cultural landscape because a lot of times people, you know, our name is Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve, but I kind of feel like sometimes people forget that it's also 50% cultural as well. And so, I kind of feel like I'm always having to fight that battle just to make sure that people don't forget, you know, the people had a big part in the prairie as well, and so I don't want to forget that because it was the end of the open range area era as-- that we talk about as well for the ranching legacy. So, in our Long-Range Interpretive Plan I-- the whole bottomland area that we have in the Flint Hills here. So, it was all tall grass prairie as well but because of the makeup of the prairie you can't farm the upland prairie. So, it's excellent for grazing but you can't put a plow to the upland prairie because the stones are right there at the surface. So, the bottomland though is excellent for growing crops. And so, when Mr. Jones was here, he had acres of potatoes, he had orchards, and I hope that sometime before I retire or, you know, kick the bucket, that we can put some of that cultural area back. So people will definitely get a full appreciation and experience because that was-- on the-- about probably 15 years ago we were kind of felt like we were on that path to helping put back some of that that orchard area and to grow some of those crops because then it basically, what I call it is voices in the valley, and it's going to be a-- I'm hoping to have a timeline coming from the south going up here to the north where the park is to the Preserve Headquarters and you run through different time periods of people starting out with indigenous tribes, those early years, coming up through the bottomland era and you have areas where there are potentially campsites that were from indigenous tribes. But then you also have as you're going through the different time periods, you have waysides that talk about all the different people and all the different times and all the different things that were going down-- going on down there in the bottomland. All the different voices that were going through the bottomland until you finally reach, you know, the ranch which is a magnificent grouping of buildings. And so you have, you know, thousands of years starting from the south coming up through to where you are today. And that's what I'm hoping that we can achieve that because if that is the case then maybe the cultural side will also survive because people unfortunately you know if you don't have something to kind of visually see or go to do it's easy to bypass it. And so right now we're trying to get people to go down to the bottomland and we have a portion of the trail that is that's actually handicap accessible. We just finished that project, so it's wonderful. But doing more programs down there in the bottomland to help lead people down there and then also have waysides for people to see. And I've also thought about maybe-- and maybe this might be just through AI, I'm not sure, but working with a lot of the tribes to make sure that this is right or if even if we shouldn't be doing it. Having people's experience and a voice in what we see and do here as far as educating visitors, having people come in to share their stories. But that is one thing that I would like to see as well is to in expand the cultural side down there across the road but also making sure that people see-- continue to see the value of putting feet on the ground and not just, you know, look it up on their device. You know, because you cannot ever fully-- you can't really experience it until you're out there in the wide-open space. And I had a visitor many years ago tell me that for her the prairie was good medicine. And I told her I'm going to steal that and use that and I'm not going to take credit for that. And I will tell them that a visitor was who's the one who told me that. But it is, the prairie is good medicine. And that's the one thing that's so exciting about this park is because you know there's 11,000 acres and there's really something here for everyone. And to have the kids come out and experience it because I've talked to the kids too, I said, "Okay, maybe in the next 20 years when you come back with your own children, your own family, maybe you'll see some orchards down there in the bottomland or some crops growing." And some of them you can kind of see the little light bulbs coming on. So, you just never know how you're going to impact someone because I remember going to a National Park Service program when I was six up at Mount Rushmore. You know, it was a campfire program and that stuck with me, and I was six years old, but you know, I'm sure the ranger had you like, you know, it was just the job. It was what they were doing, you know, but you never know how you're going to-- what you're saying and doing is going to impact someone. And that's a way of preserving these areas, creating stewards for the future generations, which is all about the Organic Act of 1916. It's all about, you know, you can preserve and protect stuff, so we preserve and protect you know, that's great but if there's no one to experience it, no one to love it, no one to say, "So what?," why are you are you doing it? Are you doing it for just the names sake itself? Or you have to have-- I feel you have to have someone really appreciate it and that's exactly what the last part of the Organic Act says you know leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment for future generations and that's why we do what we do. And is it easy? No. Is it worth doing? Yes.

Kristin: Absolutely.

Heather: Those are just some of the things I hope to see in the next 5 to 30 years that hopefully we'll just keep going, you know, and that's for every park. Just keep on going and making those experiences and creating those lasting stewardships for the people -- we'll make an impact.

Ben: That's awesome. Yeah, that's a hope for all of us. Well, thank you for coming on and sharing a little bit about yourself and about Tallgrass. And I'm ashamed to admit that's the last of the Kansas parks I've yet to visit. But it is it is on the list, and I definitely need to get there. But yeah.

Heather: All, good.

Ben: But yeah, thank you for coming on and hope you have a good rest of your day.

Heather: It was just nice to meet you.

Ben: Oh, it's nice to meet you, too. But you have a good one.

Heather: Hey, you too. Thanks so much.

Ben: Welcome to the discussion portion of the episode where we break down the interview and how it applies to Fort Larned. I'm Ranger Ben one of the Park Rangers here at Fort Larned National Historic Site. I do a lot of work with our social media, obviously with the podcast as well, and enjoy living history a lot. I'm also joined by Kristin Keith.

Kristin: Thanks, Ben, for asking me to join you this year. I've been volunteering out here at Fort I think for around 10 years now, I enjoy doing living history working with school groups that come through with some education programs and tours. I'm involved in Fort Larned Old Guard, I'm currently serving as chair, and also part of the Santa Fe Trail Association, our local chapter, Wet/Dry Route Chapter and the Larned Historical Society.

Ben: First off, we want to thank each of you for taking a listen to that and apologize for the technical difficulties and the audio issues that happened throughout, but thank you for pushing through, thank you for listening, and yeah, that was a fantastic interview. Really loved talking with Heather and learning a little bit more about Tallgrass. One of the things that stuck out most to me, was just the idea of how people affect the prairie and the prairie affects people. Just sort of that back and forth, and it's interesting, too, how when looking at Fort Larned, you have this fort in the middle of the plains, in the middle of the prairie, but yet you still have the natural defenses around the fort. The people are still working with the geography and everything like that that's around here. So, we've got-- as you look at the fort from the top, we got the river on two sides and then the oxbow on the third side giving, as I like to say, a moat around the fort. And so, seeing how the landscape influenced some of those decisions too here as well is kind of cool to take a look at.

Kristin: Yeah, I mean, land provides you with everything you need if you look hard enough. And I think people develop such an emotional connection to whatever land it is that they're connected with, whether they own it or whether they're visiting a park. I think if you visit a place enough times, you develop that connection. I was pretty fascinated with a lot of the things that she was saying when she was talking about, you know, the power of the bison and their impact that they had on the land. And it just really made me, first of all, it gave me chills because I was just thinking about what a-- what an experience that would have been, you know with all your five senses if you were witnessing you know a herd of buffalo or really at any park that you go to if you-- if that park has done a really good job with presenting what they have, it's an immersion experience and all five senses, you get something there. And that just really stuck out to me with some of the things that she was saying. Which I think we, you know, you do a great job here at Fort Larned doing that, hitting all the senses, so, it was fun to hear somebody else talk about it.

Ben: Yeah, no, and that kind of reminds me of Eric's experience working in the bakery here in the last episode we had just talking about how places like that do-- and when you can engage all five senses, that just further connects people to what's there. I was, like I mentioned in the episode too, I was-- I didn't realize how recent the reintroduction of the bison was, but that it was really cool to hear, again, her talk about how it's influenced the ecosystem in the area, the bison versus the cattle and then also how it's affected the visitor experience for the better. And again, hopefully that that safety continues because bison are not an animal to be trifled with.

Kristin: Not real predictable, yeah.

Ben: No.

Kristin: Yeah. Yeah, I made a note about that. You know, you always are-- you have to rely on the visitors to make good choices at the parks they visit, you know, so you're kind of at their mercy sometimes and hope people do the right thing.

Ben: Yeah. No, and one interesting thing along those notes that I heard one time, it sort of made the light bulb go off in my head was for herbivores, so for like your bison, deer, elk, things like that, everything to them is a threat and everything's coming after them. They're lower on the food chain, and so they're going to get defensive a lot quicker than say sure maybe a bear or wolf. That's not saying, right, go up and pet a bear.

Kristin: Of course.

Ben: But I think people think that, "Oh, this thing won't eat me, so it's not dangerous."

Kristin: Right.

Ben: But it's actually quite the opposite. And definitely having the respect for the animals and then the respect for the prairie as well. The difficulties of making sure that the native prairie stays the native prairie is something that we deal with here at the fort too. Which I don't think a lot of people realize that we do have prairie here, that a lot like Tallgrass, we're trying to both restore and preserve and it's a constant fight trying to keep the invasive species out of here. I can't think of it off the top of my head, but we do have invasive species that we're battling, not the same ones, that I know of, that they're battling at Tallgrass. I mean, you have invasive species when it comes to animals, but you definitely have it when it comes to plants, too and that can drastically change the ecosystem. One of the things that I also enjoyed listening to her talk about was it's so important to connect with kids that come to these sites and watching the light bulb go off in their head, watching them connect to it because those are the people that have to continue the legacy of these places. And how do you um pique that interest so that's on their radar of something they might want to do? You know, with technology these days, it's just-- it seems like it's getting harder and harder to find those people that are interested in preserving history like it needs to be done, so.

Ben: And I think too-- and one thing that I've noticed in my own personal life is, as I've gotten older, I've gotten more vested in history. I mean, I've always had an interest in history, but even more so as I've gotten older, because I think as we get older, we see we're part of history, we're part of these things that change.

Kristin: That's a great point. Ben: And so then we have more of an interest

in it. But when you're in fourth grade learning about US history, it's a lot.

Kristin: Yeah.

Ben: And especially how with the amount of material that history teachers have to go through, history isn't that interesting. Because again, you're just got your nose in a book the whole time looking at names and dates. But then when you come to a place like Fort Larned or Tallgrass Prairie where you have the historic structures and you can like Heather said smell history and engage more of those senses and here I like to say is the best classroom when you're learning about frontier forts and all that. Especially like Kansas history and things like that.

Kristin: Cuz it's so overwhelming when you're sitting in a classroom as a child, there's just so much. As an adult then you can pick and choose, you know, what's meaningful to you and focus on that, but it's good to expose kids to all kinds of different things, so.

Ben: Absolutely. And that's-- and again something else we touched on was that Open OutDoors for Kids grant through the National Park Foundation. And again here we work with the Fort Larned Old Guard, our friends group, to help give the transportation money because they're the ones that handle the or, I should say you're the ones that handle all that, all the funds for that to help reimburse some of that travel money that otherwise would be coming from-- completely from the school and these kids wouldn't be able to see again what I like to call the perfect classroom.

Kristin: Right, because what programs get cut when there's funding issues? So, you know, it's a great opportunity for schools to get those funds so they can continue field trips and take kids to have experiences and not just sit in a classroom.

Ben: That hands-on learning, especially when you're that age, really any age, but especially at that age, is so powerful. One note that I had made us as we were talking with Heather was sort of a goal that I have, and she was sort of touching on it too, especially when she was saying how she remembered going to that campfire program in Mount Rushmore when she was six. One thing that I've noticed when people talk about their experiences in parks and experiences from when they were kids, a lot of times it was, "Oh, I went to this program and this ranger was really good" or this this camp--, it was the campfire program, no doubt made an impact on her and she remembered it for a long time. But one of my goals is to provide an experience for visitors coming through that I then become one of those rangers that they remember that park because of that. And that that means tailoring the experience for each of the visitors, finding out what they're interested in. Cuz here at the fort, even though we got history, we got nature, we got architecture, engineering, science, anything that you're interested in, there's something here for you.

Kristin: Absolutely.

Ben: And I think when people see, oh, it's a historic site, I'm not really interested in history, I'm not going to go see it. But I think, like I said, there's something for everybody and finding that something for everybody can be a challenge, but when you're able to see those light bulbs go off, it's definitely rewarding.

Kristin: Yeah. The other note I took was in the very beginning of her interview, she said that there was actually something positive that came out of COVID and I hadn't even thought about how COVID had positive impacts. But especially for parks, you know, that have a vast outdoor experience, it's something I hadn't even thought about, so that was great.

Ben: That was cool. Alright, well, we thank you for listening to this episode and listening to our all our episodes this season. We hope you enjoyed them as much as we enjoyed making them and being a part of them. And keep an eye out next month for our bonus episode. But until next time, thanks for joining us and we hope you have a good one.

[Music fades]

Hosts: Ben Long and Kristin Keith Guest: Heather Brown Enjoy this episode as we talk with Heather Brown, the Chief of Interpretation at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve. Join us as we discuss the intricacies of preserving both natural and cultural resources and the challenges that come with them.

June 14, 2025

5. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Episode 5 - Eric Leonard

Transcript

Eric Leonard: That's an extraordinary park that people do not go to casually and the work I did there was I focused really on social media before we called it that. The High Plains Group of Parks was established initially in 2007 and until pretty recently was three parks not four. Hair: brown, eyes: brown, born: Mexico. A young Hispanic couple came to him, and this kid was like "Yeah I've lived here a long time I've never really come cuz it's not like there were Mexicans here." And Chris was like "Oh!"

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Eric Leonard, the superintendent of the High Plains Group in Colorado and New Mexico. The parks he manages include Amache National Historic Site, Bent's Old Fort National Historic Site, Capulin Volcano National Monument, and San Creek Massacre National Historic Site.

Ben Long: Yeah so welcome Eric, thanks for coming on and telling a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your story.

Eric: Really glad to be here. My story is my parents got married in 1967 and they got out and 25 years later they were not amused when I decided to reverse that process. And, it's the things you do when you're in your-- when you're 20. You're like, who am I? And I'd spend some time with my Leonard grandparents in Lincoln where they lived to the end of their lives and my grandmother kind of drilled into me that what mattered was my family was from Kansas. And so in 1993 I transferred to Fort Hays State University, I am a third generation graduate of that school, and it was as a first wild history major that I started working into what we now call public history. I was a volunteer by September of 1993 at Fort Hays State Historic Site and participated in the Candlelight Tour at Larned that fall. I began as a seasonal ranger in the summer of 1995 and back in those days applications were not on USAJobs, it was paper forms and you got to pick two parks. I picked only one and I was very fortunate.

Ben: That's awesome! So how many seasons did you work here at Fort Larned?

Eric: I got to work both seasonally in the summer and then intermittent in those days, so I was covering occasionally in the offseason for school programs and other things. The-- in February of 1999 I moved to Fort Smith, Arkansas and Fort Smith National Historic Site as a student employee and that was my first full-time job. And one of the through lines of my career is westward expansion sites and there-- these places all have something in common in that most of them were preserved between the mid 1950s and the mid 1960s. And why were we preserving that? Well, what was on radio movies and TV in the 1950s and 60s? In-- within a year Fort Larned opens by the Frizell family, Dodge City's Boot Hill is reconstructed, at Fort Smith Arkansas the-- a community group does a-- reconstructs the gallows and they restore, air quotes, the Judge Isaac Charles Parker's courtroom in using furniture from a building that was later that was never in that structure and that restoration lasted from 1957 until the late 1990s when it was emptied because of a tornado. And the Park Service put a new restoration that I got to be a part of now almost 25 years ago finished in 2000, at Fort Smith.

Kristin Keith: So, share with us one of your favorite memories or maybe your favorite event of your time here at Fort Larned.

Eric: Yeah, I'm a Gen Xer and so I try to be a modern person, right? The-- when Senator Dole secured funds before he retired from the Senate for the reconstruction of Fort Larned's Bakery the bake oven, I immediately went, "I want to do that" and my wife had to teach me how to bake bread. Even to this day, that's one of the more fun places I've done interpretation is in the bakery because when everything's going, that space engages all five senses. You walk in, and you're immediately assaulted by heat radiating, you smell things, you see things, it's really engaging and for the 150th anniversary back in 2009, 11 years after I left, at the time I was working as a field Park Ranger at Chickasaw National Recreation Area in Oklahoma, and so I took a weekend off and went back to my bakery and it snowed it was great, I was in short sleeves the whole time in the bakery.

Ben: Yeah, that's one thing when I take especially school kids through there that I always mention is probably would have been a sought-after job in the wintertime but might not be so fun in the middle of August.

Eric: With the door open and the windows open and even a tiny bit of a cross breeze, it's not terrible and people lingered, which was fun.

Ben: Yeah, now so what other parks have you worked at then?

Eric: Well, I was a student employee until 2002 at Fort Smith National Historic Site and while I was there, I was working on a master's degree essentially with public history emphasis. And so, my master's thesis was a public history of the gallows and capital punishment at Fort Smith which is one-- that was in the introduction for me, I went there sort of primed to I want to do post-Civil War military history what I learned real fast is there wasn't a lot of documentation. It wasn't particularly that interesting whereas the gallows: that's the only National Park that really engages in a capital punishment story and that has immediate relevance to modern audiences. And the symbology again through Western movies: True Grit and Hang Em' High-- the new exhibits in 2000 so they're not new anymore, the first thing visitors see as they walk in to that visitors center are the movie posters for those movies. Because this is probably not the case with younger visitors anymore, but visitors of a certain age they know those movies, they know them and that's what brought them often to the place. And then I was at a short time at Arkansas Post National Memorial and on the other corner of Arkansas just off of Louisiana and Mississippi and then four and a half years at Big Bend National Park in far west Texas. A park of 800,000 acres and I moved there with an infant; we had our second child while we were there and that's a pretty remote place in the in the 48 contiguous states. Our OB was 4 and a half hours away and so that has some consequences around grocery planning and just other things and it-- that's an extraordinary park that people do not go to casually. And the work I did there was I focused really on social media before we called it that and digital interpretation. I managed that park's website it's print publications like the park newspaper and trail guides and other things. And you get to do things in a park of that size that you don't get to do in a park like Fort Larned and that's part of the reason why we work for the National Park Service is it-- it is rooted in place but there's now as of yesterday 432.

Ben: Yeah, I saw that!

Eric: In you almost 15 years, well 15 years ago now, I applied for my first management position was at Andersonville National Historic Site in South Georgia. And so there's an emerging theme I have a lot of experience with sites of violence, sites of controversy and there's sort of a an escalation in some respects to that. And I was at Andersonville during the Civil War 150th anniversary, one of the things I realized when I got there was the newest scholarship was older than I was. And so we put a lot of energy as a park staff doing something we couldn't do but the management jargon here is we force multiplied, we used a research friends group research grant program that had existed and we heavily marketed it to-- for four years to grad students working around the edges of prisoner of war topics. Mostly in the Civil War, but in other time periods as well and 15 years later the state of scholarship around military prisons of the American Civil War is in a totally different place than it was, and that's something I played a tiny role in and I'm really proud of. Almost a decade ago, in late-- about this time of year in 2014 I interviewed and was offered the position of superintendent at Minute Man Missile National Historic Site and so that-- I went from the deadliest place on American soil where 13,000 United States soldiers died at the hands of the Confederacy in 14 months, to stewarding a park that talks about weapons of mass destruction that erase cities off of face of the earth. And that's a-- one of the most exciting, one of the most complex cultural resources the National Park Service administered, because in 1994 when the Air Force walked away, they left anything that wasn't hazardous or wasn't top secret. And so there's all kinds of stuff and that museum collection has like literally scotch-shaped balls and paper clips that were used to pass time in an underground control center and tells the stories. This is a-- sometimes when we talk about living history we define it too small. At Minuteman Missile National Historic Site, half of my interpretive staff and all of my volunteers were Air Force veterans who'd worked during the Cold War, many of them if not in that particular launch control facility, in ones just like it, and they brought in authenticity and personal experiences that are a precious and irreplaceable resource because they're not getting any younger. And so we also-- we did an oral history project there that was pretty exciting and the gold ring we were able to get in that oral history project was an interview with former Vice President of the United States Dick Cheney and that interview is extraordinary because not only was he Secretary of Defense for George H.W. Bush and Vice President for George W. Bush, he was White House Chief of Staff for General Ford he knew nuclear command and control very intimately. And as a-- in between college experiences in 1960/61 when he went back to Wyoming he worked for a contractor that was laying communications cable connecting nuclear missile silos to each other and to their control centers. So this man who had a nuclear football follow him for eight years, helped build the system and we wouldn't have known that without that oral history interview. So never doubt the capacity of your resource to remind you don't know everything about it.

Ben: That's really cool. And then if I'm not mistaken, you went from there to your position now, right?

Eric: No, there was a pandemic detour back to West Texas where I was Superintendent of the Guadalupe Mountains National Park in far west Texas. Guadalupe Mountains and Big Bend are-- they're like unicorns it shouldn't actually exist, because when Texas entered the Union it held its public land, it did not give it to the Federal Government and so Federal National Parks on a large landscape conservation scale, those are a choice in Texas and Texans in the 1930s and again in the 1960s fought to preserve those places for everyone, for all Americans. And Guadalupe Mountains is the largest and oldest wilderness area in the state of Texas and 86,000 acres, it contains eight of the 10 highest points in the state of Texas and the smallest of the named peaks in Guadalupe Mountains is 5 feet higher than the highest point in Big Bend National Park and I get to say that because I've worked in both places.

Ben: That's awesome.

Eric: And then about a year and a half ago, I had the opportunity to in a sense come home, come back to the Arkansas River. This is scorekeeping that only I care about, I've worked at all of the National Park units along the Arkansas River corridor except for one: and that's Brown vs. Board of Education in Little Rock, Arkansas. I've worked at all the rest -- all of them. There aren't that many, but I think it's cool and it's exciting to be here, this is history that's personally very meaningful to me and these stories connect dot-- really important dots.

Ben: Absolutely. Now you-- we made brief mention of the 432nd National Park being added yesterday. Another I guess new one, although we're getting we're getting there, is Camp Amache, which is under your purview. What has it been like to oversee a site that is so new, and you're trying to get programs going there, and things like that?

Eric: Yeah I came in midstream. It's important to note parks are born by communities even National-- especially National Parks and there's a long journey in Grenada, Colorado that starts with the historic operation of the camp 80 years ago 1942 to 1945. And then in 1975 and '76 a statewide Colorado initiative for America's bicentennial was the very first pilgrimage by Japanese Americans to the Amache site and so this coming year will mark the 50th anniversary of pilgrimages to Amache. The- in the 1990s John Hopper, a high school teacher now the principal at of the school in Grenada, started assigning his students research about this history that was right next to them. And those-- we now have 30 years of high school students that have touched that story and made it part of theirs in addition to the Japanese American stakeholder communities that lobbied for years for this to happen. And that's been fun to join midstream because we-- by the time I arrived, the park had been authorized by Congress and the President of the United States but pro tip here: the National Park Service and the Federal Government cannot manage anything it does not own. And in-- around the time I arrived a site manager that I supervise arrived at Amache and in his presence renting space in the Amache Preservation Society, that high school organization, in the museum they manage, was boots on the ground that got land acquisition moving forward. The community donated the property to the National Park Service to establish the park and that formal establishment occurred this past February. What's next? So what we have now is about a 600 acre compound. There was a square mile was where the military and administrative facilities were where the residential compound was for 8,000 people and its associated cemetery is the other thing that's preserved today. The camp itself was 10,000 acres that surrounded the community. This prime Arkansas River bottomlands, farmlands, and the bulk, if not all, of the population of the Grenada Relocation Center or more popularly Camp Amache or Amache were Japanese American farmers from the Central Valley around Merced, California. There were populations from LA and San Francisco too, but the farming population's really important and part of what they were doing was farming on the on the larger property of the camp. What we have today is a road system that was designed in 1942 and started failing in the sum-- the first rains in the summer, and then foundations for the associated structures at the site. That high school organization, the Amache Preservation Society and other partners, reconstructed a barrack and they restored a recreation hall that's back on its original foundation about 40% of the fabric of that building is original. They've also reconstructed a guard tower and then partially restored and reconstructed the signature water tower at the camp that stands 72 feet tall and so if what you're looking at you can see it from about five miles away as you're driving US-50.

Ben: Wow.

Eric: Yeah. And so what's next for that park is we anticipate in in the next year moving into a long-- some kind of long range planning where we start to talk about what else we preserve, what you what else we build if anything at the site. If you're planning a visit right now there is no Visitor Center, there is no water, there are no toilets. And before you before you walk you have to crawl and we're at a point now where we're thinking about the infrastructure we want to build and being really mindful about what's sustainable in a 21st century environment. And so there's really interesting conversations going on there around using virtual or augmented realities to recreate a landscape that we should not rebuild because that would cost an extraordinary amount of money and then we'd have to maintain all those things. There's other ways to get there and so those conversations we anticipate starting in the next year.

Phil Grossardt: Nearly as old as the United States is the tradition of celebrating our independence from Great Britain. Though holidays were few and far between at Fort Larned in the 1860s, Independence Day was one such holiday. Join us this Independence Day weekend, July 4th through the 6th, as we bring Fort Larned to life with an Independence Day celebration akin to those celebrating it in 1868. With programs and demonstrations for the whole family, we can think of no better way to enjoy the holiday than by touching a bit of history. For more information call us at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov. All too soon, we’re a part of history. Help preserve our past, today. The Fort Larned Old Guard is a non-profit organization designated to benefit programs and operations at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Over the years, The Fort Larned Old Guard has bought artifacts with direct provenance to Fort Larned, commissioned paintings dealing with Fort Larned’s story, and much more. If you enjoy what we do at Fort Larned, please consider donating to The Fort Larned Old Guard or becoming a member. Visit www.ftlarnedoldguard.com for more details on donating and membership.

Kristin: What's it like managing and trying to preserve so many sites especially when one is brand new? Like how do you divide your time or manage all your time?

Eric: I don't do anything by myself. That, or very little anyway. Our regional director recently said to myself and some colleagues, if we're thinking about the National Park Service, one of our challenges is we have an organization that's based on how we managed parks a hundred years ago. If you were building it from the ground up today it would look different. And the High Plains group of parks was established initially in 2007 and until pretty recently it was three parks not four. And that's-- going oldest to youngest, because this is fun, Capulin Volcano National Monument established in August 1916 making it about two weeks older than the National Park Service itself, Bent's Old Fort National Historic Site established in 1963, authorized in 1960, Sand Creek Massacre National Historic Site authorized in 2000 established in 2007, and then Amache National Historic Site author authorized in '22 established in '24. And the geographic space is the Col-- southeast Colorado parks are about 75 minutes away from each other Capulin Volcano is a two-and-a-half-hour drive from Bent's Fort. From other places it's even longer. And so, we're blessed in the 21st century with digital tools to communicate. I had-- we had a staff meeting this morning where we were talking to Captain Volcano staff and it's about supporting the teams and not necessarily repeating function at four little places. Because at a certain point if you hire managers to do everything you run out of money for rangers and nothing, I do is successful without field staff at all four places. So, it's a balance and the-- each place needs something different. We-- one of the things that we've been working toward is the-- we had a retirement at Sand Creek Massacre, so in February a new site manager will be joining us and he's coming from outside of the National Park Service but with a really good federal preservation background and some experience working with tribes because that park by law prioritizes working with its associated tribes and that matters. And there's another interesting break in the group-- in this group of four in that two of them are 20th century parks two of them are 21st century parks and they vibrate differently. The Sand Creek Massacre the-- about two weeks ago was the 160th anniversary of the massacre and I was there that morning, and my job was to make sure that our tribal representatives got what they needed. There were visitors who were flummoxed by the place because no you don't have a big formal program and color guards and other things there. We listen to our tribal partners and let them direct the kind of work we do and the most important thing I can do at Sand Creek Massacre is show up, introduce the tribal representatives, and then get out of the way.

Ben: Yeah, and that was one question that I was considering is as we look at preserving sites we have a site like Sand Creek or Capulin where obviously we're preserving the land and the features there but also preserving an idea, which I suppose you do at all parks, right? But then you have sites like Amache where you have a little bit of both and then Bent's Old Fort where you where you definitely have the historic, well there reconstructed historic structure, but just sort of preserving physical things as well as metaphysical things and the balance of that.

Eric: One of the tools I've done, I've used in the past is what's the constitutional question or story around each of these places? That's a sort of an unassailable hook and at Minute Man Missile National Historic Site it's baked into the preamble of the constitution: what are the choices a nation makes to defend itself to provide for the common defense? And here at Bent's Old Fort I've started to introduce the idea of the Commerce Clause as a central question governing how people utilize opportunity and economic activity in a pla-- in this cultural crossroads. And so that's one way of doing it.

Kristin: What connections have you found between your sites and Fort Larned?

Eric: Two of them, Amache and you Bent's Old Fort are on, well three of them, are on-- Capulin Volcano as well, but a little further down are all on the Santa Fe Trail. The other thing that unites all four places is this southern prairie landscape and environment, the short grass prairies in Kansas and Colorado and in northeastern New Mexico. And so that's the obvious thing. The the three Colorado sites have a really, in fact have a tight narrative, that starts in the 1830s and goes 110 years straight line from one to the other to the other. And that's something that we're going to start to leverage a little bit more because it-- I think a lot about what it's like to be a National Park in fly over country, because I've done it about half of my career and Fort Larned is one of those places. When people are planning National Park trips, these are not places that immediately come to mind for most people. So how do how do you package them in a way that's meaningful? And thinking about westward expansion and pop cult-- what do Americans know about their history? Often the most effective teacher isn't classrooms, it's Hollywood, it's our pop culture and all of these westward expansion parks between the 1930s the early 1970s, Hollywood makes no money on westerns anymore. And so that has implications around audience. Who are the people that people that are highly motivated to go have a sense they know what they think they know, but what about the people who do not see any relevance in these places? And I have an Andersonville story that kind of caps this. I-- in 2012 I hired a Park Guide, a local history teacher I feel, and I still have guilt over take-- pulling a really great history teacher out of public school system and turning him into a Park Ranger. His first weekend as an employee he gave a tour of the Andersonville National Cemetery to the members of one of his grad school history education classes. And they're in the back in section "H" which is the big burial section and one of the students goes "Hey that's a funny name." And it was Osceola Pochontas the grave is 10,676 the next morning I went into our research files and went "Do we have anything on that grave?" We did. I still to this day remember looking at that because it was a copy of this enlistment record from the National Archives. Hair: brown, eyes: brown, born: Mexico -- sailor. And we sat with that a while and then a couple months later, that same employee was in the cemetery on a weekend and a young Hispanic couple came to him and this kid was like "Yeah I've lived here a long time, I've never really come, cuz it's not like there were Mexicans here" and Chris was like... And for the next two years we saw that couple at every single program.

Ben: Wow, that's really cool. Yeah, being able to connect people that closely to the resource and being able to see just a tangible success like that that's really cool.

Eric: Yep. It's the most important thing we have the potential to do.

Ben: Absolutely. Anything we missed out anything you'd like to add Eric?

Eric: Well we hope to see you in southeast Colorado at some point. These-- this group of parks is connected to Fort Larned and they're a day trip.

Ben: Yeah, no and I mean definitely quickly connected like you said to Sand Creek, Bent's Fort, and Capulin being all on the Santa Fe Trail and even with Sand Creek, that's a big part of our story and a big part of what the military did here and in response to that. But yeah, I mean all parks are connected because once you pull on one thread of history it seems like the whole ball comes with it. So, definitely interesting seeing those puzzle pieces come together the more history you study. Thank you for coming on thank you for sharing your story your experiences in the Park Service and what you've been doing in the recent years. Thanks for coming on.

Eric: It's my pleasure.

Ben: Yeah and we hope to hear more from you in the future. You have a good one.

Eric: Thank you, you too.

Ben: Also joining me is Liz Rasmussen.

Liz Rasmussen: Thanks, Ben, for having me. I have been volunteering at the Fort for about a year and a half. I really enjoy living history and learning more about the history of Fort Larned, which is so local here in Kansas, it's kind of cool to have something local that has such a big impact on how Larned was established and how the fort was established.

Ben: Well, just like all the other interviews this season that was a really fun one. I really enjoyed talking with Eric as a fellow Park Service employee. Personally, I really enjoyed hearing his journey through the National Park Service and his perspective on what he's seen at the different parks that he's worked at and also the common themes that sort of run through them as well.

Kristin: And of all the guests that we have talked to, the vast array of parks that he has been a part of it spans over so much history and is not just central to the Civil War, it just so many different stories. It's really unique to hear him talk about everywhere he's been and then how he ties all those together, so that was really fun to listen to.

Liz: And each different location he was at he-- I'm pretty sure he had different job duties so that kind of ties into the different jobs you can do in the Park Service and that's interesting to hear about especially for people that want to join the Park Service and here's all of your options and the different things you can do.

Kristin: Right and which has helped him now with what he's doing now. I liked how he emphasized, , it's a team like every park we work together as a team and I think because he's had all those experiences it's helped him become the leader that he is. But I do appreciate that he knows it takes lots of people to make a park work.

Ben: Absolutely. And yeah, to Liz's point too there's-- I mean there's countless jobs in the Park Service And just like I kind of-- as I dove into Army history when I started my job here, there's all sorts of jobs in the Army too. You've-- I mean even back 160 years ago, especially today, you have all sorts of different people doing all sorts of different things and even though we're a small park here at the fort, not all of us are at the front desk or doing tours or doing living history, there's a lot of those that work here, and we heard from some of them last season, of just the different things that go on behind the scenes. Cuz when you take a look at it of like oh who cuts the grass, cuz you need the grass cut and who helps restore the buildings if they're starting to fall apart, cuz they fall apart every once in a while. And so once you're in the Park Service and especially with the vast experience that Eric has had, you do see the amount of people that it takes to keep a park running and then, like his experience coming out on the tail end of uh Amache becoming a National Park Service site, just how many people it takes to get a site like that up and running and like we heard earlier in the season with Dr. Scott with the early years of the fort and telling the history through archaeology and you bring in all these different people that aren't necessarily involved with the park in the long term, but they're involved in this short window of time of establishing it as a National Park establishing its story and establishing its purpose for generations to come.

Kristin: It definitely takes all kinds of people with lots of different types of interest and I loved, and it kind of caught me off guard, but I loved when he said when he was here, that when he chose to do interpretation, he wanted to be in the bakery. I mean you think everybody wants to do a firearm demo or shoot the cannon or be over in the barracks. But he chose to be in the bakery and I just thought well that's so cool that that was the niche that he found for himself, and not something that everybody would want to do. But it was obviously so important in the history of Fort Larned because you had to bake 400 or so loaves of bread a day so men could eat. And I also liked how he talked about when people walk into the bakery here, it just takes over your five different senses which is something you might not think about too if you walk into the barracks, but when you go into the bakery you do get all those different things. So that was very interesting to me.

Liz: Back to what Ranger Ben said, it takes a community to help advertise and really build up the different historic sites there-- especially like Fort Larned. Fort Larned's not really heard of very often where you know nothing big happened here, there's not very many big names, but we have a lot of people from the community that come out here and volunteer, and then they go out there and search for volunteers and kind of help connect people with Fort Larned and bring it up in conversations and people are like "Oh I didn't know that was out there." And they come out here and they love it, and then you know, word of mouth that gets more people hear of it. I like-- he talked about how it takes community, and it really does. You need a sense of community and everyone that works and does what they need to do on the National Historic Sites, they're like a community, they each have a job, they each help each other out if it's needed, it's just one big community.

Ben: Yeah and then with word of mouth you get-- especially in establishing a historic site you have your people that are there to establish the site and then you have those that are spreading the word about it too. And then Kristin back to your point of people going into the bakery and Eric's experience of just engaging all five senses and that reminded me of going back to couple episodes ago with LueCreasea, of connecting the visitor to the resource. I mean when you go into the bakery, most if not all of us have had bread at some point of our in our lives, and so you can have that relatable point of well I mean there's food there's no grocery store or anything like that out here. You got to be self- sustaining in that way and who are those people that are helping a place like that run? And I think that can-- that message can certainly apply to the Park Service too of well there's these certain jobs that need to be done who's going to be doing it? Because it's it just doesn't get done on its own.

Kristin: Sure. Going back in history a little bit, I really enjoyed listening to him and it helped me make the connection, but when he was talking about how the 1950s western TV shows really piqued interest in the frontier and then you see these National Historic Sites and Parks come up like Fort Larned or Boot Hill in Dodge City or whatever. But I thought you know yeah, I hadn't thought about that but thank you Hollywood for getting people interested again.

Liz: That is something that I noticed a lot of people gravitate towards nowadays is, oh that that famous person was there or that famous thing happened there and everyone wants to know more about it, wants to go check it out. Having that connection to somebody they've seen on TV or they know is famous, they like to come out and kind of make them feel like they're a part of them in some way.

Ben: Yeah and that was that was interesting to hear his perspective on, and I had-- again I hadn't really thought about what's popular at the time influencing these sites that we preserve, and so taking a deeper look at that, I mean you have sites all around the country like when we were talking with Celeste, there's some of those battlefields that were preserved right after the battle or very soon after. And so you have a lot of the original scars that were left from the battle but then you have a lot of the Revolutionary War sites that they just went back to farmland right after and it wasn't until years later that it was seen as important to preserve something like that. And that's why we're grateful here for the Ranch Era to be that buffer in between the fort's Military Era and when it was quote unquote popular to preserve western type sites like this. Well we hope you enjoyed listening to this episode as much as we enjoyed being a part of it We hope you join us next month for our next episode and we hope you join us for the rest of the season. Until next time, have a good one.

Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. Join us next month as we talk with Heather Brown, the Chief of Interpretation at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, share footsteps with your friends and family, and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and X, and as always, enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website www.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast.

[Music fades]

Hosts: Ben Long, Kristin Keith, and Liz Rasmussen Guest: Eric Leonard Enjoy this episode as we talk with Eric Leonard, the superintendent of the High Plains Group in Colorado and New Mexico. The parks he manages include Amache National Historic Site, Bent's Old Fort National Historic Site, Capulin Volcano National Monument, and San Creek Massacre National Historic Site.

May 4, 2025

4. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Episode 4 - Luecreasea Horne

Transcript

Luecreasea Horne: Oral history piece of it is that he falls asleep down by the cottonwood tree down by the Solomon River that is to the south of Nicodemus and wakes up with this brilliant idea that is going he's going to create this all-black community. Several banks, newspapers, schools, churches, pharmacies, doctor's office, lawyer's office, title company, anything that you needed for your little town to survive Nicodemus had. These black folks they did it. Excuse me, you fast forward to about 1920s, 1930s and we have documentation of them bringing in carnival rides, so they had Ferris Wheels, Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had, they had they had it all.

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Luecreasea Horne, a Park Ranger at Nicodemus National Historic Site and descendant of some of the original settlers of the town of Nicodemus.

Ben Long: So welcome Luecreasea.

Luecreasea: Thank you.

Ben: Thanks for coming in, talking with us today about your experiences. As with all our other guests, as we get started why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your experiences in the Park Service, and your experiences there at Nicodemus.

Luecreasea: Excellent! So yes, my name is Luecreasea Horne, and I am a Park Ranger there at Nicodemus National Historic Site. If you're familiar with Kansas get on I-70 and get over to Hays, Kansas, and from Hays, Kansas head north for a little less than an hour, and Nicodemus is right there off of Highway 24. And so, I work there and I am a sixth generation descendant. So what that actually means is that my great great great grandparents Tom and Zerena Johnson and their three kids. They came over with that first group from Kentucky and helped established Nicodemus.

Ben: That's really cool.

Luecreasea: I think so.

Ben: That's really cool to have that connection. Now is Nicodemus the only Park Service site you've worked at? No, I started off when-- so Nicodemus became a unit of the park service in '96 and so they needed a summer help and I applied and I got on and worked during the summers. And then after I graduated from Fort Hays State University, go Tigers, I had some mentors in the Park Service that were like you shouldn't maybe try to pursue this as a career. And so I was like do I really want to be a-- you know, work with the Park Service? Do I want to be in Interp and have to wear the uniform all this time? 'Cuz I-- even though I did it and I and I wore the uniform, I thought Park Rangers were a little, a little, how do I be PC here? I thought we were nerds, okay?

Kristin Keith: This safe space for that.

Ben: Which we are.

Luecreasea: Thank you. I know, yeah, right? And so, I'm in that nerd category, no. I didn't know if I wanted to work with the Park Service, but I was like, I don't have anything else going on, let me apply. And so, I got on permanently at Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, the Arch there in St. Louis.

Ben: That's awesome.

Luecreasea: Yeah.

Ben: So how long did you work there?

Luecreasea: I worked there a little under, almost three years, not quite three years. And just to throw this out there, my first day on the job was 9/11.

Kristin: Oh wow.

Ben: Oh wow.

Luecreasea: Yes, so I didn't have any cable or my phone or anything hooked up in my apartment yet. And so I'm all walking down to the Arch that morning and I don't know what's going on, I'm like this is my first day on the job, and so when I walk into the entryway, everybody is gathered together and I'm like, "Wow okay, this is how they start the-- this is how they start the morning, it's pretty intense." And they keep talking and I'm listening and they're like "Uh yeah we have this catastrophe that's gone on and in and the airplanes have flown into the buildings." And so they weren't sure if they were targeting other monuments, and so they was like, you know we don't know if they are targeting the Arch or anything like that so they were going to send us home. And I just have to throw this in there. So first day on the job I didn't have a phone or cable, or anything set up and in this in this whole group of us there's probably I'd say about 50 of us all together, all the groups all together, and this lady comes up and she's just she looks flustered and she's like "Is there a Luecreasea Holmes here?" And I'm like, "Yeah." "Your mom is on the phone." And she said, "Call her." Yeah, so she tracked me down, she tracked me down. But yeah, so that was my first day on the job, but I stayed there a little under a year. Arch was great, it was beautiful, worked over at the old courthouse, was able to work with the kids with the coming in and visiting and doing all that, worked at the top of the arch and inside of the museum, so it was it was a great time.

Ben: That's cool.

Kristin: Give us some background of the Nicodemus community. What is the story there/

Luecreasea: So, excuse me, very unique story, it starts off that W.R. Hill, white gentleman from Indiana, has gone around and he has he's built towns, tried to tried to build up towns. He was successful a few times. And the oral history piece of it is that he falls asleep down by the cottonwood tree down by the Solomon River that is to the south of Nicodemus and wakes up with this brilliant idea that he's going to create this all-black community, and capitalism at its best, because he's going to charge these folks to come and live in Nicodemus. And so he-- they formed the Nicodemus Town Company, the other gentleman that he's with is the minister W.H. Smith, a black minister out of Kentucky, and he's in the on the eastern part of Kansas. And so, they meet up and they talk, and he tells him his idea and so Smith is like "I know where we can go get these folks." And so they go back to Kentucky where Smith was from, and they go to the churches and they tell them about this opportunity of the land of milk and honey. You'll be able to have your own land and do whatever you want to in Nicodemus, and so--

Kristin: And what year was that?

Luecreasea: So that was 1877. 1877 when they're telling them this. Excuse me, when they're telling them this. And so they're-- most of the folks are from Kentucky, but others from Tennessee and Mississippi and eastern part of Kansas and just all over, but the bulk of the group is from Kentucky. So the folks that helped start Nicodemus are folks who were previously enslaved. So, this is about 13 years after they had been emancipated. So these folks are the blacksmiths, the carpenters, these type of people who have just a little bit of money saved up so that they can make this trip and pay for their land in Nicodemus. And so when I tell folks this, some people are familiar with the Exoduster movement. And so the Exoduster movement is 3 years after Nicodemus happens, and that's when mass migration of blacks are leaving the south and unfortunately a lot of those folks were destitute, didn't have anything, just were leaving the south just to get out of the south. The people of Nicodemus that came, Hill is targeting these folks because they have a little bit of money. And so, we make sure we convey that story to people because they had to pay for their $5 for their piece of land, their train ticket, and have a little bit of money to try to survive that first year. So these people are tough, gritty, determined, and have a lot of faith.

Kristin: Sure.

Luecreasea: Yeah.

Ben: Now growing up, how much of the knowledge of your family-- your family's history of Nicodemus and even just the history of Nicodemus were you aware of?

Luecreasea: I was-- out of a lot of my cousins, I was unique in the situation that my mother and Angela Bates, my cousin Angela. So my mother and Angela, first cousins because their moms were sisters. Angela is the-- she founded the Nicodemus Historical Society and then my mother, she was always involved with Nicodemus and just wanted to always see it to try to grow. And so, these ladies in their late 30s and early 40s, I'm sitting listening to them talk about Nicodemus and see them put sweat equity into Nicodemus. And so, I was able to hear the history and see the history as a young girl, and that they just imparted that in me. At the time, I could care less, like we got to go volunteer to plant trees, oh? I got to volunteer at Homecoming? I'm trying to-- I'm trying to get my party on! But so, as that young girl myself and my two brothers, we were always told the history and we had we had to live it and walk and put that sweat equity into Nicodemus.

Kristin: But now you're so appreciative that that was your experience.

Luecreasea: Amen, amen, amen. I'm like wow, thank you, mhm.

Ben: So one of my big questions coming into this, that I had for you, was having such a personal tie and knowing the history early on, has that been a help or a hindrance when inspiring visitors at Nicodemus?

Luecreasea: I would say is has been an help when talking to visitors because one of the top two questions besides where the restroom is at, is they want to know are there any descendants that still live in Nicodemus? And so I'm able to say, "Yes, you're looking at one right here" and they go, "Oh my goodness, you work for the Park Service, how great is that?" Like no, it's awesome. So being able to let them know that there are descendants that still live in Nicodemus, work in Nicodemus, and then the 20 or so folks that live there, that that definitely helps when speaking to the visitors. Working with the Park Service, on my family side of it, I have to work-- I have to walk a tight rope because they see me in uniform and then they're like, "Well can the Park Service do this for us? Can you do..." You know, so I'm like "Well no I can't I can't do that or that, but maybe we can do this or that." If that makes sense. So with the family I have to work-- they're proud that I'm in the uniform and that I'm representing us and telling our story, but then they're also like "Well they can you guys-- can we borrow 17 chairs and 15..." Well let's fill out some information and usage and all that good stuff. So I have to work-- walk that tight rope.

Kristin: What do you feel like is the most memorable part of your family story there?

Luecreasea: Oh my goodness. The most memorable part. So it would be-- so she would be my great great grandmother Emma Williams, she comes over with her mom and dad Tom and Zarena, but she's pregnant. And so she gets on the train and rides the train with everybody else, they get off at Ellis, Kansas and then she has to walk over to Nicodemus with everybody else. She has to walk over to Nicodemus and she's like eight months pregnant doing this. And so, when she reaches Nicodemus and there's nothing there, folks are folks are devastated but they're saying, "Hey we're going to make this work." So, they build her dugout first and they get there in September and she has Henry the first baby born in Nicodemus in October. So she's, yeah that's how pregnant she is.

Kristin: Yeah.

Luecreasea: So just the determination and the grit I was like "Wow these folks are, these folks are-- they were built different." But we did, with the Nicodemus Historical Society a reenactment of the Ellis Trail. So from Ellis Kansas to Nicodemus is the trail that they took to get to Nicodemus. And so Angela wrote a whole script for us and we had cousins that flew in from all over and we had wagon trains and we didn't do the full 35 miles, We only walked probably a mile and a half, but it felt like 35 miles. We're in period clothing, we're trying to keep up with the wagons, it's in September, It was hot, we're walking in the tall grass, people are falling in badger holes, we're looking out for snakes, and I'm just like, we need to have this where the only way you can come back for Homecoming and participate is if you do the Ellis Trail, so you have a real appreciation of what they went through, yeah.

Ben: Yeah, no, that's one thing in doing living history and reenacting, that you really get a true appreciation for our ancestors and just how tough they were.

Luecreasea: Man, a whole different level cuz we had-- you know, I had the boots on and then the dress from the neck all the way down to your ankles and you're trying to walk, and it was just like, wow.

Kristin: Although, people always say that to me but I'm like well, but you didn't know what you were missing then.

Luecreasea: True, true.

Ben: Yeah, it was just the way of life was just.

Kristin: It was just hard, and you didn't know any different.

Ben: Yeah, makes you wonder what our descendants will think of us. So, but I've been curious too because, I mean I've worked at helping out at Nicodemus here and there, but of course you working there for longer and having a personal connection. What do you see as people's first response like what draws them to the park and then what do they go away with?

Luecreasea: Right. What draws them to the park is they, if they know about Nicodemus, then they are interested in this story of these formerly enslaved folks who come and are able to build this, at one time prosperous town. And so they're intrigued with that story. And I always try to impart and let people know, I always say if you don't leave-- if you only leave with these two things from Nicodemus, know that yeah there were black folks that came west. As if in the movies if they're not showing black folks going west during that time, you don't think there were any black folks going west, yes there were black folks that were going west. And then there were black folks who were landowners, and they were so proud of that that they were landowners. And so they were able to like I mentioned 13 year-- 13, 14 years removed from being enslaved coming to this unknown territory and you have this opportunity to own your own land. And I was like, how awesome is that? How awesome is that? And that's what I tried to make the people understand that these people even though they were lied to and told that this was, you know, this mecca of a place with hundreds and thousands of trees where you can build your home and wild horses that if you can catch them you can tame them and they're yours. And when they get there there's just absolutely nothing there, and they have to build it from the ground up. And Nicodemus on the 160 acres, the town site, several banks, newspapers, schools churches, pharmacies, doctor's office, lawyer's office, title company, anything that you needed for your little town to survive Nicodemus had. These black folks they did it.

Kristin: How many visitors do you get that have no idea of your story? Just stumble upon on the site and stop and then you get the opportunity to introduce them to this story that they know nothing about.

Luecreasea: I would say probably about 30% to 40% of our visitors have no clue. They're coming to get their stamp. Or they was like this said this was a rest area you know.

Kristin: Yeah.

Luecreasea: I need to use the restroom. So, I would say about 30% to 40% of the folks don't have a clue what Nicodemus is about, and I love that because I'm able to tell them and I'm like "Yeah, oh you want to use the restroom hold on let me tell you." No, or I'm standing right there when they come out and I get to--. No, but I'm able to tell that story and give it to them and then for the people who want to hear it, they walk away like "Wow we had no idea." And they appreciate that.

Ben: Now admittedly Fort Larned and Nicodemus don't have the biggest annual visitation.

Luecreasea: Yeah.

Ben: Unfortunately cuz they're both absolute gems.

Luecreasea: Yes.

Ben: But they are National Parks still and there's federal funding that goes to keeping our doors open and--

Luecreasea: Yes.

Ben: educating the public on the stories that are here. What would you argue for sites like Nicodemus and Fort Larned, what is your argument for them staying National Parks?

Luecreasea: So even though I was talking stuff earlier about Park Service folks being nerds, I was I was talking stuff, I love being a Park Ranger and I love being a part of the Park Service. And what I absolutely love about it is it tells everyone's story, yes. And that's what America is, we all have a story and the Park Service tells everyone's story. And so Nicodemus is a part of that story. This is after reconstruction and this is you know, folks are you know, manifest destiny "Go west young man" and so these folks had an opportunity and the Homestead Act to participate in that and telling the story of African-Americans participating in that needs to be told.

Kristin: It seems to be a theme that we've heard today in interviewing other people that the Park Service tells stories of not only famous people, but regular people. And I never thought about that before and so it's been really interesting to kind of focus on that today that, yeah.

Ben: Yeah I mean it's tough when you're in school, you're studying history it is really just the notable figures and events and things like that but when you really get into the nitty-gritty of history, you realize oh that was just a piece of the puzzle. Like what made up the majority of the puzzle was people just like you and me.

Luecreasea: Yes.

Ben: People just trying to live their life and try to contribute where they can and when you really get down to history that's what really makes it interesting is realizing that these people were confronted with the same situations that we are sometimes or at least same choices that we have to make on a daily basis, which is why history is so important and so interesting.

Luecreasea: Amen to that, yep. Good to tell everybody's story.

Ben: Yeah

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Phil Grossardt: Our biggest event of the year is just around the corner! join us on May 24th through the 26th for our annual Memorial Day weekend event. Experience this historic fort as it comes to life with the sights, sounds, and smells of a frontier post from 160 years ago. Firing demonstrations, blacksmith demonstrations, programs, and more will be sure to educate and entertain the whole family. Come for one day or all three and experience history for yourself. For more information call us at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov. All too soon we're a part of history, help preserve our past today. The Fort Larned Old Guard is a nonprofit organization designed to benefit programs and operations at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Over the years, The Fort Larned Old Guard has bought artifacts with direct provenance to Fort Larned, commission paintings dealing with Fort Larned's story, and much more. If you enjoy what we do at Fort Larned, please consider donating to The Fort Larned Old Guard or becoming a member. Visit triple "w", "f" "t" old guard dot com, that's www.ftlarnedoldguard.com for more details on donating and membership.

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Ben: So I know usually a park has like their big event during the year and of course Nicodemus it's Homecoming. So for those who might not know what Homecoming is all about can you explain a little bit about that and maybe the significance for those who come for it?

Luecreasea: Yes, yes. So it started out as the Emancipation Proclamation Day. And so they took that from Kentucky and so our descendants who were enslaved at that time, usually the beginning of August when there is nothing to plant or harvest their-- the slave masters would allow them to have a weekend where the other plantations they were able to get together and celebrate and things like that. So they brought that tradition with them out there to Nicodemus. So they get there in September of 1877, and then that summer of 1878, they say we're still going to have our Emancipation Day. And so-- well they named it Emancipation Proclamation Day, and so that August of 1878 they had that and so at this time, the census had it at around I think around 700 people that lived in Nicodemus and around the town site of township of Nicodemus. And so down by the grove, which is kind of down by the Solomon River where a grove of trees were down there they set up this celebration. And so for the weekend that Friday, Saturday, and Sunday they said that they had horse races and, excuse me, baseball games and set up food stands and just had different activities and then ended it on a Sunday going, everybody going to church. Well they continued that year after year and it was still down at the groves for a long time, excuse me. You fast forward to about 1920s, 1930s and we have documentation of them bringing in carnival rides, so they had Ferris wheels, yeah, yeah, yeah, they had it all. Exhibition baseball teams were coming in and playing games, boxing matches, politicians were coming to Nicodemus to come and speak, and they said that it got up to anywhere to about 2,000 to 3,000 people that would come, yes, during that time and I try to imagine that many people coming for homecoming down there in the grove. And so they continued that tradition year after year and then eventually they move it up. So the Grove is down by the river and then they move it up to the town, the center of town. And so that's where our township hall and everything is at, and so folks started calling it Homecoming because by this time, people had left and then they would come back for the event and so everybody just started calling it Homecoming. But we've been doing it for a hundred and this year will be 147 years.

Kristin: Wow.

Luecreasea: Yeah, and so just family that can make it they come back, we know it's that last weekend in July, the hottest possible time. I was like "Oh not hot enough? Okay let's just wait till it's hot enough." We have vendors that set up in the park, we have people who come down and participate in the activities and we've been doing it for 147 years.

Ben: Wow.

Luecreasea: Yeah.

Kristin: What other events do you have during the year?

Luecreasea: So we have our, excuse me, our Chautauqua that we do and in conjunction with the Nicodemus Historical Society and so the Chautauqua she puts on different port-- we portray different folks in the past. And so like I've played my great great grandmother Emma Williams and Edward P. McCabe and W.H. Sayers and so people W.L. Sayers, excuse me, Chautauqua. We do different activity-- or different events during the year for the park service but Chautauqua, oh my goodness, pioneer days, and so that was when they really set up Nicodemus and so those are some of the different things we do.

Kristin: Okay.

Ben: Now for those who haven't visited Nicodemus or know of its history, who are some of the notable figures to come out of that town?

Luecreasea: Oh my goodness. So W.L. Sayers, he was a the first county-- black county attorney in the state of Kansas. We have Verl Schwitzer, he played football at K-State and then he also played for the Green Bay Packers. We have the Kansas Comet Sayers, Gail Sayers, he didn't grow up in Nicodemus, but his grandparents were from Nicodemus and so he played at KU and then he played for the Chicago Bears. We have Angela who's a whirlwind and she's just going and going and going trying to keep Nicodemus alive. And if you guys are listening forgive me if I forget somebody's name but Ben put me on the spot on other notables, yeah. Edward P. McCabe, he was the first black auditor for the state of Kansas, yes. Voted in for that. So yeah.

Ben: That's cool. No and when I was up there 'cuz I was working with Dan, another one of your Rangers

Luecreasea: Yes.

Ben: And we did a little baseball thing back in October,

Luecreasea: Yeah, that was nice, yeah.

Ben: But-- and we were talking a little bit about Satchel Paige.

Luecreasea: Oh yes.

Ben: I know he's not from Nicodemus but played there. Was that at one of the Homecoming celebrations or?

Luecreasea: So I don't think it was at the homecoming celebration, but they did come out and play against our team and so the folklore is that Freddy Schwitzer, now Freddy was a phenomenal athlete, and they said he could have played baseball but back then you didn't leave your family to go play baseball. You know, you stayed and worked and so he could have played with the Negro League, but they say that he hit a home run off of Satchel Page. And I'm like...

Kristin: It happened, it happened!

Luecreasea: Okay, okay.

Ben: We'll say it happened.

Luecreasea: Right, was that a foul ball tip you got you got a piece of it and it's a home run? I need video evidence proof.

Ben: Yeah, that's awesome. So sort of bringing it back to Fort Larned, what are some of the ties that you see in between the two sites?

Luecreasea: Definitely. So Buffalo Soldiers, yes. And then I was able to come out here, so when I started off earlier in my career as a Park Guide, I would come out here and be a laundress and work as a laundress out here. And so it's interesting hearing George talk about the black laundress and how they made, he told me I never knew this, cuz I didn't do any research...

Kristin: They were wealthy.

Luecreasea: Yeah the black laundresses were, yeah, they made the most money, and I was like well okay then. So I thought that was very interesting. So that connection and then the Buffalo Soldier connection is pretty cool between Larned and Nicodemus, yeah.

Ben: Were there any Buffalo Soldiers that ended up settling in Nicodemus?

Luecreasea: Yes, yes, two: Samuel Garland and then Nathaniel Moore Jr. He was-- yes, those are our noted Buffalo Soldiers, but of course we have military from, yeah.

Ben: Yeah, no and you were able to come out this last summer to help us filming for the window to the past.

Luecreasea: Window to the past, that was pretty cool.

Ben: As of right now we're still working on it but hopefully this next year it'll be in the museum, so we're looking towards the laundress quarters and of course representing the Black laundresses there too which is really cool.

Luecreasea: Yeah that was really cool, really cool. I thought that was very interesting that they got paid the most.

Ben: Yeah, yeah no, they were they were well off. I know there's um I'm sure it happened with the Black laundresses too but I know there's an account of a sergeant who would be paid about $20 a month who was married to a laundress, so she's making up to $40 a month, and their daughter was also a laundress, so they could be pulling in close to $100 a month.

Luecreasea: Oh wow, they was living fat on the hog as my grandma would say.

Ben: So and like we were saying too that's the story of everyday people. I mean they're not-- don't really get any mention in history books, but they're part of history nonetheless.

Luecreasea: That's cool.

Ben: Yeah. Well was there anything else you'd like to add?

Luecreasea: No this is great, Thank you for having me and this is great that you guys are doing this and you know hopefully folks that are listening to it you guys come on down and check us out in Nicodemus.

Ben: Absolutely. We're just a two-hour drive from Fort Larned. So if you're hitting one you might as well hit the other.

Luecreasea: Yep, yeah. Hey we get that all the time do people say when I tell them I was like tell Ben I said "Hi" down from Nicodemus?

Ben: Yeah.

Luecreasea: Yeah, okay because we get that too they're like yeah "Ben said to tell you hi." I'm like okay.

Ben: Like I said there's not a lot of connections, I mean as Nicodemus was coming up Fort Larned was dying down. But it is cool to connect those bits of history, so.

Luecreasea: Yeah.

Ben: So yeah, thank you for coming on, sharing your story, and hopefully get some folks to go up to Nicodemus.

Luecreasea: Right on.

Ben: Have a good one.

Luecreasea: Thank you.

Ben: Also joining me is Liz Rasmussen.

Ben: Well that was another wonderful interview, I always love talking to Luecreasea and hearing her passion about Nicodemus and the National Park Service. One of the big things that stuck out to me is her ability to connect any visitor of Nicodemus to the story of Nicodemus. I mean that is what all of us interpreters strive for is connecting the person to the resource the, visitors to the resource, but the fact that one of the most common questions is: "Is there any descendants still living here?" And she's able to say that "Yeah and you're looking at one." is just super cool. That she's able to that quickly connect people to the resource.

Kristin: I mean yeah, what a unique perspective she has. I think she said she's a sixth generation there. So her family has been there from the very beginning and she's now there, so you know it's just her family's been a part of Nicodemus from the beginning to the present. And you know, how many historic sites have anyone who can say that? I don't know, are there any out there? Let us know. But yeah, what a unique perspective she has and it's so fun to visit with her to hear about everything that she's seen in her lifetime there.

Liz: I think it's great that she said her great great great grandparents helped start Nicodemus and then she was going through school and then came-- ended up coming back to Nicodemus where her grandparents helped start it, that's really cool. That was one of my favorite parts of the interview.

Kristin: Yes and again, you know her experience I hope will inspire other people to go into the Park Service 'cuz when you have a passion about history or a particular place you know, what better way than to honor that than to go into service to share it with others, definitely.

Ben: Yeah, and she has the ability especially with how her mom was involved with getting it to be a permanently preserved site, she had a front row seat to the stories that were being told and she's able to be that-- able to have that information and be able to pass that on to the next generation too.

Kristin: Absolutely. We visited a little bit about the interview, about her experience on 9/11 and I mean we could talk about it for an hour, but my heart just went out to her when she, you know, she's a young Park Ranger and her first day on the job and at a historic site and there's a historic event taking place, you know, and just what a crazy way to begin your career on a day like that.

Ben: Yeah, I can't even imagine that. No and what's really cool about working at Fort Larned is our proximity to Nicodemus. It is a 2-hour drive, but we are the closest National Park to them and we do quite a bit of things-- we do quite a few things together and we help support them, they help support us. So it's really fun to go up there, I've gone up for the last 2 or 3 years for their Homecoming event, and that's really cool to see everyone, it really is just a big family there and it's almost like a big family reunion every year. And I think that is the focus, but you do also have the history there of what's come before. And so it's fun to be a part of that and help those who have already a connection to the site, to help them see some of that, because they might not know, maybe they're just tagging along with their family of "Hey this is what we do every year." But then to show the national significance of where they came from and see the passion in their own experience, that's really cool to see too.

Kristin: I think it's true of both parks that they're both kind of an unknown. It's not like there was some significant Civil War battle you know that everyone knows about. I think she was saying that you know 30%, 40% of the visitors who come through there actually know the story of Nicodemus and I would say you know that's probably true of Fort Larned too, you know. Until you are here and you get to experience the story, it's you know, nothing that you probably learned at school, it's just you know, and so it's so important to share sites like that and parks like these with people just to get the history out there to people who've never heard it before.

Ben: Yeah and that's sort of my challenge to people who their own exper-- their primary experience with history is from high school and maybe a little bit of college is to go experience some of these sites for yourself because as we've been talking about this season, it's really just the story of everyday people. And while yeah, there are certain significant dates and certain significant names, when you get right down to it, it's the people who settled Nicodemus and the challenges they faced in doing that. And then there's the people who lived and worked here at the fort and the challenges of coming to the fort and I mean you're-- there's no FaceTime or cell phones or anything like that, that you're pretty well disconnected from everybody that you know back home. And so you have to really create your own community in that sense.

Kristin: Yeah and I love how she emphasized the fact that those people were so tough and had grit, which is another thing that I think we can share between the two parks is the people who were living here were tough human beings. You know, the things that they-- their-- what their daily life consisted of and that they truly were extraordinary people who had a job to do, were trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, so.

Liz: I liked her story about the baseball, Who was it that hit the home run off of?

Ben: Freddy Schwitzer hit the home run off of Satchel Page, allegedly. We're going to go with it.

Kristin: Yeah.

Liz: I-- that was fun to listen to, the way she told that story, I loved it.

Ben: Yeah. And again that connection to history, and that's a thing too like in going to these historic sites. Yeah these people were tough, but what decisions led up to making the decision to come out west to really forsake pretty much everyone you know? I mean you might be able to communicate via mail, but that's it. So what led to those decisions and what would lead you to those similar decisions of, I need to pick up and totally transplant myself?

Kristin: Well it's just an extraordinary story that there's only 10 years' time-- between the time that you were enslaved to the time that you were a land owner. I mean it's just an incredible story.

Ben: Like you said too, both Fort Larned and Nicodemus are kind of hidden gems and I know here at the fort, my experiences, most everyone who comes through here says more people should know about it. And I think the same goes for Nicodemus too that a lot of those visiting there it's, I mean it's a relatively unknown story and so to be able to not experience it firsthand, but to experience the stories firsthand, of just the determination of these everyday people that made a way for us to have the life we have now.

Kristin: Absolutely, yeah.

Ben: Is really cool.

Liz: I haven't been in Nicodemus, but what I like about Fort Larned is everything is so well preserved. You don't necessarily need a tour guide to bring you through the buildings because it tells it story on its own. Everything is so detailed and so well preserved, it tells its story on its own.

Ben: And thankfully we're getting there with Nicodemus.

Liz: Good.

Ben: The Park Service just got the Baptist Church I believe this last year, so we're working on restoration with that. When I started work here about 5 years ago, they were finishing up work on the AME Church. And so, I saw pictures of what it looked like beforehand And it's a little of what the Baptist church looks like right now, but if you look at it today you could hardly tell that it was ever in disrepair. So I'm really looking forward to being able to see the end product of that someday and hopefully more of the structures that are interpreted there being managed by the Park Service as well. Well we hope you enjoyed listening to this episode as much as we enjoyed being a part of it. We hope you join us next month for our next episode and we hope you join us for the rest of the season. Until next time, have a good one.

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Guest: Luecreasea Horne Hosts: Ben Long, Kristin Keith, and Liz Rasmussen This episode, we talk with Luecreasea Horne, a Park Ranger at Nicodemus National Historic Site and a sixth generation descendent of the original settlers of Nicodemus. Join us as we talk about the history of Nicodemus and its connection to Fort Larned!

April 5, 2025

3. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Episode 3 - Dr. Doug Scott

Transcript

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Dr. Doug Scott: Somewhat jokingly, my peers refer to me as the godfather of battlefield archaeology. Then John Albright from his-- as a historian from the Denver Service Center, was brought in to do the furnishing studies and he found in the archives the documents that said that all this stuff was being shipped into Fort Larned. And then the recovery of the personal artifacts I think is really fascinating.

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Dr. Doug Scott about his experience in his extensive career as an archaeologist at Fort Larned National Historic Site and countless other sites.

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Ben Long: Well welcome Dr. Scott, we're glad to have you on. I'm really looking forward to hearing some of your experiences and I know our listeners are too. So, as we get started, why don't we-- why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your experience over the years, your experience at Fort Larned, all of that.

Doug: When I first started at Fort Larned in 1972, I was a young graduate student at the University of Colorado. The original archaeologist in, at the time I think it was Region 2, was a guy named Dr. Wilford Logan, and he had called my advisor saying, "Hey I understand you've got a couple of students who are interested in historical archaeology. Well, we've got a couple of projects that our people can't do at the Midwest Archaeological Center". And said, "Could you-- do you recommend these folks doing it?" And Dr. Bernest, David Bernest said, "Yes" and he put David Gillio, who was another graduate student on the Fort Union Trading Post project, and me on Fort Larned because I'm from-- originally from Independence, Kansas, so I spoke Kansas pretty well. I did what it today would be called, Cultural Resource Management but it then was called Restoration Archaeology, and we started with buildings 1 and 2, the Barracks. Well, I worked at Fort Larned as a graduate student 1972, 1973, and 1974, and then I completed my master's degree in '73 and continued working on my PhD and was able to use Fort Larned-- the information that came out of Fort Larned with this restoration archaeology to actually complete my master's and my PhD. So it was a fortuitous situation where there was more information coming out of the ground than just about the architecture and the artifacts of daily life there that allowed me to move ahead on things. And in August of '74, I took a job with the Oklahoma Historical Society as what then they called a curator, today would be a site manager, for Fort Towson Historic Site in southeast Oklahoma. Stayed there until late 1975 and then transferred to the Department of Interior, Bureau of Land Management where I worked in Southwest Colorado for 8 years or a little more than, and then moved to the National Park Service at the Midwest Archaeological Center where I completed my career in 2006 with 31 years of service.

Ben: That's awesome.

Doug: So-- and in the in the meantime I continued my interest in historical archaeology and in military archaeology particularly of the American frontier with the opportunity in 1984 to work at Little Bighorn Battlefield and kind of proud to say the techniques we used there, the results became rather standard for use in battlefield and conflict archaeology as it's become known since then. And somewhat jokingly my peers refer to me as the "Godfather of Battlefield Archaeology." And I like the term "Godfather." But it's just been a great thing since then. So, I've worked on over 60 battlefields and conflict sites, mostly in the United States, since then, I have done some-- volunteered on some projects in Europe, in England in particular. I also got into Forensic Archaeology, the recovery of human remains from conflict situations for humanitarian and human rights work. I did-- was secunded if you will, from the Park Service to the war crimes tribunals for former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda. And then-- and did some other human rights work as well, so it's been a long career. Since I've retired, I have stayed just as busy doing teaching at the University of Nebraska and now at Colorado Mesa University on occasion, doing research projects, trying to get grants, doing a variety of things. And most recently I've been working-- assisting the National Park Service in the northeast region at Minute Man National Historical Park on the first day of the American Revolution, where we've been teaching metal detecting techniques and also I've been doing analysis along with a colleague of mine named Joel Bowie on the bullets from the first day of the Revolution that have been found along the British retreat line. So, you know, again, I stay busy and it's a good thing.

Ben: Yeah, that's awesome. Now one documentary that I know has featured you was talking about the archaeology you did at Little Bighorn and how it went into the ballistics, and finding out where each of the soldiers were, and where they were firing and that must have been a really cool project to work on.

Doug: It was one of those projects where we did not know for sure what we would find when we started there and it just-- it was incredible what happened in the first hour of that project with metal detecting, systematically going over the area we'd recovered over 100 objects. And by the end of the time, we were done we had over 5,000. Now that took several years of investigation to do, but the concepts of what we did was, it was pattern recognition, and cartridge cases and bullets scattered all over the area plotted, what we call piece plotting, just literally plotting everything precisely where it was found individually rather than as a-- some-- as we do in normal archaeology, digging rectangular or square holes, you often times lump things from that particular excavation unit together from whatever provenience it happens to be, however it's established. But we literally piece plotted every single object, and by itself that was interesting, but what we did do and what I did was apprentice myself to the firearms examiners at the Nebraska State Patrol where I was in Lincoln, Nebraska at the time. And learned the process of firearms identification and examination. And it requires a specialized microscope and such, but we were a-- because of the preservation at Little Bighorn, we were able to look at the firing pin impressions on the cartridge cases and identify individual firearms and multiple cartridges that were fired from the same firearm. And then that way, we could trace the people as they moved-- or at least the gun as it moved across and around that battlefield. And that was the first time that had ever been done on an archaeological site.

Ben: That's super cool.

Kristin Keith: I think we could have an entire season just interviewing you about all your different projects. But going back to the very beginning of your career, in the early 70's here at Fort Larned, did you have specific things you were looking for, or were you just asked to come out here and see what you could find, or was there a specific project?

Doug: Well, there were scopes of work identified for Fort Larned in the times that I was there, 1972, '73, '74, and that-- those work plans were established by the Denver Service Center in concert with the park as part of the restoration of the buildings there. And our goals were, you know, to find artifacts related to daily life, that would help on interpretation. Another goal was to find evidence of the missing architectural features, such as the porches on the front of Buildings 1 and 2, the Barracks, and later on as we moved around the different buildings, was we're literally to look for architectural-- missing architectural elements. And-- such as foundations of the porches, or piers for the porches, and various things like that. It-- over the 3 years I was there doing stuff intently-- intensely, the scopes changed a little bit to focus a little bit more on recovery of artifacts for interpretation, and to do-- look at several buildings, sites, that were no longer in existence like the Sutler's Store and the privies behind the Officers' Quarters, various things like that. Much of it was intended to mitigate the damage being done by the construction, so that was by and large what we were after and why we did this. But at the same time, there were opportunities to go a little further than that and look at some things that-- such as the privy locations behind the Officers' Quarters that would be interpreted later on and by building a structure over those sites to give that feel for that whole area as to what life was like in the in the 1870s there at Fort Larned, so there, that in part resulted in recovery of quite a bit of information. One of the things I did do-- Yeah, I'm sorry go ahead.

Kristin: I was just going to ask you if there was anything unexpected that you found, something you weren't even thinking.

Doug: Every day. Every day we were in the field. When we start digging, you never know what you're going to find. You have expectations, of course, and plans and we-- I worked with good historians, John Albright, Tom Lukey, George of course, George Elmore, and we had a really good working relationship that that carried on for many, many years. One of the kind of funny stories is when we first started on the Barracks, and as you're probably aware, they were used as barns. It was the largest barn in Kansas, and it was really a remarkable building before they brought it back in to be two separate buildings. And the architect, the historic architect who was in charge of the building plans for the restoration of those two structures at the Denver Service Center, I met with those folks, and he said, I'm sorry I can't remember his name right now, but he said, "I know there were fireplaces there and I want you to find the fireplace foundations. Now we know that the inside of those buildings the floors are all gone, and they've been used as animal, for animal husbandry, cows and horses and the like and so it'll be a lot of messed up ground service in there, but those fireplace foundations will be there." And from the historic photographs we could tell where the chimneys were, so we did look for them, and we found no evidence whatsoever of any fireplace foundations and they should have been fairly deep if they were there. And I suggested to the architect that no, they never had those maybe they were using cast iron stoves. He said, "Oh no no no no, they were using fire-- they had fireplaces, we have to have fireplaces." And I kept saying "No I don't think there's any evidence for that." And especially in the kitchen areas of the of the barracks there was-- you could see where the flues were for a cast iron stove, there, you know, and they're still there today. And I kept saying that and they said, "No no no." Then John Albright from his-- as a historian from the Denver Service Center was brought in to do the furnishing studies and he found in the archives the documents that said that all this stuff was being shipped into Fort Larned for the construction of those various buildings, all the woodwork and doors and glass for the windows and this that and the other thing and cast iron wood stoves. And so he and I had a good laugh about that, and the architect never would speak to us again.

Ben: That's awesome. Now--

Doug: That's not quite literally true, but it's a story I like to tell.

Ben: Yeah, exactly. Now I know especially for archaeology, privies are some of the gold mines because that was not just a privy, it was their trash pit. Was there anything you remember of note that you found in the Officers' Privies?

Doug: Yes. They were, they were informative. A couple of them had been dug out and reused by the farm workers during the Frizzel period, so we didn't-- we had a lot of interesting information from the early 1900s and up to the 1930s, I think when they probably put indoor plumbing in. But the South Officers' Quarters, I believe that's number seven, had an intact privy, a very shallow one, but it was intact. And out-- a lot of domestic stuff came out of there. There were combs, a variety of bottles, as you might expect, and, you know, domestic trash. I've forgotten exactly, but bone that-- from various cuts of meat, chicken and beef particularly, possibly buffalo. But of real interest was-- there were some women's combs and doll parts suggesting children had been there, which was interesting from a point of view of having a family. From the male side of things, one of the most interesting things was a group of material that related to scientific experimentation. There were test tubes, there was blood cupping glassware, a variety of-- there was even a fragment of bulbs, rubber bulb, probably for the cupping and a variety of other things that suggested this individual who had, at least somebody who had been there, was interested in scientific studies. The most logical person would have been one of the Surgeons who had been at the post. And so that's a direct set of evidence of a person who was at the post, it could only be one of the three surgeons that we know of, Forwood, Woodhall, or Cowdry, and it said something about that. And I think, I can't remember which one it was, but one of them ended up in the Surgeon General's Office at one point and really had a strong scientific bent. Whether that was his material or not I don't know, but it does add to that story that life on the frontier wasn't just about dealing with wagon trains coming through or Native Americans either in treaty negotiations or annuities or conflict, but that there are other things happening out there that suggested that these people were learning about the natural and cultural history of that part of the world. As a young man, it was very-- I was very impressed by that and I was really excited by what I was doing, so I do remember a lot of it. And the other thing is that after I retired I asked the manager at the Midwest Archaeological Center, I made him an offer he couldn't refuse so to speak, I said I would take all of the information that all of the archaeologists have done and put together for Larned and write an overview and assessment of the park work there. And it's quite remarkable how much work has been done not only by myself but Earl Munger, or going back the days of Jackson W. Moore, "Smokey" Moore, as a park service archaeologist in the in the '60s, 1960s then later on, people at the Midwest Center, William Lees from the Kansas State Historical Society and a few others out there. Anne Voser who was Midwest Archaeological Center, Steve Devor, a number of other people, Jan Dial Jones who did the restoration archaeology on the-- on building 10 the Blockhouse. And she did just a fabulous job with that. Bruce Jones who did the work over at the camp on Pawnee Fork, the Cheyenne Village over there, and he was with Kansas State Historical Society at the time but later ended up and retired from the Midwest Center. But there were thousands of square meters of excavation done plus geophysics and all that, and it's pro-- Fort Larned is probably one of the best studied frontier forts in the United States in my opinion. As I say, a lot of stuff came out of there, and a lot more to a lot more to learn.

Phil Grossardt: An event you won't want to miss is this year's Mess and Muster, a collaborative event with the Fort Larned Old Guard and Fort Larned National Historic Site. This year's theme is: Defending the Frontier. Join us on Saturday April 26th as we explore what the soldiers experience was both in garrison and in the field and the tools, they use to accomplish their mission. The evening's program will look at original examples of historic firearms used at Fort Larned all programs are free. A bagged lunch and a catered dinner will be offered: lunch is $12 per person and dinner is $20 per person. A silent auction will also be held at the evening's program. For more information, go to triple www.ftlarnedoldguard.com. Have you ever wanted to experience history for yourself? We're always looking for volunteers to help us present the history of Fort Larned's firearms and artillery. if you're interested in joining the Fort Larned Rifle Corp and Canon Crew historic weapons program, this year's mandatory training will be held at the Fort Saturday, May 3rd and will be an all-day training. For more information, call the Fort at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov. Our biggest event of the year is just around the corner! join us on May 24th through the 26th for our annual Memorial Day weekend event. Experience this historic fort as it comes to life with the sights, sounds, and smells of a frontier post from 160 years ago. Firing demonstrations, blacksmith demonstrations, programs, and more will be sure to educate and entertain the whole family. Come for one day or all three and experience history for yourself. For more information call us at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov.

Doug: One of my funny stories if you-- if I may be, if you allow

Ben: Absolutely.

Doug: I-- one of our early projects there, and I can't remember which year it was just offhand, I think it was '73, but we were looking at building number four, the commissary/quarter-- or well the old quartermaster storehouse/commissary, but there was a shed attached to the back based on a photograph as you probably are aware. And we would look for it, and we couldn't find it there was no foundation, there was just nothing there. Subsequently, the very last project I did for the Park Service before retiring in 2006, I-- actually it would have been 200-- late 2005, because I retired in the 2nd of January 2006, not that I'm I can remember every detail. But the-- I was sent back down with a couple of people, Tom Theson and Missy Bayer, and we were to go back and look for that foundation one more time. And also do some other stuff around the back of that building on the on the south side to-- because there was some restoration work going to be done on the foundation. So I had to dig the same holes up that I had dug-- that my crew had dug in the 1970s in 2005, so I ended up where I started as they say.

Ben: That's awesome.

Kristin: Over the span of your career, what was your favorite location where you--

Doug: Oh, that's hard to-- that is really hard to say. I've been so many places and done so many things and all of them have been interesting. It-- to me it is all about the data. It's recovering the information that helps us understand the past better. If I have any place that that's really close to my heart, oddly enough it's Fort Larned, Kansas.

Kristin: We were hoping you'd say that.

Doug: I love going back there, I love coming back there it's a-- to see how it's changed, to see new interpretation every time I drop by, I don't get there very often anymore since my family's all deceased and not no longer around Kansas. It is really a great place to visit and I think it's an incredibly underrated resource in the Park Service. So-- and you've got the Santa Fe Trail ruts nearby, you've got the Pawnee Village, you've got so much going on there to tell a story about people passing through that part of the world of homesteading that part of the world that it truly is a remarkable place. And it all, you know, the history of Fort Larned itself after the military and the fact it became a ranch and the Frizzel property, who was an important person in Kansas history, it is a wonderful, wonderful place. My second one choice would be of course Little Bighorn. But-- and but there you go, you got Cuter coming to Fort Larned in 1867, I also worked at Washita, I helped find that site and for the 1868, and then I, you know, did all that work at the Little Bighorn, so I've been following Custer around the Great Plains for like, you know, 50 years now.

Ben: Yeah. Not hard to do since he touched it seems like every corner of the West.

Doug: Yeah well, he certainly got over the Central and Northern Plains a lot and as they say, he only lost one battle.

Ben: That's the most important one. No, so, what connections have you found over the years between Fort Larned and a lot of these other sites that you've worked at? Beyond just say Custer and things like that.

Doug: Well yeah, the personalities being the historic characters that were many of these places are, you know, time after time are the same people moving around. But it it's about the archaeological record, the record of construction techniques, which change from place to place but are still the Army plans for particularly 1860s and 70s and 8-- well up to the 1900s, are all standardized and you can see that over and over and over again in many of these military installations where I've had to work or been advisee on or whatever. And so you get to see that, and then the recovery of the personal artifacts I think is really fascinating. You know, whether it's a, you know, a bottle of-- that held perfume or some medicate-- patent medicine and we saw plenty of that at Larned, as well as again like a comb, a ladies comb or a lice comb that would could have been used by anybody at that time period. All those things bring the individual back to me as part of the history of a place, that puts the people back on that landscape to me. And that is an important part of doing archaeology, is not just the larger patterns, but is to see the individual people, even if you can't name them, you can see their quirks and what they did. There's a good example from behind the barracks, I think number one there, we were doing some trenching behind that in '72, and trying to figure out, you know, if there had been any porches or pathways or anything like that back there. And outside that kitchen door, on the west side I believe, there was a cluster of material out there, and it was carved bullets and smoking-- clay smoking pipes those kaolin and white kaolin clay pipes, variety of other things, very personal objects. Which just suggests that's where men were whiling away their leisure time, off duty time, in the back. Who would have thought? That yet-- you know, we sure-- we know people were doing those kind of things, not very far from the well, and not far from the kitchen door. So-- but you can visualize guys probably in undress uniforms or maybe even their shirt sleeves out there, you know, sitting around, talking, smoking a pipe, chewing tobacco and whiling away their time in-- with doing rather idle things, but keeping their hands busy.

Ben: Yeah. You know, those free time things that as a living historian/reenactor that I see guys do all the time no too. And I can definitely see from doing living history and reenacting at the Fort I can definitely see that as an area to sort of congregate in the evening. So that's really cool.

Doug: Well it-- particularly in the summer, would be on the North side out of the out of the sun, in the shade, I wouldn't want to be there in the winter necessarily. But summer, spring, fall, it'd be pretty nice out there, I would think.

Ben: Yeah.

Kristin: No, I just want to thank you for all your work you've done here over the years to help create this story and keep this story going for us.

Doug: Well it is a special place for a lot of reasons and for me, personally. And I've been privileged to be a part of that history there and I am very proud of being able to do that, and it's wonderful to see the continued development of the site and the story.

Ben: Yeah no, it's a cool place with a cool story and you definitely, if you get a chance to, our new museum exhibits I think you'd really enjoy because there's some cool bits in there.

Doug: Yeah, I haven't seen the new exhibits, at least not all of them anyway, so got to get back there again one of these days, find a good excuse.

Ben: But yeah, no, so thank you again for coming on and sharing a bit of your story and how you've helped tell the story of the Fort here, and hope you have a wonderful day.

Doug: Alright, thank you.

Ben: Also joining me is Liz Rasmussen.

Ben: Well, that was a fantastic interview. I really enjoyed talking with Doug and his experiences in the Park Service and outside of the Park Service as well. Really my favorite part in talking with him was just the amount of stuff that he's found over the years, not only here at the Fort, but at Little Bighorn and the countless other places he's been as well. And the fact that by the time they were done with a Little Bighorn project they had 5,000 artifacts that they had found. That was crazy to me.

Kristin: I mean what a dream job to have. Just an incredible life of finding artifacts that tell story after story after story. It is such an amazing career he has had and we're so lucky to have had him here at Fort Larned to help, in the beginning, help us figure out what our story was and how we were going to tell it with what he found.

Liz: His job is so important in preserving Larned and making it, for the visitors, trying to make it seem like what it would be like back in the day, and how the living quarters would look, and how the store would look, all of that is so very important for visitors that come through and want to learn more about Fort Larned.

Ben: Yeah, I can't imagine the Squad Room with a fireplace now. Like the fact that he-- they were able to find that, him and John Albright, were able to find that through archaeology and through historic information and historic records were able to find out that, no, it wasn't fireplaces like we originally thought it might have been, but it was cast iron stoves. Like that that just changes the whole layout of every room basically.

Kristin: Yeah, so when people think of archaeology, I think what first might come to someone's mind are objects. But, you know, he was talking about finding architecture which was something, you know, I hadn't given a lot of thought to, but you know it's so important, you know, when he-- when we're trying to put together what this place looked like and how, you know, daily life, how it was run just, you know, making sure that the architecture of all the buildings is correct.

Liz: To piggyback off Kristin, we don't have very many pictures, so having him find the architecture part helps build that picture.

Ben: Absolutely. Yeah, and that was, I mean there's a few stories throughout the years. There's one that George told, so the episode one of last season, when we were putting the porch back on the Shops Building, there was argument between-- there was I guess archaeological evidence for eight posts on the porch roof and also ten, and so there's that-- just, I mean, those are minor details for a lot of people, but I mean, if we're trying to recreate this thing exactly how it looked, that kind of information is crucial.

Kristin: Sure, I also loved how unexpectedly he was helping build the story of civilians that were out here, not just the military side of it. But, you know, when you're digging through a privy which is an outhouse in just in case someone's wondering, you know, a lot of the objects he found had to do with women and children, you know, so there is that definite evidence that wasn't just soldiers living out here, but there were, you know, lots of civilians. And then I also loved the discoveries he made that showed what the doctors were doing out here, not just taking care of medical needs, but the scientific study, you know, they were involved in with wildlife and plant life, you know, and those other kinds of things that they had to report back. It was neat to have found evidence about that also.

Liz: I liked listening to them talk about when they were digging up the privies and they found the one that hadn't been dug up yet by the farmers, and it had the science experiment materials either around or in it when he dug it up there was test tubes and a couple other things, that was interesting. As well as the doll pieces that were evidence that there was in fact children and the women's combs as long-- as well as the men's combs.

Ben: Yeah, and that's-- I mean so many times we say things like "If only these walls can talk", but these walls really can talk, you just have to look in the right place, and archaeology a lot of times is that place. For me one of the most significant discoveries was all of the litter and pipes and things like that that they found out behind the barracks of like, yeah this is where guys hung out quite a bit, like you can-- I mean isolated incidents of a pipe here or part of a comb or maybe a button there, that's cool, but when you have this concentration of these items that were often discarded you can tell that that's where people were and that can change your story of what life was like.

Kristin: Which again, is just telling the story of average ordinary people in their daily lives. Nothing real exciting but things that a visitor can definitely identify with. You know, what were they doing in their free time in the evening? So yeah, it's a neat part of the story, definitely.

Liz: You know, they didn't have TV and they didn't necessarily have a lot of music, I think we have two pianos maybe, one or two pianos and that was their form of entertainment. So getting-- preserving the different activities they could do and putting that in the different rooms for the visitors to see kind of paints a picture of like Kristin said, what they were doing and how they were spending their free time.

Ben: Too, I mean, you might look in diaries and journals and things like that that different people kept, but there might not be mention of some of these things. Like how significant was it that there was science experiments going on out here, or that there were X amount of kids out here, or this is where we hung out in the evening. Like how significant would it have to be in order to be written down, for one? For another, are those stories still preserved? And so, while primary documents are important and are important to study, I think pairing them with archaeology, you're able to form a more full picture and I think that's a lot of what they found too at the Battle of Little Bighorn because we don't have a lot of primary documentation of, "Oh so and so was here and then moved here and then went there." But with the work that Dr. Scott was able to do, along with those that were working with him, were to really put together this complete picture of-- or more complete picture of the battle and be able to tell a better story because of it.

Kristin: Absolutely. Dr. Scott, "The Godfather of Battlefield Archaeology".

Ben: I like that title for him.

Liz: I wish I could pick his brain. I wish I could see everything he's seen, it'd be really cool to go back with him when he was digging all this up and looking at everything and pointing out what the object was and I would probably stand there like, "Are you sure that's what that is?" And you're like yeah.

Kristin: Yeah and I loved, I think I asked him if, you know, he found some-- anything that was surprising or that he hadn't counted on and he said every single day. You know, so just what a fascinating way to spend your life, digging in the dirt, you know, and finding all of these neat objects that really tell a cool story.

Ben: And being able to be that person that uncovers that story, which I'm sure he has an appreciation for, himself, especially within the amount of work that he's done over the years.

Kristin: Definitely.

Ben: Well, we hope you enjoyed listening to this episode as much as we enjoyed being a part of it. We hope you join us next month for our next episode and we hope you join us for the rest of the season. Until next time, have a good one.

Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. Join us next month as we talk with Luecreasea Horne a Park Ranger at Nicodemus National Historic Site and a descendant of some of the original settlers of Nicodemus. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, share footsteps with your friends and family, and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and X, and as always, enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website www.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast.

[Music fades]

Guest: Dr. Doug Scott Hosts: Ben Long, Kristin Keith, Liz Rasmussen Join us as we talk with Dr. Doug Scott, a career archeologist who has worked the National Park Service as well as other agencies as he has sought to uncover the stories of those in the past. Dr. Scott's work has taken place not only within the United States, but internationally as well.

March 22, 2025

2. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Episode 2 - Judy Readding

Transcript

[Music swells]

Judy Readding: But growing up here was it was it was wonderful. We had the Perez's on the south and Mama and Papa Perez and all their kids. What was funny is you'd be here, you know, just doing your thing and somebody'd walk up-- like I said we always had people coming in and out, so I never really thought much about it. They'd walk up and wonder where the fort was. So, I like it now. It's nice and it's good that it's preserved.

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: the Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Judy Readding about her experiences on the Fort Larned Ranch before it became a National Park Service site.

Ben Long: Welcome Judy, glad to have you here. As we get started why don't we-- why don't you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your personal history, your connection to this place and things like that.

Judy: Well, I moved here when I was 8 months old, they tell me, I don't remember it. My mother graduated and father graduated from K-State and came here, my father to run the ranch. So I basically was here until I graduated from high school.

Ben: Nice.

Kristin Keith: And you were third generation here?

Judy: Yes. E.E. Frizell, my great-grandfather was the first, and then Edward DuMont, E.D. Frizell, and then my father Robert Reed Frizell lived here, and they were the last. He's the one that turned it into or got it started to State Park and then National Park. So, my sister Jane, my brother Larry, and we were the first three kids here. Then when my mother died, I had two half-brothers that were also here for a while. Now the youngest Neil who lives in Great Bend now was only here for a little while cuz by then we'd moved to Panama to grow coffee.

Ben: I've heard only a little bit about that bit of story. How long were you in Panama?

Judy: I lived there two years.

Ben: Okay.

Judy: And taught school there and then traveled a bit and then came back to Kansas to Aspen actually. The best time of my life was in Colorado. But growing up here was-- it was it was wonderful. We had the Perez's on the south, and Mama and Papa Perez and all their kids. And by the way they never learned to speak English cuz po-- Spanish cuz Papa wouldn't let them. So, there were the Perez's over here and then over here were the Douglass's. They were a Mormon family. Both families came with my great-grandfather, I think. Papa Perez, I think, you know, came across and started working early on. And then Clyde Douglas, I'm not quite sure when he came but he was there my whole life. And Donnie and his brothers and sisters all lived here too.

Kristin: So, do you think your life here at the ranch prepared you for living abroad then at all?

Judy: I get-- I mean we always had people in our house. My dad was just one that would bring home stray anybody's. We had a lot of people come and live with us. We had people from Panama even before we moved there. Like kids that would come and live with us and go to school here. So, you know, we kind of had a different upbringing, truthfully. But it was always very, I mean there were no-- nobody ever told you when to come in. You know, Donnie and I just kind of roamed. We'd ride the horses went to El Dor School. My dad went there all of his eight years, same teacher, 35 years.

Ben: Wow.

Judy: Lucinda Reede, it was-- she was something. And I learned to read when I was in kindergarten. It's all sex appeal. I learned to read because Johnny Lewis was so cute, and he was in third grade. And you got to sit with whoever you could read with, so I learned to read real fast. But it was a great way to have an education. You know, now when they talk about combining classes and I just have to laugh because that's how we, you know, that's how we were raised.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: And that's a whole story in itself. The parties we used to have out there. It was a fabulous education. And so, both Donnie and I went whole eight years there and then we went into Laned to high school.

Ben: How big was the high school when you were going there?

Judy: Numbers I'm not good with. Honestly, I'm not quite sure, I think our class was maybe 150, but I wouldn't swear to it. Not a whole lot of us left anymore. But yeah, it was, you know, it was a good way to grow up. And when I left was just-- when I went to college, they were leaving getting ready to go to Panama. So, I never came back really after college.

Kristin: So, you've talked about being here and just roaming free and--

Judy: Pretty much.

Kristin: Some of your memories from school. What's one of your other favorite memories from growing up here?

Judy: Oh, they're quite a few. One of the things I used to love to do, and I was so glad when they cut down all the trees, I used to hate to come out here because it was so ugly with all the trees and the flowers and the shrubs, all gone. But when they cut down the trees, they left one tree out there by the Guard House. And that was my reading tree, because back then the way that you irrigated was with ditches, you know, with water and that tree was right by that ditch. So, I would leave in the morning, go get some tortillas from Mama Perez, saltshaker I carried in my pocket, and I'd go over to that tree, and I'd read and stick my feet in the water. You know, it was just a good way, I always think of that when I see that tree. I took my granddaughter's out there oh several years ago because I wanted a picture by it and you know we did all this posing up by the tree and my husband Clark all of a sudden says, "Do you realize that that tree is covered with poison ivy?" So we real quick, you know, not on my watch are my granddaughter's going to get poison ivy. So, we came actually I think to a faucet out here and just washed everybody down and they were okay. But no, I was really glad that they left that tree. And Donnie and I-- mean we used to when the barn, you know the top part had hay in it, how we ever were allowed to do this I don't know, but we had a big swing, you know, big rope so we'd swing from one side to the other and then we had caves built out in it. You know, like-- I mean can you imagine the dust? No wonder I've got cancer. You know, I spent so much in there. But you know we just had the best time up in the hay lofts and swinging and having a good time. I would never allow my kids to do it now. And when we had sheep, that was another thing I used to love to do. For a while we had the sheep and you'd have these guys that would come in to shear, and so at the other building they put these great big, tall sacks, you know, to put the wool in when they sheared them. My job was to go up to the second floor after they got it kind of packed in a little bit, so I could get out, and then we'd jump in and stomp on it, you know, and then they just keep pull-- you know throwing them in like this until we got to the top. Well, my mother would not-- you can't imagine how greasy we were. You know, just lanoline or whatever that stuff, and stinky. So we couldn't even come in the house, we'd come in this back door and then we had a shower back there. You had to shower off before you could even get in, but I thought that was such fun. So that was another really special... And you know just hiding and trying to scare the tourists that were always coming over. We used to have a-- well you know the tunnel that they thought was the original tunnel, that the Boy Scouts dug. Okay. People always wanted to see the tunnel. And so, if we knew somebody was here, we would sneak around from the other side and make noises. And one time there used to be a hearse in this building over here. And I think they have it at the Trail Center. It's that same black hearse and it's got like a little coffin in it.

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: I have been known to get in there, [laughter] make noises. Yeah, I mean we really-- we were and oh-- what was her name? The lady that ran the curio shop, we just drove her crazy. Douglas, I think was her name, I can't remember. But she was always telling on what we were doing.

Kristin: So, you would have a lot of people just randomly stop?

Judy: Yeah.

Kristin: So, when you were young, how aware were you of the fort's history?

Judy: None. Not at all. I mean really. What was funny is you'd be here, you know, just doing your thing and somebody'd walk up. Like I said we always had people coming in and out, so I never really thought much about it. They'd walk up wonder where the fort was because they're looking for the wooden kind of Dodge City Fort, you know, and it's like, well, this is it.

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: What you see is what you get. Basically, it was just like anybody else's house except you know I wasn't allow-- I didn't go in town very often, so it was basically just the kids that we had here. Phil Perez who was the grandson of Papa and Mama, and Donnie, and sometimes we'd have a family that would move into this house over here like people that just came to work for a while. You know, they weren't there always.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: But yeah, the Perez's and the Douglas's, they're my family.

Ben: So as it became a historic site did you then start gathering more and more of that-- of the history that was here or was that just sort of...?

Judy: You know, when you're a teenager, you know, a young kid you don't pay too much attention-- I my job was to dust everything. When they put in-- Mabel, that was her name. Mabel somebody Mabel Douglas, Mabel somebody. When they put that curio shop in--

Kristin: Which was like a gift shop?

Judy: It was like a gift shop. You know, my parents would go down to Mexico, they had a lot of Mexican pottery and just stuff. But it was my job to dust it, so I got to dust all that stuff. And then I got to dust the, like when they had oh people that could walk in and look at some of the rooms in that north bu-- or south building they had like that big clock that was in-- it's in the Sante Fe Trail center right now, and it's got zinc in these three big colanders.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: Now ask me why I was messing with that, I don't know. But I know I spilled the zinc, and I'll bet if we went over there right now, we could dip down into the cracks of that board and find zinc in there, cuz there was about that much left, I mean, gone.

Ben: Jeez.

Judy: And for the next two weeks I'd go over there, you know, I didn't tell anybody, and I'd take paper and try to flip it up out of there. You know, now they even break a thermometer in the school Hazmat comes in! So anyway. And now somehow that zinc is all back in there. I remember noticing that the first time I went to the Trail Center and thought "Hmmm, somebody has rectified my mistake". I don't know how that worked, but.

Kristin: Do you have other family heirlooms over at the museum that you know of?

Judy: At the Trail Center?

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: Yeah.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: Like there's a melodeon that used to belong in our house.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: You know, I don't know what else, truthfully. I think there was a little iron over there in the kid's thing that we found one day. We used to go behind the tractors you know when they'd plow, and you'd find all, you know, the Indian arrow heads and little things, but I found a little iron, kids iron one time. And I think that's where it is.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: Might be here, I don't know. It disappeared when I left, so.

Ben: Now we were talking a little bit before the interview about some of the changes that have been made to this house, which used to be yours. You want to talk a little bit about that?

Judy: Well, I don't remember exactly when they had the additions put on, but I remember as a family we moved over to that North Office-- or quarters whatever you call them over there. And we lived there while they were doing this and, you know, they put like for example there was a door there that went out onto a little porch with lots of windows and there was a bathroom there and Mary slept there, and Jane and I slept here. And then the stairway that curved like that, they made it straight and then they had an addition. We called it the Rec Room. And they had a, like a bar in there and a indoor, outdoor fireplace, you know, where that-- they could cook. And it was it was really nice. I liked that Rec Room.

Kristin: So those are--

Judy: Additions.

Kristin: That your family did--

Judy: My family did.

Kristin: That have since been removed?

Judy: Yes.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: And then there was like, in the living room, there was like a window I don't know what you call those.

Ben: Bay window?

Judy: Bay window put in and the fireplace. See and I don't remember whether the fireplace was there before I was, you know, they did this addition or not.

Ben: We do have a photograph from, shoot, I mean you can see the kerosene lines go into the lights. So you know, I mean-- and a photograph in the corner too, so you can tell it's--

Judy: It wasn't there at a certain time.

Ben: No and the fireplace is there...

Judy: Oh, it is there.

Ben: ...in that one.

Judy: Oh, so it is pretty old.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: So maybe my grandparents. You know, I don't remember that. I don't-- I think that there used to be a beautiful big, what was that metal? Copper shade. I hope somebody got some money out of that cuz that was nice. I would like to know who took our playhouse. My grandparents from Missouri had this little playhouse out back and I imagine that disappeared when the state took it over, I don't know really. But I mean, it had lights, everything. It was a beautiful little house, windows, I mean everything. And it was gone the next time I was here, so I hope somebody's getting some use out of it.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: You know, surely, they didn't just trash it.

Ben: So, as the Park Service has taken this site over, what is your experiences with the changes here and what are some of the points of interest that you've noticed over the years?

Judy: Well as I said to you, I used to not like to come here because with all the trees down, and the flowers gone, and the garden's gone, it just looked so stark, you know. But you guys have done a wonderful job of getting this put back to the original. You know, after they let a few walls fall down and a silo fall down, I don't know if you know that history, you know, when they tore all the vines, I think off this house on this side, I think that wall came off.

Ben: Oh no!

Judy: And one of the silos to the north I think fell when they were trying to do something to it. But you know, once they really kind of got to the-- all the different buildings having you know some renovation and it's just, you know, your living history is fabulous. I think it's a wonderful thing to have. So I like it now. It's nice and it's good that it's preserved. You know, I think it's very undervalued. I think if people knew what was here.

Ben: Absolutely.

Kristin: Sure.

Judy: You know, it'd be incredible.

Kristin: What do you think of the ranch interpretation over in the new museum? Have you had much time?

Judy: I'm sure I've studied it that well. I mean it was-- we had cattle, sheep, pigs, you know, over where the Blockhouse, that's the word for it, is now. We had a pig pen and that was one of the most awful experiences in my life. I was in there doing something, and I heard this horrible shrieking, and it was an ant biting a baby mouse, that wasn't-- even had--. You know, they were to about the same size and I tried to get them apart with a stick. It didn't work. But oh, that shrieking. You never think that a little thing like that could shriek so loudly. But yeah, we had the pigs, we had chickens, Mama Perez had chickens Like said, we always had people, you know, wandering in and out. And it was just it was a good place, unless they stole your dog. We had this-- it was a little Shetland Shepherd they called it. Little fuzzy looked like a regular collie, only little, and somebody took that, and I was mad for so long. I like-- anybody that came is like...

Kristin: Sure.

Judy: ...give them the snake eye. Are you the one who took my dog? We named her Holly Loki because there was this Hawaiian dancer on the Arthur Godfrey Show. Go figure.

Kristin: What's your favorite event to come out to now or to bring your granddaughters out for?

Judy: Well, my granddaughters haven't been here. I'd like to take them to one of the Candlelight Tours, I think those are wonderful. You know, and just your living history, they've been out for a couple of those things. But they're just not close enough to be able to do it. You know, when I want-- if I had kids I think it's wonderful like the little Websters, Shauna's kids, you know people that live here having their kids do the living history, I think is wonderful. I used to-- as a teacher Pawnee Rock, I used to bring my school kids here. And you know, it was always-- they loved it. You know, kids really get into it if they know a little bit about it and I think the living history is a fabulous way to involve the younger people.

Ben: I know whenever I get the chance, I always try to bring up that it is thanks to the ranch era and using the buildings, and they had a purpose, that's the reason that we're able to interpret the history that we do. Because so many of these forts even if they do have something left, usually it's foundations and you have to use your imagination and not only are the rooms not furnished but they just don't exist anymore.

Judy: Right.

Ben: So, I always try to make sure that the Ranch Era gets credit for sort of inadvertently preserving what was here.

Judy: Well, you know, like you say, I don't know how much they were thinking about, you know, preserving it as using it. You know, my great grandfather, you know, those buildings were used and because the construction was so good, I mean, why would you tear down...

Kristin: Right.

Judy: ...the wood? You know, they built on top of them. So you know, the buildings as I was growing up it was just like pens and horses and, you know, junk and this thing I mean it was a paradise for kids. Totally dangerous, just nothing safe about it. And we would just go from one little hobble to another. We had a-- out here there used to be cops of trees and we had a tunnel built in there. Peggy Vratle, who's Jim Vratle's older sister, that was in my class. When she was a little girl, she was visiting and we were riding a horse and swinging from the tree, from the horse, tree. She fell and broke her arm, and she would not go home, she did not want to go back, and she stayed around here for hours with a broken arm. But I mean, everything we did was dangerous, you know.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: Someday we ought to get Donnie Douglas and Phil Perez and talk about the one room schoolhouse experiences because that's a total story in itself, truthfully. The things that we used to do out there, but as far as a ranch we just had ranch things. You know, we had all the critters, and we didn't always have the sheep. For a while we had them in and then as I was older we didn't have them anymore, so I don't know just how long all that lasted.

Phil Groshardt: This year we're happy to announce a new type of event at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Centered around reenactors and living historians, Camp 11 will be a wonderful opportunity for you to experience Fort Larned as an active military post. The event will focus on Hancock's war in the Spring of 1867 and while no programs or talks are scheduled, you're welcome to come and see soldiers drill, play games, and go about their workday as civilians do the same. Join us April the 11th and 12th for this unique look into the past. An event you won't want to miss is this year's Mess and Muster, a collaborative event with the Fort Larned Old Guard and Fort Larned National Historic Site. This year's theme is: Defending the Frontier. Join us on Saturday April 26th as we explore what the soldiers experience was both in garrison and in the field and the tools, they use to accomplish their mission. The evening's program will look at original examples of historic firearms used at Fort Larned all programs are free. A bagged lunch and a catered dinner will be offered: lunch is $12 per person and dinner is $20 per person. A silent auction will also be held at the evening's program. For more information, go to triple www.ftlarnedoldguard.com. Have you ever wanted to experience history for yourself? We're always looking for volunteers to help us present the history of Fort Larned's firearms and artillery. if you're interested in joining the Fort Larned Rifle Corp and Canon Crew historic weapons program, this year's mandatory training will be held at the Fort Saturday, May 3rd and will be an all-day training. For more information, call the Fort at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov.

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Kristin: You talked about finding like arrow heads and that little iron. Is there anything else that you found when you were out here?

Judy: No. They used to have what they call Geronimo's jacket out here. Now I don't know if that was true, but in the museum, we have been known to take it and ride horses. I don't know that-- whose jacket it was. It was like a little vest thing. No, but finding things-- and I wouldn't have known what to look for anyway, you know. It's like this is just the house and sometimes my parents were gone a lot, so it was Mary Perez and Douglas's and Perez's that kind of took care of us.

Kristin: Is your name carved on any of the buildings?

Judy: A few places, yeah. You've got a picture of my sister and I; it's the only place we've been together and not fought. But yeah, there a couple of places and I can't even tell you all, but it seems like every time you had a new boyfriend you'd go and scratch it somewhere. It was just a very, I don't know, different way to grow up I think as compared to how my grandchildren are being raised. You know, it's like you have to watch them to do everything. And I understand it, but you know, it's like we grew up I think pretty fast as far as taking responsibility for things and... But I like this house especially. You know, my mother died here, and my father was born here in that bedroom right over there. And they say that Custer stayed there that was-- you know, now George tells me he doesn't think that would happen, but I don't see why not, he was here right?

Kristin: Sure.

Judy: So, I claim it.

Ben: There we go there we go. Now when you were growing up here how close were your closest neighbors?

Judy: A mile I would say, maybe not, you know, you've got Frizzel over here and they had you know a whole pretty much a little town with some people in it. Berger and Skeltons and then over here were Blackwells, EP and John Blackwell lived in-- you can see the house I think it's still there I haven't really looked. So, they were the probably the closest that I-- the ones that we associated with. And then Lewis is-- if you got on your horse, you'd go visit the Lewis's.

Kristin: Why do you think it's important to preserve sites like these?

Judy: Well, I'm not I'm not a student of history, but I know a lot of people are. And to be able to come back and see how things really were, you know, with actual-- I would think would be pretty exciting. You know, I see all these young kids that come from Hays and different places to do your living history, I think that'd be pretty you know important for them. Impactful, I guess.

Ben: So early on in the in it becoming a historic site, I know there are some celebrations out here we had the cast of Gunsmoke, Steve McQueen, people like that I hear.

Judy: That's a whole another interview.

Ben: So, you remember a lot of that going on out here?

Judy: Yeah, I do. I remember sitting down in that bedroom while Amanda Blake-- I had freckles when I was young and you're always putting on lemon juice to get-- her whole body was freckles. I'd never seen anything like that, it was like wow, you know, I guess I'll keep my freckles they're all right. But she yeah, she was putting on her makeup down there. You know, of course Doc Stone, Milburn Stone was- grew up at the or went to school at the El Dora, who was my great-grandmother by the way and that's what they named the school for. But yeah, they were all in here. You know, who was Matt Dylan? Can't think of his name. He just-- one of my favorite stories, I think they put that in the paper I saw just recently, he got drunk and he wasn't going to drive, or ride the horse and I always thought it was Newt Lupfer that told him, but they said somebody else in the paper told him that they'd clean his clock if you didn't get on that horse and ride and parade. And he rode, you know, and the of all those people that were out here, the Culps were the only ones that left I think they thought we were just too small they weren't getting the attention they wanted. But you know, there were a lot of, a lot of people out here and just-- I mean the whole town got into that. Again, that's a whole different thing.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: But I was a jingle bell. Everybody was a bell.

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: You know, of some kind for something. And I kind of get that the Gunsmoke thing and then Larned had a celebration--

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: Right after that. And in my mind, they kind of combined because they were the same type of celebration. Everybody grew beards, you know, wore dresses and it was a fun thing to do.

Ben: Yeah, I recently saw some footage of one of those parades that, I mean the celebration started in town and then moved out here, and there's all sort of things going on out here too.

Judy: Yeah, it was pretty busy.

Kristin: Yeah, I don't know how-- I mean I've had so many calls from people saying you know my grandmother made this dress for this celebration in Larned and I know exactly what they're talking about. And they want to know if we can use it out at the Fort and I have to break it to them that it's not quite right but thank you.

Judy: They couldn't use it out here?

Kristin: No.

Judy: Wasn't the right style?

Kristin: No. Most of them have short sleeves and the straight skirt, yeah.

Judy: Gotcha.

Kristin: But yeah, so many of those dresses around, yes.

Judy: Yeah, that's pretty cool. Going back to that Gunsmoke thing, I remember going to Hollywood to arrange for them all to come here. And we went to the Hilton, I think that's what it was called, and they had little-- they had little cabins that, you know, you stayed in not just in the hotel, and then they had the swimming pool and the hula hoop had just come out. And it kind of, I don't know, I like this story cuz it kind of tells me what my mother was like. We got a hula hoop in Color-- in California and so we were throwing it in the swimming pool, all these people were laying around, you know, sunning and there were no kids, you know, we were the only kids. We'd throw the hula hoop in and then we'd jump in, and I guess some lady made a complaint that we were splashing, and I just remember my mother tearing into her. And I love that story, you know, it's like you go Sarah! It was just a good way to grow up, truthfully. Lots of animals, God I had every animal in the world. I used to have back before chemicals and it would rain, you would have big puddles of tadpoles. Do any of you remember that?

Kristin: Oh yes.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: You know, so I would have frog condominiums. I'd start out right back here with a tub for the little baby tadpoles, and then when they get back legs you move them to the next one, and then when they start to get their front legs you move them to the next one with a way to crawl out. And there was a guy named Reggie Milhaan that used to-- a lot of teenagers would come out at various times to work, you know, for my dad for just the summer or whatever. That little sucker, he came out, he dumped them all on the sidewalk. And I'll tell you what, he-- I would be hiding behind anything to throw an orange at him or, I was so mad at that guy. He only worked one summer he never came back. But wasn't that a cruel mean thing to do? I mean he would have been in high school. He should have known better than that. Like I said, I could go on and on, yeah.

Ben: Well, thank you for coming on.

Judy: This has been great fun.

Ben: Yeah, I'm glad we're able to get you on and hear some of your story, and--

Judy: Thank you.

Ben: ...and be able to tell that to whoever wants to listen.

Judy: There you go.

Ben: Also joining me is Liz Rasmussen.

Ben: Yeah, there there's been several times that I've talked with Judy in the past, which is why I wanted to get her on this season. But being able to actually sit down and talk with her for a solid half hour, 45 minutes was really cool and hearing her stories. And especially hearing her perspective as someone growing up here, it was just home. It was the ranch. It wasn't this historic site where all these major historic things happened, it was just every day.

Kristin: Yes and hearing her experiences through a child's eyes was super interesting and it also makes you think, you know, during the fort-- military days there were children out here and you-- I started to think about you know some of the things that Judy was doing surely kids then were doing also, you know, 100 years later. So, it was really neat to hear her stories and then think about yeah, you know, 100 years previously kids were doing the same kind of things out here. Now of course, nobody was stopping by then and saying, "Hey where's the fort?". So, it was really, you know, fun to hear her. She was just going about her business as a child, you know, and strangers show up on your property and want to know where the fort is. You know, and she's like "Well, you're seeing it right now.'' Cuz, it didn't mean anything to her, you know it's just her home, wasn't some you know historic site we know now it was just her home.

Liz: Back to what Ranger Ben was saying about back in the active Fort days, it was normal people just doing everyday things and then once Judy's family had bought the ranch, they were still just doing they-- normal people doing everyday things. That was kind of cool to hear about how it was just, it was just a ranch. It wasn't the fort when she was there. I mean it was, but for her it was, you know, what Kristin said it was the ranch, it was her home.

Ben: Yeah, and too like, almost the inadvertent preservation of the buildings. Like, it wasn't "Oh we should preserve these buildings as best we can so that it can be a historic site one day". It was, "These are good buildings let's use them and let's keep up the conditions of the roofs and the walls and things like that." And thankfully because of that, and because they used that skeleton to build up from and not out, that we're able to have one of, if not the most preserved fort in the country.

Kristin: Right, the use of the buildings were the actual preservation of them. I really enjoyed her talking about her sense of freedom growing up out here. I mean she was isolated, she said she very rarely went to town. But she had said she had so much freedom as a child, you know, she would leave the house in the morning and just do all these different things and then that made me think about the women that came out here, maybe as laundresses but definitely the women who were here with their husbands, their officer husbands. I can imagine how they had a little bit more freedom out here on the frontier as a woman than they would have had back east living under the watchful eye of their families, you know, because of their social status being expected to behave in a certain way. But they get out here on the frontier and I think they, of course, you know, there was a social status out here, but they had a little bit more freedom to maybe be themselves and do some things they wouldn't normally have gotten away with back home.

Liz: Judy talked about how she used to be a little onery and she talked about that hearse that's at the Santa Fe Trail Center. How in that little coffin how she used to hide in there and I thought about that as well what Kristin was talking about officers children back home, you know, they had to act a certain way, be a certain way, and so did the women but out at the Fort they probably had a little bit more time to be actual kids and not have to worry about that.

Kristin: Yeah, I had to laugh about her story about trying to scare visitors because I don't know how many-- so many visitors who've come out here that I've talked to when I'm doing living history want to know if I have a ghost story, you know. They want to know if this place is haunted and now I'm thinking well maybe Judy started that rumor by popping out of different places as a child.

Ben: Yeah, and too I've inadvertently scared visitors doing living history that when they initially see you, maybe you're not moving all that much and so they think you're the mannequin or something like that and then you say "Hi."

Kristin: And yeah, you're dressed out appropriately, yeah. People aren't expecting that, sure.

Ben: No. Like both of you have alluded to, really whenever we're interpreting history, we're putting ourselves in the shoes of somebody else. Maybe someone similar to us, but someone else. And so that's-- that was really cool about the interview but then also visiting sites like Fort Larned or other historic sites, you sort of have to ask yourself "What would I do in these different situations?" Like yeah, so the kids and maybe the wives coming out here, they have a little bit more free time or freedom to do more of what they want. Or if you're going to another place, you see the decisions that were made and when you get right down to it, no matter who made it, be it this high up general, a president, or just someone living there, really, it's just human decisions that we all have to make at the end of the day. And when you break it down, history really is just the story of people. It's not just names and dates. And so really that is historic interpretation is putting ourselves in the shoes of somebody else.

Kristin: Absolutely. I also love Judy's story of her family, and I had no idea that she had done this until we're talking with her, but her family going to California to meet with the Gunsmoke cast, you know, and talk to them about coming out here for the celebration. And I'm like wow, you know, they probably thought they were really big time, you know, going out to California seeing movie stars and trying to convince them to come to Larned, Kansas. So, but what an incredible experience. I mean, she had such a neat childhood, very unique that most people don't get to experience, that's for sure.

Ben: Yeah, when she said that the celebrations where he had the cast of Gunsmoke and other Western stars, that that could be its own episode, I kind of wonder what stories she has about all of those celebrations.

Liz: I like how what just really intrigues me about Judy is how she's watched the Fort go from a ranch to as well preserved as it is now. I remember the first time I ever came to Fort Larned I was probably about 10. The Visitor Center was completely different. And coming to volunteer a year ago, see the Visitor Center now and all the buildings better preserved than they were when I first got there was surprising, in a good way. So it' be really intriguing to go back to really see how it changed in stages to where we're at now, that was intriguing to me. She's, you know, she's had the front row seat to all the changes.

Ben: For those listening to if you ever want to take a look at least some of the perspectives that Judy would have had, our series on social media Fort Larned Footsteps, not to be confused with the Footsteps podcast, takes a look at original photographs throughout the years. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot from the military period, that's another story for another day, but we do have quite a few from the Ranch Era and we've posted quite a few of those too, so you can see Officers' Row or living quarters for them, with full rows of trees in front and some cars from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. There's that perspective inside of uh the Post Commander's Quarters which for them was-- for Judy was her home. But that was from before Judy's time that that photo was taken inside. So, a few of those you can tell are taken from that Ranch Era cuz it looks quite a bit different than it did in the Military Era.

Kristin: And I'm sure she feels like every adult does now when you go and visit your childhood home which just seemed enormous at the time. We should have asked her when she comes back now if it just feels really small.

Ben: I'm with the mazes in the hayloft too, that felt, that felt big. Well, we thank you for taking a listen and we hope you join us next month as we continue to explore these themes, and we hope you join us for the rest of the season as well. Until next time, have a good one.

Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. Join us next month as we talk with Dr. Doug Scott, who's done extensive archaeology at Fort Larned National Historic Site and countless other sites around the US and the world. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, share Footsteps with your friends and family, and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and X and as always, enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website: www.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time, this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast.

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Guest: Judy Readding Hosts: Ben Long, Kristin Keith, and Liz Rasmussen Join us as we talk with Judy Readding, a Larned native and someone who lived on the Fort Larned Ranch before it became a National Park Service site. Judy's perspectives offer a unique look into the Fort's early years as a historic site as well as its life as a working ranch.

March 8, 2025

1. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Episode 1 - Celeste Dixon

Transcript

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Celeste Dixon: And they said "Okay, here's your job. You have to learn everything you can about this battle and then tell people about it." And I said-- I didn't say this, but I thought to myself: And you're going to pay me? I think the little things that more people are going to see on a daily basis are probably uh the things that I'm most proud of. Just sharing those stories with people who'd never heard them before, to me that was the best part of the job.

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Celeste Dixon about her experiences as a Park Ranger at Fort Larned National historic site as well as other National Park Service Sites.

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Ben Long: Well welcome Celeste. Welcome on the podcast.

Celeste: Thanks for having me.

Ben: Thanks for being here. As we get started why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your history and-- I guess your military history, and then National Park history, and any other history you'd like to share.

Celeste: Well, I'm a Navy veteran, I have four years active duty, 18 years in the reserves. I actually retired from the reserves and when I was in the Navy I was-- I actually ended up on both coasts, Norfolk and San Diego. Which, you know, they always say there's a difference between the East Coast and the West Coast Navy. And then I got out and went to the University of Texas in Austin, the original UT and got a degree in history. And then I thought what am I going to do with a degree in history besides teach kids, which I don't like? So, I actually ran into-- so when my brother got married in Phoenix, he had run across an old high school friend of his working at Zion National Park. And Audie had actually gone to school to be an accountant, and he hated it, and he ended up getting a job with the Park Service. And so, after the wed-- a couple of months after the wedding I thought how did Audie do that? And so, I wrote him a letter, I got his address wrote him a letter and said, "How did you get in the Park Service?" And at that time back in the Dark Ages you-- if you wanted to apply for a summer seasonal job, you had to get this appli-- you had to write to someplace in Washington and they sent you this application which was a fill in the bubble thing where you would rate yourself on different skills. And then you can only pick two parks. Like you know you would pick-- look at the parks and say okay I'm going to-- you can send my application to this one and this one. And Audie gave me some tips. For one he says, rate yourself high he says you know if you've ever been in a canoe give yourself you know three or four for, you know, operating a boat. He also said, you know, the parks that got fewer applications would usually have an asterisk by them so it's probably better to, you know, pick one of those. So, I that's how I ended up picking Chickamauga and Chattanooga National Military Park because it had an asterisk by it, and I was interested in the Civil War. So, by the time I talked to Audie it was too late to apply for a summer season. Also, the applications had to be in by January 15th. So, you know, you had to really be planning ahead. But if you wanted a winter seasonal job you had to apply to each region. And you would get in touch with the regional office, and they would send you the same type of application, but you would send it to the region, and you would pick two parks within the region. And I did try for some winter seasonal jobs at that time, but I didn't get anything. But anyway, I did in the summer of 1995 get my first seasonal job at Chickamauga and Chattanooga National Military Park. And I showed up there in June and they said, "Okay here's your job: you have to learn everything you can about this battle and then tell people about it." And I said-- I didn't say this, but I thought to myself: "And you're going to pay me to do this?"

Kristin Keith: So, you thought it was a dream job?

Celeste: It was definitely a dream job. Once you get permanent, it's not so much fun anymore. It's still fun but, you know, it's not when you're-- I was just talking to Ben about this this morning. When you're a seasonal you do all the fun stuff. You talk to the visitors, you do the programs, you do the tours. And the poor permanent Rangers are the ones doing all the paperwork and filling out the forms or you know submitting grant requests and things like that the boring stuff. And so yeah, it was a dream job to me. And I found out later-- I mean the main interpretive program that they had then, they're not doing it anymore, but they did these car caravan tours. Where you would-- people would sign up they usually did one at 10:00 and then at 2:00 and people would sign up and then the Ranger who was doing the tour would come and collect everyone and take a park car and do a little introduction at the Visitor Center and then drive around with these all these cars following you and stop at different places in the battlefield and talk about it. And I have to say that is the most fun I've ever had on a job either before or since. It was just a blast. I found out though-- and so I just started preparing for one right away. And nobody really told me, this but they don't always expect the seasonals to be able to do-- it's a complicated battle, and they don't really expect the seasonals to do it their first time. And I didn't-- nobody told me that and I just thought that I want to get out there and start doing that because that's the fun job. And so, I started-- my first summer I started giving those tours and that was like I said that was best fun I ever had on a job.

Kristin: Did you visit a lot of parks as a child? Did your parents take you to National Parks?

Celeste: Yes, as a matter of fact when I was-- my parents had a 35mm camera and I was looking through some of the footage and there was-- I remember when we lived in Tennessee my mom, and my brother, and maybe another sister, we went up to Chattanooga. And there's actually film of us walking around Point Park which is in the Chattanooga District of Chickamauga and Chattanooga National Military Park. I was probably five or six at the time. But yes, we used to go camping in National Parks, we used to go to not necessarily National Park-- historic sites-- I mean we did a lot of stuff like that when I was a kid. But I don't recall that ever influencing my decision to be a Park Ranger. It's just-- it was definitely a lot of fun. It probably influenced my love of history.

Kristin: Sure

Celeste: But I never really thought about being a Park Ranger.

Ben: So how long then were you working at Chattanooga Chickamauga?

Celeste: That would be Chickamauga and Chattanooga.

Ben: Chickamauga Chattanooga

Celeste: And I was there for five summer seasons. And in between seasons I went back to Austin. Well, the first winter after I was done, I didn't get a winter seasonal job, but I did apply for after the '96 season and I didn't hear back until the Truman home called me in February of '97. So, starting in in '97 I was basically working year-round but I was a seasonal, so I did two winter seasons at Harry S Truman National Historic Site in Independence. And then after-- in '98 I guess it was, yeah, '98 I got a winter seasonal job at Martin Luther King Jr National Historic Site in Atlanta. So, I was working year-round but obviously I was bebopping between different places.

Kristin: What are some of the differences between all of those parks and sites as far as programs and visitor...?

Celeste: Well, they were all pretty busy parks. Unfortunately compared to this place. And I say that unfortunately because there should be more people coming through the doors here and they're not. I mean Chickamauga had probably-- averaged 700 people a day in the summertime. So, you're not really spending-- it depends on most of the time you were just handing people brochures. But people would ask questions and you could talk to them and have conversations, but there were a lot of people coming in and out. And same for Martin Luther King it was very busy in the summertime. Now for the Truman home and really for MLK in the winter it wasn't necessarily that busy. But the main-- for both of those places, the main interpretive program was touring the houses. They were house tours. So, Harry Truman's house on Delaware, I think it was Delaware Street can't even remember now, and MLK's childhood home on Auburn Avenue in Atlanta. And, you know, you-- obviously not as fun as driving around a battlefield, but still very interesting. And I have to say when I went-- so after two summers at Chickamauga-- and I got the job at Martin Lu-- I mean at Harry Truman, I thought "Okay well it is a job, but I mean how exciting can a president be after-- especially one from Missouri especially after you know talking about all the drama on a Civil War battlefield?" Let me tell you, Harry Truman is a very interesting man, very interesting. I really enjoyed learning a lot about him. I've enjoyed learning about all the places where I've been.

Ben: So then, after working at those three sites was that when you got into your permanent career?

Celeste: Well, my permanent job I got at Martin Luther King. And I was there-- so that was April of 2000. And so, I was permanent a little over a year and I had applied almost a year after they hired me for this intake training program, and I got into it. And it was this pro-- they don't do it anymore, but it was this program where they would get people from different career fields, there would be a class, it was a two-year training program, and you would be sent to this host park. So, each career field-- each person had some-- a budget for training so you could find training in your career field and go to training but there were also during the course of this two years seven group activities where we all got together as a class in different places and had different um training related to just working for the park service. And I of course was in the Interpretive Field. There was seven of us in that class, we were the largest group, the next largest was law enforcement at four and then there was a smattering of concessions, maintenance, admin, historians, that kind of thing. And they sent me to Richmond National Battlefield Park. So, I apparently was stuck in the Civil War, and I was there for two years but I traveled around a lot. That was actually a very busy time in my life because I traveled, I was traveling for the Park Service, I was traveling for the Navy, I was-- seemed like about once a month I was going somewhere, I was never home, so. But Richmond was interesting, you know, totally different cast of characters Eastern Theater versus Western Theater. Robert E. Lee, Ulysses Grant, although Grant does show up at Chattanooga so, you know, got a little bit of an introduction to him, but I definitely tell you that's where I found out Grant's probably one of the most underrated Civil War generals in this country. So, after Richmond, after two years at Richmond, they had to place me in another park, and I didn't really want to go to another Civil War park but in the Northeast Region there were two openings. One was at Appomattox, and one was at Fredericksburg. And I found out later that the regional director pretty much told the superintendents at each park "One of you has to take her and we don't care which one it is." So, I ended up at Appomattox Courthouse National Historical Park and continued my relationship with Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant. And I saw-- so I ended up here because I thought I'm so tired of the Civil War I mean I really like it, but you know, I don't-- I didn't want that to be my career. So, I saw this opening, didn't know anything about Fort Larned other than this gal that I worked with at the Truman home was from Burdett.

Kristin: Oh really?

Celeste: Yes, so she had worked here as a seasonal. Valerie... can't remember her last name. Anyway, that's the only thing I knew about this place. And here I am.

Ben: Here you are. And how long have you been here now?

Celeste: 14-- 16-- I came in 2008 and it's now 202-- I came in February of 2008 and it's now 2024, so. What is that? Somebody do the math, cuz I can't.

Ben: There's a reason I'm a history major not a math major.

Celeste: Me too!

Ben: Yeah, so the initial draw to Fort Larned then was because it was outside of the Civil War realm?

Celeste: Yeah, I mean you know obviously the time frame covers the Civil War, but I definitely knew I was not in the South anymore when the very first-- and out of the Civil War really because that's not a focus at this park -- when the first Rendezvous-- yeah, the first Rendezvous which was 2008 focused on the Santa Fe Trail and the Mexican-American War. And if you work at a Civil War park, anytime the Mexican War comes up it's always about which Civil War officers got their feet wet in combat during the Mexican War and nobody mentioned that here. So, I thought well that's good I'm not in the Civil War anymore.

Ben: Yeah.

Celeste: It's a totally different outlook. There's obviously-- I mean even just generally speaking geographically in this country there's no focus on the Civil War here in Kansas. It's not, it's just not an issue.

Kristin: What are some of your favorite experiences you've had here? It could be a program, a visitor, a story you've told.

Celeste: I don't know. I've really enjoyed doing living history. I won't do it as a hobby. But since they're paying me.

Kristin: Sure.

Celeste: I enjoy doing that. I've enjoyed learning more about the Plains Indians. It's obviously-- one thing that I would say the difference between Fort Larned and the other parks where I work-- all the other parks that I worked at dealt with either big onetime events or some very important well-known figure. Which also corresponded with well-known events. This place-- Fort Larned is about individual people for the most part. I mean there's a few famous names that come in and out of here, but for the most part you're talking about ordinary Americans doing ordinary things but it's part of-- it's an important part of the history. I mean that's really what history is. We only hear about the big names, but it's people doing stuff every day, moving along, getting the job done that really constitutes history in my opinion. So even though those big names are very fascinating, and we know more about them, they're just a few people. And here I was learning about all these different-- like I wrote a series of articles for the Post Commanders for The Outpost, and I found out that the very last commander here at Fort Larned-- Post Commander here at Fort Larned was responsible for sadly a very sad history in the Philippine War. There was-- he was responsible for some sort of retaliation for an uprising during the Philippine, I don't know what you call it, I forget what it's called. It's not a-- I mean the Filipinos would probably call it a revolution, but I don't think that's what we called it at the time. But he was responsible for-- but then I don't think that he himself thought that he was, you know, he was just like these guys they're not doing what we want them to do, and they got to be punished. But it's interesting, you know, when you see those connections.

[Music swells and fades]

Phil Grossardt: As always with a new year comes new events at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this year as we maintain our classic annual events and spice it up with some new ones this year's events include Camp 11: an event focused on reenactors and living historians where the public is more than welcome to come watch these reenactors immerse themselves into the daily life of a frontier post. Dates: April the 11th and 12th, 2025. Mess and Muster: a collaborative effort with the Fort Larned Old Guard. Join us this year as we examine defending the fort as well as the Santa Fe Trail. The evening talk will feature military firearms used at Fort Larned with original examples. Go to triple "w", "f" "t" old guard dot com, that's www.ftlarnedoldguard.com for more details. Date: April 26th, 2025. Memorial Day Weekend: A Fort Larned classic in one of our biggest living history events of the year. Come enjoy the sights, sounds, and smells of a frontier post. Touch history for yourself this this Memorial Day Weekend, May 24th through the 26th, 2025. Independence Day: How did soldiers 157 years ago celebrate the anniversary of our nation's independence? Come see for yourself July 4th through July 6th at Fort Larned. Labor Day Weekend: A perfect way to unofficially close out the summer in style. Join us as we bring the fort to life and experience for yourself this piece of history. Dates: August 30th through September 1st, 2025. Candlelight Tour: A local favorite and the only event to require reservations, although the event is free. Enjoy the post lit up by candlelight in this unique view of Fort Larned. Date October the 11th, 2025. Reservations open September 20th at 8:30 a.m. Central Time. Christmas Past: A perfect way to enjoy the holiday season with the whole family. Enjoy seeing the fort spruced up for the holiday season and experience some of the ways the soldiers and enjoyed the holiday. The date: December 13th, 2025. [Break] All too soon we're a part of history, help preserve our past today. The Fort Larned Old Guard is a nonprofit organization designed to benefit programs and operations at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Over the years, The Fort Larned Old Guard has bought artifacts with direct provenance to Fort Larned, commission paintings dealing with Fort Larned's story, and much more. If you enjoy what we do at Fort Larned, please consider donating to The Fort Larned Old Guard or becoming a member. Visit triple "w", "f" "t" old guard dot com, that's www.ftlarnedoldguard.com for more details on donating and membership.

[Music swells and fades]

Kristin: Have there been any other connections to Fort Larned with your other parks that you've been at?

Celeste: Well, Custer was at Richmond, he was at Appomattox, he was here, can't get away from the guy. Grant. Grant is President, well he was he was the general-in-chief for part of the history here and then he was President. Sherman, Sheridan, you know there's a lot of-- there were a lot of people associated with the Civil War who continued in the Army and obviously came out in this direction. Grierson who was commander of the 10th Cavalry, the Buffalo Soldiers. He actually was in Grant's Army of I think it was the Mississippi at the time. The one that he was in command of when he captured Vicksburg and Gerson actually did a big behind enemy lines Cavalry raid in Mississippi to detract from or to distract from the fact that Grant was crossing the Mississippi River South of Vicksburg to attack Vicksburg from the East instead of the West. So, he also didn't like horses.

Kristin: Okay.

Ben: That's interesting.

Celeste: He got kicked in the face by one. If you look at his pictures, he's always facing one way or the other. I forget which-- I forget which side he keeps from the camera but that's the side that got kicked by a horse when he was younger.

Ben: Huh, I never knew that.

Celeste: So even though he apparently made a very good Cavalry commander, he wasn't fond of horses.

Ben: I wouldn't be there if that happened to me. Now, sadly soon here you're going to be retiring and hanging up the ranger hat for good. What are some of the things that you're going to miss most about interpreting history?

Celeste: Talking to people. Even though I might have told stories or the same piece of information on a regular basis the people-- most of the time the people that were hearing it had never heard it before, so it always seemed fresh to me. And sharing-- just sharing those stories with people who'd never heard them before to me that was the best part of the job. I mean the programs and the tours and the things like that are fun, but when you have a conversation with someone who's never thought about a piece of history in a certain way and has an "aha" moment about something that they had never thought about, to me that's the best part of the job.

Kristin: Did that work both ways? I mean did you ever visit with someone, and you learned something from them?

Celeste: Yes, and I've changed my perspective from some visitors and sometimes it's a perspective that I thought I was never going to change and then all of a sudden someone just presents it in a certain way and I'm like, you know, yeah maybe that is the case. So yes, I learned from them just as much as some people learned from me, so.

Kristin: What's your favorite special event that goes on at Fort Larned?

Celeste: Candlelight.

Kristin: Okay.

Celeste: Has to be Candlelight.

Ben: I think that's just about everybody's favorite, it's such a unique event.

Celeste: Although sadly, most of the time I was never in scenes, I was always running the desk. But it's still-- it's just an interesting program. Now they did something-- I tell you one funny story that related to a similar type of program was at Richmond. So at-- Richmond Battlefield has basically pieces small pieces of about five different battles that are associated with the 1862 and 1864 campaign to capture Richmond. And one of them is a section of the Cold Harbor Battlefield. So in-- for the anniversary of the battle which was fought I think June 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, they do these what they call Torchlight Tours. And they do essentially the same thing but it's outside, they have different scenes. Now there, the tour guides actually set up the scene before they get there, but they will have-- like the year that I was there they had they had some soldiers you know digging trenches and there was a couple of guys, one is a Lee impersonator and the other is a Grant impersonator that were there. And so the second year I was there I was going to be a tour guide, or you know, for the Torchlight tour and so we were walking through during the day, we were walking through the scenes so we could understand what we were doing, and we got to this certain point and I guess Grant was supposed to be at this scene and just when we get there this silver truck, SUV pulls up, Grant gets out, and Lee is driving.

Ben: That had to have been a funny sight.

Celeste: It was. It was also raining and-- or drizzling and all of that wool smelled like wet dogs.

Kristin: What are you most proud of over your years in the Park Service? Like of your contribution, or a project you've worked on?

Celeste: Well, you know when I was at Chickamauga the permanent Ranger and I started it might have been the second summer, we-- there's a book, it's called the Civil War Day by Day and we started to make-- I started it and she continued it, we started these little displays that we put in the visitor center and we took each year we took something out of that book for each year and made these little, you know, 8.5 by 11-- you know we had to work ahead, but it took us a year but we got a year's worth of this on this day in the Civil War. I felt like that was a nice little project. I don't know if there's anything I'm-- I don't know, I've done a lot of stuff. So, I can't really think of any one thing but that was fun. I'm glad that I finally got all of the displays for the buildings here, the little things that go on the plexiglass, finished. The ones for Officers' Row were done years ago and then the ones for the rest of the buildings, they were actually done years ago too and then they sat on the-- in my on my hard drive for years as well. But, you know, I mean to me it's those little pieces of information that more people are going to see every day rather than one big program that only a few people are going to see. I mean the reason they don't do those car caravan tours anymore at Chickamauga I found out-- I mean I don't know what they do, but if you think about an average of 700 visitors a day and the most you might get for a car caravan tour was, you know, 20 or 30 people, you're talking 60 people out of 700 are getting an in-depth tour of the battlefield. They had these tape tours that you can rent from the bookstores, so people did that too, but, you know, in terms of the time that the Rangers put into those programs and the number of people they were reaching, I guess eventually they decided to do away with it. But-- and those are still good, but I think the little things that more people are going to see on a daily basis are probably the things that I'm most proud of.

Ben: That's cool.

Celeste: It's not glamorous, but--

Kristin: Yeah.

Ben: No, but it's important.

Celeste: But it's important, that's right.

Ben: Yeah. So, one of my favorite things working with a Park Service and working at different sites is finding out why they're National Park Service sites. I was curious what in your opinion is the reason that Fort Larned is a National Park Service site?

Celeste: Well, I mean it had to do with a lot of local people who said, "This is an important place". They knew the history, they knew-- like I said nothing big, major happened here. I mean, even if you think of Hancock's War, or the village site that still most people wouldn't consider that a huge event, although it did have a lot of historical significance. I just think it was the ordinary people around here who said this has a national story and we need to save it.

Ben: Yeah, and save the stories of the ordinary people that lived and worked here.

Celeste: Exactly.

Kristin: How did the preservation of Fort Larned compare to the other places you've worked at?

Celeste: Well, Chickamauga was actually preserved by the veterans themselves. It was actually the very first National Military Park. And eventually those military-- those National Military Parks made it into the Park Service. MLK, I think was, I actually can't remember how-- I know Jimmy Carter signed the legislation, but I don't remember who was the impetus behind it-- impetus behind it. Richmond was actually a bunch of peo-- Douglas South Hall Freeman who was a famous Lee biographer back in the 1920s got a group of Richmond citizens together and they preserved those little sections of the battlefield that eventually went from private hands to state to the National Park Service. And Harry Truman, well he just-- they donated their house to the Park Service. They said we think we were important, and we want you to have it.

Kristin: I would like to add that as a volunteer I have learned so much from you. You've been a tremendous resource, and you will be greatly missed when you retire.

Celeste: Well thanks! You can always call me.

Kristin: I will! And I hope you might consider volunteering.

Celeste: I might. Only with you.

Kristin: Okay.

Ben: Yeah, well thank you for coming on and sharing your story and--

Celeste: Yeah.

Ben: And telling us a little bit about your experiences and preserving history.

Celeste: Well thanks for having me.

Phil Grossardt: As always, Fort Larned National Historic Site is open 7 days a week from 8:30 a.m. until 4:30 p.m. and is just 6 miles west of Larned, so stop by for a visit! If you're interested in learning how you can help Fort Larned National Historic Site give us a call at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov and ask us about volunteer opportunities. Now back to the rest of the episode!

Ben: Welcome to the discussion portion of the episode where we break down the interview and how it applies to Fort Larned. I'm Ranger Ben one of the Park Rangers here at Fort Larned National Historic Site, I do a lot of work with our social media, obviously with the podcast as well, and enjoy living history a lot. I'm also joined by Kristin Keith.

Kristin: Thanks, Ben, for asking me to join you this this year. I've been volunteering out here at Fort Larned I think for around 10 years now. I enjoy doing living history working with school groups that come through with some education programs and tours. I'm involved in Fort Larned Old Guard, I'm currently serving as chair and I'm also part of the Santa Fe Trail Association, our local chapter Wet/Dry Route Chapter and the Larned Historical Society.

Ben: Also joining me is Liz Rasmussen.

Liz Rasmussen: Thanks, Ben, for having me. I have been volunteering at the Fort for about a year and a half. I really enjoy living history and learning more about the history of Fort Larned which is so local here in Kansas it's kind of cool to have something local that has such a big impact on how Larned was established and how the fort was established.

Ben: Well, I really enjoyed that interview. It was really fun even though I've worked with Celeste for the last 5 years, it was really fun to get-- to learn more about her past in the Park Service. One of the big highlights for me in the episode was how she was talking about her shift from the big names of the Civil War and even though your everyday, your privates, sergeants, even captains and low-level officers were part of that, it really is those big names: Lee, Grant, Sherman, those guys that that sort of come to the service and those dates. But then coming here-- and there's-- yeah there's some big names that come through here and some big dates, but for the most part it's just everyday life and everyday people making it happen.

Kristin: Yes, and if you as a listener stick around through all of the episodes, you will notice that that's a theme throughout this podcast is the history of the lives of everyday people not just names we immediately recognize. But what life was like for ordinary people at the time.

Ben: Names you won't find in history books.

Kristin: Right. So, what really stuck out to me talking with Celeste was her passion for history and for the Park Service. And I feel like she is going to be an inspiration to people because she really explains to you the process she went through of becoming a Park Ranger and so I hope that will be inspirational to some listener out there to think, "Wow, you know, this is a career path that I hadn't thought of but it's something that I might want to pursue".

Liz: My big takeaway from Celeste is she talked about the difference between seasonal and permanent jobs. She talked about how much more fun it seemed that seasonal-- her seasonal jobs had because she had all this information that she just got to tell all the tours and the permanent positions, you don't do a lot of that you're trying to you know-- you're doing a lot in the background, but you still do some of it. And part of preserving a National Historic Site is also the knowledge you have explaining everything especially to children or adults who want to learn more.

Ben: And even though doing the paperwork and things like that might-- it's not as glamorous but it's just as important as those people doing the tours and leading people around, so.

Kristin: Which again, if you have a passion for your job you deal with the day-to-day tasks that you have and look forward to the interaction with the public. And she talked some about dealing with or working with kids and I think it is so important when kids come here to Fort Larned that we Inspire them and give them as much knowledge as we can so that they take that home with them and share that with their parents and are excited about bringing family members back here to Fort Larned. So, I think that's a-- you know a huge part of being a Park Ranger too.

Ben: Absolutely. And I always like to say that this is the best classroom you could have. I mean, you can read about what frontier soldiers did all day long, but you can actually-- since you can actually come here and try out the bunk beds and you can see the blacksmith at work and everything like that, it just solidifies it for every one of all ages really.

Kristin: Absolutely.

Liz: As a student, actually, I didn't really like history that much unless it was local and even then, it was kind of boring. When I started coming out here to volunteer it made it-- it just kind of set the stage. You read all about this and now you're actually seeing it and seeing how it actually was-- it's a lot different than sitting in the classroom and reading about it.

Ben: It is. Yeah, and it's really just the stories of everyday people like we were talking about. And like the unintentional theme that came out this season was just the stories of people that keep the wheels moving. People that might not end up in the history books but they're important, nonetheless. And so that's-- I mean as far as taking the interview and bringing it back to the themes of Fort Larned, it was obviously really easy since Celeste has worked here for last number of years in her career. But yeah, that's the big thing of just throughout history-- and that's something to keep in mind as we explore different parts of history different-- even different battles and other historic sites too is, there might be big names but it's really the everyday people, the privates in the army or just everyday civilians that are keeping the wheels moving.

Kristin: I also enjoyed listening to Celeste's history that she began her career in the military in the Navy and then she ended her career at a military, historic site and she spent a lot of her Park Service at different military sites. So, I think she had a theme going through her career so was kind of interesting listening to all those connections that she could make. She also mentioned a couple of events during her interview. For people who aren't familiar with Fort Larned's schedule Celeste mentioned an event called Rendezvous. So, I just wanted to clarify what that is. Rendezvous happens every other year and it's a collaborated event between the Santa Fe Trail Association, the Santa Fe Trail Center Museum here in Larned, and Fort Larned. It's an academic symposium where lots of speakers are brought in to speak about a certain theme. So, it's a really neat event for you to come to and just really study in depth a theme that they might have. Also, she mentioned Candlelight. Which happens here at Fort Larned the second Saturday of October every year. It's in the evening, and it's done by lamp light or candlelight and again you go building to building and there's a certain theme that is portrayed by a large group of living history volunteers. So that's a fun event for people to attend. Then Celeste also mentioned writing some articles for The Outpost and The Outpost is a...

Ben: Newsletter.

Kristin: Newsletter, thank you. That Fort Larned Old Guard puts out that she's been helping write for. Also, Ranger Ben has done that. So, I just wanted to clarify what those events and publications were.

Ben: Yeah, thank you for that. Candlelight Tour is definitely a local favorite and for a lot of the volunteers that help out with it it's also a favorite event too, because you do-- you get to see a different side of the fort with it being dark and there's a different type of interpretation. It's not people walking in and "Oh no, I have to answer questions about A through Z", it's "I have what I need to say and then the group moves on". So, it's a fun introduction for a lot of people to the living history world too.

Kristin: Yes, it's definitely event where you feel like you've gone back in time.

Ben: Yeah.

Kristin: Definitely.

Ben: It's always fun. Well, we want to thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed the interview and we hope you join us next month and the rest of the season. Until next time, have a good one.

[Music slowly swells]

Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. Join us next month as we talk with Judy Readding, a Larned native and someone who grew up on the Fort Larned Ranch before the National Park Service bought this historic gem. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, share footsteps with your friends and family, and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and as always enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website www.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time, this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast!

[Music fades]

Guest: Celeste Dixon Hosts: Ben Long, Kristin Keith, Liz Rasmussen Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Celeste Dixon about her experiences as a Park Ranger at Fort Larned National historic site as well as other National Park Service Sites.

Season 1

March 2, 2024

7. Season 1 Bonus Episode

Transcript

[Footsteps intro music plays]

Ben Long: Welcome back to footsteps the Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast. Here we are on our bonus episode, episode 7 of season 1. This season we took a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future and today we sort of take a look at different perspectives of some volunteers and visitors at our annual Labor Day event here in 2023 is the year. It is very hot; it was about 100° this weekend but we still got some good perspectives from a wide range of people. I'm your host Ranger Ben co-hosting with me again is our intern, Carter. Carter co-hosted with me on the first episode of this season, so if you hadn't had a chance to listen to that, definitely take a look at that but welcome back Carter.

Carter Atteberry: Thank you, I'm happy to be back.

Ben: As we got some interesting perspectives from different people, one of my favorite things was just the passion that that people seem to have about Fort Larned and hearing from the visitors almost the surprise that they have of what we have here.

Carter: Oh yeah. I think it's really good what we got in this episode. You know, we got to interview a variety of people. We got a younger volunteer, a volunteer that's not originally from the area, we got a volunteer's mom, we also were able to get a couple visitors and then everybody gave us a unique perspective that was really insightful.

Ben: Hearing these different perspectives almost makes you stop taking what you have for granted in a way.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Ben: And while I don't ever try to take this place for granted, I think it just naturally happens sometimes and hearing some outside perspectives is always fun to hear what other people think about this place.

Carter: Oh yeah, we'll never get to experience our first time at Fort Larned again, so it's good to get a new perspective on it.

Ben: So I hope you enjoy these various perspectives and I hope you enjoy the episode.

Carter: Have fun!

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright here we have Asher from Kansas. He's been doing some reenacting out here the last couple years, right?

Asher: Yeah, I've been-- I started reenacting last year.

Ben: He's been playing the drum for when we march around and things like that and sounding better and better. This season we're focusing on Fort Larned's past, present, and future and taking a look at what that looks like. And so, as someone who reenacts the past and sees these buildings as they appeared in the past, but you're here in the present and maybe you see a little bit of the future, what's your perspective and sort of what keeps you coming back to do this kind of thing?

Asher: I don't know it's just really cool cuz I get to see like the new people and meet new faces and I just, I don't know I think it's really cool just to almost be like in the footsteps of like what a soldier would have been doing and acting like, wearing attire and all the stuff that would have happened back then is just really cool and they kind of living it.

Ben: Even when it's 100 degrees outside and--

Asher: Oh yeah, honestly though I kind of like it with I feel better in the sack coat and the shirt yeah, I feel more comfortable wearing this than I do wearing just a t-shirt out in the 100° weather.

Carter: I wish I had that problem.

Ben: And that's one of the more common questions we get too especially when it's hot out is: are you hot? And I think when it's 100° everybody's miserable no matter what you're wearing.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Ben: But you really get a new perspective for what these guys went through 150 years ago. I mean, I can't imagine being out on guard squad for 2 hours in the beating sun.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Asher: That would suck.

Carter: I feel like that also gives you a greater appreciation for what you have now. I mean, I stand outside for an hour and a half and I have pink stains all over my shirt because of my handkerchief. I'm like man I just can't wait to get back in the AC and then I'm in there it's just a whole new world and then these guys this is what they had. That's crazy to me.

Ben: What initially got you started in it? Cuz obviously there's got to be that little kick to sort of start doing--

Asher: Basally my-- I was-- I started out like loving the Civil War when I was really young. I watched like westerns and stuff with like my dad and I don't know I just kind of like liked the Civil War I just thought it was a cool thing and I actually went to Cowtown and there was like originally like these people and they kind of like gave me like this-- they put on they put a sack coat on me, it was really big on me though, I was like drowning in it. They messaged like my mother and was like they swapped like Facebook or something and was like yo you can sign up or whatever to join the-- their company, their group. That never happened. Like they like my mom messaged them and there was just no response. But that happened and then like a few years later we met this one really cool guy like named Robert. And Robert's a really cool guy. He was like open arms like we met him at Cowtown one time, then a couple years later we came back Civil War day, and then he just sort of like I was able to sit with the soldiers ate hardtack with them. Eventually like they my mom already had like his Facebook or whatever. He offered like hey you want to come down to Fort Larned my mom was like oh cool and he mentioned it previously like oh yeah they have like all the uniforms there you don't have to worry about bringing your own things. That was cool cuz I'm growing rapidly and I'm not going to spend like I don't know like $400 on a like a sack coat and maybe like a pair of pants and shoes, I'm just going to outgrow it in a couple months.

Ben: It had been a while since I had seen you, so when you came Memorial Day weekend you had just shot up and--

Carter: Oh yeah, it was crazy.

Ben: I don't think much of what fit you last year, fit you this year, so.

Asher: Yeah it doesn't really think-- the shoes hardly even fit me anymore. Like next time I come here I'm not going to be wearing these shoes.

Ben: That's another awesome thing about this site is we do have a lot of reproduction uniforms and things like that that our volunteers can use volunteers and reenactors can use. So really it just takes the gas money to get here and you get to dive into the hobby and explore it and see if it's right for you before really trying it up for yourself full time.

Asher: Yeah, I think it's an amazing hobby. You just really need like relations if that makes any sense, like you need to like know other people to get it started out. Like going to events is like the main way to like start it out, meet some people then they'll have you meet other people.

Ben: Yeah.

Carter: Yeah, I think we've gotten lucky out here we've got cool people like Robert and then Logan. Steve when they brought 11th OVC out back in April, we've had the chance to bring really cool people out because this is such a unique opportunity to do something you don't get this a whole lot. And we're like oh stay in the original buildings don't sleep on the grass. Experience a little bit of comfort with your life.

Ben: Yeah, get the full experience of garrison life all that.

Carter: So Asher.

Asher: Yeah.

Carter: I started coming out here at kind of a younger age. You're one of the youngest we have out here. What age did you start coming out here at?

Asher: 14 now so probably 13.

Carter: Yeah, you were pretty young. I started I was 16 I believe. And what keeps bringing you back out here? I don't know just to see you guys again and just to dress up it's really cool and just meet new people. I don't know I just like meeting new people. experiencing like the same kind of hobby as them and just like talking about it, cracking jokes every now and then, just messing around having fun and it's just kind of like a break from modern times in a way. You don't have to worry about all the stuff that's happening like there-- it's just kind of like your own little space if that makes any sense.

Ben: Yeah, disconnect from technology and things like that.

Carter: It's like a family.

Ben: Yeah

Carter: That's what I like to think about it.

Asher: Like I might check my phone every once in a while, but I'm not like on at 24/7 watching YouTube.

Ben: Any last things you want to add to this or?

Asher: I don't know. I think it's pretty cool there's a podcast now.

Ben: I think it's pretty cool too.

Asher: Yeah.

Ben: Hopefully this will be airing March of 2024 and as we're recording this it is Labor Day 2023 and it is hot outside. So I am I'm looking forward to the cooler temperatures of March though I know when we get to March I'm going to complain about the cold temperatures in March.

Carter: Oh yeah. And our first episode actually came out yesterday--

Ben: Yes.

Carter: September 2nd. I'm sure you guys have already listened to it but listen to it again.

Ben: It was a fantastic episode.

Carter: It was an amazing episode. I honestly found things out in that episode that I didn't even know about.

Ben: Yeah.

Asher: Oh that's cool.

Carter: I didn't know the difference between white wash and white paint I'm going to be totally honest.

Ben: Yeah and then I remember there's one part where you're like I didn't know the pillars--

Carter: Oh yeah the pillars. Just real casual, like oh yeah some of those pillars are original. I'm like uh-- uh--

Ben: Well thank you Asher for coming on and giving your perspective and look forward to seeing you back out here again.

Asher: Okay

Carter: Yeah.

Ben: Thank you.

Asher: You're welcome.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Now here we have Brad from Kansas. How's it going today?

Brad: It's going good, thank you.

Ben: If I'm not mistaken you've been reenacting for quite some time but this is your first time out here doing stuff at the Fort, right?

Brad: Yes it is.

Ben: How long have you been reenacting?

Brad: I got started American Civil War reenacting in 1994 at 13 years old.

Ben: So a few years.

Brad: Quite a few years. And ventured into other eras and it's been quite an expensive adventure.

Ben: And from talking with you and seeing your posts on Facebook and things like that, I see you been many places around the country many historic sites. What sort of motivates you to do that kind of thing?

Brad: Well I've always had a passion for history and especially American history because it's right here in our backyard and yes, the National Park Service, they have sites that cover natural sites like Yellowstone and Zion National Park which are beautiful, but they also cover and protect the human footprint that our ancestors have left us. Which these sites tell a story of our past.

Ben: As you go through the different historic sites you sort of start to connect pieces of history and it sort of-- once you pull on one piece of yarn, the whole thing comes unraveled and you follow this one story and it follows to this other one and this other one after it. And you haven't lived in Kansas your whole life.

Brad: No. I transplanted to Kansas winter of 2020.

Ben: Was that a culture shock for you at all?

Brad: I mean I came out here looking to explore history a little bit further. Like I said I've been to every American Civil War battlefield you could think of on the east coast, so I kind of came out here to take the time and study post-Civil Wa,r the American expansion era and the Plains conflict of the 1860s 1870s.

Ben: Now through that lens of looking at the different historic sites back east and out west, what are your thoughts on Fort Larned?

Brad: Fort Larned is a magnificent place. It is what we would perceive to be an actual military post of the 1850s to up to the 1870s and so on. As you watch many older TV shows or movies you always see the fort as a spiked wood surrounding a building which is not true unless it's Fort Necessity in Pennsylvania. But it-- this actually-- it it's a piece of American history from basically from the 18th century to the 20th century it fits right in the middle there that 19th century time period of American expansion west. So you have the Santa Fe Trail here which the fort was built to protect so you have this fort almost in pristine condition, the buildings the restoration here is great. I mean there's a lot of forts in Kansas that are unfortunately don't even exist anymore. They were all dismantled after the military left their post in 1880s.

Ben: Yeah, we're certainly very fortunate to have what we do and we owe a great deal of that to the-- those that had as a ranch and inadvertently preserved what was here.

Carter: What made you come back to reenacting?

Brad: Well I've always basically done it, it just I went from one time period and focused on another time period and since I'm out this way I'm kind of searching for any time period to kind of get back involved with. It's very few and far between here.

Carter: What got you into it into the first place?

Brad: Always had a passion for American history. For some reason, as was a child I got into it and when I grew up I lived a half hour from Valley Forge National Park which is a fascinating place which also tells a great story just like Fort Larned does. And I lived about 90 miles from Gettysburg National Battlefield so, it's just fascinating to go there and just as a kid look at all these cannons and monuments but then as you progress in your age and you can just study every individual monument, that's dedicated on that battlefield.

Ben: I think for me too growing up not too far away from Saratoga that was a big part of my interest in history is I was able to touch it and that's especially in your younger years when names and dates and all that are kind of broad things to wrap your mind around but to have a place that you can go to and read these monuments and picture where these people were I think it creates that connection.

Brad: Definitely with the preservation efforts that the-- a lot of the trust organizations and the National Park Service have done is you can actually almost just for example like Fort Larned here, if you look right you look like you are in the 1860s. I mean it is that well preserved and beyond it looks-- the Prairie still there for the most part. I mean you get that you just put yourself in somebody's shoes in 1868 and say this is what this place look like it's just like what the preservation at Shiloh National Battlefield or Gettysburg, you can almost traverse that that landscape and just try to figure out the who's and what's and where and why put yourself there 160 years later. It's amazing.

Carter: And that's one thing I'll probably always be jealous about, well at least a little bit. So growing up here I knew that we had a fort, I didn't really know much about it until I really had the drive to come in. Like you guys were able to grow up kind of around a lot of American History so you have the Revolutionary War, you have the 13 colonies, you have everything and hopefully someday I can go over there and try to experience some of that. But you do have a lot here.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Brad: You got the Butterfield Wagon Trail, you got the Santa Fe Trail, you got the every-- you just got all kinds of stuff and there's it's there it's just unfortunately it's not well promoted or preserved.

Carter: Yeah, and I'll never not be grateful for where I've grown up and what I've grown up with, but I would definitely like to get a good twist on what you guys got to experience through growing up around so much of that big stuff as I'm sure like with you wanting to study out here growing up around here helps with that a lot.

Brad: And just think of-- you're right smack in the middle of the country so you're just a couple hours' drive away from everything. I've done it this last year; I've been to Vicksburg and Shiloh all within a matter of two months. So you're right in the middle, it's just a drive away if you have a weekend and park the car get out take it on foot and interpret everything you can, every detail.

Ben: And that goes really for anyone in the country. I mean you're not too far away from historic sites no matter where you are so definitely taking a look at what those places have to offer whether they're National Park Service sites or other. But yeah we're fortunate to have what we do and I'm glad we're able to bring in folks like you to help interpret the story here.

Brad: Well thank you for having me.

Ben: Thanks for coming here and thanks for showing your perspective and we hope to see you back here more and more.

Brad: Well thank you very much, look forward to it.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright, here we have Hannah from Kansas. I think all our guests today here are from Kansas. But here we have a unique perspective of someone who has not only been to the Fort but also involved in behind the scenes a little bit. So how's it going today?

Hannah: It's going good, it's hot.

Ben: It is, yeah. So, this episode is set to air I believe in March, so I know I'm looking forward to the cooler weather, but I know once we get to March, I'm going to be complaining about how cold it is.

Hannah: Not me.

Ben: But yeah, so you were you were just telling me that you've-- been a while since-- it's been since you've been out here.

Hannah: About 13 years. When the last time we came was when my oldest was seven and she's now 20 and part of the Fort, so it's pretty neat to see that.

Ben: Now you're also involved with our friends group The Old Guard.

Hannah: Yes, I'm the treasurer and secretary.

Ben: Awesome.

Hannah: Yeah, that's been-- it's been a lot of fun.

Ben: So what encouraged you to become part of The Old Guard and become more involved in this site?

Hannah: So I got-- I recently was hired, well it's been about a year, to the Santa Fe Trail Association, I'm the office admin. And made some connections and the opening came available to be a treasurer and they said would you like, it I said sure that's pretty exciting. So that's ended up bringing in my oldest so that's how she was involved in being a reenactor so it's been a lot of been a lot of fun. Tried to get the other children involved and it's been a little too hot, so.

Ben: No, one thing that we often hear from a lot of people in the area is they're like, oh I've lived here for x amount of years and have never visited. And so not that I'm trying to say how dare you or anything like that but what sort of--

Hannah: Well I think our lives get too busy and we don't bother to look into our history. So recently I found out-- I'm from Cimmaron, Kansas -- recently found out my house is like a block down where the Cimmaron Ranch used to be at the Cimmaron Crossing Park.

Ben: Oh wow.

Hannah: I'm literally a stones throw away from it. So that was totally exciting when I came across that because I'm helping design the rest of the Santa Fe Trail Association website page. And so I was adding things on there and I was like, no way! It's pretty cool, yeah. I had no idea so I think it's you know us parents need to be a little more vocal about our history and getting our children out there and checking it out, so.

Ben: And seeing what's in our own backyards.

Hannah: Yeah, definitely.

Ben: And I've seen that although it's a drawback with the higher gas prices, it impacts visitation Park Service wide but what I've noticed is it more and more in the last couple years we've seen more and more local people because they're looking for things in their own backyard, things that don't take--

Hannah: Get out there and do it, yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

Hannah: Well and the to go see the ruts that's I mean that's free, today is free, so sure yeah check it out.

Ben: That's what's wonderful about having a fee free site is--

Hannah: Yeah, definitely nowadays.

Ben: We'll get people coming in they're like, how much do I have to pay? And it's like absolutely nothing.

Hannah: You could visit the gift shop if you want to spend a little money and get a souvenir, but yeah that's pretty neat.

Carter: I think we've honestly been pretty fortunate to get so many locals in. I think a big thing with that you have like Kansas Kids Fitness Day. So we get a lot of third graders in and I helped out with some third graders this year. And I was able to give them a talk because they were talking about the fort for a while, so they came out and they're like, oh my gosh it's Carter look he's even dressed too. So I'm out there holding a camera dressed as a soldier. I guess a bunch of them had like gone home and told their families about it and it was unfortunate because it was all in days that I was off, but they came in with their family and came and came through the fort. I know one of them did a Junior Ranger program cuz he told me about it. So it's really cool that being able to get to the kids and get them interested in stuff like this and then that kind of gets the whole family drawn in.

Hannah: Well and the Fort Larned-- The Old Guard has a program where they'll reimburse schools that bring their kids, and if they attend they'll reimburse their gas. So that's pretty neat.

Ben: Yeah, working with school groups it's fun to see the passion in in some of the kids. Usually there's one or two kids that you almost have to say hold your questions till later we'll-- I love answering questions but sometimes you get you-- like we got a schedule to keep. So obviously your oldest doing stuff out here brought you out. Do you think you'd be coming out regardless?

Hannah: She asked me if I would I would be part of the kitchen staff and at the moment in the heat, no. But if in the winter, I think that'd be kind of fun, it's been a lot of-- it's been eye opening to walk through and see some of the buildings but have you guys in here definitely gives it a new perspective. So maybe. I'm better behind the scenes I don't like a lot of attention, so. I'll take pictures and stuff.

Ben: Now from a visitor's perspective as someone who's grown up in the area and right down the road, what does a resource like Fort Larned mean to you?

Hannah: So I also do a little bit of a genealogy, that's-- it's also helped because a lot of our ancestors are from the area. One of our-- one of the founding fathers from Pawnnee Rock is great great grandfather. Great great great grandfather, whatever it is. But yes, so we are tied to the area, so to come out and look at the Fort and know some of my ancestors were involved is pretty neat and it's nice to have that tie to the community. Especially something as cool as this.

Ben: And to know that they saw these--

Hannah: Yeah it's--

Ben: These buildings and all that.

Hannah: Possibly a soldier and--

Ben: Well we thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective and thank you for your work that you do behind the scenes for the Fort and hope to see you out here more and more.

Hannah: Sure, sounds good.

[Whoosh]

Ben: And here we have Isaac and Mary from Kansas. And they're visiting for our Labor Day weekend and Isaac is working on his Junior Ranger book right now. How are you guys doing today?

Mary: Great, thank you.

Isaac: Good!

Ben: How's the Junior Ranger program coming along?

Isaac: Pretty good, but I still haven't finished the entire book yet, so.

Ben: Working on it.

Isaac: I have some work to do.

Ben: Nice. Have you done any other Junior Ranger programs?

Isaac: 23, 24.

Ben: Nice!

Carter: Whoa! That's a lot more than I have.

Ben: So in taking a look at Fort Larned, hearing from both of you, especially as you're looking through the Junior Ranger program, what are your thoughts on Fort Larned? What do you-- what did you think when you first got here and what do you think after you explored a little bit?

Isaac: Well I didn't think too much about it, I just thought oh it was going to be like some buildings with beds and blasters in it but when I got here I found it was much more.

Ben: Yeah.

Carter: I like the sound of that.

Mary: I'm impressed with overall the historical accuracy and how the buildings and the rooms are set up to really see what it would have looked like in the period that the Fort was active and operating.

Isaac: Me too.

Ben: The goal that we have is to sort of represent what the Fort looked like as if the Army just left and just left everything here. Of course, over the years with it becoming a ranch and things like that, things changed so we had to bring it back to what it looks like today. But yeah, being able to represent what looked like when the Army was here is really our goal. So, what has been your favorite part of the Junior Ranger program so far?

Isaac: I liked the one where you have where you have the word key that you need to solve.

Ben: That is fun. It's got a got a little story with it too, right? Now have you guys been here before is this your first time here?

Isaac: For me this is my first time.

Mary: Same.

Ben: So what motivated you to come this weekend and check this out?

Isaac: Well my school has a 3-day weekend so we have plenty of time to get to lots of different places and the fact that we as a family love coming to National Parks and historic sites and places like that.

Mary: Yeah, we're national parks travelers. Over a 3-day weekend we realized we haven't really done the Kansas, the local parks. We've done Tall Grass Prairie but we haven't done the historic sites and so we just wanted to take a weekend and kind of tour the Western Kansas sites. Spend some time as a family together on the long weekend.

Ben: Yeah, and you picked a fantastic weekend to do it with all the events and living historians that we have here and--

Isaac: I even have the Junior Ranger National Park Geek patch.

Ben: Oh coo, that's awesome!

Mary: And we got to see the artillery being let off and we got to hear about women on the-- in the fort and so we did, we got to see a lot of cool stuff today.

Ben: Glad you're taking advantage of our programs and--

Carter: With how much you guys have learned today, do you think you'll come back out here again?

Isaac: Yes.

Mary: Yeah.

Isaac: Very much, yes.

Carter: I like the sound of that.

Mary: I think we'd like to come out with his grandparents. His grandfather is retired from the Army and I think he would really enjoy it.

Carter: We hope to see you guys back out here again sometime.

Mary: Thank you.

Ben: Yeah. Do you have any questions for us?

Isaac: How long have you been making podcasts?

Ben: So this is actually our first season of the podcast. We have one episode out right now but we're working on season 1 which is going to focus on Fort Larned's past, present, and future and we're going to have two episodes each for each little tidbit. So we'll have two episodes on the past, two episodes on the present, and two episodes on the future. And then this episode that we're recording now is a bonus episode, sort of bringing that all together and getting the visitors and volunteers perspective. We've heard from a couple of our volunteers today now a couple of our visitors and some others that that work behind the scenes to help the fort too, so. We're looking to tell a more complete story of the fort and we're hoping that through the podcast that we can do that. So this is a little bit of a new adventure for us but we're hoping we can continue this and we're hoping this will air March of 2024. So it'll be the last episode of the season.

Mary: I had a question for you since you're a Ranger. I know that, you know, our understanding is as a Ranger you can make choices about where you go and why you want to be a Ranger at a specific site, so what made you choose this site.

Ben: So it was a bit of chance. So I've always wanted to work for the Park Service and the advice that was given to me early on was take the first permanent position that's offered to you because you don't know when the next one's going to come. And it just so happened that this is the first permanent position offered to me. So I accepted it and that was in 2019 so I've been here ever since. Fell in love with the story with the people here and everything that we have in this amazing resource. And so it was by-- it wasn't I want to go to Fort Larned, but I want to work for the Park Service and then once I got here I really fell in love with everything here. Well thank you for coming in today thank you for doing the Junior Ranger program and thank you for adding your two cents to the perspective here and we hope to see you back here again.

Mary: Thank you for inviting us to be on your podcast.

Ben: Certainly.

Isaac: Thank you.

[Whoosh]

Carter: Alright, we want to say thank you for listening to this episode today to all of our listeners and supporters it was a really, really good episode today.

Ben: It was, I really enjoyed it. Now be sure to check out our social media. We are on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, also be sure to check out our website we have a lot of great resources for you on there as well.

Carter: And if you already follow us or if you are just now following us, make sure to also give a follow to Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve.

Ben: Another one of the National Parks in Kansas. They have some great content and they have some great-- they're a National Preserve but they're also a historic site as well. But we want to thank you again for taking a listen to this episode and we hope you have a great day.

Carter: And we'll see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Host: Ranger Ben Long Co-Host: Intern Carter Atteberry Description: As the culmination of Season 1 where we looked at Fort Larned's Past, Present, and Future, in this episode, we hear from a few volunteers and visitors to get their perspective on Fort Larned, how it tells the story of the past, how it's preserved today, and how we hope to keep in around for generations to come.

February 3, 2024

6. Fort Larned's Future (Part 2)

Transcript

[Footsteps Intro Music Plays]

Ranger Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. I'm your host Ranger Ben and in this season we are taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today is the finale where we're looking at part two of Fort Larned's future. Co-hosting with me today is our volunteer Emma. How's it going today?

Emma Thompson: It's going good.

Ben: Now as we kick this off why don't you to tell us a little bit about yourself, what got you involved with the fort, and what you've been doing since you've started volunteering here?

Emma: Alright, well my name is Emma and I'm a senior at Larned High School. I've lived here for about 11 years now, it's actually my second time living here. And I remember coming out to the fort as a-- like a little girl like either with my parents or through the school and I remember just-- I loved being out here kind of being away from like the town and social media and I-- it's kind of weird but I love the smell of the bridge. Like it's just so nostalgic and I just fell in love with it so when I got into High School, in my sophomore year I joined FCCLA and then they had like this volunteer opportunity to come out to the fort for the Candlelight Tour and I was like oh this is really cool I haven't been out there in years and I think it just be a great opportunity and I I'm a big fan of History I love learning. So I came out here it was a little rough cuz it was my first time but I really loved it and then so I came back my junior year, the following year to volunteer again for the Candlelight Tour and then that same year I was inducted into National Honor Society and I was like oh man I really got to get these 50 hours. So I was like well what can I do and I thought about it and then I saw a post where you were looking for volunteers. So it's like okay this is a great opportunity because I love history and I'm also going to get my hours in so it's a win-win situation. So I got in contact with you around December, January and then I came out here pretty consistently for a while doing a little bit of living history, kind of learning about the fort's background and its story, but also working on the social media posts. Summer of my Junior year, I kind of dropped off the face of the Earth. Just got so busy and then this year has been very hectic and I miss coming out here.

Ben: As we get into this episode our interview today is with our friends group the Fort Larned Old Guard's Chair Kristin Keith. It was a really fun interview learning about the Old Guard, their plans for the future, and also ways that they've helped us out. We've touched on it in previous episodes but hearing more about the Village Site and their plans for the future and hopefully giving it to the National Park Service, that was probably one of my favorite parts of the episode.

Emma: It was great to learn, I learned a lot of things. Yeah cuz I never heard of it before and then she started talking about I was like oh like I really didn't know that that's really cool.

Ben: And for it to be such an integral part of our nation's history too and it's right in our backyard.

Emma: Yeah!

Ben: Well we enjoyed interviewing Kristin and we also hope you enjoy taking a listen, so here you go.

[Whoosh]

Ben: So welcome Kristin, how's it going today?

Kristin Keith: I'm great, thanks for having me.

Ben: Great to have you on. You are unique in that you are the first non-National Park Service employee to be a guest on this podcast.

Kristin: Well thanks for having me and I guess I'm okay with being classified as unique.

Ben: So as you know this season we're looking at Fort Larned's past, present, and future and today we're wrapping up Fort Larned's future. But as we get into that why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself what drew you to get involved at the Fort and sort a little bit about your story.

Kristin: Sure! I'm Kristin Keith, I grew up here in Larned, I've been married for 32 years for a guy I met in fifth grade. We had our first official date at a Junior High, cuz back then it was called Junior High you know not Middle School, a Junior High dance and the rest is history I guess that was 32 years. His name is Joel, he works for Innovative Livestock Services. We have three kids. Joelle who's a nurse practitioner, her significant other works for the sheriff's department. Joelle has a son, Ridge, who is not spoiled at all of course since he's the only grandchild. And then my middle son is Brady, he is an English teacher and a head football coach at the High School here in Larned, his wife Lindsey works in the social media marketing business. My youngest Colby is a free spirit, he works in Canada half the year as a hunting guide and then has his own taxidermy business here in Kansas and his wife Dava is a librarian. So that's my family like I said I grew up here in Larned. When I was in high school I was one of those kids that loved history but didn't really tell anybody about that. When the history teacher would give extra credit I would of course silently do all of the extra credit, not because I needed the points, but because I thought it was really fun. But I didn't tell anybody but I also loved literature and writing so when I went to college that's what I studied, I studied English literature. Went to Wichita State for two years and then transferred to Southwestern College which is a private college in Winfield. Which I really enjoyed that. After college I taught for several years first at Cowley County Community College then moved back here to Larned, taught at Larned High School and Barton County for a few years. And then I decided to change careers, which was more in line with the history side of my interest. So I got into the antique business, started doing antique shows which then that became the estate sale business which I'm currently doing now. When I did switch careers I started going to lots of auctions of course to pick up items to sell at antique shows, and I met a guy named George Elmore at the auction. And we would visit and after a while he picked up on my interest in history and said hey you should come volunteer at the Fort. Well at that time our boys were very heavily involved in sports and so we traveled a lot and all our weekends were spent you know at the baseball field or basketball court or football field, so it just didn't work out then. But once everybody was out of the house, I came out filled out the paperwork, my first experience as a volunteer was over a Memorial Day weekend. There was a ranger here at that time Ellen Jones. She said I think you should try some living history as an officer's wife on officer's row. And I thought well sure you know I'll do anything. So she dressed me out and put me in a building and said and it's best if you can do this first person and I thought oh you know I'd never had any experience I was never in drama or anything like that in high school or college. So I said okay I'll give it a shot and she briefly told me a story about the home that I was in which happened to belong to Captain Nicholas Nolan and just kind of threw me in the deep end and I absolutely fell in love with it. The solitude and the landscape out here, the people, not only the staff but the other volunteers and then of course the visitors. Which is absolutely amazing, you meet people not only from all over the state but all over the country and even the world. So it's such a neat experience and then of course fell in love with all the clothes. But most importantly I fell in love with Nicholas Nolan's story and his wife's story out here it's an amazing story. So that's how I got involved and then it's just grown from there.

Ben: So how long ago was that that you started?

Kristin: Oh, seven, eight years ago maybe.

Ben: So that obviously evolved into getting involved with Old Guard and the reason that we chose you to speak on today's podcast-- or to be a guest on today's podcast is because you're the current Chair of the Old Guard. So I you to tell us a little bit about the Fort Learned Old Guard and about your involvement in-- I guess your evolution of your involvement over the years.

Kristin: It was a very quick evolution. Several years ago, they were looking for another board member and George talked to me about it and I agreed. I had never really heard anything about the Old Guard, so I thought wow this is a really great organization it's just another step and how I can help out here. So I joined the board and then somehow very quickly I ended up as Chair. I don't know how that happened or what they were thinking, but I really, I really enjoy the organization. It's a great organization.

Emma: So I guess I've never really heard of it until a couple of years ago, so I don't really know exactly what it does, could you elaborate on that?

Kristin: Of course. So most National Parks have what's called a friends group and the Fort Larned Old Guard is the friends group here for Fort Larned. We are a 501c3 which is a nonprofit organization and friends groups kind of help with what-- things that are out of the scope of what the park can do for itself. So our mission is to help preserve, restore, and interpret the cultural and historical resources out here, so we just kind of help fill in the gaps. We've bought artifacts, we help with some programs, and things like that. So the artifacts that we have purchased, we purchased a sword that belonged to Frank Baldwin, we purchased the 3rd Infantry rifle, a Colt revolver that belonged to Nicholas Nolan, that was about a year and a half ago. And when we came across that you know I got super excited because I'm so into his story and it was like I'd come across it-- well I didn't come across it but George I think had found it through a mutual friend but it felt like you know my family heirloom was coming back home here to Fort Larned when we got that. We've also purchased a Rucker Ambulance and had that restored and then there were a couple of Native American litho prints that we had had commission to sell. So those are the main things that we've done out here.

Ben: When Nolan's revolver came up and that sort of came across I was-- I remember talking with George about that and I was like this is this is cool that I mean it's out there that we have this this piece of Nolan's history that's there and the next correspondence I got from George was the Old Guard's getting it for us. That was awesome.

Kristin: Absolutely, it was super exciting.

Ben: Now all those things you listed so the rifle, the revolver, the sword, and the ambulance people can see when they come here.

Kristin: Yes.

Ben: So we've got actually Frank Baldwin's sword and Nolan's revolver in the same case in our museum and then the 3rd Infantry rifle just few steps away from that and then the ambulance sort of hangs out in our Shops building at the moment.

Kristin: Yeah and so we're always looking for things with provenance or a story that's somehow connected to Fort Larned whether it be an object that was here, something that belonged to a soldier that was here. So we're always looking for things, so if any of the listeners ever come across anything let us know.

Emma: Well how do you come across these things? Is there like a like a marketplace for it or just through people?

Kristin: Through people, word of mouth. I mean I'm always looking on eBay you know to see if I would just happen to see something but word of mouth. With reenactors just people who are excited about history and the story out here.

Ben: So it's not just artifacts and things like that that the Old Guard provides, you also help support us for events and things like that. Can you explain a little bit about the Old Guard's involvement with not only Mess and Muster our sort of cooperative event, but how you support other events as well?

Kristin: Sure. So our-- I think everyone's favorite event that we're involved in out here is Mess and Muster which is a yearly membership meeting with programs centered around a certain theme. And it's always the last-- most of the time it's the last Saturday of April. So the day starts off with a board meeting of course we have to get, you know, business out of the way but then the rest of the day is filled with programs and demonstrations. And then in the evening, there's a meal, a general meeting, and then we have a main speaker that comes in or a program. This year our Mess and Muster will center around the Cheyenne-Lakota Village site, so I think it's going to be a great day focusing on a subject we haven't talked about in a while.

Ben: I'm definitely looking forward to that and we've talked about the village site on both the episode with George and with our Superintendent Kevin Eads, so for those listening if you haven't checked those out definitely check those episodes out as well. Can you talk a little bit about the Village site and the Old Guard's involvement in that and hopefully getting it to National Historic Landmark status?

Kristin: Sure. So the short story-- it's a long story, but the short story is there were some Plains Indians, Cheyenne Lakota, that were camped at a site about 30 miles from Fort Larned and a group of businessmen and newspaper men who thought they might profit from Indian Wars started a rumor that there was going to be an uprising. So among others General Hancock was sent out here with 1,400 men to talk with them and to ensure that nothing like that happened. Well the Plains Indians that were out here and living at that site many of them were survivors of Sand Creek, so they weren't very trusting of course of the military. Some did meet with Hancock but there was a lot of delay tactics being used in order for the inhabitants of that village to escape. Which is what happened, which of course angered Hancock and he ordered that the village be burned, so he burned the village. Which just created all kinds of chaos and basically caused a war that never would have occurred had he not burned that village and misunderstood what was going on. We feel that it's one of the most important Native American sites in Kansas if not the most important site because of what happened afterwards. It was just you know the mistrust of Native Americans even more of the military which just, you know, led to more wars with Indians, so. George Elmore actually pinpointed the site and discovered where it was after a lot of research and that was in 1976. Since then, the Old Guard has taken ownership of it and we've been caring for it. We've put in a parking lot and signage and that kind of thing in hopes of someday that it will transfer to the National Park Service. And that's where we are now, we've just started the process and it's a long, long drawn out process. But you have to have permission from the National Park Service to nominate it as a landmark, and we've sent that letter so that's where we are and we're just in the very beginning of it. And that letter was sent in March of '23 and we haven't heard back yet, but we're hopeful that we will hear back soon so that process can continue. And Kevin Eads has been very helpful with us and also Leo Oliva of course with that process so we're excited about what the future holds out there.

Ben: Yeah, I definitely am too. It's exciting.

Emma: Do you know of any other village sites around Kansas that are trying to do the same thing -- make it into a an actual Park site?

Kristin: There are other landmarks, historic landmarks yes. But again, we feel like we have the best one. We have the one that has the most relevant history to what happened after 1867.

Ben: Yeah, and that was one thing that George mentioned too is Hancock's War, his campaign there in the Spring of 1867 really set the tone for the rest of the Indian Wars the rest of the US Government's handling of the Plains and the Plains States and the Plains Indians who were here already. And it formulated in Custer's mind how the Plains Indian should be handled as well which may have worked against him in the end.

Kristin: Right. Didn't yeah-- he didn't fare well in the end. But yes, he was here during that time also.

Ben: So one thing that I'm sort of curious about, we've been talking about sort of your personal background what's gotten you interested in the fort and all that and a little bit about your role in the Old Guard but for someone who hasn't had experience being a chair of a nonprofit, how would you explain what you do specifically in the Old Guard?

Kristin: Well what we're working on right now and Celeste Dixon, Ranger Dixon is helping me with this is, we're creating a website. We've had a website in the past, we're just updating it so that it's mobile friendly. Kind of bringing us up to date and into the future. So we're currently working on that. We hold two board meetings a year, I'm always looking for projects you know that we might help the fort with, looking for objects, looking for programs, in discussion with you and Kevin and George and other staff members out here. I've spoken to civic groups in town about the Fort of course and our organization, I've done some programs at the library. Just trying to get the word out that there is a friends group out here, that there's always new things going on at the Fort, changes especially when the new museum came in, that if someone hasn't been out you know in 3 months or 6 months or 6 years, it doesn't matter there's always something new and changing out here. Just trying to keep people interested in the story out here so that they can share it with others and the visitation increases. We also have social media page that I help coordinate things on there. So those are the main things.

Ben: In your time of being Chair of the Old Guard is there anything that you learned or has it been enjoyable experience?

Kristin: Oh my goodness, I learn something every day. I would say, you know, I haven't been around very long as a volunteer so my knowledge is limited but it's growing. I-- that's how I like to say. I love that there's resources like George Elmore and Leo Oliva. Just a wealth of knowledge, you know, anytime I have a question those are my go-to people. I learn something all of the time.

Ben: I mentioned that on the episode with Kevin is, I've been here just about every day for the last 4 years-- 4 and a half now, but I'm always learning something every day there's so much to learn here.

Kristin: Sure. I really enjoy like the organizing side of it and the planning side of events, so that's kind of what I feel like my gifts are. The bonus is just learning the history and the stories that's just a definite bonus to it.

Emma: What does the Fort Larned Old Guard hope to teach the younger generation or what would you like to do in the future?

Kristin: So another one of our projects is in conjunction with the Fort, we secure a grant through Open Outdoors for Kids and Celeste Dixon helps us write that grant which provides transportation or bus money for different schools to come here. It is a great program as you know schools are on limited budgets and a lot of them wouldn't be able to take field trips because of the cost of fuel. So we provide that money in order for schools to come out here. I think on average, Ben can help me with this, maybe 20 to 25 schools come a year does that sound?

Ben: That sounds about right, yeah.

Kristin: Right, so our grant money is anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 a year. It actually decreased this year to $5,000 which is actually a good thing, that means that more organizations are applying for that money, so there's more kids who are able to attend a variety of parks. So it's a great thing, it's a great program, it's through the National Park Foundation. The best part of it for me is that I get to help with the school tours out here. It's one of my very favorite things to do. Kids ask the best questions they keep you on your toes. They always ask-- there's always different questions that get asked and then of course some of them ask the same questions every single time. But the schools that come here, they've-- most of them have prepared their kids with a backstory or whatever they're studying in social studies or history so they know a little bit about it. It's just fun though to expose them to see the Fort is so well preserved, it's just an experience that they wouldn't be able to have of course through a textbook or video. But to see the Fort and walk through the buildings and see the objects, and hear the story, it's an amazing experience for them and I'm glad that the Old Guard can help support that.

Emma: Personally when I was younger and in elementary school middle school and we would come out here and I think that's what really made me fall in love with this place at such an early age was being out here with all my classmates and learning and walking through all the buildings.

Kristin: Yes, and when I when I start tours with them I always start by explaining what living history is and that's what I do sometimes and I always make sure that they know that there's special events that go on out here. So, hey if you like this place you know tell your parents about it and have them bring you back for an event and if you're interested you know you can become a volunteer and they get so excited, you know, about the prospect of that because that's also one of the Old Guards goals is to get more young people involved because you know our membership is aging of course like any organization and we've got to bring in not only younger members with our organization but younger volunteers out here because, you know, volunteers out here are aging also and so it's great. Ben's been tremendous asset in bringing new younger volunteers out so it's good that we can all work together towards that same goal.

Ben: If you were able to snap your fingers and make the involvement, mainly volunteers in the Old Guard and the Fort, what would that look like?

Kristin: I would just love to see them number of volunteers that are available to come out here double. It's such an amazing experience for people when they come out on a special event like Memorial Day. When you can feel like you have stepped back in time and see what life was really like when the buildings are staffed with women over on Officers' Row and men in the Barracks and men out on the Parade Ground, you go into the hospital and there a Steward and a Surgeon and maybe a Matron and, you know, then you go over to the Shops building and there's a baker you know making bread and somebody in the Wood Shop and Pete Bethke or, you know, a volunteer working in the Blacksmith Shop. The fort really comes to life, and I mean that's the whole idea for people when they come out on special events is to experience that and feel like you've stepped back in time and can feel and smell and see what life was like back then. So you know if we can help encourage people to become volunteers by just making sure people are comfortable. You know, you don't have to have a vast knowledge of the story here, there are so many different people who can tell you whatever it is you want to know or need to know and you can just learn a little bit at a time. So you don't have to have experience you don't have to have the clothes. There's a closet full of clothes out here especially for women and soldiers so that's provided. And if you don't, you know, living history isn't your thing, there's lots of other volunteer opportunities with maintenance and working in the museum, in the visitor center, there's something for everyone to get involved. You know, if you want to start out with living history but you're nervous my advice would be to help with Candlelight-- the Candlelight Tour which happens I think it's the second Saturday in October every year. Because it's dark and no one knows who you are, they just hear voices you know. And if you don't want to speak you don't have to you get to experience it. My husband, who I've convinced to volunteer out here, his first experience was with Candlelight. And maybe I shouldn't tell this story but I'm going to go ahead and tell this story. But he was very adamant that he not have a speaking part and George said oh that's fine you know we'll just put you over in the barracks and you can play cards or checkers you know as they would have done in the evening. And about 30 minutes before start time one of the main characters over in the hospital we found out he was unable to come and I didn't know all this cuz I was in a different scene than Joel and I was preparing my scene but George says hey we need someone to play this part of an injured teamster with a broken leg and he walked into the barracks and it was Joel and I think some Boy Scouts volunteering maybe some high school kids. Their heads dropped down of course so Joel's like okay. So he went over there and stepped way out of his comfort zone and really played the part well, I hear. Which I didn't know any of this was going on and then afterwards I kept hearing oh my gosh that guy was so funny with the broken leg and then I figured out it was Joel, I absolutely could not believe it. So the point of this story is you don't know what you're capable of or what you might end up really enjoy doing until you know you give it a shot. But that doesn't happen very often you know if you want to sit and play cards and the barracks for Candlelight you know that's always an option. But it-- that's a great place to start is that event.

Ben: It is. Yeah, I remember the first time I met Joel at my first candle light tour in 2019. He was a cook over in the Barracks. The real life soldier that I was playing was not a model soldier at all, refusing orders and creating ruckus and things like that and I felt bad half the time yelling at him and I think at the beginning of it I just sort of went up to him and like just you know this is who I'm playing I'm not like this I swear. But yeah no it's always fun at Candlelight and it's fun to make the Fort come to life in that unique way and that is really a unique event for us.

Kristin: And I also want to emphasize that the people that you get to meet at those events have so many fun stories and are so interesting. You know, we all have a common interest in history of course but people, you know, have all different backgrounds and from-- come in from different states and areas in the country and it's-- I've met the most amazing people doing this. So that's just another bonus to being out here is getting to know people who've become like family, you know, who are, you know, a little nerdy like me and enjoy that. You know, we all have a safe zone out here where we can be ourselves and it's really fun.

Emma: To volunteer out here I know you came out here with no experience. Do you think that was easier or do you think it would be easier if people came in with experience?

Kristin: I don't think it matters, cuz I think there's a place for every everyone. You know, Ben is very good at helping the men that come out here or you know the high school volunteers find a place where they fit. And I think that's true of any women that want to volunteer. You know, if you're not comfortable being an officer's wife you can be a laundress, I mean there's a new volunteer Liz that-- she's just found her place and she's over in the schoolhouse. So I think that you just, whatever you're interested in, you'll find your niche here with what you're comfortable doing.

Ben: Yeah and that's what-- whenever I have any ladies that might be interested in getting started or anything like that, no matter what role they're sort of aiming towards, I always try to find someone-- and usually it's you that they can sort of hang around and get an idea of what talking to the visitors looks like and some of the stories and how to answer some of the questions. Because on officers row you really are some of the first people that our visitors see even before they get to the Visitor Center and so they still have some of those basic questions that they want answered before they get to the Visitor Center and before they get to see the rest of the programs and things like that that we might have going on.

Kristin: Right, there's so many mentors that are available to help you and bounce ideas off of, ask questions. There's all kinds of people.

Ben: Now we've talked a little bit about the Old Guard's vision for attaining new artifacts and the goal with the village site, is there anything else in the future that you and the Old Guard have your sight set on?

Kristin: I'll just speak for myself. My dream project would be to rebuild the Cavalry Stables which is a very lofty goal I know. And I'm sorry Chappie if you're going to be hearing that cuz I know you made a comment about that in your episode. But I've also visited a little bit with Celeste about the project that you two are currently working on with the visual of the Laundress Quarters and the stables and I think that's definitely something that the Old Guard could help with when that project gets going. So I'm excited about that, you know, what we could do to help make that happen.

Ben: Yeah we might not have the physical Laundress Quarters in the window to the past or we might not have the physical Cavalry Stables in the augmented reality but at least we'll have it represented almost in real time.

Kristin: Right, so people can at least get a sense of what it looked like.

Ben: And if you want to see a physical structure of what our tables looked like, Fort Scott, their Dragoon Stables there have the exact blueprint as the Cavalry Stables would have had here. We just need to copy and paste.

Kristin: Yeah.

Emma: I guess a good question for anyone wanting to become a volunteer is like who do they need to talk to and what would their roles be at the Fort?

Kristin: So you'll need to come out to the Fort and get a volunteer packet -- just some paperwork to fill out that shows you're interested. And then visit with George or Celeste or Ben, any of those people can get you started and help you figure out what it is maybe that you want to do. I also want to mention that Ben is trying to put a band together so if for any musicians listening that's also another opportunity that would be really fun and it'll be a great addition to what's going on out here. So I think that's the place to start is just come out, look around talk to people, and then fill out that paperwork.

Ben: And don't be scared it's literally two pages of paperwork. We don't give you like a two inch stack of paperwork.

Kristin: No, correct.

Ben: So I guess as we wrap up, one question we've been asking each of our guests is how can our listeners, whether they're local or whether they're not, how can listeners help with your role here at the Fort and your role in the Old Guard.

Kristin: The main thing is just come out and visit the park often. If you're unable to do that, follow the social media pages, Ben does a great job with the Fort's page. Follow the Old Guard page, we would love to have people become a member of the Old Guard. Financial support is huge because that's what allows us to do the projects that we're involved in and find those artifacts to bring out here and there's a range of membership fees anywhere from $35 on up -- there are lifetime memberships available. Another thing that I would really like to see for the Old Guard is to find someone who has experience and knowledge or even willing to learn how to do grant writing, I think that would be huge for our organization and would open up a lot of doors and opportunities for what we would be able to do out here at Fort Larned. Tell your friends, tell your neighbors, when you visit the fort or if you see something going on encourage others to come out here. Let your local schools know that there are funds available for them to bring their students out here to experience it firsthand and we can help arrange that. That's what I would say just spread the word that Fort Larned is here and it has an amazing story that we want to continue to share.

Ben: Well with that, thank you very much for coming on and telling a little bit about yourself, the Old Guard, and the plans for the future.

Kristin: Thank you, thanks for having me, I've enjoyed it.

Ben: Have a good one.

Kristin: You too.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright well thank you for taking a listen and thank you for listening to this finale of our season we do have a bonus episode coming up the first Saturday of March so if you're listening to this before then, make sure you take a listen to that one in the future. Thank you again for taking a listen if you don't already follow us on social media we are on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, also check out our website we have some great resources for you there.

Emma: You should also support the Fort Larned Old Guard's website and Facebook page.

Ben: Yeah, they have some wonderful content on there not just stuff that we post on our own social media but they got some unique stuff going on too that you want to make sure you keep up on. Make sure you leave us a rating and review if you enjoy taking a listen be sure to share it with your friends and family.

Emma: And we will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

[Footsteps Outro Music Plays]

Host: Ranger Ben Long Co-host: Volunteer Emma Thompson Guest: Friends Group Chair, Kristin Keith Description: As the Chair of the Fort’s Friends Group: the Fort Larned Old Guard, Kristin Keith helps lead the Old Guard to fill in some gaps in funding, projects, and acquisitions that the park is unable to fulfill on its own. Join us as we discuss the plans for the Village site, Fort Larned’s future, and the Old Guard’s role in it all.

January 6, 2024

5. Fort Larned's Future (Part 1)

Transcript

[Footsteps intro music plays]

Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast, I'm your host Ranger Ben and this season we are taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today is part one on Fort Larned's future. Today I'm joined by our volunteer Canvas Lovesee. How's it going today?

Canvas Lovesee: It's going pretty good. How are you?

Ben: Doing well. Now as we get started why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, what drew you to volunteer at Fort Larned, how long you've been doing it.

Canvas: My name's Canvas, obviously. Grown up in Kansas around this area my whole life. Started volunteering at Fort Larned through a high school fax club that comes out every year for our October event: Candlelight Tour. Really started becoming a primary volunteer last October of 2022. I mean really just the history, the people out here keep coming me back I've always learned something every single time out here. So, just learning and being able to represent something from history and help preserve it is really something that I've tried to strive for especially moving forward in my life. That's something I want to do so I mean coming out to the fort is going to help me with that as well and help push me towards a career in the National Parks or towards conservation. So, looking forward to it.

Ben: Absolutely and not only like you said that you learn something new every time you come out here but especially as you've taken a dive into learning about the Hospital Stewards, which we talk about a little bit on the episode, my interpretation of the Hospital has expanded quite a bit, just from learning from you. So that's been awesome.

Canvas: Well you're welcome.

Ben: Thank you! So yeah as we get into the episode one of my favorite parts as with all of our guests this season was just taking a dive into what it takes to do the jobs around here. Today's guest is our Superintendent Kevin Eads. He's been here for about a year and a half now. And so taking a look at his job how he has to look to the future and sort of forward management as he says, that was really cool and that's a big part of what I enjoyed about this episode.

Canvas: I mean definitely that and hearing about how the employees of the park are really what make a park, a park. I mean obviously everything there the historical aspects, the things that make it a national treasure, definitely what make it the actual park but what brings it to life and helps people understand it truly brings people crawling back is definitely the employees. So hearing that too and we definitely dive into that a lot in this episode, so.

Ben: Yeah it was a fun episode, it was a great interview and we hope you enjoy taking a listen.

[Whoosh]

Ben: So welcome Kevin.

Kevin: Good morning.

Ben: How's it going?

Kevin: Good, going good.

Ben: Alright, so as we kick it off as we have with our other guests this season, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your name title, and what other parks you might have worked at.

Kevin: Okay, you bet. So Kevin Eads, I'm the superintendent here at the park and I've been with the National Park Service for right at 33 years. I've been here, it's been a year and a half. Some of the other parks that I worked at has been George Washington Carver National Monument, George Washington's Birthplace, Arkansas Post National Memorial, Pea Ridge National military Park, and then I did a stent at Badlands.

Canvas: More experience than I have, just by a little!

Ben: That's for sure! Yeah so I don't you tell us a little bit about what got you into the Park Service originally and some of your highlights along your journey.

Kevin: You bet! So I first-- I grew up on a farm and didn't know really anything about the Park Service and when I was getting my undergrad there towards the end of that degree, there was a job fair. Several of my friends had gone and they were telling me about it, and there were some job openings. And initially I went they had the Core of Engineers, the US Fish and Wildlife, and the National Park Service. Well I knew about the Core of Engineers and I knew about the Fish and Wildlife. And so we went and all other jobs had already been filled. The National Park Service had a couple of jobs left there and so me and another gentleman went and visited with them and signed up and that's how I got started with the Park Service. So and started off at Carver.

Ben: So you sort of stumbled into it almost.

Kevin: I did, I did. I'm glad I did. You know, 33 years later looking back, it was one of the best decisions that I've made. So, really enjoy the Park Service, the staff.

Ben: So you kind of stumbled into the Park Service in a way, obviously there's something that's kept you here, like you sort of touched on is that the staff or is there is there more to it? What has sort of kept you in the in the National Park Service?

Kevin: Again my background, grew up on a farm my degrees are in Biology: Wildlife Biology, Forest Resources. So the parks that I went to you know it was a new world whether it was at Carver, George Washington's Birthplace, Arkansas Post, each one had their own unique resources whether that was natural resources, cultural resources. But you know along the way, meeting the people and being able to work with and learn from them was the most satisfying. And that's kind of what kept me in. I had people all along the way that took me under their wing, they mentored me I learned from them and it's been a wonderful experience.

Ben: Yeah and that was something that we sort of touched on in the last episode with Tyler our Carpenter and our Volunteer Lynn mentioned that she sort of realized that the National Park Service is not this-- not only this great place for these great resources, be that cultural or natural, but it's also this gathering place of historic techniques and I'm guessing in that scientific techniques as well. And all these different things that you might not necessarily find elsewhere but then you can learn from while you're working in the Park Service, so.

Kevin: Absolutely, yeah.

Ben: That's really cool. So have you had in your time going through these different parks, I know it's tough to find one of your I guess favorites or highlight park but would you say you have one?

Kevin: I love being here, I love this park. Just as I loved each of the other parks, each one is unique -- that's why they're a National Park. You know with them being unique in their own right and then at the time of life that I was at each one of those parks, each one of them special. They're all my favorite park.

Ben: Now when visitors come in and ask me if I have a favorite park that I've worked at, I give pretty much a similar answer that. Each one has its own gem that you start to appreciate after working there for even for a few months. As we sort of continue in to the episode, into your work here what sort of drew you to the position here and what is been your highlight since you've started working here for a year and a half now?

Kevin: I've always kept an eye on Fort Larned. Part of the reason it's closer to where I grew up. Right out of college, got married the same day we graduated and then shortly thereafter we went to Virginia. It's been a journey the whole way. With Fort Larned, with Kansas itself I really enjoy the landscape, the history that's here. Growing up when I did, you know you see all the western movies. And so I think that was ingrained from birth pretty much. And getting to work in an area that has the history that Fort Larned does as well as the natural resources is this what first drew here. It's one of the things that I really like about the park about the area. The other thing that I really like about this area is the people -- very friendly, they help you out, they visit with you. I mean it's that's a wonderful component.

Ben: Now when I initially asked again going back to Tyler, I had asked him when he came back under his project funding initially, I asked him what drew him back to Fort Larned, he said the people. Yeah we have a very friendly work group here and not only that, the community too.

Kevin: Yes.

Ben: Very welcoming.

Canvas: Very small town community like everyone's willing to help everyone so, definitely a good thing.

Kevin: Yeah. The other thing I like about this area is the amount of dirt roads you can drive and not have to cross pavement for a very long time if you want to.

Canvas: Or you'll come cross pavement way quicker than you think you are going to.

Kevin: Well yeah that too. Or you end up in a field where the road just dead ends.

Canvas: Is there any park in particular that if you would want to work at you would prefer to like work at there. Not really prefer but is there a park in general that if you could get the chance to work at, you would take it.

Kevin: You know, being able to work here like I said it's, I've kept my on Fort Larned for a very long time. This would have been one of those parks-- is one of those parks. You know, I've never really wanted to work at the Grand Canyons or the Yellowstones or-- I like the small parks, I like the staff. Everybody's got to work together -- there are no strangers. No single park comes to mind. I like it here, I really do.

Ben: That's interesting, in talking about small parks and you did at Badlands. I myself personally enjoy the small parks and I've loved my career and especially working here. So how was that going from your experience in small parks, how is that going to a bigger park and was that much of an adjustment?

Kevin: You know really it wasn't. So the stent there it was a-- I was acting Deputy Superintendent, lived there on a park. But the staff were from, for the most part, from the area or they lived on the park. I still got that same sense of Park Service community. So in that respect no it wasn't it wasn't different. The time of year in which I was there I was there through the summer and then the fall. The visitation was extremely high. That I had to get used to. But the evening and the mornings, the landscape is very similar to here, minus the hills, but other than that no. The visitation would have been the biggest difference. But the staff they were amazing, just like they are here and they've been at every other park I've worked at. My entire career for the most part has been small parks.

Ben: And that's something I've noticed too even working seasons at big parks is you sort of-- it may not be the whole park that has a sense of community but you definitely have these pockets of maybe your work group or those that you live around that you definitely sort of form that little community and that that small town mentality almost for a little bit. So getting into what you do here for someone who doesn't necessarily have experience in the Park Service or the command structure if you will, how would you explain what you do here in your position?

Kevin: So I view my position here as primarily trying to facilitate and help the staff do the various functions of their jobs, whatever that may be. Whether it's you know let's identified training so that staff can grow in their position or in desired future positions. It's helping out where I can, whether it's with getting the processes complete, like compliance, working with program managers, things of that nature. And all of that is in an effort to continue to preserve the park and its resources. As we were talking and before we started recording, really if it wasn't for the staff here, we wouldn't be able to for one maintain the buildings and even improve them as they need to be improved, and then to be able to tell the story of Fort. While we do have the resource and that is sort of what we're going towards, that the staff is part of the resource really.

Kevin: Oh yeah, absolutely. You know and I've been asked that question a few times as far as what the most important resource. In a way, it's hard to answer because answer is not what most people expect. You've got your-- every park has got the natural resources, your fish, fields, fur to manage. Every park has its cultural resources to manage. For example, at this park you know we've got part of the cultural resources are the facilities: the buildings. That's what people see initially whenever they come. But you know just in line in my opinion just in line with the natural resources and the cultural resources of any park I've ever worked at another resource that is on par would be the staff -- the employees of that park. Because if they don't care you know if they don't continue to strive to improve that park to tell the story of the park, incorporate their perspectives, then what do you have? Yeah you've got the cultural, natural resources but nobody's protecting them, nobody's preserving them, and so are they going to remain significant and a National Treasure? So the employees are right up there with the natural and cultural if not in my opinion the primary resource.

Canvas: So I mean even going-- adding on to that, having employees too who are willing to help share the story because I mean you could definitely could have some who are still interested in keeping the history and wanting to help preserve it and everything but just getting out and actually telling people this is what happened is definitely something too. And I feel like here we have a very good staff team that does that and volunteers too that are willing to actually come out and say this is what happened in this building, this is the people who were here and actually willing to share it with people whether they want to listen or not, so.

Kevin: Right. I made some notes I'll share with you along these lines. Canvas this is something that you and I had talked about previously. I think one of the questions you had asked is, you know in what ways can the employee change the way people feel and learn about the parks? And to me this is tied into the question you just asked, Ben. You know for employees, it's important that they bring creative and new ideas that engage all components of society and that they consider and present all cultures viewpoints both current and past so that the stories are told from all perspectives sort of that 360 view. And that they strive to identify and then incorporate new technologies whenever possible, because they're continuously changing. I mean look at what we're doing now it's a creative brilliant idea -- a good way to get the stories out and for people to learn to pique their interest.

Canvas: I feel like that's definitely true out here too especially at Fort Larned where the reason why the post is here at all is to help protect people travel on the Santa Fe Trail. And I mean it's against natives except why were the natives being hostile? So when you're looking at that, it's not just don't just tell it from one perspective as to why we're-- oh these people are being hostile towards us we need to build a fort. Look at why are they being hostile towards us which--

Kevin: Right.

Canvas: is really key out here.

Kevin: You know being invaded things of that nature. It's-- you need to be able to tell all perspectives. One of the other things for employees, for me, is it's easier said than done because you can get in a rut right, but never settle for you know, "we've always done it that way." You have to stay self-motivated and continue to push yourself to stay relevant with the changing times. The only constant is nothing is constant. And to you know to push yourself to come up with new ideas. Just like I said with the podcast here but not come up with those ideas only but implement them also, And then just like in life realize that not everything is going to be the way you think it should go. In other words, everything that you try is not going to be successful. That should Inspire us to-- and make us keep pushing, keep moving forward, trying harder, push ourselves beyond what we think we can do. If you're not uncomfortable, just like this, you know I'm uncomfortable in this, but if you're not uncomfortable in in some of the things that you're doing then you're-- you know my question is are you really growing? So it's important for the staff to keep that motivation and keep moving forward for the park to grow, for it to be preserved so and for the staff to grow. Like I said I've been in the Park Service for 33 years, at some point I'm going to retire. The existing staff are going to be in roles of leadership. You know, it's important that they realize that there are a lot of things that they can do and it's-- the key is to stay self-motivated and push themselves.

Ben: I like what you're were saying about if you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing that's something that I try to do that's why I try to do new things. And certainly as we started this podcast I wasn't comfortable doing that but hopefully getting a little better at it. Following that vein of what you do in your role here, of course the theme of this episode is Fort Larned's Future. A lot of what you do deals with what's down the road.

Kevin: Right.

Ben: So I mean while we have the staff here well we have the resource here we want to make sure what we have that's here, here to tell the story of the past but there's obviously things that we need to look to the future for in order to like you said keep improving, keep staying relevant and become better. Still telling in essence the same story, but hopefully tell--

Canvas: In a new light.

Ben: Yeah, telling it a new light. So if you're privy to say some of the things that you're looking for or just in general in the future that that you have to deal with on a daily basis.

Kevin: You hit on one key topic and that's you know to preserve history you have to manage forward and that's not only in buildings, the cultural resources, the natural resources, but also again primarily the staff. For the future of this park, of any park, you know you look to your staff. I do. I have learned more from the staff here than I ever thought I would and that's been the case pretty much in in every park that I've gone to. In my mind, the future of the park is the staff and if that's true then look to the staff and find out you know, what areas do they want to grow in? Do we have enough staff? What needs to be done at the park and then start working towards that. You've got to plan sometimes 3 to 5 years out or further in order to do that. And often times what I'll do is you know think down the road okay what do I need or what do I think the park needs in 5 years or what should it look like in 5 years and then step back. Or at least identify a component and not put a time frame to it. For example you've got a broad question what does the park-- what should the park look like in the future? You've got to identify okay are we going to-- are we talking about buildings, are we talking about staffing, are we talking about budgets? So you identify each one of those components and then you walk it back. Well if, for example, we want the Visitor Center to look this way, remodeled. We want to have the best Visitor Center in the Park Service. Okay well what does that look like? And you start identifying those components. Well we could have the latest technology, we could have a new movie, we could have you know all of these things, but then you-- when you break it down into components and start backing it up there are things you have to do in order to get there. Whether that's, you've got to fix things first and you back it up. And then from that process you get a timeline as well as projects that need to be done in order to realize that picture. More often than not that includes as a primary component your staff.

Ben: Obviously, I know you're usually very busy with meetings and things like that. So would you say that all those sort of revolve around that one of those components of what does the Fort look like a month from now, a year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now?

Kevin: Yes, every bit of it, Every bit of it, yeah. Because it's-- you know it's multifaceted. So for example, a question would be you know is the park as accessible as it should be? Well what does that mean? So let's go back let's identify exactly you know what does that mean, and then let's get the staff involved, and let's start getting ideas. But then also we need to incorporate outside groups as well, so that we have a more robust and creative process to identify those things. In this example, with accessibility, you're going to be touching on everything. Whether it's interpretation, how you interpret the park, facilities, how do you maintain them, and you start getting that planned out and work towards implementing it and in order to do that you've got to have a lot of meetings and talk to a lot of different groups.

Canvas: Working just at Fort Larned in general is there one particular aspect of work that you prefer over-- I mean I know Ben loves the reenactment part. Which I'm sure we all do to a sense. But it's like desk work, there's organizing, there's planning for the future, getting events set up, is there a particular thing that you have that you prefer to do workwise compared to just everything else there's just one thing that you're like oh this is my cup of tea?

Kevin: So I get a sense of accomplishment and most people do you know when you-- when you're able to look back and see something get done. And for a lot of people and me in a lot of respects that something that gets done is physical. A new roof, a new structure, a new road. But for me yes, those do give me a sense of accomplishment and they are very important, but more so what I really like to see is for the staff to grow. Grow in their skill sets, grow on their creativity, identify things and implement them. You know one of the things that I think, for myself a lot anyway, is I may come up with a 100 different ideas and try to implement 50 of them and if five of them work I'm happy. Because those five never would have been accomplished had I not identified 100. And so whenever you see staff and volunteers doing things and coming up with ideas and you see all of the excitement around that and you see them actually get the physical things done but you see the growth that's to me the most rewarding part of the job.

Ben: Seeing successes, I mean some sometimes you have you have failures in there too but then you learn and able to adjust and make it better the second time around.

Kevin: Right.

Canvas: Is there anything in the park future that you're looking forward to specifically?

Kevin: Mhmm. The Old Guard, our friends group, Fort Larned Old Guard, is-- they're an amazing group, and because of that and their work ethic, their professionalism, their creativity, they've done a lot of things for the park over the years. One of which is they purchased a village site with the intent of you know at some point being able to transfer that to the to the park which would be wonderful. As part of that process, they've been working on getting it listed as a National Historic Landmark, which would help to preserve it into the future. I mean they've put in a parking lot, they're talking about putting in waysides, holding events there. So to me that's-- for the future of the park that's very exciting you know let's get it listed as an NHL and let's see what we can move forward with.

Ben: So do you think eventually that may potentially be a satellite site to the Fort here?

Kevin: I'm hopeful, yeah.

Ben: Sort of like how the rut site is, but just a little further out.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful area it really is and it ties in with the fort. I mean it's--

Ben: 'Cuz that's where Handcock burned the Cheyenne Village, right?

Kevin: Right, right.

Ben: So have-- and the place he left from a couple days before was right here.

Kevin: Mhm, yeah. And then you've got all of these characters that were here, passed through that are tied to the village and then after that as well. So there are a lot of stories, a lot of perspectives.

Ben: That's one thing that again when I talk to visitors I had tell them I love about this place is we know for a fact that there's over 270 officers here. That doesn't count the enlisted men that were here, the civilians who worked here, the travelers on the trail, the Plains Indians that were here. When you add that in you have thousands if not maybe close to a million stories that you can tell and so it's really cool to have the prospect of having something that we can add to the story and add to the interpretation here even though it's not necessarily right on site but it does add to the whole story of Fort Larned.

Kevin: Right. And ties in.

Ben: So I mean there are a lot of friends groups, in our in our next episode we are actually going to hear from the chairperson of The Old Guard. Friends groups aren't they're not mutually exclusive to Fort Larned, so what are your experiences working with cooperating organizations like friends groups, or like Western National Parks Association who runs our bookstore, and things like that? Because I assume you have a lot of relationship with people like that in your position.

Kevin: Right. I've worked you know at other parks I worked-- we had a friends group there as well and there were other at various times organizations that we worked with depending on you know if it was for hiking trails, bicycle paths, land acquisition things of that nature. Out of every park that I've worked at there have been groups, but I would have to say you know that The Old Guard is right at the top as far as what they've done you know for the park, for the history, and what they're currently doing, the direction they're going.

Ben: I mean they're always looking in the future and that's why we have that interview in this in the Fort Larned's Future because that's-- while they do help us keep what's here, here they do also help us for future projects and for future acquisitions and things like that. As we were talking about I think in the first couple episodes of this season we were talking about some of the things that they've been able to acquire for us. We have a Trapdoor Rifle that was used here, Captain Nolan's revolver, Frank Baldwin's sword, just really cool things that we wouldn't otherwise be able to get our hands on-- we're able to help tell the story of the fort and that's all thanks to really the volunteers with The Old Guard.

Kevin: You know one of the things and Canvas had asked me and I'm going to turn it around on you Ben, make this an interview about you. You know canvas had asked me previously uh about volunteers you know how do you grow volunteers, what future do you see for volunteers here, future growth? You know I know that you've been a driving force here at the park with volunteers, whether they're living historians, I know you're working on getting a band going, but also long-term volunteers like we just had and like your working on coming up. That's a big accomplishment. You know what do you see for the future?

Ben: Yeah, so--

Kevin: Put you on the spot.

Ben: Yeah, well taking it back a little bit 'cuz I mean I do focus on history quite a bit so it's easy for me to look in the past, I got my start in the Park Service as a volunteer. My goal, my career goal when I was in Middle School was to become a National Park Service Ranger so I set my sites on that early found the path that I could take and that was starting out with volunteering. So I volunteered at my local National Park, had lots of new experiences, was uncomfortable many times, but was able to grow through that. And so my goal is to involve as many volunteers as we can, because the National Park Service can't do what we do without volunteers.

Kevin: Right.

Ben: And giving the volunteers new experiences. As I'm sure Canvas, have you ever been on a podcast before?

Canvas: I've never been on a podcast.

Ben: There we go.

Canvas: There's a new experience unlocked.

Kevin: Yeah, same here.

Ben: Yeah, so--

Canvas: We're all in it together.

Ben: Learning new things and doing new things. I know for especially our younger volunteers, public speaking is not necessarily something they're comfortable with but here we have a great stage for them to just have conversations have-- talk with people and get in that interpretation and tell the story and give that visitor a positive experience. So not only including more volunteers to help us out, but help them out as much as possible, give them new experiences help them along the lines that they enjoy. For example Canvas you have done a lot of research into Hospital Stewards and things like that which has grown my knowledge and my interpretation of the site. And then we had our long-term volunteer Lynn, who's a co-host on the last episode, she loves researching so she did a lot of research for us while she was here. She added oh I don't know it was like a good 5 inch stack of papers to our files of things that she found. So finding out what the volunteers enjoy, for one, because if we're not giving them something that they enjoy or something that they can use to grow, they're not necessarily going to keep coming back.

Kevin: Right.

Ben: And so finding ways to do that so-- and along the lines of growing the staff of what are their goals what do they want and help them that way.

Kevin: What would you want or need for the Superintendent at Fort Larned to do to help you?

Ben: That's a question I haven't really thought about, so you're putting me on the spot.

Kevin: I am.

Ben: But no, I guess just the support you've already given has been fantastic and I know any interaction that you've had with the volunteers has been, they always come back with you're just an awesome person. I think when they see someone of your leadership status caring about everyone be that a visitor, volunteer, staff member, I think that goes a long way. I can definitely tell that your ears are always open.

Kevin: I have learned more from the staff just listening to them. That's going back to your question earlier Canvas, that's one of the things that I really like especially-- and it's been my whole experience with small parks, but being able to interact with with all of the staff, all of the volunteers, you can have the opportunity to learn so much from them.

Ben: Yeah, we have a lot of knowledge here and not just one person has it.

Kevin: No, no.

Ben: That's what's that's what's been extraordinary about this podcast too is being able to dive into George's knowledge, into Mike's knowledge, into Bill Chapman's knowledge, into Tyler's knowledge, and yeah and into yours too and your prior experiences. That's been really eye opening into what goes on that I don't necessarily worry about on a day-to-day but is being worried about by other people in the park.

Kevin: Right. We wouldn't be able to have the time or the luxury to worry about that and look at planning for the park's future if not for the staff. And the volunteers doing what they do. So it's a-- it goes both ways, it's a give and take.

Canvas: Moving on into the future of the park, we're currently working on a couple things for it including this building. I mean really just when-- 'cuz I mean this building, been here forever and no one's really had access to it from the public so when do you think-- I mean people should come out here because everything's constantly changing of course and every time I come out here I learn something new. So the chance of people have never been out here before learning something new is very high. So I mean even the people have come out here before, when should they come back out here to expect to see this building open?

Kevin: So you know we're looking at right now we're doing-- and you can see from the interior some of the work that's been done. Right now essentially we're making an assessment. What kind of shape is the building in? What needs to be done to the building? And then from that they'll start putting together some documents for construction. And so we're-- so you got a phase one and a phase two, right now we're in phase one and it's not that nothing is going on, there's a lot. I mean if you go down into the bottom floor, you can see where they've taken up the modern floor and you can see the historic floor. We're taking an assessment in this example of the historic floor, how much of it can be saved preserved and what needs to be done in order to do that? The phase one assessment should be done this year. Soon thereafter we would start the construction. So you know if everything goes according to plan couple, of years 3 years and this building will be renovated and opened up hopefully. But there are a lot of other things right now we've got a mess behind the Visitor Center. Putting in you know-- when we talk about facilities it also includes things like water and sewage. For the most part, any park is like a city unto itself, because you've got water, sewer, electric, utilities and all those have to be managed and at times they have life cycles that need to be replaced and so right now we're replacing a septic system. You know we're very fortunate to have Bill Chapman, our Facilities Manager, he's very forward thinking and very proactive in identifying projects, things that need to get done, and then going after the funding to get them done. Some of the other things that we're looking at in the next 3 to 5 years are roofs. Re-roofing most of the buildings if not all. Painting several of the buildings, fixing the plaster work inside you know with the cracks and things of that nature. We're looking at maintaining our roads, signage, waysides. So everything again is in a constant state of change. It's Bill Chapman's job to arrest that change or repair it as soon as possible. And so things are always changing and you know in the same respects that's true with telling the stories of the park. Different ways of telling the story again these podcasts. Ben I know that you and another Park Ranger, Celeste just worked on a project and are hoping to get funding for it. Can you tell a little bit about that?

Ben: Yeah so the Park Service is working on finding some pilot parks for augmented reality. Although it will take some money to do it, it's going to take a lot less money than say rebuilding a whole structure. So what we're working on right now is the beginnings of the project to hopefully add augmented reality so you can see the Cavalry Stables through the Park Service app. And so you'd be able to go to around the location of where the stables were and though it won't actually be there, you can see what it would look like in the landscape which would be awesome.

Kevin: Yeah, that would really be neat. And that's through looking through your smartphone.

Ben: Yeah. And again a lot cheaper than right and a lot easier to maintain. And then I also know that that y'all are working on another Window to the Past for the laundresses so that should be done. I would say come to the park as much as possible, because things are constantly being worked on, improved new things are being done. Whether you can physically see them or not it may be like the band Ben is working on getting that going. It may be new programs, it may be new stories that are being told, but you know this park is growing consistently and that's one of the things I've noticed since I've been here. Not only through projects on facilities but interpretively as well through those types of programs. So I would say come often.

Ben: And if I can add to that, personally I've of course I've worked here for a little over four years now, so I've been here on a daily basis pretty much that whole time, and I am still always learning something. So even if you've been out here 10, 20 times--

Kevin: Right.

Ben: There's always something to learn.

Kevin: Absolutely and you know, I would encourage people to visit with the Park Rangers. The amount of knowledge that is-- that the staff has at this park is amazing. I at times sit and just try to think of questions to ask you know George for example to see if I can stump him and I've yet to do so.

Ben: I've had the same experience. Alright so as we wrap up, another thing we've been asking all our guests this season is how can our listeners help? Whether they're local whether they're not, what are some more ways they can help either your job or just help the park in general?

Kevin: Come to the park, you know absolutely if you can, if not you know come to the park through digital means. With today's technology, there are apps, we've got our website I know, well, Ben you're always putting up new things on the website like you did with the Blacksmith last year. I would learn as much about the park as you can and then and tell people about it. If you've got the time and the inclination please come out and volunteer. If you can't physically be here, there may be volunteers options where you can do it offsite, remotely. You know we appreciate the interest in the park and help us continue to grow that through whatever means we can.

Canvas: What event that's coming up are you looking forward to most?

Kevin: Mess and Muster!

Ben: That's going to be a fun one.

Canvas: It will be a fun one.

Kevin: And I think I told you this earlier, Canvas, but you know last year literally and figuratively I had an absolute ball.

Ben: That was fun.

Kevin: It was fun! Got to dance, yeah.

Canvas: I mean we have lots of events throughout the year too that people can come out for but I mean don't just come out for those. We got a lot of things that you can learn about out here and things going on constantly.

Ben: Well thanks for coming on and sharing a little bit about what you do and giving us some insight into the park's future.

Kevin: Oh you bet, thank you. I appreciate you having me.

Ben: Alright, have a good one.

Kevin: You too.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright well thank you for taking a listen, we certainly appreciate it. If you haven't already, check us out on social media, we're on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And also check out our website we have some great resources for you on there be sure to leave us a rating and review.

Canvas: If you already follow us on social media, be sure to check out Nicodemus National Historic Site as well. They have great resources and things that you can learn about there too.

Ben: Wonderful and thank you again for taking a listen.

Canvas: And we will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Host: Ben Long Co-host: Canvas Lovesee Guest: Kevin Eads Description: As the fort’s Superintendent, Kevin Eads’ job revolves around looking into the future of the park to not only ensure it remains for future generations, but to improve it as well. Join us as we dive into the uncertainty that is Fort Larned’s future and the role visitors, volunteers, and staff play in it.

December 2, 2023

4. Fort Larned's Present (Part 2)

Transcript

[Footstep intro music plays along with sounds of the fort]

Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast. I'm your host Ranger Ben. In this season, we are taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today is part two on Fort Larned's present where we're focusing on keeping what's here, here. Today I'm joined by our volunteer Lynn. How are you today?

Lynn King: I'm good!

Ben: As we get this kicked off why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself what drew you to Fort Larned and some of the things you find interesting about being here.

Lynn: Yeah, so back in May of this year, my husband and I decided to semi-retire and take some time to do sort of a two-fer. One is to travel and enjoy National Parks, because we love them, not just the parks like capital "N" capital "P" National Parks but all the National Park sites and also State Parks too. Like we really love the parks of this country. So to do that, to travel, to kind of get into all the really great places that this country has to offer, because it's huge and varied, right? On any other continent I think that you would, in order to see, you know, Niagara Falls and the Adirondacks and the, you know, the beautiful Green Mountains of Vermont and the coast of Maine, those would all be different countries, let alone down the swamps of Florida and, you know, the culture of New Orleans and then over into the Prairie States and then down into the Southwest. I mean, in any other continent those would be different countries and in the US it's all one country which makes it really easy to travel. But you still get this huge variety of beauty and culture and history and it's marvelous. So we're doing that. We're taking some time, we're still working part-time but we're doing a lot of traveling and we're doing a lot of volunteering in the Parks, because we found that that is a really amazing way to slow down and really absorb what is wonderful about a place.

Ben: Yeah, as Jeff was saying on the episode with Bill Chapman, he said you're lucky to have one, blessed to have two days in a park and so being able to spend one, two, three months at a park, you really get to dive in deep to what makes it special.

Lynn: Yeah! I mean so we live on site in our camper, and every single morning we watch the sunrise, look over at this really cool historic site that is part of this you know it's a-- the Santa Fe Trail is a fairly obscure, small part of American history but also really interesting and really important in its own way. I mean I think you'll hear later in the episode Tyler refers to this fort as being on the highway of the time -- and it was, right? I mean this was the Santa Fe Trail was a really big deal.

Ben: Yeah it was a it was a great interview and like you said it was it was cool to hear Tyler's perspective and his experience in the Parks as well. So our guest today is Tyler Blind. He is our-- his official title I believe is Carpenter. He is here through different project money and things like that helping with historic preservation and restoration on a few of our buildings. One of my favorite parts of the interview was getting to hear just how deep he has to go into learning from those before him, and doing research into historic preservation techniques to redo some of these things the same way that they were done 150 sometimes 200 years ago. And so that was that was really neat for me.

Lynn: Yeah, I would say what really resonated with me in Tyler's story and his journey with the National Parks was something that I think he and I probably both have in common, which is that our roles with the Parks is to sort of be a bit like Mary Poppins, right? Like we get to come into a place that is already wonderful in its own way and then we get to, at least for a time, put our hands on it and make it better and also really enjoy it. He got to put his hands on all sorts of different really interesting stuff in really interesting places and he got to enjoy not only his work but also the place of the National Park Site where he was.

Ben: It was a great interview we had a great time and we hope you also enjoy it, so here you go!

[Whoosh]

Ben: Welcome Tyler.

Tyler Blind: Well hello.

Ben: Thanks for coming on and telling us a little bit about what you do. Why don't we get started with your name, title, how long you've been here and what other Parks you've worked at.

Tyler: Well my name is Tyler Blind. Here at the Park, I'm technically Carpenter but it's also called like Historic Preservationist. I have worked-- I started off at Herbert Hoover National Historic Site in West Branch, Iowa. That was July of 2015 to November '17 working seasonally 6 months at a time. That's just the birthplace and burial site of former president Herbert Hoover. They have his original birthplace cottage there and his gravesite up there. Then next, was a-- I had a year and a half break and then I went back to the park service and that is when I came to Fort Larned for the first time in June of 2019. That was right after Memorial Day.

Ben: With all the flooding.

Tyler: When the was closed. Yep, I remember like a week before moving here, I saw the Instagram and there's water-- they closed the park down cuz the entrance Road was flooded. I'm like "okay there's going to be some work to do when we get there." Turns out that kind of like reduced the amount of work we had to do because there's no mowing to be done.

Ben: That's true.

Tyler: Cuz you don't mow in that wet of grass. The Oxbow had water in it.

Ben: I remember that.

Tyler: And I think it maybe a month or two later that it was finally not staining water in the Oxbow and everyone's like "that's never happened." So then it was Fort Larned and then that-- I was done in December. And then April, the third week of April in 2020, I moved to Seneca Falls to work at the Women's Rights National Historical Park. There I was just a regular Maintenance Worker like it been everywhere else. That was done. Done working there in December and then when went to April of 2021 was Cuyahoga Valley National Park. And there I was a painter there -- a Painter Helper. And then the following Spring I got hired here as a Carpenter.

Ben: That was, shoot, that was with project money too, right?

Tyler: Yep.

Ben: So even though this is a temporary position, it's been extended quite a bit.

Tyler: Yep, through-- that was originally project money and then it got switched up to like a temporary COVID hire money and now we're just-- Adrian and I are being paid out of Soft Funding type money right now.

Lynn: So for listeners who have no idea what those terms mean what is Project Money what is Soft Money what is COVID Money?

Tyler: I don't know what the Soft Money Hard Money-- that would have been a question to ask "Chappy" when he was on. It's like fixed money then there's like extra money they can use stuff here and there for and believe that's-- as far as I know that's what is money we can use here and there. Other money has to be spent on this and that then there like the soft money can be here or there where we need it and they've decided to keep us around a little while longer. Hence why we're doing all the all the work on this building is that we're currently in the Commanding Officer Quarters is all the tear out stuff we're doing and preparation for restoring it to what it looked like and opening up to be an exhibit is all out of that.

Lynn: Okay so project money is earmarked for a very specific project.

Tyler: Yep.

Lynn: And soft money, the Fort or Historic Site or whatever site can use at its own discretion for what it thinks needs to get done?

Tyler: I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that but that's what-- something along those lines I can't tell you. I'm not a Facility Manager somebody else like that. Project Money is they get, you know, people like Facility Managers have to figure out a project, figure out how much it's going to cost, put that all in the system and then get that kind of money approved as like extra money for the park over like the base budget. And so that is all-- that's what I've-- besides when I was at Women's Rights, that was what I was always paid out of for every Park I've been to. It's always been I got a project they get them like every year they get a project for their Seasonals to be able to work on and you work out of that.

Lynn: Okay so when you come into a park, generally, you are extra, you're not part of their core staff you come in and you just-- you help out with whatever above and beyond stuff you can get done for them.

Tyler: If you're talking the difference between like Permanent, yeah. But they plan on Seasonals every year they know that's going to be part of the budget every year for certain Seasonals and stuff like that.

Ben: They just have to have certain projects lined up for the Seasonals to do.

Tyler: Yeah and they line it up so well that they can pretty much-- they plan on it every year unless something like major or drastic different happens.

Lynn: So what led you to work for the National Parks.

Tyler: I've always enjoyed the Parks, being outside, it's going to sound random cuz like some people like I just I did this I volunteer to do this so I can get in here and do all this. That that wasn't me, mine was pretty random. I was-- going back, I used to work in a factory and when they laid me off, I decided to go back to college and get a degree. And after getting my Associates and then headed back to the University of Iowa to-- actually not headed back, but going to the University of Iowa while working there I was doing granite work like I'd done before a long-- a while ago. And just a really bad day working at a company that I didn't like with the, you know, school stress and other things going on in life. And I mean a really bad day on top of what was not being good weeks you know and I just went home and ignored my schoolwork and just applied for like 20 different jobs. And one of them was the National Park Service who called me up and you know within a while later I was doing fingerprints and you know the background checks and everything. But yeah, no just bad day at work, stressful, decided to apply for a bunch of jobs I'm like well that sounds fascinating to work, you know, in historic place and I applied and yeah. Then actually got the job.

Ben: So then the follow question to that: what has kept you in the National Park Service?

Tyler: Oh well yeah that is the most important part. I do really like history, I like old style like construction stuff, the way things used to be, and just working in the Park Service, I've worked for corporations I've worked for small businesses and it's always a lot of ah just get it done. Just get it done. And you know if it's messed up maybe we'll get to it later. The way our system works in the Parks, it has to be done right the first time. We don't have all the time to do it this way, we don't have all the budgeting or just the time or anything. Like do it right because it's historic and it needs to be done right the first time and done well. And so I do like that. Preserving history I think is-- and you know amazing and important and then you get to like other different non-historical parks and you're preserving like nature and cultural stuff and just like, yeah okay yeah, this is you know it's a great mission to be on to help preserve all this stuff and actually also help and increase my skills and everything like that. And it's not the same thing every day. You could go out and be doing masonry like I used to do and just doing brick, after brick, after brick, after brick, or block you know whatever and you know that that does get boring and tedious at the time. I'll get really good at it because I am good at repetitive tasks, but it does get a little-- for the mind it's not that exciting or rewarding. But you get to work on all kinds of different stuff over here it's yeah it's fun you get to go see some nice places. I really enjoyed like when I was at Cuyahoga Valley I would just plan some of my days where I had to go do other stuff, I'd plan my day and just take a park at by the lake or by this or watch the steam train go by or-- you know just bring a lunch and it's like a picnic every day in the Park Service it's quite nice as long as the weather's good you know sometimes it's not so great and sometimes your picnic flies away when you're in Kansas. It's like oh it's a beautiful day if it wasn't for that wind blowing everything away. Whatever National Park you're in you're usually not too far away from nature and just being able to just go out and just yeah sit amongst the trees or the prairie out here and just watch stuff, yeah.

Lynn: So it sounds like you have pretty good experience working on both modern renovations as well as historic renovations. Could you describe the difference of what it's like to work on one versus the other?

Tyler: A lot of material difference there's a lot, like your lumber. If you go down to the basement of this building where we tore out the chimney that used to be there, you can see the lumber that they used to have there, they're not 2x4 pine. And you know 2x4 we're not even talking you know modern lumber is not even 2 inches by 4 inches. Yeah, you're actually smaller than that and the down there in the walls of this building, we've seen that they're actually like 4x4 posts like you would have like for a fence like literally what we have like the fence post out here is what the studs on these walls are made out of and then even some of the floor bracing. As I was under there yesterday trying to hammer out that foundation and yeah, just different lumber materials, the stone materials can be different. A lot of different materials and just the way things were done a little bit differently back then you don't have all the screws that-- a lot more nails holding stuff and sometimes just more like friction fit type stuff. Where it's just it's so tightly put together that doesn't need all that extra stuff. Takes bit more time, bit more precision.

Lynn: It sounds like it might also be a bit more mental work for you guys to figure out how to reconstruct some of the materials because you're not going to go to a Home Depot and buy it off the shelf.

Tyler: Oh yeah no, I had to go-- the materials for some of the windows that we're doing it has to be clear white pine and there's not any of that so just last year had to go take the trailer and drive all the way to Springfield, Missouri with an overnight stay and pick up a trailer full of clear white pine Lumber for us to have.

Ben: Continuing down the line of the modern stuff versus the historic stuff. Both times you've been here have focused on a different thing. So your first time here your project that season was some of the new museum renovations and then this time you're working on more historic renovation or historic preservation and restoration of some of the windows and things like that. Why don't you go into some of the differences there or some of the challenges that you had with both of those.

Tyler: Yeah the 2019 they-- I think they began in fiscal year of 2018 doing some stuff in museum moving stuff around so yeah. I came through when the museum was like, it had a lot of stuff I never saw what the old museum looked like, I saw like half of it because they still had like half the stuff on display while it was blocked off kind of moving stuff around as we were working. And that's the interesting part about working like in museums or in some of these areas we're still trying to keep it open for the public, cuz some people don't go to the parks, the same park all the time. Some people this would be the only time they ever had to this park to see what it is. So we kind of want to have on display all that we can. Doesn't always happen that way and especially you know not a lot of people come out to Larned you know as it was. This used to be right on a stop on the interstate of the day and it's not anymore. Yeah, we were doing drywall, and painting, and then putting some carpet down, gluing carpet down, carpet squares with a little rubber backing on them. Yeah it's not stuff they did back in the day. There's some electrical stuff going on putting in all the track lighting. And those aren't things that you what you do you don't build dry a wall for these buildings. I mean these are these are wood lath and plaster put up on them. That was a lot more modern going on with there and now here yeah, fixing windows and you know the clear white pine and just tear them all apart. A lot of them like they don't use the trim around to keep the actual window in those are nailed in but like the actual like sashes themselves, there's no mechanical-- there's no nails or screws holding them in those were all just like mortice and tenon joints and little wedges and actually friction fit everything in together. So they actually hold together without having to be screwed or anything like that. So I got to do that doing a little a little detailed like playing with a shaper to do like what we would do like molding type work to make the muttons and the rails on the windows. That's a brand new thing for me here to learn I'd actually like work a shaper and get those blades which the former Carpenter made most of them by hand -- those blades to actually do a lot of the profiling on these. And every building has a different profile and a different thickness of these windows.

Lynn: So it sounds like you, even here at for Larned which is a Historic Site, you've done pretty big spectrum of both modern stuff like in the museum, largely modern renovations, versus here over in the Officer's Quarters which are being renovated where it's all extremely hand worked, custom, truly historic renovations where you're trying to be as authentic as possible.

Tyler: We got to paint the walls with paint rollers.

Lynn: Okay

Tyler: So I mean that's about I mean you got some power tools to working it's a lot easier to make those sashes in the shop than what they would have done back in the day. But yeah, that's about some of the more modern tools. But yeah, we could use paint rollers on the wall. Ideally you'd like a brushed look on the wall, but modern paint nowadays does not let-- they're all self-leveling paint, so like you can't even yeah you can't buy paint at the store to actually get a brush look anymore. There are ways but it won't be-- all the good paint doesn't let you put brush marks in it cuz yeah the-- "Chappy" here wanted me to do that on the first room that we did over on 09 on the on the renovation project last year and I waited till that paint was almost-- it was just the tackiest it's ever going to be. Some of it was even-- so I took a brush and I just-- the whole two walls of that room there, top to bottom. Came back and I was like okay there's the brush look. Came back the next day and all perfectly smooth.

Ben: Oh goodness!

Tyler: So those are some stuff with the materials that is different when you're doing now that-- yeah you can't really do that, those paints nowadays are actually so much easier for like your average consumer to use so they don't have to worry about putting like brush marks-- it's possible but not really feasible to do with.

Lynn: So how are you learning to do all these different historical techniques? Like you said you had to figure out how to try to put brush marks on the wall and you're learning you know you're learning how to make custom molding for example. So like can you give us some examples of different skills you've had to learn and maybe how you figured it out?

Tyler: Well all the window stuff that I was having to do here I can thank the former coworker huge, huge help. And that was part of what you know part of my hiring here "Chappy"'s like "I know you don't know entirely how to do this but I know you can learn it and so Robert's going to help you do it cuz Robert's been doing it for 12 years but he's got his own projects and everything that he's got to do so he doesn't have time to do this major project" on 09-- I'm sorry 07 or is the South Junior Officers Quarters as we would call it.

Lynn: It's interesting. You know as a person who is, I think of myself as a National Park Super Fan in some ways, love the National Park System and I definitely think of it as a place of recreation and beauty and preservation. I really had never thought of it until now as also a repository of historic skills. When I asked you how you learn that you said I learned it from someone else who'd been doing it for 12 years and he probably learned it from someone else who' been doing it for a decade or more.

Tyler: Yeah, Robert went to, I think he went to school but not entirely for that and then yeah so he had to learn most of those skills here. I mean, yeah it's those skills that you pick up and learn on. It's like to revert to that tuck pointing on the Blockhouse what we were doing earlier this year. I've done tuck pointing previously I learned it when I was going to school for a year doing-- for masonry and I've done it on chimneys, buildings, porches, and stuff like you know lots of different things mostly chimneys though. That's actually part of what got me hired at Herbert Hoover initially was that they had two chimneys they needed tuck pointed. One on their schoolhouse and one on their blacksmith.

Lynn: Ok, so can you, for folks who haven't been here, or haven't been here in a while, could you describe three things? What is the Blockhouse, what does it look like, and then what is tuck pointing?

Tyler: Yes so the Blockhouse-- it kind of sits off the like the Parade Grounds a little bit it's like this weird building it's kind of different from the-- I mean all the other buildings are rectangular and the Blockhouse sits out there. The blockhouse is hexagon shaped with a little-- a very shallow pitch cedar roof, then it's got like a Sentry Watchtower on top. It's made of the same sandstone that all the other buildings around here are made out of and it's got a tunnel inside and a door that leads to a well room. I think Ben would be able to better tell exactly what the blockhouse was used for cuz my understanding was that has two different purposes back during the fort period.

Ben: Yeah so the blockhouse originally was a defensive position um and was one of the first sandstone buildings to be constructed. So there's 100 rifle loopholes in there to help defend the fort from all angles. It was a last ditch effort location if the Fort was under attack you do have the loopholes in the two other South buildings too that you could defend the fort with. But then since it hadn't been used as a defensive position by the time the Army gets around to constructing the guardhouse, which would be in between the Shops and the New Commissary, they realized that they hadn't used the Blockhouse, likely wouldn't have to use it, and so they decided to save money and convert the Blockhouse into the Guardhouse. So that tunnel led to an underground well in the case that the fort was attacked, you still had access to water. But then that tunnel became solitary confinement for the especially misbehaving soldiers. But yeah you get the two levels of rifle loopholes for the defense of the fort but then later the Guardhouse.

Lynn: What's a rifle loophole?

Ben: That's a good question. On a ship it's called a port hole on land it's called a loophole. But it's a hole in the side of the building that you can use to stick your rifle out of and help defend the fort.

Lynn: So the Blockhouse, in summary, is a combination of a guard and sentry building, and it's hexagon-shaped so they have a pretty good view from all angles of who might be coming. It's also fortified in a way that if there was an attack, soldiers could get in there, they had lots of places to point their guns out of to hold down the fort literally. And then also it was used as a place for punishment. So if you were a misbehaving soldier, you might be sent there with a ball and chain, you might be sent there and put down in the, in my opinion, very creepy, not smelling so fantastic, solitary confinement.

Tyler: I was in that tunnel earlier this year for replacing boards in the tunnel that were rotten out cuz there's moisture getting down in there. It is not very comfortable and I'm not very tall, I'm only like 5'9" so yeah it's not a comfortable walk down there.

Lynn: Okay so now we know what the Blockhouse is. What is tuck pointing?

Tyler: Tuck pointing is just a-- it's not done a whole lot nowadays but even that's kind of how masonry structures are designed. So masonry structures, you have your stone but then so they're not just like free holding stuff you put your mortar in to help hold them together and the mortar, best way to put it is like the material the whatever masonry material you're using doesn't matter what type of stone it is brick, block, or whatever even sandstone like this, those aren't supposed to wear down or break or degrade. If it is, there's an issue going on elsewhere with the building maybe water's getting in or whatever. The mortar is supposed to wear like especially as buildings shift and move. We have them on these buildings, we have gauges on these buildings, we're measuring these buildings and how they shift and settle and move. And with the tuck pointing you're going to have joints wear out just over through like erosion and time and sometimes they'll crack from the shifting but that's where they're supposed to crack. When you like walk on a sidewalk and those sidewalks-- they'll pour a sidewalk primarily as all one piece of concrete, but they'll cut or they'll put grooves in that and that's designed to be where as the sidewalk shifts and weather changes, that's where the crack goes. Mortar kind of does the same thing and that's usually that's where you want the damage to go to because that's easy to replace. Replacing actual stones and bricks, that's a that's a lot more work, don't want to do that. So the mortar is designed to wear away instead of the actual stone and that's why you have castles that are you know when you go over, I love castles, when you go over to other countries, that's why you have castles that have been there for hundreds and hundreds and some almost like over a thousand years. And the stones and materials in there are still the original stones because that's how they're designed to be built. So tuck pointing whether they're wearing away themselves or whether the mortar is just starting to crack and have holes in it, tuck pointing is where you just go in usually you can you can hand chisel them if you need to or you can use like a grinder with a special little bit on there a tuck pointing bit and it'll knock all that mortar out usually go back about quarter maybe a half an inch. You remove all of that mortar there from that damaged area section and then you just go back in you take a little bit of mortar, I usually put on the back side of my masonry trial and then you have the these little tuck pointers which are just like really thin they're like a trowel but they're, like a masonry trowel, but instead of like the diamond-ish shape they're rectangular and they're thin. We can get them up like a 1/2 inch, 3/8, 1/4 inch sizes. We even have an 1/8 inch ones here, because the stones around here some of them are slapped together so tight. Some of them are actually touching and then they like groove out the outside of the stone and then fill it full on mortar to give you a false joint. And you just take the mortar you put it on the back side of your trowel and instead of like scraping it onto the material like you would for like another for like actually putting together a wall, you just take your little tuck pointer you put that trowel up against it and you just slowly but surely just push it off the trowel and into the hole and have to change sizes depending upon-- especially around here um it's a full kit of tuck pointers. And yep just slowly filling them in until you're out towards the front of them flush with the stone. Then give it a little bit of time to dry because you'll kind of have like muffin top like little squeeze overs from the tooling and then you can just take a brush and brush them all off and they'll give them a nice brush look or-- and it'll get all the little flakes off there from what you were pushing in there. Because, I mean you have to make sure they're full. If you do not fill them in and you leave gaps, moisture will get into those gaps and then moisture in a wall will damage it and then that's just yeah-- you just need to fill them full or else water damage is going to happen and then they're going to erode and go bad. But yeah you just fill them full like that it is a very tedious process people watch me do it sometimes and they're just like "ugh". Like they just could not imagine doing it themselves but I like that tediousness. I like that, especially it's one of those projects where you grind it out, your section, and then within like 10 minutes you got all your mortar in there and then however fast it's drying you go right through and you can do like a whole section in like in like a half hour. Grind to a brand new joints-- the difference you can make is just huge. And it's and it's good for it because, yeah, we're putting that mortar back in. So your modern mortar has like Portland Cement in it and so they last like 50-75 years that's why you don't see tuck pointing happen a whole lot nowadays because your mortar is so strong. Our mortar here they didn't have Portland Cement back in the day. It's a weird history of Portland Cement but we didn't have it. And then we especially didn't have it over in the US, so it's just sand and lime. Two part sand to one part lime mix, the sand is your bulk and then your lime is your elasticity and kind of holds all the glue together and like some of these the lime is out of it so it's just like compacted sand.

Lynn: So what are you using for mortar now, are you using historically accurate mortar?

Tyler: Yes we have to use historically accurate mortar here because it's what we it's what we call a soft mortar. So like every mortar has like pounds per square inch of pressure it can take and-- or like it gives off itself and your mortar has to be weaker than your stone essentially. That way, if we were to put, and it had been done before during the ranch period and maybe other times, where there actually is like Portland Mortar used in these buildings. That's not good because then when the building shifts and moves the mortar will be stronger than the stone so it'll cause the stone to actually break or start to spall as we call it where like it start to flake off near the near the edges of the mortar. So as everything moves you know there's pressure when they move something has to give. The idea is it's the mortar that gives or wears away then we can just replace that easily it's just you know going over tuck pointing. As some people don't think it's easy I think it's easy-- "oh here we go, buh, buh, buh", tuck point the mortar back in. Otherwise the stone will actually damage and we don't want that even if it wasn't a historic building it's a lot more work and then on historic building we're trying to preserve the history around here so that's a real bummer when that kind of stuff happens when you got to actually replace something historic around here. So yeah no we use what is just a soft mortar because that's what we have to use around here. It's not just for historical accuracy, it's for the safety of the material itself.

Lynn: Yeah because the sandstone of the buildings here are it's pretty soft stone.

Tyler: They're very soft stone and these are even harder than what they naturally would have been. If you saw we were doing on the Blockhouse just last month after we got done tuck pointing, we were spraying it, we're actually spraying this it's a consolidator. With this consolidator that makes the stone stronger, about twice as strong as it actually is. And that's one of our preservation processes around here.

Lynn: So a consolidator is something you'd spray on stone to help prevent the stone from eroding?

Tyler: It makes it stronger, yep. So it'll hold up to the weather a lot more it won't be as easy you know as you know you go around the buildings of this, here and there's a lot of people scribing into the walls and there's a reason they did that it's very easy to do it. It does not take a whole lot of time for somebody to come through and do that.

Lynn: And just to be clear for everyone listening: no one is writing their names on the buildings anymore but they used to prior to the Park Service.

Ben: It's no longer legal.

Tyler: That's at a very good point.

Ben: And that's another thing too that one way you can help out if you are visiting is to, if you see something like that happening say something about it. We'll be very grateful.

Tyler: And your historic structures are just like nature -- leave it the way you saw it when you came in.

Lynn: Feel free to take pictures of it.

Ben: Yes.

Tyler: But it but it is difficult with all the Ranch Period stuff that adds the history of these buildings they go and they're like "oh these people did it, oh they're everywhere" then they kind of get that idea to do it themselves just like yeah, no. That's, yeah.

Lynn: Some visitors definitely do not know, before they talk to us, they don't know that the graffiti is actually fairly historical because they'll see you know dates from the 1900s and think it's still going on until we explain that no-no now that it's a National Park Site, it's not allowed anymore. The previous owners encouraged it but now it's a no-no.

Tyler: I call it historic tagging instead of graffiti. Which speaking of which, over in the South Junior Officer Quarters in one of the rooms over there, when last year we were doing painting, wallpaper repair, re-oiling the floors, and wood grain staining. It's just a very complicated process. So to do it you have to have bare wood and then you prime it and usually with clear white pine it absorbs primer so quick and so much you have to prime them twice. So two layers of primer, a layer of Franciscan Ivory paint and then a layer of stain then another-- which then you wait to get slightly tacky, paint thinner and a brush and a rag and you go over that you're trying to thin it out where it has these wood grain stains you can see the layer down below. And then you do that for a second layer of stain. And then you got to go with your clear coat of poly to give it a nice shiny look so that's six coats and those coats of stain from the best guesses of I guess a guy back in the 1980s those coats of stain sometimes are not even like straight up this color that color they're two different colors or they're two different colors mixed together.

Lynn: So why was it important for you to do six layers of staining and painting?

Tyler: Because that's the way it was done.

Lynn: Even back in the day that's the way it was done?

Tyler: That's, yep. So that is what to our absolute best guess what they were done. Another one of those skills that you have to learn that you don't get when you go to other places. It's like I was like getting some tips from like some other people who've done it before but then I'm like you know I like to look up stuff myself like I wonder if there's anybody online who like oil grains staining-- yeah, no. So I'm just going to have to like learn this like the old school way of just like trial and error, trial and error like oh that's not right, clean a bunch of it up and try it again just trying to get these colors to match.

Lynn: So once upon a time you and I were talking about your career with the Park Service and you said to me something that I loved. You said-- obviously there's pros and cons to being a seasonal employee. One of the things that you really loved about being seasonal and about moving around from park to park was that you felt in some ways like you were retiring in reverse. And I've never heard anyone say that before, I thought it was fantastic and I'd love for you to describe what that means to you.

Tyler: It's such a millennial thing to do right now. You have-- I mean I have places I've worked I have a friend of mine, he's backpacking through Nepal right now and I don't-- I saw yesterday somewhere in Europe. He travels a lot he's like worked in like Moose over by the Grand Tetons like working at ski resorts and plowing roads and stuff like that. I see people come to the parks and they can't walk like even like certain steps even like handicap accessible areas they're still weary about because physically they can't do it any-- they can't do it. And you know some of the hikes that I go on, beautiful places like that you my buddy Justin shared the story about like he was-- people would ask him like as he was working near a National Park what's the best place to go here and he tell him go through this mountain range -- I think it was Grand Teton -- go through this mountain range it's a blueberry field between two mountain ranges and you can just eat blueberries. One of the most beautiful places he's ever seen and-- but those people couldn't do it because like is it a concrete path all the way out there like no it's a dirt path like ah we can't do dirt because of our bodies. It's just even if we get to an age where we can like retire if we make it there. Can you financially do it? And then are you mentally there? I'm going to have Alzheimer's when I get old that just-- it's just I'm guaranteed it. And I'm like so am I going to be mentally capable of do-- you know of enjoying it or doing it and then you know physically too. Yeah, it's not good in the pocketbook, you're traveling a lot you don't know exactly where you're going everywhere, but it is fun and enjoyable. Like I said I've been you know Kansas in the middle of nowhere as Fort Larned is, it is a wonderful nice place to stay and hang out in the people here and the history and the stuff to see in the area. Then I've been to New York and I've been to Ohio and it's just. By the way may I add how amazing it is this podcast right here with the three of us, we are in the middle of Central Kansas and we all at one time were residents of the state of New York we all lived in New York.

Ben: That's true. Lynn: That's true.

Tyler: Yeah as I really wanted to point that out this podcast and I don't want it edited out because that I found is fascinating we all three at one time lived-- I for not nearly as long as some of you guys but yeah.

Ben: Not at the same time.

Tyler: No, no, not at the same time but at some point we were all living in the state of New York.

Lynn: Sure.

Ben: Yeah

Lynn: So for you retiring in reverse means you're still working.

Tyler: Yep.

Lynn: But you're getting to do some of the things that folks dream about doing when they retire. You get to explore the National Parks you get to visit different parts of this country and really get into the nooks and crannies of what's interesting and beautiful about it. While you're working and while you're young enough to really enjoy it in that way.

Tyler: Yeah and people don't realize you know well years ago me and some co-workers we took a camping trip out in the middle out in the middle of the prairie in the middle of nowhere. You're like oh no you got to have like this great scenery like the prairie in the areas out here is it's great scenery in itself until you're out here even outside of the cities really and just enjoying that. We camped out there and just did primitive camping out there we're like this is just nice and wonderful. And then I'm gone you know and camped in the Adirondack mountains up in New York up in the Catskills and everything. Oh just wonderful places been to Niagara Falls and then at the end of seasons I take, you know, I take a week to get back to Iowa where I usually hang out in my offseason. So I've go to all these different places and like the Great Smokey Mountains. If you see a place stop at it.

Lynn: I would say that's the other thing the three of us have in common is totally enjoying American history, Americana, the diversity of this country. That's why we like the National Parks too.

Ben: Absolutely. Now to finish us off the one question that we always ask. How can our listeners help?

Tyler: Just don't play around with the buildings, go in don't touch things when you're not supposed to. Just leave the park as you came in. The only people who should be making changes to it is me because that's my actual job. And there's actual ways I have to go we have we talked about some of the ways and we have compliances and everything to do-- it's doing my job takes a lot of-- you have to do it this way and that way and this way and that way and this way and like oh yeah it's more complicated with you know historic preservation. So yeah just leave the parks the way you come in but enjoy them and that's how you continue to enjoy it you know people who come back years later or decades later to a park they were at as a kid you know if we can preserve it to where it looks like that looks the same for them and the only changes that have been made have been made maybe for more visor access or more educational purposes that's wonderful. Just leave things the way they are and leave things the way they came in and then enjoy them while you're here because that's part of the job.

Ben: Absolutely.

Lynn: Awesome.

Ben: Well thank you for coming on and thank you for giving your two cents on what you do here and thank you.

Lynn: Thanks Tyler.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Well thank you very much for listening we definitely enjoyed interviewing Tyler and we hope you enjoyed listening to it as well. Be sure to leave us a rating and review also be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter and check out our website we have a lot of great resources there for you.

Lynn: And also if you're looking for another hidden gem of the Midwest and the National Park Sites we're going to encourage you to follow along with Herbert Hoover National Historic Site's Facebook page, any social media, their website definitely a hidden gem that I'm sure my husband and I will be checking out after hearing Tyler talk about it. It sounds pretty wonderful.

Ben: It does! Yeah, so thank you again for taking a listen.

Lynn: We will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Host: Ben Long Co-host: Lynn King Guest: Tyler Blind Description: As the Fort's Carpenter/Historic Preservationist, Tyler Blind not only sees firsthand the repairs that need to be done to the Fort's historic structures, but he's also one of those making the repairs. In this episode, Tyler discusses historic preservation techniques and their importance to historic preservation and the importance of keeping what's here, here.

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