Season 2
4. Discovered, Preserved, and Told - Episode 4 - Luecreasea Horne
Transcript
Luecreasea Horne: Oral history piece of it is that he falls asleep down by the cottonwood tree down by the Solomon River that is to the south of Nicodemus and wakes up with this brilliant idea that is going he's going to create this all-black community. Several banks, newspapers, schools, churches, pharmacies, doctor's office, lawyer's office, title company, anything that you needed for your little town to survive Nicodemus had. These black folks they did it. Excuse me, you fast forward to about 1920s, 1930s and we have documentation of them bringing in carnival rides, so they had Ferris Wheels, Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had, they had they had it all.
Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Luecreasea Horne, a Park Ranger at Nicodemus National Historic Site and descendant of some of the original settlers of the town of Nicodemus.
Ben Long: So welcome Luecreasea.
Luecreasea: Thank you.
Ben: Thanks for coming in, talking with us today about your experiences. As with all our other guests, as we get started why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your experiences in the Park Service, and your experiences there at Nicodemus.
Luecreasea: Excellent! So yes, my name is Luecreasea Horne, and I am a Park Ranger there at Nicodemus National Historic Site. If you're familiar with Kansas get on I-70 and get over to Hays, Kansas, and from Hays, Kansas head north for a little less than an hour, and Nicodemus is right there off of Highway 24. And so, I work there and I am a sixth generation descendant. So what that actually means is that my great great great grandparents Tom and Zerena Johnson and their three kids. They came over with that first group from Kentucky and helped established Nicodemus.
Ben: That's really cool.
Luecreasea: I think so.
Ben: That's really cool to have that connection. Now is Nicodemus the only Park Service site you've worked at? No, I started off when-- so Nicodemus became a unit of the park service in '96 and so they needed a summer help and I applied and I got on and worked during the summers. And then after I graduated from Fort Hays State University, go Tigers, I had some mentors in the Park Service that were like you shouldn't maybe try to pursue this as a career. And so I was like do I really want to be a-- you know, work with the Park Service? Do I want to be in Interp and have to wear the uniform all this time? 'Cuz I-- even though I did it and I and I wore the uniform, I thought Park Rangers were a little, a little, how do I be PC here? I thought we were nerds, okay?
Kristin Keith: This safe space for that.
Ben: Which we are.
Luecreasea: Thank you. I know, yeah, right? And so, I'm in that nerd category, no. I didn't know if I wanted to work with the Park Service, but I was like, I don't have anything else going on, let me apply. And so, I got on permanently at Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, the Arch there in St. Louis.
Ben: That's awesome.
Luecreasea: Yeah.
Ben: So how long did you work there?
Luecreasea: I worked there a little under, almost three years, not quite three years. And just to throw this out there, my first day on the job was 9/11.
Kristin: Oh wow.
Ben: Oh wow.
Luecreasea: Yes, so I didn't have any cable or my phone or anything hooked up in my apartment yet. And so I'm all walking down to the Arch that morning and I don't know what's going on, I'm like this is my first day on the job, and so when I walk into the entryway, everybody is gathered together and I'm like, "Wow okay, this is how they start the-- this is how they start the morning, it's pretty intense." And they keep talking and I'm listening and they're like "Uh yeah we have this catastrophe that's gone on and in and the airplanes have flown into the buildings." And so they weren't sure if they were targeting other monuments, and so they was like, you know we don't know if they are targeting the Arch or anything like that so they were going to send us home. And I just have to throw this in there. So first day on the job I didn't have a phone or cable, or anything set up and in this in this whole group of us there's probably I'd say about 50 of us all together, all the groups all together, and this lady comes up and she's just she looks flustered and she's like "Is there a Luecreasea Holmes here?" And I'm like, "Yeah." "Your mom is on the phone." And she said, "Call her." Yeah, so she tracked me down, she tracked me down. But yeah, so that was my first day on the job, but I stayed there a little under a year. Arch was great, it was beautiful, worked over at the old courthouse, was able to work with the kids with the coming in and visiting and doing all that, worked at the top of the arch and inside of the museum, so it was it was a great time.
Ben: That's cool.
Kristin: Give us some background of the Nicodemus community. What is the story there/
Luecreasea: So, excuse me, very unique story, it starts off that W.R. Hill, white gentleman from Indiana, has gone around and he has he's built towns, tried to tried to build up towns. He was successful a few times. And the oral history piece of it is that he falls asleep down by the cottonwood tree down by the Solomon River that is to the south of Nicodemus and wakes up with this brilliant idea that he's going to create this all-black community, and capitalism at its best, because he's going to charge these folks to come and live in Nicodemus. And so he-- they formed the Nicodemus Town Company, the other gentleman that he's with is the minister W.H. Smith, a black minister out of Kentucky, and he's in the on the eastern part of Kansas. And so, they meet up and they talk, and he tells him his idea and so Smith is like "I know where we can go get these folks." And so they go back to Kentucky where Smith was from, and they go to the churches and they tell them about this opportunity of the land of milk and honey. You'll be able to have your own land and do whatever you want to in Nicodemus, and so--
Kristin: And what year was that?
Luecreasea: So that was 1877. 1877 when they're telling them this. Excuse me, when they're telling them this. And so they're-- most of the folks are from Kentucky, but others from Tennessee and Mississippi and eastern part of Kansas and just all over, but the bulk of the group is from Kentucky. So the folks that helped start Nicodemus are folks who were previously enslaved. So, this is about 13 years after they had been emancipated. So these folks are the blacksmiths, the carpenters, these type of people who have just a little bit of money saved up so that they can make this trip and pay for their land in Nicodemus. And so when I tell folks this, some people are familiar with the Exoduster movement. And so the Exoduster movement is 3 years after Nicodemus happens, and that's when mass migration of blacks are leaving the south and unfortunately a lot of those folks were destitute, didn't have anything, just were leaving the south just to get out of the south. The people of Nicodemus that came, Hill is targeting these folks because they have a little bit of money. And so, we make sure we convey that story to people because they had to pay for their $5 for their piece of land, their train ticket, and have a little bit of money to try to survive that first year. So these people are tough, gritty, determined, and have a lot of faith.
Kristin: Sure.
Luecreasea: Yeah.
Ben: Now growing up, how much of the knowledge of your family-- your family's history of Nicodemus and even just the history of Nicodemus were you aware of?
Luecreasea: I was-- out of a lot of my cousins, I was unique in the situation that my mother and Angela Bates, my cousin Angela. So my mother and Angela, first cousins because their moms were sisters. Angela is the-- she founded the Nicodemus Historical Society and then my mother, she was always involved with Nicodemus and just wanted to always see it to try to grow. And so, these ladies in their late 30s and early 40s, I'm sitting listening to them talk about Nicodemus and see them put sweat equity into Nicodemus. And so, I was able to hear the history and see the history as a young girl, and that they just imparted that in me. At the time, I could care less, like we got to go volunteer to plant trees, oh? I got to volunteer at Homecoming? I'm trying to-- I'm trying to get my party on! But so, as that young girl myself and my two brothers, we were always told the history and we had we had to live it and walk and put that sweat equity into Nicodemus.
Kristin: But now you're so appreciative that that was your experience.
Luecreasea: Amen, amen, amen. I'm like wow, thank you, mhm.
Ben: So one of my big questions coming into this, that I had for you, was having such a personal tie and knowing the history early on, has that been a help or a hindrance when inspiring visitors at Nicodemus?
Luecreasea: I would say is has been an help when talking to visitors because one of the top two questions besides where the restroom is at, is they want to know are there any descendants that still live in Nicodemus? And so I'm able to say, "Yes, you're looking at one right here" and they go, "Oh my goodness, you work for the Park Service, how great is that?" Like no, it's awesome. So being able to let them know that there are descendants that still live in Nicodemus, work in Nicodemus, and then the 20 or so folks that live there, that that definitely helps when speaking to the visitors. Working with the Park Service, on my family side of it, I have to work-- I have to walk a tight rope because they see me in uniform and then they're like, "Well can the Park Service do this for us? Can you do..." You know, so I'm like "Well no I can't I can't do that or that, but maybe we can do this or that." If that makes sense. So with the family I have to work-- they're proud that I'm in the uniform and that I'm representing us and telling our story, but then they're also like "Well they can you guys-- can we borrow 17 chairs and 15..." Well let's fill out some information and usage and all that good stuff. So I have to work-- walk that tight rope.
Kristin: What do you feel like is the most memorable part of your family story there?
Luecreasea: Oh my goodness. The most memorable part. So it would be-- so she would be my great great grandmother Emma Williams, she comes over with her mom and dad Tom and Zarena, but she's pregnant. And so she gets on the train and rides the train with everybody else, they get off at Ellis, Kansas and then she has to walk over to Nicodemus with everybody else. She has to walk over to Nicodemus and she's like eight months pregnant doing this. And so, when she reaches Nicodemus and there's nothing there, folks are folks are devastated but they're saying, "Hey we're going to make this work." So, they build her dugout first and they get there in September and she has Henry the first baby born in Nicodemus in October. So she's, yeah that's how pregnant she is.
Kristin: Yeah.
Luecreasea: So just the determination and the grit I was like "Wow these folks are, these folks are-- they were built different." But we did, with the Nicodemus Historical Society a reenactment of the Ellis Trail. So from Ellis Kansas to Nicodemus is the trail that they took to get to Nicodemus. And so Angela wrote a whole script for us and we had cousins that flew in from all over and we had wagon trains and we didn't do the full 35 miles, We only walked probably a mile and a half, but it felt like 35 miles. We're in period clothing, we're trying to keep up with the wagons, it's in September, It was hot, we're walking in the tall grass, people are falling in badger holes, we're looking out for snakes, and I'm just like, we need to have this where the only way you can come back for Homecoming and participate is if you do the Ellis Trail, so you have a real appreciation of what they went through, yeah.
Ben: Yeah, no, that's one thing in doing living history and reenacting, that you really get a true appreciation for our ancestors and just how tough they were.
Luecreasea: Man, a whole different level cuz we had-- you know, I had the boots on and then the dress from the neck all the way down to your ankles and you're trying to walk, and it was just like, wow.
Kristin: Although, people always say that to me but I'm like well, but you didn't know what you were missing then.
Luecreasea: True, true.
Ben: Yeah, it was just the way of life was just.
Kristin: It was just hard, and you didn't know any different.
Ben: Yeah, makes you wonder what our descendants will think of us. So, but I've been curious too because, I mean I've worked at helping out at Nicodemus here and there, but of course you working there for longer and having a personal connection. What do you see as people's first response like what draws them to the park and then what do they go away with?
Luecreasea: Right. What draws them to the park is they, if they know about Nicodemus, then they are interested in this story of these formerly enslaved folks who come and are able to build this, at one time prosperous town. And so they're intrigued with that story. And I always try to impart and let people know, I always say if you don't leave-- if you only leave with these two things from Nicodemus, know that yeah there were black folks that came west. As if in the movies if they're not showing black folks going west during that time, you don't think there were any black folks going west, yes there were black folks that were going west. And then there were black folks who were landowners, and they were so proud of that that they were landowners. And so they were able to like I mentioned 13 year-- 13, 14 years removed from being enslaved coming to this unknown territory and you have this opportunity to own your own land. And I was like, how awesome is that? How awesome is that? And that's what I tried to make the people understand that these people even though they were lied to and told that this was, you know, this mecca of a place with hundreds and thousands of trees where you can build your home and wild horses that if you can catch them you can tame them and they're yours. And when they get there there's just absolutely nothing there, and they have to build it from the ground up. And Nicodemus on the 160 acres, the town site, several banks, newspapers, schools churches, pharmacies, doctor's office, lawyer's office, title company, anything that you needed for your little town to survive Nicodemus had. These black folks they did it.
Kristin: How many visitors do you get that have no idea of your story? Just stumble upon on the site and stop and then you get the opportunity to introduce them to this story that they know nothing about.
Luecreasea: I would say probably about 30% to 40% of our visitors have no clue. They're coming to get their stamp. Or they was like this said this was a rest area you know.
Kristin: Yeah.
Luecreasea: I need to use the restroom. So, I would say about 30% to 40% of the folks don't have a clue what Nicodemus is about, and I love that because I'm able to tell them and I'm like "Yeah, oh you want to use the restroom hold on let me tell you." No, or I'm standing right there when they come out and I get to--. No, but I'm able to tell that story and give it to them and then for the people who want to hear it, they walk away like "Wow we had no idea." And they appreciate that.
Ben: Now admittedly Fort Larned and Nicodemus don't have the biggest annual visitation.
Luecreasea: Yeah.
Ben: Unfortunately cuz they're both absolute gems.
Luecreasea: Yes.
Ben: But they are National Parks still and there's federal funding that goes to keeping our doors open and--
Luecreasea: Yes.
Ben: educating the public on the stories that are here. What would you argue for sites like Nicodemus and Fort Larned, what is your argument for them staying National Parks?
Luecreasea: So even though I was talking stuff earlier about Park Service folks being nerds, I was I was talking stuff, I love being a Park Ranger and I love being a part of the Park Service. And what I absolutely love about it is it tells everyone's story, yes. And that's what America is, we all have a story and the Park Service tells everyone's story. And so Nicodemus is a part of that story. This is after reconstruction and this is you know, folks are you know, manifest destiny "Go west young man" and so these folks had an opportunity and the Homestead Act to participate in that and telling the story of African-Americans participating in that needs to be told.
Kristin: It seems to be a theme that we've heard today in interviewing other people that the Park Service tells stories of not only famous people, but regular people. And I never thought about that before and so it's been really interesting to kind of focus on that today that, yeah.
Ben: Yeah I mean it's tough when you're in school, you're studying history it is really just the notable figures and events and things like that but when you really get into the nitty-gritty of history, you realize oh that was just a piece of the puzzle. Like what made up the majority of the puzzle was people just like you and me.
Luecreasea: Yes.
Ben: People just trying to live their life and try to contribute where they can and when you really get down to history that's what really makes it interesting is realizing that these people were confronted with the same situations that we are sometimes or at least same choices that we have to make on a daily basis, which is why history is so important and so interesting.
Luecreasea: Amen to that, yep. Good to tell everybody's story.
Ben: Yeah
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Phil Grossardt: Our biggest event of the year is just around the corner! join us on May 24th through the 26th for our annual Memorial Day weekend event. Experience this historic fort as it comes to life with the sights, sounds, and smells of a frontier post from 160 years ago. Firing demonstrations, blacksmith demonstrations, programs, and more will be sure to educate and entertain the whole family. Come for one day or all three and experience history for yourself. For more information call us at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov. All too soon we're a part of history, help preserve our past today. The Fort Larned Old Guard is a nonprofit organization designed to benefit programs and operations at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Over the years, The Fort Larned Old Guard has bought artifacts with direct provenance to Fort Larned, commission paintings dealing with Fort Larned's story, and much more. If you enjoy what we do at Fort Larned, please consider donating to The Fort Larned Old Guard or becoming a member. Visit triple "w", "f" "t" old guard dot com, that's www.ftlarnedoldguard.com for more details on donating and membership.
[Music fades in and out]
Ben: So I know usually a park has like their big event during the year and of course Nicodemus it's Homecoming. So for those who might not know what Homecoming is all about can you explain a little bit about that and maybe the significance for those who come for it?
Luecreasea: Yes, yes. So it started out as the Emancipation Proclamation Day. And so they took that from Kentucky and so our descendants who were enslaved at that time, usually the beginning of August when there is nothing to plant or harvest their-- the slave masters would allow them to have a weekend where the other plantations they were able to get together and celebrate and things like that. So they brought that tradition with them out there to Nicodemus. So they get there in September of 1877, and then that summer of 1878, they say we're still going to have our Emancipation Day. And so-- well they named it Emancipation Proclamation Day, and so that August of 1878 they had that and so at this time, the census had it at around I think around 700 people that lived in Nicodemus and around the town site of township of Nicodemus. And so down by the grove, which is kind of down by the Solomon River where a grove of trees were down there they set up this celebration. And so for the weekend that Friday, Saturday, and Sunday they said that they had horse races and, excuse me, baseball games and set up food stands and just had different activities and then ended it on a Sunday going, everybody going to church. Well they continued that year after year and it was still down at the groves for a long time, excuse me. You fast forward to about 1920s, 1930s and we have documentation of them bringing in carnival rides, so they had Ferris wheels, yeah, yeah, yeah, they had it all. Exhibition baseball teams were coming in and playing games, boxing matches, politicians were coming to Nicodemus to come and speak, and they said that it got up to anywhere to about 2,000 to 3,000 people that would come, yes, during that time and I try to imagine that many people coming for homecoming down there in the grove. And so they continued that tradition year after year and then eventually they move it up. So the Grove is down by the river and then they move it up to the town, the center of town. And so that's where our township hall and everything is at, and so folks started calling it Homecoming because by this time, people had left and then they would come back for the event and so everybody just started calling it Homecoming. But we've been doing it for a hundred and this year will be 147 years.
Kristin: Wow.
Luecreasea: Yeah, and so just family that can make it they come back, we know it's that last weekend in July, the hottest possible time. I was like "Oh not hot enough? Okay let's just wait till it's hot enough." We have vendors that set up in the park, we have people who come down and participate in the activities and we've been doing it for 147 years.
Ben: Wow.
Luecreasea: Yeah.
Kristin: What other events do you have during the year?
Luecreasea: So we have our, excuse me, our Chautauqua that we do and in conjunction with the Nicodemus Historical Society and so the Chautauqua she puts on different port-- we portray different folks in the past. And so like I've played my great great grandmother Emma Williams and Edward P. McCabe and W.H. Sayers and so people W.L. Sayers, excuse me, Chautauqua. We do different activity-- or different events during the year for the park service but Chautauqua, oh my goodness, pioneer days, and so that was when they really set up Nicodemus and so those are some of the different things we do.
Kristin: Okay.
Ben: Now for those who haven't visited Nicodemus or know of its history, who are some of the notable figures to come out of that town?
Luecreasea: Oh my goodness. So W.L. Sayers, he was a the first county-- black county attorney in the state of Kansas. We have Verl Schwitzer, he played football at K-State and then he also played for the Green Bay Packers. We have the Kansas Comet Sayers, Gail Sayers, he didn't grow up in Nicodemus, but his grandparents were from Nicodemus and so he played at KU and then he played for the Chicago Bears. We have Angela who's a whirlwind and she's just going and going and going trying to keep Nicodemus alive. And if you guys are listening forgive me if I forget somebody's name but Ben put me on the spot on other notables, yeah. Edward P. McCabe, he was the first black auditor for the state of Kansas, yes. Voted in for that. So yeah.
Ben: That's cool. No and when I was up there 'cuz I was working with Dan, another one of your Rangers
Luecreasea: Yes.
Ben: And we did a little baseball thing back in October,
Luecreasea: Yeah, that was nice, yeah.
Ben: But-- and we were talking a little bit about Satchel Paige.
Luecreasea: Oh yes.
Ben: I know he's not from Nicodemus but played there. Was that at one of the Homecoming celebrations or?
Luecreasea: So I don't think it was at the homecoming celebration, but they did come out and play against our team and so the folklore is that Freddy Schwitzer, now Freddy was a phenomenal athlete, and they said he could have played baseball but back then you didn't leave your family to go play baseball. You know, you stayed and worked and so he could have played with the Negro League, but they say that he hit a home run off of Satchel Page. And I'm like...
Kristin: It happened, it happened!
Luecreasea: Okay, okay.
Ben: We'll say it happened.
Luecreasea: Right, was that a foul ball tip you got you got a piece of it and it's a home run? I need video evidence proof.
Ben: Yeah, that's awesome. So sort of bringing it back to Fort Larned, what are some of the ties that you see in between the two sites?
Luecreasea: Definitely. So Buffalo Soldiers, yes. And then I was able to come out here, so when I started off earlier in my career as a Park Guide, I would come out here and be a laundress and work as a laundress out here. And so it's interesting hearing George talk about the black laundress and how they made, he told me I never knew this, cuz I didn't do any research...
Kristin: They were wealthy.
Luecreasea: Yeah the black laundresses were, yeah, they made the most money, and I was like well okay then. So I thought that was very interesting. So that connection and then the Buffalo Soldier connection is pretty cool between Larned and Nicodemus, yeah.
Ben: Were there any Buffalo Soldiers that ended up settling in Nicodemus?
Luecreasea: Yes, yes, two: Samuel Garland and then Nathaniel Moore Jr. He was-- yes, those are our noted Buffalo Soldiers, but of course we have military from, yeah.
Ben: Yeah, no and you were able to come out this last summer to help us filming for the window to the past.
Luecreasea: Window to the past, that was pretty cool.
Ben: As of right now we're still working on it but hopefully this next year it'll be in the museum, so we're looking towards the laundress quarters and of course representing the Black laundresses there too which is really cool.
Luecreasea: Yeah that was really cool, really cool. I thought that was very interesting that they got paid the most.
Ben: Yeah, yeah no, they were they were well off. I know there's um I'm sure it happened with the Black laundresses too but I know there's an account of a sergeant who would be paid about $20 a month who was married to a laundress, so she's making up to $40 a month, and their daughter was also a laundress, so they could be pulling in close to $100 a month.
Luecreasea: Oh wow, they was living fat on the hog as my grandma would say.
Ben: So and like we were saying too that's the story of everyday people. I mean they're not-- don't really get any mention in history books, but they're part of history nonetheless.
Luecreasea: That's cool.
Ben: Yeah. Well was there anything else you'd like to add?
Luecreasea: No this is great, Thank you for having me and this is great that you guys are doing this and you know hopefully folks that are listening to it you guys come on down and check us out in Nicodemus.
Ben: Absolutely. We're just a two-hour drive from Fort Larned. So if you're hitting one you might as well hit the other.
Luecreasea: Yep, yeah. Hey we get that all the time do people say when I tell them I was like tell Ben I said "Hi" down from Nicodemus?
Ben: Yeah.
Luecreasea: Yeah, okay because we get that too they're like yeah "Ben said to tell you hi." I'm like okay.
Ben: Like I said there's not a lot of connections, I mean as Nicodemus was coming up Fort Larned was dying down. But it is cool to connect those bits of history, so.
Luecreasea: Yeah.
Ben: So yeah, thank you for coming on, sharing your story, and hopefully get some folks to go up to Nicodemus.
Luecreasea: Right on.
Ben: Have a good one.
Luecreasea: Thank you.
Phil Grossardt: As always Fort Larned National Historic Site is open 7 days a week from 8:30 a.m. until 4:30 p.m. and is just 6 miles west of Larned, so stop by for a visit. If you're interested in learning how you can help Fort Larned National Historic Site, give us a call at 620-285-6911 or email us at fols_internet@nps.gov and ask us about volunteer opportunities. Now back to the rest of the episode.
Ben: Welcome to the discussion portion of the episode where we break down the interview and how it applies to Fort Larned. I'm Ranger Ben one of the Park Rangers here at Fort Larned National Historic Site. I do a lot of work with our social media, obviously with the podcast as well, and enjoy living history a lot. I'm also joined by Kristin Keith.
Kristin: Thanks, Ben, for asking me to join you this year. I've been volunteering out here at Fort I think for around 10 years now, I enjoy doing living history working with school groups that come through with some education programs and tours. I'm involved in Fort Larned Old Guard, I'm currently serving as chair, and also part of the Santa Fe Trail Association, our local chapter, Wet/Dry Route Chapter and the Learned Historical Society.
Ben: Also joining me is Liz Rasmussen.
Liz Rasmussen: Thanks, Ben, for having me. I have been volunteering at the Fort for about a year and a half. I really enjoy living history and learning more about the history of Fort Larned, which is so local here in Kansas, it's kind of cool to have something local that has such a big impact on how Larned was established and how the fort was established.
Ben: Well that was another wonderful interview, I always love talking to Luecreasea and hearing her passion about Nicodemus and the National Park Service. One of the big things that stuck out to me is her ability to connect any visitor of Nicodemus to the story of Nicodemus. I mean that is what all of us interpreters strive for is connecting the person to the resource the, visitors to the resource, but the fact that one of the most common questions is: "Is there any descendants still living here?" And she's able to say that "Yeah and you're looking at one." is just super cool. That she's able to that quickly connect people to the resource.
Kristin: I mean yeah, what a unique perspective she has. I think she said she's a sixth generation there. So her family has been there from the very beginning and she's now there, so you know it's just her family's been a part of Nicodemus from the beginning to the present. And you know, how many historic sites have anyone who can say that? I don't know, are there any out there? Let us know. But yeah, what a unique perspective she has and it's so fun to visit with her to hear about everything that she's seen in her lifetime there.
Liz: I think it's great that she said her great great great grandparents helped start Nicodemus and then she was going through school and then came-- ended up coming back to Nicodemus where her grandparents helped start it, that's really cool. That was one of my favorite parts of the interview.
Kristin: Yes and again, you know her experience I hope will inspire other people to go into the Park Service 'cuz when you have a passion about history or a particular place you know, what better way than to honor that than to go into service to share it with others, definitely.
Ben: Yeah, and she has the ability especially with how her mom was involved with getting it to be a permanently preserved site, she had a front row seat to the stories that were being told and she's able to be that-- able to have that information and be able to pass that on to the next generation too.
Kristin: Absolutely. We visited a little bit about the interview, about her experience on 9/11 and I mean we could talk about it for an hour, but my heart just went out to her when she, you know, she's a young Park Ranger and her first day on the job and at a historic site and there's a historic event taking place, you know, and just what a crazy way to begin your career on a day like that.
Ben: Yeah, I can't even imagine that. No and what's really cool about working at Fort Larned is our proximity to Nicodemus. It is a 2-hour drive, but we are the closest National Park to them and we do quite a bit of things-- we do quite a few things together and we help support them, they help support us. So it's really fun to go up there, I've gone up for the last 2 or 3 years for their Homecoming event, and that's really cool to see everyone, it really is just a big family there and it's almost like a big family reunion every year. And I think that is the focus, but you do also have the history there of what's come before. And so it's fun to be a part of that and help those who have already a connection to the site, to help them see some of that, because they might not know, maybe they're just tagging along with their family of "Hey this is what we do every year." But then to show the national significance of where they came from and see the passion in their own experience, that's really cool to see too.
Kristin: I think it's true of both parks that they're both kind of an unknown. It's not like there was some significant Civil War battle you know that everyone knows about. I think she was saying that you know 30%, 40% of the visitors who come through there actually know the story of Nicodemus and I would say you know that's probably true of Fort Larned too, you know. Until you are here and you get to experience the story, it's you know, nothing that you probably learned at school, it's just you know, and so it's so important to share sites like that and parks like these with people just to get the history out there to people who've never heard it before.
Ben: Yeah and that's sort of my challenge to people who their own exper-- their primary experience with history is from high school and maybe a little bit of college is to go experience some of these sites for yourself because as we've been talking about this season, it's really just the story of everyday people. And while yeah, there are certain significant dates and certain significant names, when you get right down to it, it's the people who settled Nicodemus and the challenges they faced in doing that. And then there's the people who lived and worked here at the fort and the challenges of coming to the fort and I mean you're-- there's no FaceTime or cell phones or anything like that, that you're pretty well disconnected from everybody that you know back home. And so you have to really create your own community in that sense.
Kristin: Yeah and I love how she emphasized the fact that those people were so tough and had grit, which is another thing that I think we can share between the two parks is the people who were living here were tough human beings. You know, the things that they-- their-- what their daily life consisted of and that they truly were extraordinary people who had a job to do, were trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, so.
Liz: I liked her story about the baseball, Who was it that hit the home run off of?
Ben: Freddy Schwitzer hit the home run off of Satchel Page, allegedly. We're going to go with it.
Kristin: Yeah.
Liz: I-- that was fun to listen to, the way she told that story, I loved it.
Ben: Yeah. And again that connection to history, and that's a thing too like in going to these historic sites. Yeah these people were tough, but what decisions led up to making the decision to come out west to really forsake pretty much everyone you know? I mean you might be able to communicate via mail, but that's it. So what led to those decisions and what would lead you to those similar decisions of, I need to pick up and totally transplant myself?
Kristin: Well it's just an extraordinary story that there's only 10 years' time-- between the time that you were enslaved to the time that you were a land owner. I mean it's just an incredible story.
Ben: Like you said too, both Fort Larned and Nicodemus are kind of hidden gems and I know here at the fort, my experiences, most everyone who comes through here says more people should know about it. And I think the same goes for Nicodemus too that a lot of those visiting there it's, I mean it's a relatively unknown story and so to be able to not experience it firsthand, but to experience the stories firsthand, of just the determination of these everyday people that made a way for us to have the life we have now.
Kristin: Absolutely, yeah.
Ben: Is really cool.
Liz: I haven't been in Nicodemus, but what I like about Fort Larned is everything is so well preserved. You don't necessarily need a tour guide to bring you through the buildings because it tells it story on its own. Everything is so detailed and so well preserved, it tells its story on its own.
Ben: And thankfully we're getting there with Nicodemus.
Liz: Good.
Ben: The Park Service just got the Baptist Church I believe this last year, so we're working on restoration with that. When I started work here about 5 years ago, they were finishing up work on the AME Church. And so, I saw pictures of what it looked like beforehand And it's a little of what the Baptist church looks like right now, but if you look at it today you could hardly tell that it was ever in disrepair. So I'm really looking forward to being able to see the end product of that someday and hopefully more of the structures that are interpreted there being managed by the Park Service as well. Well we hope you enjoyed listening to this episode as much as we enjoyed being a part of it. We hope you join us next month for our next episode and we hope you join us for the rest of the season. Until next time, have a good one.
Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. Join us next month as we talk with Heather Brown, the Chief of Interpretation at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, share footsteps with your friends and family, and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and X, and as always, enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website www.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast.
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Guest: Luecreasea Horne Hosts: Ben Long, Kristin Keith, and Liz Rasmussen This episode, we talk with Luecreasea Horne, a Park Ranger at Nicodemus National Historic Site and a sixth generation descendent of the original settlers of Nicodemus. Join us as we talk about the history of Nicodemus and its connection to Fort Larned!