Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

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The official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Here, we seek to involve our staff, volunteers, visitors, and virtual visitors in the story of Fort Larned and its place in the National Park Service. Join us as we dive into various topics relating to Fort Larned, the Santa Fe Trail, the cultures that interacted here, and how we manage all of that in relation to the National Park Service mission.

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Season 1

March 2, 2024

7. Season 1 Bonus Episode

Transcript

Transcript

[Footsteps intro music plays]

Ben Long: Welcome back to footsteps the Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast. Here we are on our bonus episode, episode 7 of season 1. This season we took a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future and today we sort of take a look at different perspectives of some volunteers and visitors at our annual Labor Day event here in 2023 is the year. It is very hot; it was about 100° this weekend but we still got some good perspectives from a wide range of people. I'm your host Ranger Ben co-hosting with me again is our intern, Carter. Carter co-hosted with me on the first episode of this season, so if you hadn't had a chance to listen to that, definitely take a look at that but welcome back Carter.

Carter Atteberry: Thank you, I'm happy to be back.

Ben: As we got some interesting perspectives from different people, one of my favorite things was just the passion that that people seem to have about Fort Larned and hearing from the visitors almost the surprise that they have of what we have here.

Carter: Oh yeah. I think it's really good what we got in this episode. You know, we got to interview a variety of people. We got a younger volunteer, a volunteer that's not originally from the area, we got a volunteer's mom, we also were able to get a couple visitors and then everybody gave us a unique perspective that was really insightful.

Ben: Hearing these different perspectives almost makes you stop taking what you have for granted in a way.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Ben: And while I don't ever try to take this place for granted, I think it just naturally happens sometimes and hearing some outside perspectives is always fun to hear what other people think about this place.

Carter: Oh yeah, we'll never get to experience our first time at Fort Larned again, so it's good to get a new perspective on it.

Ben: So I hope you enjoy these various perspectives and I hope you enjoy the episode.

Carter: Have fun!

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright here we have Asher from Kansas. He's been doing some reenacting out here the last couple years, right?

Asher: Yeah, I've been-- I started reenacting last year.

Ben: He's been playing the drum for when we march around and things like that and sounding better and better. This season we're focusing on Fort Larned's past, present, and future and taking a look at what that looks like. And so, as someone who reenacts the past and sees these buildings as they appeared in the past, but you're here in the present and maybe you see a little bit of the future, what's your perspective and sort of what keeps you coming back to do this kind of thing?

Asher: I don't know it's just really cool cuz I get to see like the new people and meet new faces and I just, I don't know I think it's really cool just to almost be like in the footsteps of like what a soldier would have been doing and acting like, wearing attire and all the stuff that would have happened back then is just really cool and they kind of living it.

Ben: Even when it's 100 degrees outside and--

Asher: Oh yeah, honestly though I kind of like it with I feel better in the sack coat and the shirt yeah, I feel more comfortable wearing this than I do wearing just a t-shirt out in the 100° weather.

Carter: I wish I had that problem.

Ben: And that's one of the more common questions we get too especially when it's hot out is: are you hot? And I think when it's 100° everybody's miserable no matter what you're wearing.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Ben: But you really get a new perspective for what these guys went through 150 years ago. I mean, I can't imagine being out on guard squad for 2 hours in the beating sun.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Asher: That would suck.

Carter: I feel like that also gives you a greater appreciation for what you have now. I mean, I stand outside for an hour and a half and I have pink stains all over my shirt because of my handkerchief. I'm like man I just can't wait to get back in the AC and then I'm in there it's just a whole new world and then these guys this is what they had. That's crazy to me.

Ben: What initially got you started in it? Cuz obviously there's got to be that little kick to sort of start doing--

Asher: Basally my-- I was-- I started out like loving the Civil War when I was really young. I watched like westerns and stuff with like my dad and I don't know I just kind of like liked the Civil War I just thought it was a cool thing and I actually went to Cowtown and there was like originally like these people and they kind of like gave me like this-- they put on they put a sack coat on me, it was really big on me though, I was like drowning in it. They messaged like my mother and was like they swapped like Facebook or something and was like yo you can sign up or whatever to join the-- their company, their group. That never happened. Like they like my mom messaged them and there was just no response. But that happened and then like a few years later we met this one really cool guy like named Robert. And Robert's a really cool guy. He was like open arms like we met him at Cowtown one time, then a couple years later we came back Civil War day, and then he just sort of like I was able to sit with the soldiers ate hardtack with them. Eventually like they my mom already had like his Facebook or whatever. He offered like hey you want to come down to Fort Larned my mom was like oh cool and he mentioned it previously like oh yeah they have like all the uniforms there you don't have to worry about bringing your own things. That was cool cuz I'm growing rapidly and I'm not going to spend like I don't know like $400 on a like a sack coat and maybe like a pair of pants and shoes, I'm just going to outgrow it in a couple months.

Ben: It had been a while since I had seen you, so when you came Memorial Day weekend you had just shot up and--

Carter: Oh yeah, it was crazy.

Ben: I don't think much of what fit you last year, fit you this year, so.

Asher: Yeah it doesn't really think-- the shoes hardly even fit me anymore. Like next time I come here I'm not going to be wearing these shoes.

Ben: That's another awesome thing about this site is we do have a lot of reproduction uniforms and things like that that our volunteers can use volunteers and reenactors can use. So really it just takes the gas money to get here and you get to dive into the hobby and explore it and see if it's right for you before really trying it up for yourself full time.

Asher: Yeah, I think it's an amazing hobby. You just really need like relations if that makes any sense, like you need to like know other people to get it started out. Like going to events is like the main way to like start it out, meet some people then they'll have you meet other people.

Ben: Yeah.

Carter: Yeah, I think we've gotten lucky out here we've got cool people like Robert and then Logan. Steve when they brought 11th OVC out back in April, we've had the chance to bring really cool people out because this is such a unique opportunity to do something you don't get this a whole lot. And we're like oh stay in the original buildings don't sleep on the grass. Experience a little bit of comfort with your life.

Ben: Yeah, get the full experience of garrison life all that.

Carter: So Asher.

Asher: Yeah.

Carter: I started coming out here at kind of a younger age. You're one of the youngest we have out here. What age did you start coming out here at?

Asher: 14 now so probably 13.

Carter: Yeah, you were pretty young. I started I was 16 I believe. And what keeps bringing you back out here? I don't know just to see you guys again and just to dress up it's really cool and just meet new people. I don't know I just like meeting new people. experiencing like the same kind of hobby as them and just like talking about it, cracking jokes every now and then, just messing around having fun and it's just kind of like a break from modern times in a way. You don't have to worry about all the stuff that's happening like there-- it's just kind of like your own little space if that makes any sense.

Ben: Yeah, disconnect from technology and things like that.

Carter: It's like a family.

Ben: Yeah

Carter: That's what I like to think about it.

Asher: Like I might check my phone every once in a while, but I'm not like on at 24/7 watching YouTube.

Ben: Any last things you want to add to this or?

Asher: I don't know. I think it's pretty cool there's a podcast now.

Ben: I think it's pretty cool too.

Asher: Yeah.

Ben: Hopefully this will be airing March of 2024 and as we're recording this it is Labor Day 2023 and it is hot outside. So I am I'm looking forward to the cooler temperatures of March though I know when we get to March I'm going to complain about the cold temperatures in March.

Carter: Oh yeah. And our first episode actually came out yesterday--

Ben: Yes.

Carter: September 2nd. I'm sure you guys have already listened to it but listen to it again.

Ben: It was a fantastic episode.

Carter: It was an amazing episode. I honestly found things out in that episode that I didn't even know about.

Ben: Yeah.

Asher: Oh that's cool.

Carter: I didn't know the difference between white wash and white paint I'm going to be totally honest.

Ben: Yeah and then I remember there's one part where you're like I didn't know the pillars--

Carter: Oh yeah the pillars. Just real casual, like oh yeah some of those pillars are original. I'm like uh-- uh--

Ben: Well thank you Asher for coming on and giving your perspective and look forward to seeing you back out here again.

Asher: Okay

Carter: Yeah.

Ben: Thank you.

Asher: You're welcome.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Now here we have Brad from Kansas. How's it going today?

Brad: It's going good, thank you.

Ben: If I'm not mistaken you've been reenacting for quite some time but this is your first time out here doing stuff at the Fort, right?

Brad: Yes it is.

Ben: How long have you been reenacting?

Brad: I got started American Civil War reenacting in 1994 at 13 years old.

Ben: So a few years.

Brad: Quite a few years. And ventured into other eras and it's been quite an expensive adventure.

Ben: And from talking with you and seeing your posts on Facebook and things like that, I see you been many places around the country many historic sites. What sort of motivates you to do that kind of thing?

Brad: Well I've always had a passion for history and especially American history because it's right here in our backyard and yes, the National Park Service, they have sites that cover natural sites like Yellowstone and Zion National Park which are beautiful, but they also cover and protect the human footprint that our ancestors have left us. Which these sites tell a story of our past.

Ben: As you go through the different historic sites you sort of start to connect pieces of history and it sort of-- once you pull on one piece of yarn, the whole thing comes unraveled and you follow this one story and it follows to this other one and this other one after it. And you haven't lived in Kansas your whole life.

Brad: No. I transplanted to Kansas winter of 2020.

Ben: Was that a culture shock for you at all?

Brad: I mean I came out here looking to explore history a little bit further. Like I said I've been to every American Civil War battlefield you could think of on the east coast, so I kind of came out here to take the time and study post-Civil Wa,r the American expansion era and the Plains conflict of the 1860s 1870s.

Ben: Now through that lens of looking at the different historic sites back east and out west, what are your thoughts on Fort Larned?

Brad: Fort Larned is a magnificent place. It is what we would perceive to be an actual military post of the 1850s to up to the 1870s and so on. As you watch many older TV shows or movies you always see the fort as a spiked wood surrounding a building which is not true unless it's Fort Necessity in Pennsylvania. But it-- this actually-- it it's a piece of American history from basically from the 18th century to the 20th century it fits right in the middle there that 19th century time period of American expansion west. So you have the Santa Fe Trail here which the fort was built to protect so you have this fort almost in pristine condition, the buildings the restoration here is great. I mean there's a lot of forts in Kansas that are unfortunately don't even exist anymore. They were all dismantled after the military left their post in 1880s.

Ben: Yeah, we're certainly very fortunate to have what we do and we owe a great deal of that to the-- those that had as a ranch and inadvertently preserved what was here.

Carter: What made you come back to reenacting?

Brad: Well I've always basically done it, it just I went from one time period and focused on another time period and since I'm out this way I'm kind of searching for any time period to kind of get back involved with. It's very few and far between here.

Carter: What got you into it into the first place?

Brad: Always had a passion for American history. For some reason, as was a child I got into it and when I grew up I lived a half hour from Valley Forge National Park which is a fascinating place which also tells a great story just like Fort Larned does. And I lived about 90 miles from Gettysburg National Battlefield so, it's just fascinating to go there and just as a kid look at all these cannons and monuments but then as you progress in your age and you can just study every individual monument, that's dedicated on that battlefield.

Ben: I think for me too growing up not too far away from Saratoga that was a big part of my interest in history is I was able to touch it and that's especially in your younger years when names and dates and all that are kind of broad things to wrap your mind around but to have a place that you can go to and read these monuments and picture where these people were I think it creates that connection.

Brad: Definitely with the preservation efforts that the-- a lot of the trust organizations and the National Park Service have done is you can actually almost just for example like Fort Larned here, if you look right you look like you are in the 1860s. I mean it is that well preserved and beyond it looks-- the Prairie still there for the most part. I mean you get that you just put yourself in somebody's shoes in 1868 and say this is what this place look like it's just like what the preservation at Shiloh National Battlefield or Gettysburg, you can almost traverse that that landscape and just try to figure out the who's and what's and where and why put yourself there 160 years later. It's amazing.

Carter: And that's one thing I'll probably always be jealous about, well at least a little bit. So growing up here I knew that we had a fort, I didn't really know much about it until I really had the drive to come in. Like you guys were able to grow up kind of around a lot of American History so you have the Revolutionary War, you have the 13 colonies, you have everything and hopefully someday I can go over there and try to experience some of that. But you do have a lot here.

Carter: Oh yeah.

Brad: You got the Butterfield Wagon Trail, you got the Santa Fe Trail, you got the every-- you just got all kinds of stuff and there's it's there it's just unfortunately it's not well promoted or preserved.

Carter: Yeah, and I'll never not be grateful for where I've grown up and what I've grown up with, but I would definitely like to get a good twist on what you guys got to experience through growing up around so much of that big stuff as I'm sure like with you wanting to study out here growing up around here helps with that a lot.

Brad: And just think of-- you're right smack in the middle of the country so you're just a couple hours' drive away from everything. I've done it this last year; I've been to Vicksburg and Shiloh all within a matter of two months. So you're right in the middle, it's just a drive away if you have a weekend and park the car get out take it on foot and interpret everything you can, every detail.

Ben: And that goes really for anyone in the country. I mean you're not too far away from historic sites no matter where you are so definitely taking a look at what those places have to offer whether they're National Park Service sites or other. But yeah we're fortunate to have what we do and I'm glad we're able to bring in folks like you to help interpret the story here.

Brad: Well thank you for having me.

Ben: Thanks for coming here and thanks for showing your perspective and we hope to see you back here more and more.

Brad: Well thank you very much, look forward to it.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright, here we have Hannah from Kansas. I think all our guests today here are from Kansas. But here we have a unique perspective of someone who has not only been to the Fort but also involved in behind the scenes a little bit. So how's it going today?

Hannah: It's going good, it's hot.

Ben: It is, yeah. So, this episode is set to air I believe in March, so I know I'm looking forward to the cooler weather, but I know once we get to March, I'm going to be complaining about how cold it is.

Hannah: Not me.

Ben: But yeah, so you were you were just telling me that you've-- been a while since-- it's been since you've been out here.

Hannah: About 13 years. When the last time we came was when my oldest was seven and she's now 20 and part of the Fort, so it's pretty neat to see that.

Ben: Now you're also involved with our friends group The Old Guard.

Hannah: Yes, I'm the treasurer and secretary.

Ben: Awesome.

Hannah: Yeah, that's been-- it's been a lot of fun.

Ben: So what encouraged you to become part of The Old Guard and become more involved in this site?

Hannah: So I got-- I recently was hired, well it's been about a year, to the Santa Fe Trail Association, I'm the office admin. And made some connections and the opening came available to be a treasurer and they said would you like, it I said sure that's pretty exciting. So that's ended up bringing in my oldest so that's how she was involved in being a reenactor so it's been a lot of been a lot of fun. Tried to get the other children involved and it's been a little too hot, so.

Ben: No, one thing that we often hear from a lot of people in the area is they're like, oh I've lived here for x amount of years and have never visited. And so not that I'm trying to say how dare you or anything like that but what sort of--

Hannah: Well I think our lives get too busy and we don't bother to look into our history. So recently I found out-- I'm from Cimmaron, Kansas -- recently found out my house is like a block down where the Cimmaron Ranch used to be at the Cimmaron Crossing Park.

Ben: Oh wow.

Hannah: I'm literally a stones throw away from it. So that was totally exciting when I came across that because I'm helping design the rest of the Santa Fe Trail Association website page. And so I was adding things on there and I was like, no way! It's pretty cool, yeah. I had no idea so I think it's you know us parents need to be a little more vocal about our history and getting our children out there and checking it out, so.

Ben: And seeing what's in our own backyards.

Hannah: Yeah, definitely.

Ben: And I've seen that although it's a drawback with the higher gas prices, it impacts visitation Park Service wide but what I've noticed is it more and more in the last couple years we've seen more and more local people because they're looking for things in their own backyard, things that don't take--

Hannah: Get out there and do it, yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

Hannah: Well and the to go see the ruts that's I mean that's free, today is free, so sure yeah check it out.

Ben: That's what's wonderful about having a fee free site is--

Hannah: Yeah, definitely nowadays.

Ben: We'll get people coming in they're like, how much do I have to pay? And it's like absolutely nothing.

Hannah: You could visit the gift shop if you want to spend a little money and get a souvenir, but yeah that's pretty neat.

Carter: I think we've honestly been pretty fortunate to get so many locals in. I think a big thing with that you have like Kansas Kids Fitness Day. So we get a lot of third graders in and I helped out with some third graders this year. And I was able to give them a talk because they were talking about the fort for a while, so they came out and they're like, oh my gosh it's Carter look he's even dressed too. So I'm out there holding a camera dressed as a soldier. I guess a bunch of them had like gone home and told their families about it and it was unfortunate because it was all in days that I was off, but they came in with their family and came and came through the fort. I know one of them did a Junior Ranger program cuz he told me about it. So it's really cool that being able to get to the kids and get them interested in stuff like this and then that kind of gets the whole family drawn in.

Hannah: Well and the Fort Larned-- The Old Guard has a program where they'll reimburse schools that bring their kids, and if they attend they'll reimburse their gas. So that's pretty neat.

Ben: Yeah, working with school groups it's fun to see the passion in in some of the kids. Usually there's one or two kids that you almost have to say hold your questions till later we'll-- I love answering questions but sometimes you get you-- like we got a schedule to keep. So obviously your oldest doing stuff out here brought you out. Do you think you'd be coming out regardless?

Hannah: She asked me if I would I would be part of the kitchen staff and at the moment in the heat, no. But if in the winter, I think that'd be kind of fun, it's been a lot of-- it's been eye opening to walk through and see some of the buildings but have you guys in here definitely gives it a new perspective. So maybe. I'm better behind the scenes I don't like a lot of attention, so. I'll take pictures and stuff.

Ben: Now from a visitor's perspective as someone who's grown up in the area and right down the road, what does a resource like Fort Larned mean to you?

Hannah: So I also do a little bit of a genealogy, that's-- it's also helped because a lot of our ancestors are from the area. One of our-- one of the founding fathers from Pawnnee Rock is great great grandfather. Great great great grandfather, whatever it is. But yes, so we are tied to the area, so to come out and look at the Fort and know some of my ancestors were involved is pretty neat and it's nice to have that tie to the community. Especially something as cool as this.

Ben: And to know that they saw these--

Hannah: Yeah it's--

Ben: These buildings and all that.

Hannah: Possibly a soldier and--

Ben: Well we thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective and thank you for your work that you do behind the scenes for the Fort and hope to see you out here more and more.

Hannah: Sure, sounds good.

[Whoosh]

Ben: And here we have Isaac and Mary from Kansas. And they're visiting for our Labor Day weekend and Isaac is working on his Junior Ranger book right now. How are you guys doing today?

Mary: Great, thank you.

Isaac: Good!

Ben: How's the Junior Ranger program coming along?

Isaac: Pretty good, but I still haven't finished the entire book yet, so.

Ben: Working on it.

Isaac: I have some work to do.

Ben: Nice. Have you done any other Junior Ranger programs?

Isaac: 23, 24.

Ben: Nice!

Carter: Whoa! That's a lot more than I have.

Ben: So in taking a look at Fort Larned, hearing from both of you, especially as you're looking through the Junior Ranger program, what are your thoughts on Fort Larned? What do you-- what did you think when you first got here and what do you think after you explored a little bit?

Isaac: Well I didn't think too much about it, I just thought oh it was going to be like some buildings with beds and blasters in it but when I got here I found it was much more.

Ben: Yeah.

Carter: I like the sound of that.

Mary: I'm impressed with overall the historical accuracy and how the buildings and the rooms are set up to really see what it would have looked like in the period that the Fort was active and operating.

Isaac: Me too.

Ben: The goal that we have is to sort of represent what the Fort looked like as if the Army just left and just left everything here. Of course, over the years with it becoming a ranch and things like that, things changed so we had to bring it back to what it looks like today. But yeah, being able to represent what looked like when the Army was here is really our goal. So, what has been your favorite part of the Junior Ranger program so far?

Isaac: I liked the one where you have where you have the word key that you need to solve.

Ben: That is fun. It's got a got a little story with it too, right? Now have you guys been here before is this your first time here?

Isaac: For me this is my first time.

Mary: Same.

Ben: So what motivated you to come this weekend and check this out?

Isaac: Well my school has a 3-day weekend so we have plenty of time to get to lots of different places and the fact that we as a family love coming to National Parks and historic sites and places like that.

Mary: Yeah, we're national parks travelers. Over a 3-day weekend we realized we haven't really done the Kansas, the local parks. We've done Tall Grass Prairie but we haven't done the historic sites and so we just wanted to take a weekend and kind of tour the Western Kansas sites. Spend some time as a family together on the long weekend.

Ben: Yeah, and you picked a fantastic weekend to do it with all the events and living historians that we have here and--

Isaac: I even have the Junior Ranger National Park Geek patch.

Ben: Oh coo, that's awesome!

Mary: And we got to see the artillery being let off and we got to hear about women on the-- in the fort and so we did, we got to see a lot of cool stuff today.

Ben: Glad you're taking advantage of our programs and--

Carter: With how much you guys have learned today, do you think you'll come back out here again?

Isaac: Yes.

Mary: Yeah.

Isaac: Very much, yes.

Carter: I like the sound of that.

Mary: I think we'd like to come out with his grandparents. His grandfather is retired from the Army and I think he would really enjoy it.

Carter: We hope to see you guys back out here again sometime.

Mary: Thank you.

Ben: Yeah. Do you have any questions for us?

Isaac: How long have you been making podcasts?

Ben: So this is actually our first season of the podcast. We have one episode out right now but we're working on season 1 which is going to focus on Fort Larned's past, present, and future and we're going to have two episodes each for each little tidbit. So we'll have two episodes on the past, two episodes on the present, and two episodes on the future. And then this episode that we're recording now is a bonus episode, sort of bringing that all together and getting the visitors and volunteers perspective. We've heard from a couple of our volunteers today now a couple of our visitors and some others that that work behind the scenes to help the fort too, so. We're looking to tell a more complete story of the fort and we're hoping that through the podcast that we can do that. So this is a little bit of a new adventure for us but we're hoping we can continue this and we're hoping this will air March of 2024. So it'll be the last episode of the season.

Mary: I had a question for you since you're a Ranger. I know that, you know, our understanding is as a Ranger you can make choices about where you go and why you want to be a Ranger at a specific site, so what made you choose this site.

Ben: So it was a bit of chance. So I've always wanted to work for the Park Service and the advice that was given to me early on was take the first permanent position that's offered to you because you don't know when the next one's going to come. And it just so happened that this is the first permanent position offered to me. So I accepted it and that was in 2019 so I've been here ever since. Fell in love with the story with the people here and everything that we have in this amazing resource. And so it was by-- it wasn't I want to go to Fort Larned, but I want to work for the Park Service and then once I got here I really fell in love with everything here. Well thank you for coming in today thank you for doing the Junior Ranger program and thank you for adding your two cents to the perspective here and we hope to see you back here again.

Mary: Thank you for inviting us to be on your podcast.

Ben: Certainly.

Isaac: Thank you.

[Whoosh]

Carter: Alright, we want to say thank you for listening to this episode today to all of our listeners and supporters it was a really, really good episode today.

Ben: It was, I really enjoyed it. Now be sure to check out our social media. We are on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, also be sure to check out our website we have a lot of great resources for you on there as well.

Carter: And if you already follow us or if you are just now following us, make sure to also give a follow to Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve.

Ben: Another one of the National Parks in Kansas. They have some great content and they have some great-- they're a National Preserve but they're also a historic site as well. But we want to thank you again for taking a listen to this episode and we hope you have a great day.

Carter: And we'll see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Host: Ranger Ben Long Co-Host: Intern Carter Atteberry Description: As the culmination of Season 1 where we looked at Fort Larned's Past, Present, and Future, in this episode, we hear from a few volunteers and visitors to get their perspective on Fort Larned, how it tells the story of the past, how it's preserved today, and how we hope to keep in around for generations to come.

February 3, 2024

6. Fort Larned's Future (Part 2)

Transcript

Transcript

[Footsteps Intro Music Plays]

Ranger Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. I'm your host Ranger Ben and in this season we are taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today is the finale where we're looking at part two of Fort Larned's future. Co-hosting with me today is our volunteer Emma. How's it going today?

Emma Thompson: It's going good.

Ben: Now as we kick this off why don't you to tell us a little bit about yourself, what got you involved with the fort, and what you've been doing since you've started volunteering here?

Emma: Alright, well my name is Emma and I'm a senior at Larned High School. I've lived here for about 11 years now, it's actually my second time living here. And I remember coming out to the fort as a-- like a little girl like either with my parents or through the school and I remember just-- I loved being out here kind of being away from like the town and social media and I-- it's kind of weird but I love the smell of the bridge. Like it's just so nostalgic and I just fell in love with it so when I got into High School, in my sophomore year I joined FCCLA and then they had like this volunteer opportunity to come out to the fort for the Candlelight Tour and I was like oh this is really cool I haven't been out there in years and I think it just be a great opportunity and I I'm a big fan of History I love learning. So I came out here it was a little rough cuz it was my first time but I really loved it and then so I came back my junior year, the following year to volunteer again for the Candlelight Tour and then that same year I was inducted into National Honor Society and I was like oh man I really got to get these 50 hours. So I was like well what can I do and I thought about it and then I saw a post where you were looking for volunteers. So it's like okay this is a great opportunity because I love history and I'm also going to get my hours in so it's a win-win situation. So I got in contact with you around December, January and then I came out here pretty consistently for a while doing a little bit of living history, kind of learning about the fort's background and its story, but also working on the social media posts. Summer of my Junior year, I kind of dropped off the face of the Earth. Just got so busy and then this year has been very hectic and I miss coming out here.

Ben: As we get into this episode our interview today is with our friends group the Fort Larned Old Guard's Chair Kristin Keith. It was a really fun interview learning about the Old Guard, their plans for the future, and also ways that they've helped us out. We've touched on it in previous episodes but hearing more about the Village Site and their plans for the future and hopefully giving it to the National Park Service, that was probably one of my favorite parts of the episode.

Emma: It was great to learn, I learned a lot of things. Yeah cuz I never heard of it before and then she started talking about I was like oh like I really didn't know that that's really cool.

Ben: And for it to be such an integral part of our nation's history too and it's right in our backyard.

Emma: Yeah!

Ben: Well we enjoyed interviewing Kristin and we also hope you enjoy taking a listen, so here you go.

[Whoosh]

Ben: So welcome Kristin, how's it going today?

Kristin Keith: I'm great, thanks for having me.

Ben: Great to have you on. You are unique in that you are the first non-National Park Service employee to be a guest on this podcast.

Kristin: Well thanks for having me and I guess I'm okay with being classified as unique.

Ben: So as you know this season we're looking at Fort Larned's past, present, and future and today we're wrapping up Fort Larned's future. But as we get into that why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself what drew you to get involved at the Fort and sort a little bit about your story.

Kristin: Sure! I'm Kristin Keith, I grew up here in Larned, I've been married for 32 years for a guy I met in fifth grade. We had our first official date at a Junior High, cuz back then it was called Junior High you know not Middle School, a Junior High dance and the rest is history I guess that was 32 years. His name is Joel, he works for Innovative Livestock Services. We have three kids. Joelle who's a nurse practitioner, her significant other works for the sheriff's department. Joelle has a son, Ridge, who is not spoiled at all of course since he's the only grandchild. And then my middle son is Brady, he is an English teacher and a head football coach at the High School here in Larned, his wife Lindsey works in the social media marketing business. My youngest Colby is a free spirit, he works in Canada half the year as a hunting guide and then has his own taxidermy business here in Kansas and his wife Dava is a librarian. So that's my family like I said I grew up here in Larned. When I was in high school I was one of those kids that loved history but didn't really tell anybody about that. When the history teacher would give extra credit I would of course silently do all of the extra credit, not because I needed the points, but because I thought it was really fun. But I didn't tell anybody but I also loved literature and writing so when I went to college that's what I studied, I studied English literature. Went to Wichita State for two years and then transferred to Southwestern College which is a private college in Winfield. Which I really enjoyed that. After college I taught for several years first at Cowley County Community College then moved back here to Larned, taught at Larned High School and Barton County for a few years. And then I decided to change careers, which was more in line with the history side of my interest. So I got into the antique business, started doing antique shows which then that became the estate sale business which I'm currently doing now. When I did switch careers I started going to lots of auctions of course to pick up items to sell at antique shows, and I met a guy named George Elmore at the auction. And we would visit and after a while he picked up on my interest in history and said hey you should come volunteer at the Fort. Well at that time our boys were very heavily involved in sports and so we traveled a lot and all our weekends were spent you know at the baseball field or basketball court or football field, so it just didn't work out then. But once everybody was out of the house, I came out filled out the paperwork, my first experience as a volunteer was over a Memorial Day weekend. There was a ranger here at that time Ellen Jones. She said I think you should try some living history as an officer's wife on officer's row. And I thought well sure you know I'll do anything. So she dressed me out and put me in a building and said and it's best if you can do this first person and I thought oh you know I'd never had any experience I was never in drama or anything like that in high school or college. So I said okay I'll give it a shot and she briefly told me a story about the home that I was in which happened to belong to Captain Nicholas Nolan and just kind of threw me in the deep end and I absolutely fell in love with it. The solitude and the landscape out here, the people, not only the staff but the other volunteers and then of course the visitors. Which is absolutely amazing, you meet people not only from all over the state but all over the country and even the world. So it's such a neat experience and then of course fell in love with all the clothes. But most importantly I fell in love with Nicholas Nolan's story and his wife's story out here it's an amazing story. So that's how I got involved and then it's just grown from there.

Ben: So how long ago was that that you started?

Kristin: Oh, seven, eight years ago maybe.

Ben: So that obviously evolved into getting involved with Old Guard and the reason that we chose you to speak on today's podcast-- or to be a guest on today's podcast is because you're the current Chair of the Old Guard. So I you to tell us a little bit about the Fort Learned Old Guard and about your involvement in-- I guess your evolution of your involvement over the years.

Kristin: It was a very quick evolution. Several years ago, they were looking for another board member and George talked to me about it and I agreed. I had never really heard anything about the Old Guard, so I thought wow this is a really great organization it's just another step and how I can help out here. So I joined the board and then somehow very quickly I ended up as Chair. I don't know how that happened or what they were thinking, but I really, I really enjoy the organization. It's a great organization.

Emma: So I guess I've never really heard of it until a couple of years ago, so I don't really know exactly what it does, could you elaborate on that?

Kristin: Of course. So most National Parks have what's called a friends group and the Fort Larned Old Guard is the friends group here for Fort Larned. We are a 501c3 which is a nonprofit organization and friends groups kind of help with what-- things that are out of the scope of what the park can do for itself. So our mission is to help preserve, restore, and interpret the cultural and historical resources out here, so we just kind of help fill in the gaps. We've bought artifacts, we help with some programs, and things like that. So the artifacts that we have purchased, we purchased a sword that belonged to Frank Baldwin, we purchased the 3rd Infantry rifle, a Colt revolver that belonged to Nicholas Nolan, that was about a year and a half ago. And when we came across that you know I got super excited because I'm so into his story and it was like I'd come across it-- well I didn't come across it but George I think had found it through a mutual friend but it felt like you know my family heirloom was coming back home here to Fort Larned when we got that. We've also purchased a Rucker Ambulance and had that restored and then there were a couple of Native American litho prints that we had had commission to sell. So those are the main things that we've done out here.

Ben: When Nolan's revolver came up and that sort of came across I was-- I remember talking with George about that and I was like this is this is cool that I mean it's out there that we have this this piece of Nolan's history that's there and the next correspondence I got from George was the Old Guard's getting it for us. That was awesome.

Kristin: Absolutely, it was super exciting.

Ben: Now all those things you listed so the rifle, the revolver, the sword, and the ambulance people can see when they come here.

Kristin: Yes.

Ben: So we've got actually Frank Baldwin's sword and Nolan's revolver in the same case in our museum and then the 3rd Infantry rifle just few steps away from that and then the ambulance sort of hangs out in our Shops building at the moment.

Kristin: Yeah and so we're always looking for things with provenance or a story that's somehow connected to Fort Larned whether it be an object that was here, something that belonged to a soldier that was here. So we're always looking for things, so if any of the listeners ever come across anything let us know.

Emma: Well how do you come across these things? Is there like a like a marketplace for it or just through people?

Kristin: Through people, word of mouth. I mean I'm always looking on eBay you know to see if I would just happen to see something but word of mouth. With reenactors just people who are excited about history and the story out here.

Ben: So it's not just artifacts and things like that that the Old Guard provides, you also help support us for events and things like that. Can you explain a little bit about the Old Guard's involvement with not only Mess and Muster our sort of cooperative event, but how you support other events as well?

Kristin: Sure. So our-- I think everyone's favorite event that we're involved in out here is Mess and Muster which is a yearly membership meeting with programs centered around a certain theme. And it's always the last-- most of the time it's the last Saturday of April. So the day starts off with a board meeting of course we have to get, you know, business out of the way but then the rest of the day is filled with programs and demonstrations. And then in the evening, there's a meal, a general meeting, and then we have a main speaker that comes in or a program. This year our Mess and Muster will center around the Cheyenne-Lakota Village site, so I think it's going to be a great day focusing on a subject we haven't talked about in a while.

Ben: I'm definitely looking forward to that and we've talked about the village site on both the episode with George and with our Superintendent Kevin Eads, so for those listening if you haven't checked those out definitely check those episodes out as well. Can you talk a little bit about the Village site and the Old Guard's involvement in that and hopefully getting it to National Historic Landmark status?

Kristin: Sure. So the short story-- it's a long story, but the short story is there were some Plains Indians, Cheyenne Lakota, that were camped at a site about 30 miles from Fort Larned and a group of businessmen and newspaper men who thought they might profit from Indian Wars started a rumor that there was going to be an uprising. So among others General Hancock was sent out here with 1,400 men to talk with them and to ensure that nothing like that happened. Well the Plains Indians that were out here and living at that site many of them were survivors of Sand Creek, so they weren't very trusting of course of the military. Some did meet with Hancock but there was a lot of delay tactics being used in order for the inhabitants of that village to escape. Which is what happened, which of course angered Hancock and he ordered that the village be burned, so he burned the village. Which just created all kinds of chaos and basically caused a war that never would have occurred had he not burned that village and misunderstood what was going on. We feel that it's one of the most important Native American sites in Kansas if not the most important site because of what happened afterwards. It was just you know the mistrust of Native Americans even more of the military which just, you know, led to more wars with Indians, so. George Elmore actually pinpointed the site and discovered where it was after a lot of research and that was in 1976. Since then, the Old Guard has taken ownership of it and we've been caring for it. We've put in a parking lot and signage and that kind of thing in hopes of someday that it will transfer to the National Park Service. And that's where we are now, we've just started the process and it's a long, long drawn out process. But you have to have permission from the National Park Service to nominate it as a landmark, and we've sent that letter so that's where we are and we're just in the very beginning of it. And that letter was sent in March of '23 and we haven't heard back yet, but we're hopeful that we will hear back soon so that process can continue. And Kevin Eads has been very helpful with us and also Leo Oliva of course with that process so we're excited about what the future holds out there.

Ben: Yeah, I definitely am too. It's exciting.

Emma: Do you know of any other village sites around Kansas that are trying to do the same thing -- make it into a an actual Park site?

Kristin: There are other landmarks, historic landmarks yes. But again, we feel like we have the best one. We have the one that has the most relevant history to what happened after 1867.

Ben: Yeah, and that was one thing that George mentioned too is Hancock's War, his campaign there in the Spring of 1867 really set the tone for the rest of the Indian Wars the rest of the US Government's handling of the Plains and the Plains States and the Plains Indians who were here already. And it formulated in Custer's mind how the Plains Indian should be handled as well which may have worked against him in the end.

Kristin: Right. Didn't yeah-- he didn't fare well in the end. But yes, he was here during that time also.

Ben: So one thing that I'm sort of curious about, we've been talking about sort of your personal background what's gotten you interested in the fort and all that and a little bit about your role in the Old Guard but for someone who hasn't had experience being a chair of a nonprofit, how would you explain what you do specifically in the Old Guard?

Kristin: Well what we're working on right now and Celeste Dixon, Ranger Dixon is helping me with this is, we're creating a website. We've had a website in the past, we're just updating it so that it's mobile friendly. Kind of bringing us up to date and into the future. So we're currently working on that. We hold two board meetings a year, I'm always looking for projects you know that we might help the fort with, looking for objects, looking for programs, in discussion with you and Kevin and George and other staff members out here. I've spoken to civic groups in town about the Fort of course and our organization, I've done some programs at the library. Just trying to get the word out that there is a friends group out here, that there's always new things going on at the Fort, changes especially when the new museum came in, that if someone hasn't been out you know in 3 months or 6 months or 6 years, it doesn't matter there's always something new and changing out here. Just trying to keep people interested in the story out here so that they can share it with others and the visitation increases. We also have social media page that I help coordinate things on there. So those are the main things.

Ben: In your time of being Chair of the Old Guard is there anything that you learned or has it been enjoyable experience?

Kristin: Oh my goodness, I learn something every day. I would say, you know, I haven't been around very long as a volunteer so my knowledge is limited but it's growing. I-- that's how I like to say. I love that there's resources like George Elmore and Leo Oliva. Just a wealth of knowledge, you know, anytime I have a question those are my go-to people. I learn something all of the time.

Ben: I mentioned that on the episode with Kevin is, I've been here just about every day for the last 4 years-- 4 and a half now, but I'm always learning something every day there's so much to learn here.

Kristin: Sure. I really enjoy like the organizing side of it and the planning side of events, so that's kind of what I feel like my gifts are. The bonus is just learning the history and the stories that's just a definite bonus to it.

Emma: What does the Fort Larned Old Guard hope to teach the younger generation or what would you like to do in the future?

Kristin: So another one of our projects is in conjunction with the Fort, we secure a grant through Open Outdoors for Kids and Celeste Dixon helps us write that grant which provides transportation or bus money for different schools to come here. It is a great program as you know schools are on limited budgets and a lot of them wouldn't be able to take field trips because of the cost of fuel. So we provide that money in order for schools to come out here. I think on average, Ben can help me with this, maybe 20 to 25 schools come a year does that sound?

Ben: That sounds about right, yeah.

Kristin: Right, so our grant money is anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 a year. It actually decreased this year to $5,000 which is actually a good thing, that means that more organizations are applying for that money, so there's more kids who are able to attend a variety of parks. So it's a great thing, it's a great program, it's through the National Park Foundation. The best part of it for me is that I get to help with the school tours out here. It's one of my very favorite things to do. Kids ask the best questions they keep you on your toes. They always ask-- there's always different questions that get asked and then of course some of them ask the same questions every single time. But the schools that come here, they've-- most of them have prepared their kids with a backstory or whatever they're studying in social studies or history so they know a little bit about it. It's just fun though to expose them to see the Fort is so well preserved, it's just an experience that they wouldn't be able to have of course through a textbook or video. But to see the Fort and walk through the buildings and see the objects, and hear the story, it's an amazing experience for them and I'm glad that the Old Guard can help support that.

Emma: Personally when I was younger and in elementary school middle school and we would come out here and I think that's what really made me fall in love with this place at such an early age was being out here with all my classmates and learning and walking through all the buildings.

Kristin: Yes, and when I when I start tours with them I always start by explaining what living history is and that's what I do sometimes and I always make sure that they know that there's special events that go on out here. So, hey if you like this place you know tell your parents about it and have them bring you back for an event and if you're interested you know you can become a volunteer and they get so excited, you know, about the prospect of that because that's also one of the Old Guards goals is to get more young people involved because you know our membership is aging of course like any organization and we've got to bring in not only younger members with our organization but younger volunteers out here because, you know, volunteers out here are aging also and so it's great. Ben's been tremendous asset in bringing new younger volunteers out so it's good that we can all work together towards that same goal.

Ben: If you were able to snap your fingers and make the involvement, mainly volunteers in the Old Guard and the Fort, what would that look like?

Kristin: I would just love to see them number of volunteers that are available to come out here double. It's such an amazing experience for people when they come out on a special event like Memorial Day. When you can feel like you have stepped back in time and see what life was really like when the buildings are staffed with women over on Officers' Row and men in the Barracks and men out on the Parade Ground, you go into the hospital and there a Steward and a Surgeon and maybe a Matron and, you know, then you go over to the Shops building and there's a baker you know making bread and somebody in the Wood Shop and Pete Bethke or, you know, a volunteer working in the Blacksmith Shop. The fort really comes to life, and I mean that's the whole idea for people when they come out on special events is to experience that and feel like you've stepped back in time and can feel and smell and see what life was like back then. So you know if we can help encourage people to become volunteers by just making sure people are comfortable. You know, you don't have to have a vast knowledge of the story here, there are so many different people who can tell you whatever it is you want to know or need to know and you can just learn a little bit at a time. So you don't have to have experience you don't have to have the clothes. There's a closet full of clothes out here especially for women and soldiers so that's provided. And if you don't, you know, living history isn't your thing, there's lots of other volunteer opportunities with maintenance and working in the museum, in the visitor center, there's something for everyone to get involved. You know, if you want to start out with living history but you're nervous my advice would be to help with Candlelight-- the Candlelight Tour which happens I think it's the second Saturday in October every year. Because it's dark and no one knows who you are, they just hear voices you know. And if you don't want to speak you don't have to you get to experience it. My husband, who I've convinced to volunteer out here, his first experience was with Candlelight. And maybe I shouldn't tell this story but I'm going to go ahead and tell this story. But he was very adamant that he not have a speaking part and George said oh that's fine you know we'll just put you over in the barracks and you can play cards or checkers you know as they would have done in the evening. And about 30 minutes before start time one of the main characters over in the hospital we found out he was unable to come and I didn't know all this cuz I was in a different scene than Joel and I was preparing my scene but George says hey we need someone to play this part of an injured teamster with a broken leg and he walked into the barracks and it was Joel and I think some Boy Scouts volunteering maybe some high school kids. Their heads dropped down of course so Joel's like okay. So he went over there and stepped way out of his comfort zone and really played the part well, I hear. Which I didn't know any of this was going on and then afterwards I kept hearing oh my gosh that guy was so funny with the broken leg and then I figured out it was Joel, I absolutely could not believe it. So the point of this story is you don't know what you're capable of or what you might end up really enjoy doing until you know you give it a shot. But that doesn't happen very often you know if you want to sit and play cards and the barracks for Candlelight you know that's always an option. But it-- that's a great place to start is that event.

Ben: It is. Yeah, I remember the first time I met Joel at my first candle light tour in 2019. He was a cook over in the Barracks. The real life soldier that I was playing was not a model soldier at all, refusing orders and creating ruckus and things like that and I felt bad half the time yelling at him and I think at the beginning of it I just sort of went up to him and like just you know this is who I'm playing I'm not like this I swear. But yeah no it's always fun at Candlelight and it's fun to make the Fort come to life in that unique way and that is really a unique event for us.

Kristin: And I also want to emphasize that the people that you get to meet at those events have so many fun stories and are so interesting. You know, we all have a common interest in history of course but people, you know, have all different backgrounds and from-- come in from different states and areas in the country and it's-- I've met the most amazing people doing this. So that's just another bonus to being out here is getting to know people who've become like family, you know, who are, you know, a little nerdy like me and enjoy that. You know, we all have a safe zone out here where we can be ourselves and it's really fun.

Emma: To volunteer out here I know you came out here with no experience. Do you think that was easier or do you think it would be easier if people came in with experience?

Kristin: I don't think it matters, cuz I think there's a place for every everyone. You know, Ben is very good at helping the men that come out here or you know the high school volunteers find a place where they fit. And I think that's true of any women that want to volunteer. You know, if you're not comfortable being an officer's wife you can be a laundress, I mean there's a new volunteer Liz that-- she's just found her place and she's over in the schoolhouse. So I think that you just, whatever you're interested in, you'll find your niche here with what you're comfortable doing.

Ben: Yeah and that's what-- whenever I have any ladies that might be interested in getting started or anything like that, no matter what role they're sort of aiming towards, I always try to find someone-- and usually it's you that they can sort of hang around and get an idea of what talking to the visitors looks like and some of the stories and how to answer some of the questions. Because on officers row you really are some of the first people that our visitors see even before they get to the Visitor Center and so they still have some of those basic questions that they want answered before they get to the Visitor Center and before they get to see the rest of the programs and things like that that we might have going on.

Kristin: Right, there's so many mentors that are available to help you and bounce ideas off of, ask questions. There's all kinds of people.

Ben: Now we've talked a little bit about the Old Guard's vision for attaining new artifacts and the goal with the village site, is there anything else in the future that you and the Old Guard have your sight set on?

Kristin: I'll just speak for myself. My dream project would be to rebuild the Cavalry Stables which is a very lofty goal I know. And I'm sorry Chappie if you're going to be hearing that cuz I know you made a comment about that in your episode. But I've also visited a little bit with Celeste about the project that you two are currently working on with the visual of the Laundress Quarters and the stables and I think that's definitely something that the Old Guard could help with when that project gets going. So I'm excited about that, you know, what we could do to help make that happen.

Ben: Yeah we might not have the physical Laundress Quarters in the window to the past or we might not have the physical Cavalry Stables in the augmented reality but at least we'll have it represented almost in real time.

Kristin: Right, so people can at least get a sense of what it looked like.

Ben: And if you want to see a physical structure of what our tables looked like, Fort Scott, their Dragoon Stables there have the exact blueprint as the Cavalry Stables would have had here. We just need to copy and paste.

Kristin: Yeah.

Emma: I guess a good question for anyone wanting to become a volunteer is like who do they need to talk to and what would their roles be at the Fort?

Kristin: So you'll need to come out to the Fort and get a volunteer packet -- just some paperwork to fill out that shows you're interested. And then visit with George or Celeste or Ben, any of those people can get you started and help you figure out what it is maybe that you want to do. I also want to mention that Ben is trying to put a band together so if for any musicians listening that's also another opportunity that would be really fun and it'll be a great addition to what's going on out here. So I think that's the place to start is just come out, look around talk to people, and then fill out that paperwork.

Ben: And don't be scared it's literally two pages of paperwork. We don't give you like a two inch stack of paperwork.

Kristin: No, correct.

Ben: So I guess as we wrap up, one question we've been asking each of our guests is how can our listeners, whether they're local or whether they're not, how can listeners help with your role here at the Fort and your role in the Old Guard.

Kristin: The main thing is just come out and visit the park often. If you're unable to do that, follow the social media pages, Ben does a great job with the Fort's page. Follow the Old Guard page, we would love to have people become a member of the Old Guard. Financial support is huge because that's what allows us to do the projects that we're involved in and find those artifacts to bring out here and there's a range of membership fees anywhere from $35 on up -- there are lifetime memberships available. Another thing that I would really like to see for the Old Guard is to find someone who has experience and knowledge or even willing to learn how to do grant writing, I think that would be huge for our organization and would open up a lot of doors and opportunities for what we would be able to do out here at Fort Larned. Tell your friends, tell your neighbors, when you visit the fort or if you see something going on encourage others to come out here. Let your local schools know that there are funds available for them to bring their students out here to experience it firsthand and we can help arrange that. That's what I would say just spread the word that Fort Larned is here and it has an amazing story that we want to continue to share.

Ben: Well with that, thank you very much for coming on and telling a little bit about yourself, the Old Guard, and the plans for the future.

Kristin: Thank you, thanks for having me, I've enjoyed it.

Ben: Have a good one.

Kristin: You too.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright well thank you for taking a listen and thank you for listening to this finale of our season we do have a bonus episode coming up the first Saturday of March so if you're listening to this before then, make sure you take a listen to that one in the future. Thank you again for taking a listen if you don't already follow us on social media we are on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, also check out our website we have some great resources for you there.

Emma: You should also support the Fort Larned Old Guard's website and Facebook page.

Ben: Yeah, they have some wonderful content on there not just stuff that we post on our own social media but they got some unique stuff going on too that you want to make sure you keep up on. Make sure you leave us a rating and review if you enjoy taking a listen be sure to share it with your friends and family.

Emma: And we will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

[Footsteps Outro Music Plays]

Host: Ranger Ben Long Co-host: Volunteer Emma Thompson Guest: Friends Group Chair, Kristin Keith Description: As the Chair of the Fort’s Friends Group: the Fort Larned Old Guard, Kristin Keith helps lead the Old Guard to fill in some gaps in funding, projects, and acquisitions that the park is unable to fulfill on its own. Join us as we discuss the plans for the Village site, Fort Larned’s future, and the Old Guard’s role in it all.

January 6, 2024

5. Fort Larned's Future (Part 1)

Transcript

Transcript

[Footsteps intro music plays]

Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast, I'm your host Ranger Ben and this season we are taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today is part one on Fort Larned's future. Today I'm joined by our volunteer Canvas Lovesee. How's it going today?

Canvas Lovesee: It's going pretty good. How are you?

Ben: Doing well. Now as we get started why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, what drew you to volunteer at Fort Larned, how long you've been doing it.

Canvas: My name's Canvas, obviously. Grown up in Kansas around this area my whole life. Started volunteering at Fort Larned through a high school fax club that comes out every year for our October event: Candlelight Tour. Really started becoming a primary volunteer last October of 2022. I mean really just the history, the people out here keep coming me back I've always learned something every single time out here. So, just learning and being able to represent something from history and help preserve it is really something that I've tried to strive for especially moving forward in my life. That's something I want to do so I mean coming out to the fort is going to help me with that as well and help push me towards a career in the National Parks or towards conservation. So, looking forward to it.

Ben: Absolutely and not only like you said that you learn something new every time you come out here but especially as you've taken a dive into learning about the Hospital Stewards, which we talk about a little bit on the episode, my interpretation of the Hospital has expanded quite a bit, just from learning from you. So that's been awesome.

Canvas: Well you're welcome.

Ben: Thank you! So yeah as we get into the episode one of my favorite parts as with all of our guests this season was just taking a dive into what it takes to do the jobs around here. Today's guest is our Superintendent Kevin Eads. He's been here for about a year and a half now. And so taking a look at his job how he has to look to the future and sort of forward management as he says, that was really cool and that's a big part of what I enjoyed about this episode.

Canvas: I mean definitely that and hearing about how the employees of the park are really what make a park, a park. I mean obviously everything there the historical aspects, the things that make it a national treasure, definitely what make it the actual park but what brings it to life and helps people understand it truly brings people crawling back is definitely the employees. So hearing that too and we definitely dive into that a lot in this episode, so.

Ben: Yeah it was a fun episode, it was a great interview and we hope you enjoy taking a listen.

[Whoosh]

Ben: So welcome Kevin.

Kevin: Good morning.

Ben: How's it going?

Kevin: Good, going good.

Ben: Alright, so as we kick it off as we have with our other guests this season, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your name title, and what other parks you might have worked at.

Kevin: Okay, you bet. So Kevin Eads, I'm the superintendent here at the park and I've been with the National Park Service for right at 33 years. I've been here, it's been a year and a half. Some of the other parks that I worked at has been George Washington Carver National Monument, George Washington's Birthplace, Arkansas Post National Memorial, Pea Ridge National military Park, and then I did a stent at Badlands.

Canvas: More experience than I have, just by a little!

Ben: That's for sure! Yeah so I don't you tell us a little bit about what got you into the Park Service originally and some of your highlights along your journey.

Kevin: You bet! So I first-- I grew up on a farm and didn't know really anything about the Park Service and when I was getting my undergrad there towards the end of that degree, there was a job fair. Several of my friends had gone and they were telling me about it, and there were some job openings. And initially I went they had the Core of Engineers, the US Fish and Wildlife, and the National Park Service. Well I knew about the Core of Engineers and I knew about the Fish and Wildlife. And so we went and all other jobs had already been filled. The National Park Service had a couple of jobs left there and so me and another gentleman went and visited with them and signed up and that's how I got started with the Park Service. So and started off at Carver.

Ben: So you sort of stumbled into it almost.

Kevin: I did, I did. I'm glad I did. You know, 33 years later looking back, it was one of the best decisions that I've made. So, really enjoy the Park Service, the staff.

Ben: So you kind of stumbled into the Park Service in a way, obviously there's something that's kept you here, like you sort of touched on is that the staff or is there is there more to it? What has sort of kept you in the in the National Park Service?

Kevin: Again my background, grew up on a farm my degrees are in Biology: Wildlife Biology, Forest Resources. So the parks that I went to you know it was a new world whether it was at Carver, George Washington's Birthplace, Arkansas Post, each one had their own unique resources whether that was natural resources, cultural resources. But you know along the way, meeting the people and being able to work with and learn from them was the most satisfying. And that's kind of what kept me in. I had people all along the way that took me under their wing, they mentored me I learned from them and it's been a wonderful experience.

Ben: Yeah and that was something that we sort of touched on in the last episode with Tyler our Carpenter and our Volunteer Lynn mentioned that she sort of realized that the National Park Service is not this-- not only this great place for these great resources, be that cultural or natural, but it's also this gathering place of historic techniques and I'm guessing in that scientific techniques as well. And all these different things that you might not necessarily find elsewhere but then you can learn from while you're working in the Park Service, so.

Kevin: Absolutely, yeah.

Ben: That's really cool. So have you had in your time going through these different parks, I know it's tough to find one of your I guess favorites or highlight park but would you say you have one?

Kevin: I love being here, I love this park. Just as I loved each of the other parks, each one is unique -- that's why they're a National Park. You know with them being unique in their own right and then at the time of life that I was at each one of those parks, each one of them special. They're all my favorite park.

Ben: Now when visitors come in and ask me if I have a favorite park that I've worked at, I give pretty much a similar answer that. Each one has its own gem that you start to appreciate after working there for even for a few months. As we sort of continue in to the episode, into your work here what sort of drew you to the position here and what is been your highlight since you've started working here for a year and a half now?

Kevin: I've always kept an eye on Fort Larned. Part of the reason it's closer to where I grew up. Right out of college, got married the same day we graduated and then shortly thereafter we went to Virginia. It's been a journey the whole way. With Fort Larned, with Kansas itself I really enjoy the landscape, the history that's here. Growing up when I did, you know you see all the western movies. And so I think that was ingrained from birth pretty much. And getting to work in an area that has the history that Fort Larned does as well as the natural resources is this what first drew here. It's one of the things that I really like about the park about the area. The other thing that I really like about this area is the people -- very friendly, they help you out, they visit with you. I mean it's that's a wonderful component.

Ben: Now when I initially asked again going back to Tyler, I had asked him when he came back under his project funding initially, I asked him what drew him back to Fort Larned, he said the people. Yeah we have a very friendly work group here and not only that, the community too.

Kevin: Yes.

Ben: Very welcoming.

Canvas: Very small town community like everyone's willing to help everyone so, definitely a good thing.

Kevin: Yeah. The other thing I like about this area is the amount of dirt roads you can drive and not have to cross pavement for a very long time if you want to.

Canvas: Or you'll come cross pavement way quicker than you think you are going to.

Kevin: Well yeah that too. Or you end up in a field where the road just dead ends.

Canvas: Is there any park in particular that if you would want to work at you would prefer to like work at there. Not really prefer but is there a park in general that if you could get the chance to work at, you would take it.

Kevin: You know, being able to work here like I said it's, I've kept my on Fort Larned for a very long time. This would have been one of those parks-- is one of those parks. You know, I've never really wanted to work at the Grand Canyons or the Yellowstones or-- I like the small parks, I like the staff. Everybody's got to work together -- there are no strangers. No single park comes to mind. I like it here, I really do.

Ben: That's interesting, in talking about small parks and you did at Badlands. I myself personally enjoy the small parks and I've loved my career and especially working here. So how was that going from your experience in small parks, how is that going to a bigger park and was that much of an adjustment?

Kevin: You know really it wasn't. So the stent there it was a-- I was acting Deputy Superintendent, lived there on a park. But the staff were from, for the most part, from the area or they lived on the park. I still got that same sense of Park Service community. So in that respect no it wasn't it wasn't different. The time of year in which I was there I was there through the summer and then the fall. The visitation was extremely high. That I had to get used to. But the evening and the mornings, the landscape is very similar to here, minus the hills, but other than that no. The visitation would have been the biggest difference. But the staff they were amazing, just like they are here and they've been at every other park I've worked at. My entire career for the most part has been small parks.

Ben: And that's something I've noticed too even working seasons at big parks is you sort of-- it may not be the whole park that has a sense of community but you definitely have these pockets of maybe your work group or those that you live around that you definitely sort of form that little community and that that small town mentality almost for a little bit. So getting into what you do here for someone who doesn't necessarily have experience in the Park Service or the command structure if you will, how would you explain what you do here in your position?

Kevin: So I view my position here as primarily trying to facilitate and help the staff do the various functions of their jobs, whatever that may be. Whether it's you know let's identified training so that staff can grow in their position or in desired future positions. It's helping out where I can, whether it's with getting the processes complete, like compliance, working with program managers, things of that nature. And all of that is in an effort to continue to preserve the park and its resources. As we were talking and before we started recording, really if it wasn't for the staff here, we wouldn't be able to for one maintain the buildings and even improve them as they need to be improved, and then to be able to tell the story of Fort. While we do have the resource and that is sort of what we're going towards, that the staff is part of the resource really.

Kevin: Oh yeah, absolutely. You know and I've been asked that question a few times as far as what the most important resource. In a way, it's hard to answer because answer is not what most people expect. You've got your-- every park has got the natural resources, your fish, fields, fur to manage. Every park has its cultural resources to manage. For example, at this park you know we've got part of the cultural resources are the facilities: the buildings. That's what people see initially whenever they come. But you know just in line in my opinion just in line with the natural resources and the cultural resources of any park I've ever worked at another resource that is on par would be the staff -- the employees of that park. Because if they don't care you know if they don't continue to strive to improve that park to tell the story of the park, incorporate their perspectives, then what do you have? Yeah you've got the cultural, natural resources but nobody's protecting them, nobody's preserving them, and so are they going to remain significant and a National Treasure? So the employees are right up there with the natural and cultural if not in my opinion the primary resource.

Canvas: So I mean even going-- adding on to that, having employees too who are willing to help share the story because I mean you could definitely could have some who are still interested in keeping the history and wanting to help preserve it and everything but just getting out and actually telling people this is what happened is definitely something too. And I feel like here we have a very good staff team that does that and volunteers too that are willing to actually come out and say this is what happened in this building, this is the people who were here and actually willing to share it with people whether they want to listen or not, so.

Kevin: Right. I made some notes I'll share with you along these lines. Canvas this is something that you and I had talked about previously. I think one of the questions you had asked is, you know in what ways can the employee change the way people feel and learn about the parks? And to me this is tied into the question you just asked, Ben. You know for employees, it's important that they bring creative and new ideas that engage all components of society and that they consider and present all cultures viewpoints both current and past so that the stories are told from all perspectives sort of that 360 view. And that they strive to identify and then incorporate new technologies whenever possible, because they're continuously changing. I mean look at what we're doing now it's a creative brilliant idea -- a good way to get the stories out and for people to learn to pique their interest.

Canvas: I feel like that's definitely true out here too especially at Fort Larned where the reason why the post is here at all is to help protect people travel on the Santa Fe Trail. And I mean it's against natives except why were the natives being hostile? So when you're looking at that, it's not just don't just tell it from one perspective as to why we're-- oh these people are being hostile towards us we need to build a fort. Look at why are they being hostile towards us which--

Kevin: Right.

Canvas: is really key out here.

Kevin: You know being invaded things of that nature. It's-- you need to be able to tell all perspectives. One of the other things for employees, for me, is it's easier said than done because you can get in a rut right, but never settle for you know, "we've always done it that way." You have to stay self-motivated and continue to push yourself to stay relevant with the changing times. The only constant is nothing is constant. And to you know to push yourself to come up with new ideas. Just like I said with the podcast here but not come up with those ideas only but implement them also, And then just like in life realize that not everything is going to be the way you think it should go. In other words, everything that you try is not going to be successful. That should Inspire us to-- and make us keep pushing, keep moving forward, trying harder, push ourselves beyond what we think we can do. If you're not uncomfortable, just like this, you know I'm uncomfortable in this, but if you're not uncomfortable in in some of the things that you're doing then you're-- you know my question is are you really growing? So it's important for the staff to keep that motivation and keep moving forward for the park to grow, for it to be preserved so and for the staff to grow. Like I said I've been in the Park Service for 33 years, at some point I'm going to retire. The existing staff are going to be in roles of leadership. You know, it's important that they realize that there are a lot of things that they can do and it's-- the key is to stay self-motivated and push themselves.

Ben: I like what you're were saying about if you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing that's something that I try to do that's why I try to do new things. And certainly as we started this podcast I wasn't comfortable doing that but hopefully getting a little better at it. Following that vein of what you do in your role here, of course the theme of this episode is Fort Larned's Future. A lot of what you do deals with what's down the road.

Kevin: Right.

Ben: So I mean while we have the staff here well we have the resource here we want to make sure what we have that's here, here to tell the story of the past but there's obviously things that we need to look to the future for in order to like you said keep improving, keep staying relevant and become better. Still telling in essence the same story, but hopefully tell--

Canvas: In a new light.

Ben: Yeah, telling it a new light. So if you're privy to say some of the things that you're looking for or just in general in the future that that you have to deal with on a daily basis.

Kevin: You hit on one key topic and that's you know to preserve history you have to manage forward and that's not only in buildings, the cultural resources, the natural resources, but also again primarily the staff. For the future of this park, of any park, you know you look to your staff. I do. I have learned more from the staff here than I ever thought I would and that's been the case pretty much in in every park that I've gone to. In my mind, the future of the park is the staff and if that's true then look to the staff and find out you know, what areas do they want to grow in? Do we have enough staff? What needs to be done at the park and then start working towards that. You've got to plan sometimes 3 to 5 years out or further in order to do that. And often times what I'll do is you know think down the road okay what do I need or what do I think the park needs in 5 years or what should it look like in 5 years and then step back. Or at least identify a component and not put a time frame to it. For example you've got a broad question what does the park-- what should the park look like in the future? You've got to identify okay are we going to-- are we talking about buildings, are we talking about staffing, are we talking about budgets? So you identify each one of those components and then you walk it back. Well if, for example, we want the Visitor Center to look this way, remodeled. We want to have the best Visitor Center in the Park Service. Okay well what does that look like? And you start identifying those components. Well we could have the latest technology, we could have a new movie, we could have you know all of these things, but then you-- when you break it down into components and start backing it up there are things you have to do in order to get there. Whether that's, you've got to fix things first and you back it up. And then from that process you get a timeline as well as projects that need to be done in order to realize that picture. More often than not that includes as a primary component your staff.

Ben: Obviously, I know you're usually very busy with meetings and things like that. So would you say that all those sort of revolve around that one of those components of what does the Fort look like a month from now, a year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now?

Kevin: Yes, every bit of it, Every bit of it, yeah. Because it's-- you know it's multifaceted. So for example, a question would be you know is the park as accessible as it should be? Well what does that mean? So let's go back let's identify exactly you know what does that mean, and then let's get the staff involved, and let's start getting ideas. But then also we need to incorporate outside groups as well, so that we have a more robust and creative process to identify those things. In this example, with accessibility, you're going to be touching on everything. Whether it's interpretation, how you interpret the park, facilities, how do you maintain them, and you start getting that planned out and work towards implementing it and in order to do that you've got to have a lot of meetings and talk to a lot of different groups.

Canvas: Working just at Fort Larned in general is there one particular aspect of work that you prefer over-- I mean I know Ben loves the reenactment part. Which I'm sure we all do to a sense. But it's like desk work, there's organizing, there's planning for the future, getting events set up, is there a particular thing that you have that you prefer to do workwise compared to just everything else there's just one thing that you're like oh this is my cup of tea?

Kevin: So I get a sense of accomplishment and most people do you know when you-- when you're able to look back and see something get done. And for a lot of people and me in a lot of respects that something that gets done is physical. A new roof, a new structure, a new road. But for me yes, those do give me a sense of accomplishment and they are very important, but more so what I really like to see is for the staff to grow. Grow in their skill sets, grow on their creativity, identify things and implement them. You know one of the things that I think, for myself a lot anyway, is I may come up with a 100 different ideas and try to implement 50 of them and if five of them work I'm happy. Because those five never would have been accomplished had I not identified 100. And so whenever you see staff and volunteers doing things and coming up with ideas and you see all of the excitement around that and you see them actually get the physical things done but you see the growth that's to me the most rewarding part of the job.

Ben: Seeing successes, I mean some sometimes you have you have failures in there too but then you learn and able to adjust and make it better the second time around.

Kevin: Right.

Canvas: Is there anything in the park future that you're looking forward to specifically?

Kevin: Mhmm. The Old Guard, our friends group, Fort Larned Old Guard, is-- they're an amazing group, and because of that and their work ethic, their professionalism, their creativity, they've done a lot of things for the park over the years. One of which is they purchased a village site with the intent of you know at some point being able to transfer that to the to the park which would be wonderful. As part of that process, they've been working on getting it listed as a National Historic Landmark, which would help to preserve it into the future. I mean they've put in a parking lot, they're talking about putting in waysides, holding events there. So to me that's-- for the future of the park that's very exciting you know let's get it listed as an NHL and let's see what we can move forward with.

Ben: So do you think eventually that may potentially be a satellite site to the Fort here?

Kevin: I'm hopeful, yeah.

Ben: Sort of like how the rut site is, but just a little further out.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful area it really is and it ties in with the fort. I mean it's--

Ben: 'Cuz that's where Handcock burned the Cheyenne Village, right?

Kevin: Right, right.

Ben: So have-- and the place he left from a couple days before was right here.

Kevin: Mhm, yeah. And then you've got all of these characters that were here, passed through that are tied to the village and then after that as well. So there are a lot of stories, a lot of perspectives.

Ben: That's one thing that again when I talk to visitors I had tell them I love about this place is we know for a fact that there's over 270 officers here. That doesn't count the enlisted men that were here, the civilians who worked here, the travelers on the trail, the Plains Indians that were here. When you add that in you have thousands if not maybe close to a million stories that you can tell and so it's really cool to have the prospect of having something that we can add to the story and add to the interpretation here even though it's not necessarily right on site but it does add to the whole story of Fort Larned.

Kevin: Right. And ties in.

Ben: So I mean there are a lot of friends groups, in our in our next episode we are actually going to hear from the chairperson of The Old Guard. Friends groups aren't they're not mutually exclusive to Fort Larned, so what are your experiences working with cooperating organizations like friends groups, or like Western National Parks Association who runs our bookstore, and things like that? Because I assume you have a lot of relationship with people like that in your position.

Kevin: Right. I've worked you know at other parks I worked-- we had a friends group there as well and there were other at various times organizations that we worked with depending on you know if it was for hiking trails, bicycle paths, land acquisition things of that nature. Out of every park that I've worked at there have been groups, but I would have to say you know that The Old Guard is right at the top as far as what they've done you know for the park, for the history, and what they're currently doing, the direction they're going.

Ben: I mean they're always looking in the future and that's why we have that interview in this in the Fort Larned's Future because that's-- while they do help us keep what's here, here they do also help us for future projects and for future acquisitions and things like that. As we were talking about I think in the first couple episodes of this season we were talking about some of the things that they've been able to acquire for us. We have a Trapdoor Rifle that was used here, Captain Nolan's revolver, Frank Baldwin's sword, just really cool things that we wouldn't otherwise be able to get our hands on-- we're able to help tell the story of the fort and that's all thanks to really the volunteers with The Old Guard.

Kevin: You know one of the things and Canvas had asked me and I'm going to turn it around on you Ben, make this an interview about you. You know canvas had asked me previously uh about volunteers you know how do you grow volunteers, what future do you see for volunteers here, future growth? You know I know that you've been a driving force here at the park with volunteers, whether they're living historians, I know you're working on getting a band going, but also long-term volunteers like we just had and like your working on coming up. That's a big accomplishment. You know what do you see for the future?

Ben: Yeah, so--

Kevin: Put you on the spot.

Ben: Yeah, well taking it back a little bit 'cuz I mean I do focus on history quite a bit so it's easy for me to look in the past, I got my start in the Park Service as a volunteer. My goal, my career goal when I was in Middle School was to become a National Park Service Ranger so I set my sites on that early found the path that I could take and that was starting out with volunteering. So I volunteered at my local National Park, had lots of new experiences, was uncomfortable many times, but was able to grow through that. And so my goal is to involve as many volunteers as we can, because the National Park Service can't do what we do without volunteers.

Kevin: Right.

Ben: And giving the volunteers new experiences. As I'm sure Canvas, have you ever been on a podcast before?

Canvas: I've never been on a podcast.

Ben: There we go.

Canvas: There's a new experience unlocked.

Kevin: Yeah, same here.

Ben: Yeah, so--

Canvas: We're all in it together.

Ben: Learning new things and doing new things. I know for especially our younger volunteers, public speaking is not necessarily something they're comfortable with but here we have a great stage for them to just have conversations have-- talk with people and get in that interpretation and tell the story and give that visitor a positive experience. So not only including more volunteers to help us out, but help them out as much as possible, give them new experiences help them along the lines that they enjoy. For example Canvas you have done a lot of research into Hospital Stewards and things like that which has grown my knowledge and my interpretation of the site. And then we had our long-term volunteer Lynn, who's a co-host on the last episode, she loves researching so she did a lot of research for us while she was here. She added oh I don't know it was like a good 5 inch stack of papers to our files of things that she found. So finding out what the volunteers enjoy, for one, because if we're not giving them something that they enjoy or something that they can use to grow, they're not necessarily going to keep coming back.

Kevin: Right.

Ben: And so finding ways to do that so-- and along the lines of growing the staff of what are their goals what do they want and help them that way.

Kevin: What would you want or need for the Superintendent at Fort Larned to do to help you?

Ben: That's a question I haven't really thought about, so you're putting me on the spot.

Kevin: I am.

Ben: But no, I guess just the support you've already given has been fantastic and I know any interaction that you've had with the volunteers has been, they always come back with you're just an awesome person. I think when they see someone of your leadership status caring about everyone be that a visitor, volunteer, staff member, I think that goes a long way. I can definitely tell that your ears are always open.

Kevin: I have learned more from the staff just listening to them. That's going back to your question earlier Canvas, that's one of the things that I really like especially-- and it's been my whole experience with small parks, but being able to interact with with all of the staff, all of the volunteers, you can have the opportunity to learn so much from them.

Ben: Yeah, we have a lot of knowledge here and not just one person has it.

Kevin: No, no.

Ben: That's what's that's what's been extraordinary about this podcast too is being able to dive into George's knowledge, into Mike's knowledge, into Bill Chapman's knowledge, into Tyler's knowledge, and yeah and into yours too and your prior experiences. That's been really eye opening into what goes on that I don't necessarily worry about on a day-to-day but is being worried about by other people in the park.

Kevin: Right. We wouldn't be able to have the time or the luxury to worry about that and look at planning for the park's future if not for the staff. And the volunteers doing what they do. So it's a-- it goes both ways, it's a give and take.

Canvas: Moving on into the future of the park, we're currently working on a couple things for it including this building. I mean really just when-- 'cuz I mean this building, been here forever and no one's really had access to it from the public so when do you think-- I mean people should come out here because everything's constantly changing of course and every time I come out here I learn something new. So the chance of people have never been out here before learning something new is very high. So I mean even the people have come out here before, when should they come back out here to expect to see this building open?

Kevin: So you know we're looking at right now we're doing-- and you can see from the interior some of the work that's been done. Right now essentially we're making an assessment. What kind of shape is the building in? What needs to be done to the building? And then from that they'll start putting together some documents for construction. And so we're-- so you got a phase one and a phase two, right now we're in phase one and it's not that nothing is going on, there's a lot. I mean if you go down into the bottom floor, you can see where they've taken up the modern floor and you can see the historic floor. We're taking an assessment in this example of the historic floor, how much of it can be saved preserved and what needs to be done in order to do that? The phase one assessment should be done this year. Soon thereafter we would start the construction. So you know if everything goes according to plan couple, of years 3 years and this building will be renovated and opened up hopefully. But there are a lot of other things right now we've got a mess behind the Visitor Center. Putting in you know-- when we talk about facilities it also includes things like water and sewage. For the most part, any park is like a city unto itself, because you've got water, sewer, electric, utilities and all those have to be managed and at times they have life cycles that need to be replaced and so right now we're replacing a septic system. You know we're very fortunate to have Bill Chapman, our Facilities Manager, he's very forward thinking and very proactive in identifying projects, things that need to get done, and then going after the funding to get them done. Some of the other things that we're looking at in the next 3 to 5 years are roofs. Re-roofing most of the buildings if not all. Painting several of the buildings, fixing the plaster work inside you know with the cracks and things of that nature. We're looking at maintaining our roads, signage, waysides. So everything again is in a constant state of change. It's Bill Chapman's job to arrest that change or repair it as soon as possible. And so things are always changing and you know in the same respects that's true with telling the stories of the park. Different ways of telling the story again these podcasts. Ben I know that you and another Park Ranger, Celeste just worked on a project and are hoping to get funding for it. Can you tell a little bit about that?

Ben: Yeah so the Park Service is working on finding some pilot parks for augmented reality. Although it will take some money to do it, it's going to take a lot less money than say rebuilding a whole structure. So what we're working on right now is the beginnings of the project to hopefully add augmented reality so you can see the Cavalry Stables through the Park Service app. And so you'd be able to go to around the location of where the stables were and though it won't actually be there, you can see what it would look like in the landscape which would be awesome.

Kevin: Yeah, that would really be neat. And that's through looking through your smartphone.

Ben: Yeah. And again a lot cheaper than right and a lot easier to maintain. And then I also know that that y'all are working on another Window to the Past for the laundresses so that should be done. I would say come to the park as much as possible, because things are constantly being worked on, improved new things are being done. Whether you can physically see them or not it may be like the band Ben is working on getting that going. It may be new programs, it may be new stories that are being told, but you know this park is growing consistently and that's one of the things I've noticed since I've been here. Not only through projects on facilities but interpretively as well through those types of programs. So I would say come often.

Ben: And if I can add to that, personally I've of course I've worked here for a little over four years now, so I've been here on a daily basis pretty much that whole time, and I am still always learning something. So even if you've been out here 10, 20 times--

Kevin: Right.

Ben: There's always something to learn.

Kevin: Absolutely and you know, I would encourage people to visit with the Park Rangers. The amount of knowledge that is-- that the staff has at this park is amazing. I at times sit and just try to think of questions to ask you know George for example to see if I can stump him and I've yet to do so.

Ben: I've had the same experience. Alright so as we wrap up, another thing we've been asking all our guests this season is how can our listeners help? Whether they're local whether they're not, what are some more ways they can help either your job or just help the park in general?

Kevin: Come to the park, you know absolutely if you can, if not you know come to the park through digital means. With today's technology, there are apps, we've got our website I know, well, Ben you're always putting up new things on the website like you did with the Blacksmith last year. I would learn as much about the park as you can and then and tell people about it. If you've got the time and the inclination please come out and volunteer. If you can't physically be here, there may be volunteers options where you can do it offsite, remotely. You know we appreciate the interest in the park and help us continue to grow that through whatever means we can.

Canvas: What event that's coming up are you looking forward to most?

Kevin: Mess and Muster!

Ben: That's going to be a fun one.

Canvas: It will be a fun one.

Kevin: And I think I told you this earlier, Canvas, but you know last year literally and figuratively I had an absolute ball.

Ben: That was fun.

Kevin: It was fun! Got to dance, yeah.

Canvas: I mean we have lots of events throughout the year too that people can come out for but I mean don't just come out for those. We got a lot of things that you can learn about out here and things going on constantly.

Ben: Well thanks for coming on and sharing a little bit about what you do and giving us some insight into the park's future.

Kevin: Oh you bet, thank you. I appreciate you having me.

Ben: Alright, have a good one.

Kevin: You too.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright well thank you for taking a listen, we certainly appreciate it. If you haven't already, check us out on social media, we're on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And also check out our website we have some great resources for you on there be sure to leave us a rating and review.

Canvas: If you already follow us on social media, be sure to check out Nicodemus National Historic Site as well. They have great resources and things that you can learn about there too.

Ben: Wonderful and thank you again for taking a listen.

Canvas: And we will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Host: Ben Long Co-host: Canvas Lovesee Guest: Kevin Eads Description: As the fort’s Superintendent, Kevin Eads’ job revolves around looking into the future of the park to not only ensure it remains for future generations, but to improve it as well. Join us as we dive into the uncertainty that is Fort Larned’s future and the role visitors, volunteers, and staff play in it.

December 2, 2023

4. Fort Larned's Present (Part 2)

Transcript

Transcript

[Footstep intro music plays along with sounds of the fort]

Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast. I'm your host Ranger Ben. In this season, we are taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today is part two on Fort Larned's present where we're focusing on keeping what's here, here. Today I'm joined by our volunteer Lynn. How are you today?

Lynn King: I'm good!

Ben: As we get this kicked off why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself what drew you to Fort Larned and some of the things you find interesting about being here.

Lynn: Yeah, so back in May of this year, my husband and I decided to semi-retire and take some time to do sort of a two-fer. One is to travel and enjoy National Parks, because we love them, not just the parks like capital "N" capital "P" National Parks but all the National Park sites and also State Parks too. Like we really love the parks of this country. So to do that, to travel, to kind of get into all the really great places that this country has to offer, because it's huge and varied, right? On any other continent I think that you would, in order to see, you know, Niagara Falls and the Adirondacks and the, you know, the beautiful Green Mountains of Vermont and the coast of Maine, those would all be different countries, let alone down the swamps of Florida and, you know, the culture of New Orleans and then over into the Prairie States and then down into the Southwest. I mean, in any other continent those would be different countries and in the US it's all one country which makes it really easy to travel. But you still get this huge variety of beauty and culture and history and it's marvelous. So we're doing that. We're taking some time, we're still working part-time but we're doing a lot of traveling and we're doing a lot of volunteering in the Parks, because we found that that is a really amazing way to slow down and really absorb what is wonderful about a place.

Ben: Yeah, as Jeff was saying on the episode with Bill Chapman, he said you're lucky to have one, blessed to have two days in a park and so being able to spend one, two, three months at a park, you really get to dive in deep to what makes it special.

Lynn: Yeah! I mean so we live on site in our camper, and every single morning we watch the sunrise, look over at this really cool historic site that is part of this you know it's a-- the Santa Fe Trail is a fairly obscure, small part of American history but also really interesting and really important in its own way. I mean I think you'll hear later in the episode Tyler refers to this fort as being on the highway of the time -- and it was, right? I mean this was the Santa Fe Trail was a really big deal.

Ben: Yeah it was a it was a great interview and like you said it was it was cool to hear Tyler's perspective and his experience in the Parks as well. So our guest today is Tyler Blind. He is our-- his official title I believe is Carpenter. He is here through different project money and things like that helping with historic preservation and restoration on a few of our buildings. One of my favorite parts of the interview was getting to hear just how deep he has to go into learning from those before him, and doing research into historic preservation techniques to redo some of these things the same way that they were done 150 sometimes 200 years ago. And so that was that was really neat for me.

Lynn: Yeah, I would say what really resonated with me in Tyler's story and his journey with the National Parks was something that I think he and I probably both have in common, which is that our roles with the Parks is to sort of be a bit like Mary Poppins, right? Like we get to come into a place that is already wonderful in its own way and then we get to, at least for a time, put our hands on it and make it better and also really enjoy it. He got to put his hands on all sorts of different really interesting stuff in really interesting places and he got to enjoy not only his work but also the place of the National Park Site where he was.

Ben: It was a great interview we had a great time and we hope you also enjoy it, so here you go!

[Whoosh]

Ben: Welcome Tyler.

Tyler Blind: Well hello.

Ben: Thanks for coming on and telling us a little bit about what you do. Why don't we get started with your name, title, how long you've been here and what other Parks you've worked at.

Tyler: Well my name is Tyler Blind. Here at the Park, I'm technically Carpenter but it's also called like Historic Preservationist. I have worked-- I started off at Herbert Hoover National Historic Site in West Branch, Iowa. That was July of 2015 to November '17 working seasonally 6 months at a time. That's just the birthplace and burial site of former president Herbert Hoover. They have his original birthplace cottage there and his gravesite up there. Then next, was a-- I had a year and a half break and then I went back to the park service and that is when I came to Fort Larned for the first time in June of 2019. That was right after Memorial Day.

Ben: With all the flooding.

Tyler: When the was closed. Yep, I remember like a week before moving here, I saw the Instagram and there's water-- they closed the park down cuz the entrance Road was flooded. I'm like "okay there's going to be some work to do when we get there." Turns out that kind of like reduced the amount of work we had to do because there's no mowing to be done.

Ben: That's true.

Tyler: Cuz you don't mow in that wet of grass. The Oxbow had water in it.

Ben: I remember that.

Tyler: And I think it maybe a month or two later that it was finally not staining water in the Oxbow and everyone's like "that's never happened." So then it was Fort Larned and then that-- I was done in December. And then April, the third week of April in 2020, I moved to Seneca Falls to work at the Women's Rights National Historical Park. There I was just a regular Maintenance Worker like it been everywhere else. That was done. Done working there in December and then when went to April of 2021 was Cuyahoga Valley National Park. And there I was a painter there -- a Painter Helper. And then the following Spring I got hired here as a Carpenter.

Ben: That was, shoot, that was with project money too, right?

Tyler: Yep.

Ben: So even though this is a temporary position, it's been extended quite a bit.

Tyler: Yep, through-- that was originally project money and then it got switched up to like a temporary COVID hire money and now we're just-- Adrian and I are being paid out of Soft Funding type money right now.

Lynn: So for listeners who have no idea what those terms mean what is Project Money what is Soft Money what is COVID Money?

Tyler: I don't know what the Soft Money Hard Money-- that would have been a question to ask "Chappy" when he was on. It's like fixed money then there's like extra money they can use stuff here and there for and believe that's-- as far as I know that's what is money we can use here and there. Other money has to be spent on this and that then there like the soft money can be here or there where we need it and they've decided to keep us around a little while longer. Hence why we're doing all the all the work on this building is that we're currently in the Commanding Officer Quarters is all the tear out stuff we're doing and preparation for restoring it to what it looked like and opening up to be an exhibit is all out of that.

Lynn: Okay so project money is earmarked for a very specific project.

Tyler: Yep.

Lynn: And soft money, the Fort or Historic Site or whatever site can use at its own discretion for what it thinks needs to get done?

Tyler: I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that but that's what-- something along those lines I can't tell you. I'm not a Facility Manager somebody else like that. Project Money is they get, you know, people like Facility Managers have to figure out a project, figure out how much it's going to cost, put that all in the system and then get that kind of money approved as like extra money for the park over like the base budget. And so that is all-- that's what I've-- besides when I was at Women's Rights, that was what I was always paid out of for every Park I've been to. It's always been I got a project they get them like every year they get a project for their Seasonals to be able to work on and you work out of that.

Lynn: Okay so when you come into a park, generally, you are extra, you're not part of their core staff you come in and you just-- you help out with whatever above and beyond stuff you can get done for them.

Tyler: If you're talking the difference between like Permanent, yeah. But they plan on Seasonals every year they know that's going to be part of the budget every year for certain Seasonals and stuff like that.

Ben: They just have to have certain projects lined up for the Seasonals to do.

Tyler: Yeah and they line it up so well that they can pretty much-- they plan on it every year unless something like major or drastic different happens.

Lynn: So what led you to work for the National Parks.

Tyler: I've always enjoyed the Parks, being outside, it's going to sound random cuz like some people like I just I did this I volunteer to do this so I can get in here and do all this. That that wasn't me, mine was pretty random. I was-- going back, I used to work in a factory and when they laid me off, I decided to go back to college and get a degree. And after getting my Associates and then headed back to the University of Iowa to-- actually not headed back, but going to the University of Iowa while working there I was doing granite work like I'd done before a long-- a while ago. And just a really bad day working at a company that I didn't like with the, you know, school stress and other things going on in life. And I mean a really bad day on top of what was not being good weeks you know and I just went home and ignored my schoolwork and just applied for like 20 different jobs. And one of them was the National Park Service who called me up and you know within a while later I was doing fingerprints and you know the background checks and everything. But yeah, no just bad day at work, stressful, decided to apply for a bunch of jobs I'm like well that sounds fascinating to work, you know, in historic place and I applied and yeah. Then actually got the job.

Ben: So then the follow question to that: what has kept you in the National Park Service?

Tyler: Oh well yeah that is the most important part. I do really like history, I like old style like construction stuff, the way things used to be, and just working in the Park Service, I've worked for corporations I've worked for small businesses and it's always a lot of ah just get it done. Just get it done. And you know if it's messed up maybe we'll get to it later. The way our system works in the Parks, it has to be done right the first time. We don't have all the time to do it this way, we don't have all the budgeting or just the time or anything. Like do it right because it's historic and it needs to be done right the first time and done well. And so I do like that. Preserving history I think is-- and you know amazing and important and then you get to like other different non-historical parks and you're preserving like nature and cultural stuff and just like, yeah okay yeah, this is you know it's a great mission to be on to help preserve all this stuff and actually also help and increase my skills and everything like that. And it's not the same thing every day. You could go out and be doing masonry like I used to do and just doing brick, after brick, after brick, after brick, or block you know whatever and you know that that does get boring and tedious at the time. I'll get really good at it because I am good at repetitive tasks, but it does get a little-- for the mind it's not that exciting or rewarding. But you get to work on all kinds of different stuff over here it's yeah it's fun you get to go see some nice places. I really enjoyed like when I was at Cuyahoga Valley I would just plan some of my days where I had to go do other stuff, I'd plan my day and just take a park at by the lake or by this or watch the steam train go by or-- you know just bring a lunch and it's like a picnic every day in the Park Service it's quite nice as long as the weather's good you know sometimes it's not so great and sometimes your picnic flies away when you're in Kansas. It's like oh it's a beautiful day if it wasn't for that wind blowing everything away. Whatever National Park you're in you're usually not too far away from nature and just being able to just go out and just yeah sit amongst the trees or the prairie out here and just watch stuff, yeah.

Lynn: So it sounds like you have pretty good experience working on both modern renovations as well as historic renovations. Could you describe the difference of what it's like to work on one versus the other?

Tyler: A lot of material difference there's a lot, like your lumber. If you go down to the basement of this building where we tore out the chimney that used to be there, you can see the lumber that they used to have there, they're not 2x4 pine. And you know 2x4 we're not even talking you know modern lumber is not even 2 inches by 4 inches. Yeah, you're actually smaller than that and the down there in the walls of this building, we've seen that they're actually like 4x4 posts like you would have like for a fence like literally what we have like the fence post out here is what the studs on these walls are made out of and then even some of the floor bracing. As I was under there yesterday trying to hammer out that foundation and yeah, just different lumber materials, the stone materials can be different. A lot of different materials and just the way things were done a little bit differently back then you don't have all the screws that-- a lot more nails holding stuff and sometimes just more like friction fit type stuff. Where it's just it's so tightly put together that doesn't need all that extra stuff. Takes bit more time, bit more precision.

Lynn: It sounds like it might also be a bit more mental work for you guys to figure out how to reconstruct some of the materials because you're not going to go to a Home Depot and buy it off the shelf.

Tyler: Oh yeah no, I had to go-- the materials for some of the windows that we're doing it has to be clear white pine and there's not any of that so just last year had to go take the trailer and drive all the way to Springfield, Missouri with an overnight stay and pick up a trailer full of clear white pine Lumber for us to have.

Ben: Continuing down the line of the modern stuff versus the historic stuff. Both times you've been here have focused on a different thing. So your first time here your project that season was some of the new museum renovations and then this time you're working on more historic renovation or historic preservation and restoration of some of the windows and things like that. Why don't you go into some of the differences there or some of the challenges that you had with both of those.

Tyler: Yeah the 2019 they-- I think they began in fiscal year of 2018 doing some stuff in museum moving stuff around so yeah. I came through when the museum was like, it had a lot of stuff I never saw what the old museum looked like, I saw like half of it because they still had like half the stuff on display while it was blocked off kind of moving stuff around as we were working. And that's the interesting part about working like in museums or in some of these areas we're still trying to keep it open for the public, cuz some people don't go to the parks, the same park all the time. Some people this would be the only time they ever had to this park to see what it is. So we kind of want to have on display all that we can. Doesn't always happen that way and especially you know not a lot of people come out to Larned you know as it was. This used to be right on a stop on the interstate of the day and it's not anymore. Yeah, we were doing drywall, and painting, and then putting some carpet down, gluing carpet down, carpet squares with a little rubber backing on them. Yeah it's not stuff they did back in the day. There's some electrical stuff going on putting in all the track lighting. And those aren't things that you what you do you don't build dry a wall for these buildings. I mean these are these are wood lath and plaster put up on them. That was a lot more modern going on with there and now here yeah, fixing windows and you know the clear white pine and just tear them all apart. A lot of them like they don't use the trim around to keep the actual window in those are nailed in but like the actual like sashes themselves, there's no mechanical-- there's no nails or screws holding them in those were all just like mortice and tenon joints and little wedges and actually friction fit everything in together. So they actually hold together without having to be screwed or anything like that. So I got to do that doing a little a little detailed like playing with a shaper to do like what we would do like molding type work to make the muttons and the rails on the windows. That's a brand new thing for me here to learn I'd actually like work a shaper and get those blades which the former Carpenter made most of them by hand -- those blades to actually do a lot of the profiling on these. And every building has a different profile and a different thickness of these windows.

Lynn: So it sounds like you, even here at for Larned which is a Historic Site, you've done pretty big spectrum of both modern stuff like in the museum, largely modern renovations, versus here over in the Officer's Quarters which are being renovated where it's all extremely hand worked, custom, truly historic renovations where you're trying to be as authentic as possible.

Tyler: We got to paint the walls with paint rollers.

Lynn: Okay

Tyler: So I mean that's about I mean you got some power tools to working it's a lot easier to make those sashes in the shop than what they would have done back in the day. But yeah, that's about some of the more modern tools. But yeah, we could use paint rollers on the wall. Ideally you'd like a brushed look on the wall, but modern paint nowadays does not let-- they're all self-leveling paint, so like you can't even yeah you can't buy paint at the store to actually get a brush look anymore. There are ways but it won't be-- all the good paint doesn't let you put brush marks in it cuz yeah the-- "Chappy" here wanted me to do that on the first room that we did over on 09 on the on the renovation project last year and I waited till that paint was almost-- it was just the tackiest it's ever going to be. Some of it was even-- so I took a brush and I just-- the whole two walls of that room there, top to bottom. Came back and I was like okay there's the brush look. Came back the next day and all perfectly smooth.

Ben: Oh goodness!

Tyler: So those are some stuff with the materials that is different when you're doing now that-- yeah you can't really do that, those paints nowadays are actually so much easier for like your average consumer to use so they don't have to worry about putting like brush marks-- it's possible but not really feasible to do with.

Lynn: So how are you learning to do all these different historical techniques? Like you said you had to figure out how to try to put brush marks on the wall and you're learning you know you're learning how to make custom molding for example. So like can you give us some examples of different skills you've had to learn and maybe how you figured it out?

Tyler: Well all the window stuff that I was having to do here I can thank the former coworker huge, huge help. And that was part of what you know part of my hiring here "Chappy"'s like "I know you don't know entirely how to do this but I know you can learn it and so Robert's going to help you do it cuz Robert's been doing it for 12 years but he's got his own projects and everything that he's got to do so he doesn't have time to do this major project" on 09-- I'm sorry 07 or is the South Junior Officers Quarters as we would call it.

Lynn: It's interesting. You know as a person who is, I think of myself as a National Park Super Fan in some ways, love the National Park System and I definitely think of it as a place of recreation and beauty and preservation. I really had never thought of it until now as also a repository of historic skills. When I asked you how you learn that you said I learned it from someone else who'd been doing it for 12 years and he probably learned it from someone else who' been doing it for a decade or more.

Tyler: Yeah, Robert went to, I think he went to school but not entirely for that and then yeah so he had to learn most of those skills here. I mean, yeah it's those skills that you pick up and learn on. It's like to revert to that tuck pointing on the Blockhouse what we were doing earlier this year. I've done tuck pointing previously I learned it when I was going to school for a year doing-- for masonry and I've done it on chimneys, buildings, porches, and stuff like you know lots of different things mostly chimneys though. That's actually part of what got me hired at Herbert Hoover initially was that they had two chimneys they needed tuck pointed. One on their schoolhouse and one on their blacksmith.

Lynn: Ok, so can you, for folks who haven't been here, or haven't been here in a while, could you describe three things? What is the Blockhouse, what does it look like, and then what is tuck pointing?

Tyler: Yes so the Blockhouse-- it kind of sits off the like the Parade Grounds a little bit it's like this weird building it's kind of different from the-- I mean all the other buildings are rectangular and the Blockhouse sits out there. The blockhouse is hexagon shaped with a little-- a very shallow pitch cedar roof, then it's got like a Sentry Watchtower on top. It's made of the same sandstone that all the other buildings around here are made out of and it's got a tunnel inside and a door that leads to a well room. I think Ben would be able to better tell exactly what the blockhouse was used for cuz my understanding was that has two different purposes back during the fort period.

Ben: Yeah so the blockhouse originally was a defensive position um and was one of the first sandstone buildings to be constructed. So there's 100 rifle loopholes in there to help defend the fort from all angles. It was a last ditch effort location if the Fort was under attack you do have the loopholes in the two other South buildings too that you could defend the fort with. But then since it hadn't been used as a defensive position by the time the Army gets around to constructing the guardhouse, which would be in between the Shops and the New Commissary, they realized that they hadn't used the Blockhouse, likely wouldn't have to use it, and so they decided to save money and convert the Blockhouse into the Guardhouse. So that tunnel led to an underground well in the case that the fort was attacked, you still had access to water. But then that tunnel became solitary confinement for the especially misbehaving soldiers. But yeah you get the two levels of rifle loopholes for the defense of the fort but then later the Guardhouse.

Lynn: What's a rifle loophole?

Ben: That's a good question. On a ship it's called a port hole on land it's called a loophole. But it's a hole in the side of the building that you can use to stick your rifle out of and help defend the fort.

Lynn: So the Blockhouse, in summary, is a combination of a guard and sentry building, and it's hexagon-shaped so they have a pretty good view from all angles of who might be coming. It's also fortified in a way that if there was an attack, soldiers could get in there, they had lots of places to point their guns out of to hold down the fort literally. And then also it was used as a place for punishment. So if you were a misbehaving soldier, you might be sent there with a ball and chain, you might be sent there and put down in the, in my opinion, very creepy, not smelling so fantastic, solitary confinement.

Tyler: I was in that tunnel earlier this year for replacing boards in the tunnel that were rotten out cuz there's moisture getting down in there. It is not very comfortable and I'm not very tall, I'm only like 5'9" so yeah it's not a comfortable walk down there.

Lynn: Okay so now we know what the Blockhouse is. What is tuck pointing?

Tyler: Tuck pointing is just a-- it's not done a whole lot nowadays but even that's kind of how masonry structures are designed. So masonry structures, you have your stone but then so they're not just like free holding stuff you put your mortar in to help hold them together and the mortar, best way to put it is like the material the whatever masonry material you're using doesn't matter what type of stone it is brick, block, or whatever even sandstone like this, those aren't supposed to wear down or break or degrade. If it is, there's an issue going on elsewhere with the building maybe water's getting in or whatever. The mortar is supposed to wear like especially as buildings shift and move. We have them on these buildings, we have gauges on these buildings, we're measuring these buildings and how they shift and settle and move. And with the tuck pointing you're going to have joints wear out just over through like erosion and time and sometimes they'll crack from the shifting but that's where they're supposed to crack. When you like walk on a sidewalk and those sidewalks-- they'll pour a sidewalk primarily as all one piece of concrete, but they'll cut or they'll put grooves in that and that's designed to be where as the sidewalk shifts and weather changes, that's where the crack goes. Mortar kind of does the same thing and that's usually that's where you want the damage to go to because that's easy to replace. Replacing actual stones and bricks, that's a that's a lot more work, don't want to do that. So the mortar is designed to wear away instead of the actual stone and that's why you have castles that are you know when you go over, I love castles, when you go over to other countries, that's why you have castles that have been there for hundreds and hundreds and some almost like over a thousand years. And the stones and materials in there are still the original stones because that's how they're designed to be built. So tuck pointing whether they're wearing away themselves or whether the mortar is just starting to crack and have holes in it, tuck pointing is where you just go in usually you can you can hand chisel them if you need to or you can use like a grinder with a special little bit on there a tuck pointing bit and it'll knock all that mortar out usually go back about quarter maybe a half an inch. You remove all of that mortar there from that damaged area section and then you just go back in you take a little bit of mortar, I usually put on the back side of my masonry trial and then you have the these little tuck pointers which are just like really thin they're like a trowel but they're, like a masonry trowel, but instead of like the diamond-ish shape they're rectangular and they're thin. We can get them up like a 1/2 inch, 3/8, 1/4 inch sizes. We even have an 1/8 inch ones here, because the stones around here some of them are slapped together so tight. Some of them are actually touching and then they like groove out the outside of the stone and then fill it full on mortar to give you a false joint. And you just take the mortar you put it on the back side of your trowel and instead of like scraping it onto the material like you would for like another for like actually putting together a wall, you just take your little tuck pointer you put that trowel up against it and you just slowly but surely just push it off the trowel and into the hole and have to change sizes depending upon-- especially around here um it's a full kit of tuck pointers. And yep just slowly filling them in until you're out towards the front of them flush with the stone. Then give it a little bit of time to dry because you'll kind of have like muffin top like little squeeze overs from the tooling and then you can just take a brush and brush them all off and they'll give them a nice brush look or-- and it'll get all the little flakes off there from what you were pushing in there. Because, I mean you have to make sure they're full. If you do not fill them in and you leave gaps, moisture will get into those gaps and then moisture in a wall will damage it and then that's just yeah-- you just need to fill them full or else water damage is going to happen and then they're going to erode and go bad. But yeah you just fill them full like that it is a very tedious process people watch me do it sometimes and they're just like "ugh". Like they just could not imagine doing it themselves but I like that tediousness. I like that, especially it's one of those projects where you grind it out, your section, and then within like 10 minutes you got all your mortar in there and then however fast it's drying you go right through and you can do like a whole section in like in like a half hour. Grind to a brand new joints-- the difference you can make is just huge. And it's and it's good for it because, yeah, we're putting that mortar back in. So your modern mortar has like Portland Cement in it and so they last like 50-75 years that's why you don't see tuck pointing happen a whole lot nowadays because your mortar is so strong. Our mortar here they didn't have Portland Cement back in the day. It's a weird history of Portland Cement but we didn't have it. And then we especially didn't have it over in the US, so it's just sand and lime. Two part sand to one part lime mix, the sand is your bulk and then your lime is your elasticity and kind of holds all the glue together and like some of these the lime is out of it so it's just like compacted sand.

Lynn: So what are you using for mortar now, are you using historically accurate mortar?

Tyler: Yes we have to use historically accurate mortar here because it's what we it's what we call a soft mortar. So like every mortar has like pounds per square inch of pressure it can take and-- or like it gives off itself and your mortar has to be weaker than your stone essentially. That way, if we were to put, and it had been done before during the ranch period and maybe other times, where there actually is like Portland Mortar used in these buildings. That's not good because then when the building shifts and moves the mortar will be stronger than the stone so it'll cause the stone to actually break or start to spall as we call it where like it start to flake off near the near the edges of the mortar. So as everything moves you know there's pressure when they move something has to give. The idea is it's the mortar that gives or wears away then we can just replace that easily it's just you know going over tuck pointing. As some people don't think it's easy I think it's easy-- "oh here we go, buh, buh, buh", tuck point the mortar back in. Otherwise the stone will actually damage and we don't want that even if it wasn't a historic building it's a lot more work and then on historic building we're trying to preserve the history around here so that's a real bummer when that kind of stuff happens when you got to actually replace something historic around here. So yeah no we use what is just a soft mortar because that's what we have to use around here. It's not just for historical accuracy, it's for the safety of the material itself.

Lynn: Yeah because the sandstone of the buildings here are it's pretty soft stone.

Tyler: They're very soft stone and these are even harder than what they naturally would have been. If you saw we were doing on the Blockhouse just last month after we got done tuck pointing, we were spraying it, we're actually spraying this it's a consolidator. With this consolidator that makes the stone stronger, about twice as strong as it actually is. And that's one of our preservation processes around here.

Lynn: So a consolidator is something you'd spray on stone to help prevent the stone from eroding?

Tyler: It makes it stronger, yep. So it'll hold up to the weather a lot more it won't be as easy you know as you know you go around the buildings of this, here and there's a lot of people scribing into the walls and there's a reason they did that it's very easy to do it. It does not take a whole lot of time for somebody to come through and do that.

Lynn: And just to be clear for everyone listening: no one is writing their names on the buildings anymore but they used to prior to the Park Service.

Ben: It's no longer legal.

Tyler: That's at a very good point.

Ben: And that's another thing too that one way you can help out if you are visiting is to, if you see something like that happening say something about it. We'll be very grateful.

Tyler: And your historic structures are just like nature -- leave it the way you saw it when you came in.

Lynn: Feel free to take pictures of it.

Ben: Yes.

Tyler: But it but it is difficult with all the Ranch Period stuff that adds the history of these buildings they go and they're like "oh these people did it, oh they're everywhere" then they kind of get that idea to do it themselves just like yeah, no. That's, yeah.

Lynn: Some visitors definitely do not know, before they talk to us, they don't know that the graffiti is actually fairly historical because they'll see you know dates from the 1900s and think it's still going on until we explain that no-no now that it's a National Park Site, it's not allowed anymore. The previous owners encouraged it but now it's a no-no.

Tyler: I call it historic tagging instead of graffiti. Which speaking of which, over in the South Junior Officer Quarters in one of the rooms over there, when last year we were doing painting, wallpaper repair, re-oiling the floors, and wood grain staining. It's just a very complicated process. So to do it you have to have bare wood and then you prime it and usually with clear white pine it absorbs primer so quick and so much you have to prime them twice. So two layers of primer, a layer of Franciscan Ivory paint and then a layer of stain then another-- which then you wait to get slightly tacky, paint thinner and a brush and a rag and you go over that you're trying to thin it out where it has these wood grain stains you can see the layer down below. And then you do that for a second layer of stain. And then you got to go with your clear coat of poly to give it a nice shiny look so that's six coats and those coats of stain from the best guesses of I guess a guy back in the 1980s those coats of stain sometimes are not even like straight up this color that color they're two different colors or they're two different colors mixed together.

Lynn: So why was it important for you to do six layers of staining and painting?

Tyler: Because that's the way it was done.

Lynn: Even back in the day that's the way it was done?

Tyler: That's, yep. So that is what to our absolute best guess what they were done. Another one of those skills that you have to learn that you don't get when you go to other places. It's like I was like getting some tips from like some other people who've done it before but then I'm like you know I like to look up stuff myself like I wonder if there's anybody online who like oil grains staining-- yeah, no. So I'm just going to have to like learn this like the old school way of just like trial and error, trial and error like oh that's not right, clean a bunch of it up and try it again just trying to get these colors to match.

Lynn: So once upon a time you and I were talking about your career with the Park Service and you said to me something that I loved. You said-- obviously there's pros and cons to being a seasonal employee. One of the things that you really loved about being seasonal and about moving around from park to park was that you felt in some ways like you were retiring in reverse. And I've never heard anyone say that before, I thought it was fantastic and I'd love for you to describe what that means to you.

Tyler: It's such a millennial thing to do right now. You have-- I mean I have places I've worked I have a friend of mine, he's backpacking through Nepal right now and I don't-- I saw yesterday somewhere in Europe. He travels a lot he's like worked in like Moose over by the Grand Tetons like working at ski resorts and plowing roads and stuff like that. I see people come to the parks and they can't walk like even like certain steps even like handicap accessible areas they're still weary about because physically they can't do it any-- they can't do it. And you know some of the hikes that I go on, beautiful places like that you my buddy Justin shared the story about like he was-- people would ask him like as he was working near a National Park what's the best place to go here and he tell him go through this mountain range -- I think it was Grand Teton -- go through this mountain range it's a blueberry field between two mountain ranges and you can just eat blueberries. One of the most beautiful places he's ever seen and-- but those people couldn't do it because like is it a concrete path all the way out there like no it's a dirt path like ah we can't do dirt because of our bodies. It's just even if we get to an age where we can like retire if we make it there. Can you financially do it? And then are you mentally there? I'm going to have Alzheimer's when I get old that just-- it's just I'm guaranteed it. And I'm like so am I going to be mentally capable of do-- you know of enjoying it or doing it and then you know physically too. Yeah, it's not good in the pocketbook, you're traveling a lot you don't know exactly where you're going everywhere, but it is fun and enjoyable. Like I said I've been you know Kansas in the middle of nowhere as Fort Larned is, it is a wonderful nice place to stay and hang out in the people here and the history and the stuff to see in the area. Then I've been to New York and I've been to Ohio and it's just. By the way may I add how amazing it is this podcast right here with the three of us, we are in the middle of Central Kansas and we all at one time were residents of the state of New York we all lived in New York.

Ben: That's true. Lynn: That's true.

Tyler: Yeah as I really wanted to point that out this podcast and I don't want it edited out because that I found is fascinating we all three at one time lived-- I for not nearly as long as some of you guys but yeah.

Ben: Not at the same time.

Tyler: No, no, not at the same time but at some point we were all living in the state of New York.

Lynn: Sure.

Ben: Yeah

Lynn: So for you retiring in reverse means you're still working.

Tyler: Yep.

Lynn: But you're getting to do some of the things that folks dream about doing when they retire. You get to explore the National Parks you get to visit different parts of this country and really get into the nooks and crannies of what's interesting and beautiful about it. While you're working and while you're young enough to really enjoy it in that way.

Tyler: Yeah and people don't realize you know well years ago me and some co-workers we took a camping trip out in the middle out in the middle of the prairie in the middle of nowhere. You're like oh no you got to have like this great scenery like the prairie in the areas out here is it's great scenery in itself until you're out here even outside of the cities really and just enjoying that. We camped out there and just did primitive camping out there we're like this is just nice and wonderful. And then I'm gone you know and camped in the Adirondack mountains up in New York up in the Catskills and everything. Oh just wonderful places been to Niagara Falls and then at the end of seasons I take, you know, I take a week to get back to Iowa where I usually hang out in my offseason. So I've go to all these different places and like the Great Smokey Mountains. If you see a place stop at it.

Lynn: I would say that's the other thing the three of us have in common is totally enjoying American history, Americana, the diversity of this country. That's why we like the National Parks too.

Ben: Absolutely. Now to finish us off the one question that we always ask. How can our listeners help?

Tyler: Just don't play around with the buildings, go in don't touch things when you're not supposed to. Just leave the park as you came in. The only people who should be making changes to it is me because that's my actual job. And there's actual ways I have to go we have we talked about some of the ways and we have compliances and everything to do-- it's doing my job takes a lot of-- you have to do it this way and that way and this way and that way and this way and like oh yeah it's more complicated with you know historic preservation. So yeah just leave the parks the way you come in but enjoy them and that's how you continue to enjoy it you know people who come back years later or decades later to a park they were at as a kid you know if we can preserve it to where it looks like that looks the same for them and the only changes that have been made have been made maybe for more visor access or more educational purposes that's wonderful. Just leave things the way they are and leave things the way they came in and then enjoy them while you're here because that's part of the job.

Ben: Absolutely.

Lynn: Awesome.

Ben: Well thank you for coming on and thank you for giving your two cents on what you do here and thank you.

Lynn: Thanks Tyler.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Well thank you very much for listening we definitely enjoyed interviewing Tyler and we hope you enjoyed listening to it as well. Be sure to leave us a rating and review also be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter and check out our website we have a lot of great resources there for you.

Lynn: And also if you're looking for another hidden gem of the Midwest and the National Park Sites we're going to encourage you to follow along with Herbert Hoover National Historic Site's Facebook page, any social media, their website definitely a hidden gem that I'm sure my husband and I will be checking out after hearing Tyler talk about it. It sounds pretty wonderful.

Ben: It does! Yeah, so thank you again for taking a listen.

Lynn: We will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Host: Ben Long Co-host: Lynn King Guest: Tyler Blind Description: As the Fort's Carpenter/Historic Preservationist, Tyler Blind not only sees firsthand the repairs that need to be done to the Fort's historic structures, but he's also one of those making the repairs. In this episode, Tyler discusses historic preservation techniques and their importance to historic preservation and the importance of keeping what's here, here.

November 4, 2023

3. Fort Larned's Present (Part 1)

Transcript

Transcript

[Footsteps intro music plays]

Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Historic Site Podcast. This season we're taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today we're looking at part one of Fort Larned's present. I'm your host Ranger Ben and I'm joined by our volunteer Jeff. How's it going today?

Jeff Weisbeck: It's good. How you doing Ben?

Ben: Doing well! So as we get started why don't you to tell us a little bit about yourself, what drew you to Fort Larned, that kind of thing.

Jeff: Yeah so my name is Jeff Weisbeck my wife and I are long-term residents living on site in our RV. And this is, you know, we've always been National Park enthusiasts and, you know, like many people we visit the park and, you know, we feel great if we have the ability to spend a day and blessed if we have the ability to spend two. And we looked at this volunteering for a few months is a way to really dig deeper and really get to understand a site that was very new to us. We're from Buffalo, New York. Kansas is very new somehow I missed a whole bunch about the 1860s to the 1880s when I went to school. We certainly covered a ton on the Civil War, but nothing relevant to the Santa Fe Trail or what was truly going on out here. So it's been fascinating to live on site, see all the beauty that Kansas has to offer, and really have the opportunity to dig deeper into what makes Fort Larned so special. And that includes not only, you know, the history of the fort but also the people who work here.

Ben: Absolutely! I mean we are a National Park so there was, I know some of the reasons, but there's obviously a reason that Congress says this is important for us to preserve -- use federal monies to preserve. So it is fun to be able to dig deeper and to find that reason and sometimes it does take a little bit of time to get that.

Jeff: Absolutely! And I tell you, we've done a lot of learning from the staff on site, but it seems like daily a visitor comes in that's going to talk about why the fort is special to them. And they will be focusing on maybe one of the rifled muskets that will be used or some people will come in and they'll be a fan of a TV show and they've have always loved the reference to Fort Larned in that TV show and they'll come in explaining how important that is. Every day is something different and we learn something with the visitors each time.

Ben: Yeah, and that's a wonderful part of working here and like you said learning a lot from the staff and today we're interviewing Facilities Manager Bill Chapman. So he oversees the day-to-day operations, be it mowing, historic preservation, you name it. So it's really cool to hear from him and hear just really all that goes into his job. I know he's always busy, so it's kind of cool to get a window into just the nitty-gritty of what he's busy with and the challenges and the unique challenges that come with his position and his team.

Jeff: Yeah, to me I did not have an appreciation how he prioritized his work and it was really interesting to learn that it all started with the mission statement of the park and then the prioritization of the different buildings and structures on the park. And that helped guide his decision of where to make his daily and his monthly-- like where to put his resources. So makes complete sense I just had no idea that it was it was structured that way so that was that was really interesting to learn about.

Ben: Yeah, no it was a lot of fun interviewing him and we hope you enjoy taking a listen. So here you go!

[Whoosh}

Ben: Alright so welcome! How's it going today?

Bill Chapman: Going well.

Ben: All right so as we get started as with all of our interviews here, go ahead and get started with your name, title, and then we'll kick it off from there.

Bill: Bill Chapman, Supervisory Facility Operation Specialist is the new title for Facility Manager.

Ben: Alright and so you sort of handle what could be called the maintenance side of things?

Bill: Yeah. The facility operational side-- maintenance.

Ben: When did your career in the Park service start? Because I know it's--

Bill: April of 90. 1990, yeah.

Ben: And that started at Cape Hatteras National Seashore, didn't it?

Bill: Yes it did.

Ben: Alright, what was your job there?

Bill: Preservation Carpenter on the Bodie Island Restoration Project-- Rehabilitation Project, excuse me.

Ben: That was one thing that was kind of funny coming here from Cape Hatteras myself, finding out that you worked there and worked at the light station that I worked at too that was kind of funny. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey through the Park Service what other parks you might have worked at and all that.

Bill: Well I was with the Cape Hatteras there I also did Hurricane Recovery for Hugo and St Crois Christian Haven National Historic Site, rebuilt the housing for the government there. Then I went on detail down in for Dry Tortugas or Fort Jefferson when Andrew came through then spent the next seven months rebuilding the three South Florida Park Units before becoming an employee of the flamingo District of Everglades National Park. Then worked that till '96 when I got permanent went from a Maintenance Mechanic to a boat operator servicing the backcountry camping sites. Then in the winter time when it was our-- excuse me summertime it was a tractor operator job mowing the roadside around the 55 miles from Flamingo to the Homestead turn around and drive back mowing grass. Alot of windshield time. From there to Historic Preservation Training out of Frederick Maryland-- actually out of Williamsport the last people to work in Williamsport when it was called Williamsport Training Center versus Historic Preservation Training Center. Then we became Historic Preservation Training Center out of Frederick, Maryland out of Monocacy Battlefield. Worked for them for 5 and half years, traveled the country doing different projects for different not just park service but Forest Service, local county governments, historic societies, and stuff like that.

Ben: Do you have a count on how many different parks and sites you worked at when you were with preservation there?

Bill: Seven Parks, three Forest, one agricultural research service, and two private-- and two county owned sites.

Ben: Wow, that's awesome. Now we have-- as we're recording this we have a Historic Preservation Training Center working on one of our buildings here too.

Bill: They're under Historic Preservation Training Center. They're actually referred to as a Maintenance Action Team. A MAT team. They're GOA funded, they were set up just to handle GOA projects. And that's the Great American Outdoor Act is abbreviated as GOA and that's what they're doing, they're trying to do a project in every Midwest Region Park, we just happen to have three of them-- four of them excuse me. We did one last year, but we have four projects with them.

Ben: Yeah it's good to see that getting done. Now after what was Williamsport Preservation Center, now Historic

Bill: Preservation Training Center

Ben: Where did you go after that?

Bill: Here to Fort Larned back in '02 and been here since.

Ben: What I guess encouraged you to make the switch from Historic Preservation to Facilities Manager.

Bill: Simple: income. Originally started out as is just trying to you know advance the career. Stayed here longer than I wanted, but--

Ben: We're glad to have you and have you here and have you overseeing the everything that goes on here on the Facility side of things.

Jeff: Bill one of the things that I've seen is that the people work here are skilled in so many different ways and clearly there's many options of what you could be doing. So I'm curious to learn a bit about why you started working for the Parks when there were so many options out there.

Bill: I actually was building hotels and condominiums on the Outer Banks. We had a market dry up in the late 80s-- '88/'89 range. I was self-employed and the only thing I can do is go apply for a job and the only job open at the time was a carpenter position at Cape Hatteras which I ended up with and thought it was pretty cool getting paid on rainy days versus not being paid on rainy days.

Jeff: Perfect!

Bill: Stayed with it.

Jeff: One of the things that that I've noticed here is the weather is very extreme and there's times when the wind is blowing for days on end, then it'll get very cold, and then it'll get very hot. I was kind of wondering how Mother Nature makes your job here at Fort Larned harder.

Bill: We are experiencing more damage due to heavier extreme events. We are suffering, one year we had had over 175 window panes broken out with a hail storm. Our delineation handrail out front of the Officers' Quarters is a replacement item that was a reconstructed item that has already been replaced once because of so much hell damage that it was the wood would no longer hold the paint. As soon as you painted it start popping. Constant wind damage damaging the fences, pushing on them, leaning on them, a lot of wind load on things. Just increased maintenance on things.

Jeff: Yeah and I also noticed that you know one of the very unique and nice things about this fort is so many of the buildings are open. People can go in and take a look around, but that also means that whatever is out on the Prairie is going to blow into the--

Bill: The operational side of Maintenance too, the cleaning and stuff is constantly it's hard to keep it up.

Jeff: Yeah it's definitely a challenge. I look at I look around the fort and I see the buildings, but purposely what's hidden is all the things that go into maintaining and operating the fort and those are things that support the visitor experience but they want to be hidden from view in certain ways so it doesn't distract from the historic nature of the fort. Could you tell us uh what type of services you and your team provide for the Fort?

Bill: Starting off with the operational safety side of things we provide three potable water systems, drinkable water for two different locations for public transit. We do have a third water system that is Park Service only that is guest and employees or employees basically, but we maintain those Water Systems we have infrastructure of Waste Systems in seven different septic systems in the park, Electrical distribution and Electrical Transformer Vaults hidden inside buildings. Water Treatment Plants are hidden inside some of the historic structures as well. Storage. Then we have Ground Maintenance as operational, Custodial Operational, then regular Building Maintenance just trying to keep things, corrective maintenance along with seeking soft funding for projects for roofing, item items big ticket that our regular annual budget cannot handle.

Jeff: Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, it's amazing. I had to start thinking about it, of all the things that are here to make it very comfortable for the visitor that we're not here back in the 1860s to 1880s, so that's amazing. Also the work that you and your team are doing on the reconstructions is really something, right? This this Fort is amazing. Can you tell us about perhaps some of the funny or surprising things you may have found as you're doing some of the work here?

Bill: Probably the most interesting thing is when we were doing the rehabilitation on the North Officers' Quarters we did expose foundation for tuck pointing the foundation stem wall and finding the builder's marks for each window location on the stones that are below grade.

Jeff: Wow, okay!

Bill: It's probably one of the nicest things finding so far. One of the other projects we were doing with the Historic Preservation Training back in '05-- 2005 range was the-- we found a stone signed pre stone Fort time-frame. The Juan de Jesus stone signed in 1859 I believe and we didn't start construction till 1865 on the stone buildings.

Jeff: Wow! Okay, so maybe perhaps one of the first stone cut?

Bill: Some were graffiti, probably somewhere and then just picked up off the field stone and put in place or an earlier mason-- the story is unknown there.

Jeff: Oh wow!

Ben: And that that was on the work to rehabilitate the north side of the Old Commissary, right? HS-5?

Bill: Putting-- the entire building has a new foundation under it not just the north side so yeah. It was in one of the tear down panels of the stone walls on the north that we found that stone.

Ben: And that was one of the first sandstone buildings to be constructed.

Bill: Up to the gun belt and we pulled off construction went to the Blockhouse or what referred to is HS-10.

Ben: Now for our listeners hearing some of these numbers there are, in the Park Service, there's numbers for each of the buildings and so when you're talking for doing projects and things like that instead of maybe saying Old Commissary or Post Commander Quarters, it's HS-5 or HS-8 or anything like that. Even the flag pole has a historic structure designation too.

Bill: Yes. Also historic building designation as well okay you have an HS and HB numbers HBs where we replace with HSs. But it's still in the record somewhere as an HB.

Ben: Yeah I've seen both of those in yeah in different documentation.

Bill: And that's standing for historic structure.

Jeff: Great! Bill you work with a team out here that's doing maintenance. Could you tell us a little bit about the different skills that you have on your team?

Bill: Currently I have a Maintenance Mechanic that is geared towards the infrastructure side which is plumbing, electrical, HVAC, with light duty and carpentry and painting. Then we have a Water System Operator because we have the three water systems and he has backup for grounds and that's grass cutting, shoveling snow, that kind of activities and then he also worked underneath a former Maintenance Mechanic so he knows pretty much the alarm system so he also serves as a technician on repairing alarm systems. Then I have a Custodial part-time that does nothing but cleaning. And then right now I have two-- a Carpenter temporary for doing some carpentry work on projects and a Carpenter-- excuse me a Maintenance Worker that's basically that assistant for that Carpenter. And they're working and they've been here about a year almost year and a half now. They've done window works on the South Officers' Quarters or HS-7, they've done the new roof on the Blockhouse, HS-10, they've done new boards in the faux tunnel of the Blockhouse, tuck pointed the Blockhouse and did the demo work in the Commanding Officer Building for architectural research coming up later this-- beginning of November. Second week in November we'll have Architects back to do planning for the restoration of the interior surfaces.

Jeff: This site is also open seven days a week and I've noticed that your team is very flexible of what they do and they're there to do whatever it takes because different things pop up on day-to-day. And there's a lot of cross coverage which is really neat. Maybe you could tell us about something your team accomplished that made you exceptionally proud of them.

Bill: Showing up every day is a good accomplishment after the frustration of the day before. I just can't limit it to one, I mean I'm proud of all their accomplishments that these guys do. I mean, we put all brand new sinks and photo sensors inside the bathrooms make bringing them up to more modern versus an old kick style flushometer to censored flushometer so people weren't having to hunt all over the restroom to where to flush the toilet because, you know, most people weren't used to a foot activated one. Water conservation activities that we've done over the years, replaced the gravel parking lot for the what the park had for 50 years it was a gravel parking lot gave them a paved road, paved parking lot, tore out a bridge that had a million dollars worth of damage to it and replaced it with a pedestrian bridge at a new location. Every building's been re-roofed some type of interior your work done to it as well the 10 structures. These guys have been amazing.

Jeff: Yeah, for the listeners my wife and I live on site at an RV pad at the Maintenance Facility and we were talking that from day one we felt so welcome there and people were there to help us and the questions that you may have as you're living in a new area or setting up in a new area, everybody was really eager to point us in the right direction or assist us. So we immediately felt very welcomed by you and your team when we were on site which was really great.

Ben: One question that that I have is in an ideal world, with the buildings that we have in order to keep them as they are today, we just sort of close this off and not let anyone use it, not let anyone inside kind of thing so how do you, as someone who's in charge of the maintenance that's done on these buildings, how do you sort of strike that balance between visitor enjoyment and preservation? With people using it, with people going inside, things like that you get the wear and tear and I know with being a National Park Service site which is wonderful it is our purpose to present this to the public. But from an, I guess, almost an expense standpoint it's more expensive to have these buildings open to show them to the public so--

Bill: Every building we bring online and open up is costly, yes. But the enjoyment for the visitor is a tangible history. If you can't touch it, smell it, play with it, it doesn't exist in their minds. To me to me that cost is worth it.

Jeff: Kind of following that train of thought is there a part of the fort that isn't here now that you'd like to see reconstructed.

Bill: Operationally, no. I don't want to see any more new buildings coming online. Because without a financial support behind it.

Jeff: Okay. Let's say that you had the budget to support something new, is there anything that you would like to see added?

Bill: A more modern Visitor Center office area and get the operational side of out of it-- the historic structure. And that doesn't have to be a reconstructed former military site or anything, it could be a new building and a new location.

Jeff: Okay, so a new Visitor's building and then return the barracks to its original--

Bill: It would probably still be adaptive use, it may be the Field Rangers Office it may be where the volunteers' house, you know, clothing and stuff will be done versus other buildings that they're currently in. It would not be a total loss of that resource to the public, because the museum is designed to fit inside that room.

Ben: And for those who are listening and haven't visited the fort right now our Visitor Center and offices are in what was one of the original Barracks duplex, yeah. So it housed two companies of Infantry but now it houses our Museum and our theater and all that too. I know there has been talks in the past of adding a building for that purpose of visitor contact and things like that, maybe across the bridge.

Bill: Across the bridge, a small contact station across the bridge so that there-- that first introduction would be great versus the long walk from the bridge to the Visitor Center. Which is part of the relocation of the Bridge Project where we took the bridge that was damaged heavily that was right beside the Visitor Center and relocated to where the military actually had a bridge at that was more an accurate site orientation compared to the 1964 highway bridge.

Ben: And now it looks like it's a historic wooden bridge versus the concrete bridge that used to be there. Although it is built to withstand emergency vehicles and things like that too, right?

Bill: Yeah, it has a 10- ton capacity to run across it.

Ben: Was there any special challenges that came with ensuring that that was within the abilities of the bridge?

Bill: No real special challenges at all. I mean design took it with our demands to make sure we still had that access that gives us two means of emergency vehicle access to the park. One from the West one from over the bridge. So if something happens we got some-- another way to get in. Probably the biggest thing had probably changed the elevation of the parking lot out front. We had to raise that grade probably 3 to 4 feet off the existing grade to be able to make a less of an incline for accessibility to go over the height of the pedestrian bridge that was required.

Ben: I didn't realize it had to be built up that much. I guess that makes sense because if you look at the edge of the parking lot it does kind of drop off a little bit.

Bill: And we hid it well.

Ben: Yeah, very well! With the tall grasses and things like that that we have around there too that that helps as well. Have you been involved in any of the reintroduction of the native grasses that have been in that area as well?

Bill: Minor involvement, but yes.

Ben: Because I know we've been trying to get that back to more native plants less invasive ones.

Bill: Right, actually a majority of the work was done as part of as an additive feature to the road work the 4H-- the Federal Highway Federal Land category 4 funding allows for that type of work. That external, not just the road prism and the road surface, they allow for that greater picture of managing the landscapes, doing whatever signage and stuff like that, gates that kind of stuff would be in the 4H and in the four, we call it FLIP, in the category 4 FLIP funding. That's what did most of it, so it was Federal Highways did a lot of it with our Design Center out of Denver. It was a-- their project, we managed a little bit with input but, it was a Federal Highway Project actually Highway Administration Project.

Ben: And that's another thing too within your purview is, and within your team is yeah, partnerships and maintaining that too, and mowing it.

Jeff: One thing that I had heard and maybe you can comment on is that the walkways under the porches were actually raised slightly. We were talking about the parking lot being raised to improve accessibility. I'd also heard from someone I believe that the porches were raised up to provide better accessibility. Can you talk a little bit about that discussion, how that went on, and how that solution was obtained?

Bill: The discussion is registered-- excuse me Public Law so there was really no discussion. We need to we were altering things so when we alter things we had to come in compliant with modern laws. So at that time we had to come in compliant with the American Barriers Act or Architecture Barrier Act part of the ADA. Which meant less than a half inch incline over top of a threshold.

Jeff: Okay. Yeah, looking at the porches it blends so well it had to be pointed out to me that there was a difference.

Bill: Basically 5 and a half inches taller. What it was is a vertical 2x6 put up on top of the-- well realize that underneath of that was a concrete slab from the 1974 rehabilitations of the forts. There's a wood framework sitting on top of a concrete slab with the wood deck on top of that.

Jeff: Understood. Alright.

Ben: And that's the-- we're talking about the porches right in front of the barracks.

Bill: The barracks in a hospital yeah.

Ben: So that was-- so historically that would have been a step down out of that-- out of those front doors.

Bill: We've also done it to the North and South Officers' Quarters rear porches with approach ramps of the natural pavement.

Ben: Yeah, and those along the South Officers' Quarters were just added not too long ago, right?

Bill: Two-- about two and a half years ago or two years ago and we'll be doing the same thing to this building as well, to the Commanding Officer's building too, accessing from the rear.

Ben: Yeah, no, there's by my count what one-- only one of our historic structures that isn't handicap accessible?

Bill: At this time, yep.

Ben: Are there any plans in the future for that building which would be the New Commissary or HS-4.

Bill: Nothing hard copy, just discussions going on at this point.

Ben: Yeah, because it is fairly limited. I mean you have with Officer Quarters you got front and back doors with the Barracks you don't have that much of a difference to make up but with that you got a few steps up there to get up to the floor level, so I can see how that would be a big challenge to get that within ADA compliance.

Jeff: We've been talking about so many things that you and your team are responsible for. How do you go about prioritizing tasks for yourself and your team on a daily basis?

Bill: We have a lovely thing in the Park Service called Asset Management Process where we already set a priority to our assets, which are our buildings. We rank them from the highest to the lowest. The work that needs to be done will always go to the highest assess first, and with an acceptable budget that we have at the time. So if we have a faucet leaking in the Visitor Center that's a higher priority asset than if the faucet was leaking in the curatorial room of Mike's. Because the Visitor Center is a higher priority than the New Commissary.

Jeff: That is so interesting. I never thought about that yeah so do the priorities of the buildings ever change with time?

Bill: No.

Jeff: No, they're set.

Bill: They're pretty much set unless the mission changes of the Park Service which is established by enabling legislation. So pretty much not going to change.

Jeff: Okay, so you take your mission statement for the park and that leads to your priority on the buildings and that leads to your tasking--

Bill: You incorporate visitor use, visitors importance. you know what would satisfy the visitor, employee satisfaction as well and need a place to work don't want to be having these people working outside in the-- all the weather yeah trying to run a computer that can't be wet you know that kind of stuff. So that's why these buildings get the asset priority that they get.

Jeff: I had no idea that's fascinating.

Ben: So say if like if there was something to be done on say the Shops or HS-3 that was on the docket for the day before but overnight something happened to the Visitor Center HS-1.

Bill: It gets pushed back and if it gets pushed back the entire year then I write it up into a project into the next year's

Ben: Okay.

Bill: That's how I look at it if I can't get to it, it needs to be a project. Because I can't if-- there's two reasons why I can't get to it: money and time. If I don't have the time, it's better for a contractor to do the work, if I don't have the money, it's better to ask the soft funding projects to fund it for us.

Ben: Gotcha. Now where does-- where do projects lie on that?

Bill: Most of the projects are things that we could not do in house to begin with, so that's why they ended up in the projects. One either financially or asset priorities. A lot of our projects will be geared towards the lower priority assets sometimes. Like we have a-- rebuilding all the fencing around here even though we just did a contract for painting them this year, our funding cycle is 5 years out, so in about 4 and a half years they'll be eligible-- their project that was written last year is to replace all the fencing. And as you notice there's a lot of loose boards, a lot of bowing of the fence row, a lot of you know repair damage from windstorms where we've had had to repair sections of the fencing. But it's such a low priority it's not one that I don't like-- I only do when I have the available time because it's a low cost, the fence itself because it's a lot of time the repairs are replacing it with the same wood we just take down adding one new member or something. So the cost is pretty low, it's just the time on that one.

Ben: Now we had a windstorm come through was it December 2021 that knocked down quite a few fences and I know we were working for quite a while to get those back up.

Bill: Right. And as most of you as you saw that process, it was when time permitted fence work was done. We went and did other stuff at a higher priority then we went back to fencing.

Ben: Now with a lot of these things I know there's sort of like a lifespan with shingles on the roofs and fences and things like that. So can you sort of like look forward and see oh this is when it was--

Bill: Yeah, that's part of my project funding to or writing up project-- or what we refer to as cycling maintenance is life cycling things out. Last year we-- or two years ago we replaced the chiller because it was life cycling out plus it was also failing on us. We replaced the heater because it failed but it was within a year or two of being life cycled out anyway.

Ben: So you can sort of, because of the records that we have sort of look forward to--

Bill: Because of that the program that we use the Asset Management Process out we put into dates of when we put the equipment in so we know what industrial standard life cycle is, go from there. It actually has replacement dates in that thing so that you can replace what date you can start writing a project for what date it needs to be replaced.

Ben: Now how long does that-- would you say between when a project is written up as a project to when it's actually completed? I know there's a great variance in time there but what would you say is the average time?

Bill: Four years between when you write up to when you're actually funded the project and then it's about a year for execution. If there's planning and design with an architect or an engineer is within two years of execution after being funded. One year for planning one design and then the next is execution of the construction.

Ben: With keeping the records it's nice to see oh I have this much time before it's going to be actually fixed so I should start writing these projects up now. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes.

Bill: Yep.

Jeff: We've been talking a lot about the nuts and bolts and finances of your position I was wondering if we could turn things to the softer side again and if you were going to give your friends or family a tour of this fort what would be the favorite thing to show them and what would you tell them about it?

Bill: The tunnel is always a unique thing to show somebody. It is it is one of the nicest things to pop in and show. Though I think probably the second forge in the Blacksmith would probably be my favorite one to show. It's one that we were able to reconstruct from evidence of ghost lines on the existing interior wall surface to show where the chimney was at. The Farm Period didn't really alter the Blacksmith Shop that much they added on to the south side of it but they did not tear into the inside that much so we had some good evidence of where the protrusion of the chimney through the roof line was at with some at-- where they took the chimney out they added small boards in, back in, so they gave you that pretty much there. And the fact that we were able to build that have that and use first versus continuously having to rebuild or reuse the original forge that sort of like George Washington ax for chopping down the cherry tree. Yes, it's the original forge but it's been rebuilt at least three times since Park Service has had this property and we don't know how many times it was rebuilt from the Fort Period during the Farm Period. So it could be that has a new ax head it has a new handle it has a new wedge, you know right but still it's still George Washington's hatchet.

Jeff: To the to the visitor is very difficult to tell what is the original and what is the new and also the reconstructed one is absolutely an operational forge that's used routinely with visitors. So yeah, that's amazing, I like that.

Bill: And it's actually had a rebuilt table on it now since it was reconstructed and less than 10 years ago okay we had some freeze/thaw cycles on our mortar and it blew the stones apart.

Ben: There was there was some work done on that just last year too, wasn't there?

Bill: That's what I mean. It was the work table was rebuilt on the forge.

Jeff: So what advice would you have for someone who's interested in becoming a Facilities Manager at a park?

Bill: Be malleable as possible.

Jeff: Flexibility!

Bill: Because you will be juggling your jobs not only just focusing on one thing one moment I mean one day it might just being able to focus for a few minutes before you have to change your focus to another thing.

Ben: And I think that goes for anyone in the federal service but definitely someone who's managing all these different projects and just day-to-day operations as well. So I mean like during the summer we got mowing going on and but then that's also the season for painting but that's also the season for everything else. So doesn't ever slow down it seems like.

Bill: No it doesn't.

Jeff: Terrific! I think I have one more question for you and it's a bit of an oddball one, so bear with me. Is there any question you wished I asked you that I hadn't, and how would have you answered that?

Bill: You partially asked it in the last one. What was the facility-- the one condition one feature that you'd want to be but realize that the small park units that we have in the service, many positions have a lot of collateral duties that are assigned to it with the expectation that collateral duties are about 20% of your time. This facility position has four collateral duties assigned with it too. Plus two parks.

Jeff: Alright, so the math adds up to a different number other than 100. I gotcha.

Bill: So the ability to maintain to focus, you know, that I think is the hardest thing to do in this job is maintaining the focus. Not only being malleable to adjust to situations that are coming up but trying to maintain focus, because that is constantly changing on you.

Ben: And now you briefly mentioned it but you not only manage the facilities for here at Fort Larned but you manage it for Nicodemus as well, right?

Bill: Nicodemus National Historic Site as well.

Ben: Which also comes with its own set of challenges.

Bill: Uniqueness! It's an untraditional park. The resources up there are not owned-- the resources identified in the enabling legislation, only one is owned by the National Park Service. The other ones are all privately held either operated through easements or through just has providing assistance while you watch the decay of a structure.

Ben: And unfortunately, we've seen some of that happen this year. So maybe we'll have to pick your brain sometime about the challenges in Nicodemus. But for the meantime or in the meantime I should say for those listening whether they're local or I should say in the first part if someone's local what are some ways they can help out and if they're not so local are there ways they can help out as well?

Bill: If they wish to volunteer we can always use volunteers in the Maintenance Fields. The operational side, the mowing, the snow removal, that kind of stuff. But a lot of painting. We have a lot of painting that we can always use help with we're always willing to develop skills that somebody's wanting to learn skills as well. I mean we've in the past we've had four different Traditional Trades Apprentice Program applicants here. We've also had seasonal applicants that were under skilled that learned skills before they moved on. Those are things, we don't mind training you know sharing our education and our experiences with other people to meet the needs of the park or the resource.

Ben: I've experienced firsthand a couple years ago and need to help out painting, painting a couple structures and all that and I can definitely attest that there's a lot to be done all the time.

Bill: And again as we just talking about priority assets the stuff that you worked on were the lower priorities and as you saw they weren't addressed as often.

Ben: But they're still-- I mean they're still on that list still need to be addressed and still need to be taken care of. So, what are some ways that folks who aren't so local-- what are some ways they can help out?

Bill: When they come to visit, don't graffiti. Don't make the worst-- the job harder.

Ben: There you go. Yeah, not only--

Bill: Put your trash in your trash can, you know.

Ben: Do your part to help.

Bill: Do your part to help.

Ben: Yeah, not only is graffitiing-- you get a hefty fine but you're also permanently damaging the buildings and all that. Well we thank you for coming on and sharing a little bit about what you do and giving us some-- giving us and giving our listeners some insight and so we thank you!

Bill: You're welcome!

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright, well we hope you enjoyed that interview, I certainly did! If you aren't already following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter go ahead and follow us there also check out our website, has a lot of great resources for you.

Jeff: Also, Cape Hatteras National Seashore was mentioned in this interview please go and follow them as well they have amazing content and certainly a bunch to learn there as well.

Ben: Thank you again for taking a listen!

Jeff: And we will see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast!

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Host: Ben Long Co-host: Jeff Weisbeck Guest: Bill Chapman Description: As Facilities Manager, Bill Chapman oversees his team as they maintain the buildings and grounds of Fort Larned NHS. In this episode we take a look at the challenges that come with being Facilities Manager as well as the challenges of keeping what's here at Fort Larned, here.

October 7, 2023

2. Fort Larned's Past (Part 2)

Transcript

Transcript

[Footsteps theme music and sounds of the fort play]

Ben Long: Welcome to Footsteps The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast. This season we're taking a look at Fort Larned's past present and future and this is part two on Fort Larned past. I'm your host Ranger Ben and co-hosting with me today is our volunteer Elizabeth. How's it going?

Elizabeth: It's going good. It's a little hot.

Ben: A little hot, yeah. We're recording this in September and we are eagerly awaiting the fall weather that is no doubt coming as this episode airs. As we get started I why don't you to tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe what got you interested in doing stuff here at the Fort.

Elizabeth: Well my mom is the secretary treasurer of the Fort Larned Old Guard and she came out to the Mess and Muster event and I got to see the other lady volunteers dressed up in their period clothing and the men were in their uniforms from the period. And I've always kind of wanted to I guess dress up! The little girl inside of me just wants to dress up all the time. I used to see the ladies at Dodge at Boot Hill they just step in their clothing for Boot Hill and then we went to Bent's Fort when I was like 11. And there were a couple lady volunteers there and that's just something I've kind of always been interested in but never really realized I could partake in. And so when I told George I was like "How do I get into this?" I was like "How do I do this?" And George was like "Well here!" and he handed me a volunteer packet and now I'm here. And now I am a school teacher and sometimes a lady of leisure in officers' row.

Ben: It's great having you out and being able to interpret the post school and you always have some fun activities for the kids over there too.

Elizabeth: Try to keep it exciting try to make it come alive for the visitors.

Ben: Absolutely! Now as we get into the episode, today's guest is a Museum Technician Mike Seymour who's been working out here for quite a while and working with our artifacts. So it was interesting looking at his perspective as we dive deeper into Fort Larned's past and into these items that help tell the story. Personally one of my favorite parts and always one of my favorite parts of his job is taking a look at some of the original artifacts and these things that have so much age to them but are still preserved and still here thanks to a lot of the work that he does.

Elizabeth: Yeah, he brought in some artifacts and that was that was really cool to see the different surgical tools and the toys that some of the kids could have used on the fort.

Ben: It was a great interview I had a great time and we hope you also enjoy the episode, so here you go!

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright so welcome Mike.

Mike Seymour: Thank you for having me!

Ben: Glad to have you on. So as we get started why don't you tell us your title, how long you've worked at the park, any other parks you might have worked at.

Mike: Alright, I have only worked at this park. I came here as a volunteer in 1996. Basically got a seasonal job in 2000 through various step and grade changes up until-- it stayed the same up until about 2019 when I got the job title of Museum Technician. Although I had been doing the work from 2000 to 2019 through some problems with HR they wanted me to either get my PD changed or stop doing Museum work. So we talked it over with management here and they said well we don't want to lose you as doing the museum work so we will change your PD, and so here I am.

Ben: As I've worked here since 2019 when your PD changed, it's been wonderful to help you out in in some cases and sort of see behind that curtain and see what your work is and all that goes into it. Fun to see how these artifacts that you deal with kind of help tell the story of the fort.

Mike: Yeah, we have a lot of stuff here, a lot of stuff.

Ben: And even more stuff in the regional collection too, right?

Mike: Right. Yes, if an actual count would be about 216,000 plus. Now, 200,000 are at Region in storage up there, so my immediate challenge is inventories and cataloging. Don't do much de-accessioning but accessioning and cataloging and things like that. So I have about close to 12,000-13,000 items here of which about just under three thousand are on display throughout the park, in all the buildings.

Ben: Now for our listeners who haven't had a hand in museum work before what-- what is accessioning and de-accessioning

Mike: Well, accessioning is basically when you accession something you take ownership of that artifact. We get items that are donated, we get items that are transferred from other parks, we purchase items. So no matter how you uh acquire the item, if it hasn't been modified, if it hasn't been refinished -- which are two other categories that we have to consider -- the item is usually an original item is usually a accessioned which it goes into accession book and then cataloged into the into the catalog system or into the program the museum program that we have on computer here. De-accessioning is when you find something in there that was cataloged in error or it's out our scope of collections time frame. There are several other things that can possibly become a reason why you need to de-accession, but most of out we've found out that a lot of things back in the 1970s, the Park Service wanted everything cataloged. Meaning reproduction, period pieces, props, everything was to be cataloged. Well now they've realized that that was a big mistake, so we're one of the parks that still has a lot of these things that are items I should say that are still cataloged. So that's been one of my projects this year I finally have permission to de-accession some of the reproduction items and things like that but that. They are in the count of this 216,000 but they total about just over uh six hundred, right at 600. Gives you an idea. But yeah, de-accessioning is basically just getting rid of the stuff you, like I say, excess maybe it's a reproduction, maybe it's been refinished or repaired in some way, so it basically isn't original. But we can still use it, you know, it's still it still passes the 10-foot rule so to speak you know.

Ben: But it isn't one of those original artifacts that needs special attention.

Mike: Right. Now you can't do that with archeology. With archeology, everything is cataloged no matter what because basically when it comes out of the ground or-- if it comes out of the ground it's archeology, if it you find it on the surface, which maybe it worked to the surface which happens, it's a field find. Either way it's cataloged, you can't get around cataloging archeology. So if that's the class, again it gets cataloged.

Elizabeth: What's your favorite part of your role at Fort Larned?

Mike: My favorite part is basically it is: I have a challenge that we have a lot of volunteers and sometimes they take it upon themselves that "I'd like this item over here better than where they have it." Sometimes they move them and don't tell me and I get a little upset because I have to go find these things. Because you basically-- the original stuff may be mixed in with the non-original stuff but if it's cataloged you have to account for it that's the downside of it. But like I say taking care of, making sure everything is secure, making sure it's there.

Ben: And in helping you with inventories and things like that it gets very specific as to where that item is in the room.

Mike: Yes. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back but when I got here an item might say it's in the Commissary. Okay, we're in the Commissary? So the program allows you to elaborate and you know more fine-tune that location. When I also arrived here, nothing was photographed. In the past 6-7 years I've photographed over 12,000 items. And it makes it much easier when you say okay I've got two of these, now which one is it? So you go to the photograph and you can tell you know by the photograph that it's uh this one or that one.

Ben: A lot of the things we deal with are 150 plus years old, what goes into making sure that we'll have them for another 150 years and in the state that they're currently in?

Mike: Well, environment is the key. If you have a climate change especially humidity that changes for let's say five or ten percent overnight you're in trouble. You need to if the rooms don't have HVAC or air conditioning and heat and you can't really control them the best thing you can do then, like we have, is to slow it down. So the rooms are sealed, the museum rooms are sealed to where it may take 30 to 40 hours before let's say from fall or spring when temperatures can rise and humidities can rise and fall then basically it does it slows down the change in humidity and that's the key to keeping a certain artifacts you know preserved. And of course everything that you-- well I should say you should you can't handle a piece of textile like you would a piece of wood, you know. So basically there's certain criteria to take care and preserve textiles and certain things for metal, certain things for wood, certain things for ceramics. And of course I always say ceramics usually take care of themselves unless you drop and break them then then you've got troubles.

Ben: In an ideal world, you'd have all of these items in a sealed vault at a consistent temperature and humidity, so in your mind where is that line between preserving these things and presenting them?

Mike: Well the museum handbook says basically 55% is a point of no return for perfect preservation. Anything 55% or below is sufficient or more than sufficient. But we can't always achieve that, so basically it's we have hygrometers in every room and we monitor them quite frequently to see you know what is changing and then if we do detect the change we look at some of the more vulnerable artifacts to say or to see if they have been affected.

Ben: For those that might argue that say like a book should just stay in a vault so that we can make sure we keep it.

Mike: Well that can be a pretty controversial in the fact that you know you may want to see the book on display or something like that but if you can't control the humidity for that book or for any communication object basically you need to you need to get it out of display. Most of our stuff again will pass the 10-foot rule. It looks like a book or an old book you know from a distance but it's really not. Not to tell-- not to give away all the secrets but yeah you've got to think of the artifact. If it, you know, deteriorates and at a certain point, I know you work with leather you know the same thing. Once you're down below 28 percent of moisture content in leather it's done there's nothing you can do to bring it back and it's just gonna dry up and crack.

Ben: The key is to get it before you get to that point.

Mike: Right, right. Yeah and do all you can to get it to a point where you can stabilize it so to speak. Firearms and such are handled with you know observation of rust and looking for and trying to get rid of live rust. We have several ways of doing that but you know of course once rust attacks metal, you may be able to make it look better but it'll leave a mark you know like a dark or discoloration. So once it's gone beyond that you're pretty much committed to taking care of what's left. So all you can do is check them over frequently and keep them with a light coat of oil so that they'll stay preserved or stay rust free for a long time.

Elizabeth: What's the most difficult item you've had to preserve?

Mike: Well, I think in the terms of a lot of work we have some original uniforms from officers that were in some Kansas volunteer units, we have Charles Larned, a cousin to the fort's namesake, we have his uniform from West Point. He was an instructor there after he left the Seventh Cavalry right after the Little Big Horn Battle in Montana. But I think the clothing, we have a lot of women's clothing The training for taking care of these are you know store them flat. But basically, store them as if they somebody's wearing them laying flat and the only way you can do that is take acid-free or non-lignin paper and roll them up and stuff them up the sleeves. You don't want a crease you don't want the weight of the garment to come down and put a crease in it because it weakens the fiber. We do that with quilts too. Any quilter will know that you got to refold these things frequently or at least once a year or so to preserve the fabric on a quilt.

Ben: What would you say is one of your favorite artifacts that we have here in our collection/

Mike: Well I was asked this question and I'm asked this question not frequent, but often and my favorite is a mailbox that was actually used here at the fort it was it's a mail routing box. When you open it up it still has little inked cubby holes so to speak. And they're marked with certain people like first sergeants, I say that plurally, they'll be a mark-- there was a label for buglers. Again it's an artifact that was here. Obviously when the fort closed it was part of the items that were auctioned off, evidently the Army thought they didn't need it. So it was auctioned off and a lumber yard here in Larned bought it and used it in their company business for years and years and somehow it got donated back to the fort. There some furniture that was basically belonged to a second Lieutenant that was here in the 1870s and through various circumstances it was donated back in the 1950s. So we have his furniture that was actually here when he was a serving officer here. When you have something with provenance, and you have something that has a story behind the provenance it's kind of neat to be able to know that story and be able to you know repeat it to-- for other people that might be interested.

Ben: Now that mailbox is on display in our Museum.

Mike: Yes it is.

Ben: Would that have been in the Adjutant's Office?

Mike: Yes it would have been in the Adjutant's Office. Some would call it post headquarters, a military man today would call it post headquarters, but back then the Adjutant's Office was-- meant the same thing basically. So yes, that's where it would have been and we just got it on display because we do have, as you both know, we do have our new Museum that just opened up in 2021. So this mailbox has been in storage for nearly 30, 25-30 years. It was an iconic piece that we all felt that needed to be in the museum when it was completed. And we were a little disappointed in the fact that the case wasn't made big enough to where you could open the door all the way and see the names of you know where the mail was supposed to be routed. But if you look at an angle you can see one or two of them.

Ben: And the artifacts that do have provenance as you were saying is really cool we have like you're saying not only the second Lieutenant's items, furniture and otherwise, but we also have a, thankfully through our friends group, we've been able to acquire a third infantry rifle and Captain Nolan's revolver too.

Mike: Yes, and we thank them so much that's-- those are very iconic especially Captain Nolan who was right from the get-go in charge or the CO or company commander of "A" Company, 10th Cavalry. His downfall was getting lost on the stake planes in Texas and quite a few horses and men suffered severely several of horses and men died, but he survived.

Elizabeth: So you talk about how many artifacts you have what is the strangest artifact?

Mike: I brought a couple over here and I'm not sure if anybody has ever heard of a tool called a trephine. Fort Larned is still at least by the late 1860s we're still practicing caveman medicine out here. I have a comment that I read or to repeat that I read, an author said the true gentlemen of the West were Army Surgeons. And I have to kind of believe that because in the Army you had to become a surgeon you had to pass a rigid test, whereas in the civilian world, if I wanted to become a doctor I could go to a diploma mill college and peek in the door say I was here here's your money give me my diploma and I'm out the door. And this happened quite a bit. But again the Military Surgeon had to pass a rigid test so I really believe they were the true gentleman of the West. But there were some surgeons that weren't always uh up to speed so to speak. For example phenol, carbolic acid that's been around since the 1830's, some surgeons embraced it, some surgeons says "I've never needed it before, why should I start now?" But one thing they all didn't have was x-rays. So if you've got a something in your abdomen that needs to come out you're going to probably be probed with either the doctor's fingers or you've got a tool called a sounder, which is a curved instrument that basically goes in and kind of acts like uh the old talking to talking to your friend through a couple of cans with a string in between. It will when it hits something solid and bone too but you if you know a bone's supposed to be there then it's a bone, but if it's not you're getting a sound through this steel or metal tool. It'll you know give you an indication of where it's at so you can start probing and see if you can get that out. Another thing I brought was a trephine. I think I already mentioned that. The trephine basically is to relieve pressure on the skull. It's actually a skull drill. I've seen pictures of skeletons or skulls that has had that operation performed on them and it's very scary. I mean the skull does not heal, the skull that that hole will be there forever. So to have that done was basically in my opinion a last resort because some of these holes in these skulls look like the size of a silver dollar or even a little bit bigger. And some of the locations it's like where do I go to find this problem? He's got pressure on the brain so I'll tap the top. Well that didn't get it, so I'll tap the side, I don't know how many-- I've only seen skulls with just one hole so I don't know how they knew where to put the hole but in any way shape or form it wasn't pleasant.

Ben: Could we see them?

Elizabeth: I'm excited.

Mike: There's the sounder. So that would go into go into a wound and just move around until-- and you can stick your ear you know here and hear a scrape or whatever you'll know that's where it's at. And the trephine. It's a wooden handle that comes off to fit in the surgeon's kit. But basically it's just a flat drill. A person that is a machinist, it would make him think of an inmill where it's just basically a drill with instead of having a point to it it's completely flat. But it's very very sharp, very sharp. It wouldn't take much to cut in scalp and get into bone.

Ben: How would you describe those

Elizabeth: They're definitely sharp. It feels like the teeth on a saw which is basically what it is.

Ben: And I mean that's meant to cut a-- basically a circle out of the skull, right?

Mike: Right.

Ben: And then the sounder almost looks like, in my mind it looks like two jalapeno peppers on a metal rod.

Mike: Yeah, they're curved just like a jalapeno pepper, you're right. That's-- I wouldn't have thought of that, but that's good.

Ben: Yeah, there was think of an account that I heard where a soldier got injured and a surgeon was with them out in the field and was digging around trying to find the projectile and he went back to it later because he couldn't find it initially and the soldier asked him "If you're going to fish around in there could you at least clip your fingernails first?" So having something like a sounder would definitely be a lot better even though by today's standards it's archaic.

Mike: Well like I say, if you don't sterilize it it's not much better than your fingers but maybe a little bit. But sterilizing, you know that's kind of the byproduct of a lot of 19th century problems basically. Let's-- for example in interpretation when somebody asked me "What was their favorite drink?" I usually say anything hot I don't care if it's a 110° out there, but coffee or hot tea as opposed to water, as opposed to lemon sugar, as opposed to cold tea, because they don't realize it but when they boil the coffee water they're taking care of cholera they eradicating cholera with the boiling of the water. It's a mindset thing in the fact that you know when I drink water or my friend drinks water he gets sick sometimes and sometimes he dies and sometimes very fast. I'll stick with hot because-- anything hot because that's one thing I can tell that when we all drink coffee we don't get sick, we don't die, that transposes to the food, it was always boiled except in the field it was fried in the field and boiled in the garrison-- at garrison.

Ben: Anything you'd like to add while we're on this topic of these interesting artifacts?

Elizabeth: It's just completely different compared to the instruments that doctors use today. I feel like a lot of doctors, if they could see some this stuff and see how procedures were done in this time period they would be appalled.

Mike: Yes they would.

Elizabeth: So you work with a lot of different weapons. The fort has-- it was an Army fort so there's a lot of weapons. How many weapons do you deal with?

Mike: Cataloged wise we have about 40. A lot of them were used here -- not physically, but I mean a lot of that style or type was used here that we have in the collection. As I think reported earlier or talked about earlier we do have a couple of "F" Company Third Infantry rifles that were actually marked as such. A little side note on this the Army or let's say the government, the Ordinance Department, didn't like you stamping anything. Stenciling was okay but stamping was not, they didn't like that, especially Springfield Armory. So how these certain companies got away they would have had to with company funds would have had to purchase that stamp and how they-- which is not a problem, but uh whether they were reprimanded or discouraged or said "No thank you we'll go ahead and stamp them anyway", how they got by with it we don't know but interesting little small tidbit of military Authority there.

Ben: It's almost like the "D"'s that are carved on the barracks from Company "D" of the Third Infantry.

Mike: Exactly. As defacing government property was an offense just like it is today. You carve your name at Fort Larned and you get to go to Hutchinson, Kansas to see a federal judge to assess your fine and it's not cheap.

Elizabeth: Do you have a favorite weapon not really, not really. You know, when you're taking care of all you try to give each one equal time and we do have one weapon I'd like to see out here that was used on as an experiment. The Army made about 1,018 of these weapons and they're called Ward-Burton and actually Fort Larned got 16 of them from what I gather, to pass around to the troops to see how they like it. The Ordinance Department did this quite regularly when a new weapon would come up. Part of the testing of it would be to test it in cold climate, test it in hot climate, you know and we actually got about 16 of them to pass amongst the Third Infantry to test. It would have been interesting what their evaluation was on it because the Army didn't adopt it. But I just brought that up because it is something we'd like to have but don't have. It'd be nice in the collection.

Ben: Over the years working with you it's been wonderful to hear your expertise on all things historic firearms.

Mike: I've been collecting Firearms myself since 1957.

Ben: Just a couple of years.

Mike: Yeah, just a couple of years. It's a fun hobby and it is getting very very expensive now. Certain weapons that can remember seeing at gun shows that were under $1,000 or are approaching $5,000, $7,000, $8,000.

Ben: Whether you're talking weapons or anything like that it's really an investment and that's what's wonderful that we're able to have these things that whether they have provenance to the fort or the fort's era, it is really cool to be able to have these and be able to present them and preserve them so that hopefully 150 years down the line, hopefully we're not the only ones that have something but in case we are.

Mike: Well you-- when you stop and look at what you know a museum does is uh basically I think they're all for the most part doing an excellent job because you just mentioned 100-- and will they be here for 150 years? Well they've been around for 150 sometimes 200 years and they're still in fairly, you know, decent shape as long as they don't deteriorate anymore, I see no problem. But, you know if you neglect them or don't take care of them they can't take care of themselves, so it's got up to you to basically you know observe and react to whatever's it's affliction may be.

Ben: And that's where you come in.

Mike: Well, we try.

Ben: And I'd say you do a fantastic job.

Mike: Well thanks.

Elizabeth: So there are a lot of soldiers on the fort. Are most of the artifacts from soldiers or?

Mike: Well I wish I could say yes, but this was a military fort for 19 years and a working cattle and horse ranch for nearly 80 years. So most of the stuff that we have in the collection, I'm kind of repeating myself, but most of the stuff in the collection is from the time period, but doesn't really have provenance. The things that we do know that were here when the fort was active are very few and far between. And that kind of spills over into the archeology end of it because the farm was after the fort so anything you find is going to be on top in when you dig down or when an archaeological dig is performed you're going to dig down and that's you're going to find all the stuff from the farm period first. Because I know one area that I was told was basically a dump for the farm period and it was basically right in the area where the block house is. So if you were to go over there you're going to probably find a lot of farm objects. And I said 216,000 objects I can pretty safely say 170,000 are archeology. And of that probably less than 10,000 maybe 15,000 are military objects.

Ben: A lot of them are animal bones aren't they?

Mike: Yeah, we have a lot of they-- the old settler store was turned into a-- that it was removed but the foundation for the basement was still there. And basically-- actually it wasn't the settler store it was a settler residence during the farm period when they would slaughter and butcher, a lot of the bones were just shoved over into the-- it was used as basically a dump for the for the carcasses and skeletons of cattle, sheep, chickens. We have a lot of bird bones and most of them are chicken.

Ben: But again that falls under the archeology and has to be cataloged.

Mike: Yeah we tried to cut a cut a corner. I remember when I first got here, two other rangers and I were doing backlog, Museum backlog. We had nearly 60,000 items that were on backlog so our job was to do as much as we could that summer. Lo and behold we got-- every three of us got everything done except about five or six thousand bones. They were in a museum type fiberglass barrel in storage our boss thought that-- which is which is perfectly legal, thought that we could since they were all in bags we could bag-- you know a catalog them by a bag. In other words weigh them and catalog them as just you know bovine or a bird or whatever. Until we three discovered that each and every bone had a field site number on it. Well that that took away the bag of bones and then we had to catalog every single individual bone. So it took a little longer.

Elizabeth: So I work in the schoolhouse when I do living history for events at fort and a lot of people come in and ask me questions about the women and children on the fort. Do you have a lot of artifacts that belong to women and children?

Mike: Yes. I mean I can't-- again I can't say that some of the clothing that we have we have a wedding dress which was basically donated I'm pretty sure it had no provenance to the fort but it is a good study item to you know let's check out hand stitching and the material itself. And then we have several other undergarments ladies undergarments that you know still are in pretty good shape. As far as children, we have quite a few toys. We don't know some of these toys could have been from the late 1800s when the fort had already closed and some of the children of the owners of the ranch you know we can't really date them, because the spread of the way toys were manufactured back then went a long ways. You know it covered a lot of time or period. Basically what I brought was some call it China I'm thinking more so of just basically ceramic but they're miniatures. There's a little dish with a broken section there's a pitcher that's probably about two inches high, has a chunk of it gone out of the main body. I also brought a doll's leg obviously broken off of a doll. And you can tell they're all pretty much made of the same material, some sort of ceramic. And I brought an original slate or chalkboard for writing maybe after 1866 the Army was forced or the rules and regulations stated that all forts will provide a school for children of the fort. Now an officer, maybe he thinks that his child could get a better education and it's perfectly okay for him to send that child back East for maybe a better education. But there were very few enlisted men out here that had children. The Army's a little more lax on this as the years go by so by the late 1870s it's been relaxed just a little bit. They still had to provide a school and this would have-- could have been in something used where I'm not sure the provenance of this I could through the museum program find out where it came from. I know the ceramic pitcher, plate, and doll's leg they're archeology. They came from here but we just aren't exactly sure what time and when they were you know-- I know when they were found but I just don't know what time and whether it was a child of the fort or again the ranch period. So that's a question that'll probably never get answered.

Ben: That's the tough thing that working with you and working with our artifact series on social media is sort of discerning whether it's Fort Era or Ranch Era for some of these things is very difficult.

Mike: If this was only a ranch we'd know. If this was only a military fort we'd know. But I can remember when we were doing the backlog, we ran across a watering bit and in archeology and it hadn't been cataloged yet. And it was the uh toggle type-- well actually no I should say it was a watering bit toggle and that dates Civil War. That was a big plus. We also found half a valve guide for a Ford tractor. So you know and that's probably 18 or I mean 1940s. So we could pretty well differentiate you know between the valve guide and the watering bit toggle. So that was pretty cut and dry there but a lot of times that you don't get that luxury.

Ben: For those listening and for those who might want to help out a little bit more what are some ways that those in the area might be able to help out say with volunteering or how can someone from a distance help out with some of the things you deal with?

Mike: Well a few years ago I think 2019 I knew a young man that was named Ben Long that came out here and the first thing that management had him do was help me do inventories. Now that is a lovely job. When you're trying to trying to account for 12,000 items, 12,000 plus items. And so we're always you know in need of a volunteer to come out and help with the inventory. The plus is you get to go into areas where you don't normally get to go. Like the vault for one thing. The vault has nearly about 9,000 items in it and they're not on display. So they're just sitting there in probably the best climate controlled room in the whole park. Yeah we could we always, you know aside from volunteering for soldiers or volunteering for school teachers or volunteering for cooks and laundresses and things like that, you know there's always-- for the type that doesn't really want to dress out we've always got room for you to inventory or something else with the Museum. So let us know!

Ben: And for those listening if you want to see some of the items that are in the vault, most of the items that are featured on our ArtiFact series on social media come from there. So a lot of those items and maybe we'll even feature some of the items we have here soon so you can see those a little better. But yeah, there's a lot in there and like you said they're in the most ideal situation so they can be preserved. And do we rotate some of those things in and out sometimes?

Mike: Well the go-to idea right now by Museum management is things-- they really want things on display to be reproduction so that we can remove the original. But that's hard to do because sometimes you just can't come up with a reproduction item that you maybe have on display. But I've tried to move most of the original items, original cataloged items, into the museum-- what we call the museum rooms which are rooms on display but they're sealed as opposed to living history rooms which are rooms that people, volunteers and staff can go in and give the visitor a slice of life of whatever they're portraying. An officer's wife, a school teacher, a surgeon, you know.

Ben: Well thanks for coming on, thanks for sharing your perspective and a bit of the work you do and thank you for the work you do and.

Mike: Thanks for having me come on board here and tell about it. I won't say it's a thankless job I mean I get thanked for a lot for various things. But it comes few and far between. But you know.

Ben: It's a behind the scenes kind of job

Mike: That's right that's well put, yeah.

Ben: Alright well thank you.

Mike: Thank you folks.

[Whoosh]

Ben: Alright well we hope you enjoyed listening to that episode we certainly had a blast interviewing Mike and hearing his perspective. If you don't already follow us on social media we are on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter and also be sure to check out our website, we have a lot of great resources on there. Also as mentioned in the episode our series on social media ArtiFact is where we feature a lot of the items that aren't on display and are preserved in the vault there so be sure to check that out.

Elizabeth: If you're already following us, check out Sand Creek Massacre National Historic Site. They have a lot of great content and they kind of share the same story as Fort Larned.

Ben: In their story there they cover the November 1864 Massacre by Chivington and his men. Very somber site but definitely important for our history. So we want to thank you again for listening be sure to leave us a review and we hope you have a wonderful day.

Elizabeth: We'll see you next time on Footsteps: The Fort Larned National Historic Site Podcast

[Footsteps outro music plays]

Guest: Mike Seymour Host: Ben Long Co-Host: Elizabeth Rasmussen Topic: As the fort’s Museum technician, Mike Seymour talks about the fort’s past, how we can better tell those stories through the items we have in our museum collection, and the care that goes into preserving these items. These items carry the stories of the past people who have used them. In this episode, we also talk about some of the items that have found their way to Fort Larned and some that have been unearthed right here at the fort.

September 2, 2023

1. Fort Larned's Past (Part 1)

Transcript

Transcript

[Footsteps theme plays with bugle and drum playing and sounds of footsteps and various sounds of people working]

Ben Long: Welcome to footsteps the Fort Larned National Historic Site podcast. This is the premiere of the podcast this is season one episode one. This season we're going to be taking a look at Fort Larned's past, present, and future. Today we're going to be taking a look at Fort Larned's past. I'm your host Ranger Ben I'm one of the Rangers here at Fort Larned National Historic Site and co-hosting with me today is our intern Carter. How's it going today Carter?

Carter Atteberry: It's going pretty good. How are you?

Ben: Doing well. Yeah, so why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, what got you interested in the fort.

Carter: So I'm Larned-ite as like to I say. I'm original to the area. Growing up I always came out for our Candlelight Tour. I always thought it was really fun to go watch, so I want to say it was probably 2016 or 2017 I decided to go and do it and I had a ton of fun doing it. So 2020 I did it I was put with Ranger Ben here. I didn't really think too much of it but he reached out to me about a year later and asked if I would be interested in helping with the video. I said yeah sure. And when I did that video it kind of re-sparked my passion for history and I said "Hey when can I do this more?" and he said "Oh Memorial Day is coming up" and I said "I'll see you then" and the rest is history.

Ben: Yeah. And you started -- so your internship is through Freedom's Frontier and you started let's see September 2022.

Carter: Yes. Freedom's Frontier National Heritage Area. It's a pretty good internship I'm a Minority Outreach Youth Specialist. So my job is to research minorities and I'll help write minority profiles for our Fort Larned Outpost articles and just doing general research and reaching out to minorities another potential volunteers about coming out and helping us be Fort Larned.

Ben: Now as we as we dive into this episode our interview today is with Chief Ranger George Elmore. He's been here for as he counts 50 years. He is a great resource I know for me as I've developed in my knowledge of Fort Larned and it was fantastic to hear his perspective on some of the things that he's seen, some of his favorite stories and the struggles of restoring a partially still standing or I should say mostly still standing fort.

Carter: He's honestly been a great source for me and you both. There will be times where you're not around and I'm like oh I wonder how this happened or a visitor will ask me some question that I've never had to answer. I know the guy to talk to for that.

Ben: George is definitely the resource for all things Fort Larned and like I said it was awesome to be able to pick his brain on this episode and one of my favorite things to talk about was restoring the buildings and some of the many things that went into that.

Carter: Yeah, one of my favorite parts was definitely when we were talking to him about what got him -- what drew him to the fort. Getting to hear how an arrowhead, just a tiny little object has created something so beautiful. Because I really feel like he's been a big driving force for just about anything that's happened out here.

Ben: Yeah absolutely. And we hope you also enjoy the episode so here you go!

Carter: All right!

[whosh]

Ben: So welcome George.

George Elmore: Well thank you.

Ben: Welcome to the first episode of footsteps. As we get started if you uh want to tell us your title how long you've been here what other parks you may have worked at.

George: Wow, I've been here so long I've forgotten, let's see. George Elmore and title is Chief Ranger. I've been here, started in I was in college at Fort Hays in 1973, started working in February and there was nobody and they, I came down applied for a job and a superintendent at the time said "Can you start next Saturday?" Back then you could hire right off the street. Of course it was a seasonal position so then I worked seasonally for a few years then got on permanent in '76. Bicentennial position, wow!

Ben: Yeah, there were quite a few hires that year?

George: There were. Yeah right. And Fort Larned got one.

Ben: Yeah nice. Now your degree is in this sort of subject too isn't it?

George: American West History, yep. That's my degree, my hobby, and job all three rolled into one. You can't beat it.

Ben: No you can't, no you can't. So I'm bad at math how many years does that make?

George: Well do you mean according to me or according to the Park Service?

Ben: Either one!

George: I say 50. Yeah you are a bad at math. No, actually in the Park Service they calculate it by a full year and so a seasonal year only counts like normally three months but according to the park service it's like 48 years. My first year and back then too you could actually work a person non-stop, you didn't have to have a break as a seasonal but they had to switch your job position. So I started out as a GS-04 and then the superintendent came up to me and he said "Well if you wouldn't mind we'd love to keep you on over the winter but we're going to have to change your grade." It's like okay -- a GS-02. Never heard of such a thing a GS-02, wow. But that was just for a few months over the winter and then went back to a 04. And then after that it was the normal seasonal you get laid off. But policies change.

Ben: Oh yeah, monthly sometimes.

George: Not always for the best. That was pretty cool just get walk in and get hired right off the street without any yeah hassle.

Ben: Yeah, I don't know if I've heard of too many GS-02s anymore.

George: I don't think there are very many. I suspect even then it was kind of a not a common position let's put it that way.

Carter: So you said you've been here for 47 years. What other parks have you potentially worked at?

George: This is the only one I've actually worked permanently at. I got on set teams in '82 when I got commissioned with a law enforcement degree background. Graduated from the Federal Academy and so, then, we had what was called special event teams, they're now are called special reaction or SWAT teams or whatever. But on special event teams, they're only like 2,000 commissioned Rangers in the entire Park Service out of normally around 21,000 employees. So what they have to do, each region has teams that they would put together, we had like three or four in this region and then you would go out and you work events at whatever park. They could call you and you'd have to be able to be gone within two days basically to the event. Worked events all over from Philadelphia to everywhere. It was quite an experience. You get to go to these dedications or not all of them were terribly good. Mount Rushmore several times and California. It's just different places wherever they needed a team to go that's where we went.

Carter: Two days is pretty short notice.

George: Well a lot of them were emergency situations too. You know something happens and they all of a sudden need a team to come in and guard stuff, take care of things, and whatever.

Carter: Yeah. Alright, so you're from Pawnee County originally.

George: Yep.

Carter: What drew you to the fort?

George: My personal interest started with -- when I was a young guy out on the farm we had a hired man and he came in he had found an arrowhead and it's just absolutely beautiful little black arrowhead. And it just fascinated me and so that really started my interest into Indians and then from the Plains Indians history interest going into the military was just kind of a common mix. But started out all with pretty much what were these people like that made this arrowhead? What were they all about? I mean why did that arrowhead all of a sudden end up out in our pasture? You know so yeah, that started it/ and then once I got more into it, it was just naturally -- I did kind of debate a little bit when I went to college do I really want to get a degree in history or maybe geology because both of them fascinate me rocks and minerals and fossils and paleontology.

Carter: So why do you find it important to preserve sites like Fort Larned?

George: Well if we don't preserve our history who's going to even remember our history? Comes right down to preservation, you know in authenticity. There's a lot of -- people say well we could bulldoze down on the fort and we could rebuild it cheaper than we can actually restore the original. But there's something to be said about actually touching history, being able to walk in and get the feel, the smell and it's the real thing you're walking on original floors we have original panes of glass in some windows. It's just phenomenal the preservation here and how much of the original fort was preserved. And that being able to touch history just like touching that arrowhead as a kid inspires people to learn more. You can go to a Hollywood set anywhere and well Bent's Fort is an example. It's a total reconstruction. It's great -- it works good as a set, but you're not touching history, you're not really experiencing as it looked when Bent's Fort was there. It's our interpretation of how Bent's Fort looked. Where here at Fort Larned, this isn't our interpretation. We know exactly how it looks through the Army plans and through the photographs and through various accounts and the archaeological work you know setting it all up it it's actually as close I think as it could possibly get it to how it looked in the 1860s.

Ben: Now as you were growing up here in Pawnee County, did you ever come out here when it was still a ranch?

George: Well yes. Actually, of course this is a long time ago, but back when I was first 1957 when the Gunsmoke crew, my folks were going to town and I drove by and you can see all the vehicles parked "Dad, Dad can we stop and look at it?" "No we're busy" So '59 when it was dedicated, kind of the same thing they had this pageant they put on and different stuff but we didn't actually come out but drove by. So I was always curious just one the heck's going on down there you know. When I got older of course then I start coming out on my own and just walking around and looking and started getting experience for it. When I was in and then in college I came out several times too when I was -- just to walk around and look at the buildings in the admire it's just beautiful.

Ben: Now as someone who also has a background in some geology, being that we do have sandstone structures is there something that also fascinates you about the geology?

George: Of course. Yeah, the sedimentary rocks like sandstone, limestone which you've got here are really full of fossils a lot. Limestone once in a long while you'll find something in sandstone it didn't preserve us well but yeah that's kind of fun just to walk around and look at the geology of Fort Larned it too. We did that a lot in college Fort Hays where we went to school was all limestone buildings and you'd walk around and even had classes that you'd had to identify various fossils and which building and where and stuff kind of fun.

Carter: So kind of continuing on with the historic structures, you kept saying that there was people that talked about bulldozing them and just rebuilding it.

George: Well of course, I mean you start looking at the dollar and cents of something like this. What does it really cost? I don't think people are really serious about it but on the other hand it's reality. When you do historic preservation you actually go back in with square nails you try to do it exactly as it was where you could do it quicker and cheaper with drill in screws or just round nails. But that's one really good thing about the Park Service is the degree of historic preservation that everybody tries to get it back to as much as you possibly can. When the Park Service first took it over they had what was called HABs drawings there were historic architectural drawings that came in and drew it as they saw it then and they took photographs of everything. And then they had archaeologists come in and excavate to figure out where porches were they might be missing and so historians doing a lot of historical research trying to find plans, photographs, drawings, anything that would relate. And so what we see today is a combination of all that material and all that research done by these different people going into how these buildings look now. Even down to paint colors they would go in and try to do paint samples to find out was it white washed? Was it painted? If so what shade? What color? You know.

Carter: So would you change anything about the fort's historic structures?

George: Well since I've had long hand in it, there are a couple little things. There's a few times in order to get something accomplished we had to stay within the budget and so there was some compromise made. It could be corrected, like for in the barracks for example, they elected to sheetrock the walls because we didn't have the money to go ahead and plaster it. So someday that should be really re-plastered. I mean the sheetrock probably to 99% of the people coming in they don't know the difference between sheetrock and real plaster but they were really plastered. And to me little things like that kind of bugged me but and that's why if you go in there you can kind of see some lines in the sheetrock where now it's starting to create a little separation. But they do have more techniques now too for doing historic preservation when you actually do sheetrocking like in the quartermaster building they have a base now that goes on you actually skim coat plaster on the top of it. And that makes it you really can't tell and when that's done.

Ben: It's almost like what they did we've Bent's Old Fort just having that sort of adobe covering on that. It's interesting. And too, I know you've mentioned to me before the number of posts on the shops building roof.

George: Well yeah, that's an interesting one there. This actually happened a couple times out here. But the shops building the architects took a look at it, the archaeologist excavated and where the columns were from about halfway through the building up to the north where the bakery was at had been removed by the farmers to put in a fuel tank. And so they were speculating okay we know there was a column here, and a column there, and it kind of, yeah. So how many did they put in? One was arguing eight, the other was arguing ten. So they put in 10 columns and no more than a few months after the restoration was done we found a photograph looking from the east, west onto the back of the building. There were nine columns. If they would have just compromised between the two. But I mean those things and that wouldn't be that hard to correct I mean we've got other historical errors. Like over in the barracks, the front porch we assumed was like the officer's porch, it was trimmed out a lot like the front porch of the officer's so the decision was made to put wainscoting on the ceiling. And then we found this photograph that people came in and donated of three soldiers standing in front and you could look up and you can see the porch ceiling. There's no wainscoting it was an open ceiling.

Ben: And the columns themselves have a different design too from that picture.

George: Not much -- or a little bit. Yeah, but not to a great extent, they're really based off of the officers for the most part they don't have the fancy trim and everything up at the top but the basic column is pretty much the same. Actually on the barracks, it started out with a four by four down the middle were on the officer's quarters they didn't. And then once they went from that into the 1868 when they were finishing it all up then they just trimmed around that four by four. In the officer's quarters over here, the columns were all hollow. It was based on the four sides of the column supporting everything of the weight of the roof. And so one of the things that behind the scenes that you can't see for the strength and preservation of the building, the architects put four by fours in the middle of them today so that the historic columns are no longer carrying the weight it's being carried by the four by four. But the columns are still there, they're still original and they're more of a facade now without any structural bearing to them.

Ben: Yeah and the -- I mean officers row has arguably the most original material on the buildings don't they

George: Yes, very much. The North and South Officers' Quarters are probably the most historic with a lot of original fabric of any of the buildings.

Ben: Because we even have original, like you're saying floors and panes of glass and all that too.

George: Correct. Where the barracks and the quartermaster building by the farmers using it they didn't need it as a barracks obviously and so they bred cows. Where our offices are today was a dairy barn for a while and a stock barn and was pretty well gutted.

Ben: It doesn't smell like that anymore thankfully.

George: What the farmers did even there through its use, do a lot of preservation like back in the kitchens there was original lath on the ceilings, original baseboards, in some places there was original doors still going from the main part of the building into the kitchen area. Some of the I think it's four the original gun racks are still up on the walls. They weren't not a lot, but there were still some of them.

Carter: I wasn't aware that those were original columns and Officers Row

George: Yeah the officers quarters are original columns. Well, not 100%. The Commanding Officer's house, most of the North and South officers quarters are original.

Ben: And there are some too that we've tried to preserve as much as we can but say like the bottom of them has rotted so that there is some that is replaced. Is that right?

George: That's a preservation technique, yeah. You save as much of the original wood for as long as you possibly can. In some of them the farmers in the 1920s they ran a concrete porch and took off the wooden porches and some of the bottoms of some of the columns even then were rotted. And so one of the column supports underneath might have been concrete four inches high, another one might have been six inches high. They weren't necessarily all level, just went up to wherever the wood was rotted. And so today what we do, if the bottom of it starts deteriorating a little bit, just cut it at an angle, add a new little piece at the bottom and try to preserve as much as you can for as long as you can. Eventually you know like the -- probably the main rooms will be okay forever practically but the hallways still have the original floors in the hall. And it was debated when we were doing the restoration of the South Officers' Quarters, would it be better to take up the original boards and put down new, or leave them? The advantage of taking them up then you would have some original flooring to repair damaged areas that maybe in some of the other rooms or something. But we decided it was best to leave the original alone as long as we can. At some point in time in the future, the flooring is going to wear out and it's going to have to be replaced in the hallways. But until then, if we can get another 20 years out of the original floor, let's get another 20 years out of it.

Ben: Yeah. With all these original buildings, they all hold a story. What would you say is your favorite story from when this was an active post?

George: Like you're right, they all hold a story. Like over here in the officer's quarters with the young officer coming out with his wife, Cooke, and just married and the Mother-in-law comes along. You know, today we go to visit family and we might be there for a day, or a weekend, or maybe a week. Back then, no, it took so long to get out here, the Mother-in-law stays months. You know, so here as a lieutenant, they're allowed one room but then pretty soon he gets command to the company and so he gets a little increase in room space. But it's just a whole different way really -- but the story of the Mother-in-law the wife and the officer living all in that small confinement would I think have been a challenge. But you know there are ways too they could have mitigated if the other officers that lived across the hall wouldn't have minded they could have maybe partitioned some of the hallway off and let the Mother-in-law stay in the hallway I mean who knows we don't know. We just know she was with them. There's a lot of good stories with the barracks and like shooting a buffalo through the window. It's not a good story it's a sad story, but the one where we had the drunken soldier come in, he's mad at the first sergeant, he yells at the first sergeant, cursing him out and the other soldiers are trying to calm this guy down. He and a Corporal get into a fight, first sergeant here's the commotion and he comes walking out and apparently he's got his rifle at carry or shoulder arms. The drunk swings at him, first kind of takes a little bit of side step back, swings up the butt of the gun, hits the drunk in the forehead, orders he be taken over to the Blockhouse and he'll press charges in the morning, visit with the officer. Well over in the Blockhouse during the night, the drunk never sobers up. He stays blabbering and surgeon suddenly, the post doctor, suddenly gets concerned he's called over well officer day gets the surgeon, calls over the doctor, he examines him and he has a cracked skull. When the first sergeant hit the soldier in the head he cracked his skull. And then of course then the soldier dies a couple days later. Now yeah, they get court-martialed, I mean he gets tried and he's found that was conduct prejudicial of good order and military discipline on the behalf of the drunk and the first sergeant was by law bound to maintain good order and discipline in the barracks and he was justified in maintaining the discipline and it didn't intend to kill him.

Ben: Just intended stop whatever was going on

George: Right yeah, and never really probably thought he was hitting him that hard. The steel butt plate on the gun going against the forehead and everybody's kind of mad and --

Ben: Adrenaline is going you don't really yeah right how hard you're swinging that thing.

George: And the Post Hospital the favorite story there is rabid wolf coming in and biting the soldier who's sick in bed's hand and nearly lacerates a couple fingers, and runs over to the porch of the officer's quarters and goes into an officer's quarters and the ladies are screaming and throwing plates and apparently and making, getting the wolf chased back out of the building. And then over in front of the quartermaster building there was a soldier on Guard Duty. He sees it, he lowers his rifle to shoot and the wolf comes running right at him, goes right between these legs doesn't bite him. Because on the other side of the soldier was a big dog and the wolf attacks the dog and they tussle. And then the wolf finally takes off from there and he gets shot by some of the guards. So what are you gonna do for rabies? Well, also it bites Lieutenant Thompson in the leg on the porch of the officers' quarters. Nothing then you could do for rabies they washed out the wounds as best they can. The dog dies first, the soldier dies, but Lieutenant Thompson got lucky and never died. He survived the wolf bite.

Ben: I mean there's a couple different accounts of that rabid wolf attack and from what I can tell it was just about 30 seconds to a minute of pure chaos.

George: Might have been a little bit longer it running from that now the hospital this actually occurred and was the adobe hospital back in the corner and so it took a while to run that far but yeah it didn't last long -- it was all over.

Carter: What important historical events occurred at and around Fort Larned?

George: Well I think one of the most important at the national level was when the Hancock Expedition came in in 1867. April '67 they arrived 1,400 men. They know during the Civil War Indian relations kind of got worse the Indians realized that the government's fighting the government of the South and things are kind of going nutso and they took advantage of it. And so Hancock decides he could bring out this massive army of course he's Commander of Department of Missouri and they can subdue the Indians by impressing them. And he's got artillery, infantry, cavalry, press corps, band, everything you can think of on this Expedition, platoon boats to help cross the river just like you're back east and doing a big major Civil War campaign. Well scouts, guides, you know, but they go about well, back it up. Hancock wanted the Indians to come in and visit with him here at the Fort and have this big peace parley here at the Ford. A few of them make it in most of them don't because there was a snowstorm that had hit in various reasons. The Army didn't trust or-- the Indians didn't trust the Army too well because after Sand Creek they were afraid maybe this is going to be just a massacre, kill us all. So then Hancock says well I'm going to take my Army out to you. And in going out to the Village Site which everybody here knew where it was at it wasn't any big mystery, it had been a big winter encampment of Lakota and Cheyenne. They arrive at a hill and this is first night out they go into camp underneath the hill that morning they get kind of a late start they're heading out over the top of this little hill and the raid then in front of them were the warriors from this village. And they don't really know how many but they were zigzagging back and forth on their horses. What they were trying to do is delay the Army from getting to the village because they want a time for the ladies and the kids to escape and not get caught like at Sand Creek. So pretty soon, they decide to have a meeting, they meet down at the base of the hill, some of the Custer and Hancock and some of the military leaders and a couple of the Indian leaders come over and one of the Indian agents Wynkoop, actually then kind of negotiated a little bit and finally the Indians agree to let the Army come closer to the village but not to the village -- they had to stay with about a mile away. And they agreed, then they were going to have this big meeting out there. And then when the Army gets out there, they established camp, and then finally word gets back to General Hancock that the Indians had fled. You've been tricked, it's a deserted village. And so Custer goes in on his hands and knees and some other couple other guys and they-- he crawls around and yeah, it's been abandoned. Custer does find an old Indian man in one of the lodges, there was a girl and an elderly lady that had been left behind to keep the fires going, walk around, make it look like the village is still very active and it was a tremendous duping of the Army by the Indians. I mean delaying all this going from here out there and then Hancock gets mad. He orders Custer to go out in pursuit first thing the next morning so the seventh Cavalry then goes out in pursuit of the Indians that were at the village. And then Hancock decides to pretty much destroy the village. The lodges were taken down and counted and how many of them there were. The Indian agent counted how many there were and the two don't quite agree but they're close. And so finally word there's a big debate amongst historians whether the word really gets back, but Custer and his seventh Cavalry discover up at the Smoky Hill Station the stage master has been pinned to the building with arrows and burned alive with the building. And Hancock claims he got that word so then he thought for sure that these Indians were the ones that did it and he didn't know that but whether he actually got that message or he was just anxious and he ordered everything to be torched, everything to be burned at the village. And then he takes the infantry and goes down to Fort Dodge. By burning the village and all this material then he catches the prairie on fire so it's the infantry and the artillery are going down to Fort Dodge, they're going down through prairie fires and smoke and they kind of get lost zigzagging back and forth they finally get to Fort Dodge. But this changes military policy is what's so important about this. The Army suddenly realized Civil War tactics are not going to work in the West and so they go to Winter campaigns with the battle of the Washita where the Indians can't flee, can't run, they're going to be forced to be in a small area they don't have supplies like we do. We can take you know into a small village and force them onto reservations and deal with it. But by the change of military policy that's a national effect which really is in my mind very important. And then the Indian Wars are affected from then on that-- okay yeah Sand Creek is horrible. I mean you know a lot of Indians got killed but it didn't-- it changes the way the Indians perceive the government no doubt. But it didn't really influence the way the government was fighting like this expedition did. That was-- the massive expeditions didn't work, they suddenly realized that. Didn't do any good, the Indians weren't impressed at all . Could just run away and you never catch them with a large expedition.

Ben: That was Custer's first experience of the Plains Indians too, wasn't it?

George: Yes it was.

Ben: That sort of set his mind too--

George: The Indians are gonna run, I gotta get there in a hurry. Yeah, I think that was probably in his mind at the Battle of the Little Bighorn if you really get right down to it. Because there's so much that is the same, it's basically the same people that were in that Village Site there that he will meet again at the Little Bighorn and of course the Washita some of them were the same there too, Black Kettle.

Ben: Later, Hancock runs for president and that works against him, doesn't it?

George: There was-- the Press Corps was along like we mentioned and at the time the press coverage was very good, but it quickly got into the Eastern papers that, yes, that this was a big failure, it cost the government a whole lot of money for this expedition, nothing really came out of it. And Hancock does get blamed for it and yeah it probably cost him the presidency. If you'd stop and you look after the Civil War how many presidents were famous generals during the war and Hancock was very famous from the Battle of Gettysburg and he certainly would have been a shoe in. But all of a sudden, his popularity went way down.

Carter: And correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Comanche Jack Stillwell with that expedition?

George: Yeah, there were several notable scouts and guides. Probably the most notable scout and guide really to work out of Fort Larned was Buffalo Bill, William Cody. He actually worked here in the quartermaster building. During the summer they had him out scouting and guiding but during the winter they wanted to keep him on, they switched him to a clerk, so they were able to keep him for a while here.

Ben: So if you come to our Issue Room you're walking in the footsteps of Buffalo Bill and walking--

George: the whole lineage of famous officers that were here. Nicholas Nolan, head of the cavalry and is with the Buffalo Soldiers

Ben: You got William Forewood who becomes Surgeon General, correct?

George: Right. He started-- he was actually here a couple times. He was here the first time as a single officer and apparently from some of the accounts, he liked to party. And he would invite other officers over to his house and they would have wine and parties and play cards, just get together with the guys. He leaves for a few months, gets married and gets reassigned to Fort Larned and when he was back the second time, he had his wife with him. My favorite Forewood story: got a call a few years ago from the Smithsonian Institution in Washington and they said "When did you send us the buffalo from Fort Larned?" Like what? We don't have buffalo here today, what are you talking about? "Yeah you do we got a buffalo skeleton here from Fort Larned." No, we haven't had bison here since the great herds were destroyed in the 1870s and I said "who sent the Bison?" "Well it's tagged on the box W. Forewood." So actually Forewood was a-- Post Surgeons then where the post historians, they had to record the flora and fauna, they had to record astronomical observations, weather, and he was a scientist and historian right up with being a doctor. And he went out and collected a bison and sent it to the Smithsonian and it's still there today. So what the next question was what else did Forewood send? But they checked their card catalog for Fort Larned and Surgeon Woodhall sent a coyote. So a couple of the Surgeons here sent specimens back to Smithsonian.

Carter: So going on to reconstruction. You were here for the reconstruction of more or less all the buildings, correct?

George: Reconstruction? No, restoration, yes.

Carter: Yeah, there we go.

George: The one building with this reconstruction is the Blockhouse

Carter: So what was the most difficult part of restoring the fort?

George: Well I think one of the most interesting and getting it restored is the Blockhouse and that project. The Frizells who owned the farm during the farming period from 1902 until we got it back. The Frizell family had put a pig pen over the top of where part of the Blockhouse was at. And a lot of people over the years thought that probably that had destroyed all evidence of the Blockhouse. But we had Dr. Doug Scott and he came in with a crew they found the corners of the Blockhouse were still there and so then the next year they came in and did a little more. And then finally it was determined to go back to the Congressional intent and Congress when Fort Larned was established said the Blockhouse should be reconstructed. And that push got moved forward and so it was decided to reconstruct the Blockhouse and with that they brought in another archaeologist, a couple of historic Architects and totally excavated the underground portions of the blockhouse which were still there still intact. You could tell every place there was a board it was still there, the steps going down from the main part into the basement were still there, down in the passageway, it was wooden-lined, all that lining was still there, and around the well was sandstone which is still there. The archaeologists-- a good thing that the historic architects were there because once they exposed this wood to the open air, it started just almost within minutes peeling and just decaying rapidly because of the moisture in the ground over the years. So you really if it hadn't been for the architects being there it would have been hard to document, but they quickly were able to document the size of each board, the length of each board. And so with the-- it is a reconstruction yes, but every board in that underground part today is an exact copy of what was found in that underground part. In in the stone back in the well house they laid down plywood once they excavated, it restored the building, picked up the plywood, so when you walk into the well-house itself you're even walking at the original dirt level where the original floor was at. So there's a lot of historic integrity even though it's reconstruction. Backing up from this a little bit, when we were doing the restoration of the officers' quarters we had to remove the concrete and put the wooden porches back. Well, when the Blockhouse was torn down, apparently they had saved the stone and then as the porches on the officers' quarters started to deteriorate and sag, they took these Blockhouse stones and shored them up underneath. And so we found entombed in the concrete in front, numerous Blockhouse stones underneath it. Blockhouse stones have been encapsulated in this concrete, we found over 300 original stones from the Blockhouse. And cornerstones, gun loophole stones, I mean it was easy-- it's kind of like a puzzle putting it together but the historic architects with the photographs were then able to figure out exactly how the corners looked. And then there's all 300 of those stones are back into the building today. So even though it's a reconstruction, yeah, it has original stones in it, the underground parts all have historical integrity, foundation, original foundation had to be removed, but the exact foundation today is on top of exactly where it was then.

Carter: So how much progress have we made up to this point in terms of restoration?

George: We have the Commanding Officer's house yet to restore on the interior. We did the exterior and hopefully within the next year or two we'll be able to do the interior of the building we're in right now. That's the last big original building to be restored. Now in the future, whether we'll ever see you know other things done. A lot of the early documents called for the 10th Cavalry Stables to be reproduced and one of the Sutler's Stores at least, where the soldiers could buy and sell and traders up and down the trail could buy and sell. And the Stables has always been considered extremely important to do because of the entire story of the Buffalo Soldiers just being organized. The very first Buffalo Soldier unit assigned to the field was assigned to Fort Larned, the first engagement was not here but on their way here over there by Fort Harker, they were attacked-- some people think it was by Indians but that was never really decided, it could have been easily by Desperados trying to steal their horses. But they were shot at, they returned fire, nothing else really happened but that was actually an engagement that they did have on their way here. And then they arrive here with 99 men, Nicholas Nolan like I said the hero of Gettysburg Cavalry. But he was their captain and stays here for about two years with the men and the stories of them while they were here and what occurred here, and some of it's really kind of sad. A lot of the infantrymen they may have fought in the Civil War to free the slaves but in their mind they didn't fight to work with the Black cavalry. They didn't like that. Others accepted them, it brought a lot of racial issues to the front. The whole thing is a long long story and it's more then we probably have time to talk about today but just the bottom line is there's a lot of discrimination that took place between the Black troops and the White troops here.

Ben: Absolutely. And you see some of that discrimination happening even though the laundresses and--

George: Oh yeah, oh yeah, right lighting fires. That's not the only fire there's one in the barracks too. Probably one of the infantrymen walking by thew a match on-- they were changing the prairie hay and the bunks, bed sacks and had to be changed every month.

Ben: And there was even discrimination against Nolan.

George: Oh yeah, tremendous. He's accepted by the other officers because of his Civil War record and being a great officer. He's married his wife's here with him, but yeah he was ostracized in a lot of ways too.

Ben: Which is unfortunate.

George: Like especially by the infantrymen. You know, one of the commanding officers even told Nolan when he was Officer of the Day he'd gone into-- some of these infantrymen got into a fight. Anyway, he was told "You're a cavalry officer, these are infantrymen, they don't have to pay attention to your orders." But he was Officer of the Day, so yeah certainly they did have to. But, a lot of discrimination like that little things and yeah.

Ben: And what's really cool is in recent years our friends' group has been able to-- has donated one of his revolvers that he had.

George: Yeah, our friends' group the Fort Larned Old Guard found out about this revolver and were able to raise about $15,000 to get it purchased for the exhibits here which is really phenomenal to get an original gun carried by a Fort Larned officer on display. I think on our exhibits one of the best things and these are just two years old now, three, that we worked a lot with the tribes. And so for the first time, we're actually telling the story of the Indians the way the Indians perceive it. Like when you come in, we have the hologram of a Cheyenne girl in a lodge telling you their version of the Indian Wars. And then culturally too, we really deal a lot now with the Buffalo Soldiers and the Hispanics. Trying to talk more about just not the uniforms and the equipment that was carried and used here, but the actual people who were here. And I think too maintaining what we've done is going to be a challenge for some of the people in the future. Hopefully they won't take shortcuts and say "well okay we're not gonna-- we know the fences are all whitewashed, but we're not going to whitewash them." The facings of the buildings were painted and the fences and smaller outbuildings and things were whitewashed. The military makes a big distinction of the two.

Ben: And you can see that today too, you can see the difference between the whitewash and the-- like the privies are painted you can tell that and the doors too. No, there was a-- I was talking to a reenactor at a recent event and asking him what his thoughts on this site were and he said usually you have either well preserved or secluded like these posts were. And he says you never often see the two together and that's really what we have here. Like you were saying, I mean there's little things that we can work on improving in the future. And even though the trees that you see here today weren't there when the Army was here it really shields us from the highway and turns back that dial.

George: On the trees you've got to stop and consider what time you're talking about. If you're talking about 1859 when the Army first arrived, we have sketches by Private Roche and the river looks almost identical to the way it did today. But the soldiers that were here during the Civil War years cut down the trees from firewood, they didn't want to go out away. The regular army when they were coming back after the war, they were going up to 30 miles away and they were upset that all the shade trees were gone and if you look at the photograph like that one taken in 1867 you see stumps where trees were they've been cut down. But the river I think should pretty much be kept as it is. Now it's the early view of Fort Larned not the 1860s view, but still, it provides a good screening barrier for the highway which actually helps sound proofing and everything else and visually helps to throw you into that period without seeing a lot of modern traffic a quarter mile away on the highway.

Carter: So how can we continue to grow and develop Fort Larned?

George: The best was keep selling it to the American public. The Congressional mandate we have is to educate and interpret Fort Larned for the American public, you know what happened here. We need to keep following that keep our eyes on that Congressional mandate whether it be social media or whether it be increased visitation, it really doesn't matter because we're educating and interpreting what happened in the American West to the public through both ways. And when we've got to continue that and hopefully over a period of time, it will naturally get more visitation. But our visitation has flowed up and down over the years. When Gunsmoke was very active and on TV, we used to have around 50,000 a year. Gunsmoke goes off the air, Dodge City is no longer a big mecca for everybody that wants to go see the cowboy thing, their visitation drops from probably a hundred and some thousand down to around 30,000-40,000 today. The power of the TV really got people whether it was-- no matter what you think of Gunsmoke it brought attention to Central Kansas and to Dodge City which is only 55 miles away. And it brought a lot of people here.

Ben: Yeah, even though the show itself was filmed what, in California?

George: Well, and Milbourne Stone, played Doc on Gunsmoke, grew up just a quarter mile south of the fort and played these buildings as a kid and I think he probably had a lot to do with a lot of the little stories that they had once in a while. "Well we're going to Fort Larned" or "Let's go fishing on the Pawnee." You know or going to Fort Hays so he had a lot of the historical references that he was able to help with for authenticity.

Ben: That's really cool. Now we have uh some really cool events throughout the year, five or six or so. How would-- sort of speaking to the listeners and our volunteers that help us out with that, how would-- tell us a little bit about maybe what your favorite event is and how those folks can help out with those kind of things.

George: Well my favorite event is Candlelight Tour because it's all based off of historic records and it's for one night we do first person and it's trying to create the illusion as if you walk through the fort when some of these different events occurred. Unfortunately it doesn't ever-- we have to cap it out like around 200 people a night and we could give a lot more than that but in order to keep it-- these scenes correct, takes a lot of planning and everything but it takes a lot of volunteers volunteer effort. Some Candlelight Tours have had up to 70 people volunteering, the average one's probably around 50 people that are coming out and helping with it. And it's important to local people take part with some of the things that we do. We couldn't begin to do interpretation without volunteers here. You know our staff is way too small, just like today we have a volunteer blacksmith in the Blacksmith Shop we have a volunteer carpenter over in the Carpenter Shop. And I think that's pretty important too if you remember Colonial Williamsburg and how everybody goes there to see the way everything happened during the colonial period. I hate to say this term, but almost like a Williamsburg of the west where people could come and actually learn about the 1860s and have some of the crafts and different things going on that went on here. I think our Plains Indian interpretation needs to increase a lot though too. We really-- our mandate is to tell the story of the Santa Fe Trail and the military role and we've got to keep doing that but we could certainly expand it more into a lot more Indian interpretation than what we're doing. But trying to find native and living history people that it's kind of-- in this area it's not too easy.

Ben: And that's important not only just for events, but for just sort of day to day because we get 25,000 to 30,000 or so visitors a year.

George: We're averaging around 28,000 to 30,000 right now. It's-- during the virus it goes up and down a little bit but the average year will be right around 28,000 to 30,000. It kind of stabilized at that. When we dedicated the Blockhouse and had that reconstruction done all of a sudden it went up to around 50,000 just made a little bump. We expected that to kind of happen because of the locals telling you said "Hey, they put a building in out there let's go see it." It's really important for the local community and Fort Larned to work hand in hand. At any point in time, if that doesn't happen it's not going to be good for either one of us.

Ben: There's definitely ways that we can--

George: The friends' group is very important and doing a very good job of promoting Fort Larned and hopefully they will survive and stay there too. I can envision down the road, the Cheyenne Sioux Village that was burned the friends' group own it today, it's 32 miles from here. That will hopefully become a National Landmark and then eventually become a satellite area of Fort Larned and a lot of the Native interpretation then can be done out the village site, but that's in the future yeah.

Ben: Down the line.

George: Down the line.

Ben: So for our listeners who say from out of the area or across the country, what are some ways that they can help support the park and help what we do here?

George: I think it's not just for them to help support the park but what can we do to help them? You know, while they're here learning about the American West and if we excite them about the place, they're going to come, they're going to learn about it, and then through that then in reverse it helps us too.

Ben: And hopefully they tell their friends what a cool site this is.

George: well we get a lot of visitation from outside the United States and you stop and think, almost half of the soldiers were immigrants. You know, French, Italian, Swedes you name it.

Ben: You would have heard all sorts of languages--

George: all sorts of languages being spoke here. And the Indian leaders too, let's don't forget them. Black Kettle was here, the Indian agency was here, these tribes were coming in and seeing Fort Larned. I mean they were curious how the soldiers lived and walk around and look at the buildings. And an account from one of the officer's wives that she never got used to the time they were here the room could suddenly go dark and there'd be an Indian looking in her window. But they were coming in, picking up annuities, and signing treaties. It wasn't fighting it was peaceful attempts during the Indian Wars. So not all of Fort Larned is about fighting. The Bureau of Indian Affairs was here, the Indian agents were here, and a lot of peaceful attempts too. Can you imagine if you were a soldier here on one hand you're giving the Indians food, ammunition, to maintain their way of life and the next day you're out on patrol and one of your friends gets shot. What are you gonna think? I'm sure it was hard for them to understand today but both were done here. Peaceful and military attempts.

Carter: How can listeners learn more about the park?

George: By coming here. Or listen to our social media and pick up a good book. You know, we got a lot of publications on the fort and different things. Hopefully we will continue social media, continue the outreach and keep reaching people that, like you're talking about then they will be excited to come here. To really learn about the park, they need to come here. You know, you can read about it but until you come here and you physically touch it, you can walk on the original floors, you can see history, I mean it's just oods of the original stuff. It just -- wow. Where can you go and really touch the 1860s like you can here.

Ben: It's definitely a new unique site and definitely a unique perspective you have from being able to see sort of the evolution of the past into the present sort of the ranch era and then almost turning the dial back as we go forward.

George: Right. We can be very thankful the National Park Service got it.

Ben: Yes.

George: I can imagine what this would have become if it would have been--

Ben: Yeah, we might not have what we do today.

George: Yeah, might not be here.

Ben: Well thank you for coming on thank you for talking with us for a bit and--

George: Certainly.

Ben: Hopefully it'll encourage some folks to come see it for themselves.

George: Let's hope so!

Ben: Alright, thank you.

[whosh]

Ben: Alright well thank you for taking a listen today we hope you enjoyed this episode looking into Fort Larned's past. Again, if you don't follow us already on our social media, we are on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, also be sure to check out our webpage. We have a lot of resources there for you as well as some of the videos and things like that that Carter and I referenced at the beginning of the podcast.

Carter: Thanks for giving it a listen if you have any interest in stuff that's pretty similar to Fort Larned definitely check out Bent's Old Fort.

Ben: Their social media has a lot of similar aspects to ours so--

Carter: And it's a super cool site

Ben: It is

Carter: It's one of my favorites. Keep exploring your National Parks, come to Fort Larned.

Ben: And we hope you have a wonderful day. Keep an eye out for future footsteps podcasts. Thank you again for listening and we hope you have a wonderful day.

Carter: We'll catch you next time on footsteps the Fort Larned National Historic Site podcast thank you.

[Footsteps theme music fades in and back out]

Guest: George Elmore Host: Ben Long Co-Host: Carter Atteberry Topic: Fort Larned certainly has a multi-faceted past with many different stories — stories that Chief Ranger George Elmore has spent his entire career studying. In this episode we hear the stories of not only when Fort Larned was an active military post, but some of the actions in the past that brought us to where we are today in representing Fort Larned's past.