Season 1
4. Shirley Carr Clowney
Transcript
[START OF TAPE 1]
Adam McNeil: Thank you so much for being with us today. It's a pleasure to have you. For the record, my name is Adam McNeil, interviewer, and we have our interviewee, Mrs. Shirley, Carr Clowny. And so I already said your name, but can you tell us your birthday for the record?
Shirley Carr Clowney: July 25th, 1936.
Adam McNeil: And for the record, mine is July 30th, of 1992.
Shirley Carr Clowney: Interesting. Interesting.
Adam McNeil: And so to begin, tell us about your family beginning with your parenting as far back as you know of your family.
Shirley Carr Clowney: One of the interesting things that I have learned since being a part of the Blount County Genealogical Historical Society is that my family is all from Blount County. I was able to go back to 1806 to find my father's father and mother, 1806, way before, what? What's the word I'm looking for? Emancipation, before slavery ended, it's almost unknown to be able to go back that far for African Americans. Now I want to know how they got to Alcoa, but all of my family is originally from Blount County and mostly in Alcoa Also, my grandfather owned 108 acres where the north plant is of the aluminum company. And I'm still trying to find out if they took it or if he bought they he sold it or if he got anything at all for it. But it's out there where the north plant is and where Shoneys is this on the Alcoa highway near the airport.
So that is history that I did not know until 2018 when I did the research at the courthouse here in Maryville, there are eight siblings in our family. One is deceased, happened to die in North Carolina, got ill eating something wrong over there. Could not be brought back to Alcoa. So he had to be buried there. In North Carolina, there are four brothers and three sisters. Three of us are still alive, the others all passed in their late eighties. My father was a brick mason and built a lot of buildings and community houses and communities, schools, churches. He was very well known in this area for the kind of work that he did. Two of my bro older brothers worked with him and the rest of us all went to college and he paid for us. We did not have to work while we went to college.
So that is something that is a bit unusual for people in this area. Dunno, you talk about, keep going as long as you can. Now, in 1954, the law changed something versus education, brown versus education. And one of the persons who worked with my father was a principal at Hill High School, which is the black school in Maryville, told my father, suggested to my father that I enrolled in Maryville College. And I said, huh. But there were two of my friends who graduated with me and I talked them into enrolling with me at Merriville College. I believe it was in the spring or early summer that brown versus education came about. And we went over and registered right after that, becoming the first three black women ever to be enrolled in Maryville College. There were black men enrolled in the 18 hundreds, but 1901 was the last year that African Americans attended Maryville College.
So before going to Maryville College, we went to the only black school for us in Blount County. And we walked a mile from our house to the school for 12 years. The only time we didn't walk was when it was raining and my father couldn't work and my father happened to have a car. And at that time you didn't have to have seat belts. So his car would be filled with kids in taking them to the school and we'd have to wait until he came back to take us because there would be so many going in his car. So after I graduated, I lived a mile from Maryville College, so I walked another two years. So I walked one mile to school for 14 years here in Blount County we found, but as when we went to Maryville College and we didn't stay on campus of course but I walked to school.
I didn't on campus, but we've found that we were not adequate, adequately prepared to be competitive with the white students who had had different kinds of education than we had. As a matter of fact, we got used books from the Alcoa schools to use in Hall High School. And the other thing is that all of the students took the same classes. There was no such thing as special classes or AP classes. We all took the same courses except for home economics and shop. So they were preparing the African American students, I guess, to work in homes and to do manual type labor. After two years, I told my dad, I said, look, first of all, I graduated at see valedictorian at Hall Highschool school did not mean one thing at Maryville College. So I told my dad, I said, if I can't get A's and B's I need to go somewhere else where I can. And so after two years we all stopped and I enrolled in Tennessee State University.
I got my average back up and ended up being on one of the honors societies. But after I graduated there, first of all my husband was from West Tennessee Nashville is in Middle Tennessee. I'm from East Tennessee. And so East met West in middle and remarried and started a family. After I graduated, I found that I could not find a job in home economics, which it was my subject area. And for some reason we ended up moving to New Jersey and I had to go to Rutgers to get certified to teach elementary ed. I had was, I had degree in elementary and secondary. And so I wanted to be prepared for either if a job came up and I actually got hired at my first interview. And I remember one particular thing about that interview that has stayed with me all this time, the superintendent asked me, how do you think you would will be in a classroom of all white students?
And I said, excuse me. My father taught us that people are people that we respect them no matter what. And I was hired, I was in the New Jersey school system for 28 years. So one of the things that happened though was that I ended up in the high school and the high school students were very disrespectful. And one of the things that happened to me is that I retired at age 55 because I had met the requirements for retiring after 28 years and whatever else. So I actually came out at age 55 and I have not looked back. I have been able to move forward and here I am now still doing things and not confined to a particular job. I'm doing something I really want to do. You want to ask questions?
Adam McNeil: Of course. No, no, no. I keep What were your parents' names?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Okay. My father was James Andrew Carr known as Andy Carr. And my mother was Mary Pearl nicely from North Carolina. I don't remember how they met, but I think her mother moved here from North Carolina and they were married back in 1902 I believe. So my mom was a stay at home mom. She made us get up and dust and mop the floor and do the dishes and put them away before we walked that mile to school every day. I think Sunday when we went to church we didn't have to do so much. And we were brought up in the Baptist church and were very active Sunday school, morning worship, sometimes afternoon service and evening service, which they called B Y P U Baptist Young People's Union. So we were very active in the church and we weren't able to do a lot of things. Like we weren't allowed to play cards or go to dances. So we were brought up a little, shall I say deprived. Anyway, it, it's worked out for us anyway, whether we could or not. We've managed.
Adam McNeil: It was very interesting. It was always interesting hearing about the upbringings folks and such. So that's phenomenal information. And also being able to go back to 1805, that is, that's exceptional. What are the names of any of those ancestors of yours that go back that far?
Shirley Carr Clowney: It was a Carr and we're not sure it was K E R R because when they took what they're getting ready to take now.
Adam McNeil: Census
Shirley Carr Clowney: Census, we have found that in some cases they might have been known as K E R R instead of C A R R because they just kind of wrote down whatever it is they've heard. And we have some well, we're not all together. Sure. But what we found was C A R R, what was his first name. And we also found about three years ago that they're buried out here in Maryville. And we did not know it, but their graves were overgrown. And my brother and someone here from the library, from the Genealogy Society went out and cleared that area and we found their gravestones. I probably have them somewhere, but anyway, they are buried right here in Blount County and their record is right in the Blount County Courthouse. So I don't remember Alice, Alice was her name and what was his name? Probably, I don't know. Better not say. But anyway, it's on record right here and we never ever knew it. So that's a part of history that a lot of people don't have because they have not researched it.
Adam McNeil: So not to stay there for too long. But I'm, I'm intrigued by this were, what was the actual record? Because you set up the thing such book, were they, was it a sale record or was what was the kind of record?
Shirley Carr Clowney: They have these big books larger than that frame over there and we had to climb up on a ladder to get these big books. And all of this information is in fact in the books over in the courthouse. And I don't know how it was done, but it's there in writing. And I'm not sure if my grandfather did this for me or not, but my father started working at the aluminum company when it was started here in about 1918. And he kind of worked with the builders to do a part of that. And he was on a baseball team called The Sluggers because my father was such a religious person. There was a time when the team was asked to play on Sunday. He said he put his glove on his arm and said, I go to church on Sunday, I can't play anymore. I remember that as something that he was just very good about following his beliefs. And so I mentioned earlier that we weren't allowed to do certain things on Sunday. Playing ball was one of them. So that was one thing that stood out to me for a man who took his beliefs seriously and it showed in everything that he did.
Adam McNeil: Now saying. And so you talked about your family going back to the Alcoa area, the CARR slash KERR family going back to 18 0 5, 18 0 6, rather with the record. So do you have as much knowledge about your mother's side? Is that the North Carolina?
Shirley Carr Clowney: I do not. And the person who worked with me to get that information had agreed to go with me to North Carolina to do that. It never happened, but I haven't given up on it.
Adam McNeil: Good, good, good. So talked a little bit about your family history, genealogical history, genealogical work that you've done. But can you tell us about what your earliest childhood memory is?
Shirley Carr Clowney: I remember that we well my father built this stone house in, I think it was early book19 hundreds. And it was like the only big house in Blount County. I mean they called it Oakfield it's now Alcoa. And it was a pretty big house and we would play high to go seek around the house and we were allowed to go in the street, which was, it, wasn't paved, it was rock. And we could play ball in front of the house. Now down the street there was a baseball field, but I wasn't allowed to go there and play because it was out of sight of my parents. So we could only play in the front of the house on the street. Now when I learned to skate, I had to go down the street on to Aluminum Avenue where there was a sidewalk because there was no place to skate on Hood Street.
By the way, when we moved there, when my dad moved there, it was called Hood Street just before he passed in 1989, they named that street, Andy Carr Avenue. So we have a street named for our father. A couple of months ago, there was an article in the paper about schools or buildings here with the bricks that were falling off. And I have an article that some person wrote saying they should have had Andy Carr build their house. They wouldn't have these problems. Now that to me was real special. And I still have that article somewhere because he didn't cut corners, he did the work the way it was supposed to be done. And there are houses and buildings like four 11 hotel down the road at Mount Lebanon Church of the Highway going toward the Smokey Mountains he built. So anyway, that's whats coming to mind right now.
Adam McNeil: That's awesome. That's awesome. And also too, what pride do you take from knowing that when you walk around and you drive around Alcoa and Blount County largely that you see emblems of your family history, what does that do for you?
Shirley Carr Clowney: It makes you feel humble. It makes you feel that people recognize contributions that have been made that are still alive and that people still recognize. They give credit and honor to the kind of work that was done by our four parents. One of the things that I recall is the church that we went to, St. John Baptist Church would take a bus to the Smoky Mountains or up to Cades Cove for our Sunday school picnic. And I remember that going around the mountains, some of the kids would get sick and just like it was yesterday, I remember taking, we would take a box of wooden matches and you could chew on the wooden match and that would keep you from becoming ill. The other thing is that when we moved back here in 1992, our children stayed in New Jersey. But every summer when school was out, our grandchildren would come here and stay with us for the summer. They would call our house momma's and pop pop's summer camp. And one of the things we would do is take them up to Cade's Cove and we would take our picnic and blankets and the kids would have the biggest time going out on the rocks and they would catch the salamanders and they would have so much fun. We did that every summer. It was a trip to Kate Cove was just a part of what we normally would do Now that they are grown, when they come here, we still do that. Our first grandson is now about 30 years of age and two years ago, he and his wife came here and they purchased a piece of property in Pigeon Forge and they are now looking to add to that.
I mean he's 30 years old and he went to California to do his internship, ended up getting a job, ended up making buku money over a hundred thousand dollars a year. And he's out there now still doing well. But when they come here we go to Pigeon Forge. But of course if you go to Pigeon Forge, you're going to go to Gatlinburg and to, what's the other place? Well, I guess it is Pigeon Forge. That's, that's where his property is now. So it's interesting how from California, he has come here and decided to use that as an income for he and his wife.
Now our daughter who's now 61 years of age comes every year and we go up to the old mill, which is in Pigeon Forge. She has to go to the old mill for a dinner every time she comes. And then we go shopping. And the last time she was here this summer, she got a rock at one of the places outside of the old mill with her daughter's fiance's name on it. And we are keeping it until they get married this year. But we just have to go up there and eat. And that's something that we look forward to this year. We took our niece with us who doesn't get around like we do. And it was good for her. She enjoyed that very much.
I remember years ago going up to Clingman's Dome. Now we have not been up there in a long time because driving around those curves are a challenge and one that I'm not up to and my husband doesn't do that kind of driving and the Smokies, oh, there's something interesting. I remember my dad used to take people up to the Smokies on Sunday afternoon and there was one of his friends who was in the front seat with him and my dad knew those mountains like the back of his hand. And so he's going around the curves and this man is putting on brakes and by the time they get back the Alcoa, his legs are swollen from putting on brakes. But when my dad would go around the curves kind of quickly, so that's something that I have not forgotten over the years, that he would take people up there that didn't have any other way means of getting there just so they could see the beauty of the mountains. Many times when I drive up there, I wonder how in the world could anyone ever say they didn't believe in God. There's no way men could create anything like the beauty of the Smoky Mountains. And I don't care how many times you go, you always enjoy. So we are glad we are at the foothills off the Smokies.
Adam McNeil: Definitely, definitely. And you know, spoke about your father and his experience being able to hit those windy roads and like a pro as if, he's always been there. What are some of the stories that he might've provided to you about how he reached the ability to do so and what experiences did he have as even maybe a youngster or his connections to the mountains?
Shirley Carr Clowney: I don't know about connections to the mountains, but I remember at one point there were no jobs here and he caught a train and went to Ohio to work when he was younger. But I don't know if I remember anything specifically about he and the Smoky Mountains in his earlier years. I imagine that he might have driven over that way to North Carolina where my mom was from. But I don't remember anything specifically about anything that he has told us about his experiences. And he was one that liked to talk and tell you, but it's just that I can't remember all that stuff. I mean we would sit on the front porch and we had a swing out there and he would sit in this corner chair and rock and he would share with us anybody who came down the street, they might come over hi Mr. Andy, they'd come in and talk to him. So he was well known in the community and well respected and people would often come in and talk with him about different things.
Adam McNeil: And so with that too, did you feel, how did you feel connected to the mountains as someone growing up?
Shirley Carr Clowney: I don't know except I distinctly remember St. John taking those bus trips. They are perhaps my earliest memories of going to the Smokies and I, we always went and we carried our basket lunches and our tea and sodas and we would go into certain areas and I'm not sure if Cade's Cove is where the Sunday school went or not. I just know that's where we went and still go and they're closed it off this week so they can't get in there. So hope nobody comes from New Jersey until they open it up again. But I don't remember much more about those trips except just the other day I mentioned we had to get some matches to start to grill outside and I thought about how we chewed on those matches to keep from getting sick. You know how you, I don't know if you know, but you would get to the point where you might regurgitate because of going around the curbs. And so that's the main thing that I remember. I don't know if we had any ball games or anything like that. I do know that we would sit around the table and go into the water. Everybody liked going, walking in the rocks in the water. And at one time our grandchildren came and they got on those inner tubes and one of our granddaughters lost her shoe up there. That was in Townsend maybe. So we've had interesting kinds of experiences over the years and now all of those grandchildren are all now married with their own families and we expect they'll be bringing them their youngsters here to experience some of the things that they did as a child.
Adam McNeil: What are your favorite places? What actually, what is your favorite place in the park?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Cade's Cove.
Adam McNeil: Cade's Cove.
Shirley Carr Clowney: Now there's another place that you don't have to go to the right, to the cove, you can go to the left and I can never remember the name of it, but it's very similar to Cade's Cove. So we don't want to do all of that. We go to this place, come on before you get to Pigeon Forge and it's a park that's very much like Cade's Cove and I should remember the name of it. But lately, since we are getting older, we go there instead of driving to the cove. But it, it's very similar. They have the picnic tables, you can go down to the water. I don't think there is many rocks like there are in the cove. And when we went went tubing that was right there in, oh, what's the name of that? Townsend. I believe they like that.
Adam McNeil: And so you talked about attending or visiting the Smokies throughout your life and as a visitor who's been, who has visited for a number of years, have you seen, what have you seen that's changed, if at all, about the African American presence within the visitation, right? You've visited for generations. Has the population of African Americans, Black folks generally increased, decreased, or things that you're conscious of?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Well, I don't know if I can give a response to that. A lot of people here now don't take the time to get out of Alcoa Drive to don't even want to drive in Knoxville. I used to go to church in Knoxville and I would have tickets for different events. They would not go across that bridge to Knoxville. So I don't know too many people here who traveled to the mountains on a regular basis. It's just, okay. I belonged to a church in New Jersey that was mixed. We were in the minority and the pastor and his wife and I became good friends and my husband worked on Sunday, so I was the church goer. They left and went to Minnesota and we stayed in touch. They came back here to Maryville and spent two days with us. And then of course I had to take them to the Smoky Mountains.
So it's that kind of thing. We're still in touch till this day. And I left there. I mean they left there back in, we moved here in 92 and they left before then and we're still in touch by phone, by email, by letters. So that's something that is special to me. And they certainly enjoyed the trip to the Smoky Mountains. And anytime we have company that's not from this area, we just drive up there and come back, just drive and show them the beauty of the mountains. So we were glad to be in this area because we see God's, handy work.
Adam McNeil: There we go. Now was that, you said that you attended a mixed, A mixed. Was the minister Black African American or was it?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Uhuh, this white. White.
Adam McNeil: Okay.
Shirley Carr Clowney: As a matter of fact, I don't know if I want to say this or not. I joined, I went to church in Knoxville for 25 years because it was a more progressive church. When I go to church, I want a song, I want a prayer, I want a message, and I want to go home. I don't want to be standing there saying the same words over and over and over again. The preacher saying, tell your neighbor that's not my way of worshop. So that Alcoa, the church over there split and the Alcoa highway is very dangerous. So I stopped going. They said, now they said, where am I going to go? I'll go to a white church. We're the only people of color there. And so now with the atmosphere of people going in and shooting the pastor and the members, we have decided, we go to Sunday school, we go in the back door, come out the back door after Sunday school and come home and watch TV service. Don't go into the main worship area because I want to live and I don't want anyone else to lose their life because of me, because of my (inaudible.) So that's something that's most unusual. Now the people here don't understand why I do that. They don't know why I won't come to their church. And I told you I know what my worship experience is and I'm not going to sit there for two and a half hours. I just won't do it. So that is a challenge for me at this particular time of my life.
Adam McNeil: It's definitely something that I can definitely understand, you know, like what you like and your message packed the way that you like it. So yeah, I definitely understand that. And so. Shirley Carr Clowney: The people don't. I mean, you understand, but they don't.
Adam McNeil: Yeah, definitely. And so just you know, going a little bit back to your childhood and your experiences growing up here, what was your experience like growing up in Alcoa, just generally speaking, what was that like?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Well, like I said, we lived in an area that at the time was integrated and my dad was just the kind of person that people were people, he didn't care what color they were and that's how we were brought up. We could play with them and do things with them. One thing that I remember is that I was not allowed to go to movies with a boy unless we went in a car and it was in walking distance. So they were very particular about me being with guys. If I had a boyfriend and he came to the house at 10 o'clock, then we'd hear shoes drop. That meant it was comprehend to go home. So that's one thing that I remember. And I remember once going to the fair, they would have a fair here. And it was in walking distance and somehow, I'm not sure I told my parents I was going with this friend of mine or not, but we did go and I think that's when I got my first kiss. So it was different. I couldn't go with him to parties or anything. He could come to my house or we could walk through the neighborhood. But I remember once going to the movies and he had to call a taxi to take me to the movies. So that was a little bit different than most other kids that they had lots more freedoms that we had.
And the other thing is there were seven of us so alive. My older brother was four years older than my younger sister was five years. Wait a minute. Oh I meant my brother was four years older than I. My next sister was five years younger than I. So I was out there by myself, so to speak. And I always felt like I was not able to do things as other kids my age could do because I was protected. I was overly protected and I wasn't allowed to, was trying to remember if I ever got when I got my driver's license, but I wasn't able to do things like other kids could do. And I always kind of felt like I was too protected. And it was an unusual situation to be in my brother, the brother who was four years older than I was the one that I looked up to for guidance.
And if I said I want to go to the prom and he would help me try to get to the prom. Or he was like a person that I could talk to when I had a situation that I was dealing with. And speaking of prom, the first prom that I went to, I had to go with my married brother and his wife and my dad did not know I was going and my mother had borrowed this dress from my pastor's wife. It was the ugliest thing I ever saw. I could not get a gown. So I wore that and I went with them and the guy that I was dating had to meet me at the place of the prom and come back before midnight. And my senior prom, I did not get to go to, I missed my senior prom because of my parents' attitude toward dancing. So I was pretty protected.
Adam McNeil: Staying here. But I think this is an interesting moment. Looking back, what are your thoughts on that? The protection that your family, that your parents had? What, looking back on that, what are your thoughts on that?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Somehow I wonder how I have gotten into being so involved in things and doing things that were pretty much unheard of in that time and how I have been able to contribute historical information. I, I'm not sure how that got in my head, but honestly I, I'm different than anybody else in my family. I was going through some things. This is a group called Voices of the Valley. Yes. I worked with this professor at Maryville College for her students to go out into the Alcoa community and to interview people who came here from Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi to work in the aluminum company. This lady saw those interviews which are here in the library by the way. She saw them and decided to write a play called Voices of the Valley. And initially we had people who were used to doing theater in Athens and they would come here presented, we did it here in the library initially, but now we have people whose parents were involved.
So they are actually descendants of those people who came here to work in the aluminum company because the pot room was so hot that other ethnicities could not stand it. And they thought that these people who lived in the south could take that heat of the pot room. And my husband plays a guy in the pot room. Wow. So now we have given this play about a dozen times because this year we are celebrating the 100th anniversary of the city of Alcoa. And we're also, and I'm working on that committee and the committee from Maryville College that is celebrating 200 years of existence here. So anyway, I don't know how I got into that. I, as a matter of fact, I just got called from Tennessee State University to work with two other people on the 60th anniversary of our graduation in 1960. And you know what? I told them I didn't think I could take on another thing. I learned to just say no. And then I thought about, well that would've been a real addition to the things that I have done, but can't do it.
Adam McNeil: Everything. Yeah. And it's interesting, we interviewed, like I told you before, Jackie, Jackie Hill, Tennessee State grad as well. I'm also a proud historical black college grad. Yeah. Florida A&M University. October 3rd, 1887. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. And so it's a part of our pride. And so coming from that kind of historical stock and even just thinking about the local, the color Tennessee, it originated.
Shirley Carr Clowney: Oh
Adam McNeil: It originated by Mrs. Scott in Nashville in 1865. And then tell us about the paper color of Tennessee.
Shirley Carr Clowney: Well, there was a time when it was very dangerous for blacks to live here. And William B. Scott's family moved to Knoxville. And in fact Scott, I don't know, it was not, his brother had been captured but was able to get away and went to Knoxville. And that's where they learned the newspaper business. They moved to Nashville for one year and did the color Tennesseean, then they came back here and they did the, what did they call it? I should know that. But anyway, he had the only local paper for 10 years.
Adam McNeil: Maryville Republican?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Republican. It was the Republican. And I did the research on him and was able to get a portrait of him eight by four foot portrait in the municipal building. And it was done by a friend of mine who was a, what do you call a person who does art. And we worked for a long time to get this eight by four foot portrait. This is bigger that as that door and it is now in the Miracle Municipal Building. When it was done, they told me that it was going to be put in a particular place and the day that they were putting it there, I went there and I said, well, I was told it was going to be in such and such place. I didn't win that one, but that's okay. He's up there. That is a monumental task for me to be able to get someone who was the only black mayor of Maryville before or after, there's never been another one. So he holds that distinction and he now has this place in the municipal building. The church beside the municipal building has a cemetery, well, didn't belong to that church, belong to New Providence, but his remains are in that cemetery. And I have been able to take bus tours. I took tours to the cemetery and to the municipal building and also to the old Stone house where they kept slaves on the Underground Railroad. So that's something else that I have done over the years. The last one I, I ended up in the hospital in heart attack, so I don't do it anymore. We would, starting the Blount County Museum, we'd go to the cemetery, we'd go to the county building where his portrait is, then we'd go to Friendsville where the Underground railroad stopped and we would go into the house where they kept the slaves and in the basement of that house is still standing. There would be holes in the wall where the slaves would have to go in and sleep during the day because they traveled at night and then they would go by water to the next place. So I was able to take them there. Also took them to the Quaker church because the Quakers were very important in helping not only the slaves, but also white people who couldn't get jobs. So the Quaker church was very important during the time of the Underground Railroad. And we would take them to their church. Now at one point you could see the cave that Cudjo's Cave, that where they would stay. But now it is owned by someone else and no one is allowed to go in there. As a matter of fact, I've heard they saw it has been closed off. But those are things that I got involved in. And like I said, the very last tour I took, I got back to the church and they had to take me home. So I think when I do something I just put myself into it and I overdo it. And I'm trying to learn to just say, no.
Adam McNeil: Think we can all learn to do that.
Shirley Carr Clowney: You got a long way to go then get to 83.
Adam McNeil: Hey, well hope, hopefully we can take that long, long road.
Shirley Carr Clowney: And wish you well.
Adam McNeil: Thank you. Thank you. I do have a question. You brought up Cudjo's Cave. Tell us about Cudjo's Cave. I never heard of it.
Shirley Carr Clowney: Well that's where they would go during the day and stay before they would get back on the water and Cudjo's Cave was right on the lake but wasn't (inaudible).
Adam McNeil: Well. What's the name of that lake? I'm sorry.
Shirley Carr Clowney: I don't know the name of the lake. But it's in Friendsville. Friendseville. Okay. And they, I don't know if they now actually the old Stonehouse is not terribly far from Cudjo's Cave. So I don't know if they had different groups going to different places that I don't know. But Cudjo's Cave had an opening where they could go in and feel safe and come out at night and move on down the river until, I don't know if they went to Louisville. They call it Louisville, I call it Louisville. But there's a place there also that has a place, a house where a slaves would stay overnight before getting on the water.
Adam McNeil: Very interesting. And so I'm trying to think, so you know talked about park experience from when you were younger. What does the park mean to you now? What does, not even the park but just the space and the land, what does that mean to you?
Shirley Carr Clowney: All I see is God's handy work. And where we live now, when we go down the street ahead of us is the longest view of the Smoky Mountains. I have actually stopped my car and taking pictures, especially when there was snow. And when I come down there, I'm just in awesome. There's so many different ranges and different levels that I just think about the [inaudible] of God, how he has created this and we are right here where we can really appreciate it. I don't know of anything in New Jersey that causes me to be moved by just seeing the beauty of the mountains. It's awesome. It's just almost, it's like a dream. How could this, how could we be here and be able to appreciate the handy work of God. And we are right at the foothills of it. It's awesome.
Adam McNeil: Yes,
Shirley Carr Clowney: It really is.
Adam McNeil: It is. And so you said that your favorite place in the park is Cade's Cove. That was a very quick answer. When it comes to just the nature experiences generally, what's your favorite part about just the environment around? Cause I know you said God's country, but landscape wise, what's your favorite, what's your favorite season within the Smokies?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Oh, when the leaves changed, and this was an unusual year because of the dry weather, but we always like to go to the mountains when the leaves are orange and brown and red. That is just all, it's unbelievable. And there's a spot between Townsend and Pigeon Forge where you can see different, different, what the mountains are arranged in different ways. It is just unbelievable. Even though we didn't get to see the colors change this year, we usually do. We still went up there when my daughter was here and we found this place, we know where it is, but we stop there, we get out of the car and we take pictures because of the different, I don't know how to describe it, but the range and the shapes of the mountains is phenomenal. It's just unbelievable. And I still enjoy I started probably when I was about eight or 10. I'm 83 now and I still want to go see it. Absolutely. Yeah, it's just an awesome experience that doesn't grow old.
Adam McNeil: And I noticed too with your bookmark there, Black and Appalachia, what does it mean for you to be Black in Appalachia?
Shirley Carr Clowney: I don't know how to say, I don't know how to comment on that. Because of my experiences, because of my parents who trained us, because of other experiences that I've had, I think I've a little different than most people of color here. And I feel like I have made some insignificant contributions, if you will, because I have embraced the idea of being in a place where God has allowed me to research and to share with others. So I'm just happy to have been able to contribute what I have contributed because I don't know anybody else who has done as much. There's some, but it's just one thing leads to another and I'm just glad that I've had this opportunity and that I have been able to research and preserve months of the history of our people.
Adam McNeil: And so for the record, what is it that you're holding right now?
Shirley Carr Clowney: This book, Our Place in Time: Blacks in Blount County represents many years of research and questioning and collecting from different people. Information about Blacks in Blount County, from the army to the plant to just plain light to school. This is like a dream. I had 500, first I ordered 200 and they went real quickly. So I ordered 300 more. I think I have about five left. And the interesting thing about it is that when it first came out, I was invited to most of the white churches around here and I'd sell 25 or 30 at one sitting. And it wasn't until recently that some of the black churches were and I'd sell 10, maybe five. I did go to Knoxville and I sold 24 at Mount Olive. That's where I went for all those years. So they let me come back and sell it. So this is the chronic glory to the work that I've done. And right now I had someone call me yesterday and asked how many books I had and I told them what I just told you. And so I said what I will do is find out if people want them and if they do and there's enough for me to read the best, then I will. But this has been my chronic glory.
Adam McNeil: Wow. And it is also something that I worked, I visited before the meeting last year. I reached out to Beck.
Shirley Carr Clowney: Yes, yes.
Adam McNeil: What interactions have you had with them?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Oh, now my husband has been the chair of the Beck Committee and I have been friends with all of the people who have directed it from Bob Booker to, oh, I can't remember his name, to Renee Kessler. We are real tight and I would go over there a lot more if I didn't have to go on that Alcoa Highway. But when they have special events, we're there. And Renee and Cato has things on a civic there and they have my book. I think they might have sold them cause I didn't see them the last time I was there a couple weeks ago. So we are very involved with Beck.
Adam McNeil: What does Our Place in Time: Blacks in Blount County, now that it's out, people are obviously raving, you've sound like you're nearing almost a thousand copies that you've sold since publication. What does this publication mean to you and your legacy as a Blount County resident from Alcoa? What does this mean for you and your family?
Shirley Carr Clowney: It's like a contribution from my heart to those who are coming after us so that they will have some history that might not be available anywhere else. So for me it's for future generations to know something about their heritage. That's kind of the way, I don't know if that's what you were.
Adam McNeil: No, no, that's perfect. That that's literally perfect. And you know, broached this a little bit, but going back to the park briefly do you feel, what kind of connection do you feel to the park?
Shirley Carr Clowney: I'm not sure what you are asking, but to me it's a historical, historical part of my life that is unusual, different from New Jersey in that it appeals to so many different kinds of people. And when you go up there in the summer, their cars are like, you know, could hardly go a mile in less than an hour. At one time I was asked to do a presentation in Townsend, what is the name of the building there that has historical stuff? And I can't remember now
Adam McNeil: There's there's ,couple museums, I can remember.
Shirley Carr Clowney: Okay. So Cato and I, Cato has had an exhibit there and I have delivered a message there. So we've had that kind of connection. It's so part of the Smoky Mountains, although it's in Townsend and we go up there periodically, there's a church there called Wilders that was here in Blount County. And that's where, in fact, I went there with another white guy that was working with me here at the library. We went there and dug out the, what do you call it, the brick that has information on it, the come on it will come to me. But anyway, they didn't know who had that church before. And some people were trying to buy it and we had to go prove that it was a part of the African-American community. The cornerstone. The cornerstone, the cornerstone. It was all covered up. And so Keith Teller and myself went and cleaned it out and took a picture of it. But actually they did not stay in that church long. They used it and they actually went to the courthouse and tried to get titled to it. As it turned out that didn't work. And they have now moved that building to Townsend and it's up there now. I think they use it for weddings and things like that. So the cemetery where that church was is where my grandparents are buried that we didn't know were there. So that that's a part of the history that has moved from one area to one where it has still been recognized so that it's called Wilder's, I think it's Wilder's Church.
Adam McNeil: And so in the short amount of time that we have left with you, when you think just about your legacy, we talked about it a bit with your book, but just generally speaking, right, like you've said, you're very much involved, been involved, and still currently are involved in so much the point where you have to say no to things when it's all said and done. What do you want your legacy to be here?
Shirley Carr Clowney: That I try to leave history for future generations that may not have been available in any other way than the way I have presented it. To preserve our history in pictures and in Word that will be easily understood by all. I have tried to make it so that anybody can understand it and hopefully appreciate it.
Adam McNeil: And one last question. Generally speaking, because I see you as someone with your hand on the heartbeat of Black Blount County, what do you think the current relationship is between the local African American community here in Blount County and the Great Smoky Mountains? Do you think that there needs to be improvement or is it good? What are your thoughts?
Shirley Carr Clowney: There is room for improvement. When we have the Martin Luther King celebration that usually start in Alcoa and march to Maryville College. There are many African Americans that will not leave Alcoa to come to Maryville College to celebrate Martin Luther King's life. You go there and they're mostly white people in the audience. Once when they had it in Alcoa and it was at the Alcoa High School, they went out, they were there. I have not been able to figure out why, except that they are in their comfort zone and don't want to get out and have not been taught or have not learned how to be involved, how to interact with people beside their own.
That has bothered me for a while. As a matter of fact, people in there ask me, where are you go to church? Because I'm not going to their churches because of what I told you. But now they're coming to me and asking me, where do you go to church? They know where I go to church. I don't know what their mindset is for doing that, but it's just started happening a lot within the last two or three months. Where do you go to church? Now, If Bethel is having something, I will get invited. I will go and St. John is having something. I get invited. Cause a matter of fact, they actually gave Cato and some kind of recognition, I can't remember exactly what it was, but they recognized us for the work that we're doing. So I can't find it. It bothers me that more people are not actively involved in our history, preserving it, sharing it, and I don't know how to address it. I have gone to almost all of the churches that have spoken at one time or another. The Methodist churches, the Baptist churches have been to almost all of them at one time or another about one subject or another. But they're just very different. Very different. So I don't know what question you asked me.
Adam McNeil: No. You reached it, you know, talked about what your legacy is and also just thinking about the connection to the park too. And it's it, you talk about the lack of extension with the King celebration and when it extends to Maryville, and I was surmised too. Do you think that they do African Americans in the community, do they get out to the Smokies as much as you hear?
Shirley Carr Clowney: Probably not. Yeah, I think I would hear more if that were true. They take bus trips to Knoxville to, there's a park over there. I can't remember the name of it, but that's the only place I hear of them going for picnics, for outings. So just very different that the mindset of the young people and older people is just different than what I've been accustomed to. They don't even take the newspaper. So whenever I'm doing something, I have to do flyers and disseminate them or get on the phone. I think both contact is my best way of getting people out so.
Adam McNeil: That, well, Ms. Clowney, is there anything else you think we should talk about or something that we (inaudible) or anything that you want to tell the people who will be watching it this oral history in a year, two years, 10 years, or however long this is going to be?
Shirley Carr Clowney: I'm getting old and tired and trying to figure out how I'm going to fit in. I was just going through a book that's done by the Maryville Times and just before you called me, this is what I was working on when you called me. My family, my younger sister, she's four years younger. She's deceased, he's deceased, he's deceased, he's still living and he's deceased and he just had a stroke and a brain stroke. So I'm having to help them. She's completely bed rest, completely. So I have those kinds of demands on my life now, in addition to what I'm doing, this is where they named the street for my father. This is when he was with the Alcoa Sluggers. But he played until they wanted to play on Sunday. And that's my mom. I have that now in my house, but it's on the street. So anyway, that's what I was doing when you called me and I did not remember that I had an appointment. I had not heard that. It's probably cause said, don't answer that phone you don't know who that is, so I have to do text. Yeah,
Adam McNeil: No problem at all. No problem at all. And well, we definitely thank you for taking the time out and especially on such short notice of you getting in your car and coming over here and like I said the folks who are going to be viewing this and the immediate future and in the long term, I think they're going to learn a lot about the local African American heritage here. And I'm glad that we were able to get you on and thank you for all that you've done. Hey. No, not at all. This is just like Kaya come at you as you are. So thank you so much.
[END OF TAPE 1]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
“We were the first three Blacks that enrolled into Maryville College after Brown V. Board,” Shirley Carr Clowney told the Great Smoky Mountains National Park’s oral history interviewer. Shirley Carr Clowney can remember when she and her two friends enrolled at Maryville College. She also recalls growing up in the old stone home that her father built on Hood Street and how her upbringing led her to research the history of African Americans in Blount County and become an author.