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Oral History Interview with Katherine Sawyer
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Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v. Board Oral History Collection, Topeka, Kansas School Segregation Desegregation Interviews. Brown v. Board of Education Court Case Interviews. Interviewee: Mrs. Katherine Sawyer. Interviewer: Oloye Ada-Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mrs. Sawyer in Davis Heights, Kansas on September 20, 2001. These inter-interviews are made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History Project. Mrs. Sawyer, what is your full name?
Katherine Sawyer: Katherine Sawyer.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your middle name?
Katherine Sawyer: Louise. I’m sorry.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your maiden name?
Katherine Sawyer: Carper.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthdate?
Katherine Sawyer: 2/24/41.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what—where were you born?
Katherine Sawyer: Here in Topeka.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what were your parents’ names?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, Lena and Dorsey Carper.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell your father’s name?
Katherine Sawyer: D-O-R-S-E-Y.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what did your-your father do for a living?
Katherine Sawyer: Well, he was the manager of the Kansan Hotel Laundry Department.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And your mother?
Katherine Sawyer: She did domestic work up until about, um, about in the early 60s, and then she started working for Menninger’s, Menninger’s Foundation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Katherine Sawyer: She was a seamstress.
Oloye Adeyemon: She was a seamstress. Yeah. The, um, your father and mother were both signers, petitioners of the, uh, Brown v. Board case or just your mom?
Katherine Sawyer: Just my mother.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And she signed your name as in [fading voice 02:06]—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - ‘cause she—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was there anyone else in your family that was involved in the case?
Katherine Sawyer: No, I’m an only child.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you were the only child-only-only one—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, I’m an only child.
Oloye Adeyemon: Only child.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what do you do for a living?
Katherine Sawyer: I’m a housewife.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And, um, you told me something interesting about, um, your husband and his, uh, business and what happened, and also something interesting about the location of your house, the property that you’re-you’re on. Uh, starting with your husband, uh, what does he do today for a living?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, he works at the Appraiser’s Office. He’s a supervisor for debit collectors at the Shawnee County Appraiser’s Office.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And was it he that-that had the salvage of his own?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, he did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. So, tell me about that, what-what he did before.
Katherine Sawyer: Before that, he worked at Goodyear.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Before he worked at the Appraiser’s Office.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, before he worked—bought the business, he worked—
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, he started off working at Goodyear.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, he worked at Goodyear.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did he do there?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, he was a supervisor in the truck tire department.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And he just wanted his own, and so he started talking with the gentleman who owned the salvage yard.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the name of that salvage yard, do you remember?
Katherine Sawyer: You know, I cannot remember.
Oloye Adeyemon: We’re gonna footnote the transcript.
Female Voice 1: Was it the Triple A?
Katherine Sawyer: Pardon?
Female Voice 1: Was it Triple A Salvage?
Katherine Sawyer: It may have been.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. we’re gonna footnote the transcript, so when I ask things that you aren’t prepared—
Katherine Sawyer: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to be specific about, it’s okay because we’re gonna—
Katherine Sawyer: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - have a footnote.
Katherine Sawyer: Um, and, uh, one of the—there were two partners at that time at that location, and, um, they—one of the partners agreed to let him see if he could get the backing and everything.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I think they had already planned to sell it, right?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: It was already up for sale.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I understand it was the largest or one of the largest.
Katherine Sawyer: It was a very large—
Oloye Adeyemon: In Topeka?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Salvage yard?
Katherine Sawyer: It was on Southwest 57th.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. In Kansas.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And so, he was successful in getting the—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - funding and stuff.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes. We bought the-the salvage yard, and, uh, it was not liked. [Laughs]
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, let me ask you something and then go back. You said one of the partners, what about the other one?
Katherine Sawyer: Yeah, he had two partners. Well, the other—one partner had, uh, told him that he went into agreement with my husband, and I guess he told his partner about it—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - of course.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And they agreed to wait to see if my husband could get, you know, the small business loan and everything.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: But he did tell us during that time that that was going on, that there was a certain someone that was trying to get him to back down on that offer he made my husband ‘cause he didn’t want my husband, of course, to have it. He wanted it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: But he had told him no, he’d given his word.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And so, they waited.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And you did get—and you—
Katherine Sawyer: We did get the salvage yard.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that?
Katherine Sawyer: Let me see.
Oloye Adeyemon: Approximately?
Katherine Sawyer: Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: In the 60s?
Katherine Sawyer: In the—no, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: 70s?
Katherine Sawyer: This was, uh, we quit in about ’86, so it was early 80s.
Oloye Adeyemon: Early 80s. Okay. So, it wasn’t-it wasn’t a long, long time ago.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Katherine Sawyer: [Laughs]
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you got it in the 80s.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And how did he do? How-how’d the business go?
Katherine Sawyer: We were doing really well, and I think one of the things that bothered some people was that, um, my husband closed his business ‘cause we observed Sabbath hours from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset so—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that for religious reasons?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what-what-what—
Katherine Sawyer: We’re Church of God Seventh Day.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And we had refused—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, Church of God Seventh Day?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is the name of your church that you went to?
Katherine Sawyer: Bible Church of God Seventh Day here in Topeka.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Um, we had completely closed.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And so therefore, they didn’t like it because my husband would open on Sunday, and—
Oloye Adeyemon: He would or would not?
Katherine Sawyer: He did.
Oloye Adeyemon: He did open—
Katherine Sawyer: And—
Oloye Adeyemon: - but he closed on Saturday.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And when we were opened on Sunday, it—the yard would be just loaded.
Oloye Adeyemon: With people.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because no one else was open on Sunday.
Katherine Sawyer: Right. Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And that caused quite a conflict, of course.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: No one really enjoyed that, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: But he had told them from the beginning that we would not work.
Oloye Adeyemon: On Saturday.
Katherine Sawyer: On Saturday.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, um, we were into about three or four years starting to really make that turnover by then.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Doing well.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And a whole bunch of stuff came out, and they, um, brought a lawsuit against my husband.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Who brought a lawsuit?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, well, it was—it had to be the district attorney.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And they came into the yard one day, and of course, we didn’t know what was going on, and they accused us of a lot of things. One of those things being, uh, buying cars without license.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Not true.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: The other one was, um, selling parts off of stolen cars and stuff, you know, selling—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - and cutting—chopping up car—chop shops.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: That’s what they call ‘em, and, uh, that was not true.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: But we had to go through a long court hearing—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - and we—
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you win it?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, uh, during that time—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it costly for you?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, goodness, yes. [Laughs]
Oloye Adeyemon: Were you closed at any point? Did they close you during that time, or were you—
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - able to stay open?
Katherine Sawyer: They—in fact, they—when they came in through the yard, they confiscated all of our day’s money and stuff that first time. We had to have a lawyer to get this money back.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And you—were you—are they able to do business while the trial was going on?
Katherine Sawyer: No, that—we were able to open—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - and have some of our trusted, you know, employees—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - uh, would carry on for us and—
Oloye Adeyemon: When you say carry on for us, you were carry on—and were able to carry on for yourselves?
Katherine Sawyer: While we were in court.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, every day. I see.
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, for about a-about a week—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - or more, but during this time, there was an offer made. My husband was in such stress.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: It’s hard to talk about. [Cries]
Female Voice 1: Oh, dear.
Katherine Sawyer: I’m sorry.
Female Voice 1: It’s all right.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s okay. That’s okay. So, would you like to go into a slower part of the interview?
Katherine Sawyer: [Laughs] Well, I just thought it’d be—
Oloye Adeyemon: But I thought that this was something that would help people to understand, uh, what your experiences had been.
Katherine Sawyer: I thought my husband would have a heart attack.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really? It was that stressful.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, it was terrible.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I guess it was all the more stressful ‘cause it was unexpected and untrue.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, and we had to sit in court and hear lies every day, and, uh, we had friends who would come into the courtroom and say, “Why are you here? This is stupid,” ‘cause they couldn’t believe the things they were saying, and they had no proof.
Oloye Adeyemon: None at all.
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, the case was won.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes. Yes, by Joe Donaldson 09:28—
Oloye Adeyemon: That was your lawyer?
Katherine Sawyer: - was our lawyer. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so, when the case—when the charges were dropped, was your husband—
Katherine Sawyer: No, getting it all the way through, we had to have a not guilty verdict was brought back.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you got a not guilty verdict.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was your husband able to go back to work and, you know, keep the—keep the—
Katherine Sawyer: Well, it was-was kind of the jury—
Oloye Adeyemon: - salvage yard?
Katherine Sawyer: - about the same time that we decided this really wasn’t worth it.
Oloye Adeyemon: ‘Cause of the stress.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: It was obvious to you at that point that someone or-or some people really didn’t want you to have it.
Katherine Sawyer: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Why was that?
Katherine Sawyer: Race, pure-dee race.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Was it competition in the salvage business or just many people who didn’t want to see—
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, there were other people that were, uh, in salvage that just didn’t, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you feel that-that it was the com-competition that he was providing or just race?
Katherine Sawyer: No, I don’t think it was competition. I think everybody was going about, you know—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you think it had more to do with race?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yeah, I’m sure it had to do more with race. It was-it was too big of a company. It was just too much for ‘em. They did not want us there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, tell us about Davis Heights—
Katherine Sawyer: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - which is where you are. You are really technically—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - not in Topeka.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, we are in Topeka.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, this is part of the city.
Katherine Sawyer: We are in the city. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, okay.
Katherine Sawyer: We are now. [Laughs]
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, but you weren’t then.
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Or-or it wasn’t then.
Katherine Sawyer: We’re right outside the city limits, I should say. It’s on [unintelligible 11:03] Road. We’re out—right outside.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you were—you are-you are a separate community.
Katherine Sawyer: But we are still—
Oloye Adeyemon: Connected—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in certain ways to the city.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Katherine Sawyer: Um, we came out here—some friends brought us over here. They were—they said they were selling land in this area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, uh, when they started selling the land off here in acres at first.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And that was down in the—that is Davis Heights, number one.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Up toward 21st.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, these are two subdivisions.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Davis Heights, number one—
Katherine Sawyer: One and this is two.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and Davis Heights number two.
Katherine Sawyer: And we’re in two. And they were selling ‘em off, and my husband wanted to come out here with some friends, and we did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And Mr. Davis was really a very nice man, and he knew most black people didn’t have money just to come out and buy land.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: But he would let you buy the land and pay him every month.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: You know, a small amount of money.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Katherine Sawyer: Just as long as you paid on it.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, then you didn’t have to go through the banks.
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: And not only was he willing to let you have some land, but he was willing to allow you to build on it even though you were still paying for it or—
Katherine Sawyer: No, we all up—when you, uh, we—most of these homes out here are what they call cap homes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, um, you—we had to get financing then, but you must know that in Topeka at that time, we built our home in about ’71.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Started that no one in town would loan anyone money, not if you were black and wanting to build a house.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: No, we had to go out of state.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. To get—
Katherine Sawyer: To get money. Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And you were successful.
Katherine Sawyer: To build. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, they took that financing on, uh, they, uh, the, uh, cap homestead.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, I understand that, um, Mr. Davis specifically, uh, was providing this land to blacks that wanted to own.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes. Yes, he did.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the history of the land itself?
Katherine Sawyer: All I know is that I don’t know how he acquired it.
Oloye Adeyemon: There was a lot of land then.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, it was a lot of land.
Oloye Adeyemon: And there’s two subdivisions.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: All the way through he wanted, he said he wanted black people to be able to have something.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you know if this was land that he bought or that had been in his family?
Katherine Sawyer: I have no idea—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - about that. I knew they had a home up there, an old farmhouse, and he used to farm all this land.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: I have no idea how long he farmed it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was—what was Mr. Davis’s full name?
Katherine Sawyer: Roy—
Oloye Adeyemon: Roy.
Katherine Sawyer: - Davis.
Oloye Adeyemon: And he was an older man at that time?
Katherine Sawyer: Yeah, he was by the time we saw him, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And the street is named after him?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, this one in front of me is Roy after him, and the one that goes around the back is Davis.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And the whole area is called Davis Heights—
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - after him.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. I wanted to, um, talk a little bit about, um, your experiences growing up and going to school in Topeka.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, before that though, uh, Topeka was segregated—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - during those years ‘cause we’re talking about the 40s and the 50s.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were some of the things that you remember as a child, let’s say, during around the time of the court case? What were some of the things that you remember, uh, experiencing where, you know, there was discrimination in the city at that time?
Katherine Sawyer: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: Other than the schools?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh-huh. Um, you couldn’t go to the 10 Cent Store even and sit down at the little lunch counters and eat. I know I think it was Crusty’s had, like, two or three little benches that was around the corner here that those were the only ones you could sit at if you wanted to eat. Other than that, you stood out, or they’d hand it to you, you know, but if there were white people sitting there, that’s—you’re just out of luck.
Oloye Adeyemon: You couldn’t sit at all.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And so, I remember that. And I remember we lived so far in the country, which is not in the country now, but, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where were you living at that time?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, on MacAlester 15:32.
Oloye Adeyemon: In what approximately [fading voice 15:35]?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, 12.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: 1200 back on MacAlester. Um, the, um, there were white families all around us. Now, when they—we’d play together, but when school started, they went to Gage, and I got bussed.
Oloye Adeyemon: What part of the city was that MacAlester?
Katherine Sawyer: On west side.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where was Gage School located?
Katherine Sawyer: Gage is right off of 10th Street, 10th and just 10th and Gage, isn’t it? No, it’s 10th and—hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you—
Katherine Sawyer: It’s kind of midway in town.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Going to town.
Oloye Adeyemon: And approximately how far from your home was the white school?
Katherine Sawyer: I would’ve went to Randolph, not to Gage. I would’ve went to Randolph.
Oloye Adeyemon: You said the children that you played with would go—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, uh-huh, that-that the children around me though went to Gage. I—that was just their preference, I guess, to where they wanted to go.
Oloye Adeyemon: But-but there was another white school called Randolph.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, one called Randolph—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - and that was—I’m just guessing, I’m-I’m gonna say maybe within, uh, six miles, and that’s kind of far. Yeah, ‘cause we lived out.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, the closest elementary school to you—
Katherine Sawyer: Probably was five or six miles.
Oloye Adeyemon: This was the white school.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. If it was five or six miles, how far was the school you went to?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, gee. [Laughs] It must have been a good 15, 20.
Oloye Adeyemon: Miles?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: A day?
Male Voice 1: No.
Katherine Sawyer: You don’t think so? How far do you think it was, Jeff?
Male Voice 1: If I didn’t know any better than [unintelligible 17:10].
Oloye Adeyemon: Please.
Male Voice 2: Randolph was only about a mile and that’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: How far would-would, um, the, uh, school that—what school—
Katherine Sawyer: The Buchanan.
Male Voice 2: Buchanan.
Oloye Adeyemon: Buchanan, how far would it have been from where she lived?
Male Voice 2: Probably about—
Female Voice 2: Would it have been about three miles one way?
Male Voice 2: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now—
Male Voice 2: That’s stretching it that way.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, how did you get to school?
Katherine Sawyer: On the—well, there were city buses, not like you see today, the school buses. They were city buses—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - that, I guess, were designated to take kids.
Oloye Adeyemon: For transportation, but these buses would have to stop and pick up other children.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes, all-all of that—
Oloye Adeyemon: So how long a ride was this?
Katherine Sawyer: Gee, I have no idea how—I’m—I know it had—well, we were stopping and going and stopping and going, you know. I’m sure we must have at least half an hour or 45 minutes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And this is something that you had been doing the whole time you were in elementary school?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, there was no possibility of you coming home for lunch this year.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: That was out of the question.
Katherine Sawyer: No, that was out of the question.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, I understand that it was—there were only four schools, black school designated in the city and segregated.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: But that in Kansas, there was a law that gave cities over a certain population the option of separating the elementary students, but in smaller communities in the rural areas that black children went to school with white children.
Katherine Sawyer: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, another thing that I think is unique about Kansas and makes it different than South Carolina, Virginia, Delaware, and DC, which were the other states that were involved in the solid case that went to the Supreme Court was that you went to integrated junior high schools and high schools in Topeka.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, we did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So going back to this elementary school, uh, during the time that you were in school other than, uh, your familiarity with the court case or what people have told you about the court case, uh, were you yourself aware of any differences between your school and the other school? Did you have any knowledge about what was going on at the white school?
Katherine Sawyer: No, I didn’t.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: I, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: You knew what the school looked like.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did it compare with your school outside the building itself?
Katherine Sawyer: They-they were just brick. They are—
Oloye Adeyemon: They’re both—
Katherine Sawyer: Yeah, the same.
Oloye Adeyemon: And similar?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, my school was brick also.
Oloye Adeyemon: And it was also brick.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, do you know or remember anyone saying whether your books that you received were new or used books that had come from the white school?
Katherine Sawyer: No. I-I—
Oloye Adeyemon: You don’t remember?
Katherine Sawyer: I—the only thoughts that I have of that would’ve been as I grew older. I know my mother would get my books for me, so they were not just handed to us from another school ‘cause I know she paid for them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What did you think about the teachers and the teaching?
Katherine Sawyer: I didn’t have anything else to compare them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. As an adult, and as a mother, what do you think looking back at the teachers you had and the way it was taught?
Katherine Sawyer: I think they were good teachers, some of them, and we had some teachers who weren’t as good as others. Uh, I know mine, just speaking for myself, I told my husband so many times I did not learn my, um, numeral, letters. Why? I don’t know, [laughs] you know, but I told him, he couldn’t believe me because he’s from a small town.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: He always was integrated in the schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you find that in comparison, did you—do—in reflecting back, would you say that the, uh, classrooms were more or less disciplined, children were—
Katherine Sawyer: I—
Oloye Adeyemon: - more or less behaved?
Katherine Sawyer: I think in the-in the school, in my school anyway, we had a very strong women, most—I don’t think that there were any men except Mr. Ross when I was in the fifth and sixth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they have discipline problems, particularly with the boys?
Katherine Sawyer: No, I don’t think so because Miss Montgomery was the principal there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And she was quite a task master. [Laughs]
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: She would take them in hand when—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: No, not in the classroom. No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you-do you think that, um, the-the attitudes of parents then about their children’s education might have contributed to the discipline? ‘Cause that’s something that many teachers complain about today, somewhere along the line that—
Katherine Sawyer: Parents don’t care anymore. Are they not—
Oloye Adeyemon: As involved?
Katherine Sawyer: They-they’re not as involved maybe.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: ‘Cause I know I’m after my children all the time about being involved—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - and not letting someone else make decisions for their children’s education—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - when they should.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Before we talk about what you remember of the court case, what occurred when you went to junior high school? Now, the school was integrated.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What junior high school was that?
Katherine Sawyer: I went to one now defunct. It was Katherine 22:37 Junior High on Hope Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: And how far was that from your home?
Katherine Sawyer: Um, that was probably about a mile, but when I got to there, I had a whole another story going on then.
Oloye Adeyemon: What happened differently?
Katherine Sawyer: Because there was only me and one other—two other boys. There was me and two boys.
Oloye Adeyemon: That were black students?
Katherine Sawyer: Black. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And no black teachers?
Katherine Sawyer: No. Oh, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: So that was still going on.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was that experience like?
Katherine Sawyer: It-it was scary at first.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And then there were, uh, two girls that moved over in this direction, and they lived in an apartment house.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And so, then I had two girls to talk with, but they didn’t stay there real long.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was the environment like? I mean were you well received, or was there hostility?
Katherine Sawyer: I think they—I think they ignored us mostly.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: There was some kids, you know, that would say hi to you, and I had a teacher that was—
Oloye Adeyemon: But it was a much different atmosphere than when you first started?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes. I mean I come from a place where I had never had a white teacher before, never been to school with white kids.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How did you do in that environment edu—in terms of your education?
Katherine Sawyer: I can remember it was a struggle. It was a real struggle because, like I said, I don’t know if it wasn’t taught or if it was me who didn’t get it, you know, but, yes, I had troubles, especially math.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you find that the white teachers were as able to help you or spend as time with you and your schoolwork as the black teachers?
Katherine Sawyer: I think that I had one who didn’t care if we never got it, and they would have—
Oloye Adeyemon: And was this a teacher that just was a poor teacher, or she was doing—
Katherine Sawyer: I think she was—she didn’t-she didn’t care for us black kids, period. That’s what—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, not all the teachers felt that way but there were some that did.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yeah, and then I had, um, a math teacher who was also my homeroom teacher.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, um, he was very helpful.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Was-was your experience in junior high pretty similar to your experience in high school?
Katherine Sawyer: Well, I think it was just harder because I was separated really from all my friends.
Oloye Adeyemon: In junior high.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, and these were—
Oloye Adeyemon: Why so-why so?
Katherine Sawyer: Just reaching of where I lived.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because you had come such a distance, you ended up going to a different junior high school than them.
Katherine Sawyer: Right, right. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you went to Topeka High.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was that experience like?
Katherine Sawyer: Well, it was like being let out of jail for me [laughs] ‘cause I was—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you were more comfortable ‘cause you—
Katherine Sawyer: Well, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - were around people that you had been in elementary school.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, I’d been there with the—
Oloye Adeyemon: ‘Cause that was the only high school in Topeka.
Katherine Sawyer: No, there was still—Highland Park was still here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, but all the students that you had known went to Topeka.
Katherine Sawyer: Yeah. Most, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, with the, uh, schools being integrated, the junior high and high school level, were there ways in which within the school there was segregation?
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: No. So, blacks and whites pretty much were able to take advantage of the same opportunities.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, I—well, the only thing I can think of that I have always felt was even in high school, though, that most black students didn’t get the real benefit of a counselor to help you, like, plan your, uh, future.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: I never saw a counselor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Never?
Katherine Sawyer: Never.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Never in junior high nor high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. So, what did you do after you graduated from high school?
Katherine Sawyer: I got married [laughs]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - right out of high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And have you worked?
Katherine Sawyer: No, I just was substituted for a little while once in a while for, uh, Dr. Spearman.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Who was that?
Katherine Sawyer: He was a physician here in town.
Oloye Adeyemon: You said you substituted?
Katherine Sawyer: For his, uh, the girl who worked for him. She was a nurse—
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, okay.
Katherine Sawyer: - and she—
Oloye Adeyemon: Assisting him in the office.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, and so when she needed to be at home or something—
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Katherine Sawyer: - sometimes I’d go there.
Oloye Adeyemon: You had children in the schools.
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, not in 501. I had—my oldest daughter was in town in 501 until she was about in the fifth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, 501 is the major school district—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that covers Topeka.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: ‘Cause some of Topeka’s in another school district though, right?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, she—you had one child there—
Katherine Sawyer: And in grade school.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but she didn’t go through that the whole time.
Katherine Sawyer: Not the whole time, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Where’d your other children go?
Katherine Sawyer: Out here at 437 at—they started out at Wanamaker—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Katherine Sawyer: - Grade School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And then—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you’re in-in a school district that covers some of Topeka but also covers Davis Heights?
Katherine Sawyer: No. We are part of Topeka. We’re just outside the city limits.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand, but this school district is not the main—
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - school. Okay.
Katherine Sawyer: No. 437 is now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And what ha—would you say your children experienced as being in comparison to yours as far as their education experiences?
Katherine Sawyer: I think it was harder for my oldest daughter ‘cause she was in a school where there were a lot more black children at, you know, it was a mix, but a lot more black children. Um, it wasn’t as hard on the others because they weren’t used to anything else.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, you’re saying she started off with that experience, but then it changed—
Katherine Sawyer: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and it difficult for her—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the same way it’d been difficult for you—
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in junior high school.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: In terms of their education, how would you say it compares today with what you got?
Katherine Sawyer: I think they probably had a much better education.
Oloye Adeyemon: Today?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Would you say that the discipline is less today than it was then in terms of the classroom?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes. I think so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that a problem?
Katherine Sawyer: [Laughs] I-I have grandchildren in the school district now. Um, I see things that I think that I don’t understand why.
Oloye Adeyemon: Such as?
Katherine Sawyer: Well, I just don’t think that, uh, they have enough control over what’s going on.
Oloye Adeyemon: The teachers, you mean?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Children—
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you think that control is lost?
Katherine Sawyer: I think the government took it away from all those people by telling them things, like they teach the children in schools today, if your parents spank you—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - you’re gonna tell, you can talk, you know, and so most parents are today not the same disciplinary people that I know I got spanked.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: You know, my kids got spanked.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Are there other things in terms of the curriculum itself that you—that concern you, either something that isn’t being taught or the way that things are being taught?
Katherine Sawyer: I can’t tell you what is really going on now other than seeing my grandchildren, you know, going back and forth to school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: I’ve had a daughter has taken her son out of this district and put him in private school.
Oloye Adeyemon: And her reasons?
Katherine Sawyer: He wasn’t learning.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And they didn’t care.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I wanna talk a little bit about the court case, but before we do, I’d like for you to help-help us understand what it was about your mother that had her, uh, get involved. ‘Cause I understand from something that you said when we started that there were a lot of people who, uh, were afraid of losing their jobs because of their involvement with the case.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm. Well, for one thing, my mother did domestic work, and I guess she felt like she could go get another job. You know, someone wouldn’t care—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - at that time, she was doing domestic work.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How did you find out that people were afraid of losing their jobs? Did she tell you that?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, yes, she told me that when this all came down to the last little thing of who was gonna be there, you know. It had to be someone brave enough.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you ever accompany her to any of the meetings?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, but, you know, I can just remember me and Nancy playing around, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who’s Nancy?
Katherine Sawyer: Nan-Nancy Todd.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was she another of the children involved?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes. Miss-Miss Todd, we used to go to her house and have meetings, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was her mother’s name?
Katherine Sawyer: Uh, Lucinda.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And we played a lot, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But you were aware that they were going through a process of selecting people, and that was one of the considerations who-who might—
Katherine Sawyer: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - not be as likely to lose their job?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, that’s what my mother has told me later, you know. When I was coming up, you know, children didn’t sit in the room—
Oloye Adeyemon: Sure.
Katherine Sawyer: - and listen to adults talk—
Oloye Adeyemon: Sure.
Katherine Sawyer: - like they do now, you know, so, and she’s told me that in later.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you ever in any of those meetings meet the lawyers? Do you remember any of them?
Katherine Sawyer: I don’t remember meeting them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, your first memory of the lawyers was in the courtroom?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes, and I couldn’t even tell you who that was at the time.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Right, ‘cause you were only about 10.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, you of the chil—the infant—they call it infant plaintiffs that had been put on the, uh, complaint that was filed in the federal district court in Topeka—
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you were the only one of those children to testify.
Katherine Sawyer: As far as I know.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’ve heard that.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: You know, I’ve read that. Um, do you know why you were the only child to testify?
Katherine Sawyer: I have no idea why.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you know you were gonna testify before that day that you testified in the courtroom or wherever beforehand?
Katherine Sawyer: I don’t recall there being a whole bunch said to me anyway about it. My mother just told me that we were gonna go there, and I supposed they were gonna ask me questions about school and riding the bus.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And she—
Oloye Adeyemon: She said they would be asking you questions.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And she—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that at home when she told you that?
Katherine Sawyer: I really don’t recall. All I know is that we went there and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Were you afraid that day?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, um, it just looked like a huge place to me, and the thing—and it was just packed with people.
Oloye Adeyemon: I know the courtroom had to be packed.
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yes. I knew it was—there was just tons of people it looked like to me, you know, and it looked like a long aisle to walk up there—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - to get up—
Oloye Adeyemon: To sit in that high chair.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, and sit in that chair. Yes. That seemed a long ways—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - and I don’t recall being afraid because I guess I didn’t understand fully—
Oloye Adeyemon: What the significance was.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, what that would all mean to someone. I can only remember afterwards—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - of being frightened of what was going—I—this was probably from listening to adults, you know, of what would happen when I went back to school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, do you remember anything about what was asked of you and what you said?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes, I can remember being asked about, uh, where I caught the bus, and, uh, I walked quite a ways to get to the bus, and at that time, it was mud straight there, just, you know. I mean if I tried to ride a bicycle, I wasn’t getting’ far if it was raining, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: It was mud, and my mother if she had time, sometimes when it was terribly bad, used to drive me to the stop—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - and wait with me in the car.
Oloye Adeyemon: To the bus stop.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And sometimes she couldn’t do that though, and I’d stand out there in the rain or the—it would be so cold.
Oloye Adeyemon: With the-with the distance you had to travel and the time that had to be allowed, did you ever leave during the dark or come back when it was dark?
Katherine Sawyer: I don’t recall that happening.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you told them about the-the muddy streets and—
Katherine Sawyer: And waiting.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the distance and waiting.
Katherine Sawyer: And the buses were really crowded. If you were picked up early, of course, you got a seat. If you weren’t, you were standing.
Oloye Adeyemon: That whole time?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Because we would be really full by the time we got over to the school.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, buses were provided but not necessarily adequate buses for the children.
Katherine Sawyer: Right, right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And again, in the evening, there would be, like, four or five buses lined in front of the school, and you would know which one of those buses we were—the number on it, you know, which one you were going to ride.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And the bad thing about the ride home was sometimes Miss Montgomery would—
Oloye Adeyemon: The principle?
Katherine Sawyer: - yes, would ride with us as far as Boswell and then from Buchanan Street to Boswell, and then she would get off the bus at Boswell, and there would be no other adult on that bus but—
Oloye Adeyemon: The rest of the way.
Katherine Sawyer: - but the driver.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Havoc.
[Laughter]
It was just havoc after that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Kids would fight. They’d be rolling in the aisles. You’d think the bus driver would stop them. No, you know, he’d just let ‘em fight it out. He didn’t care and that’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. This was a white bus driver?
Katherine Sawyer: Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were there black bus drivers?
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what, uh, I understood you wanted, you know, there was some fear, but wh—do you have any ideas your mother ever shared or anything about—I understand the fear, but did she ever share anything about what made her willing to do that or, you know, because not—I understand that not everybody especially, uh, teachers and relatives of teachers was in support of the case because they were afraid that when the schools integrated—
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - it would just be like the junior high schools and high schools, there’d be no black teachers.
Katherine Sawyer: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, what-what-what was—what-what made her different than some of the people that might have thought the schools needed to change, but had concerns for various reasons about, you know, taking the school district on in court?
Katherine Sawyer: My mother also come from a small town, Hiawatha 36:30, Kansas.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: She had no segregation when she went to school, see?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: So, to her this was foreign territory.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, um, I assumed she really didn’t think this was what she—it didn’t happen to her, so she was not fond of the way it was going here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, uh, my grandparents lived down the street from Mrs. Todd and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Who was another plaintiff in this case.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: From-from—and her and my mother talked a lot about these things.
Oloye Adeyemon: You overheard them.
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And, um, like I said, Nancy and I were good friends. We grew up together, you know, ‘cause my mother worked, and I stayed with my grandmother, and Nancy and I used to play every day together, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And so, I assumed that her and Miss Todd talked a lot about what was going on, and Miss Todd had been a teacher at one time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Here in Topeka system?
Katherine Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, you-you have a sense that sh—because she had not experienced it herself, it was not status quo for her.
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: It might have been status quo for some of the people who lived in Topeka.
Katherine Sawyer: The others certainly.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they might have been as inclined—
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to want to see a change if somebody that didn’t—had never experienced that, and so they didn’t feel that—had had an idea what it was like not to have it.
Katherine Sawyer: I think that you’re right when you say that it was just—that’s—they accepted it, but I’m not sure as they didn’t want it to change. I think it was a frightening thing—
Oloye Adeyemon: The fear. Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - to change. It’s frightening for anyone.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: So, I think that it was, uh, that, and there were—their loss of their jobs, their income—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Katherine Sawyer: - their families taking care of ‘em. Yeah, I think it became down to that and not a matter of not wanting to, but the fear that they thought they had.
Oloye Adeyemon: Sure. What was the reaction of the people at school after word got around that you were involved in that way?
Katherine Sawyer: You know, I never noticed any different.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: If there was a difference, it wasn’t exactly directed at me.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you feel that people at school knew that you were involved?
Katherine Sawyer: Well, I know the teachers had to have known. I’m not sure about their kids, you know. They—
Oloye Adeyemon: But you—it didn’t—you didn’t—it didn’t affect—
Katherine Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: That was one of their fears, but you didn’t—it didn’t—
Katherine Sawyer: Yeah, I-I felt that way because I heard the adults talking. That’s-that’s all, but, no, I didn’t feel it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Looking back at it, you know, what are your reflections, you know, having not really at that time made that decision to be a part of that, but what do you think about the impact that it’s had, and do you feel that there are still things that remain problems even with [fading voice 39:25]?
Katherine Sawyer: Um, I, um, believe that it did some good. It got our children into places that maybe they never would have gotten into. Some of the “better” schools in different areas because some of our schools probably were not up to snuff.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Um, but I think there’s probably a lot more to be addressed.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What areas do you feel or do you have any particular areas that you can identify that you feel—and I’m not just talking about the schools but just—
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - race relations in general?
Katherine Sawyer: I just think that things are done a lot subtler today—
Oloye Adeyemon: In those schools? In what way?
Katherine Sawyer: - than, um, they used to be done, you know. Um, this is a school thing. Um, I have a friend who does not live out here now, but she has a daughter that was going to school here at Wanamaker, too, and the prin—uh, she told me her little girl came home one day and said, um, you know, um, “The janitor always says, ‘Hi, Sunshine,’” derogatory to us as black people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And her mother just about hit the ceiling.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And she went back, and she told her daughter, “Next time he says it to you, you tell him that your mother named you Stacy, please call you that. Your name’s not Sunshine.” And there’s little things, and when we went down to enroll the kids, what would we hear? You people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Who needs that? We had names.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: And this is even after we’ve been there for maybe three or four years.
Oloye Adeyemon: There’s still many people—
Katherine Sawyer: What do you mean? We’re still you people, you know. That-that’s sort of the little subtle—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - things, you know, that goes on. They think that’s okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Yeah. I don’t know. One of my daughters wanted to be in a TG program out here at Washman Rule, and the first year she didn’t get it, but she was so angry. That’s a singing group, a little—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - elite little singing group, and she wanted in there so bad, and she didn’t make it. She said, “Mom, they have a talent show every year out to Washman.” She said, “I’m gonna be in that talent show, and I’m gonna show ‘em,” and she did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: She was in there the next two years.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What do you think can be done to resolve some of these legal problems?
Katherine Sawyer: I think that sometimes our children are not really aware of—I have a son [laughs] who’s the youngest of my four. Um, he does not see what I or his father may see—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: - because he’s—this is what he’s lived with all his life from kindergarten clear through college even, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Um, there are little subtle things that he often doesn’t see as a race problem.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, obviously as-as, you know, a people suffering through that, black people have become able to, um, both insulate themselves and also challenge certain things, but I guess the other side of that is—‘cause I-I think that this particular case had the potential to help everybody.
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: It wasn’t just something to help black people because part of being educated is learning to live with other people—
Katherine Sawyer: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and if you’re in a school with-with people of diverse backgrounds and be—
Katherine Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, what can be done do you think to change some of the attitudes of the whites who may still, uh, without good reason object to being in school with blacks or blacks being successful in business or however it might be?
Katherine Sawyer: I think that sometimes we don’t give each other a chance to know the other person. Sometimes we just go on the way they look, the way they dress, the way they sound, and they decide I don’t want you around. I know when I—
Oloye Adeyemon: That can’t be legislated, can it?
Katherine Sawyer: No, no, and you can’t do that, and I don’t like the word tolerate.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: [Laughs] I don’t wanna be tolerated. I wanna be accepted for who I am.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Katherine Sawyer: Don’t tolerate me because somebody tells you you must tolerate. I don’t like that word.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you for sharing this with us. How are you, sir?
Male Voice 2: I’m just fine.
Description
Katherine Sawyer was born in Topeka, Kans., in 1941. Her parents were Dorsey and Lena Carper, who had just one child. Sawyer was a plaintiff in the Brown v. Board case attending Buchanan elementary at the time. She was the only child to testify in the Brown v. Board case about her experiences.
Credit
NPS
Date Created
04/10/2024
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