Audio
Iva Young
Transcript
Haller: (001) [My name is] Stephen Haller, Park Historian for Golden Gate National Recreation Area, and I am here at the Maritime Museum Library in Fort Mason on June 14, 1995, with Iva Young. Iva is retired First Sergeant in the United States Army, and was the Flight Operations Sergeant at Crissy Army Airfield from 1964 to 1968. We are taping this interview for the archives of Golden Gate National Recreation Area; and Iva, I understand that I have your permission to make this recording, and for the National Park Service to retain all literary property rights to this recording. Is that correct?
Young: (006) That's correct, Steve.
Haller: (009) Well, thanks very much for being here today. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Why don't we start out by telling a little bit about yourself and your family background and youth. Can you do that for us?
Young: (012) Sure. Uh, I was born and raised on a farm back in Wisconsin, and come from a background of farm families. My great -my great -my grandparents as it were came from Germany and settled in the homesite which was our homesite for years and years and years. I went to high school in my home town, small community, one high school class, consisted of eight girls and one boy. If you think that wasn't an interesting class!
Haller: (016) I can well imagine! [Laughter]
Young: (018) [Laughter] Anyway, finished high school. I worked for a few years, and I had decided right after I got out of school that I was interested in going into the Army. 'Course, going to high school during the World War II days, and my folks always made sure that the kids were up to date on the news and this type of thing - I guess that makes me a news junkie to this day - but I was always interested in this. However, in that day and age, women had to be 21 to get in the service, so I had to wait 2-1/2 years.
Haller: (025) So, what day and age was that when you joined the Army?
Young: (026) So, I was 21, in '50 -early on in '50.
Haller: (026) 1950.
Young: (027) And, uh, joined up, didn't have to have the permission of anybody, I'm a legal citizen now, I can do what I want ... But anyway, I joined up, went to Fort Lee, Virginia, which was at that time the basic training assignment, and took my basic training. Stayed there for a while on an assignment; went to Fort Meade, Maryland. I always have been interested in transportation, that's been another factor in my whole career. So, I got in the motor pool, drove - everywhere -loved every minute of it, worked my way up through the ranks in the motor pool. Then I went overseas to France, to Orleans, and got into Transportation and Movements, movements of personnel and supplies and all that kind of good stuff. It was a very interesting tour. My first time out of the country, and it was quite an experience to go to France. Coming from a German background, this was … this was an eye-opener. It was a good duty. Left there, came back to the States, to New York. I was stationed in Brooklyn Army Terminal, right in the heart of New York. And meantime, I had re-enlisted twice. Stayed in New York, worked at the Brooklyn Army Terminal for quite a length of time, and then I spent a short tour as an Army representative in the Air Force at McGuire Air Force Base. I was there about a year. I then went back overseas to Stuttgart, Germany. More Transportation. There I picked up another rank and I was an NCO in the Movements and Control Office in Stuttgart, for the – Southern German Command. Again, a very interesting tour. I loved to go there, and I go back every once in a while when I have a chance. Left Germany, and come out to the Presidio. Initially, I was assigned to the XVth Corps, which at that time was - oh, like the Reserve, oversight of the Reserve Command. I got here and there were some changes made in assignments.
Haller: (056) So you got to the Presidio in 1964?
Young: (057) Yes. I got to the Presidio in 1964.
Haller: (057) How do you feel that your service career was influenced by the fact that you were a woman? How did that affect it?
Young: (059) As far as my duties?
Haller: (060) Were you limited? Did you feel limited in your assignments? Did you feel …
Young: (061) I didn't feel limited in assignment, because I was doing every place I ever went I was always doing what I wanted to do. There were many more restrictions on women in the service at that point in time, even up until the ... oh my goodness, even into the '70s there were still restrictions. It's pretty lenient now, there are only just a few MOSs or activities that women cannot serve in, mainly combat, and even that's beginning to ease off.
Haller: (068) Uh huh. Now, "MOS" is "Military Occupation Specialty"?
Young: (069) Military Occupational Specialty. So, as far as being a woman in the service after World War II, there were still a lot of women there; and in fact, during the Korean build up and just before I retired, there was - the Women's service - Women's Army Corps service, that is - was good sized.
Haller: (074) Were the outfits that you were in, these transportation outfits, integrated in terms of the sexes then?
Young: (076) I always was with a mixed unit. The billeting was always separate. It wasn't until just a few years ago that they made billeting co-ed. We were always billeted separately. For example, when I was in Germany, the women were quartered with the ... well, I think it was the 75th Station Hospital when I was first there. And probably had one of the finest buildings built in the United States Army for our billets. It was fantastic. That made the whole assignment for me. It was beautiful. An 11-story building, looked out over the city of Stuttgart. It was pretty nice. We were just attached there; I was not in the Hospital, per se, I was just attached there for billeting, because women had to be billeted together, they couldn't be billeted separately, or co-ed. So, that would be the main factor. Otherwise, all of the units were always together, man and woman. I worked almost always with men, and as I went up through the ranks, I had men working for me - some fantastic guys. I worked for some fantastic guys.
Haller: (091) Did you feel ... it sounds like ... you feel that your career and the work that you were able to do was just judged on the basis of merit? Is that a correct assumption?
Young: (094) That's right. That's right. You also have to remember - I'm not exactly the ... what do I want to call it -The - "Queen-of-the- Army" - not exactly. – I’m a little bit on the rough side, being a farm kid; I know how to work and I know how to take command and I know how to give command. Like I said, a person can make or break their own, but for myself, I never had any problems.
Haller: (099) It sounds like you were able to fit right in, and you were really cut out for it.
Young: (101) It was my life. I loved it. I really did. It isn’t everybody who can do it. But I enjoyed it.
Haller: (102) How did you get into the aviation branch? And tell me, what kind of Military Occupational Specialty was that?
Young: (104) Well, I can't give you the numbers any more, because I can't remember them ...
Haller: (105) That's not ...
Young: (105) ...and they've changed a lot since then, but Army Aviation which -not to confuse it with Air Force - Army Aviation was in fact a rather small complex and a small part of the United States Army at that point in time, and then later built up as Korea became big; and Vietnam, of course - that was the thing, Vietnam. The jobs involved here were operations; training; maintenance, of course. Here at the Presidio, we did all our own maintenance except for upper echelon maintenance. It was all done right here on site. Traffic Control Dispatch, administrative - there always has to be administrative help somewhere - somebody has to do the typing.
Haller: (116) Was Army Aviation considered a separate corps - arm of the service - or was it part of the Transportation corps?
Young: (117) Initially, it was integrated in other parts of the Army, and I can't recall exactly how it went now ... at one time, it was part of Artillery, as I recall, and Transportation, and then Aviation became its own separate entity. And this was particularly good for the officers, because this put them in a branch, and they didn't have to contend - or they didn't have to compete - with other branches. As far as the enlisted, it was helpful, too, because we now had special MOS's that earmarked us as being aviation trained.
Haller: (126) And now, that had been the case during the time period when you were at Crissy Field. So, how did you come to be assigned to Crissy Field? Was that just one of the mysteries of the Army bureaucracy?
Young: (128) No, that was one of the few times when I probably maneuvered a little bit on my own. I was here at the Presidio in Transportation – worked right here, just down the street from where you are there, for a long time. I was excess, surplus to the Transportation office and I had decided, “Ah, I gotta get out of this.” Our office was right there at the end of the runway. I used to sit there at lunch time and watch the airplanes and helicopters. So I put in for Flight Operations training. And got it. Which was probably one of the very few times I got what I really wanted. Went to Fort Rucker, which was the center of Army Aviation, did my training, and came back. And when I got back here to the Presidio, which was Post Presidio at that time, there was an opening in Sixth Army Aviation Flight Detachment and I walked right into it. Bingo. Just like that. Great.
Haller: (143) Was it normal to be assigned to stateside duties after a tour of duty in Germany?
Young: (144) Oh, yeah.
Haller: (144) Or a couple of tours ...
Young: (145) As a general rule, once you are overseas--as a general rule now--you usually come stateside.
Haller: (147) So that's how you ended up at the Presidio ...
Young: (147) I ended up at the Presidio on a normal assignment with a different corps, and then was later transferred over to the Post itself, and then I was excess, and that's when I said, "No, I gotta do something different," and that's how I got here.
Haller: (150) What was Operations training? What did it cover?
Young: (150) Dispatching. Dispatching of aircraft, handling of records, radio communications…oh, maintaining equipment. Records and dispatching of aircraft, maintaining records of aircraft is a full-time job. Depending on the operation, somebody has to be there all the time, you see. You had to be on your toes. You had to work with the maintenance people. I stayed in Operations then for some time, and then a position opened up with the Flight Detachment for Flight Simulator Training. I put in for it – got it! Went back to Fort Rucker – that was a long session. That was a long, rough session, but good fun – enjoyable. Difficult, but enjoyable. I came back out here to Presidio – I was still assigned – still assigned to Flight Detachment. Came right back out here. And then we got back into the Flight Simulator Trainer. We had a blue box here for a long, long time that they didn’t use very much. They didn’t have anybody to use it.
Haller: (168 )What's the blue box?
Young: (169) The Link Trainer. I started doing some training – refresher training… and then there was… Well, there’s always a problem with personnel in the United States Army – I don’t care where they are. One day, you’ll have 15 people – 15 too many people, and the next day you’ll have 10 – you’re short 10. And this is what happened over in Operations. All of a sudden the Flight Operations sergeant and one of the dispatchers was gone -nobody was corning in, and I was back over in Operations, and then kinda fluctuated between the two positions. And then I got one of my own dispatchers and got him off to school. He came back to Training, and I stayed right there in Operations.
Haller: (181) Now, the trainer, this Link Trainer was in Building 639? The Flight Operations building?
Young: (182) Well, the building was ... the little building behind the hangar. It’s still there. I know it’s still there. It was attached to the hangar.
Haller: (184) In the same building as the Operations?
Young: (185) No, it was the hangar.
Haller: (185) Oh, attached to the hangar. Okay…
Young: (185) It was a little building in the back ...
Haller: (186) It's called Building 641.
Young: (187) I can't remember the numbers now. Yeah, it was numbered a separate building, I know that; but it was attached to the hangar, you could go through the hangar. That's where it was.
Haller: (189 ) And the hangar we're talking about now, just for the sake of clarity, is the one near the Operations building, and near the Flight Tower, correct? [ ed note: reference to "hangar" is to Building 640]
Young: (192) The tower was on the east end, the Flight Operations and the Company building was the low, onestory building that went toward the hangar. The hangar set just a little bit off - offset a little bit from the Operations, and behind that was this attached building, that you're calling 641 ... which is where this Link Trainer was.
Haller: (198) What does the Link come from in your training? Is that someone's name?
Young: (199) That's the manufacturer. And I ... what's the word I want to use? The gentleman who developed this particular system - this is long, long, long before there was electronics as we know it in this day and age; most of it was mechanical. It was a real neat little outfit to work with. I enjoyed working with it.
Haller: (204) Now, this is essentially a flight simulator ...
Young: (205) A flight simulator.
Haller: (205) Okay. So, the point is to familiarize someone with what it's like to be behind the controls of an aircraft before they actually leave the ground?
Young: (208) Well, it's used in training, in aviation flight training and basic flight training. But also bear in mind that the new ones now are just like airplanes in this day and age -they're just exactly like an airplane. That wasn't quite that way. You had to use a little imagination. But what we used it for here at Crissy was continuous training for people that instrument train. Remember, the aviators here are all trained -most of them have combat, most of them have been to 'Nam, and many of them had been through the War – through World War II. So, flying was nothing. They could fly the livin’ dickens out of just about anything they were qualified to fly. But, there were times when you needed refresher this or a new system was being worked on, or we were setting up a new approach in an area and we'd crank it in and say, "Well, let's try it out." They didn't fly instruments all the time -although there was instrument flying getting out of here most of the time. So, if you don’t fly that much, you tend to get a little rusty. The basis for it was just to keep people fresh.
Haller: (228) Basically, it's a compart ... it's like the cockpit of an aircraft, correct?
Young: (229) The Link was, like I said, it took a little imagination, but you got the basic feel. The Link could be used either open -the top could be open, and you could just watch the instruments you're working with, the instruments in front of you -the Link had a joystick -control stick -it didn't have a wheel to control it. Then, for real, honest-to-goodness instrument work, it had a sliding top on it. You could close it up and you're encased in there, just as if you were in the clouds. And now, from there on in you go fly, and watching it down here was what we used to call the "bug" -a little electrical unit that was attached to the simulator and sat on a table about the size of this desk -this is a standard size desk we're looking at -and it had a glass top, another glass top, with maps of different areas, or you could slide maps under it. And you would take the aviator into the cockpit and say, "Okay, we're gonna go from point here to point there, and I'm gonna give you some instruction as you go along." And then I'd close the top, and they're in the clouds. And away we'd go.
Haller: (248) And they maneuvered it using the joystick …
Young: (249) They maneuvered it by the instruments they were looking at, and I'm watching; or I'm giving instructions. I acted as a controller, for example.
Haller: (250) ... and you're getting a read-out on this ...
Young: (251) ... and I'm watching the read-out as they do it.
Haller: (252) ... got it ...
Young: (252) ... enjoyable - I enjoyed it.
Haller: (252) Were you ever trained to fly? Did you ever fly?
Young: (253) I flew ... I had a private license at one time, but I have an eye condition which, as I got older, got worse. Women were not authorized to fly military aircraft at that point. That's just in the last - what? - ten years, twelve years maybe. So, there was no way, although there were times when ... I took the stick a few times. [Laughter]
Haller: (260) Did you?
Young: (260) Oh, yeah. And so, we weren’t allowed to fly military airplanes of any kind. It was a no-no.
Haller: (263) You talked about some of the typical things you were trained to do, and I assume that translates then over into those were the typical duties that you performed at Crissy Field?
Young: (267) Hmm hmm .
Haller: (267) Maintenance, records of aircraft ...
Young: (268) Flight Operations.
Haller: (268) To me that means you'd be up there in the control tower?
Young: (270) Uh, could be. I was a trained controller – not at that time. I had my certificate later.
Haller: (272) So, Operations is not the same as flight controller ...
Young: (272) Not necessarily the same ... There's two - break it down this way: We had a tower and we had controllers most of the time. We were strictly a VFR tower; that is, there was no giving instructions for instrument flight weather ... that ... we couldn't do that, because we just didn't have the facilities; particularly, when you're sitting down here in the middle of San Francisco, looking out over the Bay, with the Bridge behind you - you gotta do what we called "VFR" - "visual flight readings." It was just there to ... it wasn't just there ... it was there to give advice, to assist and observe and watch aircraft come and depart, departing and returning. Now, that could also be handled without a control tower. You can handle that downstairs on the lower level in the Operations. The dispatchers were all trained to ... to give advice, give aircraft advisories, give aviation advisories - the winds, what's the weather today? What's it look like? Any traffic in the area? Etc., etc., etc. We could do that without seeing the aircraft. This is what they call an "advisory." And we did that many, many times. Because the tower was not always open twenty-four hours a day--we never had that many people. So, we used to call it our own control tower down below. We had a window that would swing out so you looked out at the runway ... [Laughter] So, that was the part of Operations that has to be manned, as a general rule, 24 hours a day, depending upon how much activity you have. Another function was scheduling flights. Flight Detachment was there as a support - that's what it is. It supports-or did--it supports ... the commands in this area. That includes all the facilities on the Presidio, which were tenants. The Sixth Army, of course, was the major command, and that's what the Flight Detachment was, it was the Sixth Army Flight Detachment at that time. And, so, scheduling was a big thing. We had a scheduling board up there on the wall that was ... probably, let's see if I can remember now - ten feet long and about four or five feet high where we kept all our flights scheduled. What it amounts to is, here's a mission that somebody wants to go to Timbuktu, we've got to determine what type of aircraft we need -how many passengers there’s gonna be determines the aircraft or the cargo ... Who do I have who can fly this? Am I going to have this aircraft ready to go ... That's why we had to coordinate with maintenance very closely. That was a big factor, a big part of the job. Another big part of the job was maintaining records, aviator's records. They didn't maintain their own. They aren't--the operations crew maintain their flight records and that could get kind of detailed, The Army's changed their systems a lot, but most of it was working with forms covering certain phases of flying - the visual flying, instrument flying, maintenance, co-pilot, pilot, their positions in the aircraft, and it was recorded with a stubby pencil. It was an everyday job.
Haller: (330) Describe the kinds of missions that were typical at Crissy Field, or any unusually interesting ones, for that matter.
Young: (333) Well, the main mission, of course, was support to the General Commander.
Haller: (335) Who would be doing what?
Young: (335) Who would be going anywhere in the Sixth Army area, or wherever else the Commander would require him to be. That was our main function, was to take the Commander and his staff wherever they wanted to go, wherever they needed to go ... The mission was also to support other functions. Most of these were passengers ... we did mostly passenger trips. We carried some cargo. We supported EOD, in which ... uh yeah ... bomb disposal came here, was here at Sixth Army, here at the Presidio ...
Haller: (347) "EOD" is "Emergency Ordinance Disposal"?
Young: (348) “Emergency Ordinance Disposal”. That was a rather interesting function. And this was in the days before there was so much fuss about movement of arms and weapons across the country. A lot of the weapons were moved across the country by train. And when you ... railroads, when the trains would be up in the mountains, the EODs of the various areas ... for example, there's one here in Presidio; there'd be one in Fort Lewis; there'd be one in Fort Carson; and various and sundry places. They would be on alert during the movement of this particular train or load or whatever it might be. We were then on alert to have available a certain aircraft and two pilots always had to be ready to go. And we had to pull out a couple of times and make some flights to some outlying areas up in the mountains and at certain airports, wherever they had the trouble. Nothing serious thank goodness, nothing blew up, but it's scary when you get that call in the middle of the night saying, "Okay, let's go -hey, guys, let's go!" So that meant that we always had to have a dispatcher available; maintenance had to be available; two pilots had to be available -that was minimum.
Haller: (374) And, obviously, aircraft ...
Young: (376) Aircraft always had to be ready. And the airplane would depend upon what particular area you were going into, what fuel you had to carry with you. They would know that. Sometimes we had to go out with two, depending on how much equipment they had to carry with them.
Haller: (380) At one point you discussed that, as the Vietnam conflict began to build up, that Crissy Field was used more and more for trans-shipment of wounded from Travis Air Force Base to Letterman Hospital. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Young: (387) That's right! That was a big mission. Heartbreaking mission sometimes, but very rewarding. The wounded coming out of Vietnam -very briefly, would need to come through Japan through Honolulu, or through Hawaii, and then fly ... and then they'd be flown into an area nearest their homes, generally, depending on their wounds, of course. The flights would go into Travis - the Air Force flights, Medivac flights -would go into Travis, and then for patients coming down to Letterman, depending on the condition of the patient -we didn't move all of them. But if it's a patient that needed to be here quickly, or could not stand that long trip in an ambulance or a bus, or whatever, then we would fly up and get 'em. We started out initially with an Otter, which is a single engine, heavy airplane made by DeHavilland – big ol’ Otter. And it could carry slings – it was big enough that we could put slings in there – slings…uh, what do I want to call ‘em?
Haller: (411) Stretchers?
Young: (412) Stretchers! We'd sling hangers ... uh, string stretchers in there. Uh, we used that one for quite a while. As I can recall, we probably used that Otter every part of the year, and that was the only plane that could ... the only we had at that time that could take stretchers. It was kind of neat -the crew chief on that plane, he took care of that like a ... like a little baby. This was a fixed-wing plane, now, a tail-dragger, a fixed-wing. And he even took the little hubs on the front wheel and the two rear and painted them white and put red crosses on 'em. That was kind of neat, seeing that thing rolling up. People knew what that was, too, when they saw that rascal flying along. That caught everybody's attention.
Haller: (428) There's a picture of an Otter in the photo collection that you donated, so I remember it well.
Young: (430) Um hmm, um hmm ... And that might be "Quad-deuce" -that was the one tail number that I remember. That tail number was -I forget the first number, I think it was five. Two-two-two-two. We used to call it "Quaddeuce" -that's what we called it, I recall ... [Laughter]
Haller: (435) Great. Great.
Young: (436) But that was the one that we used for Medivac. But then, as time went on, helicopters became available, the 'Nam thing was standing down to a sense ... New helicopters were corning into the system, so the Flight Detachment -the Executive Flight Detachment in D.C., the Pentagon -got H-34's that had been used there, and they were being ... those aircraft were being replaced by the Hueys. The Hueys were then corning into the system. So, the H-34's was being moved out into the field and lo and behold we got one, that first one that came out here, specifically for that purpose, to transport patients and stretchers, particularly who were on stretchers, on the H-34's. That was what we used. I used to ... one little gimmick here -one little thing that used to bother me sometimes -I never mentioned this to any of the patients, and I talked to several of the patients after they got home, but I can imagine this Otter ... I can imagine this wounded GI lying on a stretcher, he’s just arrived at Travis in, usually a jet, with all kinds of service – nurses and all this good stuff. And they wheel him off that jet and take him over here to this little ol', single-engine Otter -you know, that must be -that must have been a shock! [Laughter.) I was always afraid to ask them if that was a fact. But, that had to be a shock. But we always got 'em here!
Haller: (471) What other effects did the Vietnam conflict have on you or your colleagues, or the soldiers that you knew in your operations? How did it go in those years?
Young: (477) Well, I suppose you think ... now, you think about what's happened as far as the Vietnam veterans are concerned, sort of the bad rap many of them are getting. Some of the guys coming back were ... were a little uh -I don't know what the word I want to use is ... First of all, some of them were a little apprehensive coming back from a combat zone into an environment where there were women. Some of the guys were working for me. Some of the fellahs didn't seem to mind at all. The aviators, of course, they had a mission when they were over there -and some interesting stories come back with these guys ... One of the warrant officers I worked with there, W-4, lives up here in Petaluma now. He was shot down twice that I know of. And ended up with a broken back, and nobody knew it for a long, long time, until he got back here in the States. Pretty bad shape, tough guy, real sweet. Big ol' teddy bear, but he thought he was tough. Oh, the guys talk amongst themselves, of course. When they got back here, the younger ones had a little bit of the culture shock, simply because when they got back here they didn't have Hueys. We didn't have Hueys in Flight Detachment for a long, long time.
End of Side One
Young: (001 )But the Hueys were earmarked for combat unit training, like Benning, and Bliss and places like that, and of course, for Vietnam. So, most of the younger aviators ... [tape turned over]
Haller: (004) ... and the young veterans corning back home to something of a culture shock, from coming from what I guess you call "hot" aircraft to some of the antiques?
Young: (007) Little bit older ones that we had here.
Haller: (007) So what were the ... what aircraft were highly thought of? What did you like to fly? What were the typical aircraft, I guess? What did you like to fly? What were the dogs?
Young: (010) Well, I don't know as any of them were really "dogs" -a dog in an aircraft is like a dog in a car. There's a certain model somewhere along the line that will always be a dog, I don't care what ... its brothers and sisters can all sit beside it and be great, and there will be one in that bunch; it always happens. But, during Vietnam, 'course the Huey came to be used that was the ultimate, at that time, for the Army. Then the Chinook, the twin-engine rotor, not "Shakey" but the Chinook H-47 was rather sophisticated -at its time, it was sophisticated as far as Army aircraft was concerned. These are helicopters ... of course, the intent all along, basically, was that the Army was to stay with helicopters -that was to be the mission -pick up troops, transport troops, move troops, Medivacs and supplies. The fixed-wing part of the Army, that's how Army aviation started out of course, was with fixedwing. The little “bird dog”, which was used as an observe during World War II, over in Europe.
Haller: (026) What was before the bird dog?
Young: (026) The 0-1 ... uh, for the life of me, I can't think of the name ... Piper made one. There was two or three of them ...
Haller: (029) [Unintelligible]
Young: (029) ... it's a little tandem two-seater, a pilot and a passenger. Tandem, single-engine, little guy, lots of windows on the side, used for observation.
Haller: (031) Which is what the "O" was for ...
Young: (031) Yeah. Then the Army picked up several of the U- 6's--the Beaver--which, again, is another DeHavilland, smaller than the Otter, same principal idea, but just smaller. A good cargo plane. I liked them. I liked the Beaver. I got some bootleg time with them. It was good -well, small and pokey -but it was a good airplane. DeHavilland makes a good airplane.
Haller: (037) That's sort of an interesting connection for me, because the classic airplane of the early years at Crissy Field was also a DeHavilland, it was the DH-4 ...
Young: (039) Oh, yes.
Haller: (039) I remember your saying that in the later years of Crissy Army Airfield, the DeHavilland was pretty typical and highly thought of, also.
Young: (041) DeHavilland - the Army also bought from DeHavilland the Caribou, which was the big, twin-engine cargo plane that now the Air Force has, those that are left. A good-sized plane – that was the one that had a big, sloping tail on it. Cargo plane. Had a drop ramp.
Haller: (044) That type was never used at Crissy Field, was it?
Young: (045) We didn't have 'em - they weren't assigned to us, but there was quite a story to this - to the Caribou, if we have time to go into that.
Haller: (046) No, tell me the story.
Young: In the - '65 or '66 - I think it was '65, there was, in the winter, there were some terrible, terrible floods up north, in Ukiah, Eureka, Fortuna, and up in that area. Those people were just inundated with terrible storms. And so, Sixth Army Flight Detachment was tasked to get up there and help. And, again, all we had at that point was observation helicopters - we did have observation helicopters, not the OH-6 ..• I'm losing my train of thought here ... Anyway, we didn't have helicopters to use for heavy lift or transport or anything more than one passenger, so we were using fixed- wing. The Otter was used extensively for that. We also had Beeches, U-8s, went back and forth ... bearing in mind that the U-8, the Beech twin-engine, always had to have a pretty fair runway. It was not a rough use airplane. We used the Otter a lot. I can remember when one of our captains that flew in somewhere in the Fortuna area in the Otter, ol' QuadDeuce, and put that rascal down in a canyon where there was a family, a handicapped family, were down in this canyon and couldn't get out. The roads were out, all the bridges were washed out, the mud was sliding, and he put that Otter in there, picked this family up, and flew it out of there. And people might not have believed it, but I saw the dirt and mud and sticks sticking out of the end of the wings when he come back with it, so, he did. (Unintelligible] ... that's quite a trip. But, meantime, we had a mission to get as much supplies and this type of thing up there as we could possibly get - help to get supplies - the Caribou is twin-engine, heavy lift, fixed-wing, as I was just mentioning, was in the system at that time, and it was ... most of them were on the East Coast, I think, Benning, or someplace out in there, so the Army tasked whatever facility that was to fly two Caribou out here and support us - help the Sixth Army support the mission up in the north. We knew the Caribou were coming in this particular day, they were coming across the south, and we had gotten word that they were going to stay overnight up in Fort Ord. It was getting late in the day. Crissy is not the best place to come into at night if you are not familiar with it, obviously. So, that was the last word we had. Then my dispatcher called me later in the evening and said, "You better get down here, this one Caribou wants to fly in." So, I went down, and sure enough, he was over at Oakland -they landed in Oakland. I said, "No, you stay right there, and I'll send a car over for you." We had billets already set up for 'em here at Presidio. "No, no," he says, "I'll bring it in -I've been there before." And I -yeah, I remembered -sort of remembered him then. His name had jolted me earlier, and I said, "I should know this guy." But I didn't at the time. Well, anyway, who am I to tell him he can't -tell him it was unsafe? It really wasn't unsafe, if he followed instructions. To make a long story short, he took off from Oakland. Oakland called us and said, "He's on his way." Right. We picked him up by radio -my dispatcher talked to him, told him exactly what he wanted him to do, where he wanted him to go and turn so that he'd come down and see Crissy. All the lights were on. Also, remember, Crissy sits right here alongside the Bay, right? And it also runs parallel to the highway, the viaduct, the overpass ...
Haller: (098) That's right.
Young: (099) Well, my dispatcher was doing his usual hanging out the window, looking for this Caribou. There's no way we're going to miss seeing this Caribou -he's big. It's got big, double lights which we didn't have on any of our planes. Finally, the dispatcher turns to me and says, "Sarge, I can't see him." "Well, ask him where he is." And he says, "I'm lined up with the runway."
Haller: (104) Oh, no.
Young: (105) I started to take the mike, and I said, "No, you tell him just go around. I want him to go out over the Bridge and come on around so we can see him." Well, he did -he listened -it suddenly dawned on him -I think he realized, "Hey, hey, I'm over the highway and not lined up with the runway." That scared the tar out of me.
Haller: (109) So ...
Young: (109) So I was shaky for about an hour after that one.
Haller: (110) So, this guy was trying to land on Doyle Drive!
Young: (110) Yeah, he was going to do Doyle Drive pancake right there!
Haller: (111) That's some story!
Young: (112) Oh, yeah, that had both - my dispatcher was a real sharp guy, but he was really shook up over that. Anyway, we got the plane out and got him over the Bridge, and got him turned around so we could see him, so we could watch him as he turned. And I did know him - he had been there before. But my boss wasn't too happy the next day. He was not too happy. Yes, Caribous went out of there on a regular - a Caribou can do a lot. A Caribou is like a C-5. If you've ever watched a C-5 land on a short field - it's unbelievable. But a Caribou can - you can equate it in that sense. People couldn't believe that big Caribou sitting out there on the runway.
Haller: (121) Hm hm. Do you remember the designation of the Caribou?
Young: (122) Caribou was CD-7, I believe. CD-7? Or was that the Air Force version of it? I know it was CD-7 at one time or another.
Haller: (124) That's fair enough.
Young: (125) The Air Force changed a lot of the designations when they took over [unintelligible].
Haller: (126) Just trying to get it - nothing crossreferenced ...
Young: [Unintelligible]
Haller: (127) Do you recall any other particularly memorable incidents that happened at Crissy Field?
Young: (128) Oh, yeah, there was a lot of 'em.
Haller: (128) Well, tell me some of 'em.
Young: (129) If we had a bunch of people sitting here, you'd hear stories that wouldn't quit. The old war stories, army stories. One of them I have never forgotten was, our executive officer at the time, a major, and a real sweet guy. Used to live up here where I live now - they've- moved since I have … But, a good aviator, and this one morning - one of the other missions that we had, one of the other units that we supported, was the veterinary office. They're the people that go out and inspect farms, because the Army buys meat, chickens, butter ...
Haller: (137) Okay ...
Young: (137) ... you know, all that good stuff, at various farms all around the country. So, one of our missions was to take some of the veterinary guys to these hidden towns where we'd go up and land and somebody would meet 'em, they'd go out and inspect the farm and come back - they'd probably spend a day inspecting different places. Anyway, that's what this mission was this particular day. And, it was a single pilot job that day. It was beautiful weather, one of those rare, rare, rare days when you could see the Farallons forever -you know, from almost off the Bridge. So, anyway, they're getting ready to go and the veterinarian came and got on board, the tower was open, so I wasn't paying attention -none of us was paying attention to the aircraft -that's the tower's job to get 'em out of there. All of a sudden, the tower called downstairs and said -gave the aircraft number, and I forget what it was now -said, "The airplane just went under the Bridge." I said, "You got to be kidding!" I got off my mike, "What are you talking about?" He said, "He just flew under the Bridge!" I said, “All right. Keep an eye on him. Look through our binoculars and make sure you’re watching him to make sure if he comes up.” We don’t know where he is. Once he got under the Bridge we had no idea where he was, because we couldn’t see him. And there was no radio contact at all. I went and got the boss right away. He came back. It was the XO, I don't think he was the CO at the time, ... stood there a few minutes, and the tower said, "I see him." And they were starting to climb, and now they were out beyond the - the headlands out there. So, he was going to Fortuna or someplace up in that area, so he was going to go out there and make a right turn and go north. So he did. Still no communications. Wouldn't answer the phone. Wouldn't answer the mikes, wouldn't answer the radio. So the Old Man says, "Get me an airplane and a pilot, right now." So we did. We got an airplane ready in a couple or three shakes, got another pilot, and the Old Man and this other pilot got on and away he went - swoosh -headed for Fortuna. And they never did catch up with him. When they landed, they found the airplane there, and the major got in the other airplane, and one of the other guys brought the Flight back. He didn’t fly for a while. That was forbidden. That was absolutely forbidden. First of all, it was against FAA regulations. But the major told him some months later - in fact, he was an ROTC instructor here in San Francisco for a long time - he's a native. And I saw him one day, here in the city, and he said, "That was an urge that I had and I was gonna do it, come hell or high water, and I did." He retired. I don't know whether it affected his ratings or not. He retired ... it was enough to get everybody excited, I'll tell you that!
Haller: (180) So, he did it just for the thrill of going under the Bridge.
Young: (180) Basically, that's what he did, yeah. Even helicopters, as far as the Army was concerned, the Sixth Army had put out that helicopters will not go under that Bridge. They will not go under it. We had the Navy - used to come up here a lot from San Diego to do their little R and R in the reserves, come up here in their helicopters, and they'd land here and stay overnight.
Haller: (186) They would?
Young: (186) RON "Remain Overnight," that sort of thing. They used to do that on a regular basis. Tell them, say, "No1 no." "Well, what are you gonna do about it?" Say, "That's not FAA regulations." Helicopters ca1!'t fly underneath there. But, the Navy - these Navy guys would take off and they'd get all in formation, get a big formation out here in the middle of the Bay, and all of a sudden, yeeoow - heading back to San Diego.
Haller: (192) Well, they still do it when a carrier comes in, they'll still fly under the Bridge sometimes.
Young: (192) I know that. Yeah.
Haller: (195) So, how about memorable characters of Crissy Field? Any particular people stand in your mind besides the good major there?
Young: (197) Well, I don't know. Most of the time there were only three or four women there. I had a couple of dispatchers. We had an administrative clerk named Katy. But, I don't know, it was a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. I don't recall anybody in particular. There was that major's incident - it wasn't related to a character, it was just something he wanted to do.
Haller: (205) Yeah.
Young: (205) And he did. The Sixth Army commander would go on flight missions. He flew all the time, along with all the Sixth Army officers up at the headquarters. He had friends up in the north country, Washington. Used to get a big kick out of it -he'd be up there for two or three days on an inspection trip and then he'd come back in the fall of the year, with about six, eight, ten, twelve, fifteen, twenty boxes of fresh apples. That used to be fun.
Haller: (215) That's great!
Young: (216) Yeah, he'd load up the back end, bring it back. I was off one time with a trip, we brought a truckload of apples down [unintelligible]. Great, great fun. Oh, we had another little incident that hit the news and it was an interesting news factor -Lear, John Lear -I think it's John Lear -the elderly gentleman that developed -developed and built the Lear jet, he's since died some years back, but his son was also in business with him and files, One weekend, we had an air show here at Crissy, I don't remember now what year it was. But anyway, we had an air show -lot of antique aircraft came in, other Army aircraft came in. We had a real nice attendance that day. It was one of those days when the fog rolls in just to the Bridge - covers the Bridge -but the field was clear. Rest of the base was clear. Anyway -and by the way, communications were [unintelligible] direct contact with Bay approach [unintelligible] also Oakland. During the air show, of course, the field was closed. No plane activity at all, it was a static type display. Got a call from Oakland to say that we had an emergency out over the ocean -there was a Cessna 310, which is a twin-engine, somewhat similar to the U8 the Army had. A civilian Cessna 310 had lost an engine, some distance out. It was fully loaded and was a ferry flight. One pilot was carrying this plane to Honolulu or Japan or someplace, and lost an engine. It was full of fuel – it was a flying bomb – and they’re trying to get him back to San Francisco. He’s on his way back to San Francisco. The Coast Guard had gone out to meet him already, and were already starting to come in. So, Oakland was calling us, "How's the weather there?" They were going to try to bring this plane in for a - if necessary -to land him on the ocean. On the Ocean highway out there on the ocean side -at that time -it was ...
Haller: (256) The Great Highway ...
Young: (250) Yeah, the Great Highway. At that time, it didn't have a lot of the obstacles on it that they have now. That's what they were planning on doing, but the fog was there. The fog was bad. "Crissy, what's your field like?" I said, "Well, we're clear. The Bridge is covered -I can't see the deck, but I know that it's clear on me." He said, "You got an air show." I said, "Yeah." He said, "How soon can you clear the people off the runway?" I said, "We can do that -that's no problem. Be prepared -why not?" So, we called the guys in, got 'em all briefed as to what they had to do. "If I hit the siren out here, you just take the trucks and go up and down the runway and get these people away as far as you can, 'cause this guy is gonna try to land." Turned out, this was young Bill -Bill Lear is the name -turned out, this was young Bill, the old man's son. And, so now we turned the radios on and now we're listening, we can monitor this thing. And they're getting closer, and they're getting closer and they're getting closer. He's right down on the water, he's flying just above the waves, he's hanging on with that single engine. And all of a sudden, under the Bridge comes the Coast Guard helicopter, and H-series. That guy was honking that helicopter so bad, so fast, that it was almost on its nose -he was going just as fast as he could go to keep ahead of the Cessna. And right behind that – right behind the helicopter comes the Cessna. He’s still skimming right along the water. He’s still running, so they said, “Okay, we’re gonna try to get him to Hamilton. The problem is making that long, loopy turn – and they had to get him over another bridge. So, they made it. They got him home. No sweat. Of course we didn't have to clear the field or anything, but it was an interesting afternoon. Very interesting. We went up to look at that airplane the next day up at Hamilton, and it was setting there with a big hole through one engine nacelle the jug went through. Oil all over the place. And salt! You could just walk up and peel the salt off the body, that's how close to the water he was.
Haller: (286) You referred to the helicopter coming in under the Bridge and "harding" it?
Young: (287) Honking - honking it.
Haller: (288) What does that mean?
Young: (288) Well, he had it full power – as much power as he could possibly put on that plane. As a result, it has a tendency to keep the nose down, on that particular model.
Haller: (291) I see.
Young: (291) That's a phrase you use. Full on power.
Haller: (293) You think you could walk us through a typical flight cycle? I mean, what would happen when a flight -when you have a flight scheduled and then - how would that go? Would you roll something out of the hangar, or would they be lined up on the flight line and just walk us through that process.
Young: (297) Well, first you get the schedule. "Can we do this? Do we have the capability?" "Yes." Fine. Now, what is the purpose of the mission? I'm sorry -you have a mission -what is the mission? How many people? Is it cargo? Where are we going? Who's involved? How many codes? Codes ... codes is something I haven't mentioned yet. The VIP types were coded. Codes 3, 4, 5, 6 and on up. Or the other way around, depending on their rank. That was the first -the first decision: "Can we handle this mission?" "Yes, we can handle this mission." Okay, now we have to set the schedule -"What aircraft do we have? What kind of an aircraft do we need? Is it going to be available?” Okay. It’s available. The flight leaves tomorrow morning at 8 o’clock, set it up on the board. “Who’s due to go on a flight like this?” Depends on how far it is, whether it’s overnight. “Who’s qualified? Who do we have there?” Somebody might be on leave; somebody might be sick with the flu or something; somebody might be on a mission, not even around; so, pick out the pilots. Call Maintenance, "We need this aircraft so-and-so, can it be ready?" "Yep. It'll be ready." Now, Maintenance gets to work to make sure that aircraft is ready to leave at 8 o'clock the next morning. At 6:30 or so, the maintenance people are there, take the aircraft, pull it out, put it over right across the highway -remember, it had to go across the highway from the hangar ...
Haller: (325) That's Mason Street.
Young: (325) It had to go across the highway. Pull it out there and get it ready, get it all ready to go.
Haller: (327) Pulled it out?
Young: (328) Had to be pulled out.
Haller: (328) By …?
Young: (328) By tug ...
Haller: (329) Tractors?
Young: (329) Tractors ... Tugs …
Haller: (329) Tug ...
Young: You're ready to go. Dispatcher's ready. Now, pilots come in. It's their job now to preflight the aircraft, make sure it's ready. They do the final preflight. They have to file the flight plan, and where it's gonna go. They have to determine the weather; what route they can take; what route will FAA say you can have; and so on and so forth. They drew the flight plan. Fill it out and get all the different information. And they'd come back to the dispatcher and give him - or her - the flight plan, and they prepared to get ready to go. Dispatcher's job, now, if it's an IFR flight, the dispatcher's job, now, is to go to - in this case, not to Flight Service, but to the Departure Center, and say, give all the pertinent information that's needed so that FAA can build a hole for that plane to get into ...
Haller: (347) What's an "IFR" flight?
Young: (348) Instrument Flight Rules [unintelligible] Weather Rules ... Or, if it's necessary to do an IFR flight. A lot of times, with high codes, ranking individuals, they will fly on Instrument Rules, regardless of what the weather is, 'cause that's positive control of air traffic. Fly visual, you can fly any of the airways you want, as long as you're observing and watching. You're on your own .. The flight is followed by a Flight Service Station, where it's flagged, but it's not always under positive control. And that's about it ...
Haller: (359) Now, the aircraft at this point is where? The flight line is sort of across Mason Street.
Young: (361) Setting right at the gate. The gate - you probably never have seen the gate ...
Haller: (363) Well, the gate's along the fence, but it's not the same fence, I think, that was there. Across Mason Street from the ... the Operations ...
Young: (365) Operations. You know where that unloading ramp is?
Haller: (367) Yes.
Young: (367) Okay, it was just to the left of there.
Haller: (368) Got it. Great.
Young: (368) And the airplane would be sitting right there.
Haller: (369) And you refer to that as the "flight line"?
Young: (370) That's the flight line.
Haller: (370) Which is just the area where the aircraft are ... Okay.
Young: (372) Most of the aircraft were kept out there all the time. Were tied down out there. We didn't have room in the hangar.
Haller: (374) For what?
Young: (375) The VIP aircraft were usually kept in the hangar. Or, if there was a lot of maintenance going on, sometimes even those aircraft had to be tied down outside. We just didn't have room.
Haller: (377) I've come across information that the Reserves used a different hangar down at the - the 200 Series. Is that correct?
Young: (380) There was a building down there. Used to be an old Forest station. And it was big enough - had hangars - hangars! - had bays in it, where we used to put trucks in there. And the Reserves had a couple of helicopters -for the life of me, I can't remember what they were ... and they had them in there, or they had them tied down on the outside. Yeah, that was a Reserve and, I think 15th Corps had aircraft down there, too. When 15th Corps was ...
Haller: (390) But that was basically the hangar and the office area for their outfit ...
Young: (392) Uh hmm. That was their whole operation, their whole aviation operation was right there in that building …
Haller: (393) But they, of course, used you - your officer of communications ...
Young: (394) Communications. They used our communications, they filed flight plans through us and …
Haller: (397) Controls ...
Young: (397) We did their controls before taking off ...
Haller: (397) Got it. Okay, so the plane takes off … the plane leaves the flight line and, what, taxis …
Young: (400) Taxis down, gets ready ...
Haller: (402) ... down to the east end ...
Young: (401) Well, whichever end ...
Haller: (402) Whichever one ... depending on ...
Young: (402) ... depending on when ... 99% of the time it was on the east end, because you were going to take off over the Bridge.
Haller: (403) Okay. That’s fine …
Young: (404) Not over the Bridge, but south of the Bridge. That's another story.
Haller: (406) Okay, you can tell that, too ...
Young: [Laughs] Now, the next step, of course, is the pilot is gonna be there -he comes back on the radio to dispatch and says "I'm ready to go." Dispatch, in the meantime, has gotten back in contact with Departure and says, "Yeah, we're ready to go." Departure says that they say okay. Departure will come back and give them either the same flight plan they just filed -will transmit that same flight plan as filed -and/or they will give them any changes that Flight Services -that uh, Departure -wants.
Haller: (416) Departure is ...
Young: (417) In Oakland.
Haller: (417) In Oakland. Oh, I see ...
Young: (418) Now, that could be done either with a dispatcher or our tower. Our tower does nothing any different than our dispatchers. They are just there to give advisories and to watch, and so on and so forth. We cannot put an airplane up in the air simply because, firstly, there's no flight plan. Especially ... you've got to be controlled by the whole half of this whole United States ...
Haller: (426) Got it. Okay.
Young: (427) So, anyway, they get the flight plan, the dispatcher and/or the tower - controller - transmits back to the pilot your flight plan, and you're ready to go. Pilot says, "I got it." Puts the coals to it and takes off. As soon as he's off the ground and clear, Dispatch calls or the tower calls back to Oakland and says, "Flight so-and-so is off at - whatever time it was.”
Haller: (435) Now, in the early days of Crissy Field, the planes would get airborne and they'd make a right and they'd jerk over the Coast Guard Station. But by this point, you just sort of pulled back on the stick or the yoke, is that correct? And you'd sort of head straight over the hills?
Young: (441) There was a certain spot ... there was a certain spot between the houses up there on the hill and the south tower.
Haller: (443) Got it.
Young: (443) And that changed later ... Some mornings ... There's all kinds of extenuating circumstances here that you can spend hours talking about ...
Haller: (446) Sure.
Young: (446) That changed somewhat later because we had an incident that could have been very, very serious. There was a twin-engine U-8 taking off one morning on a flight - I don't remember what it was about or anything - of all days, it was April Fool's Day that morning. The flight took off across to the west, made its usual offturn between the house and the Bridge, and was gone - went on its mission.
Haller: (456) So ... basically, you went right over the toll plaza.
Young: (457) Toll plaza - right.
Haller: (457) Okay.
Young: (458) A few seconds later, a car comes screaming into the Dispatch window there - the door - and a gentleman jumps out of the car, runs in all huffing and puffing and out of breath, "That airplane just took off and it dropped a wheel - or something!" [Unintelligible] I said, “Contact him and see if they’re okay and if everything’s all right.” “Yeah, we’re fine.” “Anything drop that you know of?” “No.” I asked them to come back, turn around and come back here. So I questioned this guy. At first, I thought it was a big April Fool's joke, 'cause as I say, it was April Fool's Day, and I started to doubt him. And I turned around and looked at -my boss was there -one of the warrant officers was right there at that same time, you know, and he and I looked at one another, and he said, "Bring him back. Get him to fly over and let's see what's going on." So, we got on the phone right away and called the tower -called the toll booth. Sergeant's headquarters out there at the toll booth, you know where the sergeant's are, where the observation ...
Haller: (483) Yes ...
Young: (484) They didn't know of anything, but somebody came in as they -one of my guys was talking to the booth people -and said, "Something fell off that airplane!" Well, okay, the plane comes back; called Maintenance right away and the Maintenance sergeant came over and the Maintenance officer came over. Plane comes back around, we had him do a low fly and gear up and gear down, two or three times. And then they turned inside the Bridge. By this time, we didn't know what the hell was going on. Nothing wrong with the gear, but the Maintenance NCO was a very good friend of mine, took our binoculars and went out on the runaway, ran over by the Bay, and stood there and watched him and he comes back and says, "Augmenter tubes are gone." Augmenter tubes are exhaust tubes about this big, and about this long -for the sake of the tape, it's about two feet long maybe, and maybe B, 10 or 12 inches at its widest point, it tapers. It’s off the exhaust. And it was gone, it was missing. It was up there somewhere. So, right away, they sent – we sent two of our vehicles up there with all the troops we could get. Get up there and start looking. And of course, we worked at the mike; but the officers went up there right away and started coordinating with these people. We found it, over there, you know, in that embankment [unintelligible] ...
End of Recording
Description
Interview with Iva Young discussing various experiences in the military between 1964 and 1968.
Copyright and Usage Info