Oral History Interview with Joseph Elliott Part 1

Transcript

Transcript

[Beginning of CT-2001-SC-009a_01] Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v. Board Oral History Collection, Clarendon County, South Carolina, school segregation desegregation interviews, interview three, Mr. Joseph Elliott, part one. Conducted on July 11, 2001 in the home of Mr. Joseph Elliott in Sumter, South Carolina. Interviewee: Mr. Joseph Elliott. Interviewer: Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. These interviews are made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project funded for the summer of 2001 by the National Park Service as part of the Brown v. Board National Historic Site Oral History Project. Mr. Elliott, what is your full name? Joseph Elliott: Joseph Cantey Elliott. Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell Cantey? Joseph Elliott: C-A-N-T-E-Y. Oloye Adeyemon: And when were you born. Joseph Elliott: Born January the 22nd, 1940. Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born? Joseph Elliott: Born at home in Summerton—Summerton, Clarendon County. Oloye Adeyemon: And what was your—and is your occupation? Joseph Elliott: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Have you had more than one? Joseph Elliott: I’m currently, uh, headmaster at Clarendon Hall, a private school in Summerton, South Carolina. I’ve been with the pubic schools. I had been with the public schools for [crosstalk 02:00]— Oloye Adeyemon: Which public school did you teach at? Joseph Elliott: Started at Ninety Six as a school principal in 1970 ’til 1978. Then I went to Hampton District 2, which is Estill, South Carolina, Hampton County. It’s - it’s called South District. And then, uh, Aiken, Aiken Public Schools, was a county system. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Aiken and [crosstalk 02:20]— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Well, were you a teacher before you became a principal? Joseph Elliott: I taught—really, the first—my first teaching job was at Boylan-Haven-Mather Academy. I taught from January through August, uh—not through August. Excuse me. Uh, May, I guess. I don’t know how the long school year was back then. I don’t know if you know about this, but this was a private Black school, Boylan-Haven-Mather Academy at Camden. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: And it furnished the Black leadership, uh, during Reconstruction— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: - uh, until— Oloye Adeyemon: What year did that school open? Joseph Elliott: This was, uh—oh, this opened in Reconstruction, and it closed— Oloye Adeyemon: 1970s? Joseph Elliott: Eight—uh, well, 18, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: ’80s? Joseph Elliott: I would say it’s in the 18—early - early 1870s. It ended in 1876, Reconstruction did. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, so it started in the 1870s. Joseph Elliott: So, it started in the 1870s, early 1870s. Oloye Adeyemon: And lasted for how long? Joseph Elliott: It lasted—I think it closed probably in the—oh, I would say the mid-’70s. I may be mistaken. I - I’m not sure about the date, but it probably lasted about a hundred years. In fact, I hired a kindergarten teacher that, uh—that, uh, taught my first year there. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And then I went on Ninety Six. Oloye Adeyemon: You were hired as a? Joseph Elliott: A teacher. Oloye Adeyemon: In? Joseph Elliott: Yeah, in Mather Academy. Oloye Adeyemon: What did you teach? Joseph Elliott: Taught history. Oloye Adeyemon: History. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: High school level? Joseph Elliott: High school level. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And had you had teaching experience before that? Joseph Elliott: Uh, this was my first, uh, assignment as a teacher. Oloye Adeyemon: What - what caused you to choose that school? Joseph Elliott: Uh, well, it was in the middle of the year, to - to - to be honest, and, of course, uh, I was curious. I knew it was a—it was a different element from - from what was in Clarendon County. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: The students came from all over the - the world. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: Nigeria, for one place. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: And, uh, I’d heard about the school and knew a little bit about it, knew a little bit about Camden. I had family there, and, uh, so I thought it’d be a good experience for me. Oloye Adeyemon: How far is Camden from here? Joseph Elliott: I enjoyed it very much. I was in Columbia. I’d just finished the University of South Carolina in, uh, 19—January of 1960. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And, uh, it was about a 45-mile drive. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. From Columbia? Joseph Elliott: From Columbia. Oloye Adeyemon: And from here? Joseph Elliott: And I commuted from Columbia to - to Mather, not from Summerton. Oloye Adeyemon: And how far is it from here? Joseph Elliott: From here, it’s probably 65 - 65 miles. Oloye Adeyemon: Is it between Columbia and here? Joseph Elliott: It’s - it’s in the Sandhills between, uh, Columbia and, uh, Ch—uh, Charlotte, I think. Oloye Adeyemon: So it’s north. Joseph Elliott: Well, Columbia and Marlboro is pretty much— Oloye Adeyemon: It’s north. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: It’s north, right. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Northwest. Oloye Adeyemon: Northwest. Okay. All right. When you, uh, graduated from, um, college in Columbia, again, which school was it you graduated from in Columbia? Joseph Elliott: University of South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: What was your major? Joseph Elliott: History. Oloye Adeyemon: Was that a master’s degree? Joseph Elliott: I got a bachelor’s, and at Appalachia State University— Oloye Adeyemon: Was it later when you got your master’s? Joseph Elliott: 1970. Oloye Adeyemon: It was not at that time— Joseph Elliott: 1970, two years later. Oloye Adeyemon: What was the school’s name again? Joseph Elliott: Appalachia State University in Boone, North Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: A mountainous area there. Oloye Adeyemon: And you graduated from there with a history— Joseph Elliott: History, an M.A. degree in history. Oloye Adeyemon: M.A. degree in history. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And your degree from South Carolina was? Joseph Elliott: It was a bachelor’s in history. Oloye Adeyemon: Bachelor’s in history. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Prior to that, what high school did you go to? Joseph Elliott: Summerton High School. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Was it the same Summerton that now stands, uh, as the, uh, Clarendon, uh, School District No. 1, uh, administration building? Joseph Elliott: That’s right. That’s right. Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, when did you graduate from there? Joseph Elliott: 1960. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Um, prior to going to high school—at - at that point, did it begin at ninth grade? Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Prior to going there, where did you attend school? Joseph Elliott: Well, it was called the Summerton Grammar School, across the street—directly across 301, uh, a huge old stone building there. Oloye Adeyemon: So it was across from where the administration building is now? Joseph Elliott: Across from where the administration building is now. Oloye Adeyemon: But it no longer stands? Joseph Elliott: It’s the Methodist Church parking lot now, Summerton Methodist Church. Oloye Adeyemon: How many students were attending, uh, Summerton at that—Summerton at that time? Joseph Elliott: Uh, I would say, in high school, we had probably—well, we had over a hundred. I had 24 in my graduating class, 26 in my wife’s graduating class, so about 25 in each grade. So my— Oloye Adeyemon: What year did she graduate? Joseph Elliott: She graduated in ’61. Oloye Adeyemon: What is—with your, uh, elementary school, grammar school, how many students were there? Joseph Elliott: More, I would say, but I don’t know how many. Oloye Adeyemon: Wow. Okay. Joseph Elliott: Uh, grammar school, uh, one through four, probably 110, 120. Oloye Adeyemon: In many cases, the grammar schools are smaller, and they feed into larger high schools. Why was the grammar school larger than the high school? Joseph Elliott: Uh, grammar school, usually, uh, if you take, uh, grade by grade, that, um, I’m not so sure that’s the case because, uh, people drop out of school. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: You know, they start, and they drop out. They begin to drop out, and - and during my time in the, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: And they didn’t necessarily go— Joseph Elliott: In the ’40s and ’50s, though, there were more dropouts than there are now. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Right. Sure. Joseph Elliott: So - so, the grammar schools were actually larger then— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - than they are now. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, what—you indicated that you were born in the county. Um, from what you’re saying, I get the impression that you went through 12 years of school here in town or in this county. Is that true? Joseph Elliott: [Laughs] Approximately. Oloye Adeyemon: Before going on to— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - leave and, uh— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - get your B.A. in South Carolina and your master’s in North Carolina. Joseph Elliott: That’s a good approximation, around 12 years. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, did it—given that you went into, uh, education early, uh, was there a point, maybe, when you were going through school that you did other kind of work? Joseph Elliott: My father, my grandfather, and it actually went back to my—the maternal side. The Canteys owned a lumber company, Canteys and Richbourgs, and, uh, my grandfather, Elliott, bought it from them. And he and my father built it up into a fairly, you know, large operation, relatively. Oloye Adeyemon: What was your father’s name? Joseph Elliott: Uh, Robert Venning Elliott. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what was his wife’s name? Joseph Elliott: Uh, her name was Julia Anderson Cantey before she married. Oloye Adeyemon: And they were also from Clarendon County? Joseph Elliott: She was born in this house, my mother was. Oloye Adeyemon: The house that we’re in now? Joseph Elliott: Right. That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: And your father was born— Joseph Elliott: He was born, actually, in Jefferson, South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: How far is that from here? Joseph Elliott: Uh, Jefferson [laughs]—I’m sorry. I don’t even know where Jefferson is. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: I’ve never been. Oloye Adeyemon: Was his family from there and moved here? Joseph Elliott: Uh, his family, actually, started out—I have an old ambrotype of my great-grandfather, and he was—he came from Georgetown, but I haven’t done any genealogical research on the Elliotts, so I - I really don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, on the other side, you have done some genealogical research— Joseph Elliott: Right, so I have, yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - in your genealogical research on the Canteys. Is that correct? Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Right. Oloye Adeyemon: When did they arrive in South Carolina? Joseph Elliott: Okay. Geo - George Cantey came on the Carolina, which was the first boat, so he was one of the first settlers. George Cantey came from the Barbados, and he went back and got his father, Teige Cantey. They were—they had land taken from them in Ireland, and they were sent to the Barbados. And then, yeah, five years later, John Cantey was born, and he was the third White child born in - in South Carolina. So, as this book, The Gamecock, says, there have always been Canteys in South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: This book? Joseph Elliott: This one right here. Always been Canteys in South Carolina to found—Thomas Sumter married a Cantey, and that’s why— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, Thomas Sumter. Joseph Elliott: See, and so a lot about the Canteys, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: So this is the family history? Joseph Elliott: Well, that’s not family history. He’s the Fighting Gamecock. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, actually, The Patriot, if you’ve heard of that movie— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Joseph Elliott: - by Mel Gibson, uh, it’s fictionalized, largely, but he played both generals. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: He portrayed the characters of - of Marion and Sumpter. Marion was the Swamp Fox. Oloye Adeyemon: Swamp Fox and Sumter— Joseph Elliott: Sumter was the, uh, Fighting Gamecock. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: He was the last surviving general of the Revolutionary War. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But back from Kent— Oloye Adeyemon: From any—from anywhere in the country? Joseph Elliott: From anywhere in the country. He died when he was 98, almost 99. Oloye Adeyemon: And your relationship—and your relationship to him? Joseph Elliott: To General Sumter? Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Joseph Elliott: Well, actually, it was my aunt many times removed who married him. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Joseph Elliott: She was Mary Cantey, the daughter of Captain Joseph Cantey, who was a third-generation South Carolinian and my grandfather—I don’t know—eight times, seven times removed, something like that. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh, and what year did they arrive in South Carolina? Joseph Elliott: 1670 at the first settlement. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: First boat. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: And the second boat came, uh—came much later. Well, not so much later. His brother came out then. Oloye Adeyemon: You mentioned that your wife was born in this house and that the Canteys came at that early point. Joseph Elliott: Not my wife. It’s my mother. Oloye Adeyemon: No, your mother. I’m sorry. Joseph Elliott: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: Your mother was born in this house. Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: And the Canteys came at a very early point. Was this part of the original settlement that they made? Joseph Elliott: No, it wasn’t. [Sigh] Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Where did they come— Joseph Elliott: Canteys came from the coast. Three of them, um, Joseph, William, and John, were sent from Charleston by the—what was called the Commons House of Assembly, the elected legislative body of South Carolina when South Carolina was a province. Not a colony, but a province, uh, owned by lords proprietors, eight of them. And, uh, they were sent here. Uh, actually, it was a colonial government when they were sent here, John and William and Joseph, to - to help found, uh, the largest, uh, Anglican parish in South Carolina, St. Mark’s. And Summerton is located in St. Marks, so this is why they left Charleston and came to this area. John went to Camden. William went back to Dorchester and then Charleston. And Joseph stayed and built Mount Hope, uh, on the southeastern corner of Clarendon County— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - uh, where Francis Marion actually had a ball to celebrate the victory of the Americans in the—in the revolution. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: He was a Cantey friend as well. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what year would they have arrived in Cam—in, uh, Clarendon County? Joseph Elliott: Uh, this was, uh, before 1739 because he began his, uh, Mount Hope, uh, plantation in seven—in 1739. Oloye Adeyemon: When was this house built? Joseph Elliott: This house, uh, I have a - a map by S. H. Boykin, uh, dated 1821, and it’s—and, uh, has this house on it, and it was called the Old Regan House, the Old Regan Place in 1821, so we - we conjectured that the house was built sometime in the late, uh, 1790s. The Regans arrived in - in this area in - in, uh, 1795, so this was— Oloye Adeyemon: So, your mother was surrounded by a lot of history. Joseph Elliott: A lot of history, that’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: And in cases like that, the traditions also run strong. Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: The way that people do things. Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: It’s not even so much a question of whether it’s right or wrong. Joseph Elliott: Oh, sure. Oloye Adeyemon: It’s always been, uh— Joseph Elliott: That’s right, absolutely. Oloye Adeyemon: And there were other old families in this county that were part of that tradition of the area. Joseph Elliott: It is, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: I meant from the settling of the Whites in the area interacting a lot. Joseph Elliott: Well, that’s correct. Uh, the Canteys were mixed with the Richardsons and Mannings, and they’re - they’re both very famous families from South Carolina history. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And the Hamptons. I mean after the— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh, so the Mannings were very famous in South Carolina history. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And they gave their name to the county seat— Joseph Elliott: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: - of those counties over there. Joseph Elliott: Right, right, but they came later. They came about 100 years after, uh, uh, the Canteys did, but they settled in this area. In fact, Richard Richardson, uh, a general in the revolution, he was, uh, head of the South Carolina militia. He was also a commissioner to St. Mark’s Parish. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: In fact, he’s called the father of St. Mark’s Parish. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: General Richard Richardson. Oloye Adeyemon: That was the first parish? Joseph Elliott: It—no, it wasn’t the first parish. Oloye Adeyemon: It wasn’t. Joseph Elliott: It was one of the last parishes, but it was the largest parish— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Joseph Elliott: - in South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, so—and where was it located? Joseph Elliott: It encompassed, uh, Sumter, uh, and Clarendon and Claremont Counties. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, three counties. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So that was an Anglican Church? Joseph Elliott: Anglican Church, right. Didn’t become the Episcopal, as you know— Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: - until after the revolution. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Um, [clears throat] the—you mentioned, um, another nearby plantation. This was part of the large plantation at one point. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: How many acres? Joseph Elliott: Uh, I’ve heard it said that - that there were 10,000 acres in it. I really don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How many— Joseph Elliott: I know that I—excuse me. Oloye Adeyemon: No, I’m sorry. Go ahead. Joseph Elliott: I was told that it stretched all the way to Jack’s Creek, which is about, uh, four miles. Oloye Adeyemon: If we have a chance, uh, when we—when you go out and show us some historic sites— Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: - I’d like to see— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - get some idea just how big the property was. Joseph Elliott: Okay. I will say that - that, uh, a Cantey moved back. They left Clarendon County, except for Joseph, but, uh, my great-grandfather was a descendant, and he was born at Mount Hope himself. And he came here and married the daughter of this house, a Regan. So, my son makes it the eighth generation to live in this house. There were three generations of Regans, three generations of Cantey’s, and two generations of Elliotts. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did you say how many acres? Again, you have heard that this plantation— Joseph Elliott: I don’t know. Uh, uh, I’ve been told 10,000, but I don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: Ten thousand acres? Joseph Elliott: Uh, that’s, uh, inflated, probably, but, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: That’s what I’ve been told. I haven’t seen any of evidence of that. Oloye Adeyemon: And how many people of African descent would you say lived on those 10,000 acres? I understand, at some point, it was broken up into smaller plantations, but how many people would you say—if you put all of it—all of it together, all the different plantations that were part of that family land, how many people of African descent would you say lived on the land? Joseph Elliott: Okay. My understanding was that this plantation was contiguous. There were no separate plantations. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, there was a piece of land that, uh, was bought on Jack’s Creek in 1817 by the Regans, and, uh, which - which was still contiguous to this place, Jack’s Creek that way, but— Oloye Adeyemon: But if we think of all of them, since they were all family lands, one, how many, uh, people of African descent would you say were living on the land at one time? Joseph Elliott: I’ve heard—I heard 200, but I found no evidence of that. I’ve seen in, uh, uh, several books, uh, uh, people who had 100, uh, people of African descent on - on the place, but we’re talkin’ about slaves. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: So let’s - let’s - let’s go ahead and say it. Uh, they, uh, included in a book called The Last Foray, as late as 1850, all the families listed, and the Regan family was not listed. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: So, they either did not have 100 slaves at that time because they were divided and subdivided over a period of time or between different family members, or else that’s, uh, uh, conjecture. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. In the research that you’ve done, or anyone else has done in the family or in the area of the state, uh, is there anyone that’s been able to determine where enslaved Africans might have originated? Are there any records that relate to any of the people early on who might’ve come directly from Africa to this area through - through Charleston, um, Port? Joseph Elliott: Charleston, well, of course, the—what was called the seasoning area was Sullivan’s Island. They went there and were checked out for disease or whatever, and then they went to the Charleston area. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And, uh, they were occidental into the interior, but some were certainly auctioned in the slave market. Right. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Were there any auctions here in this area, where people were brought here and auctioned? Joseph Elliott: Not that I know of, but that’s— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: That’s certainly a possibility, but I - I don’t know of that. Oloye Adeyemon: Sometimes in family records of slaveholding families, there are indications that people arrived directly from Africa, and sometimes even in diaries or letters— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - there’s mentioned about African customs or names or other information. Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Have you ever come across any of that? Joseph Elliott: Oh, sure. Not in—maybe not in family records, but, uh, Ghana was - was, uh, uh, of course, um, West Africa. Then they came—most came from West Africa. Uh, the Nigerians were familiar with the - the, uh, herding, so they came, uh, because of - of - of their knowledge of, uh, herding cattle. In fact— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: In fact, Mount Hope was a - a - a cattle plantation. It was not a cotton plantation, cattle and Arabian horses. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: That’s what was raised there— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - uh, by Captain Joseph— Oloye Adeyemon: So you have seen evidence in some of the records that exist that people were aware of African origins of the people that were brought. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, when the people came from Barbados— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, when they came, uh, they brought with them people that were being held in slavery as well, right? When they left, uh, Barbados, it was—they - they didn’t come and then— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - they brought people. They - they were actually moving their plantations to South Carolina. Joseph Elliott: That’s— Oloye Adeyemon: Is that accurate? Joseph Elliott: That’s - that’s accurate. Um, Charleston was, in many ways, in the early days, a - a duplicate of the Barbados. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, the architecture was similar then. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, yes, so that was the case. Not only that, the first— Oloye Adeyemon: And since this was, um— Joseph Elliott: On the very first boat, and not on the Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: I think the first, uh, Africans to come over came, uh—well, of course, besides, um, San Miguel and Georgetown, the first Africans that came over came, I think, uh, uh, by way of ship, uh, brought by Governor, uh, Yeamans, Sir William Yeamans, the first governor of Carolina. And he brought 100. Oloye Adeyemon: From where? Joseph Elliott: That was the first ship from the Barbados. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Now, the first—I wanna correct that error. This is where we are right now? Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Is that correct? Uh, I wanna correct the error that I just made. Uh, Sir William, uh, Yeamans was not the first governor. He was the first governor to bring slaves over. I think he was the second governor. The first governor was William Sayle, and Carolina was not a colony. Carolina was a province. The Province of Carolina included Georgia and North Carolina and South Carolina, of which the capital was Charleston—Charles Town. Actually, it was Albemarle the first 10 years of its existence, on the Ashley River. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Now, between, not at Oyster Point, between the Cooper River and the, uh, Ashley River. Oloye Adeyemon: It was in a different location. Joseph Elliott: Different location the first 10 years, right. Uh, but incident to that is— Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 21:09] Joseph Elliott: Uh, well, they hid back in - in the, uh, Ashley River and Old Town Creek really to avoid the Spaniards. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: The Spaniards were in the area. In fact, in 1702, the Spaniards attacked Charleston, and they were beaten back, by, uh, uh, William Cantey. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Captain William Cantey. Oloye Adeyemon: One of your— Joseph Elliott: One of the ancestors, right. Oloye Adeyemon: - mother’s relatives. Joseph Elliott: Right. It was the first, I guess, foreign attack on, uh—on Charleston. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, and then we fought the Spaniards after that several times in several battles. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So— Joseph Elliott: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Go ahead. Joseph Elliott: But incident to that is, uh, uh, uh, the - the proprietors. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Actually, it was fundamental because we were a province rather than a colony. We weren’t under the leadership of the king. We were under eight lords proprietors, and the eight lords proprietors owned a huge interest in the Afri—Royal African, uh—what was it called?—Company. And this was a slave trading company. And some of the South Carolinians, unfortunately, uh, enslaved the Indians, the Native Americans, and, of course, uh, the—this - this, uh, um, upset the proprietors very much because it cut into their profit for the Royal African, uh, uh, uh, slave company. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And so they insisted that we, uh, uh, engage in the African, uh, slave trade, and which some did. Henry Laurens was of the prominent, uh, slave— Oloye Adeyemon: Were the Canteys involved? Joseph Elliott: - slave traders. Not in the slave trade. No, they weren’t involved. Oloye Adeyemon: Involved— Joseph Elliott: They weren’t involved. They had slaves, but they weren’t involved in the trade. Oloye Adeyemon: Why? Joseph Elliott: Not many—What’s that? Oloye Adeyemon: Why weren’t they? Joseph Elliott: Why weren’t they? Uh, not too many South Carolinians were. They were looked down upon. Slave traders were looked down upon. Oloye Adeyemon: Why? Joseph Elliott: You know the New England, uh—well, this—they felt that this was the worst part of it. Slavery was accepted to them. In their minds, slavery was okay back in the 1600s, the late 1600s, but the slave trade was abominable. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: So how did they were gonna get people to work if they didn’t enslave people and bring ’em here? Joseph Elliott: Well—what’s that? Um— Oloye Adeyemon: If people weren’t enslaved and brought here, how would they get them? I mean, they were saying it was okay— Joseph Elliott: Well, you— Oloye Adeyemon: - to have slaves, but it wasn’t okay to trade them. Joseph Elliott: That’s right. That’s right. They - they, uh, um, unfortunately, supported it, but they certainly did not, uh, uh, participate in it. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did they think that it was even worse— Joseph Elliott: They - they did—what’s that? Oloye Adeyemon: Did they think it was even worse to— Joseph Elliott: Oh, the slave trade, yes. You - you’ve seen slaves packed in ships. I mean, yeah, a slaver was much worse. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Um, you - you consider, uh, people who, uh, treat slaves—and I - I think, uh, many families, uh, treated slaves very well, which is certainly not remote—any remote justification for the practice. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: But, uh, you can certainly draw a distinction between slavery and the way people treated slaves in the slave trade. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Um, I would definitely agree that the value was much less. They had—it was a high incidence of death, and they calculated it in. I guess such a calculation, uh—those kind of figures would’ve been, uh, somethin’ that a person with a plantation would’ve felt were unacceptable in terms of profit margins. But, uh, I guess the question—’cause it was such a large profit made in between those two steps, oftentimes, by the time, you know—um, I guess the question that I would have, and I’d pose this to you as a person that, uh, has studied the - the - the - the conditions and probably knows them very well, that people both were brought in under and, uh, lived under once they were here. Uh, do you feel that there not only is a—is a reasonable justification for looking at this in another—from another point of view, this whole period of slavery and - and the impact of it on human beings, but, also, um, not a justification for looking at it from a different point of view, but perhaps, uh, an examination that would allow us to pinpoint why the legacy of it has kept—has been a burden in some ways to both Whites and Blacks? Uh, what I’m asking you is, uh, how you feel about some of the current, um, debates about what really characterized slavery. Was it the conditions that people worked under— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - or was the conditioning that everybody, White and Black, had to go through to be able to accept those conditions? Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, the conditions varied from one area of the country to another— Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: - and from the way that one person treated people who were held in slavery versus another. Joseph Elliott: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: But, um, one of the things that’s handicapped, uh, interracial dialogue around this, and perhaps some form of reconciliation, has been, um, the confusion, I think, between looking at the condition of slavery and the conditioning of slavery. Uh, people have oftentimes spoken of people being nice masters because the conditions under which the people who were held in slavery lived were not as brutal. And on the other hand, uh, there have been— Joseph Elliott: Well, they haven’t been brutal at all. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, right, or not brutal at all. And oftentimes, the people who were enslaved only knew that, and so, therefore, they themselves have asked—would refer to a master as being a kind master because their reference point was the treatment someone received. The point I’m getting at is if—and I don’t know if everyone is able to agree on that, but if people today— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - can say that slavery itself was wrong and put aside for a moment all the justifications for it that were put—that were in place, various ones, uh, some of them legitimate and some not, but if that’s put aside for a moment, and if, for no other reason, people acknowledge it as wrong because of Christian values or the kind—or - or - or the - the—some of the - the values in the Declaration of Independence and so on, if that’s the case, and the condition is in fact not all that’s being considered, but it’s being considered, the conditioning that everybody went through, then even though there may have been some nice people who owned slaves, then it might be possible for even those who, uh, are, um, very much tied to the traditions of the South— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - to say slavery was wrong. Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: There’s no such thing as a kind master. Joseph Elliott: Right. Yeah, that’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: No such thing as a kind master because, in fact, everybody suffered by being conditioned to know their place. And in some ways, it did not, uh, challenge Whites— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - as much as perhaps they could’ve who were part of that slave aristocracy. There were poor Whites who never had opportunities because most Whites in the South were not gonna own land ever. Joseph Elliott: Sure. Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And especially not own slaves. But then both free and enslaved people of African descent knew their place. Northern Whites knew their place because this was something that the whole country accepted. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: So, my question to you is— Joseph Elliott: Blacks too. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, absolutely. Joseph Elliott: Black slave owners. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, ab - abso - absolutely. Joseph Elliott: One - one hundred families in the South. Oloye Adeyemon: Abs - absolutely. Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Absolutely. And, you know, I guess the question I’m asking is, uh, would you agree with the statement that the true negative legacy of this period was not that the conditions were not something that, uh, oftentimes, uh, were not in the least humanitarian— Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: But nonetheless, is it true—do - do you feel that there’s some justification for a person taking the position that what we’re suffering from, whether it’s Kentucky or Mississippi— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - or Boston, is a period of time when people were conditioned to accept this as the status quo? And we’re not talking about something that can be compared to the conditions under which Roman slaves lived or slaves in Africa lived. Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Because, in fact, chattel slavery was something unique. Joseph Elliott: Well, let me go back and put—maybe we can put a little bit into perspective. Nobody—I don’t think anybody in his right mind would say it would be a, um—any, uh, humanitarian enterprise in any case. There were, uh, different degrees of - of, uh, I’d say, uh, uh—not different degrees of slavery, but different kinds of slavery. And then, uh, as - as you know, you had your, uh—down in - in the lower part of South Carolina, you had the task system where some slaves didn’t work but five hours a day. You had the - the gang system where they worked, uh, from sunup to sundown, and even more, and every day during the week. Uh, if you read Down By the Riverside, which, uh, Slate Magazine calls the best book on slavery— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - uh, by, uh, Charles Joyner from the University of South Carolina, Coastal Carolina, uh, uh, Conway, he talks about not looking at slavery in its separate parts, a little bit from Virginia, a little bit from North Carolina, the bad parts from, uh, Georgia, uh, but lookin’ at one single slave community and following that through. And this is what he did in Down By the Riverside. And, uh, if you can say that, uh, uh, under the best conditions, uh, those would be the best conditions— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But still, there’s no way that you could say, uh—I’ll say this, and I’ll say it about segregation. You know, it, uh—a lot of the planners had high ideals. The father of our country was a slave owner. The father of American democracy, Thomas Jefferson, was a slave owner, the writer of the Declaration of Independence. The father of the American Constitution was a slave owner. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: You know, so you talk about the Confederate flag. We’re not gonna tear up the - the, uh, Declaration of Independence or the Constitution because it was slave owners that wrote them. Uh, Washington was built by slaves, as you know. The capital of our country— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Joseph Elliott: - was built by slaves. Eight of the first 11 presidents, uh, were from slave-holding families, including the Adamses, who were vehemently against slavery. They call that, um, uh, relative morality. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: If you owned 400 slaves, and I own 4, which the Adamses owned— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - you’re 100 times worse than I am. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh— Joseph Elliott: They look at things like that. That’s - that’s inconceivable to us. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: But this is how they looked at things. Oloye Adeyemon: Not at all. It—I think, if we can—it— Joseph Elliott: To most people, it seems— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Joseph Elliott: Not to you, but to most people. Oloye Adeyemon: But if - if we—if it can become conceivable, then we can maybe look at what the impact on people was then, not the economic benefit, but the impact on—to certain people—but the impact that it was having on people’s humanity and why a form of chattel slavery even came into existence— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - where people would—it was not indentured servitude. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: It was not someone who had a different status, but nonetheless, had - had - had their humanity fully impacted. It’s like— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: What, I guess, I’m asking is—because the debate about the conditions is - is a never-ending debate. Joseph Elliott: Sure it is. Oloye Adeyemon: But— Joseph Elliott: The debate about slavery is not. Oloye Adeyemon: And - and what that does is to set up, uh, two camps that really are talking at each other because Blacks are going to feel, in some cases, a certain amount of shame because of - of that period— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - and anger when they’re communicating with Whites, and Whites— Joseph Elliott: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: - are gonna feel, uh, certain amounts, um, of guilt about it when amongst themselves, and maybe a defensiveness— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - when you’re talking to Blacks. Joseph Elliott: Right. Well, let me—let me clarify this. Uh, we can—then we can get—I think we can get pa - past, uh, a lot of this. And then you can ask me some questions. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: I will try and certainly go—what I think is, uh, uh, um, my own—my own view to a degree— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: - from what I’ve read. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: You talk about, uh, humanitarian as - aspects. Uh, I don’t know if you can talk about humanitarian aspects when the - the - the very nature of slavery doesn’t even recognize, uh, the - the, um—that - that, um, slaves were - were human. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: You know, they’re not in that basic humanity. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And, in a sense, segregation and, uh, the self-identity— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - uh, self-image, the same as—in - in - in a way— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - to a lesser degree, um, than slavery did. But slavery, uh, I - I think, uh, uh, disallowed the recognition of - of - of, uh—of slaves’ humanity. So we can put that past us. I— Oloye Adeyemon: Well - well, uh, I think we were in agreement with that, but I think this discussion that we’re having is difficult for a lot of people to have. Joseph Elliott: Oh, well, that’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: And the reason I think— Joseph Elliott: Much so for - for me. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, and I wouldn’t say that, um, it should be, you know, because it’s something— Joseph Elliott: No. I’m more defensive, so it’d be tough for me. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, right. Joseph Elliott: But— Oloye Adeyemon: But it shouldn’t— Joseph Elliott: It should— Oloye Adeyemon: - have to be that way— Joseph Elliott: Well, um— Oloye Adeyemon: - at a certain point because there - there are Whites who feel that who didn’t even—who weren’t even here— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - during that period. Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: Because it’s very simplistically looked at— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - with White lenses. Joseph Elliott: But I’ve already admitted it. See, my ancestors— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Joseph Elliott: - owned slaves, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: And so, naturally, I’m on the defensive, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Well— Joseph Elliott: - in - in the sense— Oloye Adeyemon: I understand what you’re saying, but I guess what I wanna get to is something—and it’s not for today. Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: But I wanted to get your response to it— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - because a person who understands this history and this heritage as well as you do— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - might also be a person that could play an active role in helping the country get beyond the pain. You know, I mean you might be able to articulate— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - some things with, um—with them having a greater emphasis and impact than someone who’s just been a casual student of it. Joseph Elliott: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: But the point I wanna get—make ’cause we wanna get on, but I think that what we’re doing is important to the subject. Joseph Elliott: I do too, but just— Oloye Adeyemon: But I’m setting a framework. Joseph Elliott: I’m just saying that - that there’s so many contradictions in slavery. And - and I will say that, once again, I do wanna—I do wanna interject this, but—and I’ll - I’ll—I will also say why think why I think it occurred. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, and these - these are just simply opinions, uh, but I do know that a man named Pendarvis, a Black, owned 150 slaves in Charleston. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: There were 100 slave owners in Charleston. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: William Ellison. I’ve got Black masters up—and now he owned 100, and he kept some in the woods when the census man came around. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: So he ended up with 66. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, a man—a Black man from Miss, uh—in Louisiana owned over 100. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, but there were many, many, and I think the reason they did was because they, you know—they wanted to be accepted too. This is the only way that they could get beyond their own enslavement, and many times, many - many Black slaves bought slaves to save ’em. They bought relatives. Oloye Adeyemon: And then— Joseph Elliott: They bought sisters. They bought— Oloye Adeyemon: And there were free Blacks that were prosperous as craftsman. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And some of them had been indentured servants in this country before chattel slavery was introduced— Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: - along with Whites. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: And I’ve even read where some of the reasons why in Virginia they, uh, changed the laws was because there were a few cases where free craftsman during the 1600s who had been indentured, you know, of African descent— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - who had been indentured had gotten to the position where they had indentured Whites working for them. And that’s when they really began to— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - dismantle that law and, you know, create a - a - a racial kind of— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - division, but— Joseph Elliott: Now, many of them bought slaves to use as slaves. Oloye Adeyemon: Sure they did. Sure they did. Joseph Elliott: Most of ’em, of course, to - to - to rise in society and not stay where they were. Now, William Ellison was a—talk about a craftsman. He - he, uh, supposedly built the best gins that, uh—cotton gins— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - built in - in South Carolina, and he was postmaster— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - of Stateburg— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - which was one of the most, um, um, I’d say, uh, well, the term is aristocratic if you wanna call it that. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, the Poinsetts and Rutledges, the two—Edward, the signer of the, um—the, uh, Declaration, and John, his brother, the second Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court and, uh, signer of the Constitution— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: They all lived in Stateburg, and his man was the postmaster. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And, you know, it’s just there’s so many contradictions— Oloye Adeyemon: Absolutely. Joseph Elliott: - and anomalies. It’s just, uh, uh, uh—it’s - it’s hard to say this is how slavery was— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - when people take some from Virginia, uh, take a settlement in, uh—or a plantation from Georgia and so on. But, uh, uh, yes, I know it’s important to discuss, but, uh, it’s - it’s really hard to say this is how slavery was. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: Because it wasn’t, and— Oloye Adeyemon: But the one thing— Joseph Elliott: It was different in so many different places. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, but the one thing that I think helps us to, uh, begin to define at least one aspect of it that’s a lasting legacy is when we begin to look at the conditioning that everyone—’cause it was a national institution. The North, in many ways, depended on its existence, even though it did not depend on—depend on the condition existing, uh, then— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: And so, I guess, the only thing I wanna say, and then move on, it’s just this is something that’s been, uh, a lot on my mind, and I’ve been involved in a lot of discussions. I’ve been involved with, uh, the genealogists at - at, um, Sanford and - and, um, uh, Burmingham. Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And even though many of them are Daughters of the Confederacy, they’re genealogists and— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: We’ve had discussions. And I think that the thing that seems most hopeful—and they’ve been very helpful in finding records that relate to Black genealogy during the slave era. And one of the things that has been—and it perhaps could’ve been a discussion that could have occurred sooner, but there seems to be a recognition—and, um—and again, I wanna pose this question to you—that, yes, there was such a thing as conditioning. And various people in the society, whether people are prepared to say that the Africans were part of a caste system or not during that period, but at least the recognition that, aside from the conditions, that even the person who - whose treatment was kind—let’s just say that were treated—they were buried with everyone else, ate with everyone else. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, some of the small farms in Kentucky where the slaveholder was out in the field with them, and they had grown up with them, and they were really close-knit— Joseph Elliott: True, really, to across the country, South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Nonetheless, he had certain choices as a free person, he—his initiative, his dreams. Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: When that child came out of the womb, even in those conditions, they had to learn their place because even if they were able to get away with certain things on that piece of property, could not go off and act the same way. Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And so everybody had to learn their place, and then some of what we’re looking at is not a carryover of the conditions of slavery, but perhaps the part that was the most, uh—had the most impact, which is the conditioning. Where, even when it ended, there were certain people that when they saw a person with the black skin, it meant a certain thing— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - or a person with the White skin, so that that person could not be accepted for the person that they were by others, and they themselves, quite likely, might limit themselves. And I say limit themselves— Joseph Elliott: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: Not only the person of African descent limited themselves because of maybe them accepting over years of conditioning— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - that I’m this way, but Whites feeling, “Well, I don’t have to do that.” And where people could have been much greater as a person had they not sat back and said, “Well, others can take care of this. I don’t have to—” Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: “- develop myself in these ways. I don’t have to worry about these things.” And I - I don’t wanna dwell on that, but I feel that since we had this opportunity, those that listen to this might—they’ve heard a point of view ’cause I’m expressing—you—they’ve heard the thing that you’ve said. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: But I guess I’m asking, what do you feel about that concept, or - or us taking a break on looking at the conditions and - and coming up with—but beginning to look at the conditioning. Joseph Elliott: I just understood what you’re saying. I wasn’t quite following what you said ’cause this is all prospect—or rather, retrospect of the prospect. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Yes. Joseph Elliott: And it’s, uh, not foresight but hindsight. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, absolutely. Joseph Elliott: You look back and - and see all the facts, and you don’t see none of it. Oloye Adeyemon: But if it is, in fact, accurate, then we can work on it. Joseph Elliott: So we can’t— Oloye Adeyemon: And maybe this can be the area— Joseph Elliott: But - but we can’t—we can’t say how these people thought, except when they express it in writing, and I’m not so sure I believe in that. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: But let me say these high ideals— Oloye Adeyemon: But - but maybe it’s the impact that we can look at. If this is indeed the legacy, then— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Perhaps when can go back now and see if we can deprogram ourselves. Joseph Elliott: Yeah. You—yeah, you were sayin’ “conditions,” and I - I thought, well, you—when you—but you—when you—the term “conditioning,” you - you - you mean by the term “conditioning,” imposing a mindset— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Joseph Elliott: - on people. See, and I wasn’t understanding what you were saying. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Joseph Elliott: I thought you were talkin’ about the conditions that existed. Oloye Adeyemon: No, no. Joseph Elliott: But you’re talking about conditioning people to think a certain way. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Joseph Elliott: That’s what you’re talkin’— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Joseph Elliott: Okay. I understand that, and they did. You’re right, and even ministers did that— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Joseph Elliott: - to their congrega—the White congregation— Oloye Adeyemon: Various pastors— Joseph Elliott: - to the extent— [Crosstalk 43:02] Joseph Elliott: What, right, the— Oloye Adeyemon: And - and - and people of African descent did the same thing in their churches, but for a different reason. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: They were using certain inspira—passages for inspiration or for, you know— Joseph Elliott: Sure. Sure. I agree. Yeah, and if—when I say, uh, these—the - the Whites had—and I do believe that Jeferson and many of them had very high ideals, uh, in Washington, in Madison. But all of these high ideals were undercut by a system that denied a person his humanity. [End of CT-2001-SC-009a_01] [Beginning of CT-2001-SC-009a_02] Oloye Adeyemon: After, uh, Reconstruction, in Carolina, uh, there was the system of sharecropping, you know, that developed, and, um, this was an area where that type of system was well-entrenched. Is that correct? Joseph Elliott: Yes. Well, yes, it was. Oloye Adeyemon: For the most part, most African Americans were sharecropping during the early part of the 20th century. Is that accurate? Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, were there African Americans living on the property here— Joseph Elliott: Yes, there was. Oloye Adeyemon: - during that period? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I understand—was it Waring, in fact, that, uh, imposed some fines on people for peonage? Joseph Elliott: Right, he did. Oloye Adeyemon: Can you talk about that some? Joseph Elliott: Uh, just that he did that, and - and he outlawed the White primary, uh, before he got involved in the Briggs/Elliott case. And then as far as the particulars— Oloye Adeyemon: Explain that peonage— Joseph Elliott: The particulars, I don’t— Oloye Adeyemon: - um, what that means—what - what that reason was. Joseph Elliott: I don’t know. That’s, uh—well, that’s—he - he considered it comparable to—roughly comparable to - to slavery. Oloye Adeyemon: What exactly was peonage? Joseph Elliott: Hmm? Well, peonage is - is - is just making someone— Oloye Adeyemon: That’s a little different than sharecropping, right? Joseph Elliott: Yes, makin’ people work without - without pay. He didn’t—he didn’t consider they made anything, and they couldn’t possibly make anything. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, so it was actually— Joseph Elliott: And that way of holdin’ people, you know— Oloye Adeyemon: It was—it was presented as sharecropping, but the difference was that it was— Joseph Elliott: At approximately the same— Oloye Adeyemon: - was done in such a way that the people would never receive anything for the crop, the half of the crop— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - that they kept. Joseph Elliott: That’s right, and they signed, um, articles of agreement to work for a particular amount. Oloye Adeyemon: And I take it there was enough of this— Joseph Elliott: And that constituted peonage in the—in the mind of, uh, many people, and, of course, that was confirmed by, uh, Judge Waring’s, uh, uh, decision on peonage, and again, the White primary, but I don’t know the particulars of either of these cases. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When - when did—when—do you have an approximate, uh, date when Waring was on the bench, and where did he start? Where did he start? Was - was he in Charleston? Joseph Elliott: Charleston. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: He’s from an old family in Charleston. They gave the property for, uh, Charles Towne Landing. They were—I don’t know. They were at least in the—they were certainly among one of the first families. There’s an organization called First Families— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, and they belong— Joseph Elliott: - in South Carolina between 1670 and 1700, and they - they belong to it. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, so Waring—the family was in Charleston, and the sat on the bench in Charleston. Was he with the—was he— Joseph Elliott: Well, it was definitely in the early—definitely in the ’40s. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: I can’t say, uh, early ’40s. Um— Oloye Adeyemon: And was he always the federal district judge, or did he start off locally and move up? Joseph Elliott: I - I couldn’t—I don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: But at any rate, later on, at the time of the Briggs case— Joseph Elliott: I know he was a district - district judge, uh, when Briggs, uh, arrived, um— Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you know, you said you didn’t know the details of that particular case, but— Joseph Elliott: About peonage and the White primary, but— Oloye Adeyemon: He was a federal district judge at that time? Joseph Elliott: Oh, I - I don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: I said I don’t the particulars of the—of his, uh, outlawing— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Joseph Elliott: - the White primary and - and - and— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - and his - his case dealing with peonage. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now— Joseph Elliott: His handling of the— Oloye Adeyemon: Right, but I understand that many Blacks felt he was a friend— Joseph Elliott: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - because of the position he—and he was consistent with it. Am I correct? Joseph Elliott: Yes, he was. Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, did you know anything about him? Had you met with anybody, um— Joseph Elliott: Well, I do know that—yes, I do know that, uh, like—again, he was from a very old Charleston family, and, uh, he had many, many White friends in his, uh, youth. And, uh—and I’m told that, uh, he married—his - his second wife was from up North, and this is when his views changed. Uh, there was a huge disparity between his views and that of his, either nephew or uncle, who was editor of the oldest newspaper in the South, oldest daily newspaper in the South— Oloye Adeyemon: And that paper— Joseph Elliott: - in Charleston. He was a curator. Oloye Adeyemon: Who was that person? Joseph Elliott: Thomas Waring. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, he was—I think he was his nephew, but I’m not positive. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: He could’ve been his uncle. Oloye Adeyemon: But definitely a close family member. Joseph Elliott: Oh, yes, either uncle or nephew. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Either Judge Waring was his uncle, or either Thomas Waring was Judge J. Waties Waring’s uncle, one or the other. Uh, in any case, uh, there’s a story about, uh—I think it was Mount Pleasant, where many Charlestonians had summer homes, and a house caught on fire. And all the Charlestonians, uh, rode to Mount Pleasant to see, uh, Judge Waring’s house ’cause they were just sure that lightning stuck his house, nobody else’s. [Laughs] So that’s how he—they felt about him after the, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Didn’t take long. Joseph Elliott: After the outlawing the White primary, actually. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: So, before Briggs. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But he was on that three-judge panel— Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: - uh, in the district court. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Now, one of those rulings, or two of them, were just himself. Right? Joseph Elliott: Right. Later, I believe—I think the first time, I believe, if I’m not mistaken, he had Parker and Timmerman and - and Waring. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But, uh—but I’m not—I’m not sure. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I’ve heard it said this part was, um— Joseph Elliott: Back in ’51, in February, I think that was his, but I’m not - not sure. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, I think so. Yes, I’ve heard that several times, read it several times. Joseph Elliott: And I think, before this occurred, uh, uh, the Legal Defense Fund of the NAACP sent Marshall, and he stated that he would not take the Summerton case if - if, uh, it was just about school buses. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And this what it supposedly started, uh, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - with, and, uh, he was gonna challenge everything. But he did not challenge the legality of segregation. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: This is after the—and the—during the pretrial hearing, uh, he was— Oloye Adeyemon: For which trial? Joseph Elliott: Briggs/Elliott. Oloye Adeyemon: Can I go back? Because you - you said something briefly, and I have heard a little bit about it, but I wanted to see if you could elaborate on it. The Pearson v. Board case occurred in the ’40s. Is that correct? Joseph Elliott: I think it was ’49. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: I think so. Oloye Adeyemon: And that was the case—well, no, that wasn’t the case. That case— Joseph Elliott: Involved his living in the wrong district. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, and— Joseph Elliott: And that’s why it was thrown out, and it was a single individual as well. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And another condition upon which Marshall would take the case was that, uh, it had to involve more than one person. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, based on this— Joseph Elliott: But like he’s throwin’ one individual case out. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. It seems that, um—and maybe it’s—I’m not remembering correctly, but I thought there were actually three steps. First, was the Pearson v. Board case. They presented it to the superintendent, their request for buses, and if not buses, gasoline, and it was turned down on both accounts. Then they sued in Charleston, and the suit—or it may have been—that first one may have even been in Manning, now that I’m thinking about it. It was in the local court, but the suit was filed, uh, about the buses, and they lost it. Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And then they later brought the first Briggs case, and it was about something to the effect of equal access to opportunity was something that was said, and it was turned down because— Joseph Elliott: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: What Waring, I think, had indicated was, “You’re asking for what essentially—what - what you’re asking for is kind of what you had.” Joseph Elliott: Enforcement under the Plessy v. Ferguson decision. Oloye Adeyemon: Right, and what you need— Joseph Elliott: Exactly was— Oloye Adeyemon: He - he actually advised them to come back with a case— Joseph Elliott: Or drop the case and file a new suit. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: Right. That’s what he advised them to do— Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: - drop the entire case and file a new suit. Oloye Adeyemon: Thus, weren’t those, in fact, just two stages in the Briggs case? I was asking if you could share anything about the Pearce case—Pearson case. Joseph Elliott: All I know is that he was in the wrong district. You know, there were— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: - 30—there were thir—believe it or not, in Clarendon County, there were 34 school districts. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And then they were consolidated into three. But during this time of Pearson, there was 34 districts, so, I mean, I don’t— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: It would be hard to determine who lived in what district. That would not be, uh, any— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - anything surprising at all— Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: - when in a county this small. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: Uh, if - if there were 34 districts, you would have problems. Oloye Adeyemon: So, back to the first time they went to Waring, you know— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: I think Thurgood Marshall was involved in that as well. Right? Joseph Elliott: He was. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now, wasn’t it the case that the Pearsons who had been involved in the earlier suit were not in the right district and weren’t even part of that? They weren’t even plaintiffs in the case. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Is that true? Joseph Elliott: Right. Just it was thrown out because - because he was not in the right district. He was not in the district that, uh, involved the court case. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. What can you tell me about the issues that were involved in the Briggs case? What - what were the issues as you understand it? And, more importantly, what can you tell me about both the position and the strategies in the White community to win the case? Was there ever any doubt that they would win? If - if so, what was—what was done to strengthen their position? Joseph Elliott: Okay. The way—I think they took the position that - that, uh, everything they would do would be based upon precedent and based upon the law, and this is how the case would be determined. And what, uh, the psychologist brought up in the—Kenneth Clark about the clock and the doll test was - was - was inconsequential because it didn’t have any— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, which was that Black children were - were then—were suffering from self-esteem issues because it wasn’t even so much that they were segregated, but— Joseph Elliott: Segregation affected their self-esteem. Oloye Adeyemon: They were segregated and surrounded by inferior things, and that produced to them an association with themselves, their skin color— Joseph Elliott: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: - as being inferior. Joseph Elliott: That - that is—that is, uh, one - one angle. And Van Hansen was the superintendent of the Washington schools, and he challenged that, and he—and he stated, “They’re just telling you what—” Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 11:03] was this from? Joseph Elliott: Was that a new what? Oloye Adeyemon: Was that what you’re speaking of? Joseph Elliott: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause they were also slow. Joseph Elliott: I think so. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: I’m not sure. I’m not sure what case it was. Oloye Adeyemon: But they challenged then the one. Joseph Elliott: But he—but he challenged it, and he testified in court that, uh, there was some deception involved on the part of like, uh, Dr. Clark. Oloye Adeyemon: What was his name? Joseph Elliott: Uh, Van Hansen. Oloye Adeyemon: He was the superintendent? Joseph Elliott: Yeah, the superintendent of the Washington schools. One just was in Washington, D - D.C. And, uh, he stated that, uh, uh, Clark, uh, tested only a small number of children in, uh, the Southern District, uh, 16. And - and his question was—he had dolls, and he says, “Which doll would you rather, uh, be like the most?” And, uh, 9 out of 16 chose the White doll, indicated that, you know, this segregation caused this, and their self-esteem suffered because of, uh, segregation. But he neglected to, uh, inform the - the court that he had tested hundreds of children before in - in Alabama— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - and, uh, Massachusetts. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: In Massachusetts, they used the term “congregation,” where the children—where there was congregation— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: - and segregation in Arkansas. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: And, uh, more children in - in, uh, Massachusetts chose a White doll than chose a White doll in Arkansas— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - indicating that, yes, it affects the self-esteem, integration, uh—congregation, that is, affects self-esteem more so than segregation. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, and that’s what he was—that was his defense against it. He didn’t want— Joseph Elliott: Right. Then, well, he did—Clark did not—Dr. Clark did not bring this out. He did not say that he’d tested these children. The only thing he wrote on was 16 children— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. I see. Joseph Elliott: - in, uh—in Summerton. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Joseph Elliott: So he left that out. So that was, uh, in a way, uh—there was some deception. In my opinion, that was deception. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, on the part of? Joseph Elliott: Of Clark. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: But even though that may have been the case, um, that would not undermine whatever constitutional issues were being challenged in terms of what the Constitution said about, uh, the—what the Fourteenth Amendment, how - how the Fourteenth Amendment was - was - was being interpreted. Joseph Elliott: You know, that’s for legal analysts to - to determine. It’s hard for me to see, you know, how much sociology was involved in it and how much sociology was the source of - of - of that decision, rather than precedence. I know that there was some departure from - from precedence, but I don’t know whether it was a radical departure or not because I’m not a legal analyst. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But, uh, I know that, uh, the - the original lawyers for Selman and Figg and - and, uh, S. E. Rogers— Oloye Adeyemon: Was it McFigg or Figg? Joseph Elliott: Figg. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was his first name? Joseph Elliott: Uh, I think it was Robert, but I’m not sure. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: And to complicate things, his middle initial was M. His middle initial was M, so— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: Some people think it’s McFigg. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, he was one of how many judges, Figg? Joseph Elliott: No, he was not a judge. He was a—he was a lawyer for, uh, Elliott in the beginning. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. Joseph Elliott: Initially, he and Emory, uh—Mr. Emory Rogers, he and Emory Rogers, or S. E. Rogers, and Robert M. Figg were the lawyers for, uh, Clarendon District 1. Oloye Adeyemon: Robert M.— Joseph Elliott: Robert M. Figg. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Okay. Joseph Elliott: F-I-G-G. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, now the Elliott we’re speaking about is your grandfather. Joseph Elliott: It’s my grandfather. Oloye Adeyemon: He was the sup—he was the head of the school board for the— Joseph Elliott: He was chairman of the school board. Oloye Adeyemon: Chairman of the school board. Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: And all the board members were defendants, as well as the superintendent— Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: - of the Clarendon—what was then Clarendon District 22, and the county superintendent was— Joseph Elliott: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: Were they all brought into the— Joseph Elliott: The docket states—the docket states, uh, Harry S.—I think—Briggs, Sr. versus R. W. Elliott. Maybe not even senior. Maybe, uh, that’s all. I’m not sure. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Joseph Elliott: I’m not—I - I can’t remember if that’s added to it or not. Is it? Oloye Adeyemon: I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. Joseph Elliott: I’ve seen the book. I’ve seen the docket. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: I’ve seen the book itself, too, but I can’t remember. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I’ve seen that, uh— Joseph Elliott: Maybe—I think, probably, it was the whole board, and - and - and it was— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I’ve actually seen that— Joseph Elliott: - and all the petitioners. Oloye Adeyemon: I’ve also seen their names too. Joseph Elliott: ’Cause - ’cause Briggs was the first petitioner. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, and they were— Joseph Elliott: So that’s - that’s why he was the plaintiff - plaintiff, and then—and Elliott was the chairman of the board, and that’s why, um, he was the defendant. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But it did involve—I would say it involved the entire board, surely, and, uh, all of the plaintiffs as well, yes. Oloye Adeyemon: And, again, how many—to be clear, you said that their defense attorneys were who? Joseph Elliott: Uh, initially, uh, S. E. Rogers from Summerton, the lawyer from Summerton, and Robert M. Figg. I don’t know where Figg was from. Uh, when they— Oloye Adeyemon: Did you know either one of those, uh, lawyers? Joseph Elliott: I knew—I knew, um, uh, Rogers. I don’t remember too much about— Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever have a chance to talk to him about the case? Joseph Elliott: Not about the case. I was just, uh, uh, 11 years old when it started. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: So I, uh—I was—go ahead. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, go ahead. Joseph Elliott: I’ve now forgotten what I was gonna say. Oloye Adeyemon: But you did meet— Joseph Elliott: You’re not my age, so you don’t forget things. [Laughs] Oloye Adeyemon: But both of them were, uh, the defense team, the lawyers that were helping them with the case. Joseph Elliott: Initially. Oloye Adeyemon: Initially. Joseph Elliott: And then John W. Davis took over when Burns got it all— Oloye Adeyemon: That was at the Supreme Court level. Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. He was not involved when it was just in Charleston. Joseph Elliott: Uh, no, he went to Supreme—he argued it before the Supreme Court, as did Marshall for, uh, Briggs. Oloye Adeyemon: Was he from West Virginia? Joseph Elliott: He was from West Virginia. That’s correct. Oloye Adeyemon: Where was he at the time that they called him to the court? Joseph Elliott: Uh, I think he was—I think he was in private practice. He was, uh—you know, he was Democratic, uh, candidate for President twice— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Uh, is that— Joseph Elliott: - of the United States. Oloye Adeyemon: Against who? Who - who was he running against? Joseph Elliott: Right. Goodness. Was it, uh, uh, uh, Ike? No, with Davis, who was it? Oloye Adeyemon: But he was well-respected as a constitutional lawyer. Joseph Elliott: See, I can’t remember when he ran. I’m sorry. Yeah, he was—he had argued more cases before the United States Supreme Court than any other man, over 200, and he was Solicitor General of the United States too. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, so he was well-respected. Joseph Elliott: Very well-respected. Oloye Adeyemon: Part of the strategy in involving him was the fact that the Supreme Court judges themselves had so much respect for him. Joseph Elliott: Exactly. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And they faced him, and, uh, uh, had to acquiesce to many of his, uh—not demands, but, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Because of his argument of constitutional law. Joseph Elliott: Exactly. Oloye Adeyemon: He knew it so well. Joseph Elliott: Right. He was, uh, uh—and - and that’s what he argued on the basis of. He didn’t bring in the sociology. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Whereas, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Right, and that’s what I think— Joseph Elliott: The NAACP did. Oloye Adeyemon: And that’s what I think caused the case to weigh so heavily on constitutional law because he argued so perva—persuasively on it, on that issue that the defense wasn’t—that the—that the - the - the - the appellants were first—were forced to - to argue against him or against that defense, you know, that— Joseph Elliott: Based on [crosstalk 18:25]— Oloye Adeyemon: So it became an issue of the Constitution. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Right. Everything’s got to be based on the law. Everything has to be based on precedence, previous cases. Uh, of course, there’s a term for it, something staris, but, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But, uh, sociology was brought in— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Joseph Elliott: - brought to bear and brought in very heavily. Oloye Adeyemon: Mostly by—mostly by the NAACP. Joseph Elliott: Legal Defense Fund, right. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, ’cause that - that basically, the defense side was—that was that’s irrelevant to this issue. Joseph Elliott: That’s irrelevant, and they didn’t, uh, even acknowledge it. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But the— Oloye Adeyemon: So, in fact, if Thurgood Marshall had not been prepared to argue on the basis of the Constitution, he’d relied entirely on that sociological data, he would not have won. Joseph Elliott: I think if Thurgood Marshall had, uh, uh, totally relied on the law and precedence, I don’t think he would’ve won. Oloye Adeyemon: Either. Joseph Elliott: No, I think—I think the sociology helped him a whole lot. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. Joseph Elliott: I think it swayed the court very much— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: - the, uh, uh—lookin’ in - in view of, uh, the later— Oloye Adeyemon: But that was in part because they didn’t see all of Clark’s data. Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: You’re think—you’re feeling that it was— Joseph Elliott: Well, uh, I, uh—I don’t know, um, um, about that, but, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Because if they had seen it all, you’re saying—or at least based on what this— Joseph Elliott: I think they would’ve had a different opinion. Oloye Adeyemon: A different opinion. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: I do. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But once again, they considered that irrelevant, the, um, uh—excuse me Figg and, uh—well, Davis did too. Um— Oloye Adeyemon: But Figg wasn’t at the Supreme Court level then. Joseph Elliott: No, Figg was not at Supreme Court. Oloye Adeyemon: He was—he was a—he was a— Joseph Elliott: Uh, but now— Oloye Adeyemon: What I’m trying to say— Joseph Elliott: Rogers did argue a small part before the Supreme Court, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: But not Figg. Joseph Elliott: Davis may—not Figg. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Joseph Elliott: Maybe, in order to - to, uh, uh, bestow this honor upon him, you just— Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Joseph Elliott: - if he had been able to argue—but this is a small town— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - attorney. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Although a good one, he was still a small town attorney. He was nothing of the stature of - of, uh, John W. Davis, and I don’t think—well, Thurgood Marshall proved to be, but, uh, very few— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - were of his stature. Oloye Adeyemon: So the—getting back, Figg and the other— Joseph Elliott: Rogers. Oloye Adeyemon: Rogers. S. E. Rogers? Joseph Elliott: S. E. Rogers. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, the two of them, uh, do you feel that that first case was won on its merits, or that the court wasn’t—was partial? You have no clue? Joseph Elliott: Locally, a lot of people do believe that, uh, when we—we, I say, America, the Supreme Court—departed from, uh, basic decisions upon the Constitution, upon the law itself, and throw in psychology, sociology, uh, that, uh, we’re not a country of law anymore. We’re a country of - of, uh, men, and we’re a country of, uh, uh—we’re subject to - to too many other variables. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And that shouldn’t be the case. I mean this is what a lot of people believed, but, uh, I think that was part of the, uh, uh, positive merits in the case, uh, the - the sociology. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, both sides— Joseph Elliott: Uh, it was— Oloye Adeyemon: - at different points, maybe because of expediency, relied on sociology? Joseph Elliott: I don’t—I don’t know where, [sigh] uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Do you understand what, uh—that, uh—what I’m asking? Joseph Elliott: Well, I - I—give me an example of - of - of Elliott relying on sociology. Oloye Adeyemon: You know, well, I’m asking. That’s why I asked it the way I did because there are obviously times when there have been rulings that have been made that took into consideration custom. The interpretation of the law was shaped by custom. Joseph Elliott: By custom, precedent. Oloye Adeyemon: And I’m asking, was - was the court in South Carolina partial because, uh—was the case won by the defendants in the federal district court in Charleston, in your estimation, based on the merit of the case and the argument that they had given, uh, or how much of it was a result of an acceptance of the status quo and the judges ruling the way they did in part because there were certain issues that were not taken seriously or not looked at? Um, it was like with, uh, some of those who were arrested for violence against Blacks in certain counties and were released, uh, where the evidence clearly indicated they were involved, and it might’ve even been common knowledge. I’m asking, in your estimation, how much of the decision relied on the argument of the defense lawyers, and how much of it was a matter of social precedent? Joseph Elliott: How much of the outcome, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: The decision that was made in the first round before it went to the Supreme Court. Was it going to the Supreme Court— Joseph Elliott: Oh, before this—oh, before it went to the Supreme Court. All right. Oloye Adeyemon: Before the Supreme Court, locally, uh, how—were there arguments given that—’cause, obviously, it was not equal, yet they won. Wasn’t that an indication that there was more than just the rule of law being used by the defense in defending their position? Joseph Elliott: I’m not—I’m not so sure. I can’t remember, uh, any - any particular, uh, sociological evidence being submitted by the—the, uh, defense. I understand— Oloye Adeyemon: If it weren’t presented, though, did it weigh at all in the way in which the judges treated the merit of the plaintiffs’ case? You understand what I’m getting at? The judges are sitting there making a decision. Was this decision made where any judge in the country would’ve looked at the evidence, looked at the argument on the defense side, looked at the argument on the plaintiffs’ side, and would’ve agreed with the judges’ decision? There were some cases in the South that were won by the defendants where, if they were looked at by a judge outside of the South— Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: They would’ve said this should’ve went the other way. This judge— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, ruled in a prejudiced way. And I’m - I’m asking whether you feel it would be fair to suggest that if the judges in fact had ruled in a prejudiced way, that there were sociological factors influencing the decision, whether there had been testimony presented or not. Joseph Elliott: I think the sociological factors were on the side of - of - of the Legal Defense Fund. I don’t think the sociological facts were, um, uh, again, submitted, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: - by the defense at all. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: Now, uh, maybe Waring saw it differently. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But I can’t remember any - any wording that would indicate that in— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - in what he stated, but, uh, uh, Parker and - and - and Timmerman, uh, set the stage up. You know, Plessy v. Ferguson is - is - is the precedent here. Oloye Adeyemon: But was it equal? It was separate, but was it equal? Was in Summerton what existed equal? Joseph Elliott: When? Oloye Adeyemon: During the time that that first—well, when—during the time of the Briggs— Joseph Elliott: Before the three percent sales tax? Oloye Adeyemon: - the federal—the federal district court case, Briggs v. Elliott, they were saying—I’m talking about the first one that was—well, the first one wasn’t— Joseph Elliott: Pearson. Oloye Adeyemon: - was, uh, returned actually. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: They said, you know, “You need to come back with a case that—” I have to—have to pull the— Joseph Elliott: Talkin’ about Briggs? Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Joseph Elliott: A pretrial hearing— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I’m - I’m realizing now that there would— Joseph Elliott: Yeah, that was not even— Oloye Adeyemon: That was never submitted. Joseph Elliott: - submitted as a case. There was a pretrial hearing. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. That’s right. That’s right. Joseph Elliott: And he dropped - dropped the suit altogether. Oloye Adeyemon: That’s right. Joseph Elliott: Uh, in 1950, I think it was, and - and, of course, the schools were not - not equal, uh, in terms of - of, uh, uh, physical facilities and in terms of, uh, teachers. The teachers were, uh, uh, African American teachers. The Black teachers, they were, uh, marginally certified. They had C certificates, B certificates. In fact, Charleston allowed them to teach, I think, with a 425 on the NTE, and the Whites had to make a 500 on the NTE. Um, so that then is—that was discriminatory in another way, but that—but that hurt the - the, uh, uh, Black students because they had these marginally certified people teaching ’em. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Joseph Elliott: And, uh, that went on—when I started down in Hampton, they had some C—but then they were old. They were old, but they were still teaching. Some had taught for 40 years, and they were still there, but they had—they were marginally certified, C certificates, D cert—B certificates. Now, you’re either certified or you’re not. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: You make the grade an A, or you don’t make it. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And if don’t you make it, you can’t teach, unless it’s a critical needs area. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But, uh, so— Oloye Adeyemon: Were teachers receiving equal pay at that time, Black and White teachers? Joseph Elliott: Oh, no, no, and the - the—what people expended here was—uh, for the Whites, were three times what they were for Blacks. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: And there was the issue about bus service. The Whites were— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - riding buses, and the Blacks weren’t. Joseph Elliott: Right. And, uh, one of the—one of the reasons—you asked me why yesterday. Why did—why did Marshall say this would be the last place he would take? And so did, uh, uh, Wilkins, President Wilkins, NAACP President Wilkins. He said, uh, uh, the Whites in Clarendon County are too powerful. Uh, the state pays only for teacher pay. That’s it. So, if the Whites pulled out and started another school, there’d be no buses. There would be no physical facilities in which to hold classes. There would be no lunches. There would be nothing except teachers, and where would they teach? In the fields? So, that’s the only thing the state paid for. Everything else was privately funded, and, of course—and - and - and - and this is one of the few, uh, positive arguments that - that, uh—that - that - that - that we had, really, that we had. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: I’m saying the - the added case— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - uh, uh, that they had then. Oloye Adeyemon: Well, this—I think it’s appropriate if— Joseph Elliott: Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: - in fact, you’re trying to present what— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. I’m lookin’ back. I am, and sincerely [crosstalk 29:08]— Oloye Adeyemon: - that group of people’s point of view was. I think it’s appropriate to say “we” because, you know, someone needs to try and put into context what the defense was thinkin’. Joseph Elliott: All right. I think that was on of the few things that - that - that, uh—that was legitimate. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Stating, all right, uh, the Whites— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: - did pay for just about everything through the taxes. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And the Black population didn’t, uh—paid very little, almost nothing ’cause they didn’t have anything. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Joseph Elliott: Uh, and they wouldn’t have had a school either if the Whites had pulled out. We did desegregate, but that’s another story. That’s in the future. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. Joseph Elliott: Um, but that was one of the arguments too. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And - and that’s why, um, uh, Judge Marshall said, “We, uh—that’s the last place I’d pick.” Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And Wilkins too. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And plus, the ratio. The ratio was, uh, second highest in the State of South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: In terms of Blacks? Joseph Elliott: In terms of Blacks, it was nine - nine— Oloye Adeyemon: What it was it? Joseph Elliott: - uh, 10 to 1. Some say 10 to 1. I’ve seen 10 to 1, and I’ve seen 9 to 1. Oloye Adeyemon: Nine to one in the county? Joseph Elliott: No, in, uh—not in the county. Oloye Adeyemon: In Summerton? Joseph Elliott: In the school district itself. Oloye Adeyemon: In the school district? Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Ninety percent Black? Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Highest in the state. Joseph Elliott: And, uh—and - and, uh, this, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: You said it was the highest in the state? Joseph Elliott: Now, Fleming—the funeral director, Fleming—second highest. Oloye Adeyemon: Second highest. Where was the highest? Joseph Elliott: Uh, I think it was Lee County. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Bishopville, Elliott. Oloye Adeyemon: Where is Lee— Joseph Elliott: South Carolina; Bishopville, South Carolina. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Lee County is about, uh—oh, I don’t know—100 miles north of us. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Joseph Elliott: Uh, I don’t know where they were, except that, uh, uh, with the cases, they—and - and - and a funeral director by the name of Fleming from Manning, stated that, uh, by his calculation—I don’t know how he calculated, but that the - the Blacks in Clarendon County were the—among the, uh, 29 poorest he—Clarendon County was among the 29 poorest counties in the United States. Oloye Adeyemon: As far as Blacks? Joseph Elliott: Probably, Clarendon. Blacks were the poorest. Uh, I don’t know. That’s according to his calculations, and I’m sure he was, uh, followed, but, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, and then that has to be— Joseph Elliott: But, uh, how he did it, I don’t know, how he calculated it, but it’s probably— Oloye Adeyemon: And that has to be contrasted with the fact that there were very many wealthy Whites here. Joseph Elliott: Exactly, yes, and - and - and this is somethin’ else I’ve read, too, in, uh, some books, uh, uh, uh, and - and - and - and this, uh, sounds racist, but this is also the views of some of the Whites in the area. Uh, and this is an impression I get from many of them, that, uh—that the - the Whites were very different from the Blacks. Because you go to Aiken, and it - it’s a different - different world, you know, the Blacks there, and this—and you go to 96, different world. There’s a sociological term—this is not a racist term. It is a sociological term called, uh, selective migration. Well, Black people go to seek opportunity. There’s also part that are just gonna hang around, and, uh, that’s what someone ended up with. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: I don’t know about that because, uh, there have been some test results that indicated that, uh, yes, they’re much, much lower. The achievement is much, much lower, uh, uh, markedly lower— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - um, uh, in terms of, uh—and - and ability— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - in terms of test results now. Uh, but at the same time, there’s some Black students who score well above the top White students. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: So, even in Summerton. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Joseph Elliott: So, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Now that raises a very interesting issue because, uh, I remember hearing and reading—heard it from people that were close to Marshall, but I’ve also read that Marshall initially didn’t wanna touch Clarendon County, but he was persuaded to, you know— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - eventually. And when he was persuaded to, uh, the support for a case being taken—put together here in Clarendon County, the support for it was strongest, other than in Summerton. And that when Marshall said, “We wanna use Summerton because the disparity between the White schools and the Black schools is greater in Summerton than it is in Manning and some of these other places where you’ve got people ready to produce a case. You need to get me a case in Summerton.” And I understand that they had a tough time getting one because the people in Summerton were more afraid to do so. And I’m wondering, um—because that would seem to support what you just said. But, on the other hand, uh, I’ve heard it said that it was the conditions under which the people had lived. And I’ve been tryin’ to understand, was it—did it have something to do with the fact that it was a resort city and called, you know, a summer town, you know. Joseph Elliott: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Well, did it have something to do with, uh, a more rigidly enforced status quo? Because it—there seems to be some evidence that the condition of the people in Summerton may not have had to do as much with breeding as—again, back to the conditioning—that they had existed in conditions where - where initiative might not have been as rewarded as it would be in other places. So, people who couldn’t take that went other places, and those that— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - accepted it stayed, but the fact that some people were conditioned during slavery, and didn’t go anywhere when the Civil War ended, stayed right there on the homeland, waited for the master to come back from the war. Joseph Elliott: They had to just wait, simply to see how it went. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: And I’m wondering if that is not equally a testimony against slavery by suggesting this behavior that you might have a hard time understanding is very understandable if you understand this person’s world is very small. And they’ve accepted that— Joseph Elliott: Oh, sure. Oloye Adeyemon: You know, so I hear what you’re saying. Joseph Elliott: I said, uh—and I understand what you’re saying. Oloye Adeyemon: But do you recognize that there may be some validity in the other— Joseph Elliott: Sure, I understand that. Sure, sure, and, uh, once again, of course—of course, this goes without saying, but, uh—and hears, uh, uh, about y’all goin’ to school and goes home, and that his mama don’t care one iota about books, and can’t read, and who gives a rip? And - and - and there’s a lot of that still. And then, when you get no support, you’re not gonna pursue that. You’re not gonna pursue books. When you get support for sports, you’re gonna pursue sports. When you get a pat on the back for—whatever you get a pat on the back for, that’s what you’re gonna pursue. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And a lot of that was the - the case here, but when you talk about, uh, uh, White support for desegregation, that was—that was here, and - and - and the Whites thought that - that, uh, the board members could do something about that. They could—rather than - than, uh—than being, uh, uh, uh, uh, for racial reasons, uh, admit or not admit ’em to - to - to White schools on some other basis, such as - as, uh, personality. You had a personality test, or a, uh, ability test. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: And, uh, if they did that, that’d be fine. And that’s what— Oloye Adeyemon: Was that a strategy in the case, or that was just a strategy to deal with the Supreme Court decision? Joseph Elliott: A strategy after desegregation Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: Uh, freedom of choice. Desegregation just was - was called the Briggs dictum. This is what, uh, the - the - the - the, uh, idea was of, uh, even Figg and - and - and - and Rogers. Well, this stated this after the case that the Briggs dictum—and, yeah, I think even in another case. And it was not adopted throughout the South that, uh, this meant desegregation, freedom of choice. If the, uh, brighter Blacks wanted to go—and this what was believed back then—wanted to go to the White school, then fine. Let ’em go. That’s fine. Then there would be—and by 1970, I think, there were 28, only 12 percent, but 28, uh, Blacks were goin’ to - to Summerton High School, uh, and that was fine. But, uh, nine to one integration was a different thing, and that’s not what the Briggs dictum meant. That dictum meant—that’s not what the, uh, uh, case decided. The case then decided it was— Oloye Adeyemon: Now, we’re talkin’ about the— Joseph Elliott: And in 1970, they reversed the— Oloye Adeyemon: - the Charleston case or the—or the Washington case? Joseph Elliott: Well, actually, it was, uh—the Briggs dictum influenced, uh, the - the - the, uh, application of the Brown decision as well. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: The Briggs dictum did. Oloye Adeyemon: And it was something that was already decided before it went to the Supreme Court. Joseph Elliott: Uh, desegregate? No, no, no, no— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Wait. Joseph Elliott: I - I said Figg and - and - and - and Rogers, after this case— Oloye Adeyemon: How did they go—how were they, um—they were only involved in the Charleston case. Joseph Elliott: Yes, they were involved in it, but, uh, this was the interpretation in - in - in, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Just their personal interpretation? Joseph Elliott: Yeah, this is their personal interpretation. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Okay. Okay. Joseph Elliott: And they— Oloye Adeyemon: That was what they were saying to people— Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - was what desegregation meant— Joseph Elliott: Yeah. Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - when people were asking, “What does this mean?” Joseph Elliott: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Joseph Elliott: And I think—I think the Supreme Court accepted that. The Supreme Court, well, it’s separate but equal. If you—if you look at the movie, uh, Warren said, “We can’t—we’ve heard Judge—we’ve heard Marshall and we’ve heard Davis. We’re gonna decide for Marshall, but we can’t call it the - the Briggs case because that’s in the Deep South. Let’s call it—let’s name it for a border state to take the pressure off of the Deep South.” Now, that - that was in the movie, uh, and that’s probably why they—and that’s probably the truth. That’s probably why it was called Brown instead of Briggs, when Briggs actually was the first on the docket. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, and was the one that was argued in the Supreme Court case. Joseph Elliott: Uh, Thurgood—well, I’m not so sure that Brown wasn’t ever argued, but I know that, uh—that - that Thurgood Marshall didn’t argue Brown. Thurgood Marshall argued Briggs. Oloye Adeyemon: That’s what I heard. Joseph Elliott: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: But, uh, this is—this was true until the Supreme Court changed its decision in 1968, uh, and - and considered the case to mean integration rather than desegregation. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. That was in what year? Joseph Elliott: Six—1968. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, so— Joseph Elliott: And so - so, White flight took place then to Clarendon Hall— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Joseph Elliott: - in— Oloye Adeyemon: And that was why here locally, up until then, it was a freedom of choice issue, where—and, I guess, the assumption with freedom of choice is, if some Blacks want to come to the White school, and, you know, they can function—now was there any provision with that that they were gonna be tested or they had to achieve— Joseph Elliott: This was—this— Oloye Adeyemon: - in order to stay in the school? Joseph Elliott: This assumption was - was entertained by the White population. The board would take care of it, and this is what would - would happen, but now— Oloye Adeyemon: But in the implementation, it was, in fact, freedom choice rather than— Joseph Elliott: Um, it was freedom of choice. Oloye Adeyemon: So, who made the final decision that it would be a freedom of choice basis— Joseph Elliott: That was— Oloye Adeyemon: - in the implementation? Joseph Elliott: Uh, that’s—that was the - the—what - what the - the Briggs dictum was. Oloye Adeyemon: From—and was a ruling that was— Joseph Elliott: From Briggs v. Elliott. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - that was defined by the court. Joseph Elliott: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: This is how you had—was—well, did they define how - how to— Joseph Elliott: Well, they did not—did not—didn’t— Oloye Adeyemon: But wasn’t it locally defined? Joseph Elliott: - define it, but the publicity that it—that it got, uh, um, evidently was accepted, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: But wasn’t it— Joseph Elliott: The Briggs dictum was accepted by - by the Supreme Court and the

Description

Elliott worked in the Aiken County Public Schools district before becoming the headmaster at Clarendon Hall, a private school in Summerton, South Carolina. Elliott covers a history of South Carolina, its involvement in the slave trade, major families involved in the trade local to Clarendon county, and then has a discussion with the interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon, about the ethics of slavery and segregation.

Date Created

07/11/2001

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