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Oral History Project - Lambert, Elizabeth Part 2
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These interviews are presented here in their original form, unmodified, in an effort to preserve and share the history of our park and its surrounding area. The memories, comments, and viewpoints shared by interviewees in the materials of the New River Gorge Oral History Project and related documents do not represent the viewpoints of the National Park Service.
TAPE THIRTY-TWO
Interview # NRGNPP 032
Mrs. Elizabeth Lambert File N RGN PP 032—T
Interviewer:
William E. Cox
National Park Service
April 7, 1981
WC: We were talking about Brown's on the South side of the river and you mentioned the Company Store. Who owned the Company Store?
EL: Eli Smokeless owned it when they had the company. Then Mary Francis Coal Company had it. Whoever was operating the coal mines owned the store. But there was a Mr. Rupert that was always store manager because he was connected with some of these people. And he was always the store manager. All the years I was down there.
WC: I see. Was there a mines on the Browns side?
EL: Yes.
WC: Where was it located?
EL: On the hill.
WC: Upstream or downstream?
EL: No. Upstream.
WC: OK. Now this was the Eli Smokeless Coal Company. Now can you tell me how many people lived over on the Browns side?
EL: I don't know, but there was more colored people over there than they was White. I just couldn't say. But they had a one room school house, too, on that side.
WC: This was for the Black people?
EL: No. This was for the on that side. And one of the teachers that boarded with me taught over there, too. But to say just how many people were over there, 1 just don't really. I just couldn't say.
WC: How about houses? Could you guess how many houses were there?
EL: Well, I'd say about a hundred. Not more.
WC: How did people cross the river between Nuttallburg and Browns, or South Nuttall as its called by the Railroad.
EL: There was a swinging bridge. They crossed the river by the swinging bridge.
WC: What do you remember about the swinging bridge? Any stories or crossings that might have been dangerous because of high water?
EL: Yes. The water was up so high that it was dangerous a lot of times, or it looked like it was to me a lot of times, because it was almost up to the bridge. And they had this cart that brought coal to their employees that lived on our side of the river. And they'd come across that swinging bridge with that mule and that cart. And if you was fixing to go across, you waited until they got across; or if you was on the bridge, you had to back up. So that was the way that they had to travel. And you went down the river on the trains on our side. And when you came up the river, you came up on the Browns side and anybody on our side had to come across the swinging bridge to get back home.
WC: Can you tell me about this mule cart again that carried the coal. I’m interested in that. What type of wheels it had, how it was made?
EL: Well, it just looked like wagon wheels, and just a cart. And it had this mule. And there was just big wagon wheels on it and it was just a cart.
WC: I wonder how much coal it could carry?
EL: Well, maybe a half—ton.
WC: Would the Company furnish this?
EL: Oh, yeah. And see, they had people that lived right at the end of the bridge on our side of the river. And they would haul coal over there to them and that's how they got their coal. And they, of course, the people would have to have coal and that's how they taken it to them. But I would say a half— ton of coal.
WC: What was the recreational opportunities at Nuttallburg at this period of time?
EL: Well, there wasn't anything. There was a ball park out in front of the Club House there where I lived. And the kids would come out there and they would play ball. And that was just about all they was; they just wasn't anything. Of course, they had a show at Elverton and the kids would get to go to the Elverton picture show (the parents that would let them go). It was dangerous walking up and down the track.
WC: Why was it dangerous? The trains?
EL: Oh, yeah.
WC: Were there any deaths along the track?
EL: Oh, sure.
WC: Do you know how many?
EL: Well, I don't know how many, but I know one Sunday night we went to Elverton to a picture show, and we came back home and came across the bridge. Just before we got across the bridge, well, one of the young men from our side of the river, had been killed. They thought that he had just set down on the railroad track and just went to sleep. And his shoes were knocked off of his feet. (To someone else in the room: “Do you remember the Siner boy?”)
WC: OK. Was this baseball that the children played?
EL: Yeah. Out in the field there by the Club House.
WC: Were there mining teams, baseball teams?
EL: Yeah. Now Fordson Coal Company had a team, and my husband played on that. But they had to go to Edmond to play ball, because there was no park down there for practicing or anything. They had to go to Edmond on the cliffs.
WC: Did he have a uniform?
EL: Oh, yeah. He had a uniform. He had a Fordson uniform.
WC: What were some of the other teams that they played?
EL: Oh. They played Gallagher on Payne Creek, and they played Winona. I don't know. It's been so long ago. I know, maybe Fayetteville and different teams. Most of the mining camps in those days...and before my husband came to New River, why he played for Crown Hill down in Kanawha County for one of the coal camps.
WC: What position did he play?
EL: Outfield. Something about outfield. That's all I can tell you.
WC: Do you remember if the miners had special privileges if they played on the company's ball team?
EL: I don't remember Nuttallburg, anything about it. But I remember at Crown Hill in Kanawha County, they offered my husband one of the nicest houses if he would move on the job and play ball there for them. No way would I go. They killed them just about every Saturday night down there. Now that I remember.
WC: How about fishing on the New River.
EL: Yeah. My husband did a lot of fishing on the New River and they'd set trot lines and, gee! You'd be surprised.
WC: What would they catch?
EL: It was, ah, what are the fish that you have to skin? A catfish.
WC: What about bass or any other types of fish?
EL: No. Never anything but catfish that I 've ever seen come out of the New River.
WC: Did they use any other methods of fishing besides the trot line?
EL: Yeah. He'd go down there and set on them river banks on Saturday night and fish all night long. And I t 11 tell you something else. He'd have me make him dough balls, 'he'd call them. And I 'd make them out of corn meal and put cheese in them and this was good bait to catch the fish on.
WC: What else was used for bait?
EL: Well, I…well, he'd a lot of times take cheese and stuff like that if he was just going to set on the bank. But if he was going to set the trot line, why it was always cheese balls, cause I got to make 'em.
WC: You mentioned Elverton and the show. Do you know when the movie theater was put in at Elverton?
EL: No. I think it was there. I don't remember if it was there when we went, but I expect it was.
WC: Now, Elverton is upstream from Nuttallburg? About how many miles?
EL: Yes. I’d say it was about two miles on the South side.
WC: On the South side?
EL: Yes.
WC: And where was the movie theater located at in Elver ton?
EL: Right on the river bank.
WC: Was it on the downstream side of the town?
EL: Yeah. Right beside of the store, right on the river bank, like you'd say Browns store set. Well, that was just like the theater up at Elverton set, just right on the river bank.
WC: Was it across the railroad tracks, or between the railroad tracks and the river?
EL: Between the railroad tracks and the river.
WC: And it was beside the company store?
EL: Yeah.
WC: Do you remember what was on the downstream side of Elver ton? Any large buildings that you might recall having been in that location?
EL: Nothing. The largest building I remember up there was the club house. All those coal companies had to have club houses.
WC: Would it have been across the railroad tracks, away from the river?
EL: Yes. Across the railroad tracks from the theater and the store on the other side. And at Caperton, see, they had another swinging bridge on up at Caperton. I guess you 've heard of that one?
WC: Yes. What did it look like?
EL: Well, very much like the one at Nuttallburg. Just a swinging bridge with ropes and the piers and everything.
WC: Wooden planking for the walk?
EL: Yes. And I know there was three of us walked up there one day, just us ladies. And we'd go to the store, you know, and look around. And we'd come back and we had no more than got off the Caper ton bridge than a work train came down and something on that work train, something they had on that work train, caught on one of those wires and turned that bridge up just like that. And this lady that was here today, her sister was one of them. And we weren't down the road very far when that happened.
WC: At the swinging bridge on the Caperton side of the river, on the North side, there is a real large structure that still stands there today. Do you know who lived there or who built that home?
EL: No. I don't.
WC: Do you recall it being there when you were visiting there?
EL: Oh, yeah.
WC: Was there much visiting between the coal camps among the people, such as you 've just mentioned.
EL: No. Really and truly, I knew the lady that operated the club house up there, and the doctor, the young doctor that was up there. And, of course, his parents lived at Nuttallburg. His father was depot agent there, that Mr. Hill I mentioned. Dr. Hill then went to Elverton when he. I guess his first practice was there at Elverton.
WC: Do you remember the McKendree Hospital?
EL: Yeah .
WC: Can you tell me about that?
EL: Well, I just remember the McKendree Hospital and I remember it better from being over there the three months when we visited my mother and my father when they were there at Terry, than T do being on down the river; because we always went, if we went to the hospital, we went to Montgomery Hospital.
WC: Why did you go to Montgomery?
EL: Because it was closer and that was home to us down there.
WC: I see. What did the people think about the hospital being down there in the river area, the McKendree Hospital? Was there favorable. . .
EL: Oh, yeah! - Of course, people were real proud of it…and all like that, you know. But to us, that was out of the way. I mean, to what Montgomery Hospital, because we'd go down on one train and come back on the next. When you'd go up the river to McKendree, it was kind of unhandy.
WC: I see. Do you remember any ferrys operating across the river?
EL: No. I don't know of any.
WC: OK. I think this just about concludes our tape. I did want to ask if you were familiar with the NRA, the National Recovery Act, that passed in 1933, if you remember that and how it might have affected the area and the Gorge? And prior to that, before we close, do you have any memories of the Depression?
EL: Oh, yeah. I don't mind.
WC: Could you tell me about that?
EL: Yeah. I have memories of that, that we most of us played cards at nighttime for entertainment, because they didn't work and there wasn't anything to do. I remember that real well.
WC: What year was this?
EL: That was in the 30's. Maybe 32, I think, ' 32 .
WC: What type of cards did you play?
EL: We’d play bridge. And if the mines was going to work, they'd work on Saturday and instead of working through the week. And we'd always stay up later on Saturday nights and some of women would say, “Well, I don’t see why they have to work on Saturdays when they didn't have any work all week.” Can you imagine that? That was the way it was.
WC: Did the men play bridge, too?
EL: Oh, yeah.
WC: And during the Depression, vas it just a matter of there was no work?
EL: No. There was no work now. And there was some of the people that really just didn't have anything. However, I can say for one thing, we just wasn't as hard up as some of them because I had kept the teachers before and my husband had worked and we had saved a little bit. But, of course, when it was over, we didn't have anything. But this is the truth and the superintendent told me there was two families on the job that didn't take...what'd they call it, relief or something, or commodities, is that what they'd give out?
WC: There was something available.
EL: Well, alright. He said there was two families on the job. We were one of them and, this lady that was here today, her sister and her husband was another one of them. The Alexanders and the F ryes. Mister, not Garvey, but Hubbs.
WC: Who provided this relief? Was it the State or the Red Cross?
EL: Well, the State, I guess. And then they had the CC Camps for these boys, and they put them and those boys, of course, sent so much money back. The parents got so much from what those boys. And then for a while, I remember they let some of the men work on the road going out of Winona. You know, to make a dollar, beating up rocks or whatever.
WC: Where were the CCC Camps located, the Civilian Conservation Corps?
EL: Over at Lookout, over there at that cliff top.
WC: Is this the one that worked in the Babcock State Park?
EL: Yes, uh—huh, yes. I had a boy that worked there in the Club House for me, doing things, and he would. I really missed him when he left the Club House.
WC: So during the Depression, you had the Club House?
EL: No. Now, during the time they had the CC Camps I had the Club House.
WC: Oh, OK. I 've heard times were difficult in southern West Virginia during the 1920's. Do you remember the folks having a difficult time then, similar to what we call the Depression in the '30's.
EL: No. Now, in the 20's, I was married in '22, and I was 17 years old when
I was married. So, 1 don't remember a whole lot about that. And, of course,
WC: My father didn't work around the mines at that time, or anything. So I didn't really know a lot about that. I don't remember a whole lot about that.
WC: Quickly, one last thing. I remember you mentioned when you ran the Club house... Boarding House, that you mentioned that you got ten percent off on your groceries. Can you tell me a little bit about the groceries that you would buy? Where you purchased them?
EL: Well, go to the Company Store and buy whatever I wanted. And whatever I bought, they gave me ten percent off. And, then, I'd cash scrip for 25 percent on the dollar, you see. And then I 'd pay that scrip on my grocery bill.
WC: Can you tell me how scrip operated? I’m not familiar with this.
EL: Well, those people down there, they didn’t have cash. Well, they'd go and draw their scrip at the Company Store and then they'd want cash for it and they'd bring it to you. You could give them seventy—five cents for a dollar. And, on Saturdays you could cash about all the scrip that you could...
WC: So they'd get scrip in advance of their salary and this would be deducted from their salary.
EL: Yes, uh—huh.
WC: Was there a discount on this, or an additional amount of money taken for the handling of the scrip, you might say?
EL: You mean, through the Company?
WC: Yes.
EL: Well, no. I think that was just redeemable in merchandise as far as the Company was concerned. But they'd take it out and sell their scrip so they would have money for whatever they wanted on the weekends. This is usually when you would get scrip. Well, when I got ten percent off on my groceries and cashed scrip and get 75 cents... or, 25 cents off of a dollar, well I got my groceries cheaper, I expect, than the Company could buy them, if the truth was known. Cause that was 30 cents.
(Man in the background asks question: Why didn't you buy your groceries from down from that other town?)
EL: Oh, from Meadow Bridge. Well, that. They came along, but I didn't get any discount there. But you could get more. There was more things, you know. A little store like that and they had to send the stuff down from Winona to Nuttallburg, from the Winona store to Nuttallburg store, every week. Maybe a couple of times so we could...well, a truck would come down and bring the things. Well, you could Imagine, you know.
WC: Who owned the Winona store?
EL: Maryland-New River Coal Company.
WC: Ok. I keep thinking of these additional things. Another thing is the Nuttall family itself. Can you give me your recollections of the Nuttall family, their names and so forth?
EL: No. I can't give you the names. The girls of the Nuttall's was up at the Club House a couple of times while I operated the Club House, and they would tell me about setting out there on the bank during World War I when the soldiers would go by and waving at them, you know. And they was telling me about they had a piano and they had these big halls in the Club House. And they said one night they were setting there playing this piano and a big boulder came off of the hill and came through that hall, you know, and all this kind of stuff. 1 don't know their names. I couldn't tell you.
WC: The Nuttall's had left when you had arrived there?
LC: Yes. And then, you see, the Club House was their home and that was never to be sold or torn down. Well, in due time, Mr. Garvey did sell the building and it was torn down. When I left Maryland-New River, when they closed at Winona, I went to Rainelle and taken over the King Coal Hotel. I was manager of the King Coal Hotel. Well, during the time I was there, the Nuttalls came to the Hotel. Well, Mr. and Mrs. Garvey was staying with me there at the Hotel during that time. Mr. Garvey came to me and wanted to know if he could have the dining room for a meeting. And I said yes. So they went into the dining room after we got through with the dining room to have this meeting. So, it wasn't long till I was called in. And I didn't know what was going on, of course. And, while Mr. Garvey was a wonderful person, they had him on the carpet for getting rid of the Club House. And, of course, they knew that I was the manager of the Club House and how I had kept it, you know. I went in there and I started a papering and paintin' and these big high ceilings and all that stuff. And, they wanted to know how many rooms. I could tell them how many windows and everything about it. But, I really hated it because I was called in, you know. Because I didn't want to say anything about. . . against Mr. Garvey in no way, shape or form. But it was gone, and that was the way it was.
WC: When was the house torn down, the Club House?
EL: Well, I think it was torn down in about '45 or t 46.
WC: When did you leave there?
EL: I left there in '45.
WC: Going back to the groceries. We're interested in the type of foods people had and ate and so forth. Can you just list the things that you had purchased ?
EL: Well, they had the same things that they had in any other store. They had meats and they had some vegetables. Course we didn't have fresh vegetables every day they came in, you know. But, just beans, potatoes.
WC: Most of your purchases would be canned goods, I guess?
EL: Well, yeah. Of course, we got green stuff in occasionally. And another thing that we had down there was the peddlers in the summer time. The peddlers would come to the bridge.
WC: Where did they come from?
EL: Back out there at High Coal, and all around in there. And they brought their produce down there. And I had one man from High Coal that delivered produce for me for years down there. Then when I went to Winona to the Club House, why, 1 bought my potatoes, my eggs by the case and everything. The chickens, back then, you know, you couldn't just go to the store and get a chicken ready dressed and ready to cook. If we had chicken on Sundays, we had to get it from the peddlers and we had to dress the chickens on Saturday evening or Sunday morning, however. And this is the way that you had to do when it came to things like that.
WC: Did you or other people raise chickens or hogs or anything like that?
EL: Yeah. Well, one year we got really smart and we raised two hogs. Well, it was real nice because we had a place there, and my son belonged to the 4—H. So he ordered chickens and his father taken care of them and we had some real nice chickens. But, of course, we just used those for the table. But, that was the end of our raising anything down there.
WC: Did the men do any hunting for game or anything?
EL: Oh, yeah. My husband, he went every year. Deer hunting…
WC: In the Gorge?
EL: No. Of course, they had to leave out of there, but there was several of them that went. They went deer hunting for a week and they went squirrel hunting for a week up in Pocahontas County and all around up in there.
WC: Were there any game in the Gorge itself, deer or bear?
EL: No. Not that I know of. I don't think anybody ever...small game, rabbits. I don 't remember anybody ever catching any rabbits.
WC: You didn't see anything like that, huh?
EL: Rabbits or anything you had down there was what you had for pets or something like that.
WC: We've covered just about everything that I can think of. Do you have anything that you would like to add or anything that we might have left out?
EL: No. I don't know. I've said so much and not a whole lot either. But, it was a lovely camp and a lovely company to work for. I’ll have to say, Fordson Coal Company and Maryland New River, you wouldn't have wanted to work for a better company. As far as I was concerned, they was tops.
WC: It would probably be helpful just for the records here if you could recall some of the mine superintendents and officials and so forth and name those. That might be helpful.
EL: Well, the first one when I went to Nuttallburg, was a Mr. C. F. White from Staunton, Virginia, was Superintendent of the Fordson Coal Company. Alright then, when Maryland-New River taken over in '28, why, a Mr. Ron Caglan was Superintendent. And then we had a Mr. Ray Hubbs that came in as Superintendent. Oh, we had another one or two that I just can't remember exactly.
WC: Did a Mr. Campbell, Mr. Ray Campbell...?
EL: Yeah. Ray Campbell, now he, of course, worked in the store. They hired him and he just worked in the store. He finally became a store manager. Course I was with him for many a day. He was at Kaymoor when I was at Nuttallburg, working for that company down there, you see. I know Ray Campbell real well. And... but, he is looking after Nuttall's estate now. I think maybe his son is going in to it, because I think maybe he isn't too well. He had this scrip, when they quit using the scrip. Well, he taken the scrip to his home and his wife kept fussing for him to get it out of there. So he said he was going to Fayetteville one day and he put the scrip in his car and he stopped on Cotton Hill Bridge and throwed that scrip off in the river down at the Cotton Rill.
WC: Do you know how large of an amount that was?
EL: No, I don't know. I could have found out by asking him. One of the men that vas killed and throwed in the river on the South side one Saturday night — now Mr. Campbell was working at the Company Store at Kaymoor at the time, and the body came up on our side of the river just opposite the Store. And he said they burned that body down there when that body came up on that side of the river. And he said they could hardly stay in that town. I remember that, you know.
WC: Why did they burn the body?
EL: Well, cause they wanted to make away with it because some of them had killed him. And that's why they wanted to make away with the body.
WC: Oh, the people that had committed the murder?
EL: Yeah, uh—huh.
WC: I see. What about the Company Store itself. I've heard that it had some type of ammonia or something of its own type of refrigeration. Do you recall anything about this?
EL: Yes, uh—huh. And I was there, I guess, when that was put in. Well, I don 't remember what kind of ammonia or anything like that, but they just make big cakes of ice. And see, we had refrigerators. I had a Leonard Ice—Box under it. I never will forget it, and they brought ice around, you know. And made the ice right there at the store. Then after my brother—in—law died, he died with the typhoid fever and two of the other electricians had it, why, Fordson Coal Company put in a filtering plant there in Nuttallburg. And that building was in that picture there you showed me today.
WC: OK. Well, I sure appreciate your time and you've been most helpful in providing this information for us. Thank you so much.
EL: Well, you're quite welcome.
[End of Tape]
Description
Homemaker, operated a boarding house, Nuttallburg
Date Created
04/07/1981
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