Audio
Oral History Interview with Henry Lawson Pt. 2
Transcript
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, it's part two of, uh, the interview with Mr. Henry Lawson. Uh, it's in the town of [unintelligible 00:11] Summerton, South Carolina. Uh, uh, conducted on July 16, 2001, at the Town Hall of Summerton, South Carolina. Uh, Mr. Lawson, um, we talked about how the case came about, and almost all the interviews have talked about the case, about the schools. Uh, there are a few things that you have direct knowledge about that have not been covered, so I'd like to focus our attention at this point on the NAACP. Uh, can you name for me again the first president of the NAACP, of the Clarendon chapter?
Henry Lawson: His name was Flutie Boyd from Manning.
Oloye Adeyemon: Spell that for me.
Henry Lawson: That's F-L-U-D-B-I-E. I believe that's what it was. And B-O-Y-D.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. [Unintelligible 01:01].
Henry Lawson: He was from Manning, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: He was from Manning. So when—what year did—did you—what did he—did that chapter start operating?
Henry Lawson: Uh, around, uh, 1950. I believe I'm close.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, it was pretty close to the time of the case.
Henry Lawson: Yeah. Well, the other—
Oloye Adeyemon: That's what really got them involved, was—
Henry Lawson: That's—well, what really got them involved as to when they saw that—that we had a case that would be valid.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And that's when the NAACP—the NAACP existed in bigger cities but not here.
Oloye Adeyemon: In South Carolina.
Henry Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: They were in Columbia [crosstalk 01:41].
Henry Lawson: That's it because when I was in college, I joined the NAACP chapter.
Oloye Adeyemon: In—where were you at at that time?
Henry Lawson: I was in college. Uh, I was in 1947. Uh, uh, one of my constituents came to me one day and said to me that, uh, said, "Henry, are you a member? Are you a member of the NAACP?" I said, "What's that?" He [unintelligible 02:01] I didn't know what it was.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And so, he said, "Well, it—" I said, "What—what—what's that?" He said, "Well, [unintelligible 02:08] equal rights and those kinda thing." I said, "Sure, I'll join."
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Where were you at that time?
Henry Lawson: I was in college.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where?
Henry Lawson: Allen University.
Oloye Adeyemon: And Allen University's in?
Henry Lawson: In—in Columbia.
Oloye Adeyemon: It's in the AME Church? [Crosstalk 02:20].
Henry Lawson: It's [crosstalk 02:20] AME Church school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And, uh, you had left, uh, there, uh, having come outta the congregation at Liberty Hills, which [crosstalk 02:28].
Henry Lawson: That's right. That's—that's one of the reasons that I told them [crosstalk 02:31], because I am AME.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And the church and the school belonged to us, and then there were some benefits in terms of some finances and other things.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you study when you were there? What did you—what was your concentration?
Henry Lawson: Oh. My—my—my—my major would have been history.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Oh. Okay.
Henry Lawson: And, uh, and of course then I [unintelligible 02:46].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Mm-hmm. So that was the president of the chapter here, Mr. Boyd.
Henry Lawson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, uh, when you came back from school, did you join?
Henry Lawson: Uh, me? Well, I'd already been a member, and I just [crosstalk 03:02].
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you just continued—you continued to be active with the [crosstalk 03:05].
Henry Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. I've always been a member [unintelligible 03:06].
Oloye Adeyemon: I was told that there was a—a process, um, through which, uh, the—the, uh, membership cards were gotten to people where it was almost like a secretive way of, uh, of joining and gettin' your membership card. Can you explain that to me?
Henry Lawson: Well, the truth of the matter is, uh, uh, those questions were asked on applications and [unintelligible 03:34] schoolteachers. You know, "Are you a member in the—uh, are you a member NAACP?" So, uh, in order to—to become a member, if you could be [unintelligible 03:46], uh, jobs that which you can be defeated by bein' in a [unintelligible 03:52] or bein' a member. A lotta people had to join secretly because they didn't want it to be known that they were a member in order because of jobs, those kinda things.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I understood that cards were given to a person for a few people. I—I wouldn't—I wasn't quite clear, but it seemed like they were passin' the cards along in the event that somebody might be stopped or with the cards. I'm speaking specifically about the membership cards. There was some—
Henry Lawson: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: I wasn't quite sure. There—the interview I had at the time, the person just mentioned it, but I—I was wondering if you—you were aware of the process that had been developed to add secrecy to sendin' money or collectin' money or getting membership cards. I'm—I'm—I wasn't quite clear when it was mentioned.
Henry Lawson: Well, I'm not so sure about that bit. Well, I'm sure that it did happen. Uh, first of all, uh, my entire life, as I said, we were sharecropper, but I always worked for black folks, and I didn't have the fear that some people might have had.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you were more open.
Henry Lawson: Uh, so I was always open to whatever I did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever get threatened?
Henry Lawson: Not really. Um, those things have been said, but it never bothered me that much because, uh, they have never been able to do anything in terms of my livelihood because I lived out there with the McDonalds and those folks out there. They had their own land and have room for them. So, I, um, I—
Oloye Adeyemon: These were whites?
Henry Lawson: No, they were black.
Oloye Adeyemon: They—they—so you were living with black people.
Henry Lawson: Well, yeah. All my—all my life through my parents, uh, had been associated with black families.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 05:35].
Henry Lawson: [Crosstalk 05:35], yeah, their own—they had their own—[unintelligible 05:37] their own land. And—and as I said, the results of me livin' like that, we were so heavily populated, I never really got to know white people all that well.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. I understand. So, it wasn't—just wasn't that much of a factor. You know, you know—
Henry Lawson: Well, it could have been. I—I know that you, uh, could not have admitted that you were a member of the NAACP durin' those times if you were applyin' for a teachin' job.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Henry Lawson: One of those kinda—
Oloye Adeyemon: One of those kinda things.
Henry Lawson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, after those years, uh, who followed Mr. Boyd as the president of the NAACP, and what year was that?
Henry Lawson: Mm. I'm not exactly sure who followed him, uh, because, uh, after a few years went by, the blanch—the branch split up.
Oloye Adeyemon: Into?
Henry Lawson: Into two branches.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were those two?
Henry Lawson: Uh, the—the Clarendon branch is the one that—that initiated the original suit. Uh, Bill Flemin' outta Manning, uh, I think that he wanted to be the president, and he was defeated somehow. Then he started a Manning branch in Mannin' that still exists.
Oloye Adeyemon: And once the Manning branch was—came into existence, the other branch remained, the Clarendon County branch?
Henry Lawson: Yeah. It still exists. And the Mannin'—I mean the Clarendon branch—the Clarendon branch is always the recognizable branch that was involved with the suit. But—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Today are there two chapters?
Henry Lawson: Two chapters even today.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is one of them called the Manning branch?
Henry Lawson: The Manning branch and the Clarendon branch.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the Clarendon branch.
Henry Lawson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, Mr. Fleming continued to operate the Manning branch.
Henry Lawson: Well, he—he served as president for that branch until he passed away about three or four years ago.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Henry Lawson: He was the only president in [crosstalk 07:24].
Oloye Adeyemon: And what year about—around about did it start?
Henry Lawson: Uh, roughly in '56 [unintelligible 07:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: Did that create any problem in terms of unity?
Henry Lawson: Well, it—it dilute the strength somewhat.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: You couldn't tell right then, but even now, uh, the strength of NAACP in our area, uh, is not as strong as it has been.
Oloye Adeyemon: Strong.
Henry Lawson: Based on, uh, you see, it's a funny thing, but—but everybody kinda prays their own [unintelligible 07:57] even though we are doin' the same thing.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: But the Mannin' branch kinda separate, and they're [crosstalk 08:03].
Oloye Adeyemon: They have their own issues [crosstalk 08:04].
Henry Lawson: Yeah. And then we—see, what we needed, [unintelligible 08:07] some time ago, we had a—a what they call a lynchin'. It was a lynching.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Henry Lawson: A black kid a few years ago.
Oloye Adeyemon: How that [unintelligible 08:15]?
Henry Lawson: Five or six, six, seven, back over in the north area.
Oloye Adeyemon: North area of the county?
Henry Lawson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And, uh, this white boy [unintelligible 08:26] livin' next door [unintelligible 08:29]. And they were [unintelligible 08:32] just playin' together. And, uh, they didn't kill him, uh, but they'd strung him up and shoot at him you know? Uh, um, and, um, it was [unintelligible 08:42]. And people got some time. I think the two white people that—that did it. And the branches had kinda come together a little bit then somewhat, and that made things a little bit stronger. That's, uh, what's gonna be—look like a kinda [unintelligible 08:56].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And, uh, but, uh, I remember I started to run the up here NAACP again [unintelligible 09:07] went down just [unintelligible 09:09]. But my—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When did you first sorta take over the leadership of the Clarendon County, um, NAACP?
Henry Lawson: It was in, uh, '74, I believe it was.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Who was the immediate predecessor to you as [unintelligible 09:21]?
Henry Lawson: His name was Mr. Lawrence Rivers
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. And he'd been in—in that position for a while or—
Henry Lawson: For in there for a long time.
Oloye Adeyemon: He was in there for a long time.
Henry Lawson: Uh, that was kinda the reason, uh, that I ready [unintelligible 09:32]. What I had was several people came to me. Um, apparently, he really wasn't doin' it much, I mean, in terms of tryin' to promote things. Uh, a lot of people that would like to see—be replaced, but he's kinda hard to replace. And I got a blue fence behind me, uh, to defeat him.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: I tried to defeat him, and I did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, you said that was in '74?
Henry Lawson: Seventy-four.
Oloye Adeyemon: And how long did you remain president of the chapter?
Henry Lawson: I stayed probably for two, uh, two terms. Uh, two-year terms.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Have there been any issues that the NAACP has worked with, um, during the time that you had been in that relate directly to the schools?
Henry Lawson: Yes, it has. When—when, uh, after the suit, that's when all the new schools went up. I call it the Jimmy Barnes Buildin' 'cause Jimmy Barnes, he was in [unintelligible 10:30] at the time 'cause they all look quite alike in the same style.
Oloye Adeyemon: I didn't hear what you were sayin'.
Henry Lawson: Uh, after '54, when the, you know, when they, uh, when the suit was won and—and the—and that's when the schools started being built, that's when we started the sales tax. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: And you say the schools started being built, which schools are these?
Henry Lawson: Uh, the new schools that we, uh, that we have now, the one at Scott's Branch. Course it's been remodeled since then, but all the schools. I mean, the schools were built all over the state at that time. That's when they got the buses and everything.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And the—when the equalization [unintelligible 11:06] people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, and when that happened, uh, somewhere in the middle of that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: That's when they decided that we no longer need the schools. Um, when they built the private school over here and they all let the kids pull out, so they decided—they decided we no longer—there was no longer a need to, uh, to Summerton for high school, and they closed the door.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And when they did, that's when the NAACP [unintelligible 11:36] with that. We didn't have to get a suit. Right away the president—the president of—the state president, [unintelligible 11:43] name was McCollum.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And we met with him. It was a local chapter, and he came over several times, and we met with the, uh, with the school board and [unintelligible 11:54] office. And—and by the time we get ready to—to initiate a suit [unintelligible 12:01], uh, we should, uh, we had to do that. And that's when they decided to open the school back, so we made 'em reopen the school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Open—reopen Summerton.
Henry Lawson: Summerton Middle School. That's where the—I mean, the Summerton High School at the time, the one over here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Okay.
Henry Lawson: [Unintelligible 12:13]. That was the Summerton High School there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Henry Lawson: But they closed it when they built the private school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So, you were able to get it reopened.
Henry Lawson: Yeah. We got the—yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: The NAACP fought for the—
Henry Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was their reason for closing—whites closing the school?
Henry Lawson: They didn't want us there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though they were leaving, they still didn't want you there.
Henry Lawson: They didn't—they—they didn't wanna—they didn't wanna drive by it.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so—
Henry Lawson: See, now that at time, see, the—all the board people were white people back then.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Even though the white students had left, the board was still white.
Henry Lawson: They—the—that was still white. It's [crosstalk 12:42] whiter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: But the—the superintendent was white, and the board was white, and everybody was white. And that's when [unintelligible 12:50] in those days.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: But we had good political strength.
Oloye Adeyemon: Blacks did.
Henry Lawson: Blacks did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And, uh, [crosstalk 12:57]—
Oloye Adeyemon: When you said did have political strength, what happened to the strength?
Henry Lawson: We—well, it's been diluted somewhat now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Well, we just not doin' what we supposed to be doin'. That's all. And, uh, even though we fought and gained so much, uh, but we've got so complacent, in my opinion, that we about to lose some of what we've gained already.
Oloye Adeyemon: What—was—was the—were the city, uh, was the city, um, boundaries also changed to dilute the strength of all our folks?
Henry Lawson: You mean this city?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Was there a point when it was—West Summerton is predominantly black? Do—do—do the residents of West Summerton vote in town elections?
Henry Lawson: No. No, they don't. Like, definitely wasn't.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they vote at any point in the past in town elections?
Henry Lawson: They can't vote.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, they've never been able to.
Henry Lawson: No. You see, uh, this town over the years, I can remember, like, 1,500 people. Uh, and the town is so gerrymandered, uh, [unintelligible 14:04]. It runs down by the—by that school by here. It runs down that street. The school's in the county.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: That's what street?
Henry Lawson: That's, uh, Fourth Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Fourth Street.
Henry Lawson: You goin' down there with him?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: [Unintelligible 14:16].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: At Fourth Street it runs down this line there to this population. It cuts across, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: At what street?
Henry Lawson: It just cut across through, uh, North Street. It just—other words, it gerry—the town's so gerrymandered, it [unintelligible 14:33] circle around all the blacks and dilute the blacks and the whites and the [unintelligible 14:37].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, the blacks are considered to be in the county, the [crosstalk 14:41] residents.
Henry Lawson: [Crosstalk 14:41]. Uh, on that—on that side.
Oloye Adeyemon: On that side. Okay.
Henry Lawson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because if it were not for that, there'd be a much larger [crosstalk 14:47].
Henry Lawson: Well, it would be. You know, that's—we'll get that later. I guess you gonna about that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Sure.
Henry Lawson: But, um, and that's the reason that we could never get a black elected, because they tend to vote down racial lines.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now was the school board elected or appointed? How did they get their position?
Henry Lawson: Durin' those days, um, they were appointed. We had, um, uh, uh, uh, we got three school districts in this county. On the north end, where there be the only whites, they have all those [unintelligible 15:18].
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Henry Lawson: Uh, and district two—that's district three up there. District two is circlin' around the Manning River.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, and there it's been appointed. And district one have always been appointed until recently. And district two is still appointed.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Uh, when did it go to elections here in Summerton?
Henry Lawson: Mm. About eight years ago or so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And it's still not all elected. We got partially elected and partially appointed.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now which is it that caused the school board to become predominantly black? Was it the appointment of the black superintendent and the white board members leaving?
Henry Lawson: Yeah. The—
Oloye Adeyemon: Or was it because of elections?
Henry Lawson: Well, there was an election, uh, 'cause I [unintelligible 16:03]—what I was about to say was that I was boarding, uh, boarding strength [unintelligible 16:08]. Then we could elect anybody we wanted to, but we never elect one of us even though we about 67 percent black.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: But we never [crosstalk 16:16].
Oloye Adeyemon: Even without West—West Summerton.
Henry Lawson: No, I'm talkin' about county-wide now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, county-wide. Yeah, okay.
Henry Lawson: And, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: You said 60 or 70 percent of the county.
Henry Lawson: Well, it's about 60—it used to be—used to be about 67 percent black.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And almost that now. But what happened. Uh, we've been able to put pressure to delegation and, uh, and enact more through the—he was the, uh, uh, senator durin' those days and [crosstalk 16:42].
Oloye Adeyemon: From this area.
Henry Lawson: Yeah. Well, from up the county.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And—and, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is it Senator Bland now? John Bland?
Henry Lawson: Blanding now. But and Bill Davis was the party chairman. And, um, the [crosstalk 16:55].
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it the Democratic Party at that time?
Henry Lawson: They were both the Democratic Party chairman. And we had a school board of five. They were all white. That was Bart Smiles and Bobby Marlin, Charles Ploughton, and I can't remember the other two right now off the top of my head. So, we've been able to put the pressure on them to appoint a black based on how [unintelligible 17:22].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And that black person was John McDonald. Uh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that you think?
Henry Lawson: Eighty—around '80. Maybe not '80 but [unintelligible 17:36]. And so, then a group of us, includin' the NAACP and Concerned Citizen, uh, we met with them several times.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Um, to let them know that we—we were gonna have an all-black school district. We want some black superintendents and—and the other person that was as well.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: So, John was on the board at that time, so after we met and they had a board meeting, and they still decided they wasn't gonna appoint a black. So, then he was able to hold the—hold the—hold the—hold the meeting until he get back to—he—
Oloye Adeyemon: And this is, uh, appointin' a black superintendent.
Henry Lawson: Yes, black superintendent. So, we had chosen, uh, the best person that we feel that we feel that can help durin' that time as well as bein' [unintelligible 18:36], but I'm gonna tell you how that happened. He [crosstalk 18:38].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mr. Butler?
Henry Lawson: Mr. Butler.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Was the—the—the principal at the time. And we ask him would he accept the job if we—if we get it for him.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And he said he would. So, uh, they [unintelligible 18:52] a letter around, and they—they won't appoint him. So, the delegation came together. That was [unintelligible 18:58], and John Lamb was the secretary of the party at the time.
Oloye Adeyemon: John?
Henry Lawson: John Lamb. Secretary of the Democratic Party at the time.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was his name?
Henry Lawson: John Lamb. That was the [crosstalk 19:06].
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, John Lamb. Senator John Lamb. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Yes. Uh, Max Lawrence was, I mean, with the senator. Joe Corkle was the House of—in the House of Representatives.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Bill Davis was the party chairman.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And he really kept this thing together because he—
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, Representative Harmon was involved as well.
Henry Lawson: Well, he—no. He—not at that time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Um, and he—when they—so when they had a meetin', and he—and he told the board that they've—this thing's gettin' too hot, and they gonna have to go ahead and appoint this guy the superintendent. And before they'd do that, the—the whole board resigned.
Oloye Adeyemon: They did?
Henry Lawson: The whole board resigned. Like, seven [unintelligible 19:42].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Henry Lawson: And that's when I went on.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Um, I was such a—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 19:47] when you became, a board member?
Henry Lawson: Uh, 1980. And, um, I wasn't—that's when I went on [unintelligible 19:54]. Another [unintelligible 19:56] was named James Gibson. So, the—there was three blacks then and two whites.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was he related to Annie Gibson?
Henry Lawson: They could be some kin, but more like a husband or a [unintelligible 20:07] [crosstalk 20:09].
Oloye Adeyemon: That's right.
Henry Lawson: Um, and—and—and—and—and so—
[Pause 20:13 – 20:20]
Henry Lawson: - [unintelligible 20:21]. So, after they resigned, uh, one night they called me [unintelligible 20:28] and Ruben—
Oloye Adeyemon: Who?
Henry Lawson: I called him [unintelligible 20:33] John McDonald.
Oloye Adeyemon: What—what'd you—what'd you call him?
Henry Lawson: Uh, Big Bo.
Oloye Adeyemon: Big Bo?
Henry Lawson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: B-O-W?
Henry Lawson: [Unintelligible 20:38] B-O more like.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: He's—he's a very light-skinned fellow.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 20:42].
Henry Lawson: But he still is brown. He, uh, no one ever mention him too much. Uh, but, uh, he, uh, he one of the—one of the initial start of—well, he done too much after the thing got started.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And Ruben Clark, uh, Bill Flemin', and several others. They called a meetin' [unintelligible 21:01] the senators all came in with the delegation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And they told us, they, "Well," say, "we decided the whole board has resigned."
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Said, "But we gonna give y'all what you want."
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Said, "We [unintelligible 21:15]."
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Henry Lawson: And what they did was they wouldn't certify because he [unintelligible 21:20] didn't—didn't—didn't really need to be certified 'cause he wouldn't have got the job that way anyway. He's the first—first black superintendent in the state.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And what they did, they had all [unintelligible 21:32] with the State Department that they'd give him seven years to get certified.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: So—
Oloye Adeyemon: What does certified—certification involve? What did he have to do to get certified?
Henry Lawson: Well, he had to get superintendent certification.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: He had [unintelligible 21:46] certification [unintelligible 21:47].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And, uh, and he—and they said he would have to go back to school one day a week.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, without the district bein' impaired or anything.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Um, I mean, they—they set it all up.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Um, and of course and we went to his house that night, [unintelligible 22:06], told his brother he got the job.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Henry Lawson: And that's how he got it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now what I would like to, um, tie in is a couple of things. Uh, as I said, a lot of—lot of interviews have touched on much of this, but, um, one of the things that I really—uh, two things, I guess, in closing I'd like to look at with your help is, one, uh, there were things done by whites such as tryin' to close the school, leaving the school period, or—or—or pullin' the credit from peoples. There were various things done to kind of keep things the way they had been.
Uh, I've gotten the feeling from some of the whites that we've interviewed that, um, there are today people who were involved in some of those things, or their parents or grandparents were involved. And looking back at it, there are whites that recognize that because everybody was intertwined so much, if you pulled the credit of somebody who's—who you're makin' money off of in order to prevent them—[unintelligible 23:14] money.
Would you say that, uh, whites were affected negatively by the things they did to try to prevent blacks from going forward? And are there today—is there today a realization among many whites that it was a mistake?
Henry Lawson: Yeah, I can certainly say this town itself right here. Um, this was a very—this little town was about one of the booming towns of anywhere around. So, you had the best of both worlds. You had a U—two US highways that junction in the town of Summerton.
Oloye Adeyemon: Which one? Which two were those?
Henry Lawson: Highway—US Highway 301, 15—US Highway 15. They junctioned in the traffic light. Uh, [unintelligible 23:58].
Oloye Adeyemon: 95 hadn't been built yet.
Henry Lawson: No. Uh, 95 take—take place in the US Highway—
Oloye Adeyemon: 301 came all the way from New York and went down to Florida, didn't it?
Henry Lawson: Well, it comes from Baltimore goin' through [unintelligible 24:07]. But I believe it is. And 15 goes, uh, way up in the northern part of the [unintelligible 24:14]. But any rate, there wasn't much of this town you couldn't have gotten [unintelligible 24:18]. See, we had the—the four cotton gins and—and all the farmers, and we had, like, four or five cotton buyers that—on Railroad Avenue, and if you gin your cotton, you go [unintelligible 24:29] down to sell your cotton. And people used to be on the street just like this. And that was the results of what happened here [crosstalk 24:39]—
Oloye Adeyemon: And was—was it—were there also, uh, people comin' down here at some point as a resort? Was it also a place that people stopped on the way [crosstalk 24:47]?
Henry Lawson: Well, well, the lake here has always been. Now that's some lake [unintelligible 24:51].
Oloye Adeyemon: But it was through tourism, too, [background noise 24:53].
Henry Lawson: Tourist. This was a really, really tourist town.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Henry Lawson: We had mo—motels, and even before the motels, you had your bed and breakfasts when, like, when I was a kid.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: In the home, you know, and—and tourist—this has always been a tourist booming town.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, they closed down all the businesses as a result of—of the integration thing.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: That's why the town looks so, you know, look the way it is right now, like it ain't—like it ain't nothing to do with it.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did the integration cause the businesses to close down?
Henry Lawson: Retaliation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Retaliation.
Henry Lawson: Now I wouldn't [unintelligible 25:30] the fact that all white people in—in this town didn't think that way, but a lot of them couldn't show their true colors because the pressure that would be put on them from the rest of the ones that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Felt that way.
Henry Lawson: Felt that way.
Oloye Adeyemon: There were more [background noise 25:52].
Henry Lawson: And they would have—they would have been as hard on them—
Oloye Adeyemon: As on the blacks.
Henry Lawson: - as they was on us. And then they called 'em nigger lovers and all that kinda thing. So many things. I've had people, behind the back, they'll—they'll tell me certain things. "Uh, but please don't mention my name."
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, so as a result of that, everybody burdened. And even now today, uh, we got a few people that still [unintelligible 26:18] that way. That's why we're not movin' in the direction we need to go right now.
Oloye Adeyemon: As quickly as you could.
Henry Lawson: That's right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Mm-hmm. But lemme go back. Uh, it did—it did hurt everybody, right?
Henry Lawson: It hurt everybody.
Oloye Adeyemon: And there were whites then that didn't agree with that.
Henry Lawson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Not everyone agreed.
Henry Lawson: Not agreed, but they couldn't publicly show it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Today are there whites that are publicly wanting to heal that situation and come together? And—and what's the response that they get from whites that don't feel that way? Is it—is—is it—is it kind of getting resolved? Where are—where are people today?
Henry Lawson: If you talk to people today—well, if you talk to —
Oloye Adeyemon: Especially—particularly the whites.
Henry Lawson: If you talk with some of the—the young or middle—middle-age whites, um, um, and the—'cause I've had meetings, some people that's interested in knowing some of the history of the town. Uh, they wasn't aware of really what's goin' on for the most part. I mean, like, the kids.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: See, their parents keep it away from them. The only—the only thing they know was that somethin' wasn't right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And now, uh, there are some people now that—that really regret what's goin' on 'cause they—they really want to know what really went on, what—what really went on in those times. But, uh, people are ready now to come back together, in my opinion, because they seein' what they've lost.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And the results of what went on in those days.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. It's been slow for whites to get to this point. Have blacks—how have blacks felt about, you know, working with whites?
Henry Lawson: Uh, most people, in particular me, bury the hatchet. You can't—I—I don't look back in terms of that things that—all the things that happened to me. You know, um, like I said, you couldn't go here, and you couldn't go there, and all the lynchin' and all those things went on. Uh, that was real life back then, and not much you could do about it, but I'm tryin' to capitalize on the situation that has happened. By livin' so badly, we gonna make some good come out of it.
Oloye Adeyemon: What are some of the things that you feel can be done that'll make some good come out of it?
Henry Lawson: Well, in this town itself, uh, we plan to elect some—elect some people that think differently, that want to see progress.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is this a coalition of whites and blacks?
Henry Lawson: Well, it is now. Now we gonna have to change some people, uh, particularly the males. I ain't makin' no secret about that, uh, because before I came on council, we had one black, uh, that served for about eight years, I guess. But back durin' those times, uh, they need somebody, like a tokenism kinda thing. And—and I'm not talkin' about him. I'm just sayin' the way it was. And he was an educator, but he still had that slave mentality back in the back of his head through the way how he came up, the way how things was. He—he never really changed, and he—
Oloye Adeyemon: White? He's white?
Henry Lawson: He was black.
Oloye Adeyemon: He's black. [Crosstalk 29:33]—
Henry Lawson: The—the—the first black councilor we had. His name was James McFaden.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And when we used to come to council meetings, he didn't have to do that, but he would sit in another chair over there rather than sit with the group. And, uh, so they kept him 'til things blow up, and then they finally defeated him. And they went back all white in the meeting. So, I decided that it's time that somebody take a stand [unintelligible 30:01]. I tried to get to know him before [unintelligible 30:02] a young'un. Nobody seemed to be interested at the time. Now I went, and I did my homework. I—
That was about two years. I went out and started registerin' people in town that just didn't really care. And, you know, all of the—the [unintelligible 30:19] people out there that I wasn't about to get to, I would get somebody on the—on that level to take me around. And [unintelligible 30:25] you got five to six up there, and—and I—and I've been able to get about right now in the town, so we got about 150 more black registered voters than we have whites.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How many total registered voters are there?
Henry Lawson: Uh, about 600.
Oloye Adeyemon: How many people?
Henry Lawson: We got about 345 blacks registered and 200 and somethin' whites.
Oloye Adeyemon: How many residents are there of all ages in Summerton?
Henry Lawson: Mm, about 985.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, two-thirds or so are of voting age.
Henry Lawson: Yeah. They are. See, now when the town's so gerrymandered, we had a lotta people left, you know, over the years and moved to the lake area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: There used to be, like, 1,500 people livin' in this town.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: But they were majority whites. So, a lot of 'em built houses on the lake and moved to the lake.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: So then, uh, that's why the population has dwindled down to where we are right now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: So that's why we—we able to now—and I don't like to talk about black and white in particular, but the thing is, you got to do what you got to do because they have always voted down racial lines. The [unintelligible 31:41] council [unintelligible 31:42] right there now. If an issue comes up, like you have a issue came [unintelligible 31:46], and he was [unintelligible 31:48].
And I thought that it wasn't good for the town, you know, all this, uh, pork-barrel spendin' in the wrong direction, whether it's by a white man. And we'd talk about it, and everybody'd agree. Well, it came to the showdown, and we'd vote right down racial lines everything.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How many, uh, how—how many—how many people on council—how many of the council members are white and how many are black?
Henry Lawson: Well, now I was the first one. And as a result of my registering, doin' some of the things I do, I was able to, uh, the last election, we had two black ladies ran and a man. The man lost, but the two ladies won.
Oloye Adeyemon: Who are they?
Henry Lawson: Uh, Miss Alice [unintelligible 32:36].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And Olive Smith. That's [unintelligible 32:39].
Oloye Adeyemon: So there are three blacks.
Henry Lawson: We have three of us now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Who are the white council members?
Henry Lawson: Uh, uh, we got one, uh, Billy Hilton, um, Gil Bryson, and [unintelligible 32:52].
Oloye Adeyemon: I, uh, interviewed Mr. Hilton, and he, you know, seemed to feel that the time will come when people will really start talkin' about these things, [crosstalk 33:04] beginnin' to heal [unintelligible 33:06].
Henry Lawson: Uh, I hope he means that, uh, 'cause, uh, the thing that's been, and—and I don't make no bones about it, uh, that when I came on council, it was the same old status quo.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: What they'd been doin'. And I was [unintelligible 33:21] with it. But, mm, they can't get by too much because I—that's what I do.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: I know a—if I know anything about anything, I know a little bit about politics.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: See, the council's divided in committees. Uh, you got three people servin' on each committee. And they'll have those committee meetings and do actions in the committee meetin's. And—and really when—when you get to the council, a large—a lot of cases, the meetin's already happened.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Henry Lawson: But I've been able to stop some of that by myself.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: You know, and, uh, but then, uh, it didn't bother them for doin' that because usually the ones that's affected by it is sittin' [unintelligible 34:02].
Oloye Adeyemon: What happens if there's a tie vote?
Henry Lawson: Well, the mayor—well, uh, he—now the mayor, uh, uh, can all—I mean, with the—with the new [unintelligible 34:13], everybody can vote. See, one time the mayor vote in—in—you know, it—it's the tie vote, but now he can vote on every issue. Uh, but on that particular [unintelligible 34:24], I thought he was with us, and he said he was, so he didn't have to vote because one of—one of my people [unintelligible 34:32]. And Alice and I voted for what we were talkin' about [unintelligible 34:38] business, and the other vote the other way, so he didn't vote at all on that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What are some of the positive things that are occurrin' now in Summerton?
Henry Lawson: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: And how do you think—not just in terms of racial, but just in terms of, um, development, you know, tryin' to redevelop the city.
Henry Lawson: Well, uh, what's gonna happen with or without me. I think the people are all gettin' ready to go. It's like, uh, I just told, the town's all gerrymandered. See, everyone in West Summerton out there, they feel like they in another world. They don't have police protection. They don't have anything. The sheriff department have to come all the way from across the county to take care of their problems that are happenin' on West Summerton [unintelligible 35:25] or whatever.
Plus we're losing money hand over fist. We got that nursin' home out there that pays about 40,000 all year in taxes, but they keepin' it out because of the population. It feels like a takeover [unintelligible 35:39]. We don't wanna take over. We just want justice, um, and I've already initiated a legislation to annex the city for another 600 houses to include the nursin' home [unintelligible 35:50] up to about 1,500 people.
Oloye Adeyemon: So that'll—that'll—
Henry Lawson: I've gotta—I've gotta—I've gotta—gotta first [unintelligible 35:56] one of those registered.
Oloye Adeyemon: That almost doubles the population of the town.
Henry Lawson: It almost will. Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: And double the taxes.
Henry Lawson: It will.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: So now it—it—and—and then what they were tryin' to tell me that it gonna cost the town money, and we gonna spend two million dollars that we've got a grant for [unintelligible 36:14], and we gonna have to match it 'cause we gotta upgrade the sewer system on the west side anyway. But that's gonna start with these [unintelligible 36:21] now. We would—we'd have had it ready for a year now, and we've just gotta get everything in place [unintelligible 36:26] months.
So—so now and I can understand if we had to make preparations from the town to go out there. Well, we gonna spend the money anyway, and they gonna tell me it gonna cost the town money for us to go out there. And I've done my research, and we gonna pick up about $90,000 just on a roughage.
And it can't cost us nothin' 'cause the only thing—it can't be nothin' but plus to go out there because, uh, people have their personal property out there. Lotsa people have, uh, you know, boats and cars and all their personal stuff. So that's the, uh, revenue will come from real estate. Uh, plus they're bringin' the nursin' home, another $40,000. And the—they don't wanna go there, so I—after we got a [unintelligible 37:12], it look like now we ain't got the votes, so, um, we gonna hold off on it now until we got a mayoral election.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And come next April, it's goin' out there. Oh, I don't think we need to start progress on a racial tone, and that's what it's all about.
Oloye Adeyemon: So there's going to be, uh, commemorations around the country, uh, marking the 50th anniversary of Brown v. Board. Do you think Summerton as a community, white and black, uh, would be able to come together to, uh, commemorate that?
Henry Lawson: Well, we gonna have enough right now. We got enough people with that kind of thinkin' right now, uh, that gonna make it happen. And when it did happen, then everybody gonna see then the benefits it's gonna bring to us in terms of now we gonna have a little bit of flack but not enough to stop us. But our thing has been for so long that we have, uh, not been able to get enough white people to join us in terms of doin' the right thing and bringin' this community where it should be.
Oloye Adeyemon: How does the state rep from this area, the state senator, feel about these things?
Henry Lawson: Well, the representative lives in this town. He's with him 100 percent. The senator [unintelligible 38:38].
Oloye Adeyemon: And his name is?
Henry Lawson: Ed Masarlin.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And then John [unintelligible 38:44].
Oloye Adeyemon: John Land?
Henry Lawson: Yeah. He's—
Oloye Adeyemon: He's the senator?
Henry Lawson: He's the senator [crosstalk 38:48].
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you have, uh, good support from the state representative and the state senator?
Henry Lawson: Oh, yeah. That wouldn't be a problem.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Henry Lawson: In the other words, see, we got the best of both worlds. This—this town is national history. We got history in this town that a lot of people love to have, you know?
Oloye Adeyemon: Such as?
Henry Lawson: Well, the—the—the national history that the—that this suit brought that, uh, initiated in the town of Summerton [crosstalk 39:09]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Doesn't it have other history as well?
Henry Lawson: Well, that's the biggest thing we got.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Um, but what they are advertisin' is the [unintelligible 39:16] mill right here that used to grindin' corn.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: But that, you know, what we really need to do is to generate the interest here and, uh, Councilman Cliven, Senator Harlens, uh, I met with them way back. Um, Senator—
Oloye Adeyemon: Senators—
Henry Lawson: Senator Harlens of state [unintelligible 39:36].
Oloye Adeyemon: And the other person is?
Henry Lawson: And I'll—I'll call him Cliven, Jim Cliven. He's—he's from the [unintelligible 39:41].
Oloye Adeyemon: You've met with him.
Henry Lawson: Yeah. Well, I've met—well, I've met with him on occasion.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And they had promised that there's monies out there can be gotten, that we could do somethin' with that [unintelligible 39:51]. We talkin' about that [unintelligible 39:52] sometimes. But and what we—what I would love to see happen to make this the historical Summerton. Put the markers up on the side of town. They'll come right down through.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And put the markers up on this side. But you gonna have to have something out here to generate the interest. You [unintelligible 40:07] bring 'em here to talk about the historical Summerton, and nobody'll know we exist or what we're all about.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: So we gonna have to capitalize on some of these things that we're talkin' about in terms of, uh, these big celebrations and, if necessary, once they—if we get the celebration goin', bring in some renowned person like Oprah Winfrey, somebody to come in and be the, uh, you know, the—the—the—the Grand Marshal in a town [unintelligible 40:31]. I have people come out to my place all the time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And a lotta times they got their cars worked on, and—mostly white people. And then they'll stay overnight in [unintelligible 40:39] downtown, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And then when I start talkin' to 'em, particularly when that school was abandoned over there, they said, "What happened to that buildin' over there?"
Oloye Adeyemon: You're talking about Summerton High?
Henry Lawson: Yeah, when the—the [unintelligible 40:48].
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 40:49].
Henry Lawson: [Crosstalk 40:49]. There were boards up on the window. And then I started tellin' 'em about the [unintelligible 40:53]. Most people don't even know, uh, anything ever what happened in this town for the most part.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How many sites exist today that you would say would help to tell the story where if a person were to come here, these would be sites they could be shown—shown still stand?
Henry Lawson: Well, that's gonna be the landmark over there, I guess.
Oloye Adeyemon: Summerton? Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: That—that school over there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: 'Cause it was involved in the suit.
Oloye Adeyemon: And Liberty Hill.
Henry Lawson: And Liberty Hill Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: As a historical monument.
Henry Lawson: Liberty Hill Church as a historical monument.
Oloye Adeyemon: It—it—it's where the meetings first occurred.
Henry Lawson: Yeah, and we got another church that has been the Pearsons' church, Mount Zion AME Church. That's kinda [crosstalk 41:25].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. There were meetings there, too?
Henry Lawson: There had meetings there. They got the historical marker now as well at Mount Zion Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And course the old Scott's Branch School.
Oloye Adeyemon: There's—
Henry Lawson: Uh, there—there—there—there [crosstalk 41:34].
Oloye Adeyemon: There's a new school on the spot. [Crosstalk 41:35] there's a marker there.
Henry Lawson: They—they—they renovated somewhat, but the—the old school, they—other words—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is there a marker at Scott's Branch?
Henry Lawson: Yeah, it's a marker there. And that old school, when I went there, it was a—a warehouse-type buildin'.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Ten rooms. Uh, all, um, white, uh, boards [unintelligible 41:52].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, just [unintelligible 41:55] room like this. And then when they built the new school, uh, they were so mad. So, they built the new school behind the old school and leave the—the old eyesore school at the front and built the new school behind that and didn't tear it down at first.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: But over the years, uh, it still sits there, but they renovated it and bring it all to [crosstalk 42:16], you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. I understand. So, there are some positive signs of developments.
Henry Lawson: There are plenty. There are plenty positive signs of development in this town.
Oloye Adeyemon: In this town. And you feel that the, uh, outcome of the court case was positive?
Henry Lawson: Very positive. It just that we had, uh, we had not been able to—to capitalize like some places in Alabama and some other places that—that were well talked about and that people, you know, know about and all. You see, the—the thing [unintelligible 42:45] here. Uh, there was so much tension between the races.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, they were mad because it happened, and they didn't—and they didn't want it happening. So, and that's the reason why that Summerton hasn't gotten the kinda publicity in the first place we should have gotten, because the politics took it outta the small town. They didn't want it here, and that's why they blow it up into a [unintelligible 43:09] or whatever you call it, west or whatever. And the people in Kansas get all the Brown v. whatever, 'cause they—the politics took it outta Summerton.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: They didn't want it here. And that's why we are very vaguely mentioned, because of the fact that the people didn't want it here. And—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. A lotta people have said they appreciated these interviews that are bein' done [crosstalk 43:30].
Henry Lawson: They—they are. We have, uh, uh, it's a lotta people in this town, [unintelligible 43:33], white and black. Uh, they not all what people say they are. I know a few good white people in this town, a few, you know. And then—and the [unintelligible 43:42] good black [unintelligible 43:44]. A lotta blacks I don't wanna associate with, either, but we got some diehards here and, uh, that just decided that they're not gonna let anything happen here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And—and that's the reason why we have not been able to get the kinda help down there that we deserve, because ain't nobody gonna come into a situation where, you know, they know it's already flammable.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh or come in and stir it into somethin' that's already messy.
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, I'm certainly happy that you're workin' to bring about reconciliation.
Henry Lawson: Well, that's one of my goals before I go to Heaven, I'll tell you, 'cause I have worked so hard in this community all my life. It's not many things [unintelligible 45:21] in this county, good or bad, that I wasn't a part of and, uh, and nothin' with [unintelligible 44:26]. I've always been there. Uh, uh, and of course, uh, for support.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: And—and then—and I know the—I—I know the county upside down, uh, from my involvement, what we have done. But we haven't done near as much as what we—we should have done based on some of the leadership we had.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: You see, now just like I told you, [unintelligible 44:48], and we been able to muster a [unintelligible 44:54] county-wide on this thing. Uh, I ran for Director of Public Works back in, uh, 1982. And we got what you call a little black—a little caucus. And the caucus that we have in this county, uh, they include the white and the blacks in it. And I always thought we needed a caucus for what we need, and we'd bring you in to tell you what some of the things we want you to do. Not caucus with us.
See, we taught them all we know, and [unintelligible 45:24] caucus [unintelligible 45:25] one another. And I always did—and I always, you know, used to [unintelligible 45:29]. And even when I ran, uh, we had people in this county, and I don't wanna put 'em on the [unintelligible 45:36], [laughter] and I know what I'm sayin'.
Uh, they'll capitalize on every election, puttin' monies in their pockets that people give them to help defeat somebody else. And even when the caucus wasn't with me, and I ran against one of the strongest politicians in this county, incumbent, [unintelligible 45:56] Harding. And we went to the runoff. I led the ticket, and the runoff, he—he beat me by 192 votes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Out of how many?
Henry Lawson: Uh, [crosstalk 46:05]?
Oloye Adeyemon: Out of a total of how many?
Henry Lawson: Uh, uh, we got, uh, we got 32,000 people in the county, and, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: It was only 192.
Henry Lawson: And we voted, uh, about 15,000 people, and I lost—I lost by 192 votes. And my own caucus didn't voted for me.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.
Henry Lawson: They took the money and run. [Laughter] So as a, uh, as a result of that, we should, you know, with 67 percent, and you can't let your own, there's somethin' wrong.
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, thank you so much for your time.
Henry Lawson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I really appreciate it, and I think that some of the information that you've given has not been given by anyone else, and it's gonna fill in the missing spots.
Henry Lawson: Yeah. I was tryin' not to duplicate 'cause I know I done heard the story too many times. And I, you know, and Jay got a lot of notes that he really—that—that he got a notes, uh, to his daddy.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: [Crosstalk 46:54]?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Henry Lawson: Uh, but all those things I know about, but I've been tryin' not to duplicate because [unintelligible 46:59] all the things that you've already heard about.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much.
Description
This interview presents the history of an African American politician and civil rights activist in Summerton, South Carolina. Lawson discusses most aspects of his life in Summerton during the 1940s and 1950s to present day (2001) and talks about both the Levi Pearson v. County Board of Education and Briggs v. Elliott court cases. He discusses the politics of segregation in Summerton, including the White Citizens’ Council and the local NAACP chapter.
Credit
NPS
Date Created
07/16/2001
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