Oral History Interview with Judith Capurso and Nancy Suggs

Transcript

Transcript

[Pause 00:00 – 00:10] Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection, Washington DC school segregation/desegregation interviews. Interviewee Mrs. Nancy Suggs, director of the Charles Sumner School Museum and Archives. And Mrs. Judy Capurso, Sumner School Museum and Archives archivist. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted at the Charles Sumner School Museum and Archives in Washington, DC on August 15th, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site oral history project. Mrs. Suggs, what is your full name? Nancy Suggs: My name is Nancy Turner Suggs. Oloye Adeyemon: And your full name, Mrs. Capurso? Judith Capurso: Judith Marian Capurso. Oloye Adeyemon: Marian? Judith Capurso: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell Marian? Judith Capurso: M-A-R-I-A-N. Oloye Adeyemon: And how to you spell Capurso? Judith Capurso: C-A-P-U-R-S-O. Oloye Adeyemon: And we appreciate you takin’ the time, um, work schedules, to, uh, talk with us about, uh, the history of the, uh, Washington, DC school district. Uh, beginning with the, uh, establishment of Washington, uh, there was, uh—there were some African Americans living here and there were some opportunities for education. Talk about them. Judith Capurso: Sure. The establishment of public education, uh, was officially initiated in the school charter—in the charter, city charter, uh, around 1804. It was in 1804 and didn’t really start to get off the ground ’til 1805. Um, but the public school system, it-it didn’t have a tremendous amount of respect at that time. And, uh, it was viewed as something for poor students. And most people who had— Oloye Adeyemon: Are you saying black and white? Judith Capurso: Uh, correct. Uh, but the—of course because of the way DC was situated, there was always segregation in DC. So the-the beginnings of the schools were actually for white schools for public education. And poor white students. Uh, any-anyone who had any kind of income actually had to pay to go to public school. A very nominal fee and then they’d get two extra subjects beyond reading, writing, and ’rithmatic. Uh, schools for the black population, uh, didn’t really start in any, um, substantial way until 1862, uh, once emancipation began in DC. [Crosstalk 03:10]. Oloye Adeyemon: We’re talking about public education? Judith Capurso: That’s right. Public education. Oloye Adeyemon: Were there-were there-were there any, uh, private schools for blacks? Judith Capurso: There were a lot of private, uh, education opportunities for-for blacks in DC. They were held in churches, uh, halls, uh, rooms that could be found. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. Just any location [crosstalk 03:29]? Judith Capurso: Any-any empty location during the day that could be found, um, was utilized. And of course the funding was private sources. Uh, there were a lot of benevolent organizations in the North, um, that actually, uh, were a great funding source for private black education in DC for many years. Before appropriations really, uh, kicked in, um, in a substantial way in order to build schools and hire teachers. And until a board of trustees was actually put in place specifically for black education in DC. And, um, that board of trustees was actually separate from the white board of trustees and was appointed by the Department of Interior. So it actually had a-a completely different, um, umbrella organization in terms of who they answered to and the like. Oloye Adeyemon: Who did the other schools answer to? Judith Capurso: They answered to the commissioners of the [crosstalk 04:27]. Oloye Adeyemon: And the commissioners were of the District of Columbia? Judith Capurso: Correct. Oloye Adeyemon: And they were commissioners for more than just education? Judith Capurso: Correct. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. They served in somewhat of the role that you would expect a county commissioner to. Judith Capurso: Uh, something similar to that, along those lines. Uh, again though, the whole appropriations really were-were under the arm of the Congress. And, uh, there was special committees set up to-to deal with those appropriations and, uh, and-and that was the political, uh, reality of the time. Oloye Adeyemon: I think it’s really important that we keep-keep—remain focused on the fact that, uh, there is not a state government here so it’s— Judith Capurso: Correct. Oloye Adeyemon: - [unintelligible 05:04]. Judith Capurso: It’s a very unique arrangement. And of course even to this day the-the lack of, uh, input of-of the constituency is still a problem when it comes to, uh, governing and controlling, uh, you know the various institutions in the, uh public sector. Oloye Adeyemon: What were the earliest schools that were [unintelligible 05:23]? Judith Capurso: Um, well Sumner School was actually one of the earliest schools. This school was, uh, built and dedicated in 1872. But one of the early high schools was—is-is very well known, um, in history as the M Street School. And that actually graduated the first, uh, black high school. Uh, that eventually, uh, evolved— Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that? [Crosstalk 05:47] Judith Capurso: In 1877 was the first high school graduation. Which was actually held here in Sumner in our great hall. Oloye Adeyemon: Even though the school was elsewhere. Judith Capurso: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: Where-where was that school located? Can you tell us? Judith Capurso: Um, the M Street School was, um, M and, um, I’m tryin’ to think now whether it was— Oloye Adeyemon: It was called the M Street School because it was on M Street? Judith Capurso: It was on M Street, that’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: We can document that. We can footnote that later. Judith Capurso: Okay. Oloye Adeyemon: But that was the first high school graduating class. The graduation was held in Sumner. Sumner did not go all the way through high school at that time? Judith Capurso: No. Sumner at that time was really what we would call an elementary school. Uh, the word elementary school is actually a later, uh, is a later evolution of-of what in the early 1800s through the early 1900s, uh, was really termed primary and grade school. And that would refer to grades one through four and then four through eight. So that’s what was housed in Sumner initially, up through eighth grade. Oloye Adeyemon: Did I hear you say that Sumner was the first or one of the first high schools? Judith Capurso: Sumner-Sumner was one of the first, uh, schools funded with, uh public education monies. Really I think Stevens School, elementary school, which is still standing and still operating, uh, predates Sumner. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Judith Capurso: And that was one of the-the-the most substantial, one of the more substantial, schools that was built specifically for black education. Sumner was, uh, because it had a world-renowned architect and because it also housed the board the trustees administrative offices here, was much more of a landmark, uh, for education. Oloye Adeyemon: Who was that world-renowned architect? Judith Capurso: Adolf Cluss. Oloye Adeyemon: And the, uh, Stevens School, where was it located? Judith Capurso: Stevens School is right down the street here from Sumner. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Uh, Mrs. Suggs, I’d like for you to fill in a little bit more of the history of Sumner School and then talk about how it became a historic site and museum. Nancy Suggs: When Sumner opened in-in 1872, it really was a landmark building. It was, uh, beautifully designed by a-a very well-known architect who really, um, put his stamp on the city. At that time, all parts of the city had a building designed by him. Um, it-it housed the board of trustees. Uh, it was the most modern school building standing at that time. Oloye Adeyemon: So originally it was not built for black students? Nancy Suggs: It-it—oh yes, it was. But it was— Oloye Adeyemon: You said it was housing— Nancy Suggs: It housed the board of trustees of-of the— Oloye Adeyemon: As well. Nancy Suggs: - of the-of the colored schools of Washington and Georgetown. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Nancy Suggs: So it was, uh, it was really something special right from the very beginning. Over time it was—it continued to be used as an elementary school. And during the war years, the World War Two years, um, we had a dental clinic downstairs in the building. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: It was still operating as a school? Nancy Suggs: It was still operating as a school. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: When did-when did it close as a school? Nancy Suggs: It closed as a school by the DC public schools in 1972. Uh, there wasn’t a real downtown population to fill the building. The building was in disrepair. Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause we’re at 17th. Nancy Suggs: And M. Which is really downtown. Um, I think the credit union operated out of here for a while. Uh, and then— Oloye Adeyemon: Which credit union was that? Nancy Suggs: Uh, the DC, uh, Teachers Federal Credit Union/ Oloye Adeyemon: Teachers. After it was closed as a school. Nancy Suggs: Right. And then we had to—we rented the building to a private school. So a private school, uh, rented this building for several years. Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 09:42] black private-private school? Nancy Suggs: Not necessarily. It was just a private school. Oloye Adeyemon: Just a-just a— Nancy Suggs: And it was open to anyone. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So this was during the later years, like after 1972. Nancy Suggs: You would been from-from ’73 to about— Judith Capurso: I think it finally closed in ’74 or ’75. Nancy Suggs: And then the building was closed altogether. And it was decided, uh, this property was very valuable because it was downtown— Oloye Adeyemon: And the architecture. Nancy Suggs: - uh, the metro was being built. Uh, nobody was really concerned about the architecture. It was the location, location, location. Oloye Adeyemon: That was important as well. But it was important. The archi-architecture. Nancy Suggs: Oh, absolutely. But at that time— Judith Capurso: Right. Right. Sure. Those were the ’80s when there was a major real estate boom in DC. So this piece of property, regardless of the architecture— Oloye Adeyemon: Architecture. Judith Capurso: - was valuable just on a purely monetary— Nancy Suggs: The National Geographic Society’s next door to us. The B’nai B’rith building. Uh, this area of town is like Wall Street, uh, in a way, in New York. So there was—decided that this was very valuable property and that it could bring a lot of money into the DC coffers if it was sold. Because there was a parcel next door that another school stood on— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nancy Suggs: - and so there was this double space. And, um— Judith Capurso: And that school also was closed. Nancy Suggs: Right. That-that— Oloye Adeyemon: Which school was that? Nancy Suggs: That was called [unintelligible 11:02]. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. And what’s the history of them? Nancy Suggs: Um, Magruder I think was opened ahead of Sumner. Uh— Judith Capurso: Yeah. Magruder was, uh, I think opened a year or two earlier than Sumner. It was a very modest design, uh, sort of plain brick box school, uh, that was also an elementary school. Oloye Adeyemon: And what was the population? Judith Capurso: And Magruder was a white school. Nancy Suggs: Well, it’s the white school. Judith Capurso: So they were side by side, these-these two schools. Nancy Suggs: And that is something very unique, uh, for what we call southern school systems, to have a black school and a white school right next door to one another. And that tells you about the demographics of Washington. Uh, the neighborhoods for the most part were not segregated. Neighborhoods were not. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So streets might’ve been, but not neighborhoods. Nancy Suggs: It-it was—even in the ’40s and the early ’50s when I was growing up, uh, and when I started school in a-in a segregated school system, we lived in a neighborhood where there were a mix of people. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Did, um, Magruder’s—how do you spell that? Nancy Suggs: Magruder. Magruder. Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell it? Nancy Suggs: M-A-G-R-U-D-E-R. Oloye Adeyemon: Did it cover the same grades as Sumner? It did not have a high school either? Judith Capurso: That’s correct. That was—it was also an elementary school. And you’ll— Oloye Adeyemon: It went to? Judith Capurso: - you’ll see that throughout, uh, DC. Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 12:27]. Judith Capurso: No. Usually eighth grade— Oloye Adeyemon: Through eighth grade. Judith Capurso: - was considered. A-a lot of, uh, children in—of course in the early part of the century only went through eighth grade. Oloye Adeyemon: Period. Judith Capurso: A high school, uh, uh, education was considered a bit of a luxury in some ways whereas a college education became regarded. Oloye Adeyemon: So you were saying that, uh, during this period, uh, both schools had been closed. Nancy Suggs: That’s correct. Oloye Adeyemon: Durin’—we’re talking the ’70s now. Nancy Suggs: Right. And, um, the mayor and the city council saw dollar signs flashing all around them. Uh, in the meantime there was a man who, uh, grew up in Washington, attended public schools, uh, graduated from DC Teachers College, and was employed by the public schools. His name was Richard Hurlbut. Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell his last name? Nancy Suggs: H-U-R-L-B-U-T. And in the research that we have done over the past two or three years about Mr. Hurlbut, we found that he really had a vision a long time before this building ever became available, uh, to have a building of historic significance to house an archives of the public school, history of the public schools. And to serve as a museum of education and a conference center. And we know this because from all the years that the worked in the public school, he squirreled away important papers and documents and yearbooks and stored. He also, uh, got the mayor interested in setting up a historical review board that would help to designate DC buildings as landmark historical buildings for the city. This is outside of the National Trust designation. And when this building became available and was scheduled to be torn down, he got together a group of people in the neighborhood, the Geographic Society, the Victorian Society, B’nai B’rith, all kinds of neighborhood councils, to save this building and make it into the kind of place that he had this vision for. Oloye Adeyemon: How difficult was it for him to do? Nancy Suggs: It was very difficult. The wrecking ball was literally outside of the door at the corner of 17th and M. And he stood on the top floor of the building and refused to move. He said, “If you’re gonna knock it down, you’re gonna knock it down with me in it.” He was able to get a-a court order and to really bring everybody around to his way of thinking. The biggest thing that he had going for him was that he managed to-to find a developer who had done historic restorations in Boston and who was interested in building an office building on our property where Magruder was. And was interested as part of his lease agreement in restoring this building and maintaining it for the duration of his land lease. So the city was in a win-win situation. They could save a historic property that had a great deal of significance to African American residents— Oloye Adeyemon: And [unintelligible 16:08]. Nancy Suggs: - they could still get an income from the land. And they’d get all this prestige of having this wonderfully restored building that could be used for the, uh, city. For the-for the constituents to have meetings, forums, seminars, and workshops. Oloye Adeyemon: So that led to the restoration of the [crosstalk 16:30]. Nancy Suggs: Led to the restoration. Oloye Adeyemon: Now— Nancy Suggs: Which cost the city nothing. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nancy Suggs: That’s a big, important point. Oloye Adeyemon: So once it’s restored, what were the next steps that occurred prior to becoming the museum? Nancy Suggs: Um, again Mr. Hurlbut’s vision. Uh, he pulled together, uh, furnishings and antiques from different places, got all of his collections out of, uh, papers and memorabilia that he had saved over the years. And, uh, set up shop here. The-the school board and the-the mayor particularly because they were so, uh, pleased at what occurred, really gave him free rein. And he then, uh, opened up the museum and the archives. And, um, had a vision for an art museum, to have, uh, artwork displayed here. And now that’s what it’s used for. We have children from our schools come in on field trips. They learn the history of the building, they get to see the exhibits, and they get to do an art project that has something to do with the exhibits they’ve seen. Oloye Adeyemon: At what point did there become a focus on saving, uh, memorabilia about the school districts? Nancy Suggs: We believe that Mr. Hurlbut did this from day one. Oloye Adeyemon: From the beginning. So— Nancy Suggs: He came into the school system about 1965. Oloye Adeyemon: So there are a number of different types of exhibits, but one of the primary, uh, themes is-is the history of the schools in DC. Nancy Suggs: He also got in touch with alumni associations that were very active. And interested them in, uh, collecting more memorability and then giving them a place to house it. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, this is a National Historic Site. Nancy Suggs: From the National Trust. We’re on the National Trust register. Oloye Adeyemon: And are you a national landmark? Nancy Suggs: We’re— Judith Capurso: I believe it—yes. Nancy Suggs: We’re national landmark. We are also a designated landmark by the city. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And as a result of that, you’ve done things with the Park Service. Nancy Suggs: The-the park service has, uh, had a number of, uh, seminars and workshops here. Oloye Adeyemon: Was one of ’em concerning Brown versus Board? Nancy Suggs: Uh. Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 18:48]. Nancy Suggs: You know, the secretary of education was here to speak at, um, the anniversary of Brown versus Board. Um. Oloye Adeyemon: Was that the 25th anniversary? Nancy Suggs: Uh, it was about two years ago. Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 19:03]. Nancy Suggs: So it was, uh [crosstalk 19:06]. Oloye Adeyemon: But then he-he came to speak about— Nancy Suggs: He came— Oloye Adeyemon: - that here because of the [unintelligible 19:11] this building has. Nancy Suggs: This building had for the city. Oloye Adeyemon: To the city in terms of education. Nancy Suggs: Yeah. Judith Capurso: We also had someone from the National Park Service, um, do, uh, some research in order to—you know, along the lines of this theme in order to, um, identify the participation of various schools in some of the landmark cases. That of course you know Brown versus Board of Education is really not just one case. It’s really several cases a-across the country. They just used the Brown as the, you know, as the-as the title of the case. But, uh, they wanted to, uh, research, uh, various events that had happened. Uh, for instance Bolling versus Sharpe and some cases in which— Oloye Adeyemon: This is the DC part of the Brown versus Board [crosstalk 19:59]. Judith Capurso: Which is the—right. And, uh, and there were some cases actually, uh, going back even in to the 1800s where people tried to, um, get their children inte-integrated into the school system. Um, most of the time it was just that there’s this school, you know, on the corner and-and this of course supports what Ms. Suggs was saying about neighbors-neighbors, uh, neighborhoods being integrated and schools weren’t. Because sometimes there was a school, uh, that was right on your corner and yet your child had to go, you know, 8 or 10 blocks, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Sure. Judith Capurso: Which in those days were—was considered a bit of a distance. And people wanted to have their kids go into their neighborhood schools. Oloye Adeyemon: Sure. I’d like to take some time before we talk more about the work that Sumner’s doing and the ways in which stories such as the one you’re discussing can be commemorated, uh, through exhibits, through educational [unintelligible 20:55]. But first I’d like to go back because, uh, in the interviews that we’ve conducted in DC, it seems that even people here in DC are not clear on the changes and things that occurred in structuring of the district, black school district, and how they were [unintelligible 21:18]. Can you give us an overview going back to the beginning again and talking about, uh, how it was set up and how you see funding and bring us up to date? What’s changed? Judith Capurso: Well, it would-it would be a little lengthy to-to go into all of the specifics. But in a general way, um, of course like I said before education for African American children didn’t really get started until emancipation in the 1860s. And then the appropriation funding, uh, which at first was based on taxed from property, was then switched. Because there weren’t enough, uh, property owners in the black population to generate enough revenue. So then what they did is they decided well, if we’re going to have an-an equal, separate but equal, uh, system—and again this came down through the Congress. Uh, they said well, we’ll have to change the-the revenue source. So the revenue source then became, uh, the black schools in proportion to the population will get the-the same percentage of funding. And then there were substantial funds. Again, it was never equal. I mean in the sense that the-the-the funding and the kinds of schools that were built, uh, you know aside from Sumner, were never really quite equal. Uh, or the monies spent per pupil. And that’s been well documented through the years. Uh, one of the efforts that, uh, that-that they did make was, again, starting out with a separate board of trustees just for the colored schools. And a separate board of trustees for the white schools. At one time there was a- Oloye Adeyemon: But these were not separate districts. These were divisions within a district? Judith Capurso: These were each—in other words each of the district itself was divided into school divisions. And the black schools were considered, uh, a certain division. But those schools would be scattered throughout the city. All right? So they weren’t—there weren’t, uh, sections. Uh, again, schools evolved as the population grew. Oloye Adeyemon: So was there a single division for, you know, white schools— Judith Capurso: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - or a single division? In the beginning. Judith Capurso: Yes. Yes. And those divisions changed as the population changed. In other words— Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 23:33]. Judith Capurso: - there might’ve been three divisions in the beginning and then eventually that expanded. Uh, in the-in the early days, the early 1860s, I think it was division seven and eight were strictly black schools. Oloye Adeyemon: Out of a total of how many? Judith Capurso: Out of a total of eight. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Judith Capurso: They were always at-at the later—the higher numbers were always the black schools. And as the number of black schools increased, the number of divisions increased as well. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Now, was this still being administered, uh, through commissioners [unintelligible 24:03]? Judith Capurso: In those early days when there was a black board of trustees, that was governed by the board of interior. Not the commissioners. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. You did say that. But white schools were [crosstalk 24:!5]. Judith Capurso: White schools were governed by the commissioners. Oloye Adeyemon: How long did the interior department do that? Judith Capurso: Well, there was a-there was a move to change that. I think it came in the 1870s or ’80s. And there was such an outcry from the local community that the president, Andrew Johnson, struck down the bill and vetoed the bill that would make a change. So that the two schools districts, the school—two boards, would actually merge. What they wanted was to just have some black representation on one single board of trustees. Uh, there was such an outcry from the community, again, like I said— Oloye Adeyemon: From the white community? Judith Capurso: From the black community. Oloye Adeyemon: From the black community. Judith Capurso: They felt that, uh, they would no longer be autonomous. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. And so— Judith Capurso: And no longer have control. So that was— Oloye Adeyemon: So they actually resisted [crosstalk 25:00]. Judith Capurso: - voted down by—they-they resisted it. And Andrew Johnson listened to them. Uh, uh, and-and so that was vetoed. But what happened was the schools were reorganized and eventually by 1900 there was one single board of education. And the representation, uh, by black board members was always in the minority. There was an assistant superintendent— Oloye Adeyemon: Was it proportional to their, uh, numbers in the population? Judith Capurso: Mm, no. Perhaps in the beginning. But the interested thing was when you-when you see the evolution what you realize is that those numbers were always kept to-to just shy of a majority. Uh, there was a-a assistant superintendent who was always assigned to the governance of the black schools. And, um, but he was always beholden to the superintendent who was white. Oloye Adeyemon: So you had two assistant superintendents. Judith Capurso: So you’d have two assistant— Oloye Adeyemon: One black, one white. Judith Capurso: That’s correct. And the black super—assistant superintendent would govern the black schools. But the board of education itself would be, uh, majority white. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. So for this period, we have now, uh, we’ve-we-we have a single system. Now, the interior department also, uh, had the, uh, Bureau of Indian Affairs. Were-were—was it being administered in any way in the way that the Indian schools were being administered by the interior department? In that—durin’ the period when the interior department was [crosstalk 26:31]. Judith Capurso: Yeah. I couldn’t say. Uh, I don’t know enough about the administration of the, uh, the Indian department. Um, and whether that, uh, was effectively you know governed in the same way, I’m not sure. I would say there was a fair amount of leverage that the board of trustees had. Their biggest problem was not so much with the board of interior as it was with getting the funds that were promised them. Um, like in most situations, uh, what’s on the books in terms of laws and what actually happens in-in, you know, in real life, uh, there can be a great discrepancy. And when you read the board of minutes meeting minutes, which we have here in the archives, uh, they go back all the way to the handwritten meeting minutes from 1805, um, there’s lots of complaints and-and beggings of the black school board. Uh, or the black school board members, in particular the assistant superintendent. Oloye Adeyemon: For fair treatment. Judith Capurso: For fair treatment, um, fix our schools, we need more money, this is falling down. You know, we’re overcrowded here. Uh, it seemed that the population grew in DC, the black population grew, uh, in-in-in much, uh, you know, much greater numbers than the school could accommodate. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So this new structure, taking into consideration is going to be changes in the, uh, divisions. Judith Capurso: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: But basically the structure is still in place at the point that the schools desegregate. Judith Capurso: Correct. At this-at the time of 1954, divisions 10 through 13 were still all the black schools. Again, they weren’t geographic divisions. Because those schools were scattered throughout— Oloye Adeyemon: Scattered throughout. Judith Capurso: - the city. Oloye Adeyemon: So after the Supreme Court decision, what were the changes that occurred? Or after the implementation of the desegregation plan [crosstalk 28:82]. Judith Capurso: Right. And of course the implementation, again as like-like using appropriations and other-and other legal maneuvers, um, it took many years for the implementation. And several more court cases— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Judith Capurso: - for that implementation to-to become effective. But-but in-in the short-term, in the immediate, one of the immediate results of course was, uh, no longer making any distinction for race. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. And no longer having a-a, uh, separate board of trustees. That was done away with. Judith Capurso: Well, at that point there was still only one board of trustees. That-that-that single board of trustees, once the two merged— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, that is [crosstalk 29:11]. Judith Capurso: ¬- uh, would continue. And-and-and— Oloye Adeyemon: Do you still have an assistant superintendent who’s black? Judith Capurso: You—well, that configuration changed over the years. In other words, as long as you had colored schools you had to have the governance for strictly colored schools. So that continued right up to 1954 in the sense that that assistant superintendent was always in place. But the board itself, uh, sometimes it was appointed, sometimes it was elected, uh, sometimes it was 9 people, sometimes it was 13 people. All of those, uh, variations occurred and changed throughout the years depending on what was considered, um, the best, uh, structure at the time. Oloye Adeyemon: Again, after the-after the, uh, desegregation plan begins to be implemented as a result of the Supreme Court decision, are you saying that there continued to be an assistant superintendent for black schools? Or at that point there no longer were any schools that were considered, even though they may have had black students, they weren’t considered black schools? So there was no longer a need for two assistant superintendents or [unintelligible 30:20]? Judith Capurso: Um, I’m not exactly sure at that moment in ’54, um, whether they continued that dual assistant superintendency, uh, or whether they just allowed that to sort of—in other words allow the superintendents to serve their terms— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Judith Capurso: - and then restructure after that point. Oloye Adeyemon: Now— Judith Capurso: There was a white superintendent of course, uh, during those years. And-and afterwards for several years. Until eventually, uh, there was a complete change in— Oloye Adeyemon: At what point did things actually—what-what would you say would be the period when there was a major restructuring of how the schools were administered and how they were appropriated? ’Cause I understand DC, even in recent years, has gone through several changes. Nancy Suggs: If I can— Judith Capurso: Maybe Nancy can-can address that a little better. Nancy Suggs: There was an evolution. There was never just a-a stop here and start here. There was an evolutionary process. Once the schools were desegregated, we could no longer do business as usual. So then they had to have a new plan. And as the population grew and the demographics changed in the city, uh, the structure of the school system changed. And we didn’t need a-a-an assistant superintendent for white schools and an assistant superintendent for black schools anymore. Um, and so they had assistant superintendent for different things. For-for different quadrants of the city, for-for different areas. Uh, for high schools versus elementary schools. Uh, uh, they even had assistant superintendents who took over things like logistics. Um, which would include, uh, transportation, food service, or warehouse. Uh, they took, uh, the assistant superintendents for personnel matters. That kind of thing. Oloye Adeyemon: But we still talking— Nancy Suggs: So everything changed. Oloye Adeyemon: But we’re still talking about essentially the same structure at this point. Nancy Suggs: But it wasn’t black and white. It was everybody. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. It was— Judith Capurso: It wasn’t a dual structure. But I think what they tried to do was they tried to merge these two administrations in such a way that, uh, people wouldn’t lose their jobs. In other words, they didn’t wanna have this wholesale— Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Judith Capurso: - well, now we have twice the number of people so what they did is they changed the job descriptions. And they, I guess, flattened out the structure in such a way that they could maintain people in those positions, give them new tasks, new functions, and-and yet still maintain, uh, the governance to cover all the schools and all the bases that-that were there. They didn’t wanna reduce the size of the school system. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now these changes that we’re talkin’ about now are basically changes, but the overall structure of the administration’s the same. I understand that there’s actually been some significant changes at certain point in who runs the schools. I’m-I’m tryin’ to get an understanding there, if you could help me to understand what happened where since the schools were taken over by someone other than the entity that it had been. Which was I guess the school board. Nancy Suggs: Well, the—you have to understand that, um, the school board, uh, it became the board of education. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nancy Suggs: Was appointed. Oloye Adeyemon: By? Nancy Suggs: Um, it was appointed by the, uh, mayor and the commissioners. Now, the commissioners were appointed by the president and the Congress. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what-what year did that change? Nancy Suggs: It changed when home rule came into being. And I-I would have to look up the exact year, but it was in the ’60s. Oloye Adeyemon: What happened then? Nancy Suggs: And what happened was that we had a board of-of commission. Then they decided to give us a mayor and a city council, but they were also appointed by the president. And first— Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 34:25]? Nancy Suggs: The mayor. The first mayor that was appointed was Walter Washington. When home rule came in and they allowed us to elect our own officials, we could elect our own mayor and our own city council. Uh, and subsequently our own board of education. But that-that came later. Oloye Adeyemon: Now at some point even that changed. Nancy Suggs: We-we could elect them. Oloye Adeyemon: But then later I understand that the school board, uh, that it-it lost its autonomy again. Nancy Suggs: It did. It lost its autonomy, uh, about five years ago. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What were the circumstances? Nancy Suggs: And uh—the school system was in disarray. Uh, the city was in disarray. To the extent that the Congress stepped in and said, “Look, uh, we don’t think you’re doing a very good job of running things. So we are going to appoint a control board, a financial authority, to oversee what you’re doing.” Now, we still elected a mayor and we still elected a council and we still elected a school board. But they had no authority. They had to go through the financial authority that the Congress appointed, which was this—we called it the control board, but it was a DC financial authority. Oloye Adeyemon: Who had the control board? Nancy Suggs: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Someone— Nancy Suggs: Dr. Brimmer. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Nancy Suggs: Andrew Brimmer. Judith Capurso: And they were appointed. Nancy Suggs: And Dr. Brimmer is black. He’s very well-respected gentleman. Uh, he—uh, when he left the position, Alice Rivlin took over. Um, they also established, uh, a, uh, school authority to oversee the school board. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nancy Suggs: Um, and the school-school board lost its authority completely. Uh, for all practical purpose they didn’t function, uh, during this period. They regained their authority back in January. Uh, they— Oloye Adeyemon: So as it stands now there’s a school board. Nancy Suggs: There’s a school board that does have authority now. Judith Capurso: And-and this, again as I said, how the-the structure sort of evolves, um, now at this point it’s partially appointed and partially elected. Oloye Adeyemon: The [unintelligible 36:51]? Judith Capurso: The school board. Oloye Adeyemon: Board. Mm-hmm. Judith Capurso: So over the years, over the many years, uh, that has changed. Uh, sometimes it’s-it—the popular opinion is that they should be appointed. Sometimes the popular opinion is that they should be all elected. Uh, the popular opinion in-in-in the most recent times is that we should have both. Both appointed and elected. So in other words it really—it-it has a lot to do with popular opinion how the school board has responded to that and how it’s evolved in terms of numbers and how it’s whether elected or appointed. Uh, and that-that kind of structure. Oloye Adeyemon: And what about appropriations? Judith Capurso: Appropriation still comes through the Congress. Oloye Adeyemon: So are we—does that mean that people— Judith Capurso: That’s your budget. We have a budget— Oloye Adeyemon: - are-are not paying taxes? Residents of Washington are not paying taxes and their tax monies are being used for the schools? Nancy Suggs: No. We pay taxes. Judith Capurso: No. What it really means is that it-it has to do, I think, a little bit more with a comparison with states and how states can access federal funds that DC really can’t. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Judith Capurso: Because it doesn’t have a status as a state. Oloye Adeyemon: In states, the monies that people pay in taxes are then, uh, dispersed by the state board. Here, the monies that people pay in taxes that go for schools, who disperses that? Nancy Suggs: Well, the-the-the income taxes and the property taxes and the lottery, that kind of thing, there’s a city financial authority and budget authority that takes care of that. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Nancy Suggs: But we receive a substantial federal payment. Oloye Adeyemon: In addition to that? Nancy Suggs: Yes. And that federal payment is because, uh, a large percentage of the land in the city is owned by the federal government so we can’t tax it. We can’t get any revenue from it. Also, many embassies have property here in the city. Again, we can’t tax that. So because of that, the federal government gives us a large federal payment. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Nancy Suggs: But that federal payment does many things that don’t really help the average Joe Blow who lives here. For instance, we provide police, a certain percentage of the police department is stationed at the White House. Oloye Adeyemon: At the cost of? Nancy Suggs: That comes out of— Oloye Adeyemon: At a cost to the residents— Nancy Suggs: Yeah. That comes out of the federal payment because— Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. Out of the federal payment. I understand. Nancy Suggs: - see, the-the—that’s why they do this. It’s-it’s— Oloye Adeyemon: So it’s not just for schools. Nancy Suggs: It’s—oh no. It’s [laughter]. Oloye Adeyemon: Only a small percentage of it goes to— [Crosstalk 39:31] Nancy Suggs: The-the idea is that they-they’ve taken over our land— Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Nancy Suggs: - a great portion of our land and, um, so, um, they-they give us this money, uh, supposedly to make up for that. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Nancy Suggs: But at the same time, we’re providing all kinds of services to them. Oloye Adeyemon: To the capitol, to the government-to the government. Nancy Suggs: And one of those is the-the police department is forever involved. You know, when the president steps outside the gate of the White House, there are all kinds of policemen in the entourage along with the Secret Service. As well as policemen along whatever route he’s taking. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Nancy Suggs: We provide, uh, DC policemen to assist with the embassies, the Secret Service, the-the Capitol Police, and the, um, uh, the police that protect the ambassadors, the embassies. That kind of thing. Oloye Adeyemon: What would you say, uh, is, uh—what-what would you recommend, uh, to people who might be reading this transcript in the future, uh, as what—about the importance, what would you suggest the importance of this type of, uh, collection? And what are some of the ways that you would recommend that it be interpreted? How-how might it be useful to the world? Nancy Suggs: Well, we’re one of the few places in the country that has an archives of public education, that keeps its own history. And you know what they say, what is past is prologue. When we look through the records that we have, we find the same kinds of issues cropping up all the time. Uh, Dr. Paul Cook who is a, uh, educator, uh, in Washington, has turned over his vast collection of papers to us. We have people who are studying at universities all around us who come here, uh, to go through our records. Uh, to write their own dissertations. Uh, Dr. Antoinette Lee who is now at the National Park Service did a, uh, survey of our schools. People can come, learn about the architecture, how much it costs us to build the buildings, where we got the land from. Uh, did we buy it, did somebody donate it to us. Um, we have yearbooks, we have the-the, uh, minutes of the board meetings. All these things give people a vast knowledge of, uh, and background about where-where they live, the city, the history of the city. And the history of the school system. I think it’s of great, uh, importance. And I wish that more cities would, uh, establish an archives like this. Oloye Adeyemon: So that would be one of the ways that you think is good. Nancy Suggs: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, do you think it would have value if it were developed as educational curriculum for the students and current leaders? Nancy Suggs: Oh, I think so. I think it’s always good to know about the place you’re in. Judith Capurso: There are a lot of social issues that get, uh, that are represented of course in any kind of school system. And DC is the-is-is the same as-as any other large metropolitan area, where those social issues get expressed through the educational system. And this is a good place to study not just education itself, but lots of social issues— Oloye Adeyemon: Social issues. Judith Capurso: ¬- that are-that are tied to it. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I think that that’s one of the things that’s clear. That this, uh, collection will not just be of historical value, it will have value to many people, uh, for many reasons. Nancy Suggs: We’ve even had people come, uh, to do research for genealogical reasons. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. [Crosstalk 43:17] Oloye Adeyemon: So one of the things that we talked about early on and I guess I’d like to end with that. Uh, when we first contacted you and asked you to work with us in identifying resources to document the history, as particularly oral interviews for Bolling versus Sharpe, which was the Washington, DC component of the Brown versus Board Supreme Court decision, we found that even people that had some connection to it had not really been involved in commemorating that. Do you think, in addition to commemorating the Supreme Court decision, that these local, uh, decisions that figured so heavily in that case, should be commemorated? And if so, uh, do you feel that this collection might be useful in that way? In terms of really highlighting what-what happened in each of these communities. Nancy Suggs: Oh, I think so. I think that it’s very important for youngsters today to understand benefits they have because of what somebody else did. And the way to do that is to learn about these court cases. Um, I think it’s very important. There are people in this city that are working on those kinds of commemorations. Recently, uh, we had a commemoration of DC emancipation day— Oloye Adeyemon: Which happened earlier. Nancy Suggs: - which of course was earlier than the-the national. Um, many young people didn’t know that. And-and it’s a good way for them to get in touch with their past. Judith Capurso: Also it-it—we-we provide a-a resource for people to realize that these kinds of landmark decisions just don’t happen overnight. And it takes many, many years. This issue of desegregation, uh, started with Charles Sumner. He tried to desegregate Washington, DC— Oloye Adeyemon: Who was Charles Sumner? Judith Capurso: - schools. He was a contemporary of Abraham Lincoln, a US Senator from Massachusetts who was a-a an abolitionist and an advocate for equal rights, uh, in all ways. But particularly for black people. In fact, Frederick Douglass said, “If anybody should put flowers on any white man’s grave, black people should put it on Charles Sumner’s grave.” He was such a friend. And he tried to desegregate the school system back in 1870s. Oloye Adeyemon: Thank both of you. I appreciate you taking this time. This has been very helpful, not just for DC— Nancy Suggs: Thank you for coming. Oloye Adeyemon: - area. Looking at the whole, uh, country in terms of [unintelligible 45:42]. Nancy Suggs: Thank you. Judith Capurso: Thank you. [Pause 45:45 – 46:00] [End of Audio]

Description

The two explain the history of the Sumner School and its historic designation before moving to the roles emancipation, segregation and integration had on the logistics of building and closing schools, changes to the administration, and board demographics over time. Readers can gain insight into the logistical history of Washington D.C. schools through this interview.

Date Created

08/15/2001

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