Audio
Oral History Project - Cavendish, R.E. 1980
Transcript
Interview NRGNPP 007
File NRGNPP 007-T
TAPE SEVEN
Mr. R. E. Cavendish
Interviewer : Paul J. Nyden Beckley, W. Va. 25801
September 23, 1980
PN: When we start off, maybe you could just mention when you were
born, where you were born, and where you grew up.
REC: I was born at what is called Maywood; then it's an old post office there, it was on the top of Sewell Mountain. And I spent my life, my early life there, went to school there; and attended high school at Rainelle. We didn't have a high school in Fayette County at that time close enough for me to go to school, so we children living on the mountain there went to Rainelle High School. Our board of education paid our tuition into the different county; Rainelle's in Greenbrier County. And then after I finished high school, I went to New River State College, it was then—it’s West Virginia Tech now and got a teaching certificate. It took a year and a summertime at that time to get a teaching certificate. And I started teaching school just before I was 19 years old.
PN: Where was the first place you taught; was that at Sewell?
REC: No, the first place I taught was Cliff top. I took a teacher's place there that had to resign after a month or two of school. And I finished that year, and I was sent to Sewell next year. Now I did teach before I went to Cliff top, just two months, at a little one—room school back out at Corliss, back of Corliss. But we didn't have high enough enrollment there to keep a teacher, so they closed that school, and took those children to the Corliss school, and sent me to Cliff top. And I finished the year at Cliff top; that was the school year of 1928 and 1929. Then in the fall of t 29, I went to Sewell and taught there then until the spring of '33.
PN: Did you go to Thurmond after that?
REC: Yes, I was in Thurmond in ' 33.
PN: And how long did you teach in Thurmond?
REC: Four years.
PN: Maybe you mentioned this already. Did you mention the year that you were born and how old you are?
REC: 1 was born in 1909, in October 1909.
PN: So you were 20 then, when you began teaching at Sewell?
REC: At Sewell, right.
PN: Maybe what I could do is just, cause we're interested in a number of things about Sewell, so maybe I could run through a series of questions that maybe you could help us with. When you were teaching at Sewell, did you live right there at Sewell?
REC: Yes, yes. I boarded at Sewell for all four years. There's no possibility of driving to Sewell; there's no road to Sewell. And the way I usually got into Sewell on Sunday is walk from Cliff top down the little narrow—gauge railroad which was nine miles. Of course, there's another way I could get there is to drive to Keeneys Creek or Nut tall, and then walk up the C & O Railroad from Nut tall to Sewell. But the way I usually did it was just from Cliff top and down through the park, usually just about a little over two—hours walk.
PN: You had to walk to get in there then?
REC: That's right, yes, yes. On Sunday, of course and I always had to get back on Sunday, and on Sunday was no, no trains running at all, down the track. And coming out on Friday evening, I usually was able to catch the little coal train that was going back up the mountain. But
Sunday, there was no way to get in but walk.
PN: Was it the coal train that went from Sewell to Cliff top?
REC: That's right, yes. It was just a little, this narrow gauge road. You see, the tipple was at Sewell, but the coal was mined at Cliff top, so they had to haul this coal from Cliff top to Sewell. They had little shay engines, and small railroad cars of course home—made —— which I guess probably hold 20 tons, or something like that. That way is about nine miles from the mine, where the coal was mined, to the tipple where it was…
PN: When you lived in Sewell, how many people would you say lived there at that time?
REC: I would say there was around 200 people. 1 usually had, there was a two—room school there, and around 40 children in the school . so 1 would say there's 200 people. And of course, that was, at that time schools were segregated, you know. There was a two—room school of white children; and then there was a colored school there too.
PN: Both in Sewell?
REC: Both in Sewell. It was just a one—room school —— the colored school, or Black school.
PN: How many houses were there in Sewell, about?
REC: Oh, I would roughly say 25 to 30 homes, yes. Now, when I went there, there was a lot of old buildings that had been old store buildings that had been there years before. They were just abandoned then, and the company store was in one of those old buildings. But there were several old store buildings that, of course, had been there in the better days of Sewell when it was, that had been abandoned.
PN: They were abandoned In 1929?
REC: Yes, yes. Of course, I suppose maybe in the early 1900s probably was when they were there, when they were open for business.
PN: What other, that was something else I was going to ask you, what other, and I guess you answered it already in part, what types of structures were there in Sewell? You mentioned there were two school— houses and these abandoned stores.
REC: Yes, well, they were all frame buildings. Now the school building that I was in, I believe, had the only concrete foundation of any of the buildings there; all the rest of them were stone foundations. I was down there, went down there two or three years ago; it was the first time I'd been there for 30 years or so. Of course, the only way that I was able to find this old school building was by this concrete foundation. And then after I found it, why I was able to locate the other places 1 knew where I used to board, and the church, the company office, and where people, friends, lived that I knew, right around close to the schoolhouse.
PN: You said there was a boarding house? Or did you stay in the…
REC: There was a boarding house when I first went to Sewell, but I later, it later was closed up. And I boarded with the store manager and his wife the rest of the time I was there. He was, he had been principal of the school before he took the job with the store. He and his wife didn't have any children, and they took me to board with them. I stayed with them about three years, I think.
PN: And when you were there, you said there was a church, or churches?
REC: Yes, there's one church, a community church, all people used. 1 think mostly a Baptist church, but, now I presume that it was built by the coal company. Usually in those times, in the small towns like that, the coal company did build the community church.
PN: Most of the people were Baptists? Or were there other denominations and religions?
REC: There really wasn't, I remember, there, I guess there was a congregation of Methodists and of Baptists, because once a month, the old
Baptist preacher would come in, usually on Sunday night, and preach.
And then there was a Methodist minister who came in once a month, for part of the time that I was there. So apparently, there were two; there was a congregation of Methodists and a congregation of Baptists.
PN: Were the churches segregated at that time as well?
REC: Yes, yes, they were.
PN: Was there a Black church of some kind?
REC: Yes, yes, the Blacks had there church there too.
PN: What were they mostly, Baptists?
REC: I believe so; now I wouldn't I believe that was the usual denomi— nation of the Blacks.
PN: Were there many immigrants, or any immigrants, from Europe that were living in Sewell and working in the mines?
REC: No, no, while I was, the time that I was there, the, all the people, or most of the people there were people that lived there practically all their lives. Some people had been there all their lives. I do remember there was one family, I believe of Italian heritage, lived there. Their name 's Malay; they, they, some of them live here in Oak Hill now, and scattered around over the county. But that's the only immigrant, or family that I suppose that were not English or Scottish or anything like tha t.
PN: Do you have any estimate of, say, what percentage of Sewell was Black and what percentage was white at the time that you were there?
REC: Well, judging from the schools, I would say it was about two to one because we had a two—room white school and a one—room Black school. So, I would, that would be about the best way that I would know of estimating it, from that.
PN: Did most of the Black families had come in quite some time ago too?
REC: Yes, yes, they had lived there many years too.
PN: I guess they'd obviously come in to work in the mines?
REC: That's right. Well, of course, they worked in the coke ovens there, you see, there wasn't any mine there. All of the people there worked on the coke ovens and in the tipple.
PN: So Sewell wasn't really strictly a coal—mining town then, but it was more a coke…
REC: It was a coke town. That was all that was done. Then, of course, the coal company, they shipped coal from there. There was a good many men working on the tipple. But most of the people who lived there in Sewell, their jobs was on the coke ovens making coke.
PN: And the tipple was from the mine up at Cliff top?
REC: At Cliff top, yes.
PN: And the coal was brought down?
REC: The coal was brought down from Cliff top, and used there in the ovens; and then, of course, part of it was shipped. Now at the time that I was there, and I think for years before, most of the output of the coke made there went to the Buick Motor Company. They furnished the coke for .
PN: Up to Detroit, is that where they sent it?
REC: Yes.
PN: I think that the Park Service is particularly interested in the town, so let me ask you some more questions. What colors were most of the houses?
REC: Red, that was the standard color of the typical company town back in that time, red.
PN: Red? Like a dark red?
REC: Yea, kind of a brick red, I would say.
PN: And in these homes , how many rooms were in each of the homes?
REC: Oh, there were, I would say, five or six in each of the homes. A lot of the homes there were double homes; that is, they were two—family homes. But, of course, there was a lot of homes too that were single homes. But I would say about six rooms would be the average.
PN: How did people use these rooms? What were each of the six rooms used
for?
REC: Well, of course, largely, they'd have their living room and bedrooms and kitchen; maybe some of them had a dining room. Some of them used the kitchen for their dining room. It was similar to, just typical of any home.
PN: Would people often have wallpaper on the walls inside?
REC: Oh yes, yes, yes, their homes, most of them had their homes were well, well fixed up, and very attractive on the inside, just as attractive as, in fact, perhaps more so than a lot of, because people down there didn't own automobiles. So they didn't have money to spend on automobiles, so they perhaps took, were more, took more pride in their homes than the average.
PN: Would the wallpaper on the walls be different patterns and colors, usually?
REC: Yes, yes.
PN: Did most people have rugs on the floors?
REC: Yes, yes. Yes, their homes were just, most of them were just typical homes. Of course, back in that time, they were different from what they would be now. They didn't have wall—to—wall carpet ting, but they had their rugs on the floor.
PN: In a typical living room, what type of furniture would most people
have , in their living room?
REC: Well, the ones that I was familiar with would just very much like, usually; they didn't furniture, very much be they had the sofa and the chairs, radio, console radio have TVs, of course, then. But they were just typical like you'd find anywhere.
PN: What would they have in the bedrooms? Similar to what would be today?
REC: Yes, yes, they just had their beds, and maybe a couple of chairs.
PN: And in the kitchens, there would be?
REC: Well, of course, the kitchens where they, they'd have coal stoves, most of them. In fact, I guess all of them would have either coal or wood stoves, cause there's no gas there, or artificial heat of any kind. And outside of that, their kitchens would be, naturally they wouldn't the cabinets like we have today; but they used to have back in those days, it was a kind of a cabinet, movable, you know, I 've forgotten, just kind of a chest—thing. The upper part of it would have a flour chest and a place for dishes; and the bottom part of it, a place to store staples.
PN: Where would people purchase their furniture usually?
REC: They would, I guess they would, get, either at, probably have to go to Charleston or Montgomery to get, maybe Thurmond; I don't recall of ever being a furniture store in Thurmond. But now, I would say that 90% of the furniture was, they got from mail—order catalogs, unless the people were real well—off, why, that would be the cheapest, most convenient way to get their furniture.
PN: How was that delivered, on the train?
REC: On the train. yea.
PN: And what types of, you know, leisure, recreation activity would people engage in in Sewell?
REC: Well, they had a good many parties; invite people in, you know, for parties. Then, of course, they played cards, and went to school meetings and church meetings. And Wednesday nights and Sunday nights, they had church. And that was the main things; they were just very simple activities. The children, of course, played ball. They didn't have really room enough to play ball, but they did. Right in front of the school, we had a little area not any bigger, much bigger than this room [which measured about 30 feet by 12 feet], maybe this room, twice as big as this room that was the playground. And they played ball and about every other game.
PN: Were there any bars or saloons there at the time?
REC: No, no, that was back in Prohibition days, you see. They had not, however, there, there were some of the old buildings that I was telling you about, had been bars back in the early days. They had plenty of bars then, but during the time that I was there, they didn't have any bars. They had a moonshiner or two, but, beverages [laughs]
PN: There was one company store at the time?
REC: Yes, yes.
PN: And that was the only store in town?
REC: That was the only store in town.
PN: People would generally buy most of their food there?
REC: Bought all of their food, and most of their clothes, and everything right there.
PN: Would many people raise gardens?
REC: Yes, just about everybody; everybody raised a garden. See, that was back right in the, right in the middle of the Depression. They had no work, practically no work at all in the summertime; there's no coke made. And in the wintertime, they felt pretty good if they got two or three days work a week there, yes.
PN: What did people raise in their gardens usually?
REC: Well, just all kinds of vegetables corn, beans, tomatoes, things like that. And they raised some fine, although it was very steep on the hillside, people had their gardens there, and they raised fine produce.
PN: On the hillside was where most people had their gardens?
REC: There wasn't any other place for them to have them.
PN: Were the gardens the people raised, they wouldn't necessarily be right next to their homes, but…
REC: No, sometimes they were half a mile or so away; I knew some of them that had their gardens half a mile or so from their home.
PN: Really? Would any people keep hogs, or cows, or any animals?
REC: No, there was one family that I knew that kept a cow for, well, I think they finally got rid of the cow. Now that was one thing, there was no fresh milk there; everybody used condensed milk that they got out of the store. There was, of course, no fresh milk of any kind after this one family got rid of the cow.
PN: Did people fish in the river?
REC: Oh yes, yes. And that's still is one of the best fishing parts of New River, they say, right in the area of Sewell.
PN: What did people generally catch?
REC: Different kinds of catfish and, of course, they caught some pike and, not trout, but, I 've forgotten the other fish that was caught. But the catfish was the main; they'd put what they call trotlines across the river, and have hooks on these lines.
PN: Trotlines?
REC: Uh huh. And they would go every morning and raise their lines,
they called them, and take the fish off. Sometimes they would, I 've seen, oh, 30 or 40 pound mudcats. And, of course, they had other catfish too bluecats and channel cats but the mudcat was the biggest and ugliest one.
PN: It could weigh 40 pounds?
REC: Oh yes, yes. The fall of the year, they hunted ducks and geese.
Geese landed in there and, every once in a while, we'd find a, bag a good, big wild goose, different kind of ducks.
PN: When people would catch all of these fish, would they smoke them or salt them to preserve them in any way, or generally eat them?
REC: No, they'd just eat them. They weren't that, more plentiful I would say, one person caught more than it, they'd probably share them with their neighbors.
PN: Did people have refrigerators or ice boxes to preserve things?
REC: No; at that time the refrigerators were just beginning to come in,
the electric refrigerators. But most of the time, I would say, they didn't have an ice box because there's no ice plants or anything, no way of
getting ice around there. So in the summertime, I t d say, just have to get along without, maybe have a spring house or a place, you know, a cool place, a cooler place than usual to keep their milk and stuff. We really didn't have milk, of course. Outside, the main thing would be the meat and fishes, you see, so we'd just have to use that up.
PN: What did the town look like? There were no roads, I guess.
REC: No, no roads, just wide paths, I would say, or walking. Now back years before, probably around 1900, there was a road went across the mountain from over about Layland, the top of the mountain at Lay land, across there to Sewell. And they had a ferry at the river, and it went on up to Fayetteville. I 've forgotten what the name of this road was, maybe the old state road, it seems to me. And you could still see that it went right through the middle of the town, where it hadn't been used.
It had originally been a wagon road.
The wagons would come into Sewell then?
REC: That's right, yes. You could see, I was down there this last summer, and there's a jeep, probably a fisherman, that comes down off the mountain to the river, or almost to the river, a jeep or a four—wheel drive truck, I saw one of them down there. Of course, now I 've drived down through the park, down through the park to, oh, within half a mile of Sewell, and walk on in.
PN: In the town, where were the coke ovens located, in relation to the homes?
REC: Well, they were located east of the homes. The homes were, really started just about the, just almost at the end of the coke ovens.
[Brief interruption as package is delivered to the door.]
PN: You were discussing the coke ovens and where they were located.
REC: Yes. They extended all, I would say, half a mile on up the river
from the town. And 1 think they had about, as well as I remember, about 125 ovens.
PN: What kind of atmosphere did that create in the in terms of, how did it look?
REC: Well, when those coke ovens were going, why it was very smoky, it was
a kind of Pittsburgh; the place was very, a lot of smoke. People that
suffered quite a bit from sinus in the wintertime; I know I had a seige with it every year.
PN: You did? Why in the winter more than the summer?
REC: Well, it was just damper and colder; and perhaps too, there was more
coal smoke in the air because there were, made more coke in the wintertime
than in the summer. And it’s just cold, damp air off the river, you see.
Now I could go back up to my home up at the top of the mountain; and in
two or three days time, my sinus was gone. Just the difference in the atmosphere .
PN: Did it snow a good deal in the winters?
REC: No. It was very seldom to where you got a big snow down there. Just many times you would look up along toward the top of the canyon, and see where the snow came down part way; but down at Sewell, you wouldn't have any snow, even in the winter. And of course, never, as well as I remember, we never had drifted snows like we have up here in the higher elevation. Because It's sheltered there; both sides of the mountain, you see, is right in.
PN: What, were there any, was there any type of gas or electric lighting at that time?
REC: Well yes, the electric, electric lighting. But as far as the town was concerned, there was none at the town; I don't recall of any light posts or anything in the town; maybe at the store and at the railroad station. But outside of that, if you went anywhere at night, you usually carried your flashlight with you to see your way.
PN: But there were lights in the homes?
REC: Lights in the homes, yes, electric lights in the homes.
PN: You said that people, or that many people, had radios. What types of programs did people listen to, or did they enjoy?
REC: Well, it's varied. A lot of people, of course, just liked the Western, but a lot of people, of course you didn't have the choice then as we have today. Just the AM radio; you very seldom ever got a good radio program outside of the Western and Uncle Dave Makin type of music and so on. The Grand Old Opry, I remember on Saturday night, that was one of the favorites of everybody. And news, of course, that was the important thing. And of course, a few programs like Amos and Andy, and that type of shows is what they listened to.
PN: Where would they pick up the radio Stations from?
REC: Well, at that time, there wasn't any stations in this area. Cincinnati; and KDKA, 1 guess that's Pittsburgh; I suppose there was a station probably in Charleston and Huntington. But at Oak Hill, I don't remember, I don't believe Beckley stations had come on at that time, the time that I was down there.
PN: Where did they pick up the Grand Old Opry from, WSM from Nashville?
REC: Yes, WSM, Nashville.
PN: There are sometimes 1 can pick that up now.
REC: Yea. Of course, everybody had their aerial, something like the television aerials, except they had to have an outside wire, usually about 50 or 100 feet long from, running into their house, and a lead wire from that to their radio.
PN: Did the long lead wire help them pick up…
REC: Yes, that gave them a better, better reception. Oh, it wasn’t until a good many years after that, that radios first started coming out that you didn't have to have an outside aerial.
PN: Inside the homes we were talking about the gardens before —— did people cultivate or keep any plants in their homes often?
REC: I just, 1 don't recall. I 'm sure that they would, because the people were interested in flowers. Most of the homes, or a lot of the homes had flowers in the summertime, you know.
PN: Outside?
REC: Outside, yes. So I’m sure that they would have some would have had flowers. But I don't recall any particular ones.
PN: If you could think of a typical family unit, how many people would be living in the homes of a typical family in Sewell? If there was such a thing?
REC: Well, I don't know as there were any families that you could say were typical. Now I know, going back to school, I had sometimes three children in a family. I had one family that had five children that I recall. There were, at that time I would say that, you could say there were fairly large families, but they ranged from two to five, about the most that I recall.
PN: You said you had about 40 children in the school?
REC: That's right.
PN: What grades did you teach, all the grades from first through
REC: From the first through eighth, yes. I usually had, there was two rooms, 1 had another teacher; I called her the primary teacher. She taught the, oh maybe the first, second, and third. And I would teach the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth. Or it just depended; I would try to divide them fairly even.
PN: There were two teachers?
3
REC: Two teachers, yes. But I remember I would sometimes have the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth; and sometimes the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth, depending on the numbers. And of course, you had grown chi 1, people, or from, people from the six—year olds up to, had them 16— or 17—year olds.
PN: Did most of the adults who lived there know how to read?
REC: Oh yes, yes, yes. They, I don't recall, don’t remember right now of any people that could not read. Of course, that was a big pastime, reading.
PN: I was going to ask you about that too.
REC: I found that children there read many more books, and were more
interested in reading than they were anywhere else. And they read, Of course 1 think I had them to read a book a month to report on at school.
And they were avid readers.
PN: What types of books would you assign?
REC: Well, just, of course we had a state—adopted lists of recommended books, you know, for our libraries. And of course, that type of book that we had in the library, selected for different grades, you know. It was largely the same as, as you, we used to have up until a few years ago Tom Sawyer, and Huckleberry Finn, and the fairy tales, Anderson's fairy tales. And for the primary, there was Nixie Bunny, and all the bunny stories, for the primary children.
PN: What types of materials did most of the adults read at that time?
REC: Just mostly newspapers and magazines. Everybody took magazines, had different magazines. As far as reading any books, I don't think, because they wouldn't have access to them. Maybe some of the families, the better—off families, had some books of their own; but most of them did not.
PN: Where would they get the newspapers from?
REC: They would get them from the news butch on the local train that Stopped there. That was the only way that we had of getting daily news— papers. But on Sunday morning, everybody would go to the station to get the Charleston Gazette, and the news butch, and anything else that he had, he had all kinds of things to sell them apples and oranges and bananas.
PN: This was a guy who came in on the train?
REC: Yea, yea. See, each train had what they called the news bitch, butch.
PN: Butch?
REC: Butch, yea. And he had a little corner on one of the trains that he sold his wares —— candy, and chewing gum, and cigarettes, and all kinds of things like that. He would make his rounds through the trains, you see, and then when he come to a stop like Sewell, why, he'd bring his stuff, or maybe just have his window open, and people would get their papers and things out of the window while it was waiting there.
PN: He'd come through every day?
REC: Oh yes.
PN: So you'd get the daily papers then that same day.
REC: Back at that time, when I was there, C & O Railroad had four trains stop there each day from, two eastbound and two westbound. And they were called local trains; they stopped at practically every station -- Sewell, Fire Creek, Beury, and just every place that there was a sign, why, they would stop. At Sewell, that was one of the big things of the day; and in the evening, people would go to meet the train, the Number Eight, it was the westbound train that came in about, oh, around seven o'clock, just after people had eaten their evening meal. And many people go to the station to see the people come in. And I might add too that the children in school, whenever they finished school at Sewell, finished the eighth grade and got their diploma, why they had to ride the train to high school. Part of them from Sewell went to Montgomery, and to Ansted. And they would leave home in the morning, this morning train ran about seven o' clock; and they would get back in about seven that night. They had about a twelve—hour day for them. The board of education, I think, since they didn't have a high school, why they provided the railroad fare for the children going to these schools.
PN: Was the Charleston Gazette the main paper that people read, or did they get papers from other
REC: The Charleston Gazette was the one that I remember. Now there might have been a Huntington paper, cause this Number Fourteen, they call it, westbound, it originated, I believe, in Huntington. Huntington, or maybe
Cincinnati; I believe it was Huntington though.
PN: The train was coming east?
REC: Coming east, yes, no, this Fourteen started in Cincinnati. So it might have, I believe you probably have had the Cincinnati Post and some Huntington papers too, along with the Gazette.
PN: Was that primarily a coal train?
REC: No, that was a passenger train, strictly a passenger train. And of course, mail; they carried the mail and a certain amount of baggage like a piece of furniture, or something like that, see, would come on one of those trains.
PN: types of magazines would people subscribe to or get? Would they buy them on the trains, or get them in the mail?
REC: They'd subscribe for a lot of papers, but I wouldn't know just what the magazines were. Back in those days, there was one news magazine that just about everybody took that was called the Pathfinder. And just about everyone interested in national news took the Pathfinder; it was something like U.S. News or Time, like that. And of course, there were some magazines, the romance magazines, them too.
PN: Did people keep pets often, like cats or dogs?
REC: There were some dogs, but not too many. I imagine probably feeding them was a big; back in the Depression days, food would go to the children instead of dogs.
PN: Just a couple of more detailed questions here. When you think of the furnishings that people had in their homes, say for lamps, what did the lamps look like that they had? What types of lamps did they have?
REC: Well, they were very similar to lamps, present lamps; they had table lamps, electric lamps, and then they had the floor—stand lamps.
They were just the same order as what we have today.
PN: How about the chairs and sofas; would they be similar too?
REC: Similar, yes. They had more, I don't believe, they didn't have the heavy, stuffed furniture then that we have now. They had, of course, every house had a rocking chair or two. And more wood than the chairs and furniture that we have today.
PN: Did the women ever do things like make soap?
REC: No, no, I never knew of any of them doing that. Of course, for one reason, they wouldn't probably have the fat to make it then. They 'd just kind of go on the, especially in the towns, it would be the regular store—bought soap. Now back out in the rural areas, or farming areas, I can remember of people saving their fat and so on, and making soap. 1 can remember home—made soap. I don't think my mother ever made any, but I have an aunt that made home—made soap. And of course, apple butter, that was a big time of the year.
PN: I guess it's just about to run out.
[End of Tape]
Description
School teaching - life in Sewell 1929-33, life in Thurmond
Date Created
09/23/1980
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