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Oral History Interview with Nathanial Briggs Pt. 2
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Oloye Adeyemon: Brown vs. Board oral history collection. Clarendon County School segregation. Segregation interviews. Interviewee Mr. Nathaniel Briggs. Interviewer Oloye Adeyemon from the National Parks Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mr. Briggs, Teaneck, New Jersey on August 1, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project. Funded by the National Park Service during the Summer of 2001. As part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Silo History Project. Mr. Briggs, what is your full name?
Nathaniel Briggs: Nathaniel Briggs.
Oloye Adeyemon: What’s your birth date?
Nathaniel Briggs: October 29, 1947.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Summerton, South Carolina. County of Clarendon.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what are your parent’s names?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Eliza and Harry Briggs.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Summerton, South Carolina, Clarendon County.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did-what did your parents do for work?
Nathaniel Briggs: My father was a small farmer and a gas station attendant. My mother worked in-as-in the hotel industry.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. What type of education opportunities did your parents have?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, very little. Uh, I mean, in Clarendon County at that particular time when they were growin’ up there was probably less than half of ’em went-finished high school. Uh, they—since it was a farmin’ community, uh, most folks went to work on the farm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, but your father was able to get a job at the gas station, your mother at the hotel, so they were not, uh, at-at-at least during the time you were in school, uh, involved in agriculture.
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, on-on a small scale. Very small scale.
Oloye Adeyemon: Just for the family?
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they did that on their own property.
Nathaniel Briggs: On the property. My-my mother’s property had property. Matter of factor, we-we never worked for anybody else but-but family.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, with your father, your father owned his home?
Nathaniel Briggs: Owned-owned his home, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it in town or was it—did he have enough land to garden?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, we had a small garden, uh, on the property. It was probably here at that time, and about three-four acres right there on the outskirts of town.
Oloye Adeyemon: She actually lived right-right there in Summerton, as opposed to w-workin’ there.
Nathaniel Briggs: Well, they don’t—it’s-it’s-it-it seems that the property line stops, uh, uh, a hundred yards from our-from our property.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were a hundred yards from Summerton.
Nathaniel Briggs: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Uh, you were in the St. Marks area.
Nathaniel Briggs: St. Marks church area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Uh, so, your parents had grown up pretty close to where they were living.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Same-same general area.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, did you have brothers and sisters?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Um.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were their names?
Nathaniel Briggs: Three brothers, one sister. A older brother Harry, uh, Briggs the Junior, and Thomas Reed, and Louie Moses and Katherine, uh, Briggs.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, in your case, uh, what type of work have you done? What do you do?
Nathaniel Briggs: I work for-employed by the Ford Motor Company in Edison, New Jersey.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what do you do for them?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I’m an inspector, a vehicle manufacturer or a range of pickup trucks.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How long have you been with ’em?
Nathaniel Briggs: Thirty-one years.
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, when you were growing up in, uh, in-in Summerton, the schools were strictly segregated.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, what school did you start at?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, at-at that time there was one hi-there was one school, Scotch Branch [crosstalk 04:06] it had-it had elementary, junior high, and high school in the same location.
Oloye Adeyemon: Same location. And, when you were there as a young child, primary grades, uh, were you aware of segregation? Did you-did you have a-a sense that there was a difference? And did you ever question it?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, there—the sense of the difference is that, uh, we just lived on separate sides of town. Um, we never intermingled with sports, with religious, uh, with anything. We just never intermingled. Uh, basically, for me growin’ up, the one time I came in contact with a-with-with-with-with Whites was probably, uh, doing the job I had. Doing newspapers. Remember [crosstalk 05:01]
Oloye Adeyemon: You delivered newspapers?
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. And, um, it’s-it’s just never came in contact.
Oloye Adeyemon: What newspaper did you deliver?
Nathaniel Briggs: The-the Grip 05:09 paper, doing the Boy Scout, or Cub Scout there. And the Charleston Evening Post. I delivered it.
Oloye Adeyemon: So the Charleston paper was circulating in the Summerton area?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yes. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Summerton didn’t-didn’t print its own newspaper?
Nathaniel Briggs: No. No, it-it did not.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, in school, the school is segregated, but as a primary student, are you aware, one, that there is a difference between the education that Whites were receiving and that Blacks were receiving? And do you ever remember anyone saying anything about it, or do you have [unintelligible 05:46] yourself questioning it?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, as a, probably, as I was a elementary, uh, kid you-you, the question was that, um, um, you can see 10 school buses, uh, parked around, uh, [unintelligible 06:06] and your school had no school buses. And I remember people droppin’ off kids in their own personal cars to get to school. I-I remember seeing that my grandmother would call it a ser-uh, uh, they’d call it a-a Sarah, where they have, um, buggies bringing kids to school. You know, with-with-with the farm animal. With-with-with the horses and the mule. And drop kids off and come pickin’ ’em up. Now that’s a difference that I saw that—uh, as far as what went on inside the school.
Oloye Adeyemon: You weren’t aware.
Nathaniel Briggs: I was just told that the books that we got was old. Um, the backs was torn off of them.
Oloye Adeyemon: You-you remember them being old like that?
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so what you were getting was-were the olds books that the White students had used?
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: When they got new books.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you remember that parents would bring their children to school, but you also mentioned school buses. And you said the White school children were brought by bus, but Black children had to walk?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. You-you-you can-you can see, uh, um, uh, because of the school wasn’t that far apart. Uh, I know, walkin’ distance. Probably 10 miles walkin’ distance, both schools. I mean, you-you-you can see, uh, the buses. That’s [crosstalk 07:23].
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So there was that difference that you were aware of.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, these school buses, were these buses that were provided by the, uh, school system? These were actually regular school buses.
Nathaniel Briggs: R-regular old-old school buses.
Oloye Adeyemon: But they were not provided to the Black children.
Nathaniel Briggs: No. They were not.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, so you really didn’t have a whole lotta questions during those early years.
Nathaniel Briggs: No. That—
Oloye Adeyemon: About it. What did you think about the education that you received?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Looking back at it, and also, at the time, what did you think about it, you know, as a child?
Nathaniel Briggs: It was probably good because that’s all-that’s all that was offered. Um, they was—[unintelligible 08:10] alternative there for us if there’s anything better, um.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you think about the teachers?
Nathaniel Briggs: The teachers were excellent, I think the teachers loved what they did because they lived in the community. They had pride because—
Oloye Adeyemon: So these were teachers that you knew from church and from the neighborhood?
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. And, uh.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they knew your family.
Nathaniel Briggs: And our family knew [unintelligible 08:35]
Oloye Adeyemon: Sometimes they were re-related to you.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Because it’s-it’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that true? That they were sometimes relatives?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yes. There-there were. And a sense of being a-a farming community everybody knew everybody. Basically everybody knew-knew everybody. Uh, if you get a new, uh, teacher comin’ to the community, the community accepted them and-and-and-and-and put ’em, ’cause you couldn’t get a hotel, so you had to, if you was a new teacher just comin’ in, you’d have to live with somebody. Or live with a teacher. Or live with somebody’s else in the community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So the teachers were-were-were not only people that knew you, but was there-did they have a concern about you? Did they really take time with you? And encourage you to-to do well in your studies?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. I-I think it-it was more of a pride that-that-that you-that you do well. And, um, with-with the-the education system that was there, I think they did a excellent job.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did your parents feel about education? [Fading voice 09:39] education.
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I th—the-the dream was to-to do better than-than I did in life. And that-that this [background noise 09:51]
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, do you think that they wanted you to get a better education in order that you could go elsewhere and make a better life? Or were they hoping that by you better-getting a better education that it would change something?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, both. I-I-I-I-I think, um, uh, you-you-you do the best that-that-that-that you can for your children. Whether they stay in-state or they, you know, fly somewhere else. I think the dream is, at that particular time, like any other American. You know, we-we-we want our children to be educated. They couldn’t get it, uh, uh, equal education at that particular time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you know if your parents, uh, during the time when you were growing up, were forced to, uh, work in the fields during part of the year [fading voice 10:54]
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Fading voice 10:57]
Nathaniel Briggs: I-I don’t, my mother wasn’t because her father, uh, had a pretty good sized farm at that-that particular time. And they hired folks on that-on that farm. So, on my mother’s side, no. On my father’s side, with him being the only child, uh, he was forced just to do anything that [unintelligible 11:15].
Oloye Adeyemon: So, but many people were. Many people were.
Nathaniel Briggs: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even in your generation.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, do you think that the opportunities they had had, um, in terms of getting education, were in any way affected, was that—’cause I know it-it-in the-in-in-in earlier times White and Black many times, especially in rural and coastal communities, uh, did not finish high school. Do you feel that they went as far as it was thought they needed to go? Or they went as far as they were able to go because of the conditions?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they have a choice about how segregation [unintelligible 12:02]
Nathaniel Briggs: Some of them did not have a choice. Um, if you-if your family share-sharecropped, sometimes the-the, and we say sharecropping.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s the—
Nathaniel Briggs: The—
Oloye Adeyemon: - where they were actually on someone else’s land.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. And you had to farm. If school started in September and th-and there’s crop still out in the field, well, the priority was that not to let your child start school in September. The priority was that your child or your family would work the field until the crops is in. And you-your child didn’t start school till the middle of October.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the parents sometimes needed their help because the more people that were working, the more money—
Nathaniel Briggs: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - they might be able to make.
Nathaniel Briggs: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they needed that money to survive.
Nathaniel Briggs: Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, my question is, in your father and mother’s case, do you think that they were forced to end their education at that point, or, during the time that they were growing up, that was considered to be a sufficient education? Did they go as far as their parents felt they needed to go?
Nathaniel Briggs: Probably, I-I’ve never questioned why they didn’t go onto college. Um, probably was the thinkin’ at that time, that’s par-as far as they need to go.
Oloye Adeyemon: But there were others who might have attempted to go even that far and weren’t able to. But, because of their circumstances, they [background noise 13:28]
Nathaniel Briggs: [Unintelligible 13:29]
Oloye Adeyemon: The, in the school when you were attendin’, did the teachers encourage the students to do well and to consider college?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, yes. Uh, I-I think, um, um, a lotta folks did go on to-to college.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did the teachers encourage it?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yes, they did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, when you went to, uh, I understand that when you got to the age where you were ready to enter junior high school, your family went to Miami. Why?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, during—I remember—during the-the years that I was probably elementary to junior high school, that my father got-got laid off and he tried farmin’.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that because of his involvement in the Briggs case?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yes. During-during that—
Oloye Adeyemon: He lost his job?
Nathaniel Briggs: - he lost his job. And doing that, it took the time that when we tried farmin’ to, you know, to-to feed us. And, uh, I remember him takin’ his crop to the-to the market, which is cotton, and he couldn’t get fair market value for his labor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because of his name.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, did he have to sell his property when he left?
Nathaniel Briggs: No. Wha-what happened is that the farmin’-the farm was-was basically on my mother’s side of the family. And we already owned our own house. So he, um, well, we bein’ poor, he went on to Florida two years ahead of us.
Oloye Adeyemon: Once you all went to Florida did someone-did you-did he remain the owner of his home?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yes. We-we—
Oloye Adeyemon: Who lived in it while you were gone?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, no one. Basically closed it down. And my grandmother would occasionally come up on weekends.
Oloye Adeyemon: And check on it.
Nathaniel Briggs: Check on it.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, when you went to Miami, what kind of work did you find there?
Nathaniel Briggs: Same type of business. Same thing. In the, uh, uh, a gas station sometime and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Did your mother find the same kinda work as well?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, she stayed in-in the hotel business.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, do you know if, uh, the hotel that she worked at there, was owned by a Jewish man?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh.
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause I remember you remember mentioned in the other interview that she worked for a Jewish hotel owner.
Nathaniel Briggs: I couldn’t say.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 15:53] connections with Jewish family—
Nathaniel Briggs: Probably.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 15:56] in the same town.
Nathaniel Briggs: Probably so, but I-I don’t think the folks in Florida knew anything about Briggs at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: So she had to find her own job.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, when you got there, you were starting junior high school. When you arrived in Miami.
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, what school? Junior high school. Yes. [Unintelligible 16:13]
Oloye Adeyemon: You weren’t in junior high school in Summerton, but do you have a sense that the junior high schools in Miami were about the same or different?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, the junior high school I went to in Miami was-was also segregated. Just-just at that particular time during the ‘60s, they started to-to mandate that you learn to speak Spanish. Uh, and this is during the-the-the-the-the Cuban, uh, Revolution. And, um, they anticipated that more Cubans would be coming to Miami, so that-that was a part of that.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you arrived in Miami in what year?
Nathaniel Briggs: ’60, probably 1960.
Oloye Adeyemon: But it was still segregated.
Nathaniel Briggs: The high school wasn’t. Um, because of the Black community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what—are you saying they offered Spanish or they required students to learn Spanish?
Nathaniel Briggs: They-they required that you learn Spanish. In South Carolina it was speaking French. That was part of the curriculum that my-that my-my brothers had to learn.
Oloye Adeyemon: That was the only language that was available.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: In Miami—
Nathaniel Briggs: In Miami, it became Spanish.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you-you do remember the Cuban crisis was goin’ on during that time.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct. Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, in terms of the schooling, it was segregated, so it was—
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, yeah. [Unintelligible 17:36] example when the Cuban crisis hit. Now, we were bein’ told that my father worked at Miami Beach, and-and he-and he-he thought that, uh, that four-four Cubans walked up and says, “We will work for you for the same price you pay him.” For that-that particular time, if you were smart, you a businessperson, you gonna take four guys over one. So, in that respect, we wound up havin’ to leave Florida years later because you-you couldn’t make a livin’. Because of—
Oloye Adeyemon: Because they were desperate.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and they were willing-they would oftentimes be living in one house—
Nathaniel Briggs: Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and they could work—
Nathaniel Briggs: [Unintelligible 18:15].
Oloye Adeyemon: That was, uh, that—I-I understand. So, but you did have that year experience in Miami, and you can say, uh, you can actually compare it then. So you can compare your first year of junior high school in Miami with what you got in your second year of junior high school in Summerton. How did—you-you said they were very similar.
Nathaniel Briggs: I went through Miami, Summerton, New York City all in, uh, junior high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you didn’t spend long in Summerton before going on to New York.
Nathaniel Briggs: One year.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, how would you compare, since you also had New York, how would you compare your junior high education in Miami, your junior high education in Summerton, and your junior high education in New York?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Miami was, um, was-was pretty good. I think they did a better job at tryin’ to educate, uh, children than what South Carolina did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Why? Was it the resources?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. It was probably resources and it was already a-a-a lotta farmin’ community. It was a community that had financial wealth.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it—right. So, in general, the Dade County school system mighta placed more emphasis on education than Clarendon County, period. Whether you're White or Black.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. But, uh, well, Dade County had, basically, they had more money.
Oloye Adeyemon: More money to work with.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, would you say they also had a greater interest in people having other skills than just farming skills?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Then, perhaps, Clarendon County might have had?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Uh, uh, Clarendon County was basically a farmin’ community. I mean, if you went to college, then you went to, uh, agricultural college.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. ’Cause-’cause, at that time, if I’m not mistaken, I think I understood that county officials had a lot more—that-that the—even in the White schools the monies were not equal that went to different counties. So, if you were from a poor county in South Carolina—
Nathaniel Briggs: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you got less money, period.
Nathaniel Briggs: Period.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then, that money that you got, if it was less, than-than the bulk of it would go to the Whites. So, in Dade County, they had more money to work with.
Nathaniel Briggs: Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: And it-it-[unintelligible 20:24] than just havin’-havin’ more money, period. But, also, uh, it probably would not have been the same in, would you say, in counties in Florida and [unintelligible 20:32] probably would not have spent as much money—
Nathaniel Briggs: Probably have the same setup as [unintelligible 20:37] County.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. How did those two compare to New York?
Nathaniel Briggs: New York was a-was basically a-an-an experience coming from the-the rural South. Um, New York had a lot to offer. They had more, uh, integrated, uh, teachin’, um, than what Florida had. Um, New York had more money to spend on-on children, um.
Oloye Adeyemon: What school did you go to in New York?
Nathaniel Briggs: [Unintelligible 21:08]
Oloye Adeyemon: The junior high. The junior high.
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Jefferson Park Junior High. On the-on the Spanish side of Harlem.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What street?
Nathaniel Briggs: 102nd Street on Lexington and Park Avenue. That-that’s called Spanish Harlem at that particular time. But that was a cultural experience comin’ from South Carolina to New York too.
Oloye Adeyemon: How much Spanish did you learn there in Miami?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, very little. Very-very little.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughter 21:37] but you learned some when you got to New York.
Nathaniel Briggs: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: No?
Nathaniel Briggs: Never didn’t 21:41 required Spanish. I got to New York. When I got to New York the-the-it was Russian and I forgot the second one. But it-it changed. But here’s a Black guy gotta speak French, Spanish, and Russian.
Oloye Adeyemon: So did you find, uh, so, you know, you said you didn’t learn a lotta Spanish, so I take it then that you were inter-interactin’ with African American children. You weren’t interactin’ that much with the Hispanic children.
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, for-movin’ to New York from, the-the-the neighborhood was probably 70 percent Spanish.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now did you, you went to school on Lexington.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: You lived west of that.
Nathaniel Briggs: No. No. We lived, at-at that particular time, right 107th Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where was the school?
Nathaniel Briggs: 102nd Street.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. I see. So you really were in Spanish Harlem. But there were enough African American children that you didn’t—or did you associate with Hispanic children just—
Nathaniel Briggs: Both. Uh, it-it was, uh, it was, uh, a cultural experience to-to-to associate with-with just White, Black, Spanish, Jamaicans, were just so 22:45—
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. But you-you, you know, it wasn’t an issue about speaking Spanish.
Nathaniel Briggs: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: At that time.
Nathaniel Briggs: No. No.
Oloye Adeyemon: So did you feel differently yourself about school as a result of the Negro experience?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I did, but it-it took-took some while, after—didn’t want to leave South Carolina as a-as as kid. And-and movin’ again.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it because it was home or just not wantin’ to move?
Nathaniel Briggs: Well, it was home and I-I-I-I-I-I got to knew some of the, uh, as a kid growing up you-you get-you got to know-knew friends. But living in Florida and living in New York City is just hard to know friends. Um, but—
Oloye Adeyemon: And it wasn’t as close. Close-knit community in New York. It’s not as close-knit as Summerton either as well.
Nathaniel Briggs: No. No. New York was never close. They’re still not close. And just, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: So in-in-in the case of, um, of Summerton, it was more family.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So—
Nathaniel Briggs: I found in Summerton and a little-little bit in Florida that the teacher really care. And I didn’t find-I didn’t find that closeness in New York. Maybe just very few teachers that really, really cared.
Oloye Adeyemon: You didn’t have, they didn’t know your family and they weren’t from the neighborhood. They didn’t go to church with you.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, but you did feel—did you feel that you had more education opportunities? Did you feel that it’s way more encouraged by the environment?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. I-I thought New York offered more if-if my parents didn’t have to work all-all the time to-to-to-to point you to more direction.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. ’Cause you didn’t get a lot of that from the teachin’ now.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So-so, was it a culture shock coming to, uh, New York, even though you had been in Miami, and-and had contact, uh, you had lived in an African American community.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So was-what was that like coming to New York?
Nathaniel Briggs: Well it wasn’t afri-afri-wasn’t an African American community anymore. Um, I-I found out that coming to South Carolina with, they call it the language of the Geechee or the language of the Gullah people. Well, the-the Black kids didn’t wanna sit with me either. They-they-they-the Jamaicans thought I was Jamaican. And the Spanish thought I was some-somebody else, so—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, at that time, you had that accent.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: That South Carolina accent from the coastal area.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your father spoke that way too?
Nathaniel Briggs: No. He really didn’t. You know, maybe ’cause you grew up with people who speak, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Neither your mother nor your father?
Nathaniel Briggs: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: But it was common in Summerton at that time.
Nathaniel Briggs: Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, so I understand that-that was a challenge, uh, did that affect you initially in the school? Were you-was—did it affect you-your attention and your-your-your—
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Because—
Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 25:41]
Nathaniel Briggs: - your-you-you tend to be anti-social and withdrawn because when you speak people laugh and people giggle. And make little talks. So that-that kinda [unintelligible 25:50] sets you back. You don’t wanna speak when you got thoughts to be said. In that respect it-it hurt.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, as you stayed in New York long, were you adjusted to that?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Because I-I became the in-crowd, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you-did you have much, uh, you-you said the teachers, uh, were not, uh, as—didn’t take as much time with you. Didn’t encourage you as much. Uh, were there guidance counselors that were encouraging students to do well and go onto college? What-what-what did-did-did-did you find much encouragement as a-as an African American child from the school in terms of you reaching your full potential as a student?
Nathaniel Briggs: It probably was there, but it-it just, it never did—they just didn’t reach out you as much as-as-as was done in, uh, in Scotch Branch in South Carolina. Uh, um, there was a different channel of-of, uh, of-of puttin’ you in-in the school system. Um, in-in-in New York City they channeled you into—
Oloye Adeyemon: Certain classes.
Nathaniel Briggs: - certain schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: Certain schools.
Nathaniel Briggs: Certain schools. I-I-if you wasn’t an A student, then you didn’t go to a A high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Nathaniel Briggs: They channeled you in-in-in-in-in my case, in-in-in two high schools that-that, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Two different high schools.
Nathaniel Briggs: Well, that you had to choose from. You-you couldn’t choose this high school—
Oloye Adeyemon: In your neighborhood. Necessarily.
Nathaniel Briggs: Some of the better high schools in-in New York City, which is [unintelligible 27:30], you couldn’t go to a particular high school. They put you into.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were not able to go to those high schools, or you were?
Nathaniel Briggs: I was not able to go to high schools of-of my choice. Uh, most of the Black and Spanish kids was putted in-into a lesser high school in New York City.
Oloye Adeyemon: Which one did you go to, which ones did you go to?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, it was Benjamin Franklin High School, which is 116th Street and, uh, Franklin D. Roosevelt, uh, Drive.
Oloye Adeyemon: So was that the neighborhood school?
Nathaniel Briggs: No. At the time we lived in the Bronx. But they all channeled you into regions of a high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Nathaniel Briggs: For the city.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what was the second high school? Was the second the one you graduated from?
Nathaniel Briggs: No. The Ben Franklin is-is—
Oloye Adeyemon: So you only went to one high school.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And—
Nathaniel Briggs: But there was better choice of high schools that—
Oloye Adeyemon: That you—
Nathaniel Briggs: - I wanted to go to, but they wouldn’t allow me to go.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. When you were going through, uh, high school, later years, uh, did you ever think about, ’cause I’m—when-when did you graduate?
Nathaniel Briggs: 1966.
Oloye Adeyemon: So the schools is Summerton are just beginning to integrate. Were you ever going back and forth during the summer or other times, and were you aware of what was going on in the schools in Summerton?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, I wasn’t aware ’cause when I go back it’s summertime, I stayed with my grandmother, uh, I never wanted to leave Summerton because I-I was comfortable there. I felt the language I speak, I was comfortable with the people, well I never wanted to leave. So e-every other summer, sometimes every summer, I went back and stayed.
Oloye Adeyemon: But you’re not really, uh, you weren’t that aware at the time of what was going on. But you know that it was different. You knew that it-it’s much different.
Nathaniel Briggs: It was different. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: But, are you saying that you not only missed Summerton, but that you didn’t really have a problem with the education that you’d been receiving in Summerton?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, Summerton started to change, uh, probably in the-in the early ‘70s, where some of the Black kids went to the-to the White high school. Uh, I can’t really remember what particular year. Uh, more activities [unintelligible 29:49]. Still segregated Black schools took place. None-none of the White kids came before.
Oloye Adeyemon: But-but going back even a little earlier, while you’re in high school, for the most part, it’s still segregated.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, I guess, my question is, you now are in New York.
Nathaniel Briggs: But it’s segregated because people want it to be. Y-y-you know, it wasn’t laws passed, but W-W-White people n-still didn’t send they—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it the case that, um, it wasn’t actually enforced until the ‘60s? I think around ’65 the first Black child went to Summerton High.
Nathaniel Briggs: Probably so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because the courts had been resisting and Whites had been finding different ways to [unintelligible 30:28]. So-so, I guess, my question is, you’ve gotten-you’ve gotten adjusted. You now are comfortable in New York. Uh, if you had had to go back to Summerton for some reason during your high school years, all of a sudden. For family reasons. Would you have minded being in the Summerton schools there?
Nathaniel Briggs: I wanted to go back. Um, and stay with my grandmother to finish high school. But my parents thought, and I wanted and I pleaded. And we couldn’t go. And-and they thought because-because their name and what-by what happened to me, they-they didn’t allow me to go back and-and go to high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Did they feel that you would get a better educa-better education in New York?
Nathaniel Briggs: I-I didn’t think that they didn’t-that they didn’t in particularly care which-which school system.
Oloye Adeyemon: It was because of your name that—
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. [unintelligible 31:21]
Oloye Adeyemon: Were you the only of your brother’s and sister’s that wished that they could have been in Summerton?
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, well, again, my three older family members, and my kid brother and my sister, they graduated from Scotch Branch High School in South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: And did they leave? Or did they leave [crosstalk 31:41]
Nathaniel Briggs: Oh, oh, they-they left as soon as they, like everybody else.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now I’m tryin’ to get a sense of something. Was that because of the opportunities you had, work opportunities in other words, or was it because they didn’t want to be in Summerton? I guess what I’m asking if the opportunities are good enough.
Nathaniel Briggs: They would have stayed.
Oloye Adeyemon: They would have stayed.
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, but there’s, since it’s a farmin’ community, and you-you’re a-a-a youngster that’s 18 years old, you don’t wanna farm. You don’t wanna work on the farm. So you-your idea is actually the big city 32:14
Oloye Adeyemon: But is it true that people still felt strongly about home? About Summerton [fading voice 32:25]
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. I—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 32:27] itself.
Nathaniel Briggs: I think very few people wanted to leave Summerton. As-as you grow up, but, I mean, you become, uh, uh, your late teens, and you look around Summerton there’s no, basically, the jobs is farmin’. You know, you’re gonna work on a farm. And who wants to do that? So.
Oloye Adeyemon: What percentage would you say of Summerton during that time, what percentage of-of the city was Black?
Nathaniel Briggs: Probably about 65 percent, 70 percent.
Oloye Adeyemon: If you include the rural areas, what percentage?
Nathaniel Briggs: Probably about 80 percent.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, and-and-and many of the families were interrelated, and connected to each other.
Nathaniel Briggs: Sure. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you-it was really a close-knit community.
Nathaniel Briggs: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would you say that the-the-the close-knitness was part of what people were reluctant to leave?
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah. Because there’s the fear factor that one-once you leave the family, you know, you-you-you basically, you come to New York, you’re basically on your own. And that-that family protection’s not there anymore.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you find that people from South Carolina that came to New York sought each other out and helped each other [unintelligible 33:39]
Nathaniel Briggs: Sure. It just-just-just natural instict, uh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though they might not be in the same neighborhood.
Nathaniel Briggs: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Fading voice 33:45]. So, looking back at this, you know, looking back at the whole thing, um, do you feel—well, you-you directly didn’t, uh, fully participate in it, but do you feel that the children with—that the education system in Summerton is, that are number one, and, you know, desegregation, how do you feel about the segregation?
Nathaniel Briggs: Now? Now? Uh, I-I feel, on a whole, it’s a good thing for America It was coming to that point sooner or later. It just happened to arrive pretty s—what, now, 50 years ago.
Oloye Adeyemon: Well it didn’t just happen. I mean, your father, another brave person, took some steps that made that happen.
Nathaniel Briggs: Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, do you think it just would have happened on its own anyhow? Or do you think it would have taken somebody taking steps-steps to-to make-make, you know, a statement? To actually challenge it.
Nathaniel Briggs: I-I-I think after World War II, um, the brave women and men came to their senses in the sense of, um, if it can happen in the military it can happen out here in-in the social, uh, world. And that they banded together to make changes. Um, what’s the second question again?
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you feel that the education has—what are the changes that you see as a result of this case, in terms of education, and also in terms of segregation? Segregation. What-what are-what are some of the benefits? Because the case affected both. It affected the education system and it affected segregation.
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, it-it had benefited because I think now let’s make people free-it should make people free. Uh, to-to make changes in life. To-to live with each other. Some-some of the problem with, uh, being too, uh, segregate a community that you tend to enjoy your new rights, uh, to integrate into somebody else’s sis-society and lose, uh, perspective of your own. Uh, I mean, you-you just into ownership as far as hotels and banks and institution, well, as soon as you just right the column that you can go there and be a free citizen, then you tend to not develop your own. Now that’s the problem. That, um, that the lawyers and NACP and-and the folks of Goodwill never educated the-the folks to do.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you feel that the Black colleges suffered as a result of that?
Nathaniel Briggs: Of course it-they did. Um, uh, I would think by now, um, you had a sense of pride that you went to South Carolina State or Morris College or-or Benedict Allen University, [unintelligible 37:00] or Voorhees College in the state of South Carolina that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where is Voorhees College?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, in South Carolina. I think it was around Denmark in South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 37:11]
Nathaniel Briggs: No. No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Another college you mentioned I wasn’t familiar with, Morris College.
Nathaniel Briggs: Morris College. It’s in Sumpter, South Carolina. And, uh, it’s a [unintelligible 37:24] called Allen-Allen University.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 37:25]
Nathaniel Briggs: Um, those was places that you looked upon going. I mean, you was-you-you didn’t thought about going to University of South Carolina or-or Clinton. You know, it didn’t enter your mind. But the pride of puttin’ your foot on-on a South Carolina State comp-campus is-is mindblowin’. So you go to Harvard, well you can go to South Carolina State, you know? That pride was there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Anyway, the pride of the teachers as well.
Nathaniel Briggs: [Crosstalk 37:52]. Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: The professors.
Nathaniel Briggs: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So your chil-you have children that have gone through the school system.
Nathaniel Briggs: Here in Teaneck, that’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: It was not only the south that had segregation. The north, many times, was because of neighborhoods.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, do you see both north and south as still being a challenge for White and Black children to get the same education?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, the challenge is-is equal education. You-you-it-it-I think personally if-if the White and Black and Spanish and the-the-and the immigrants that came to America, know more about the African history and the White history that struggle together here in this country, would have been a better society. But I-I don’t see that’s comin’. I-I see the—
Oloye Adeyemon: What’s the pro-what’s the-what’s the problem? What’s the obstacle?
Nathaniel Briggs: Well, if it’s a-it’s a public education, the pull is-is to pri-to-to privatize schools. I don’t think a private school will wanna teach, um, uh, African and White history in they class. Or—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 39:08] hasn’t White history always been taught? Isn't it the African history that’s been missing?
Nathaniel Briggs: Well, yeah. I-I mean, I-I-the White side of history. Maybe the-the side I’m lookin’ at, maybe the side that the Quakers took. Uh, being more, uh, sympathetic to the-to the slave’s struggle here in America.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you think there’s any value to there being a-a place in the record for, uh, the White side of it that the Southerners had? Do you think that it would be helpful, say, in Summerton, if Black people knew how Whites were thinking at that time? Woulda made it-made them act like the way they do?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, yeah. Um, but who-who-who-who-who would write that history? I mean, those-those who-who control the power seems to put that type of history on us, how people think. Uh, it would be nice to know the other side of-of-of-of the coin. N-not just the segregated side.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I know, I’m saying-I’m saying that—I guess what I’m saying is that you-you mentioned that today students don’t really know what happened.
Nathaniel Briggs: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: In Summerton. Um, do you feel that there would be any benefit in the Black students in Summerton knowing what your father did? As well as them knowing what Elliott did and why. And the White students learn, because the Black students need-need, obviously, to know about, um, Briggs doing what he did to change the condition that Black students had to go to school under. And I’m sure that there are White students who today are told about why Clarendon Hall was opened as a private school, why they were pulled out of—I’m saying children need to even be hearing that.
Uh, wha-wha-what happened, why-why they formed the school. But, I don’t think that the White children are hearing about the Briggs case. And I guess what I’m asking is, uh, as the African perspective, African American perspective of things becomes part of America’s story, uh, the story that’s often told, even to Whites about White history, is only an aspect of it. And, I guess what I’m asking is, do you feel that—is it important that people come, White and Black, come together in Summerton? And do you think it can happen without the Whites being able to tell that point of view that caused them to resist integrating?
Nathaniel Briggs: Uh, I-I think America’s at this impasse that-that the truth needs to be told.
Oloye Adeyemon: Regardless.
Nathaniel Briggs: Regardless. And-and to go on with the next hundred years, um, the-the pride on both sides, the, um, but the truth need to be told. And I’m hoping that with the project that-that the young lawmen will have tells some of this truth. Um, ’cause it’s very important to the, not the next one, the two generations behind us. Know, uh, uh, somethin’ about the American need to know. Um, for too long I think that the, okay, it’s your pride and my-my pride, but it’s left there and it’s-it’s this winding road that you take your road, and I take ours, and it’s still 50 years later at-at this still impasse. I-I think s-somehow that need to be told.
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, thank you for contributing today. And I certainly hope, as you do, that this project will make a difference in that area.
Nathaniel Briggs: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you for your time.
Description
Nathaniel attended Scott’s Branch School through most of elementary school moving to Miami, Florida for two years followed by a return to Summerton/Scott’s Branch School for one school year (1961-1962). This interview provides keen insight into the life of an original plaintiff’s son and the challenges faced by family members following the filing of Briggs v. Elliott.
Date Created
08/01/2001
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