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Oral History Interview with Shirley Bulah Stamps
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[Pause 00:00 - 00:10]
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown vs. Board oral history collection, New Castle County, Delaware, school segregation/desegregation interviews, interviewee Mrs. Shirley Barbara Bulah Stamps, interviewer Oloye Adeyemon for the National Parks Service. Interview conducted at the Delaware Historical Society in Wilmington, Delaware, on August 16th, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown vs. Board Oral History Project, funded by the National Parks Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown vs. Board of Education National Historic Site oral-history project. Mrs. Stamps?
Shirley Stamps: Yes?
Oloye Adeyemon: What is your full name?
Shirley Stamps: My full name is Shirley Barbara Bulah Stamps.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthdate?
Shirley Stamps: Thirtieth of January, 1944.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?
Shirley Stamps: In Wilmington, Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: And w-what is-what is-uh, what’re your parents’ names?
Shirley Stamps: Fred and Sarah 01:23 Bulah.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was your mother’s maiden name?
Shirley Stamps: Canard 01:26.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were they both born in Wilmington, Delaware, as well?
Shirley Stamps: No. They were not.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where was your father born?
Shirley Stamps: My father was, uh, born in Fredericks, Virginia.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your mother?
Shirley Stamps: In Canard, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what—did you have brothers and sisters?
Shirley Stamps: I was adopted.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, and what did your father and mother do for a living?
Shirley Stamps: My father worked at the vulcanized-fiber company in Yorklyn, uh, Delaware, and my mother was a-a homemaker.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell the name of the company that your father worked for?
Shirley Stamps: Yorklyn?
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, it was in Yorklyn?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the name of the company?
Shirley Stamps: Yorklyn Fiber Company.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, okay. And what did he do there?
Shirley Stamps: He was, um, a fire engineer, where he stoked the fires for the [fading voice 02:25].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what’d your mother do?
Shirley Stamps: She, uh, was a homemaker. Uh, they both—uh, we lived on a farm. It was called a truck farm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Shirley Stamps: And so we had all various types of fruits, vegetables and, uh, poultry, meats, uh, and—
Oloye Adeyemon: So your parents owned their own land?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And so in addition to your father’s livelihood, you also had produce that you sold?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you sell it yourself, or did you sell it to someone else who sold it?
Shirley Stamps: We had a community, uh, in Belvidere, uh, Delaware that we went h-uh, house to house, home to home—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Shirley Stamps: - and they could put—uh, buy the-the various eggs and chickens and fowls.
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause you had all of that.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow. That’s great. So how far was this Belvidere community from where you lived?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, approximately 10 miles.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, so you did not live inside of Hockessin?
Shirley Stamps: No, not this point.
Oloye Adeyemon: You lived near it?
Shirley Stamps: I lived near it.
Oloye Adeyemon: And was Belvidere a community that was as close to you as Hockessin was?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, no, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: How far was Belvidere, again?
Shirley Stamps: That was—I would still say it’s, uh, approximately 10 miles to—
Oloye Adeyemon: And how far was Hockessin?
Shirley Stamps: Two miles.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Uh, what—were there other Blacks that lived in the area of Hockessin, in that-in that general vicinity?
Shirley Stamps: In-in Hockessin themselves, we lived, uh, all around Italian people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, in that rural area that you lived in?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Uh, what church did you attend?
Shirley Stamps: Chippey Chapel AUMP Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: What kind of—uh, was A—
Shirley Stamps: African Union Methodist Protestant Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, A—and initials were?
Shirley Stamps: AUMP.
Oloye Adeyemon: AUMP. And, uh, where was that located?
Shirley Stamps: In Hockessin.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What did-what did you do for a living? What do you do for a living?
Shirley Stamps: I’m sorry?
Oloye Adeyemon: What do you-what-what li-what do you do for a living?
Shirley Stamps: I-I used to work up until a couple week—uh, months ago at Delaware State Hospital at the forensic—as a security attendant.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And before that?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, before that, uh, I worked at—in New York and, uh, in Germany when, uh, my husband was stationed in Germany. I worked, uh, at what was called a Lebkuchen factory, which was—is the gingerbread factory.
Oloye Adeyemon: Ah. So he was there with the-with the armed forces?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Did you—uh, were-were you involved in the ministry? I had asked about the church because I was told that you-you were involved in the ministry.
Shirley Stamps: Yes, I’m an ordained, uh, elder in our, uh, Conference of the African Union Methodist Protestant Church and Connection, which, uh, is under the auspices of the Most Reverend Dr. Delbert L. Jackson—is our presiding prelate.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. And what, uh, area of the country does that cover?
Shirley Stamps: That covers from, uh, New York State down to Washington, D.C.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And, um, have you had your own church, or do you go from church to church?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, I have pastored—
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Shirley Stamps: - at various churches.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: I’m now associate minister.
Oloye Adeyemon: At what church?
Shirley Stamps: At, uh, St. John’s African Union Methodist Protestant Church in Chester, Pennsylvania, 711A 06:12 [unintelligible 06:13] states.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, and—but you live here in-in Wilmington?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And, uh, how long has it been that you’ve been, uh, you know, ordained—how many years?
Shirley Stamps: I was, uh, ordained originally in 1980 in the Baptist Church under the Baptist Church itself in New York City.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Shirley Stamps: And when I-I came back this direction and lived in Delaware—and, uh, then I re-came into—19, um, 80, uh, 7, uh, became into—as far as bein’ ordained—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - as a deacon, uh, which is associate pastor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. And in the Baptist Church, you were ordained where?
Shirley Stamps: In, uh, Lovely Hill Baptist Church—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - in Brooklyn, New York.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you were ordained as a—
Shirley Stamps: As-uh, as an elder.
Oloye Adeyemon: As an elder. Okay. Uh, what, um, was it like growing up in the rural area, and how did, you know, the neighbors treat you? What was it like growing up during those—
Shirley Stamps: Well, as I said, I lived around predominantly Italians. We—uh, my mother and father rented to other people, and our next-door neighbor, um, was African-Americans. And, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, he rented—he had property on his land—
Shirley Stamps: Yes, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that he rented? Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: Yes, yes. And then he also, um, sold lots ’cause we had quite a lot of acreage.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you happen to know how many acres he owned in the beginning?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, I would just estimate about three or four acres—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - if not more.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. What was it like? What was it-what was that part of your life like?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, very nice, calm, peaceful. Uh, bein’ in the country, um, would go out, go on my bike—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - and, um, go up and down the roads. Wasn’t as hazardous as it is today. Um, I had my friends. Um, uh, [crosstalk 08:34]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, but both white and Black-Black friends?
Shirley Stamps: I’m sorry?
Oloye Adeyemon: Both white and Black friends?
Shirley Stamps: Both white and Blacks, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And people got along?
Shirley Stamps: I got along with, um, them very well—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - considerin’.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your family did?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when you say, uh, “considering,” considering what?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, considerin’, uh, the situation of the court decision—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - which, uh, a lot of the Blacks did not understand—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - uh, and thought, um, the phrase was because—uh, my parents, uh, statin’ that because I was light, they were sayin’ that they thought I was white. And that was not the case.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But the majority of ’em still treated me very well—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - and like that 09:22—
Oloye Adeyemon: So you’re saying that not all Blacks were in favor of the—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Many of ’em felt—what-what do you think their opposition—the Blacks that-that you—
Shirley Stamps: Threatened.
Oloye Adeyemon: They felt threatened?
Shirley Stamps: I believe they just felt threatened. They didn’t understand. I say it this way. Uh, when you don’t understand somethin’, you get a little fearful.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And I—
Oloye Adeyemon: Were they fearful of-of reprisals from right—whites, or they—what wa-what was it they were afraid of?
Shirley Stamps: They just wanted things to be—
Oloye Adeyemon: The way they had been?
Shirley Stamps: - the—yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they thought that you and your parents were tryin’ to change things?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Uh, mm, what—did you also—looking back at it, were you also surprised that the whites were not upset—’cause I’m—I understand, you know, things were pretty peaceful. So that means that-that they-they didn’t resent it, either—
Shirley Stamps: I never had any problems. Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: - ’cause there were so many whites in the state that were really upset about it.
Shirley Stamps: Correct, correct. Uh, the community themselves, if they thought of anything, they kept it to themselves, mainly.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: I—when I did change schools, I didn’t have what you call any real, major problems at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So the—as a child—now, you had indicated to me before we started the interview that you were legally blind—that you are legally blind.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: How long has that been?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, since, um, December.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, so this is something recent?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, definitely.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Uh, so your childhood was pretty happy with all of that.
Shirley Stamps: Oh, yes. Oh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Were you aware of segregation—’cause many of the people that grew up here in Wilmington were very much aware of things bein’ segregated. Living in that community, were you really aware of it? Did you see it or have to deal with segregated conditions a lot—not-not talkin’ ’bout the schools now but just your everyday life.
Shirley Stamps: Understand. Everyday life, uh, was not aware of it because I had a happy child, uh, existence—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - because of bein’ around a multi, uh, racial and a religious, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - background as far as dealin’ with people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right, and there were-and there were no facilities right there in the country that were segregated?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Did the families, the white families and the Black families, visit each other in that community?
Shirley Stamps: To visit?
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they visit each other?
Shirley Stamps: We didn’t visit that often. Um, as time went on, of course, we visit as far as knowin’ the people, whatever.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But my mother was not the type that just was a visitor, per se.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But we-we knew of the different ones. We had Italians that would come over, and, um, especially because we had quite a lotta land and everything. And knowin’ that they have certain ethnical, uh, type of, um, uh, eating situations like dandelions and things like that, they did come over and ask, could they pick the dandelions and things like this.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So—and-and-and you-you called it a truck farm because it was not a real, real big farm, but it was big enough for you to grow vegetables and sell ’em?
Shirley Stamps: I—it’s called a truck farm because we had various, uh, animals. We had various fruits. We had various, um, vegetables.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And it was a multi [crosstalk 12:47]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But it was not—was it-was it—did you have people working, or was it something the family worked?
Shirley Stamps: No, just family.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it was-it was kinda small-kinda small farm.
Shirley Stamps: Yes, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, growing up, did you assist with that? Did you—were you out planting and-and harvesting?
Shirley Stamps: Well, we had fun. You know, I would get all on, uh, the back of the, uh, flatbed, we would call it—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - where the horse would just flatten out before we got our-our tractor and things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: But you weren’t actually required to do farm work?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, no, no, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Shirley Stamps: I had—um, when I became a teenager, I had rabbits, and they were mine.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay.
Shirley Stamps: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were these purchased or—
Shirley Stamps: I went from 5 to 200. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Hundred? How many?
Shirley Stamps: Went from 5 to 200. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Two hundred rabbits?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did you happen to get them? I mean, was this somethin’ that you di—went out and bought?
Shirley Stamps: I-um, I, um, wanted to do it. Uh, my parents said fine. Um, we started out with just a coop, and then my father takin’ one of the chicken houses and converted it into, uh, a rabbit house because you had to get—
Oloye Adeyemon: How did you get—
Shirley Stamps: - uh, different home—you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How’d you get the first rabbit that you started with?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, to tell the truth, I—at this time, I don’t really remember.
Oloye Adeyemon: Could you sell rabbits after you—
Shirley Stamps: Yes. And then, uh, we had so many that, um, we were contracted as far as the, uh, lab-a laboratory [crosstalk 14:09].
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow. And this-this started off as being your own personal project?
Shirley Stamps: Yes. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow. [Laughter] Were there other things that you, you know, were involved in with the family that you think really stand out? Uh, I-I got the feeling from, you know, what was said to me and, I guess, what you said as well that your family was very, uh, religious.
Shirley Stamps: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Very active?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, um—
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: So that was something that kind of has stayed with you, but it was somethin’ that was instilled in you at an early age.
Shirley Stamps: Oh, yes. I—um, my mother was a-a superintendent of Sunday School, uh, and my father go to church quite frequently. His work, uh, uh, caused him not to go all—every Sunday, and I taught Sunday School. I taught at the age of 11, uh, teenagers—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Shirley Stamps: - and, um, very active in Vacation Bible School—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - and, uh, in the choir, in the senior choir and all.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, w—how aware of you—how aware were-were you of what was happening before the decision was made that sent you to Hockessin School? Were—was that something that you were—how old were you at the time ’cause it was elementary school. How old were you when you went to the white school for the first time?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, eight, goin’ on nine.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, and where had you gone before that?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, a Black school that was next to our church.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what was that school called? Do you remember?
Shirley Stamps: I believe that was Hockessin 105.
Oloye Adeyemon: 105. And, uh, the name of the church again was?
Shirley Stamps: Chippey Chapel African Union Methodist Protestant Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where was it located in Hock—
Shirley Stamps: Hockessin, Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what—do you remember the street that it was on?
Shirley Stamps: On, um, uh-on Miller Road—Mill Road.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, on Miller Road?
Shirley Stamps: Miller Road.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, Hock-Hockessin itself is a very small community. It’s somewhat—at least at that time was somewhat rural in itself, wasn’t it?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And so this school was next to the church?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And, uh, how, uh, many grades did this school cover? What-what grade did it start, and what grade—
Shirley Stamps: First through sixth with one teacher.
Oloye Adeyemon: With one single teacher?
Shirley Stamps: One single teacher, Ms. Bojean 16:41.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that was all that it covered was six grades?
Shirley Stamps: First to sixth grades. That’s—uh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s it. And what was her name?
Shirley Stamps: Ms. Bojean.
Oloye Adeyemon: How you spell that? Do you know that? Bo-Bojean?
Shirley Stamps: Bojean.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Shirley Stamps: [Fading voice 16:54]
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and so she had been your teacher up until the time you were eight years old?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: And after that, you then went to Hockessin Elementary School?
Shirley Stamps: Yep. Uh, Hockessin, that was the—a school that was on a hill, which was 29. It was called, um, School 29.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that the white school?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, School 29. And, now, what did you think about—well, first of all, did you know that this was going to happen before it was time for you to go to the school? How much beforehand had you known, and were you prepared for it when it happened?
Shirley Stamps: I knew about it because of—it’s just like yesterday. I was going—uh, my mother’s talking about me going. Uh, she was trying to get me on the bus—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - to go—uh, just to go on the store and then get off at the corner and just walk down the, uh, two—three blocks, as to say, uh, to the, uh, school. And I known because of her talkin’ to me concernin’, uh, the situation, and know that when she called, uh, the bus company and they said, um, there’s no way that I could go on the bus and go to that school that I—
Oloye Adeyemon: Didn’t believe it?
Shirley Stamps: Did I believe it?
Oloye Adeyemon: They didn’t believe it when she called the—
Shirley Stamps: They didn’t believe it. That—
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though it was the law, they didn’t know about it?
Shirley Stamps: They didn’t know anything about it. They-they—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was this a school bus that she was calling?
Shirley Stamps: It was—yes, this is the school bus that went right by our door every—
Oloye Adeyemon: And that was one of the reasons that this whole thing got started because—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - up until this time, you were not getting to ride this bus.
Shirley Stamps: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you wouldn’t have been goin’ to that school.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So when she called, they knew nothin’ about it. They didn’t believe it. Did they come and pick you up anyhow? How did she get them—
Shirley Stamps: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did she convince them?
Shirley Stamps: Uh, she s—uh, the person on the other end said, um, “We cannot transport her to—from her home to drop her off to go to her school. The only way is if she went to that school.” And my mother said, “Then she’s goin’ to go to that school.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, now I understand. You’re talking about your memory of what led to the case.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, you’re-you’re going back further than I was. Okay, so you remember your mother trying to get you on the school bus not to go to the white school but just so you wouldn’t have to travel so far to your own school—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - because you live in the country; you don’t live inside the town.
Shirley Stamps: No, but it still wasn’t what you’d consider country-country. It was just two miles fa—
Oloye Adeyemon: I mean, you lived on a farm.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, but I’m still sayin’ it’s—
Shirley Stamps: Oh, yes, definitely [crosstalk 19:39].
Oloye Adeyemon: - it’s a-it’s a distance.
Shirley Stamps: Yes, to my house.
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and other children are able to wa—ride the bus, the white chil—and so—
Shirley Stamps: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you remember when she made the phone call—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and the people were saying that they would not provide you with transportation because your school did not have that service.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though everybody’s payin’ taxes, the service is only being provided to the white children.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: After that happened, what did your mother say, or what did she do? Did she say anything to the family, and then what did she do?
Shirley Stamps: Well, she was just stating that, um, she wanted to go into Wilmington to see about a lawyer.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And we always went into town on Wednesdays, and—
Oloye Adeyemon: F-for what purpose?
Shirley Stamps: To shop.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: To shop.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Shirley Stamps: We had our everyday different things that we done-had done. And so this, uh, one day she-uh, she went into town, and she asked, uh, uh, the, uh, parkin’ attendant or someone, uh, as far as lawyers in the town.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And at that time there were two lawyers with the last name of Redding. And they, uh, had told her since there’s a white lawyer named Redding and there’s a Black lawyer named Redding, and—
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause at that time he was the only one in the whole state, if I understand correctly, the only-only Black [crosstalk 21:06], mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: Yes, yes. And so my mother said, uh, where does, uh, Lawyer Redding, the Black lawyer Redding—uh, where is his office at? And they told him, and we went there. Uh, and she talked with him.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were you with her?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: You remember the conversation?
Shirley Stamps: I remember that they had talked, uh, concernin’ her, uh, concerns as far as, uh, me going to school and that they had refused, uh, to pick me up, uh, by the school bus to go to my school. And she said she understood that the only way that I could gotten transportation was to go to the white school, as she had told them—she had told Lawyer Redding that then she would go to the white schools, and she wanted to know how to go about it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And so Lawyer Redding had stated that, when would it be, uh, appropriate for him to come out and talk, uh, with, uh, my father and her concernin’ that?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And they made the time. He came out. Uh, they drew up letters, um, to the board of education and the-the various, um, officials. And, uh, it was sent to these people concernin’ the matters. Also the re—uh, the comment was made by Lawyer Redding as stating that he has started it several times before, and people have backed off. And he told my parents this: “Now, if you don’t mean to go all the way, we won’t start it.” And my mother very adamantly says, “We are going all the way.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So that’s-that’s—I’m glad that you remember as much as you do ’cause that’s very important information. Uh, how did you get into town on Wednesdays?
Shirley Stamps: By car. We had two cars.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So your mother drove?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So when you were going to school, when—before the bus service was provided, did she take you?
Shirley Stamps: Every day.
Oloye Adeyemon: Every day.
Shirley Stamps: She-she’d take me—
Oloye Adeyemon: Back and f—
Shirley Stamps: - and-and-and brought me back home.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you—I understood you to say that Redding drew up these papers and presented them to the school. So before he went to court, before he took them to court, he tried to work it out with the school officials first.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And the school district that he had to deal with, was it—was Hockessin part of the William-Wilmington School District, or did he have to deal with a second school district when he was tryin’ to [crosstalk 23:56]—
Shirley Stamps: It was all mainly, I imagine, the same school district—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - because, uh, the children that was—they got from sixth grade went to a place called A-Allison 24:07 Jones School, which was in Belvidere. And then they went to Howard High School—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - which was in town.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, so the junior high school that Black students in Hockessin went to was Belvi-Belvidere—
Shirley Stamps: Yeah, Allison Jones School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, and that was—
Shirley Stamps: Seventh and eighth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the same community you referred to before, where you’d take fruits and vegetables.
Shirley Stamps: Correct. Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, it was not in the same direction as Wilmington—
Shirley Stamps: No, it was kinda—
Oloye Adeyemon: - from your house. It was in another direction.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: W-what direction was it, and what-what-what—was it toward Newark or toward Pennsylvania?
Shirley Stamps: Well, you would still go the same direction, uh, to go both, but then there’s a fork in the road—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - and on Lancaster Ave. that you would, uh, take the right to go into, uh, Belvidere and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Shirley Stamps: - um, that vicinity.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is Belvidere still there today?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Shirley Stamps: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. But it—so it’s a-it’s a rural community, or is it—it’s a-it’s a village or a town itself?
Shirley Stamps: Well, you consi-consider it, um, a small, um, rural—but still it’s-it’s a community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: It’s a community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were-were there more Blacks in Belvidere than in Hockessin?
Shirley Stamps: At the time, I believe it would be, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay, and so when he went to the school officials, um, do you remember what the next step was after that, what happened after you drew up the papers?
Shirley Stamps: You ha—well, they called my mother, and they wrote her and stated that it was unconstitutional for Blacks and whites to go into the same school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because at that time the law was separate but equal.
Shirley Stamps: Correct, correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what did, uh, Redding do next?
Shirley Stamps: He wrote other, uh, letters, a petition, uh, court type of things, uh, to the chancellor [crosstalk 26:12].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, and then it went-then it—and then the case actually went to court.
Shirley Stamps: Correct. You betcha.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. One of the things that’s unique about this case out of all the cases that became part of the Supreme Court case is that Redding won the case.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Judge Seitz actually ruled in your mother’s favor.
Shirley Stamps: Yes. Chancellor Seitz, uh, who was white—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: We must, uh, remember also, but he knew the law, and he knew of the justice and the injustice that was done.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. So even though the-the le—the law was separate but equal, because it was unequal, Judge Seitz says on—based on that basis, it won’t be separate; she will go to this school.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, that ruling that he made didn’t apply to all Blacks in the state. It applied to you and your—in the Bulah case and to the plaintiffs in the Belton case. So all of the people that it found went to white schools immediately after the trial but not all the Blacks in the state.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: Uh, there were still a lot of hesitation—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - on the Blacks to go. Uh, most of ’em still went to Allison Jones seventh and eighth, but when they changed up, then eventually they went to Alexis I. duPont.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was it like when you went to the white school for the first time?
Shirley Stamps: I can remember like it’s yesterday. Um, Mrs. Vandergriff 27:49, um, welcomed us. My mother was pre—
Oloye Adeyemon: She was the principal?
Shirley Stamps: She was the third-grade, uh, teacher.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, third-grade teacher. You were a third-grader at the time?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And she said, uh, “Shirley, pick out any, uh, desk that you would like to sit at.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: It wasn’t of, “You gettin’ in the back,” or, “You in the front,” or whatever. It’s wherever I would like to sit.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And I chose one, and I sat there, and be very honest with you, I have not had hardly any problems. We had, yeah, you know, little spats or whatever, but nothing compared to goin’ to the all-Black school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Tell me—
Shirley Stamps: And, in fact, I didn’t have that much there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Tell me the difference between the two.
Shirley Stamps: The difference, um—you had a more, let’s say, idea ’cause everybody’s an individual.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And I didn’t have the-uh, the pressure of waitin’ ’til somebody decides to hit you or whatever or call you out of your name type of situation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Betwe-between the students?
Shirley Stamps: Between the students.
Oloye Adeyemon: You’re sayin’ that—
Shirley Stamps: Uh, I didn’t have any problems up there at all on that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Which place?
Shirley Stamps: At the white school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Had you had problems at the Black school?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Why?
Shirley Stamps: I could not tell you unless—
Oloye Adeyemon: You—was that just general, everybody in the Black school had that problem?
Shirley Stamps: Just-just—not really, not really. Um, it’s just that they loved to fight.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Shirley Stamps: They liked to—uh, after school and whatever.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, so this is not during school. These are things that happened—
Shirley Stamps: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - between the schools, outside of school.
Shirley Stamps: Right. Durin’ school, uh, you had where people—uh, I had a problem with them takin’ my books and things and hidin’ them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Now, was this perhaps a result of you not being in the neighborhood with them and coming from outside of town? Could that’ve had somethin’—
Shirley Stamps: It happened mostly—uh, uh, it could’ve been. I just know that it had happened ever since I was in first grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And it was just one or two, and I knew who they were and that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - they would hide ’em, but they would keep ’em in the desk.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Shirley Stamps: So that wasn’t really, you know—so…
Oloye Adeyemon: So you-you didn’t have this kinda problem at the white school? The students—
Shirley Stamps: Not at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Do you think that that was because their parents had talked to them and urged them to behave and—
Shirley Stamps: I believe so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: Um, we tried to do the very best we can with our children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And what they do in the school is another situation because when you have—where you know that the teacher doesn’t quite, uh, obtain as far as you are concerned, are not—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - really interested, you can see the favoritisms that happens.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But—
Oloye Adeyemon: So you’re saying that perhaps the attitude of the white teacher helped to make things smooth—
Shirley Stamps: That helped as well.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - uh, for me at the time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right, mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: I had no problems with the teachers, never had—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - as far as that’s concerned. I have talked to others that have.
Oloye Adeyemon: Have had, yeah. The—what you’re explaining, uh, is-is-is—
Shirley Stamps: Is for me.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’m glad that you’re explaining it as an individual, and that’s one of the reasons why this is so important because if we were to take the general situation and apply it to your experience, assuming that it’s the same would’ve been wrong because most people did not have a-a pleasant experience.
Shirley Stamps: Correct. Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: What about the teaching itself? How did it compare, the teaching that you—the education that you were receiving in the Black school, where you had one teacher and six grades, and the teaching that you received in the white school?
Shirley Stamps: Well, this—the problem is—with that is that we would try—my parents and other parents would try to instill within that teacher to go—you know, durin’ summertime to get extra classes. She did not do this. And so therefore, I believe that we fell into a-uh, a mold of just same old-same old and not—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - gettin’ enriched in, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. And then, too, it was probably then difficult for teaching six grades, one person.
Shirley Stamps: It might’ve been until—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Shirley Stamps: - we did the-um, the court cases. Then all of a sudden, they decided to get another teacher. They decided to, uh, divide the inside.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: So first and third’d be on one side, and fourth and sixth—they decided to get more playground equipment.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm, mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: They decided to put, um, better bathrooms in—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Shirley Stamps: - uh, water, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: This was an attempt to avoid integration?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But, now, at the white school, the teachers are taking time with you, and they’re treating you the same as the other children?
Shirley Stamps: Correct, yes. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. A-a-and when you, uh, left that school, I understand it remained an all-white school until three years later. It was only with the Supreme Court case—
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that Black students generally in the state started going to white schools.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, w—by the time that that happens, you’re—well, actually, y—let me back up. When you left that school, it was the sixth grade, right, when you left—
Shirley Stamps: I left after I graduated into seventh grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. When you le—graduated in seventh grade, you go to a Black school, or did you continue to go to white schools?
Shirley Stamps: Two days before I was to go to the next school—because, see, after that, we were to go to Richardson Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what—
Shirley Stamps: Richardson Park is—uh, does not take, uh, the Black children—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Shirley Stamps: - at that time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. That’s where the white students were going?
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: What happened with you, with—what’d you—
Shirley Stamps: Two days before school started for me to go into seventh grade, they let my parents know that we were, uh, to go to Alexis I. duPont, which is on, uh, Kenneth, uh, Pike here in Wilmington—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - and that we were to go there to, uh, see how the place—you know, how the school—
Oloye Adeyemon: And that was a white school?
Shirley Stamps: And that was the white school, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Why did they not send you to the white school that the other students from your elementary were going to?
Shirley Stamps: They-they said that they were not going to take any Black children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Now, this is really important. This is somethin’ that you’ve hit on that’s very, very, very important because up until today, I thought from some of the interviews that not only did—what Judge Seitz do caused Black students to start going to, you know, integrated schools. Then I found out later that it was only certain Black students, only the ones that were plaintiffs. But I thought that the plaintiffs continued to go to integrated schools, but I was getting the impression, from what people are saying, that, no, the case only covered those students and only covered those schools. So it only in—covered Hockessin School and Claymont School and only—but what you’re saying is that although his ruling only covered Hockessin School, the decision was made that even though other Black students were going to Black schools, you would not have to return to a Black school as a junior high school student. You would be able to attend the white school as a jun—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though that was not part of the court case?
Shirley Stamps: Correct. You have to also see that Alexis I. duPont was in a special school district. That’s what it was called, in a special school district.
Oloye Adeyemon: What made it special?
Shirley Stamps: I imagine the funds from duPonts. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Ah-hah. [Laughter] I should’ve known that.
Shirley Stamps: And so, therefore, um, the—
Oloye Adeyemon: And they were more progressive [crosstalk 35:49]—
Shirley Stamps: Yes. You had your, uh, Westover Hills children and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - uh, it was, um—it had already integrated.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Shirley Stamps: And so—and they also—uh, not only that—is that, um, going there, uh, we had to be bused still, you understand.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But, um, they didn’t start goin’ until there, as far as ones from Hockessin, until certain ones was in the ninth grade. You had ma—see, my mother would go to the different families in Hockessin and, uh, compel them and ask them to please send their children to the, uh, consolidated school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Shirley Stamps: Okay. [Crosstalk 36:37]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now let me back up just—you’re-you’re-you’re sharing a lotta things, and most of ’em are new. They’re-they’re—it’s not that the subject is new, but the detail—this—you’re clearin’ up some confusion. You left the school, the elementary school—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and went to duPont. Were there other Black students going to duPont when you got there?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, what year would this have been?
Shirley Stamps: [Sighs] Uh, oh, well, it would’ve definitely been, um, in ’56, ’57.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now I understand.
Shirley Stamps: ’56, ’57.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what’s happening is that as far as the Delaware court case is concerned, it only affected you, and it only affected the school that you went to. What you’re being affected by when you go to duPont is the Supreme Court case—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and the Supreme Court case was one that the states were supposed to work on coming up with a plan for. And I understand that some states delayed longer than others and that Delaware, as far as the state was concerned, complied but not the local schools in some cases. duPont was one of those that did.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it was one of the first school districts in the state to be, uh, desegregated, but it wasn’t because of your mother’s original Delaware case. It was because of your mother’s case along with the other cases in the Supreme Court.
Shirley Stamps: Because you have to remember that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Got it.
Shirley Stamps: - we had the decision in ’52.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right, for your—for the Delaware case.
Shirley Stamps: That two years—that’s right, two years—
Oloye Adeyemon: And so—
Shirley Stamps: - before the Supreme Court even—
Oloye Adeyemon: And that was the part of the case where only the plaintiffs in those court cases in Delaware were going to the schools. By the time you reached duPont, students are—it’s still not—the state is not integrated, but certain districts within the state—and duPont was one of ’em, so—
Shirley Stamps: Correct, because my mother com—uh, asked the different families, even after the ’52 one, to come, and eventually they did, certain ones, when their children was of age.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right, because—okay, I understand. So, now, going to this other school, uh, what did you say the name of the school—that many of the students at, um, Ho-Hockessin went to? What was the name of that, the junior high—
Shirley Stamps: Okay. Oh, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that the white students went to?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, you’re talkin’ about, uh, Richardson Park.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Now, Richardson Park was not a school district that had accepted the-the court order—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and so it did no integrate in ’54 as a—uh, ’50—got it. Got it.
Shirley Stamps: Okay. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: So that’s why you didn’t go there.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: But, now it kinda worked out to your advantage because isn’t it the case that the education at the top was exceptional?
Shirley Stamps: Thank you. We had professors there. We had top-notch, uh, um, teachers there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And I can only speak for myself because I’ve talked to others, and they knew of certain ones, uh, that they didn’t—teachers they didn’t get along with, so they sag 40:05.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Shirley Stamps: I had no problems.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Shirley Stamps: - um, and we all are individuals, so therefore, um, what might work for one person might not work for someone else.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But, uh, from 7th to 12th grade was—uh, it’s, uh, what we call the Little 40:22 Castle. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: And that was partly because the duPont company was concerned about having well-educated, um, employees and al-also made the people—
Shirley Stamps: Yes
Oloye Adeyemon: - who worked at the company—their children went there.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm.
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, I understand that duPont—the duPont company spent a lot of its own money on education—
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the Wilmington area.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that was one of the reasons why some of the schools were so much better-equipped than other—’cause Delaware s—was a small state, but it had all—many, many districts.
Shirley Stamps: Correct, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: So then, um, for you personally, uh, not only did you go to wh—did you-did you see the benefits of the case because almost in every other case, the people whose parents did this around the country, they themselves did not see the result of it. It was too much later when the courts found the—
Shirley Stamps: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, you know, forced it to be done that—these students were long gone. So you were one of the few out of all the people who were involved in these cases that actually got to see the result of it. And for what you’re saying, it was positive.
Shirley Stamps: Yes, it was positive. Uh, but we know that history repeats itself.
Oloye Adeyemon: In what way?
Shirley Stamps: Too often, uh, the way, uh, sometimes people still want to go back into bein’ segregated—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - uh, type of thing. And you go—and that’s why they had the charter schools, and they have this, and they have that nowadays.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Shirley Stamps: - uh, trying to better the situations. And I hear time and time again from the parents, and they said that the teachers need to be more, uh, concerned for the pupils.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: So—but as far as when I was going, uh, to school and everything, they had taken the time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: We had a certain amount in each class, and, like I said—like you had mentioned, maybe because it was a duPont school…
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Did your mother live to see the results of her work?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, sure, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. She was very proud, wasn’t she?
Shirley Stamps: Oh, definitely.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. And proud of you.
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it took a lot of courage for both of you, not knowing exactly what to expect that first day of school—
Shirley Stamps: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - because there were other places around the country, as you know probably better than me ’cause you’re-you’re a little older than I am, a few years. And, uh, y-y-you know, but you may have a better memory of some of the strife—
Shirley Stamps: Well, I [crosstalk 43:05]—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that occurred in the integration of the schools in the South.
Shirley Stamps: I thank God that, uh, it wasn’t, like, some of the places like Little Rock—
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Shirley Stamps: - and places like that that had the standoffish type of thing of, you know—
Oloye Adeyemon: But it could’ve been.
Shirley Stamps: Oh, definitely, definitely.
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and I think that—and even in-in Delaware, even—
Shirley Stamps: ’Cause we’re part of a—of the Southern type of, [laughter] you know, ways.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. A—I interviewed, uh, someone today, and he spoke about violence between Blacks and whites in some of the schools.
Shirley Stamps: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it was, uh, you know, I think, a very, uh, courageous thing for you mother to do. What do you think gave her the strength to proceed—uh, let me ask a different way. Did she ever have any doubt that it was gonna work out? Was it-was it ever [crosstalk 43:54]?
Shirley Stamps: I never heard it. I never, uh, felt it. Uh, she’s a very determined person, very independent, per se.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Was she involved in the school once you went to the white school? Was she there wa—
Shirley Stamps: She would go to the PTA meetings and things like this.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so she was active, and she—wha-what she—looking at, um, the schools as a whole, I mean, was she—how to put this? Was she a person that, uh, was concerned about you and your safety, or was she just concerned about school—as a PTA parent, was she just concerned about issues that all the parents were concerned about, you think?
Shirley Stamps: Yes, mostly.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: You know, um, I had been in with the Brownies and, uh, the Girl Scouts and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah, I talked to someone—
Shirley Stamps: Mm-hmm. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: - who was in the Girl Scout troop with you. Was it—
Shirley Stamps: Yeah, in fact, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: - McDermott 44:42?
Shirley Stamps: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: [Crosstalk 44:45]
Oloye Adeyemon: Spoke so hurriedly 44:46. Yeah. And—
Shirley Stamps: Her mother was, uh, the leader.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. So, you know, this is, uh, really a very—it’s not just a good addition to our collection because it’s about Delaware. It’s a good collection—good addition to our collection so that people will not have a stereotypical view of what this was like ’cause you—your story is completely unique out of all the stories that we’ve talked about. And I guess the only question I would ask in closing is, what do you think about the Delaware—Wilmington, Delaware, schools today that are—and-and-and the-and the, uh, consideration of homeschooling or neighborhood schooling, where there’s a good likelihood that a lotta the schools will-will be again, um, almost entirely Black? You know, do you feel that, uh, education—not talkin’ ’bout the integration part now—
Shirley Stamps: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - necessarily, even though in some areas of the country the schools are just as segregated as they were, especially in the big cities. But what do you feel? Uh, do you feel that things have reached their potential? Do you feel there’s still work to be done in this area? And if so, what is it that can make the schools better and make, uh, the racial, uh, harmony—you know, whether it’s in the school or outside of the school because this particular case changed the social life in America, not just the education—
Shirley Stamps: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - so, you know, just your-your thoughts about that, in any-any area that you wanna speak about.
Shirley Stamps: Well, my thoughts are—as this—is that whatever and wherever education is abounding, whether it’s integrated or segregated, Black, white, etcetera, the situation is that good education, solid, uh, good education of the concern of the teacher or pupil should always be abounded so there’ll be a nice harmony and bein’ able to, uh, have that instructor to know exactly where he or she is comin’ from and to be educated themselves into their own, uh, course of bein’, whether it’s in chemistry, English, whatever. Don’t go just give them basics and then leave and it—and just hopin’ that the student is able to comprehend what they’re doin’ but to be that teacher as a teacher should be. Get educated. Get as much education as possible to be able to teach our young ones that’s comin’ up in this world that we see so much strife, so much, uh, hatred, so much crime, so much drugs and things. Teach ’em in the right perspective. The parents should do this.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But when the parents are not doin’ it, the teachers should step in and sayin’, “You are in my class, and this is the way it should be done.” Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And this is in some cases, I take it, in your estimation, not being done, and this has caused a problem?
Shirley Stamps: I believe that today’s teachers are doin’ the best that they can, uh, for the material that they’re given.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: But I’ll also say that a lot of, like, our history is not bein’, uh, factual.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And we learn day by day that certain things that they’re sayin’ are not necessarily true.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And there’s also that when we come into teachin’ people, we need to teach on a more harmony and not harmin’ one another—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - to state that w-we might be all Black, we might be Black and white, we might be whatever color, but we are all God’s children. And I’m—I have to put my religion—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: - right there as sayin’ that without God, we are nothing.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And we have to portray that we are a Christian, uh, country. We say “in God we trust.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Shirley Stamps: And unless we re—believe it and produce it and do it, we’ll be a nation that’s still divided.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you think that there are any—is there any advice that you would give people concerning, um—I-um, I’m realizing we’re over. Um, I’ll-I’ll stop on that note, your-your last word because we-we’re actually over as it is. So that—we’ll cut at that last word—
Shirley Stamps: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - what you said.
Shirley Stamps: You can ask me whatever questions [crosstalk 50:15]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm, no, I-I-I’m realizin’—what happened was the audiotape—
[End of Audio]
Description
Bulah became an ordained elder under the Baptist Church in 1980, and lived abroad for a number of years with her husband who was in the armed forces while also pastoring at a number of churches. Bulah’s interview recounts her experiences as one of the plaintiff of the Bulah v. Gebhart case which would be joined to the Belton v. Gebhart case and later the Brown v. Board of Education case.
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