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Oral History Interview with Leonard Williams
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Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board Oral History Collection. Belton and Bulah versus Gephart Court Case Interviews. Interviewee: Attorney Williams. Interviewer: Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted at the Delaware Historical Society in Wilmington, Delaware on August 9, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historical Site Oral History Collection. Attorney Williams, what is your full name? Leonard Williams: Leonard L. Williams. Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthdate? Leonard Williams: December 11, 1934. Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born? Leonard Williams: Wilmington, Delaware. Oloye Adeyemon: And what were your parents’ names? Leonard Williams: Claudius Thomas Williams and Gertrude, uh, Brisco-Williams. Oloye Adeyemon: And were they also born in Delaware? Leonard Williams: My father was born in Culpepper, Virginia, and my mother was born in Cecil County, Maryland. Oloye Adeyemon: And what did your father want to do for business? Leonard Williams: My father was employed as a worker at Purina Chow, uh, on a night shift here in Wilmington at the Purina plant, and he also operated his own business, uh, as a trucker doing moving and hauling, you know, saddle trucks. And we have a large family, and-and as God—as boys we were able to help and-and work as we came along. Oloye Adeyemon: How many brothers and sisters do you have? Leonard Williams: I have—I’m one of 15 children. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: I’m number three. Oloye Adeyemon: Number three. Leonard Williams: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: And your mother worked as well? Leonard Williams: My mother was basically a housewife, and from time to time, between the babies, she was able to do some domestic work. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And where’d you live growing up? Leonard Williams: I grew up on the west side of town within five minutes of where we are today. Oloye Adeyemon: Which side of Wilmington? Leonard Williams: Tatnal Street. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, now the concentration of blacks in Wilmington was on the east side, correct? Leonard Williams: Yes. Well, the-the area in which I lived was a-was a pocket. Basically, it was a-a location where many of the Jewish or Hebrew businesses were located, um, delicatessens and, um, poultry, meat product places, uh, and-and-and there was a fairly large Jew-Jewish population in the surrounding area of the neighborhood. And, um, I kind of grew up in an area where there—my friends were—were people whose parents owned the corner stores and the bakery or the-or the grocery store, uh, the, uh, poultry store and so forth. Um, a lot of my, uh, associates are people who are in the profession, uh, grew up and the—and-and are in part, at least, the children of some of these people. Oloye Adeyemon: Did that, um, black population have a name? Was it called something [unintelligible 03:19]? Leonard Williams: Just west side. Just the west side. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And do you know how it happened? Which of the two areas was the oldest, uh, area, say, where blacks were concentrated going back to— Leonard Williams: I think that—I think historically the east side was probably the most populated area for blacks, and it probably has a longer history— Oloye Adeyemon: How did— Leonard Williams: - than the— Oloye Adeyemon: - the west side come about? Leonard Williams: Well, the deep west side, um, I think further west than where I grew up, um, there may have been a comparable time—in terms of time, but not size. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, there always had been some blacks in the city. Leonard Williams: Yeah. There were some blacks on the west side and a-but a much larger number on the east side— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Leonard Williams: - and covered a much larger area. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, I appreciate you consenting to do, uh, this interview [unintelligible 04:06] to the Wilmington schools. But, um, you had such a close, uh, relationship with, uh, Attorney Louis Redding, who, um, in 1929, the state became the first, um, African American lawyer to get admitted into the Delaware bar and for a long time was the only one and was involved with the school desegregation places. I thought that we might, um, get a better sense of his life and so on from you. So, uh, if you could, could you, um, share with us first what your connection to Louis Redding? I’ll take notes. Leonard Williams: To give you an honest start, I attended the University of Delaware commencing in September of 1952, and prior to my attending that school, had it not been for Mr. Redding’s, uh, representation of students from Delaware State College against the state of Delaware and the University of Delaware for a-a-a so-called separate but equal policy, but really was separate but unequal, uh, the University of Delaware facilities were far superior to the Delaware state facilities and the, uh, the opportunities for education in different fields and courses was much more extensive, and the finding by the same judge who, um, did the initial founding in the Brown v. Board part of the case— Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, Bulah. Leonard Williams: Bulah and— Oloye Adeyemon: It was Gephart and— Leonard Williams: Collins Seitz founded the— Oloye Adeyemon: That’s right. Leonard Williams: - University—University of Delaware. Oloye Adeyemon: ‘Cause he ruled in favor of— Leonard Williams: Of— Oloye Adeyemon: - the plaintiffs. Leonard Williams: Of the plaintiffs in both of those cases. Oloye Adeyemon: Both of those. Yeah. Leonard Williams: And both of those cases were cited in-in the Brown decision. Oloye Adeyemon: When you went to University—the University of Delaware, were you aware of when you first went to school that it was due in part to the work that Louis Redding had done? Leonard Williams: I knew there had been-there had been litigation to say to you that as a freshman in college, as I had there at college, that I knew that Louis Redding was the-the man I know today. I-I mean I-I would be not—I mean in truth would say that, but I was aware that I was going into a, um, a new situation that had just been open to-to-to black students. Oloye Adeyemon: What-at what point did you become aware of-of the work that you could associate with Louis Redding, or did you meet him first? Did you hear about him first? Did you work with him first? How-how did it come about that you became aware? Leonard Williams: Two things. Two things. First place, I was an athlete. I-I always called myself a student athlete ‘cause I never wanted to be considered just a football player or a baseball player or whatever. I was a good student in high school, and I thought I’d be a good student in college. And when the University of Delaware opened up and there was a chance to go there, I wanted to compete both academically and athletically, and I felt comfortable doing that, and I knew the school had been recently opened by-by law based upon my—just-just my general knowledge and being aware of things. And I saw it as an opportunity to-to do some—to get the good education and also be involved, and all my friends went to the-the black—traditionally black schools. I felt I wanted to give this a shot ‘cause I felt it was a challenge, and I kind of think we kind of owed it and needed to do it. So, yes, I-I was, I think, and when I say it this way, I’m saying it this way because I-I don’t want to say to you that at 17, I was aggressively aware that Louis Redding was the, uh, activist in the legal field who-who would blaze the trail and give us this opportunity, um, but I-I was aware of the results of what he had done, and I felt it was an opportunity that I had a—I-I should—I should take advantage of. So-so, in that sense, yes, I, you know, I subsequently become much more aware of—well, while I’m a student at the University of Delaware, as I say, I entered in September of ’52, I think in April, May of ’54, Brown versus the Board, um, comes down from the Supreme Court. I’m a sophomore, uh, at the University of Delaware by this time, and, um, one of very few black students on this campus, and it is a monumental decision, and at—in a college setting, and-and in-in my field of-of my major, it became very, very much a significant factor. Oloye Adeyemon: What was your major? Leonard Williams: I majored in History, English, and Political Science. So, I was fully aware now that this was a ma-major decision that was going to have far-reaching impact on America as we knew it. So, I was fully aware that we were moving into a whole different battleground, and that this was the beginning of a-a breakdown of the system, and— Oloye Adeyemon: Did you-did you—you didn’t-you—you had not yet met Louis Redding? Leonard Williams: No, I’ve-I had not yet met Louis Redding, but I was aware of Louis Redding by now. Oloye Adeyemon: What—when did you meet him, and how did you become—how-how did you then become aware of him? Leonard Williams: To be—while I’m in law school, I-I am very much aware of, um, well, I went to Georgetown University Law School, and the Supreme Court was very nearby where my went—where I went to law school, and the things that were going on in 1956 through 1959 while I was at law school were the major cases that are being fought in the whole spectrum of civil rights throughout the country. So, I’m keenly aware of what’s going on, and I’m right in the middle of it because I’m going to school there, uh, and on occasion, I’d go over to the Supreme Court and sit in the—and listen to cases. And as I got closer to graduation, it just seemed to me to be the most—the-the-the best place for me to go and the-the-the thing for me to do would be to go back home and work with this man who had knocked down all these barriers as, you know, as this little guys, um, who— Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say little guy, you mean Mr. Redding? Leonard Williams: Mr. Redding was small in stature. Oloye Adeyemon: How-how tall? Leonard Williams: He’s probably 5’4” or 5”, um, but big-big voice. Oloye Adeyemon: He was an imposing person. Leonard Williams: Imposing person. I mean he—a little guy who-who could-who could, uh, dominate much bigger people who thought they had—far superior to him. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: He was very articulate, imbuing articulate voice. Oloye Adeyemon: You had shared earlier that even during the years when he was working as a lawyer and even was segregated in the courthouse as a lawyer, that, um, not only did he held his head high, but that many of the whites might have felt a little bit intimidated, felt he was a smile, not only did he graduate from Harvard, but he just carried himself in such a way. Leonard Williams: Well, he went-he went to Brown University, um, undergraduate, Harvard Law School, very, very smart, I mean, and a very bright guy, very articulate. And at the—and, you know, this—the-the-the stereotype that whites have of blacks is that, you know, you’re not going to find, uh, a black guy going to Delaware who-who’s got his kind of credentials. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: Uh, and I think it goes back to his family. Um, his, uh, he had a brother and two sisters. All four of the-the children including himself were college graduates. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: Uh, Louis had gone to Brown University and Harvard. His mom and sisters went to Radcliffe. Um, uh, I forget where the other sister went, and then his brother, J. Saunders Redding, um, and I’m not sure what—where he went to college, but eventually became a professor at the, uh, at, uh, Hampton University. He was a prolific writer. Yeah, he wrote many books and ended up, I think, on the staff at Cornell University. So, he has this— Oloye Adeyemon: And he had a sister who became a school teacher. Leonard Williams: And his two sisters were teachers. Oloye Adeyemon: Where did they teach? Leonard Williams: They taught here in the Wilmington school system. They were our teachers. As a matter of fact, one of the teachers—English teachers we had— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - was Louis Redding’s sister. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So, the family, um— Leonard Williams: The family was very academically oriented. Um, Mr. Redding’s father, I believe, was the first President of the local branch of the NAACP when it started many, many years ago. Um— Oloye Adeyemon: He was a—he worked for the Post Office. Leonard Williams: He was a postal worker, and I think—I’m-I’m sure I can remember when I was a kid, my dad was very conscientious and very concerned about the policies and concerns of what was happening, and you feel—you-you sensed. You felt it. So, I’m sure Mr. Redding had that-that fall-fallout. Oloye Adeyemon: Did his mother work? Leonard Williams: Not that I can remember. I don’t think Mrs. Redding worked. No. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember, uh, any of the other prominent figures in the black community along with Redding’s father during the years when you were young sort of? [Unintelligible 13:52]. Leonard Williams: When-when-when I was with—to be very frank about it, you-you-you knew certain politicians. You knew it ‘cause they were in the news once in a while, doctors, dentists, um, who were, you know, professionals and serving their communities. So, you knew them, um, but coming along, the guy who was making the waves—most waves and who was challenging the system was Louis Redding, and he was the only black lawyer. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: So, um, if you’re gonna be—if you’re a young guy who wants to be a lawyer and you’re in the system, you’re gonna-you’re gonna be aware of him. You have to be. There’s no way you could not be. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you have a sense of why he remained the only black lawyer for so long? Leonard Williams: Well, if you-if you-if you fall prey to what the scuttlebutt was, uh, and I didn’t do that. I thought, you know, I-I go to school with these guys, and I do well in college and law school, you know, I was a dean’s list student in college. I did very well in law school. There wasn’t any reason why I shouldn’t be able to go back to my st—home state ‘cause these same guys are gonna take the same exam with me. Uh, you know, I never felt that I should do any worse than they did. If they pass, I’m gonna pass. Um, the general feeling by a lot of the kids who came out of school and who—and then I say kids ‘cause they were my predecessors, people who took it before me, many thought that the-the-the exam was rigged, and-and there was a perception that black law graduates weren’t qualified—as qualified, um, as some of those—their contemporaries. Um, obviously Redding coming out at 29 out of Harvard probably was as qualified as anybody, if not more so, so he didn’t have a problem, uh, passing the exam. And by the time I get to the bar exam, there are three other lawyers had passed the exam. Oloye Adeyemon: And it was some years before any of them— Leonard Williams: There was a big—yeah, there—I’d say there was 20, 25-year gap. Oloye Adeyemon: My question is why do you think that gap existed before another black lawyer [crosstalk 16:04]? Leonard Williams: Well, a-a couple of things. There-there were other blacks who took the bar exam during the year and didn’t pass. Um, in a profession where you don’t have a-a-a-a cadre of people in place in a small community like that of Wilmington, um, I’m sure in DC, Baltimore, or Philly, there are many people in these professions who were moving on. As a matter of fact, as I know Mr. Redding, um, in his early practice days, his friends in the-in the-in the legal fraternity were at—in Philly, Pennsylvania. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: ‘Cause he— Oloye Adeyemon: He lived in New Jersey, I think. Leonard Williams: He lived in-he lived in-he lived in Glen Mills, Pennsylvania. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, is it Pennsylvania? Leonard Williams: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: While practicing here? Leonard Williams: While practicing here. His wife was from New Jersey, but he lived in, you know, it’s only about 20 minutes from here. But, um, I think the community itself didn’t have the-the-the-the volume of-of blacks in the academic sector that produced more lawyers in that sense in a few minimum— Oloye Adeyemon: And it was a small black community, which supported them still. Leonard Williams: Small black community that supported them. exactly. Um, but I’m number four— Oloye Adeyemon: Five. Leonard Williams: - five. I’m the fifth. Oloye Adeyemon: And what year did you-you, uh, in— Leonard Williams: Like, in ’59. Oloye Adeyemon: You passed the bar. Leonard Williams: Yeah, ’59. I— Oloye Adeyemon: So, 30 years later after your— Leonard Williams: Yeah, but there were three or four people before me in between Redding and myself, but they were close to me. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And then the other three guys were maybe a year or two behind me—before me. Oloye Adeyemon: Were any of them from Wilmington? Leonard Williams: One. One of them was. See, two of them were kind of new guys coming in, um, but, um, I-I-I honestly don’t—that there really was no discrimination in the bar. I just think it was the quality of the people who took it, and I think there was-was a confidence factor. I think if you had been going to schools where you were competing with-with Caucasians and people of other races and you were-you were competing successfully— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - you came in with the feeling that you could do it. That’s how I felt. Oloye Adeyemon: And then there were also a small number of blacks— Leonard Williams: And there was one more black. Oloye Adeyemon: - wanting to be admitted. Leonard Williams: Right. I remember when I—that I was taking the bar exam, I was working for Mr. Redding. I started—when I came out of law school, I had taken the DC bar the week—the following—the week after I graduated, I stayed in DC for three day—four days taking the DC bar, and I left DC, like, on a Friday, came back and went to work with Mr. Redding the following Monday. Oloye Adeyemon: Did you already know it? Leonard Williams: Yes. I—no, I-I met with him earlier on and talked with him about it. Oloye Adeyemon: In DC or on trips back home? Leonard Williams: Trip back home over the Christmas holiday. I was in— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, did he already know your intentions— Leonard Williams: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - of coming back and working? Leonard Williams: I went back. I went in to talk to him and talked with him about when I graduate—when I will be graduating, and-and he said, “Sure, I’d like to have you come on with me.” And so, I knew when I left law school and took the DC bar that I was gonna come to work for him that summer, and that’s the summer of 1959. Oloye Adeyemon: How did his commitment to desegregation affect his practice and just his general, uh, standing on white policy [unintelligible 19:21]? Leonard Williams: Well, I-I think he was—I think everybody respected him. Many of ‘em didn’t like him, you know. They thought he was a little bit, uh, uh, detached and he wasn’t one of the boys, but they—there was nothing here to make him feel like he was one of the boys because he wasn’t welcomed into the various clubs and into the so-called fraternity of-of lawyers, so, you know— Oloye Adeyemon: And he was probably perhaps better educated as well. Leonard Williams: He was better educated and-and— Oloye Adeyemon: And he took the bar. Leonard Williams: And-and I think he felt superior to them, and so he didn’t have any reason to kowtow to them or-or-or-or cater to their prejudices or whatever. The guys who were, uh, enlightened who knew him respected him and looked up to him, and I think to this day, um, recognized his contribution to the state, was probably the—one of the most influential people they’ve ever seen in Delaware that had any impact on Delaware as we know it. Oloye Adeyemon: In terms of the law. Leonard Williams: In terms of the law. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And do you attribute that to his, um, im—the impact he had on-on, um, in integrating, um, the state, or was it also because of his Harvard training for that? Leonard Williams: A combination of it. You know, I mean he doesn’t have the arbitraining—he doesn’t go back to—he probably would’ve gone to law school somewhere. Oloye Adeyemon: He might not have won some of those cases, though, [crosstalk 20:55]. Leonard Williams: He may not have, but you—but I think he probably would ‘cause the law was pretty clear even though they weren’t bringing ‘em to-to-to— Oloye Adeyemon: Accepted. Leonard Williams: - accepted at the time. I think what you’ve got to remember is that Delaware was a totally segregated state. Every vestige of life in this community was segregated, and this little guy comes along, and he attacks every element one by one. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember Saul Lascellas 21:21? Leonard Williams: Oh, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 21:23]. Leonard Williams: Yeah. Well, schools, first place, college, University of Delaware, Delaware State. Oloye Adeyemon: Right, because this was a case even before the Belton— Leonard Williams: Yeah, and-and— Oloye Adeyemon: - the Bulah cases. Leonard Williams: The Parker case is the-is the first big win. Oloye Adeyemon: Parker against the University of Delaware. Leonard Williams: Parker against the University of Delaware. If you—it’s the first attack on separate but equal that’s successful, and if people who know the Brown versus the Board decision can read it, it’s that decision is-is cited there, and the-and the Chancelor that our court in Delaware at the time is the Court-Court of Equity. It’s the same court that handles all of the corporate cases Delaware’s family supports. It’s equity court because it handles major cases involving corporate litigation. Um— Oloye Adeyemon: That’s English law. It’s a different system than [crosstalk 22:13]. Leonard Williams: It’s a different system, but because it—we have so many states and so many big companies incorporated here, the quality of the court had to be high ‘cause if you had substandard court decisions and stuff coming through, you’re not gonna get Coca-Cola, GM and all these companies incorporated into it because the qual—the low—the-the—their controversies between these companies— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - are gonna be dealt with here in these—in the Delaware court system. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And if you’ve got an inferior system handling major, uh, controversies between multi-multi-billion dollar, uh, companies, you’ve got problems. So, you had to very, very high level quality, uh, judicial people, and the guy who we all consider a hero made—who-who-who ran—went before and who had sat on these cases was Collins Seitz. And Collins Seitz with the opinion in the Parker case made the decision integrating the University of Delaware and Collins Seitz was the first judge to make the decision saying that-that separate but equal, um, was unequal, uh, and the language in the Brown decision is a-is a verba-a verbatim quotes from his decision. Oloye Adeyemon: That’s what makes the Delaware contribution to the Brown versus Board, um, unique in that— Leonard Williams: Yes, because this was— Oloye Adeyemon: - you—the go—the lawyer which was Louis Redding— Leonard Williams: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - won his case. Leonard Williams: Won his case, and we had a—it-it was the first decision— Oloye Adeyemon: In the country. Leonard Williams: - in the country where the court and state court have said Plessy versus Ferguson is not the law, and it can never be the law. Um, separate but equal in and of itself breeds inequality. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And-and so that’s the case that goes up to the Supreme Court— Oloye Adeyemon: Up to— Leonard Williams: - that’s affirmed. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: All the other cases are reversed. Oloye Adeyemon: Right, because then it was first a-affirmed in the Delaware Supreme Court. It went from our standard chancery court here in New Castle County up to the Supreme Court, and they did not overturn Seitz’s decision. Leonard Williams: No. Well, because the system was-was blatant and too much. Oloye Adeyemon: Right, but now given what you’re saying, it’s still significant because it was just as blatant in South Carolina, just as blatant in the other states. Yet, none of them ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, so there— Leonard Williams: Agreed. Oloye Adeyemon: There has to be something significant as you suggest in Judge Seitz, but also in Louis Redding did at this here. Leonard Williams: I think you had probably the two—one of the—two of the most talented people in the-in the-in the profession involved in these cases. The combination of Louis Redding and Collins Seitz was probably one of the great happenstances in this whole process. You had two people who were extremely talented, extremely committed, and dealing with an issue that was just waiting to be dealt with by people who-who-who had the-the fortitude to-to deal with it in an appropriate fashion. So, these two guys come along at the right time. It’s just a-a wonderful thing that this happened, and-and I think when you—and-and that’s probably why we in Delaware have to be very much aware that our people, our guys and who presented these cases were right from Jump Street when I say from the initial cases going back to Parker v UD through, um, POB, Gephart and, um, the other part that basically came on. These decisions are decisions that were affirmed and, um, so that the Delaware court under Seitz, the-the-the language on these decisions is quoted in Brown. Oloye Adeyemon: Would you say that, um, the school segregation involved in, uh, Redding’s matched by other involvement in desegregation that was—were there other types of, um— Leonard Williams: Oh, yeah, yeah. I-I—as I said earlier, um, so that’s— Oloye Adeyemon: - besides the school situation? Leonard Williams: Delaware was completely segregated so that every vestige of life in Delaware had to be dealt with, and once you broke the school problem because as-as-as across the country, when we were talking in-a-in another interview about, um, Howard Johnson’s, you have to recognize that, um, the reason why Howard Johnson’s was desegregated is because Howard Johnson’s, if we remember, for many years along the turnpikes and many of the international—the—of the interstate roadways, there were Howard Johnsons, and people had to stop for refreshments and use restrooms and so forth. So, yeah, Howard Johnson’s didn’t announce that, yes, we are open to everybody, but they were forced to do it. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: And Redding actually fight to your—can you-can you cite other cases that you, you know, for here locally that were, um, segregation cases, you know, whether it be lunch counters or— Leonard Williams: I— Oloye Adeyemon: - was he involved in any of that? Leonard Williams: Oh, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Leonard Williams: Put it this way, I participated and helped with this writing—in-in writing the public accommodations law that is the law of the state of Delaware. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: Um, what we saw across the country was that the first breakthrough in com—public accommodations was the Interstate Commerce process. We had bus stations, um, train stations, airports, and—or in the-in the hub of all your major cities around the country. And you were able—that’s when the attack started, so once you broke them, you had some integration in public accommodations in all of your major cities, so that was your first breakthrough. Oloye Adeyemon: And that was done here in Wilmington? Leonard Williams: Oh, it was done here, every state in the United States. Oloye Adeyemon: Were you working with Redding at that time when you did that? Leonard Williams: I think-I think the Interstate Commerce application of, uh, in domestic public accommodations predated Brown. I mean that-that link—that was going on, um, in the early 40s. Oloye Adeyemon: And Redding was involved in that [unintelligible 28:39]? Leonard Williams: Yes, they were involved, and that’s where your—the-the first degrees in the national civil rights movement as to public accommodations occurred through the Interstate Commerce law. Oloye Adeyemon: So, Redding was the local person here— Leonard Williams: He-he was— Oloye Adeyemon: - working toward that goal? Leonard Williams: Exactly. He was the local lawyer who was involved with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in pursuing litigation to breakdown all of these barriers, um, so that integration in all areas of life in-in-in Delaware. Um, but as I said, for public accommodations, the critical breakthrough was the national impact of the Interstate Commerce law that said we’re-we’re the—that the-the during the Day’s Inn— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - and all the, um, hotels and, um, you know, the-the old line, if you had to have a white person who wanted to get in the car and drive to Florida and he had to stop to go to a bathroom or get a sandwich, you know, if you-if you weren’t gonna go, if you had to pull off the road and go into town to get a sandwich, you’d-you’d starve to death. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: So, it became important that people were ab—by necessity— Oloye Adeyemon: Sure. Leonard Williams: - were able to travel across this country and avail themselves of simple needs. I mean to go to a bathroom, to get a glass of water, to get a sandwich, you know, these were—this is a—it says something about the civilization that would deny a person those kinds of simple, um, responses because of the color of their skin. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand that, um, Redding was approached by the mother who—yeah, it was the plaintiff in the—yeah, the plaintiff in one of the cases, uh, Mrs. Bulah, uh, for assistance, uh, because her daughter, um, she wanted her daughter to be able to ride the school bus with the white children in order to get to the black school, and what was his response to her when she came to him and asked him to help her? Leonard Williams: I can give you a quick one, and I’ll give you-give you a little background. The-the-the-the case involved a, uh, a kid who was living in an area called Hockessin, which is about 8 to 10 miles outside the city of Wilmington. And that little girl was—her mother had to get her into Wilmington to go to a black school. And the kids who lived in the area, the white kids who lived in the area were getting a school bus to take them to school, and her concern was her little girl had to get up at 5:00 and 6:00 in the morning to try to get into Wilmington, and there was no school bus. So, she came to Redding and said, “Look, I mean this isn’t there. Why—these white kids who live around us are going to school on a school bus provided by the state, and I’ve got to get up and get my little girl right to the bus stop to get her in—on a bus to get her in town. This is unfair. I want you to help me get bus transportation for my daughter.” And he looked at her and said, “Well, Mrs. Bulah, I wanna help you, but I’m not gonna help you get bus transportation. I wanna get your kid into that school, and I’ll do it on that basis.” And that’s a true story, and-and that’s how that Bulah case becomes a—one of the plaintiffs in that situation. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And they do file a lawsuit, goes through our system, and that’s part of the Brown decision. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And then the other case was the Belton case, uh, versus Gephart. Gephart happened to be the first one listed on the defendant side. Was he the head of the school board? Leonard Williams: Gephart was the-was the-was the head of the school—president of the school board, as you know, at the time. Get—but that-that part of the case involves another area which is north of-north of the city of Wilmington, area in Claymont, another 8, 9, 10 miles away from the city, and kids from that area were having to come down to Wilmington to go to school. Oloye Adeyemon: And these were black children living in Claymont. Leonard Williams: Black children. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And, um, again— Oloye Adeyemon: There was a high school in Claymont, but they couldn’t attend it. Leonard Williams: They couldn’t attend. Oloye Adeyemon: Because, as you stated earlier, Howard High School’s the only high school in the state [unintelligible 32:39], and so that case was to integrate Claymont High School. Leonard Williams: Yeah. I-I—the-the-the Bulah v Gephart and Alpha, Dalton, Brown, I call-I call ‘em Brown. Oloye Adeyemon: ‘Cause that’s their married name. Leonard Williams: Yeah, I think it was their married name. And Dalton, he—Belton v the Board—v Gephart, are the two cases, you know, that, as you know, there were several other plaintiffs in the-in the, um, probably 10, 12 kids who were plaintiffs in the, uh, Claymont case, a bunch of those kids were plaintiffs, whereas the Bulah case was just— Oloye Adeyemon: One student. Leonard Williams: - the one. Yeah. Uh, and it was because these-these kids were-were-were required to come down, and there wasn’t—there were no school facilities in Claymont for them. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Something that, um, I think needs to be emphasized, when Seitz ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, immediately there was some black students that were enrolled in Claymont High. Am I not correct that with his ruling he indicated that that’s immediately occurred in [unintelligible 33:53]? Leonard Williams: Yes, yes, it did occur. It did occur. Oloye Adeyemon: And even though in other areas of the state, um, there was a long delays elsewhere in integrating schools. Those students that went there remained there, is that true? Leonard Williams: Yes, yes. What-what happened essentially is the schools at New Castle County that were affected integrated much quicker and much faster than the-the lower two counties. Oloye Adeyemon: What year would that have been when they first went—it was within a year of the court decision. Leonard Williams: Yes, September ’52. Yes. That would be the—it’s, uh, it’s [unintelligible 34:29]. It was September ’52. Um, those cases started going through those schools. Now, one of the things that happened that probably helped matters a bit, and this is where the, you know, this—and I know you’re—we’re looking at the Redding at this point, but Collins Seitz was Catholic. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: The Catholic Diocese of Wilmington decided once this thing started, they were gonna integrate their schools. Oloye Adeyemon: Would they have done that before the decision or after? Leonard Williams: They did. They did. Oloye Adeyemon: Before the decision. Leonard Williams: They-they opened the Catholic schools in the city of Wilmington to-to black students prior to Brown v the Board. Oloye Adeyemon: Would they have done it if it was rigged in that fuller case at the trial, would you say? Leonard Williams: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: At that time, would you think they would’ve done it any sooner? Leonard Williams: I think-I think Collins Seitz as being a devout Catholic and being there, he was the—if Louis Redding was the golden boy for the minority community, Collins Seitz was the golden boy for the Catholic community, and he was so strong in the law— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - that his decisions, Parker— Oloye Adeyemon: Right, [unintelligible 35:33]. Leonard Williams: - and their—they began to see where the movement was. It-it was almost impossible from a spiritual standpoint to— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leonard Williams: - to support a-a-a religious school system that would deny minority applicants. Oloye Adeyemon: So, it would’ve had an impact on it, but it was probably the Parker case that pushed it forward [unintelligible 35:49]. Leonard Williams: I think the Parker case and the fact that Redding and-and Seitz, it was pretty clear where they were going. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And it—you-you-you could see it, and, um, it-it was inevitable where we were going, and once we got some federal decisions, you know, we were on our way. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. One thing that I’ve found very interesting, I had a chance to interview a lawyer that was there at, um, a point in ’55 when they were, you know, decided on the implementation. He actually represented the defense. He was there with Attorney General Delouise 36:25, Assistant Attorney General, and he indicated that the Supreme Court judges were unaware that there were black students already in the schools in Delaware. They were aware of the case, of course, but they weren’t aware that students were actually in the schools. And I got the impression that that particular—not only the fact that Delaware had been warned, but that there were black students in the schools had an impact in that final phase of the ’55 when they decided on implementation incident. Leonard Williams: Well, I think one of the things— Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 37:00]. Leonard Williams: One of the things that you’ll find in these-in these—in the process of desegregation is once you break—have broken a barrier and the case had been put in the school, the-the-the law—‘cause the judges don’t wanna pull kids out of these situations. It’s just the-the up—tearing down a process that’s already moving with somebody, they-they do not like to do. So, I would think that, no, once those kids were in place and moving through, they wanted to sustain that. It’s just unique that one of the things we’ve always said about Delaware is as much as we were able to achieve from a legal standpoint, one of the reasons why we’ve been able to achieve it is that the state was so racist that it-it always had—it was easy to break down the barriers because the stuff was so blatant. I mean they’ve got laws here, and there was Jim Crow laws that were just sitting there to be knocked down. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: So, it was easier to-to-to—when I say easier, it’s like shooting at a-at a-at a target, and it’s a big target sitting there for you to hit, you hit it, and Delaware has been known over the years of the same thing in our school deseg cases. They’d pass a law clearly unconstitutional, and they’d be told as they-as they think before they passed it and pass it anyway. And so, when we went in the courts, we-we always— Oloye Adeyemon: Just that easy. Leonard Williams: We always have battering rams sitting there for us to be able to nail, so that Delaware despite its-its being proud to say we were—we were the first case that-that was-that was affirmed and so forth— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - it is also, uh, saying not to be proud of it, the history of the state is that they would-they would do a lot of things legally that were far behind what was being going on in other-other places. Oloye Adeyemon: How long did you work with Redding? How many years? Leonard Williams: I started out with Louis Redding as a law student in—well, I-I had to graduate from law school in June of, um, 1959. I remained as his associate from 1959 until I became a member of the Judiciary in 1966. Oloye Adeyemon: And when you became a member of the Judiciary, was— Leonard Williams: Well, Mr. Ag—Mr. Aguillar 39:29, a criminal lawyer. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. Leonard Williams: And I was—became a criminal court judge as well as a solo practitioner, and, um, so we had to disassociate our—we had a—we had our own offices together, and I did the civil work in the office, and—a lot of it, and he did a lot of criminal work. Oloye Adeyemon: How long were you on the bench? Leonard Williams: I was on the bench for 32 years. Oloye Adeyemon: And when you left, you went back to private practice? Leonard Williams: No, I did private practice and was on the bench at the same time. Oloye Adeyemon: I-I know that, but you continued private practice. Leonard Williams: Yeah, and—but I wanna show you and tell you how this-this-this worked ‘cause it’s kind of interesting. Because he was a criminal lawyer and did a lot of criminal work, he and I couldn’t have the same—have an office together because he—there’d be a conflict of interest. He couldn’t come into court because some-someone who was his associate, so we split our offices. And I continued to do the civil—his civil work in a sort of a-a—his office is across the street from my office, and I still did all the personal injury cases of all-all his work up until he quit practicing. Oloye Adeyemon: When did he-when did he retire? Leonard Williams: He was 85 years old when he quit. He’s been dead about two years now. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: So, um, I’d say 15 years ago. That’s probably as close as I can give it to you, but I-I did all of his civil work. I—it was a very interesting thing. As-as fantastic a lawyer he was, he-he—in-in-in the area of civil rights and in the criminal law, he was very-very good at criminal cases. As a matter of fact, he had represented many capital cases and particularly cases where black men were charged with rape, and he had been good at that, and he had gotten many positive, uh, verdicts in that area. Oloye Adeyemon: He also had some white clients as well. Leonard Williams: Yes. He did not feel comfortable in the civil arena going after money for-for clients who had been injured because the jury system was all white, um, and he encouraged me to deal with that. He said-said to me, you know, you—you’re younger, you-you-you work at that. So, he kind of tossed that ball to me, and even as we stayed apart in our actual offices, I handled all of his civil cases, um, all the way through, and, um, and I kind of, you know, that opportunity ‘cause as a-as a young lawyer you don’t even get a chance to get major cases ‘cause you don’t get the clients right away, but he had them, and he let him handle them. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: So, he gave me a chance to-to do some things in that arena that, um, I think began to break down some-some other things, but he—it was because of his reluctance to even mess with that because he would prefer to do the other things— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - and allowed me to break some ground in that area, and-and we did very well in. Oloye Adeyemon: You have your own law firm now? Leonard Williams: I have a-I have a law office, and I have two other lawyers who are associated with me in my practice. Oloye Adeyemon: Has his sort of law practice survived? Leonard Williams: I would say his practice has survived. I think I-I— Oloye Adeyemon: A few others, but I’m saying it hasn’t-it hasn’t-it hasn’t incorporated. Leonard Williams: I believe—I have all of his files. I have—I think I carry on pretty much what he did. I-I-I’ve inherited the mantle of-of handling civil rights cases in the state. I work—I am the local practicing— Oloye Adeyemon: Are you still a partner in his [unintelligible 42:56]? Leonard Williams: No, I-I-I became [unintelligible 42:58]. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, he’s— Leonard Williams: I couldn’t. It was informal. Oloye Adeyemon: No, no, but I’m—well, let me ask another, yeah, ‘cause there—he was totally finished. Were these—did he have other partners at that point? Leonard Williams: He had-he had—there were other lawyers, but one other lawyer was—or two other lawyers who were associated with him, but not as involved as I was. Uh, Kester Crosse, who’s now one of my associates, worked with him for a few years, and when he left him, he came over to me, and then, uh, Tom Luce, who was a minister, who was a very civil-rights-oriented guy and—as-as a minister went on to law school and then came out and practiced and worked—and worked with Mr. Redding, didn’t work with him long. But I probably had more contact with him than anybody. Oloye Adeyemon: What were the—what was the relationship between the three or four black lawyers that were admitted to the bar between the time that you came and the time that Redding started? What was their relationship with Redding? Leonard Williams: Pretty interesting. It wasn’t that close, and since it’s—and I-and I—to this day, I’ve never really taken-taken a look at it without getting into personalities, and I won’t do that. Um, he really didn’t associate too closely with the other lawyers. Um, I was the first—‘cause he was not an easy person to get to know from a distance, so if you weren’t involved with him and close to him— Oloye Adeyemon: This is his personality. Leonard Williams: That was his personality. Um, his daughters have said I was the son he never had. So, then when I got involved with him, it became very close, and it stayed that way, I mean and when—and I was one at the nursing home when he died, I mean, with his kids, and his three girls were like my little sisters, um, so that that was the relationship, and-and that continued. But he-he was a person—he-you didn’t get to know him—you didn’t get in that—inside the inner circle that easily, but once you got in, you were in. Oloye Adeyemon: Are there other factors that might’ve contributed to the distance between besides that? Leonard Williams: Well, what I—one of the things was as a young lawyer, I-I-I’d just marvel. I was like, this was God to me in my profession. I mean I couldn’t—and the best thing that will happen to me as a young lawyer would be to go to work for Louis Redding. This is my hero. This is the guy who is Superman. I don’t think the other guys looked at him that way, but I did. I just thought this was the greatest thing in the world that could happen to me as a young lawyer. Oloye Adeyemon: So, they were more just cutting out their own ditch, the other lawyers. Leonard Williams: Well, and they—and then they probably made some mistakes trying to do that because I went into practice with a guy who was a superhero, super—Superman in the law, and my mistakes were caught in the office. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: You know, when I went before a judge, I was prepared. You know, he would make me rewrite stuff. I remember I used to do one-one, and I did— Oloye Adeyemon: How well you did the jury sounds. Leonard Williams: Yeah. I mean he could—I could never get him to, you know, he—if I give him a paper, he’d say, “No, you have to go back and change this. You know, this isn’t right.” And I remember just going back and he’d make me change it, and after a while, I said, you know, maybe I better stop and look at this harder before I give it to him, and then finally after about several of these instances, uh, he began to say, “Okay, Leonard, it’s okay. That looks good. Go in with it.” Oloye Adeyemon: So [crosstalk 46:00]. Leonard Williams: It made me a better lawyer, and, um, and I-I-I saw the quality of the preparation, the way he prepared his briefs, um, the way he articulated the things he did, the way he handled— Oloye Adeyemon: He was very thorough. Leonard Williams: - himself in court. He was very thorough, very professional, very well dressed. I mean he dressed, uh, I think I’m up—I know I’m still-still wearing some of the-the look that he would’ve professed. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Leonard Williams: You know, always well groomed, uh, and dark suit, black shoes, white shirt, and, um, I remember when I used to wear—we were starting—started wearing blue shirts. I used to like to wear-wear a blue shirt with a blue—with a—and sort of a maroon tie with a blue suit, and he didn’t like that. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: He said he wanted me to wear white shirts, you know, and it was important. But if you look around, now lawyers started mixing it up a little with a little color here and there, but that was the old style, and that was expected. Um, the other thing about him was, uh, I remember when I first went in talk to him, um— Oloye Adeyemon: This was in ’59. Leonard Williams: Yeah, people knew me because I went to college here, University, and I played football, and I was known as Lennie Williams, and Joe would never call me anything but Len, you know, never Leonard. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: So, I go to talk to Mr. Redding, and I’m sitting there, and I’m, you know, and he said, “Well, what’s your name, young man?” I said, “I’m-I’m Lennie Williams,” you know, and he looks at me like, “Who the heck is Lennie Williams?” He said, “Is that your name?” Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughs] Leonard Williams: And I said, “Yeah, Lennie Williams.” He goes, “Well, Lennie?” He said, “What’s your real name?” I said, “Leonard.” He said, “Oh, thank God.” Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughs] Leonard Williams: I-I hate these Willies and Jimmys and all that sort of thing, and that’s the first thing I realized, and for the entire time— Oloye Adeyemon: He was, like, formal. Leonard Williams: Formal. The entire time I knew him, he never called me Lennie. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: The kids called me Lennie, but he never called me Lennie. It was always Leonard, Leonard this, Leonard that. Even when he was old, 98 and blind, he was saying, “Leonard, are you in the room?” And I’d say, “Yes, Mr. Redding. I’m in the room.” I did get to the point where I could call him Louis or Lou after time, you know. The relationship became more father-son, and, um, we could relate that way. But I was never called anything but Leonard. Uh, he did not like that old stuff, uh, Willie Jane or Mary Jane or— Oloye Adeyemon: How old was he when he passed? Leonard Williams: Well, the-the letter’s gonna say 96, but I understand he kind of cheated a little bit. Oloye Adeyemon: So, he was actually 98? Leonard Williams: He was actually 98. Oloye Adeyemon: And that was two years ago? Leonard Williams: He took two years. Yeah, he took two years. Oloye Adeyemon: Was that two years ago? Leonard Williams: Yes. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: But he was 98 when he died. His-his daughter was almost— Oloye Adeyemon: So, he was born around 1900 [crosstalk 48:35]. Leonard Williams: His oldest daughter—his older daughter says that daddy always said, and she called him that way, that he was two years younger than he was, but on my birth certificate, there was a—there—he-he would be—he would’ve been 98. His age on her birth certificate was two years older than his age that he gave. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: And that’s why I knew he-he was actually—he—when he died, he said he was 96. He was 98. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Loo-looking at everything, knowing him and looking at everything that’s occurred, uh, one, how would he feel about, uh, the integration that now exists in Wilmington, and how would he feel about the conditions of the schools here? Just from your—I mean you can’t speak for him, but— Leonard Williams: I’ll be honest with you. Oloye Adeyemon: - from his-from his— Leonard Williams: He was-he was, and I don’t think he would’ve changed by now, he was a staunch believer in integration. He believed that it was important for people to be exposed in every facet of living, and education was-was one of the fundamental areas. So, he would not be—he-if-if I walk into a court tomorrow, I’ll be fighting neighborhood schools ‘cause he would want—he would fight neighborhood schools. He would— Oloye Adeyemon: So-so, would you say that he feels that his work has been accomplished or there’s yet work to be done? Leonard Williams: Oh, I—I know how he feels. Oloye Adeyemon: Just based on the conversations that you had with him. Leonard Williams: I know-I know-I know-I know from my experience with him and my experience in the law that there’s still a lot of work to be done. There’s still people in this state and this community who wanna go back to Plessy v Ferguson, and until we get to a point where people wanna move into the—to the 21st century with some sense, you still gotta keep fighting, you know. So, yeah, I-I-I—he would want us to do just what we’re gonna be doing. We’re gonna be fighting injustice and-and Jim Crow laws and attitudes and in every facet of living including the schools and criminal justice system, whatever. Um, Delaware’s got a horrible history about how it treats its minority citizens and how it treats its people, um, and that handicaps everybody— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Leonard Williams: - black and white. Oloye Adeyemon: Based on the fact that it has handicapped everyone, do you feel that he saw his efforts as something he was going—the black citizens were global 50:57 citizens? Leonard Williams: Oh, I think-I think his—yeah, you gotta believe we’re doing it for everybody, and I think he did. Uh, I’m-I’m—obviously your preference is to make sure that you’ve—you lead your people and you open doors for them. But I think when he—and I believe into this day that I help a lot of white people grow and learn by some of the things I do and some of the things I’ve done because they need it just as well as-as we do, and the true enlightenment involves everybody, and I think everything that’s happened in the civil rights movement has broadened the life and the base of every citizen of America, black or white, uh, any color. Everybody benefits, and until we get there, we’re never gonna be a-a-a real complete society where everybody recognizes that everybody has to be treated equally under the law and given an opportunity under the law. So, I would say Redding’s legacy is that it has benefitted e-every Delawarean and this entire-entire country. Oloye Adeyemon: With Brown versus the Board and Plessy versus Ferguson. Leonard Williams: Through Brown versus the Board, and some of his other fights. I’ll be back. Oloye Adeyemon: And some. Thank you so much for your time. Leonard Williams: Thank you. [Pause 52:12 - 53:10] [End of Audio]
Description
Williams, the fifth African American to be admitted to the Delaware state bar would go on to work for the first, Louis Redding. He quickly developed a relationship with Redding, being described by Redding’s daughters as ‘The son he never had.’ This interview presents a personal view of Louis Redding from a third party perspective while also speaking to the challenges of being an attorney of color during the fight against segregation.
Date Created
08/09/2001
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