Audio
Stanley “Stan” M. Schmutz | Oral History
Transcript
Stanley “Stan” M. Schmutz was interviewed on February 8, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon- Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: How [did] your family get out on the [Arizona] Strip? Were you out there early?
SS: My granddad [John Schmutz] was called to help build The [Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] temple [in St. George]. He and my grandmother [Clorinda (Schlappi) Schmutz] were called to manage the saw mill [on the Arizona Strip]. That is how we got there. Granddad [had] most of his property around St. George. All [of the area where the] Stone Cliff [Development is] was his homestead.
Dad [John Henry Schmutz] took up the first homestead in Tuweep. I believe that was [in] 1916. There was a big broad canyon [that] came down from the top of the fault, down to the valley and flattened out. Dad built a big reservoir there. How the hell he did it, I don’t know. He had [some] mules.
MH: Did he use mules and a Fresno scraper?
SS: Yes.
MH: That was a lot of work.
SS: A lot of work! Dad was used to that. He went down to the lower end [of the valley] and plugged off one of the draws that ran down into the canyons. It [was] wasting the water down in the [canyon]. He built a big dam across and kept the water up on top. That was the only water I ever remember being there. He backed the water up [fairly] high there. Then he went to the south side of [the valley] and built another big dam so [the water] couldn’t run off that way.
MH: Your dad didn’t farm, he ranched, right?
SS: Yes, dad ranched most of his life. He farmed a hell of a lot of it! But it was ranching.
MH: Did you grow up out on the ranch or in St. George?
SS: I [was] out there the first few years. When we started school, we had to come in [to St. George]. We spent a lot of time with dad out there; dad, I and Gus Fullerton. Gus was working for Jack Finley and we rode together a lot. We were down in the neighborhood of; oh, what was his name, he used to drink a lot.
MH: “Old Man” [James “Jim”] White?
SS: No, he was in that neighborhood.
MH: Bill Shanley?
SS: No, he used to drink a lot. What was his name? [Laughter]
MH: Did he make whiskey?
SS: No, he didn’t make it.
MH: It wasn’t one of the Kents was it?
SS: No.
MH: Cunningham?
SS: No, Billy used to work for Jack a lot.
MH: Billy Bink? He was a cowboy.
SS: Yes, [he was]. What was his name?
MH: Was it Billy Bink?
SS: No, he was down [at] Little Tank, over [in] Main Street [Valley]. I don’t remember much about him. He [Billy Bink] drowned.
MH: That is right. He drowned taking cattle across the Colorado River.
SS: Yes; [if] I remember correctly, he met [the cowboys] on this side of the river. They were having trouble getting the cattle across [and the] water was cold. He jumped on a horse called “Dixie.” Somebody else [had been] riding him that day. Billy jumped on him and started loping for the water to get the horse to go out in. Billy Bink always carried a hog-leg [pistol] on his hip. He got “Dixie” into the water, but he got him into one of those ─
MH: Whirlpools?
SS: Whirlpool [or] eddies. He could see the horse was going down, [so] he climbed up as high as he could on his neck. Hell, I remember they [went] out there looking for him. They finally found [that] the horse had drowned and Billy did too.
MH: When you were living out on the ranch, did you have any brothers and sisters out there?
SS: Yes, my younger brother Ray [Schmutz], he is two years younger than me. There was just the two of us. Mother [Ada Cornelia (Snow) Schmutz] and dad used to go out there [during the] summer. Mother didn’t like it a damn bit! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter]
SS: No electricity and no refrigeration! But mother was a good old soul [and] she stuck with dad. So we spent the summers out there.
MH: What kind of cattle did you run?
SS: They were white face Herefords. We had [fairly] good cattle. [Preston] Nutter used to run roan [red] Durham. I thought [they] were the raunchiest looking cattle! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter]
SS: [They] never were fat [and] poor as a crow. They looked to me like [fairly] worthless cattle.
MH: What was your brand?
SS: UN, combined.
MH: Whose idea was that?
SS: I don’t know. I had never heard of it before. I guess it was dad’s [idea]. I don’t know where he got it.
MH: I’ll be darned.
SS: Marcel [Ervin Schmutz], dad’s brother, [used] K N brand. [Another brother], Wilfred A. [Antone Schmutz], branded with a quarter circle K. The [cattle] they owned together [were branded] Bar 10.
MH: Tony Heaton uses that [brand] now.
SS: Yes but he just ─
MH: He just bought it.
SS: Yes, he is a moocher! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter]
SS: He bought a bunch of cattle from Howard and had trouble paying for them. Tony was a plunger [speculator] but he fancied the Bar 10 [brand]. He said, “Let me have that brand and I’ll brand my cattle with [it]. The [cattle] that I have paid for I will keep and you can do what you want with the others.” Yes, Tony has a big lodge down there in Whitmore [Canyon]. He has lots of water there, too.
MH: Yes, he piped the spring down [there]. Who were your neighbors when you were out there?
SS: Bud Kent brought his two brothers, three sisters and all the [fellows] that he could hire to take up a homestead. They took up [all of] Tuweep.
MH: [They] took up the [whole] valley?
SS: Yes.
MH: [Did] the Kents build [the] church out there?
SS: Bud’s wife, Mattie. She was a “holy-roller”, I believe. She built [it] up by the road. She would walk up there every day, cold, rain or snow. It wasn’t much of a church, just one tiny room. [It] kind of bothered me [and] I’m glad they burned [it] down.
MH: How come?
SS: The BLM [Bureau of Land Management] made it look like people were coming there to church. Hell, they never went to church there.
MH: Nobody went to church there?
SS: Gad, no!
MH: [Laughter]
SS: That was damned deceit [and] I don’t know who started it. Mattie would go up there alone. Nobody was there. She would go up there alone and stay most of a morning, snow [or] rain.
MH: Who were some of the other neighbors besides the Kents?
SS: Billy Cunningham and his boy Raz [who] married one of the Kent girls, Ruth Kent. They used to work for us and Jack [Finley]. They could keep [fairly] busy then. How they could make any money, [laughter] just not [any] money in it. Billy [Bink] built a [fairly] good four-roomed house. [It was] a lumber shack but it kept them out of the weather. [Billy] Bink built a pond four miles down the valley from dad. I think Raz only took up [homesteaded] 320 [acres]. I think that was all they let [anyone] take up then. Yes, I’m [fairly] sure it was.
They had to have horses, so they got any damn crow bait [horse] they could [find]. [They were] damn wild [and] crazy cusses. They couldn’t corral them. I sat up there [at] dad’s [ranch] and watched them chasing those horses, trying to get them in the corral. Hell, they just ran right past it! I know something about that because I tried to help them once or twice. They couldn’t get them in the corral. Raz liked to be a bronco-buster. He liked to ride bucking horses.
MH: [Did] he like to break them?
SS: Yes, he broke a lot [of horses] for Kent. That was another thing, Kent didn’t have any water. He built [a] pond up above dad’s place. Dad made him tear [it] out because he was [on] dad’s filings [homestead]. Dad and he nearly came to blows. Dad had to get the law to make [him] tear [the pond] out. Because he had the filings on those draws and Kent didn’t. But Kent put [the pond] in anyway. He tried to water those nags of his.
Hell, he had hundreds of horses up there and no water. He would drive them down to dad’s place, water them and take them back up. That used to irk me something fierce. I said, “Dad, why don’t you cut him off. He wouldn’t water your [animals] if you didn’t have water. You [would] just [be] out of luck.” He never had enough water.
MH: Do you remember the [Al] Craig family?
SS: Yes, I remember when they [moved] in. Al and the old lady they called Grandma Craig.
MH: Wasn’t [she] his mother-in-law?
SS: I think [she] was.
MH: Or his mother, I forget which.
SS: They settled on the north side of Mt. Trumbull. There was a Mel Terry [who] took up a homestead there. Mel went broke and sold to Al [Craig]. Al was something of a mechanic [and] had a garage. I remember him telling how he got up Quail Hill out here. They would go as far as they could, unload, then go a little further, bring the [items] up to where they [were], load up again and go up a little further! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter]
SS: We used to do that too. Granddad used to have [an] old Model-T [Ford]. There was a brake, a reverse peddle in the middle, low gear and forward peddle on the left side. Hell, that old thing just didn’t have the power to do [the hill]! I’ve seen [some] German cars like that.
MH: Volkswagens?
SS: [They didn’t have any] gas. They had a water tank in the back seat and they would build a fire in there ─
MH: [It was] steam driven.
SS: ─ and generate the gas there. Gad, they wouldn’t pull your hat off!
MH: [Laughter]
SS: Gutless damn things! How the hell [did] Germany get anything [to work].
MH: What was Al Craig doing? Was he ranching? Did he have cows?
SS: Yes, Al kept his cattle up there in the summer [and] then he would take them over to S B Canyon and winter them there. That place had lots of grass in it. Jack Finley’s cowboys would go over there and spend the winter in S B Canyon.
MH: How did it get the name S B Canyon?
SS: [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] Just like it sounds?
SS: Just like it sounds! [Laughter]. It was north and east of Tuckup [Canyon]. It was quite a bit like Tuckup [Canyon].
MH: Did you ever have cattle in Tuckup [Canyon]?
SS: Yes. Granddad always kept a bunch [of cattle there]. He [also] kept a bunch of half-scatterbrained horses there, [they were] wild cusses. Yes, he always had twenty-five or thirty head of horses and about that same number of cattle.
MH: Do you remember the story of “Old Man” White and how he [was] killed?
SS: Yes. “Old Man” White lived on the north side of the mountain and he had a [fairly] good spring there. I guess it was filed in his name. Ray and I finally got it, and we piped it down to Tuweep. They hired Rod Leavitt [and] he took his
caterpillar up there and brushed it all out. I guess there is a lot of water there, so I’m told; I never did see it. We could never get it to run much.
MH: Was “Old Man” White was killed over that spring?
SS: Some girl brought a bunch of horses up there to water them and he threatened her. She took the horses back down and told her dad. He brought [the horses] back up with her. I guess they got to jangling over what was said and what wasn’t said. The old boy took a shot at “Old Man” White and blew his shoulder off. I believe it was his shoulder. The old man would have died anyway. Gad, when he bought new clothes he just put them on over his old ones!
MH: [Laughter]
SS: I was scared of that old bird!
MH: You didn’t want to be around him?
SS: No, I didn’t want to be around him.
MH: Do you remember John Riffey, the [National Park Service] ranger at Tuweep?
SS: Yes. Riffey fell heir to the [National] Park Service caterpillar. He had a name for everything.
MH: That [caterpillar] was [called] “Desdemona.”
SS: Yes, he helped us put in some of the tanks when we piped [water] down to [the] lower Kent place. We put in a big steel tank. It was about ten feet across [and] ten feet deep. We poured a cement floor and made the tank out of sheet metal. Then we took some rubberized [material] [that we] put between the sheets of metal and bolted [them together].
MH: So [it] wouldn’t leak?
SS: So it wouldn’t leak, but eventually it did [start] to leak. When we sold [the land], it was still leaking quite badly. We boarded it with a dirt wall so it wouldn’t, but it still kept leaking. It would get between ─
MH: [The] seams on the metal?
SS: ─ [where] the sheets came together. Then they put a layer of, I don’t know what you call it, [but] they put it between [and] we would tar it up good and bolt it. It held [fairly well] for a long time.
MH: Is that tank still there today?
SS: Yes, I think it is. We used it for a long time and then the government scraped out a big pond down on the park side of the fence and we used that. I believe Riffey built that.
MH: When John Riffey went down there, was he actually there to oversee the grazing?
SS: John was down there about the time the Taylor Grazing [Act] came in, that was [June 28,] 1934. Yes, John did a lot of pond work. He built a good big pond just over the fence from Kent. That was where our cattle watered. We had a permit for 150 [head of cattle]. I have forgotten now, seems like it was [for] 150 head of cattle on that [permit]. He was way up this side of the lower end. There was a little spring [where] we used to camp when we went over to Tuckup [Canyon].
MH: [Was that] Saddle Horse Spring?
SS: Yes. It never did run much water.
MH: Who put the pump [in] that was out there? There was a little gas engine pump out at Saddle Horse [Spring]. Did you put that out there?
SS: [John] Riffey must have [put] that [in]. On a dry year you could drive your horses and get them a-tromping down and they would get down to water. A little seepage would come in and you could water them there. They would tromp it enough so the water would come seeping back in.
One year dad and I went down there and we couldn’t get any water to come, so we hobbled [the horses] out that night. They went on around the ledges there and up to, what was his name? All I knew him by was McCormick. He had a boy [who] took over [for] him. They had a spring down around from [Saddle] Horse Springs, [about] twenty miles [away], I guess. They built some corrals. They had a [fairly] good spring there but it was [full of] minerals. Gad, it would go right through you!
MH: [Laughter] You didn’t drink it?
SS: You could but you ─
MH: Wished you hadn’t!
SS: [Laughter] You could look down on that from up [on] top of Tuckup [Canyon]. We would go over there. You could ride out on that point, look down and you could see it. Dad told me, “Don’t drink much of that water because it will go right through you.” It sure did! Anyway, my dad followed our horses from no water at [Saddle] Horse Springs, followed them on around hobbled and came around McCormick’s spring. [The horses] knew where that [spring] was, so [the horses] got water there. [Dad] had to walk all that [way].
MH: He had to walk?
SS: I guess he must have walked thirty miles to get there. [Laughter]
MH: John Riffey had an airplane.
SS: He had a name for that too.
MH: It was called “Pogo.” I understand you took a ride in that [airplane] one time.
SS: Yes, I did. [Laughter]
MH: Did you want to?
SS: I didn’t want to go. [Laughter] We were cutting stray [cattle] up on the mountain. We put up a fence to keep the cattle from going up to Nixon [Springs] from Tuweep. We had the fence all built and I chopped down through the top of my foot. I had a good sharp axe [with] a short handle. Gad, I cut right down through my foot! [It] bled like a stuck horse. We got in the pickup and went down to Riffey’s [place] and [had] him fly me to [town].
MH: [Did he] fly you into St George?
SS: I guess Riffey must have thought it was serious, he didn’t even stop to warm his airplane up. He just taxied out there. We drove down to it and loaded me in. Oh gad, it was bleeding like a stuck pig!
MH: [Laughter]
SS: We came to this old airport [in St. George]. Riffey radioed in and my wife [Harvey Schmutz] came out to get me in her car. I guess they thought I was sure a sad looking creature. [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] You were lucky John had that airplane there!
SS: Yes, you bet!
MH: You may not have made it in without it. You might have bled to death.
SS: Yes, it [would have] been several hours in the pickup. He did me that [favor]. Ray took him out a barrel of gas ─
MH: [Laughter]
SS: ─ to pay for it. “Pogo” was a little Piper Cub, I believe..
MH: It was a Piper Cub.
SS: As I remember I sat behind him and it took about an hour to get to St. George in that little [airplane]. Yes, it was some trip!
MH: I bet it was! [Laughter] Where was [the] Witch [Pool]?
SS: What?
MH: [The] Witch [Pool] was a water catchment up on [Mt.] Trumbull but north of your place, I believe. That doesn’t ring a bell?
SS: No. You go up dad’s canyon and out on top we built a catchment [pond]. Let’s see, we used sheet metal for [the] apron. I don’t remember what they called it. It saved us two or three years [when] we kept our cattle up there all winter long. We built a sheet metal apron off the top of a knoll and about halfway down we put a valve in. I was sold on those [valves] [and] that was one good way of getting water.
MH: That was how John got his water; he had a catchment [pond] behind his cabin.
SS: The BLM [Bureau of Land Management] put one in further north near down quite a ways north. As I remember, [one] road came in this way and another one came in this way and they formed a vee. The BLM put [a catchment pond] in there with [a] plastic apron. I remember taking cattle up there [many times] because that was the only water in the winter time. That was a blessing. It was like drilling a well there. That was a good thing. Hell, I think we spent about $30,000.00 on the one we put in, and I guess the BLM must have spent nearly that much [also].
The road came in from Fredonia [Arizona] like this, down past there. Let’s see, who was that? He called it the Red Blanket Ranch. Hell, he came in [on] this road from Fredonia and went down about three miles along there. Gad, he built a big pond there. He had lots of water whenever I was there. A lot of our cattle would get over there so I hated the damn place! You would have to go get them! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] When you left St. George to go out to the ranch, which way would you go? Did you go up Quail Canyon and down to Bundyville [Arizona] or did you go over to Colorado City [Arizona]?
SS: [We went through] Colorado City.
MH: [Through] Colorado City and Clayhole [Wash].
SS: If we had to take a good-sized truck, we would go that way. We would go out to Hildale [Washington County, Utah]. [Ray] Esplin bought out Roy Woods and had a bunch of wells piped to the top of Cedar Ridge and piped it on to Clayhole Flats from there. Lindau Foremaster [had] a spring there. What did he call that? I think he called it Lost Spring. He piped [water] out to there too.
MH: When you sold your cattle, did you take them into St. George or truck them to Cedar City [Iron County, Utah?
SS: We [would] truck them to St .George. [At] first we trailed them in here ─
MH: How long would that take?
SS: About a week.
MH: [It took] about a week to push them in [here].
SS: That was slow! The Christensen brothers had about a 300-acre pasture there. They had plenty of water and we would trail [cattle] there and [leave] them for a week. They would eat all the feed off in that time! [Laughter] Then, what is that bank?
MH: Is it Zions [Bank]?
SS: No, it isn’t Zions [Bank].
MH: Wells Fargo [Bank]?
SS: No, there used to be a big-sized [hill] there. You could ride up on top and see all over the pasture.
MH: When you got the cows into St. George, [would] the buyer would come down and pick them up?
SS: No, then we would drive them on to Modena [Iron County, Utah].
MH: You would trail them all the way up to Modena?
SS: All the way.
MH: That would take a little while.
SS: [It would take] two weeks.
MH: Did you have good horses?
SS: We always had good horses in those days! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter]
SS: It they weren’t good horses, we would give them to somebody else and get better ones! [Laughter] Yes, we had lots of good horses.
MH: I think I [have] talked [with] you about this before: what was your favorite saddle?
SS: N. Porter, [from N. Porter Saddle and Harness Company in] Phoenix, Arizona.
MH: You liked [the] Porter saddle?
SS: Yes. Dad had one and he got one for me. A [fellow] named Buster Vaughn came out to ride for Jack. He went up into Wyoming or somewhere. He wrote dad a letter, “If you will send my belongings, my bed and personal [items], I’ll give you that saddle.” Oh hell, it was a beauty! It was a peach of a saddle. [It was] flower stamped. It was a good saddle [and] I was [very] proud of [it]! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] [Do] you still have it?
SS: Yes.
MH: I’ll be darned!
SS: Yes, my daughter has it now up in Ephraim [Sanpete County, Utah]. I [have] an old Hanley ─
MH: Hanley [was] from Oregon.
SS: ─ up there too. Uri Jordan used to own it. He punched cows for Jack for years and years. How in the hell did I get it from him? I have forgotten now.
MH: I’m going to ask you one question [that] I don’t think you are ready for, but I’m going to ask you anyway.
SS: [Laughter] Okay!
MH: What is it about that Arizona Strip that you [folks] just can’t get it out of your system? All of you, the Bundys, [the] Mathises [and] Schmutzes, you all want to go back on the [Arizona] Strip.
SS: Yes. [We call it] out south! [Laughter] I don’t know; we just liked it there. There is [a] lot of country out there and lots of cowboys. I guess there are lots of sheep men, too.
MH: Not many sheep [men] now, no sheep.
SS: No. When the BLM came in, they stopped the sheep from going any further south than the Bundyville schoolhouse. They stopped them there.
[END OF TAPE – SIDE ONE]
MH: They brought all the horses in?
SS: The Walking X [brand].
MH: The Walking X [brand] and whose outfit was that?
SS: Brooks, Vic Hail and [George W.] “Jockey” Hail.
MH: Did most of those old cowboys wear a gun?
SS: No, I haven’t seen one with a gun. Roy Woods was the last one that I ever saw wear a gun. Billy Bink used to carry one and [so did] Roy Woods. They were coming in with a herd of cattle one fall [and were] down [at] Willard Iverson’s place ─
MH: That would have been [in the] Main Street [Valley on the Arizona Strip].
SS: Yes. There was a [fellow] running the chuck wagon. I believe his name was “Ray” [Raymond] Holt. He saw Roy Woods riding up towards him and he was camped there. So he ran around to his bunk and got his rifle out. [He] put it by the hind wheels of the chuck wagon. When Roy Woods come blundering up there ─ [he] was an old dude! [Laughter]
MH: What happened? Did [they] get in a fight?
SS: They [started] to argue and Roy was going to shoot Holt. Holt said. “By gad, he is not going to shoot me, I’ll get him first”. He picked up his Winchester and walked around by the chuck wagon. I believe Woods took a potshot at him. He wasn’t much of a shot.
MH: He missed him?
SS: [Laughter] Anyway, Holt plunked him one. It went in here and up under his arm. His horse went loping off up by Iverson’s barn. They finally got [the horse] stopped and went down to Rosenberry’s homestead. There were usually a bunch of cars there. I think there was a [fellow] by the name of [inaudible] had a car down there. What the hell kind, I don’t know! They took him down there, loaded him in the car and brought him to St. George.
MH: Did he live?
SS: Yes, he lived and he always carried that big six-gun for years after that. The doctor here in St George took care of him.
MH: Let’s go back to [the] question about the [Arizona ] Strip. What is it that always brings you [folks] back?
SS: [Laughter] I just want to go [there]!
MH: You just want to go; you, Orvel [Bundy] and Reed [Miles] Mathis.
SS: Reed Mathis spent most of his life out there.
MH: Yes, and he still wants to go back there.
SS: He still goes back. [Laughter]
MH: He is ninety-six or ninety-seven [years old] now.
SS: Yes. I don’t know, it is just a big country and [a] lot of interesting [events] took place [out] there over the years.
MH: Do you think they should keep ranching out there?
SS: Ray and I did [ranch out there] until about ten years ago.
MH: Do you think they should [continue] letting [folks] ranch out there?
SS: I’d like to, but there isn’t any money in it. You are too damn far from the railroad and there isn’t any money in it. Ray and I managed to stay there for a long time because we always fed 300 or 400 head [of cattle] in the [St. George] Fields. We raised feed and kept a bunch of cattle here. But it is damned hard work [and] it isn’t worth it. Gad, by the time you figured up what you have [invested] in it, you would be a lot better off doing something else.
MH: But you still want to go back! [Laughter]
SS: Yes, I’ll go back every chance I get! [Laughter]
[END OF TAPE – SIDE TWO]
Description
Stanley “Stan” M. Schmutz was interviewed on February 8, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon- Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Credit
NPS
Date Created
02/08/2005
Copyright and Usage Info