Audio
Stories of Phantom Ranch - Terry Magda Mische and Cindy Burns
Transcript
Terry Magda Mische and Cindy Burns - Oral History Interview - December 31, 1999.
0:02
This is December 30th?
31st ! [laughter] new years.
31st, 1999.
0:11
Turn of the century. Some people say millennia.
0:13
We're here with Terry Mische and Cindy Burns, right?
0:16
I forgot my nametag.
0:19
I haven't got mine on yet.
Troublemaker!
0:20
Troublemaker!
0:22
TM!
0:23
Who together managed the ranch between 74?
0:30
I was here from ‘75 to ‘77 at the ranch, and Cindy…
I came in in March, ‘77 till about that same time in ‘78.
0:41
Oh OK.
0:42
And caught the tail end.
0:46
We were really on the tail end of a great run.
0:48
May, June, July, August, September, October, November, Thanksgiving, nine months.
0:55
Yeah, we were actually working together.
0:58
Seems like so much longer.
1:00
Well, we've continued, you know, we've gone off and on keeping in touch.
Right.
1:04
Anyway, so Terry got here first.
1:06
How did you come across?
1:09
It is amazing.
1:10
Amazing because I think of this as one of the really, truly life changing moments in my life.
1:16
That was a total, in retrospect, strange.
1:18
Did you know it then?
1:19
Oh, never knew it then.
1:20
Never knew it.
1:21
Pulled into the gas station, the guy pumping my gas, at the Chevron station on the South Rim.
1:28
I know from the University of Connecticut.
1:31
I'm 23 years old.
1:32
I asked him, how the hell did you get here?
1:34
And he said, oh, jobs are easy to get.
1:37
And so Jan, first clue, right?
1:40
It was Jan, Linda and I who all three ended up having long careers with Fred Harvey.
1:44
So you were college friends and you were traveling together, right?
1:48
We had just graduated.
1:49
It was a year after right cross-country trip, second time I've seen the Grand Canyon.
1:55
But first trail trip and we were going to hike rim to rim and Jan had injured her ankle.
2:01
And we hear that jobs are easy to get.
2:04
So we just put two and two together and said, hey, let's get jobs.
2:07
We'll hang out for a couple of weeks; we'll hike rim to Rim and then we'll be out of here.
2:13
Five years later, I finally left.
2:21
So we got jobs as waitresses.
2:24
Got fired in a day.
2:26
Yeah.
2:26
My first day on the job, we were canned.
2:29
This is a one – a one meal story.
2:31
That's another long story.
2:33
One meal at the El Tovar.
2:34
A breakfast.
2:35
You were waiting.
2:36
I was waitressing, Right.
2:37
We had lied on our applications, and we had lied and said that we knew how to tray waitress because we had done that together in the dormitory at the University of Connecticut.
2:47
You know, we'd held trays on our shoulders and bussed the doom.
2:50
So we felt that was close enough.
2:54
So we were, we got to be tray waitresses.
2:57
And we went down to the BA (Bright Angel) to waitress breakfast and it was incredibly disorganized.
3:04
Nobody told us what to do.
3:05
We had to figure everything out.
3:07
You knew what to do, right?
3:08
We were tray waitresses, right? [laughter]
3:10
But they didn't tell you where the salt and pepper was.
3:13
So then we're just ready to set up for breakfast.
3:15
And they say emergency at the El Tovar,
3:17
Someone's got to go to the ET.
3:19
So I volunteered.
3:21
Well, I got up to the ET and the method that we've been taught at the BA was when you got the order, you put the ticket up on a wheel and the chef cooked it up, the cook cooked it, up and gave it back to you.
3:33
I go up to the ET and I do that system.
3:36
I'm putting checks up on the wheel,
3:37
Well, after 2025 minutes I noticed the only handwriting on the wheel is mine.
3:43
So, I asked him, hey, how do you guys do this?
3:45
And they go, oh, we take the two plates, put the order on top of that, you lay in here and when it's done it comes out here.
3:52
So all my orders went in at once and all my orders came out at once. [laughter]
3:59
And I never waitressed.
4:01
You know, these guys were asking me for ketchup, and I was from the east.
4:05
People don't put ketchup on their eggs.
4:07
I just couldn't get it.
4:09
The poor man must have asked me 8 times. And then the toast slid off the plate. One time when I was going to serve, and I was faced with the dilemma of do you pick it up or do you ignore it?
4:24
So we got canned.
4:27
I made $8 in tips.
4:29
I never worked so hard in my life.
4:31
And you guys got canned.
4:33
We got demoted.
4:33
Still in your housing?
4:35
We got demoted, actually to, we got demoted to bus girl.
4:41
So we went out and had a couple beers at Hopi Point.
4:44
Then we went to be bus girls at Motor Lodge, and we decided that we knew why we'd gotten canned.
4:50
And the whole thing was such a farce to us that we were just kind of playing it up.
4:55
So we went to the Motor Lodge, and we told the woman there that there must be a mistake because we'd read the contract, and you weren't allowed to change jobs for 30 days.
5:04
Yeah.
5:05
So we knew you couldn't.
5:06
We must be an error, that we were changing from waitress to bus girl.
5:11
So, she got us really canned.
5:14
She was the one who got us fired and we went, we went to where, Bill Maxwell was GM at the time and we made appointment with him to tell him how ****** up this place was.
5:24
Before we left, we had our bags just about packed.
5:26
We were going to Las Vegas and that night we're in Rouser Hall.
5:30
And that night security came and busted us, knocked on the door really, it's like 11-12 at night and said we were under arrest for trespassing because we were terminated.
5:42
We had been fired and we were like, we have an appointment with Bill Maxwell.
5:47
We are we are not under arrest.
5:49
And if you pursue this, I would think it's a false arrest.
5:53
And he said, oh, my gosh, are you the three college graduates?
5:58
Because this was rather uncommon at the time.
6:00
And we said, yes, we are.
6:08
So he apologized and left.
6:10
And the next day we went to Bill Maxwell, and we told him what had happened to us, how we'd never gotten any training and how things were so ****** up and nobody cared.
6:19
And he said, I need people like you.
6:21
Will you stay?
6:22
But all I can offer you now is to be a maid.
6:25
And we said, hey, sounds great.
6:27
So we moved up from $0.65 an hour as a waitress to $1.25 as a maid.
6:33
And then we had three motorcycles with us that we'd hauled out.
6:36
Did you have a trailer?
6:37
Yeah, a trailer.
6:39
On back of my Jeep Wagoneer.
6:41
And so we became the motorcycle mobile unit for the maids.
6:45
Then we'd finish at Yavapai, and they'd meet us over at Motor Lodge
[brummm-rumm] [laughter] and go over there.
6:52
We had a ball.
6:53
The college graduate side.
6:55
We thought it was the best job.
6:56
Nobody bugged you, you know, You just did your job.
7:00
Did you have so many rooms you had to do in the day?
7:02
We had 16 rooms and when you finished, you were done.
7:06
And then if we got overtime, if we did more rooms, but we didn't have to.
Did everybody do their own separate rooms, or did you work as a team?
7:13
We worked as teams.
7:13
So you just.
7:14
Yeah, we blitz it.
7:15
Yeah.
7:15
Yeah.
7:16
Right.
7:16
Carrie Musser was head of housekeeping at that time.
7:20
So, then that was August or so.
7:25
So I was made a couple of months.
7:26
And then I always wanted to work in the gas station.
7:29
So I got a job for one month at the Chevron station. That fulfilled that fantasy.
7:36
And you decided it wasn't for you -or.
7:37
No, it's just, it was winter.
7:39
I had to change, you know, chains, snow tires.
7:42
Yeah, it was nasty.
7:44
So I went to work at, I think it was the front desk, Yeah.
7:48
And then there was a series of - if you hung around, you got promoted.
7:52
So by spring, I was manager of Trailer Village.
7:55
That was my first management job.
7:57
And then I managed the BA desk, the front desk, then the ET front desk, then the Yavapai front desk.
8:04
And then I burnt out.
8:06
You know, you kind of organize them and get them running good.
8:09
Yavapai is 350 rooms, you know, and nobody stayed more than the night.
8:13
You're just checking them in, checking them out all the time.
8:15
At least BA and ET, you know, there were people hung around a little longer.
8:19
So I went to Bill Maxwell, and I said, I want to manage Phantom Ranch.
8:24
And he looked at me and he goes, well, you know, I have a manager there now. [laughter]
8:30
And I said, I know, but I just want you to know, that's what I really want to do.
8:35
And I'm burning out.
8:35
And a month later, Glenn Hoge resigned.
8:38
And I came down to Phantom. I managed Phantom.
8:40
Why did he resign?
8:41
I don't know.
8:42
Burnout, probably.
8:44
Yeah.
8:44
The same thing that happened to most of us.
8:46
Because, you know, there was never any longevity like there is now.
8:50
If people stayed two or three seasons, that was kind of a long time.
8:56
Is that for Keith?
8:57
Right.
8:58
Exception to the rule
8:59
Exception to the rule.
9:01
Yes.
9:02
We're Speaking of he was here, what, 13 years down?
9:06
I don't know the total.
9:07
Like it was some long time.
9:09
Yeah, he was.
9:09
He., he took a break, though, once or twice.
9:12
Yes, he did.
9:13
For a couple years.
9:16
Seemed he and I worked down here together.
9:18
He was here when I got here, Of course, one of the few people who ended up staying because I had difficulty.
9:24
When I came down, I was from the outside, you know, and the people down here really resented a manager coming from the South Rim.
9:32
I'd worked here one month, One winter when they needed help up down here.
9:37
So I guess wasn't busy, right.
9:40
So I come down and worked at Phantom for a month.
9:43
So what was that like?
9:44
What type of resistances did you feel as a new manager?
9:47
Oh you know, it was very much, you know, it's a big hippie crowd.
9:53
Hated the tourists, you know, felt like that, you know, it always made jokes about the turkeys and stuff like that.
9:59
And I had a little bit of a different spin, you know, I kind of appreciated the tourists because it got me to be here and wanted us to be more efficient and little less lazy so that we could have more free time.
10:10
But this was more like, you know, anything got done when it got done.
10:13
Things.
10:13
There wasn't a long-range thing, you know, the bedspreads didn't get washed every so often, that kind of stuff.
10:19
It was a little tatty and people had a bad attitude.
10:23
So gradually due to the difficulties, you know, those people just kind of left and I got to create my own crew, and I changed the hiring policies in that I had to see people, kind of people come down to Phantom to interview, to be hired.
10:39
Previously they've been hired by the rim and we've gotten people had no idea what they were doing, hated it down here, and we're gone in a month.
10:47
So right after we got them trained, you changed that policy?
10:49
Yeah, with Maxwell. Well, Katie Callan came in at that time.
10:54
I think personnel changed, and I can't remember who was before Katie, but Katie supported that idea, and it was Katie and I who shifted it.
11:02
And so gradually we got a really good crew.
11:07
How long did that take?
11:09
Oh, man, I'd say it took a year and a half before that really started to weed out all the old timers and right, get the right new energy, get the new energy in right.
11:19
And people, I used to try required reading.
11:21
I don't think you had this, Cindy, but I had required, yes, I had people reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
11:30
Oh, perfect.
11:31
Right.
11:34
So then Cindy was one of the rare exceptions in that Katie said, I have this wonderful woman, you'll love her.
11:43 EDITED TO HERE
And I said, yeah, I've heard that before.
11:45
And Katie Kellen talked me into hiring Cindy's sight on scene.
11:49
So I was up in Oregon at the time in Portland, and she's been on a recruiting trip up there.
11:54
And, and, and that's when I went in and filled in an application and there was her and someone else, maybe Marsha was Marsha Hughes doing recruiting then?
12:04
I don't know.
12:05
Anyway, she takes my application and she immediately goes, I'm really, I'm dying to read your application.
12:14
You've taken such a long time writing it.
12:17
And, and I kind of went, oh, good.
12:21
Because the reason I was taking a long time was that I was kind of going, God, what year did I work there?
12:26
How long?
12:27
And I was fudging a bit, you know, on either end, a little longevity.
12:32
I look dependent on my big suit.
12:38
And so, and I had lived up in State Bridge, Colorado, outside of Vail, and it was kind of a remote area down on the Colorado River and in the upper stretches And where else I, oh, I'd lived in a, an apple ranch up in Northern California, which was outside of Redding, you know, about 20-30 miles, not as remote as here really, or a big bend where I am now.
13:05
But so she's going, oh, oh, she goes, she goes, look what I'm going to do I, I, I want you to go to Phantom Ranch.
13:15
She said right up front, she goes, but the manager down there likes to do her own hiring.
13:21
So I can't promise you, but I'm going to do my very best.
13:24
I mean, she laid it on the line, you know, and me, I'm going, Oh, am I on the Colorado River?
13:29
I've never been to Grand Canyon before.
13:31
And I'm thinking, right?
13:32
And I'm thinking, oh, da, da, da.
13:35
Oh, that sounds lovely.
13:36
You know, a ranch, right?
13:39
What's a ranch?
13:40
You know, I already knew what I knew nothing.
13:43
Ignorance is bliss, you know?
13:46
So she called me a couple weeks later, I guess I can't remember what the exact time frame, and said I had a job.
13:52
So I was all excited.
13:55
I fly here into Grand Canyon, and Richard Kilgore was my bus driver.
14:01
Yeah.
14:01
I love this story because I was like the only passenger on the whole bus.
14:05
And he's, he's going.
14:07
Oh, new employee, huh?
14:09
Yeah.
14:09
Yeah.
14:10
He says, well, where are you working?
14:11
I go, I'm going to phantom match.
14:13
Oh, they all say that.
14:18
Oh, yeah, everybody.
14:19
And I go, well, I'm going.
14:22
Really.
14:23
He didn't believe me.
14:25
You should have seen his shock next time he hiked down and saw me down.
14:28
There he goes.
14:29
You weren't kidding.
14:33
So he drops me off at personnel.
14:35
I check in and it's early in the afternoon and they say, well, you know, you can hike down if you want.
14:41
You know, right now.
14:43
So I said, OK, let me change my clothes.
14:45
I change my clothes.
14:46
I I walk out my overalls and Katie about drops her teeth because she's like, how did you you are Phantom ranch?
14:52
That's the uniform, you know, overalls and denim shirts.
14:56
That was the uniform then.
14:58
And so we called down there and to let him know we were coming and I said, well, does anybody need anything?
15:05
You know, and the, the construction crew that we're building the dorms.
15:11
This is March 77th.
15:13
That was, there was down here Bill Vercammen and you know, all those Tommy Lopez and Happy Hopi and Art, remember, Yes.
15:26
And all those guys anyway, so they were previously they were tents.
15:32
Yeah, there were tent tops.
15:34
There were canvas covered structures like frame structure, wood frame structure with two by four I would guess or something.
15:41
Probably pretty Hardy and and canvas covered.
15:44
And yeah, lightweight little door that you went in and there wasn't showers in them.
15:49
Oh, no, not at all.
15:53
And so there was a major remodel and I don't remember when it began.
15:57
It went on for quite some time.
15:58
So it was going in March 77 when you were here.
16:01
They were building the bunkhouse down there.
16:03
They did the bunkhouse done that.
16:05
They did a new Wrangler cabin.
16:09
They did the floor of the backroom in the lodge.
16:12
I remember we just had one through 4 cabins open.
16:16
So it was really reduced.
16:17
That's right.
16:18
Visitation.
16:19
Yeah.
16:19
The maintenance at all the cabins over here, tent tops, you know, because that was when I got here, they were kind of finishing that off and finishing off the bunkhouse because we were all, all the employees were living in cabins.
16:32
What, 5678 maybe?
16:37
We had eight and 8:00 and 9:00, the big ones open.
16:40
I think that's where maintenance was.
16:42
Maintenance was in one of those.
16:43
I think they're right here by the lodge.
16:46
Anyway.
16:46
It was really a great time to come down and get trained because nothing was going on, really.
16:51
I mean, the ranch is, you know, less than half capacity.
16:55
And of course, those were the days when we're only doing one meal.
16:58
We did one dinner, one breakfast, right?
17:01
We didn't do 2 like they do now.
17:03
We didn't have the lodge open.
17:06
Everybody checked in at the window there in the kitchen and the canteen window smaller than it is now.
17:12
I believe we had 12 plus Roy is my recollection that we were 13 including Roy Starkey, the maintenance man.
17:19
And two really I remember it was like a a crew of nine or something because somebody was always on days off, right.
17:28
So it was it worked out really well.
17:31
Yeah, that sounds right.
17:32
I think 9 was it.
17:33
Anyway, I go to Babbitt's and pick up the required bottle of Jack Daniels.
17:39
The request.
17:40
Yeah, the request I get on the trail and I just, you know, I was of course you'd.
17:49
It's overwhelming your first hike.
17:50
You never forget it.
17:52
And I get got to the skeleton point at the top of the red and whites and I saw the river for the first time.
17:57
And there was like this.
17:59
I had lived on the Colorado River and I was like this immediate coming home, soulful, embracing, amazing moment.
18:08
I'll never forget.
18:09
You know, it was just like I was almost in tears, you know, I mean, it was just like so awesomely overwhelming.
18:16
Like it was like, wow, river, you've gotten big because up there it's not much, you know, it's a little different than you ever forget that.
18:25
And and then walking, when I finally got here, walking in the back door and it was meal time, everyone was there.
18:34
It was kind of intimidating, you know, to walk in there.
18:36
Yes, it is.
18:37
But I kind of went gulp, yeah, gulp.
18:41
And somebody said, oh, you must be Cindy Burns.
18:43
And I kind of went, oh, no, they go away.
18:47
I'm already, oh, dear, I'm really, I'm in trouble.
18:49
I'm in big trouble.
18:51
And it was one of the trail crew guys.
18:54
And he goes, ah, you have something for me.
18:58
And I looked at him.
18:58
I go, are you Bill for Cameron?
19:01
And he wasn't.
19:02
Oh, I got him right away.
19:04
Very good.
19:06
Everybody was laughing.
19:08
I go, I'm in.
19:10
You're in.
19:14
Yeah, yeah.
19:15
Sydney catches on quick.
19:16
I was here.
19:18
I was here about a month, I think.
19:20
And the assistant manager, Dave Tobin burnout, you know, burnout factor can was still a big factor.
19:29
It was when I left in a year, a year afterwards I was burned out.
19:33
But anyway, funny, funny, funny, funny.
19:40
That's when I became assistant manager was then and when Tobin, when Tobin left.
19:47
And we were figuring this out yesterday.
19:48
It wasn't long month or so after Cindy got here.
19:52
So here was somebody who I was like resistant to hiring, you know, it turned out to be terrific, Changed the whole kitchen around, brought baking to the ranch.
20:01
We were eating one meal, swill dinners from my swill, swill, swill from Mikey Humphreys and Cindy, you know.
20:12
So then you came and was Kimberly here then Kimberly soon after, another excellent chef.
20:18
Yeah, even more so.
20:19
Cindy and Kimberly really changed that whole thing.
20:21
We started eating good.
20:23
Yeah.
20:24
And then Cindy became assistant manager in a month.
20:27
Her brother Billy came down a month later.
20:29
So what were some of the conditions when you guys got here?
20:32
And then what did you have the power to change to make it run better or to make the quality better?
20:39
Well, you know, it was easy to make it more efficient.
20:42
That wasn't hard attitude, you know, was as I mentioned, the kind of the big thing and you know, I think we had this is my first management job.
20:55
I'd never known about managing anything, you know, other than managing the front desk, which and my job there people here too was to manage systems more, you know, get efficient systems and here it was people.
21:08
So it's getting people to, you know, kind of hiring the people who shifted to that attitude of, you know, this is fun.
21:15
I'm glad to be here and weren't burnt out old hippies.
21:18
And I'm not mean to denigrate the crew before, you know, but there was that difference.
21:26
And we just did what we were told essentially.
21:29
You know, we've had people come in and people went out.
21:32
I really wasn't much of A manager in retrospect.
21:35
You know, I kept the books and I tried to make functions run more efficiently and basically, you know, resisted the addition of two meals.
21:46
John Hyatt had wanted us to do that and I had been able to talk him out of it.
21:51
The hyper Stew meal plus the steak meal for that because we were so happy down here.
21:56
I really didn't want us working harder to be known.
22:02
You did.
22:02
You put your feet foot down for a Goodyear.
22:04
So I didn't pay for that, right.
22:07
And it was really before the Canyon was totally overrun.
22:11
I mean, it is.
22:13
I'm just, of course, it's a busy week that we hiked down this time.
22:17
But I'm appalled at the number of people on the trail coming in and out of here.
22:22
Day hikers, overnighters, everybody.
22:25
It's like, yeah, we had vacant days at the ranch, you know, days were zero days, just no mule riders came down from sometimes couple days in a row and then really no meals to show you the difference in the trend.
22:38
There weren't really that many hikers then.
22:40
No coming down to the campground or to fill the dorms here.
22:45
You know, there really weren't as many hikers then.
22:49
So the dorms were empty.
22:50
But but it was, it was, it was just starting to change right then.
22:54
I'd say 77 because each year sort of was busier and the the short months were, you know, fewer and fewer.
23:05
The the slow days were fewer.
23:07
Well, just the increased publicity was like outside magazine and people writing about hiking down and right, That happened a little later.
23:14
Yeah, a little later, but right.
23:16
But we had, you know, it wasn't that well known.
23:19
Phantom Crick was unknown.
23:20
It was a it was a ranch kept secret.
23:23
You know, the mysteries and the everyone Phantom Creek weren't allowed to tell anybody, right?
23:28
Don't tell your buddies who come down from the rim.
23:30
You know, only very special exceptions were made and everybody had a great integrity about that.
23:36
Swimming holes or fishing holes, just the Creek, just so there was a place that nobody knew about, you know, and nobody, you know, there were very few people that hiked to Upper Phantom, certainly nobody from the rim.
23:46
The only people ever did that were ranchers or avid hikers, you know, like Leafer yourself, probably.
23:52
Now, were you here or I guess you were here after there was supposedly a bunch of people tried to set up a little enclave up there.
23:59
Oh, that happened much later or but I don't think that happened before.
24:05
Wasn't that later after.
24:06
I I haven't heard this story.
24:07
Yeah, some people like made an encampment.
24:10
Right.
24:10
Right.
24:11
And they couldn't get in.
24:12
They couldn't get evicted.
24:14
I think that was early 80s, but I'm not sure.
24:16
Keith might, you might ask.
24:17
Yeah, question because do you know of it being before Mike?
24:21
I seem to remember it being right about the time they took the pool out.
24:25
Oh, way back when, when before there was Backcountry permits and then there was like 1 summer where they.
24:31
That makes sense.
24:32
Realizes it was an Easter, Easter week, and there was like 400 people or something trying to camp down in Phantom Ranch and the beach and everything and wow, the Rangers just said, whoops, we should, this should be permitted 'cause there's this, it's getting out of the zoo.
24:49
Yeah.
24:50
Good thing, though, really, that they did too, because, yeah.
24:56
So what stories come off the top of your head?
25:00
Funny stories.
25:01
You said there were personalities that came down that you waited on some Cindy.
25:05
Cindy had the opportunity to wait on some famous people.
25:08
Well, movie stars are, you know, celebrity types.
25:11
I got to Peter Fonda and Brooke Shields when she was about 12 years old, came down the river and did some filming for a terrible movie called Wanda Nevada, right?
25:23
Remember that?
25:24
And I never saw the movie, but they stayed like 3 or 4 nights here at the ranch and did some filming up the camp, up Bride Angel.
25:33
And so they had, you know, a whole movie crew here staying at the ranch.
25:38
It was really quite fun.
25:40
So the first day they came in, I got to serve beer to Peter Fonda.
25:45
And then throughout that time, you know, people were playing backgammon in the backroom every, you know, it was, they were in and out of the backroom all the time.
25:53
And Brooke Shields and her mother were here.
25:57
Terry Shields, she's a thrill.
26:00
But I, I got to beat Brooke Shields at Backgammon.
26:06
It was really quite pathetic because poor girl, she was like 12 years old and I, she'd always, I guess she'd always been let to win.
26:14
And when she lost, she was just very upset.
26:17
She goes, oh, I must have done something wrong because I lost.
26:20
It was like, whoa, no, no, it's nothing like that.
26:23
It's just a game.
26:24
You know, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, you know, Yikes.
26:29
So that was that was I was glad when they were gone, though.
26:33
Were you involved with?
26:34
Were you?
26:34
No, Don Weir was the manager and it was it was classic because he goes when he found out that these this movie thing was going to happen, he and it was like it must have been four days because he he immediately looked at me and I was still assistant manager.
26:50
He was the new manager and he, he looked at me right away.
26:56
He goes, He says, oh, I've worked with movie people before.
27:00
I'm out of here.
27:01
It's all yours.
27:02
I'm taking days off now.
27:06
And he usually stayed for his days off because I don't think he was very fond of hiking.
27:10
But he hiked out.
27:13
Hiked out?
27:14
I think so, yeah.
27:16
Whoa.
27:16
Now I remember they violated something with their permit with the ruins down on the river and they they wanted to film in the ruins and the park told them no, but they did anyway.
27:27
And I wonder if it's in the film.
27:29
Then the Park Service said, well, you can't fly your equipment out.
27:34
So remember they had like like 50 backpackers that they movie company had to hire to carry all their gear out.
27:42
Right.
27:42
I forgot about that.
27:44
Were you here that evening when everybody was coming into Canada?
27:47
Right.
27:47
That's right.
27:48
I totally forgot about that.
27:50
The only thing I remember was that this is the story I was telling you yesterday.
27:56
Brooks, Mother Terry Shields.
27:58
I guess the rumor, you know, the scuttlebutt on her is that she was a total ***** you know, and, but not so much a ***** but ultra manipulative.
28:09
Incredible.
28:10
She got really drunk the night before.
28:13
She wanted to fly out.
28:14
She wanted to fly out to go to church on Sunday.
28:18
When's math and where, you know, not here, you know, sorry to have your own little, you know, meditation or whatever.
28:27
But she couldn't understand why they wouldn't get helicopters to fly them out because it was really, it was just when they were really starting to cut out as many helicopter flights as possible.
28:39
You know, it had been pretty busy.
28:41
And then it was like, OK, we have to cut this back because it's just too disruptive.
28:46
And so the night before they were leaving, she got really drunk.
28:52
And the next morning she brought me her boda bag and said, fill this with red wine.
28:59
And she didn't eat any breakfast.
29:00
She just drank.
29:01
She was a smoker.
29:02
She smoked cigarettes.
29:03
And so they go off on mules.
29:07
She wasn't going to hike.
29:08
She was going to take the mules out, you know, and she get they get to the tip off and she's vomiting.
29:14
So they call in the helicopter and I mean it was totally premeditated on her part.
29:19
She was going to make herself sick and get a flying out.
29:23
I just thought, wow, that woman look out.
29:25
That's going to some length.
29:26
So she's very mischievous that one.
29:33
I forgot about the hikers though.
29:34
That was a classic Sherpa.
29:36
But it was all after dark, if I remember, and there was like 50 of them.
29:40
And it was like all the whole, the the finest backpackers in the Canyon, in the community.
29:51
And they took, they came in the ride of dark and we're hiking out with this stuff.
29:56
And you got paid £50 or $50.00 for £50.
30:00
It was a dollar a pound.
30:01
It was a lot then.
30:02
Yeah, that was a lot of money then.
30:05
That's a fair amount of weight.
30:07
And some of the some people who are a little stronger, you know, they try to take 70 lbs, right?
30:12
God, the changes in the ranch.
30:21
Yeah.
30:23
And mostly by by garnishing a a crew with a good attitude.
30:29
It was like having a chant the way I look back on it.
30:32
And partly because my brother was here at the time as well, my younger brother Bill.
30:38
And how did did you get him here?
30:40
Did you call him?
30:41
Yeah.
30:42
I had to talk her into it.
30:43
Of course.
30:45
You know, she was very hesitant.
30:47
Once again, I'm going.
30:48
But he's my brother and he's, you know, he's a he's in in.
30:54
He's got a great, incredible sense of humor.
30:57
So he was just an incredible positive attitude and different things.
31:01
But.
31:03
But being down here and working down here and our, our attitude was do your chores, do a good job, go play.
31:12
It was like having a a second childhood.
31:15
And with my brother here, it was like having a second childhood when we weren't trying to kill each other, you know, so we could really enjoy each other and play when we were kids growing up.
31:25
Well, yeah, every kid, all kids do, you know, and anyway, so that was, so you got to see each other in a different context, Yeah, as adults, but still being able to play, you know, and that's our chores were right, you know, very easy, good functioning, had lots of fun doing those.
31:47
And then we could go play because we, we did split shift then, right.
31:51
And that's really was our MO.
31:52
We played a lot.
31:54
We worked in the morning, got people out, did the beds, and then people were off for usually 3-4 hours.
32:01
Go hiking?
32:02
Yeah, down to the beach at Roy's Beach or swim at the mouth or up Phantom Creek.
32:07
You know, left enough time for a lot of local roaming and playing together.
32:12
Sometimes it would just be like half a dozen people would go be down at the mouth of the Creek hanging out.
32:19
Yeah, it was a wonderful.
32:21
It was a great time.
32:23
Did you reorganize the work schedule as far as people's rotations?
32:28
Well, we work 10 and four, much as I think had been done for a long, long time.
32:34
And I don't think there was that much reorganization of the chores that had to be done.
32:38
One thing you did, though, I remember, because I had to make out the schedule a bunch of times, you never put people working together that didn't really like to work together, you know, So you're really conscious.
32:50
And that helped keep everybody working smooth and happy.
32:55
And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a lot, but it was a good idea to pay attention to because then everybody was happy, everybody stayed happy, right?
33:03
And we had, we rotated what you did a lot.
33:06
Remember we used to do it for I think 3-4 days, you know, so the motor lodge would the, the morning lodge would be yours for 3-4 days.
33:14
People like that better than working a day and having somebody else do it a day because people were kind of possessive, you know, and they had their standards right.
33:23
You know, they like to have it really clean or and different people contributed different things.
33:27
You know, different people who did morning lodge had different areas they really like clean.
33:31
So things kept very nice really and it was just so effortless.
33:36
It was really effortless.
33:38
One of the best things got it really smooth that you implemented was every week we would have there would be in the backroom there a piece of butcher paper, big piece of just tacked to the cupboard.
33:50
There felt pen.
33:52
It was the ***** list.
33:53
If you had a gripe, if something was getting to you, you wrote it down.
33:57
And every Sunday at that time, Fred Harvey would have a keg on the rim, remember, for the employees.
34:02
Oh yeah, part of the recreation.
34:04
Terry said, well, since we can't partake in the in the keg, she got OK to have two cases of beer on Sunday, free beer on a Sunday.
34:16
And so at Sunday noon, we all get together for lunch and beer.
34:22
We'd take down the butcher paper and go over the list.
34:25
What's this all about?
34:26
What's this all about?
34:28
And people get a chance to to, you know, bring their griefs to the surface.
34:34
And 99% of the time nothing would change, right?
34:40
It didn't have to, but it didn't matter because you knew that that person that really, you know, you'd try to accommodate their grief or whatever, you know, their their complaint.
34:49
And I remember Keith was very concerned that when it wasn't a muddy day that you sweeping the floors was just fine.
34:58
You didn't have to sweep and mop, which is one of the main jobs.
35:02
So from that was the only thing that it was like from then on it was like, well, is it the Keith Green method today, which is sweep only, sweep only, or is it S and Ms.
35:14
and M?
35:14
Yeah, sweep and mop.
35:18
So it was really, it was really a good way to keep good morale because like I said, nothing would usually change, but it would be over for that person, you know, they get it out of their system.
35:29
Was that the first time, to your knowledge that there was that kind of a Yeah.
35:32
I don't think there had been staff meetings before that voicing right feelings.
35:38
Well, it certainly knew from the previous crew that there was that undercurrent, you know, because wherever whoever you visited with, there was a whole little ***** list that was going on in a gripe session, right, That was happening.
35:47
So it's just a way of bringing it to the surface and not having it underneath.
35:52
When you were there, did you watch anybody go from being enthusiastic and excitement to just burning out and leaving?
36:00
Yeah.
36:00
What causes that down here?
36:04
Well, for some people, it was girlfriends or boyfriends on the rim.
36:12
And, you know, remember Mikey hiking up a lot?
36:14
He didn't burn out for that reason.
36:15
But, you know, sometimes your interest just went elsewhere and people were hiking up and down.
36:19
They would burn out.
36:21
But I would guess, you know, routine.
36:24
Yeah, routine.
36:25
And then there was a greater sense of, well, the time came and the time went, you know, that compared to the longevity now, right, of people saying that it had happened.
36:34
You'd gotten, you know, your experience, you'd worked at the bottom of the Grand Canyon and ready to move on.
36:39
It was much more movable nomadic culture at that time.
36:47
You know, you kind of worked in cool subculture, really worked in places and moved around.
36:53
And anybody who stayed a couple years, that was an enormously long time for me.
36:57
Why I left was a couple of people.
37:01
So we had built this stellar crew that just hummed together.
37:05
You know, it was really much like this crew, much like now, brothers and sisters, lots of affection for.
37:10
Yeah, Yeah.
37:11
And there was a sense that you were living in, you know, working with your family.
37:15
You attribute any of that success to your selecting those people.
37:20
Well, I think, you know, it was, it was a, a compatible group.
37:25
Maybe that had something to do with that, you know, because I tried to ferret out what was important to people and that spiritual aspect or that relationship with the Canyon.
37:35
I didn't realize in my mind that that's what I was looking for.
37:39
But that was what I was looking for, you know, for a deep connection to the place in which we were essentially stewards and could serve the tourists and partake this great bounty of being here.
37:52
Yeah, that's what we held in common.
37:55
And that was.
37:55
And that was what made life easy and a great spirit of cooperation.
37:59
You know, Moran has the same thing.
38:00
He's one of his 10 rolls or something, you know, is remember, if you leave, don't, don't leave a mess.
38:06
If you leave it, the person after you has to clean it up, and that's somebody you care about.
38:10
So that's really why it ran so well.
38:13
And then there were a couple of key people for me for whom the time came, it was time to go.
38:21
And that was Kimberly Sweet and Dave Cooley.
38:24
They both gave me their notice in early November, I think.
38:28
And, and at that point, I thought, wow, you know, yeah, it's going to, there's going to be, it's winter's coming.
38:35
They'll be in attrition because we had to pare down in winter and, but normally people came back.
38:40
That's right, people, you know, the we pair seasonal, Yep, quite a bit.
38:44
We were down this 8 employees, I think in the winter or so in the winter, I'm just guessing at that number that popular then, right?
38:51
We couldn't support it, right?
38:54
And of course, they were the best months to be here, to be here.
38:59
So Kimberly and and Dave were leaving and I saw it, you know, there was just a flash of it's, it's good.
39:06
There's we're at the peak.
39:08
We're at the peak.
39:10
You know, people are going to leave.
39:11
We're going to go through that cycle of disintegration and reformation.
39:16
You couldn't do it anymore, right?
39:18
And it was, it was a very conscious decision of mine that I was going to leave it at the peak.
39:23
I wasn't going to ride it out.
39:24
I wasn't going to try and make it happen again or create, you know, keep going with trying to have a great crew.
39:31
This was such a wonderful, fantastic experience that I decided, you know, now's the time to go.
39:38
So it had pretty much taken me that whole time there to build the crew that you have.
39:42
Yeah, right.
39:43
Really, I guess when you, when I look back, since Cindy would certainly be a big part of that.
39:47
You're talking nine months that we had the stellar activity.
39:52
So that's yeah.
39:53
And that which fits with about a year and a half that it took for to create that.
39:57
The Winter Before You Came was a really good one too, just because we were.
40:01
It was very low activity and we had some folks.
40:05
That were good.
40:06
So probably the good old days of 0 days, zero days, 0 guests at the ranch.
40:13
We'd all eat in the front room.
40:14
And that's right, sit down dinner.
40:16
That's right.
40:17
We had sit down dinners in the front row and people kind of dress up.
40:22
We started have remember we'd had, we started having cocktail parties.
40:27
We'd set up a bar in the back and it was amazing because, oh, a cocktail party.
40:33
People would dress up, they put on their best manners and they'd have polite conversation with each other.
40:38
It was, it was quite a far cry from the beer brawl in the back.
40:42
You know where, yeah, people are screaming for attention.
40:45
I got a better joke or I beat you at cribbage.
40:49
You're #19 you know.
40:51
Oh, God, yeah, it's true.
40:53
I surprised each other with our ability to have manners.
40:56
I guess that was it.
41:00
We could take our crude sails time for a bit.
41:05
One of the things we did a lot was have wild Risk games.
41:10
Billy brought that in, Didn't it didn't happen until about that time, Billy.
41:14
And you were playing Risk, right?
41:16
But Linda brought the game in.
41:17
Linda Lowry and and then Billy, Billy really changed it because when Billy came, he did have, as Cindy reported, a fantastic sense of humor.
41:29
And we created costumes and props.
41:34
Yeah.
41:34
So as you took over the world, you know, you put on took over the country or that.
41:37
Yeah.
41:37
As you took over the country on your way to hopefully taking over the world, you would dress in that garb and have that accent, make a little speech, right?
41:48
Have a prop, have a prop props from different areas.
41:50
And when you lost that continent, you, it was very ceremonial.
41:56
You handed over the prop to the to the winner, right.
42:01
And someone, the best part though, is someone would go, I'm going over.
42:04
We'd be often in the manager's cabin playing Risk and I'm going over to get a beer.
42:10
Does anyone want one or anything from the lodge?
42:13
And they'd scamper off and a couple about 10 seconds later someone goes, oh, I also need something.
42:19
So they'd scamper off.
42:20
And you knew they were making a secret alliance together to gang up on everybody else.
42:25
And then it would be OK, they're in a secret alliance and they're in a secret alliance.
42:29
Who's going to break the alliance first?
42:32
Oh, for the world it got.
42:33
And then the betrayal scenes were incredible.
42:36
The betrayal.
42:37
Oh, arguments break the alliance.
42:39
Big speeches.
42:40
Big speeches.
42:41
Oh, we had games that went on for days and days.
42:45
Oh, you just reached.
42:46
Oh, yeah.
42:46
We would finally have to break at one point in the evening, and then we'd pick it up the next night.
42:51
Yeah, we didn't.
42:53
We do a week at one time until we figured out that you could have one killer war, one dice of Beast boom for the world and it would be over.
43:02
It got all.
43:03
It was like the long ending burnout.
43:09
The other things that we used to do in the evenings were streak the Lodge.
43:13
Oh, I wasn't wondering if you were.
43:17
I wasn't going to mention that.
43:19
That's all we need to say.
43:21
Streak the law.
43:22
We, we have to admit we did do that.
43:23
It was in the era of streaking.
43:25
It was nothing uncommon for most of the world at that point.
43:29
What was the route back through the back door, front door out through the out through beer hall?
43:35
But this was after the everyone was in bed, right?
43:38
I mean, it wasn't it was for us, not for them, right?
43:41
the US and them didn't really.
43:43
We knew we had we had limits.
43:47
But The thing is, somebody announced they were going to streak the lodge.
43:50
If it was summertime, everyone else had to be in the lodge to throw water on him as they went bomb.
43:56
That was a receding line almost.
44:00
We had big water fights, big water fights, major people dropping balloons off of the roof.
44:08
5 gallon buckets, a word, right?
44:11
The hose dish, hose.
44:13
You know where you squirt the dishes off?
44:16
That was a mighty.
44:16
That's how we cleaned the walls.
44:22
Oh, God.
44:23
And then we read stories at night.
44:25
We had oral readings.
44:26
We would be reading a book.
44:27
Like I remember we were reading VCR.
44:30
See.
44:30
Right.
44:31
Oh, you never had the VCR.
44:32
Oh, no.
44:33
Oh, no.
44:34
Did you have the movie projector sometimes that you should show movies?
44:37
We showed Roy did Roy's confiscated ***** films from his friend Johnny, somebody who worked for the FBI.
44:50
They were Roy's films, these great old ***** flicks.
44:54
It was awesome.
44:56
We'd put them on the sheet in the bunkhouse and we'd each have darts so we could throw a dart at the film at any moment.
45:03
Oh, that's right.
45:04
Remember, that's right.
45:05
We're so goofy.
45:07
Anything, you know, look what happens when you don't have TV, you know, or VCR as you just write everything is.
45:14
We were easy humorous for entertainment.
45:16
Yeah, we everybody had an imagination.
45:18
Very creative.
45:19
Very creative.
45:20
So you took turns reading to each other.
45:22
Yeah, we had.
45:23
We would pick a book.
45:24
We would as a group, decide what book, you know, had enough mutual interest.
45:28
And I remember reading some Ann Rand.
45:29
We read The Fountainhead.
45:31
And So what we would do was that's dating us take turns reading, right.
45:36
So you'd read till you got tired and passed the book and the next person would read.
45:40
Would that also happen over in my cabin?
45:43
We'd come over after dinner.
45:45
Do that.
45:48
And always taking walks, of course, up the Canyon, down the Canyon, do the lookout.
45:54
You know, it was, that was our entertainment.
45:58
We had a great.
45:58
Yeah, that was our entertainment.
46:01
Couldn't you generalize about the visitors back then that took the mule trip down as far as what they had in common or, well, more neat.
46:12
Yeah, I think they had in common is that none of them had ridden on a big animal like that before.
46:20
They really ran the gamut.
46:21
Yeah, they had a tough one.
46:25
The hikers were, you know, as Cindy mentioned, fewer and far farther in between.
46:30
And then around Thanksgiving, we would often have repeaters, you know, who would come back, would do longer hike.
46:35
So that was another nice thing about winter was the turnover.
46:38
It was less.
46:39
You got to know people a little better.
46:40
People didn't know about the fishing then really.
46:43
It was just very isolated to a few people on the rim and down here that would fish when I got here in 77.
46:50
But by the time I left in 78 from the ranch, and that's when I worked for the Park Service on the river for about another five seasons, I think, down here.
47:03
So I was in and left the ranch after I left the ranch.
47:05
I left because I got a volunteer job as a cook on the river Ranger patrol that first year.
47:12
I worked that first season for him and then they got a paid position for me the next four years, I guess four or five years.
47:21
But Cindy learned in that Colorado in that time, you know, fishing, the word had gotten out and the the days of the big lunkers, you know what I mean?
47:36
1098, nine, 10 LB rainbow trout.
47:40
Wow.
47:40
You know what was over?
47:42
Because they were all pushed and they were all fished out.
47:46
Yeah, yeah.
47:48
Topping was one of the first avid, avid fishermen, fishermen down here.
47:52
Marsic, too.
47:53
I think Marsic liked the fish.
47:54
I remember one time I was never into fishing because I'd throw it in once in a while and I didn't catch anything.
48:02
And so one time George Marsic came into the lodge and said there's a fish right here in the pool.
48:07
Come now.
48:09
Handed me the pole and I caught my first phantom.
48:11
My only one and only.
48:14
Right.
48:15
Just right there.
48:16
Coached by George.
48:17
It was fun.
48:18
That's sweet.
48:21
Yeah.
48:22
Yeah.
48:24
And then we had some cool hiking visitors.
48:29
Harvey Bouchard came down, I think Harvey was, Harvey was staying in the campground I think.
48:36
So he just came up for a visit for a few hours, didn't he?
48:38
I don't remember.
48:39
We didn't get a lot of him.
48:40
I remember feeling, as I was saying to you last night, Mike real shy about, you know, quizzing him about the different routes and stuff.
48:47
And he was, he was older then too, and he was shy also.
48:52
And then Emery Gold came down when he was right around 100.
48:57
He hiked out.
48:57
No, he got flown in by chopper with Maxwell.
49:01
That picture, right?
49:04
Yeah.
49:05
And I, I was down then for some reason.
49:06
I wasn't managing them, but I was down and got to be here with him at that time.
49:11
Wow.
49:11
Yeah.
49:13
Yeah.
49:15
Those are the special ones I remember.
49:17
And there probably were many more.
49:19
One time a guy came down from Arizona highways, James Tallon, and did a article on the ranch and on hiking in the Canyon.
49:28
That was like 77, I think.
49:34
Were there was there any unusual emergencies that happened or medicals that you were involved with or?
49:39
Well, remember Terry Stain, She was allergic to Terry Soler got bit in the rock house.
49:46
I had a bad reaction scorpion and we had to fly her out and never the usual things.
49:52
I think they flowed people out a little more.
49:56
I broke my ribs and got flown out.
49:57
I broke 5 ribs.
49:58
How did that happen?
50:01
I was we had just gotten a helicopter in and received a case of wine and I was walking into my cafe so excited, holding the case of why I'm very excited.
50:10
And I had been taping.
50:11
Norman had given me, I bought Norman's reel to reel.
50:14
This states us again.
50:16
So there was a stack of albums on the floor.
50:18
I didn't see him because I had this humongous case that I was holding and slipped on the stack of records and just went flying and came down over there on Armchair Records.
50:28
Zip Records.
50:29
Yeah.
50:30
Albums.
50:30
Big albums.
50:31
Yeah.
50:31
And they're just like 33 Ice things.
50:35
Yeah, 33.
50:36
So I broke my ribs doing that, but I did not drop the wine.
50:41
Good news.
50:45
Yeah.
50:46
The case was preserved.
50:48
And then Linda, myself and Dave Cooley flew out on that trip.
50:53
We had lots of flights out.
50:55
We most employees got to fly out, I'd say 3 * 2 three times with the construction that was in.
51:02
And Lopez Airlines, as it's called, Tommy Lopez got people on a lot.
51:07
Yeah.
51:09
And there were smaller copters and some pretty perilous experiences.
51:14
I remember 1 of just barely clearing a piece of a red wall as we were flying up, you know, getting buffed around.
51:22
Yeah.
51:23
And you know, it was bad weather.
51:25
But those were those non pilots.
51:27
They were incredible.
51:28
All right, so between between the two of you, what made a stellar staff?
51:38
Maybe touch on some of the personalities fun that stand out.
51:43
But the people like that made the staff how they were different.
51:48
Everyone was extremely different and had come from different backgrounds and adds.
51:54
I mean, you know, just like every mankind.
51:56
But it became, you know, everyone's different.
51:59
But it becomes so obvious down here.
52:01
And we just had great respect for each other.
52:03
So how did all these different type of people or unique people pull together as a team though?
52:10
It was just an attitude.
52:12
It was just an attitude all for one and one for all.
52:14
And, you know, help out where you can and you realize that if you're doing extra work, it was really quite gratifying because you were helping out your brother or sister.
52:25
I mean, it was it was as simple as that.
52:27
It was a family orientation, really, right.
52:30
Everything you did made somebody's life easier and your life easier.
52:36
And it all went around like that.
52:38
And it.
52:39
And the love of the Canyon, yeah, it perpetuated itself that on itself, it grew just like the opposite end.
52:46
If someone's got a bad attitude, people can fall into that attitude too.
52:51
So it's kind of an interesting, I always thought it was an interesting sociological study.
52:56
And if I were a socio sociologist, I could probably tell you exactly what you want to hear.
53:01
But you know, you know, in those terms.
53:04
But basically it was, you know, it was almost like a religious cult.
53:10
No, but that but very, you know, very always looking and wanting to make life easy so we could go play.
53:21
That's basically, it was very simple format.
53:25
The formula worked.
53:27
And that sums up the attitude that I came into.
53:29
That was the other side of that, which was do as little as possible, you know, So that created an environment of slacking off and discontent.
53:37
Yeah.
53:38
Because, you know, some people griped about what other people didn't do.
53:41
That was a real, that could be a real dividing point if you had people that didn't pull their weight 0 and then we didn't have that.
53:47
That's it.
53:48
Everybody pulled their weight.
53:49
That's right.
53:49
Pauses.
53:57
I have one claim for fame here and that, and I didn't even remember it, but Keith said I was the one who got the mail by mule stamp.
54:04
Oh, yeah, you do.
54:06
Right.
54:06
With my idea.
54:07
We got the stamp made and flagged out.
54:10
Is it the same stamp here?
54:11
No.
54:11
Well, it's the same same exact design.
54:15
Right.
54:15
Right.
54:18
That's right.
54:18
Yeah.
54:21
And then, of course, there was a change that followed us, which Cindy knows more about than I do.
54:25
You know, there's like these genres, these periods of, you know, activity and mine was different from ours, was different from the one that preceded me.
54:36
Of course, each manager had their own style, so brought something different.
54:40
And then they changed.
54:41
Fred Harvey changed what they wanted down here.
54:44
And although I recommended Cindy to become manager, that was not what happened.
54:48
And, you know, they moved into more cowboy mode.
54:52
Can you describe maybe that transition?
54:55
And then, well, it was, it was like when Terry decided to leave.
54:59
Was that a surprise?
55:00
Well, I can see not really, not really a surprise.
55:05
Well, it was kind of, I could just say really coming that she was, I could see it getting restless or something, getting tired, tired of the routine, losing the losing the energy, losing the edge, you know, and the transition was, was actually pretty traumatic because, you know, I guess partially because we assumed that I would be moved into the management position at least in the interim.
55:35
But that didn't happen at all.
55:37
Most of the crew feel that way too.
55:38
Or that was illogical.
55:40
That was illogical.
55:41
I would say the rim, of course, was never logical.
55:44
So they, they brought in this guy who didn't do paperwork, who let the wranglers have charge accounts on beer and really in a lot of ways made the ranch less money making than it already was because very slack.
56:02
You know, he I guess when he quit or left, they found like thousands of dollars in his drawer that hadn't been put in a deposit.
56:14
You know, at, I mean, anyway, we don't need to talk about that.
56:18
But it was quite different.
56:21
Quite different.
56:21
It was.
56:22
So it was a shock to you then?
56:24
Yeah, it was a shock to me.
56:25
And at, you know, and it was there was some disintegration because instead of All for One, then it was us and him.
56:35
You know, there was definitely a division at the time.
56:39
Fred Harvey wanted to bring the Western image down.
56:44
And Don had come from Montana and a great guy.
56:50
I really like dot a lot.
56:51
You know, I didn't like him then, of course, because I didn't know him, but got to know him.
56:56
He was down here quite a few years and not to know him when I was working on the river.
57:01
In and out and all that.
57:02
But is there, as my brother Bill would say, yes.
57:09
Phantom Branch come on down and get a little western.
57:13
You know, he saw, he kind of, you know, capped the new genre, quote UN quote with that simple phrase, you know, come on down, get a little, get a little western.
57:27
You think it was right, but it, you know, the, the basic element really didn't change because we were still doing all the work.
57:36
Were you doing the paperwork that Terry?
57:38
No, he, he didn't want to do any of that.
57:41
So I, I got off like a bandit, really, right.
57:43
So who was doing it then?
57:44
Nobody.
57:48
The problem, you know, on my, you know, because I remember asking him, you know, well, you're going on your days off.
57:53
I'm going to be, you know, mad.
57:54
You do you want me to, you know, what kind of paperwork?
57:57
Because I figured he might have a different system or whatever.
58:00
He said, oh, don't worry about that.
58:02
You know, I got that covered.
58:03
He would just stuff it in the drawer.
58:06
Wow.
58:06
And and two, you know, we despite all the fun we had when I left, John Hyatt gave me an incredible letter of recommendation.
58:13
I had no idea that he felt that we did that good a job.
58:16
And he talked about how sales were up, I think 10% or 15% and profits were up like 33%.
58:22
Wow.
58:23
So we had done, you know, I imagine a bit of money making, right?
58:27
And had all that fun at the same time.
58:29
So it might have been, you would think they would have noticed, yeah, when deposits didn't happen or revenue went down deposit.
58:39
But it wasn't on any regular basis, obviously.
58:42
And oh, the best story about him, though, was one day he had, Don had had a girlfriend here and one day Keith came in and he goes, guys.
58:57
And Keith, of course, if you don't know him, is legally blind, can't see Doo Doo, you know.
59:02
And he goes, you guys.
59:05
I think Don and Susie, I think was his girlfriend's name.
59:08
I think Don and Susie have a dog at their cabin.
59:12
I saw a dog outside their cabin and we're going.
59:15
No way, Keith, No way.
59:18
Yeah, blind is a bet.
59:20
Sees a dog.
59:22
Why this is so?
59:24
We doubted him until indeed, we did see the dog.
59:27
And they had hiked him in undercover of Darkness.
59:30
You know, because it's illegal to have animals down here.
59:33
They had to hike it out.
59:34
It was a really a nice dog, too, but it was just such a kick because Keith.
59:40
Keith, be the one to spot.
59:42
I saw a dog.
59:44
I don't think so.
59:45
Oh God, we had so much gone.
59:50
So you really didn't have to make that decision to leave.
59:53
It just kind of worked out that you got the volunteer job.
59:55
GAIL Burak was volunteering up a cotton with them and she had the scoop.
1:00:02
She was talking.
1:00:03
We were talking one day and she goes, you know Steve Martin, who was the river, one of the river Rangers then.
1:00:11
And his wife had been doing the cooking, had been doing my job, oh, my future job, my past job, where am I?
1:00:20
And she had gotten pregnant.
1:00:21
So she wasn't going to be able to do it that season.
1:00:24
And they GAIL said they were looking for a cook to fill that slot as a volunteer.
1:00:31
That meant $2.50 a day plus a place to live on the rim for nothing.
1:00:35
You know, So it was, it was really working down here.
1:00:39
One of the benefits is that you don't spend any money.
1:00:42
So, you know, I had this little nest egg and I had been on the river the year before and was very traumatized when I had to come back here and be at the river and no boats, you know, no rafts.
1:00:55
I mean, I was totally integrated into the river life by one trip.
1:01:01
And so I jumped on it.
1:01:04
I called, I called from here.
1:01:08
I can't remember how did that happen.
1:01:12
Told them I was interested.
1:01:18
Oh, I know what happened.
1:01:22
Well, anyway, I got the job.
1:01:25
I can't remember the sequence of events.
1:01:27
It was like it was one of those things where I, I, I guess I'd talk to them in person and gave them a rundown on my experience here.
1:01:35
Basically because I was ordering food and organizing and cooking and all that and hike back in and like 2 weeks later I get somebody says, Cindy, it's the phone's for you.
1:01:47
Who is it?
1:01:49
Steve Martin.
1:01:50
And I all I could think of was the comedian Steve Martin.
1:01:54
Steve Martin.
1:01:55
I get on the phone right as I realize, yeah, he knows Peter Fonda and Brookie.
1:02:01
And I get on the phone and, and right as I'm starting to talk to Steve, I remember, Oh yeah, he's the river Ranger and he's going when are you going to be back up on the rim?
1:02:10
And I go, well, I was on my days off.
1:02:11
I'm going to hike up this afternoon.
1:02:13
You know, I should be up ladies, to stop by the office, you know?
1:02:16
And so I said, OK.
1:02:19
And John Hyatt had flown in with a bunch of people.
1:02:23
And I all of a sudden I go, oh, maybe I couldn't go to flight out.
1:02:29
Yeah.
1:02:30
So and they were leaving like in 5 minutes, you know, So I called up.
1:02:36
Was it O'Connell Dan, Dan O'Connell up at the helicopter.
1:02:40
I said, you know, do you have room for me?
1:02:44
He says, how big is your pack?
1:02:45
Just a day pack, you know, he says sure, you know, hop on that flight.
1:02:48
So I ended up at the river unit office like in 20 minutes.
1:02:52
Very impressive.
1:02:53
Cindy.
1:02:57
They told me they, they told me I had the job if I wanted it.
1:03:02
Of course, immediately I said yes.
1:03:05
And I kind of went, can I use your phone?
1:03:09
I called Dawn Weir and I go Dawn, I'm giving my notice of two weeks, my two week notice.
1:03:16
I just took another job.
1:03:17
I think it was more like 3 weeks or a month, but I did.
1:03:21
But it was like all of a sudden I was on a whole different train.
1:03:25
A trajectory which has since served you well.
1:03:28
Served me well.
1:03:29
Yeah.
1:03:30
Yeah.
1:03:33
Rivers are definitely.
1:03:35
It's funny how one thing leads to another sometime and then you find your location or Yeah, whatever.
1:03:42
I took my first trip down the Colorado River while I was here, first rafting trip ever.
1:03:47
And that's really become one of the most important things to me, too.
1:03:50
I raft lots and rivers, just love rivers.
1:03:54
And this is the big one.
1:03:55
This is the one that, you know, sings me home.
1:03:59
Yeah.
1:04:02
Any other little stories or something?
1:04:04
In closing, one of the we got to work with Roy Starkey, who's quite a legend in his own time and my favorite Roy story.
1:04:13
And what was his job?
1:04:15
He was the when I got down here, he was the maintenance man down here, Roy boy.
1:04:21
And he had been the USGS river person here before that.
1:04:28
Do you remember Roy?
1:04:29
Yeah, you remember Roy.
1:04:31
So he'd been down here quite a long time.
1:04:32
And he was what, in his 50s then?
1:04:35
I guess so.
1:04:36
I think Silver Fox used to call him.
1:04:39
Yeah, but he was getting a reputation for being a little absent minded, which in retrospect was probably the onset of Alzheimer's, wouldn't you say?
1:04:50
I would say, but he one of the ex managers or the wife of a manager, her name was Minnie and she lived somewhere and every Christmas she would send him a fruitcake.
1:05:06
And so he would get the pet.
1:05:08
Oh, that's for Minnie.
1:05:09
He'd either open it or whatever.
1:05:10
And this one year he went, oh, it's from Minnie.
1:05:14
I'm, I'll save this for later.
1:05:15
He put it in the freezer.
1:05:16
He didn't unwrap it or anything.
1:05:18
And come March or in the springtime, you know, he got a sweet tooth.
1:05:23
Oh, I've got Minnie's fruitcakes still in there.
1:05:26
So he brings out this Christmas package, undoes it.
1:05:30
You know, the card is everything.
1:05:32
He opens it up and it's a sweater.
1:05:39
It must have been crystalline.
1:05:41
Just just the funny little things that happened down here are just all.
1:05:45
Yeah, there's a million story, little funny story, little anecdotes and just, oh, gosh, just everyday, everyday life.
1:05:55
But remember, we used to watch TV, exemplified, you know, we'd watch TV from my cabin, from the manager's cabin, just watching the people.
1:06:05
Yep, that was our version of television.
1:06:06
Walking back and forth, seeing how they looked when they came in, you know.
1:06:10
Whoa, there's a bad one.
1:06:11
Look at that one.
1:06:12
Blisters.
1:06:13
Blisters on her knees.
1:06:14
Lemonade, Quick lemonade.
1:06:18
Oh, another thing that we used to do was, is that it was, it started out to sort of pimp the wranglers.
1:06:25
We would and and we got this idea one night and we pulled pulled it together the next morning.
1:06:30
When the Wranglers that morning when they were leaving with their dudes on their mules and leaving the corral, we'd go out arm in arm and swing back and forth singing happy trails to you.
1:06:41
And that was hysterical.
1:06:43
It was hysterical.
1:06:44
Well, what turned out to be a spoof on the on the Wranglers for one day, they were that Wrangler that day got up to the top and they were throwing tip money at him.
1:06:53
And he realized that it had to probably had something to do with that song when he sang.
1:06:58
So then it became a tradition.
1:07:00
Did you guys come sing for us?
1:07:02
Come on, would you come sing for us?
1:07:04
And so it became everything.
1:07:06
No, the whole crew, everybody who was in the logs come.
1:07:09
And we'd, when everything would stop and we'd go down there, see the corral and then come back and go about our business.
1:07:17
Right.
1:07:17
It was just and we, we got off on it.
1:07:19
Yeah, it was a little break, 10 minutes away.
1:07:22
We sang and then at some point did it just run out, sang and waved, Because I remember we just kind of stopped.
1:07:29
I think, well, we do it.
1:07:30
I think we still would do it occasionally.
1:07:32
Right, Right.
1:07:35
That was so corny.
1:07:37
It was really fun.
1:07:38
Now we'd be waving.
1:07:39
All right, the parade wave.
1:07:43
Oh, the dudes loved it.
1:07:45
They did.
1:07:49
But then too, as Terry and I were talking on the trail, as we came down here, we never talked to anybody on the trail when we hiked in and out because we were going out for days off or coming in after days off.
1:08:00
And it was like, don't talk to anybody.
1:08:03
I talked.
1:08:03
I talked to him for 10 days in a row.
1:08:06
He's not talking to anybody on the trail business.
1:08:11
And so, of course, this time we're talking to everybody, you know, telling them they can't wash their jeans to get the red dust out because that's the only thing you can take out of the Canyon is the dust on your jeans.
1:08:24
You're still trying to spoof the tires.
1:08:30
Oh, good-natured, Lee.
1:08:31
Oh, yeah.
1:08:32
It's like down a big bend at the Hot Springs.
1:08:34
Yes, this water comes all the way from China.
1:08:40
See if they bite it trying to tell.
1:08:43
So those were the days.
1:08:46
They still are.
1:08:49
All right, good.
1:08:51
Thanks.
1:08:51
You bet.
1:08:56
Stories and stories and more stories.
1:08:58
You know, being in the backroom and seeing when all the hikers would come up to the window there, you could check them out.
1:09:04
And I remember all the guys, you know, when a good looking gal would come, you know, some some fresh fish, they'd be going, oh, time to go fishing.
1:09:15
Trolling, trolling, trolling, trolling.
1:09:19
He's about to set the hook.
1:09:21
Oh, he's reeling her in.
1:09:22
He's going slow.
1:09:23
Look at that slow trolling.
1:09:27
Oh, he's got her.
1:09:30
There was, I remember one day sitting there and somebody had come off the a river trip and it was the girl's turn because this guy had a loincloth on and nothing else, you know?
1:09:40
And it was like, whoa, it's our turn, girl, get the poles out.
1:09:52
Just crazy, crazy fun time.
1:09:55
And never beware of the poor hiker or mule person that left their camera in Beer Hall, because inevitably they would get their film back and there would be one picture of all these butts mooning, mooning their camera.
1:10:12
Before the cameras were returned, there was a complimentary phantom shot.
1:10:16
We would just titter away.
1:10:20
We did titter a lot.
1:10:21
We tittered.
1:10:24
And that's the thing.
1:10:25
We're always thinking of goofy things, you know, like hot dogging the Rangers flashlights.
1:10:31
We take their batteries out.
1:10:32
If they left their flashlight on the table, God help you who left anything because it was the opportunity to for some a little Pixie work there, Pixie work.
1:10:42
But we take the batteries out and throw a raw hot dog in there and they'd go and they'd get out there, turn it on.
1:10:48
No.
1:10:50
Seems a little lighter, you know, pull it out, come back in.
1:10:54
OK.
1:10:54
Where's my batteries?
1:10:57
And it was, it was generally sort of an, an unformal initiation of new, new Phantom Rangers or whoever.
1:11:07
No.
1:11:08
But no one was immune to hot dogging.
1:11:10
Right.
1:11:10
And obviously before the day of the Mini Meg flashing.
1:11:14
Yeah.
1:11:18
And when we sold hot dogs out the window and it really helped actually break down their serious aura and gave them a chance to have a sense of humor, we were like telling them it's OK, we're fine.
1:11:30
We don't have to be serious around us.
1:11:32
We're goofy as anything.
1:11:34
And then we could also see who the ******** guys were going to be, you know, if they couldn't crack at the hot dog.
1:11:41
We knew if they came, kept walking, didn't come back for their batteries.
1:11:46
Guy was going to be a tough cookie to break.
1:11:54
Did you have ring tails or ring tail last night?
1:11:58
Did you?
1:11:58
When I was talking on the phone, hopping around the fence and stuff, we had bobs of ring tails.
1:12:03
We used to fish for ring tails in the line you were fishing.
1:12:05
They go off the pipes, you know, into the ceiling that open holes.
1:12:08
They come down at night and eat all the candy bars.
1:12:11
Remember when I I decided that the candy bar consumption was too high and people had to pay for for candy bars, right?
1:12:17
It was the ring tails, right?
1:12:18
So that noise, all of the candy bars like disappeared as everybody rated it the last day before.
1:12:25
The last day before candy bars were $0.10 or whatever idiotic thing.
1:12:29
I decided to charge for them.
1:12:33
They were wiped and the ring tails were pinned for the blame.
1:12:40
Man, there must have been a lot of them in here last night.
1:12:42
Oh, the ring tails.
1:12:44
That was really lots of fun.
1:12:46
That was entertaining for us, for them with hot dogs sometimes or Snickers.
1:12:50
Were there Cheerios?
1:12:51
We you could tie up a Cheerio.
1:12:53
And there were two good fishing spots in the ceiling, right in the ceiling above the Hobart mixer there, right above a whole pipe.
1:13:03
And you could lob a hot dog or something.
1:13:06
And you just wait, you know, And sure enough, here they come And you, the idea was not to actually catch them, but to make them fall through the hole, right?
1:13:13
So then you tug and sometimes they go diving after the hot dog or and they scramble over the mixer and land on the stainless steel counter and scramble.
1:13:21
Hilarious.
1:13:23
But you could go on the back pantry and just sort of throw your, throw your line out in the middle of the room and wait.
1:13:29
And they would come out from under the where, so, you know, under somewhere and you'd like, you'd start reeling it in and see how close they'd come to you before they, you know, they were pretty bold.
1:13:39
Yeah, they were bold.
1:13:40
They were quite.
1:13:41
They didn't want a corner one, that one Wrangler cornered one underneath the refrigerators at one time and got all scratched up and bit.
1:13:50
It was vicious, but there was holes in the main lodge area too.
1:13:57
And people would be writing their postcards and there would be this little head looking out at them.
1:14:04
You know, some people would see it and just kind of what, what was that?
1:14:08
You know, they come out.
1:14:10
They were, they were all, they were very bold.
1:14:13
It was their time.
1:14:14
It was night time time to go hunting, you know, hunting for Snickers.
1:14:17
Oh, it was a hoot.
Description
Terry and Cindy tell the story of how they came to work for Fred Harvey at Grand Canyon, and how they managed Phantom Ranch during the mid-1970's. Oral history interview recorded by Michael Quinn at Phantom Ranch during the Millennium Gathering - December 31, 1999, and January 1, 2000.
Credit
Terry Magda Mische and Cindy Burns
Date Created
12/31/1999
Copyright and Usage Info