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Oral History Interview with Lester H. Shepperson
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Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection. Prince Edward County, Virginia. School segregation desegregation interviews. Interviewee, Mr. Lester Shepperson. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mr. Shepperson in Prince Edward County, Virginia on September 7, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board oral history research project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History collection. Mr. Shepperson, what is your full name?
Lester Shepperson: Lester Henry Shepperson.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthday?
Lester Shepperson: December 23, 1933.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?
Lester Shepperson: I was born in Meherrin, Virginia.
Oloye Adeyemon: Can you spell that for me, please?
Lester Shepperson: Capital M-E-H-E-R-R-I-N.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what are your parents' names?
Lester Shepperson: My parents' name is, uh, Patrick Henry Shepperson and Sally Kaite Shepperson.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, what was your mother's maiden name?
Lester Shepperson: My mother's maiden name was Terry.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have brothers and sisters?
Lester Shepperson: I have brothers and sisters.
Oloye Adeyemon: What are their names?
Lester Shepperson: Uh, I have one brother, Willie L. Shepperson, one sister, Florine Shepperson, and one brother, Lonel Shepperson.
Oloye Adeyemon: And were they also born in, uh—
Lester Shepperson: Same place.
Oloye Adeyemon: Same place.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did your parents do for a livin'?
Lester Shepperson: Well my parents were basically, um, farmers, I would say.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Basically farmers.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was your father a minister also?
Lester Shepperson: Later in life, he became one.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What church? With denomination.
Lester Shepperson: Uh, Calvary Baptist Church in, uh, Chester, Pennsylvania later in life.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: But, uh, his denomination is Baptist.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Um, when—where were you, uh, living when you first started school?
Lester Shepperson: When I first started school, we were in Pennsylvania.
Oloye Adeyemon: What part?
Lester Shepperson: Chester.
Oloye Adeyemon: What area of Pennsylvania is that?
Lester Shepperson: Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what city is it near?
Lester Shepperson: It's Chester, Pennsylvania.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is it near Pittsburgh or Pit—
Lester Shepperson: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: - Philadelphia? Which-which side—
Lester Shepperson: - it's more-it's more—
Oloye Adeyemon: - of—
Lester Shepperson: - near Philadelphia.
Oloye Adeyemon: Near—close to—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - Philadelphia? And, uh, what was your—what were your parents doing at the time they were there?
Lester Shepperson: My-my father was a welder in a shipyard. Uh, Sun Shipbuilding and Drydock Company. My mother just basically was a housewife.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. And how many years were they away from Virginia? Uh, uh, you were born in Virginia. How lo—how old were you when you left and went to—
Lester Shepperson: When I left—
Oloye Adeyemon: - Pennsylvania?
Lester Shepperson: - I was, um, I just began school, really.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you were here for your first five years or so?
Lester Shepperson: For—in Virginia?
Oloye Adeyemon: In-in Virginia.
Lester Shepperson: I only had about one year.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you left here at a year old—
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and went to Pennsylvania.
Lester Shepperson: No. See, you start at seven, right?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: So I was about seven. You know what I mean?
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Lester Shepperson: And then my father took us to Pennsylvania. Then he came back again.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: You see what I'm saying?
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were here. You were born here and remained here for—
Lester Shepperson: About seven years.
Oloye Adeyemon: - about seven years.
Lester Shepperson: Then we came back here to live.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: You see what I'm sayin' to—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: - you now?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you did start school there—
Lester Shepperson: In—
Oloye Adeyemon: - in, uh, Pennsylvania.
Lester Shepperson: - in Pennsylvania. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you had a couple years there of school?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, something like it. I think—
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Lester Shepperson: - I was about second grade or somethin' like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was the school that you—do you remember whether or not the school you went to in Pennsylvania was integrated?
Lester Shepperson: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: It was segregated?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Johnny Watts. Never forget it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So it wasn't legal segregation necessarily, legally, or-or-or it wasn't a situation where Whites and Blacks could not go to school together, but the school that you went to, only Blacks went to it.
Lester Shepperson: Only Blacks.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was the neighborhood that you lived in entirely Black?
Lester Shepperson: Entirely Black.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's kind of the way that segregation worked—
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in north. It was de facto segregation because of the—
Lester Shepperson: Hm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - housing patterns. Here in the south, uh, especially in the rural areas, Whites and Blacks kind of lived, intermingled between—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - themselves.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And it was not unusual for Whites to be bussed to school—
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - so they could go to a White school.
Lester Shepperson: [Unintelligible 04:29].
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that true, that during the early years, when you were a child—
Lester Shepperson: It was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - you saw White children riding the bus, but they weren't riding the bus to integrate the schools. They were White—riding the bus to keep them segregated.
Lester Shepperson: To keep them segregated. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now the Black children didn't ride the buses. They walked, right?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. They would—lots of walking going on. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: How far did you have to walk to get to elementary school?
Lester Shepperson: To my—um, well you talkin' about in Pennsylvania now?
Oloye Adeyemon: No, here.
Lester Shepperson: Oh, here?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I didn't have for—I li—I just the fact of this coming across the street there to that school right there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Is this where your family lived when you were growing up?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you were in the—you're-you're living on the home—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - home site.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: This is the home estate where your family lived.
Lester Shepperson: Over there it is.
Oloye Adeyemon: Over there. Uh-huh.
Lester Shepperson: This was bought from somethin' else.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: [Crosstalk 05:11]—
Oloye Adeyemon: But you lived within walking—
Lester Shepperson: Right in here. It's—
Oloye Adeyemon: - you-you could—
Lester Shepperson: - right across the street.
Oloye Adeyemon: - see where you grew up here.
Lester Shepperson: Right. Mm-hmm. It's right across the street.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so you didn't have far to walk.
Lester Shepperson: Hm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Some of the children that—Black children went to—
Lester Shepperson: Oh, man.
Oloye Adeyemon: - your school had a long distance—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to walk, didn't they.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: How far?
Lester Shepperson: I'm roughly estimating. I know-I know from—it's gotta be five miles over here. Five or six mile, mornin', night.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: And back this way, it must've 'bout a been another six, seven miles back this way.
Oloye Adeyemon: And this was—
Lester Shepperson: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the distance that children had to walk to get to school.
Lester Shepperson: Mornin' and night.
Oloye Adeyemon: And we're talking about elementary school.
Lester Shepperson: Elementary. Little [unintelligible 05:46] guys.
Oloye Adeyemon: How old would children sometimes have been that had to walk that distance?
Lester Shepperson: Some of 'em was, like, six.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And did they have to walk that whether it was rainin' or snowin'?
Lester Shepperson: Rainin' or snowin'. I felt so sorry for 'em.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wh—now many of these children did not have any transportation.
Lester Shepperson: None at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: I mean, even parents couldn't—
Lester Shepperson: Not even—
Oloye Adeyemon: - drive 'em.
Lester Shepperson: - not even a horse—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - to ride or a wagon. You know what I'm sayin'?
Oloye Adeyemon: Were-were parents able to protect them from the weather? What did parents do to, uh, uh—
Lester Shepperson: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - I mean, it's kind of rough to be out in that kind of weather for—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Well they would—
Oloye Adeyemon: I mean, 'cause they had to walk—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - a couple hours.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Yeah. They would, um, they would wrap 'em up real tight an grease their faces and stuff down in lard, and, you know, hog lard—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - to ke—to protect their skin from chafing.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And it-and it-it would even have it in the hair, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. Hm. And they had to do this, you know, just to keep—just to try to keep them from—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, to keep them—the weather from, you know, chafing 'em really bad. You know, after you chafe, you break out. You know, your skin p—crack.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: And they used to do that for 'em now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. How were the schools heated?
Lester Shepperson: Well the schools had a, um, potbelly, uh, stove in there. And, um, they had, um, the kids would, um, bring wood from the outside—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - and stack it in the school in the evenings.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: We were-we were granted, like, a-a, like, something, like-like, if the school turned out let's say at 3:00, we were granted from 2 to 3 to bring wood from the outside to stack for the next day.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And I would be the second because I lived across the street there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I would make fire. The PTA would give me $1—
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, really?
Lester Shepperson: - a week.
Oloye Adeyemon: T-to make the fire.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: You'd do that every day.
Lester Shepperson: Every day. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Hm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And before that, f—wood f—wood had to a-added during the day too.
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah, but anybody—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: - did that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: You know, like, if you said—
Oloye Adeyemon: But it was your job—
Lester Shepperson: - you never—
Oloye Adeyemon: - to get it warm for the children.
Lester Shepperson: - get it—yeah. For the-for the teacher and all when he got there that morning
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: The teacher that taught, uh, at your school, where did they live?
Lester Shepperson: Well, um, one used to own this place here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And, uh, one, she lived about, uh, what we used to call Mount Lee. Down where that mountain is there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: She used to, um, drive up. You know, her husband never [unintelligible 08:03] money and all. And, uh, one of the teachers had to walk that five miles every day.
Oloye Adeyemon: Just like the children.
Lester Shepperson: Right along with those kids.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. Hm.
Lester Shepperson: Every day. His name was, uh, uh, uh, James White.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: Nice guy, you know. We all liked him, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So the teachers that taught you were part of the community.
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did that make a difference, you think, on the education? The fact that the teachers were part of the community?
Lester Shepperson: I think so.
Oloye Adeyemon: They knew your parents [crosstalk 08:33]—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 08:34].
Lester Shepperson: The—yeah. They ate with you. You know, you-you—
Oloye Adeyemon: Went to church with you too, didn't they?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm. And you-and you felt more comfortable with them, you know. Like you talk and they would tell you things, you know. Some of it, we didn't have no idea what was goin' on—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - but they would tell you, you know, would give you some kind of directions, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you think the fact that they knew you, knew your families, uh, made a difference in terms of-of how they treated you and how you respected them?
Lester Shepperson: You mean, in—at school?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. As opposed to, say, that they were teachers, you know, know the teachin' [crosstalk 09:06]—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. I-I—
Oloye Adeyemon: - beatin' [unintelligible 09:07].
Lester Shepperson: - I don't think that they really give us any special privilege because they knew our parents or because our parents—'cause our parents didn't allow that.
Oloye Adeyemon: They might have been stricter on you 'cause they knew your—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. My—our parents didn't allow that, uh, um, at least mine didn't that, you know, that you would be soft on him because he—you ate chicken with him this Sunday, or somethin'—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: My old man was—he was vehemently against stuff like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: But I guess what I'm wondering is what kind of, uh, attitude did the teachers have about teaching you?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, they a good one. In fact-in fact, Imma be frank about it. Uh, I think much of what they taught me made me, if you can call this anything, made me what I am now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: I th—I really got my direction from them in life.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: I really, honestly got it from them in life. Um, they didn't have much and all, but they had a lot of, you know, can you understand what I'm tryin' to say?
Oloye Adeyemon: I think I do. I think I understand exactly what you're saying.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, they-they could direct you. They could tell you. They would warn you about things, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they would stay on you too.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: When they knew you could do better than—
Lester Shepperson: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - what you were doing.
Lester Shepperson: Yes, that's-that's exactly right.
Oloye Adeyemon: It wasn't any such thing as you not doing too well in your studies and then puttin' you in a slow class.
Lester Shepperson: No. No. Hm-mmm. And another thing—
Oloye Adeyemon: Even the ones that had difficulty with the subjects, they just worked with 'em harder.
Lester Shepperson: That's exactly right. Yeah. Uh, or, like, many times, they didn't have books, you know, and these teachers taught us to share. You know, if your parents could buy a book to share it with the next guy who couldn't—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: - that's the truth now. And, um, lot of time, we studied out of each other's books. I didn't have to do because my parents could buy it, but there were people here that were really poor, man. I'm serious. Really poor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Lester Shepperson: And so we'd study out of each other's books.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you know what prompted your father to move back to Virginia?
Lester Shepperson: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Given that it was segregated here, and-and I'm assumin' that the money he was making up there as a welder, was-he—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. He was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - wasn't makin' as much money when came back, was he?
Lester Shepperson: No. No, not at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what do you think prompted him to do that?
Lester Shepperson: I think what prompted Daddy to come back here was, um, I don't-I don't really don't think he wanted to be goin' in the beginnin'.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: That's the honest to God truth. But it—things were such that he couldn't make any money at all, see, and he had four children to take care of.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And so he went there because the war was on.
Oloye Adeyemon: And there were jobs.
Lester Shepperson: And there were jobs, see.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And he had to have a defense job or somethin' or go in the army.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Lester Shepperson: That was the l-law then.
Oloye Adeyemon: I guess what I'm askin' is, uh, there were-there were a lot of difficulties that Blacks faced during segregation.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: There must have been some advantage or some-somethin'—
Lester Shepperson: That made him come back?
Oloye Adeyemon: - that would make him choose that since he was already north. Some people couldn't get north.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, I know.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 11:49]—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 11:49]—
Lester Shepperson: I see what you're sayin'. Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - they might've had family there.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: But he was there, he had some money, he could've probably done somethin' and moved on to another stage as welding. He has a skill that—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, he did.
Oloye Adeyemon: - was always a demand.
Lester Shepperson: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: But he chose to come back. So I guess what I'm asking is—
Lester Shepperson: Oh, I don't—
Oloye Adeyemon: - what was it that was here—
Lester Shepperson: I'll tell you exactly what—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that would either hold people here or draw people back that had left. 'Cause you-you went away—
Lester Shepperson: He wanted us to—
Oloye Adeyemon: - as an adult, didn't you?
Lester Shepperson: I can tell you exactly what it was.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: He wanted us to grow up here. He really wanted us—that's the truth. He wanted us to grow up here and know what it was to grow up—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where he had grown up.
Lester Shepperson: That's exactly right.
Oloye Adeyemon: In that environment.
Lester Shepperson: And know what it's about. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: What do you fell—what do you feel he was hopin' that you would get from the experience?
Lester Shepperson: He would always press to do better than I or do better than what your grandfather was able to do. Do greater than my grandpa was able to do. He's always stressed that at all times sake.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And, uh, and we—he actually got his [unintelligible 12:45] we had to some of that hard work, that-that stuff like that. You know.
Oloye Adeyemon: So although it was hard, he felt it would make a stronger person out of you?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, and, like, I think he was right too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I really think he was right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Not at the time, you see.
Oloye Adeyemon: You didn't think he was right?
Lester Shepperson: But I'm tellin' sir, as I look at it now, I'm tellin' you. I really think the man had the right idea.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And he-he-he worked and he, you know, work hard. We all work very hard, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: He, uh, everybody shows their weight.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: He should make it—showed it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And I think that it did have a lot do with what a-what a, you know—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - whatever success I've had in life.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. So let me make sure I'm clear—put this on the record. Um, segregation was hard.
Lester Shepperson: Yes, sir.
Oloye Adeyemon: And it was unfair.
Lester Shepperson: Yes, sir.
Oloye Adeyemon: But the life that you lived livin' with your family—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the, you know, living here in-in Prince Edward County—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you're not really sorry that you had to go—
Lester Shepperson: Not at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: In fact-in fact, I've had interviewers ask me, how you feel? Doesn't bother me at all. It never stopped me from what I wanted to do.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: You know? I had mapped out what I wanted in life. You know, I got that from home.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And they drill that in me, see? So when I left home, I still had that idea. I didn't know how it was comin', but I had that idea. Excuse me. And when I, uh, got the opportunity, I did it. I just move it out of the way. You know what I'm sayin'?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Whatever obstacles are in the way.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, and-and there were some bitter ones, man.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: There were some bitter one. Like, crosses used to be out there. You know what I'm sayin' to you? But I, you know—
Oloye Adeyemon: Klan crosses.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. KKK crosses.
Oloye Adeyemon: You remember-remember seein' them.
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Burnin'.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Why here? Was there somethin' happening in this area that caused them to—
Lester Shepperson: It was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - put the crosses here?
Lester Shepperson: I can't ever remember a person actually in this area, anything, get lynched or nothin' like that, but it was threat. Like, when something was, uh, change or of you, or, you know, if you—felt like you were gettin' a little out of hand, you would see some of this pop up every now and then, you know. It was, kinda—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So how close to your home do you remember a cross bein' burned?
Lester Shepperson: Huh?
Oloye Adeyemon: How close to your home do you remember seein' this?
Lester Shepperson: The-the first one that I remember seeing was at Moton.
Oloye Adeyemon: A-at the school.
Lester Shepperson: Right in the school yard. We stood—I stood right there lookin' at it. It was full of burlap, and oil, and it's tall, see.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And he lit it.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that?
Lester Shepperson: That was, um, the year that-the year that they walked out. Somethin' like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now this happened while you were at school, or when-when did—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, I was at school. I—oh. You mean, durin' the day?
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. When did—when was the cross—
Lester Shepperson: No. This—
Oloye Adeyemon: - burned?
Lester Shepperson: - this thing burned, uh, I think they lit that thing in the afternoon or somethin' like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was this a Klan rally, or just a [crosstalk 15:38]?
Lester Shepperson: I don't know who—we don't know who did it, but it was—
Oloye Adeyemon: You weren't in town at the time. You were here.
Lester Shepperson: No. I'm-I'm in Farmville. That thing was so—
Oloye Adeyemon: So that you were in Farmville—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - living—
Lester Shepperson: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - or—
Lester Shepperson: I'm-I'm li—I'm there. We-we school children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wait a minute. Let me-let me stand—understand. Did this happen while you were in school?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, while I'm in school.
Oloye Adeyemon: You were in school, and while you're in school, there's a crossing burning outside—
Lester Shepperson: There's—
Oloye Adeyemon: - the school.
Lester Shepperson: - a cross. We all came out to look at it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Burning.
Lester Shepperson: Burnin'.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: You see what I'm sayin' to you?
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Lester Shepperson: That's the first one I ever saw.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now when you're in school, you don't see anybody puttin' the cross up or anything. The cross was—
Lester Shepperson: Hm-mmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - put up while you were in the building.
Lester Shepperson: I guess so. I don't know. I don't have—
Oloye Adeyemon: It wasn't there—
Lester Shepperson: - [crosstalk 16:14]—
Oloye Adeyemon: - when you came in.
Lester Shepperson: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: But when you came out, there's a cross there.
Lester Shepperson: There's a cross. We all stood 'round it. We stood 'round it lookin' up at it, like this, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So that was clear message—
Lester Shepperson: That was message to pipe down. That's exactly right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I mean, they didn't hurt anybody.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Nobody hurt anybody, but we saw it burnin', and it was always understood that when that cross burn—
Oloye Adeyemon: It's a warning.
Lester Shepperson: - that's a warning to somebody. You know what I'm saying to you now?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: That's a fact, man.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And so, we-we got used to that, you know. It didn't make us leave, or run, or no-nothin' like that because we always felt that we had the protection of our parents. I don't know how much they could've done, but we always felt we had that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: They would always, you know, talk to you and, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Can't be goin' your way. You see what I'm sayin' to you now?
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Lester Shepperson: Don't worry about it, and this, that and the other. Grandmother too. But, um, man, it's somethin' you think—you start thinking about it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. So when you were going to elementary school here, how many grades was it?
Lester Shepperson: Over here?
Oloye Adeyemon: Over here.
Lester Shepperson: There were, um, seven grades, and from there, you go to high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Which was in town.
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: When did you start high school?
Lester Shepperson: You start high school—in my—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - started high school—I started high school, I was—you mean age are you speakin' of?
Oloye Adeyemon: Ye-year.
Lester Shepperson: Okay. Let me see. Okay. I must have been around 15, I guess. Fifteen, sixteen. See, it's a queer thing happened to me there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: There's a queer thing that happened to me. What it was was that the teachers got paid according to how many grades they taught. You understand what I'm saying?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: So there they taught from one to seven.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: But we had some re—had five bright students was to go to the seventh grade that year.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And I was one of them.
Oloye Adeyemon: You had gotten good grades?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, and I was one of them. And so what the teacher did, they passed us on to the eighth grade. You follow what I'm saying?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And-and we were doin' fine in the high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And the teacher come [unintelligible 18:26] he didn't have a seventh grade. He-he made us all come back.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because if he hadn't had a seventh grade—
Lester Shepperson: He couldn't have got paid.
Oloye Adeyemon: - he wouldn't have got paid anything.
Lester Shepperson: That's the truth.
Oloye Adeyemon: How many teachers were there at the school?
Lester Shepperson: Two.
Oloye Adeyemon: Two. For all seven grades.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so this teacher wouldn't have had enough students without you bein' there.
Lester Shepperson: That's it.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so what did they-what did they say? I made a mistake. They shouldn't have—they-they-they don't have the grades that they need to graduate? I mean, somethin'-somethin' [unintelligible 18:55]—
Lester Shepperson: No, the superintendent—
Oloye Adeyemon: At least on paper they had to do somethin' to justify that.
Lester Shepperson: To justify it?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Why they didn't have a seventh grade? Well see—
Oloye Adeyemon: No. No. Why-why you had to go back after you already at the eighth grade.
Lester Shepperson: They really didn't—there wasn't nothin' on paper.
Oloye Adeyemon: They didn't have to do anything—
Lester Shepperson: They just [crosstalk 19:09]—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that say—
Lester Shepperson: - say—
Oloye Adeyemon: - come up back here.
Lester Shepperson: - they just—that's exactly right. When we came out and caught the bus in the afternoon, they had this paper on there. All right? Um, this girl on there with this paper. And she stood up in the bus, and she read, and she called our names. And said—
Oloye Adeyemon: And said you all—
Lester Shepperson: - "You all gotta go back to Mission School." That was it. That was the end of it.
Oloye Adeyemon: You were already in eighth grade. You were already doin'—
Lester Shepperson: I was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - work.
Lester Shepperson: - doin' great. That was kind of hurting too, man. You know how that felt?
Oloye Adeyemon: I can imagine. Did your parents try to do somethin' about that?
Lester Shepperson: No, they didn't—I don't think they really knew what to do. They would—probably would have if it was now, you know, but I don't think they really knew what to do.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. So you had to repeat the grade even though you knew the work?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. So the teacher would get paid so she [crosstalk 19:49]—
Lester Shepperson: That's exactly right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the thing that was enough for the next year.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Yeah. That-that-that's what it was. It sound funny, man. I'm tellin' the truth.
Oloye Adeyemon: But it-it isn't though.
Lester Shepperson: It's the truth.
Oloye Adeyemon: It's-it's-it's-it's—
Lester Shepperson: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: But those are things that had to be, kind of, put—you had to go through—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in that kind of a situation.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: It was one of the-the consequences of it.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So when you finally get to high school, what year is it when you actually get to stay this time?
Lester Shepperson: When I get to high school, let's say the—see, when I'm thinking back 40, 50 years, man, it's just—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - kinda hard for me to get everything exact. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: You were born in '33, so—
Lester Shepperson: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - some-somewhere—
Lester Shepperson: See I'm 68 now.
Oloye Adeyemon: - around '48. Uh-huh. So somewhere around '48. Somethin' like that. '49.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 20:34].
Lester Shepperson: Somewhere around there. Some—about '48. '49, somewhere got to high school, maybe.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you-you're there a while before the walkout.
Lester Shepperson: Uh, yeah. 'Bout—
Oloye Adeyemon: The walkout's in '51.
Lester Shepperson: - 'bout two-'bout two or three-'bout three years. Somethin'—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: - like that. Somewhere in that [unintelligible 20:47].
Oloye Adeyemon: Wa-was there any difference between the education-the education environment at high school and the education environment at elementary school?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, um, if I understand you right, um, the environment there you had, basically, kids who were taught, somethin' like me. Help. Get it. You know what I mean? You got to, you know, you got—what you gonna do when you get out? Well I'm gonna do somethin'. You know, that kind of thing. You're in the kind of environment.
Oloye Adeyemon: Pushing and encouraging—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Everybody. I mean, students, teachers and all.
Oloye Adeyemon: Students too?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: You know what I'm tryin' to say to you? Man, I'm gonna do this. Man, I'm gonna do that. So, you know, now you gotta find somethin' to do. You know what I mean? Imma go in [unintelligible 21:29], man. I'm gonna do—you know, this kind of thing. That was the kind of—
Oloye Adeyemon: Everybody had a dream.
Lester Shepperson: - the—yeah. That was the kind of thing that was to-to-tossed around. You know—
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were encouraged?
Lester Shepperson: - what I'm sayin'? Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Both by the teachers and the students.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your parents.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, and principal too.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the principal.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: You remember who the principal was?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. His name was Boyd Jones. We used to call him Spike.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: He's still livin'.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: His name was Spike. We used to call him Spike Jones because his—if-if-if Boyd—he was a good guy, man, but he did-he didn't play. And if he told you no downtown, that's what he meant. And he would go down to his car downtown and pick you up, every one of you, and bring you back. So we used to laugh. We used to say, you got spiked.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: You know what I'm sayin' to you now?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: So we nicknamed him Spike Jones, right?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: But he was a wonderful guy, man. Wonderful guy.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: Wonderful guy.
Oloye Adeyemon: So he was in the habit of goin' downtown when the students—
Lester Shepperson: Kept an eye on you.
Oloye Adeyemon: - would cut school or somethin'—
Lester Shepperson: Kept an—
Oloye Adeyemon: - like that.
Lester Shepperson: - eye on you.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: He kept—
Oloye Adeyemon: I guess that's why it was easy to get him out the buildin' when the walkout occurred 'cause they told—somebody, I understand, called and told him some students were downtown. So he ran out the buildin'—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and left you all to do what you did that day—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. And he—they did—
Oloye Adeyemon: - in terms of the walkout.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, he was quite a guy.
Oloye Adeyemon: So they knew what to do to get him out the buildin'. Just tell—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - him some students were—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - actin' up—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - downtown.
Lester Shepperson: He'd be on ya, man. He'd be right there. Believe me when I tell ya.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But nonetheless, you knew that he cared.
Lester Shepperson: He cared about you. He cared about you. He knew your parents.
Oloye Adeyemon: In those days, teachers was—would discipline you too, wouldn't they?
Lester Shepperson: Yes, they would. But he ne—was a guy who, um, he didn't use the strap or nothin', but he sent you home.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And you don't come back—
Oloye Adeyemon: Which was just the same.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, 'cause you got it there, see. But—so, uh, he'd send you home and don't come back without the parents.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And that you, he, and the parents.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Y'all sit there, and y'all had a pow-wow. [Unintelligible 23:12] got the treatment over there. You know what I'm sayin' to you?
Oloye Adeyemon: If you can sit.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. There was—
Oloye Adeyemon: So what-what kinds of things did you, uh, you know, wait. Let me back up. You were there durin' the years of the tar-paper shacks.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, man. I, you know, I don't—I almost forget them. They had these, uh, um, see, it wa-it was a lot of Black students comin' in there, see? And they had to UPC the old buildin'. The Griffin buildin' there, right? Um, so we needed new buildings. So what they did was the Board of Education, they sent this [unintelligible 23:49] up there and all these tar paper, and they built these shacks which held one, two, three, I think about four rooms to a shack. One, two—and I think they built three of 'em to extend the school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Well each one of 'em had the little stove in it, you know, which we kept—I think me moved up to coal then.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: You know, but-but somebody had to put the coal in. But the-the horrible thing was, you know, that made you angry was that, when the White kids who went to that high school, or they never tore it down now, they would pass by, and they would jeer at ya. You know what I'm sayin'?
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Now what kind of school were they goin' to?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, they—qu-quite modern, you know, to—compared to, you know, what we had. It was quite modern.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So when you went to these, uh, shacks, you had to outside of—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the building—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - no matter what kind of weather—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in order to get to 'em. And every—
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - student had to go at some point—
Lester Shepperson: That's exactly—
Oloye Adeyemon: - durin' the day.
Lester Shepperson: That's right. That's right. You we-went outside to the-to the next one.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were runnin' back and forth between these shacks—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, man.
Oloye Adeyemon: - durin' the day 'cause you had to go—
Lester Shepperson: That's right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you-you couldn't stay—
Lester Shepperson: Your homeroom was there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Your homeroom was placed in those shacks.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. So even at that age, you didn't like that.
Lester Shepperson: Nah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and did you have a sense that it wasn't right?
Lester Shepperson: Yep.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even at that age?
Lester Shepperson: Sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did the teachers justify it, or were they upset about—
Lester Shepperson: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - it too?
Lester Shepperson: They didn't like it either.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they let you know—let the students know they did?
Lester Shepperson: Sure, they did. Mm-hmm. But, uh, it was much—not much you could do, you see—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - at the time because, uh, it's a little different in terms of you can fight for what you get.
Oloye Adeyemon: People weren't inclined to do that then as much?
Lester Shepperson: I told ya, that cross tells you somethin', right?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: It tells you a lot.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you ever see the Klan itself or just the signs of the Klan, like the cross?
Lester Shepperson: Uh, no. I never saw them in their, uh, uniform. I-I was in Maryland when I saw them in uniform.
Oloye Adeyemon: What happened in Maryland?
Lester Shepperson: They were walkin' down the street and harass Black people.
Oloye Adeyemon: What part of Maryland was this?
Lester Shepperson: Over at Highlandtown.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year?
Lester Shepperson: Uh, that's recent, man. That's as recent as, Imma say 15 years ago.
Oloye Adeyemon: You were there at that time?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the Klan would march in the—
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah. Guns hangin' on the side. I'm tellin'—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where—
Lester Shepperson: - you the—
Oloye Adeyemon: - where—
Lester Shepperson: - truth.
Oloye Adeyemon: I don't doubt you.
Lester Shepperson: It's over in Highlandtown. I bought that rifle there—
Oloye Adeyemon: Highlandtown?
Lester Shepperson: - because of that.
Oloye Adeyemon: You bought a rifle because of that.
Lester Shepperson: I bought a rifle and 50—
Oloye Adeyemon: To protect your family?
Lester Shepperson: That's right. I bought a rifle and 50, uh, uh, uh, uh, I bought a brick of bullets. We got 50 boxes.
Oloye Adeyemon: It was that bad? This was—
Lester Shepperson: High—
Oloye Adeyemon: - Highland—
Lester Shepperson: Highlandtown, Maryland.
Oloye Adeyemon: What part of Maryland is that?
Lester Shepperson: It's like goin' way over on the east side.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, on the eastern shore?
Lester Shepperson: Uh, goin' to more, like, Sparrows Point.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So you didn't see the—you-you saw the signs of the Klan, but you actually, you know, did experience that in Maryland.
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: In—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. And by then, see, I had a couple kids. See, I won't-I won't walk through that mess no more. You know?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Hm-mmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. Back to, um, high school. So, you know, when the walkout occurred—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - I understand that a lot of the students did not know in advance—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that this was gonna happen when they came to school. When you went to school that day, did you know there was gonna be a walkout?
Lester Shepperson: Not really.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you went to the auditorium, did you think anything was up? Or were you—
Lester Shepperson: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - unaware of what was—
Lester Shepperson: It was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - gonna happen?
Lester Shepperson: - pretty well hidden, right—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - uh, in a way of speaking, 'cause there was—
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you—
Lester Shepperson: - there was some s-s-strategic people there—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - in that school. They were upper classmen and since, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: And they were, kind of, s-strategic people that knew everything was happenin'.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: So when-when-when it happened, you know, I fell in with the group.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. So you went into the auditorium.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And were you expectin' to see the principal?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: But he wasn't there.
Lester Shepperson: Like always. No, he wasn't.
Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause he had been tricked into leavin'.
Lester Shepperson: That's exactly right.
Oloye Adeyemon: What happened when you came in? You came in with your teacher.
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then what happened?
Lester Shepperson: And then, um, I can't think of it. I think the guy's name was Hodges 28:04 Brown, John Watson, and these was older guys, you know what I mean?
Oloye Adeyemon: Was Barbara Johns—
Lester Shepperson: He—
Oloye Adeyemon: - one of them?
Lester Shepperson: Ba—uh, Barbara Johns. Yeah. And they said, um, that, um, that what we were gonna do. We're gonna strike for this, you know what I mean?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what was the teachers' response when they said that?
Lester Shepperson: Teachers didn't say much at the time. They-they couldn't say much. So we came home that evenin', it had hit the news, and we came home—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, uh, uh, wait. Before that.
Lester Shepperson: Hm.
Oloye Adeyemon: When—after they said that, there actually was a march downtown.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, that's true. See, I'm thinkin' 50 years. Man, I'm sorry, man.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. No—
Lester Shepperson: You know.
Oloye Adeyemon: - it's all right. I just [unintelligible 28:37]—I—
Lester Shepperson: It-it's 50 somethin' years I'm thinkin'—
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Lester Shepperson: - back. You know what I mean?
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you—
Lester Shepperson: That-that's true.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now some students had to catch the bus to get home.
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I understand some of the students that had to catch the bus did not go downtown. Did you catch the bus, or did you go downtown?
Lester Shepperson: I caught—I had—I caught my bus home.
Oloye Adeyemon: You waited until the bus came.
Lester Shepperson: Right. Yeah, that evenin'.
Oloye Adeyemon: But some of the students went downtown.
Lester Shepperson: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what did you hear about it the next day?
Lester Shepperson: At-at the, uh, up at the school? The next day?
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what happened the next day?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, I had heard that, you know, that it was strike, and then you had heard that a lot of, uh, parents, Black and White, was upset, and that, uh, the principal was upset in some way, and, you know, this kind of thing.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Lester Shepperson: It's just a lot of—
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you go to school, or did you stay home?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, I went to school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm. I went—
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you go—
Lester Shepperson: - to school.
Oloye Adeyemon: - school every day, or did you stay out part of that time?
Lester Shepperson: I think we had, if I recall right, I think we had a few days off, or somethin'. I can't think of what it was. Whether it was to make up our minds, or what we gonna do, or, uh, somethin'. I-I just can't think of what it was now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now I un—
Lester Shepperson: But I think we had a few days off in—
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Lester Shepperson: - there somewhere.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now I understand, durin' that time, that Reverend Griffin's church—
Lester Shepperson: Old Francis. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - had—there was some meetings there.
Lester Shepperson: Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever attend any of them?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was discussed in those meetings that you remember?
Lester Shepperson: Basically, it was discussed that, um, uh, in the sense that-that we should stand up for our rights. And that—this was the kind of guy Griffin was. And so, uh, some meetings it was discussed that the man was gonna blow the place up.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. But that was voted down?
Lester Shepperson: No. I'm talkin' about the Klan was gonna blow the place up.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: They-they-they—
Oloye Adeyemon: The school?
Lester Shepperson: - these men—
Oloye Adeyemon: The Black school or the church?
Lester Shepperson: The church. The—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: - church.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: You see what I mean? And what—it was all a block of a-a sort of a, if you wanna call it political. I think what we were tryin' to bring together the neighborhood, bring together the kids, bring together, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. But the-the Klan never did anything.
Lester Shepperson: Never did nothin'.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I remember the night that Thurgood Marshall was supposed to come in, man. And it was, man. There was some—a lot of folks there, and they said that if they had a meetin', the place would blow up that night. But, you know, they had been doin' it, you know—
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh.
Lester Shepperson: - in another state.
Oloye Adeyemon: In other places.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. You know. But we went there. We would go out and march down. Get together and march down to the courthouse and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: - pray-pray. You know, just somethin' to get recognition.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Lester Shepperson: Sing. You know, stuff like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So there was a—eventually a court case. Well not eventually. Soon after, there was a court case and the Supreme Court decision. You were, uh, s—you were in the 10th grade. So you, uh—
Lester Shepperson: I—
Oloye Adeyemon: - you would've, you, uh, even older. You-you would've been—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - gone by that time—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - by the time that all that happened.
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did you do as soon as you left, uh, school? Did you—
Lester Shepperson: I-I—
Oloye Adeyemon: Left high school.
Lester Shepperson: - left school-I left school on, um, on, uh, June 9th, and-and June 10th, I was in the army. I was at Fort Jackson, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you were in a hurry?
Lester Shepperson: Not—no.
Oloye Adeyemon: Or how—
Lester Shepperson: I—
Oloye Adeyemon: - how did it happen that you left so soon?
Lester Shepperson: It happened because I tried to be a man early.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: I—and I put my age up—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - to get a job, and so I was drafted because of that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: You know what I'm sayin'—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: - to you now?
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: And they deferred me.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And so once you went in the army, then what?
Lester Shepperson: When I went in the army, I began to see things a whole lot differently.
Oloye Adeyemon: In what way?
Lester Shepperson: Well at the time, you know, tr-troops were integrated. You know what I'm saying?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And so you Black guys and White guys gettin' together and sleepin' [unintelligible 32:01]. You had never seen nothin' like that, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And a lot of White guys had never seen that.
Oloye Adeyemon: How'd you get along?
Lester Shepperson: Well I got along fine 'cause they would ask you funny things, you know. Uh, let me feel your hair.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: And weird stuff like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: They said, "Man, do that hurt?" I said, "No." You know, you—feel your hair. You know, stuff like that, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: They would ask you questions about, um, uh, it—man, is it a fact that Black guy cut you? You know, stuff like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: He said, "I never lived with any Black guys before."
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: And, you know, we got along like that. We got along pretty good. It wasn't no big fights or nothin' like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: But I got to know people for what they were. You know what I mean? I—everybody's tryin' to survive.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And, uh, you know what I'm sayin'?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: You're just another man.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now would you have been in the Korean War, or was that—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - over?
Lester Shepperson: Kor—mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: You did go to Korea?
Lester Shepperson: No, I didn't go to Korea. Hm. I did—just hit the end of it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hit the end of it, yeah.
Lester Shepperson: Just hit the end of it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Hm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So after—how long were you in the army?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, I had, uh, two years of actin' and six years in the reserve.
Oloye Adeyemon: And after that, what'd you do?
Lester Shepperson: And I decided to—I-I was-I was lost, you know, in a sense.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: I-I didn't know where I wanted to go, what I wanted to do. So I came back here, and I worked at a sawmill, and that made my mind up today how I work. And I won't-won't do that [unintelligible 33:09].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: So I decided to go to college.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: So I went to, um, Morgan State University. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: And what-what did you major in?
Lester Shepperson: I majored in, um, psychology and criminology.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And after gettin' your degree there, what did you do next?
Lester Shepperson: I taught there for 22 years.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And how did you feel once you were in that kind of environment, and-and for the record, where is, uh—
Lester Shepperson: That's—
Oloye Adeyemon: - the school?
Lester Shepperson: - Baltimore, Maryland.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: Hm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And after getting there and-and competing with students from other places, how did you feel about the education that you'd gotten in Prince Edward County? How did you feel it prepared you to [crosstalk 33:49]?
Lester Shepperson: I thought for what we had, for we got there, I was pretty well off, and I even met some of the teachers that were there already. You know what I'm sayin'—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: - to you? Ones here. And I thought that—I thought they were—it was—I was pretty well off, except for math. I was kind of slow in math, right?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: But other than that, I got along fine.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I got along fine.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did—so you stayed there for 22 years and taught—
Lester Shepperson: And taught. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I taught—
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you have any students come to you there from Prince Edward County?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: People that—
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - had known you before?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: That know me before or I had people workin' there who had lived here before.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Who didn't—who recognized me as—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: - one of the Brown versus Supreme Court. You know what I'm sayin' to you?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: All the thing like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: Um, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: When you came back, uh, uh, when you retired you came back home?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Came back home.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what is the county like today in comparison to what is was like then?
Lester Shepperson: Well I'm gonna tell you the truth, man. If I had to say it, if I had to say it, I would say there is-there is some difference. You hear-you hear that word? Some difference.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: But it needs a lot more difference.
Oloye Adeyemon: What are—
Lester Shepperson: [Crosstalk 35:02].
Oloye Adeyemon: - what are some of the changes that you-you see?
Lester Shepperson: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: What are the ones, some of the ones you don't see yet?
Lester Shepperson: - well, I don't—I-I-I—so some of the changes that I've see is that all Black people are able to have those things. You know, I could never own this home at that time. You know what I'm sayin' to you? [Unintelligible 35:18] leave you no money. Um, I see Black kids in all workin' in places that we weren't even allowed to go in, not even to eat.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: You know what—see what I'm sayin'?
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: And stuff like that. Um, the-the Black and the White, they go together, and they seem to [unintelligible 35:33]. Their bodies seem to get along or every time I visited the school over there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: And I ask myself, why couldn't we have done it?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Uh, I don't know, but there is a lot more need to be done because it's subtle.
Oloye Adeyemon: What are the areas that you—
Lester Shepperson: Subtle.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what are the areas that you're referring to as subtle?
Lester Shepperson: Well that, a lot of time, um, things are-things are said but never done. That's what I mean. You know, like—
Oloye Adeyemon: Such as—
Lester Shepperson: - these big shots, you know, like, uh, um, how they, uh, uh, you sort of—what's that word you use when you sort peop—put people in a category?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: You know-you know what I'm saying? [Unintelligible 36:13]. What's the word—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Lester Shepperson: - I'm tryin' to say? Um, uh, uh, I don't—but anyway the Klan is still here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Label people, is that what you're referrin' to?
Lester Shepperson: Yeah, somethin' like that. I mean, you put 'em in a category, and you give 'em a little bit, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, I—
Lester Shepperson: It's enough.
Oloye Adeyemon: - understand.
Lester Shepperson: Tokenism.
Oloye Adeyemon: Tokenism.
Lester Shepperson: That's the word I'm tryin' to say. You know what I'm sayin' to you? The Klan is still here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I mean, how-how—what evidence is there that—
Lester Shepperson: I see it on the garbage cans up every day. KKK. Great, big letters, like this.
Oloye Adeyemon: On your garbage cans.
Lester Shepperson: Right up there in Meherrin.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Right up here in Meherrin. Right up here.
Oloye Adeyemon: On what garbage cans?
Lester Shepperson: They got a garbage dump up there where you have, um, you could—where all the neighborhoods and all dump their garbage. And you go up there and you see these letters printed in big, black letters and paint. KKK. K.K.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: Right now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: I mean, it's still around.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: They're more subtle in what they do. They're not really comin' out in force like they did back then. I think they weakened in some way.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: But there's a lot more [crosstalk 37:15].
Oloye Adeyemon: So what you're sayin' is, not only do you see the letters, but there's evidence that some of those attitudes—
Lester Shepperson: [Unintelligible 37:21]. They fly their old Confederate flag, you know. You know, around here. You know, to get you, like, worked up, you know. It doesn't bother me at all, you know what I mean?
Oloye Adeyemon: It doesn't bother you?
Lester Shepperson: Not at all. You know what I'm sayin', right? What is the—you know. But they do it. They-they ride their motorcycles with [unintelligible 37:38].
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Right down through there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: It don't bother me.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Nah. I don't let them bother me.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So what do you think would be your advice, particularly young people, um, you know, as a result of what you've been through? 'Cause a lot of young people today don't know this story. I'm not just talkin' from Prince Edward.
Lester Shepperson: Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: A lot of 'em don't feel their education is—
Lester Shepperson: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that important. Wh-what [crosstalk 38:13]—
Lester Shepperson: My thing is education will give you a direction. Find one and do somethin' with yourself because as sure as you sit there and do nothin', you be just like scrap iron. Good for nothin' but to be what? A rust of, you know, melted down to somethin' else that you don't even recognize yourself.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Do somethin' with your life. And there's much to be done with it. Color ain't got to do with it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm?
Lester Shepperson: Color ain't got nothin' to do it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: It's come from here.
Oloye Adeyemon: In your heart.
Lester Shepperson: In here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: See what I'm sayin' to you?
Oloye Adeyemon: Would you say the same thing about race relations, that the court can't do it? It has to come from the heart.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. It has to come from the heart of people. I met—don't get me wrong, I've met some White people that are pretty nice people. You understand what I'm sayin' to you? I've met some Black ones, pretty bad ones too. So I'm sayin' to you that-that this race relation thing, it's a system that was taught in this country for 4—3, 4, 500 years, and it-it takes time for it to-to dissipate. You see what I'm sayin'? And it don't mean that we got to treat each other like dogs while it's being done, you know. But it's got to dissipate. You know what I'm sayin'? And it will dissipate.
Oloye Adeyemon: You have confidence?
Lester Shepperson: Oh, yeah. [Unintelligible 39:32] oh, yeah. They do too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: They—we all do. America can't survive with that—like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Lester Shepperson: How can we survive [unintelligible 39:42]?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: We have won. Right? How can we-how can we survive? We can't. If you-if you [unintelligible 39:53], and you don't have [unintelligible 39:56]—
Oloye Adeyemon: Intertwine.
Lester Shepperson: It's all intertwined.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Lester Shepperson: Yeah. Spiderweb.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Lester Shepperson: You're welcome.
Description
Shepperson was one of the child plaintiffs in the Davis v. County School Board case in Farmville, Va. He compares his experiences being educated in Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Maryland. Shepperson joined the U.S. Army for a tour before attended Morgan State University where he majored in psychology and criminology, finally becoming a teacher in Baltimore Maryland for 22 years.
Date Created
03/27/2024
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