Audio
The Secrets of Saving Time - Western Archeological and Conservation Center - Episode 7
Transcript
MATT GUEBARD: Hello, and welcome to the National Park Service Southwest Archaeology Podcast brought to you by the Southern Arizona Office. My name’s Matt Guebard.
SHARLOT HART: And I’m Sharlot Hart.
MG: In this episode, we’ll be talking about the Western Archaeological and Conservation Center, known by its acronym WACC. WACC is the federal repository for objects and archives from the National Park Service’s Intermountain Region, which includes the American Southwest. WACC curates nearly 14.5 million objects and archives on behalf of 71 parks. And while their focus is our region, they can also assist park units in other regions as needed. WACC also provides a centralized space for scholarly research with diverse collections in, uh, one single location. We’re talking today specifically about how WACC partners with parks, and then we’ll get to in an interview with Khaleel Saba, who is the archivist at WACC, and Dana Senge, who is the senior objects conservator.
SH: So I know I’ve talked a lot on this podcast about my experiences, uh, from back when I was frontline ranger, and-and the interpretation side of things. My first experience with WACC comes from that time period, um, of being a frontline ranger and not having any experience yet of professionally working directly with objects or archives. But, still interpreting them to the public, and knowing how important they are to fill out the story, not just for archaeologists, but also our visitors. And so WACC, as the repository for the objects and archives of the park service sites, um, m-in our region, um, and from where I was working in southern Arizona, um, all the way up to Montana. It became like my Graceland, you know, I really had to see this place, and what treasures it held. Um, and I finally got that chance during one of their marcart-March Archaeology and heritage awareness, um, tours one year. Uh, that’s the only time of year that WACC is opened to the public, and ha-they have a few tours of the repository and the archives. Getting to be on that tour highlighted everything that I had built WACC up to be in my mind. Um, a couple years later though, I went back to grad school, and I applied for and got the opportunity to be a graduate assistant in the archives division at WACC. And seeing WACC from that perspective, of being an employee who came in and clocked out every day, it turns out that WACC is just another place that people work. That work that they do is super important, um, and super helpful to the parks that they serve. Um, and it’s oftentimes hidden because I think we have put this sheen, just like I did, originally, over all of these objects that they’re conserving, and protecting, and preserving. Um, and all of that is very important, but the day in and day out of that work is just as fascinating, and isn’t talked about as much. So I’m excited to get to our interviews today, and give a behind-the-scenes listen of WACC for our, uh, for everyone today.
MG: Okay, so this is Matt Guebard, and Sharlot Hart, we’re here with Khaleel Saba, who is the acting regional archivist for the Intermountain Region Museum Services Program. Hey Khaleel.
KHALEEL SABA: Good morning.
SH: Good mornin’.
MG: Well, so, uh, we have some questions for ya, we wanna learn a little bit about what you do here. Um, we’ll start off by, can you talk a little bit, uh, about what your job is, um, and what the archival repository is here at, uh, WACC, the Western Archaeological Conservation Center.
KS: Well, I am the site manager for the archival repository. And, my duties include, I am the technical expert for a group of contractors that perform most of the archival duties here. So I oversee their work, and I assist them with their duties. I also am responsible for research requests from the public, and from park service staff who are seeking information on archival collections that we do store here. So I’m the lead in assisting with researchers, and, identifying archives and helping them find those archives.
MG: So, what-what are park service archives, I mean, what do they-what do they consist of?
KS: The records we have here, um, from over 60 national parks in the intermountain west, mainly contain what we call resource management records. So these are field records created by park service professionals, or contractors in mostly the cultural or natural history realm. So we have the field notes and the final reports and the photos. We also have personal paper collections, and administrative files from these numerous park service units.
MG: Okay. So that’s important for managers who are in the field because that’s sort of the continuity between all of the past projects, uh, and all of the things that are going on now, or might go on in the future.
KS: Yes, and the archives record the decision-making for a particular project or event, or circumstance, so managers can go back and re-create and discover why a certain decision was made, or why a decision wasn’t made for that matter.
MG: Sure. Sure, and that’s-and that’s super important for, um, for instance, archaeologists in the field because a lot of what we learn about how to do our jobs better comes from what people experienced in the past, particularly mistakes. Uh, and so we learn about how to do our jobs better by learning how folks did things right or wrong in the past.
KS: And then you don’t need to re-create the wheel.
MG: Right.
KS: If you know-if you knew-if you already know that somebody did a survey of an area that’s gonna be disturbed, you don’t have to invest into that survey again.
MG: Right.
KS: If you know what was already there.
MG: Right. All right, so, uh, how many archives are stored at WACC?
KS: We have archives from approximately 60 park service units in the Intermountain West, and there’s approximately 4.9 million items in the archives.
MG: Wow, that’s-that’s a lot. Holy cow. Okay, cool.
SH: What does an item mean?
KS: An item, well, and-we, in the archives world, you record archives by linear footage, so, one linear foot equal 1,600 pieces of paper.
SH: Okay.
KS: And it’s a management tool, we have to report, it’s a reporting tool.
SH: Mm-hmm.
KS: But in the archives world, you need to record it by linear feet. But to report to management, we have to record it by items, ‘cause the museum program is based on items, just historically artifacts.
SH: So an item could be a one-page memo documenting a trip report? Photograph? Okay.
KS: Could be a photograph, yes. An item-an item could be a hundred page report.
SH: Okay.
MG: All right, so, in the National Park Service, we think of, uh, protecting and preserving resources like archives, uh, in perpetuity, so, forever. Um, can you talk a little bit about what that means for-for you guys, uh, ‘cause that’s a really long time.
KS: Well, for-for resource records, they can be revisited years or decades after the final study was done, so it’s not uncommon for a researcher, or, park staff to return to a project that may have been completed decades ago. And they want to revisit the conclusions of that project, and maybe they have a new perspective of what those conclusions are, and so, that is one of the most important reasons why we keep these records, is because that resource is still at the park, and, the park managers still have to preserve that resource. So they always need access to these legacy records that were created. And they may find new and better ways to manage that resource. Even though they’re dealing with records that are decades old.
MG: So in a lot of ways, um, the archives, so for instance, and archaeological site, uh, we think about preserving that in perpetuity as well, but, there’s sort of this whole other side of it, the archives are associated with the site, so they’re being preserved together in a lot of ways as a-as a package.
KS: And they reflect the-the changes and the progress, and, the modifications to how that resource was preserved.
MG: Right.
KS: From 70 years ago, as opposed to modern day.
MG: Right, yeah, so, that makes me think of, um, in the parks often, uh, the bookstores will sell what are called administrative histories, which are, of course, a record of the way that a resource was managed over time. Seems like it would be really boring, but it’s not.
KS: And that is ultimately the value of the archive, is to have a body of records that reflect that evolution and change. As opposed to just one event that took place at one time. You’re looking at a whole evolution of a management policy.
MG: Right. Okay. Um, so, uh, what-what excites you most about this job?
KS: Discovering resource records that park staff didn’t know they had is probably one of the most rewarding things. ‘Cause a lot of times these records get shoved into attics, and basements, and outbuildings. And, staff doesn’t physically have access to it, and then, when we come in and do a survey, and organize it, and describe it, and give greater access to it, it’s rewarding to see staff say, oh, if I only knew about this, or I didn’t know we had that. And it-it’s rewarding to me, ‘cause it’s a sustain-it’s making their job easier. Park staff jobs easier.
MG: Mm-hmm. So is there something, uh, in the collections, uh, that you have a particular affinity for?
KS: Well, probably it would have to be the Little Bighorn, um, collection. The Elizabeth Bacon Custer collection, and, associated records. This institution has been working with Little Bighorn for over 20 years, and I’ve been to the park dozens of times, and so, I probably have an affinity to the 7th Calgary and the-the Little Bighorn archives.
MG: So can you, um, is there something in that collection that you could describe to the listeners that you think is really impressive?
KS: Well, what’s interesting is, we have a large portion of Elizabeth Bacon Custer’s, um, personal letters, so you can see the evolution and just, the history of the decades that she survived after the battle, and the correspondence she had with other generals, and, the general public, and newspapers, and you really get a sense of the perspective of where, um, Miss Custard was coming from.
MG: Interesting.
SH: Well.
MG: Interesting.
SH: Does that change your perspective on, um, the, like the pre-conceived notions you had about the battle, or about Little Bighorn at all? [OVERLAP]
KS: Well, she was an advocate for the general. And so, it-it’s there. It’s clearly a one-sided story from Elizabeth Custer, and, it’s-it’s clearly there, and that’s not a surprise.
SH: Right, [INAUDIBLE]
MG: Well, and that’s a good-that’s a good example of sort of changing public perceptions, right? Because now we try to incorporate other perspectives…
KS: The Native American perspective, yeah.
MG: …particularly Native Americans, and that’s, so you kind of get the other side of the story, which didn’t always happen particularly, yeah.
KS: For decades, yes, for decades, it was a one-sided telling of that story.
MG: Right.
KS: Based on a grieving widow.
MG: Right. Yeah, yeah. Cool, um…
SH: Fair enough.
MG: So, uh, can you talk a little bit about what, uh, preservation is in the National Park Service? About from-from your perspective?
KS: Well, I mean, it all starts with the organic act, and then, from that, flows the legislation for produ-for l-legislating these park service units, so the archives is intimately connected to that resource. Even though it may say, in the legislation, we’re protecting this ruin, by default, those archives are attached to that ruin, so even though there are legislations that say, we created this monument or park because of the archives, but those are few, those are few and far between. But, the fact that the legislation says you will protect this historic landscape, or, these-these Native American ruins, or these historic barns, it’s con-you can’t de-couple that from the archival record of those resources. Be it whatever they are. Natural, cultural, and for the public to do research. The-we-we are open to the public on-on-a-r-on a reservation basis, so.
MG: Right, okay, so, can you talk a little bit more about that? ‘Cause, uh, listeners, uh, particularly in Arizona might be…
KS: So, we do cater to, uh, particularly the-the work we do is, a historian will have a contract to write an administrative history, but we are open to the public by reservation, and you have to have a specific topic or need. You can’t come in and just say, “I want to browse archives.” There needs to be a reason, why are you want to look at a particular document, or, you have a particular topic to look at.
MG: Okay.
SH: Okay.
MG: Okay. So, uh, it-in addition they’ve kind of givin’ folks a behind the scenes view of what the park service does, um, I think we also want people to feel like maybe they can help participate in preservation, so is there anything that, uh, that listeners can do, um, to support, uh, archival preservation?
KS: The most important thing for the public to do, is be involved when the National Park Service or the Department of I-Interior is asking for comments on a particular policy. It’s important that the public weigh in on that particular issue. That’s one of the most important things, is the public to be involved in the scoping period, or the open period for comment. Because the powers that be need to know that the public is involved and engaged in whatever that may be. Whatever policy that is, or whatever comments that the government is seeking. It’s crucial that the general public get involved, and voice their opinion.
MG: Okay, cool. Um, so, we asked this question, uh, to Dana, um, yesterday, uh, so-so in your job, uh, you’re focused on preserving archives, does that d-does what you do at your job, does that affect your personal life? Are there things that you do at home that, um, sort of mirror what you do here?
KS: Oh, of course, like, my siblings, I am the default to digitize and organize…
MG: [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH]
KS: …the-the family papers, of course. Yeah. So, but, beyond that, it’s kind of the-the cobblers children have no shoes, I’m not as-I need to be more organized at home with my paper records.
MG: [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH]
KS: Than I am here at work.
MG: Yeah.
SH: I think we all agree it’s-that that is how we-we all behave at home.
KS: Yeah. [LAUGH]
MG: Yeah. Absolutely. ‘Kay, so, uh, thanks for talkin’ with us, Khaleel, it was, uh, it was great.
KS: Yes, it was my pleasure, and, enjoy your parks.
SH: Yeah, thanks. Thank you.
SH: So, I think it’s really important to highlight something that Khaleel said in that interview. Um, he responded to one of Matt’s questions, saying that, to have a body of records that reflect the evolution and change in park management is the whole point of archives, and, um, and I think that that’s something that I didn’t necessarily realize as a frontline ranger, um, and certainly, um, learned when I was in grad school, uh, and an archives intern, is that, um, we’re not just saving every scrap of paper that the park produces, that-that would be, um, unimaginable, um, but, showing, um, how the management decisions on how we preserve places is vital to the continuing management of those places, so that we can learn from our mistakes, um, and, uh, essentially make better mistakes the next time around. Um, so that was the archives side, let’s hear what Dana has to say about conservation at WACC.
SH: So, Matt Guebard and I are here today with Dana Senge, who’s the head conservator as Western Archeological and Conservation Center in Tucson. Um, and the Western Archaeological and Conservation Center is a place that supports our parks throughout the Intermountain Region. Um, so we’re just gonna talk with Dana and find out how she supports our parks. So Dana, tell me about your job.
DANA SENGE: Well, um, thanks, Sharlot for inviting me to do this. Um, my job is to lead the conservation team and contribute to the museum services program here at WACC. And, um, we have the-the building hosts the conservation facilities for the region, which is a really wonderful thing that we have to support our parks, so we have, uh, a couple of conservation labs, and we have a team of specialists who work directly with the repair and care of artifacts. Um, so my job is to lead on those projects, and to work directly with a lot of our parks to understand the needs and help get to their preservation needs.
SH: Nice, and before, you were the lead conservator, the-or the head conservator, you were the assistant conservator, how was that job or position different?
DS: Um, I was a little more directly involved in implementing the projects, so, um, project management, but also doing direct conversation treatments and, um, and teaching maybe more often. Our concer-our conservation technicians as well as, um, getting a little bit more into the longer part of projects with our park staff.
SH: Nice. Um, so artifacts and, um, and the archival documentation that goes along with them are stored here at the Western Archaeological and Conservation Center at WACC, uh, for, um, for what’s called in perpetuity. Which mean forever, essentially. Um, and that’s a really long time. So, um, for a lot of folks, they might think that once an excavation or discovery is done, that’s the end, but your work really starts there, and lives in that kind of end space for the rest of us, so, um, do you have any thoughts on that? Or, um, or, can you speak to that?
DS: Well, it is hard thing for a lot of people to remember, when they wanna use artifacts that, um, they’re-they’re thinking, I wanna put this on exhibit, and they’re not thinking about the length of the exhibit, or what that exhibit conditions will, um, how that will affect the object, so I do come into this every once in a while, and what I tend to, um, to go to is, a hundred year cycles. And we kind of think that way in conservation, I hope it’s-I hope other conservators will be okay with me saying that, um, that we try to think about, okay, what I’m going to do, how is that going to last in the next hundred years, and will the next person be able to remove what I’ve done, and change it once new-new materials are available, and new technologies out there. So, one of the things that I’ve been able to tap into, is the centennial, and say to people we-we have this after hundred years today, and we’re trying to preserve it ‘till the next, um, the bicentennial, and, kind of think about it in those terms, and sometimes people get a little closer to understanding, um, uh, of the-in perpetuity, which is a little bit harder to-to quantify.
SH: Right? Yeah.
DS: And we-we can’t make a decision today that will last for in perpetuity, what i can do today only lasts a little while, and it may be a hundred years, but if-if you say in perpetuity, a hundred years is only a little while. [LAUGH] Uh, but the materials that we use to-to store objects, and to repair objects, they do, um, deteriorate with time, it’s just, we’re trying to select things that do that very slowly, and in a way that isn’t going to be harmful to the object when we have to remove the material from the object or the object from the container, or something like that.
SH: Great. So, something you just said reminded me that-back when I was a park ranger at Tuzigoot, and we, um, put in the new museum that, um, after your lab had done a lot of work on the pots there. Um, we showed the cracks, and, the voids in these artifacts, where we didn’t have necessarily a piece to make the pot whole. Um, and so, what we would tell visitors, uh, when-when they were asking about the pots, or if we had a program about them, that, um, the conservators who had worked on the pots in the 1930’s, and then put them together with really hard glue, um, that they were doing the best they knew how at that time. Um, do you think that that still holds true? Or, um…
DS: I think that’s a very fair way to say it, I think we commonly, as human beings, I’m not gonna throw all the conservatives under the bus, but everybody kind of looks at the past and goes, what were they thinking? And I g-often sit in the lab going, oh, gosh, what is somebody gonna say about me in 50 years’ time. We are doing the best we can with the information we’ve got, and the materials we’ve got right now. And, um, which is why we try to test n-now we try to test materials to see, we’ll put them into artificial aging situations to see how they could be reacting, um, over time, and, there’s and advantage now to testing materials that I don’t know that we had 50 years ago, or was thought of doing 50 years ago, I’d have to say, I don’t even know what was available to test those materials 50 years ago. So, or 100 years ago. But we are very fortunate that the materials selected for a lot of those pots, for example, was very reversible.
SH: How nice.
DS: So, even though it degraded, and it weakened, which meant that the-the fragments, or the sherds were starting to collapse, and the pots were starting to fall apart, we could safely remove all of that material and, um, put new adhesive in. So, we were very fortunate with the-that particular material selected. There was a lot of other odd ones out there…
SH: [LAUGH]
DS: …that we run into, but…
SH: I imagine those make for interesting days in the lab, when you don’t know what’s in front of you?
DS: Really, uh, yeah. [LAUGH] We try to do a lot of testing before we even start, but there are times when something, our s-little spot tests on a material aren’t, um, giving us as accurate of information as we think, and we’ll be in the middle of a treatment and discover we misread the information we were gathering earlier and misunderstood. And we’re in for a battle. [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH]
DS: We’re-we’re really just in for a lot longer treatment than we estimated, so.
SH: Hm. What are you working on in the lab now? Or what is your staff working on [LAUGH] in the lab now?
DS: Um, we have three, or four-four projects going on in the lab right now. We’re just wrapping up a really big project for Yellowstone. They have a map, that, in the Mammoth hotel that is, uh, was made in the ‘30’s, and they were doing renovations in the hotel, so when they took the map down and brought it down here to WACC for some cleaning, and some replacement of coatings, and that kind of stuff, so. That’s been a really neat project to have around, um, and we have some prehistoric ceramics getting treated for exhibit, we have some historic silver that’s, uh, um, being cleaned and getting ready for exhibit. And then, uh, we have ethnographic material from the Grand Teton collection that’s, um, a wide range of cultures that were brought together for that collection, and, we have been treating that one for, um, that group of material for about a decade, so…
SH: Oh, wow.
DS: …we’ve got, about a hundred more pieces out of that collection to take care of, so, we’re pretty excited to have gotten this far, although, it’s a beautiful collection to have in the lab, so we’ll be sad when it’s done as well. [LAUGH]
SH: I have to say, your lab has windows to the hallways, um, so that visitors and the rest of the staff can see, um, a little bit of what you’re working on, and, uh, and it’s been very nice to be able to look in and see these very colorful, um, objects come through, it’s been very nice.
DS: Yeah, yeah, they’re-they’re a treasure and, a lot of people really appreciate having got to see them through the last decade.
SH: Yeah.
DS: Getting-getting their treatments done, it’s…
SH: Will they be going back on display?
DS: There are a few pieces on exhibit at Grand Teton right now, and those were actually recently, one exhibit came down and a new one went up. And there’s a rotation schedule, I’m not exactly sure of the timing, if it’s like, a four-year, um, four-year rotation, but, um, so, about a hundred objects at a time are getting up on exhibit up there, and, unt-the park is working on some other stuff, so I don’t know if in the long-run they’ll have larger exhibits or not, but, we have an ex-an active program with the curator up there.
SH: Okay. Um, can you tell me what a rotation schedule is, and how your lab helps with one?
DS: Yes, um, there are objects-some objects are more sensitive to light damage than others, um, light and heat, um, start off deterioration reactions, if you remember high school chemistry, that is commonly, um what can give it reaction to go. And so, we are…
SH: It’s also in the fire triangle, for any wildland firefighters out there, you need-you need your heat, and, yeah. [LAUGH]
DS: [LAUGH] There ya go. So we’re-we’re thinking about the same, it, um-um, less, less extreme situation. Um, however, um, it’s, um, something that we use as a guideline in exhibit planning, and-and thinking about how long is something going to be on exhibit, what is the environment of that space, and, what is the intensity of light that’s hitting that material? Um, so some pieces of dyed quillwork for example, on ethnographic objects from Grand Teton, they’re very beautiful, very vivid, and we don’t want them to fade any further than they may have already faded. And so, we recommend short exhibits at low light levels, so, two to four years, depending on the situation, and then about 50 lux, which is five foot candles, if anybody’s interested. Um, and that, uh, helps us slow deterioration, and that’s something that I often and talking about, is, saving those materials for the next hundred years, and-and so on, so we-so not only we can appreciate them, and learn from them, but, our grandkids and so on, so. Um, your to your original question with what is an exhibit rotation plan, w-in designing an exhibit these days, we are trying to understand, can we rotate, um, do we have enough objects of similar-that tell us some more story that we can create a rotation plan? So, sometimes it’s very specifically designed at the beginning of the exhibit, and other times it’s just knowing that in four years, we need to change the exhibit, and rotate it off, so, at Grand Teton, it’s completely changed by the curator, um, to bring in another park, Tonto National Monument has a set exhibit, that has-we’ve identified rotation groups that will tell the same story of tec-in the textiles exhibit. So we have three plain-weave textiles that are similar size that can all fit in the same slot, and we can take one off and put the other one on, and we have a cycle for that, so.
SH: That’s an incredible amount of planning.
DS: It is. I actually have a calendar that goes out 40 years for that particular…
SH: [LAUGH]
DS: Because the last exhibit, I think was up for about 40 years, so. Don’t know if we really want to admit that. [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH] They were doing the best that they knew.
DS: Feel free, well, the-the and feel free to take any of this out, but, I-what I feel is that we-we’re-we were doing the best that we knew, we know better, we can’t do better. And that’s part of the challenge in the park service is, uh, I think a lot of us are fighting, uh, or tr-not fighting, but, we’re trying to find efficient ways to do better, how can we actually, um, make sure that’s not a 50 year old exhibit.
SH: Right.
DS: Or it doesn’t last for 50 years, and, my best effort was to make it an exhibit rotation instead of saying you have to change this in 20 years, because, who’s gonna be around to remember that? And are we gonna have the funding, and, that kind of stuff.
SH: Right, right.
DS: So, that is-that is a challenge.
SH: So the world that you work in is-is kind of like you’ve-you’ve got the knowing, knowing is half the battle, so now you’re in the second half of the battle of being creative. So in all this work that you’re doing with, um helping parks come up with rotation schedules for their museums, and, um, just caring for the objects, the-that are in storage until they are maybe rotated out, I’ve heard you before talk about customer service, um, when you’re talking about parks, and the curators at parks that you’re working with. Um, and what-so why do you use that phrase?
DS: Well, I, um, I think about it a lot as, uh, all of the parks are our clients, and, we’re here to hear what they know, hear what they’re concerned about, and then match what we’re, um, what we know to what they know, and, um, I just, I think part of it is, I use it a lot when I’m talking to my staff to remind them, we’re not in charge, we are the reference. We can recommend, but we don’t-we m-we don’t make decisions, actually, in conservation. We’re here to be a reference to everyone else, but the curators make the decisions about the collections. That’s my understanding of-of o-our setup. And, um, so I-I really, um, use that a lot to just kind of remind people what-what we’re here for, and really, an attitude to go out, to talking to the parks as, um, not that we swoop in with all of the knowledge. That we swoop in, and we learn a heck of a lot.
SH: [LAUGH]
DS: [LAUGH] And then we provide some information to s-um, to augment what’s already happening, and what people already know. We have real diverse, uh, body of knowledge in the parks, and, um, it’s-I’m learning every time I go into the park so much, um, not just about the museum collections, but how they fit into the parks, and how people have been able to care for them, and-and movements of preservation within the park service, so, how used to try to teach, and put the-put, um, the tools in the park, um, staff hands, and then, what I’m imp-im-excuse me. What I’m inspired to do today based on what was successful 30 years ago, and-and how I’m gonna wanna try to explain something today, or, just recognize that it’s hard to, um, keep a program going as our park staff move around the country.
SH: Nice. So, do you find, um, that you’re essentially working with, uh, a team that’s really integrated, but a different team every time?
DS: A lot of times, yeah, and I think that, um, the other thing that we-the other role that we play in conservation is trying to be a bridge of information, so not just recognizing, um, uh, well-well, we did this this way with this park last year, but now we have a whole new curator, so I can give them some information that I, uh, from the last curator that I learned, and then within a few months’ time, they’re gonna be teaching me a whole new c-um, group of things, because they’re seeing a whole different array of issues, because they have a different body of knowledge, and, s-so.
SH: Wow, hm.
DS: It is, um, it is a lot of learning, and-and sharing.
SH: Cool.
DS: But, rather than, um, just walking in and teaching, if that makes any sense, the difference to me there, so.
SH: No, it does, I think, um, another thing from-form back when I was a frontline ranger was that we used to say, you know, science isn’t dead, and a lot of kids lear-I think learn in school, like, that, um, this is how chemistry works, and so, because they’re given, um, uh, you know static ideas and-and laws of physics, essentially, that then that science is static, so maybe not science is dead, but stati-science is static, and it’s not, it-it is always evolving.
DS: Yeah. Yeah, and so not only is the field of conservation always evolving because it has a lot of science in it. [LAUGH]
SH: Right.
DS: But, also just how successful we are in each park, at, um, at-at our preservation activities changes, as the different staff comes in and out, and different restrictions, um, exist or are lifted, so. There are always influx.
SH: Cool. So, how often do you get to do research on the collections as well?
DS: Um, r-rarely. [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH] Yikes.
DS: I would say never, except for, you brought a research project to me, recently. [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH]
DS: Um, it-it-is-that’s the first research project I’ve really done with collections. In conservation we do some research related to materials to be used around collections, so we do take samples of materials that we’re curious about, to see how well they, um, how-if they cause reactions with, uh, metals, which is a good indicator to us that they could be corrosive, or otherwise damaging to other materials. Um, so, we-we do a tiny bit of research in that area. Um, but, um, and the other thing that we were trying to is, not just understand the materials that we’re using, but then, how easily we can help people implement them, so, um, w-we might come up with a solution that, if you had a, uh, c-conservation lab at your disposal at all times, and you could complete very successfully, and then we’ll try to come up with a solution that if you don’t have a conservation lab at your disposal at all times, you can go and buy things off the shelf and construct, so.
SH: Which is especially useful for most of our parks that are 30 miles away from the nearest grocery store?
DS: Yes. And that. [LAUGH]
SH: Yeah. Nice. Um, what excites you most about your current projects?
DS: Um, it, honestly, helping parks. I get really excited when we get to go into a new place, and learn from a new group of people what’s been going on, and then start to help understand, um, the priorities, uh, that we see from conservation, and how those can marry with the parks priorities, whether it’s just the-the museum collection priorities or the greater park. And then starting to help achieve those, I just-that’s, of course, I think a lot of us are excited by the new, um, so, I-I have to be honest that I get excited there too. And then, of course, being successful at that, and actually getting through a project and, um, having truly been able to help, that’s pretty cool, so.
SH: Nice. Um, is there an artifact that you have a personal affinity for? [LAUGH]
DS: [LAUGH] I, um, I get excited a-I will honestly say I get excited about basically the last thing that I was working on. We have some really incredible collections here at WACC, some prehistoric material from the southwest that, um, I get very excited to look at, and, um, there’s some s-um, fragments of prehistoric textile that I find, having-having worked in weaving in the past, I find really fascinating to look at. And then, of course the prehistoric ceramics, some of the design work on those is just, uh, stunning, so, I love it when we pull those materials out, in particular.
SH: Nice. Um, are there any collections, or-or even just a simple artifact that really strike you as being a good example of the preservation movement that you were speaking to?
DS: Um, sure, we have in the-I can actually speak to something where I was around for the beginning of, so, the-in the early, um, early years of me-my being here, and I’ve only been here for just over seven years, so. In, uh, 2010, I was part of, um, a couple of surveys of museum collections that, um we were able to understand the need of the prehistoric ceramic collections, and then start to seek funding, um, the National Park Foundation got excited about the data we had gathered, and wanted to help us seek funding, so they started to also do some fundraising, and we have, through their help, been able to actually start addressing some of those treatments.
SH: That’s great.
DS: O-one of the things about prehistoric ceramics, um, is-we’ve kind of touched on it earlier, I-I think, too, there were construc-re-constructed by archaeologists to learn design, form, um, and a lot of work was done to them, but those materials are aging, and in some cases, those, um, pieces are starting to fall apart on the shelf. So, a sherd might fall and hit another part of the pot, and damage, it. It might hit another pot and damage it, so there are-are reasons for us to actually go in at least to-to stabilize those materials, and so it’s great to, um, to do that from…
SH: Yeah.
DS: …to minimize harm, I also love that we’re preserving what somebody did 100 years ago to learn, and we of course are learning more from that, from-as the conservators, we’re not necessarily changing, um, uh, the archaeological knowledge, but, um, I just really, I like that we’re kind of doing a two-fold there, in, um preserving its original, um, it’s not original state, preserving its, um, preserving what’s left of the object, excuse me. Um, but also preserving the park service’s impact on the object too.
SH: Right. Definitely. Um, and how has that project progressed?
DS: We are, um, we’ve been able to treat, I think, 30 of those objects, if I remember correctly. Um, we have hundreds to treat, and so we’re still seeking money for that. [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH]
DS: Through various sources, so.
SH: Excellent. Um, how do you prioritize objects when you have hundreds, and, money to treat 30?
DS: Um, it really does depend on the situation. The first thing we’re gonna do is, if it’s actively falling apart, that’s the first thing we really want to treat. Um, sometimes exhibit comes into play, so, this is-these we might have 50 that are actively falling apart, and 10 of them, we want to put on exhibit, so those 10 will be the first 10 that we [INAUDIBLE]. So, it-it really is balanced with the needs of the park, and that’s really, um, the decisions that we made in what is going to be treated and when, and what money’s going to be spend on conservation really is, um, not just from the conservation perspective, it is weighing in these other, um, the-the other issues from a curation perspective. What is the history of the piece? What is the significance to the park? Um, to s-the significance to, um academia, I believe i-is appropriate to say, and then, of course, do we want to put it on exhibit, and, um, so we’re gonna-we’re going to be prioritizing based on that, so I’m usually saying to a curator, here’s my urgencies, and then they’re gonna say back, okay, I’m gonna skip over three, but we’re gonna go one, two, and four, and five, or something like that, so.
SH: Okay, all right. Um, how can our podcast listeners learn more about preservation, and, um, and what you do? What conservationist-conservators do? [LAUGH]
DS: Um, I think w-what-there’re a lot of online resources for learning more about preservation and conservation. One of the things that may be helpful to keep in mind when a c-um, one of the podcast listeners, is that a museum is to understand the light levels are low for a particular reason, or, um, understand why we’re choosing the-the material we’re choosing. Some museums, I’ve n-I haven’t yet seen a park do this, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Um, may have an adopt an object program, and you can contribute a little bit of money to preserve that in one way or another, and so, I encourage you to not feel like it’s a lot of money to help, but if you wanna put a little something towards, um, something a park is working for, it’s a r-or, a museum in general. Uh, that is a way to support a preservation of doing so. And there some things out there for, um preserving your own treasures, um, so there’s some website out there to even just, um, I think one can just search for, um, uh, conservation of-of cultural heritage and start to understand… There used to be a book, like preserving o-our own treasures, or, preserver treasures, or something like that.
SH: Nice. I think the, um, website for WACC also has s-some of those links that you’re mentioning on it, so, we can re-direct our listeners there.
DS: Yes, yes, thank you. [LAUGH]
SH: Yeah. Definitely.
MG: I have a few that aren’t on the list.
DS: Let’s go.
SH: [LAUGH]
MG: All right, so, um, WACC has probably what h-hundreds of thousands of-of objects…
DS: Mm-hmm.
MG: …in their repository representing thousands, and thousands of years of-of history. Um, for me, so-so I spend a fair amount of time here, but for me, one of the more interesting objects was Custer’s jacket.
DS: Oh, yeah?
MG: So, uh, one of the things, w-why it’s so interesting is because I have this picture of him in my head, which was based on, in part being a kid, and, reading about him, or seeing, you know, depictions of him on the television and I was surprised by how small the jacket was, how sort of, demure it was. And how ornate it was, and it was very different than what, um my idea of him was, so, are there any objects that you’ve worked on in the past that have sort of changed your opinion about, um, uh, a group or a-or a person?
DS: Well, I-i-i-your story brings to mind a very similar experience of mine, prior to working with the park service. I ended up working on one of Elvis’ jackets.
SH: No way. [LAUGH]
DS: And it was the same exact thing, [LAUGH] it was much smaller than I anticipated.
MG: Was like, a rhinestone [INAUDIBLE]?
DS: It was-it was not, it was from his earlier years, so.
MG: Oh, Okay.
DS: Anyway, I just-I know that’s not completely related, but it is one of the first times where I’m, whoa. [LAUGH]
MG: What’s interesting, I think it speaks to the importance of, um, conservation because the actual objects can help you to understand the people that they’re associated with in ways that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to do.
DS: That scale in a picture can’t quite relay, yeah, yeah, I think that’s really, I think the, um, objects w-specifically will add-are so similar to w-what we might think today, on the ones that are most effective with that, so clothing, um, and then, of course, utilitarian items from around our, um, lives. One of my favorite places to work was actually up in Alaska, because you get to start to see solutions, problem-solving from the cultures that is so different, but is so, um, so successful. Um, to, if you r-um, were to compare contemporary, um, boots to, um, boots made a few hundred years ago, with um, the different skins, and that kind of stuff, of the-even just the different stitches that people came up with. To live successfully in such a remote environment with access to such different materials, I love that, to see that contrast, it’s one of my favorite things, so.
MG: Interesting. Um, I think another question I have it to-so you spend, y-you’ve spent your career, uh, conserving these objects, oftentimes historic object, which, like you mentioned, are very similar to the things that we sort of have in our houses. Um, how does your job affect the way that you, uh, curate your own objects at home, or-or the way that you take care of things at your home, or does it?
DS: Um, it’s-it doesn’t fully. [LAUGH]
SH: [LAUGH]
DS: I will admit that I have been an unofficially named the family archivist, so I have taken care of the family things, but I also in my downtime, um, I make art, and I-I-I break the rules.
MG: Hm.
DS: [LAUGH] I glue it together with stuff from the hardware store, instead of making my own glue, like I would in the lab. So, um, that’s-I-I kind of save it all up for here. Um, and I tend-I tend to be a little bit more, um, I run into things a little bit more outside of the building than I do in the building. It’s like, I save all of it-all of my-my persh-precision out for being at work, and then I-I’m a little less precise, so.
SH: That’s funny, I have, um, the-the printouts of the, um, uh, sonogram photos from my baby that I should have put in sleeves, you know, being trained as an archivist, I should have put in sleeves a year and a half ago. Um, and they’re still just on the fridge, because, you know, that’s-that’s where I get to see them, and, um, and, yeah, I save a lot of it for my work.
DS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will say that I chuckle at myself more than when my [OVERLAP] ‘cause I know that I’m doing it.
SH: [LAUGH]
MG: [LAUGH]
DS: Um, but I, um, but I’m probably no better than anyone else in taking care of my personal stuff.
SH: Well Dana, thank you so much for talking with us today, this has been an awesome discussion. And, uh, we appreciate your time.
DS: Thanks a lot, I really enjoyed it.
MG: Hm. That’s great, thanks.
MG: So the general public might sometimes think of artifact conservation as occurring right after, uh, an archaeological excavation. Which it certainly does, but there’s this whole other side, uh, that Dana really did a good job of illustrating, uh, that’s much more long-term. Thinking about how to protect artifacts when they’re in the repository, uh, in part so that future archaeologists, uh, can study them in, um, greater detail and understanding how to rotate collections in museum exhibits. Um, all things that are really important to understand, and are part of, uh, historic preservation, um, at large.
SH: Definitely, I think that both Dana and Khaleel today really exemplified, um, some of those hidden parts of historic preservation that aren’t necessarily out in the open, or shiny. Um, but are essential to, um, to what parks do, and without their help, parks couldn’t, you know, complete the cycle of historic preservation.
SH: Thanks for listening today. The US maps made of different woods that Dana described is now back at Yellowstone National Park, and up in the Mammoth Hotel. Plan a trip to see it for yourself. We’re looking forward to our next episode where we continue our conversation about historic preservation.
SH: The National Park Service Southwest Archaeology Podcast is a production of the Southern Arizona Office of the National Park Service. Our artwork was designed by Laura Varon-Burkhart. Justin Mossman composed our music. We look forward to hearing from you. Matt and I will be with you again next month.
Description
In our latest episode we interview archivist Khaleel Saba and conservator Dana Senge who both work for the Intermountain Region's Western Archeological and Conservation Center (WACC). They give us an idea of the work that goes in to preserving archeological records and objects after all the "work" is done.
**Links in this episode** WACC: https://www.nps.gov/WACC Grand Teton National Park: https://www.nps.gov/GRTE
Duration
47 minutes, 42 seconds
Credit
NPS - Southern Arizona Office
Date Created
02/27/2018
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