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Oral History Project - Forren, Chan 1980
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These interviews are presented here in their original form, unmodified, in an effort to preserve and share the history of our park and its surrounding area. The memories, comments, and viewpoints shared by interviewees in the materials of the New River Gorge Oral History Project and related documents do not represent the viewpoints of the National Park Service.
Interview NRCJNPP 017
File NRGNPP 017-T
TAPE SEVENTEEN
Mr. Chan Forren
Interviewer:
Paul J. Nyden
Beckley, W. Va. 25801
November 1, 1980
PN: Mr. Forren, maybe to begin, you could mention when you were born and where you were born.
CF: Well, I was borned February the 5th, 1920 at Lookout, West Virginia.
PN: And what was your father doing at the time that you were born?
CF: My father was a coal miner. He was employed by the Boone Mining Company.
PN: Did your father work in the gorge or on top of the gorge at that time?
CF: Top of the gorge, until 1928; then he moved down in the gorge Branch Coal and Coke Company at Elverton, West Virginia. And he continued his coal mining there until he died in 1935.
PN: How old was your Dad when he died?
CF: Only 52 years old.
PN: Was that related at all to the fact that he worked in the mines for many years?
CF: Well, I, I'd, I'd contribute [sic] it to mining experience. Of course, in those days, you know, coal mining was more hazard than it is now, due to —detonation was bad, and miners used to shoot off of solid, which they don rt do nowadays. Yea, I'd say a lot of it was contributed to coal mining, right.
PN: And he probably breathed a lot of dust and stuff too in his life?
CF: Definitely, definitely, right, yes sir, that's for sure. He died young; he was only 52 years old.
PN: What did his father do? Was his father a miner too?
CF: No, his father was a farmer.
PN: Where, in Fayette County?
CF: Monroe County.
PN: Monroe County?
CF: Yea. My father was born in Monroe County.
PN: Were your mother's parents from Monroe County around there too?
CF: Right. Most of ‘em, my father and mother were from Monroe County.
PN: Were your mother's parents, were they farmers, or miners?
CF: Farmers, right.
PN: Farmers?
CF: Farmers, right, right.
PN: Talking about you, yourself, when did you begin working and how old were you then?
CF: I begin to work for the Branch Coal and Coke Company at Elverton, West Virginia, July the 6th, 1936, and I was 16 years old.
PN: What was your first job there?
CF: My first job was picking bone, slate, on the tipple, $3.50 per day.
PN: Did you go into the mine later?
CF: Right. And that was on the bottom tipple, and I gradually moved to the top tipple, dumping coal out of the mine car into the chute. Then went inside, at braking on the mainline motor. And I stayed there until July, July the first, 1945, and I went to Layland. And been at Layland from then till now.
PN: And you 're still working in the mines now?
CF: Well, I 'm not in the mines, but I’m working at, at the mines at the present time — tipple operator.
PN: In 1928, when you first moved to…
CF: Elverton.
PN: Elverton, was there a union there at that time?
CF: Right.
PN: There was?
CF: Local Union 6169. I vas Treasurer of that union, oh, approximately five or six years.
PN: That's Elverton local?
CF: Elverton local.
PN: And even when you moved there, when your father started working there, there was a local union?
CF: No, no, not in '28. See, we didn't organize till '33.
PN: Yea, yea, that's what I was going to ask you.
CF: Right, right, organized in '33.
PN: Had there been a union once, say in 1919- 1920, before the union was broken around here?
CF: I don't know at that time whether there was a union at Elverton or not. I would say there was, but now I'm not positive. No sir, I don't know whether they had their little local there when they was first organized in 1918 or, 1918 or 1919 or '20, somewhere along in there. I’m not positive whether they was organized at that time or not. But I do know definitely they organized in 1933.
PN: After Roosevelt came in?
CF: Right.
PN: And NRA?
CF: Right, right.
PN: Do you have any memories as to what happened then when they reorganized the United Mine Workers?
CF: Well, there was some representative, I remember the night it happened there at Elverton. Of course, you had a little, that was down in the gorge, and they had a little school building on this property. And there was a representative from the UMW District office, at that time it was 17, there wasn't no 29. The representative come out of District 17. And they organized It one night.
PN: Did most of the people working at the mine come to a meeting where this man spoke?
CF: Right. We all, we all met at the, of course I was there at the time; I was only 13 years old. But they all met at the I was there but they all met at the little school house, all the miners. And they signed pledge cards to sign up with the UMW.
PN: Was that happening in all the towns along the gorge about that same time?
CF: Right, right, yes sir, that is right.
PN: During the period in the twenties I don't know if you could remember this or not — but did a lot of people talk about the union even when the union was broken? And there were no locals?
CF: Really I don't, I can't recall, I mean I don't know too much about that
because, see, I was born in 1920; and of course as a child from '20 on up till '30 or '33, you don't pay, I mean there could have been a lot of talk about it, but a youngster don't pay any attention to it, you know. I do remember well when they organized 'em in 1933. But beyond that I, no, I don't know too much about the union, when it was first organized.
PN: And you said you were an officer at the Elver ton local for five or six years?
CF: Five or six years, I was Treasurer of that local union, 6169 was the number of it. I got a local badge here somewhere.
PN: And then you moved, working, up to Lay land?
CF: 1 left Elver ton in 1945 and went to Layland New River and Pocahontas Consolidated Coal Company at that time. And worked for them till they blew the mine out in 1961. Then the Sparks Coal Company taken it over, and he operated it from 1961 until 1969. Then A.T. Massey taken it over; he operated it from t 69 till '70 — only operated it about one year. At the present time, the Royal Coal Company has it. And they've operated it since 70, and operate it at the present time.
PN: What offices did you hold in that local union?
CF: I've been Financial Secretary since 1962.
PN: Did you ever attend International conventions?
CF: Oh yea, I…
PN: As a delegate?
CF: Yea, yea. I attended the, I believe now, I’m pretty sure, I attended the '56, '60, '64, '68, and I attended the, the '76 at Cincinnati. Yea,
I didn’t attend the last one; It was held in Denver.
PN: What, you did?
CF: I didn't. I was, I was elected delegate, but I didn't attend. But
I did attend the last one in Cincinnati in 76. Yea, I, I 've been to about five of them.
PN: I was wondering if I could ask you a few questions about what your memories of Elverton were in the years you lived there, what, from '28 to, did you live there till 45?
CF: Went there in 28 as a child — eight years old — and left there in 1945.
PN: I was wondering if I could ask you about your memories, say, in the late twenties and thirties — just some things about the town itself, if that's OK. About how many people were living there when you first moved there?
CF: I would say approximately, no more than 150 that's children and all. I'd say there was around maybe 75, 80, 85, or 75 employees.
PN: At the mine?
CF: Right, mm. But it was on, down in the gorge, there was no road in to it. The only, the only transportation you had in and out [of] the gorge was by railroad at that time. Of course, they eventually did build a little road from Gatewood. I don't know whether you was ever at Gatewood or not.
PN: Is that on the top?
CF: Yea. Down to the mine. But then after you got, you, you could get your automobile to the mine, but then after you got out of your automobile, you had to take the little hoist over the mountain, the incline, the little car that they let you up and down the hill on.
PN: Down to the coal camp?
CF: Down into the community, right.
I guess there were no roads then in the, in the community. Were there paths between the homes?
CF: Oh yea, yea, they had, see they had to haul house coal down there. So they had a team of horses and a wagon. And that's the way they deliver house coal and deliver, delivered groceries from the company store. 1 mean, some of them may be raising a few hogs or cattle or something, and go down to the store and maybe buy, buy four— or five—hundred pound bags of feed. And they'd have to deliver it on the wagon, with the team. So that's, that's the only transportation they had in the community was a team.
PN: And that was a team and wagon that was owned by the company?
CF: Right, right. And they paid the, the fellow to take care of it, right.
PN: How many houses were there there, would you guess?
CF: Yes sir, I’ll tell you in a few minutes approximately I'd say oh I can see it plain 50 or 60, mm.
PN: And you mentioned the school building before where they held the meeting for the union.
CF: Right.
PN: What other types of buildings did they have in town?
CF: Well, they had a, they had a, of course they had the store and they had a movie theater.
PN: They did?
CF: Yea. Of course, that's, that was a big recreation at that time was going to the movies. And that's about it — the store and the movie theater.
PN: Did they have any churches?
CF: Oh yea, yea. Well, no, no, no now, I’m wrong about that. The, of course they had, at that time, you know, it was more or less segregated. They had the colored community and the white community. So the white had their church; they attended church in the school building. But the colored, they did the same thing in theirs; that, that was considered their church and school building.
PN: And there was two different buildings, and they…
CF: That's right, that's right. See, you didn't, I mean they didn't live together like, I mean your neighbor might not be a colored man like it is now. They was on one end of town, and white on the other back in those days. [laughs] That's right.
PN: Was relations between the different races pretty good, or…
CF: Oh yea, yes sir, yes sir. There was some wonderful colored people, that's right. There wasn't, oh now and then you make take a, you know, misunderstanding between some of the white children and the colored children, which they do that today. But, no, they got along wonderful. There was some good people in that little community.
PN: And everybody worked in the mine, right?
CF: Right, right.
PN: Did they work in the same sections usually, or…?
CF: Yea, yea, sure, right. Everyone worked on the same section. I mean not the same section, different sections; but white and colored did work on different, I mean worked together on some of the sections, right.
PN: How many men would be working in a section at that time? About 16 or something?
CF: Well, see it was all hand—loading at that time, wasn't no machinery at all.
PN: Yea, that's right, yea.
CF: I mean you'd have a place here, a place here, and a place there. Everything was put in the car by shovel and pick. So you may have a entry, or, maybe 15 or 20 men work on that entry on the right, and maybe 15 or 20 over here on the left. And go on up, turn right and left.
PN: When, you started working in ' 36, right?
CF: 1936, July the 16th.
PN: And it was all, it was hand—loading then?
CF: All of it was hand—loading at that mine, right.
PN: They didn't have Joy loaders or anything like that?
CF: No, they didn't have no Joy loaders. Lay land was a big mine. They didn't have no Joy loaders at Lay land until about 1952 or '3. It was all hand—loading.
PN; Really?
CF: Yes sir.
PN: Did you have cutting machines in there at Elverton?
CF: Cutting, right.
PN: What kind were they? Those duckbill type machines?
CF: No, just a long, it's a long—type machine; it had a cutter bar on it — it come out something like that. It just cut the coal.
PN: Who made that? Did Joy make that?
CF: Really I don't remember now who, who manufactured those machines. I believe they were Goodmans.
PN: Goodmans?
CF: I'm positive they were Goodmans, Goodman cutting machine, right.
PN: Were they still using mules when you started working?
CF: Not at that mine, not at that mine. They had motors.
PN: They did?
CF: Right. Now I can remember the mules when they had them there at Lookout, when I was just a little boy. I can remember the mules.
PN: When your father was working up there?
CF: Right, right, right. Over at Elver ton, no, they didn't use the mules.
PN: Did they ever use, you know, horses or ponies or oxen or any other type of animals in the bigger…
CF: Well I would say in, in the, if you got a mine that's got the height, what you could you horses, maybe on the mainline. But they had to use the little, well a mule, of course, he, he's a pretty good—size animal. But your pony is what they used on the section, you know. Or either pony—power or man—power; it's usually the man had to push his car in and out of the face. [laughs]
PN: I remember when I was in Morgantown in 1970, there was a mine right outside of Morgantown that still was using ponies.
CF: Yea. Well you know when they, when they did a lot of these small mining business, punch mining I call it, they used a lot of ponies.
PN: Late, into the sixties and…
CF: Right, right. But they never used no ponies or mules in the Elver ton mine, no sir.
PN: You said that there, there was a movie house there in Elverton?
CF: Right.
PN: Did people come from outside of Elver ton to see the movies?
CF: Right, yea right. They come from Brown, walk up the railroad track about three mile. Of course at that time, youngsters didn't care, you see. They t d come from Browns; that's in below, that was the Maryland—New River Company in below Elver ton on the rail—, in the gorge. Or they'd come from Sewell, up the river here next to Thurmond, maybe three or four mile. They would walk, youngsters you know, get your girlfriend, come to the movies. Walk down the railroad track, or up the railroad track.
PN: How often did they show movies during the week?
CF: Let's see, usually Saturday and Sunday, and maybe, maybe about Wednesday two or three times a week.
PN: That was already there when you moved there in 1928?
CF: That was there when I moved there. When I went there, they had the silent picture. But then, I wasn't there but a little while, and they put in talking movies. I remember when they done that.
PN: Did both black and white go to the theater? Or was that segregated?
CF: Yea, it was. segregated, yea. They could go, but they had, they had their little aisle; and we had ours. They was on one side of the building, and we, the white was on the other. That's the way it was at that time. Definitely.
PN: What did it cost to get in?
CF: Oh at that time, 25 cents; 15, 20, 25 cents, right. Scrip.
PN: You paid scrip to get in?
CF: The company operated it too, yea, yes sir, yes sir.
PN: In the church, what type of a church…?
CF: Well, more or less a community church, I mean anyone, I mean, you take the Holiness may have had their meetings on Monday night, on a Wednesday night or a Tuesday night. And the Baptist maybe have theirs on a Saturday night or a Sunday morning or Sunday night, right.
PN: Were there any permanent preachers there? Or did preachers come in from the outside?
CF: No, it was usually someone in the community that was…
PN: Would run the service?
CF: Any time you usually have that many employees, usually some one of them' s a preacher, you know, right.
PN: And that was true both of the Black church and the white church?
CF: Well, no, the Blacks had theirs too.
PN: Did they have a special preacher, or was…
CF: Right.
PN: He a coal miner?
CF: Yea, they had their, that's right, that's right. He was a coal miner too.
PN: He was?
CF: Right, someone that lived in the community.
PN: Was that a Baptist church, or was that a community church?
CF: I don 't know what, I don't know what the colored was. I’d say more or less community church anyone, yea, had to be, yes sir.
PN: Did many people grow gardens there at Elverton?
CF: Well, yes, I mean small gardens. Of course, you don't have too much room down here in the gorge, you know, to g row too much of a garden, maybe just a little bit around the house. Yea, yes, they'd plant a small garden, what space they had.
PN: And you said that some people kept hogs and animals?
CF: Few hogs, yea, and some maybe had a cow or two at that time in Elver ton to get milk for the children, yes sir, that's right. But that was the way of life back then, I mean, I don't know, for some reason, it seems to me like people were more satisfied back then than they are now. [laughs] Too much for em to do now. [laughs]
PN: When you were living there, did people, you know did you often leave town to, you know, visit another town?
CF: Oh yea, about every weekend everybody, well not everybody, but the trains come up, you know, we had a train come up this river, passenger train maybe every, either going east or west, every two hours, local train, he would stop. Then people, Thurmond that's where everybody would come to on the weekends Thurmond, yes sir.
PN: What was that like back when, you know, [when] you were living in Elverton?
CF: You mean to come to Thurmond?
PN: Yea, yea, what was Thurmond like at that time?
CF: Well, Thurmond at that time, of course they had a lot of restaurants and beer parlors. And we had a ball team; of course, we 'd have to come to Thurmond to play ball. And of course on Saturday nights, you know, they'd have dances and this and that.
PN: At Thurmond?
CP: Yea, right.
PN: Where, in one of the hotels?
CF: Well, or in one of the restaurants there or beer joints, yea, restaurants. Yea, that Thurmond was a lively place at one time. Did you ever see the picture of the old Dunglen Hotel?
PN: Yea, yea.
CF: I've got a lot of them out there; I mean it's on the campaign material, literature, you know, Dunglen.
PN : Did you ever go there to dances or…?
CF: No, no, no, now I never did, I never did see the Dunglen. I think it burnt down, I believe in '34, wasn't it, '33 or 34, yea. No, I never did see it, no sir.
PN: But the Lafayette Hotel was still there when you went there, wasn't it?
CF: Right, right.
PN: What was that like?
CF: Well, I don't remember too much about it either; see, I was just a youngster and didn't, of course, didn't pay that much attention to it at that time. In places that served beer, they were just allowed to serve beer, right? They couldn't serve mixed drinks?
CF: No, that's right. Beers only, that's right.
PN: Did many people make, make moonshine around at that time?
CF: Well yea, you could, you could find moonshine, yea, I’ve seen a still or two in operation. [laughs] Right here on Manns Creek. You know where you go up Manns Creek to Babcock Park, near Sewell?
PN: Yea.
CF: Right there in that holler, I 've seen a many a gallon — well not, a many a gallon — I 've seen a good bit of it made. But I didn't, I mean, a colored guy was making it.
PN: Really?
CF: Yea. But up and down Manns Creek there, they was, back in those years, there was a good bit of moonshine whiskey made.
PN: Was that true in general that they, that they were generally the ones, say around here, that made moonshine?
CF: Well, in those days, I thought it was. It was the colored, yea.
PN: Why was that, do you think? Do you have any explanation for that?
CF: No sir, I really don 't, unless it, they figured out that was a better way to make a living than mining coal. [laughs] Of course you could buy a pint of moonshine whiskey in them days for a dollar in scrip.
PN: Really?
CF: Oh yea. Or maybe 50 cent, yes sir, that's for sure.
PN: If you, if you, say paid a dollar in scrip to someone for, you know, for some moonshine, would that person then use the scrip to buy things at that particular company store? Or could he turn it in and get money for
CF: No, he would go, maybe buy sugar and corn and stuff, set himself up some little mash, you see. [laughs] Yea, he could spend, yea. He could go to the store, and buy what he wanted, maybe, well, anything he wanted with that scrip.
PN: So even If he didn't work for that particular coal company…
CF: Right, no, they'd take this metal scrip, see.
PN:You could go in?
CF: Right, regardless who had it, right.
PN: If you wanted to redeem that to get cash, could you do that?
CF: I never knowed of anyone doing that, but of course it says on there that it's redeemable, but I never known anyone to redeem it to get, redeem it to get cash.
PN: Cause they would discount it, wouldn't they, if they…?
CF: I believe they would, yea, yea, right. Well you take, a fellow by the name of Jim Martin in Oak Hill, used to run a pawnshop, he 'd buy all kind of scrip . But it was on a discount; he'd give you 75 cents for a dollar. So I imagine then at that time, some of the companies — New River Company especially they would redeem it, and maybe give him 90 cents on a dollar, you see…
PN: Yea, I see.
CF: Yea, that's exactly right. Oh, you used could buy all the scrip you wanted. I mean, for a discount like that, 75 cents for a dollar, yes sir. Some of those poor fellows, I don't guess they ever did draw a nickel in cash. They always cut It up in scrip. Well, you had no need for it down in there. [laughs] Only maybe a few cents to ride to ride a train to Thurmond, maybe cost you 15 cents, or 20, to ride a train.
PN: From Elverton?
CF: From Elverton to Thurmond, yea.
PN: Was Elveton on the other side of the river from Thurmond?
CF: No Elverton, on the other side of the river from Thurmond? No. Yea, yea, right, it's on the other side, right, mm.
PN: Did everybody that worked at the mine there at Elver ton live, live there in town? Or did anybody come in from another…
CF: Unless, unless there was a few of them that lived at Gatewood. That's on top of the mountain, and they'd have to walk in of a morning. Until maybe three or four years before the mine worked out, they take a little dozer and cut a road into the mine, maybe a mile and a half. And otherwise up until then, they had to walk in if they got in, or go on the train, ride her in on the train, right.
PN: But you said that there was a hoist?
CF: Right.
PN: That you could. Did you take that when you went from your house up to the mine?
CF: You'd have to go out to the mine; see the community's in, in, in, down in the gorge, maybe on the hillside. Then if you was going up to the mine, you'd have to walk out to the mine, and get on the hoist, call the man at the top — they had a fellow lived up at the top he'd pull you up the mountain on the hoist. Then if you was going on Gatewood then Mountain, you'd have to get off and walk around the mountain, and go on top of the mountain.
PN: What did the hoist look like?
CF: Just a little man—car. It was open, I mean, you just sit out in all kind of weather. If it was raining, you get soaking wet. Or snowing, you 'd freeze to death. Just a little car, made on four wheels, had a rope on it. With a big drum on top. They pull you up and down the hill. That's the way they pull all the miners up and down.
PN: How many people could fit in one of these cars?
CF: Probably ten, right, at that time.
PN: Was there more than one, or did they just…?
CF: Just the one.
PN: Run it back and forth?
CF: Right. Maybe take him ten minutes to go up and down. And they put the coal over the mountain in monitors. Of course this hoist track paralleled the monitor track, side by side.
PN: Did they run on the same motors, or were they…
CT: No, no.
PN: They were separate?
CF: Right.
PN: On a monitor, you couldn't ride on that, could you? That was a…
CF: Well yea, I rode on many and many a monitor I mean.
PN: You did?
CF: Many a time those monitors; but nowadays, they would put a man into jail for trying to do It. But then, you could ride anything, they didn't care. The law wasn't that strict.
PN: What did the monitor look like? Was that a big barrel or something?
CF: Just a big type barrel - had four wheels on it, mm.
PN; How would you ride that? On top of it, or inside?
CF: Well they had, they had a, you know, you'd ride on the side of it. They'd have a couple braces from one end to the other, and a board laying there botted to it, you see.
PN: So you could lie on that, or sit on that?
CF: Well, you'd stand up on it. See you had a bar, yea. Of course, you'd have to ride it right on in the tipple. When he got in the bottom tipple, he'd turn this up like that, and dump his coal out. He had a gate on the front end, you see. And while he was loading at the top, you'd get off. But your monitor's not run by motors. Your load pulls your empty; there's no, no motors whatsoever.
PN: No?
CF: No, load pulls your empty. Your load at the top, that load will pull your…
PN: Oh, it's a system of pulleys or something?
CF: Double monitor, see. While your empty's in the bin, while you're dumping, he's loading the other one at the top. So when he gets it loaded, why then that load will pull the other empty back up. No power used whatsoever.
PN: But there was power used in the hoist, right? For those engines?
CF: Rights right, right, motor, that's right, yes sir. I don't know whether there's any monitor in this country right now, unless there's still some over at Stickney over in Wyo—, over in Boone County. There was just, oh, a few years ago, but now whether it's still there I don 't know.
PN: You mentioned a baseball team a while ago.
CF: Yea we had a, yea, we used to have a pretty good baseball, of course, all, all coal companies at that time had baseball teams. If you was a good ballplayer, you'd get a job anywhere. I mean these superintendents, these mines would hire you if you was a good ballplayer. Because that was about the only sport that people had to watch and, and the coal companies would them sponsor ball clubs, and buy uniforms and everything. So about all of them did have ball clubs and they'd come to Thurmond, or play their neighbors up the track or down the track.
PN: Did all the towns along the gorge have baseball teams in the thirties when you were…
CF: Right, yea.
PN: Did they play in a league at any time?
CF: Well no, no, no, it wasn't no league. I mean, you may be available this Sunday, and you call your neighbor up the road, up the railroad track there three or four mile, and ask them if they got a game for Sunday. They say, "No." "Well, we come up or you come down." That's the way they did it.
PN: I guess that was an important social event for the whole community?
CF: Right, yea. Everybody, everybody backed their baseball teams, now. [laughs] That's where they had a lot of fun on Sundays' afternoon, watching those ball teams, and drinking beer and moonshine. [laughs]
PN: What was the legal system in these towns? Did they have constables or sheriffs of any kind living there?
CF: Well at one time, now we had a Conservation Officer that was there for a while. [Interruption of taping, as a neighbor visited Mr. Forren.]
PN: You were talking a minute ago about the law, and the Conservation Officer. Maybe you could describe just what the system of law, you know, was in Elverton.
CF: Well, about the only time that there was either, I mean, ever a law down in there is when something happened was a [which] the company didn't go along with, you know. And they'd call the deputy sheriffs out of
Fayetteville.
PN: They would?
CF: Yea. They had to come in on a train, or come to the top of the mountain and walk down. Of course, I don't remember no murder that, I was only there from 1928 till 45. And I know there was a lot of accidents and a Jot of people killed on Saturday nights down there by drowning or a train getting them or something maybe on the track drinking or drunk. But as far as just actually murder or robbery, there wasn't too much of that went on at that town. Wasn't, didn't nobody have anything to rob em for. [laughs] But, well they had a lot of fights and things ' you know. Boys, and get on Saturday night, and do a lot of gambling and so forth, but as far as too much murder, there wasn't.
PN: Did they ever use the deputies during strikes? Or not?
CF: No, not, no, no, no. No. not this last time since they was organized in 33. No, you mean the company to, men wanted to work to go ahead to cross picket lines and so forth?
PN: Yea.
CF: No, no, no sir.
PN: Do you have any memory of the Baldwin—Felts?
CF: No, I 've read a lot about them, but no, don't remember them — before my time.
PN: It was?
CF: Yes, it was.
PN: When you were living in Elverton, say in the late twenties and thirties, and when you started working in the mine, what percentage would you say of the miners there were Black, and what was white?
CF: I’d say there was about 60—40; there was a lot of colored there.
PN: It was mostly white?
CF: Yea, yea, the majority, the majority was white. I'd say about 60—40.
PN: But there was a big…
CF: Right.
PN: There was a big minority of, of the Black miners there?
CF: Well, about 60% white and 40% colored.
PN: Was there any difference in the type of work they did in the mine?
CF: No, they usually done about the same thing the white people would - mean run motors, lay track, or cut coal, load coal, right.
PN: Were there many immigrants from Europe living there?
CF: Not too many. There was a few Mexicans or, very few, but wasn't too many at Elver ton at that time. Now there was a lot up at Layland, different .
PN: Mexicans at Lay land?
CF: Right. Spaniards, there were a lot of Spaniards at Layland.
PN: Where did the Mexicans come from? Did they come directly from Mexico to work in the mines here?
CF: I would say, yes, mm. Course we had a few Russians at Layland, I mean three or four I know, that worked in the mines.
PN: Did the Mexicans, did they move out after a while? Or how long did they stay here?
CF: Well, undoubtedly, they just died out, and the youngsters didn't take up the trade, that's right.
PN: When you began working in 1936, what were you paid a day and how many hours did you have to work?
CF: Worked eight hours a day at $3.50 a day, picking slate. Although they said it was a eight—hour day. Course the union was in, and of course the union was just organized in 33. But although, you had more or less, I mean you didn't take a real strong hold until maybe in the forties. Why before the union come in, see, everybody was scared of the superintendent or the mine foreman. I mean you did exactly what they said, and it was a long time before it rubbed off too much, see, that you felt like you had a little protection yourself. So I would say it was in the, sometime in the forties before you really got any freedom from the mine management.
PN: When did you get portal—to—portal?
CF: No, there was no such thing as portal—to—portal then. That was, that come along, maybe about ‘48. [It was actually 1943.]
PN: It was that late?
CF: Yea, right. But 1 could remember there at Elverton, even after the union come in, why the miners stayed in the mines from daylight to dark.
PN: How many shifts did they have? Just that one shift?
CF: No they had two shifts.
PN: A night shift, and a day?
CF: Right, that's right. Then they cut coal, the machine crew cut coal on the third shift. Actually had…
PN: There were three?
CF: Two production shifts, and one repair shift, you know, and so forth, getting ready for the next one.
PN: That's when you started working, right?
CF: No, I started at the bottom tipple in 1936.
PN: But they had three shifts, when you began working in 1936? They had three shifts working then?
CF: Well, two production shifts, only two production shifts, that is producing coal. Then the other one was a maintenance shift, that is, for the machinery to cut the coal getting ready for the next shift coming on, the day shift. And maybe bailing water, taking in the sand not too many men, maybe a half dozen men.
PN: Is that all?
CF: Right.
PN: When did the different shifts work? Like when you went to work, when did you begin and when did you end?
CF: 7 to 3, 3 to 11, 11 to 7.
PN: So the 11 to 7 was the half dozen men that would do maintenance work?
CF: Right, right, machine men and so forth. Or someone dumping slate, and this and that.
PN: What kind of hats did you, or what kind of lamps did you use then?
CF: Well, when 1 started in 1933, they had the battery light. I mean, when the organized in 1933. I taken care, that was one of my first jobs after 1 went from the bottom tipple on slate, picking slate, up to the top tipple, I'd say in 1938. But in 1933 to about 1938, they had the cloth hat and the carbide lamp. So we probably got the battery lamp sometime in the, about '38, '38.
PN: The battery one?
CF: Right.
PN: Did the, did they have a different type of a hat then too? It was a hard, it was a harder hat?
CF: No, no, at that time, you could use your cloth hat or the hard—shell hat had just begin to come in existence along about that time too.
PN: The hard—shell hats were better, right? Did they protect you more?
CF: Well when the, well when the first, when the hard hats first came out, well the miners was 100% against them.
PN: They were?
CF: Oh they complained, and did this and everything else, hurt their head. No, they didn't want em. Same way with shoe. Used to be you could wear any old thing. They didn’t care; toed the coal, coal, coal operators didn't, or management didn't. But when they brought those shoes out, you know, the miners complained about those hard toes when they'd, stooping down you know, bending down, loading coal. Them things was "cutting their toes off" and this and that. That hard hat, they all of them complained about the headache all the time. But they don’t do that no more. I mean, sometime, you know, when you 're trying to force a fellow to do something, why, against his will, you got a lot of complaints. [laughs] But now, I think they're wonderful — the hard—toed shoe and the hat. Back in those days, buddy, why they didn't know nothing but the old soft—toed shoe and the old cloth hat. So heck.
PN: You know, what did you do, did you work on the outside tipple at Elverton between 38 and '45?
CF: No, no, I started now in 1936, picking slate.
PN: That was at the bottom?
CF: I worked there possibly two years at the bottom tipple, then I moved to the top tipple dumping mine cars into the chute, dumping coal cars, loaded with coal. Then I may have worked there maybe until about 1937. Then I went inside.
PN: What did you do there?
CF: Braking on the mainline motor, mm. But I loaded coal some at Elver ton too, during that time. See I only worked there nine years, now, from '36 to '45, and I left. But I did a little bit of everything while I was there, such as helping on the track, dumping coal, picking slate, and used to go in the night and help my brother on the pumps, and braking on the mainline, loading coal, a little bit of everything. I mean, a person in them days didn't have no regular job; you just done what the boss told you to do.
PN: There was really no job classification?
CF: No, no, no. Well I mean, of course you may be hired as a motorman, why usually when you was a motorman on section, you kept that job. If you was a coal loader, you kept that job. But a fellow on general labor, they just switch him around anywhere they wanted to, which was all right. If you was a youngster like I was at that time, that'd give you an opportunity to learn several jobs, right. And I operated the monitors; I run, ran the monitors. And operated the hoist we was talking about a few minutes ago, many and many a time dropped them up and down the hill, the miners.
PN: On the hoist?
CF: Yea, right. And I run the hoist of the Layland shaft for about 11 years.
PN: If you, you know, if you had to compare the, what life in the town was like before 1933 when the union came in, and after 1933, what would you say were the major differences of the, that the union brought?
CF: Well about the, about the only thing I could say was really different was that before 1933, why, like I said a few minutes ago, the coal companies had the upper hand on a man. I mean, you was, well, I would say was darn near slaves you worked there, you done exactly what they told you to. And if you didn't, why they was through with you — get on out of the mines. Or get on off the job too, as far as that [was] concerned, and they could set you off the job [meaning job site]. But after the union came in, they'd give a fellow more protection. And the companies realized that, and they were, they weren't near as strict, although they tried to be. And they did continue a little while, cause when the union first organized, it was a little weak to start with until men realized what they had. But…
PN: Did the people feel more…
CF: Right today if it wasn't for the union, the coal miner, it'd be, it would be rough, yes sir. These coal operators don't love nobody. I mean you might take a foreman on the job or something that might like you pretty good or something, but as far as owners, why they don't care nothing, no more about John than they do Jack. No sir. so I union's done a wonderful thing, although we haven’t, I'm, I’m not going to say the union, I’m going to say we - I've been a 1933 but we made a lot of mistakes that shouldn't have happened. A lot of the wildcat strikes shouldn't have been permitted. You take here three or four years ago, five years ago, that we would let the majority, I mean the minority rule the majority. That's what happened, I’m mean if you and I go to school up here, why all you'd have to do is just go up a holler here and stop a coal mine. Well, well that's not right. I mean, heck no. We did do it, and they had trouble in Kanawha County, you know. They had a few pickets up there wasn't even coal miners.
PN: That book boycott up there?
CF: Right. Some guy come up there and just, you know, "What's the matter, buddy?” “Well, they're doing us wrong down in Kanawha County.” Throw the water out. That, that's wrong! Now that's wrong. We did wrong there. And I'm not so sure that that's not part of our ills today. Because you take our foreign business, foreign coal business, why, when they couldn't get coal due to, due to the reason of us striking and so forth over nothing, why then they could buy the coal somewhere else. Course it's picking up some now; I think the coal business is coming back. But now it's been pretty rough here, especially in the southern part of West Virginia the last five or six years. Well three or four years at my mine. We, we've got a lot of men cut off now.
PN: I just want to ask you another question about when the union first came in. Did people feel more free to, you know, speak what was on their mind?
CF: Oh definitely, right, yea, sure. Immediately after, yes sir, now we, was immediately after we organized — or they organized, of course that [was] three years before I began, but I could remember it well — why, the local union got their charter and they'd have a meeting maybe oncet or twicet a month, and elected their officers and their committeemens. And if they had some grievance or some gripes, why the committeemen contacted management, and tried to take care of it. Although like I said a few minutes ago, they was a little contrary to start with, because they didn't want to recognize the union. But they finally come around.
PN: Was there a difference in the standard of living that the families had after the union came in?
CF: I don't think there's too much difference in them days on up until later years, because that didn't have too much effect on the wages. 1 think maybe I was a 'making $3.50 a day when I started. That was in 1936. Of course, we didn't make anything right on up until, to amount to anything until maybe some time in the late forties. But, no that didn't, well it did in a way too. But I know that maybe in '40, '41, '42, a lot of 'em begin to get automobiles, although they couldn't bring the automobiles in the camp. Just leave them on the mountain. But a lot of them, yea, I believe they begin to live a little better than what they did.
PN: When you first moved there in 28 and in that period, what did the town look like? Or what did the houses look like?
CF: Well, the company pretty well kept the houses up. They kept a carpenter they or two that, I mean, of course it was all, had fireplaces in them, I mean grates. There wasn't no electric heat or oil heat or nothing like that. They had old grates in em. But if you broke a step or had trouble with something, the company's just notify the superintendent. He'd send a carpenter to fix it. But there wasn't no baths in none of them. Maybe a few — the superintendent and the mine foreman and the chief electrician; they 're the only ones had baths.
PN: Really?
CF: Yea, right. The rest of them had an old building on the outside.
PN: Did you have to boil water to get it hot, if you wanted hot water?
CF: Right, right, definitely, on the old coal cook stove. Yes sir, yes sir, unless you got to move down in one of the houses — maybe they had a dozen there, I 'd say they only had about a dozen houses there that had baths and water heaters in them.
PN: Out of how many total houses?
CF: Maybe 60, 70, mm.
PN: And the ones when the miners lived there?
CF: Mm. You heated your water; you had a bath in an old galvanized tub of the evening when you come in from work. Your wife would have the, you know, the old water boiling on the stove. She'd pour it in the tub for you, and get some water to cool it down. And you'd get down on your knees, and wash part of yourself. And then after a while, you'd dry that, and get over here and wash the rest of it. And got on the porch and throwed it over the porch — the water. That's the way of life, I mean, that's all
you really knowed. That was it.
PN: Were the houses in Elver ton painted back then usually?
CF: Well they kept the houses in pretty good shape, right. They kept them painted.
PN: What colors would they be painted?
CF: White and black, white and black. Painted white and trimmed in black. It would be white trim?
CF: No, painted white and trimmed in black.
PN: The trim would be black yea.
CF: Yea they, they didn't do bad.
PN: Did people have radios back then?
CF: Yea, yea, I remember people had radios, some of them that can afford them; a lot of them didn't, right. There were some radios there.
PN: Did you have a radio?
CF: Yea, yea, we had a radio. Course, I came out of a large family. And they all were coal miners; they all worked there at Elverton. And I guess at one time, there was four or five of us stayed at home and worked in the mines.
PN: Really?
CF: Stayed with our mother.
PN: And your Dad?
CF: With our mother; our father was dead. Our father died in 1936. He died before I went to the mines. Of course there was about four or five brothers before me that worked in the mines, and there was two or three younger than me that worked in the mines. I think there was seven of us brothers. And I believe, I'm pretty positive all of us at one time worked at Elverton.
PN: Wow.
CF: I think we all, well now except Robert, the oldest one, the one you talked to [See Tape Eight]. I believe he begin his mining career at Lookout; I know he did.
PN: Yea, he said that.
CF: Yea, and the rest of us, I think, started at Elverton.
PN: So your mother kept the house at Elver ton, and you were all working there.
CF: Right, right, right. When our father died, then the superintendent let one of us pay the rent. And so our mother could stay there, right.
PN: Did she live there for many years?
CF: She lived from 193—, or 1928 until 19—, she moved out of there in
1952.
PN: Oh, she lived there till
CF: Right.
PN: At Elverton?
CF: Right, sure did.
PN: Where did she move to then?
CF: Rupert.
PN: Rupert?
CF: Up in Greenbrier County.
PN: Is she still alive today?
CF: No, she lived, she died in '76 at the age of 88. But she lived at Rupert for several years, and then she moved to Fayetteville. And she lived in Fayetteville until she died. But out of seven of us brothers, I'm the only one left that's still coal mining.
PN: Oh, all the others are retired?
CF: Well, I had a younger brother that died suddenly the 25th day of August that worked at Quinwood. And I have one brother, he's been in the service for years and years. And the rest of them's retired, mm. Of course, I'm old enough to retire. I could have retired two or three years ago, but just haven't.
PN: Do you prefer staying active?
CF: Probably work for a while yet, mm, yep.
PN: Have about two minutes there left. Is there, is there anything you think is important to add?
CF: No. Course I've enjoyed coal mining all my life. Course that's all I known, but I've seen a lot happening in and around the mines. But today, I think it's, it's a nice, it'd be a nice future for a you—, I have a son that lives next door. He's 28 years old; he's began his mining career at Lay land. Of course, he's cut off now. He was cut, he's cut off at Layland, but he works at Beckley Coal Mining Company. He's been over there now since he was cut off up here. But he likes mining; yes sir, he likes it. He's only 28 years old; of course, he was foreman at Lay land. He ma—, he was section foreman while he was up there. But he's miner helper now at Beckley Coal Mining.
PN: Where is their mine that he works at?
CF: Down in, you go over here like you 're going to Bolt, turn right and go down in there. Over next to the Beckley, Maple Meadow.
PN: Oh yea, yea, yea. Down beyond Eccles, down there.
CF: Right, right, but you go out there and turn right at a, somewhere. I’ve been down in there before, mm. But coal mining's not bad.
[End of Tape]
Description
Coal mining, Elverton, Clifftop
Date Created
11/01/1980
Copyright and Usage Info