Audio
Dora Devol Brett
Transcript
Haller: My name is Steven Haller and I’m the Historian for Golden Gate National Recreation Area. It is March 9th, 1992, at 2pm and I am here at building 102 at the Presidio of San Francisco with Mrs. Dora DeVol Brett who lived at Crissy Field from 1921 to 1924. I want to thank you for making the effort to be with us here today, Dora.
Dora: Its My pleasure
Haller: Now, we are making this tape for the National Park Service and plan on using it for research and for education about the history of the presidio and I understand that the National Park Service has your permission to make the tape and to retain all the literary and property rights to this interview for the purposes I just mentioned. Is that Correct?
Dora: Yes.
Haller: Thank You.
Haller: "I'd like to ask you about your family background. In particular because I know that you're from a family that has a long and distinguished career of military service. So, could you describe your family a little bit for us?
Dora: "Well, I was born in Washington, D.C. to George Howard Brett and Mary Devol Brett in December 28, 1916 and I lived all of my life until I was married, in the service. Army Air Corps. My father was in the Army Air Corps. And I'm here because of my affiliation. My dad was stationed at Crissy Field and from 1921 to 1924 and I was a child of sixish, five, six to whatever - eight and remember some of those days and I thought [it] would be of interest to your project here.
Haller: "Well it certainly is, as I might go on to say that your father was not only stationed here but he was the first commander of the post. Now, your family background contains some other San Francisco associations, doesn't it.?"
Dora: "Yes. it does."
Haller: "Could you tell us a 1ittle bit about your grandfather?"
Dora: "In World War I when my father was overseas in Paris, and I was approximately one to two years old along in there. maybe two, two and a half, I'd kind of forgotten, my grandfather who retired as General Caroll A. Devol, Major General from the Army Quartermaster Corps and my grandmother Dora Scott Devol were stationed at Fort Mason. So, my mother and I came out and stayed with them (for whatever time it was, I don't know of course for sure, and I have no way of checking) at Fort Mason. So, my grandfather as a quartermaster in the Quartermaster Corps had been involved in Fort Mason off and on for years. From 1906 at the earthquake of which I know, and then in latter years of which we have, we found out about. So of course, my interest is also there."
Haller: "So for a short period of time you actually lived somewhere on Fort Mason. 11
Dora: '' In the quarters that grandfather and grandmother had at the time. We stayed with them, my mother and I."
Haller: "And this was when George Brett, your father, went overseas? Is that correct?"
Dora: "Yes, to Paris, during World [War I]."
Haller: "Do you remember much about your grandfather?"
Dora: "Oh, I remember him very well because grandmother and grandfather settled in Menlo Park on the corner of Santa Cruz and Lemon and when Dad was stationed here at Crissy, why I would go down to visit them quite often. I was the oldest grandchild. I now then had a sister when we were here at Crissy and then my brother Devol Brett was born in Letterman General Hospital here at the Presidio. So, I remember going back and forth in his touring car, down to Menlo. They would come up and get me to have me for a visit, which I'm sure pleased my mother and father very much to get rid of me for a while. And what I remember about Crissy was that we had the Arnold children lived here then and the Greene, Carl Greene’s children and other fiends and we lived up on the officers’ row and we had a very' very fun Life, just enjoying the fresh air and the surroundings and everything else. But the most exciting part was when my father always was interested in getting people interested in airplanes, which were very new in those days. He started his training at the Coronado in the Signal Corps and my mother and father were married March the first, 1916 and he was stationed there at that time, taking his flight training. And then, of course when he ended up at Crissy, why he was very interested and was allowed to take the members of the officers’ families or the enlisted men -I mean families or any of the children--up in airplanes if they wanted to go. So, as we can tell from the newspaper clipping that I found, we all took advantage of it that wanted to do it and I had my first ride on my grandmother's lap. I think it must have been in about, I forget the date on that newspaper clipping.
Haller: "I don't recall for sure, but we can check in the collection that you're to donate."
Dora: "Yeah and over San Francisco Bay in a D.H. [De Havilland]"
Haller: "Can you describe that? Can you remember it well enough to describe the feelings."
Dora: "Well I have to confess to you now, which I have not done before. I am sorry to say, I threw up all over her. But she loved me dearly anyway and took it in stride. That was my first and last time of doing that, though, in an airplane. And then Dad took me up after then, several times. And he was always interested in my interest in flying and would always give me any opportunity to go up in an airplane from then on as long as he was able to in the Air Corps."
Haller: "You said you flew the first time in your grandmother's lap so assumedly you were in the rear seat or the observer's seat because it must have been a skilled pilot flying."
Dora: "Oh. yes."
Haller: "When you flew with your father, did you sit in the observer's seat all by yourself then?"
Dora: '' I was usually with somebody because I was small. It would probably be on somebody's lap or with somebody. Because I was too small to sit on the seat and see anything. And those were open cockpits as you know. So, I was usually on somebody's lap. And I don't recall exactly what, but I know I went up more than once because my dad told me that I would go up whenever he'd let me go."
Haller: "Well these were sort of early and adventuresome days for aviation. I know that people at large at that time were agog at the wonders of aviation."
Dora: "Very."
Haller: "Being a child who'd been up in a plane must have put you in some pretty good social standing with your peers."
Dora: [laughs! "Well, I was one of the few children who enjoyed it as much as I did. But my father was a remarkable man because, when he loved something, he wanted his children to learn anything and everything that they could about all sports. We were shown, given an opportunity to anything in the sports world throughout our lives that he could give us. And also, he loved to fly and he loved to ride horses so those were the two things he offered to us. And I was being the oldest actually took more advantage of it than my sister. My sister didn't care that much about it. And my brother was six years younger than I so he was down the chain a bit by the time he came along. But he, and he was sickly for quite a few years. So [ was the one and [ was bolder and enjoyed it and I adored my father and I'd follow him ai1ywhere. But he had such enthusiasm, and he would make everything so wonderful that you couldn't help but want to do it."
Haller: “Did you get down to the flight line, to the airfield, to the business end of the operation very often, or only on these very special occasions?"
Dora: "No, we were only allowed down on that part of Crissy Field with our parents or with someone comparable. In other words, if another father wanted to take two children, why maybe I’d go along. But we were always; we were never allowed down there without because it was too--that was business, and we weren't allowed there. "
Haller: "No, that makes good sense." Dora: "Yes."
Haller: " You Mentioned some of the other children that you associated with. These are all families that made something of a mark in Air Corps and Aviation history. We remarked before, over lunch I think, just how small the early Air Corps was and how that gave everyone a chance to be special there.”
Dora: "And you never went to a Air Corps post, which was an army post of course, without knowing somebody in those days because it was so small. And then you knew people from the other parts of the service too. But when we were here at Crissy of course
General Arnold was here as a major also. And as you told me, he had a different position with... Hap Arnold. But his children were good friends and that's where I first knew them and Bruce [Arnold] in latter years, he worked for my husband, General Bernard A. Shriever, who had the missile, beginning of the missile business. In 54, from 54 on, we moved to Santa Monica and Bruce worked for General Shriever there in that command for many years."
Haller: "And this is Bruce Arnold."
Dora: "Bruce Arnold. And he was my very good friend. He was wonderful. He died about a couple of years ago. And I knew the oldest son, Hank Well, I knew all of the children and then, of course, I knew the family well because when I was married to my husband, why, my family were stationed in Panama at the time, my mother and father. So, I was married in General Arnold's house in Washington, D.C. He gave me away. Because my husband, Benny, as I will call him now, was up with Northwest Airlines. He was out of the service for a year. It was reserve and we were married the beginning of '38, and he was trying to get back in the Air Corps, which he loved. And we were married, so he couldn't come to Panama for a wedding, so I came up and we were married in General Arnold's house in the beginning of '38. In other words, we continued the friendship throughout the years. And Carl Green was also stationed here. And his three children, Sally, Peggy, and Bill. I still am seeing Sally and Peggy. Bill, unfortunately, lost his life in Korea. He was in the Air Corps. And both Sally and Sally was married to Air Force. But Peggy married a field artillery man. But we were a close-knit group and I guess. Those were the three that I kept the most touch with throughout the years, those two families."
Haller: "You remind me of the story you told me the last time we met when we were looking over your photograph album and there were the children playing on the stoops of the officers' homes along Lincoln Boulevard. You showed me all the three or four Arnold children and they were all dressed identically. Do you remember that?"
Dora: "Yes. in sort of sailor suits."
Haller: "Sailor suits."
Dora: "Yes, uh huh."
Haller: "Didn't you say that that was a trademark; that Mrs. Arnold liked to dress her children that way?''
Dora: I don't remember that as well, but I remember that the Arnolds, either he or she had an outside income, which, in the service, if anyone had an outside income, was always very apparent. And l wore Lois Arnold's hand-me-down clothes for years 'til I was about thirteen years old. I had no feel about it. All I cared about is if the dress had pants to match the dress, cause in those days we wore bloomers over our underpants to match the dresses because then I could climb trees and do anything I wanted to, and my mother wouldn't fuss at me. And that's the truth. And so, but Mrs. Arnold very kindly sent her [clothes] because. she was just enough older than I. She was two or three years older than I was. And so, they were very gratefully received because we had very little money in those days. We had very little furniture in the house. But it didn't bother us. It was no problem. We never worried about it. We were very happy, and our fathers had plenty of time in those days and our mothers to pay attention to us."
Haller: "What do you think was special about childhood on that military post?"
Dora: "I guess, well not ever having lived off, I don't know. And I had, of course I visited my grandmother and grandfather at Menlo [Park] and they had a lot of property there and I had the freedom to run around there. I had the freedom. And now that I'm into children, and grandchildren particularly, that are young, why, that freedom, I now realize was wonderful. We had our restrictions, I say, we had to stay within the boundary of the quarters up there and we weren't allowed to just go back in the... out in the... where it wasn't... just helter skelter, but then we didn't want to. We didn't particularly need to. And remember we were only, what, probably from nine on down to toddlers. I think the oldest was Lois Arnold and she was, if I was six, she was three years older than I so she would be nine. you see. So, we were in the ages where staying home was more or less... and of course when... I don't think I went to school when I was here. I was below school age."
Haller: "I was about to ask."
Dora: '"Cause my first recollection of school was at Wright-Patterson where we went to from here."
Haller: "How about."
Dora: "I don't remember school here."
Haller: "How about playing with the other children. I imagine it was mostly officers then who were family men at that time? Is that correct?"
Dora: "Yes. You must remember that in those days the sergeants could get married, but your enlisted man could not. Very seldom. And there was a reason for that. And I think, frankly, that they should go back to it now. Because when they were young and coming up in their enlisted ranks and then when they got to be a sergeant, they then finally had the money to support a family and usually had quarters on the base, too. But before that they lived in barracks and there was no money. They did not make enough money to support a family. And it says to itself because today our enlisted men are on food stamps because they can't afford to support a family. They still can't. And yet they won't crack down on them and not allow them to be married until they grow up. Because your enlisted man is usually very young. I don't know if you want that in this or not."
Haller: "No, no, actually I'm interested in... "
Dora: "That's why you have your barracks here that have so many men in it, you see. They lived in the barracks, and they were well treated. And they didn't feel the pinch. Because they were in there. I'm sure that there wasn't one that was over twenty-eight, twenty-nine, thirtyish. And also, men in those days were very interested in what they were doing, and they also knew that if they wanted to get to have a family that they assumed the responsibilities of a family. And then when they got to be sergeants and then my father would usually talk to them and make sure that they were not in debt. And he did the same thing with first lieutenants. First lieutenants were not allowed to be married without, or second lieutenants, without the permission of the commanding officers. And the reason for that was to make sure that the man had enough money, was not in debt, and had, if he was a pilot, he had to have enough life insurance. And my father required ten thousand dollars, which in the twenties, cause you see that was where everyone had money, but the military were poor because food was so expensive and everything was expensive. Not that it was a hardship to us. It was not. But he demanded that any... and that demand was in even when Curtis LeMay came to him in Selfridge Field and wanted permission to be married. And even though he was marrying a woman with money, which he did, he had to show that he had ten thousand dollars life insurance for his widow, for his wife, so if she became a widow at least she would have something. Because no one should have had to assume that responsibility, that was his responsibility."
Haller: "Well you touch upon an interesting subject which is, I guess, the responsibility that a good officer would feel towards his subordinates, officers, and enlisted personnel. And it sounds like your father took a pretty active role in that regard."
Dora: "He always took Well, remember I showed you the picture and told you about when I was at Fort Ethan Allen and in the cavalry and he got that group of his... what do call it in the Army, in the cavalry when you have a... troop!... his troop. And he took his troop and he worked with them for days and days and weeks and weeks and got them so that when they went into Madison Square Garden, they were the tops. And was a great, great compliment to him in those days. And that showed his leadership of men and his caring of men, that be could work with men. And he worked with enlisted men. I mean his troop was enlisted men. But to get them up to speed-so they would take pride in belonging to a troop that did... came in and gave demonstrations of riding... like to music and going into twos and threes and performing in a sort of a pattern that people would enjoy marching in a wonderful manner, getting all the horses to move at the right time. That takes great skill and a lot of hard work, cause he had me doing it at Fort Leavenworth for years and I was a very good rider. And we had a Girl Scout troop and I got to be. The front person because he would work with me every afternoon, day in and day out after school, and help me. And that's what he had all the way which he gave to his children as well as to the men. And he also was a man who was always concerned with morale. Well morale at Crissy would be his... is where he cared and where he would take care of anything he could that would make life better. And yet he required responsibility from his men to their job, to their life and to their fellow man."
Haller: "Just parenthetically, I wanted to clarify that when you were talking about staging the exhibitions of riding skill, this would be the cavalry troop from the Second Cavalry which came down... "
Dora: "Fort Ethan Allen."
Haller: “. in Vermont to Madison Square Garden. Correct?"
Dora: "and performed."
Haller: "Yeah, very interesting."
Dora: "And I don't know if they were in competition or not. I can't understand. But I know that he was tops in it, that his troop won the best at Fort Ethan Allen in competition with the other troops that were their cause there were quite a few there. And, as I say, but he never had any compunction to work and work and work and go over and over and he had the patience, and he was a wonderful teacher as well as a leader.
Haller: "What got him out of the cavalry and into flying. Do you have any insight as to why he got interested in flying?"
Dora: "Well. he heard and read about it. And at the time he met my mother at Fort Ethan Allen and decided at the age of thirty that that's the woman he wanted to marry. And she was about twenty-two at the time. I guess he was twenty-nine. He always said a man shouldn't get married until he's thirty, but he only did that because that's when he got married. But anyway, and so he found out about it and looked into it and he was just intrigued. So he talked it over with my mother and said he would like to do it and she encouraged him, so he went and started his training and then after he'd been in training for, I can't remember the exact time, how long it took, why they were married while he was still in training there, but she backed him all the way and she took an interest in it. And she would go up with him when it was allowed, too. She never had any fear of it. She was not as. she was a quiet, gentle person so she didn't tackle it like I did because, I always wanted to learn to fly but I never had the money for it. And unfortunately, when World War II came along, I was married and had two children. My husband went off to war and didn't do badly in the war at all. And if I hadn't been married, I could have had lessons and flown during World War II with the women. And I would have."
Haller: "Sounds like you would have been great."
Dora: "I would have enjoyed it. 1 really did. But it's something. My brother was a fighter pilot. my dad was a fighter pilot and you either. you have that sort of wanting to be. I don't know what it is. It was like riding a horse. It was so exciting when I'd get in that ring and face those jumps. But I never had a really good horse. They were usually the government horses at Fort Leavenworth. But it was a challenge to see how well I could make them perform. And with my father's help, cause he worked with me, so I could.
Haller: "You mentioned riding, I think, in Menlo Park, but you were probably too young to have done anything at the Presidio? Did you ride at the Presidio?"
Dora: "No. no, no. I never rode here, nor there. No, it was always on a Army post where they had field artillery and cavalry horses. And even some air... now at Langley Field when we were there. In·'28 they had horses for some unknown reason, which I can't remember. But I know that daddy started me riding. That's where he started me riding was at Langley. And then we went to Fort Leavenworth. And Leavenworth was a huge Army post and they had classes every Saturday and Sunday for the children. The girls in ·one riding ring and at the other end of the post, cause it was huge, it's a huge, huge old Army post, why the boys had it. And the boys never did as well as the girls for some unknown reason, in the horses. They just didn't have whatever it was. They didn't have the interest is what I meant. Not that they couldn't be good riders. But and then I was only ten when we went to Fort Leavenworth. I forget. The time goes by. Yeah, yeah, I was about eleven. And I really took to it. But besides the lessons, my father would work with me, too, after. 'Cause he was a student and he had. after school he had time off, you see."
Haller: "While you were at the Presidio near Crissy Field, were there other sort of spectacular events or particular memories that you can share with us?"
Dora: "Well. when anybody of rank came to town, and I can remember when General [Mason M.] Patrick came, and, oh, golly, that was very, very important. And we would be... we could come. they would bring us down to the flight line or we would come if you wanted to. And I would get in on anything. And it was always fun to see them. And then, what was the other one? 'Cause I horrified my father because I asked him about his teeth. And unfortunately, he had false teeth. And I said to him "Do you take your take your teeth out like father does in the morning?" and I was always doing something embarrassing."
Haller: "To a senior officer during an inspection?"
Dora: "He was either the assistant chief or whatever. I could get myself into more trouble. But when General Patrick came and then when Lowell Smith came through and the flight around the world and that was the most exciting thing."
Haller: "You said that you saw ... "
Dora: "[Lt. Lester J.] Maitland was one of them. Maitland was one of that group."
Haller: "That’s right. Maitland... "
Dora: "And they, he and my dad and l saw more of them socially 'cause the Maitland’s were good friends of my family."
Haller: "So, did you recall the events of the Around-the-World-Flight?"
Dora: "No. I just remember they came, and I got to meet them and ... down on the flight line and it was so exciting. And everybody was there and welcoming them and everything."
Haller: "'Yes. apparently, there was quite a crowd."
Dora: "Oh. yeah. Oh, it was just...well, imagine, flying around the world? In those airplanes?"
Haller: "It was the first time it had been successfully done."
Dora: "Yeah. It's incredible. It was just like I was at the... at the Air Space Museum over Christmas and I looked at the Spirit of St. Louis again. And knowing Charles Lindbergh personally, it means even more to me. And I was showing a couple of my grandchildren. I said "Look at that plane and just think. He flew and he couldn't even see out of it. The whole thing was just mind boggling and exciting."
Haller: "Well I just think the images that I see and the vision that I have of these men, people, getting up in these open bi-planes and just expanding rapidly the capabilities of aviation during those years."
Dora: "Imagine, just going around the world in those and being up there and looking at all the strange country or else going over the ocean. To me going over the ocean because as we know, go down in the ocean and you can never be found. Ever. Like Amelia Earhart. Whatever happened to her? But even so, it's worth taking a chance. And they were full of that, and they wanted to do it so it was wonderful. Just think how early on that was to do that."
Haller: "Sure well, it was less than twenty years from the time of the first flight."
Dora: "I know, I know, it's incredible. And the planes in those days were so flimsy. And they didn't know all the air dynamics that they know now or knew several years thereafter. Einstein's theory or no, Johnny von Karman, no, von Karman, Dr. von Karman who did the.... whatever airlift and everything or air flow or something
Haller: Do you have any sort of personal memories of things that happened while you were in the Presidio.
Dora: One thing might be…. [Recording ends Abruptly]
Description
An Interview with Dora Devol Brett about her recollections Crissy field and the early Army Air Corp in the 1921 through 1924 where she lived as a child.
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