Audio
Oral History Interview with William E. Richards Sr.
Transcript
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection. Brown versus Board of Education court case interviews. Interviewee: Lieutenant Colonel Richards.
Sr. W. Richards: William E.
Oloye Adeyemon: William E. Richards and interviewer: Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Uh, this interview is conducted at the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic site in Topeka, Kansas, on September 19th, 2001, and this is the second part of our interview, uh, looking at the NAACP. Uh, we stopped, uh, talking about some of the activities that went on in the ’30s and some of the meetings that were held to discuss the schools and other issues of concern here in Topeka. And I understand that, um, in the ’40s when, uh, efforts began that led to, um, um, eventually to the Brown versus the Board of Education, um, case. One of the important cases was the Graham case.
Sr. W. Richards: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, can you tell us what that was about? Was that—was-was, uh, Burnett always—already president by that time?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, you mean when, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: The Graham case.
Sr. W. Richards: The Graham case? Uh, let me just see if I have—
Oloye Adeyemon: The date, yeah. What-what date was that when the Graham case was, uh, brought to trial?
Sr. W. Richards: Okay. Uh, the Graham case—uh, the case was won in 1941.
Oloye Adeyemon: So that was earlier.
Sr. W. Richards: That was earlier.
Oloye Adeyemon: That was just before he became—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: - president.
Sr. W. Richards: - that’s true.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And what was the Graham case about?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, this was the—the Graham case was where, uh, Mr. Graham was concerned about, uh, the colored students in elementary schools were being held through the eighth grade—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - and, uh, the, uh—he came to the local branch, the Topeka branch, for assistance, uh, in, uh, pursuing that legisla—you know, that legal action.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, the, uh, the case went to court, and, uh, uh—oh, the case was won in 1941. Uh, basically what was going on everybody else, other than the colored students, were going to the high schools or the junior high rather—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - uh, after the seventh grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: So there were there seventh, eighth, and ninth.
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right, see?
Oloye Adeyemon: But—
Sr. W. Richards: But the colored students were being held the additional year.
Oloye Adeyemon: They were held all the way through—
Sr. W. Richards: The eighth grade.
Oloye Adeyemon: - seventh and eighth, so they only went there for the ninth grade.
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right. See? Now, uh, at that time, uh, the attorneys that were involved was a, uh, attorney Lauren Miller, uh, who represented the, uh, uh, local branch. And, uh, at that time, attorney, uh, William Bradshaw—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - was the, uh, the, uh, legal redress committee chairperson.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Sr. W. Richards: You see?
Oloye Adeyemon: And this-this did go to trial. It was won.
Sr. W. Richards: It did go to trial and was won.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it in the county courthouse, or was it in the federal district court?
Sr. W. Richards: It would have been in the, uh—in the district court. The-the-the-the-the-the local county court—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. The local—
Sr. W. Richards: - was where-was where—
Oloye Adeyemon: - county court.
Sr. W. Richards: - it went. Yes. That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Sr. W. Richards: You see?
Oloye Adeyemon: So once this happens, what—were-were-were there any other important things that took place in the ’40s prior to the Brown versus Board of Education case?
Sr. W. Richards: I would say-I would say yes that, uh, oh, starting about 1942, um, McKinley Burnett and members of his executive committee would, uh, go to the local school board meetings in order to try and raise the issues that were relevant to the minority community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, the, uh, uh—they wouldn’t be recognized or given any standing to speak. The, uh, boards would stay in session and—or they would, uh, uh, have, uh, dialogue, uh, among themselves and be laughing and joking and everything like that. But they would not give the local people the opportunity of expressing their displeasure—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - with the conditions and segregation within the schools. And, uh, it was that type of thing that eventually, uh, provoked, uh, Mr. Burnett, and, uh, the Topeka branch, uh, to recruit the 13 families that eventually, uh, tried to register their children in some of the white schools—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - were refused, and that made the basis of the legal action that is entitled, you know, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: What year did they attempt to enroll their students in school?
Sr. W. Richards: Okay. They—well, they—in 1948, uh, I say between ’42 and ’48. In ’48 was when the local branch requested help from the national office.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, sometimes in the ’50s now—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - we had, uh, uh, legal representation to come to Topeka. Thurgood Marshall—I remember I had—I mentioned to you Franklin Hall Williams.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, Franklin Hall Williams was, uh, an attorney in the NAACP legal defense line.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And he came here, and there was another Brown suit up in Johnson County—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - that, uh, was also, uh, being pursued and supported by the NAACP.
Oloye Adeyemon: It wasn’t called Brown. It was another—
Sr. W. Richards: Huh?
Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 06:20] suit. It was-it was not called Brown. You said another Brown suit.
Sr. W. Richards: It was-it was-it was-it was some—a Brown suit, yeah. What was that woman’s name?
Female Voice: It was a different person. Esther Brown.
Oloye Adeyemon: Esther Brown.
Sr. W. Richards: Esther Brown.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Not-not Brown versus—
Sr. W. Richards: Oh, no. No. This was—
Oloye Adeyemon: This is [crosstalk 06:34]—
Sr. W. Richards: - this was Esther Brown—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - but the NAACP legal defense fund came in here and worked with that. Elijah was the—Elijah Scott was the counsel, and this friend of mine came in from the legal defense fund.
Oloye Adeyemon: Came to New York?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, in New York.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 06:50].
Sr. W. Richards: See?
Oloye Adeyemon: And they fought that case. Now, let me be clear ’cause we’ve gone into the ’50s. Do you have a-a pretty good—y-you said it was in ’48, I think, that they actually tried to enroll their students in the white schools, the elementary schools?
Sr. W. Richards: Okay. Let me see if I can figure just—’cause I’ve got—my-my folks did a real good job. Okay. Okay. Now, I’ll give you this. Uh, the national office was asked to help in 1948. Uh, Walter White, the NAACP executive secretary, came here, uh, at that time, and, uh, spoke, uh, at, uh, they—oh, it’s no longer here now. But we had a Civil War memorial building. It’s the old building on 10th Street. Okay. Uh, and he spoke to the, uh—a gathering there—
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Sr. W. Richards: - and, uh, started to mobilize, uh, the-the people toward taking some positive action. Now, we did have national lawyers that came here in 1951. Uh, in 1951, basically what was going on was that—this when was Thurgood Marshall and them came down—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - and, uh, began to, uh, talk strategy, legal strategy, I guess with Charles Bledsoe at that time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And, uh, since he was the, you know, legal redress person—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - uh, and, uh, Lucinda Todd was the secretary. Lucinda Todd had in a case herself individually because of her daughter. There was a Todd versus the State of Kansas that I think later on that she just let that go with the general class action that went to the Supreme Court I—if I recall.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Now, let me understand. Prior to the people coming in in 1951 from the national—
Sr. W. Richards: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - had the parents already tried to enroll their sch—students in the white schools? This is something that was part of the strategy that was employed after that.
Sr. W. Richards: Okay. The timing-the timing-the timing is what you’re after. Okay. Maybe the timing—I need to go into this.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And while you’re doin’ it, we can talk.
Sr. W. Richards: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, so I think the sense that you’re-you’re-you’re giving is—mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Okay. Here’s—here—here’s—this-this refreshes me. Uh, in 1950, Burnett went to the education—board of education and indicated to them that if they didn’t do something about desegregation that they would be subject to a lawsuit.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: You know, that was when they went. Now, it was in, uh—shortly after that time that he recruited. In other words, Burnett, the unsung hero, was the orchestrator of getting the 13 Black families that became the petitioners—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - together under the banner of the Topeka NAACP.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And, uh, having them to go to the white schools and be refused—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - to establish the cause—
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Sr. W. Richards: - of action.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that would’ve occurred in 1950.
Sr. W. Richards: That’d be—that was 1950.
Oloye Adeyemon: Got it.
Sr. W. Richards: In 1951—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, they’re preparing the case.
Sr. W. Richards: Oh, that’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Sr. W. Richards: In 1951 was when the NAACP filed suit.
Oloye Adeyemon: Got it.
Sr. W. Richards: Okay? That was—
Oloye Adeyemon: And that was in federal district court—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to—in Topeka. Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah. See?
Oloye Adeyemon: And that case was represented by who?
Sr. W. Richards: By Elijah, uh, Scott—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - uh, Charles Scott and John.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was, uh, Charles Bledsoe also involved?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, Bledsoe, I don’t believe was in it. I don’t think that he-I don’t think that he was—he was one of the attorneys, but I don’t—I don’t think that he was licensed at that time. Huh? This-this—
Female Voice: He was the legal redress chairman.
Sr. W. Richards: He wa—he wasn’t legally licensed at that time as I-as I recall.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Sr. W. Richards: You see? So you get—here’s-here’s—
Female Voice: He worked for the post office.
Oloye Adeyemon: He worked for the post office.
Sr. W. Richards: No. No. Bledsoe worked for the fire department. He was a fireman, and Bledsoe went to school at night at Washburn University.
Oloye Adeyemon: In order to pass the bar.
Sr. W. Richards: In order to get his-get his law degree.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, at this point, he knew the law, and he was working with it—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but he was not a legal counsel.
Sr. W. Richards: Not le—that’s exactly why he referred it to the Scotts.
Oloye Adeyemon: Got it.
Sr. W. Richards: You see what I mean?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Now, it was later that Bledsoe practiced. He left Topeka and went to Chicago, Illinois.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And this was where he practiced there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, he—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, although he did not practice here, he was a major force—
Sr. W. Richards: He was.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in getting this case together. He supported it.
Sr. W. Richards: This-this is correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Sr. W. Richards: He was-he was the one that did the legal interpretation before it went to the Scotts. You see? Like a right-hand person to—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - uh, McKinley Burnett.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: You see? So, uh, he’s another one of the unsung heroes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: See? And I think, uh, uh, one of the things that I recall is that John Scott, the very year that he died, was here for a back home reunion. And at the back home reunion, he indicated, “I want to set the record straight.” Huh. And Bledsoe’s niece from Phoenix, the judge, she was here. She broke into tears because, apparently, it was the first time that the part that Bledsoe had played had been honestly and openly laid out. You know what I mean? It was—you see? And she was in tears. I-I-I haven’t heard or seen her since that particular, uh, back home reunion, see? But, uh, uh, you know, the truth is the light.
Oloye Adeyemon: Absolutely. And we’re-we’re understanding from what you’re saying that there are some points that have not gotten enough attention or not been looked at carefully enough or understood carefully enough.
Sr. W. Richards: Well, this-this, of course, has been—always been my-my concern. I mean, like I say, I-I don’t carry the excess baggage of the families and different things like that that I hear that were involved. But the thing is that each one of them has attempted in their own way to, uh, assert for themselves a superior role. I’m talkin’ about family by family, really. And, uh, uh, a lot of this is, of course, important, but the thing about it is that they all shared equally as petitioners. None is more worthy than the other.
You see what I mean? And that’s the kind of balance that I would like to see as this historical site is established. One of the things that was distressing to a lot of the folks here was when the Brown Foundation was established. See? That-that became very exclusionary rather than inclusive. That if it had said, “Brown versus Board of Education Incorporated Foundation,”—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - then that would’ve included all of the petitioners in equal standing, okay?
Oloye Adeyemon: Let me go back to something you said, um, ’cause I wanna make sure I’m clear. Uh, when the NAACP brought this case, it was taken to the federal district court—
Sr. W. Richards:Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - by the local people. At what point did it join the other cases that were going? I know it was—the case was lost. But at what point did it go on to the Supreme Court? And the other Brown case—
Sr. W. Richards: Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in Johnson County, how does it factor into this?
Sr. W. Richards: Well, it-it-it fac—it factors in-in-in this particular respect. Uh, that the other case up in bro—in Johnson County, uh, had to do with the building of a new school building that was going to exclude colored or minority students. And this white lady went to court objecting to that on the basis that they were equal taxpayers. And-and-and-and they won. See? But, uh, that was the crux of her case.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what was it again?
Sr. W. Richards: What was her name again?
Oloye Adeyemon: She was objecting to—
Sr. W. Richards: She-she was objecting to a new school being constructed. It was constructed—
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh, but it was constructed, and that colored students would not be in attendance.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, let me understand. This was not a city of the first or second class, was it?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, no. It wasn’t.
Oloye Adeyemon: Based on the state law—
Sr. W. Richards: What was that? [Unintelligible 16:10]?
Female Voice: Shawnee.
Sr. W. Richards: Shawnee? Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: I don’t understand. It seemed like the legal basis for this being done in Kansas, based on Kansas’, uh, statute was the size of the city. I thought that in the—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - cities under the size—
Sr. W. Richards: Well, this—
Oloye Adeyemon: - u-u-under that size—
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that the—that they did—that that p—that option was provided to the larger cities, but—
Sr. W. Richards: It—
Oloye Adeyemon: - I didn’t understand it was provided—
Sr. W. Richards: It-it—
Oloye Adeyemon: - to the lower—smaller [crosstalk 16:36].
Sr. W. Richards: It-it-it was—it wasn’t a first-class city.
Oloye Adeyemon: So then why—
Sr. W. Richards: That was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - was that even—
Sr. W. Richards: That was pre—that was precluded by law.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Sr. W. Richards: But this was going on through their board of education.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though the state statute did not support it?
Sr. W. Richards: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that, in part, why she won?
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: See, but the thing about it is that the suit didn’t go outside of the state.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: I think it was settled right—see, there were many cases—
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Sr. W. Richards: - that came up, but many of them did not go outside of the state.
Oloye Adeyemon: And it seems like one reason they didn’t is because the NAACP won so many of ’em.
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah. Yeah. See? They did—they-they-they did go—they didn’t go outside of the state.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: See? The thing about it is it was in ’51—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - when the branch here requested and joined in the class action suit—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - that was being conducted by the national.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was that something that the-the-the-the chapter here wanted to do, or was that something that the national wanted you to do?
Sr. W. Richards: I think it was a mutual understanding.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: See, I think that after Walter White and Thurgood came here, that basically, they were getting a basket of people from South Carolina, all of these folks, they were bringing—
Oloye Adeyemon: Virginia, Delaware, D.C.
Sr. W. Richards: That’s correct, see? Uh, they were bringing them together in order to say on me, “Well-well-well, here’s an action that’s a class action.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Got it.
Sr. W. Richards: See?
Oloye Adeyemon: It draws more attention to it?
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And now, I’ve heard that there were statements made by the national at some point that suggested that, uh, the focus was going to be on the South and then will come back to you. Were you aware of any statement like that ever being made?
Sr. W. Richards: No. But I can go back to—I’m goin’-I’m goin’ back 25 years. See, and this, again, it was a part of the problem. That, uh, the number one when the Brown Foundation was started that, uh, I know that, uh, Miss Henderson, Cheryl, wanted to get Charles Scott and Bernadine Scott to come into her organization on the board of directors, and they refused to. I am—I-I-I just think that basically, you know, that, uh, Cheryl did a lot of good work, you know, getting the, uh, uh, organization established, and at the same time, initiating a lot of the work that had to be done on establishing the historic site. The thing about it was, was that these were people of another generation. Cheryl was like a baby to them.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And they did not feel that—they didn’t feel comfortable in being included.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Well, let me understand.
Sr. W. Richards: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, how does—y-your—did you understand my question?
Sr. W. Richards: Go ahead. Repeat it again.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. My question was specifically—
Sr. W. Richards: Okay. Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - what-what did—I understand. I’m not sure.
Sr. W. Richards: I’m gonna—
Oloye Adeyemon: - of the source—
Sr. W. Richards: - I’m tryin’ to give you—
Oloye Adeyemon: - but it seemed like I heard—
Sr. W. Richards: Let me give you some background.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that—
Sr. W. Richards: Let me give you some background.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’m not sure if Thurgood Marshall said it or someone else, but that someone came in from the nationals and had indicated when people here were talking about their case that, yes, we’ll assist with this case, but we’re going to deal with the South first and then come back—you’ve never heard-never heard anything like that?
Sr. W. Richards: No. No. No. The—see, uh, you’re-you’re back at the formulation and what I’m—and-and we were talkin’ about, uh, apples and oranges.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Sr. W. Richards: Okay. See, the, uh—I don’t believe that there was anything like that, uh, during, uh, the, uh, pursuit of the case at the Supreme Court level.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: I think that where you may have heard that was afterwards when we had correspondence, for instance, the 1970s. The 1970s, we were hoping that we would be able to get, uh, the national organization to come in and celebrate the Brown decision here for the 25th birthday.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Instead, they opted to go to South Carolina—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - and they opted to do that because there was so much dissension here among these families that they didn’t really feel comfortable about it.
Oloye Adeyemon: So you’re saying that this thing that I’m tryin’ to—
Sr. W. Richards: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - get some clarification on was not something that was said when the case was being put—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 21:13] it. This was something that might’ve been said when the commemoration—
Sr. W. Richards: There was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - for the 25th year.
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I think it was—
Sr. W. Richards: There was—
Oloye Adeyemon: - 20—was it 25?
Sr. W. Richards: The 25th year.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Sr. W. Richards: There was too much disruption, uh, going on here. I mean, the—
Oloye Adeyemon: So rather than celebrating here, they celebrated—
Sr. W. Richards: They went down—
Oloye Adeyemon: - in South Carolina.
Sr. W. Richards: - to South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Sr. W. Richards: See, now—
Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause I think I heard about that. That was in—what year—that would’ve been in 1970?
Sr. W. Richards:This—no. This had to be in ’76 or ’77. See, because basically—see, base—basic—it-it—yeah, about ’76 or ’77 because what went on was the, uh, dedication of the statue out in the law library is what—is focused in my mind. When Bernadine wrote Coretta—huh—and said that your husband couldn’t do what he’s been able to do if my husband hadn’t done what he did. See, we had all of that, and, uh, Coretta Scott, at that point, indicated that she would—that-that, uh, she would not be able to make the engagement to come in and do the guest speaker—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - out at the law school, okay? Uh, I had to get hold of her and, uh, Dean Spring, Ray Spring out at the law school to request, then, that well, isn’t it possible, I mean, that maybe one of your children might come and represent the family. We got the, uh, younger girl, who is, uh, now a minister.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And, uh, the thing that we had to do was that the mother, Coretta, asked us to ensure that she was protected against any dissension.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, to sort of keep her—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - you know, compartmentalized—
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Sr. W. Richards: - uh, which-which we did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Let me go back ’cause this isn’t as important as well. But I want to make sure I—’cause there’s cohesion ’cause we covered quite a bit of the steps—
Sr. W. Richards: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - here in the development of, um, these cases in the NAACP. Now, the Supreme Court case is won.
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: The job’s not finished.
Sr. W. Richards: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: What does the NAACP—what-what ac-actions are the—are—what actions are taken by the NAACP to-to implement this or to challenge the way in which things have been permitted or not been permitted after the 1954 decision?
Sr. W. Richards: The, uh, the thing that I have—that I’ve noted here, uh, quite frankly, is that, uh, we have a struggle against complacency on the part of people in the Black community, parents included. The, uh, level of accountability for students, for the children, uh, holding them accountable really has to be one of the things that we, uh, are most concerned with. Uh, actually, if you look at a recent survey that we had of ACT scores that, basically every other ethnic group was exceeding us, even the Hispanics. And I believe that they’ve reported that what we were showing, uh, 17 percent rate, while the other groups were in the 20 or 22 percent range. Huh? It was headlined in the Topeka Capital-Journal.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: I was very offended when I saw that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - because I believe in excellence in—
Oloye Adeyemon: Sure.
Sr. W. Richards: - in-in, you know, in school. Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Let me understand something. Now, this is-this is something that still is occurring?
Sr. W. Richards: Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Sr. W. Richards: This-this is—
Oloye Adeyemon: But weren’t there some more court challenges here locally?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, the thing is that we did have, uh, what? There was a Brown II and a Brown III. And basically where that came up—I’m-I’m only acquainted with Brown III, the last case. The second case, I don’t—I’m not fully acquainted with that. But what had gone on was that the U.S. Supreme Court, as they handed down their decision, really did not put any teeth in the enforcement of desegregation.
Uh, here locally, what we had at our school board was that the school board, uh, was talking about, uh, a reorganization of the geographic district, school district. The best way for them to have, uh, desegregated was from east to west. Instead, they went from south to north, which still maintained the integrity of the little white districts and, of course, the Blacks over in—on the east sides. You see what I mean? Uh, and, uh, we-we-we had a lot of that. So, uh, this was, again, the real cause of getting into Brown III, you see? That, uh, we-we-we were just perpetuating, uh, you know, uh, segregation, see? But—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, explain to me one more time. How is it being perpetuated?
Sr. W. Richards: By maintaining the geographic—the historically geographic separation of the ethnic groups in this town.
Oloye Adeyemon: So what you’re saying is it took on the de facto segregated n—you know, kind of form where it was now you go to the closest school to you, but in most cases for Blacks, the closest school to them was the school they’d already been going to in many cases. So, a number of the schools—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s-that’s exactly it. And that-and that was when we came up with the magnet schools and different things of that type—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - out of—as a result of the Brown—
Oloye Adeyemon: That—the Brown III.
Sr. W. Richards: - Brown III. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. You know, was there ever bussing used as a solution here in Topeka?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, we have had bussing, yes. Yes. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it dis—was it discontinued?
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, I have not noticed it very prevalent, uh, today.
Oloye Adeyemon: It’s not done anymore?
Sr. W. Richards: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: It’s not being done anymore.
Female Voice: Oh, yes. There’s bussing.
Oloye Adeyemon: Students are being bussed in order to achieve a certain balance in the schools?
Female Voice: I-I don’t know, but they are being bussed, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is it just because of magnet schools, or is it—were children being taken to schools—
Female Voice: To magnet schools-to magnet schools, um, children who, uh—special need students—
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Female Voice: - special ed.
Oloye Adeyemon: But just in terms of the general bussing within the system—
Sr. W. Richards: Hm-mmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to achieve racial balance—
Sr. W. Richards: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that-that didn’t occur?
Female Voice: There’s a lot of bussing, some of which may be—
Sr. W. Richards: See, and-and ba—and basically the buses are really for the kids—kindergarten and, you know, up to a certain grade there—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - I mean, uh, that will go by and pick them up at home—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - and then take them to the little elementary schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: You see?
Oloye Adeyemon: So one of the problems that existed that—
Female Voice: For—excuse me. The magnet schools have buses.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes.
Female Voice: The buses go there.
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. One of the things that occurred as part of that Brown III—
Sr. W. Richards:Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - was an attempt to create more of a racial balance—
Sr. W. Richards: That is correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the schools. Has that been achieved—
Sr. W. Richards: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: - in your estimation?
Sr. W. Richards: It’s—it—well, it has been because basically what they had to do was they had to have a review by the federal court. And the federal court, then, has now determined under Judge Rogers, who was the, uh, district, uh, federal court judge, that, uh, they have re—achieved unitary status. Is that what you call it? In other-other words, we’re in compliance now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Sr. W. Richards: You see?
Oloye Adeyemon: But it took Brown III to bring it—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right. That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 29:09]. Now. This means, by compliance, that the schools are now—there’s a bal—a racial balance in the schools—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that more accurately affects the racial balance—
Sr. W. Richards: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - of the community. Within the schools—
Sr. W. Richards: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - is there any segregations, such as through tracking or other things of that type, where certain students end up in—Black students end up in classes that are predominantly Black because of academic—
Sr. W. Richards: Oh, you’re talkin’ about-you’re talkin’ about special education.
Oloye Adeyemon: Both—
Sr. W. Richards: With—yeah—
Oloye Adeyemon: - with academic tracking for students that are advanced and also—
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, I’m sure that there is some of that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Has there been any concern in Topeka about the acceptance of that ’cause some cities have seen that as a part of the challenge of integrating schools, and they come up with special programs when they find that Black children are-are-are consistent—when there’s a pattern that—
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - can be seen that the academic classes have a ratio that does not reflect the community and the-the-the-the classes that—
Sr. W. Richards: Correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - are maybe more technical oriented or something like that or are remedial or-or—
Sr. W. Richards: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - and-and some communities have developed special programs in order to alleviate that. And then other cities have simply said, “Well, that’s not the school’s responsibility. That’s a soci-social economic issue.” In Topeka, does that exist, and if so, have there been special efforts to alleviate that as opposed to students getting on that track early and remaining—
Sr. W. Richards: I think that—
Oloye Adeyemon: - invested [crosstalk 30:49].
Sr. W. Richards: - over time, that a lot of our concerns in that area have been ameliorated. That basically, that one of the things that I had observed when I first came to Topeka was that minority students were being put into, uh, special education because this was the way that the school district would get more federal funds.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: See? But over time, I think there’s been, uh, more of—
Oloye Adeyemon: A balance.
Sr. W. Richards: - of a balance.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: You see?
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you know what kinds of things were done to achieve that, and was that something that the schools initiated themselves, or was that because of pressure from the community?
Sr. W. Richards: I would say pressure. See, I-I would-I would say—you see, with Brown II and Brown III coming that there was an awful lot of focus on what was going on within this educational system. And I think that these people had to come up with more specific justification why a child was in special ed rather than somewhere else. Uh, we’re beginning to get into the same situation today with the Hispanics. The, uh, English as a second language requirement. See? Uh, these kids come up here, and the—they, uh, are speaking Spanish, Spanish at home, different things like that. Uh, there’s no money put aside for English as a second language instruction in the school that, uh, maybe the school might have an extra pot of money that they can devote to that. At the same time, the Spaniards—or-or the Hispanics are up against the same thing that we Blacks are up against: dropout rates—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - the, uh—accountability of the parents for seeing that those children are constantly reminded about school and, uh, educational achievement—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - different things like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Has the NAACP gotten involved in arguing on their behalf?
Sr. W. Richards: Just this afternoon, I had an audience with the school superintendent, who happens to be a fraternal brother of mine.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And I just sort of casually mentioned to him, huh, about this idea. In fact, what I was saying to him, if we are lacking, uh, uh, enough qualified bilingual teachers that perhaps what the—they might do is to consider a project where they would be taping the English to the Spanish and Black and take that and make that available in the various, uh, uh, vicinities where there is either a shortage of or no bilingual instruction.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, the NAACP, historically, has been concerned about equality and opportunity for all humanity. We don’t restrict ourselves, I mean, just to Blacks. I mean, that, uh, basically I think [unintelligible 33:47] and, uh, uh, Bonda put it rather succinctly that when we talk about color, the reason we don’t wanna take and change our name—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - is because when we talk about color, we’re talking about every color—
Oloye Adeyemon: That there is.
Sr. W. Richards: - of humankind.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Huh? And that’s really where we’re-where we’re coming from. See?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, uh, the thing about it is, again, also that in this branch, we don’t segregate ourselves—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - that, uh, our membership consists of not only the high but also the low. Uh, biracial—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - everything, you know.
Oloye Adeyemon: From what I’ve heard you say, it’s been that way from the—since the beginning—
Sr. W. Richards: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - since [crosstalk 34:27]—
Sr. W. Richards: But I mean, more so again today.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: I mean, like, I was noticing Lisa Heck, who is, uh—and-and maybe I shouldn’t be mentioning. It’s gonna be on tape. But Lisa Heck, who is the daughter of the country district attorney, was just elected to the city council. The-the county district attorney is a member of the Topeka branch.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Our local sheriff is a member of the Topeka branch. Huh? You see [unintelligible 34:54]? I mean, those are things, I mean, that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when you say you shouldn’t mention it on tape, they wouldn’t mind that they know, would they?
Sr. W. Richards: Oh, I don’t—yeah. I-I mean—I-I was just talking about Lisa ’cause I don’t know her.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, okay.
Sr. W. Richards: But I know—but her father and, uh, like sheriff Barta, uh, they’re members of our NAACP branch—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - uh, and, uh, uh, I’m conversant with both of them and visited with them about different problems—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - that we have had and, uh, have had wonderful cooperation—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - see? So it’s, you know, uh, it’s-it’s that type of thing I mean, that, uh, our branch is concerned with here. Uh, we are more involved in negotiation than confrontation.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Sr. W. Richards: You see? That, uh, it’s always better to threaten rather than to throw the punch—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh? Because-because nobody knows whether you’re gonna snap at that punch or not. See? So-so I mean, these are all a part of the things, I mean, that, uh, that we’re involved in.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: Uh, basically, what we’re trying to do is to build membership—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh? You build membership, you build political power—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh? Your representatives of your organization only have to walk into a room. That’s all that’s necessary.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: See what I mean? Uh, you don’t have to get out and shout and holler and all that sort of stuff. You know, that’s sort of old-fashioned. See? But the thing about it is having effective, uh, well-balanced, educated, uh, and independent leadership, see, in all of our branches. See? No more of this snake pit kind of thing, see—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - where everything is all for me and none for you.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: And what we’ve got, uh, I-I-I constantly tell people—I mean, and then some of them think of me, well, uh, what’s-what’s he talking about? See, but I’m three times retired—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - but I have not forgotten days in the ghetto when I was hungry, huh? This is-this is sincerely it. I was very much upset when I took over the branch about the lack of a youth council. I’ve got a youth council because, really, that’s-that’s where we begin and where we end—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh? Bringing youth into something constructive—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - and allowing them to become acquainted with other modes of life, huh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - other examples of people, I mean, that are achievers—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh? And not being so stunted by the fact that they’re in the ghetto, and they’ve seen the hip hops and the gangs and different things like that because all of that is shortly—is short-lived, huh? I pay every bill in my house, and I’m proud to do it. I mean, ’cause I’m a man. I’m a—I’m the man in my house, huh? And that’s what I wish for all of these young Black men, huh, to be independent enough that they want to do those things, educate their children, support the wife. I’ve never raised my hand against my wife, and I was married 52 years as of this past Sunday. Huh? And I mean, uh, my wife has taken beautiful care of me.
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, some—you’ve done somethin’ right. I-I heard your birthdate. You hesitated for a minute, but—
Sr. W. Richards: Oh-oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - you know, you—
Sr. W. Richards: Fifty-fifty—
Oloye Adeyemon: - you have lived a-a rich life.
Sr. W. Richards: Fifty-two years, but the—a-and the thing-the thing about it is that that’s basically what I try to take and bring to the people here now. I mean, that-that, “Look, that nothing is easy. You got to work.” Huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: At the [unintelligible 38:43] education [crosstalk 38:44]—
Sr. W. Richards: You better believe it.
Oloye Adeyemon: - ’cause it’s incremental. If you miss somethin’ early on, and you-you can’t deal as well on it later on.
Sr. W. Richards: Well, but like I tell people, I-I-I may have been blessed in this regard. I spent 28 years in the military with 2 years of college, huh? I retired in 1970. I come out, and the first thing that I did—and this—people have to take and really think about it is the first thing that I did was to go out here and spend two years getting my undergraduate degree, huh? The meantime—see, our people are takin’ jump at things that look like opportunities, right, in the short-term. What I had at that point when I came out, here I am, a Black lieutenant colonel retiring in Topeka, and the state administration had an appointment ready for me right now, but I wasn’t ready for them—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh? I had to keep my own council. I went to school. I was thinking in terms, “Well, I’ll go to school here, and then I’ll go to the law school, and then I’ll go back east and practice.” See, the thing that went on now was by going to school by getting the degree, I already had the experience. I had Ph.D. experience out of the military—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - but I didn’t have that sheepskin that was necessary for me to achieve the pay range that I would eventually get. And when I went in with my degree, I got top salary. If I had gone in without that degree, I would have been cut down.
Oloye Adeyemon: It sounds like part of what you’re saying to people that are comin’ along is don’t focus on just tactics, focus on a long-term strategy.
Sr. W. Richards: Oh, yeah. You got—you’ve-you’ve-you’ve got—you’ve got-you’ve got to do that. Uh, my son’s a Ph.D., only child, huh? I remember in 1963 when I came back from Vietnam. In 1963, my son was talking about getting himself a little temporary job. And what I did—I come home. He wanted a job to mature. And he’d go, “Oh, I’m gonna just take this year to mature.” And I said, “I’m afraid that we’ll lose you. That—my concern all of your young life has been that if I couldn’t leave you a dime, I was gonna leave you with an education.”
And I told him quite bluntly that you better get matriculated up there at the University of Kansas for September, or you get the hell out of my house. It would’ve killed me, but that was tough love. And, you know, a lot of us, like I say, today, he’s a Ph.D. He tells my grandchildren, “Don’t mess with that old man. He’s tough.” See? But I mean, but that was basically, you know, what-what I really had to, uh, [unintelligible 41:42] in that child that noth-nothing is easy. I-I could see him getting involved in a-a sports car and having a monthly bill to pay. You know, and that-and that’s the way the kids get away from focusing on education, see? Uh, education is the best investment that a parent can make, huh? You either put them in college or you see that they get a trade, huh? And then when they are mature and taking care of their own families, in your old age, they’re not asking you for help—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Sr. W. Richards: - huh? See? So, you know, it’s—it-it—it’s-it’s a pay one way or the other. You can take the short-term view, but I mean, basically, what I’ve taken is the long-term view. I’m always been concerned about my faith, my family, and my finances. Yeah. That’s where I’m at. Those are the things that really, really—I-I would wish that, uh, young parents would, you know, be more involved and more concerned with ’cause that’s where it’s at.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Description
Lieutenant Colonel William Richards Sr., retired, was born in New York, New York. Richards attended one of the four segregated elementary schools in Topeka, Kans., and went on to the technically integrated high schools in the city. Richards later served in the U.S. Army and became a member of the Topeka Branch of the NAACP in 1970 and was elected its president in 1999. Richard’s interview provides the reader with insight on the experiences of s
Credit
NPS
Date Created
09/19/2001
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