Audio
Oral History Project - Lawson, Jane 1980
Transcript
NRGNPP 01 8 File NRGNPP 018-T
TAPE EIGHTEEN
Mrs. Jane Graham Lawson
Interviewer:
Paul J. Nyden
Beckley, W. Va. 25801
November 5, 1980
PN: To start off maybe I could ask you when you were born and where you were born.
JL: I was born August 13, 1924 at Glen White.
PN: In Raleigh County?
JL: Yes.
PN: What did your father do when you were growing up?
JL: He was a conductor for the C. and O. Railway Company.
PN: Did you spend your whole childhood in Glen White?
JL: No, we really never lived there. My mother just went there for my birth. At the time, I think we lived in Sewell, which is just below Thurmond.
PN: So you lived in Sewell Immediately after you were born?
JL: Yes, I went back there and I don't know for what length of time — not too long.
PN: When did you move to Thurmond ?
JL: We moved to Thurmond in 1934, from Clyde Street in Beckley. And we had lived before that in East Beckley. I'm not familiar with the street. I know where the house is, and I 'm not familiar with the street.
PN: So you moved to Thurmond when you were ten years old?
JL: Nine, about nine and a half, I guess. I would have been ten in August.
PN: How long did you lived In Thurmond for?
JL: Until 1963, but I worked another year, and drove back and forth to work there at the post office, for a year after we left in 1963, when we came to Oak Hill. And that was due, our moving was due to a fire which destroyed part of the town.
PN: Was that the fire when the Lafayette Hotel was burned?
JL: Yes. And the old Armour Building.
PN: Were you living then in the home…
JL: In the Armour Building, which had two six—room apartments , two three—room apartments, and one two—room apartment, which also housed the S. Post Office, the Teen Club at that time. And this was all destroyed. Besides, another cottage which sat above this building was burned, a six-room and bath cottage.
PN: What were the years that you were employed in Thurmond?
JL: From '42 until ’64.
PN: Was that all as a postmaster?
JL: No, I spent 14 years with — 14 months, pardon me with the C. and O. as a, they called us telegraph operators, but really we just used the telephone. But we did the work of telegraphers at that time, during the war. They did not feel that they had time to teach us telegraphy. Because they needed us desperately so many of the young telegraphers had gone into the service. And I enjoyed this work very, very much; I really did. And I worked at Caldwell, up next to Ronceverte [in Greenbrier County]; at Stone Cliff where they had a station; at Thurmond; and I also worked at Harvey.
PN: This was all for the C. and O.?
JL: Yes, and really enjoyed It. It was very interesting work.
PN: When did you become a postmaster?
JL: I 'm not sure the year exactly that I became postmaster, but I worked about ten months as a clerk before I went to work as a telegrapher. And then after my marriage my first marriage, to Master Sargeant Charles Graham who was very highly decorated he and I both worked for the post office. So I really went back to work in December of 1945. And I was married that year in July. And I would say that was about, I was acting postmaster I 'd say for about two years before I was made post—master. But I worked altogether 19 and a half years for the postal service in Thurmond. And then I worked as a clerk, eight and a half in Oak Hill. And at that time, of course the rules have changed now, I had to come to Oak Hill to work because at that time, you had to live on the job. So that's the reason we had, our family had to move to Oak Hill.
PN: Then that was about the same time as the fire?
JL: That was the same reason, yes, that was the reason for it all. That changed our whole life. And at that time, then I had to go in as a substitute clerk, after being postmaster, which was a big difference.
PN: I was wondering if I could go back to the thirties for a moment and back in the period after you moved there in 1934 [laughing as Mrs. Lawson's white cat began biting the tape reel as it was moving]. I was wondering if I could ask you some questions about Thurmond, and the people, and how the town looked, you know, at about that period in the mid—thirties.
JL: Oh, it was a very nice town. Everybody had flowers and kept everything up very nice, and kept their houses painted. And all the business places, and especially the C. and O., they had numerous flowers planted for every season. And everything just looked real nice, and they kept everything painted and up to date. And we really had just about everything we wanted right there at Thurmond at that time. They had a drug store, and we had a doctor; we had two restaurants, and two stores, a funeral home, and a shoe shop. And there was always some thing, I mean there was so many clubs and so many things going on that you really were busy all the time.
PN: How many people would you say lived in Thurmond at that time in the thirties?
JL: Gosh, I 'm not really sure; but I would say over, well three, four hundred. And most of the large houses, there was two families. One family lived upstairs and one downstairs. There just really wasn't that much room.
PN: How many houses were there? Do you have any estimate of that?
JL: Well, I'd say maybe around the hill there was around 60 houses. And on the lower level, on the street level, I would say there might have only been about 25, but there were also apartment buildings which housed, you know, a number of people in them. So I really don't have any close estimate on that.
PN: Did many people raise gardens there, or wasn't there room?
JL: Where there was room. Yes, everyone did. But there, like I say, there was so little land because most of it was on the hill, that some of them including my father used to go up between Thurmond and Stone Cliff on the river bank where there was room, and they had lovely gardens. My dad always had a nice garden.
PN: There were a lot of people who would do that?
JL: Several, yes, several did. And the ones who had room, you know, around their house or apartment, they did too.
PN: Was that public land, or was it owned by the C. and O.?
JL: Well, most of it was public land; a lot of it was C. and O. land. I had no Idea how much of it. But 1 believe that maybe some other, I don't know whether McKe11 interests, or just who did own the houses on the hill, or anything like that. And of course, Armour and Company you know, at one time was there. And, oh, when I lived there, they also had the telephone exchange, which they did not have at Oak Hill at that time. And we used to like to go and watch the women while they were working.
PN: How much of a walk would it be from, say, where your father lived to the garden that he was growing down toward Stone Cliff?
JL: Oh, I 'd say a good mile and a half each way, maybe two miles. It was a good walk.
PN: Did he go there a couple of times a week?
JL: Oh, at least. You'd have to do that. And then a lot of times, you know, the water would come up, and they would lose their gardens. And it wasn't very funny either, after they would work so hard. But he always had a garden, and really enjoyed doing that type thing. He was a type man that was always busy; he was always doing something.
PN: What type of things would he grow there?
JL: Everything that he could, every possible, and I used to go with him some times . I was always so close to my dad, and loved him so much, and I would beg to go with him. And he'd say, “Now don't step on my vines. And I loved the cucumbers and tomatoes. And I used to take a small salt—shaker and a little knife with me, and I 'd wash them in the river — what a crazy thing to do and eat em, you know. And he'd say, "I 'm not going to have any to take home if you keep eating them all.
PN: Were the gardens between the tracks and the river, or on the other side of the tracks?
JL: Well, going up toward Stone Cliff, there's no tracks that way. It's just below the road and next to the river bank. Which, when they had so much water at times, made them very fertile. So they grew, well in fact, there was one fellow there used to work on the railroad — I believe his name was Kirby — and he grew cantaloupe and a small, round watermelon. So evidently, you could grow almost anything. But my father usually grew a certain kinds of beans green beans, and corn, and radishes, and tomatoes, and cucumbers, and green onions, and that type stuff. He usually didn't try anything different, like cantaloupe or watermelon, but I'm sure others did.
PN: Did he, or some of his friends, ever go fishing or hunting much?
JL: Well yes, my father was a very interested person in all types of sports. He hunted for years and years; In fact, his father had a hunting club at one time. But due to this accident that he had on the C. and O., which part of his foot was removed, he used to say that his foot got so cold that he, you know, he really was miserable.
PN: This was your father?
JL: Uh huh. And we used to laugh because we'd say, "Well, Daddy you don't have that foot." He'd say, "Yea, but it gets cold. And we used to laugh about it. And then, of course, as we children got older, when he would bring, he was a very good hunter because he used to bring everything — rabbit and turkey and pheasant — and when he'd lay it out for my mother to clean, we children would all cry. And he'd say, "I 'm not going hunting any more. They make me feel like a murderer.” So I think between that and the fact that, you know, he was uncomfortable, he quit hunting.
PN: Did he fish also?
JL: Yes, he liked to fish, and was a good fisherman.
PN: What would he catch?
JL: Well, he liked to gig frogs too. And he liked, well all the fish that were in New River. And he would bring those home. And of course, Mother cooked everything that he brought; she knew how to cook the wild food. You know, they say that one of the things you must do with anything wild is soak it in saltwater overnight, and that takes away the wild taste. I don't know for me, because I won't eat it. I love animals too well: I would not want to eat any of It.
PN: What were the types of fish that he would catch? Do you recall?
JL: I was trying to think. I remember some of them that were so large. I guess the bass and, of course, some of them weren't very pretty looking fish. And I don't care for fish; I've never eaten it so I'm not that familiar. My husband probably could tell you exactly, because he's fished some down there too. But I not that familiar with the type of fish. But I have seen fish that, in fact a Mr. Bennett that used to be there came in the post office one day and he had one strung over his back that almost reached below his knees — huge fish.
PN: Was that a catfish of some kind?
JL: I guess. They talked a lot about catfish, so I assume that was the kind it was. And there are people who really — especially those that use trot—lines who really catch an awful lot of fish. And there's good fishing in the river.
PN: When they fished by trot—line, would they string it from one side to the opposite side?
JL: Uh huh, yes. And then they would usually, a certain time, and then they would go back several hours later then, you know, and get what was on the line.
PN: What did they use for bait?
JL: Well, they used to use pieces of meat and hellgrammites, and each one seemed to have a different thing that he thought was the best to catch fish.
PN: Someone was telling me he used pickled corn for that.
JL: Yea, all kinds of things [laughs]. So everybody'd say, "Well this is how I caught my fish"; so, you know, that's what they always used. So you can't hardly what, you know, what they all used. And I really don't remember what my father used. And my father died when he was young; he died instantly — he had a coronary thrombosis when he was 46 years old. Had never been ill a day in his life, and just fell on the floor, and he was dead. So this was a terrible shock at my age; at that time, 1 was 19. It was really a very, well it was one of the first things I think in my young life that really upset me.
PN: He had worked on the railroad his whole life?
JL: Yes, he was a conductor. And his father died exactly the same way, and he was also a young man, also a conductor for the C. and O.
PN: Where was your father born?
JL: My father was born at Keeneys Creek, we think. We do not have, the birth certificate does not list this; we don't know why. We’re in the process now of finding out, but we think it's Keeneys Creek.
PN: Do you know where his father was born?
JL: I was going to say, my father was born in 1897 . His father was born somewhere in England; his name was Tommy Bannister.
PN: What did he do?
JL: He was a conductor.
PN: When he was in England, did he work at all in England?
JL: I believe he must have come over here when he was a young man, and his wife also, my grandmother was also from England.
PN: Really? What did your mother's father do for work when he was here?
JL: My mother's father? His name was John Musgrave. And he was born in England, in Birmingham. And he was a guard for Queen Victoria. And then when he came to this country, he was like a foreman, a boss in the mines. And he was also a baker, and two of his sons took up this trade, which they later went into other fields. But the two sons, Gene and John, both at one time were bakers. In fact, my uncle Jim Musgrave died last month at the age of 84. And he lived here in Oak Hill and worked in a bakery at one time, years ago.
PN: Back in the 1930s again, when you first moved to Thurmond, were there many Black people that lived there at that time?
JL: There were no Black people who lived in the city limits. There was a Black lady who was a maid — in fact, she was our maid for several years her name was Tulip Mann.
PN: Tulip Main?
JL: Mann, M-A-N-N.
PN: And Tulip was her first name?
JL: Yes. And everybody knew Tulip because she was a very good worker. And I understand that she's working as a maid in New York now, and has been there for several years. every day. And of course, my was born, she raised him till But she was with mother and I both he was about four us for a number of years, worked. And after my son years old, Tulip did.
PN: Did a number of Black people live on the south side of the river?
JL: Not too many. Most of our Black people came from somewhere in Virginia. I tm trying to think of this county where most of them came from.
PN: Buckingham County?
JL: No, I can't think of it it was right on the end of my tongue — but I can't think of it right now. And they were the nicest, the colored people or Black people, whatever you want to call them, that anybody would want to ever meet. And most of them worked either on the track or the shop. And there were, some of them, there were three brothers, or there'd be two brothers. And they would come and stay all week, and then they would go back home to Virginia on the weekend. Because the trains ran such hours that they could do that. They would finish their job at three o’clock, and then catch a train at six, and they'd be home ten, eleven o'clock. And then on Sunday night, they would come in on what we'd call Forty—Seven, the fast train. And then they were there to go to work on Monday morning.
PN: Where did they live when they were in Thurmond?
JL: Most of them lived across the river. The C. and O. provided, well they were like a car that was enclosed, like a tool car that they used, and they were fixed up and pretty nice inside. And most of them lived there through the week. But they all lived on the south side.
PN: Are some of those cars, you can see…
JL: Those gray structures?
PN: Yea, you see on the left—hand side of the road.
JL: As you come down the hill?
PN: Yea.
JL: Exactly.
PN: That's the type of thing…
JL: That's right, that's right.
PN: Were there a lot more of them there at that time?
JL: Yes, oh my goodness, I have no idea, but all the way up on that side, where there was room, they were all, several of them. And of course, I would say that most of them, there might have been three to four men to a shack; maybe some of them had two in the buildings. And they were painted gray, and used coal to heat. And I would say they were not the best places to stay, but at that time, you know, things were a lot different than they are now. And I 'm sure now, they would have had better accommodations.
PN: Is that Dunloup Creek that goes up that way?
JL: There's Dunloup and there's Arbuckle, and I believe that's Dunloup Creek that comes down there. And I believe that Arbuckle comes down there on the south side into New River, if I'm not mistaken. [Dunloup flows through Glen Jean and into New River from the southwest, just to the south of Thurmond; Arbuckle flows through Minden and into New River from the northwest, just to the west of Thurmond.]
PN: That's interesting.
JL: Well, and on the south side, they had two stores, which, you know, they now have the Banker's Club. [The Banker's Club is not on the south side.] And it was a really big store. And they also had a place where they sold beer and that type of things, and people could go and sit and talk and drink beer. And when 1 moved there, the Collins Funeral Home was also on the south side.
PN: I was noticing a picture in the Banker's Club — an old photograph — and the street was really crowded with everybody walking up and down.
JL: Yes, there were so many people all the time. And there was always something going on. The men were either going to work, or coming from work, or their ladies were having — I think at one time they had, well I know they had Ladies' Aid and they had like a garden club. And there was always something going on. And so there was always a lot of people on the street, either going to the post office, or going to the store, or whatever.
PN: I was noticing in one of those pictures, there seemed to be a bunch of Black men walking around. Would they be people working on the railroad, or would they be miners that had come in from some of the towns around?
JL: We never had any miners that I would think of to come in there.
[This is contradicted by several of the other interviews, and seemingly by her own statements immediately following.]
Mostly, they were just railroad people. They'd come in, mostly they, from Sewell and all these places, they had to come there to do their banking, and to buy their supplies, and to catch the trains, and this type thing. And then of course, maybe a lot of them were just standing around on the tracks, you know they worked on the tracks. They would bring the crews in there, and sometimes you'd see hundreds of them, it looked like, working on the tracks. [The Black men in the photograph were dressed up, wearing suits.] They really kept them up. Of course then, they didn't have all the machines that they have now, so they had to use a lot of crews to keep the ballast and the ties and things up to standards, what they should be.
PN: Were there many immigrants from Europe living in Thurmond about this time?
JL: No, not at this time. I would say earlier there were quite a few.
PN: Earlier?
JL: Uh huh, in earlier years. I'm sure that a lot of them came in there on the train, and stayed there at either one of the hotels either the Lafayette or the Dunglen and then later went to Glen Jean and
Mt. Hope and places like that.
PN: You mean to work in the mines.
JL: Mm, uh huh, yes. But we didn't have very many.
PN: If there were Polish or Hungarian or Italian people, they would often come in for a while, but they basically worked in the coal mines?
JL: I would say that, yes, uh huh. Thurmond, you know, was really just a railroad town — that's all. So it was usually only people that came in there either to do business with the railroad, or some of the stores, or something there but, you know, would stay. Or they came to see the Dunglen, and see what the place looked like, because there was so much talk about it. And of course, they talk about how wild it was, and I’m sure it was at that time. But we, when the time we went there, there weren't things like that.
PN: But it may have been wilder before?
JL: Oh yes, I'm sure — they told the truth about it; it was pretty wild. But I don't like to hear them call it "Dodge City”, because it was not like that. It wasn't like that at all. It may get that name, but then there's been several articles written to say that it was not like that.
PN: What was the town that the Dunglen was in?
JL: Well, the Dunglen was on the south side of the river.
PN: Was it a separate town?
JL: No, well no, they just said Thurmond. But it was on the south side, and the Thurmond city limits really started kind of in the middle of the town. It was real weird; I don't know why this ever happened. In fact, even the depot was not in the town of Thurmond itself, what they called the city limits. And one of the big stores the Collins Mercantile — when they first opened up, it was not in the city limits. When I moved there, we had a nice, we had a lovely school, up to the eighth grade. And I was trying to think of some of the different things that they had there. Had a place to eat called the Dog Wagon, right at the, close to the station across the tracks. And in the depot, they also had a place to eat, in back. Mr. Wells, they called him "Pop" Wells, a really nice old gentleman. And there was a place to have, we had a skating rink, and a place to dance, and of course we all loved to go swimming on the river bank. We had our own place, a lot of people went up Stone Cliff and went swimming, but we had our own place just below my home in Thurmond. So we just would always put our bathing suit on, a pair of old shoes, and grab a towel, and go to the river.
PN: Was it dangerous at all to swim in parts of the river?
JL: Very dangerous! This is the most dangerous river that I have ever heard about or have ever knowed anything about or ever swam in. It is very dangerous.
PN: Would you go swimming in areas that were smoother water?
JL: Not really, not really. The Indians call it "The River of Death”. And the thing that's so strange about New River is the current. Now you could, we would step in the water today and maybe it would only be two feet deep. And the next day we might step in that same place in a hole over our head.
PN: The base of the creek or the river would shift that much?
JL: That much. And you never knew, and there was such a current sometimes that you would step in it and just not know whether you were even going to get out of it, you know. And it was really very strong. Of course, I used to swim across. The first time I ever got a spanking was for swimming the river. [laughs]
PN: Was that what they called silt in the bottom of the river?
JL: Yea, there is…
PN: And that would just shift?
JL: Right, and the sand, you know. And of course the current's so strong, this is what does this.
PN: Were the currents different from time to time?
JL: Oh yes, and the river runs in a different direction than most rivers. It runs, how do you say that Ralph [her husband]? New River…
PN: It goes north, doesn't it?
JL: Yes, it runs north; most rivers don't run, this way.
PN: Were there whirlpools and things like that in the river?
JL: Yes, yes. There were a lot of them underneath, not on top. You would feel this, you know, around your feet and legs. And of course, the first one that would go in, they'd say, you know, "Don't come in here; it's over your head. I mean, as soon as you walked out three or four feet. And of course, we learned to be very careful; we knew that river was dangerous. And In fact there have been several drownings [sic].
PN: Back then in the thirties?
JL: Yea, well, right up to the time we left there, about every year or two, someone of people would and too many in would get drowned. And anyone who came down there, a lot come to the river to fish, and they ended up drinking, a boat, and there were a lot of drownings.
PN: You were talking before about some of the different buildings and structures in Thurmond in the thirties. Were there any bars or saloons there?
JL: Well, of course, the one over at Pughs, you know, it was on the back side of the store. And like I say, it sold beer. But there was no one that sold whiskey outright that I ever knew about. We had another, what we called a beer joint. That was in one of the first buildings up there.
PN: Was it on the Thurmond side of the river?
JL: Uh huh; it was on the main street.
PN: Did people sell moonshine much?
JL: I guess they did, but at that time, I never knew anything about it. My father was not much of a drinker, for the simple fact that he couldn't; it made him sick. He always, well most of the railroad men usually kept them, I 'd say a pint or a fifth. And when they'd come in at night, cold to the bone from riding the back of the trains and things like this, they would always fix what they called a hot toddy with lemon juice, and spices, and something to make it real hot. And then they would take a bath and go to bed. But we didn't have a lot of town drunks; we had a few [laughs] like every town has. But most of the people were just hard—working, honest, fun—loving people. They liked each other. And everybody knew everybody else and everybody s business. And it was a strange thing, but when someone would get sick and the ambulance would come, there would always be plenty of people there to help load them in the ambulance or do anything they could. It was just like one big family really; that's how we all felt.
PN: Did many people eat their meals out in restaurants and the hotels, like some of the single men who came in to work?
JL: Oh yes, there were a lot of men, of course, that lived there all week. And they certainly, they ate all their meals either in the Lafayette Hotel or the restaurant that was there or the beer joint that had, they usually served hot dogs or something of that type, maybe soup or chili or something. But yes indeed.
PN: So that would be different than say, from the typical coal town that would be along the river?
JL: Well, see we never considered this a coal town [misunderstands the question], which is altogether different from a mining town. It was a, it was a, we just didn't know anything about mining, or miners, at all, because we were just railroad people. That's all that was there. And it was just, really it was a lovely little town — it really was. And I hated to leave it.
PN: In the thirties and the early forties, when you said that you started to work, In what, 1942?
JL: Yes, I went to work.
PN: Were there many women working at that time?
JL: Not too many, no. I think there was maybe one in the grocery store; and well, I'd say, three or four in the restaurants; and 1 know there was two or three in the drugstore which was, oh it was a lovely drugstore for that size town; and oh, let's see, there was I think one, one or two that worked in the Dog Wagon. But there were not, most women just stayed home and took care of the children, at that time.
PN: You were working in the telegraph office of the C. and O.?
JL: Yes, I went to work there. And I think I went to work with them in '43, maybe ‘43, ‘44
PN: Were there other women working with you at that time?
JL: Yes, there was about nine of us at the time.
PN: And that was in part because of the war?
JL: Right, and that so many of the young men had gone to service.
PN: Were you the first women doing that type of work there for the C. and O.?
JL: Yes, we were. In fact, I think about 12 of them even went into Kentucky and helped out in places that they had down there Ashland and places like that. And we worked all over the division. And the reason that I did not work more places is because at the time I only weighed 109 pounds, and there were a lot of the switches in the offices which I could not pull. But I was not able to do, to do, otherwise, I would have liked to gone. In fact, MacDougal had, they were big hand switches; they stood about five feet tall. And you had to weigh about 120 pounds to even pull them over. And of course, they were the switches which turned the lights and switched over into a siding for a train. So it was very important that you not ever make a mistake. And at that time, you had 16 passenger trains running a day. You would have, some days you would have as high as five and six troop trains running through there.
PN: Through Thurmond?
JL: Through Thurmond; all the trains came through there. So besides all the war equipment and supplies that went through, not to mention all the manifests [fast freights] and the coal; so I mean you had a train running maybe all three tracks, side tracks, would be loaded; and your east and west bound all at the same time. And there would hardly be maybe 20 minutes at a time that you didn't have a train on the track, besides your yard engine going all the time. And of course, they were taking the manifests that brought in supplies; they were switching their cars into the yard. And it was a very busy, and you had to be careful, you know, if you were crossing the tracks to listen and to watch. And so it was very important that, when we worked on the railroad, we women, that we not make, anyone make any mistake. Because those tracks are so close that, you know, and if you did not give a train time enough to completely clear. In fact, there was a terrible wreck there.
PN: Was that in the forties?
JL: You know, I'm trying to think what year that was. I’m really not sure. It may have been in the early fifties, and I'm just not sure, but they had a terrible collision. One of the passenger trains was standing at the depot to take on passengers when it was hit by a fast train that went around the block. It was terrible. Fortunately, only a few people that were injured seriously; there were a number of people who had cuts and bruises and this type thing. But I think there was about five who were injured very seriously. But it completely tore up one car, just went right through it. And all the women in town that heard about it, and heard the noise, they called one another and found out about it. And they got up and got dressed, and took their coffee pots and what coffee they had on hand, and what they had to eat like donuts or cake — and took that up there. And of course when they found out the situation was as serious as it was because those people were stranded — they, by the time they got doc tors and everybody down there, then the C. and O. brought in a car like they use on a tool car. And they brought all kinds of stuff to make sandwiches. And I'd say there was quite a number of women who worked all night long making sandwiches, and they brought fruit of all types, and hot coffee and tea, and milk for the children. And we worked all night. And then the ones that were working, went home and bathed, and went back to work. And all of us got a bond from C. and O. in thanks for helping out.
PN: You mentioned before a little bit about the physical appearance of Thurmond back in the thirties . Could you discuss that a little more? What did the streets look like? Were they muddy?
JL: They had wide sidewalks which had cement. And they were swept and kept clean all the time, because each merchant would sweep and hose down in front of his place. And you couldn't really keep in clean though, because of the coal trains and the soot and all that stuff. Sometimes when the trains would belch smoke, as we called it, it was wet and It came down just like wet soot. And when you'd rub it, then you couldn't get it off; you had to go wash it off. And it was very hard to keep house in Thurmond; you just really had to work all the time to keep it looking clean. The windows and the porches; you could go out on the porch and sweep it at noon, and by four o'clock it was covered up with cinders again. It was not an easy task trying to keep a house clean, or curtains. [laughs] And then, you know, we didn't have permanent press; and we used, everybody used to put their curtains on those awful frames. Have you ever seen them? And your fingers would be full of nails and this type thing. And then punchers where you try to stretch your drapes and curtains and that type thing. So the women worked really hard Just trying to, you know, keep a nice house and keep your children in school. And then of course, the railroad men, you know, they didn't go out at evening. Well, they didn't have regular shifts. Well, the clerks did; but the firemen and engineers, conductors and brakemen, they were called out at all hourg of the night. Well, a woman had to get up and pack their lunch and get them ready togo to work. So the women were kept very busy doing their chores.
PN: Did many people grow flowers and house plants?
JL: Yes they did, yes they did. And like I said, the roundhouse especially, I remember that when I was young. They had one section kind of roped off, or probably had something fence, or something up there; and it was real grassy, and they had beautiful flowers, and a big fish pound. And oh, it was really pretty.
PN: There was a roundhouse there?
JL: Yea, that's a huge building across the tracks from the Banker's Club. That great big building.
PN: And they had flowers and everything around there?
JL: In the front of it, they had a place in the front, and they had..
PN: Towards the river?
JL: Yes, on the river side. And then in front of that, they had a bunkhouse where all the men who just came in there for the week, and they stayed there. I don't know how many men could stay there at one time, but it was quite a few.
PN: So some would stay there, and some would stay In the shanties?
PN: The colored folks stayed in the shanties. Then this was for the white men. And then a few of them stayed at the hotel — the Lafayette. And there at one time, there was a couple of places that kept roomers. Mrs. McClure, who was very well known and later run a restaurant in Thurmond, and she had roomers. And she fed the people. So some of the men stayed there for years. You know, they really liked it and she was a good cook. And I 'm sure before that there were one or two others who also had roomers. During the war, Mrs. McClure, the troop trains would stop there a lot of times to take on sand or water or coal or whatever they needed, or just maybe even to wait until another train had cleared — and these boys would get off and go into the restaurant. And she would serve all of them and never charged them a penny. And any service man who came home, and he would come there to visit, he got all his meals free. This is the kind of town it was. Everybody was interested in everybody else. And it was a town where, like I say, there was a lot of gossip. Everybody knew everybody else’s business. And everybody knew when anyone was sick or they needed help. And when they needed help, they took up money and helped them. It was just that type of place to live.
PN: Let me just ask you a little question. You mentioned this fish pond before; was the fish pond…
JL: With goldfish in it, yes.
PN: Which the company kept…
JL: They certainly did, they did. And it was very nice. And you know at one time, there was a turntable there.
PN: For the trains?
JL : Yes, the engines. And they would turn them. And then of course where the shop, the roundhouse — I don't know why they called it the roundhouse but they would pull the big engines in there. That's how big it was, and then they would work on them. See the tracks run right into the roundhouse. And I forget, I would say they could have three or four engines in there at one time.
PN: It wasn't round though?
JL: No, that's why I really don't know why they called it the roundhouse. It was a big, long, huge building. And then the men's offices were in the front. And then right in front of that is where the grass and the flowers and then they had a big, a huge sign up there to say "Chesapeake and Ohio Railway Company," and some little write—up about it and that type thing. So it was a well—kept, and the people kept the front of their stores and the windows clean, and they kept it up real nice. They really did. Oh yea, we had a dentist; I don't know whether I mentioned that to you. Everybody just loved, it was Dr. P. G. Young. I believe he lived on Beury Mountain at one time. And everybody loved to go see Dr. Young, and he was quite a character. And a friend of mine Helen Clark Thomas now, who now lives in Atlanta, Georgia — and she and I, when we'd have a toothache we used to go together, because we were both such big cowards. When one of us would holler, the other would, so he told our parents not to let us go any more together.
PN: Got about two minutes left here. Were there any baseball teams there like they had in many of the coal towns.
JL: Not really. They, you know, they just had groups to go and play baseball. But to have teams, no.
PN: I said, like they had in the mining towns.
[Her husband again said Thurmond was not a mining town, but a railroad town.]
JL: No, they didn't. They'd just have, the kids would always go and play ball and things, but they never seemed…
PN: No organized teams?
JL: I guess maybe because of the way, the hours that the railroad men worked. You know, they would work such odd hours. And a lot of times, a lot of them slept all day, so they couldn't get enough of them together to make a team. And they worked holidays, Sundays, Saturdays. When they were called, they went to work. And they didn't have, at that time, they didn't have vacations and all the things that they had, and if they were required to work another shift, they did that too.
PN: So they'd be working throughout Sunday, Saturday, Sunday, and the weekend?
JL: Right, they worked all the time. And if there was something that prevented, someone else was sick, then the guy might be called out as soon as he'd had his eight hours rest, he might be called back out to work again.
[End of Tape]
Description
Telegrapher and Postmistress, Thurmond 1934 - 1964
Date Created
11/05/1980
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