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Oral History Interview with Frederick James
Transcript
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v. Board Oral History Collection. Clarendon County school desegregation. Segregation interviews. Interviewee, Bishop James of the AME Church. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Conducted on July 19, 2001, in the offices of Bishop James in Columbia, South Carolina. These interviews are made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project funded for the summer of 2001 by the National Park Service as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History Collection.
Bishop James, what is your full name?
Frederick James: Uh, my full name is Frederick Calhoun James.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is your birthdate?
Frederick James: Well, I was born April 7, 1922.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?
Frederick James: I was born in Prosperity, South Carolina, about 29 miles, uh, uh, northwest of this, uh, this capital city.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And what were your parents’ names?
Frederick James: My mother’s name was Rosa Lee Gray James of, uh—and my father, of course, was—uh, name was Edward James.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born?
Frederick James: They were born, both of them were born in South Carolina. My father in Newberry, South Carolina, just a county seat, and my mother, uh, in Prosperity, as-as was I.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And would—did you have—do you have brothers and sisters?
Frederick James: No. Uh, no brothers, no sisters. Um, there was a young man that I was—that was raised with me. He was a cousin, was raised as a brother, but not a brother.
Oloye Adeyemon: What occupation, uh, did your parents—were your parents in?
Frederick James: My father was a mechanic. Uh, he, uh, was a master mechanic. Uh, he could, uh, take an automobile apart and put it back together and make some of the parts. My mother was a music teacher. She, uh, uh, uh, did not, uh, finish college, b-but, uh, she was, uh, a musician.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And did she teach, uh, private lessons? Was she [crosstalk 02:48]
Frederick James: Yes, she did. She-she-she did teach private lessons. Tried to teach me, uh, but we had a conflict with baseball practice and music lesson time, and, uh, baseball won, but I’ve always had a-a-a-a appreciation for music.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was your career?
Frederick James: Um, I, um, have been a minister, uh, uh, since, uh, since I was 21. I, uh, went to—um, I graduated from, uh, Drayton Street High School in Newberry—
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the name of the high school?
Frederick James: Drayton Street High.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?
Frederick James: D-R-A-Y-T-O-N.
Oloye Adeyemon: Street?
Frederick James: Drayton Street High School in Prosperity. And went from there to Bettis Jr. College in Trenton, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell that?
Frederick James: Uh, B-E-T-T-I-S, uh, Junior College. I got an Associate of Arts degree from there and then went on to Allen University, where I received my Bachelor of Arts degree.
Oloye Adeyemon: That was an AME school?
Frederick James: That’s an AME school—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Frederick James: - here in Columbia—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Frederick James: - Columbia, South Carolina. And then, uh, from there to Howard University, School of Religion. Uh, came out of Howard with a Master of Arts degree. Uh, and from there to Union Theological Seminary in New York, uh, t-to do, uh, uh, doc—post-graduate study. Um, but I was unable to stay there long enough to get the doc-the doctor’s degree. Came back—uh, in the meantime I had, uh, received a call to be, uh, um, a minister. Uh, I came back to teach at Allen University, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was this?
Frederick James: - Dickerson Seminary—1947. Um, I taught from 1947 to 1949. And then became dean of Dickerson Seminary, at Allen University. Uh, and during those last four years I was both a teacher and a dean.
Oloye Adeyemon: What was the name of the seminary?
Frederick James: Uh, Dickerson. D-I-C-K-E-R-S-O-N. Dickerson Theological Seminary.
Oloye Adeyemon: You had not yet begun to pastor, right? [Crosstalk 05:10]
Frederick James: Yes. I’d begun to pas—do it simultaneously.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, when did you start?
Frederick James: Doin’ both together.
Oloye Adeyemon: When did you start?
Frederick James: Started pastoring—actually, started pastoring while I was a student at Howard in the summertime.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: What church?
Frederick James: -uh, my first church was, uh, Friendship AME Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: In Washington, D.C.?
Frederick James: Uh, no, no. In-in, uh, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: While you were home—
Frederick James: In summertime.
Oloye Adeyemon: - for—yes.
Frederick James: When I came home for summer.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: And then back to Howard, uh, back to Washington. I was, uh, assistant, pastor of a junior church, Metropolitan in Washington.
Oloye Adeyemon: Metropolitan Church?
Frederick James: Metropolitan AME Church in Washington.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is—
Frederick James: - while I was there—a student there.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then while you were at Allen, you were also pastoring.
Frederick James: Yes. And-and then when I came back to work in 1947, uh, I was, uh, uh, I was a pastor of, um, of, uh, Wayman AME Church in Winnsboro.
Oloye Adeyemon: In where.
Frederick James: Wayman in Winnsboro, South Carolina. [Crosstalk 06:08]
Oloye Adeyemon: How do you spell Winnsboro?
Frederick James: W-I-N-N-S-B-O-R-O. Winnsboro, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the name of the church?
Frederick James: Wayman. W-A-Y-M-A-N AME Church for-for-for three years. Uh, also one of those summers I pastored, uh, Bishop’s Memorial, which is a college church. Bishop’s Memorial AME Church here in Columbia, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Frederick James: But-but ’47 to, uh, ’50—Wayman, and then, uh, uh, 1950 I was assigned—appointed, pastor of Chappelle Memorial AME Church here in this city, Columbia.
Oloye Adeyemon: How long?
Frederick James: For three years. We finished building a new church there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Frederick James: For three years, uh, and then in 1953, uh, my teaching ended, uh, at Allen when I was assigned, appointed, pastor of, uh, Way—of, uh, Mt. Pisgah AME Church, uh, in Sumpter, South Carolina, 1953. Uh, and from then until 1972, when I was elected a bishop to fill one of eight places in the world, uh, I was pastor of Wayman—I mean of Mt. Pisgah AME Church in Sumpter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And, uh, the—when you said there were eight positions in the world. Uh, those are the eight, uh, bishops of the AME Church.
Frederick James: That’s right. We, in the AME Church, we don’t elect a bishop until there is a vacancy.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And—
Frederick James: There must be a place. There must be a place, a vacancy. We have, uh, 19 episcopal districts, which is places for a bishop, an AME bishop, to serve, uh, and one ecumenical office, which I also served during my time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: But of those 19, there’s only eight bishops?
Frederick James: No, no, no. Uh, we had eight places at that time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Eight [crosstalk 08:17]
Frederick James: Every four years they meet and determine how many bishops do we need to elect?
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Frederick James: How many have retired? How many have died?
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. I see.
Frederick James: How many places are there?
Oloye Adeyemon: Which, uh, district were you a bishop in?
Frederick James: I was-I wa-I was elected—when you are elected a bishop, you are subject to be sent anywhere. But my first assignment, I was bishop of the 18th Episcopal District, which consists of four countries in southern Africa. Um, that’s Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana, and Mozambique. Those—that was my first assignment.
Oloye Adeyemon: For how long?
Frederick James: Uh, four years. But then four year—four months later a bishop died, and, uh, the council of bishops met and made an assignment, which it makes in the interim of a general conference, which is the quadrennial meeting.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: And we made a shift, and I was given two more countries, which is—‘cause it’s the 15th district, which were contiguous to the 18th, uh, both—but they were in southern Africa.
Oloye Adeyemon: Which countries were they?
Frederick James: They were Sou—the Republic of South Africa and Namibia, which was southwest Africa.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the first four were...
Frederick James: The first four were Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana, Mozambique.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And so now two have been added.
Frederick James: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: How long did you hold that office?
Frederick James: So, uh, for six—six countries. I was bishop of six countries for four years.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: We built, uh, publishing houses, did some things that were [faded voice 09:50]
Oloye Adeyemon: And then after that, you became—
Frederick James: - churches...
Oloye Adeyemon: - you became bishop of what district?
Frederick James: I was brought back to America in 1976—uh, this was ’72—’76 I was brought back to America and assigned bishop of Arkansas and Oklahoma.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh, and, uh, was assigned two terms for that particular assignment. Uh, in 1984—this was from ’76 to ’80 and then from ’80 to ’84. And then, uh, in 1984 I was assigned bishop of the 7th Episcopal District, which is the state of South Carolina, which is the biggest district in the AME church system.
Oloye Adeyemon: Really?
Frederick James: Yes, sir.
Oloye Adeyemon: The state of South Carolina is a district, and it is the largest.
Frederick James: It’s a district. It’s bigger than-it’s bigger than, uh, than, uh, the fifth district where you come from.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Fifth district consists of, uh, uh, of Missouri, uh, uh, all of the property between Missouri and California, uh, W-washington, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: State.
Frederick James: - Mexico. Yes, state of Washington, Nevada, Colorado.
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and this district’s larger than all of that.
Frederick James: This district has got 400—got 620 churches.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: In that district you got about 480.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I certainly recognize that in Summerton, in the Summerton area, Clarendon County—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - um, almost all the churches that I saw in the black community were AME churches.
Frederick James: Yes. Well, but there are a lotta Baptists.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, yeah. there were quite a few, but I—
Frederick James: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - I was just surprised at the number of—
Frederick James: But it’s the stone 11:29.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: There are more AME’s in this state than any state in the union.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’m not surprised, based on what I see in Clarendon.
Frederick James: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: I am surprised, but not surprised having seen so many.
Frederick James: AME—
[Crosstalk 11:38]
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, as a result of your civil rights involvement, your active civil rights involvement, you were, uh, honored. What—in what way?
Frederick James: Uh, I was honored by the, uh, uh, by Bell South and the state of South Carolina. The, um, uh, it was the Department of Education, by being made one of the honorees for the millennial calendar. Uh, and that’s what you have there.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 12:10] I saw. Yeah.
Frederick James: That’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: You gave us a copy.
Frederick James: That’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Frederick James: - one of the honors. Uh, I have member of the South Carolina Black Hall of Fame, uh, which is another honor that’s given. Uh, uh, I’ve, uh—I’m a member of the—I’m [unintelligible 12:26] the-the Columbia, South Carolina Wall of Fame—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - which has, uh, housing, um, uh, connections. Uh, the, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: What do you mean housing connections?
Frederick James: I-I—anybody who lives in a public housing project who did extraordinary work on behalf of humanity in—
Oloye Adeyemon: Then they get that.
Frederick James: - the state of South Carolina is on the—is-is-is listed on the Wall of Fame, uh, for—that’s from Columbia, South Carolina.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh, I was inducted the same time Cardinal Bernadin—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Frederick James: - uh, was inducted. He once lived in a housing project here in Columbia.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Uh, you met with President Kennedy at some point.
Frederick James: Uh, yes. I’ve met with—I was personal friends of, uh, good friends of, uh, um—I met him, uh, when I was bishop of Arkansas, when he-he-he was teaching law at-at the, uh, University of Arkansas at Fayetteville.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: And he came to a Freedom Fund dinner I was speaking, an NAACP Freedom Fund dinner in 1976.
Oloye Adeyemon: I’m glad you shared that ‘cause I wasn’t aware of that, but did you also meet Kennedy?
Frederick James: Yes. I met—uh, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Uh, uh, I sure did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Yes, he was—I was invited to the White House, uh, when he was there, on some of our civil rights activity.
Oloye Adeyemon: Civil rights activity you were involved in in South Carolina?
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Frederick James: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that for—
Frederick James: - and also—
Oloye Adeyemon: - advisement?
Frederick James: No. So—
Oloye Adeyemon: Were you also advising them or were you being on—
Frederick James: No. H-he simply sent out invitations to a number of persons that were involved around the country. Uh, he was concerned about, uh, certain initiatives in civil rights moving forward.
Oloye Adeyemon: So he was seeking advice—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - at that time.
Frederick James: Yes. That’s right. Uh, but also, uh, the, uh, Voting Rights Act was signed, you know, in 197—, 19, uh, 65. Uh, I received the 13th pen of the Voting Rights. The first one was given to Martin Luther King. Second one was given to, uh, oh, Whitney, you know, the—uh, third on was given to Whitney Young. The second one was given to Roy Wilkins. The third was given to Whi-Whitney Young. Uh, and Walter Ruolin 14:52, right on down the line. But the 13th—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - uh, was given to me—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Frederick James: - uh, was handed to me—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Frederick James: - uh, uh, in Washington, D.C.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Frederick James: Many honors I’ve had for activities in the Civil Rights movement?
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, we certainly appreciate a person of your stature taking time on short notice.
Frederick James: Well, I’m not statured.
Oloye Adeyemon: The last interview was—
Frederick James: I was just one of the—one of the troops down there—
Oloye Adeyemon: Well.
Frederick James: - in the freedom fight.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. We certainly—
Frederick James: We—
Oloye Adeyemon: - appreciate your efforts, and I’m sure that many others—
Frederick James: I marched with King, and I—
Oloye Adeyemon: - do also.
Frederick James: In his speech, Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution, that-that’s considered one of the great speeches that he gave. You know, we always talk about the I have a Dream and the Letter from Birmingham Jail, but Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution, he delivered that the first Tuesday night in May in Cincinnati to 10,000 people—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - at the NAAC—I mean at the, uh, the, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: You were there?
Frederick James: - AME. The first four minutes of that was me. I presented him that night.
Oloye Adeyemon: All right.
Frederick James: I’m on that tape.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Today, uh, we’re here, uh, looking at, uh, actually, uh, as I said, we’re really honored that-that you would see us. Uh, we were comin’ to Columbia to interview Judge, uh, Matthew Perry—
Frederick James: Surely.
Oloye Adeyemon: - on our way to Washington.
Frederick James: Yeah. [Crosstalk 14:52]
Oloye Adeyemon: And we got home this very day, uh, indicating that, um, you were here, and you were interested in, uh, sharing some information with us.
Frederick James: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And it’s—it was really fortunate that we were at that time in route to Columbia—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and we were able to get here early enough to interview before we see Judge Perry. Uh, we have done, uh, quite a few interviews that have covered quite a bit of the history of both the case, uh, Briggs v. Elliot as well as the school segregation, segregation story in Clarendon County, South Carolina.
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And one of the things that came up in that set of interviews, uh, several times were the incidents, uh, that lead to, uh, Reverend DeLaine having to leave the state of South Carolina—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and how he continued his efforts, uh, played-played a leadership role in the segregation effort from out of the state.
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I understood from talkin’ with you earlier that, um, you were in contact with him, uh, in those, um, weeks after his leaving—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - um, uh, Summerton. Can you share with me, uh, how it was that Reverend J. DeLaine, uh, left Summerton for Lake City?
Frederick James: Yes. Uh, yes, indeed. First of all, let me take-take this opportunity to congratulate you, uh, upon what you’re doing in this research. Uh, the quality of your work, obviously, uh, the expertise which you use, uh, and, uh, uh, the thoroughness with which you approach, uh, this research. I-I, uh, I-I’m very much impressed with that. And I certainly appreciate the opportunity to receive a little bit of something, uh, of what you’re doing. And, uh, and I’ll be following that. And thanks for inviting me to say a word.
Having said that, the day that-that J. A. DeLaine, a friend of mine, he was a personal friend, we were active in getting people registered, uh, to vote, uh, with the NAACP. We met at a lotta different meetings. He was an AME minister. He was pastoring in, uh, Clarendon County, uh, which in what we call here in South Carolina, it’s in the Central AME Conference. I was pastoring in Sumpter, uh, and before that in Columbia, uh, in Sumpter, in the Northeast AME Conference. So we were friends. We were among the—those AME ministers who were concerned about, uh, civil rights.
A lotta the AME ministers were concerned, but not enough to get out and risk their lives and-and be active and go to meetings and, uh, organize and participate. He was a participating AME minister. He and E. E.—Reverend E. E. Richburg, Reverend Seals and, uh, there weren’t a lot of them. B. J. Glover later became very active and involved in, but not a great number. Most of them chose to be, uh, supportive in the background.
Now, the day that-that J. A. DeLaine, uh, used his shotgun was a day that I preached for him before that incident took place.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was that in Lake City?
Frederick James: That was in Lake City.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did he get to Lake City? What happened? You—do—help us understand how and when he left Summerton and why—
Frederick James: He—
Oloye Adeyemon: - how he got to Lake City.
Frederick James: - was pastoring, uh, a church in Lake City. Sometimes AME pastors live at one place—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - and they pastor at another.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was he still—did he still have a home in Summerton?
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that home damaged in some way?
Frederick James: Yes. Uh, that—the—he had had, uh, had a fire, uh, at-at his home.
Oloye Adeyemon: Of supi-of supi- of suspicious origin?
Frederick James: U-under suspicious or-origin.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: And, uh, he said to me the day that I went over—he invited me to preach at a, uh, groundbreaking ceremony for S—
Oloye Adeyemon: In Lake City.
Frederick James: In Lake City—for Saint James AME Church in Lake City, in a very wet, marshy area.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: As a matter of fact, a-all of us got, um, some mud on our feet—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - during that service. And during the lunch that day, he said, “James, uh, the same people, um, seem to be involved in all of the harassing that’s happened to me and my family, the threats that’s being made.” He said, “I believe that they had to do with the burning and with a great deal of the difficulty I’ve had.” He said, “Now, I”—
Oloye Adeyemon: The burning of his home in Summerton?
Frederick James: Yeah. He said, “Now, I’m going to share something with you.” He said, “If they come after me again” he said, “I’m gonna try to do something to mark the car.” He said, “Nobody can find anything. They don’t find any evidence. They don’t know who—anybody that did it.” He said, “If I leave a shotgun mark” he said, somebody won’t have too much trouble finding that.”
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was this? This—
Frederick James: 1955.
Oloye Adeyemon: What—it was—
Frederick James: In the fall of the year.
Oloye Adeyemon: The fall of the year.
Frederick James: Just about annu—uh, annual conference time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: And, uh, uh, so, uh, I knew what was—w-what he was doin’ when I heard what had happened by the grapevine.
Oloye Adeyemon: What did happen?
Frederick James: Well, the—well, the Ku Klux Klan came by late that afternoon. He was sittin’ on his porch, and, uh, they came by and, uh, showed themselves, uh, slowly—
Oloye Adeyemon: Driving?
Frederick James: - parading by his house.
Oloye Adeyemon: Driving.
Frederick James: Driving an automobile.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: And, uh, he looked, and he saw that they had weapons that showed in the window of the automobile. They rolled slowly by, carful. So, uh, he was sittin’ on the porch. So he went in the house, got his gun, shotgun, came back out on his porch, and—but he didn’t reveal—they didn’t see the shotgun. They saw that he was back on his porch.
Oloye Adeyemon: By then they had driven past.
Frederick James: By then they had gone by. They came back.
Oloye Adeyemon: Turned around and came back.
Frederick James: He-he-he assumed that they were going to try it again.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: He said, “They think that they’re going to, uh, scare me.”
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: You know, uh, he said, “But, you know, James” he said, “I’m not afraid.” I said, “Well, everybody in South Carolina knows you’re not afraid.” But-but, uh, we didn’t have any dream—I had no dream that it was going to happen that day.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: That was the uncanny thing, that exactly what he anticipated—
Oloye Adeyemon: ‘Cause he-he—
Frederick James: - took place that day.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. He told you it was gonna happen—
Frederick James: Yeah. He said that they were gonna—
Oloye Adeyemon: - that it was gonna happen at some point.
Frederick James: Yeah, at some point.
Oloye Adeyemon: And after he said it, it happened that very day.
Frederick James: It happened that very afternoon.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: That very afternoon that I spoke for him. So the grapevine, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: This is in the evening—this afternoon you’re speaking of—
Frederick James: Yeah. This is the late afternoon, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So it’s later.
Frederick James: Yeah, later in the afternoon.
Oloye Adeyemon: Later in the afternoon.
Frederick James: Uh, we—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it dark?
Frederick James: Yes. Just dark. The word—uh, we had a network, and, uh, the information really passed real fast. And, uh, we-we-we-we had a code that we used, uh, in case we had to really—somebody had to get out really fast.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: So the way he really got out of here was by, uh, uh, uh, by, uh, uh, hearse.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Going back—
Frederick James: In-in a casket.
Oloye Adeyemon: When they came back down the street, you know, after they had passed the house—
Frederick James: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - what did they do?
Frederick James: They came back by again, slowly. And when he got—when they got right in front of his house, uh, J. A. DeLaine picked up that shotgun and emptied that car—that shotgun, blew out the back window, shot many holes in the car.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they return fire?
Frederick James: No. No, sir. The only thing that-that-that-that-that was seen was the smoke from the car gettin’ away. They did not—they moved out in a hurry.
Oloye Adeyemon: Took by so much surprise.
Frederick James: It was a surprise.
Oloye Adeyemon: They might not even known where the shots were comin’ from.
Frederick James: Well, the-the theory is, some people think that some of them got shot.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Frederick James: That some of them got shot either by the bullets or by flying glass—
Oloye Adeyemon: Glass.
Frederick James: - or something.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh, and that’s why they were so determined to get him—
Oloye Adeyemon: Afterwards.
Frederick James: - to get him extradited. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Afterwards.
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now-now, what happened that led people to believe some of them might’ve been wounded?
Frederick James: Well, uh, circumstantial evidence. I mean, anybody that tight—tightly packed in the car—
Oloye Adeyemon: In the car with that kinda damage.
Frederick James: - and with the deadly aim that J. DeLaine took.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh, and, uh, it was no question about—he-he-he said he knows he shot out the—shot out the-some windows—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Now—
Frederick James: - ‘cause he saw them.
Oloye Adeyemon: - once this happened, uh, was there an uproar? Was there—was-w, you know, what-what-what happened in the white community when this happened?
Frederick James: In the white community, there was indeed a-a terrible uproar to get him, to, uh, receive him. They tried roadblocks and everything that night—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - up and down the line. They start—
Oloye Adeyemon: Had they gone to his house looking for him?
Frederick James: Oh, yes. They went everywhere.
Oloye Adeyemon: He—I take it he left his house quickly.
Frederick James: Very quickly. He—the—uh, the—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where—how did he get out—do you know how he got away from the house?
Frederick James: No. That’s never told.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: That’s never told. The-the-the actual steps that were taken to get him, uh, in that casket—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - and on his way, uh, uh, to New York—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - uh, up, uh, there, which was then 301.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: But that—and that-that’s just—is just kind of—they-they-they were stopped. His car was indeed stopped.
Oloye Adeyemon: They hearse.
Frederick James: Yes. The hearse was stopped.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: And-and they were—they were stoppin’ everybody.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh, but, uh, but when they stopped his car they said, uh, “Is there anybody here?” They said, “Nope. Nobody but this body in here.” They said, “Well, uh, stop the car. Open the back.” They opened the back. Opened the back door of the hearse and, uh, there was the hearse. There was the casket, but they didn’t open the casket.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: They didn’t open the casket. But he was—it—the understanding was though, that he was posing in such a way that unless they really knew him—uh, if they had opened the casket—
Oloye Adeyemon: They wouldn’t’ve recognized him.
Frederick James: - they wouldn’t’ve recognized anything but a person in that casket. And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Holdin’ their breath.
Frederick James: That’s right. Holdin’ their breath with a lotta powder and stuff on his face.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: ‘Cause they had powdered his-his face and everything, had him made up—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - and had on a lotta cream and powder and stuff, so that he’d look unreal.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: But, uh, that’s the way that they got him out. And then, of course—
Oloye Adeyemon: They took him to Charlotte. Is that right?
Frederick James: - he got to New York—Hm?
Oloye Adeyemon: He first went to Charlotte.
Frederick James: No, no, no. Went-went straight to New York.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: He came back to Charlotte many years later.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: Uh, we have a bishop in our church by the name of Bishop D. Ward Nichols. Bishop Nichols was the bishop of, uh, the New York area at the time. And he had a very, very close relationship with the may—with the governor of New York, state of New York, Governor Harriman, Bishop Nichols did. And when, uh, Governor Timmerman of South Carolina insisted that, uh, “This man is a fugitive of justice and must be extradited.” uh, Governor Harriman was visited by Bishop Nichols.
And Bishop Nichols insisted to him that if you wanna assign this man a death sentence, you will send him back to South Carolina. It’s ju—if you wanna execute him. Because that’s exactly what’ll happen. There-there is no—he told him that there is no law enforcement system in South Carolina in place today that would be able to save him, and that they will execute him if he goes back. And Harriman, uh, would not and did [unintelligible 30:17].
During this time, uh, I was surprised last—just this year—when a scholar dealing with some of the papers that dealt with the South Caroliniana Society at the University of South Carolina, its last publication, they dealt with papers, I don’t know whether you’ve seen this or not, you may want to—that had to do with J. A. DeLaine. Have you seen that?
Oloye Adeyemon: I’ve heard about it, but was not able to get to [crosstalk 30:50]
Frederick James: Uh, in those papers, my wife—uh, these women keep involving me—my wife, uh, read them. I’m-I’m a life member of South Caroliniana Society, although I don’t go to meetings. But they had one of the letters there was a letter from me that was sent to the governor. Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Of South Carolina?
Frederick James: Yeah. And a letter also to-to, uh, to-to DeLaine while he was in New York. And I spoke of the importance of lifting this onus, uh, from his name. Uh, and they thought enough of that, uh, to, uh, to-to put that—to publish that letter—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - as part of this presentation that took place at the University of Sou-South Carolina in the spring.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand that—um, what was-what was the actual charge? I understand that that charge was only recently lifted, posthumously—
Frederick James: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the—a-at the state capitol.
Frederick James: Yeah. A-a-a fugitive from justice—he was a fugitive from justice, I think was—is-is, uh, fleeing to escape. Uh, I-I’m not as familiar with the law. Uh, you will get the answer to that question after while—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes.
Frederick James: - when you go to—with Matt Perry .
Oloye Adeyemon: But-but he, in a sense, was prevented from coming back to South Carolina for the rest of his life.
Frederick James: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Because of this case, this charge—
Frederick James: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that they had on the books.
Frederick James: That’s right. That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: What would you say about, uh—and I guess it would include, uh, the actions that you took—what would you say, uh, for people who did not know, uh, Reverend J. DeLaine and others who acted, including yourself? What would you say about, um, the ministers as well as others—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that risked their life in this way? Uh, what-what characterizes them? How were they different from so many others that—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - might have supported it, as you said, but weren’t prepared t-to risk their life?
Frederick James: Yes. Uh, that’s such an excellent question. Uh, I would characterize this man, uh, and some others like him, but maybe not to the extent of J. DeLaine, to be the epitome of courage and commitment. Uh, courage, uh, in the willingness to put his life on the line because you know it’s just almost impossible to keep from being killed by somebody who is determined to kill you. If they were determined enough, they would’ve—it-it-it-it would’ve cost him his life anyway. Uh, if somebody’s committed, I mean, is determined to take somebody’s life, uh, they will find a way. He’ll go on to New York, and they would’ve found a way to do it. Uh, and commit—
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand that he had people who were protecting him—
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - both when he was South Carolina who was al—who were al—they were almost like bodyguards.
Frederick James: Had to.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that that continued to be the case when he was in New York.
Frederick James: In New York. Had to.
Oloye Adeyemon: Constantly watching him.
Frederick James: Had to have, really. Had to have. Uh, and all—
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you think that would’ve been a deterrent as well—
Frederick James: [Unintelligible 34:16] That was a deterrent. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in terms of everyone bothering him?
Frederick James: That was-that was a major deterrent, major deterrent. Uh, and, of course, commitment in that it is so lonely. Uh, when other people are going along just to go along, uh, and not rocking the boat, uh, when-when-when, uh, when you know that you’re going against the grain of the status quo, uh, this calls for commitment.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Frederick James: Because you—you say, “Well, what’s the use?” You know, so-so many people say, “Well, what’s the use, really? Uh, I’m-I’m doing pretty good”—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Frederick James: - “and these people are not going to care all that much anyway. And why go through all of this to save their skin, when they don’t give you the credit anyway?” uh, jealous, uh, and et cetera. But some people like him and I. DeQuincey Newman. And, uh, in this state, I. DeQuincey Newman, somebody by the name of Matt McCollom, somebody like, uh, um, uh, Herbert J. Nelson, uh, like, uh, Hinton and-and-and others who, uh, who stood so tall.
Oloye Adeyemon: In closing, would you, uh, share with us, uh, your thoughts about how this story is bigger than just desegregating a single school district, or even just, uh, blacks having opportunity to attend the school of their choice around the country? Because there are many who will, uh, be interested in this story.
Frederick James: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: But it won’t feel it’s relevant to them, particularly young whites, particularly whites in South Carolina.
Frederick James: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did this—his efforts—uh, what effect did it have for everyone?
Frederick James: It is bigger than, um, than its localized, um, surroundings, uh, uh, in the sense that it has to do with constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. It has to do with justice. It has to do with what America stands for. It has to do with democracy. These are the underlying guarantors that you stand on. It’s either true or not true. It’s either democratic, or it’s not democratic. It’s either just, or it’s unjust, uh, applying to people of all groups, all shades, all economic brata—stratas. That’s the issue in the world context.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you very much for this interview. You’ve helped us a lot.
Frederick James: Well, thank you—
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 37:32]
Frederick James: - for finding me, and thanks-thanks to Miss Miller for stayin’ on my case until I made a call.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.
Description
This interview presents a detailed history of his life and various posts as a pastor and later bishop of the A.M.E. church. It also presents a unique view regarding the politics of segregation, including the registration of African Americans to vote in general elections and constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.
Credit
NPS
Date Created
07/19/2001
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