Shigeya Kihara

Transcript

Transcript

My name is Steve Haller I’m here in Monterey California at the home of Mr. Shigeya Kihara who was an instructor in the first class of the military intelligence service language school at the Presidio of San Francisco in 1941 and 42 thank you for having me here today Mr. Kihara. We plan on using this tape for the Presidio oral history project and expect to use it for research and education about the history of the Presidio. I understand that the National Park Service has your permission to retain all literary and property rights to this interview and make this tape for the purposes I just mentioned, is that correct.

Shigeya: That’s correct.

Steve Haller: Now we just were... discussing the availability of records that have to do with the M.I.S.L.S. [Military Intelligence Service Language School]. Could we talk about that again?"

Shigeya: "When Joe Harrington, the author of Yankee Samurai, began his work gathering materials and testimony for writing his Yankee Samurai, he went to the Navy archives in Washington D.C. to look into the possibilities of finding records of the hundreds of MIS men who served with each of the Marine Divisions in the Pacific campaign.  And he was told that since MIS men were borrowed from the Army that they were not true Marines and seamen, records of their service were not maintained.  And Joe Harrington was terribly disappointed, and this is one reason why he adopted the format of his book. He made it a personal narrative type of history and included the names of as many MIS men as he could possibly do in his book. And for this he's been criticized for writing nothing but a telephone directory.

At any rate, this month, January 1994 I got a telephone call from Mannie Goldberg who is a graduate of MIS and led three MIS teams in the Battle of Iwo Jima. Many of his MIS men went into the caves on Iwo Jima and he is proud of the fact that his men came out with over seven hundred Japanese, saving their lives and explaining to these soldiers that to die for the emperor was a good thing, but they could be of more help and service to the rebuilding of Japan. That sort of thing."

Haller: "That's interesting that someone's memory should go back to saving lives rather than taking lives in the War. I just had the pleasure of speaking with Colonel Thomas Sakamoto, uh, just two days ago, and one of the things he mentions that the MIS'ers felt proud of (something that didn't happen to him personally) but he also recalled an incident where a MIS graduate was very instrumental in saving a lot of lives on Saipan.

Shigeya: "Yeah. The technology, if you want to call it the technology, a means of fighting war, was cave flushing in World War II. Uh, and a young man by the name of Hoichi Kubo in Saipan is credited with starting the worst of these things. He stripped himself practically naked, left his sidearms, and had himself lowered into a cave in Saipan. And he rescued about fifty men and women, Japanese men and women, plus soldiers."

Haller: "That's right. Saipan, being Japanese territory, was one of the first areas where the battle rolled over a large number of Japanese civilians as well as military. Isn't that right?"

Shigeya: "Yes. A large number. And when the invasion started the rumor was that the United States soldiers would kill all Japanese soldiers, men and women. Many women and civilians, women carrying their babies or children, jumped off the cliffs by the thousands to assure death, preferring to commit suicide rather than be killed by the United States soldiers."

Haller: "Yeah. I remember reading about that and thinking how sad the part of history that it was. I should go back and say, you mentioned one thing about Harrington's book and I understand that you were a research assistant on that? Is that correct? [Haller repeats question]."

Shigeya: "Yeah. A committee was set up with Professor Roger Daniels, a noted historian and an authority on Japanese­ American internment. This was in the early 1970's. A contract was signed between Professor Daniels and MIS Northern California to have a proven writer, historian, do our story. But things did not gel well and along the way Professor Daniels had a heart attack. So that contract was negated and then MIS people began to look for other potential historians to write our story.  James Mitchener was approached. Barbara Tuchman, John Toland among others. But these writers, with well-known books, were not interested in doing a book that would have very little audience appeal in the United States.  Their readers numbered in the millions and like James Mitchener.

[Haller: "It's good to try though."]

Finally, Joe Harrington was contacted and then in January of 1977 we began working on finding as many of the six thousand graduates of MIS as possible and setting up interviews all over the United States and in Hawaii and even in Japan for Joe Harrington to interview people, to gather materials, photographs, tape recordings, etc. as basic material for the writing of this book."

Haller: "You mentioned that one of the reasons for relying heavily on interviews was the lack of official documentation about the subject. But I do want to add that I think it's also one of the great strengths of the books, because it makes it very personal and lively, and it also relates it very well to the human aspect of military history."

Shigeya: [Further discussion about this book. Yankee Samurai was published in 1979 and received a few small reviews. There were numerous responses from MIS men themselves.  As he had served as a research assistant, Kihara himself received a lot of criticism for the quality of the book. MIS people wanted a more rigorously academic treatment of the subject. Harrington was angry about the Navy's destruction of MIS records. Even in the Division histories there is little mention of their role. Kihara explains once again why Harrington thus wrote the kind of book he did. Still to this day many MIS people are critical of the book. There is a movement afoot by Hawaiian MIS graduates to have an official Department of Army authorized history of the group. A historian has received a research grant to write this more formal history.) [Ed. note: As of Fall 1994 Dr. James McNaughton of the Defense Language Institute is working on this study.)

Haller: "That would be great if it comes to pass; I hope it does. I imagine that some of the same motivations that led the Navy to destroy the records pertained, although perhaps in lesser degree, to Army units. Because MIS'ers in that case were attached and were not an integral part of the fighting forces. Do you think that's true?"

Shigeya: "I doubt that very much. Because in the Army they were attached as intelligence personnel. And they were attached to mostly divisions and armies and they performed a very valuable service. Their assignments as language detachments, to the different divisions, regiments and armies would surely be a matter of record. Actually, just the digging of that information and writing that they were attached and so forth is not that important. The important factor is the extent to which they were utilized at different levels. For instance, in the invasion of Okinawa, MIS language teams, and their leaders, were called in to advise the division commanders prior to invasion because our MIS men who invaded Okinawa, consisted of people who had grown up in Okinawa.  And they knew the people, they knew the layout of the land, and they could provide very important information to the division commanders, prior undertaking their amphibious landings.  And incidentally, two brothers who participated as intelligence people ---I forget the name of the division, I think it was the 27th--­ Takejirc and his younger brother Warren Higa are still living in Hawaii. And they did a lot of cave flushing and they are credited with an enormous number of people who they were able to surrender from their caves. That sort of information is of human interest plus military historical importance in describing or telling the true history of the MIS in World War II."

Haller: "That's very true. That's very true. Perhaps we could go back a little bit and sort of steer the conversation around to your particular involvement in MIS and your first-hand involvement. And maybe to do that we ought to get a little background on what, on your family background and history. Maybe we could start, go back to that subject."

Shigeya:   "Well, my father was born in the 4th year of Meiji, which is 1872. And he was born in an impoverished section of Japan in the upper hills of Hiroshima.  And at the age of eighteen he signed a contract to work on sugar plantations on Maui and he came over to Lahaina, Maui at the age of eighteen, eighteen which places him in Hawaii around 1890. Then he probably served out the two terms, three-year contracts. Two three-year contracts as a sugar plantation laborer in Maui then he came to San Francisco. And, uh, the enterprise that he started was not very successful and he decided he'd try farming. And he moved to Suisun in California and went into farming.  But he was not successful.  And I was born there, and I grew up, went to school in a small town called Dixon which is now very close to u.c. Davis. Then my father failed in farming, so he started a small grocery store in Dixon and he failed in that. Then he decided he'd come back to the Bay Area and packed up our belongings in our old Ford truck and we crossed the Carquinez [Straights] on the old ferry and came to Oakland. And he started a restaurant on 7th Street in Oakland and there was a diphtheria epidemic in Oakland at that time and my sister caught that diphtheria and the health department closed up the restaurant and so my father had to give that up. Then he started gardening. This is what he did for many years.

At that time in California the prejudice towards Japanese was very strong. The State of California has a history of having been one of the most discriminatory and prejudiced states in the whole history of the fifty states of the United States. One example, in the late lBOO's the Chinese and Japanese people were prohibited from becoming naturalized by law. And so my parents could never become naturalized and then when my father came to San Francisco when he suffered assaults by Caucasians. In 1905 there was a San Francisco School Board incident and then in 1913, I believe, an anti-Asian Land Law passed by the legislature against Japanese nationals purchasing land primarily for agricultural purposes. Then in 1920 there was an Anti-Alien Lease Law preventing Japanese from leasing land for agricultural purposes. Then in 1924 the United States Congress passed the Exclusion Act [Immigration Act of 1924] preventing the immigration of Japanese to the United States.

So, all during my growing years I heard about these different actions. Then on a personal basis, people in the California valleys running into signs saying 'Japs, Keep out!' That sort of thing. Then when I started school at Lincoln Grammar School in Oakland, I studied at that Lincoln Elementary School for six years in segregated classes.

Chinese and Japanese students were in one class. Then Caucasians who attended Lincoln Grammar School had their own first grade, second grade. And I didn't have a Caucasian classmate until I was in 7th grade.

Then in 1929 there was the Great Depression, conditions everywhere, United States, Japan, the whole world were bad. And college graduates, Caucasian graduates were in employment-seeking lines everywhere. Twenty-five million people in the United States were unemployed. And the situation regarding Japanese Americans for finishing their educations and getting jobs was dismal. And I went to college under these circumstances. Along the way my father developed gangrene in his large intestines, and he had to stop work for three years. I had to quit college and support the family for three years until he was able to get back to work again. Finally, I went to u.c. Berkeley, finished my work in Political Science and looked for a job. And no jobs anywhere.  And so I decided to go back to college and get a higher degree, it might come in handy.  So I went back to the University of California and got an M.A. in International Relations. Incidentally, in those days, there was no tuition at the University of California.  All you had to do was pay $25 a semester to register which gave you hospital privileges and other minimal rights. And I worked each summer in the fruit ranches in California up and down the hills of Vacaville, along the Delta, Sacramento River, down in Modesto and other places and earned a couple of hundred bucks and went back to school. All I had to do really was make $25 for tuition and buy second-hand books for, oh about $10-15 dollars for a whole semester of study. Buy a pair of jeans and a pair of shoes and a shirt and I was ready to go for a whole semester.  So, I'm grateful to the State of California and the opportunity of having, been able to go to college for minimal expenses.  Now, there's talk about the costs of a college education running up to $100,000 a year. In those days there was no tuition, and I got an education.

But anyway, because there were absolutely no economic opportunities for anybody in those years, 1938, 1939, 1940, my father, he was an ardent Japanese nationalist, hated the prejudice and discrimination that he received in the United States. Japanese people are very proud. Their highest values are honor, loyalty, justice which are transmitted down from the parents, down to us Japanese Americans. And I believe the motivation of Japanese Americans to fight for America and do what they did, both in Europe and in the Pacific stems from Japanese values rather than American values. In public school we learned about freedom, liberty, justice and equality but when the War started Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 and it was a total violation of our civil rights, the principles of the constitution.  And at this juncture in Japanese American history, I believe that we reverted to the teachings that we received from our parents: honor, pride, dignity. Don't bring shame on your family, your people, that sort of thing.

So, going back to my attempts to find work after graduation and after getting my master’s at u.c. Berkeley, ... I said there's no jobs for anybody, no opportunity. The only thing that we could do was to do gardening, or to work in the produce markets or work in art goods shops along Grant Avenue in San Francisco. And even if you could get a job, you'd be lucky to get a job that would pay fifty dollars a month.  So, my father said, 'Why don't you go to Japan and see if you can learn enough Japanese and with your English education find a job with say Domei the Japanese press organization. Go into the foreign office or in the consular service, utilize your English, plus any Japanese you might be able to learn and find a career in Japan.  So, I said,'Ok.

Haller:    "Had you much exposure previously to Japanese culture in your home?"

Shigeya: "Absolutely."

Haller:    "You had?"

Shigeya: "Yes. Neither my father nor my mother ever learned sufficient English to read the newspapers or books. 

End of Tape 1, Side l

Shigeya: "Of course it was kitchen-type Japanese. Get up, have your breakfast. Do this, do that. Don't do this, don't do that. That sort of thing. And I remember my mother teaching me the alphabet; she could do that. So, I learned the alphabet, to read and write the alphabet at home when I was about two and half or three years old I guess.

Then at the same time she taught me how to read and write rudimentary Japanese, the hiragana and the kana which are syllabaries of the Japanese language. Then she told me stories of the forty-seven Ponin, the disgrace of the Lord of Ako and how he was forced to commit suicide for violating rules of behavior in Tokyo. And the clan and the country of Ako was abolished. And his followers disbanded and met in secret for one year and took revenge one year later. And killed the person that caused this disgrace of the Lord of Ako.

And the story of the soga, brothers, stories of General Nogi and stories of Admiral Togo and that sort of thing. Then my father was active in community affairs, and he was instrumental in setting up Japanese language schools in Oakland. And so from the time I started first grade in grammar school, after each day in public school, I went to Japanese language schools. Then, all through my elementary school days and high school days I went to Japanese language school. But the type of Japanese language I received was more or less along traditional Japanese language teaching as was conducted in Japan.  And it proceeded from simple stories in elementary and high school textbooks, and it proceeded on to literary type. And the vocabulary, the grammatical constructions, the different sentences and the themes of the different stories in the Japanese language textbooks were not scientifically developed. And I could read Japanese high school texts about different subjects that were of no practical use whatsoever in everyday life!

I couldn't read a Japanese newspaper. And I couldn't discuss economics, politics, international relations at an adult level. And so, I decided that this is not getting me anywhere. I'm not going to get too far with this type of education so at the University of California I had a friend; his name was Masayoshi Morino who was good in Japanese. And I used to have lunch with him every day at the college and discuss everything from everyday weather to international relations and everything. And I told him about my problem with learning sufficient Japanese to be able to read and write on adult subjects. And he said, 'Well, why don't you write a letter or composition every day and let me look at it and then I'll make corrections and then you can see how that works.  So, I did that. When I went to Japan in 1940 I-"

 Haller: "Excuse me, I didn't mean to interrupt but when you did go to Japan, that was after your university education?"

Shigeya: "Yeah."

Haller: "Got it."

Shigeya: "I finished my work for my master's in December 1939 and then I looked for work... this is in the depth of the Depression, and nobody had any work. And so, I helped in the family grocery store (at 1000 Wood Street in Oakland] after graduating from the graduate school at the University of California. Then in September of 1940 I tell my father, 'Ok, there's not much doing in America at this time. There's no work for anybody. I'll go to Japan and see if I can learn enough Japanese to work for a Japanese firm."

Haller: "And what was it like for you in Japan?"

Shigeya: "That is another story.

Haller: "We have lots of tape.

Shigeya: "Pardon me?"

Haller: "[Slight chuckle] We have lots of tape.

Shigeya:"[Pause] When I landed in Japan in, I believe it was early October 1940, I had to go through customs. And I'd intended, I'd promised my father that I'd stay in Japan for two years. So, I had brought different things with me: books, typewriter, things that I felt that I would need for a two-year stay. And when I went through customs at Yokohama the Japanese customs people had a list of book titles and one book I had was Inside Asia by John Gunther. And they opened it to a certain page and with a razor they just out all mention of John Gunther's experiences and comments on Japan. And I said to myself, 'What is this? What kind of a country am I coming to?'

And then when I got permanent residence at a boarding house in Tokyo, all people living in Japan are required to report to what is known as a local police office. And I went there and this small bureaucrat, seedy-looking guy in a seedy­ looking suit, looked me over, looked at my papers and told me, 'Huh. You're a son of an emigrant, aren't you?' And I said, 'Yes, I am.' But that turned me off!"

Haller:  "He had a condescending tone?"

Shigeya: "Absolutely! Then other experiences like that turned me off. And I said to myself if I'm destined to be an object of prejudice, discrimination, and ridicule in life in the United States or in the country of my parents, Japan, I would prefer to receive prejudice and be discriminated against in the United States rather than to receive prejudice and discrimination from my own people in Japan. And so, my mind began to switch in that way. Of course, I don't believe from the very beginning that I had really ever decided that I would remain in Japan."

Haller: "Did you have family there...?"

Shigeya: "I had distant relatives way up in Hiroshima. And they were poor. And my father had not really maintained letter correspondence with them ever since he came to Hawaii as a young man. So even though I did visit Hiroshima I didn't have any addresses, names, and I didn't take the time to go up into the Hiroshima hills to look up my uncles and aunts and so forth. Then this individual that I mentioned, who helped me study Japanese, Masayoshi Morino, born and raised in Alameda, California, graduate of U.C. Berkeley and a Ph.D. in Political Science at u.c. Berkeley, was in Toyko and I roomed with him at the same boarding house in Tokyo.

He got a job with the foreign office, in the information office of the foreign office in Tokyo and as the conditions, the relations between the United States got from bad to worse I would go to the foreign office, the information office with him, Morino, and I had access to different English publications, newspapers, magazines and so forth.

And I was able to look at the situation in Japan and in Asia and in Europe from a viewpoint that was closed to normal Japanese people, because the Japanese newspapers, even the English-editions of the Japanese newspapers were all slanted towards Japan, and anti-United States and anti-England. The different restrictions that were being placed on Japanese­ American trade in July of 1941, as an example, because Japanese armies marched from China into French Indochina, the United States abrogated the commerce and trade treaty signed by Townsend Harris, way back in, I believe, in 1958 (sic]. The United States abrogated that treaty and forbid the sale of scrap steel to Japan, forbid the sale of oil and that sort of thing. I had a better picture of what was happening than the average Japanese citizen and I said to myself, I better get out of here before War breaks out and I get conscripted into the Japanese army and spend a lifetime marching all over China.

And so, I wrote my parents, and I said the situation in Japan is bad. The common people are donating metal, pots and pans and different things, to the army to use to manufacture guns and that sort of thing. And my mother wrote back and said Papa says that if you come back to the United States before you stay two years as you promised you will have no home in the United States. I said, ok, and I sold my typewriter, shoes, overcoats, things like that and bought a third-class ticket on the Tatsuta Maru of the Japanese shipping line, the main line from Japan to the United States and started to come home. And got past Hawaii, ok, then approached the coast of California and there were many many people who were fleeing Japan at that time, Nisei like myself. And then Caucasians who had escaped the wars in Europe through (Russia and Manchuria]

(End of master tape]. 

Haller: "...go ahead, why don't you pick it up (the story]?"

Shigeya: "And we all celebrated, we're going to hit San Francisco and we'll be free of the troubles of Japan. Then the next morning we got up and the sun was on the wrong side of the boat! In the middle of the night, the captain of the Tatsuta Maru in communication by radio with Japan had received instructions that the ship was to turn back. There was a million dollars’ worth of raw silk in the hold of the Tatsuta Maru. And because the trade agreement treaty between United States and Japan had been abrogated there was a strong possibility that the ship and its cargo would be impounded in San Francisco. So, in the middle of the night, the ship had turned around and was going back to Japan. So, we formed a committee and went up to the captain and we asked for a rowboat so that we could be placed in rowboats, and we'd take our chances reaching San Francisco. The answer was 'No.' In the meantime, we saw Matson Liners sailing in an opposite direction. We argued that if the captain would radio the Captain of the Matson that we could be lowered into rowboats and we could be transferred. 'No way, can't do that.' At any rate, for one week, we cruised up and down the California coastline, turning back, turning in. Finally, the ship sailed into San Francisco harbor and docked. And at that time my brother and my future wife Aya were at the dock and my brother said, 'Papa wants you to come home. You're not kicked out of the family.' (Laughs]

I said, 'Ok' and I came home."

Haller: "That must have been then what July or August you're talking about, 1941?

Shigeya: "Yeah, it was late July I believe or early August of 1941. Then the newspapers were full of the progress of the war in Europe and in Poland in France, and the fall of France and that sort of thing. Then stories of how Japan was marching through French Indochina and taking city after city. And you could just sense that something was going to happen in the relations between the United States and the war in Europe and the different things that were happening in the Far East.

Then in September 1941

[tape is again paused]

I received a call from the office of Professor Florence Walne who was chairperson of the Oriental Department at the University of California. I had taken a couple of courses in Japanese from Professor Walne, undergraduate course and even a graduate course, and the information was that the United States Army was looking for Japanese language instructors. Lieutenant Colonel Weckerling G-2 at the Fourth Army, Presidio of San Francisco, [brief interruption as Mrs.Kihara asks if the two men need more coffee]. Anyway, I said, 'I have received no training in Japanese in Japan in a Japanese high school or university. I'm not qualified to teach Japanese!' But she insisted that I go. 'Just go and get an interview and see what happens.' And so I went, to meet, Lt. Colonel Weckerling, G-2 at the Fourth Army. And Professor Walne had sent the colonel a very fine letter of reference. And I talked to the colonel for about a half hour. He didn't test me in my Japanese, he just depended on the very laudatory letter of reference that Professor Walne had written to him. And he said, 'Fine, you'll hear from me in a week.'"

Haller:    "Was this conversation held at the Presidio then?"

Shigeya: "Yes. At the office of the colonel, second story, Fourth Army Headquarters. And within a week I got a letter saying that the United States Army would like to offer you a position as instructor of Japanese at such-n-such salary; I believe it was $175 a month. And I will inform you when you are to report to work.  And I got this information on the 1st of October,"

Haller:    "This is your first real job out of college then?"

Shigeya: "Yes. And I might say at the University of California alone there were at least 100 Kibei-type Japanese Americans who knew ten times more Japanese than I did. But all the rumors, the stories going around in the Japanese communities, in the California, San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, were that the army was looking for Japanese language instructors in order to serve as spies for the United States Army against individuals in the Japanese communities. And the Kibei were absolutely reluctant to apply for a job; none of them, very few of them would apply."

Haller: "So how did that affect your decision?"

Shigeya: "So, the Army was desperate: they were going to start a school and then they needed instructors, and the qualified individuals were not applying. And so, they appealed to the University of California and Professor Walne got in touch with me and then I got there. And fortunately, Colonel Weckerling did not test me. If he had pulled out a Japanese military textbook and asked me to read and translate, I wouldn't have been able to do it! Uh, at any rate, on October the 1st, 1941, I reported to Colonel Weckerling. Went upstairs to the second floor, the headquarters building at the 4th Army, Presidio of San Francisco and he said, 'Come with me, we'll go downstairs, and we'll meet the rest of the staff, the teaching staff. And we went downstairs to a basement room of the 4th Army, absolutely bare, not even a table, a chair, or anything. Just an old-fashioned orange crate made of wood with two compartments. And on top of the orange crate there was a set of textbooks, and dictionaries, and so-called Naganuma readers developed by Professor Naganuma for use in training of United States Army and Navy assistant attaches at the embassy in Tokyo. This type of language training had been conducted for years by the United States government as a consequence of the Boxer Rebellion of 1900, when the Boxers imprisoned or surrounded the foreign legation in Peking and the United States and the various countries---France, England and so forth---had to come to the rescue of the legation. And Japan participated in this. Ever since that international incident in China the United States felt that it was necessary to train American military personnel in the Chinese and the Japanese languages. And among the prominent who graduated as Japanese language students in Tokyo were General John Pershing, General Strong (later G-2 for the early years of President Roosevelt's administration) and General Maxwell Taylor."

Haller: "That's right, I do recall that. And then among other people that served in Japan as attaches in the embassy (am I correct?) that both Kai Rasmussen and John Weckerling?"

Shigeya:   "Right. And so, these former assistant attaches in the Tokyo, independent of at that time there was Carl Dusenbury, Rufus Bratton and also a guy by the name of Moore. Then there was a person by the name of Pettigrew. There were at least four who were attached to the general staff of the army in the Pentagon. And naturally, they got reports constantly from people in Japan and who had graduated from these courses and were stationed here and there.  And Captain Kai Rasmussen, had finished the school in Tokyo and he was commander of the coast artillery at Fort Scott. And he was very very persistent in demanding that a school for military personnel in the Japanese language be established in order to be able to conduct intelligence against the Japanese. No one knows what efforts these four former Japanese language military attaches went through to get through their chief and the Chief of Staff of the Army and get permission to start a Japanese Language School.

This is one of the subjects that would be, subject of intensive study by a person who wanted to write a story on the MIS.

But, at that time, in the United States, the whole country was in disarray. Economic conditions were bad, the army, the military forces were way down. The populace was isolationist, and the attitude was Hitler wants to take over Europe, let him. It's none of our business. If Japan wants to take over Asia, let them. It's none of our business.

And of course, you know the history of that period. Roosevelt felt that to let England be defeated would really be a tremendous… Uh [blow to democracy in the world].

End 0f Tape 1.

Tape 2, Side 1

Shigeya:"...even the future of the United States. And he felt the same way about developments in Japan. And slowly but surely, he was able to get lend, lease, loan decrepit American destroyers to England and yet the American military was not strongly for intervention in Europe and United states, I mean in Asia. So, I can imagine the struggle that Dusenbury, Moore, Bratton and Pettigrew must have had to get their boss to push the General Staff to approve the establishment of a Japanese language school. In the two-hundred-year period of the United States military there had never been a foreign language intelligence school ever established.  Uh, and the idea of using Japanese Americans as students [sic] for this language school was just simply unthinkable! The sentiment in the whole country was that a 'Jap is a Jap!' You're born a Japanese and you're a Japanese. Japanese Americans can't be trusted was the attitude.  And Rasmussen got TDY [temporary duty] orders from the Pentagon to travel up and down the training camps in the United States. There were about three thousand Japanese Americans in training as a result of the December 1940 draft of American citizens into the military.

And Colonel Rasmussen, I can still see his face, and I can hear him talk. He was born in Norway, a Dane, in Denmark. His English was very strongly accented by Danish speech.

And in all my years, forty years of contact with him, I never heard him talk Japanese."

Haller: "Ohh. I'm just wondering, did he speak Japanese with a Danish accent? [laughs]"

Shigeya: "I'm afraid he couldn't speak too well. But anyway, he insisted on setting up a school. And he got TOY orders from the Pentagon in the Army to go up and down the coast. And he personally interviewed over three thousand Nisei and Kibei in training, different places. And to his dismay, he found that only about three percent of Japanese­ Americans were sufficiently knowledgeable in the Japanese language to perform military intelligence, in the language. And he later reported that only about ten percent of Japanese Americans were capable of being quickly trained to bring them up to intelligence level capabilities. In his travels he interviewed PFC John Aiso at (stops to think] at Camp Haan in Riverside and he pinpointed John Aiso to become the Chief Instructor. And he also pinpointed PFC Arthur Kaneko to become instructor. At any rate, Colonel Weckerling brought me downstairs to this empty room and we went through the process of introducing ourselves."

Haller: "These four staff members were there...?"

Shigeya:"Aiso, Akira Oshida, Art Kaneko and myself. Then on this empty orange crate there were seven Naganuma readers. There were Japanese to English dictionary, English to Japanese dictionary, a dictionary of naval terminology, a Chinese character Kanji dictionary, a huge book, that thick. Then Cresswell's military terminology dictionary. Cresswell was a graduate of the Tokyo school and he had written a dictionary of military terminology from Japanese to English and from English to Japanese. It was a tremendous help in our efforts to create text materials for the teaching of our students. Then there was a copy of Sakusen Yomurei which is a book on Japanese training manual."

Haller:  "A military training manual?"

Shigeya: "A Japanese army military training manual. Sakusen Yomurei, a 'Manual of Operations' you might say. And there was a book called oyo Senjutsu, which means applied tactics. Then there was a United States training manual. The title I believe was Japanese military forces and it explained in English with photographs and sketches and so forth the organization of the Japanese army and the organization of the Japanese navy. And it had a section on the Japanese air force. And that was it.

And after the introductions were finished Colonel Weckerling said, 'Ok, let's pack these books in my car and we'll go down to your school. And I guess it was John Aiso and Art Kaneko and then Akira Oshida followed in my car, and we left the manicured green lawn, tree-lined streets, or the Presidio proper. And then we went toward the Bay, crossed some railroad lines, and there was this huge empty area. And Alcatraz in the distance there, Mount Tampalpais in the distance there. The [Golden Gate Bridge] to the left. The area is or was completely different from what it is today with all kinds of buildings and roads and fences and so forth that you see in the Presidio of San Francisco today. There was nothing' there. Just this one abandoned, empty unpainted crusty-looking corrugated tin building. And the colonel drove up there, and [we] followed him and he opened the door. And uh there was a Sergeant Peterson, a tall lanky regular army sergeant there and a Warrant Officer Schneider. These were to be the administrative staff of the new school. And then there were a couple of carpenters banging around, creating classrooms along the north side of the airplane hangar, creating an office for the commander of the school, of the executive office of the school. Then one, two, three classrooms. Then toward the rear of the building they were creating a sort of a living space for the anticipated sixty students, triple deck bunks, I mean beds and so forth.

And we walked in there, there wasn't a table there wasn't a desk but there were two empty United States Army cots, sleeping cots, with nothing on them, just bare springs. And that was it.11

Haller: "That was it? Two bare cots!"

Shigeya: "Two bare cots, a couple of carpenters banging around and our administrative staff, Sergeant Peterson and Warrant Officer Schneider. Then Weckerling said, 'This is your new school.' He said, 'In two weeks’ time, the date was the 15th of October 1941, in two weeks’ time sixty students will report for Japanese language intelligence training.' And he said, 'Be prepared with sufficient textbooks, teaching materials, course of instruction, a curriculum, everything, to start your training. And this is the first time in two hundred years in American military history that a foreign language instructional course was to be established in any language.... I have never seen or heard of any letter from the Pentagon, or anything written by Colonel Weckerling or Captain Rasmussen describing what the objectives of the course would be, what the courses should consist of, reading, writing, Kanji, interpretation, grammar, geography, whatever. I've never seen anything.

The Colonel, 'in two weeks’ time sixty students will report, be ready to start instruction.' And then he turned on his heel and left. Got in his car and went back to his office. And neither John Aiso or Aki Oshida or Private Kaneko nor I had had any kind of training as teachers, had never taught Japanese as a language to anybody. We just stood there and looked at each other for a couple of minutes and then John Aiso took charge.

He was a mature person, graduate of Brown University, Harvard Law School. He had taken courses in Japanese law at Chuo University in Tokyo. And had been a chief legal officer for the British Tobacco Company in Mukden, Manchuria. I believe it was in 1940 that he became sick, I believe it was with hepatitis or something like that, and he wrote to his family and said, 'I'm sick, I'm not able to work. I don't know how long I'm going to be sick.' Explained his condition and his mother wrote back and insisted that he come back to the United States to recover. But he wouldn't. So, his mother, I never met her, but John described her to me, she was a small woman, she bought steamship tickets in Los Angeles and sailed across the Pacific. Went to Japan and from Japan to Manchuria and walked into John's hospital room and said, 'You're corning home with me.' And she brought him back. As soon as he got back and recovered from his illness he got caught in the draft. And when he was drafted and reported after basic training to camp Haan, the Lieutenant Sergeant looked him over and said, 'Huh! Another goddamn lawyer! Just exactly what we need.' And put him into the motor pool. And k.p. duty and that sort of thing. And there he was interviewed by Captain Kai Rasmussen and pegged to be the Chief Instructor."

Well, he reported to the 4th Army one or two days before I met him on the 15th of October. Many years later John Aiso told me, I reported to Colonel Weckerling and the colonel told me I want you to become the Chief Instructor for the school. And John Aiso said, 'I respectfully decline this offer since my one-year service in the draft is about up, I'm getting on in my years, I want to get married, and I want to start my law service in Los Angeles. And he said that the colonel got up from his chair, came around to where John was standing at attention, and the colonel put his right arm on John's shoulder and said, 'John, your country needs you.' John said, 'How could I say no to that?'

It was really a cultural shock for John. He had suffered indignities, prejudice, discrimination, all through his life, as all of us did, Japanese Americans in California. He was elected student body President of Le Conte Junior High School in Hollywood. The parents, the parent-teacher association called emergency meetings and put pressure on the Principal to cancel student body activities in the school, temporarily, until John graduated. And so the principal called John in and said, 'The school, the parent­ teachers association has decided that there shall be no more student meetings and offices for the junior high school.' So, he was deprived of that opportunity.

Then in high school, in the senior year, the Los Angeles Times, I believe, and the American Legion sponsored debating contests with the final contest to be held in Washington

D.C. And John won, and the American Legion didn't want a 'Jap' to be a member of the California delegation to participate in a national contest. And so, they put pressure on John, and they told him, you’re going to be valedictorian of your graduating class, you are an honored and respected person at the high school here. But they, the authorities ... (chuckles) want a Caucasian to speak for Hollywood High School. And so, John was sent to Washington to coach the individual who was to be the speaker. And it was there in Washington D.C. that John had an opportunity to meet with the Japanese ambassador from Japan. His name was Matsudaira. And he met Matsudaira who arranged for John to be accepted at Brown as a student, Brown University. And he finished at Brown with the highest honors, and then he went to Harvard Law School.

Well anyway, John had gone through life with these bitter, bitter experiences, prejudice. And nobody had ever referred to the United States as 'John's country.' When Colonel Weckerkling said, 'John, your country needs you,' John told me, 'What could I do? I had to say, yes sir.' And so, he became Chief Instructor. He's a brilliant person. I believe he was the greatest Nisei who ever lived and served his community in the United States.

We had no experience, there were no models, there were no guidelines for the establishment of a Japanese Language Intelligence School. Nobody had any idea what to do. This is to be a first time, a rare and unique opportunity to create a school, to establish a school, to serve the United States Army. And the burden was on John's shoulder. It was his job to make or break and it could easily have been broken.

So, we all looked at the instruction materials and from that day, second day, third day, during that two weeks’ time of preparation, he ordered Sergeant Peterson and Warrant Officer Schneider, 'Go out on the post anywhere, everywhere and scrounge desks, chairs, whatever. Find an office that's capable of running off stencils. In those days, duplication by stencils was the only means of reproducing materials.

And he said, 'Get a bunch of stencils and a stylus and if you can scrounge a mimeograph machine for the office, get one, because we are going to have to do a lot of internal duplication. Fifty, sixty copies, maybe seventy copies of materials for use as instruction materials. And see if you can get some money from Colonel Weckerling so that I could go to the University of California bookstore and buy up dictionaries, grammars, whatever. Then to go to Stanford University and buy up all the supplies that they have. And then go to downtown San Francisco, there's a book shop in San Francisco called Goshado that sold Japanese books, dictionaries and stuff like that.' And so we went to these three locations and bought up everything they had.

Then ... Aiso ordered Mr. Schneider to find printers in downtown San Francisco who'd be able to duplicate the Naganuma readers in one hundred copies. And find out from Colonel Weckerling who might be able to help you to get contracts signed between the printers and the Army for doing this job. And make sure the textbooks are delivered as quickly as possible because the instructors have to study them in order to be able to teach, and sixty students are arriving in ten days.

And we got a jeep assigned to the office and I remember driving through the streets of San Francisco and going to the Japanese bookstore to buy books, to go to the printer who signed the contract to reprint the books and to bind them and so forth. Then using the United States Army training manual on Japanese military forces using the Sakusen Yomurei and Cresswell's dictionary of Japanese military technology, we began to organize a course in military Japanese.

Aki Oshida had a good clear handwriting, so his job was to cut stencils for all materials. The organization of the Japanese army, starting from the general staff to the way the Japanese army was organized in divisions throughout the country, then terminology from division to regiments, battalions, companies, all that terminology. Then the equipment of the Japanese army, the howitzers, the mortars, machine guns, light machine guns, rifles, carbines, and so forth. The tanks, the whole works. Then the Navy, the organization of the Navy, the nomenclature of the aircraft carriers, the battle cruisers and destroyers and so forth and all the Navy equipment, from the torpedos to submarines to depth charges and that sort of thing. And the Air Force: the Japanese Air Force at that time was still in the process of development as was the United States. And the production of the big bombers and zero fighters and that sort of thing was still in process of being done. So, whatever materials we could get our hands on, we began to write the military terminology part of the course.

Then we had to decide on what the daily program of instruction should be. And it was decided that we'd start with the readers, two hours of the readers every morning from eight until ten. Reading, because different from English, the Japanese language consists of characters and at that time it was decided that the sixty students who would report in would be classified into section one, section two and section three. Section one, they're almost all Kibei: they knew more Japanese than the instructors did.  But it was expected that we would take them through the readers.

We figured that they could do readers one, two, three in about one week. Then they go on to the more difficult texts. But the problem was not so much their Japanese but their ability to translate from Japanese into English, that's the problem with Kibei. They're good in Japanese but they're not so good in English.

So, we decided that we'd have readers, reading and writing and translation for two hours. And then since Chinese characters are so basic and so important to Japanese, that would be the third hour. One hour of Kanji. Quizzes, tests would be given every day on the Kanji assignment for the day. And for the top section, that meant about at least fifty or sixty kanji a day. Then there would be a two hour interval for lunch, the instructors to keep up their office work and preparation of examinations and so forth. And at one o'clock there would be translation from English into Japanese and the materials for that had to be developed for each of the three instructors for the three classes. Akira Oshida was a graduate of Meiji University in Tokyo; he was good in English and good in Japanese and so he was [?]  in section one

And then since Art Kaneko declined to become an instructor, Colonel Weckerling hired Mr. Tetsuo Imagawa. He was selling liquor in the valleys, a graduate of the University of California in economics but no job. He was a salesman for a liquor company. He came on and became the Chief Instructor for the second class, section 2. Then I, being the weakest in Japanese, was given Section 3. And the instruction materials for each of the classes, the examinations had to be prepared by the principal instructors. So, at one o'clock to two o'clock, the subject was English to Japanese translation, using the materials taught in the first few hours of the morning. The instructors would prepare, and hand write the materials for use at that class.

 Then at 2 o'clock conversation, and Thursdays there'd the third hour in there would be a class in Japanese interpretation. Then on Tuesdays and be instruction in Japanese grammar. Then the afternoon, from three to four, it was the readers again. next day's-

 The teachers [took their classes to the] lesson, do the reading, explain the Chinese characters and explain the grammatical constructions, the use of phrases, clauses and so forth in the standard Japanese sentence. And uh prepare the students so that in the compulsory evening study, two hours from seven to nine each night, the students wouldn't have to go through dictionaries, other references in order to be well prepared for the next day's lessons. The teacher would just hand carry them through. Then they would read and read so that they [practically managed the reading and translations.]

Haller: "So Mr. Kihara, we were talking on the last tape about the beginnings of the Intelligence School at the Presidio, and maybe we can begin to talk again about those first days."

Shigeya: "Well, under John Aiso's guidance we whipped out a course of study. And then made the contracts for the printing of the Naganuma readers in one hundred copies and then for the military aspect of our training, John Aiso and the faculty met every morning at eleven o'clock to continue the development of the materials. We took basically the United States manual on Japanese military forces and then translated that into Japanese using Cresswell's military dictionary, the two Japanese training manuals that were provided by Captain Rassmussen and this we did on a daily basis, just keeping one step ahead of the students as the material was presented to our students. Then the course of study consisted of six hours of classroom each day, plus two hours of supervised instruction from seven to nine in the evenings and four hours of examinations on Saturdays. The instructors of the school were all civilians, and nobody bothered to tell us about civil service regulations, that the normal working hour for the civil service was forty hours a week. But in our ignorance, we said, 'Yes sir, yes sir,' and reported for supervised evening study.  Each of the instructors came in twice a week, two nights a week, with the exception of Wednesday. And then we came in to conduct examinations for three hours on Saturday mornings.

And on November 1st school started. By that time a Major Joseph Dickey, also a recent graduate of the Tokyo Army Attache School came in as an executive officer stationed right there at the Crissy Field school building with Jorgensen and Schneider as Administrative Assistants. We welcomed sixty students, fifty-eight Nisei plus two Caucasian men who had some previous knowledge of Japanese. And we started instruction. It was a day-to-day struggle of keeping one step ahead of our students and providing the mimeographed materials, preparing English to Japanese translation materials each day for our students and then preparing examinations on Saturdays. It was a tremendous learning experience for all of us because none of us had any experience, had no guidelines, no methodology, no materials that we could refer to, to organize and conduct school. Course Colonel Weckerling and Captain Rasmussen stopped by practically every day, sometimes twice a day to see how things were going. And as John Aiso submitted his plans, his course of instruction, Weckerling approved or disapproved, suggested changes, almost on a daily basis."

Haller: "Now, during this time Weckerling continued to function as G-2 for 4th Army so he had a variety of other duties besides supervising-"

Shigeya: "Yes. He was a G-2 for the 4th Army. So with things getting hot in the Pacific area, I imagine his duties were quite involved there but he had a special mission from the Pentagon to organize and establish the school. So, he dropped by the office practically every day, twice a day, to see how things were going, to assure that there would be sixty copies of everything necessary for the training of our students. Sufficient copies of the Naganuma readers, sufficient copies of Japanese to English and English to Japanese dictionaries and that sort of thing.

And the school started. And we developed a routine, and pretty soon we found out that a number of our original students were not capable of keeping up with the course.

And so one by one these slower students were dismissed and sent back to infantry training. Of the sixty, I think, forty-five graduated.

Then on December 7th, a Sunday, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. on Monday, December the 8th, Colonel Weckerling and Major Dickey assembled the class, the school. Of course, everybody knew about it but the question was, Would there be any change in the operation of the school? It was brought to our attention that the school that had been established to meet a possible contingency was now a vital factor in the operation of the War. That students that had been studying for five weeks in the hopes that war would not break out now were faced with the reality that upon graduation they would be sent out to fight in fronts, to perform intelligence and we realized that our work was of vital importance to the United States. And we got down to work.

And other materials were introduced into the course of study. New courses had to be developed. Soon after Pearl Harbor, by ones and by twos ROTC students from different universities who were in the reserves form the University of California, University of Washington, all the universities in the Midwest and the East began to come in. And more instructors were needed. So, one by one new teachers were employed. Certain instructors were given specialties to handle. For instance, Tadashi Yamada was given the job of creating a Japanese geography course, the geography of Japan. The economic structure of the different prefectures in Japan, the climate, the topography and so forth for possible and eventual use by United States occupation forces in Japan."

Haller:    "Was that a part of the curriculum while you were at Crissy Field?

Shigeya: "Yea.

Haller:    "It was. Ok."

Shigeya: “These changes occurred after the War started. After the War started new officer students started to come in, had to employ new instructors. At that time, we employed Paul Tekawa and Tom Tanimoto who were newspaper reporters for Japanese newspapers in San Francisco. We employed Tadashi Yamada from the Guadalupe area. We employed Toshio Tsukahira, a graduate of UCLA in Japanese history. All of these people were educated in the United States and in Japan and were qualified instructors. And when the United States went on a war footing against Japan, then additional courses were introduced into the curriculum: geography for one, interrogation of POW's was introduced. Then since we would be handling captured documents, a course in sosho or grass writing was introduced. All Japanese soldiers maintain personal diaries and they write their daily page in the diaries in their own individual handwriting, not using strictly type like characters but broken down, what they call grass writing. And it's a special skill, a special art you might say, and it's taught in the Japanese high school and colleges. So that when our men went out off to the front and they got a hold of these personal diaries, they would be able to read them and translate them. So, a course in sosho was introduced. Incidentally, a principal text that we used for this course was a textbook on sosho written by General Strong, was also an assistant military attaché Japanese language student in Tokyo.

And so, over the years, during and after their four-year courses of study, some of these military attaches created study materials that were very important to teaching Japanese at MIS.

Then, in January of 1942, the selective service reclassified all Japanese Americans in the draft. They changed the classification of all Nisei from 1-A to 4-C. 4-C means 'enemy aliens.' And, in effect, the further drafting of Nisei Japanese Americans into the MIS was just, cut off."

Haller: "What is curious is that it was later reversed if I recall my history."

Shigeya: "Yea. Uh-hmm. I believe it was around this time that Colonel Pettigrew of that original Pentagon group in intelligence, formulated the idea of forming a Japanese American combat division. But along the way, after a survey was made, all the potential volunteers for this Nisei division, it was determined that the number of Nisei was insufficient. In nineteen forty-two, the average age of Japanese Americans was eighteen years old. In other words, very very young. And the total population of Japanese Americans in Hawaii and in the mainland were only about 260,000. That's a total: Nisei, men and women, and young men eligible for military service. So, it was cut down from division to regiment.

And then on February 19th, President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066.

Haller: "How did that affect you personally?"

Shigeya: "Uh, total confusion and disaster! There were fifty-eight students, plus by now, seven instructors and we would be individually affected by the internment. We were all residing and working on the Pacific coast. And the order read, 'All Japanese Americans, with no exceptions will be forced into the internment camps.' As the days and weeks passed relocation orders were issued and pasted on store windows, telephone poles, in all the Japanese communities up and down the coast. And one by one different communities, starting with Bainbridge [Island] up in the Northwest, began to receive orders to move to assembly centers and then eventually to the ten relocation centers.

My family, Japanese Americans in Oakland, were ordered to go to Tanforan. And the orders came out in March. Colonel Weckerling assured us that school would remain at the Presidio of San Francisco until the first class had graduated. That 11 the instructors would be protected from the relocation. My family, father and mother and brothers and sisters, and my wife's family, all prepared to move, getting rid of automobiles, refrigerators, business equipment... washers, dryers, presses, inventories in stores, farm equipment, tractors, everything. And it was total chaos.

We were lucky to get ten cents on the dollar for everything that we had to get rid of, because each individual going into the assembly centers and the relocation camps could only carry, could only bring what they could carry. One suitcase or one duffle bag or whatever they want to put in their packages. Nothing else. And I had a small grocery store run by my parents, my brothers, and we found that a Chinese person who would buy our business; it wasn't much of a business, maybe about forty to fifty thousand dollars total business income during the year. But I forget what we exactly sold our business for but the sale of the truck, all the equipment in the store, and our inventory. I think we sold it for a thousand bucks or something like that. Then our parents moved out and were placed in horse stall apartments in Tanforan. And one time and one-time only Colonel Weckerling got orders cut for my wife and myself to visit our families at Tanforan.

And by that time Captain Rasmussen was ordered by the War Department to find a new location for the school which he did. He traveled throughout the West and Midwest and dropped into see Governor Harold Stassen, governor of Minnesota in st. Paul and the Governor listened to Rasmussen and said, 'You've come to the right place. I personally guarantee that your students, your school will be welcome in Minnesota.'

And there was an abandoned old folks home at a place called Camp Savage, twenty-five miles south of Minneapolis. 'And I'll rent it to the Army for a dollar a year.' And then he said, 'I will call the Chambers of Commerce of Minneapolis, st. Paul, I'll have newspaper publishers and editors, the different lawyers, and the power structure in the Twin Cities and I will ask them to cooperate completely, to assure that the school will be welcome in Minnesota.' Then on the outskirts of Minneapolis, there was Fort Snelling, an old Indian fort that could provide administrative support for the new school, MISLS at Camp Savage. A commissary, a hospital, a transportation [department] and the use of trucks and so forth. And the facilities all over the State and Fort Snelling were made available to MISLS. And it created a situation whereby as soon as the first class graduated from Crissy Field, there could be a one-month interval between graduation time and for the training cadre of ten students and the civilian instructors could move to Minnesota and start the new school there.

The whole operation, the internment of all our families, the instructors and their students, nobody was permitted to go on leave to assist their families to close up farms, businesses or whatever was permitted."

Haller:    "It was not permitted you say?"

Shigeya: "It was not permitted. And we found out that we were going to go to Minnesota and already all Japanese­ Americans in California, Oregon and Washington and Alaska [were] in assembly camps. And they were getting ready to transfer them to the permanent relocation camps. So the Army decided that the civilian instructors who would be driving from California to Minneapolis, Minnesota, would need protection. And so, each of the instructors was given an Army escort. All the ROTC students started to come in after Pearl Harbor, were not in the first class and they were not ready for intelligence duty in the War. And so John Aiso and his wife, myself and my wife were escorted by Captain Eugene Wright who drove in their car, Mrs. Wright and little Jerry.

So, a caravan of two cars drove from San Francisco to Reno to Ogden to Yellowstone then through the Dakotas then down to Minnesota and the Wrights really looked after us. At a certain restaurant, I believe it was in Fargo, North Dakota, some people in a restaurant where we had our dinner kept on staring at us. And Mrs. Wright got very angry, and she went up to them and shouted practically to them, 'What are you looking at? Well, my husband is an officer in the United States Army and John Aiso and I and our wives are working for the United States government. They're working for the United States. What's your problem?' And that sort of thing.

And then another amazing, well not amazing but interesting thing happened to another group. There were two Chinese ROTC students who came into the program at Crissy Field.

One was Robert Pang from Hawaii, another was Won Loy Chan who graduated from Stanford, and they came to the school, and they were escorts for about four instructors. And they were at a restaurant in Pocatello, Idaho. And it was reported that that there was a party of Japanese travelling with two officers in American uniform. And the sheriff came and didn't question the Japanese instructors, but they questioned the two Chinese officers in American uniform, and they said 'Are you bona fide American officers? Let's see your papers?' So, Chan and Pang showed them their identification and travel orders and the sheriff said, 'We're going to have to verify this.' And so they telephoned the Presidio of San Francisco. They were assured that Chan and Pang were bona fide American military officers and that they were escorting Japanese American instructors from San Francisco to Minnesota. And so, they were released. And that's been a subject of lots of laughter: Japanese­ Americans in Idaho were at that time very suspect. But the instructors were not questioned but the officers were [chuckles].

Anyway, we got to Minnesota and Camp Savage. This place in June was a sea of waving grass. It was a summer home for youths and then it was also a home for homeless men, but the camp had been closed for some time. And one of the operations at camp savage was [as a] manufacturer of mattresses, something productive to do for the homeless men. And in this big warehouse there were hoboes living there and there were cockroaches and fleas and lice, filthy. So, our ten best-"

End of Tape 2

Tape 3,

Shigeya: "enlisted men were ordered to clean out the place, drag all the mattresses out, put them in a big pile, pour kerosene on them and burn them. And then fumigate the mattress factory which later became the faculty office at Camp Savage. The faculty grew at Camp Savage by leaps and bounds. Each successive class was larger than the proceeding one. So we started with sixty students at the Presidio of San Francisco. By the time school closed in 1946 at Fort Snelling, there were about two thousand students and about 165 to 170 instructors.

So, we took over Camp Savage and the enlisted instructors had to clean out the warehouse and cut the grass, clean out the classrooms and make offices. And on the first of June, 1942, about two hundred and fifty students reported in.

These were students on the original list prepared by Colonel Rasmussen in 1941. And also added volunteers for the school from the different assembly centers and relocation centers."

Haller: "Since you continued at the Language School until at least May, the Language School at Crissy Field rather... and the evacuation began in February, you must-"

Shigeya: "The executive order-"

Haller:  "The executive order was issued-"

Shigeya: "Was signed on the 17^th of February, then they had to set up administrative centers for conducting the relocation. And the first movement of Japanese Americans into assembly centers happened in Bainbridge up in (Washington]. Then followed by Terminal Island in Los Angeles. And these began to occur during the months of March and continued until the entire Pacific Coast was evacuated of Japanese."

Haller: "Well what I was driving at was that you and your wife must have been among the last Japanese Americans still [in the Bay Area]."

Shigeya:" In March, April and May, when I left for work from Oakland and left my wife behind, she was the only Japanese American, really Japanese American in all of (the East Bay]. And over in San Francisco where ... Mrs. John Iso and Mrs.

Yamada and other people, they were the only Japanese­ Americans, free Japanese Americans in San Francisco there. And uh-"

Haller: "How did ... you get to work at that time?"

Shigeya: "Oh, I had an automobile and I drove each day. And my parents, my family moved out sometime in March and the new Chinese owners came into run the grocery business, but arrangements were made so that my wife and I could continue to live upstairs in the residential part of the store until we moved out around the beginning of May. And uh by that time we knew that we were going to move to Minnesota and arrangements were made for that including escort services by Army officers. And the movement of our household goods was (accomplished]. The transfer company came and took everything, and we borrowed a mattress from the new Chinese owners of the grocery store, and we slept on that for about a month until we were ready to move.

So, it was a hectic period. on night duty at the Presidio, quite often there would be air raids. There was a tremendous air of hysteria and confusion, and the 4th Army was changed from the 4th Army to Western Defense Command. And there were rumors of Japanese submarines that were lurking off the coast and that there were Japanese aircraft off the coast, that would raid the large cities, Los Angeles, San Francisco. Practically every other night there would be an air alert and then there'd be a complete blackout in San Francisco. And everybody would put up blankets on their windows and put on their lights inside and do whatever they had to do.

And at the Presidio, until the 'all clear' signal went off, I had to stay with my students until about eleven or twelve o'clock at certain times! Then the 'all clear' signal would be given and then I'd drive home across the bridge. And at the bridge, on both sides of the bridge there were areas with signs 'All Oriental people stop to receive authority or permission to cross the bridge.' And so Filipinos, Chinese, Japanese were all forced to stop and show their i.d. papers. Chinese people had a 'I am a Chinese' on their windshields and everything but they were stopped anyway. And then I had my 4th Army pass, so I had no problems at all.

In fact, one night, late at night driving home from San Francisco, was late, and all of a sudden I heard a patrol officer sounding a siren. And we were chased, about six or seven cars, and then we were all forced to stop in a convenient position, as soon as we got off the bridge. And the officer came and he [was) writing tickets for different cars and he came to me and said, 'Can I see your identification?' So, I pulled out my 4th Army pass and he stepped backwards one step and he saluted, and 'Yes sir!

You may proceed!' [Laughs] stuff like that."

"So, our students at the Presidio on the weekends, Saturday afternoons and Sundays, they were in the habit of going into downtown [San Francisco) to eat Japanese food, Chinese food, visit the YMCA and look up friends and so forth. So, when the Japanese all moved out they had no place to go. And they were not permitted to leave San Francisco at all. They were restricted, a curfew was applied, all Japanese­ Americans could not leave their house, be on the streets after dark and that sort of thing. And the security at the Presidio was increased. And Mr. Tekawa and Mr. Tanimoto who lived in downtown San Francisco used to leave the Presidio by a different gate, a gate different from the Main Gate on, I guess, it's Lombard Street or something like that. They left from another exit and went over the hill to J-Town where they had apartments. And Tanimoto and Tekawa drove from the school over to this gate where there was a sentry there, young kid, young draftee private or something, and he saw these two Japanese in a car, leaving the Presidio and he was nervous, and he drew his 45. [He said] 'Leave the car!' [Kihara chuckles] And he said, 'Keep your hands up! Use one hand to reach into your coat, get your i.d., put them on the ground, step back three or four steps. Then with a shaky hand he went and picked up the i.d. and recognized that they were bonafide employees of the Army and he finally calmed down. 'Ok, you can pick up your passes and you can leave.' And Tanimoto and Tekawa said, 'Boy, I was sure we were gonna get shot!' [Kihara laughs)" 

Haller: "It sounds like a frightening experience    what kinds of relationships did you have with the students was it... strictly a student to instructor relationship or did you get to

Shigeya: "Oh, it was a very very close, very friendly [relationship]. I was not qualified to be teaching Japanese. I could teach the lower classes because I knew a little bit more than they did but I would keep up every day. But on evening study, supervision, I had to go through all of the classes, from the top to the bottom, both at Crissy Field and at Fort Snelling. But the students in the upper classes who knew much much more Japanese than I, never tried to embarrass me by asking me, for instance, using their textbooks or teaching materials and asking me a question about this or that. And there were many many things that I was ignorant about, regarding the Japanese language and whenever I didn't know the answer I'd tell my students, 'I don't know the answer to this but I'll tell you tomorrow.

I'll go back to the faculty room and get the answer from my colleagues and I'll have the answer for you the next day.' And I never had any problems whatsoever from my students. They were very respectful. And as an instructor and as all instructors they felt a very personal relationship with the, our students. And the students responded terrifically.

The course of study was not easy. It was tough. And the instructors made it tough because it was our job to prepare students for intelligence duty in War. So the regular hours available to the students for study were insufficient.

After supervised evening study from seven to nine each evening, the students kept on studying. Then at 11 o'clock, all the lights throughout the Fort, at Camp Savage and later on at Fort Snelling, were turned off. And all students were supposed to go to bed. But they had to keep on with their studies. So, many many students would take their textbooks and their notes and go down into the latrine and sit on the toilets and study there. And as the c.q.'s [charge of quarters] and other people who made the rounds came by, they were ordered to go back to their beds, around one or two o'clock in the morning. Then in the mornings, when the soldiers were awakened, they had to wash up and shave and so forth, there are stories of students with Kanji cards and everything, placed it on the mirrors while they washed and shaved, studying that.

Then there are stories of students who were in a six months course at Camp Savage who never left the camp. They studied day and night, all day Saturday, all day Sunday to keep up with the course. The course of study was hard, and there was a rotation of students up and down. At the peak of the language training program there must have been, let me see, about (pauses to think] forty at least, forty or fifty classes in operation. And then the classes were large, thirty students to a class. And the students who couldn't keep up with their classes were dropped down to a lower section and then eventually many of them were washed out, dismissed from the school for lack of aptitude. And then the better students were promoted up, there was a constant shift all the time.

John Aiso was a very strict administrator. He had little direct contact with the students in the classes. And he administered the program under the direction of Colonel Rassmussen who got his orders from the Pentagon-"

Shigeya:"...and the program, as it was administered from the Pentagon, was full of pressure. The value of our graduates was determined, verified soon after the first graduates went out into the field. A certain number went to the Alaska Defense Command, and they did intelligence, especially during the Battle of Attu in 1943.  Then our first graduates were assigned to different places in the South Pacific command. At first the different commanders, in a state of confusion themselves, didn't know what to do with the Japanese Americans. And this was in May, June of 1942 before there were really any battles going on.  So, among our better students, like Minamato, he was driving a car for a commanding officer on Tahiti. And another case, Minamoto, one of the better graduates was driving jeeps somewhere in the South Pacific. And one of our early Caucasian graduates, Colonel, excuse me, Major John Burden, who was born and raised in Japan and was good in Japanese, was in New Caledonia.

And the Battle of Guadalcanal started in August of 1942 and Admiral Halsey, in his tours in the South Pacific, and conducting the Guadalcanal campaign, met John Burden and told John Burden, the Marines and the 25th Division on Guadalcanal are screaming for Japanese intelligence personnel. And John Burden said, 'Well, there are about ten graduates of MIS here in, on New Caledonia, and in Tahiti and Fijis and wherever. They've been trained to do intelligence.  So, the Admiral told John Burden, 'Use my plane, fly to these different places and round up MIS graduates and get them to Guadalcanal."

Haller: "Really! I didn't realize it took the personal intervention of Admiral Halsey to get the MIS graduates into the field."

Shigeya: "Well Halsey's story is a very interesting one. There's a story that he said the only way to take care of the problem in Japan is to kill all the Japanese when we beat them in the War and stuff like that. But then he had with him, on his flagship, a graduate of MIS who did intelligence work for him. And he responded to demands from General Collins, 25th Division, and he ordered Major John Burden to use his plane to fly to Tahiti and other places in the South Pacific to round up a team and they reported to General Collins of the 25th Division in, I believe, it was October of 1942 and they performed intelligence very very well.

And John Burden personally interrogated POW's. His men translated documents. There are a number of these people still living.  I met John Burden, who was an honored guest at a MIS fiftieth anniversary in Hawaii in July.  And members of his team were still there. And it was Major Burden who reported directly to the Pentagon regarding the loyalty and the military value of MIS graduates. And he was ordered from Guadalcanal campaign to report to the Pentagon and verified the fact that the Nisei were loyal to the United States and that they were very very important in military intelligence. And that led the way for other teams to be sent to the Guadalcanal campaign, Bougainville, Vella La Vella.

And from another command in the Southwest command, McArthur's command, one of our other Caucasian graduates in the first class, Major Swift, established ATIS, the Allied Translator and Interpretations Service in Brisbane and they began to gather people like Gary Kadani, Steve Yamamoto and so forth and Phil Ishio. And these people were in the vanguard of the New Guinea campaign. So that they fought, I believe, with the 32nd Division and they handled POW's.

There's an interesting story of one MIS man who served in New Guinea. He handled POW's and invariably the Nisei were very understanding and sympathetic and helpful regarding the treatment of POW's. After all, they're the same race: in cases they were fighting against their own brothers and their cousins and so forth. So, on New Guinea, Spady Koyama befriended a Japanese POW. Later on, during the occupation of Japan, this POW had been freed, contacted Spady and said, 'I want to thank you for taking care of my needs in the POW camp in New Guinea.' He said, 'I have a son of a relative of mine who I'm going to send to you to Tokyo to be your personal servant.' And Spady said, 'Ah naw, naw, naw!

There's no need for that.' But their contact was maintained over a period of fifty years. And one of the individuals involved became a member of the Diet in Japan. And two years ago the people involved in all of this visited Spady in [stops to think] in Spokane, Washington, and then brought armfuls of gifts and everything like that. There was all kinds of human interest stories surrounding the association of MIS people with Japanese POW's and people that they ran into in Japan."

 Haller: "That's an interesting story. I wanted to ask you how you must have been, around this time, by the time the first MIS'ers were used in combat, you would have been at Camp Savage. And how did you get feedback about the accomplishments of [the graduates)?"

Shigeya: "In a number of ways."

Haller: "And how did you incorporate that into the syllabus?"

Shigeya: "Well, like I received, exchanged personal letters with Captain Wright, all through the War. And even after the War, we'd even get together once in a while."

Haller: "Captain Wright was a fella who was in the field in New Guinea? Is that right?"

Shigeya: "No, he came in as a ROTC officer in December of 1941, and he escorted John Aiso and myself to Camp Savage. [Haller: "Oh, oh I see."] And then he graduated there.

And then upon graduation in December of 1942 he was assigned to the Americal Division in New Caledonia. Then from the Americal Division he got transferred to the 45th Division, I believe, Guadal Canal and Bougainville-"

Haller:  43rd probably, but yeah."

Shigeya: "And then all during that time that he was overseas and serving in the South Pacific we exchanged letters, V Mail letters. Other instructors corresponded with their students to a certain extent. Then one instructor, a very dedicated and skillful instructor, Mr. Yutaka Munakata, was given responsibility over what is known as the 'translation pool' at Camp Savage and Fort Snelling. And this was a pool of all graduates of the regular course and while waiting for orders from the Pentagon to proceed to the Front they were under Mr. Munakata's supervision and he trained them in the translation of documents, captured stuff coming back from the fronts and so forth. And many many students got to know Mr. Munakata very well because it was on a daily basis, and it was a matter of individual students talking constantly with Mr. Munakata to verify the accuracy of the translations and so forth.

And so, a lot of correspondence, I believe it was a file of about ten, twelve inches or letters was kept by Mr.

Munakata. And at one time he sent them to John Aiso in Los Angeles as a possible source of information for writing a history of the MIS. Then when Joe Harrington was given the job I wrote to John Aiso and asked that these letters be released to Joe Harrington for, during research for the writing of Yankee Samurai which he did. And so, Mr. Munakata's file of personal letters from the War Front from India, from you name-it, everywhere, were a big source of information for the writing of the MIS story, Yankee Samurai. The letters are now in the [Japanese American] National Historical Society archives.

At any rate, correspondence on a personal basis in many cases, words clipped out by censors indicating the location of, that is what is cropped out. In other cases, they were erased on with black grease paint and so forth. And then individuals like John Burden personally received directions from the Pentagon to go to Washington to report the work of MIS graduates. Then, there were after-action reports, a summary of battles that was submitted through the Divisions back to the Pentagon. Then-

Shigeya:"...two MIS captured materials and guns, I think there's one right in front of Weckerling Hall now, a gun used on Attu. And uniforms, rifles, things like that."

Haller: "How did that feedback effect, how did the curriculum change, or did it because of that feedback?"

Shigeya:"...these letters advised John Aiso on placing emphasis on certain things. For instance, more kanji, more sosho-"

Haller: "More-"

Shigeya: "Grass writing."

Haller:  "Grass writing."

Shigeya: "And then one very important bit of information from the War Fronts was the procedure or the techniques of the psychology of interrogating POW's. Uh, the Pentagon, in consultation with the British War Office, felt that Japanese soldiers and German soldiers, presented a problem in interrogation. That you had to be rough on them. If you treated these POWs with kindness and with courtesy that they would just take it as a sign of weakness. And would lie and would not answer and would not cooperate. And so, the original method of instruction or techniques used for POW interrogation was brutality. And even using physical force and beatings.

So, in the original POW interrogation courses at MIS certain ground rules were established. Then the teachers would assume the role of captured POW's. Then the students in Turn, or in teams would interrogate the teachers. And the students just loved it. They could scream and holler at the instructors and say 'You damn fool, you're lying and that's not true. And if you don't answer correctly, I'll hit you and stuff like that.'

But then we got word from the Front that this technique was not working, that the Japanese POW responded to kindness.

That if you looked after the personal needs of the POW a beaten, sickly weak POW, gave him a cigarette, asked if he needed aspirin, some kind of medication. Asked, what is the latest word you hear from your family. Is your family in Japan. Ok. Things like that. It would turn the POW completely around. He would relax and the interrogators would say, 'We are your friends. You are a POW but don't be ashamed of it. We're not going to brutalize you, we're not going to torture you. Just talk freely, answer our questions.'

In the Japanese Army the procedure of just giving your name, rank and serial number didn't operate. There was no restrictions on saying anything. And once you got into the confidence of the POW's they would talk, give you all kinds of information. In fact, a number of POW's who knew so much were flown from Australia to the United States and just weeks and weeks of interrogation to tell what they knew about the order of battle, the Japanese forces. The factories that manufactured munitions or guns or whatever in their hometowns in Japan. All kinds of all kinds of interesting information from many many POW's and the way to get it was to use courtesy, kindness, a cigarette, some extra goodies from the PX's and whatever.

And so that was a major change in the type of instruction we gave our students. It was tough, brutal rubber clubs and so forth type of technique in the beginning. But when we got word from the Front that that wouldn't (work], that you must be courteous, look after the personal matters of the POW's, give him a cigarette and give him medicine and so forth.

Then the rest was easy.

So, on an official and unofficial basis the school, the instructors kept in touch with a number of students and got feedback on what type of courses, what type of instruction was valuable. What the techniques should be utilized for different subjects and things like that. So, it was a continuous process of communicating back and forth to keep the instruction up-to-date, useful and of value for intelligence purposes."

Haller: "Hmmm. Very interesting. Do you have any insight into why the Japanese seemed so oblivious to the potential for intelligence leaks, provided by their diary keeping?"

  Shigeya: "Well a, the-"

Haller: I can understand given the nature of the Code of Bushido why they would not have received indoctrination in the talking as a prisoner."

Shigeya: "I think the answer is a historical one. In ancient times, in wars in Japan, wars ended brutally. The enemy was just wiped out."

Haller: "But wiped-out enemies may not be able to, subject to interrogation but they can still have their diaries read."

Shigeya: "Well, again, the modern wars of Japan were first with China. And the attitude of the Japanese toward the Chinese was that one Japanese Samurai was worth ten Chinese soldiers. And you capture a Chinese soldier, the heck with treating him as a POW under certain rules. Like for instance in 1896 there wasn't a Geneva Convention yet. So, in modern warfare the first one being the Sino-Japanese War of 1896, there's no such thing as POW's and interrogation. They captured a Chinese they just cut off his head and left the body on the battlefield.

Then the next experience of war between Japan and the outside world was the Boxer Rebellion. In this instance, again the enemy was Chinese, and the question of POW interrogation, that sort of thing didn't arise.

Then the next experience was the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 and 1905. And this was a brutal war. Uh [stops to collect thoughts) the Russians [were] already suffering internal rebellions in Moscow and so forth. And then the long long distance from Moscow to Vladivostok and down Manchuria to the War Front. The logistics were horrendous, and they only had a single line railway system. And communication back to Russia, with internal problems and Moscow was such that modern warfare, consideration of POW's and that sort of thing didn't exist. And insofar as the Japanese were concerned it was their first experience against a first­ class modern nation. And the battle of Mukden, as an example, between Admiral Togo in the Japan Sea and then the experiences of General Nogi in Manchuria, they were just brutal wars. Brutal wars. And there's no, no consideration of how to interrogate their prisoners or anything like that. So, if you go to war, if you're wounded or you die, or get captured, commit suicide and die. There's no such thing as name, rank and serial number.

In World War I Japan joined the Allies and fought in China against the Germans in Shangtung and providing assistance to the Allies in Europe. But not very great participation in modern warfare and in the problem of interrogation. And in the meantime the Geneva Convention was signed and rules and regulations regarding handling of POW's, the amount of information we should give regarding POW's was developed.

But the Japanese army never concerned itself with that problem. They told their people that you go to war for Japan, you die for your emperor. It's a disgrace to be captured, it's a disgrace to become a prisoner of war. And if you should ever find yourself in a position like that, commit suicide and die. That was the advice.

And then the traditional Japanese attitude regarding language was that the Japanese language is so foreign and so difficult for Caucasians to learn and understand that there is no need to be concerned about that. Of course they developed their codes and ciphers. They sent all their diplomatic messages in code and many of their directions from the general staff to the divisions fighting all over the Pacific were in code. But in many instances, by radio transmission they just broadcast in spoken Japanese.  So they never, they rightfully determined--- oh I don't know if they determined or not--- they didn't restrict their military personnel from writing their thoughts and the condition and the morale and the supply status of the forces out in the different fronts. They just figured the Allies would capture documents, military orders, and they wouldn't be able to read and translate them so what's the problem?

So that was their attitude.

And the people in the Pentagon who pushed and pushed to organize this school understood that. They knew in 1941; it is said that the Pentagon conducted a survey, a national survey, in the military services and in the colleges of the United States to pinpoint potential Japanese intelligence personnel. And they found about two dozen. That was it.

And you can't conduct a war against a powerful enemy like Japan using only two dozen military intelligence operators. And so Japanese Americans, the Nisei, were the only source. And Weckerling and Captain Rasmussen and other people who had associations with Nisei in Tokyo and after coming back from language duty in different places had confidence that the Nisei would be loyal to the United States and would be able to conduct military intelligence.

And uh, it was a calculated risk. The military in general, the President of the United States, didn't trust the Japanese. Governor Olson of the State of California, the Governor of Idaho made a statement after Pearl Harbor that the Japs live like rats, they live like rats, and they breed like rats and they live like rats, a public statement. That was the contempt and the regard of these leaders in the American communities everywhere and the columnists and the newspapers in the media in Los Angeles. The newspaper editorials and the articles that they wrote after Pearl Harbor and until the communication was effected was unbelievable. The hysteria, the hatred and the prejudice that they demonstrated.

 So, Rufus Bratton, Carlisle Dusenbury, Moses Pettigrew and Moore and Weckerling and Rasmussen and Dickey and the other people who believed in the Nisei and trusted them stick their necks out to take this risk, against the general opposition towards Japanese Americans is a story in itself."

Haller: "Sure is.... although you participated very personally in these events it's also been a half a century since that time, so there's quite a bit of perspective.

Obviously, you've done a lot of thinking about this in your time.  And I wonder what you think the, I guess, the greatest significance of the MIS school in those days is for us now. What that significance is for us now."

Shigeya: "Well, the American society as a whole is racist, even today. And there are elements in American society, in government and in the media, and in the public who publicly state that the internment of Japanese Americans was the right thing to do. Some people have taken the reverse argument and say, Well the internment was really done for the protection of Japanese Americans. And the answer to that is if that is the case why were the machine guns on the watchtowers of Manzanar pointed inward and not pointed outward? The condition of Japanese Americans and the Japanese Japanese in the United States in 1941 was not a happy one. The effects of the Depression affected the total economy, the government, and the policies of the United States government, it was a very very difficult time. And the future of Japanese Americans when the War started out was not a happy or optimistic thing. It was a period of crisis, of suffering, all kinds of problems. A hundred and twelve thousand Japanese Americans dislocated for four years in camps like that.

And then during the war the 442 was formed and they broke all records for courage and valor in Europe, the most highly decorated unit in military history of the United States.

The MIS story is largely untold, unknown. In the words of General Charles Willoughby, the MIS Language personnel shortened the War by two years at a savings of thousands and thousands of American casualties.

But that's not the only part of the MIS story. MacArthur went on to occupy Japan and he conducted the most benevolent and enlightened occupation in the history of civilization.

And being a student of history, the patriot that he was, his experiences with his father in China and Japan during his growing days, he understood that when the war ended that Russia would soon become the principal enemy, antagonist of the United States. And he deliberately set out to quickly reconstruct Japan, establish democracy there, and create a strong ally, a defense for the United States vis-a-vis Russia.... And he did that in an almost unbelievable manner.

He's criticized for all kinds of things, but this is his contribution to American history. He preserved, built-up, reconstructed Japan to become a powerful ally of the United States. And he, MacArthur, could not have accomplished this without the help of thousands and thousands of the MIS graduates. The MIS graduates looked Japanese, in many instances they were as Japanese as they were Americans, and they spoke the language, they understood the psychology of the people, and they could communicate with prime ministers, with the government officials, with the merchants and the farmers on a personal basis. They could use Japanese etiquette, standing up and saying [repeats various greetings in Japanese) and so forth. They could establish immediate rapport with the Japanese population at all levels.

And there were a handful of people who engaged in the Black Market and profited and cheated the Japanese and the American government out of this and that and made fortunes out of their stay in Japan, but the bulk of the MIS people in Japan formed lifelong friendships with the Japanese people. And every aspect of the occupation from government to justice to police to demilitarization, the writing of the constitution, the infrastructure, the railroads, restarting utilities, the labor movement, women's suffrage, education. And, at the local government, the MIS graduates were everywhere working together with MacArthur and the Japanese people to enable the successful occupation.

Even as late as spring 1993 NHK, the Japanese National Broadcasting System, put on a two-hour documentary telling the story of how MIS CIC operators, in civilian clothes, infiltrated the Collllllunist thrust, worked in the Japanese labor unions, the warehouse workers, the railroad unions and the teachers’ unions to prevent the takeover of the Japanese working force by the labor unions. And as late as spring 1993 the comment from NHK people and the general listening public in Japan was that the Communization of Japan was prevented by the Japanese intelligence personnel.

And it's a largely untold story. Joe Harrington gathered materials for telling the story of MIS participation in the occupation of Japan and the files, feet and feet and feet of files, are there at National Japanese American Historical Society. But no one has evidenced enough interest to go through them, file the materials and develop a true story.

But the fact that Japan, for fifty years has been an ideological ally of the United States, is an open and democratic society and has participated in many many ways including the role of the Japanese self-defense forces to maintain a strong position in the event of breakout from North Korea, even today. And the possibilities of Russian activities in China: for fifty years the development of the reconstruction of Japan, the rebuilding of the Japanese economy so that Japan is an economic superpower, in many cases conflicting with the United States, but that's beside the point. The fact is that Japan is a powerful ally in many many ways of the United States in that vital part of the world.

The story has never been told of the role of MIS graduates in this development. If Joe Harrington had not died, he probably would have been able to produce a pretty good story on that aspect. And then, it's been fifty years since World War II, and the service of MIS men and the 442 in the Second World War, but the Japanese were deprived of their civil rights, their constitutional rights, protected in the 14th Amendment of due process, equal protections of the laws, was violated by President Roosevelt. And various efforts were made throughout the years to ask the United States government for an apology to provide some kind of compensation, to indicate to Japanese Americans that this wrong was committed in 1942. But the Nisei are very Japanese in this aspect: they will act, they will perform and do their duty as prescribed by Japanese concepts of bushido and loyalty. But when the event is over, they don't like to talk about it. And the Nisei were very reluctant to talk about the relocation. They feel that a, a personal sense of shame that somehow, something that they did or said led to this thing even though, on a legal basis, it was entirely wrong.

So, the Nisei grew up, they had to come back from the War, come back from the relocation centers to start life over, completely. Their homes, their farms, their businesses, everything was taken away from them, in the War and there was no time to start any kind of actions asking the United States government to apologize, to declare that the internment was illegal, was wrong. When the soldiers came back from Japan and from Europe into California towns, there were signs in towns in California and Washington, 'No Japs Wanted. No dogs wanted. Stay out!' And local people, the teamster’s union in Washington refused to let Japanese sell their flowers and their produce in the wholesale markets in Seattle. They had all kinds of discrimination. A 442-hero veteran came back to Auburn, his house was burned down, his warehouses were burned down, the perpetrators of the crime were captured-

End of Tape 3

Tape 4, Side 1

Shigeya: "About seventy or eighty incidents of this type up and down the coast here of discrimination against returning Japanese and veterans. So, the veterans came back, they had to go to school, finish their college educations and get married, raise their children, start their business and lives all over again. It was, there was no time, and the Nisei didn't want to discuss the incident of the internment. The expression is made, 'We were raped! Who wants to talk about being raped!'"

End of Tape 4

End of formal interview

Description

Shigeya Kihara discusses being a civilian instructor at the Forth Army Intelligence school during World War II and the living with the repercussions of Executive Order 9066 as one of the only Japanese Americans left in the Bay Area.

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