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Oral History Project - Forren, Robert 1980 Part 2
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These interviews are presented here in their original form, unmodified, in an effort to preserve and share the history of our park and its surrounding area. The memories, comments, and viewpoints shared by interviewees in the materials of the New River Gorge Oral History Project and related documents do not represent the viewpoints of the National Park Service.
[The second of two reels for Interview Eight begins on top of page 8.24.]
PN: You were talking about the newspapers in the Jenny Lind houses?
RF: Most all of the, most all the homes, they used the Cincinnati Post and the Grit. We had what was, a newspaper known as the Grit; I think it was printed somewhere up in Pennsylvania. But that was a weekly paper, and it was sold by the boys In the coal camp. It was nothing to see a part of the home that was papered with the Grit or the Charleston, or the Cincinnati Post. And it was up around 28 before you seen the homes begin to have their wallpaper inside. And it was the ones that did have them, it was the miner that had been able to make an extra couple of dollars that month, loading a couple or three extra cars of coal in order to buy that two or three rolls of paper to paper that room. And then the companies began to get just a little more liberal with their painting. You'd see some of the homes that were painted inside. And it was, the painting was done by either the m other or the father or the head of the household. It was not provided by the, material was provided by the company, but the work was done by the miner or his wife.
PN: By the miner?
RF: Yes. Then they would begin to furnish a little more fencing, wire fencing, I saw in front of some of the little homes around the coal camp to keep out the hogs and keep out the few cows that there was. And of course the miner had to set his own fenceposts, and stretch his own wire and everything. But the companies begin, some of the companies begin to their provide them with those necessities to work or raise / little vegetable gardens and so on. But some of them didn't have anything; they just went out and picked them a patch and that's when, that's where they did their gardening at. Then in the thirties, it was nothing unusual. Now that was a pathetic type of life in the coal fields. No one had anything, and it was a year or so later they began to furnish a little Red Cross flour. And honestly I have known the boys to walk from the coal camps on New River--Elverton, Browns, South Caperton from there into Fayetteville, a distance of about 14, 15 miles. And then would be given a 24—pound bag of flour. It was nothing to see 12, 15 of the men coming from Fayetteville with a poke, a 24—pound poke of flour of their back, to go on in, into these little coal camps. And the companies would not, you had to have time or tonnage in the office before they would give you a dollar scrip. I have often, I have often seen old mothers sit there at the scrip window, their tears pouring out of their eyes, begging for a dollar scrip, begging for a dollar scrip. And very seldom was I ever saw them provided with this dollar scrip. And I 've seen a lot of the old coal miners that's wait till the superintendent come into his office, and finally get audience with him to go back and beg for a dollar scrip to go into the company store to buy something, some food or something for theirself. And then when work was not too good, and some of the coal companies, the evening before they knew the mine was going to work, would advance this dollar scrip whereby they could get their little bit of Prince Albert smoking tobacco, or their plug tobacco which most of them chewed at that time, and maybe enough of money to get some bologna and a loaf of light bread to pack their lunch the next day. And maybe a few potatoes. A lot of, a lot of our homes at that time, they had fried potatoes In the morning for breakfast too, but not too many of them. They were not that much unless they had raised this vegetable theirself. In 1941, I went back to the coal mine after I recuperated from my broken back. I was able to go back on a steady basis. Why it was only about two and a half months till I was elected Recording Secretary of my local union. Six months later, I was elected President of my local union.
PN: What local was this?
RF: Layland, 5821, Layland, West Virginia. And then I stayed in the capacity as President of my local union until 45. Well, in '45 I was elected National Scale Committeeman as a representative for the New River field. And that included all of the mines that was around —- 40- some, yea, 40—some at that time.
PN: Was that all District 29?
RF: That was District 29, yes.
PN: There was no District 17 there in the New River fields?
RF: No, in ’43 we got, we went from, we came out of District 17 in ‘43
PN: Into 29?
RF: Yes, and again, now, it went down. Previous to ’21 we had 29. But when we gained the union back in '33, why 17 and 29 was one —— which was 17. But then after we had almost completely organized the field in '43, why then they reestablished 29. And in 45, I was elected International Scale Committeeman. It so happened I am, I am a part of which we think was one of the most famous contracts that was ever…
PN: That was when the Health and Retirement Fund was established?
RF: That was when we got the, that was when we got the pension and the medical program. That's when we signed what was known as the Lewis—Krug Agreement. That was when we had the flags flying over the drif tmouths [indicating U.S. government operation of the mines at the time]. And that was when we got the nickel a ton [royalty payment into the Fund].
PN: Was that the 46 contract? That was signed in 46?
RF: Yes, yes, yea. That's when we got the nickel a ton. And I was also that, in the year of '44, elected Justice of the Peace in my district, which was Quinnimont district. And that was quite an honor to a coal miner at that time. And I was President of my P.T.A.; we had Layland Junior High School, around 700 students at that time. They come in from the surrounding territory. And that was quite an honor. And we spent 56 days in Washington; we had a 56—day strike to get the five—cent royalty to begin with. And at that time was when I become knowledgeable, and with my per— sonal contact with Mr. Lewis. I had known John Lewis intimately previous to this, but not personally. My longest conversation happened to be one evening, we had been laying in at the Hamilton Hotel for about 12, 14 days without a break, or sign of a break from the operators.
PN: Where was that? In Cincinnati?
RF: No, it was In Washington.
PN: Washington?
RF: Washington. And I had gone over to the headquarters over on Fourteenth Street to pick up a Journal. And on my way back, he was, that evening he was sitting in the park between Fourteenth and Fifteenth, feeding the pig—, feeding the squirrels peanuts. He said to me, he said: "New River" which he always called me "New River" because I represented the New River field at that time. He said, “New River, sit down a while." And I sat down, and to me that was one of the greatest personal contacts I think I I’ve ever had with a human being. For the knowledge that man possessed in regard to the conditions that existed in my field, the New River field, was unexcelled that I didn't think possible that anyone unless they had worked there. He begin to tell me of the slate conditions. And at that time, we had to move so much slate without being paid for it, in order to make a passageway for the mules, or make passageway at that time for the gathering motors. And also the other enormous amount of what we called ' 'dead work" in the mines that we did not receive any pay for.
PN: Timbering and stuff like that?
RF: That's right. He had, he had full knowledge of this, full knowledge of this much greater than myself, and 1 worked in the field. And also he told me at the time that he came from Wales and went into coal mines in Iowa. And he, his vocabulary was beyond human comparison, beyond human comparison. I know that during the course of conversation, even though he, I think be as understanding with me, knowing my limited knowledge, why I still had to go back to the hotel and think for hours before some of the conversation would really stick. But he also was telling me about the conditions that exist in those mines. He was the type. About, just a few days after this, why things begin to gel in regard to settling the, part of the contract. That was the year that we got the Safety Code, first safety code that we had in the field. But I remember the morning that they broke, so well. The producers, we had Mr. John T. Jones who was then one of our elec—, head officers, he was Secretary of the Negotiating Committee. Mr. Cartwright from Indiana Coal Operators Association was the Chairman of that committee. And in that time, Harry Moses was…
PN: U. S. Steel?
RF: President of U. S. Steel. And it so happened that previous years that Mr. Lewis had worked with Mr. Moses's father in the mines in Iowa. For I recall so well that morning, that United States Steel had been fighting the safety code so hard. And as Mr. Lewis come into the negotiat—, the hearing that morning, he never pulled his hat off. He walked to the press table, and he sat down at the press table. And during the period of time which was ten or 15 or possibly 20 minutes before he was recognized by Mr. Cartwright as one of the speakers that morning. And as he walked from the press table around to the battery of microphones, he began to drag his leg.
PN: Who was this, John L.?
RF: Yes. Of course all of us was astonished. We wondered what had happened. As he got up, he pulled his hat off and handed it over to the Chairman, or I mean the Secretary, Mr. Jones. He cleared his voice, he pointed his finger down in the battery of lawyers, operators, and other officials of the opera— tors committees, negotiating committee. And he said to him, he said: "Harry,” he said, "Does that bring any recollections to you? Do you recall anyone in your life that dragged their leg a lot of years, before death?" He said, "Harry, I want to say they were fond recollections. He says, "You tell my coal miners setting over here If that don't bring back memories." He said, "The last 11 years of your father's life." [a brief interruption here] He said to him, he said, "Harry, doesn't this bring back memories to you?" He said, “The last 11 years of your father's life, he drug his leg like that.” He said, "Tell these boys what happened." He said, "Tell my coal miners setting over here what happened.” He said, "It was due to neglect of the coal company in which he worked at." And he said, “He worked across, just an entry from me." He said, “You had a wonderful father, Harry.” But he says, “You know I can't say that about you here this morning.” Oh man, he eat him up. Then he said, “Now just yesterday, we dwelt on hours here of time that was unnecessary where you people were trying to seat Mr. Moody as the Chairman of the negotiating committee Wage Negotiating Committee — of this contract.” And he says, “I didn't know Mr. Moody.” He said, “I’ve never had that honor. I never had the honor of meeting Mr. Moody.” He said, ”He may be a great man.” He said, “I don’t know.” He says, “Then he may be a representative of some little deep—freeze corporation from up in state of Pennsylvania” which he was. He said, “Now you know, Harry, and the rest of you operators, you all know that Jim Francis —— who is the President of the Bitu—, or who is the Chairman of the Bituminous Coal Operators Commission, President of Island Creek Coal Company, who now lives in Huntington, West Virginia." And he says, "You all know that it's impossible to arrive at any settlement until some of you all go back to Huntington, West Virginia." And he said, “I would judge that would be Mr. Moody, if we seat him as such." He said, “We'd have to call a halt here." And he said, “My boys may be here when the snow flies.” They said, “We wouldn't want that.” He said, “I’ll have to make this remark this morning.” He said, “In the not—too—far—distant future, when the great minds and the great scientists of this nation" now remember this was in the forties — control the solar system whereby that they'll not need such, or be such great need for coal.” And he said, “Some of the great scientists of our nation control atomic power whereby that they may not need such, be such great need for coal.” He says, "The I hope that they'll erect a monument, a great monument in Huntington, West Virginia. And he says, “On this monument to satisfy you operators back there,” he said “I’d like to know about this inscription.” And he said, "I'd like to see Mr. Moody be made a part of this monument. " And he said, "On that monument," he said, "I'd like to see this inscription — I just don't know. I’ll have to ask Jim Francis.”
That was the type of man he was, one of the greatest humanitarians that I've ever known. To know John Lewis is beyond, beyond human thinking in my book, although I know I'm limited. But then in 29 when I went with the organization, or [correcting himself] in '48 when I went with the organization, we had a wonderful President here George Titler —— that went on to become Vice President of this organization before he expired. [Mr. Titler also went on to run on Tony Boyle's ticket in 1969 is an election so marred by irregularities that the federal courts ordered a rerun of the election in 1972, a rerun in which the Boyle ticket was soundly defeated.] But I 've often told my people that they would never know he was the type of man that never wanted the qualities that was within him to be known amongst the people. What he'd want to do would be the type of humanitarian that he was. You'll never know the days back in the fifties when things were so tough, when I 've gone into these coal camps and delivered coal orders, and delivered an order for some school books, or an order for some school kid's shoes, and delivered Christmas baskets in the homes. And he would always tell me, "Bob, don't tell the people who sent these. Tell them Santa Claus sent these baskets. But we want those kids in school." And at no time, I say emphatically, at no time did ever I take a check from the District 29. I took it with George Titler's name on it and his own personal account. I so often did that. And I spent 26 and one—half years in district before I retired. And I retired on my own; I was almost 67 when I retired. And that was just about the time that this confusion started in the organization [referring to the rank—and—file movements which successfully ousted both International and District incumbents in 1972—1973] . I've often said that I spent 20 to 22 years, the happiest moments of my life, which is now, I am going on my 74th year through the grace of God, was spent knowing that I was in the position to help my coal miners, to help their families. The last three or four years that I was with the organization, in the medical department and the organization, were a little rough. You could see things begin to change. They was a little more vocal about that. And then of course in nineteen hundred and seventy—what, did we go in to, that we gained full autonomy. Seventy—three, wasn't it?
PN: Yes, '73 1 think, yea.
RF: Seventy— three.
PN: That was the first election then [in District 29].
RF: But in all that period of time, why It's been, it's been something that's been impossible for me to relate like I would like to. But they were happy moments; they were happy for my family. I spent a lot of hours at night, been on many a picket line, I 've seen some rough times. I 've seen little tipples that have been built the day before, and go back the next day, and I judge lightning had struck them or something; they wasn't there the next day. I 've seen some little larger tipples that the same thing has happened. But it would seem like that something due to the attitude that they had toward the coal miners that, maybe this was from somewhere else. But anyway they weren't there the next day.
PN: Let me ask you a few more things about the twenties. Did you live in Elverton most of the time in…?
RF: No. Now from 1915 until 1928, I lived at Lookout.
PN: Lookout, yea.
RF: Which was known as a part of the New River field. '25 I was at Elverton as I told you yesterday. I was, worked about three or four months loading coal.
PN: Where did you live after 28?
RF: I went back to Elverton, went to Elverton in '28. And lived there till '33 when I got my back broke.
PN; And where did you go then?
RF: And from '28, now in I went down there and I went to McKendree and become C. and O. ticket agent, postmaster, and had a little grocery store. And my wife was night superintendent of nurses there at the hospital.
PN: At the hospital in McKendree?
RF: Yes.
PN: That was a railroad hospital, right?
RF: Yea. But during the time that I operated this little store, it was more or less what's said "nickel and dime"; often as much as a dollar a day would be maximum sales that I r d have. But I was working in the surrounding coal, maybe a few days at this coal camp. I worked at Hemlock a while; I worked at Laurel Creek a few days; and I worked at Leslie a few days.
PN: Leslie?
RF: Leslie, yes, which is in the Greenbrier field. And but I was not able to go back to the mine due to this broken back of mine, fully back to the mine in full employment until 1940. Then I went to Layland.
PN: When you were living in Elverton between 28 and 33, could you describe the appearance of that town a little bit? Like the number of houses, what they looked like?
RF: They were, Elverton was a mining camp, was a little above the majority of camps along there. Those houses were all painted. There were around, around 70 houses there. But at that time, back up on the hill a mile and a half to two mile, was what was known at the Gatewood section. And a lot of the fellows in that section worked at the mine. We had around, I guess, at the heighth [sic] of their production, around 250 miners there.
PN: At Elverton?
RF: At Elverton, yes. Now when I went to Elverton back in '28, it had become what was more or less at that time a mechanized mine. It had motors. There were no mules, no mule—power at Elverton at that time. They had what was known as gathering motors, and then the mainline motors. And they had their drills, electric drills and so on did the drilling on the inside. And we didn't get the mechanized mine, that is, as far as the loading, loading machines come into New River about 1944 — 45. That's when they got the Joy loading machines. They begin to, hand—loading at that time begin to fade out of the picture.
PN: Let me just ask you a question both about Lookout and Elverton when you lived there between 1915 and 1933. Were there many Black miners living there?
RF: There was Black miners at both of them. They were not a majority; the majority were white. And / never worked in a coal camp, and I 've never known a coal camp in the New River field where I can say that the majority were colored.
PN: But there were a number, though?
RF: They were a number. They were not; I would say 33 and a third percent, would be about 33 and a third percent. But they were, from the time at Lookout in the twenties on up through into 28, they were, they had, they lived down below the company store. The white people lived up above the company store. Same provision was made at Elver ton. Where the incline come down the mountain at the tipple, they lived on the lower side of the incline; and the white lived on the upper side. And it begin to change just a little bit at Elver ton. Some of the colored began to move over around the coke ovens, and over on what had been known as the white side. And now that was not due to the decrease in white employment at all. That was just due to the fact that there was a few more colored begin to come into Elverton at that time, and a few more white as well. But the white were mostly coming from off of the Salem area, Gatewood section, and up around Sewell. Sewell, which was more or less a small railroad center about four mile above Elver ton, had had a lot of colored employees at the coke ovens which was operated there.
PN: And there was coke ovens at Elver ton too, you said?
RF: Yes, coke ovens at Elver ton too . A great percentage of, 50% of the mines, in the twenties had coke ovens; 50% of them down New River, let 's say New River.
PN: Really?
RF: Oh yes. Beury had coke ovens, Fire Creek had coke ovens, Sewell had coke ovens, Caper ton had coke ovens, Elmo had coke ovens, Ajax had coke ovens, and Kaymoor had an enormous bunch of coke ovens.
PN: Really?
RF: Yea, enormous bunch of coke ovens.
PN: Were those beehive?
RF: Yea, yea, beehive—type. And Elver ton had coke ovens, Rush Run had coke ovens, Stone Cliff had coke ovens, Slater had coke ovens. Now 98% of the employees of the coke ovens were colored.
PN: Really?
RF: About all the white that was on the coke ovens at that time was the little motor that was used to replenish the fuel, there was a motor operator, and the coke—oven boss. They were all white. The one that drew the coke, loaded the ovens, and so on and so forth, and sealed the ovens was 98% colored, 98% colored. Now I would say that at Elver ton, half of their pro— duction went into making coke.
PN: Were these coke—oven workers members of the union?
RF: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. They were members of the union.
PN: District 29 or District 50?
RF: 29.
PN: It wasn't 50 was it?
RF: No, 29. No, we had a pretty hard time organizing Sewell down there. For Sewell coal for the ovens come from up at Cliff top, which was about six miles from the mine. Cliff top Mine, Babcock Coal and Coke Company, Babcock Coal and Lumber Company, was unionized at the mine. But it was up in the latter, it was up in the latter thirties, or the early part of forties before we were able to organize the Sewell coke plant. It was a big plant, one of the biggest ones we had.
PN: Sewell was still operating then?
RF: No, it's nothing operating now.
PN: No, then in the forties.
RF: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
PN: When did that shut down in Sewell ?
RF: Sewell didn't shut down in their ovens until around '51 or two, '51 or two.
PN: In this period we were talking about before, at Lookout and Elverton, you know, were there any inmigrants from Europe that came to work in the mines?
RF: We had several old foreign elements, but not too many at Lookout. Lookout was located up on a plateau. It was more or less a farming community at one time, to begin with, a farming community. It's on, Lookout's located on main Route 60 between, federal highway, you know. And most all those coal mining houses has as much as an acre on up; the last home we lived in had 22 acres. And we didn't have, we had a few foreigners there, but not many. But we had several in Elverton —— Polacks and Russians and Hungarians and. One thing we could never say on the river, you'd never see any Jew in the coal mine.
PN: Really?
RF: No, no, no, no, no, you didn't see one in the coal mine. They often come up and down in them coal camps with their packs on the back of them on payday, selling; some of them had some of the most enormous packs of old clothing and jewelry and stuff, that you ever saw, going into these mining camps. That was after them boys were able to start spending a little bit of the money that they accumulated. But I 've told you, I think, before —— you were told how much money you could draw. You were told how much scrip to cut. But they begin to accumulate just a little cash, they begin to buy maybe a dress with it. Maybe pay a dollar down this month, and next month when they come back, pay another dollar. I remember one old fellow, one old Jewish fellow, by the name of Nicholas Safety. And he travel led that river for years and years. And then maybe when night come, why he'd give a, he'd go into one of these coal camps, and maybe give some of the family [sic] fifty cents or a piece of jewelry or maybe a big piece of wearing apparel for his supper, his breakfast, and his night's lodging.
PN: Did any of these teams, did any of these, did Elver ton or any of the towns along the gorge there have baseball teams?
RF: Oh yes, that's something else. About all of our coal camps, about all of our coal camps had a baseball team. And the coal companies, they begin to become quite competitive with the adjoining camps. And if the coal company heard of a good pitcher, or catcher, or a good player a little above the average, why they'd send some of their management over to this other coal camp to see if they could make some lucerative [lucrative] trade with him, maybe a better job, if you come over and play ball for us. And then a lot of the boys begin up in the latter twenties, the boys begin to, management begin to go into some of these colleges and which was seldom. But boys that was, had to come back to the coal camps to get labor to work during the summer, to get money enough to go back in college, why it, they would hire them. But they, they have a nominal job, were never very hard at all; they was mostly outside —— maybe in the coal company store; or maybe doing some repair work to the houses that summer; maybe putting some, repairing some foundations or doing some carpentry work or something. Yes, that was the way it was done. At that time, I might mention this too, you never heard of, you never knew, you never knew of a coal miner's child finishing high school. And a very, very few of them you heard of finishing eighth grade. Now our family, as I told you yesterday, my dad as I said was a fairly decent carpenter, fairly decent stonemason and brickmason. And my dad, when the mines wasn't working, was able to get over to this farmer that traded work, and get a few dollars. All of us, all of us kids were able to finish school, all of us was able to finish school. And there was never anyone In my family was able to go to college until my two daughters .
My two daughters was the first in my family. And I can go back, my, as I said, my family was coal miners. But as I go back, 75 years in my, I could trace my history back, none of them had college. That's on both sides —— my father's and mother's side both.
PN: When you were living in Elverton, or Lookout, what, would most of the boys and girls go through eighth grade?
RF: Yes, that's all they could go through at that time. But they very seldom ever went through the eighth grade. They were, about the time they were 13 years old, they were, the boys were pulled out to go to the camp [meaning mine], and the girls were pulled out to go, stay at home. The girls, there was nothing, the girls, oh rarely, rarely yes. But it was, I mean, it was rarely that you'd see a girl that had finished high school too. I mean free school.
PN: So most of the people didn't even go through the eighth grade then right?
RF: That's right, that's right, that's right. And kids at that time, you take some boy that, they married early — 15 years old and along through there. My God, some of the boys had their families pretty well along at the time they were 22 years old. Yea, five or six children. There was a relationship that's unusual; you very, very seldom ever heard of somebody leaving their wife. You very, very seldom ever heard of somebody, a divorce in the mining camp. Now,
PN: Why was that, do you think? I guess you were just going to explain it.
RF: Why was it? I think the main trouble [sic] was that there was just, there was a closeness there. That there was a relationship that don't exist today. That a man spent 80% of his time at work and in him home, 85% of his time. And, well, a customary practice, it was necessary, you didn't do those things. Oh no, you never heard of divorce. We lost our father when he was only 53 years old. All seven of my brothers have been coal miners, all seven of them. My oldest
PN: Along New River mostly, or different places?
RF: Well, most of them on the River. Now of course I 've got, I 've only got one brother that is in the industry yet. All, or two, there's three of us, there's three, two of them are on the miner's pension. See, I 'm on the International pension. And there's three of us are pensioned coal miners. And I had one that died, was a pensioned coal miner; that's four of them. I have one that made an Army career; he's he's with the government today; he's in California either, he come out of the coal mines at, went into the mines when he was just a few days past 16 years old. My mother signed papers for him to get in. And he made a career of it. Got three boys — they 're all college graduates; all have wonderful jobs in California. He was just home the week before last. I had a brother that was working at Quinwood, and he was tipple operator there at Quinwood; and he was 57 years old and went to work that morning and died took a heart attack and died right at work.
PN: Right there at that tipple?
RF: At the tipple, yes. At his place of employment. I 've got another brother that's with, still at Lay land. And he's tipple operator there. He's only, see, that mine’s practically closed down. The only thing they’re doing now, they’re bringing some Sewell coal in from some of those small, adjoining mines out there.
PN: But the mine itself is shut down?
RF: Yes, the big mine's shut down right now.
PN: They aren't retreating or anything, it's just shut down?
RF: It's just shut down. They don't know when to start, yes, they, in the last, it's been shut down for a year and a half or two years. But in the last two years they've spent around $8 million there in rejuvenating over there. The mine is all, they've put in an enormous new cleaning plant, they put in an enormous new and it's six mile from the cleaning plant — and they put in an enormous preparation plant. And they retracked the mine with railroad steel. And they bought a lot of moveable equipment. And it's just sitting there now boarded up. The mine now belongs to the United Pocahontas people, and is, I think the head office now is in Cincin—, or in Cleveland. Belong to the New River Pocahontas people, from up in Pennsylvania for years and years and years.
PN: That pretty much covers a lot of…
RF: Well anything in this world, and something else might, back in, back in 19—, from '19 up until West Virginia went dry, why about all the mining camps had their saloons at that time too. And those saloons was controlled in, up and down New River, by what was known as the "Fayette County Whiskey Ring" — politicians controlled them at that time.
PN: They did?
RF: Yea. Well some of the old, there's some very old historical history behind those old saloons old “Stagger Lee,” old “Bloody Bucket" now they had some of the wierdest names in this world. At El-, across the river from Elverton, they had a saloon that was known as old "Stagger Lee." And just down at Keenys Creek —— the old foundation, I was down there a few years is ago, still sitting there —— the old, it had what was known as "Dime a Dozen. And all of em had those peculiar names, all those saloons. But they were noted, noted places at one time on that river. There's so much history to New River.
PN: What, and they were all controlled by, by, by a bunch of politicians?
RF: No, they were always controlled by a bunch of politicians out of the Fayette County, not by the coal companies. Unless the coal companies, now.
PN: How was that? They just managed to…
RF: There was no doubt they was a little, they'd slip the coal company a few extra dollars on that stuff, in order to provide this. And it was built on coal company property, of course, But at no time in all that period of time did I ever know a coal company and I could go back to 1912 very vividly, very vividly I remem—, I can recall those things . Thurmond down there, I don't know whether I told you, Thurmond used to be one of the most historic places between Cincinnati and White Sulphur Springs. My God, they used to gather, these coal operators used to gather in there. It is said now--you'll have to [re]search this, I am not positive but they was one poker game supposed to have gone on down there continuously for nine months without a break—up, without a break—up. And they had one of the most elaborate hotels, and that was owned by an old scab coal operator by the name of William McKe11. William McKe11 was an old bachelor. He controlled the Loup Creek section of Fayette County at one time, with about ten mines, And he was, at that time was a multi—, multiple millionaire. And rather than ever sign up with the union, in the thirties he sold out to the New River Company, which is a subsidiary of the C. and O. Railroad.
PN: The New River Company?
RF: Yea, yea. He sold out to them rather than sign a union contract.
PN: McKell?
RF: Yea, William McKell.
PN: Did he own Glen Jean?
RF: He owned Glen Jean, Kllsyth, Ta roy, and McDonald, Turkey Knob. Let's see, there was: Glen Jean, Tamroy, Price — Derryhale, Oswald, Tamroy. He didn't own Price Hill, Price Hill was opened up there by Sinclairs. That was another toughie; that was aother toughie. But things were, there were not a lot of trouble in organizing in there after '30. Some of the companies found it pretty, but there was more or less, some of the coal companies right after the Depression was right against the wall theirself. Fact of the matter is I knew personally a Mr. Ebersole Gaines, up in the thirties that was become President of the New River Company. This might be a little interesting. I remember walking in the barber shop was in Fayetteville in the thirties, and it right after we had pretty well established ourself in the fields. And we had just come off a long strike. And Mr., Mr. Gaines was sitting in another chair. And there was something, he spoke to me, and a remark was made about John Lewis. And he made this statement to me, and I recall so vividly. "Bob, John Lewis is not only making you boys, but he is making us coal, is making some of us coal operators ourself now.” But we was at the lowest ebb, when this thing, when this union come back in. I remember that so well. They paid honor to him to that extent —— that "He's not only making you boys, but is making some of us coal operators too. Now that's when we had the Blue, had got the Blue Eagle and all that stuff. And it was not merely competitive barg—; one time, one time even with the coal operators, it was the most competitive thing in this world.
[End of Tape]
Description
Elverton, Lookout, Coal mining, other mining towns in the 1920s and 30s.
Date Created
09/25/1980
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