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Oral History Interview with Carol Hoffecker
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Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board Oral History Collection, Newcastle County School segregation/desegregation interviews. Interviewee Mrs. Carol Hoffecker. Interviewer Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted at the Historical Society of Delaware in Wilmington, Delaware on August 8, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History Project. Mrs. Hoffecker, what is your full name?
Carol Hoffecker: Carol E. Hoffecker.
Oloye Adeyemon: And can you please spell that for me?
Carol Hoffecker: H-O-F-F-E-C-K-E-R.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthdate?
Carol Hoffecker: December 29, 1938.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?
Carol Hoffecker: In Wilmington, Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And you're a current resident of Wilmington?
Carol Hoffecker: Well, Hockessin, Delaware, a near suburb.
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what were your parents' names?
Carol Hoffecker: Kathryn Zebley Hoffecker and Ralph Charles Hoffecker.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what did they do for a living?
Carol Hoffecker: My mother was a homemaker, and my father worked at the DuPont Company. He was a clerical person. And they were both graduates of Wilmington High School.
Oloye Adeyemon: DuPont-DuPont was a major employer in this area.
Carol Hoffecker: It was the major employer, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even in the state, it was; is that correct?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, but particularly in-in this area, it was the company.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did you have brothers and sisters?
Carol Hoffecker: I have a younger brother.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is his name?
Carol Hoffecker: John Ralph Hoffecker.
Oloye Adeyemon: Does he still live in Delaware?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, he does.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what do you do for a living?
Carol Hoffecker: I'm a Professor of History at the University of Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And how long have been in that position?
Carol Hoffecker: Uh, since 1973.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what school did you go to, what college?
Carol Hoffecker: I went to the University of Delaware for my undergraduate degree and went to Harvard University for my graduate degree.
Oloye Adeyemon: You have a master's in history?
Carol Hoffecker: I have a-a PhD.
Oloye Adeyemon: A PhD in history. Please forgive me.
Carol Hoffecker: That's okay. It's not a big deal. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, and, uh, you were a graduate of the school system here.
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, I was. I went through the-the Delaware school system from 1944 to 1956.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. What high school did you graduate from?
Carol Hoffecker: Mount Pleasant High School.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, before that, you were—
Carol Hoffecker: Uh, before that, I—my whole school career was in the Mount Pleasant District.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Carol Hoffecker: I went to Edgemoor Elementary and then the Mount Pleasant Junior High and Mount Pleasant Senior High.
Oloye Adeyemon: Before we talk about the conditions in your school, I would like to, if I can, ask for a combination of your experiences and the things that you know first-hand or second-hand information concerning the area—the area's history.
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And also, as a historian in which you can help us to understand about the development of—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - of going back, uh, to the settlement of this area—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - how it was settled.
Carol Hoffecker: Uh, well the-the Swedes were the original European settlers and that—when they came, there were, uh, several Indian tribes in the vicinity, um, along the Brandywine, uh, the Lenni Lenape. Um, the Swedes didn't form a town here. They had intentions to, but they never got around to it. They did have a fort nearby. It wasn't really until—
Oloye Adeyemon: Approximately what year would that have been?
Carol Hoffecker: That was in the 1630s—1638 that they first came. Uh, it wasn't for another century, until the 1730s, that the town of Wilmington was created. It was created by a Quaker businessman coming down from Pennsylvania who, uh, wanted to find a place where they could ship grain. Um, there were farms in this area that were raising wheat, and, uh, they wanted to encourage that, and they could also set up mills for grinding the wheat.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year would that be?
Carol Hoffecker: Um, it was in the 1730s, say, 1736, 1938, in that period. But, by the 1740s, they were building mills. And, by the time of the American Revolution, the mills are in full production, and, uh—and it's become a rather substantial town.
Oloye Adeyemon: So the early settlement would have been, at least at Wilmington area, it would have been Quakers.
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, mainly in the-in the 18th century, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, as time goes and it begins to—uh, there's more development—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, are-are there others that come—were there other Quakers here?
Carol Hoffecker: Oh, very quickly. Yes. In fact, I-I doubt that they were ever a majority. They were just the people who had, uh, the wherewithal to start the-the businesses. Um, a lot of Scots-Irish Presbyterians, um, some Anglican, some leftover Swedes and Fins from the, uh, descendants from the earlier period. I-I think that slavery was introduced here quite early, but I don't know that there were ever a lot of slaves in the immediate Wilmington area. Um, there were some, but not a large number. And, in the—and there were also a number of free blacks, um, in Delaware and especially in this region.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now some of those that might have been in this region that were free—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, would have been in Wilmington itself?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were there any skilled craftsmen that—
Carol Hoffecker: Yes. In fact, um, when old—what's now Old Swedes Church was built in 1698. Uh, the mason for that church was a white man from Philadelphia, and his masons assistant, who I'm sure did masonry work, too, was a black man. So I-I think that, from early on, there were a number of-of black people who were skilled craftsmen. There was a black shipbuilder on the Brandywine Creek. It was one of the major shipbuilders in the, um, late 18th, early 19th century. There was a black woman in Wilmington who had-had an ice cream shop, one of the first in the country. She may or may not have been the creator of ice cream, but she was certainly—
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember her name?
Carol Hoffecker: Not offhand. But I could get it for you. Um, so, yeah, there-there were quite a few, uh, black people who were skilled. Another skill that was very typically found in the free black community were, um, people who fished in the river, oyster men, and shad fishermen, uh, which played into blacks starting catering businesses.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So would you say that there probably would have been a greater concentration, as far as free blacks were concerned, in the Wilmington area and a great concentration of enslaved blacks in the southern part of the state?
Carol Hoffecker: Absolutely. No question about it.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, in the southern part of the state, there were tobacco farms.
Carol Hoffecker: There were. Although, by the mid—by the middle of the 18th century, say by the 1750s, um, that is really going out fast and wheat is coming in as the major crop in the—for sale in the state. Um, and I think there are several reasons for that. Uh, one is that, um, tobacco wears out the soil. Another is that, as it became clear that-that the Penn's were going to win on the—at the peninsula, at least down through Sussex County was going to be owned by them and not by the Calvert family, um, attention focused more toward Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. And-and, of course, the way rivers flow, they go toward the Delaware. And-and Philadelphia had become the major city on the Delaware, and Wilmington was rising, and they were wheat shipping places.
Oloye Adeyemon: Explain to me the-the distinction between the Calvert's and the Penn's. What was going into that?
Carol Hoffecker: Oh, that-that was a fight over whether Delaware was going to be part of Maryland or part of Pennsylvania essentially. That was what-what they were battling over. And, of course, Maryland was focused on the-the Chesapeake and was a tobacco raising state. It was part of the Chesapeake world.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Carol Hoffecker: And, um, Pennsylvania was-was part of a middle-Atlantic, Delaware River oriented, wheat-growing region.
Oloye Adeyemon: I think it's important to point out too that, up until after the turn of the 19th century, there were slaves in Philadelphia as well—
Carol Hoffecker: Oh, sure there were. But-but wheat growing by its very nature was less labor intensive than raising the tobacco. So there was less call on bringing in—bringing more slaves into the state once we made this transition and also a greater, uh, emphasis on freeing-freeing black people. And, um, also because the- the Quakers and then the Methodists became, uh, involved in-in freeing slaves and-and came to re-regard slavery is immoral, that had an influence. So then, by the time we get to the revolution, there are quite a few free blacks in Delaware, particularly in—up here in Newcastle County in-in this region.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, given that tobacco—the growing of tobacco kind of died out—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - did that accompany a decline in the number of enslaved people in the south, or did those that were enslaved tend to do other things, or were those the places that continued to push back? What-what were the conditions in which those who continued to be enslaved were after the-the—
Carol Hoffecker: Well, those who could—the-the number of slaves in Delaware declines from about 1750 on until 1860 census and 1865 when slavery ended. Um, so that, by the time you get to the 1860 census, there are only 2,000 slaves in Delaware, and there's almost 20,000 black people. Um, we had the highest percentage of free blacks per size of the population of the state of—as a whole—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Carol Hoffecker: - of any state in—yeah, I think maybe of any state, period.
Oloye Adeyemon: G-going back to the to those that were enslaved—
Carol Hoffecker: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - what were conditions like for them during the 1800s after tobacco declined? What-what were they doing? Were-were they still—
Carol Hoffecker: They were—
Oloye Adeyemon: - concentrated?
Carol Hoffecker: They were still—they were concentrated in the southern part of the state. They were almost-almost exclusively, I would say, on farms. But then most people lived on the farm.
Oloye Adeyemon: On the farm, correct.
Carol Hoffecker: Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Would they have been growing cash crops, or would it have been more-more-more of a-more of a, um, situation where they were assisting in whatever was going on in that location?
Carol Hoffecker: I think-I think so. I think they were engaged in general agriculture, mainly, and that could be any number of things. Um, in the earlier period, I'm sure that the work of chopping down the forests to create the farms in the first place was-was a big job for slaves.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Carol Hoffecker: But, as that ceased to be so much involved, why, I think just general agriculture.
Oloye Adeyemon: What can you tell us about the, uh, hub of the Underground Railroad that existed here in the—what can you tell us about the Underground Railroad that existed here?
Carol Hoffecker: Well—and let me just say a couple of things about the nature of the Wilmington area. You've heard about "Big Quarterly," no doubt, you know about the Peter Spencer and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Can you tell us a little more. Like, I don't know that we know.
Carol Hoffecker: Well, um, Wilmington and Philadelphia both lay claim to-to being founding centers for, uh, independent black churches. And Wilmington was the place where they—um, I can't say all the name of it now, but the African, uh, Methodist Church was-was founded. And the man who founded it was Peter Spencer, who had been a member of a white church that's just down the street here that had relegated black people to the upstairs and then complained about them making noise up there. And he got disgusted. And so the Methodists created a black church, Ezion, which, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Excuse me?
Carol Hoffecker: Ezion Methodist.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Carol Hoffecker: E-Z-I-O-N.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Carol Hoffecker: It's still in existence. Uh, and it was for all the black Methodists. I can't remember the exact dates of this, but it was in the early 19th century and—uh, 1810 or some such thing. And—
Oloye Adeyemon: This would have been free blacks were most of them?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes. I would imagine so, yes. Um, but the trouble with that was that the white, uh, Methodist bishops still cont—had control over that church. And Peter Spencer and some of his friends didn't want that. They wanted to have complete control over their own church, not-not be, you know, under the authority of white people. So they started this African Union Methodist Church.
Um, and it was framed on the way that the other Methodist Church worked. So it had quarterly meetings—um, session meetings of the branches because they stablished branches in several places. And the big quarterly, which was the-the main one, was in August, every August. And it became, uh, common for, um, slave masters throughout the state to allow their people to go to Wilmington to big quarterly. Um, and, of course, there were a lot of free blacks who came as well. There's been an effort in recent years to reestablish the "Big Quarterly," and it's been fairly successful.
Uh, but, any rate, so this place had a certain resonance for free black people and-and black people in general. Um, and I think that undoubtedly had some effect on the, um, Underground Railroad here. For one thing, it meant that black people who were slaves in the southern part of the state had occasion to come to Wilmington to see—you know, see how to get here and get back. Um, the other thing is, of course, um, that several of the most famous escapees from slavery, most notably Harriet Tubman, um, coming up from, uh—from Eastern Shore, Maryland came through Delaware in order to get to Pennsylvania. They chose to go through Delaware rather than-than to come up through Maryland. It was—you know, you could walk. And I-I always think that nobody, nobody knew the geography of Delaware like Harriet Tubman did because she-she came and went through Delaware many, many times.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though there were posters out and everything else.
Carol Hoffecker: Oh, yeah, she would disguise herself. She was very, very, uh, intrepid and smart and, um—and she had enormous faith.
Oloye Adeyemon: Didn't Garrett operate—
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, he—and he was-he was just on the next street over here on Shipley Street. Uh, and she and he worked together very closely. So, yeah. So-so I think that there was quite a confluence of the Underground Railroad coming through Wilmington or nearby.
Oloye Adeyemon: He was a Quaker wasn't he?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, he was a Quaker, and he-he was active in this out of his conscience.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, as a result of the laws that, uh, were, you know, crafted to discourage the Underground Railroad, Garrett lost all of his property.
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, he did. Yes, he did. But, you see, this was the nature of this community that, when he lost all his property, he started up his business again, and he got customers again, so he was able to rebuild his business. So there were enough people in Wilmington who respected him and what he did that they would buy from him because, otherwise, I mean, he was a iron merchant. Uh, you know, they could have bought from other-other merchants. They didn't have to be restricted to him. Um, he-he was, I think, respected by a lot of people in the Wilmington area who wouldn't have had the guts to do what he did. But, you know, we all are sort of like that. You know, we respect other people wo stick their necks out in ways that we think are right and just but we aren't quite willing to do ourselves.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would it be safe to say that, even though Delaware was a slave state, that the Wilmington area would have been some of the refuge for, um, not only those escaping but even for those that were free?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, I think that's true. Um-um, there were several black people of some substance. Mary Ann Shadd, for example, who founded the newspaper up in Canada, uh, had been here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you happen to know what the name of that newspaper was?
Carol Hoffecker: No, but I-I don't off the top of my head. I'm getting old.
Oloye Adeyemon: That's all right.
Carol Hoffecker: [Laughter] But there's an article about it.
Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 20:15].
Carol Hoffecker: We can get—yes, yeah, we can-we can get that easily enough. Um, this was a place, I think, in the-in the larger black community that—where there were some respected leaders.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, by the time that, uh, the Civil War ends—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, roughly estimating—now-now I understand that, you know, you don't have the exact figures—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but can you tell me approximately, uh—or really what proportion of the population in Wilmington itself might have been black?
Carol Hoffecker: Can I answer that tomorrow?
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes.
Carol Hoffecker: I think it may be as high as 20 percent but it may be as low as 10 percent. I just don't remember. I used to know all this stuff, but I don't know it as well as I used to.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do know approximately what it would be today?
Carol Hoffecker: I imagine it's 70 percent or something like that.
Oloye Adeyemon: At what point, approximately, would you say that there was a shift from blacks being the minority to being the majority?
Carol Hoffecker: Well, you know, I mean, I have—I can get you the specific census data to tell you specifically, but I would say that that probably was in about the 1970 census maybe, something around there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have a rough idea of where that proportion might have stood at the time that the court case occurred?
Carol Hoffecker: Uh, okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: Approximate guess. Not—we—
Carol Hoffecker: Um, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - can always footnote it.
Carol Hoffecker: Sure. At the time of the court case, I would think that maybe it was 20 percent black, 80 percent white more or less. That changed rapidly. And I don't think that the court case was the main reason it changed. I mean—
Oloye Adeyemon: What-what are some of the reasons?
Carol Hoffecker: Um, I think the main reason it changed was because, uh, in the post-war era, there was a great deal of-of building and construction of suburban housing, there was FHA backed, um, construction and-and for builders' loans as well as for, uh, buyers'. Um, and, um, this encouraged people who, you know, had a choice to-to move into a new house in the suburbs with a bigger yard when—
Oloye Adeyemon: Would there al-also have been an influx of blacks from the south?
Carol Hoffecker: This is true. Uh, but that all presumes a change in the way real estate market operated. The real estate market here, uh, ver-very much restricted where black people could live in the city of Wilmington, um, until—I know it was—um, until in—well into the 1960s. Delaware legislature, as late as 1968, refused to pass a, uh—an open housing bill. It was only when the federal law was passed in the wake of the riots that we got open housing in Delaware. And, um, while it's true that, by the 1960s, you do see, um, black families moving into neighborhoods in Wilmington that had either to—um, had not been open to them. Um, it—I think it's safe to say that, until the open housing legislation nationally, uh, the real estate industry in this community, um, had internal rules of its own that limited and-and created regions that—where black people could live. And, of course, much to the benefit of the real estate industry, they could-they could, uh, strike fear into the hearts of white residents who would quickly move out, and-and then they'd resell the houses—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Carol Hoffecker: - at much high-higher rates to-to-to black families.
Oloye Adeyemon: There's a significant, um, population of European immigrants in this area.
Carol Hoffecker: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that a result of DuPont?
Carol Hoffecker: No. Um, the European immigrants in the late 19th century—true out at Hagley, you know, out where the DuPont yards were, they were, um, uh, actively recruiting Irish people particularly, uh, through the whole 19th century. But Hagley was really removed from the city and rightly so because it could blow up at any time—
[Laughter]
Carol Hoffecker: - making power. Um, which is—they say one reason why Irish were willing to go there because, you know, they were so poor. They were desperate. They were willing to work in a powder yard. Um, but, in Wilmington, Wilmington was primarily involved in-in, uh, several industries, railroad car construction, building steamboats, um, foundry work of all sorts, including making car wheels, um, carriage making and leather tanning. And those industries all employed a lot of immigrant labor.
Oloye Adeyemon: So we're talking the 1800s now?
Carol Hoffecker: Irish—yeah. Irish, Germans, Poles, Italians, um, Russian Jews, primarily, those are the big groups that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Once they enter the population, do their numbers remain true and stable? Do they remain or go onto other places?
Carol Hoffecker: Um, I think their numbers remained rather stable.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was there friction between either the earlier white community, particularly the Irish, with incoming backs who-who were competing for those jobs?
Carol Hoffecker: Undoubtedly. But I'm trying to think about where I could—in my reservoir of information. Um, there were certainly a lot of jobs that, by custom, only went to white people. And I have to assume that the owners of the businesses went along with this because they didn't want their work-workers rising up in, uh, wrath. And, when you look at pictures, for example, of the biggest of the companies that built the steamboats and the-and the railroad cars in the 1880s when they had, uh, a book done about them. And there are lots of group photos of the workers in this shop and that shop, and they're all obviously very, um, low-level workmen, mechanics, and they got big sledgehammers on their shoulders, and they're all white, every one of them.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, at least during that period, there wouldn't have been a lot of competition where blacks could even get those jobs.
Carol Hoffecker: That's right. I think that—I—definitely true. A-another big employer in the city was the Pennsylvania Railroad and the B&O Railroad too. Now B&O, when they built their tracks for Wilmington or the Pennsylvania when they elevated their tracks, they hired Italian workmen.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, when blacks did come and stay, what opportunities—I'm not speaking about the free blacks, but, in the 1900s, what drew blacks and what kept them here?
Carol Hoffecker: I would imagine that, compared to, uh, other groups, there were fewer things to hold them in the community. Um, and I would imagine that there was a greater instance of-of people moving out and others moving in, in the black community—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Carol Hoffecker: - than, uh, anyone has ever documented. Um, there were a lot of black people, like, you know, when farmers didn't need them anymore and said, "Sayonara coming up to Wilmington." And I would think that black people who had already arrived here or had been born here and saw the-the paucity of opportunity would move on to Philadelphia or somewhere else where there were-were more opportunities.
Oloye Adeyemon: So—
Carol Hoffecker: But anyway—
Oloye Adeyemon: - you're saying they might have agreed to the transition.
Carol Hoffecker: Yeah, I-I would think that highly likely. Um, but what kinds of jobs could they get? Uh, Draymond was a big one, uh, for males, uh, you know, being a wagoneer, um, working, uh, as a river man, as I mentioned, um, working, uh, building the streets and sewers even though they competed with whites for those-those jobs a good bit, um, I think working for-for contractors. I mean, I'm-I'm judging from looking at photographs I've seen and that kind of evidence. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: How-how-how much of—
Carol Hoffecker: - working in stables.
Oloye Adeyemon: - an employer of blacks was DuPont?
Carol Hoffecker: Very limited, I think, to my knowledge, uh, very limited indeed. In the—DuPont out at the-at the powder works, as I say, employed Irish people. Once they built the DuPont building, and, you know, in 1906 and started working—the work there, um, they employed black people in-in ever increasing numbers and categories but always within very restricted categories until relatively recent times. Um, like, I can remember when they made the switch over to having black elevator operators, [laughter] you know, uh, or black men who roamed the halls and-and put in new light bulbs when they burned out, uh, that sort of thing. Um, but when-when they would make those kinds of transitions, I think it would be—you know, one day, it was white people doing it, and the next day, black people. You know, there-there wasn't much black and white doing the same sorts of jobs kind of thing. Uh, and that would have been true on the railroad very much. Um, there were jobs for-for black people on the railroad, and there were jobs for white people on the railroad.
Oloye Adeyemon: Has it been documented the salaries were not the same for the same job of somebody else?
Carol Hoffecker: I-I-I'm sure it can be. I mean, I-I think—now, women, you see a huge number of black women working and—
Oloye Adeyemon: What kinds of jobs were they?
Carol Hoffecker: They are laundresses, and they are, um, housemaids. Um, those are overwhelmingly the biggest jobs for black women.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would, uh, Delaware have drawn any people for those kinds of occupations from New Jersey?
Carol Hoffecker: I-I-I wouldn't think very much so, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Because there was a sizable black population in Southern New Jersey.
Carol Hoffecker: Right. Now, you know, I—if—I would imagine Southern New Jersey black people tended to move toward Northern New Jersey rather than coming across the river, uh, to Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: So most of the people that we're talking about, then, are residents of Delaware?
Carol Hoffecker: I think that there are two ways people get here from—you know, if they're black. One way is they walk up from the peninsula. And the other way is they take the train up from the south. And it is on the major railroad. Um, so I don't think you see very many black people gravitating to this place from anywhere north of here. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: So we are we talking about a segregated area, uh—
Carol Hoffecker: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the 50s?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: We're talking about, uh, an area that may be different from other areas of the South that had cases of this type because of the size of the black community.
Carol Hoffecker: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the black community, um, comparing it maybe to, um, South Carolina or Virginia, would have been more transitory.
Carol Hoffecker: I think that's fair to say.
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, and I'm sure there'll be research done to kind of document that. But that has been what my research is seeing. Okay? I just wanted to [crosstalk 34:06].
Carol Hoffecker: Right. I also think that the black middle class here was relatively small and must have felt very isolated. Um, I think it was relatively small, um, for several reasons. One is because we weren't quite as segregated as places further south, um, and also because, you know, why—who would want to remain in this part? Louis Redding is, of course, the one we all know about, uh, whose father insisted that he come back to Wilmington to practice law after he got his degree at Harvard and passed the bar exam when he would have given his eyeteeth to have gone anywhere but here. Um, but most people didn't have fathers who were quite as powerful in the system as Louis Redding, so, you know, given the opportunity to go elsewhere if you had that-that kind of credential, you would have.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. I understand that his family was a part of the black community of Wilmington.
Carol Hoffecker: Oh, absolutely, sure. No question about it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wasn't his mother a school teacher?
Carol Hoffecker: His sister Gwendolyn was a school teacher. I don't know about his mother, but his sister was.
Oloye Adeyemon: And his father, I understand—
Carol Hoffecker: His father was a post office worker.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. But there was a black community, and they were part of it.
Carol Hoffecker: Yes, there was, and they were very much a part of it. And it all rotated—a good bit of it rotated around Howard High School.
Oloye Adeyemon: They would graduate from Howard?
Carol Hoffecker: Uh, well, his-his one sister was—yes, they would have gone to Howard School. That's right. Back in the—yes, in the early days when I was over on Orange Street, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: It was originally on Orange Street?
Carol Hoffecker: Yes. And then it was moved over in 1928. Pierre S DuPont built the present Howard School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Can you remember, uh, what of Orange it was?
Carol Hoffecker: At 12th and Orange.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when they moved, where did they move to?
Carol Hoffecker: Um, well, they're on the-the, uh, east side. I don't know which street they're on, but that's easy to find out. It's still there.
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and when the second school building?
Carol Hoffecker: 1928.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the first one was built?
Carol Hoffecker: I would say in the 1870s or '80s.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now help me understand this because, while the black population is concentrated, here, there were blacks in other areas of the state.
Carol Hoffecker: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was it the case that blacks could not get a high school education in Delaware [unintelligible 36:53]?
Carol Hoffecker: Um, yes, and no. I mean, if you're talking about high schools, that was true. But Delaware State College, which was founded in Dover in 1891 under the second Morrill bill, um, provided what was, in essence, a high school education, um, as a prep to the college. And I think that was what most young people came and-and got.
Oloye Adeyemon: What years would that have been?
Carol Hoffecker: From 1891 on.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Carol Hoffecker: Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: So there was that opportunity for—
Carol Hoffecker: From—yeah, from the 1890s on, there would have been a modest opportunity in-in Dover.
Oloye Adeyemon: But we're still talking about limited opportunity.
Carol Hoffecker: Very.
Oloye Adeyemon: Long distances to travel.
Carol Hoffecker: Very limited.
Oloye Adeyemon: It would not be a situation where someone could commute. There would have to be someone they could stay with in order to go to school.
Carol Hoffecker: Absolutely. And this is a state that was very reluctant to pass truancy laws until-until well into the 20th century.
Oloye Adeyemon: Are we talking white or black now?
Carol Hoffecker: Both because farmers believed that being a farm worker didn't need it—didn't need all that reading, writing, and arithmetic. And I think they felt that way about white children as well as black, but they certainly felt it about the black students—kids.
Oloye Adeyemon: Even though he supported the segregated system, can it safely be said that DuPont-DuPont did care about education?
Carol Hoffecker: Oh, yes. I mean, I think he was shocked at the—how bad education was in the state of Delaware.
Oloye Adeyemon: He-he actually personally got involved in—
Carol Hoffecker: Absolutely.
Oloye Adeyemon: - providing not only schools for whites but schools for blacks.
Carol Hoffecker: He deliberately built schools for blacks first because he knew that the state legislature would, uh, oppose him at every turn, um, if they thought for one instant that they were going to have to raise more money from general taxation for the support of black schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, this has been very helpful. I want, in the second half of the interview, to concentrate more on your experiences as a student—
Carol Hoffecker: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the schools, but I-I-I think that, uh, this has a lot of good context.
Carol Hoffecker: Okay. And I-I'll get you some more specific data. [Laughter]
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. And the transcript will be in the [laughter 39:20]
Carol Hoffecker: Okay. Good.
[End of Audio]
Description
Hoffecker attended the Mount Pleasant School District, attending from 1944 to 1956. The interview provides a historian’s point of view of the development of the region around the Belton (Bulah) v. Gebhart case as well as a first-hand account of a white students experience during segregation before the case.
Date Created
01/11/2024
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