Oral History Interview with John Andrew Alexander, Natalie W. Rothenburg, and Fred L. Dunn Pt. 1

Transcript

Transcript

Frederick Dunn Jr.: This is not my best side. Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection, Washington, D.C., segregation desegregation interviews. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Mrs. Rothenburg, Mr. Alexander— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - and Dr. Dunn. Interviewer: Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mrs. Rothenburg in Maryland Leisure World’s in Silver Springs, Maryland, August 15th, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History Project. Mrs. Rothenburg, what is your full name? Natalie Rothenburg: Natalie White Rothenburg. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, Mr. Alexander, what is your full name? John Alexander: Uh, John Andrew Alexander. Oloye Adeyemon: And Dr. Dunn, what is your full name? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Frederick Luther Dunn Junior. Oloye Adeyemon: Again, please. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Frederick Luther Dunn Junior. Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, would you each be willing to share with us your birthdate and where you were born? Natalie Rothenburg: Okay. I didn’t want these guys to know— Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, I’m sorry. Natalie Rothenburg: No. I’ll tell you. October 19th, 1929. Oloye Adeyemon: And your birth place? Natalie Rothenburg: Washington, D.C. John Alexander: Uh, December 27, 1927. Oloye Adeyemon: And your birth place? John Alexander: Birth place, Mineral Wells, Texas. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And mine’s, uh, December the 30th, 1922, born in Washington, D.C. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. What were your parents’ names? Natalie Rothenburg: Um, well, uh, my father’s name—well, he was a dentist. He—uh, Douglas Alfred White, and my mother’s name was Louise Zimmerli White. Oloye Adeyemon: And were they born in Washington, D.C. as well? Natalie Rothenburg: No. No. My mother was born in New Jersey, and my father was born in Massachusetts. Oloye Adeyemon: And you did say your father was a dentist? Natalie Rothenburg: Yes. Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And he was here in Washington, D.C.? Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Because he came to school at Georgetown when they had a medical— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Natalie Rothenburg: - uh, facility. Oloye Adeyemon: That was where he graduated from? Natalie Rothenburg: And, uh, so he just stayed. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Natalie Rothenburg: I mean, well, he—yeah, he stayed. Let’s just put it that way— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: - ’cause he-he—uh, um, had friends, uh, that wanted him to come in the service, and my father was used to being, uh, associated with the military, went to a military school— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - as a young child. And, uh, so he went to the Mexican border, and he came back and went in World War I. Then he came back, went in practice, and then he went in World War II, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Where was his practice located? Natalie Rothenburg: Uh, 14th and [unintelligible 03:03] Street. Oloye Adeyemon: And did your mother work? Natalie Rothenburg: No. Not—well, not after she got married. She worked a little bit before for the Union Pacific Railroad. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And did you have brothers and sisters? Natalie Rothenburg: I have a br—had a brother. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: What was his name? Natalie Rothenburg: Douglas— Oloye Adeyemon: And is he all— Natalie Rothenburg: - White Junior. Oloye Adeyemon: He was also born here in Washington, D.C.? Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what-what do you do for a living? What did you do for a living? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, uh, as I say, I worked for the Interior Department for, uh, a few years and then, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: What did you do with them? Natalie Rothenburg: I worked the geological survey, mapmaking. I was a cartographic aid. And then I, um, I—when I quit work to have children, I stayed home. But my husband, uh, was in advertising and opened his own business. So— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - I helped him with that. I mean— Oloye Adeyemon: What was the name of his business? Natalie Rothenburg: Rothenburg Advertising Agency. Oloye Adeyemon: Here in Washington, D.C.? Natalie Rothenburg: Here-here in Washington, D.C. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mr. Alexander, what, uh, were your parents names? John Alexander: Uh, father’s name was Robert Caesar Alexander Senior. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: He was born in Tennessee. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And my mother was, uh, Osa 04:17. She didn’t like that name. Osa Bell Alex—uh, Haynes, H-A-Y-N-E-S. And she was born in, uh, Mineral Wells, Texas. Oloye Adeyemon: What did your parents do for a living? John Alexander: My mother was a homemaker. My father was a dentist. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: He graduated from the dental college in, uh, uh—of Tennessee University—the University of Tennessee. Oloye Adeyemon: And he came here to Washington, D.C. to practice? John Alexander: No. No, no, no. [Unintelligible 04:44] story after that. I didn’t—no, he was, uh—I didn’t come here until about three years after my father died. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: I was—yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: How old were you then? John Alexander: Eleven. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And did your mother remarry, or she raised you— John Alexander: No. She— Oloye Adeyemon: Did she have help raising you? John Alexander: Well, I had four brothers, see. Oloye Adeyemon: Older? John Alexander: Older—four older brothers. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, my. Oloye Adeyemon: What were their names? John Alexander: They’re all deceased. Uh, Robert Caesar Alexander Junior— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - Raymond Milton Alexander, Charles Haynes Alexander— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - and Harold Bell Alexander. Oloye Adeyemon: And how much older than you was your oldest brother? John Alexander: The youngest was eight years older than me— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. John Alexander: - and, uh, Robert, uh, Junior was 15 years older. Oloye Adeyemon: So they pretty much were able to provide you with a lot of— John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - role, uh—what did, um—did you say your mother worked after your father— John Alexander: She worked at the, uh, United States Treasury during World War II. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Um— Oloye Adeyemon: What did she do there? John Alexander: Well, counted bonds, mostly. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And did she continue to work after the war was over? John Alexander: No. No. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. John Alexander: They ha—they fired a whole bunch of ’em so they wouldn’t— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - wouldn’t have to pay ’em retirement. Oloye Adeyemon: And-and what did you do as a career? What kind of work did you do? John Alexander: Uh, I worked with, uh, U.S. Department of Agriculture, primarily in, uh, in the field of, uh, employee travel and accounting. Oloye Adeyemon: Were you based here in Washington? John Alexander: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Washington and Belso 06:17, Belso, Maryland. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Uh, Dr. uh, Dunn, what were your parents’ names? Frederick Dunn Jr.: My dad was, uh, uh, Frederick Luther Dunn Senior, and my mother was Ida Isabel Williams Dunn. And, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Where were they born? Frederick Dunn Jr.: He was born in Germantown, Maryland, right on—up the road, and my mother was born in Johnson City, Tennessee. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what did your parents do for a living? Frederick Dunn Jr.: My dad was a machinist, and my mother was a registered nurse. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Was he a machinist here in town, or— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. At the-at the Washington Navy yard. Oloye Adeyemon: At the Washington— Frederick Dunn Jr.: He learned his trade, uh, in the Navy at the Navy yard. Oloye Adeyemon: And you said your mother did what? Frederick Dunn Jr.: She was a registered nurse. Oloye Adeyemon: Registered nurse. What hospital did she work at? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, it would’ve been—uh, she started—she graduated National Homeopathic in Washington— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and ended wherever— Oloye Adeyemon: Private duty or— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Mostly private duty because of the depression and all that. It was, uh, quite a different story. Oloye Adeyemon: Did you have brothers and sisters? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Had a brother, younger brother, and, uh—Raymond Eugene Dunn, and he was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Just the one? Frederick Dunn Jr.: As far as I know. Oloye Adeyemon: So there’s some difference in your ages. Uh, you were not all at the same school at the same time, but you’re all alumni of Central High. Is that correct? Natalie Rothenburg: Correct. Frederick Dunn Jr.: That’s correct. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Uh, prior to going to Central High, had you all gone to the same junior high school? Natalie Rothenburg: I doubt it. I-I went to Powell. John Alexander: I went to Powell. Natalie Rothenburg: Did you go to Powell? John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: And did you— Frederick Dunn Jr.: I went to MacFarland Junior High. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Can you tell me the location of Central and also the locations of the junior high schools that you went to? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, that, uh—it was located, um— John Alexander: It was Hyatt Place, wasn’t it? Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah, Hyatt Place. John Alexander: Between— Natalie Rothenburg: Between 14th and 15th. John Alexander: And Park Road and Irving. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: And where was the junior high that you both went— John Alexander: That was the junior high. Natalie Rothenburg: That’s the junior high. Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, [unintelligible 08:28]. Natalie Rothenburg: Where’s the high school? 13th and Clifton. Oloye Adeyemon: Thirteen and Clifton. John Alexander: Northwest, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: And where was the junior high that you went to? Frederick Dunn Jr.: It would be, uh, Georgia Avenue and Upshur Street— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - around that area. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So we’re still talkin’ about northwest? Interviewee 2: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: And with you, it wasn’t that you had moved out of, uh, the area that you’d been in. It’s that these were junior highs that fit into the same high schools. Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. No. They were—they didn’t—I lived in Maryland at that time. We moved to Maryland. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, the junior high you went to was— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Within the district. You see, if-if your parent—one of your parents or both worked with the government— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and you lived in Maryland or Virginia, you could go to a district school. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And, if you went to the district school, if you were living in Maryland, you probably went to Central. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: If you were in Virginia, you probably went to Western. Although the district, at that time, if-if you had a particular course, say, at-at McKinley Tech, the technical high school, if you wanted to go there, I-I don’t think there’d been any problem as to where you would go because they seem to be very much interested in what, you know, the students wanted to-to do in those days. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Let me go back to something you said. You said Western High— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Uh-huh. Oloye Adeyemon: - would’ve been the school that you would’ve gone to if you were working with the government in Virginia? Frederick Dunn Jr.: That would be—yeah, generally, where you would go. Oloye Adeyemon: Is that because it’s a school on the south side of town? Frederick Dunn Jr.: It wasn’t in the south side. It was kind of in the west side, wasn’t it? Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: It was in the west side? Natalie Rothenburg: And it was closer to Virginia, actually— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: - then, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: So is it southwest? Natalie Rothenburg: No. No. It’s—it was northwest, but I’m saying— Oloye Adeyemon: Both of these were northwest schools? Natalie Rothenburg: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: But I’m saying, it’s closer to the— Oloye Adeyemon: It’s closer to— Natalie Rothenburg: - river, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: Okay. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, this junior high that you went to was in northwest, as well as the junior— Frederick Dunn Jr.: At—yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was that the junior high that fed into Central, or did it feed into another high school? And, if so, how did you end up at Central? John Alexander: No. It did—fed into Roosevelt High School. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. That’s right. But ours didn’t. Oloye Adeyemon: Why did you not go to— Natalie Rothenburg: O-ours— John Alexander: I stayed into, uh, Central. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Why didn’t I go? Natalie Rothenburg: [Crosstalk 10:47] Central, yeah? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Because they said that that’s where you went. Also, my girlfriend was gonna go to the Central, so. Oloye Adeyemon: But-but you did—you-you normally would’ve went to Roo-Roosevelt High School. Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. If-if I were living in the district at that time, where I was living on Water Street before I moved— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - to Maryland— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - I would’ve gone to Central. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand now. I understand. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Or I could’ve gone to Tech. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: But when I moved out, then I was too—uh, uh, Central was, uh, the one that we went to. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Uh, Mr. Alexander, in your case, you did not go to elementary school here in Washington, D.C. John Alexander: I went to—I—yes. From the, uh, middle of the fourth grade through the sixth grade, I went to— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. John Alexander: - uh, Henry D. Cooke School. Oloye Adeyemon: And was that also in the northwest? John Alexander: That’s in the northwest. Natalie Rothenburg: Yes. It is. Oloye Adeyemon: Where was that located? John Alexander: That’s located, uh, right-right off Columbia Road. I can’t—I don’t know the street it’s on. I can’t remember the— Oloye Adeyemon: But it’s on Columbia? Natalie Rothenburg: Off of Columbia Road. John Alexander: Off of Columbia Road. Natalie Rothenburg: It’s in, uh, [unintelligible 11:45], yeah. John Alexander: Near Ontario Road, but, uh— Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. John Alexander: - a little farther east. Natalie Rothenburg: I can’t remember either. John Alexander: A little farther east, uh— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: You went there too? Natalie Rothenburg: I went to H.D. Cooke School, yes. Oloye Adeyemon: So you all—you-you-you both went to the same schools, but because of the difference in your age— Natalie Rothenburg: We went at different times, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - you went at different times. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And what elementary school did you go to? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I started out in Baltimore— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - Virginia— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and then back to the district— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and so I was in Parkview Elementary School. Oloye Adeyemon: Would that have been the last one you went to prior to going to junior high? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And where was it located? Frederick Dunn Jr.: It would’ve been Water Street and, uh, Newton Place. Oloye Adeyemon: You were gonna add somethin’? Natalie Rothenburg: I was just gonna say that, uh, it seemed to me that when we went to school, uh, you had to go—generally speaking, you had to go to the schools that were closest to where— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: - that were in your framework. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: So H.D. Cooke, I only lived a few blocks from there. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: And then I only lived a few blocks in another direction, only a few blocks from Powell Junior High— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - and just then whatever it was down to Central, which was, again, the same basic—I mean, that was at 13th and Clifton, and I lived 14th Street. So, you know, I mean, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What would you say, uh, about the s—education that you received in the Washington school-school system during those years? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, uh, uh, you know, at the time, I don’t think you’re thinkin’ about it, really. I mean, I don’t— Oloye Adeyemon: As a—as—looking back at it. Natalie Rothenburg: Looking back at it? Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t know. I thought it was pretty good overall. John Alexander: My impression, thinking about it afterwards, was that you can get a good education at a, uh, high school in D.C., but you had to work for it. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. John Alexander: You could also just sort of slide by. Oloye Adeyemon: Now— Natalie Rothenburg: You oughta know. Oloye Adeyemon: - how-how would you—let me ask you— John Alexander: You’re right [crosstalk 13:45]— Oloye Adeyemon: - another way. How do you think the education that you received in D-D.C. schools compared, say, to the education that you would’ve received if you had been going to school in Maryland, Virginia, or elsewhere? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, I can’t answer that. I c—because back then, I don’t know— Oloye Adeyemon: Enough about that. Natalie Rothenburg: - enough about those schools. Do you, Fred? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. I know a little bit about [crosstalk 14:08]— Natalie Rothenburg: You-you know-know a little bit about. Oloye Adeyemon: Can you speak— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I went to Parkview Elementary School in-in Washington. I went in the sixth grade. I’d been to Baltimore School and then to Virginia. And, uh, that Parkview School, there were two schools in the District of Columbia— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - that had what they called platoon systems. They were experimental schools. Parkview was one, and then there was a Negro school. I don’t know which one that was, but there were two that had this. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Now, when you got to, like, the-the fourth grade or the fifth grade in those respective schools, you went to different classes. Oloye Adeyemon: Special classes within the school. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. In other words, when we had homeroom, we sat with another person on our chair for homeroom. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And when the—and after we had the attendance and the opening ceremony and any-any, uh, you know, the prayer and the flag, and-and then, uh, the bell would ring, and half the class would—and we had about 35 in there, at least— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - you know, that stayed, and then 35 went out. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And they went to a special place. We had a geography teacher, a music teacher— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - we had a-an auditorium in that elementary school. We had a speech teacher. Uh, we had physical ed with the recreation department on the playground. Uh, and we had a shop teacher. Now, this was in elementary school. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And it was-it was great. And then, when I went to junior high, I couldn’t understand why everybody else was havin’ trouble with their lockers and movin’ from class to class because we had been doin’ that— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - ’til I found out that they didn’t have that. Natalie Rothenburg: They didn’t do that. Yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - [crosstalk 15:54] facility. John Alexander: Yeah. We didn’t do that at [unintelligible 15:56]. Natalie Rothenburg: No. I don’t think we-we did that. Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. No other school did it except for Parkview. And then that was what they called a platoon system. You had two groups in one class, and then— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - when the bell rang, they went—then they came back to the other for the reading ’rithmetic, and—or—uh, what was it? Reading—yeah, reading, writing, and arithmetic, or whatever. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And then geography in the [unintelligible 16:16]— Natalie Rothenburg: And history. John Alexander: Excuse me. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. John Alexander: Uh, we had that system— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. John Alexander: - in the elementary schools in Texas. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: I went there before I came here to Washington, D.C. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Now, that understood only Detroit— Oloye Adeyemon: What part of Texas was it? What part of Texas was that? John Alexander: I was, uh—I went—I started elementary school in Mineral Wells, and, uh, well, we lived three years in Austin. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: It was in Austin where we had the department. Oloye Adeyemon: So, in that regard, the schools here in D.C. were similar to the ones— John Alexander: No. No. Oloye Adeyemon: No? John Alexander: No. The school in D.C. at Cooke was not similar. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. But the school he’s describing was? Was— John Alexander: Yes. The school I was describing was similar— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. John Alexander: - to h-his, uh, Parkview. Natalie Rothenburg: I wish I had my, uh, H.D. Cooke book and my Powell echo, but I gave ’em to Sumner School. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: So I—you know, I could show pictures or whatever— Oloye Adeyemon: Sure. Sure. Natalie Rothenburg: - but, uh, Sumner School has ’em. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I understood that Detroit was, uh, was a city-wide school system of platoons. Now, I’m not sure about that, but— Oloye Adeyemon: During that period? Frederick Dunn Jr.: During that period. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: I meant to ask you what you do for a living—what you did for a living. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I was in education. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. So your degree is in— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Education. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And what did you do as an educator? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I taught, and then I was [unintelligible 17:38] personnel work and assistant principal. And in between, I-I was, uh—when we desegregated Montgomery County, I was, uh, special assistant superintendent in charge of the program— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - for desegregation. Oloye Adeyemon: So your teaching career was in Maryland? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Always in Montgomery County. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And did I ask you, Mr. Alexander, what you do—what you did for a living? John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. I did ask you, didn’t I? Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. I don’t think so. What’d you do for a living? You were an accountant or somethin’? Yeah. John Alexander: Yeah. I did accounting, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. John Alexander: Uh, excuse me. I, uh, I attended, uh, an accounting school in D.C. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Uh, and the name of it was Benjamin Franklin— Natalie Rothenburg: Ben—that’s my-my brother— John Alexander: - University. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. John Alexander: It was really an accounting school. It, uh— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - wasn’t a un—true university. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. John Alexander: And it was later taken over by George Washington University. Oloye Adeyemon: Was that a two-year degree? John Alexander: Huh? Oloye Adeyemon: Was that a two-year degree at the time? John Alexander: Uh, no, no. It was, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Four-year? John Alexander: It was—I went four years at night. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. John Alexander: I think it was three years for day school. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And as an accountant, you had your own firm, or you worked— John Alexander: No, no, no. I was—my accounting was, uh, all with the, uh, United States Department of Agriculture. Oloye Adeyemon: That—you did say that, did ask you that. Okay. So I guess I want to go back a little bit and ask your impressions, um, given that you not only, uh, experienced some of it as children but as, uh, adults, uh, the city was still segregated. John Alexander: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: I’d like to ask each of your-your impression of that. Natalie Rothenburg: Impression of that now? Oloye Adeyemon: Of that ye—l—no. What-what it-what it—whether you—as a child, what were aware of, um, segregation, um, what you observed, and if possible, any reflections you have on it. Natalie Rothenburg: Well, start with somebody else because I’m-I’m—I have to say that back then, when I was a teenager or even before then as a child and so forth, I don’t think I thought about it, per se. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: I mean, I don’t think I— Oloye Adeyemon: Were you aware of it? Natalie Rothenburg: Yes. I think I was aware of it, but I just didn’t think of it as a daily thing, you know— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - uh, and, um, and when they were going to, um, integrate the schools, I just, like, so. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: I mean, that kind of thing. It wasn’t—I mean, it wasn’t a deep— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. And I guess right now I’m wondering if you were impacted at all by the general segregation, not so much the schools right now because the schools would probably have been where whites and Blacks were least aware of it and would’ve been more aware of it in the-in the, um, restaurants or— Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, oh— Oloye Adeyemon: - you know. Natalie Rothenburg: - you mean were they—okay. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. ’Cause it-it was more-more-more of a southern city in those years than a northern. Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, yes. Oh, I’ve always called it a southern-most northern city and a northern-most southern city ’cause it’s kind of right— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - you know, in between. But, um— Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have any reflections on that? Natalie Rothenburg: Do you have any? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: And-and perhaps you can share with us how it compared, in terms of segregation, to Texas. John Alexander: Well, Texas was segregated. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Um, just as—about as—about the same as Kansas, I think. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: [Unintelligible 21:18] down there. I wasn’t—I was aware of segregation, but I wasn’t—it was just a—you know, it was-it was an—it was a normal situation— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. John Alexander: - as far as I was concerned. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And, um, uh, as far as city life was concerned, the city was pretty much segregated. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: When I, uh—one-one of my-my favorite avocation is playing golf. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And at one time, there were five golf courses in Washington, D.C., public courses, and, um, Langston was the only course where, uh, Black people played. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And the rest of them was—it was sort of a de facto segregation. There wasn’t any written rule about it. Oloye Adeyemon: But it’s just the way it—way things were in the South. John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. John Alexander: Uh, it’s just that the Negroes didn’t come—I played a lot of great golf courses, and, uh, Negroes didn’t come up too often— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - uh, not until later on. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And— John Alexander: And, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Sorry. John Alexander: Oh, and one other thing. As far as, uh, social activities were concerned, uh, they were pretty segregated too. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: There were, uh, very few restaurants open to, uh, Black people— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - in the District of Columbia. For instance, there was, uh, Glen Echo Park, and that was a— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - segregated facility. Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, yeah. I didn’t think of that, yeah. John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Well, they, uh—the big ballroom there was— Natalie Rothenburg: That’s right. John Alexander: - it was all segregated. Oloye Adeyemon: Where was that located? John Alexander: Huh? Oloye Adeyemon: Where was that located? John Alexander: That’s located, uh, Massachusetts Avenue. It’s north of the-of the [unintelligible 23:04]. Natalie Rothenburg: That’s—well, it was— [Crosstalk 23:05] Natalie Rothenburg: - off of Cal—uh, Canal Road. John Alexander: Huh? Natalie Rothenburg: Glen Echo is off of— Frederick Dunn Jr.: It’s in Maryland, isn’t it? John Alexander: It’s in Maryland. Natalie Rothenburg: Canal. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: It’s off Canal. You go—I go down to Canal and— John Alexander: Well, my route of getting there was either by streetcar— Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Oh, yeah. We did have streetcars to [crosstalk 23:24]— John Alexander: - or by bicycle going out— Natalie Rothenburg: In those days, you get on the streetcar and go out to Glen Echo. John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Were the streetcars segregated? John Alexander: Huh? Oloye Adeyemon: Were the streetcars segregated? John Alexander: No. Natalie Rothenburg: No. I don’t think so. John Alexander: No. I don’t remember that. Oloye Adeyemon: So they didn’t seating where Blacks had to sit in the back and the [crosstalk 23:40]— Natalie Rothenburg: Well, probably they did, but I don’t think that I thought about it. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: I mean, I got on the bus—I mean, the streetcar and just sat down. I don’t think I—I said, oh, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: I lived for a while in the—as an adult in Dallas, Texas. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And at that time, the streetcars were segregated. Natalie Rothenburg: [Crosstalk 24:00] segregated, mm-hmm. John Alexander: And they had a little-little plaque— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. John Alexander: - you hung on the-on the, uh, uh, spacebar along the streets there. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: It all depended who got on first. If the Black people got on first, they’d move the sign up towards the front. And if white people got on first, they moved the sign back. Oloye Adeyemon: Indicating where whites would sit and— John Alexander: Yeah. Sign said—one side said white, and the other side said— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - colored, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Is there any insight that you can share with us about your experiences living in [crosstalk 24:35]— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I lived in Water Street, which is, uh, about a block away from Soldiers Home down in Washington. Uh, between Lamont and-and, uh, Kenyon Street. And, uh, we had a-a Negro settlement on the other side of Columbia Road, which would’ve been about three blocks down. And we had another one up, uh, about 8 or 10 blocks up. These were l-little enclaves, so to speak. And ordinarily, if we went into that territory, we’d get run out. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: If they came into our territory, and we ran them out. And that was about the su—you know, what happened. Natalie Rothenburg: I-I did wanna mention something. Um, I lived at 14th and Girard, which is [unintelligible 25:25]. But anyway, that’s a couple blocks up from Central High School. And in—when I was a child, now Florida Avenue was the demarcation. Blacks lived south of Florida Avenue. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: And the rest of the place up here was white. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: But yet my mother would go for a walk. When—she was a great one for walking. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: From where I lived all the way downtown, no fear. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: No fear of anything, just walked right on down Florida Avenue, U Street, V, you know, on down— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - all the way downtown. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Uh, and, you know, it was just, uh, we didn’t think twice about it. I mean, we just go walkin’ and then, um, sometimes when we got tired of walkin’, we’d have to get on a streetcar and come back or somethin’ like that, but, you know. It was there—there was a demarcation. There’s— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - no question about that. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Florida Avenue. Oloye Adeyemon: Dr. Dunn, um, referred to somethin’ that, like, for us to talk about, and that is, uh, the degree to which there was contact between the races, particularly between the children who were in school. Uh, you know, you’ve kind of addressed it, too, but was there any of that in your personal experience? And was there that in—even though it may have been atypical for your family or for your neighborhood, were there neighborhoods where there was interaction, uh, say, with children playing together but then going to separate schools? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, in the apartment that I lived in, the, um, janitor and his family lived in one of the lower things, and he had children. And I was used to seein’ them and being with them. Oloye Adeyemon: And they were African American? Natalie Rothenburg: Huh? Oh, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: They were Black? Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. It was African American. And the, uh, apartment I lived in had an elevator, and the elevator man was a Black man. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: But, uh, the, uh, um, janitorial man and his family, I mean, I was used to seeing his k-kids all the time. And the way this apartment was arranged, it was a big area in the back that was, um—oh, I don’t know what you’d call it, uh, dirt and— John Alexander: Playground. Natalie Rothenburg: Well, kind of like a playground out at the back of the apartment. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: And been out there many a time with his children— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - you know, talkin’, playin’, sharin’ dolls and— Oloye Adeyemon: How common do you think that would’ve been in Washington durin’ the years that you were brought up? Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t think it was too common— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - but it’s just that they were there— Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Natalie Rothenburg: - you know, and so— Oloye Adeyemon: But it did occur? Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. John Alexander: Uh, I had no such experience as a child. My-my experience came later on when I started working for the government. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: What-what about in your case? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Um— Oloye Adeyemon: Or not just in your case but through your observation, would you say that that was uncommon or common for the— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, see, we lived in a-in-a-in a roadhouse. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And there weren’t any other than down below. But we didn’t play, and the schools didn’t interact— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and I don’t recall any of ’em goin’ to the library. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Um, and, of course, my mother worked. And, uh, before we moved to, uh—from Baltimore to Virginia— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and she worked. My dad worked. So we had a-a colored lady who take care of us— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - in-in our house. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And, uh—who didn’t hesitate to spank us when we needed spankin’ and told us go sit in the corner or whatever ’cause she was the boss. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And we loved her, and, uh, we’d walk her to the-to the street corner every night, you know, and then my brother, little brother, always wanted to go home with her. He didn’t wanna stay at our place. He wanted to go with Bernice all the time. Oloye Adeyemon: Did you ever visit her family? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I didn’t, but my mother did, of course, a number of times. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, in general, would you say that, um, there was that type of contact in Washington, but it wasn’t real, real common, would you say? Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. I think that’s probably an accurate, uh— John Alexander: I would say yes. It was not common. Frederick Dunn Jr.: They had the separate playgrounds. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh, the separate but equal, supposedly. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And, uh, they had the separate playgrounds. They had their separate nightclubs down on U Street. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Right. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And they had their restaurants, and, uh, uh—but now the newspapers didn’t have— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - much of this at all in it, you see. I mean, I think about even the death notices— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - that— Oloye Adeyemon: You were— Natalie Rothenburg: That’s right. That’s correct. Frederick Dunn Jr.: D-d-didn’t show up— Natalie Rothenburg: That’s correct. That’s correct. That is correct. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - until Lord knows when. Oloye Adeyemon: And there was—a-a—was a Black paper during those years? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Pardon? Oloye Adeyemon: It was a Black paper during those years? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Natalie Rothenburg: I think— [Crosstalk 30:19] Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. I think the African community— Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, you’ve, so far, been—I’ve been able to follow your lead because my next question— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Follow my lead? Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Y-you’ve-you’ve kind of touched on things, uh, you know, kind of ahead of me. Um, my next question was, uh, to the degree that you had contact, uh, with Black facilities or facilities that were used by Blacks, how would you compare, say, the schools that Blacks went to or the recreational facilities? Uh, you hit on it when you said, “Supposedly separate but equal.” Would you say that during the years when it was, uh, when it was segregation, and things were separate, uh, the law was Plessy versus Ferguson separate but equal, would you say that, uh, in fact, the facilities were equal in your experience? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I wouldn’t even know. John Alexander: I wouldn’t know. I would-I would think not. Oloye Adeyemon: Why would you think that? Natalie Rothenburg: Weren’t they? John Alexander: Well— Natalie Rothenburg: I-I’m thinkin’ of one playground, though, that was just—it was just like our playground. I’m tryin’— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Playgrounds probably were more so than— Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - schools. Natalie Rothenburg: But that was off of Park Road somewhere. I can’t remember exactly. Uh, it was a Black, uh, like, playground— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - type thing. And it was the same kind of facility that we had, and I was— John Alexander: I’m-I’m basing my—say, I don’t think they were-they were equal. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Probably not. Oloye Adeyemon: What-what— John Alexander: On-on the reason that, uh, Central High School was transferred, uh, and became Cardozo. Frederick Dunn Jr.: In 1950. John Alexander: In-in 1950, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And that was—at the time, there were eight white high schools in the District of Columbia. Oloye Adeyemon: Can you name them for us? John Alexander: Well, let’s see. There was Roosevelt, uh, Central, um, McKinley Tech, uh— Natalie Rothenburg: Coolidge. John Alexander: - Eastern, Coolidge, Western, uh, Anacostia. Natalie Rothenburg: I think that’s it. John Alexander: And, uh— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Roosevelt. Have you mentioned Roosevelt? John Alexander: I thought I did. I begin with. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I don’t know. John Alexander: Roosevelt, Coolidge, Central, Western, Eastern, uh, Anacostia, Wilson. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Wilson. Wilson. Yeah. John Alexander: And there was another one. I can’t remember [unintelligible 32:44]. Anyway, and there was—there were only three Black, uh, legal high schools. Oloye Adeyemon: What were the names of those? John Alexander: Dunbar— Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Banneker. John Alexander: Was Banneker open then? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I think so. And-and, uh, Cardozo. John Alexander: And Cardozo. What about Phelps? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, uh— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Phelps was a vocational— Natalie Rothenburg: Uh, Sumner was— Frederick Dunn Jr.: - school [crosstalk 33:03]. Natalie Rothenburg: - was a, uh, high school. John Alexander: Anyway— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, that was elementary, was it? Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: [Unintelligible 33:08]. Oloye Adeyemon: Didn’t go through high, yeah. John Alexander: At any rate— Natalie Rothenburg: It was there before, uh— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: - that’s when Charles Sumner— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - wanted to have a— Oloye Adeyemon: One of the early— [Crosstalk 33:16] John Alexander: The Board of Education with presented with a real big dilemma. The old Cardozo High School was, uh—put it in a way. It wasn’t for sale. It was about to collapse— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - physically. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And so—um, the choice is either build a new facility or give them an existing facility. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Now, all the eight white high schools were underpopulated— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - so they decided to give them, uh, Central. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Well, wait a minute. There’s one little thing on that, John, though. Um, because Central was the oldest high school in Washington, it was as—in those days, these kinds of things in the District of Columbia were done by the, uh, three commissioners or whatever have you, and they had to present it, and Congress had to make the decision. Oloye Adeyemon: Because there was not a state school system— Natalie Rothenburg: Right. So— Oloye Adeyemon: Here, it was actually— Natalie Rothenburg: So-so-so-so— Oloye Adeyemon: - Congress [crosstalk 34:08]— Natalie Rothenburg: with-with that—with that, my understanding is, and you can correct me ’cause you probably researched this. My understanding is, and I think I’ve seen this, is that when Congress said we will ma—built at 13th and Clifton and all that kind of thing and with a stadium and all this kind of thing. It says in there for white students. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: And this was 1883 or ’84. Oloye Adeyemon: So you’re saying that Central was designated to be— Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. So when-when, uh, integration was gonna take place, you can’t just—my understanding is you can’t just— John Alexander: What? Well, this is before integration? Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. This is— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. 1950 [crosstalk 34:43]— Oloye Adeyemon: My understanding is that— Natalie Rothenburg: I know—what—I understand it. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: What I’m saying is that you can’t just take an act of Congress and ignore it. Oloye Adeyemon: Which would’ve been designating Central as a white high school. Natalie Rothenburg: Uh, that’s what it said— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: - in the-in the thing. Oloye Adeyemon: Now-now, there’s two issues, and-and they’re both important. I wanna follow up on both of ’em. You’re saying that the school had been designated as a white— Natalie Rothenburg: As a white school. Oloye Adeyemon: - so that even though it would’ve been an expenditure, that, you know, it would’ve been raising money. It—based on that, would’ve required the city to build a Black school because that school had been designated. Natalie Rothenburg: All right. But the other-the other way of doing it is to shut the school down— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - and then reopen it 15 minutes later under another name. Because it’s designated as Central, and you can’t— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you’re not saying that the— John Alexander: Well, that’s what they did, yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. See, they shut it down— Oloye Adeyemon: So what you’re saying— Natalie Rothenburg: - so there’s like Central is no more. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: So that’s it. Oloye Adeyemon: So you’re— Natalie Rothenburg: Now, you can open that same building— Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: - [unintelligible 35:45] back up— Oloye Adeyemon: That was your thing. Natalie Rothenburg: - and call it what you want. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: But you can’t call it Central. Oloye Adeyemon: But you can’t call it Central because Central was designated to be— Natalie Rothenburg: A white— Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Natalie Rothenburg: That’s right. And it was designated— Oloye Adeyemon: So explains why— Natalie Rothenburg: - way back in— Oloye Adeyemon: - it had a different name. Natalie Rothenburg: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: That’s correct. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, going back, I believe Mr. Alexander’s correct that this was not something that was done because of a court-imposed plan for desegregation. This is something that was done— John Alexander: No. This is— Oloye Adeyemon: - before desegregation because of overcrowding. John Alexander: It was for— Oloye Adeyemon: Or not overcrowding. John Alexander: It was— Oloye Adeyemon: - it was ’cause the increase— John Alexander: - four years before the Brown— Oloye Adeyemon: - in Black—right. John Alexander: - Brown versus Board of Education was 1950. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Right. Natalie Rothenburg: But nonetheless, based— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: - on what I’m— John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Yes. John Alexander: That’s what they did is shut it down— Oloye Adeyemon: And opened it up. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. You-you can-you-you can—I mean, it doesn’t have to be shut down for a year. It just can be shut down, no more Central. That’s it. Now, the building is now still a high school, but it’s under a name of Cardozo. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, all of you had graduated by that time. John Alexander: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: What did— Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. No. By the time that happened—oh, yes, we did. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Yeah, ’50s. Oloye Adeyemon: So, as alumni— John Alexander: I was 47. You were 48— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Forty-two. John Alexander: Forty-two. Oloye Adeyemon: As alumni—we’re talkin’ about 1950 now, right? John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. As alumni, uh, what were your feelings about that happening to your high school? And what was the feelings of your parents when this happened and the students that were currently going to the school? John Alexander: Well, I only had my mother living, and she didn’t, uh—I don’t think it was any concern to her at all. Oloye Adeyemon: What did a lot of people that felt strongly about Central— Natalie Rothenburg: There may have been— John Alexander: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: I didn’t, uh— John Alexander: I was [crosstalk 37:31]— Natalie Rothenburg: - I was really—you know, it was like— Oloye Adeyemon: What do you think— Natalie Rothenburg: I wasn’t— Oloye Adeyemon: You said you were a little unhappy. What do you think should’ve been done instead of that? What was—what do you think was an alternative? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I think [unintelligible 37:41]. I suppose I thought they should’ve built a new school for— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - for Cor—for the Cardozo. Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause there were st—were there students going to Central at the time— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - who had to leave Central— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 37:53] happen? Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Natalie Rothenburg: As a matter of fact, there are a few students who came back in ’51 to take one or two classes that they missed or they failed or whatever have— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - you. And so, uh, you know. And then after that, uh, anybody who was in the area— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - would go to that school. Oloye Adeyemon: So let me make sure I’m understanding. There would’ve been white students going to Central High who would have had—as a high school student—who would’ve had to go into a brand new high school student with students that they may not have known to join them as students at that high school at this time—during-during— Frederick Dunn Jr.: It wasn’t a brand new school. It just wasn’t— Oloye Adeyemon: Not a brand new school, but I’m sayin’ a new school for them. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: They would’ve had to leave the school that they had been going— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - to and join the student population at another school. Natalie Rothenburg: Okay. Yeah. John Alexander: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: You know, and even though you weren’t in school at the time and may not have known any of those students, uh, even if they had not minded, we can safely say it was somewhat of a imposition or difficulty for them. Natalie Rothenburg: Well, I-I-I can assume, but I can’t speak— Oloye Adeyemon: You can’t speak— Natalie Rothenburg: - for somebody else. Oloye Adeyemon: - ’cause none of you have any direct knowledge— Natalie Rothenburg: No. I don’t. Oloye Adeyemon: - of that. Natalie Rothenburg: A-and, uh, uh, the few people that I know about because I have—a-a-a good deal of the people belong to the alumni association, um, you know, they-they’ve never said. They just said they went back to take math because they failed it or somethin’. You know, it wasn’t a— Oloye Adeyemon: In-in Delaware, this actually happened to Blacks during the, um, years when they were trying to come up with a integration plan. And many of the Blacks were, you know, very upset or disappointed that they had to leave the high school they had been going to in order to go to another school. I’d like to break here and start on the second side of the tape, uh, with this discussion. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. [Pause 39:47 - 40:04] [End of Audio]

Description

All three are alumni of Central High School in Washington D.C. The interview primarily cover introductions and family histories of the interview subjects, and a brief introduction into the level of awareness white students may have had regarding the conditions of their African-American counterparts during segregation.

Date Created

08/15/2001

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