Audio
Rudy Palihnich
Transcript
Chin: Okay.
All right. You were on the Spurgin. When did you join the service?
Rudy: Actually, November 3, 1941.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: From New Jersey, and [00:00:30] then went into basic training, and from basic training, I was transferred to a mine planter, Baird, in Boston Harbor.
There, I worked as ... I was a trainee, and probably because my knowledge of engineering and so on, before long, I was made a permanent member of the crew. I was in the training [00:01:00] crew for the new planters that were being built at the time.
I advanced from training into permanent member of the crew, then the instructor for boiler room personnel and then instructor for engine room personnel. And then I submitted an application for appointment as engineering boss on the planters, and that was denied on the grounds that I was [00:01:30] performing valuable service to the war effort, and that my services are very valuable as an instructor, but to submit this application again at the expiration of the training program, so that's what I did.
Chin: Okay.
Rudy: We were training the last crew for the Spurgin. Spurgin was the 14th of the 16 new [00:02:00] mine planters being built. I was sent ... By that time I was a technical sergeant, and I was sent to Point Pleasant, West Virginia, where the mine planters were built. Well, when I got there, I was assigned to the mine planter, Maybach, and while in Point Pleasant, standing by for completion of the Maybach, [00:02:30] I got my appointment as engineering boss warrant officer, and engineer for the mine planter, and transferred to the Spurgin.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: And then when the Spurgin was completed, I went with it to Panama, and after about six months in Panama, on both sides of the canal, we came up to San Francisco to be converted into a cable layer. [00:03:00] Well, we got here, and it seems that nobody knew anything about us, in San Francisco, and we just laid around for about two, couple of months. And then they decided ... Since no one knew anything about us being made into a cable layer, that we continue our ... In the mine fields around San Francisco.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: And we've been there from 19 ... Well about early '43 [00:03:30] until the end of the war.
Chin: I see. Now, when the ship came up to San Francisco, were there any other mine planters already attached to the harbor defenses?
Rudy: Yes, there was the Mills, which was sister ship of the Spurgin, and the Niles, the Niles was a different type of a ship, diesel engine powered, and she was ... There was always [00:04:00] problems with her, she was very seldom ready to go out, so that's why they decided to make us a mine planter for the San Francisco area, because the Niles was always broken down. But that Niles is ... Looking at it, is a beautiful looking ship, looked more like a yacht than a mine planter.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: So anyway, we became a permanent mine planter for this area here.
Chin: [00:04:30] So was there enough work for two mine planters?
Rudy: Oh yeah, more than enough. I believe we had 19 mine groups to maintain, and these groups consisted of, I believe, 13 mines in each group. These mines would be planted [00:05:00] outside the gate, and every so often we would pick them up and bring them ashore to Fort Scott, or Fort Baker, or even over on Treasure Island, they would re-work them, they would scale them and paint them, and look over the firing mechanism and all of that, and then we would take them back out again.
Chin: Yes. [00:05:30] When you would bring them up for maintenance, how many at a time would they bring in?
Rudy: Oh, it depends. If it's for regular maintenance we could put in a whole group, 19 mines.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: If it was for regular maintenance. If it was not, if it was one of the mines was malfunctioning or so, well, then we would just select that one that was malfunctioned and bring it up.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: As [00:06:00] I said, we would bring them in to either one of these. There was a mine battery at Fort Scott, you know where Fort Scott is?
Chin: Oh yes.
Rudy: And Fort Baker.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: And we usually docked across the ... Over in Sausalito, there was a mine dock specially built for the mine planters. The mines were taken up in Fort Baker, or Fort Scott, as I said.
Chin: Okay, so you would take [00:06:30] the mines from wherever they were picked up, and you bring them to Fort Scott or Fort Baker, and leave them there to be repaired, and then you'd permanently dock in Sausalito.
Rudy: Yeah, we did not carry a mine planting crew. The mine planting crew was based ashore. We only operated the ship for them.
Chin: That's right. Yes. I think I should tell you that you're the first person that I've [00:07:00] talked to that has the experience and the knowledge of the mine fields and the mine planters, so far in this project, so this is pretty exciting for me. And all the things that you're saying is a lot of the things that I've read in theory, but I'm seeing that these things actually happened right at the harbor defenses in San Francisco.
Rudy: That's how I remembered. I was five years in the Army, of that five years was only about three or [00:07:30] four months that I wasn't on a mine planter, most of the rest was on a mine planter.
Chin: Very good.
Rudy: In Boston Harbor, or shipyards, or here in San Francisco.
Chin: Now, when the mines were planted, do you remember generally the procedure that used in planting these, the mines?
Rudy: Well, these mines were controlled mines, they were not dropped at random. They were [00:08:00] dropped in a plotted position. When they were dropped in that position, then a cable from that mine would run out to what we called a distribution box. It would be connected to the distribution box, and the whole 19 mines in this field would be connected by cables connecting to the distribution box. And then one cable from the distribution box [00:08:30] to shore.
Now, we had another boat that worked with us, and that was what we called the L boat, L, the letter L, now why that designation, I don't know, but anyway, that was the designation of the boat. This L boat would go out there before we would get there and find the distribution box, pick it up on their deck. [00:09:00] And then we would plant the mine, and then run over the cable to this L boat, and the L boat would then connect the mine cable to the distribution box. And then when the whole minefield, or mine group was planted, then the L boat would drop the distribution box down to the bottom.
Chin: I see. Now then, wasn't there some [00:09:30] cable that they'd have to bring back to shore somewhere? That would be picked up?
Rudy: Cable?
Chin: Yeah, the connection that would go to shore and then eventually to the mining casemate.
Rudy: Yes. But I mean, I don't think we did anything like that. I don't remember. I remember doing a cable job, midway between here and Honolulu, there was a cable break and we went out there, grappled for it, and found it, and brought [00:10:00] it on deck and repaired the problem.
And this may be of interest, that we had for protection, we had a blimp circling overhead, and two Navy destroyers circling around us to keep ... I don't think it was so much for safety, it was for giving away the location of the cable. Keep all the ships away from there.
Chin: I see. So, the ship did [00:10:30] function sometimes as a cable ship then?
Rudy: Yes, oh yeah. We had the ... I forgot now what it was, about a couple of miles of cable onboard.
Chin: Was that the only time that it went out into the open ocean to do any such work?
Rudy: Well, open ocean is ... Minefields was in the open ocean.
Chin: Well, I guess I mean far away from the ...
Rudy: That's the only one that I remember. It was about midway between here and Honolulu.
Chin: I see. [00:11:00] Speaking of the open ocean, do you remember generally how far into shore, and sort of geographically where the minefields were in relation to the Golden Gate and the shoreline?
Rudy: I would say it was about four miles or so, running from approximately ... Are you familiar with San Francisco?
Chin: Oh yes, that's where I'm from.
Rudy: Oh, you're from here?
Chin: Oh yes.
Rudy: I thought he gave the ... That you're from Los Angeles.
Chin: That's correct. Well, I have to live down [00:11:30] in Los Angeles for now, but I'm from San Francisco.
Rudy: I see. Well, roughly the minefields ran from approximately where the zoo is, you know where the zoo is?
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: Well about a mile off, out into the sea, from the zoo.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: And then in circle. From the zoo, further out to sea, over Golden ... [00:12:00] Circling the entrance to the Golden Gate, and out over the potato patch, you know where that is?
Chin: Oh yes.
Rudy: Potato patch, and over to a beach over in Marin County, I can't think of the name of the beach, but it's something like that, it was sort of an arc around ... It wasn't a straight line say, from Golden, from [inaudible 00:12:24] to Marin County, it was sort of an arch going out to sea. So I would say it was [00:12:30] Point Lobos in San Francisco, I would say was about 10 miles out.
Chin: I see. The depths out there are not as deep as some people would imagine, are they? It's fairly shallow.
Rudy: Oh no, quite deep.
Chin: It is?
Rudy: Near shore it's not very deep. But, out in the ocean it's several hundred feet.
Chin: Oh is it?
Rudy: [00:13:00] These mines were not floating mines, they weren't buoyant, they were on the bottom, ground mines.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: Originally, when I was first in the harbor defenses of Boston, we were planting buoyant mines. They floated about 14 feet below the surface, and they were anchored to the bottom. But in the early part of 1943, they came out with these ground mines that would go right down to the bottom. [00:13:30] They didn't need an anchor or anything because their own weight ... I think they weighed something like 3 tons, so their own weight was the anchor.
Chin: So these were right on the bottom of the ocean floor there?
Rudy: Yes, uh-huh.
Chin: But it was supposed to have enough blasting power to be able to ...
Rudy: Yeah, well they were something like 3 tons of blasting power.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: And we had, on several occasions we ran [00:14:00] across this field as for firing, sort of experimental, they would fire the mines. We would tow a target. And when the target would get over the minefield they would explode it, and we would be a mile or so away from the target, it was like [inaudible 00:14:23].
Chin: I see. So anything closer would rupture the hull. I see.
Rudy: [00:14:30] Quite potent.
Chin: Were the mines from some sort of optical siting from the shore somewhere?
Rudy: No, they had a cable to shore, to a casemate, and they had ... They could be fired from shore at will. Now, in the inclement weather, such as [00:15:00] cloudy, or foggy, weather at night, they would put a charge or something like 500 volts on the cable and it took 512 volts to explode the mine. So, with 500 volts charge on the mine, the magnetic effect of the ship going over it would generate the additional 12 volts to explode [00:15:30] it. But if there was no charge on it, any ship could go over it without any problem.
Chin: Okay. Now, when they picked up 19 of these mines to be repaired, would they be afraid that they'd be leaving a gap in the ...
Rudy: Well no, as mines were picked up, the others would be put down.
Chin: I see, oh I see, okay. So they always had a set to just put right in as the others were taken out.
Rudy: Oh sure.
Chin: How many [00:16:00] hours, or how much time did it take to do say, your average group of 13 mines?
Rudy: How long would it take to put 19 mines?
Chin: Yeah.
Rudy: All day.
Chin: Ah, all day. Yes.
Rudy: I don't remember exactly, but I know it took a long time. Actually, my position was not anything with the mines, I was engineering boss there, so I was in charge of the engine room.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: That's [00:16:30] what I remember.
Chin: Were there any times that the mine planter would be used for towing targets for sea coast artillery? I mean, targets for guns?
Rudy: Yes, yes, we did that too. This may be of interest to you; in 1945, I don't remember the ... Early '45 or late '44, there was a troop ship that ran aground on the Farallon Islands. I don't know if you've ever [00:17:00] heard of this.
Chin: I've heard of it, but maybe you have more details.
Rudy: It was a [inaudible 00:17:04] converted into a troop ship. Henry Berg, something like that.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: And we were tied to the dock at Sausalito. And about 4 o'clock in the morning we got the word that the ship is aground up there, to go out there and see what we can do for it. [00:17:30] Well, I happened to be the officer of the day, that particular night, so I immediately got the engine ready, we called the captain and the chief engineer lived in Mill Valley, or Kentfield, or something in that area. We informed him of the request, so I got the engine ready, and when they came aboard, we took off, only with part of [00:18:00] the crew onboard.
And we went out there, and this again, I will tell you something that if you know anything about it, you will have a different opinion of this. We went out there, and our skipper who was Captain Carlson, was one of the best ship handlers that I have ever seen, and I've been at sea for a good many years. He worked his way right up close to the [00:18:30] transport and took on the survivors. There were other ships, Navy ships which stood out further, about a mile or so out to sea from us. But anyway, we got loaded with the survivors, and we brought them on to Treasure Island. Then we went out and picked up another load of them. And that afternoon, in the paper, was [00:19:00] that the Coast Guard saved the troops and brought two loads of them to Treasure Island.
Chin: Well, how did the ... Well, I guess the reporters usually mix up a story pretty good.
Rudy: Well, yeah, you know, who knows about mine planters. Coast Guard. I don't know. But anyway, that was important.
Chin: I will get it right in the book, because yes, somebody else mentioned that story, but not from your angle, so this will work [00:19:30] fine, it'll round it out.
So you went out there during the nighttime, and then worked until the next day bringing people.
Rudy: We were ... Well let's see, we got the word at about 4 o'clock in the morning. And then it took about an hour or so before we got ready, and before the skipper and [inaudible 00:19:51] came on board, so we must have left Sausalito about 5 o'clock. And Farallons are what, about 20 [00:20:00] ...
Chin: 25 miles.
Rudy: 29 miles from here, from Sausalito, so it might taken us two hours to get there, so let's say 7 o'clock in the morning we got there. And then we picked up a load and it took a while. It took a while though, because they were going off into life boats and motor boats and everything they had. In fact, on the last trip, we even took [00:20:30] a couple of life boats with us, there was nobody else left on board, so we took a couple of the lifeboats.
Chin: I see. So you made two trips out there.
Rudy: Two trips, yes. It was our first trip, took half a day until we got them all onboard. And believe me, they were a mess, because there was oil floating on the surface, and they had to get into a lifeboat through the water, swim to the lifeboat, [00:21:00] and they came on board, the mine planter, it was a mess after that.
Chin: Was the ship hung up on some rocks?
Rudy: Yeah, it was hung on a rock, it couldn't get off. And then I believe, about three days later, it broke in two. And it was on the western side of the islands.
Chin: Was it partially [00:21:30] submerged when you got there, or was it taking-
Rudy: No, no, it was riding high.
Chin: I see, but they had a hole in the hull somewhere?
Rudy: Yeah, they got ... They ran on the rock and then they couldn't get off the rock. They didn't go down in the water then, it was high in the water, but they know they couldn't get off because the rock came right through the bottom. And three days later the heavy seas just broke it in two, in several pieces, and she sunk.
Chin: I was told [00:22:00] that some group responsible for saving the whatever, got a commendation for it. Now, maybe it was the Coast Guard, but ...
Rudy: No, we didn't get no commendation.
Chin: Yeah, you don't remember any Army units getting anything like that?
Rudy: No, no, I don't. That's the first I ever heard of.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: But I know there was many other Naval vessels out there, but I said earlier, they were a mile out, they didn't get near the ship.
Chin: Was your mine planter the only [00:22:30] one that got that close?
Rudy: Yes.
Chin: Yeah, I think that name of the skipper is W.O. Carlson?
Rudy: Yes.
Chin: Yes. I have a photo of him, so this is a good chance for me to put that one in the book under that particular topic.
Rudy: He was an excellent ship handler. He was a German, not German but Norwegian, born in Norway. I guess he was running along the rugged Norway coast from childhood. [00:23:00] An excellent ship handler. I have nothing but highest regards for him.
Chin: I see. Let's see now, as far as the type of officers on board, I understand that the way these mine planters operated was that there was sort of Naval type of system of ranking for the people who ran the ship and then there was sort of a more Army type of ranking for the detail that actually did the planting of the mines, wasn't [00:23:30] there?
Rudy: Now, let's talk about ship's crew now. Ship's crew was coast artillery men, they were in uniform in the coast artillery, that's the crew. The officers were not in the coast artillery, they were in the mine planter service, that's a special service that didn't belong to coast artillery or anyone else, it was the mine planter service. So the officers [00:24:00] wore a regular Army uniform, and they were all warrant officers, either chief warrant or junior warrant. And on the sleeve they had the stripes comparable to the Merchant Marines. Third engineer, and third officer had one stripe, and the second engineer and second officer had two stripes, and first, [00:24:30] three, and the captain and chief engineer four stripes. And then the deck officer, above the stripes, had the gold anchor, and the engineering officers had a gold propeller over the stripes.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: Which, that's the only officers that had then any stripes on the sleeves, other than, I believe, the Army officers that graduated from West Point, I believe they [00:25:00] had one stripe to indicate that they were West Pointers.
Chin: I see. So you were a member of the mine planter service then.
Rudy: I was a member of the mine planter service. And the crew was the coast artillery. And the commanding officer was the coast artillery. Now, unless you are familiar with the difference between commanding officer and the captain.
Chin: [00:25:30] Now, that's the tricky problem that I was gonna ask you if you didn't already start to explain. So you can ...
Rudy: Well, the ship was a ship, but in addition to ship being a ship, it was also a coast artillery battery, part of the coast artillery. So the commanding officer was the coast artillery. The captain was the captain of the ship. Now, the commanding [00:26:00] officer would receive the orders from the coast artillery, where to go, where to be, when to be, and so on. But the captain decides how to get there, and which route to take, and what to avoid, what not to avoid. The commanding officer had no authority to tell the captain take this route to get there, that's faster than another route. That was up to the captain of the ship. [00:26:30] But the commanding officer was in charge of the ship as an Army battery, not as a ship.
Chin: Okay. So then he would be in charge of the coast artillery crew aboard.
Rudy: The unit of the coast artillery.
Chin: Yes, yes.
Rudy: The captain was in charge of the ship as a ship.
Chin: Yes, so what type of commands would [00:27:00] the officer, not the captain, be giving when they were out there planting the mines? What was his duty?
Rudy: No, he had nothing to say.
Chin: Oh.
Rudy: No, he would just give the orders to the captain, where the command from shore asked them to go to this group of mines and do this, or go to this one and do that. And then our captain would get there, he would get to a position on his own, according to his knowledge and so on. It was entirely up to the captain of the [00:27:30] ship.
Chin: So the captain of the ship would also be in command of the crew that put the mines in the water and hauled them out of the water then.
Rudy: How to put them down, and how to bring them up, it was in the jurisdiction of the captain. But which mine to go to, and so on, that was the decision of the commanding officer.
Chin: I see. So basically, the commanding officer really, there wasn't much for him to do as far as the operation.
Rudy: No. All he did was play cribbage [00:28:00] with anybody that was off duty.
Chin: I see. Hmm.
Rudy: That's how I remember it.
Chin: Well, I would imagine then, they probably put a very junior type officer, maybe a second lieutenant on something like that.
Rudy: No, he was usually a captain.
Chin: Really? Oh, so then he would be the captain in charge of the battery.
Rudy: That's right, captain in charge of the battery.
Chin: Wow.
Rudy: Chief warrant officer was the captain of the ship.
Chin: Well, you've explained it thoroughly, I'll just have to hear my tape a couple of times and make sure I've absorbed that.
Rudy: It's [00:28:30] kind of confusing.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: If you're not familiar with it.
Chin: Yes. Were there any times when they would take, I don't know, maybe a commanding general or some commanding officers out to watch what was going on, anything like that?
Rudy: Yeah, we had those people to come out and see the mines, how we worked and so on. We had dignitaries on board, military of course, I don't remember [00:29:00] any civilian dignitaries. But military, commanding general, Colonel Roundtree, I remember his name, he was commanding general of the Fort Scott, we took him out many times.
Chin: You weren't there when they had a big tour for the Minister of War, Brazil, was there [00:29:30] anything? Do you remember anything like that?
Rudy: No.
Chin: Okay, maybe you got there after that all happened.
Rudy: No, I don't know that.
Chin: I understand the food was very good aboard ship.
Rudy: Well yes, food was good, and the reason food was good, that we were ... Army didn't supply us with the food, we were given money for rations. And being at sea, we were given one [00:30:00] and a half rations. That's what all military personnel at sea got one and a half rations. And then we could buy our own, whenever we saw fit. And if we had a good mess sergeant, well then, he would go, he knew his way around, and he would go to Fort Scott or Treasure Island, or anywhere, any military installation, and buy the cheapest food, not cheapest, but I most economical, and as a result, [00:30:30] it always worked in our favor, so the food was excellent.
Chin: Yes. So lived aboard the ship.
Rudy: Oh yes.
Chin: Yeah. There were no permanent barracks on shore that were assigned to the crews of the mine planters.
Rudy: No, no, only the mine crew, as I said, the mine main crew, they were shore people. They would only come on board when we had mines to lay.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: Otherwise, the whole ship's crew [00:31:00] lived on the ship.
Chin: Let's see, so sometimes you'd do something like towing targets, and then a cable laying job that one time. Were there any other things that weren't of the mine planting variety that might have been done?
Rudy: No, that's the only thing that I remember is the cable laying. No, that's about only the thing that I can remember.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: I mean, that's refers to a long time ago.
Chin: Oh I know, [00:31:30] that's what everybody says, who I've been talking to, but everybody seems to remember quite a bit after they talk a while, and you certainly have.
Do you remember anything passing over ... I don't think you probably would know about it, but maybe you might've seen it, the submarine net that they had stretched across?
Rudy: Yeah, sure.
Chin: I'm going to turn my tape over so I can start the other side, and then you could tell me what you [00:32:00] remember about-
Rudy: [inaudible 00:32:02] because that wasn't in our jurisdiction.
Chin: Oh, I know that, but that's information than anybody else has been able to give me, so just hang on there.
Rudy: All right.
Chin: [00:32:30] Okay.
Yes, the submarine net. Hello?
Rudy: Yes.
Chin: Yes, okay. So whatever you remember about the submarine net.
Rudy: I know submarine nets were manned by the Navy.
Chin: Okay.
Rudy: [00:33:00] Are you all right?
Chin: Yes. I'm fine.
Rudy: They were manned by the Navy crew. Navy had a net depot on well, it would be at the north side of Tiburon Peninsula. They had several net tenders that would man the net. And the net stretched from about a [00:33:30] little past Fort Scott, not quite inside of Fort Scott, I don't remember the exact point, but inside of Fort Scott, so that's why we never had to go through the net. And over to Angel Island, and then on Tiburon.
Chin: Oh, I see.
Rudy: That's where the net went. And there was a gate in the net that would be open during the day, and closed at night. And [00:34:00] only ... And closed in inclement weather and so on, or any kind of alarm or so, it would be closed. These two net tenders were right there on each end of the gate, so in case of an alarm or something, they would just close the gate and shut off the entrance to the harbor. But they were inside the harbor, not outside.
Chin: Yes. [00:34:30] So any ship that wanted to go that far, they'd have to go through the gate, that was the only place they could go through.
Rudy: That's right.
Chin: I see, so it must've been fairly wide then.
Rudy: It was open. We went into harbor many times, we never had to get it cleared, net clearance, during the day, when the gate was open. But once they closed it, then no.
Now I can give you something in connection with that, that happened to us in Boston [00:35:00] Harbor. We were out planting mines. You want to hear this?
Chin: Yes I do.
Rudy: This is pertaining to ...
Chin: Oh, it may help me in envisioning what might have gone on in San Francisco.
Rudy: We were out planting mines. We got the word, as well as all the ships in the area, to get in, they detected some submarines out there. And the battleship, [00:35:30] I believe was ... I can't think of the name now, but a battleship came in with a big hole in it, a hole, you could drive a bus through it, that was in the battle of [inaudible 00:35:44]. It was hit there, and had a big hole in it. Well this battleship came in, and as it came in, they closed the net. Well they came in faster than we could, they closed the net, and we were [00:36:00] outside. And that was it, so we stayed out there all the time.
Chin: Well couldn't they just reopen it again?
Rudy: No, no, once they closed it, it wouldn't re-open for anyone.
Chin: Oh, so you were just too late.
Rudy: We were just too late.
And just to give you another highlight of this. At the time, we had no armament on board the ship. In Boston [00:36:30] Harbor we had two 30 caliber machine guns, that was the only armor we had when the war started on December 7th. Then, several months later, we were given two 50 caliber machine guns, and we, the crew, whittled out of a log, something that looked like a five inch gun, and we would put it on a [inaudible 00:36:54], painted black, and put it on a [inaudible 00:36:57] to make it look like a five incher. And then [00:37:00] soon as we get into the harbor, we take it down so nobody sees that it's a fake gun.
Anyway, when we went on the new ship, the Spurgin, we took it out of Point Pleasant, West Virginia, that's where it was built. We went down to New Orleans, where they put the yardarms on it, and the gun. They gave us a French 75 mm gun, a manned gun. [00:37:30] Well, that was as useless as useless could be, because you couldn't follow as the ship rolled and pitched. So at sea, you couldn't elevate [inaudible 00:37:40] as fast as the ship was moving.
Chin: Oh, could you explain that again? They had the wheels on it, did you say?
Rudy: Well, the gun is made so you can elevate it, or [inaudible 00:37:53] it, or to spot the target. Well, at sea, that kind of gun [00:38:00] needs special equipment to be able to move it much, much faster than land guns.
Chin: Okay.
Rudy: So it you reel the ship to elevate it to a target, and the ship pitches a little bit, that changes the target there, you couldn't move the gun fast enough to compensate for the movement of the ship at sea.
Chin: Yes, that's right, okay.
Rudy: So it was more or less, nothing more than a [00:38:30] fake gun, as far as we were concerned.
Chin: I see. So they never mounted any other armament on them?
Rudy: Later on, they mounted regular ship guns.
Chin: Oh, so they had something more than machine guns on board then?
Rudy: Yeah, when we came out, we were given two machine guns, and this French 75 mm gun, but that was useless to us. But we put up with it for over a year or [00:39:00] so, before they gave us the regular gun.
Chin: Oh what type of a gun, five inch?
Rudy: I really don't know. I'm not a gunnery ...
Chin: Oh, no, no, that's all right. So, in other words, you sailed into San Francisco Bay with the French 75 on. I see.
Rudy: Yeah, that's all we had. And the two 50 caliber.
Chin: Yes. Well I guess the 50 calibers were probably more useful than that 75 could ever be.
Rudy: Unless the sea was perfectly [00:39:30] calm.
Chin: Well, maybe they wanted ... That was the salute gun or something.
Rudy: Well, I know it didn't make us feel very great. Chances are we couldn't have fought off a sub anyway, but at least it would feel better if you had a fighting chance. We didn't consider that was a fighting chance either.
Chin: No, I guess not.
Now, as far as general navigation in and out of the Golden Gate, during those days [00:40:00] in the war, all the ships that came and went, did they have to be registered or accounted for before they came and exited? Or do you remember how that worked?
Rudy: I really don't know. That's at a higher level than I was. I know from Sausalito, we went in and out with no problems, because it was outside the net. And we had an Army mission, so we more or less moved freely.
Chin: I wonder if that dock in [00:40:30] Sausalito is still there.
Rudy: No, no, it's not there. And in fact, if you go over that way on the way down to Sausalito, take the Alexander Avenue approach to the north end of Sausalito, you'll see a sewage plant, well, that's where that sewage plant is ... Dock was just outside the sewage plant. In fact you'll see wooden steps, I think they're still there. We put those wooden steps to get [00:41:00] from the ship up to the bus. We built that, the crew of the Spurgin.
Chin: So what did people do on shore leave? You go into Sausalito, or into San Francisco?
Rudy: Well I mean, some would go to San Francisco, some to Sausalito. See before, we had not even a path from the dock. There wasn't even a path to get up the hill to get a bus. So we, the crew, built those steps. I forgot now how many steps, [00:41:30] but there's a lot of them.
And then when that ship, the Berg, sunk, we got a motorboat and two lifeboats from it. And then we used that motorboat to run from the ship to Sausalito for leave and so on. And when we would go out, had an anchor there in that cove.
Chin: So all three of the planters were berthed there?
Rudy: [00:42:00] No, only two, the Mills and the Spurgin. But this Niles, they were always someplace else. They were in shipyards. I don't think they did any mines.
Chin: Well, that crew must have not been doing too much then?
Rudy: No, except, but the work they did in the engine room, and they cleaned the ship and so. I don't think I ever seen it out in [00:42:30] the minefields.
Chin: But your two ships didn't have to go out every day, or did you?
Rudy: Well, in nice weather there was always ... In fact, in foggy weather we wouldn't go out. But, otherwise yeah, there was always something to do.
Chin: Always something. Was it usually something to do with the mines. I mean they kept on-
Rudy: Oh always mines, yes. Either picking one up or connection to the distribution box would go wrong, and [00:43:00] the air boat would go ahead of us, pick it up, and then the mine crew would look it over. There was always something.
Chin: Okay. So I guess those mines, they were constantly being inspected.
Rudy: Oh yeah, continuously.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: In fact, I think there was a rule that it had to be picked up every six months.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: Now, the six months, it takes to pick up 19 groups of mines, it [00:43:30] took quite a while, and then pick them up and then take them back out again, and then search for problems with any other given mine, and it's a problem. Sometimes it would take us a day to find the mine, especially at the potato patch. The potato patch is shallow water there, and in this shallow water it's always rough, and it was difficult. That was the most difficult [00:44:00] spot we had, is the potato patch.
Chin: Okay. So sometimes the mines wouldn't be exactly where they were recorded as being at.
Rudy: Well, sometimes they wouldn't be there, but they would be there, but see, the weather, when the ship is rolling heavily, it's more delicate to find the cable, and to grapple for it, because the ship is moving so much. On a calm day, oh sure, they can go right there, to the spot, and grapple for it and find it. [00:44:30] But in heavy weather, they can be grappling near it, and the wave will move the ship from a location and then they're off.
Chin: I see, okay. Well when these mines were brought up after being down there for about six months, or so, were they encrusted with all sorts of stuff, or seaweed?
Rudy: Oh yeah, they have barnacles, even small octopuses on it.
Chin: Oh really?
Rudy: Yeah.
Chin: Was that a rare thing, or a lot of times.
Rudy: No, no, the small [00:45:00] ones, not the big ones, the small ones.
Chin: So they'd be just hanging on?
Rudy: Yeah. It was. With their suckers they could just attach themselves to the mines. They were small ones, so they didn't venture far away from where they were born.
Chin: Oh, I've got to mention that in the book, yes.
Somebody told me that on ... I guess maybe on Fort Scott, or Fort Baker, on the dock there, somebody had rigged up a [00:45:30] big box where people would put crabs into, that they'd pick up from the mine planters, or something.
Rudy: Oh, well, we did that. Sometimes there'd be a crab. We had even, around Sausalito, we would put a crab net down there and catch crabs, oh yeah.
Chin: So that was fairly common then.
Rudy: That was a common thing, yeah.
Chin: Would the ... Gee, I don't know. Would there be any fishing trips, using the ships at all?
Rudy: No.
Chin: [00:46:00] Okay.
Rudy: Not that I remember.
Chin: Yeah. So whenever you got the crabs out of the ocean was just because you put a-
Rudy: With the mine, or when we were alongside the dock, we would put a net down there and hope a crab comes into it. And then when we were out to sea, we would put a line from the stern, hoping to catch a fish. Not especially for fishing, no.
Chin: Many fish caught that way?
Rudy: You [00:46:30] mean off the stern?
Chin: Yeah.
Rudy: Oh yeah.
Chin: What the big ones? I mean, some of these gigantic cod fish that they drag up out there.
Rudy: Cod, and this snapper, a snapper a couple of times. They would always go for the big fish, so naturally the bait would be big, and the hook would be big, so they're not as plentiful. Didn't want to bother with the small fish.
Chin: Yes. The traffic, ship traffic and-
Rudy: [00:47:00] Yeah, oh yeah, it was busy and when we would work in the channel itself, we would have to alert the mine company ashore to keep [00:47:30] the traffic away from us until we got through it. And they would say how to slow down or so, or wait until we got out of the way.
Otherwise, see there's only two channels out the gate, the south and the main channel. So, if we were in the main channel then they would ask the ships not to come in at that time. But there was a lot of traffic.
Chin: [00:48:00] I'd heard at one time they were not having the Italian fishing boats from Fisherman's Wharf go out without being escorted. I don't know, did you-
Rudy: I don't think I can help you on that. I don't know.
Chin: Okay. Let's see, when did you leave the mine planting service?
Rudy: When I was discharged in '45, I believe it was July or August of '45.
Chin: And at that time the minefields were still intact?
Rudy: Yes, the [00:48:30] minefield was intact. Now, this something again, I don't whether it's worth you writing about it; but at the end of the war, as you may have read or heard, that the soldiers were discharged based on points they acquired. For every month of service they got a point or so. And then the orders would come down to release all the soldiers [00:49:00] with 90 points or more, or so on. And then a month or so later, it would be down 80 points and so on. But that did not apply to officers. If the officer was needed, they could declare them essential and they could keep him on as long as they wanted. Well that was the case with me. I had more than enough points to come out in the first wave of discharges, [00:49:30] but being that I was an officer, I was kept back.
And then they were releasing the crews, releasing the soldiers, that most of the time we didn't have enough crew to go out to the minefields. I was kept back in order to get the mines up. But, there for several months, we had not enough crew to use the ship.
Chin: But the [00:50:00] ship kept working anyway.
Rudy: Well, not very much. At times we couldn't go because we didn't have the crew.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: But whenever we assembled enough crew for the ship, and the mine crew, then we would go out, otherwise we would lay alongside the dock.
Chin: I see. So did you stay until the entire minefield was taken out?
Rudy: Yes. That was about July of '45. No, '46, what am I talking ... '46.
Chin: Oh, well then you certainly stayed in [00:50:30] way past your time then.
Rudy: Yeah.
Chin: Yeah. Were all the mines ... Did they have to blow some of them up to get rid of them?
Rudy: No, none of them were blown up to my knowledge. They were all picked up and they were brought back, as I said, either Fort Scott, Fort Baker, and some over on Treasure. Not Treasure Island, Goat Island.
Chin: Oh, Goat Island.
Rudy: On the south side, which is a [00:51:00] Coast Guard warehouse, or something like that now. That's where some of the equipment, not mines itself, but the equipment, cable and that was put over there. Probably because they couldn't handle everything at Fort Scott and Baker, so they took the overflow out there.
Chin: I see. So when you say Fort Scott, this is that mine wharf that's still out there by ...
Rudy: Yeah. It's still there.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: As I know.
Chin: [00:51:30] Yes.
Rudy: Fort Baker is still there too.
Chin: Yes, that's true. I guess some of the wharf is still there.
Rudy: Yeah, I think still there. I really haven't been in there, but I can see as I drive over the bridge, I can see there's a lot of yachts down there in the cove.
Chin: Yeah, that's where it is.
Were there other boats that ... I guess that's where all the L boats and things like that were docked?
Rudy: Yeah, in Fort Baker. They were in Fort Baker itself, and we were a little further closer to Sausalito.
Chin: [00:52:00] Yes. So you were around the other side of Fort Baker.
Rudy: Around the back, yeah.
Chin: Yeah, and went around.
Rudy: Yeah, if you were to drive over that way, down Alexander Avenue to Sausalito, just before you enter Sausalito, if you look down. In fact, as you go down towards Sausalito, there's a Y that goes back towards Fort Baker, right at that Y.
Chin: Oh, I see. So you would be-
Rudy: Right before you come to first house of Sausalito, and then you see [00:52:30] wooden steps going downhill.
Chin: I see. Did you ever take any photographs of that area, with your mine planters or anything? Did you have any photos?
Rudy: No, I don't think so.
Chin: Oh, okay. Well I think that-
Rudy: I have a picture of the Spurgin.
Chin: Oh do you? Was that a picture you took, or you've got ...
Rudy: I took it. I think this was ... I took it in [00:53:00] Cincinnati, of all places. As we were coming down the river from Point Pleasant, that was in the early part of '43, which had one of the worst floods they had on that river. So we left Point Pleasant and got down to Cincinnati, and then we couldn't get under the bridge. So even though the yardarms wasn't put on the ship, we still couldn't get under it, so we stayed there for [00:53:30] about 10 days, until the water receded, and then we got under there.
Then we went down to Louisville, then we couldn't get under the bridge at Louisville, and then we laid there several days. And then down to Cairo, and I think we stayed there a couple of days. And then once we got into the Mississippi, then it was clear sailing down to New Orleans.
Chin: And then you said you went through the Panama Canal to get up into the Pacific.
Rudy: No, we worked down there for about six months. We went through the Panama [00:54:00] Canal like a ferry service.
Chin: I see. The work down, was that sort of a shakedown, or training cruise?
Rudy: No, no, no.
Chin: You were actually working on the field, or something.
Rudy: No, we were working the field, because at that time they didn't have enough ... Normally there was a planter assigned to the Atlantic side and one to the Pacific side.
Chin: Of the canal.
Rudy: Of the canal.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: And I don't know what the problem was. See, we were [00:54:30] the 14th planter, so there were still two to be built after us. So that might have been before the two were completed that they used us down there. So we were going back and forth, do a few days on one side of the canal, and then a few days on the other.
Chin: Oh, by the way, was the class of planters that you were on, was that a bigger ship than the Niles, for instance?
Rudy: It was a little bigger than the Niles. And all the rest of them, they were really [00:55:00] old ships, like the Baird that I was on, that was built in, I believe, 1919. And the Ord, that was in harbor defenses of New York, I think that was built about 1909. Schofield down in, where, Chesapeake Bay, that was an older ship, I don't know just when it was built.
And the Army had, at that time, I don't think this fits into [00:55:30] your scheme of things here, but they had a cable layer named ... I can't think of its name now. But that cable layer was sold after the war to Greece, and I understand it's still running out there in Greece.
Chin: Well, I read that the Niles is still running up in Alaska or something, well, maybe it's not running, like you say, but it still belongs to somebody, that's what I read.
Rudy: I really [00:56:00] don't know, I lost track.
Chin: Well that's all right. Well I think that I ... I can't think of anymore questions. Oh, so after the service, you decide to stay in the Bay Area, or in San Francisco, is that what happened?
Rudy: No, I stayed in San Francisco, I went to work for the federal government in the appraisers building. And then after about [00:56:30] eight, nine months, I got itchy feet to go to sea again, so I went back to New York, where I worked before I went into service. And I worked on the Hudson River Bay Line. I don't know if you're familiar with that?
Chin: That's not one of those cruise-
Rudy: Yeah, it was-
Chin: It is.
Rudy: Excursion steamers that ran up to Albany.
Chin: Yeah, I didn't ever take that one, but I've been at the very mouth of it, looking way off into the distance. That [00:57:00] sounds like it'd be an interesting trip to go all the way up there.
Rudy: Yeah, but they're not going anymore.
Chin: Oh they're not?
Rudy: Those were the biggest steamers, inland steamers in the country. They were named after explorers like Henry Hudson, Alexander Hamilton, Robert Fulton, Peter Stuyvesant. I went to work there, and I worked there for a couple of years, and then I ... The company was going to [00:57:30] be sold and absorbed by someone else, and I didn't feel that that would be best for me, under new management, so I left and came out to San Francisco again, and I went to work for Southern Pacific.
Chin: Oh, well that's a complete change, or did you work on one of their tugs or something?
Rudy: No, Southern Pacific, on the ferry.
Chin: Okay. They don't still run anything like that do they?
Rudy: No, no. But I went to work on the ferry Eureka, [00:58:00] the one that's a museum piece now.
Chin: Oh, I see. These weren't for loading any ... This is for transferring their passengers from one-
Rudy: Yes, and the railway express.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: No automobiles, no.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: Then after a couple of years there, I realized that Southern Pacific wasn't going to keep the ferries for too long, so I took the exam for the city and then when I got called, [00:58:30] I went to work for the city. And I went to work as a junior engineer. And I retired as Superintendent of the Performing Arts Center.
Chin: Oh I see. Now-
Rudy: You know where that is?
Chin: That must be down in the Civic Center somewhere.
Rudy: Yeah, well that's the Opera House and the Symphony Hall.
Chin: Oh okay, all right. Those are the names I know, I guess the name that you gave it-
Rudy: Well overall it's known as the Performing Arts Center, all three buildings are known as Performing Arts Center.
Chin: I see. Okay. [00:59:00] I guess only recently they start calling them that. Before, I'd never heard that one.
Rudy: Before they built the Symphony Hall, it was known as the War Memorial.
Chin: Yeah.
Rudy: The Opera House and the War Memorial reference building.
Chin: Yes. Oh, so you were ... Well of course you were in San Francisco when the UN Conference, when they had that.
Rudy: No. The UN Conference was in '45.
Chin: Yes.
Rudy: All right. I was still in the Army.
Chin: Yeah, I know.
Rudy: [00:59:30] And when that was going on, I was in uniform, and I still being in uniform, I couldn't walk on that side of the street, that's how heavily guarded that was.
Chin: Oh, so you're talking about at the War Memorial, Opera House and all that, you couldn't ...
Rudy: Yeah, I wasn't working there. I never even dreamed that I'd be ever working there. But then later on, when they had a 10th anniversary of the United Nations, they set up shop here for a whole month in San Francisco. [01:00:00] They brought their officers from New York to San Francisco, that would be in '55, and I was there, I was working there then.
Chin: Oh, okay.
Rudy: I was there during that time. And then I was there later on, but there was never anything as elaborate as that.
Chin: No, I guess not, that was a big event. So you actually walked by it, and you could see the gathering across the street.
Rudy: During the 10th anniversary.
Chin: Oh okay, but the first time.
Rudy: The original [01:00:30] one, no, I just know it was going on, but I wasn't working there, so I had nothing to do with that.
Chin: Okay, but you said that you were on the other side of the street, and you couldn't get any closer than that.
Rudy: That's right, yeah. I'm only saying that to emphasize how it was guarded.
Chin: Yes. Yeah, my book also includes quite a bit on sort of the history of San Francisco during the wartime, to sort of tie it in, to give some local flavor, so I'm interested in things like that. Any other, [01:01:00] anything that you remember that you might have done in San Francisco that might be of interest.
Rudy: Me personally?
Chin: Oh yeah. Or anything you saw, or I don't know. Some interesting things.
Rudy: I didn't do anything spectacular.
Chin: No, I don't mean anything spectacular, but just as you say, you were near the UN Conference, and there was heavy security. I haven't had any [01:01:30] information quite like that yet, so something like that will also figure into the story. I could just mention that there was heavy security.
Rudy: I can tell you about ... I was there during with the three presidents, coming to the Opera House.
Chin: This was when?
Rudy: Now, you put a question.
Chin: This sounds like it must've been after World War II.
Rudy: Oh yeah, after war, President Eisenhower was [01:02:00] there, let's see, President Carter, and let's see, who else, the Queen of England was in the Symphony Hall. So I was, for all of these dignitaries with their secret service that accompanies them, I was working with them, arranging for their security. So I was pretty much involved with them [01:02:30] as how to secure the building under their direction.
Chin: So you were the superintendent, or were in charge of the facilities.
Rudy: Yeah, the whole [inaudible 01:02:40] properties, yes.
Chin: So, did you get passes to attend all the operas and concerts?
Rudy: Well, not necessarily. I could always, I mean, anything that I wanted to see, I could get in. But you see the opera and the symphony is not a city [01:03:00] function. The building is city, I worked for the city, but they are a private organization, and they are tenants in the house. So even though we had a good rapport with them, and I could always get a pass, but I had no given right to, because they rent the house.
Chin: I see.
Rudy: Of course symphony and the opera, they rent the house at a much cheaper rate than someone else would, because [01:03:30] of something that's in the original trust. When those buildings were being built, they were built with mostly private donations, some city funds, I mean, for the construction of the building, but mostly private. And the symphony and the opera and the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and the American Legion, they all gave money towards construction of that. And for that, they [01:04:00] were given certain rights in those buildings, in the original charter.
Chin: I'd heard that the World War I collection of all the tank and of some artillery pieces, and all that stuff, that used to be out at the de Young Museum, ended up in the, I don't know, the War Memorial Opera House or something. Do you recall seeing anything like that in there?
Rudy: No. No, there's a replica of [01:04:30] the Liberty Bell, and there's a little museum of ... Army museum such as sabers of famous generals, and some handguns and rifles and so on, on the first floor of the reference building, that's all there is.
Chin: Oh.
Rudy: Not-
[silence 01:05:01]
Description
Interview with Rudy Palihnich discussing army and civilian life in the Golden Gate as a mine planter from 1941 to 1946
Copyright and Usage Info