Oral History Interview with John Andrew Alexander, Natalie W. Rothenburg, and Fred L. Dunn Pt. 2

Transcript

Transcript

Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board oral history collection, Washington, D.C. segregation, desegregation interviews. Second part of the interview with Mrs. Rothenburg, Mr. Alexander, and Dr. Dunn. Uh, we stopped, uh, at the point that we were talking about the closing of Central and the reopening of the school under a new name, Cardozo, same location. And, uh, one thing I just wanna be sure about: the old Cardozo was closed at that point. Is that correct? Natalie Rothenburg: Old Central. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Old Cardozo. Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, the old Car—oh, yeah. I see what you’re sayin’. Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Was it torn down after that? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: What happened to it? Do you remember? Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t know, come to think of it. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: It wasn’t in the same location, obviously? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, no. Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, no, no. Oloye Adeyemon: Do you happen to know where it had been located? John Alexander: I’m not even sure where it was located. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. John Alexander: Uh— Natalie Rothenburg: Cardozo—hmm. John Alexander: - what about that facility down at, uh, [unintelligible 01:10] Avenue and s—about 7th Street? Was that— Natalie Rothenburg: It was down that—in that direction, but I can’t tell you for sure. John Alexander: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: Absolutely. I can’t tell you for sure. Oloye Adeyemon: In-in Delaware, um, one of the plans, desegregation plans that was developed involved, uh, the entire New Castle County, not just Wilmington, um, because w-with Wilmington being desegregated, it was still—it was not integrated because, uh, by that many whites had moved to the suburbs. And so they did a countywide, uh, desegregation plan, divided the county into four sections, which divided Wilmington, essentially in four sections. And in order to achieve racial balance, which for many was a little different than desegregation, it was actually integration. They bussed, and, um, Black students had to be bussed for nine years, and white students would for three. And as a result of that, there were Black students that started high school and had to leave the high school and go into neighborhood high school to go into a school that, um, not only was, uh, outside of the neighborhood but many of the people that were coming into the school from outside the neighborhood. And, um, it was interesting that, um, native Black students, um, I don’t—uh, it wasn’t so much they were against integration but just the idea of havin’ to leave their high school after having started. And the reason I ask that specifically is because Mrs. Suggs 02:41 thinks that she heard somewhere that some of—I don’t know whether they were alumni at that point. I got—I’m not quite clear on that, whether they were students. But that the-the, uh, cornerstone of Central High was taken because some of the students felt so strongly about their alma mater. Have any of you heard that? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, a cornerstone is at Sumner. Oloye Adeyemon: The cornerstone— Natalie Rothenburg: Another cornerstone is at, uh, the Howard Mansion in the backyard. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, I don’t know where it is. I knew— Natalie Rothenburg: Huh? Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. My understanding that-that— Frederick Dunn Jr.: It was removed. Oloye Adeyemon: - I don’t know how it got there to that point. But I understand— Natalie Rothenburg: But I thought-I thought [unintelligible 03:18] brought from, uh, uh— Frederick Dunn Jr.: [Crosstalk 03:21]. Natalie Rothenburg: - the Howard Mansion, brought it to, uh, Sumner. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Maybe down there. Oloye Adeyemon: Might-might be. But I’m speaking now about the point at which the school— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, when it closed, you mean? Whether there was— Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - uh, argument or anything about it? Oloye Adeyemon: Whether some of the students or alumni or parents were upset. And I understand it—not only were they upset, but there was a great deal of controversy about it, uh, with the white community feeling that it should not have occurred. I was hopin’ that maybe [crosstalk 03:46]— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: - you felt that way personally if you could throw some light on that. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I’m sure that—from what—I-I don’t know anything about that except that, uh, they closed it, and they were a l—you know, people didn’t want it to close, but there wasn’t much population around there. And we had the white flight, so to speak. Oloye Adeyemon: It had already started. Right. Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, yes. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, yeah. It started right after the war. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: In about, uh, ’47, ’48, I guess. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: It started probably—really—you could check in the papers as for the-the—what-what happened. Oloye Adeyemon: So could that have been a factor in them choosing that school for that, uh, particular, uh, closing? Was it the case that Cardozo was then in an area that had-had increased in the Black population in that neighborhood? Was that a factor? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Makes sense. John Alexander: Yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Probably that’s what it was. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: So by that time, then white students would’ve had to be—had to have come into an area that would’ve had a larger Black population than it had earlier. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I’m sure. Natalie Rothenburg: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: So the Cardozo closed in 1950. Did the white students who were goin’ to Cardozo go to another school— Frederick Dunn Jr.: There wasn’t any white students in Cardozo. Oloye Adeyemon: Not Cardozo. I’m sorry, Central. Did they go to different schools— Frederick Dunn Jr.: They would’ve, yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - as opposed to all of them going to the same school. They didn’t— [Crosstalk 05:16] Frederick Dunn Jr.: And whoever else was there. John Alexander: Depending on where they lived. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. We’re back to that, depending on where they lived. Oloye Adeyemon: But—so it wasn’t just them going to a school that had a small population? Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. Oloye Adeyemon: Some went to one area, some went to another. So do you think there would’ve been any instances where, as a result of this, white students might’ve had to been bussed? When I-when I say “bussed,” might’ve had to get public transportation [crosstalk 05:40]— Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t think we did bus— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, we-we didn’t do buses. Oloye Adeyemon: Not bussing, but where there was— Frederick Dunn Jr.: We just— Oloye Adeyemon: - a distance enough for some of the white students that would’ve been going—who lived close to Central who, because of this change, might had to go a long distance. Frederick Dunn Jr.: But see the tran—the transportation system in [unintelligible 05:55] is not a big area. Oloye Adeyemon: So it wasn’t—that would’ve been— Frederick Dunn Jr.: And the transportation with the streetcars and buses, you go from one end of the city to the other. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Correct. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And if you were a student, uh, you bought— Natalie Rothenburg: Student pass—a student pass, yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Little, uh— Natalie Rothenburg: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: So that wouldn’t of been a difficulty [crosstalk 06:12]— Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. No. Natalie Rothenburg: No. Oloye Adeyemon: - any of the whites at Central who had to go a longer distance? Natalie Rothenburg: No. No. No. And-and with a student pass, you didn’t pay as much. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Someone would walk, uh—you know, when I lived there in—up near Parkview, it was a mile or so to the Central, and it wasn’t unusual for the kids goin’ there to walk to— Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and from and— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - even— John Alexander: It was about a mile from where I lived to Central. And— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. John Alexander: - and— Frederick Dunn Jr.: [Unintelligible 06:36] both ways. John Alexander: Riding public transportation was awkward because of transfers. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. John Alexander: So-so I walked— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - practically a hundred percent of the time. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And part of the awkwardness would’ve been having to wait for— John Alexander: Having to wait for a streetcar— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, they came boom, boom, boom. John Alexander: - and havin’ to transfer— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - and, uh— Frederick Dunn Jr.: And there were two tra—and they were several transportation systems too. There was—it was Capital Transit at one time, and then there was another one— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and sometimes you had a problem with the transfers because— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - of the different systems. Oloye Adeyemon: Now— John Alexander: Well, I was involved [unintelligible 07:10]. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. John Alexander: From Virginia to Maryland Frederick Dunn Jr.: Maryland. John Alexander: Washington, D.C. Oloye Adeyemon: So you hit on something again that was the direction I was going to go. I understand that the white schools had not just a diverse population of people of European descent but that you had Asians— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: You had, uh—and-and when I say that, I-I-I’m thinking of Chinese and— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - I understand that there were even some East Indians that were going to the white schools, and some of them quite dark in complexion. That’s somethin’ that you— Frederick Dunn Jr.: For sure, yeah. John Alexander: I didn’t have an experience with it. Natalie Rothenburg: I didn’t have—with that, but I certainly had Chinese— John Alexander: The Chinese. Natalie Rothenburg: - and Greeks and— Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I interviewed some— Frederick Dunn Jr.: A lot of Jewish. Oloye Adeyemon: I interviewed Mrs. Suggs, and she remembers, uh, going to school with an East Indian— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - who was very dark in complexion. And I wish I could interview him, asking, “Well, you know, you were accepted into the white school, but when you were walking down the street and people didn’t know, what happened?” Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And I guess the question that I have is, uh, did the Jewish children, the Chinese children, the others, uh, s—w-were—w-was there—they were going to the white school. Did they experience any discrimination in Washington durin’ those years? John Alexander: I imagine there was some discrimination— Natalie Rothenburg: Well, yeah. I guess you’re gonna have discrimination [crosstalk 08:36]— John Alexander: - against Chinese. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. I didn’t—I don’t recall any incident in which, you know, somebody is say—is upset or whatever have you being Jewish or— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - whatever. I don’t-I don’t recall that. Oloye Adeyemon: So it wouldn’t of been like it might’ve been in-in the Deep South or, uh— Natalie Rothenburg: No. I don’t think so. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t think we were as-as— Oloye Adeyemon: As segregated in that regard. Natalie Rothenburg: Right. Right. In-in attitude or anything. Oloye Adeyemon: So— Natalie Rothenburg: Because I went down south one time, and I couldn’t understand what the devil was the problem. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: I mean, you know, somebody told me to—well, no. I better not say. Oloye Adeyemon: Really? Why? Natalie Rothenburg: I’m goin’ down the street like this, and a Black person’s coming towards me, and I moved over. And somebody said to me, “Don’t move over.” And I’m like, “Wh-what-what are you talkin’ about?” Frederick Dunn Jr.: Right. Natalie Rothenburg: And they said, “Well, you don’t have to move over for a Black person.” Frederick Dunn Jr.: I was told by— Natalie Rothenburg: So I couldn’t under—I mean, I’m like— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Right. Natalie Rothenburg: “What are you talkin’ about? I’m—I mean, we’re gonna crash into each other if somebody doesn’t move.” John Alexander: Somebody has to get [crosstalk 09:39]— Natalie Rothenburg: It was a little, narrow, uh, lane, like, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: In most areas of the Deep South, Black people were expected to get on the street, even if there was room to pass, just step [crosstalk 09:50]— Natalie Rothenburg: Well, that’s s— [Crosstalk 09:50] Natalie Rothenburg: - I experienced that for myself. John Alexander: You know, in that respect, it’s quite a bit of difference, uh, in different states. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: I’m sure what you’re talkin’ about there was the situation in Mississippi— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - and maybe Alabama and Georgia. But I don’t think so in—necessarily in, uh, uh, North Carolina, maybe, uh, South Carolina. I don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. People in South Carolina were connected—whose court case was connected to the prime case indicated that they—that definitely was the prevalent— John Alexander: Yeah. And there was even-even a difference in some of the states between who was designated a colored person and who was not. Oloye Adeyemon: Can you explain that to me? John Alexander: Well, I think, uh, North Carolina, I believe, if a person was 1/64 Negro or less, they were considered white. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. John Alexander: But in other states, they would be cons—in southern states, they would be considered, uh, Negro. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know that they changed that, uh, designation in Louisiana. Early on, it was very common for fair complexion people to be treated— John Alexander: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - and even legislated as white, but later, um, it was changed, and it was very difficult. And they-they found themselves, uh, receivin’ some of the same prejudice—the Creoles would receive some of the same prejudice of treatment. Natalie Rothenburg: But I think in D.C., we had such a variety of people not only who came to work from the government— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - from Timbuktu— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - or wherever— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - and people from all countries that you don’t necessarily have in, say, western Virginia or Mis-Missouri, at the time I’m talkin’ about now. I’m not talkin’ about now. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: But I mean, there was— Frederick Dunn Jr.: You had ambassadors and— Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. And you got used to— Frederick Dunn Jr.: - from all over the world. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - you just sort of knew that, you know, that you have—and I went to school—let’s see, it was somebody whose father was, uh—he-he want—he wanted his kids to go to a regular public school, not a private school. He was, like, an ambassador or something. And, you know, you just got— Frederick Dunn Jr.: [Unintelligible 11:55]. Natalie Rothenburg: - you just knew it, you know. You just—a lot of people from everywhere. John Alexander: It’s interesting to me, uh, particularly as a golfer, current situation. Tiger Woods— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: Oh, yeah. He’s great. John Alexander: Yeah. Tiger’s mother is-is 100 percent Thai. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. John Alexander: She’s from Thailand. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And his father is 50 percent Negro and 50 percent American Indian. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And if I— Natalie Rothenburg: Boy, has he got a combo. John Alexander: And-and that Tiger is considered Afro-American. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Well, only 25 percent. Uh, his bloodline-bloodline is Afro-American. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: But— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And-and-and that’s always been the case. John Alexander: It’s always been the case. Oloye Adeyemon: People have designated themselves for social reasons, political reasons. And I think that what you just touched on is one of the peripheral issues around this whole story because— John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - we’re talkin’ about designation of race. And I think that one of the reasons even here recently with, uh, the-the, uh, census offering a different category for people to use. Uh, many African Americans are saying that this—the-the way in which—not just the way in which African Americans have been designated but the different terms trying to find the right term to use to be designated is important because of a sense of, uh, identity, a sense of culture, which has been der—very difficult because of this—the reasons for which, uh, African Americans came to the country and the condit—so I think that what you just touched on is a-is a major issue. And it’s not just a issue for Blacks. It’s an issue for whites because the whole idea of designating people as white and Black is an American phenomenon. It’s not done in Africa. It’s not done in Europe, and I think that’s very important. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And I’m glad you mentioned that because that’s a— John Alexander: I-I dated a woman for a while whose ancestry was southern Italy. And, uh, she’s quite—she was quite dark. And, uh, she was working in Richmond for a while, and, uh, she had problems because, uh, uh, a lot of the people there in the-in the Richmond area, a lot of the white people there considered as being, uh, Afro-American. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that’s—I’m glad you-you mentioned that because— John Alexander: If you looked at her nose, you could tell it. She wasn’t Afro-American. She was-she was Italian. She had that big Italian hook nose. Oloye Adeyemon: But, when we really get down to it, race is a very difficult thing to pin down because— John Alexander: Yes. Interviewer 2: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - you know, there’s always been intermixture of people. It’s all a matter of politics. It’s just— John Alexander: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - who you are many times. Or it could just be a matter of ethnicity because ethnic groups and Jewish, uh, people are a good example of that. Uh, one not does not have to be any particular skin color or from any particular national origin to be a Jew. So it’s—this is-this is a very complex issue, and, obviously, uh, that debate is not gonna be solved here in this collection, but it’s good to be touched on [crosstalk 14:57]. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And I’m glad you mentioned that. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Because that—that’s one of the things that complicates this kind of discussion. John Alexander: Yes. Yes. It certainly does. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, going back, uh, to the schools again. What did you know at that time of the, uh, environment in the Black schools, education environment, or about the quality of education that Black students were receiving? Did you have any sense of how it compared during the time [crosstalk 15:27]— Natalie Rothenburg: During the time you’re talking about? Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: I have no—I have absolutely no— John Alexander: My-my— Natalie Rothenburg: - knowledge. John Alexander: - impression at the time was Dunbar was a-was a sup-was a superior Black school. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: What-what made you feel that way? What-what information did you have about them? John Alexander: Ah, it was just in general. Oloye Adeyemon: Was it something that you just heard? John Alexander: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, [crosstalk 15:47]— Natalie Rothenburg: I’ll agree with that. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: But I don’t-I don’t I— Frederick Dunn Jr.: I think they had a very— Natalie Rothenburg: - witnessed it. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - selective process for their-their students there. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Uh, it was, in fact, uh, one of the best schools for African Americans in the entire country, and people— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - actually would send their children— Natalie Rothenburg: Children to Dunbar. Oloye Adeyemon: - to Washington. And this was not just from the South. There were even areas of the north where people sent their children— John Alexander: They’re goin’ to Dunbar. Oloye Adeyemon: - to go to Dunbar School— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - specifically. Perhaps the best, if not, uh, right up there of all the schools—uh, high schools [crosstalk 16:20]. Natalie Rothenburg: Have you been-have you been to Cardozo? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I was. Natalie Rothenburg: Have you been inside— Oloye Adeyemon: No. Natalie Rothenburg: - of the school? Oloye Adeyemon: No. I have not. Natalie Rothenburg: Okay. Oloye Adeyemon: Why? Was it— Natalie Rothenburg: Well, I was thinking of Miss—uh, Mrs. Johnson. You remember how we went down there, and I was thinking about her. Um, ’cause I found-I found her very amazing. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, she’s not the principal now. Natalie Rothenburg: No. I know that. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: But, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Is she still alive? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I suppose so. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: How long ago— Natalie Rothenburg: I think she’s just retired. Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 16:45]— Natalie Rothenburg: No, a couple years. Oloye Adeyemon: Couple years? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I don’t know ’cause I-I was, uh, I chaired our-our alumni association scholarship committee down in there for the past—well, for five years, I guess. And then it’s two years since I gave it up. And she had left before that. So she’s— Natalie Rothenburg: Oh. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - been gone about seven years. Oloye Adeyemon: Why’d you mention her? Natalie Rothenburg: Well, because I-I was always, uh, kind of impressed with her when, uh, she—well, we have a, um, spring tea—alumni used to have it too. And, uh, she was invited as, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: And, uh, one time, we went—we were invited by her to come to the school to see how the school was doing. And she [unintelligible 17:30] was very low-key talk, very soft and this kind of thing. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: And she was the principal. But it turns out she was no—I mean, she was a tough old bird when it got down to being principal of the school. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: And, uh, she took us around. It was—I think, during Easter or something like that. She took us around the school, and she was very strict. I mean, no—she apparently laid the law down to the students, Black or white— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - she laid the law down. From what I gather from things that she said and things that I saw, um, she wasn’t gonna put up with a lot of stuff. Oloye Adeyemon: And what about— Natalie Rothenburg: She was a Black, uh, principal. Oloye Adeyemon: There weren’t a lot of white students at—there at the time. Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t think there were too many— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: - but there must’ve been some. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I’m sure there were some. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Natalie Rothenburg: And, uh, she wouldn’t allow graffiti, and she wouldn’t allow this and wouldn’t allow that. And, you know, she was really-really—uh, I was impressed with that, really. I was because she, as I say, every time I ever spoke with her, she was so soft and spoke so quietly, you know, and this kind of thing. But I bet you she really was a-a tough one when it came to the school. Frederick Dunn Jr.: She was fair. Natalie Rothenburg: She wouldn’t let—huh? Frederick Dunn Jr.: But she was fair. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. But she wouldn’t let them destroy things. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Of course not. Natalie Rothenburg: I mean, she wouldn’t allow that. Oloye Adeyemon: I wanna direct, uh, some of the, um, questions now to you, uh, Dr. Dunn. But if-if anyone has— Natalie Rothenburg: Okay. Oloye Adeyemon: - anything, [unintelligible 19:00]. As an educator, uh, w—do you feel—’cause t-this is a several part question. I wanna start here, though. Do you feel that in the immediate aftermath of desegregation that the quality of education improved? Frederick Dunn Jr.: You mean in the immediate for when-when they— Oloye Adeyemon: As soon as the schools— Frederick Dunn Jr.: - desegregated? Oloye Adeyemon: - were actually, uh, desegregated. During that immediate period following the court implementation, uh, let’s say for the next few years. Let’s say— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: - the children that are in school at that point. Frederick Dunn Jr.: You see, Baltimore, Washington, and what was the other one? Was it Cincinnati, St. Louis—uh, what was it? Which one was it? Carmichael? Who was the superintendent? Do you know? Oloye Adeyemon: Where? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Out in—with the St. Louis or where—there were three of ’em that went in. Well, May the 17th, ’54. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Um, that following September— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - Baltimore, Washington, and I think the guy’s name was Carmichael or something out in St. Louis— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - tho-those three— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - went into desegregation immediately. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Montgomery County didn’t go in ’til the following year following the—the follow-up, the 1955— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - decision, which— Oloye Adeyemon: And that’s one of the counties in Maryland bordering, uh— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. We were border— Natalie Rothenburg: [Crosstalk 20:32] down. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - border Washington. But see, Baltimore is a city. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Frederick Dunn Jr.: In the state of Maryland, you have 23 counties and the city of Baltimore. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Baltimore’s not a part of a county. We have Baltimore County, but Baltimore’s a city. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And they went into it immediately. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Um, Montgomery County waited a year until that second decision came down— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and then we went into it at that time. And, uh, it was—for-for the three of ’em because I-I talked with, uh, the—with the people in-in Washington, and I talked with the people in Baltimore, and I was on the committee with a fella down—I think it was Carmichael. I’m not sure what his name was down there. And, uh, you’ve got administrative problems, and then you have the school problems. Oloye Adeyemon: What are the administrative problems? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, I mean, just bringing the—people together, like the backgrounds. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, in some of these cases, you actually had separate divisions, and in some cases, even separate school districts for the Black and white in some of these school systems. Is that correct? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, they all did before. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I mean, there was— Oloye Adeyemon: ’Cause I think here it was one district with different divisions, right? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. They had—in-in Washington, they had a superintendent of the schools— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and then they had—I don’t think it was a separate Black superintendent, but there was a designated person, whether he was the assistant superintendent in charge of the schools or what, I don’t know how it was. Oloye Adeyemon: So part of the administrative problem would be combining— Frederick Dunn Jr.: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: - these people? But then it also has to do with what’s gonna happen to the Black teachers and the white teachers, all the [crosstalk 22:13]— Frederick Dunn Jr.: That’s right. Oloye Adeyemon: - people. Frederick Dunn Jr.: That’s right. And then-and then in, uh, Baltimore, it was the same thing. You had one superintendent, and then they had to—now, I don’t know what-what their structure was in the separate schools— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - but you did have the problem who was gonna be supervisor with English department, who was gonna be super—all-all this. And they went into it right away. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And, uh—so they had, uh—a lot of things we learned in that year— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - but Montgomery County, it was a different situation because we had people who wanted to desegregated. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Of course, we had people who didn’t want to, and Montgomery County will study things on into night. We’ll have committees for this and study it and study it and study it, and we’ll—we want perfection. We never get anything done, you know. We want it perfect. And, uh, so anyhow, they went in, and next one [unintelligible 23:06] special assistant at that time. Oloye Adeyemon: So these difficulties that were essentially administrative, did they have an impact on the quality of education while these decisions were being made and these— Frederick Dunn Jr.: I would think they would because everybody was nervous, you know. I mean, uh, especially in, like, in Baltimore and [unintelligible 23:26] because you were coming right into it. In our system, uh, e-even the education su—uh, associations were separate, at least in-in Montgomery. But when they started, like, in ’54, we did away with that, and we had one-one system. What they did in Baltimore, I don’t-I don’t know because they were—the whole thing was-was separated. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And, uh, so you had the administrative. You had the—you know, that kind of politics and so on. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, was this being a—y-y-you said Baltimore went first, then Montgomery County— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, Baltimore. Baltimore, Washington, and-and-and the other place. Oloye Adeyemon: At the point that Montgomery joins, is this a point where everyone in the state of Maryland is-is involved? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Or was still— Frederick Dunn Jr.: - in a sen—in a sense, uh, everybody’s involved in the state of Maryland because you see, when that-when that decision came down, uh, on May 17th, 1954— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - it was known at that time that we were gonna be desegregating schools. We didn’t know how. And then when they came through, we’re gonna do it with all deliberate speed. And-and that—yeah. You mentioned earlier about deliberate speed, whatever that meant. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And it meant a lot of things to different people. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: But the state of Maryland, the governor came out at that time and said, “We will obey the law.” Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: “We’re going to do this.” Doesn’t make any difference what—it was the law. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: It was gonna be the law. We’re gonna do it. The attorney—state’s attorney general came through and said, “We’re gonna do it.” Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Gonna obey the law. State superintendent of schools at that time, Dr. Pullen, went around to each of the 23 counties and the cities of Baltimore and met with-with board of education, not in a public meeting. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And I assume, knowing that he did this in Montgomery, with just the board of education and the superintendent. And there were probably—I was there at this thing when that state superintendent of the schools said, “We are going to follow the law.” Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And—so it was pretty well understood that— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - from the top down— Oloye Adeyemon: But as you said, there was a certain amount of apprehension and nervousness and [crosstalk 25:44]— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, sure. You had people that were leavin’ all kinds of things. You know, you had— Oloye Adeyemon: On both sides of the issue? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, yes. I-I would say, but-but the, uh, the-the-the people who didn’t want any part of it—you know, there was, uh, several newspapers that were published at the time. I mean, uh, they were out of—I-I forget what the name of the one was down there in the South. It-it-it dealt simply with de-de-desegregation. Are you familiar that press? Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And that was— Oloye Adeyemon: Not with the press, but with that effort to-to— Frederick Dunn Jr.: I mean— Oloye Adeyemon: - assimilate information— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 26:19] to oppose. Frederick Dunn Jr.: There was-there was that paper that came out, uh, I don’t know if it was weekly, monthly, or whatever, what everybody was thinkin’ and everybody was— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - doin’. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And, uh, we had it in Montgomery County, of course, people who—they came from all over. Montgomery County is like-like Washington. They’re from all over. They’re from Kansas— Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - Canada, New York, uh, all over. Oloye Adeyemon: Did any of you know about, um, a man named Bowles who was from the Washington, D.C. area? He went up to Delaware, and he, uh, was leading a resistance to segregation orders. Are you all familiar? Natalie Rothenburg: Bowles? Oloye Adeyemon: Bowles. John Alexander: Bowles? Oloye Adeyemon: Ronald Bowles. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I probably knew his-his— Oloye Adeyemon: It was in about ’51 or ’52. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I probably know his— Oloye Adeyemon: I didn’t know [unintelligible 27:01]. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Natalie, you [unintelligible 27:04] national [crosstalk 27:06]— Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. But I’m— Frederick Dunn Jr.: I probably know his organization. At the time, I probably knew who he was, but we had ’em here in Montgomery County, too. They came in— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - from outside. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. I just wondered, with you being as close, if some of that would spill over into Maryland. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, Maryland, you know, is, uh—goin’ back to the Civil War, it’s this-this— Oloye Adeyemon: Divided street. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Huh? Oloye Adeyemon: It was a divided street. Frederick Dunn Jr.: It was— Natalie Rothenburg: Below the Mason-Dixon line. Frederick Dunn Jr.: It was divided state, and then-and then, and the reason they didn’t go south was because they wouldn’t let the, uh, delegates, all of ’em, get to Annapolis to vote. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: They kept ’em out of Annapolis so that the—and we were occupied. Maryland was occupied the whole time during the Civil War— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - because, uh, as I say, it was a divided state. Oloye Adeyemon: So getting back, you know, there wa-was this-this, uh, challenge of merging— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - what had been segregated schools. What difficulties were faced with students and parents and teachers? Well, not so much for the teachers, but the students and parents. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, you had the—I don’t know what you mean by difficulties. Oloye Adeyemon: You know, you had indicated with difficulties both administrative— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: - and— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Well, for example, in-in Montgomery County, we didn’t go right into it. Uh, we didn’t close all-all the Black schools and-and-and merge. Uh, we had four substandard Negro schools in-in Montgomery County in the southern part. And they were not in good shape, and they were closed immediately. And we had a protest on that. Oloye Adeyemon: From who? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh, from the PTA of the one school. Oloye Adeyemon: So the Black parents were complaining because the school had been closed? Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. No. No. No. The Black-Black parents, uh—I guess some of ’em probably didn’t want it to be closed, but I think they were-they were grateful it was closed. Oloye Adeyemon: So you said the PTA at one of the schools—one of the schools that was being integrated. Frederick Dunn Jr.: In one of the schools that was being desegregated, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Gotcha. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh, ’cause that—you know, the difference between that desegregation— Oloye Adeyemon: Sure. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and integration is a [crosstalk 29:16]— Oloye Adeyemon: At this point, we’re not talking about integration. Frederick Dunn Jr.: No. No. Oloye Adeyemon: We’re talkin’ about— Frederick Dunn Jr.: I’m talkin’ about desegregation. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Frederick Dunn Jr.: People are talkin’ about integration. Oloye Adeyemon: But it hasn’t been implemented. Frederick Dunn Jr.: But this is—we were— Oloye Adeyemon: It’s segregation. Frederick Dunn Jr.: It’s primarily desegregating the schools. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And I remember they-they came to the county board of education ’cause they didn’t want it. And, uh, argued that they could do it next year, but they couldn’t do it this year. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And the-the board of education upheld the closing of the school—the-the-the Black school. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: They took it on to the state. Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 29:47] they were in opposition for— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. They took it on to the state board of education. And the, uh, fellow who was, uh, president of the state board at that time was from Eastern Shore, Maryland, which is a highly segregated area. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And he sat there in Baltimore this— Oloye Adeyemon: What was his name? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I don’t remember it now. But he sat there in Baltimore, and-and, uh, this group that was protesting the desegregation in their school. He said, “You say you would take ’em next year.” “Yeah.” “Well, suppose that school burned down today. Would you take ’em?” “Oh, yeah. We’d take ’em.” He said, “It just burned. It just burned.” And—which meant that you’re gonna desegregate the school. And that’s what they did and-and, uh—so and then there were-there were some groups. What’s wrong? You don’t know any of this. John Alexander: No. I’m [unintelligible 30:52]. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Huh? He said it just burned. Well, anyhow. Uh, then the different places did-did it different ways. Oloye Adeyemon: Would you be able to apply any of your experience, uh, you have any firsthand experience with Washington, or can you just knowing the similarities and the system, be able to, you know, throw any light on what might of been happening in Washington at that time? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, Washington was-was having a tough time. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Why so? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Because of the-the different abilities of the students, bringin’ ’em together. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: When you say the different abilities, were the schools, the Black schools, uh, the preparation not the same? Was that a problem? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I don’t know whether you can say that or not—but that. But when you bring different groups together, I don’t care whether it’s—who it is— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - and you’re not used to the-the routine of the school. Uh, my experience was that-that-that the Black schools had more discipline, basically, than the white schools because it was a entirely different culture. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: And-and there was this-this very difficult thing for-for both to adjust to because of the different environment. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: The Black schools ran it one way, and—with their culture, and the whites and— Oloye Adeyemon: That’s fascinating that you said that because that’s come out practically in each community, uh, and some people have seen it as a positive, and some people have seen it as a negative. But that the Black schools during that period were very—the discipline was very, very strict— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Very much so. Oloye Adeyemon: - and the children, uh, it—because of the feeling that their parents and the teachers had about education, there was a great deal of pressure on them, and the teaching was mainly telling them what they needed to know. In the white schools, it was a situation with a lot more freedom and flexibility. And I’ve heard it said—I’ve even heard in a couple cases, I think, white teachers who were working with Black students had to adjust because they were assuming that those students who didn’t raise their hand, who, “Ooh, ooh, I know the answer,” were slow students. And in some cases, students that had done very well, if their parents didn’t come in and demand that they were tested, they were put into a slow track of learning simply because they were very, very respectful. They would never speak up, or they were waiting on someone to ask them. So that’s-that’s a—that’s an interesting, uh, point that you make. Frederick Dunn Jr.: So I was—and they had, as I say, quite a few problems. As a matter of fact, my wife was teaching in the district— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - at that time. She taught there for 16 or 17 years. Oloye Adeyemon: I’d like to ask one question, too, about that before we go on. Would you say—how would you say that that change affected the discipline of the Black students? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I don’t understand— Oloye Adeyemon: Know what’s—how—the-the Black students would’ve been coming into that desegregated classroom, uh, perhaps with a white teacher for the first time, maybe even goin’ to school with white students for the first time. And, you know, they had—they were coming from an environment where they were very, very respectful and— Natalie Rothenburg: It’s sitting on-it’s sitting on the table. Oloye Adeyemon: - you know— Natalie Rothenburg: If you’ll grab it, we’ll, um— Oloye Adeyemon: - very, very, you know, uh, uh, disciplined classroom at least. Uh, so would you say that, um, in your experience or your wife’s experience that there would have been any impact on any of the Black students in terms of that adjustment period? Would that have been difficult, do you think, in some cases? Or do you know of cases where there was some difficulty because of that? Frederick Dunn Jr.: We spent a long time on that one. Yes. Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Can you talk about that a little bit? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I can’t because it takes too long to-to discuss, uh, you know, the whole comp—it’s so complex— Oloye Adeyemon: Can you touch— Frederick Dunn Jr.: - the attitude. Oloye Adeyemon: - on it a little bit because I think it’s an important issue. Just a little bit. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I know it’s important but-but the-the—and that’s why, because it’s so important, you just can’t say it in two or three sentences, uh, the depth of it. We’re still going through it. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh, the different cultures, the different expectations, the different leaders in-in the—in both, uh, white and Black, even today, uh, the feeling that, uh, a lot of people have that-that they’d like to get even so to speak. It’s-it’s-it’s a very complex thing. And, uh, they’re going to experience the same kind of thing when they talkin’ about things in-in Ireland and— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - whether it’s white and white or the different religious backgrounds. It-it needs a lot more study to bring them together than-than given the idea we desegregated, therefore— Oloye Adeyemon: It’s all done. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - it’s [crosstalk 36:00]— Natalie Rothenburg: It’s all done. There’s nothin’. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. And-and it—now, my—the most important experience I had in-in working with-with the public. I never worked with-with groups. I worked with responsible, del-delegated people. The board of ed is probably one to come find, but I worked with them. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: In Montgomery County, basically, the people who were, uh, not really opposed but were worried about desegregating the schools— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - were worried about the same thing that the Blacks and everybody worry about today, the program. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Can my child get an education? Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Blacks, whites, slow children, fast children. This is the big thing— Oloye Adeyemon: Quality education. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - quality education. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh, up in the rural area in Montgomery County, they-they were not—they didn’t want any of this desegregation. It wasn’t—for some people, it was because of Black and white. But for most of ’em, it was, we’re still havin’ reading problems. We’re still havin’ our math problems. Now, if you can give us some more help with that problem, we’ll go along with it. I go down to the southern part, that is, the lower part of Montgomery County. Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 37:18]. Frederick Dunn Jr.: N-no, just in Montgomery County itself. Oh, we gotta do it. You know, we-we gotta desegregate. We go—we’re gonna do it, and everything’s gonna be fine. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, the-these two— Frederick Dunn Jr.: And I said— Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 37:29] would’ve been different in terms of the proportion of Blacks as well, right? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: In the southern, you would’ve had more, the southern counties? Frederick Dunn Jr.: It’s a different organization. When you’re in the rural area, you deal with X, Y, and Z person— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - because these people are-are the leaders— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Oloye Adeyemon: - your postmaster, your politicians, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - the big farmer— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - the guy that runs the feed store. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: The-these are central people. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: You get down in the lower Montgomery County, and I mean— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - closer to the city, we’re organizations. Oloye Adeyemon: I got you. Frederick Dunn Jr.: We have the [crosstalk 37:59]— Oloye Adeyemon: So it wasn’t whether white or Black, they were—they—it was different structures— Frederick Dunn Jr.: It’s a different structure. And here, you had-had the groups, and they were pushing. And we would not of been able to do what we did without the help of the American Friends Service Committee, the [unintelligible 38:15], uh, NAACP— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - um, these organizations who are leaders in this field, the American Friends Service Group. Those that are leaders in-in-in their field. The followers sometimes— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - are way out of line. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. That’s, um—that’s-that’s-that’s helpful. When you look back at the Supreme Court decision, you know, and you were all adults at the time, um, did you look at it as just something that was—well, I think maybe [unintelligible 38:57] had an impact on everybody. But did you think that it was a remedy of something that was affecting Black people or the country? I’d like for each of you to answer that. Did you see it as something that was really remedying a prob-problem that Blacks were facing or remedying a problem that the whole country was facing? And, if so, how would you characterize it? Natalie Rothenburg: Hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Both then and now. Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t know. I’m-I’m tryin’ to think how I thought or why I thought it. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mr. Alexander, can you— John Alexander: Well, I’m not sure either. I-I-I tend to—then and now to think it was a remedy for the-for the Black people, primarily. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: Um, reason I’m sayin’ that, I was just thinking about it while you were talking here of an article that was in the Atlantic Monthly several years ago concerning, uh, the treatment of Black people in this country. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And even though slavery ended in the 1860s— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - but the, uh, effects of how society, white society treated Black people, continued on in the same vein, uh, particularly in-in south—in the South and to a large extent, in the North too. Um, continuing on in the same vein as nearly as they could— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - up in—well-well up into this century. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: And that the, um, Board of Education decision was, uh, uh, in part, to remedy the effects of that, uh, uh, treatment by soci—by white society of the Blacks. And it was—you know, because if-if they—if that decision had not been made, we’d still have separate but equal facilities, you know, in-in much of the, uh, country. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: I think in the northern-northern states, it would’ve been intent—more seg—more education— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - but in the South, it would’ve had—they would’ve still gone right along— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. John Alexander: - with the old, uh, separate but equal up to this very day. Natalie Rothenburg: I think you’re probably right, John. Oloye Adeyemon: You-you kind of agree with that? Natalie Rothenburg: I kind of agree with that, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Is there anything you can add to that? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I looked at it as an educational situation and-and felt that, uh, you know, we were gonna teach. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: We’re gonna work with whomever comes through that door. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now, y—in other words, i-in terms of accepting the decision. You’re saying that you— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yes. There wasn’t any question about accepting it. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Frederick Dunn Jr.: That was the-the law. Natalie Rothenburg: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But now, I-I guess I’m asking, then and now, did you see that as something that—not so much whether you agreed with the decision, but a decision that was, uh, dealing with complaints that were filed in local school districts by Blacks as an issue that affected Blacks or affected the whole country? Frederick Dunn Jr.: I thought it affected the whole country. Oloye Adeyemon: In what way? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Just the education. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I mean, it—I knew there were gonna be a lot of problems. Oloye Adeyemon: But I guess what I’m asking is prior to the decision, uh, there were many people that just didn’t question the way things were. I guess my question is, was the way that things had been something that was just detrimental to Blacks, or was the way that things had been prior to that decision something that was detrimental to the whole country? Frederick Dunn Jr.: Uh, I-I didn’t—I don’t know. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Natalie Rothenburg: I don’t either. I-I—that’s kind of— Frederick Dunn Jr.: I think— Oloye Adeyemon: It’s a difficult question. Like— Natalie Rothenburg: Yes. It is. Oloye Adeyemon: - what do we need to consider? Frederick Dunn Jr.: It’s a difficult question, but in one sense, uh, anything that’s detrimental to the Blacks would be detrimental to the whole country. Oloye Adeyemon: That was what I was wondering—that’s kind of what many people have said, and I was wondering— Frederick Dunn Jr.: It wouldn’t-it wouldn’t become apparent to us, non-thinkers like me. Oloye Adeyemon: Well, it wouldn’t be apparent also because people are not really—sometimes, when things are the way they are, and they’ve been that way, you sometimes don’t reflect on subtle things. Frederick Dunn Jr.: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: You don’t even analyze your own behavior, your own thoughts. Frederick Dunn Jr.: That-that’s true. Oloye Adeyemon: And I guess that question is something I-I-I—we can’t answer it, but it’s something that I’m wondering if is part of why these things that were legislated might not of had the full impact because people are not considering what the big picture might be that this a—or the potential. I won’t even say what it’s affecting, but the potential because, uh, sometimes when people are forced to do something, they don’t wanna do it just because it’s being forced. And sometimes, that can affect their reasoning. In South Carolina, for example, uh, many of the whites that we interviewed are beginning to speak about it for the first time. Our interview was the first time they’d ever spoken about it. And, in retrospect, they’re saying they destroyed their community in order to prevent Blacks from participating fully. They bulldozed the swimming pools so that no one had a swimming pool. They did not give credit and-and put sharecroppers off their land that were involved in the case. And they were making money from the sharecroppers. They were—you know, they were-they were getting interest on the credit, and it literally destroyed the whole community. And I-I guess—again, we-we can’t answer it. But I just wondered if—and you’ve answered it, Mr. Alexander, if any of you yourselves had, you know, reflected on that aspect of it. Because I think that, um, in some ways, uh, this is an American issue if it is, in fact, something that’s been, uh, a problem that Black people have faced, if in no other way. It may just be something that’s, um, a contradiction to maybe certain principles that America has, and if it’s allowed to exist, then maybe, you know, that would affect people in other ways. Because once you start rationalizing one thing, you rationalize another. And so that’s-that’s, um—as I said, that’s not—it-it was just wanting to know if, um, you reflected on that. But even though there have been, you know, problems in the process, I think that by us doing this collection and-and talking about these subjects that, you know, future generations may be able to answer some of the more difficult question and memories. Would each in here agree that, in that regard, uh, if nothing else, this particular story, uh, is a-is a challenge to the status quo? You know, would you agree with that, Mrs. Rothenburg? Natalie Rothenburg: Yeah. I think so [unintelligible 46:39]. Frederick Dunn Jr.: I still think that that’s-that’s—you hit the crux of the situation. In other words, you’re bringing a lot of things into this that should happen. You-you think that-that we’re going to— Oloye Adeyemon: Logically. Frederick Dunn Jr.: We’re—logically, we’re gonna do all this. But you’re forgetting— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - not you, but people forget you don’t get there that way. Oloye Adeyemon: How do you get there? Frederick Dunn Jr.: You get there that way by tending to exactly—for example, the school system, in order to do what you’re asking for, should be doing one thing: teaching people and letting them learn and come up. These other things that you’re bringing into it are going to come sometime, but the school, because they’re trying to be everything to everybody— Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - you don’t do a damn thing. Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: You lose out time and time again. If you’re gonna run a school, what you do is you work that. Every youngster’s entitled to an ethical teacher, period. And then you go on, and there—should get this, this—the learning and-and so on. And what happens after that is something else. You know, it’s like goin’ to church. You go to church; you get your message. But the minute the church starts goin’ down and says, “You gotta come and lead—you know, go fight this war,”— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Frederick Dunn Jr.: - that’s a different problem. Oloye Adeyemon: Well, thank you. On that note, we’ll close now. Frederick Dunn Jr.: You didn’t get it, though. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. We did. We have the audio [crosstalk 48:09]— Frederick Dunn Jr.: Oh, okay. Oloye Adeyemon: Yes. Thank you very much, all of you. Natalie Rothenburg: Well, was—was this a help to you or— Oloye Adeyemon: A big help. John Alexander: Would you [unintelligible 48:17]? [End of 2001-DC-01b.mp3] [End of Audio]

Description

All three are alumni of Central High School in Washington D.C.

They discuss shifting demographics due to white flight, cultural differences in Washington D.C. compared to other parts of the country when they traveled, and administrative difficulties in integration.

Date Created

08/15/2001

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