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Orvel Allen Bundy | Oral History
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Orvel Allen Bundy was interviewed on February 17, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: Where were you born?
OB: [I was] born in Mt. Trumbull, [Mohave County] Arizona [on] November 1, 1933.
MH: You remember the day? [Laughter]
OB: [Laughter] No, I don’t [remember] the day!
MH: Did you go to [the] Mt. Trumbull School?
OB: I went to the eighth grade there. I went down to Woodward [School] in St. George for part of the ninth grade. Then I got smarter than the teachers in that school!
MH: What was your father’s name?
OB: [My father was] Roy Bundy.
MH: How many brothers and sisters did you have?
OB: I had five brothers and six sisters. [Iven Leroy, Bessie, Helen, Elmo Aaron, Barbara, Clarence Ambrose, David Ammon, Leah, Newell Alma, Juanita and Madge Doretta Bundy]
MH: Was your father ranching [on the Arizona Strip] at that time?
OB: Yes, ranching and dry farming.
MH: Were you still dry farming there?
OB: Yes.
MH: Where did you go when you quit school? Did you go back to the [Arizona] Strip?
OB: I really saw no future [on] the [Arizona] Strip. It was during World War II and my brothers were all in the [United States] Army. I went back and helped at the ranch but I maybe felt that ─
MH: Then what happened?
OB: After I got out of school and the war was over, my brothers came home. My oldest brother [Iven Leroy] was working in Wyoming. He went to work up there for a dude ranch during the summer. [Inaudible] [Another] brother lived in Bunkerville [Nevada]. [After we] married, my wife [Sara “Sally” Berry (Hamilton) Bundy] got a teaching contract in Las Vegas [Nevada] and we lived there a year. I went to work for Rocky Mountain Produce Company [out of St. George, Utah]. I delivered produce in Las Vegas. I didn’t like that too [well]. Then [a] brother went to work for Vera Crupp. She had a big ranch on the other side of Las Vegas. I worked up there for about a year.
At that time, my dad [Roy Bundy] was getting up in years and couldn’t get around. Then he passed away. I really didn’t give [it] a thought that I might have a chance to buy [the] home ranch because I had two brothers [who] lived [on the Arizona Strip] and had [ranches]. But my sister [Madge Doretta Bundy], just older than me, called and said, “Mother [Doretta Marie (Iverson) Bundy] is concerned [about] what she should do with [the property at] Mt. Trumbull. Would you and Newell like to buy it?” [Laughter] I didn’t even ask him! I said, “You bet.” We went to a lawyer and made [up] an agreement [on] how much. Mother named the price she wanted and we had a contract. [Newell] was working [on] construction and he had a steady job. I didn’t [as] I was just [working] here and there. It was agreed that I [would] take care of the cattle. The people living out there knew that “Sally” was a [school teacher] so they [hired] her to teach school there. That was really a boost! The two of us moved out there and she taught school for two years, I believe.
In the meantime, my brother was going to be there and help me [work the ranch but] had other [situations that] got in his [way]. Finally, I said, “What am I going to do? I will either sell it or buy it. You are not holding your end up as far as I am concerned. Maybe you think you are. I will sell or buy whatever you want to do.” He said, “I am working and I can’t take the time off to go out and [work] at it.” I said, “Okay, I will buy it.”
MH: [So] you bought the ranch.
OB: Before that, we had bought a [small] [grazing] permit on Bunkerville Mountain. We had it [for] about a year. I think I figured [it was worth] about $3,000.00 or $4,000.00 plus sixty-seven head of cattle. [So] I traded him [and] ended up buying [the ranch]. I am quite proud of this because there were a few of my family saying [he] will never get it paid for. I paid everything on time and I felt [very] good about that.
MH: [Did] it take a little work to do it?
OB: It took a little work and a little bit of sacrifice but it was worth it.
MH: We [need] to back up a little bit. [Did] you go to Wyoming and were [you] a cowboy?
OB: [I was a cowboy] on a dude ranch.
MH: Where [was the] dude ranch?
OB: [It was] just out of Sheridan [Wyoming] up against the Big Horn Mountain.
MH: [How did you] convinced “Sally” to tie up with you? Is [this] where you met her?
OB: Doggone it, I don’t really mean to tell you everything! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] It must have been interesting for her to drive out to Mt. Trumbull!
OB: I was kind of a wallflower until I got up there. I met the nicest lady that I [would] ever want to meet and I fell in love with her the first thing.
MH: You came off well!
OB: She said, “I have to finish school. My dad told me I have to finish school before I can get married. Before we can get married you have to ask my parents.” I thought: that is a little different wrinkle, but I went back there over the Christmas holidays. I talked to her mother first. She said, “Yes, take her.” [Her dad] grandpa was a little different. He said, “I have quite a lot of money invested in her [education]. I would like her to finish school. She will be graduating with a teacher’s certificate and I would like her to use that.” I said, “Yes.” He doesn’t know how much that helped us to [have] that teaching certificate. It has taken both of us to get what we have, not that we have that much, but what we have we both [worked for] it.
MH: What [breed] of cattle were you running when you started out?
OB: I don’t remember; it was quite a long time ago. I don’t know why, but my dad sent clear to Kansas City and bought three old Hereford bulls. They shipped them out there. At that time, there were many different crosses, mainly Hereford, and Hereford and Durham. They were all crossed. He ran those Hereford bulls. At that time, probably Polled [Herefords] were not quite as good a cattle as horned Herefords but it pretty [much was] Hereford and Hereford cross. Now I have [Red] Salers cross. I still have Herefords. I bought nineteen head of Hereford heifers from [a ranch in] Parowan [Iron County, Utah] last year. They have more Hereford in them. I have Angus, Brangus, Brahmas cross and some Longhorn [cattle].
MH: You do have some Longhorn?
OB: I don’t like horned [cattle]. I like to see horns but I don’t like to handle horned [cattle].
MH: [They can be a] worry. What is your brand?
OB: Lazy S O. I bought that [brand] from Clyde McQuaid. I believe he bought it from somebody on the [Arizona] Strip.
MH: Are you running most of your cows north of Parashaunt?
OB: Yes, on my private property at Mt. Trumbull. I [also] have a joint allotment on top of the Hurricane Rim. In the wintertime I go into Whitmore [Canyon] right down next to the Colorado [River] on the other side of [the river].
MH: Do you remember any of the old timers like [Jonathon Deyo] “Slim” Waring, Bill Shanley, and that bunch, when you were growing-up?
OB: [Laughter] Let me tell you a little story. I don’t remember how old I was for sure, [maybe] about nine [years old]. [James] “Jim” King, Bill Shanley’s brother, had a place down at the rim about ten miles from [where I lived]. I don’t know how it happened but they had had a big three-year-old steer [that] came off the mountain. I know how it got there but I am not going to get into that detail! Here came “Jim” King. He was looking for him. Mother had fixed something to eat for somebody and he was [very] friendly. We were talking about [the steer]. He said, “I don’t know. I might have quite a lot of trouble taking that steer back up there. It is just one animal.” So my cousin and I volunteered to go with him.
At that time, there were very few fences. There was one fence between the bottom end of our allotment. It went into the Clayhole [Wash]. As [soon] as the first rain dropped, all the [John Henry] Schmutz and [Jack] Finley cattle from Tuweep and Mt. Trumbull came to the water. We [didn’t] have a big pond but a good pond [was] there on [inaudible] section there. You couldn’t depend on anything because [there would be] 200, 300 or 400 head of cattle [that would] come to [the] pond and then our cattle suffered. As quick as that happened, we started pushing those cattle down to that fence. When we took [the] steer down about four or five miles, here was Earl Pressley. He was an old bachelor at that time. We came down there driving that steer and, of course, we stopped down at “Jim” King’s place. He said, “Have dinner with me.” So we did.
There was a little dugout about eight or ten feet and, as I remember, [there] was kind of a round table that we [had] back in there. Pressley was a little bit of a man but he was talking.. I don’t know how the subject came up but he said, “Those dirty Schmutz son-of-a-guns pushed those cattle down here.” Johnny Pointer had a homestead down there and was in [World] War [II] at the time. He said, “Those dirty, rotten, son-of-a-guns pushed those cows down on that boy [who] is off fighting for him.” I said, “I [inaudible] know.” He hit me right in the ribs with [his] elbow and it knocked the wind clear out of me! I didn’t say anything more. After we [were] through eating he said, “Lordy, son, were you trying to get us both killed? That man [inaudible]. He would have shot us both.”
MH: [Laughter] You have to learn to be quiet once in awhile!
OB: [Laughter]
MH: Was Bill Shanley around then?
OB: Yes.
MH: Did he have a still?
OB: I don’t know that he had one there, but I imagine he did. He was known for that.
MH: Were you afraid of him as a boy?
OB: No, no. I have heard a lot of stories about Shanley, what a rotten, no good son-of- a-gun he was, but when he came to our place he was a gentleman. I will stand and tell anybody that. I have a book here someplace that old [Grant] Harris wrote about Shanley. I think Harris was trying to make a buck! He wasn’t telling the truth.
MH: Just about everybody knew Shanley and didn’t think he was that bad of a [fellow]. [Inaudible]
OB: I am sure when he got a little brew in him he probably turned out a lot different.
MH: In those days you didn’t have four-wheelers, [so] was everything done on a horse?
OB: Yes.
MH: How many horses did you have out there?
OB: I don’t know, probably not many. Dad always thought that he needed a work team. He [had] a big work horse and a stud horse. I don’t know what breed of horse [it] was. He had that out there [inaudible] mustang mares. We got a lot of good use out of some of them.
MH: Were there any Indians still out that way when you were growing-up?
OB: No.
MH: They were gone [by then]. Did you ever get down to the Colorado [River]?
OB: My winter [grazing] country is right where I can ride my horse with one foot hanging over the rim.
MH: Are you [running cattle] down there in the winter? About what time of the year do you bring them back?
OB: About the fifth of May.
MH: Do you remember when [the] Taylor Grazing [Act] came in? [June 28, 1934]
OB: No, not really, but right [about] that time, yes.
MH: That is when a lot of the fences [inaudible]. Was the store at Wolf Hole still going?
OB: Yes. I can remember that. I remember going to town on the mail [truck]. The mail came through there. I don’t remember the detail. It must have been in the spring. We stopped at Wolf Hole [and] it seems to me like we had dinner there. It was kind of a blustery day and somebody said, “It looks like it is going to storm.” Mother said, “Yes, as the wind blows.” [Laughter] I [also] remember [riding in] the mail [truck when] I was a little feller. Mrs. Kenworthy [who] lived at Little Tank was a fine lady but she talked awful loud to her boy! I remember they sent some fresh peas out [to her] with the mail. She cooked them up and we had dinner with her. We came in the house and I was a little bit backward and it seemed like she was extra loud. I said, “I would like to have some peas.” She said, “If you need to run outside, sonny, go out around back.” [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] What was the road like in those days? Was it a little rough getting down [into] Quail Canyon?
OB: No. The CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] had been in Quail Canyon and overhauled [the road]. As I remember, it wasn’t too steep.
MH: What were the winters like? Were there a lot of times when you couldn’t get out?
OB: I remember vaguely [the winter of] 1936 and 1937. To the west of our house, it wasn’t two 200 feet where we had the wood pile. I remember packing wood to the house and [the] snow drifts were way over my head. All [we had] was a trail out there.
MH: Could you get down to St. George?
OB: No, we didn’t. We were prepared for those things. We didn’t eat big, but we ate! When we moved out there in 1958 [or] 1959 a [fairly] big snow [storm] hit. We were snowed in out there [for] about two weeks. They brought a caterpillar [grader] out and pushed the road open. When my wife couldn’t drive she [would] walk to school down that long mile.
MH: That is a long mile.
OB: I remember a Christmas program that she [put on]. I had a Ford tractor and I [cleared] the road and did the best I could with it. We went down to the school.
MH: Who was the best cowboy out there [that] you ever [knew]?
OB: You have to define a cowboy.
MH: The best [cowboy] to work cattle from a horse.
OB: I had a couple of brothers. [Elmor] “Frosty” Bundy could probably take care of things about as [well] as anybody I knew.
MH: What was the worst thing that ever happened to you out there?
OB: [Laughter] You have to define worst thing!
MH: [Laughter] Oh, I don’t know, medical emergency, whatever.
OB: You are digging into my private life!
MH: Oh [inaudible].
OB: But I will tell you there is a Supreme Being that looks after dumb cowboys. [While] we [were] living out there, I was gone when my wife had two attacks of appendicitis. But we didn’t know that [it was appendicitis]. When I came back, she had terrible pains. One night she woke me up and she said, “I am really having bad pains in my side.” She was teaching school at the time. She said, “I don’t know what we should do. What do you think?” I got up and I knelt at the bed [emotional] and I asked what I should do. We had a bedroom with a north window and after I [prayed] for information, I looked up and there was a falling star. [Emotional] I said, “We are going to town.” I [put] her in the station wagon and we came to town. We barely got in there. Her appendix had broken. They took it out [inaudible].
MH: Apparently you did the right thing, Orvel. [Inaudible]
OB: Yes, [laughter] there is no doubt in my mind.
MH: [It was] a long way out there. You didn’t have a hospital around the corner. What is the happiest time you ever had out there?
OB: I don’t know. You can define happiness in a lot of different ways. I can tell you another story and it evolves around my immediate family. When the summer rains came and brought water out, that was a happy time. It didn’t matter when. If it [had] rained [there would be] flood water out [in] some places [and] we [would] go to [look]. It was [a] Saturday afternoon and we went to the mountain to see where it had rained. We made a circle coming home and I came across a little flat where the water had puddled. We bogged down and it was evening. I shoveled and shoveled and shoveled and I wasn’t getting [anywhere]. We had the two boys, Bill, Clay, Margie and Barry. [Barry] was the baby. We had one sleeping bag behind the seat and some clothes. [My wife] put the three [children] in the sleeping bag in the back and she cuddled up with Barry in the front [of the wagon]. I walked off the mountain about five miles, got the tractor and came back and got us out. We got to [The] Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] on time!
MH: [Laughter] You made it back! I bet that was a lonely walk.
OB: It was, but it was necessary.
MH: Who were your closest neighbors?
OB: They were a mile away.
MH: Who was that?
OB: Ben Bundy.
MH: Yes, that is a long walk to [the] schoolhouse.
OB: But I walked it quite a lot of times.
MH: When did you move into St. George?
OB: [Laughter] I don’t remember. Bill was in the [inaudible]
MH: I heard a story. You had a place out there and [your] boys decided it wasn’t quite up to snuff and they built you a new one. Is that right?
OB: That is right. I said to [a] carpenter I needed a house overhauled. He said, “No, but I will build you a new one.” Before my mother died she said, “If you decide you want to do something to the house go ahead. It doesn’t matter.” A lot of my brothers and sisters said, “You can’t do away with that house.” I said, “Yes, I can. It belongs to me.” So that is what I did.
MH: You have a new [house] now. [Do] you spend three or four days a week out on the ranch [inaudible]? [Are] most of your boys following in your footsteps?
OB: I hope so. After we bought the place [my] dad was in bad shape. I heard him say quite a number of times, “Don’t ever sell it. We might want to live there.” I wouldn’t change anything. I told my boys they would probably have to take care of me and [their] mother. As long as we [are] alive, they were to take care of it and they weren’t to sell the place.
MH: I have two questions I always ask. The first one is, what is it about Mt. Trumbull, [inaudible], the Arizona Strip that you [folks] don’t want to let go? Everybody I talk to, [they] all say the Arizona Strip is a very special place. Why is that?
OB: I don’t know. I guess if you would read [the] book you [would] probably come close to knowing.
MH: [Inaudible]
OB: We came in there in 1916 and nothing was easy. But it was what we wanted, what we like to do and that is still what it is. It is what I like to do. It is not the money I make, it is the kind of life that I live.
MH: That is a good answer. The next [question] you get a chance to come back. Given the fact that they made [the Grand Canyon-]Parashaunt [a National] Monument, how would you like to see it managed and administered?
OB: Let me say first, I have no respect for President [William Jefferson] Clinton [or] [Secretary of the Interior] Bruce [Edward] Babbitt. I think they are dirty dogs, dirty, dirty dogs.
MH: For making [the area] a monument?
OB: For making [the area] a monument. Let me go a little bit further here. A number of years ago there was quite a lot of bicycling from the schoolhouse up there. They [would] turn and come down through my allotment. [One time] I came up the mountain [and] followed them clear on down to the north end and [there] was a camp. It [belonged to] a daughter of the Babbitt brother’s cattle company [Babbitt Brothers Trading Company] [inaudible]. The foreman was there. He was helping [the] daughter [who] came along to cook. I inquired a little bit and he said, “Well, “Brucie boy” was not out of the same stock as the other Babbitt boys [Paul and James]. His mother [Frances Babbitt] left the old man [Paul J. Babbitt] and went to San Francisco [California]. When “Brucie” grew up, he came back and wanted his inheritance [but] the others didn’t want him there. They ran him for Governor [of Arizona].”
MH: [Inaudible] politician.
OB: “He still wanted to come back so they ran him again. He [was] Secretary [of the Interior] and they didn’t want anything to do with him. So he came back.” This is me talking now — what damage can I do to them? He made this cotton-picker [area] into a monument.
MH: That is a good story!
OB: I believe if you follow it, it is [fairly] well right, too.
MH: [Laughter] Orvel, this has been a great interview! I really appreciate [it].
[END OF TAPE]
Description
Orvel Allen Bundy was interviewed on February 17, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. He related his experiences ranching on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Credit
NPS
Date Created
02/17/2005
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