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Oral History Project - Parker, Ray 1980
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These interviews are presented here in their original form, unmodified, in an effort to preserve and share the history of our park and its surrounding area. The memories, comments, and viewpoints shared by interviewees in the materials of the New River Gorge Oral History Project and related documents do not represent the viewpoints of the National Park Service.
Interview NRGNPP 023
File NRGNPP 023-T
TAPE TWENTY-THREE
Interviewer:
Paul J . Nyden
Beckley, W. Va. 25801
November 22, 1980
PN: To begin with Mr. Parker, maybe to start, you could mention when you were born and where you were born.
RP: Well, I was born down here at Hemlock, right down at the foot of the hill here, used to be the post office Catherine up till that time, that was. And we moved out here to Landisburg, well they call it, about nineteen and I don't know, about nine or ten or somewhere along there. And then my dad, he started working for the Babcock Coal - it was Lumber Company at that time. And he, he worked on bridge work, keeping up the railroad bridges. And they would bring, well the company, when they moved in here, of course they brought in different branches of service, you know. They brought in a bunch of people. They hooked a whole lot of Swedes; and they was the ones done all the railroad work, grade work, you know, laid the track. And then the different parts of the territory, where the lumber, where the timber is. And they'd cut, and then they had timber cutters. And they'd cut the timber. And they'd haul it into the, into the mill with, you know they had different types of engines. They had one type of engine, they had a Shay engine.
PN: Shay?
RP: Yea, Shay. One was a, then they had some Climax engines. And they worked like that you know; them Shays worked more 1 Ike on a railroad, on the C. and O. track. And they brought this lumber in then. And Mr. George Bean, he was the general manager of the Babcock Lumber Company. And I think they, they was in solid there for 20 years, I believe it was, something ]about] around 20 years. Then they had different, and then they [a brief interruption from someone coming into Mr. Parker's shop to ask for a key].
PN: Did you mention the year that you were born yourself?
RP: No. I was born December the first, nineteen and seven, that's my date.
PN: And you were born down in Hemlock?
RP: At Hemlock, uh huh.
PN: When did you actually begin working yourself for the lumber company?
RP: Oh when I was about 17 or 18 years old.
PN: And were you living in Landisburg at that time?
RP: Well, we was a 'Iiving in a, on a little farm up here above Landisburg,about two miles from Landisburg. We always walked to Landisburg to work.
PN: And you worked in the saw mill, or you worked in the logging camp?
RP: Well I worked, I worked where they pulled the lumber off of the chains, you know. They have a, the lumber come on out on chains and different, then they had a lumber grader, you know. And he'd grade different lengths. And then as it goes down this long chain — well, it would be, I'd say, as far as from across the road maybe [about 50 or 60 feet], the chains would extend, you know. And they'd have wagons placed in. And then certain grades of lumber, you'd put on this wagon. And then the next fellow down there, he'd get the other kind of a grade. And on down plumb to the end, would be most of the culls and things go over the end. And then they had, they had docks built, and they, some of these docks was built and they were about 12 to 15 foot above the ground, you know, so they could run these, put these lumber stacks up. And then they would, they had stackers, people that do the stacking. Then after the lumber was on sticks, I believe, something like 60 days or something like that, they would, they'd, they would ship it to different, whoever the buyers was.
PN: Where would they ship it to mostly?
RP: Seems to me like Mr. Proctor, he was a, he was the ship, he was the salesman, seemed like a lot of it went to Cincinnati, through that direction. And then they had…
PN: What was the exact name of the company? Was it Babcock Coal and Lumber Company?
RP: Back at that time, it was Babcock Lumber Company. Then they got, and then later on, they went into the coal business there at Cliff top. And then they went into, then they called them Babcock Coal Company. This was one of their stores over here; well, it's got the name on it.
PN: Right across the street?
RP: Uh huh. Well you see, they had, they had a company store there at Landisburg. And then after, then they had a company store there at Sewell too. So that's where they shipped the lumber to Sewell. And they had a, they had a company store down there. And then, then they a, and of course back at that time too, they shipped some coal. In later years, they shipped some coal from Cliff top down there. And they had, they had coke ovens; they had about 180 or 190 coke ovens.
PN: The Babcock Coal and Coke owned them?
RP: Uh huh.
PN: When did they actually begin their lumber business, do you know?
RP: It was right after 1900.
PN: And when did they start the coal?
RP: I don't know exactly when they did really start the coal.
PN: That was later?
RP: Yea, it was later. And then of course, they run coal and lumber both there for a good while.
PN: How did your father happen to begin working for them?
RP: Well, we just, we was getting close to it, you know. And that's the closest company that worked, back at that time you didn't, of course my dad was a coal miner at that time. And he, we moved up there on that farm. And he just went to working for the Babcock people then.
PN: As a lumber worker or a saw mill…
RP: He worked on, he worked on the bridge crew, keeping up the. You see, when you come to a place like a creek or something, you'd have to put a bridge across it. They'd have to bridge it. So he worked in that crew there. And Lester Kincaid, he was a foreman over the bridge crew. And then, then we had timber foremens. And I think Arch Heffner, I believe he was, used to be, he used to be the woods foreman. And Ed Jones, Edward Jones, he was the, he was the foreman for the, on the lumber yard. And he, they had five lumber graders; and Mark Casto was one, and Hubie Casto was one, and Otho Casto was one, and then they had a fellow by the name of Evans — he graded lumber there. But they had different. And then George Kirk used to — a place up there on Big Sewell, he used to live up there — and he graded the lumber that come off of the chains, you know, out on the, when it goes to the stack. He first, he's the first to put the mark, he's one of the first ones to put the mark on it.
PN: What, the lumber yard was in Landisburg, and then the, is that right?
RP: Huh?
PN: The lumber yard was in Landisburg?
RP: Yea.
PN: And then the lumber, after it was weathered, or…
RP: See, it was all stacked, you know, right there.
PN: And it was shipped down to Sewell then?
RP: And then, you see, they'd have a big dock going this way. And then they'd have a railroad, they'd have a track run up there where they could put their cars, you know, and load their car, on these, just, we called them, I don't know, we just called them lumber cars, you know. And then they'd, then they'd, their train, that engine, they'd take it on into Sewell then. And then they'd get, they'd get orders about 10,000, 11,000, 12,000 feet orders, you know. And they would ship em out different parts. A lot of them, I don't just where all the lumber did go to. Then they had a planning mill there too. They'd, they would, they'd plane a lot of the rough stuff, you know, for sheeting and stuff like that, you know. And they shipped a lot of plane lumber, and framing lumber; and they had a lot of, they cut all kinds, whatever they'd make. Back at that time, they made a lot of lathes, like you use to put plaster up. And they sold a lot of lathes then.
PN: Where did most of the people that worked for the lumber company there come from?
RP: Just, just around in the vicinity.
PN: Were most of them farmers before that?
RP: Well a lot of them was; and then there's a lot of them, a lot of people. They had some colored people there; they brought them in out of North Carolina.
PN: Really?
RP: Uh huh. They come in from North Carolina; then they worked there .
PN: How did they do that? How did they bring them in?
RP: Well they, they'd maybe hire 'em, and just pay their transportation in. Or maybe some of them come up there and get a job. And then they'd send back for his brother or his friend or something. And they'd come and get, get work, you know. Then they had, they had several working, colored people working there.
PN: Where did they work mostly? Did they work in the woods, or in the saw mill?
RP: They worked mostly in the, in, on the yard, you know, where, stacking lumber. And then they had, they had loading crews too, you know, where they loaded to ship it, you know.
PN: How many employees, total, would you say the company had?
RP: I don't know, I 'd say it would be up around 150 or 175. Maybe more people counting the, counting the whole, everything.
PN: That's the lumber operations?
RP: The whole operation.
PN: Of that number, how many do you think were white and how many of them were Black? Do you have any estimate?
RP: Well, there wasn't too many. There wasn't over 12, 15 Black I don't think, something like that.
PN: You mentioned before, you said that there were a lot of Swedes working?
RP: Well, they was, yea they was, they brought, I don't know where they come, where they picked them, how they come. But they, they done mostly contract work, you know. They'd contract that work. And they had, they had what you called shanty cars, you know.
PN: They would live in them?
RP: And they lived, they lived together, you know.
PN: Where did they come from, do you have any idea?
RP: I wouldn’t have any idea where they come from. I guess, I guess eventually they come from Sweden. [laughs] But they, they just, well you see back at that time then, you see, they had a big lumber mill going at Rainelle too, you see, at that time.
PN: Babcock?
RP: No, not Babcock. That was a, that was a Raine Lumber Company. And the Wilderness Lumber Company was at Nallen; they had a big lumber company.
PN: Where?
RP: Nallen.
PN: Nallen?
RP: Yea, just about eight or ten miles from here. No it's more than that, 15 miles maybe down here. It's on, it's on, going towards; it's on Route 19, or 41 really now, going towards Summersville, Between Summersville and here. They had a big band mill, and they used to have a big band mill there at Swiss [near Gauley Bridge, in Nicholas County]. Along in there, there used to be several band mills going back in them, at that particular time.
PN: What does a “band mill" mean specifically? Is that the major type of saw that they used?
RP: Yea. Now a band saw and a circle saw are different. Probably you, 1 don't know whether you've ever seen a band mill, saw, or not. Now it, this mill was operated by what you call a 14—foot, 14—foot circle saw. It's a great big round, you know. And it goes over a big drum at the top and a big drum at the bottom. It's tightened up, and them drums runs just like that thing there is going [pointing to the reel—to—reel tape recorder]. Only it'd be going, a terrific [speed]. And it would stand just like that, and that log would hit that saw just like that.
PN: That's a circle saw?
RP: That's a band saw.
PN: That's a band saw.
RP: Mm. Now a band saw, they could saw a much bigger log than a circle saw could.
PN: Why's that?
RP: Well, it'd have more of a base, you know. You take a saw that 'd go way up there like, that'd be like running a log along that wall there, and that saw, and that whole thing's a saw there.
PN: So that could be like six or seven or eight feet tall? You could put a log that big through?
RP: Yea, six feet anyhow. Yea, six or seven foot, I’d say, that a band saw'll cut.
PN: A circle saw would just be a big piece of metal?
RP: Yea, it's just up around like that, and it will just a ‘reach up here, you see. But now a log would have to be big enough, it just wouldn't go through there. A band saw wouldn't cut it. Why they cut, back there at that time, they used to cut, I've seen them red oak, six—quarter red oak. You know what a six—quarter is? That's an inch—and—a—half board, about that thick, as wide as one of these sheet—rock panels [about six feet wide]. Them boards would come out on the chain that way, just so big like that, we'd have to, we'd have to, we'd have strips to nail across the end of them. As a general rule, two of us would pull that board off and put it on the wagon. And most, a lot of times, just the way that board, you pull it up, you'd split it break it right in the middle. And they'd nail them strips across the end, keep it, keep it from split— ting, until they got it stacked, you know. And after you got it stacked and dried, it was, it was mostly cured then.
PN: How many years did you work in the saw mill, or in that industry?
RP: Off and on, I guess, eight or ten years. Then after I left there, up till, see, they sawed out in '29. I believe it was '29. It could be ' 28, but I'll say ' 29 . On January the 29th, it seemed to me like it was.What would that mean, that they worked the woods out?
RP: Yea, they worked it out. In the meantime, the m ill burnt at one time, and then they rebuilt it. And then, then after they sawed it out, they moved, they moved the mill then you've heard of Glade, ain't you?
PN: Up on New River?
RP : Yea, yea. Now that's where they, that's where they had their last mill.
PN : Was that Babcock Lumber down there in Glade too?
RP : Mm. See that was their last mill here. But now Babcock people had more than one mill. They had, they had mills in Tennessee too. They had mills in West Virginia, maybe in North Carolina, don't know. But anyway, they had, they had several mills. And here a while back, there was a whole truckload of plywood, I noticed the Babcock people, comes from up here at Sutton. And they got a warehouse up there, Babcock people have. And they, and they distribute it, plywood and stuff, into Beckley. And I seen a truck go by here one time, and said Babcock on the truck, and he stopped out there. And I went out there, and I cornered him, and I got talking about it. And he said, yea, they had a, they had a warehouse up there where they shipped, they still, they still handle lumber a little bit.
PN: What did you do after the, you know, it sawed out? What did you do then?
RP: Well, after it sawed out, then, I suspect then, it was a year, or a year and a half or more before they got all the lumber shipped out, You see, it went right on, the lumber sales, till they got all the lumbers shipped out. And that was it; that was all of it then.
PN: What did you do then? Did you stay around there?
RP: I stayed around there a while. And then I went, after that then I went and got me a job at Cliff top working in the mines over there then.
PN: You did?
RP: Yea.
PN: For the same company?
RP: Yea, for the same company. And then…
PN: When did you start working for them?
RP: '33, 1933, yea.
PN: How long did you work in the mines for them?
RP: I worked till '39. I worked, then I come down here at Greenwood Coal. I got a job down there for, at Lawton at Greenwood.
PN: When did you work in Greenwood?
RP: When I was a'working?
PN: Yea.
RP: I worked there then until 1951.
PN: From about '39 to 51?
RP: Huh?
PN: From 1939 to 1951?
RP: From '42, ‘42 to '52, one.
PN: Let me just ask you a couple of questions about unions, if you have any memories of that. When you worked, when you and your father worked for Babcock Lumber, was there any union of any kind that represented the men?
RP: Well, they, not when we first started there wasn't, no union at all. But they was, they was always trying to organize. I think along about '37 or eight; 36, seven, or eight or somewhere along in there, they, they got unionized then.
PN: In where, their lumber operations?
RP: No, the lumber, there wasn't, there was just a coal operation. Lumber, there wasn't no lumber operation then.
PN: Was there ever any union for the lumber workers?
RP: No, un huh, there was never no union back up until the mill sawed out, there wasn't no unions then. It wasn't, about the only unions was back years ago when, in the twenties, when John L. Lewis organized. And then they busted up then for a long time. And then they…
PN: Did anybody ever talk about trying to get a union in the sawmill or the woods?
RP: No, not back at that time, they didn't. Unions wasn't thought of.
They just wasn't thought of.
PN: When you started working at Cliff top in the mines, had the United Mine Workers come back in there by that time?
RP: They hadn't got in when I first started. But they got, they got a, they was, I guess probably that maybe they, some of them was unionizing back at that time. I don't know just when, when the United Mine Workers did really get, get up, started back then organizing.
PN: Do you have any memories of that period when you were working in the coal mine? When they started to organize again, do you have any memories of that?
RP: No, no.
PN: What did you do when you worked in the mines?
RP: I loaded coal, just, just, it was machine cut, you know. And then you'd go in and shoot it down. And then you'd, you'd put your cars up there, and you load, and they pull them.
PN: When you were saying that Babcock had mines at Cliff top, did they, how did they get the coal down to the gorge? Did they ship it out of the gorge?
RP: They shipped their, they had coal cars, they shipped it down, down the same, same track that they did the lumber.
PN: They did?
RP: Uh huh. Only it, from Cliff top, it come in right below the Babcock State Park. It tied in with the track that comes up to Landisburg then, then when you come up there you switch off, and come to Cliff top, or you come on up to Landisburg.
PN: That was the same track then?
RP: Yes, uh huh, same track.
PN: And so they shipped it out of Sewell then?
RP: Yea, they shipped…
PN: Did they make it into coke before they shipped it?
RP: Well a lot of it, they made it in coke, and a lot of it they didn't. They shipped a lot of it straight, and a lot of it in coke. They had coke orders, and they had coal orders.
PN: When you were talking about this train that went from Landisburg down to Sewell, or from Cliff top to Sewell, how wide was the track compared to the track today? Or to a regular track back then, like on the C. and O. mainline?
RP: I don't know just what, I don't even know what the standard size of track is. Anyway, it was narrower. I mean. maybe that much [indicating between six and eight inches with his hands] narrower than the C. and O. track. Cause I know after you got down to Sewell, you know, they laid a lot of track, extra rail up along beside of the, the C. and O. track where they could shift their cars in and out.
PN: Oh really?
RP: Uh huh. There at Sewell.
PN: Down there in the yards?
RP: Yea, down in the yard.
PN: What, would that little train then would take the coal and lumber all the way down to the New River?
RP: Take it plumb to the New River, yea. Then they'd go down, went on down top, top of the hill there, and then what they called "backswitch" it. They'd bring it down way out that way, and then they'd bring it back down. They had to backswitch it down in there to Sewell.
PN: What does that mean?
RP: Well, just like trying to get off of this mountain up here — you couldn't come straight over. But you just go, you'd go out this way so far, and then you go down this way so far, just keep backswitching, you know.
PN: So you wouldn't go like that [indicating straight up a hill], but…
RP: Uh huh.
PN: You said that when you worked, when you were working for the lumber company that you lived in Landisburg?
RP: No, I didn't live in Landisburg. I lived up there…wasn't really no name to it. Just, Landisburg was our post office. And then after, then just after I moved up here, it's like Danese is my post office.
PN: The town of Landisburg, most of the people that lived there were con— nec ted with Babcock Lumber?
RP : Oh, they had a town there. They had, they had, they had houses .
PN: That's at Landisburg, right?
RP: Uh huh, yea, they, a lot of people that lived there. There was a lot of people lived in Landisburg.
PN: How many people lived there? Do you have any idea?
RP: I don't have any idea just exactly how many.
PN: Do you know how many houses were there then?
RP: Yea, there was houses then, but…
PN: About how many, do you have any idea?
RP: I don't know. I never did stop to just really count how many would be.
PN: Were there be as many as 50 or 100?
RP: I expect there would - 50, yea, I’d say 50 houses.
PN: What else was there there? Was there schools, churches?
RP: Yea, we had a, we had a three—room school at Landisburg. And then they had a, they had a big building there, they had a building for a theater and they'd have picture shows in it. And then that's where we had, they had church in there too, and Sunday School. They had it all in one.
PN: In the same building?
RP: Mm.
PN: They'd show movies there, and they'd have church in the same…
RP: Yea, uh huh. Yea, they had a projector booth back there and then, it was really a, it was really the mov, opera house, or what do you call it? Of course, they didn’ t, they'd, we'd have, they'd show, they'd show a picture on Saturday night and then one on Thursday. About two nights a week, you know, they had a picture show. It was all silent, and kids went crazy over it [laughs]. We couldn't wait till Saturday night come, or Thursday.
PN: What denomination of a church was it?
RP: I don't know; it might have been Presbyterian, or Baptist.
PN: Was there a full—time minister there?
RP: No.
PN: Did you have preachers come in and out, or how did that work?
PN: I don't know whether, they really didn't have too many, much preaching there, but mostly just Sunday School for the people, for the kids to go to Sunday School.
PN: Who would run the Sunday School, the different adults?
RP: Yea, I don't, I don't know, I don't remember now who all was the teachers and all, then. George M. Woodyard, he was, he was our main bookkeeper there at Cliff top, [correcting himself] at Landisburg.
PN: You said they had a company store there?
RP: Yea, they had a company store.
PN: What could you buy at the company store?
RP: Anything you wanted to buy John Ritchie clothes, they sold Stetson hats, Bostonian shoes. They had Kipling, Brotherhood overalls, Torchlight and I don't know what different brands.
PN: How did you buy stuff? Did you use scrip?
RP: Yea, we had a, we had a scrip. In other words, you could draw, go to the office there, and you, you had a card. They'd mark down, you said, "Give me two dollars worth of scrip, and they'd put it on that card and they'd give you a couple metal dollars or something”, how big it was, something like that.
PN: So they had paper scrip and metal scrip both?
RP: I don't know just how that scrip was. We never did, we never did fool much with the scrip.
PN: Did you get paid in regular money?
RP: Yea, mostly.
PN: You did?
RP: And then a lot of time, I can remember, they might have just put it on the card and showed you how much you, much you drawed.
PN: And they took it out of your wages?
RP: Uh huh, yea.
PN: Was it hard, if you wanted to buy something like a chair or a bed or something, could you pay for that over a period of months?
RP: Oh yea, oh yea, we could pay it, we'd pay it any way you wanted to. They'd pay so much a month right to the office. Back up at that time, you take these clothing companies that come in there tailor—made suits and all. And they'd [measure] you up, and you'd buy a suit, and then pay for it over the payroll. Of course they did that around coal companies too.
PN: Tailors would come in from the outside and
RP: Yea, uh huh.
PN: Then you'd order it. What did you do for entertainment besides going to movies back then?
RP: There wasn't any. There wasn't no entertainment then.
PN: Did many people raise gardens?
RP: Yea, a lot of them raised gardens. They had gardens; a lot of them, most, a lot of people raised gardens. And then, in back there they put practically, practically everybody had a automobile. Of course we had a, it was all dirt roads back there then.
PN: I was going to ask you about that. If people wanted to get in and out of town, how they would do it.
RP: They had a road right into town.
PN: And people would drive?
RP : Uh huh, uh huh.
PN: Where did that road go to? Was it [Route] 41?
RP : It goes out here to 41; and there's a road, I can't tell you exactly what, if you 're not familiar with the people that live there. Doc Hubert, he used to, he built a big house right there out there on 41 on the right, as you go out there. Now right there, right there is where you turn right straight over the hill into Landisburg.
PN : Then you could drive out to the main road and go to Route 60?
RP: Oh yea, uh huh, yea.
PN: Could you drive down to Quinnimont or Prince then?
RP: Not back at that time, you couldn't, cause you didn't have no road down there at Quinnimont. They didn't put that road down to Quinnimont till up in the thirties.
PN: How far could you drive then, down here to Lay land?
RP: Yea, you'd come to Lay land.
PN: Then up to Route 60? Was that in back then?
RP: Yea, it went up to Route 60, and then that there took you, then if you wanted to go to, back there then if you wanted to go to Beckley, you had to go to Route 60, and drive to Gauley Bridge, and cross the river at Cotton Hill. Go over Cotton Hill Mountain, and then through Fayetteville, plumb into, into Beckley.
PN: Must have taken quite a while.
RP: And then, then later on, then they built that, put a bridge across there — what they call Chimney Corner there, you know, goes down in there. And that's the way we used to go to Beckley that way. After first starting off, you had to go plumb to Gauley Bridge. And fact about it, you didn't, you didn't cross a bridge at Gauley, at Gauley Bridge. You crossed a ferry. And it almost took you a couple of days to go to Beckley and back. [laughs]
PN: How many hours would it take, if you went straight from Landisburg to Beckley without stopping? How many hours would that take you?
RP: Back there then? 1 don't know; I never did drive it from the Gauley Bridge. 1 did, I drove it from Chimney Corner there. Oh, a couple hours or so, something like that. The first car we got, we got it, a '27 model Studebaker.
PN: What year did you get that? Did you get it in 27?
RP: Mm. No, ' 23. No we got it in 23, that's when it was — a '23 model Studebaker.
PN: Was Route 41 a dirt road then? Or was that paved?
RP: Yea.
PN: It was dirt?
RP: Mm.
PN: How about 60, was that dirt?
RP: It was dirt too. And then, I don't know exactly when they got that hard—top to It. Cause I remember, It used to be, you could go to Rainelle. You'd go down, you'd go in here to Meadow Bridge, and go up to it, Sewell Valley that way. That was all dirt road in there then. And I can remember too when it was dirt road up Rainelle Mountain.
PN: Let me ask you something about the Babcocks. Do you know, do you know where they came from?
RP: Pennsylvania.
PN: They did?
RP: Pittsburgh.
PN: How did they make their money originally? Here, or did they have money when they came in here?
RP: Oh they was, they had money to start with. Old man E. V. Babcock used to the owner of the mill down there — he used to be mayor of Pittsburgh.
PN: E. V. Babcock?
RP: E. V. Babcock.
PN: Really?
RP: Mm.
PN: What was he involved in there, do you have any Idea?
RP: Lumber, lumber, lumber. He had lumber up there. And in, he got two sons; I can't think, one of them was. And one thing about it, in the summertime, he'd send them old boys of his down here, and they worked on the lumber yard just like 1 did.
PN: Babcock's sons?
RP: Yea, yea they worked on the lumber, they worked in the summer down here.
PN: He lived in Pittsburgh even when he owned all this stuff down here?
RP: Yea, mm, yea, he lived in Pittsburgh.
PN: Let me ask you a couple of things about your parents that I didn't ask you. Do you know where your father was born, and when he was born?
RP: No sir, I don't know. My father, I've heard the place I thought he was borned at, but my, my grandfather, I never did know what become of him. He joined, he was in the Civil War. He must have got killed or something, and we never did know what become of him.
PN: Your grandfather?
RP: Mm.
PN: Did he live in Rest Virginia, come from West Virginia?
RP: Yea, he was from West, I reckon, from West Virginia someplace. I never, maybe, I don't know exactly where they originated from.
PN: What side did he fight for in the war? In the Civil War.
RP: Well, he was a Yankee, I reckon. That's what he was.
Most people would have been, wouldn't they? From here, they would have fought on the side of the Union?
RP: Yea.
PN: Do you know where your mother's parents came from, or where they were born?
RP: Yea, they was borned over here, right over on that farm, part before we lived on. We bought a piece of ground off of my mother's property. And Newman Kincaid, I don' t know when they…
PN: That was your mother's father's name?
RP: That s my mother's father's name, yea — Newman Kincaid. And then…
PN: Was he a farmer?
RP: Yea, they was all farmers back then. And take the Andersons, and the Rincaids, and the Fleshmans and they just about made up this country at one time.
PN: What kind of farming did they do?
RP: Just raised corn, and potatoes, and kept a few cattle, and that 's about all.
PN: Did they sell most of their…?
RP : Yea, they'd sell, they'd sell their cattle. They'd raise cattle and sell it. Then they'd raise corn, then they 'd, then, then they 'd, they called them "peddling" they'd take their farm, a lot of the farm stuff, they'd like to take it into Landisburg and sell it to people cabbage and tomatoes and corn. And that's about the way they, they, the biggest, back, on further back, they took most of their stuff in, into Sewell . S ewe11 at one time was a big, was a big place once. See, on the New River. It was, right on the top of the mountain there at Sewell, there was, I expect there was a town.
PN: On top of the mountain at Sewell?
RP: Mm. And then they tore them, after they went out, the town went out down there, they tore a lot of them old houses down at Sewell and moved them to Cliff top and built them.
PN: What did they do — they took the lumber and hauled it off?
RP: Uh huh.
PN: When was that? Do you know what year that was?
RP: No. That was a long ways back, before 1900 [he is referring to the original construction of Sewell], back, take Landisburg at one, Clifftop [correcting himself] at one time, let's see, whose is it? Belonged to the Longdale Iron Company. They was the one that attempted to put that rail — then road down to Sewell. And I think they went bankrupt on it, and the Babcocks there come in and took it over then and finished it up.
PN: How many people lived at Sewell back then?
RP: About 500 at one time.
PN: That includes both the town on the gorge and on the top?
RP: The top too, yea.
PN: So your mother's family's people would bring vegetables and things that they had grown and go down to Sewell and sell them?
RP: Yea. Well my grandpa and all didn't do too much of that, cause they sold most of theirs a 'right around Landisburg. And then, then they'd, then Layland was in operation back at that time. Then they sold their stuff at Landisburg and Layland. Course there was a lot of people that lived at Layland at that time. There wasn't no trouble to sell your stuff, to peddle it out down there.
PN: You mentioned the Longdale Iron Company. What did they do, did they…
RP: I don't know just what they were all about. It was a company, but they seem to me like they still have an operation, over there about Lowmoor, ain't they, somewhere over there next to Virginia. [Lowmoor is in Alleghany County, west of Clifton Forge and Longdale Furnace.]
PN: Longmore?
RP: Over in there towards Lowmoor.
PN: Low more?
RP: Ain't that the Longdale Iron Company over in there?
PN: It could be.
RP: Seems like it is.
PN: What did they do here though? Did they just have the railroad? Did they try to…
RP: I don't know what they was, whether they was trying to develop the, develop the lumber, or the mines, or what it was. It might have been mines, I don't know.
PN: Just getting back to what you were doing yourself, when you left the mines in 51, is that when you became a barber?
RP: Oh, I done barber work before that. I did that on the side. [laughs]
PN: You did?
RP: Yea, and then after I quit, I just, I just kept this as a sideline then.
[He has worked full—time as a barber since 51.]
PN: What did you do, you would just go to people's houses and cut hair?
RP: No, I, there at Cliff top, when I stayed over there, I had me a little shop there in one room of my house. And then, then when I went to Greenwood, I went down there first, just took a barber shop over. I, I quit the mines and just went down and took a barber shop over and just, just worked with the barber work. And then before the Two War broke out, and then, then they needed men, so I started to work then for the miners. And then I worked, I guess six years for them.
PN: What, did you work…?
RP: Nine years, I worked nine years down there. I worked inside and out.
PN: Did you still hold your barber shop?
RP: Yea, uh huh.
PN: When did you move to Greenwood first?
RP: I moved to Greenwood in thirty—, I started [at] Greenwood in ' 39 . Then I, then I got me, after the war started up, then I got a job at the, for the company then, about '42.
PN: What did you do after ' 51, when you said you, you left the mine at Greenwood?
RP: Fifty—?
PN: Fifty—one, you said you .
RP: Just barbered.
PN: You 've been a barber?
RP: Right here.
PN: Since that time, right here?
RP: Right here. I 've been in here for 30 years.
PN: Of all your jobs, which one did you enjoy the most?
RP: Well, I don't know. I like, back, really back at that time, I really liked to work. I enjoyed working in the lumber. Of course, it's hard work. And it's hard work in mines too. But I can't say which one I liked the best. Course I, I really liked the mines the best in the wintertime, cause you'd be in out of the cold. Now you take on a lumber yard in the winter— time, it's cold. Back at that time, we were working ten hours a day, you know.
PN: You were?
RP: Started to work before daylight and quitted after dark. You don't have it now like you did then.
PN: Back, back when you started, around, when you started working for the lumber company around 1924, was that when you started?
RP: I don't, when I started working in, at…?
PN: When you were 17 years old?
RP: Something like that.
PN: How much, when you were working ten hours a day, how much would you get paid back then?
RP: Thirty—five cents a hour, First started out, twenty—five cents a hour.
Then I got, I guess, then after I got, got a steady job with them — that's just like working through the summer, you know — I got 25 cents a hour, and then, then after I got to working with them regular, I, I got 35 cents a hour.
PN: You were working in the lumber yards then, right?
RP: Uh huh. That's three dollars and a half a day.
PN: Did you ever operate the saws or anything like that?
RP: No.
PN: Did people who did that work, had they been there for a long time?
RP: Who's that?
PN: Were the people that actually operated the saws themselves, had they been there for a long time?
RP: They'd probably been there a long time. If you could get in contact with, with Ralph Bean [and] Ralph Mullins, they could tell you a whole lot more probably than I could. I'll tell you about people that worked at the Landisburg are getting scarce. About, all of them just about dead and gone.
PN: You said that Layland here was owned by the same company?
RP: Who's that?
PN: Layland here was owned by Babcock Lumber?
RP: No, no.
PN: But they had a company store across the street though?
RP: They just got the name over there. When they first, the reason that name's on that store over there, you see, Massey Coal Company took over, had Cliff top and run coal there a 1 mg time after that. They, they had that company store there at Cliff top. And then, then they, then Massey come over and put the store in over here.
PN: Oh.
RP: And then they, they just went by "Babcock Store."
PN: Was that A. T. Massey, or was that a different Massey?
RP: It's that, he’s that there coal—buyer. He don't, he don't he don't do too much in production, I don't think.
PN: But he's a coal—buyer?
RP: He's a coal buyer; he's one of the biggest in the United States. [This must be A. T. Massey, who is now part of St. Joe Minerals, which operates more non—union coal mines in the eastern United States than any other company.]
PN: And he bought Cliff top once?
RP: He, he, he didn't buy it, I don't guess; but he just operated it there for a, had control over It there for a long time.
PN: When did he start getting control there?
RP: I don't know just exactly when, after I left there.
PN: So that would be after '39?
RP : Yea, somewhere; he just, I think he leased it, you know. I think really they kind of blowed it out, you know, there for, then they took, in fact it sort of worked out. It was working out, and I think he ased the stores; and then, then they opened up some mines down here, what they call Landisburg, right down in there, they opened, he opened up a few mines on the…That coal over there at Cliff top, that was Sewell seam. Then he opened up over here on the, that was the same seam that Layland is.
PN: Let me just ask you one or two more questions while there's still time on the tape. When did you get married?
RP: Huh?
PN: When did you get married?
RP: When did I get married?
PN: Yea.
RP: Nineteen and thirty—three.
PN: And you were already working in the mine then?
RP: I hadn't started working in the mine. That's when I started after I got married. I had to go to work. [laughs] I had to go to work.
PN: You met your wife in Landisburg?
RP: Huh?
PN: Did you meet your wife when you were in Landisburg?
RP: Yea, one of them. I 've been married three times.
PN: Oh.
RP: My first wife, I met her when I was working at Landisburg. Course, I’ve had one boy, he, he, my first wife died 21 days after he was born. Then I got married again, that was about 18 months after that. And then, '71, she died. Then I got married again, and we're still fighting it out!
[End of Tape]
Description
Logging and coal mining, Babcock Lumber Company 1924-1931, coal miner at Clifftop
Date Created
11/22/1980
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