Audio
Oral History Interview with Steven Adams
Transcript
[Start of CT-2001-NPS-001_01]
Oloye Adeyemon: History Street Collection. Overview of the School Segregation Desegregation and Court Case interviews conda-conducted on November 9th, 2001, by phone. Interviewee, Mr. Steven Adams, superintendent of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic site in Topeka, Kansas. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interviews-these interviews were made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project funded for the summer of 2001 by the National Park Service as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic site oral history project. Mr. Adams.
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What is your full name?
Steve Adams: Steven E. Adams.
Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born?
Steve Adams: Davis Mountain Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthdate?
Steve Adams: May 19th, 1948.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were your parent’s names, if I may ask?
Steve Adams: My father’s name is Homer E. Adams. And my mother’s name was Hazel L. Weston 00:01:17 Adams.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what did they do for a living?
Steve Adams: Uh, my father is retired. Uh, my mother is deceased.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What-what did he do for a living?
Steve Adams: He was a career Air Force officer.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And where was he born?
Steve Adams: He was born in, uh, Lauderdale, Arkansas.
Oloye Adeyemon: And your mother?
Steve Adams: She was born in Brooken, Oklahoma.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Do you have brothers and sisters?
Steve Adams: Yes, I do.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, what are their names?
Steve Adams: Um, my oldest sister is Caroline 00:01:47 Adams. Uh, next was, uh, my sister Gale 00:01:54 Adams, now Gale Aber 00:01:57. And then my younger brother is Mark D. Adams.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what do you do for a living?
Steve Adams: I'm superintendent of Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site, a unit of the National Park Service.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And, uh, how long have you been there?
Steve Adams: I've been here about two years.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what did you do before that?
Steve Adams: I was superintendent at P. Ridge National Military Park in northwest Arkansas.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And how long was your tenure there?
Steve Adams: Uh, that was eight years.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And before that?
Steve Adams: Before that I was at the southwest regional office in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And that was in 1991. Before that, I was at Padre Island National Seashore as chief ranger.
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, what was your-what were your responsibilities at the southeast regional office?
Steve Adams: Southwest regional office?
Oloye Adeyemon: I'm sorry. Southwest. Sorry.
Steve Adams: I was, uh, chief of the branch of cultural resources management.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So, you’ve been in administration quite a while.
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. What did you do before you, um, went to that level? Were you with the park service in other capacities?
Steve Adams: Yes. Before the southwest regional office, I was a chief ranger at Padre Island National Seashore. That was in 1989 and 1990. Before that I was chief ranger at San Antonio Missions National Historical Park. And that was from, uh, 1984 through part of 1989. Before that, I was the group archeologist for the Navajo Lands Group, which had—they administered eight national park units in Arizona and New Mexico. And I was there from 1977 through 1983. And before that, I started out at the Western Archeologic Center in Tucson in 1974.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And I-I heard you say that you were an archeologist. Was that what your, um, training was in? Your educational background?
Steve Adams: E-educational background was in anthropology, uh, with a specialization in archeological method and theory.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where did you graduate?
Steve Adams: Um, my bachelor’s was from the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville, and my master’s from the University of Arizona in Tucson.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Did you go straight from school to the Park Service?
Steve Adams: Yes, I did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. You have quite a distinguished career. And it seems like—
Steve Adams: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - it’s getting-approaching 30 years now.
Steve Adams: Yeah, now that-and I went from graduate school to the Park Service. Before that, I was in the U.S. Navy.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Well, thank you very much for sharing that. The, um, focus of this interview—and I think I need to, um, maybe, uh, express for those that are gonna be reading the transcript in the future—that a number of interviews were conducted, uh, with people who were not directly involved with the court case or were not themselves students in the schools during the years of, uh, segregation-segregation. But I think that, um, for, um, very important reasons, there’s a, um, you know, value in-in interviewing some people that are playing a key role today. Because when we think of, uh, history collections, uh, we think of only the past, and we’re making history as we speak. And there’s no way that, uh, the commemorative efforts that are being done today are not in 50 years gonna be inseparable in the minds of people from the story itself. And, uh, you’ve played a very important role. In that regard, I guess, uh, just being the superintendent of a site such as, uh, Brown, but, um, in my conversations with you, I've gotten, um, a sense of this being something that’s important to you beyond just, uh, the responsibilities of a superintendent. A-am I correct on that?
Steve Adams: That’s very true.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, I guess what I’d like to start with is a little bit of background information so people can understand that, uh, you did not simply get involved with this because it was your job. Uh, and is it also safe to say that you chose to come to Brown at the point that you did?
Steve Adams: Yes. Uh, I received a call, uh, from our regional office, from the deputy regional director who, uh, asked me to consider coming here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So the—and then of course, you did accept. And you were already in a position-a-a similar position as a superintendent. Is that correct?
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, you-you did come by choice to work on this specific project. Uh, can you share with us what it is that, um, motivated you to do that? What-i-can you take us back a little further and help us to understand, uh, why this story is important to ya?
Steve Adams: Well, I-I guess there are actually two-two components to this. One is the story and-and one is the, uh, the, uh, rehabilitation project of the elementary school that we’ll be using for the visitor center. But in terms of the story, uh, I remember back when I was a-a young teenager, uh, at a family reunion at my paternal grandmother’s house, sitting around with my cousins. And this was—oh, it must have been late ‘50s, early ‘60s. Uh, integration came up as a topic of conversation, and, uh, I-I sort of remember me and my-one of my sisters being the only two advocates for integration.
And, uh, it was a-a very good discussion. It was civilized and, uh-uh, you know, I was allowed to speak my peace, even though I was just a young squirt. But, uh, having lived in Florida for a-a good part of my father’s career in the Air Force and-and when we would drive from Florida up through, uh, Alabama and Mississippi a-and up into Arkansas to see the grandparents, I-I remember very vividly the, uh, the signs that were still up at that time, and probably still are in some locations, where they would talk about White Only or-or Colored Only or whatever. And I don't know. It’s being raised as a child of the ‘50s with the influence of—I-I guess I attribute it-a large part of it, the influence of early television shows where, you know, the-the good guys stuck up for what was right. And I-I guess I took that to heart and never did understand the disparate treatment of people of-of color.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Is it safe to say that there were not only adults in your community at that time, but children as well, your peers, your classmates, that didn't share your progressive views?
Steve Adams: Oh, definitely. A-a-as I say, at our family reunion, I was a minority of one or two.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. What is it that mot-that-that-that shaped you having a view that was different than some of those around you?
Steve Adams: As I said, I think it was, uh, a combination of the-the kinds of things that, uh, you know, I was taught as a child. It’s-it’s very ironic that some of the things I've been criticized for in my life, uh, especially by older people, people who are old enough to be-you know, old-old enough-old as my parents—it’s ironic that they criticize my views when they were the generation that shaped those views—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - and then perhaps that was an unintended consequence on their part, but, uh, certainly it stuck with me.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Wouldn’t you say that’s one of the dilemma-dilemmas that American faces that, uh, the principals that are introduced are oftentimes contradicted in action?
Steve Adams: Oh, definitely. I mean, all you have to do is-is—I-I-I'm still—it’s incredible to me that back when the, uh, congress and-and the courts were debating the 14th Amendment, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: In the Supreme Court case.
Steve Adams: Well, in the-not just in-in Brown, but in Plessy v. Ferguson—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I understand.
Steve Adams: - and-and in between 1868 and 1896, you know, the-the language is very simple and very forthright, and, uh, it-it’s-it screams equality.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And-and yet there was this big debate on, you know, whether the words meant what-what they seemed to have meant.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. And-and this kind of, um, uh—'cause I know that there are many that, um, who object to some of the social changes that have occurred, and they’ve suggested that, um, people are-are, uh, stretching or misinterpreting, but in many ways that’s one of the, um, challenges too, in-in addition to there being this contradiction between the principals and the reality. But also there’s a struggle, uh, because no matter who the Supreme Court justices are, they’re gonna be faced with the challenge of their own personal values and the status quo when interpreting whatever cases come to them. Wouldn't you say that that’s true?
Steve Adams: Oh, yeah, and I-I think that, uh, was pointed out very strongly, uh, with last year’s, uh, presidential election. You know, that Supreme Court split along party lines.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And I—you know, un-unfortunately, those people have to be human. I mean, th-that’s what occupies those seats. But, uh, like I guess, uh, when it comes to voting your conscience, some people just aren’t able to resist temptation like—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: - they should.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And that is a-I imagine that’s a very challenging position for, um, legal minds because there’s the law, and then there’s the right thing to do. You know?
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that’s a-a-a-I imagine that’s pretty challenging. But I think that, um, it’s important that we all understand that when we talk about the Brown v. Board, um, Supreme Court case we’re talking about more than just school desegregation. We’re talking about a constitutional, uh, debate and challenge. And it-it elevates the story, uh, not only beyond it in the courtroom but when we look at the effects of it, wouldn't you say that the Brown v. Board, uh, Supreme Court case, uh, in some ways affected American society more quickly and more fully in, uh, areas outside of the, uh, school-the classroom in terms of integrating the society?
Steve Adams: Well, definitely. And-and, uh-uh, you know, I think that was certainly part of the intent because if-if you can show that, uh, segregation, uh, doesn't make any sense in the school system, then you're gonna have a hard time showing that it makes sense anywhere else.
Oloye Adeyemon: One of the surprising things in the interviews—well, maybe it shouldn’t be surprising—but how many people that were involved in one way or another in, uh, working for desegregation that-of the schools, specifically, that feel that their work made, uh, a major contribution, uh, to desegregating the society in general. But so many of them feel that the work of desegregating the schools has only just begun. Would you agree with that?
Steve Adams: Yeah, because it’s, uh, wi-with the defect of segregation that we’re experience-in experiencing, particularly in the larger cities, it’s a difficult issue, and we—part of the problem is that we’ve tried—al-although I think it was very necessary for us to go through the period of-of Brown v. Board and overturn, uh, school segregation and then begin to overturn segregation in other parts of our society, uh, in-in a way, we’re still—that-that was treating symptoms rather than causes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What are the causes?
Steve Adams: Well, uh, you know, if you look at the de facto segregation, a-a large part of it is economics. Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Are you speakin’ about housing patterns now?
Steve Adams: No. Well, yeah, that’s part of it. Wh-what-what I'm saying is that, uh, when-when people, uh, institutionally almost have not had access to a good education—and-and this tends to be along, uh, ethnic or racial lines—then, uh, they don't have the opportunity to move up and out of those neighborhoods.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And I-I guess that’s the whole idea behind school desegregation is for, uh, everybody to have the same opportunities to take advantage of a good education and improve their station in life. And until we address—'cause it’s not just the fact that-that some people can’t get a good education. It-it involves so many things in our society that are still, uh, racially motivated or racially based.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And until we do away with those things, uh, school integration or desegregation or segregation, however-wh-which point of view you wanna look at it, is only going to be part of the formula.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, several people in the course of the interviews, some of them, uh, lawyers, have indicated that you can’t legislate something like this. You have to change attitudes, ultimately, because people have tended to find a way to get around it because it’s such a dif-difficult issue and-and I’ve—particularly in the south when I did interviews, there-there was always a distinction made between—uh, especially by White’s—between desegregation and integration.
Uh, in their minds, desegregation was, uh, making it possible for people to, uh, go to a school other than one, uh-you know, that was segregated. But many of them—and even—I interviewed, um, Dr. Walters, who wrote The Burden of Brown, and he, um, was very much opposed to, um, bussing. And it seems to me that, um, for many, the-the, um, issue was just not having a segregated school. But there were a number of people that were quite eloquent in their, um, defense of-of integration. And by that, they meant where the schools had a-had a racial of population similar to the community, and they stressed that one of the ultimate goals which would help to change social values was for people of different backgrounds to go to school together so that they could grow up and-and work and live together.
Steve Adams: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you feel that that is, uh, where the most difficult challenge has been for people in terms of, uh, what, at least those who were fighting for desegregation were seeking?
Steve Adams: Well, you know, that’s-that’s a-that’s an interesting-interesting question, and I have a-I suspect that people of different ages have different answers to that. I-I guess, you know, one way of-of catching my answer is-is looking at it from my experience. I remember, you know, when-when my father retired from the Air Force, we moved to Arkansas so that, uh, we kids could be close to-to the university. And I guess, uh, Fayetteville was more progressive than some of the other towns in the state because, uh, when I started goin’ to junior high school, it was integrated, as was the high school.
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that?
Steve Adams: Uh, it was 1960 or so.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.
Steve Adams: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: I went to a segregated high school in, uh, Cleveland, Ohio from ’60-uh, well, junior high and high-from ’61 through ’67, and it wasn’t until my daughter, uh, was in school that they did bussing, which was the only way, in Cleveland at least, they could, uh, achieve, um, integration because neighborhoods were so, uh, segregated. That’s interesting.
Steve Adams: Well, you know, when-when-when I was going to school with, uh—you know, we had n-not only, uh, African Americans but, uh, Hispanic Americans there too.
Oloye Adeyemon: How did they get along? How did the students get along?
Steve Adams: Uh, for the most part got along fine.
Oloye Adeyemon: Huh.
Steve Adams: And-and my-my personal view was, you know, why—
Oloye Adeyemon: What’s the big deal.
Steve Adams: - why was this such a big deal. Uh, it-it-it didn't make any sense to me.
Oloye Adeyemon: The adults just needed to back up and let the children work it out. Huh?
Steve Adams: Yeah. And, uh, I think that’s an excellent point. That’s-that’s another subject all together. The adults staying out of it. But I think that, yeah, uh, not only in terms of-of people going to school together and-and taking part in-in activities together—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Steve Adams: - wh-what I was saying was an example here in Topeka where ostensibly the high school was integrated but they had separate sports teams, they had separate social activities, uh, whereas where I went to school in Fayetteville, uh, junior high school and high school, our social events and-and sports, uh, teams were-were all integrated.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow.
Steve Adams: And, uh, of course the university was integrated. Uh, wh-when I went into the service, I worked with, uh, all kinds of-of people of color. Uh, most of my bosses, I-I had, uh, uh, several that were American Indian. Had one that was African American. One that was Mexican American.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Steve Adams: And, uh, working in-with the National Park Service, I've had, you know, the benefit of working with, uh, a lot of different, uh, people, including people of-of color. And I-I-I think it’s—you know, maybe one of the barriers that-that people-that-that-that White people a-and probably people of color also, too, because, you know, it-it goes both ways—when you don't work together, when you don't have at least some social activities together, uh, you know, you don't understand the other people, uh, sometimes you don't understand your own feelings.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: But as you work with people, as you play with people and begin to see them as people rather than somebody of another color, then I think for a lot of people, you know, you kinda mentally relax and say, hey, you know, wh-what’s the big deal again? So, I-I—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm.
Steve Adams: - think that, uh, a big part of the-the answer to some of the-some of the lingering, uh-uh, segregation is that we haven't done enough, uh, together. And of-of course, you know, I-I-I guess I spoke about segregation versus bigotry because bigotry is an entirely different matter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: I mean, that’s a different level of segregation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And there are some people that, you know, you’ll never get through to because that’s-you know, they’re basically set for life—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - with that kind of attitude.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. And then, too, there are some White children who will not choose to interact with one another so we can’t assume that every White child that sits in a lunchroom with other White children, or every Black child that does so, is segregating themselves. They may be doing it because they go to the same church with that person, so and so—we have to di—I-I-I think that’s your point that, you know, it’s-it’s so many other issues, and some of it we won’t be able to change no matter what’s legislated. And others will take their course and, you know, it’s the-the main thing, I think, is the contact and the opportunity for people to know each other. Would you agree?
Steve Adams: Yes. Definitely. That was exactly my point.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Uh, you-you have used the term people of color, and I think that that’s, um, useful because I think that people forget that, um, this case, uh, opened up public education-and integrated public e-educational opportunities for many people that were also, uh, discriminated against, other than just African Americans.
Steve Adams: That’s correct. And-and that’s very much one of our interpretive, uh, messages that it’s not just about African Americans because there were legal cases brought by Asian Americans, by Mexican Americans, by American Indians, uh, and-and some of the continuing legal cases have been brought by, uh, people from different ethnic backgrounds. So, it’s-it’s not just—a-and when you talk about—o-one of the myths that we fight with Brown v. Board of Education is that it’s only about African Americans. And when that-that myth, uh, is allowed to keep going, it, in-in a way, trivializes the story because really what we’re talking about is human rights.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And everybody benefits when everybody’s free.
Steve Adams: That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I was, um, very happy that I had the opportunity to-to interview so many superintendent’s past and present in these communities where this story occurred.
Steve Adams: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And, um, several of the current superintendents as well-well as those that have been in that position, uh, earlier in the history have commented on the fact that the school-schools have improved. Um, that this—and-and one of the ways that many people feel that they’ve improved is that people of different backgrounds have contact with each other. But, um, it-it also has been of, um, very, um, great importance, especially in some of the southern areas for poorer Whites whose education opportunities were limited—
Steve Adams: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the past.
Steve Adams: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I think that that’s a message that, um, needs to be gotten out. You know, that this story has affected everyone, and the Supreme Court case, uh, technically was as much about the constitution as it was school desegregation.
Steve Adams: Yeah. And I-I-I think that i-if people dig a little further into that aspect of it, you know, basically all this stuff comes down to money.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. How so?
Steve Adams: Fo-follow the money. Uh, slavery. Follow the money.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: Reconstruction. Follow the money.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: Segregation. Follow the money. Wh-in other words, why are these things occurring? In my opinion, it comes down to, uh, you know, what-what’s in people’s pockets and-and how can they get more?
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: And a lot of segregation is based upon keeping those other folks from getting the money that you're going for.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. And it’s interesting, but the South’s fight was not just about integration but, in some cases, uh, northern values that would change the way in which the land that aristocracy, uh, related to those that were landless, which, of course, included many Whites. So, yeah, I-I-I see your point, uh—
Steve Adams: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - clearly.
Steve Adams: And that’s—it’s a very important point that, you know, we still have a, uh, a social structure in America that is, uh, is not very pleasant to-to look at. Uh, you know, the-the-the pe-the very rich people, a lot of them are doing what they can to stay rich. And a lot of, uh—especially in the, uh, 19th Century and earlier part of the 20th Century, the-the people who got rich did so by, y-you know, they-they-they did it on the backs of, uh, tens of thousands of other people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: Um, they didn't-they didn't get there because of, uh, any of their-their humanitarian nature.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. So, it’s safe to say then that in addition to this being a social story about integration, it’s also a-a struggle, uh, to equalize the education regardless to the class level.
Steve Adams: Yeah. And, you know, I-I don't-I don't wanna sound snobbish about this, and I-I don't think it is, but, you know, the more education that someone gets, the-the broader their perspective can become, uh, the more they have the opportunity to travel around the country, around the world, the broader their perspectives become—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - and the more receptive they are to different ideas and different people. So, I think an education for-for whoever—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - is a critical part of becoming a better citizen who-who is more inclusive, uh, i-in regards to other people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. I appreciate you sharing a little bit of your, you know, personal views. And on that note, I’d like to switch, in the time that we have left, and talk a-about how the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site came to be established. And I want to do it both in terms of the history of the Park Service unit itself but also because there will be people listening to these, uh, tapes possibly and at least, uh, reading the transcripts, that may be lawyers and educators and others, but among those, I suspect that there will be those involved with interpretive planning or historic preservation. And maybe this would be helpful to some of those that are trying to preserve a site or whatever.
Uh, can you share with me, um—I've-I've interviewed, um, Cheryl Brown, the head of the Brown Foundation, whose efforts, uh, led to, um, pre-you know, keeping the building. Um, you know, or keep making-makin’ the building a-a National Historic Site and so on. I'm no-o-on the National Registry, at least, and getting it, uh, purchased and-and saved. But I wonder if you could, first of all, tell us what are the steps that would be followed, not so much, um, with a school involved with the Brown case, but with something of this type in a community where people feel it’s an important part of their history and it’s in danger of being lost? Particularly a site that might exist.
Steve Adams: Well, there-there are basically two different ways that a-a resource comes into National Park System, and, uh, I-I would like to remind people that, you know, when you think of the National Park System, remember that National—the-the two different ways are that, uh, those resources that are in the National Park System are supposed to be representative of the cultural and Natural resources within the nation. And what the Park Service does is, uh, think about all the different categories of resources, whether it’s archeologic sites or historic buildings related historically significant persons or historic buildings, uh, that are important because of their architectural, uh, innovations or whether it’s, uh, some, uh, some wetlands in Florida or-or mountains in-in, uh-uh, Wyoming or whatever.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I think it’s important to make a distinction 'cause many people may think of the National Park as just a collection-National Park Service as just a collection of parks. There are parks that have historic elements, but the Park Service is also responsible for buildings that have historic significance in some cases. Is that-that is-I mean, that have nothing to do with a-a—
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - specific park that’s in existence.
Steve Adams: And-and most parks have components of-of natural and cultural resources.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And when you say cultural resource, you're con-con-including those properties or sites that have historic significance.
Steve Adams: Yeah, that-that includes buildings and-and archaeological sites a-and any other kinds of, uh, cultural resources.
Steve Adams: Uh, now, the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic site is a Park Service unit, but it does not sit within a park.
Steve Adams: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that correct, or is that the correct way to say that?
Steve Adams: Well, that-that’s-that’s no-that’s a nomenclature question.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: But I'm sayin’, there was not a park in that place already. Did you have to establish that as a National Park and-and-or was it possible to just do it as a site without it having to be designated as a National Park? And-and y-you're saying that is a nomenclature question?
Steve Adams: Yeah, because there-there are different category-no-not only different, uh, categories in terms of cultural and natural resources but different categories in terms of the, uh, the, uh, the extension on the name of the site. When—i-in some cases, we talk about National Parks in a generic sense, i-i-in the sense of those su-those 385 units that are within the National Park System.
Oloye Adeyemon: Throughout the country.
Steve Adams: Throughout the country. But when you're talking about an-an individual site, there are-there aren’t that many National Parks. National Parks tend to be, uh, large units-uh, large natural units.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: Uh, National Historic sites tend to be small sites with historic buildings.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: You’ve got National Lakeshores, National Seashores, National Military Parks, National Battlefield Parks. So—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you're sayin’ that the National Historic Sites are a very significant part of that 385 units.
Steve Adams: Well, I-I think, i-i-if I'm correct in my memory, that, uh, National Historic Sites are, uh, probably the most prevalent type of-of unit in the National Park Service.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would you say that-that the general public’s not aware of that?
Steve Adams: Yeah, I-I-I would say that’s probably true, but ge-getting back to the question of how-how a site comes into the National Park System, uh, one way is the National Park Service looks at these different resource categories and determines, uh, where we’re lacking in a representative site for that category.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And so, we’ll do what’s called a special resource study on an area that, uh, that we think may be-may-may merit inclusion in the National Park System. The other way that this can occur is, uh, in cases like what happened here in Topeka, where there was a grassroots effort locally. Uh, people getting with their-their delegation—
Oloye Adeyemon: Congressional de-delegation.
Steve Adams: Congressional delegation, and-and asking them to, uh, facilitate a-a resource study for a particular site. And-and then that’s what happened in the case of Brown. And, uh, Congress then asked the National Park Service to do a special resource study on the, uh, on Monroe Elementary School. And, uh, that process—
Oloye Adeyemon: Which was one of the segregated, um—
Steve Adams: One of-one—
Oloye Adeyemon: - schools—
Steve Adams: - [crosstalk 35:58].
Oloye Adeyemon: - elementary schools for African Americans in Topeka?
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that’s where the site is today.
Steve Adams: Yeah. And so, the-that occurred. The resource study was done, and, uh, then, uh, the—
Oloye Adeyemon: How long did the resource study take, and generally, how long do they take?
Steve Adams: Well, generally, they-they can take, oh, 18 to 24 months when-when they get started.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: And so, the whole process may be more like three years.
Oloye Adeyemon: And-and it’s to determine, uh, what there is-what the story that would be told would be?
Steve Adams: No, it’s to determine, uh, whether it meets the, uh, criteria to come into the National Park—
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: And, uh, there-there are basically two criteria that a site should meet before it becomes part of the National Park System.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: One is suitability.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And, uh, the other is feasibility.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: Now, suitability has to do with, number one, it needs to be a nationally significant site. There-there are sites that have historical significance, but they may be only significant to a local area or to a state. Uh, whereas a-a nationally significant thing is something that-that’s going to be recognized across people-across the country as something that’s very significant to our national history.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And it also has to do with, uh, whether or not we already have a representative site from that category.
Oloye Adeyemon: From that category. I see.
Steve Adams: And then, feasibility has to do with, you know, is there enough physical integrity in the site so that it can be interpreted—
Oloye Adeyemon: Adequately.
Steve Adams: - and—
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: - and whether or not it’s, uh, can-can be reasonably operated o-o-on a-on a reasonable amount of, uh, money.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. I haven’t, um, taken, uh, on the responsibility of explaining what the Park Service does and how it works, but based on our conversation thus far—and I had this sense already, uh, there are many people that are not clearin’ a lot of these issues that you're speakin’ about, and I wanna go back to one. And that has to do with, um, the Park Service-the process. Uh, you said that sometimes the, um, I guess the region will determine that, um, a resource study is in order or sometimes a local grassroots effort will lead their delegation to, um, you know, fight for that in Washington. But, uh, I think it’s important, uh, to stress that it isn’t an arbitrary decision on the Park Service’s point 'cause even when the Park Service initiates the process, you're initiating the process with monies that were given to you by Congress for that purpose. I-it’s not arbitrary where, you know, you do it because you, you know, know somebody or you—you know-know, 'cause the-there-there have been questions that people have asked, well, why Topeka and, uh, I guess it’s partly a result of the grassroots effort and also, uh, something that the Park Service itself is required to do but has to, um, find an appropriate site to do that with. And in this case, um, it was partly that grassroots effort that brought it to a national attention, and then with that national attention, the Park Service simply went about doing what it was required to do.
Steve Adams: You know, and-and of course, those decisions-the-the decision on what special resource studies to do, you know, regional offices can-can make recommendations, but it’s basically the Washington office that determines what studies will go forth. And then-and-and in turn, uh, the Washington office has to work carefully with congressional staff to let them know, you know, what we’re wanting to study—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: - and of course, Congress has the-the authority to either give us the money for that resource study or not.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. So, while the Park Service makes its recommendation and the work is done by the Park Service, you're really assigned this responsibility by Congress. Is that accurate to—
Steve Adams: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - say?
Steve Adams: - uh, wh-when-when it’s their initiative, yes. But when it’s our initiative—basically what—they-they can-they can affect our internal process through the-the appropriations.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: But, uh, they’re two different tracks. One is, uh, if the National Park Service thinks it needs to do a Na-a-a, uh, special resource study a-and the other is Congress wanting us to do a special resource study. So—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: - uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Well, that’s very helpful. Now, going back. Before—at what point, uh, did the Park Service get involved with the Monroe School? What had already been accomplished? Uh, 'cause I understand that it was initiated on a grassroots level. What did they do prior to the Park Service, uh, taking-you know, takin’ a-a more active role or-or greater responsibility? And I'm assuming there’s stages in this process.
Steve Adams: Uh, yeah, and it was kind of mixed for Topeka because, uh, the, uh, the Sumner 00:41:21 Elementary School, which is one of the, uh, White schools involved in the Topeka case was, uh, studied by the National Park Service a-a couple of years beforehand as part of a, uh, constitutional-theme study. And so, Sumner wound up being, uh, nominated as a National Historic Landmark.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you're sayin’ that it was a National Landmark prior to the Monroe School?
Steve Adams: That’s correct. And then when, uh, the Brown Foundation brought it to the Park Service’s attention that, uh, you know, the Monroe School, which was also directly involved in the Topeka case, uh, w-was not part of, uh, part of that, uh, landmark nomination, then, uh, the National Park Service looked at-at the, uh, the historical information and the facts and-and added Monroe to the nomination form for Sumner Elementary.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, so, they were combined.
Steve Adams: So, they were combined.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now this was the National Landmark, um, that you're speakin’ about now.
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, um, Monroe School was al-already a nit-national-o-on the national registry or not?
Steve Adams: Yes. Well, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: At that point.
Steve Adams: Uh, national historic landmark is-is, uh—there-there are two types of sites on the National Register, and one is sites that are of National Register significance or quality and-and kind of a higher level, higher quality of sites designated National Historic Landmark.
Oloye Adeyemon: But that’s not necessarily a two-step process. Some sites—
Steve Adams: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - go on the registry as a National Landmark.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: And that, uh—Monroe was added to that, uh, National Historic Landmark nomination in 1991. And, uh, then the-the resource-special resource study, uh, was done, uh, a-at an accelerated pace. And then, in, uh, October of 1992, President Bush signed the, uh, legislation that, uh, established the-the, uh, National Historic Site.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, once that was done, uh, it-does that immediately qualify it as a Park Service unit? 'Cause we’re making a distinction between a National Historic landmark and a National Historic site. Is that—
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: National Historic site designates a Park Service unit. Is that correct?
Steve Adams: The—yes. Yeah, the-the-there-there are National Historic Landmarks in the country that are not part of the National Park System.
Oloye Adeyemon: But if they should be, they would be designated National Historic sites within the Park Service unit? I mean, P-Park Service System.
Steve Adams: Uh, not necessarily, because you have—a-again, we’re go-we’re going back to nomenclature.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: Uh, there are National Historical Parks that have National Historic Landmarks in them as separate, uh, separate resources on the National Register. So, uh—but when—i-i-if-if-if you're looking at a single resource such as the Monroe School, it’s a National Historic Landmark then the way those units are brought into the Park Service is as National Historic Sites.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. I think I—
Steve Adams: So, it depends on a lot of different factors, and I know this is very confusing.
Oloye Adeyemon: No, no, actually, it’s clarify—it’s been confusing, but I think this-this is going to clear it up. Hold on one second, please.
[End of CT-2001-NPS-001_01]
[Start of CT-2001-NPS-001_02]
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. I'm ready. Yeah, so that-that’s very helpful to, um, clear up some of these points. So, the Monroe School, um, became a National Historic Landmark, and then there was legislation passed that made it a Park Service unit.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: But it sounds as if—now, let me back up. Would it be possible-it-it-it would be possible then for a site to become a National Landmark without, um, necessarily, uh, the Park Service being involved in-in the re-in doing a-a resource study and that type of thing.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. But there also are cases where the National Park Service, in the process of-of-of its own research, uh, determines that something’s a National Historic Landmark.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. I'm clear. So—and again, I wanna make sure that I'm-I'm, uh, accurate i-i-in-in-in-in footnoting or anything that I do, the Park Service is oftentimes the one that initiates this process. Other times, uh, it’s done by, uh, you know, grassroots organizations sometimes in local communities who go through their-their congressmen and so on.
Steve Adams: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So—and I guess, at this point, it might be helpful if people know that there’s a history office connected to the National Park Service because when we’re talkin’ about all this history, uh, it’s not just the people who, um, who are park rangers that play an important role. Um, the-there is the office that-that looks at sites that are nominated to the National Registry as a Park Service office. Am-am I correct in that?
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: And what is the te-correct name of that office?
Steve Adams: Uh, I think it’s the National Register Program Office.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they would be the ones that would designate something as, uh, that type of, uh, give it that recognition.
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: But that doesn't mean that that particular, uh, site is gonna get funding. It’s just—
Steve Adams: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - indicating that—
Steve Adams: Not-not at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: - it’s—
Steve Adams: Not at all. That’s just a recognition of its historical significance.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, the national office is connected to the state historic preservation office in each state. Is that correct?
Steve Adams: Well, the, uh—well, that’s another complicated answer.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, no. I didn't mean to do that.
Steve Adams: The, uh-the, uh-the-the National Register program is a National Park Service program.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: Now, the, uh, state’s historic preservation officers are a very important component of that program, and so it’s, uh-uh, it’s a very close partnership between the National Park Service and the state historic preservation officers.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Now, there are often are sites that get state markers or state historic resignate-recognition that don't become part of the National Registry. Is that true?
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, is that because the local communities might have to take the initiative but in most cases, the standard of the state would be similar to the standard of the nation?
Steve Adams: Yeah, the-the state standards, uh, mirror the national standards. And-and-but what-what they’re geared for is resources that have, uh, significance for the state—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - but don't reach the level of national significance.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, the state, uh, states that-sites that have state significance would be, uh-would be of importance in the-in the history of that particular state whereas the other sites would be located in the state would have significance for the entire nation.
Steve Adams: That is correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: And many states have their own, uh, register of historic places.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And they sometimes have a-a-a system for marking those—
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - those sites. Now, the-the state historic preservation office is the office that receives the application for the National Register. Is that correct?
Steve Adams: Uh, well, it depends. The-they can go, uh, directly—i-i-in some cases, yes, in some cases they go directly to the National Register Program office in Washington. If it’s-for instance, if it’s being done by the National Park Service.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. So, in the case of the Monroe School, it became part of the, uh, National Landmark designation that was received by, um, the school that already had-had been part of that application. It was combined with that-what I understood you to say earlier?
Steve Adams: Yes, it was combined with the, uh, Monroe-the, uh, Sumner.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, at the point in, uh, the case of, uh, Monroe School, uh, I-I understand that there was a-a survey done at the point that it became part of that-that, um, nomination. Is that correct?
Steve Adams: A-a survey—um, I don't understand the question.
Oloye Adeyemon: O-o-of-of resources study.
Steve Adams: Yeah, it was a-a special-special resource study was done.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now—
Steve Adams: [Crosstalk 05:10].
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that done prior to that being added or after it was added?
Steve Adams: I think it was, uh, after. But that-it occurred about the same time, so, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Would that have been a requirement for it to be fully accepted as part of that, uh-the application of the first, uh, school? In order for it to-to be joined, did-did it—was that something that was done-was followed through on? Is that-w-would that have been something that-that—I guess what I'm asking is, was it already recognized as a National Landmark and the resource study simply done to determine how to best interpret it, or was the resource study a part of determining that it was a national landmark?
Steve Adams: Uh, my-my guess is that it was, uh, the-that, uh, Monroe was added to the Sumner nomination first and then, uh, then when the, uh-the, uh, suitability and feasibility study—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: - was done, that was done-uh, it looks like it was done after that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Now, let me make sure I'm clear because I think you’ve answered it, but I-I—and for the record, I want it to be clear. So, the suitability and feasibility study is not so much to determine that is a national landmark as it is—
Steve Adams: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - to determine it should be interpreted, or is it, in fact, necessary for that to occur? 'Cause I understand it—the—to become a national, uh, to-to-to get listed on the National Register, it’s simply a matter of doing an application properly, you know, that that does not involve a resource study. Or does it?
Steve Adams: The, uh—a-a resource can be nominated to the National Register, uh, without it being affiliated with any park. So that, for instance, there are historic sites that are in private ownership but are part of the National Register and even some that are, uh, National Historic Landmarks.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: So, the National Historic Landmark nomination for Monroe, what-what that particular action did was it established the national significance of Monroe.
Oloye Adeyemon: But the suitability and feasibility study was to determine whether or not it would be appropriate for it to be part of the Park Service System.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. So, that took approximately how long?
Steve Adams: Well, that was a—uh, a-apparently, that was done on a very rapid basis because that was, uh, apparently conducted all in 1991.
Oloye Adeyemon: How long does it usually take?
Steve Adams: Oh, gosh. Uh, it-it can vary, but, uh, normally I think it takes at least 18 months.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Mm-hmm. At least that. Maybe more.
Steve Adams: Y-yeah, because i-if there’s, uh, some opposition to it, which there usually is—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - then, uh, you know, that-that complicates the process.
Oloye Adeyemon: Why would there be opposition?
Steve Adams: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: What typically are some of the reasons why—
Steve Adams: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - people—
Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, typically some-some of the reasons are that-that people feels it’s a federal landgrab, uh, and-and they don't want the federal government to have more land. Some-some are concerned that, uh, the land itself would be taken out the tax base and-and would reduce the, uh, the taxes available to the-the, uh, the community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And sometimes there may be objections about the money being stood on-for that purpose?
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Because now we’re talking about federal dollars. Am-am I right?
Steve Adams: Yeah, but-but when a, uh, when a property comes into the National Park Service it is no longer on the tax roll.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. But I'm saying that the money invested in just the suitability and feasibility study would be taxpayer dollars.
Steve Adams: That is correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Uh, are those fundin’s-uh, d-does that funding have to be allocated on an as-needed basis, or is there a reserve for such purposes?
Steve Adams: Uh, it’s-it’s my understanding that-that, uh—well, when-when Congress asked us to do a resource study, that, uh, they appropriate the money for that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: Or sometimes they will tell us to do it within available funds.
Oloye Adeyemon: But as you were saying earlier, there’s some projects that you initiated in those cases—
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to get funding for that. So, in the case of, uh, Monroe School, was there opposition, to your knowledge?
Steve Adams: Uh, now that, I don't know.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. But it did go through, uh, relatively quickly, which would suggest that there might not have been any significant opposition that might have delayed the process.
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Once the school was, uh, deemed suitable and the project considered to be feasible, uh, what happened next? What-what was the next step?
Steve Adams: Well, the, uh, legislation was, uh, drafted and, uh, I'm sure there were—uh-uh, there was a lot of time spent between the National Park Service liaison and the Congressional, uh, staff to, uh, make sure the language was appropriate and-and covered everything. And then, uh, it, uh, it would have-had to have passed both houses, and then it went to the president for a signature.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. The Brown Foundation had worked hard to get the building preserved in the beginning. They continued to play a role during that stage, as well, didn't they?
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And adding input and recommend-being allowed to sit at the table and recommend—
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: - [crosstalk 11:23]. Okay.
Steve Adams: And-and-and providing a lot of, uh, expertise on the history of-of the, uh, court case itself.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Had the, uh, findings, uh, come back that it was not suitable or not feasible, what would have happened?
Steve Adams: Well, I-I can’t predict that because—
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, not in this case. But I'm saying, when that ever happens, if that should happen, uh, have-has-has that happened, and if so, what-what, uh—is it-is the project abandoned, or are there other—
Steve Adams: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: - ways that, you know, people might pursue it? 'Cause I'm understanding that these sites can become museums or other things without being part of the Park Service, uh, System. That the Park Service deeming that does not mean it doesn't have significance. It just means—am I correct—that the Park Service might not be in a position to do it within its own standards or own guidelines?
Steve Adams: Well, a-a-a site can have national significance and still not be suitable for the Park Service either because of physical integrity or because we already have a representative sample of that-or example in the park system.
Oloye Adeyemon: And sometimes it takes the study to determine that. Is that true?
Steve Adams: That’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: That you can’t make a-a-a judgment sometimes without doing—
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - the resource study.
Steve Adams: And-and in some cases, for instance, there—it’s not unusual for the Park Service to-National Park Service to complete a resource study and conclude that it’s either not suitable or not feasible, and in some cases, uh, Congress decides to go ahead with the legislation, and they come into the National Park System.
Oloye Adeyemon: One thing that’s been cleared up from our conversation is how and why a single site would be designated as the place that the story is being told because, you know, you’ve-you’ve emphasized several times that one of the criteria is that the Park Service does not already have a site that tells that particular story.
Steve Adams: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And I think that that’s very helpful because I know when I went around the country interviewing people, uh, that was something they didn't understand. Why—they understood that, uh, Topeka not only played a-it’s-had its significance within the context of everything and they knew that the name had been given to the case, but I assured them that it was not simply because it was called Brown that Monroe School had been designated that. And, uh, some of the things that you’ve said, I’ve, um, said myself. But it's so much clearer now how that process happened and why, uh, a particular site would be the focal point, as far as the National Park Service is considered. But that in no ways, uh, takes away from, uh, efforts in other communities to, uh, to commemorate their part of the story.
Steve Adams: No, not at all. And-and, you know, there’s an-another part of this that the-the school building aside, the-the story of Brown v. Board of Education could be affectively told in any of the schools that were involved in the case.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And if, for instance, there-you know, there-there are all kinds of different perspectives on this. If, uh, if the case had, uh, been named at the Supreme Court—wh-when they combined the state cases, if they had decided to, uh, put it under the umbrella of, uh, Bulah v. Gebhart, if there had been an appropriate, uh, structure in Delaware in which to interpret the story, then that’s probably where it would have wound up being interpreted.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. So, the fact that it was called Brown did have significance in the decision—
Steve Adams: Well, it-it had-it had something to do with it. Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: But I guess another reason was because there was no, at that point, any legislation that had be-been presented in support of another site being selected. Is that—
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: - true? I understand. So, it’s a combination of factors that-that led to that decision. The, uh—once the, um, resource study was done [unintelligible 15:49] the resource study was done it was deemed suitable and feasible, uh, up until that point, the unit has not been established with the establishment of the unit. It occurred even though the building was not ready by opening an office in the federal, uh, post office. Is that correct?
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And that’s where you still are in-on the second floor of the, uh, main post office in Topeka.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, and your office has been that same room throughout that period?
Steve Adams: Uh, I think they have moved around a little bit. I think they used to be up on the third floor.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what year would that have been? I heard you say that the study took all of ’91. By ’92, had the unit been established, and were you already in your offices there?
Steve Adams: Well, it was, uh-uh, authorized on October 26th, 1992.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, this involved, uh, the-the findings of the study, uh, being released. And this required further congressional action?
Steve Adams: Well, yeah, just-just because the study is concluded doesn't really accomplish anything. Then it has to go through legis-the legislative process.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. Of it being established as a Park Service unit.
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: And in this case, um, this authorization appropriation is, uh, done in such a way to ensure that this process will not have to ask for money each year. Is that-is that also true?
Steve Adams: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Or does the site have to consistently go back for funding for—you know, or is it something that-that is a permanent-it made a permanent part of the, uh, Park Service. How does that-how does that work in terms of, um, the site being able to sustain itself?
Steve Adams: Okay. You're talking about operating funds.
Oloye Adeyemon: Operating funds and-and I guess even monies to develop, uh, your interpretive plan and so on.
Steve Adams: Well, those are pretty much three separate processes.
Oloye Adeyemon: What’s—
Steve Adams: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: - the first?
Steve Adams: Well, the—when-when—what I'm speaking to is that, uh, legislation establishing or authorizing the establishment of the park—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - uh, does not automatically include an appropriation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Until that appropriation is made available, nothing can occur.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, was it authorized or appropriated in ’92?
Steve Adams: It was authorized in ’92 and then-then the funds were appropriated, uh, for the operation of the site through the-through the, uh, president’s budget request.
Oloye Adeyemon: In ’92.
Steve Adams: Well, it—
Oloye Adeyemon: Or was it the followin’—
Steve Adams: Yeah, October—
Oloye Adeyemon: - year?
Steve Adams: This—I don't remember that. We were still, uh—I think that’s the same fiscal year as we have now. And that—October 26th, that’s-that’s fiscal year 2003. So, uh, a-apparently they had, uh, requested funding for fiscal year 2003. And once the operating base is established, more or less, that’s fairly consistent. And then, uh, monies for the rehabilitation of the site and development of programs, uh, associated with the rehabilitation, that was-that’s a different, uh-uh, process for requesting that money.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, is that a request to use money that-that have already been appropriated to you, or is that a separate appropriation as well?
Steve Adams: That’s a-that’s a separate appropriation.
Oloye Adeyemon: When was that-do you know when that occurred?
Steve Adams: Well, the-the, uh, a lot of planning had to be done in between the rehabilitation and the establishment of the park. And then, uh, you know, they had to determine what-what interpretive themes were going to be used. Uh, had to determine, uh, how to set up the school for visitor services. Those sorts of things.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And then the, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you were able to use some of your other sites around the country as a model. Right?
Steve Adams: Well, sorta. The-the-there’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: It wasn’t the first time you were doin’ such a thing.
Steve Adams: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Y-you just had to do it-had to tailor it the needs of that particular site.
Steve Adams: That is correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: All right. But let me understand. You actually had to, uh, get funding for this. It was not something that you were able to do out of your-your Midwest Regional Budget.
Steve Adams: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Steve Adams: No, not at all.
Oloye Adeyemon: And has-has it been pretty smooth? Has the process of-of getting the appropriations, uh, you know, gone pretty smoothly?
Steve Adams: Oh, fairly smoothly. Fairly smoothly. Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: And so, the first step was the-you know, getting the funding for rehabilating the building?
Steve Adams: Uh, well, the-the-the first step was to get the, uh, planning monies. And I don't-I don't know if, uh, if that was appropriated separately or what it was used on—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - in, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, the planning monies—
Steve Adams: - [crosstalk 21:20] planning—
Oloye Adeyemon: - would have allowed you to open your office. Is that—
Steve Adams: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - correct?
Steve Adams: Le-le-let me finish my—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Steve Adams: I-I-I'm gettin’ confused here.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Steve Adams: Uh, the, uh—I don't know whether the planning-the initial planning money for the general management plan was appropriated separately or if that came out of the-an existing source.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: And then the monies for the physical rehabilitation had to be appropriated separately through the line item construction program.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. I see. Now, where would the monies for your operating expenses in the interim period come from?
Steve Adams: That would come from the operating base.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. And your initial staff, in the very beginning, would have consisted of what?
Steve Adams: Uh, that I don't know. I-I haven't been here very long.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. But it would be a skeleton staff.
Steve Adams: Yeah. Yeah. Just, uh, I believe they had a-a superintendent and the administrative officer and a-a, uh, park ranger interpreter—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - and, uh, somebody on maintenance staff. I think that’s about all.
Oloye Adeyemon: I know now people actually are visiting the post office, and you do have an exhibit, uh, that’s available for them to see. You have a-a-a video, uh, presentation. How long has the facility been open to the public in that way?
Steve Adams: Uh, apprarently since about May of ’98.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. So, it took some time before you were prepared to do that?
Steve Adams: Well, and that really wasn’t, uh—you know, the-the small staff that was here was really here to do the planning and development—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - and, uh, the-during those first years between, uh-uh, ’90—it looks like December of ’93 and May of 1998—
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Steve Adams: - they were concentrating on the planning.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Steve Adams: And, uh, so then they decided that with-with the case-with-with-with, uh, the, uh, 50th anniversary year growing closer and more and more visitor inquiries they decided to go ahead and-and open up a small visitor center—
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: - and accommodate those folks.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when did-when again did you say you arrived?
Steve Adams: I arrived in December of ’99.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Since you’ve been, uh, the superintendent, what has your, uh, attendance been, and has it-has it been increasing? The attendance that people a-are coming into, uh, what-what you, uh, with the exhibits you have there and-and the presentation, uh, you know, the-the visitors that you have coming to the post office. Has that-uh, what is that-what-what have those numbers been like?
Steve Adams: Uh, very small. I think last year we had-l-last fiscal year we had something like 250 people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Has that been increasing?
Steve Adams: No. It’s-it’s-it’s been about the same over the past couple of years.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And it had come down fairly significantly from three years ago.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh. Is there a lot of advertisement? Do you encourage people to come at this point, or are you waiting till you open—
Steve Adams: No, it’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: - at Monroe School?
Steve Adams: - it’s real-the-the interim visitor center is really just a-a service for people that-that wanna come and see something because—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - it’s, uh, it-it’s a very small-it’s really more of a contact station.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: We’ve got a video. The, uh, interpretative exhibits are not, uh, very—
Oloye Adeyemon: Fully developed.
Steve Adams: - polished.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And, uh, so, we-we really don't en-go out in public and encourage people. Now, we do spend significant time, both we and the Foundation, do, in what we call outreach programs.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And we-we reached, uh, last year, over 10,000 people.
Oloye Adeyemon: Wow. Would that be primarily in the schools?
Steve Adams: Well, no, not primarily. Schools and then public events like, uh-uh, African American Family Reunion in Washington, D.C. is where the bulk of it comes from.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: And, uh, the Foundation does a-a lot of work across the country in speaking to—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: - uh, educational and civil rights organizations about the case.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, that partnership between the Brown Foundation and the Park Service unit has been very positive.
Steve Adams: Oh, yes. Very positive.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When you opened in 2—what—first of all, what is the projected date for opening in 2003?
Steve Adams: Uh, May 17th.
Oloye Adeyemon: And then the grand opening is gonna be the 50th anniversary, uh, May 17th, 2004.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: What will you do differently between May 17th, 2003, and after your grand opening? Will it-will you-will you basically be open and fully operative-op-operating fully in 2003, and you’ll simply have a-a-a-a special event, or will there be a-an increase in-in your ability to, uh, to receive the public after the grand opening?
Steve Adams: Well, the, uh-a-a-assuming that our, uh, operating base has increased to allow us to open in 2003, what we’ll do is we’ll-we’ll be establishing, uh, the basic services, uh, getting to know the, uh, various systems in-in the building, not only the maintenance systems, but the-the interpretive systems, and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Getting it—you're running and-and getting the kinks out.
Steve Adams: Right.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: And learning how to operate it and how to maintain it and those sorts of things.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you said should that happen. Um, would one of the reasons that that might be delayed be, uh, budgetary, uh, problems in, you know, in-in, uh, with Congress not-not having the money to allocate-to-to appropriate at that time, or not choosin’ to appropriate it because of maybe, uh, economic conditions or whatever?
Steve Adams: Yeah. That’s-that's all up to Congress whether or not they appropriate it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So, then this is something that has to be, um, continuously addressed. It’s not-it’s not just somethin’ you can sit back and relax and say it’s all done.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see. And the Park Service is not in the position to promote itself or to lobby for itself.
Steve Adams: That is correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, you're kind of dependent on, uh, you know, the Congressional enthusiasm and grassroots enthusiasm for what you're doin’.
Steve Adams: That’s correct.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, w-with, uh, taking-taking—assuming that-that all of that’ll go smoothly, uh, 2004 will be a year when you will, um-not only will you have that g-grand opening but there may even be some changes in-in adjustments or whatever in some of your exhibits because of surveys you’ve done and that type of thing. You-you feel that you can, you know, maybe improve in what you, um, do durin’ 2003.
Steve Adams: Well, the exhibits will be fairly set when they’re installed, uh, before May of 2003. And there may be some finetuning and there may be some other programmatic things that we develop.
Oloye Adeyemon: You may add some programs and—
Steve Adams: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: - because of requests. I see.
Steve Adams: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, with the opening and the future, uh, what is it that, uh, the Park Service, uh, what is the key message that the Park Service is wanting, uh, people to get from this site?
Steve Adams: It’s to understand, uh, what the case was all about, understand the, uh, all of the historical context, uh, for the background of the case and un-and to understand how it currently impacts, uh, American life and-and, uh, people all over the world and understanding all of that, what we’re going to hope is that people who come get a sense of their role and responsibility in, uh, participating in democratic society, supporting, uh, the-the human rights of the citizens of not only A-America but the citizens of the world. And that, uh, that they-they take a personal responsibility to, uh, treat other people the way they should be treat-treated and-and be inclusive and-and, uh, you know, in their work and-and, uh, those sort of things.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What do you feel is the ultimate, uh, impact of this story, uh, the changes that took place in the country, uh, because of these actions, and do you feel that it has, uh, fulfilled that potential, or is there a message in this story or a-a-a-a dream that people who might have been involved in these actions had that’s yet to be fulfilled?
Steve Adams: Well, you know, I guess an analogy would be that if you think of segregation and all of the socioeconomic things that America did to, uh, continue to build segregation and continue it, if you think of segregation as a dam and behind the dam you have all kinds of folks, not-not only people of color but-but, uh, poor European Americans also, people bottled up behind that dam unable to get downstream to, uh, not only the opportunities for a decent education but also all of the things that a decent education, uh, represents in terms of, uh, the-you know, the ability to have a decent home and send your kids to a-to a decent school. You know, the ability to take, uh, full part in American society and the American dream. Some of the basic fundamental things such as, you know, the-the-the right to-to sign a contract. All of those things, if you think of Brown v. Board of Education, uh, although there were-were some small holes punched in that dam-in that dam before the 1954 decision, if you think of Brown as the, uh, the thing that finally broke that dam open and allowed so many more people to participate in American-fully participate in American society, then I think you can begin to see the-the scope of the accomplishment, because it wasn’t—a-and I don't think the NAACP, uh, for a moment, was thinking only about what impact this would have on education. I think they knew, and I think it was their strategy all along, that, uh, you know, if you can-if you can beat segregation in the schools, then as-as our film says, you can beat it anywhere.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And so, you know, if we look at—we don't wanna place too much burden, if you will, on Brown v. Board of Education because it was one tool out of very many. It was, uh, you know, maybe the beginning of the end of segregation.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And as we move forward through time, you know, there’s still some-still parts of that dam that are there, and there’s still some people bottled up behind it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Steve Adams: And so, uh, you know, we need to look at-at other ways of, uh, getting people to-to the point where they-they can participate fully. Now, it’s-it’s very true and it’s very problematic, still, that, uh, we don't quite have this education thing figured out because of the de facto segregation. Uh, but i-if we look at Brown a-in it’s proper perspective as a very large tool that helped to tear down a very large part of segregation, and we just need to keep in mind that-that we should have learned some lessons from that and continue to go forward and-and work on the problems that-that still remain.
Oloye Adeyemon: I wanna thank you very much for all your time. It actually ended up being a longer interview than I had anticipated, but, um, as you’ve pointed out, it’s a lot of, um, detail in this process that the Park Service follows. But I think that, uh, although it’s, uh, rather technical, um, there will be a lot of people who will, uh, gain something that weren’t look-we-we-were not coming to, uh, the collecting looking for that, but I think it’ll be very valuable because, um, there are a lot of people that really don't understand that process very well and, you know, may even themselves, um, be involved in some commemorative, uh, effort that, um, you know, will benefit from-from this information. But I think that, uh, this also an important part of this history because 50 years from now, people will look back and wonder how some of the, uh, you know, commemorative efforts got from Point A to Point B.
Steve Adams: Yeah, and then a-kind of a follow-up comment on that is that there are still a couple of, uh, fairly major, uh, research documents that have not been completed.
Oloye Adeyemon: That you're doing?
Steve Adams: At for-for, uh, Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Now, this-this would include the project that we’re working on now.
Steve Adams: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: This-this project will not only be available to researchers in each of the communities but it also will-will-will-and will be available in Kansas, but it’s also going to be useful to you in your exhibit development and education and curriculum and so on.
Steve Adams: That—well, the-the-the two documents that I wanna mention here, o-one is, uh, a legislative history—
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Steve Adams: - which starts at the very beginning and-and, uh, lays out documents all of the decisions and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.
Steve Adams: - the, uh, the thought processes at the time as to how it became a part of the National Park System, what Congress was thinking.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Steve Adams: The other one is the administrative history, and that’s where, uh, we-we document, uh, you know, who-who the first staff people were, and what—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Good.
Steve Adams: - they were trying to accomplish.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, then some of the things that we touched on in this interview, people who are interested will be able to get further information on those subjects.
Steve Adams: Right. When those-when those documents are completed, we—
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s good.
Steve Adams: - install them. Those aren’t even scheduled yet.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Well, thank you very much.
Steve Adams: Well, you're welcome.
Oloye Adeyemon: We really appreciate it. And I’ll be talkin’ with ya soon.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, Oloye. Thanks.
Oloye Adeyemon: Bye-bye.
Steve Adams: Bye now.
[End of CT-2001-NPS-001_02]
Description
Adams joined the National Park service where he served as a Division Manager, called ‘chief’ ranger at the time, for San Antonio Missions National Historical Park, and then Padre Island National Seashore before becoming the superintendent of Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site, which is now a National Historical Park. Adams provides administrative insights and interpretive history of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historical Park.
Date Created
11/09/2001
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