Audio
Oral History Interview with Constance Sawyer Pt. 3
Transcript
Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v. Board Oral History Collection, Brown v. Board of Education, Topeka, court case interviews. Interviewee: Mrs. Constance Sawyer—Miss Constance Sawyer. Interviewer: Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted at the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site in Topeka, Kansas, on September 18, 2001. These interviews are made possible from the Brown v. Board of Education Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the Summer of 2001 as part of the Brown v. Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History Project.
Miss Sawyer, um, we had previously interviewed you, uh, in connection with the school conditions.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: At this time, we wanna focus our attention on information that you have about the court case that came from you, your personal connection to the story, or through, um, what you were told by relatives and others who you knew—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - who were directly involved with it. And when I say that, um, I’m including, um, developments that took place early on—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the NAACP’s struggle—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, to, uh, bring about integration in Topeka.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, some of the things that, you know, happened in connection to schools and some of the things that happened, uh, in other areas of life because, as I understand what you said, the NAACP played an important role—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - um, in Topeka, and it coordinated, among other things, the Brown v. Board case.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, first, I’d like to, um, talk about your grandpa—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and others—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - during his period of involvement with the NAACP. We’ll talk a little bit about that—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - period when it was founded, what you’ve heard and know about that.
Constance Sawyer: Yes. Well, maybe I should say that my grandfather came here in 1887 from Missouri. He had studied law for one year. He was invited here by—invited here by his uncle, uh, to, uh, take a position in Topeka Public Schools, but he wanted to continue his studies in law for another year, which he did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did he actually join the public school system?
Constance Sawyer: He joined the pubic school system in 1888, after studying law at Washburn College, you know, like for the, uh, year, and, um, so he became a teacher and, um, uh, later, a school principal at Douglas School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Is that also where he taught?
Constance Sawyer: Uh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: At Douglas?
Constance Sawyer: At Douglas. Well, he taught at other schools, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Well, where was Douglas located at that time?
Constance Sawyer: Well, Douglas was a school, um, located at 11th and Jewel.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, I had heard that the—Douglas was, uh—had another location, uh, somewhere on Kansas Avenue, but I don’t know if that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Prior to - to the point when your grandfather taught there?
Constance Sawyer: Uh, it could be, but I just don’t know, and, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: What he teach?
Constance Sawyer: Um, I don’t know what grades. It—this was elementary school, you know, and, um, uh, he - he taught, um, my cousin, who lived to be 106, 3—and 3 months, um, at Madison School, which was a school that existed since she was born in 1885, uh, here. Uh, so that school certainly existed, uh, in the latter part of the century when he began teaching.
Oloye Adeyemon: Madison and Douglas both would’ve existed then.
Constance Sawyer: Uh, he taught at—he taught at Madison, taught at Douglas. I think he also taught—yes, he did. He taught at Monroe as well.
Oloye Adeyemon: So Monroe would’ve also, uh, existed during that time.
Constance Sawyer: Yes, uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now this was an earlier Mon - Monroe School.
Constance Sawyer: An earlier Monroe, that’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: So was the new Monroe School built at the same location?
Constance Sawyer: At, uh—at the same—just the position on the—on the land was different, um, but, um, built at the same location in 1926.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: And you talked in the school interview about what happened in ’26 that led to the—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - uh, opening of schools.
Constance Sawyer: Oh, yes. Yes. This was after he had died.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm. So his - his, uh—he - he was born - born in 1867, uh, from a father who had, uh, been stolen from, uh, um, uh, Madagascar—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - and, uh, who was on a railroad platform with his mother when he was four. This was his father—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - um, my great-grandfather, uh, when he was four years old, looking at some barrels with red markings—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - and he was accused by a slaveholder, um, of trying to read. He—in fact, he hit him over the head, uh, this four-year-old—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - for looking at those red markings—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - accusing him of trying to read. And, uh, so, I guess he got the idea reading was important because he did learn to read. He was in slavery in Missouri.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, he became a Baptist minister and moderator of a Baptist church in Missouri—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - and, uh, helped to found the college in Sedalia, Missouri for Black youth, but the conditions were so poor that two of his daughters whom he sent there became ill, and, uh, one died as a result. And they moved then the college to Kansas City, Missouri. It was known as the, uh, Western Baptist College. Uh—
Constance Sawyer: Uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Where was it in Kansas?
Constance Sawyer: In - in Missouri—Kansas City, Missouri. Uh, um, one of my former neighbors told me, a year ago, that he had taught there—
Oloye Adeyemon: From Sedalia to Kansas City.
Constance Sawyer: It was moved. It moved from Sedalia, Missouri to Kansas City, Missouri, and, uh, this neighbor had taught at that college in the early ’40s, so it still existed at that time. I haven’t checked to see if it does now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So this - this—
Constance Sawyer: Um, so it’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: - was an effort in terms of education—
Constance Sawyer: Uh, but it was very early.
Oloye Adeyemon: - for Blacks starting before your grandfather.
Constance Sawyer: Oh, yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: It started with his father.
Constance Sawyer: Yes. And, uh, so my grandfather, uh, would frequently say, uh, that we have to uplift the people because he was, uh, the first general—generation out of slavery, you see. And, um, and you see why the study of law was terribly important.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now did you say that he came with a year of law—
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - from Missouri, or did he get his year of law—
Constance Sawyer: His year of law—
Oloye Adeyemon: - here at Washburn?
Constance Sawyer: No, his first year of law was at Drake.
Oloye Adeyemon: That’s where it was, um—
Constance Sawyer: This would be Iowa.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: Um, but he made the mistake of joining the Christian Church, and with his father being a Baptist minister, that wasn’t too nice.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And his father refused to send him back.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: So he couldn’t raise enough money - money to take himself back.
Oloye Adeyemon: And when you say Christian Church, you’re referring to a denomination called the—
Constance Sawyer: The Christian denomination, right. And, uh, um, so his uncle, his mother’s brother, invited him to come to Topeka, since he couldn’t raise the money to go back there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, so that’s the reason he did the second year at, uh, Washburn College.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do he ever—
Constance Sawyer: Washburn—what is now Washburn University was then Washburn College.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Did he every apply to the bar?
Constance Sawyer: Not that I know of, um, but he, um, uh, I suspect, got married kind of quickly there because I’m told that my grandmother spotted him when he first arrived in town and decided that was it. [Laughs] And so he took a position teaching in 1888—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - probably because of that reason.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, um, I’m—um, with the—his - his, uh, drive to uplift the people, it’s not surprising then that, uh, he was a leader, not only politically, a civic leader, um, a - a businessman, and, uh, as well as - as a teacher. He was called Professor Sawyer, as many, uh, of those, uh, teachers were at that time, and, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: What was his political, uh, involvement?
Constance Sawyer: Well, be in the Republican Party, of course, at that time.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: But, you know, trying to get people to participate, organize—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - uh, be a part of the political scene, as well as—
Oloye Adeyemon: With the small population of Blacks, were there—was - was the Black population in Topeka ever successful in getting any, uh, people elected to office here locally—
Constance Sawyer: Well—
Oloye Adeyemon: - during that time?
Constance Sawyer: I - I don’t know, uh, as far as the city is concerned, but there was a - a man in the 1800s named McKay who became the, um, uh, state auditor of the state government.
Oloye Adeyemon: Where was he from? What part of the state?
Constance Sawyer: Um, this was here in Topeka, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: He was from the Topeka area?
Constance Sawyer: He—yes, but he later, I think, moved to Oklahoma. But, um, in - in more recent years, his daughter, who was living in Chicago, has died and was brought here and buried—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - at the site, uh, Topeka Cemetery where he is also buried.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: But, um, in fact, there’s a portrait of him in, uh, the state capitol painted by a, uh, African American artist—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - who I think lives in Kansas City now.
Oloye Adeyemon: What type of city involvement did he do?
Constance Sawyer: Uh, well, there - there, uh, was a, uh—a group of men, professional and businessmen called the Bachelors and the Benedicts. This was an organization to - to, um, try to, you know, pro - produce this kind of, uh, uh, participation in the community. Um, he, uh, helped to found a Saturday evening literary society, uh, uh, various kinds of leadership, active, uh, in the church, in - in the, um, political party, in organizing the NAACP. And then, see, he was one of the founders of the NAACP, uh, who, um, received the charter here in Topeka in, uh, 1913. They had been working on it earlier, you know, in 1912, obviously.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, how - how, um, long would that have been after the founding of the national office when they were—
Constance Sawyer: Well, the - the, um, national, um, organization, I believe, was organized in 1911, but it—in 1909, there was the Niagara movement.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, so that that organization was going on from about 1909.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Did your grandfather know W. E. B. Du Bois?
Constance Sawyer: I - I understand from my aunt that he did, and, uh—and debated with Du Bois, and - and, um—and Booker T. Washington.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, you can see the evidence of, uh, influence of both Booker T. Washington and - and W. E. B. Du Bois here because there was a school formed, uh, owned by the Baptist Church called, uh—KVS, uh, was one of the names in my time, but prior to that—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was, uh—were those initials, KVS?
Constance Sawyer: Kansas Vocational, uh, School. Um, but the—prior to my time, I understand that it was called, um, Kansas Educational Center or something of that sort. Uh, then I may not have it exactly right, um, but, uh, a friend of mine who’s still living, uh, her father was a farmer at Carbondale, and he was a very big supporter of this new form of Kansas, uh, Vocational School. Uh, my aunt, at a young age, um, taught, uh, physical education there, and, uh, now, this father of this friend came here and helped build the state capitol. He came out of Maryland.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, then, uh, when he finished his work at the capitol, he, uh, remodeled a couple of houses here, and, uh, traded them for a farm at Carbondale which stayed in their family for 100 years. It was called the Foster Farm. So these people are all kind of intwined. Uh, for instance, we belonged to the same AME Church, St. John AME.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Uh, this - this friend of mine.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, uh, so that—and then the - the other push for the more rounded education was definitely in the realm of my grandfather. Uh, he had a library in his home, and Miss Mamie Williams loved to - to, uh, read there. In fact, uh, that’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, they were neighbors.
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And she was a—
Constance Sawyer: She—
Oloye Adeyemon: - early teacher—
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - who now has a magnet school named after her.
Constance Sawyer: Yes. She came from—with her family from Greenville, North Carolina, when she was 12 years old, and they lived next door, south of the—of the Sawyer house.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, and this is was in an area of the city that sometimes was referred as the Fairgrounds, one of the oldest sections?
Constance Sawyer: Well, the Fairgrounds is west of that. The—this section is called South Topeka.
Oloye Adeyemon: It’s called South Topeka.
Constance Sawyer: Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: Uh, and the Fair—
Oloye Adeyemon: But it’s close to the—
Constance Sawyer: The Fairgrounds is, you know, about—it’s on Topeka Boulevard.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Constance Sawyer: So that’s about three blocks or four—
Oloye Adeyemon: But - but this area of the city—
Constance Sawyer: - northwest.
Oloye Adeyemon: - was one of the areas that saw an early Black settlement because, during the exodus years, people would come in by train to that area.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And they settled in that general area, so this - this was a historically Black section of Topeka that they lived in.
Constance Sawyer: Yes. This - this would be, um, close to that, but some of these people arrived before the exodus.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, so the block in which, uh, my grandfather, uh, built the house, which was a one-story house at first, and then, later, as the kids got older, they helped to build the second story—
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Constance Sawyer: - uh, that block is full of homes built by, um, people who were involved in the NAACP. For instance, at the end of the block, on the same of the street, at 17th, is the home of a father of, um, attorney William Bradshaw, who was, um, um, the legal redress committee chairman, um, during the Graham case. And so, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Would he—would he have been involved earlier during that early period himself, Attorney Bradshaw?
Constance Sawyer: With it—not Attorney Bradshaw. He would be too young. Well, I’m not sure how - how old he was then, but, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Who are some of those that you are aware were involved in the early stages when it was founded?
Constance Sawyer: Okay. Mrs. Julie Roundtree was the secretary, uh, but I don’t know where she lived, and, um, oh, some of the other names I can’t come up with right now.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So, during that early period when it was first founded, um, and up until your grandfather’s death in 1920—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: What were some of the things that they did, um, to bring about changes?
Constance Sawyer: Okay. Well, you know, involved in the, um, national organization of the NAACP were, uh, people from different various, uh, sources, one of them, Jane Addams of Hull House, and, uh, uh, Mary Ovington White, and all - all these people, including W. E. B. Du Bois.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Um, so it wasn’t surprising when I learned that, um, Senator Arthur Capper then was the president of that, um, uh, branch, Tope—the first Topeka branch, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Can you explain who he is?
Constance Sawyer: Okay. He - he was a publisher of the, um, uh, Topeka State Journal. Um, he, uh, published many, uh, books and magazines, and he had a publishing company. Uh, he was—
Oloye Adeyemon: He was White.
Constance Sawyer: Yes, he was White.
Oloye Adeyemon: And he was a state senator.
Constance Sawyer: Uh, he was a U.S. senator—
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes.
Constance Sawyer: - from Kansas.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah.
Constance Sawyer: He was Government of the State of Kansas.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: So, being a political, um, leader, uh, of national importance, um, seemed a little—you know, that it wasn’t surprising that he would be a person contacted to help organize this - this branch.
Oloye Adeyemon: And he played what—he served in what position?
Constance Sawyer: Like what?
Oloye Adeyemon: He was—he served what position?
Constance Sawyer: The senator?
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes, with the NAACP.
Constance Sawyer: He was president.
Oloye Adeyemon: And was that during the time when your grandfather was vice president?
Constance Sawyer: Yes. Uh, see, so that - that, um, founding organization was president, Senator, uh, Capper. Uh, now, my grandfather was elected, uh, chairman of the executive committee, and under the bylaws at that time, that person also served as vice president.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And with the, uh, uh—Senator Capper being involved in many pursuits, including running for office, uh, it fell to my grandfather to really—
Oloye Adeyemon: Run the operation?
Constance Sawyer: - um, do the work. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, given the - the - the strength of the Klan—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - during those years, how did being involved in NAACP affect Senator Capper’s political career in Kansas?
Constance Sawyer: Well, I wouldn’t know how it affected his, uh, political, uh—affected his political career because his political career, uh, from my point of view, appeared to be quite strong, and, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Would he have then—would he have preceded the—his time in office would’ve preceded the time when the Klan—
Constance Sawyer: Was rising?
Oloye Adeyemon: - ran someone for governor? That was after his time?
Constance Sawyer: Yes. Uh-huh. Now, um, Senator Capper, um, used to celebrate his birthday every year with a, um, uh, picnic at Ripley Park, you know, with - with all kinds of entertainment and ice cream cones and all of that sort of thing. And this was something that he did for the children. He also, uh, sponsored a Capper Crippled Children’s, um, uh, Hospital which still exists. And, um, so he did a lot to, um, be active, uh, and participated in the community, even though he had served at the national level, uh, but served as governor and all - all of that, and so, uh, uh, from my point of view, I - I don’t see that the Klan stopped it any.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now—
Constance Sawyer: But, um, uh, his - his position in helping to found the NAACP, I think, was important, and it may be that, uh, this was the first branch formed in Kansas because some of the notes I found in the, um, uh, records in the Library of Congress, um, said, um—in fact, my grandfather may have written that note—said that other - other towns were wanting to have branches. So it - it made me feel that this was the first branch, and they were seeing, uh, other interest growing in - in the state.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. I asked, um, you know, about, you know, how that impacted his career because, from what I understand, the Klan got very, very strong in Kansas at one point.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: But, I guess, the other part of it is, which seems a little, um, interesting, is, uh, the degree to which Topeka was a segregated society—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and to have a leading public official—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - involved with the NAACP—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Then the question that I would next ask is: During the years that he was there, was the NAACP pushing for changes in the society he represented?
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Or did that come later?
Constance Sawyer: Um, I - I think there were people worried about what the NAACP was doing and, uh, what effect it was going to bring because I saw one letter that somebody wrote to Senator Capper about an organi—a political organization that was having a meeting, and, uh, they were objecting to, um, the NAACP being a part of that. And he says, uh, that he knows these people very well, and he was sure they wouldn’t be a part of that. Well, my - my feeling was—at that point, as I was reading those things, was that this man was, uh, being used to control these African Americans.
Oloye Adeyemon: The NAACP. I - I wondered about that.
Constance Sawyer: Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, yeah, he was also putting forth a soothing voice into the community—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - as a kind of protective thing too.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Because, obviously, he was not hindering my grandfather.
Oloye Adeyemon: Absolutely.
Constance Sawyer: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: But, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: So it - it - it might’ve served as an advantage in one sense in that it sanctioned the NAACP to an extent.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm. Uh-uh. Um, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So was there any, um, court case or, um, any negotiations with the city or others that took place prior to your grandfather’s death that might have—might - might be, um, noted as - as, you know, one of the earliest efforts of the NAACP—
Constance Sawyer: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to bring about change? I’m speaking again about the period up to 1920.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was there anything that you know of that, well, any rule—uh, law that was overturned or any - anything was integrated as a result of this?
Constance Sawyer: Um, okay. Um, I do know that, um, my grandfather lobbied in the state legislature to prevent the, um, law being passed to require, uh, high schools in cities of the second class to have segregated high schools for, uh, I believe they called, colored children.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right, ’cause that was something that had not been on the books in Kansas up until that point.
Constance Sawyer: No, but there was a law on the books requiring cities of the first class, such as Kansas City—
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - to have these—
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Constance Sawyer: - separate schools.
Oloye Adeyemon: And was he successful?
Constance Sawyer: Yes. They stopped that.
Oloye Adeyemon: He stopped it.
Constance Sawyer: Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right.
Constance Sawyer: Now, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: So that’s one of the things—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - that specifically can be seen, uh, not only in terms of its link to Brown v. Board—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but, also, the NAACP’s link as an organization—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to the effort—
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - to bring that case to trial.
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, now, one of the other things he did, um—I’m getting these through my aunt, of course—um—
Oloye Adeyemon: This is—this is from conversation with your aunt. You just talked to, uh—
Constance Sawyer: Yes, um, uh, there was, I guess—
Oloye Adeyemon: - to then his sister, your grandfather’s sister.
Constance Sawyer: My, uh, no—
Oloye Adeyemon: I mean your father’s—
Constance Sawyer: It’s my father’s sister. She was—
Oloye Adeyemon: Your father’s sister, your grandfather’s daughter—
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - was telling you about the things your grandfather—
Constance Sawyer: Yes, uh-uh. Uh, one of the things was, a man from Arkansas was, uh, raising cotton, and he was tryin’ to get his cotton, um, uh, sold on the market, and then—
Oloye Adeyemon: He lived in Arkansas?
Constance Sawyer: Uh, a man—a man from Arkansas named Hilt—
Oloye Adeyemon: Was growing cotton.
Constance Sawyer: - was growing cotton in Arkansas—
Oloye Adeyemon: In Arkansas.
Constance Sawyer: - and trying to market his cotton. And they were trying to cheat him and steal his cotton from him.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: And so they were, uh, after him, and the man escaped to Kansas. And Arkansas was trying to extradite him back to Arkansas, and my grandfather was able to block that and prevent his being extradited.
Oloye Adeyemon: Through the NAACP?
Constance Sawyer: As an officer of the NAACP.
Oloye Adeyemon: As an officer. This is—okay, with that.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm. Um, now those were two things—
Oloye Adeyemon: Two of them. Right.
Constance Sawyer: - that she told me about.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right, so, obviously—
Constance Sawyer: But, of course, he was a very busy man being, uh, a civic leader, a teacher, a school principal, a businessman. You see, in the summers, when school was out, then he was a huckster.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, for this—
Constance Sawyer: He had a horse-drawn, uh, wagon where he sold, um, fresh vegetables—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: - uh, through the community.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. With the, uh—in - in talking with you, uh, I believe that you indicated that your family was involved with the, uh, fraternal masons, um, or Eastern Stars. Is that correct?
Constance Sawyer: Um, oh, yes, Eastern Star, and - and the - the Prince Hall Masons and things like that. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, because when you talked about, um, the role of the church, I got the impression before we started the interview that the - the fraternal orders played an important role, not just such as the Masons and Eastern Stars—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - but even some of the sororities and fraternities—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - college fraternities and sororities.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was your grandfather or grandmother involved in any of that?
Constance Sawyer: Well, another grandfather was—
Oloye Adeyemon: On your mother’s side.
Constance Sawyer: - was involved on my, uh, mother’s father’s line—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - was involved with the, um, uh, lodge or - or the Prince Hall Masons.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they—
Constance Sawyer: And - and his children were.
Oloye Adeyemon: Did they play—did the lodges play any role, and did they work closely with the NAACP?
Constance Sawyer: Well, I - I do know that in my life, the lodges were, uh, supportive financially—
Oloye Adeyemon: Of the NAACP?
Constance Sawyer: - to what became, uh, Brown v. the Board.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see.
Constance Sawyer: I don’t know, um, you know, what their activities were. You - you know, uh, in these days, people coming out of slavery had nothing to support them, so the struggle was really to find a way to sustain—
Oloye Adeyemon: Sure.
Constance Sawyer: - their lives and their - their, um—in building institutions and organizations and all of that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: So one of the things the lodge did was provide kind of an insurance policy. I learned through Miss Williams that, uh, by her keeping her, uh, lodge dues up and - and keeping close to the lodge, that there was a death benefit for her.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, that was terribly important, you know, uh, because, um, uh—and - and - and - and in addition to the lodge, uh, providing this kind of insurance for people, there were, uh, morticians that developed. But, of course, uh, in the early days, uh, uh, people had to prepare their own dead, and - and even into my time, uh, that the dead, uh, in their casket, uh, were displayed at the home prior to - to burial. And, uh, so, out of, um, the 1800s, came a - a - a mortician named Stonestreet, who was active, uh, through the ’30s. I think that he, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: He was one of the first African American, uh, morticians?
Constance Sawyer: Well, it would be early, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Um, uh, that, in fact, their mortuary, I believe, was, um, on Quincy, um, somewhere close to, um, well, where the City Hall is now or the county courthouse is. That would be, uh, around that - that block of Eighth, uh, to Sixth that originally was—
Oloye Adeyemon: And you mentioned his name because he - he and others such as himself would’ve been supporters of the NAACP?
Constance Sawyer: They may have been. I just don’t know all the people who were, but I do know the Stonestreets, um, were founders of Calvary Baptist Church, and - and their daughter, one of their daughters, lived two doors from me during my lifetime.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was Cal—you said Calvary?
Constance Sawyer: Calvary Baptist Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was that a site of NAACP meetings?
Constance Sawyer: I’m not sure, but, you know, the meetings went around to different churches.
Oloye Adeyemon: To your knowledge, were there ever meetings held there?
Constance Sawyer: I can’t say. Um—
Oloye Adeyemon: You know, you—
Constance Sawyer: They met at Shilo Baptist, uh, uh, sometimes, so, um, I’m not sure.
Oloye Adeyemon: St. John and AME?
Constance Sawyer: St. John, AME, and—
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember other churches that—
Constance Sawyer: - Lane Chapel.
Oloye Adeyemon: Lane Chapel?
Constance Sawyer: Uh, Seventh Day Adventist. Uh, that was then, uh, in the 900 block on College.
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember the name of it?
Constance Sawyer: They were—
Oloye Adeyemon: Do you remember the name of the—
Constance Sawyer: It was called the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: That was the name of it?
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And Lane Chapel—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - was also AME?
Constance Sawyer: No, it was, uh, CME.
Oloye Adeyemon: CME.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Um, and—
Constance Sawyer: And then later, when M. L. Burnett became the - the president, then all the meetings were held at Church of God on Lane, or the Lane—
Oloye Adeyemon: He was—he was a member of that church.
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What is your sense from that period, or any other period, of how involved, um, college fraternities and sororities were in supporting either the NAACP or the efforts to improve education in Topeka?
Constance Sawyer: Well, of course, the efforts to improve education were constant, and, in fact, my grandfather’s oldest daughter, Annabelle, began, uh—got a special—by, uh, a special permit, began teaching in her senior year in high school, which was permitted at that time. And so, when her youngest brother, Eugene Sawyer, went to Monroe School for kindergarten, his - his very first day of school, his sister, Annabelle Sawyer, took him money and took him over to Monroe to go to school.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, so that the, uh—the march for education was marching into another generation already.
Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, okay.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, uh, they - they, uh, uh—as far as, uh, uh, sororities and fraternities, I do know that in the ’20s, when many of these people were in college, uh, at Washburn—now, my - my Aunt Annabelle went, uh, to Emporia at first, but she, um—her sister, Alta, uh, went to, uh, KU. Also, her sister, Nathella, went to KU, and they were all—and Annabelle went to Washburn, so they were all active in forming the, uh, Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority.
Oloye Adeyemon: The actual filing of it?
Constance Sawyer: Beg your pardon?
Oloye Adeyemon: The actual filing of the, um, Kappa’s—
Constance Sawyer: Um, not the national, but—
Oloye Adeyemon: But on campus?
Constance Sawyer: - but - but, you know, making—establishing it on these campuses, and, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: What year was she enrolled in Washburn?
Constance Sawyer: Well, Miss Mamie Williams was there, also, so this is somewhere in the ’20s. The ’20s, um, that was—
Oloye Adeyemon: And the university system in Kansas was integrated?
Constance Sawyer: Yes. Uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What, uh, were some of the historically Black schools in Kansas? I understand Western University in Kansas City existed early on in 18—late 1800s. Were there other, uh, schools?
Constance Sawyer: Yeah, the Western University, um, uh, was a school of the AME Church.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes.
Constance Sawyer: Now, though, but let me tell you this.
Oloye Adeyemon: Were there other Black colleges in the state?
Constance Sawyer: No. Uh, uh, and the—and - and that’s in, uh, Kansas City, Kansas.
Oloye Adeyemon: Yes.
Constance Sawyer: Um, the, um, AME Church first sent a missionary to Leavenworth City in 1854 when the Kansas-Nebraska Act was signed.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, they built a mission there, uh, to help slaves escape from Missouri, across the Missouri River there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: That was in Quindaro? In the Quindaro area?
Constance Sawyer: No, Leavenworth City.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, so you’re saying they were just coming—
Constance Sawyer: Quindaro and Kansas City, but this Leavenworth City is—
Oloye Adeyemon: So this would’ve been a little more—from there, a little—a little bit further up the river.
Constance Sawyer: It would be west.
Oloye Adeyemon: West, okay. Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: West, uh-uh. And - and one of my—well, my great-great-grandfather escaped from Kentucky; Fleming County, Kentucky, uh, to Leavenworth City, and—
Oloye Adeyemon: How’d he happen to go in that direction instead of going across to Ohio and going north to Canada?
Constance Sawyer: Well, I don’t know what route he took.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, but he ended up in Leavenworth.
Constance Sawyer: And it may be that the Underground Railroad helped him.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And it was obvious that the - the Kansas territory was a - a - a free area—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - and was going to be seen as a free, uh, because—a, um, area, territory—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - because the Missouri Compromise was holding slavery to the borders of Missouri.
Oloye Adeyemon: Missouri. Um, okay.
Constance Sawyer: Uh, but, um, he had to run for his life to - to, uh—to get there.
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, worked, uh, with a mule team hauling supplies along the river, until after the Civil War.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Then my grandmother was one of his daughters born in 1854, and her sister in 1852, and others—
Oloye Adeyemon: They escaped with him?
Constance Sawyer: No, they were brought in after the Civil War and gathered in Topeka. And then he and his wife, Nancy Lewis Carr—and - and his name was Charles Carr—had a - a son, born free—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: - in Topeka in 1868.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Well, out of all of this were people who helped to found St. John AME Church, that’s now at Seventh and Topeka, but it wasn’t always there.
Oloye Adeyemon: This is your mother’s side of the family.
Constance Sawyer: Now, this is, uh—interestingly enough, um, this comes through my mother’s father’s line, but is also a part of, uh, my - my father’s, uh, mother’s line as well, uh, so the—
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, your father’s father was a member of the Christian Church.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Your father’s mother’s people were members of the AME.
Constance Sawyer: Well, one of those members was a founder of - of the entire A—uh, AME.
Oloye Adeyemon: From your father’s mother’s people.
Constance Sawyer: Yeah.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. I understand.
Constance Sawyer: Yeah, and, um, uh, my father and mother were third, fourth cousins, so you - you start to see the convergence. Don’t you? [Laughs]
Oloye Adeyemon: Hmm. Yes, so bringing it up, uh, in 1920, your grandfather passed.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: And it changed leadership. At what point did your father begin to play a leadership role? I understand he was kinda born into it, but what role did he play in leadership, or what role did he play?
Constance Sawyer: Well, of course, I would only be aware—since I was born in 1932, and I went to kindergarten in 1937, I was only aware of what was happening to me, uh, having to run to keep up with those kids to get into Buchanan School after passing Lowman Hills School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Um, that I was having to stay with my great-grandmother. This is on my mother’s line, mother’s maternal line.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: Whose house was directly across the street from Buchanan School.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And since I had to be there five days of the week, of course, they would come over.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.
Constance Sawyer: And, um, uh, they then got petitions together, uh, with other parents to get school buses because these children—I wasn’t the only one running. There were children walking and running for miles.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now let me understand.
Constance Sawyer: It must’ve been about three miles one-way for some kids.
Oloye Adeyemon: This is your father’s mother that you’re staying with.
Constance Sawyer: No, no, no.
Oloye Adeyemon: Your mother’s mother.
Constance Sawyer: No, this is my mother’s—
Oloye Adeyemon: Mother.
Constance Sawyer: - grandmother.
Oloye Adeyemon: Your mother’s grandmother.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: So she was involved with—getting involved with these petitions.
Constance Sawyer: No, not my grandmother. Not my great-grandmother. I’m staying with my great-grandmother.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: That’s my grandmother’s mother, my—so this is on my mother’s maternal line.
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Who is it in your family that’s involved in getting the petitions together?
Constance Sawyer: Getting petitions, that’s my father and my mother.
Oloye Adeyemon: Your father and your mother—
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - are doing this, and they would’ve probably been involved just because they were involved with community efforts, but—
Constance Sawyer: Well, because they had a kid who was, uh, in distress.
Oloye Adeyemon: But they—but even if you had not a child, because of your father’s involvement with the NAACP, he probably would’ve gotten involved anyhow, but because of his child, he took a special interest in this particular case.
Constance Sawyer: Okay. Well, um, I can’t say that he was a member of NAACP, but I suspect he was. I mean, he was raised in the home of the founder, you see, but, um, also, he was raised in the home of a man who says, “We have to uplift the people,” and who was a civic leader.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: Now, how is this man not gonna take action?
Oloye Adeyemon: I understand.
Constance Sawyer: You see [laughs]—
Oloye Adeyemon: So, at that—at this particular point—
Constance Sawyer: Yes. [Laughs]
Oloye Adeyemon: The reason I was sayin’ it is because I know, at some point, he ran for President of the NAACP.
Constance Sawyer: Well, I think he did.
Oloye Adeyemon: But that might’ve been later.
Constance Sawyer: Yes, I think he did.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, but that then—if so, that would’ve been later.
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. At this point—
Constance Sawyer: That would be in the ’40s.
Oloye Adeyemon: He’s younger in life.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: But he’s—and he getting involved in the effort to bring—
Constance Sawyer: Well, he’s - he’s dealing with, uh, survival.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Constance Sawyer: Uh, he now has a wife and a child, and it’s Depression. And I’m born at the very depth of the Depression, and he’s struggling to get work. Not only that, but his father dying as young as he did left his mother without support, and even though my aunt tried to convince him and his brother, Charles, not to leave high school, they did anyway ’cause they thought they had to support their mother. And they became apprentices - apprentices to the Santa Fe shops, and they did all kinds of things.
Oloye Adeyemon: Santa Fe Rail - Railroads—
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - which is a major employer here in Topeka—
Constance Sawyer: Yes, right, to - to earn money.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and did employ Blacks in those positions.
Constance Sawyer: Some—in some, uh-huh.
Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.
Constance Sawyer: And, uh, so he didn’t finish high school until 1930. He’s in the 1930, uh, um, annual, and he, I understand, went—
Oloye Adeyemon: So he went back to high school.
Constance Sawyer: He went to Nebraska to finish his high school work.
Oloye Adeyemon: I see, so now, getting back to the NAACP, because that’s what we’re trying to - to draw a thread up to the Brown case—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Your father and mother signed a petition to get buses.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was this a petition that was being circulated by the NAACP?
Constance Sawyer: My father and mother were circulating it.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you said you don’t know if he was involved with the NAACP at this point, so—
Constance Sawyer: I don’t know. That’s right.
Oloye Adeyemon: So, my question is, what—
Constance Sawyer: But they personally are circulating these invita—these, uh—these petitions.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, so then this is not, to your understanding, an NAACP effort that they’re getting involved with. This is something that they’re doing with other parents.
Constance Sawyer: Uh, it - it—I’m - I’m not knowledgeable of that.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. You can’t say one way or the other.
Constance Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: What—when the petition was signed, or they felt they had sufficient signatures, who did they give that petition to?
Constance Sawyer: Well, it would be to the Topeka school system.
Oloye Adeyemon: So this was not a court case.
Constance Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. What was the Topeka system’s response?
Constance Sawyer: Uh, we got buses in 1938.
Oloye Adeyemon: You got buses. All right. Do you happen to know approximately how many petitions there were in that effort?
Constance Sawyer: No.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, and this is was in 19—
Constance Sawyer: Well, 1937 was—
Oloye Adeyemon: 1937.
Constance Sawyer: - when they made the, um—
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: - petitions, and - and, uh, by ’38, we had the, uh, buses.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.
Constance Sawyer: I was able to stay at home.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. The thing that you would consider to be the next stage—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the fight to change the educational environment for Blacks in Topeka—
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Would it have been something that would’ve been an organized effort, by that time, of the NAACP—
Constance Sawyer: Oh, yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: - or would have continued, as the case was with what occurred with your father, something that might’ve started with parents, you know, taking an active role.
Constance Sawyer: Well, this was NAACP, definitely.
Oloye Adeyemon: The next situation.
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And how much longer—how much later was that? You said, uh, around 1937—
Constance Sawyer: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - for the bus—
Constance Sawyer: Well - well, the buses started in 1938. My father’s dear friend, Raymond Reynolds, was President of the NAACP—
Oloye Adeyemon: At that time.
Constance Sawyer: - and before him had been Elisha Scott, and, uh—
Oloye Adeyemon: Let me back up because we’re gonna have to cut because we - we’re about out of time, and I think maybe we just have enough time to clarify these two things. Elisha Scott, who had been the President of the NAACP at one point—
Constance Sawyer: Yes, and was also—
Oloye Adeyemon: - was the father of Charles and John Scott, who prepared the—
Constance Sawyer: - of Charles, and - and, also, Elisha, Jr., so he had three sons who were lawyers.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right, and Charles and John Scott prepared the brief for the Brown case, the local case—
Constance Sawyer: Well, they—
Oloye Adeyemon: - along with the rest of—
Constance Sawyer: They were all, uh, a part of this. See, when that was being prepared, there was also Greenburg and Carter.
Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Right, I understand.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: But they weren’t local.
Constance Sawyer: Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: Elisha Scott that you mentioned was the father of two of the local lawyers that were involved.
Constance Sawyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Oloye Adeyemon: Now, one other thing you said, you said that, um, the—now, you mentioned two presidents. You mentioned Elisha Scott.
Constance Sawyer: Elisha Scott and—
Oloye Adeyemon: And you said the person that followed him—
Constance Sawyer: The next one was, uh, R. J. Reynolds, Ray—
Oloye Adeyemon: He was—
Constance Sawyer: - Raymond Reynolds.
Oloye Adeyemon: Was he the President of the NAACP when they got the buses or was the president—
Constance Sawyer: He could—he could’ve been.
Oloye Adeyemon: But you know he was, uh—
Constance Sawyer: He was a neighbor of ours and a dear friend.
Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, but he was involved at the state when the next event occurs.
Constance Sawyer: Yes. Yes.
Oloye Adeyemon: And the next event was the Graham case?
Constance Sawyer: Graham case.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. We’re gonna stop—
Constance Sawyer: Now, that was brought by the uncle of the young man in the school system.
Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. We’ll stop there.
Constance Sawyer: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - and pick up with the Graham case—
Constance Sawyer: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: - in the next part of our interview.
Constance Sawyer: Okay.
Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you.
Constance Sawyer: Uh-huh.
Description
Constance Sawyer was born April 5, 1932. Sawyer is the daughter of Daniel Smith Sawyer III, a primary leader in building the Brown v. Board case, and the granddaughter of Nathaniel Sawyer, one of the founders of the NAACP Topeka branch. The interview provides insights into Sawyer's family history, including her parents' professions and their involvement in the NAACP, as well as her own experiences growing up in Topeka during the era of school segregation.
Credit
NPS
Date Created
09/17/2001
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