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Oral History Project - Richmond, John H. 1983 Part 1
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These interviews are presented here in their original form, unmodified, in an effort to preserve and share the history of our park and its surrounding area. The memories, comments, and viewpoints shared by interviewees in the materials of the New River Gorge Oral History Project and related documents do not represent the viewpoints of the National Park Service.
TAPE FORTY-EIGHT
Interview NRGNPP 048
File # NRGNPP 048-T
Mr. John ll. Richmond
Interviewer :
James Worsham
National Park Service
November 14, 1983
(Taped at Hinton Visitor 's Center, New River Gorge National River)
JW: Mr. Richmond, first of all, I'd like for you to give us your full name and current address.
JR: My full name is John Harvey Richmond, but I always sign it on my taxes as J. Harvey.
JW: OK. Now, when were you born?
JR: I was born on December 24, 1907.
JW: 1907? OK. Where were you born?
JR: I was born at Brooks, on the mountain above Brooks. That was the Post Office at that time .
JW: What were your parents' names?
JR: My father's name was John Alec My mother's name was Rachel Elizabeth Meadows, when she married my father.
JW: Now, what type work did your father do?
JR: He was a farmer.
JW: What type crops did he grow?
JR: Oh, just at that time corn and buckwheat and rye Stuff like that, you know, small grain.
JW: Where was he from originally?
JR: My father was raised •there. My grandfather, now, my grandfather came through here from England, from Richmond . When he came through, my father was... he was up a pretty old man when he married my mother. And he was born... he was born 1854, my father was.
JW: Your father was .born in 1854?
JR: 1854. Uh-huh.
JW: And his father, you say, came from England?
JR: He came from England... well, he really came from Richmond. His father, my great—grandfather, John Thomas Richmond, came from England. He originated then from Richmond, VA. Then... established there in Richmond, then came on West and took up this mount... valley land, laying in there from about Brooks and Earksdale, but come all the way to the river and on the mountain. He settled on the mountain up there.
JW: So your father's one of the first settlers there?
JR: One of the first settlers in there. He took up that land. My grandfather, now...it was my grandfather that belonged out there. He took up settlement there.
JW: And you say he was originally from England? No. it's your great—grandfather?
JR: My great—grandfather was from England.
JW: We were talking about some of your early childhood memor ies there, you were telling me about a dry land waterwheel.
JR: Well, they wasn't any mills back in that time, so they had to devise their own. Seer they learned to pound their meal from the Indians then you see So, he decided he would build. the first people on the creek had built a water mill' which the first one was down at Barksdale. above where Bass Lake is, up that... there.
JW: On that side of the river?
JR: Yeah, the first water mill.
JW: At Barksdale?
JR: Yeah, but they wasn't none there at that time, and so my...
JW: This was before that?
JR: Yeah, my grandfather made the dry land water mill.
JW: OK. So there were no gristmills on the river when he came here?
JR: No, no gristmills. The only mill that they knew of then at that time was the Bacon Mill at Talcott on the other side of the river. the Bacon's Mill. That was about it. That was one of the first mills in this area, was the Bacon's Mill on the other side of the river from Talcott.
JW: That's away far away. Do you know what year this would be when he built this dry land waterwheel?
JR: No. It was before... it was before the Civil War.
JW: Oh, really!
JR: Yeah.
JW: When did he move to that area?
JR: Oh, Lord, he came to that area there in. I believe when he came to that mountain there was in 1818 or somewhere along there... when he came to that mountain there
JW: Now this is what they called Chestnut Mountain?
JR: Chestnut Mountain, uh—huh.
JW: Tell me how that wheel was built.
JR: Well, they split that there ...they'd take white oak — we'd call them saplings — but they wasn't just so big, and they would take those saplings and they got a good long tall one and they split that, you see. And they made this round wheel and they made that so they could bend that where you put the spokes in that thing, you know. It was twelve foot in diameter — round. And then, when they got that bent around with the spokes in it, then he taken and he made the steps on that so far up — the same thing as a water cup on a water mill. He made those steps about twelve inches wide, or maybe a little wider. And you bore a hole with an old—time auger and put them in that hoop, you see, his wheel. And then he connected those cranks... posts out of locust. He made this long crank that fit on this wheel, you see, on the edge of this wheel that turned that. And then he connected this other crank here on the short one when he made those burrows there when he cut those rocks and made the hopper, you know, go around that. And you make one of them stationary and the other one that fastened with... you had a kind of a wedge where you wedged it up, you know, to grind your corn. And you cut that out there in furrows. You take and furrow that that fits in the eye, and the furrows there are a little bit wider, and your corn drops down in that and goes on down and you close that up and grinds that meal as fine as you want it. It comes out the other edge of that there in this scoop down here...comes out into a box that they make that meal to come out in. And those... you see that big long one on that big wheel, it makes it turn them burrows, see, when it comes down to that; geared down, it turns them pretty fast, you see. And, when you walk that wheel, after you get that wheel started... actually, you didn't go up the wheel, you just stood there and walked it.
JW: You stood on top of it and walked it to power it.
JR: You just... you had a platform here and you... just like a water mill, you see, you got your spout here and your water comes down and pours into that pocket. When that pocket starts turning down, when they the other one catches the water and the water just keeps pouring. And after it gets on them wheels it gets started, you see, and the weight keeps it a goin’ Well, that's the same way with walkin’ you see. Just kept that wheel going.
JW: And the man that ground his own flour, he did the walking?
JR: He did the walking and the people that come to the mill in that time, people would come for miles and bring their corn or wheat or rye or whatever they had to grind, and each one, you see, would stay until all of their own was ground so they'd walk the mill, you see, to keep the mill a goin'.
JW: So there were not any water mills... why did he choose to build a dry land one rather than going down and build one on a creek?
JR: Well, you see, it was too far and it was a whole lot easier to build one there under that... under that... than it would be to build a water mill. He'd have to build a wheel down there and would have to build a mill on the water. And he figured a walking wheel would be a whole lot. just as good and faster and closer than it would be to go down over that mountain, you see, and whittle out a road; you'd have to go down there and all like that.
JW: How far was it down to the stream?
JR: Oh, down to that what they call Brooks Creek from down off the mountain there, I guess was about three or four miles. Maybe a little bit more.
JW: How many people would come there to have their wheat ground?
JR: Well, about everybody that settled in the country there. He had several sons and they had settled in there in different. had come on back... had some of them settled on back as far as what they used to call the Grimmet Bank on back at Elton Knob and in there and clear around. And some settled on over in on what they called the Ward Bates at the time that they took this land up there...his land. The land went on the other way, on the left. I'm looking from the river side on the farm. What they called the Davy—Dick Line. He went to that line. Well, there was several others that moved in on that bench, you see, below there. And, so they'd come to that closest mill. That was the only one they was in the country. Some of them come five, six, ten miles to get there to that mill.
JW: Was this operational during the Civil War? You don't know when they built it, do you?
JR: They built it before the Civil War. It was in operation up until other mills come in existence.
JW: OK. And they took the business away, more or less?
JR: Yeah. They didn't have no use for that then. They just let it go, you see. Nobody at that time, or even in my early times ever thought about anything such as history, you see. We didn't give that a thought. If it had of been preserved, it could have been preserved.
JW: What’s there now? Anything?
JR: Nothing that I know of, except the last that...but I haven't been there for fifty years and that's been a long time.
JW: Do you know how to get there now?
JR: Yeah. I know how to get there.
JW: Do you think the stones might still be there?
JR: Well, I...they should be. I don't know for sure whether they are or not.
JW: What's there now? I mean, is it just an open field... I mean the last time you were there?
JR: I imagine it's growed up in woods, because people in these.. .other days don' t clean up land much. I imagine it's growed up in woods. Now, there's a Miles Cales that lives out there on the old granddad farm. He might know.
JW: What's his name?
JR: Miles Ward.
JW: Miles Ward?
JR: Uh—huh .
JW: Does he have a phone number? Maybe we could call him.
JR: I don't know whether he has a phone or not. He might have. I really doubt it. He might have, you could look and see.
JW: Did your father ever tell you much about what happened around here during theCivil War?
JR: Well, there's several things that happened around the Civil War Yeah, he used to talk about it. Over on this bench, up here from Barksdale going up Tug Creek, they was a man by the name of Henderson Garten that lived there. And he was a gunsmith and so was my grandfather.
JW: Oh, really. Henderson Gar ten? How do you spell that?
JR: The Garten is G-a-r-t-e-n, Henderson is H-e-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. Henderson Garten. And during the Civil War, they had a… old man Ira Bragg, he lived in there... he had a sow that was missin' and they accused this boy of a steal in' it or kill in' it one. So, they tortured him...they was a big snow on, my father and all says, a big snow about a couple of feet and crusted on top — back in those days it would freeze and crust on it and a lot of people would walk on the snow. And they said they would make that boy cut and carry wood in a big old place and built a big hot fire and they laid him down in front of that fire and laid this log on him and baked his feet into a crust. And took him out there… now this was reports, was facts, wasn't just folkish tales, you know. They took him out there and made him walk on that crust and they twisted a homemade twist of tobaccer in his mouth and they fooled with him that way and tortured him until they got tired of him and they shot him. And after they had shot him, the old sow come in. He hadn't killed her at all.
JW: Dear! How old was this boy?
JR: He was about fifteen, sixteen years old.
JW: What was his name? Do you know?
JR: A Bragg boy. I don't remember now they'd said whose son he was.
JW: Did the family try retaliation?
JR: No. At that day and time, they just, you know.
JW: Was there any military activity around here?
JR: No, just scouts.
JW: How about Thurmond's men?
JR: Some of them had come through that a way. My grandfather on my mother’s side , he was scoutin’ comin' in home and they scouted through there, and he laid down his blanket and his rifle and they come a big snow and snowed him up. When they come through, they missed him.
JW: Was he Union or Confederacy?
JR: I believe... believe he was for the Confederacy. And it snowed him up and they missed him.
JW: So the Union army was out lookin' for him and…
JR: Yeah, and they come through and what they'd do. I heard my grandfather on both sides... they would... some of them was mean on both sides, the Union and the Confederacy, you see. And instead of killin' a cow or hog or something and takin' the whole thing, they would just take it and cut a big slice out of the ham of it, roast it and go on and leave 'em that way. And... well, it was like General Patton out of World War II, old General Patton said that all wars was Hell. Well, wars in that day and time was too. How that the people you'd be surprised just what would go on in a war in your own country, much less in another one.
JW: Do you know any stories that your grandfather might have told you?
JR: He got caught one time, I forgit how he got out of it. He got away from them. He was on the opposite side. Now, I had two grandfathers and I don't remember just which side they was on. One was on the Confederacy and the other one, I believe it was the grandfather on my mother's side was on the Confederate side. And, they'd get in a lot of times... he got away from them and he hid out there on a mountain where he's buried. And when he died, he requested to be buried there in that flat. And it's just... when you go down this little piece, you strike that sandstone and the only way you can dig a grave is just take dynamite and blast it out.
JW: And you had to blast a grave for him?
JR: Almost. Yeah. Uh—huh. And my father's buried there… there's seven there… my uncle's too. But, that's where they buried him there. So, he... my grandfather traded all this mountain land... course that's after the war and everything... he traded all this whole mountain that runs into Brooks around that mountain. I don't know how much land is in that boundary. Traded it to the Foxes. You see, the Foxes is an old family here that settled on the river here...old man Dave Fox and a bunch of them. He traded them that mountain in there to a steer. You know, at that time, a work steer amounted to a whole lot. He traded him out all that boundary of land to a steer.
JW: Traded all of that for one steer?
JR: Yeah, for a steer.
JW: Well, this is fascinating. Mr. Richmond, do you have any brothers and sisters?
JR: All mine's dead but me. I'm the only one of the family.
JW: Do you remember your brothers' and sisters' names?
JR: Oh, yeah. My oldest brother was Alec, Alec Clark; and my next oldest brother was Rufus Blaine; and my next oldest brother was Jonah Joseph; and the next one was Burt; and the next one was Theodore, names after Theodore Roosevelt; and the next one was Henry Jackson; and my baby brother then, besides me, was named Percy Frank.
JW: But you 're the only one left?
JR: I'm the only one livin' of both girls and the boys. They was thirteen of us in the family.
JW: OK. Now the girls.. .do you remember their names?
JR: Well, Bessie was the oldest one; and Lena was the next oldest one; and Ellie was the next one. There were three of them. But the two younger ones died in infancy. So it was Violet and Lizzie, the two baby ones that died.When you're thinking back when you were growing up, we were talking about the dry land watermill, do you have any other special memories of when you were growing up there? Talking about maybe playing down near the river; did you fish much and hunt?
JR: We didn't fish much, hunted aloe. Oh, yeah. Hunted a lot... that was the main thing, huntin'. We'd hunt, possum huntin' and coon huntin'. Yeah, I remember in coon huntin' that my oldest brother and his cousin, Will, they was coon huntin' and they treed those coon. They wasn't too far from home in thig flat between us and the Luther Bragg's. And they stayed up all night with him and burned the tree… they had treed him up a big oak and burned the tree almost down. So, the next morning, they come on in and left it. My mother said to her son, my oldest brother Pete, said, why they isn't no use in let tin' that coon get away. Said, let's go on over there and cut the tree and catch him. So, Will had started home and he heard 'em and he came back and 'til they went over there and cut the tree. And they was three big coons in it. And the dog, he held one of 'em up above the tree. And Pete, he shot the other one. But Will then...he was at the butt of the tree out there and the coon done come through that tree and went down to the creek. And he was about as far as from here to the river down there from my mother at the end of that tree. He got tangled up in that tree and fell and said, “If you hadn't of been in the way, I'd of caught that coon.” (laughter). That was true fact... that was what he said.
JW: So, he tripped over the tree and…
JR: …tripped over the tree.
JW: Ah, trees sometimes get in the way. What type job did you do? What was your earliest job that you had?
JR: Well, most of it was farmin' and timber cuttin'. I started cuttin' timber around for people, me and my brothers, when I was only about twelve years old.
JW: And this was around in the Chestnut Mountain area?
JR: Yeah, around there. And then we got a little older, we cut for people that were millers, you see.
JW: Now, which mill did you cut...
JR: Used to cut for old man John Bowling and different small outfits, you know, in the country. John Bowling run a mill, and, ah...
JW: Where was his mill?
JR: He had a mill settin' in Brooks' Creek.
JW: OK. Now this was steam driven by...
JR: Yeah, old steam bar and a circle saw.
JW: What else...what was your next job, after cutting timber?
JR: Well, then, we was... we'd farm and then harvest time, and then all of us boys would get cradles and people'd call on us in wheat cuttin' time and oats and rye. And we done all kinds of farm work and cleaned up land. We cleaned up all that mountain... actually altogether, we cleaned up around a hundred acres or a hundred fifty acres Out of the woods. Cut into big timber and all. At that time, you couldn't sell timber much, you know. And, back there on the Chestnut Mountain, old man John Bowling had a mill down over into the creek here and that chestnut timber there on that mountain would be worth some thin' today, of course. We cut timber there that he... he split that chestnut log. It took six yokes of oxen to pull half of that log off of that flat.
JW: That was a big log!
JR: Oh, it was big!
JW: How big around would that be?
JR: That tree was about eight foot through.
JW: Eight foot through!? That's a big chestnut.
JR: That's a biq chestnut. And it was big ...all that was big timber in there. A lot of it was cut up and wasted, you know, cause you didn't sell no timber much. And a lot of the oak timber, back in those days when I was a boy, they cut the oak, you know, and would peel it for tanbark and just leave the timber in the woods. Tanbark was in them old stave mills.
JW: What did they, ah…this tanbark came from oak trees. Was this black oak, white oak...?
JR: Different, you see, they had different colors there. The black oak was a darker tan and then you had the red oak. Now the white oak would give you a tan that would tan your leather. Sort of like now, you might call it a wheat color or somethin! And that…maybe a little bit darker than that... the bark... you got the different tans for leather.
JW: Would they cut the tree and then strip the bark off it?
JR: Yeah, they cut the tree down, you see, and you had to peel the tanbark…peelers at that day and time. And, you'd cut that bark in so longer length and then you'd go around with your axe and cut the bark into. And then you 'd take your feet and you'd start it and just peel it off in big hulls, you see. And then they'd haul that bark out...
JW: They'd haul it by what... wagons?
JR: Yeah, they'd haul it after you got it down to the bottom, where you'd get it out of the mountains, they'd just haul it on a half—sled. A half—sled and tie a chain around it and take it out of the mountains.
JW: What do you mean, a half—sled?
JR: Well, that's just two runners about so long... you'd make it out of sour wood... cut sour wood to run along...
JW: About three feet long?
JR: Yeah, and then you'd have this bolted between here and you tied the one end of that, you seer solid on there. The rest of it was just sort of like a log... be draggin' behind it.
JW: The half—sled would be two runners in the front.
JR: Yeah, that was a half—sled.
JW: Now, how would they get them to market?
JR: Well, they would ship it, you see.
JW: On the train, or what?
JR: Yeah, they had a train at that time, you see. And they would ship the tanbark.
How about the bateauxs? Did they ever use that much?
JR: Not too much in our country. They used them in different places. But most bateauxs that they used was, you know, where they went down the river. You know, like this mill you 're showin' there. They used those to bring that timber out of the mountain up there. Now, on down the river ...that old Tuck you were talk in' about there.. .down there on the...
JW: Tuck Richmond.
JR: Yeah. They'd go up in there and people would come through and buy the yellow poplar for furniture. And they would cut that and float it down the river to where they'd get to the railhead back in that time after the railroad had got through there.
JW: Now, have you lived most of your life up there on Chestnut Mountain?
JR: Yeah. I've lived there... on the mountain there. Always, our mail and everything was always down here at Brooks and down at Hinton…we'd come to town on…
JW: So, you farmed most of your life then?
JR: Yeah, till I got to railroadin'.
JW: What did you do for the railroad.
JR: I started for the railroad in the track department as a timekeeper. At that time, in 22, they had extra forces, maybe seventy—five or a hundred men. They had four or five extra forces on the Hinton Division. And, you get a job on that and an old boy that, what they called a timekeeper see that had what they called a cornmisary...a Fitzgerald car on the camp cars. And you had to take care of that, what they called 'Hundred and Twos' and the man that lived there... their board and all come out of that, see, through that Fitzgerald. You kept that and then the foreman would come in and he'd give you then how much track you pulled or how much sealin' you done...that was puttin’ ties in, you see, puttin' sellin' in or how much margin you made, or so forth and so on. You'd take all that down on a big sheet and then, of course, your time sheets...they were made out of two, you see.
JW: So, that pay was based on how much track you layed and how much cross ties you put down... ?
JR: Whatever you did...how much you did, you see, approximately, they would give you.
JW: Wou1d they just take the men's word for it or what?
JR: You just kept see... the foreman would keep all that out.
JW: Oh, the foreman kept it.
JR: Yeah. He kept them and would bring 'em in and turn ‘em in, you see. And, where you were keepin' the time, you'd take all that down on the report and you'd make your reports.
JW: Did you work much up in the Gorge?
JR: Yeah. Up clear through there from Hinton to Handley. That was a Hinton Division.
JW: When was this you were up there?
JR: When I was down through there at that day and time, we'd lay up at Gauley Bridge. That was 1922 and 23.
JW: What was the Gorge like at that time?
JR: Well, it was a whole lot... looked a whole lot better than it does now because it wasn't filthed up at that time. See, all those mines was a runnin'. See, you had a mines from... well, you could start in here in there on Sewell Valley ...a mines there. You go on down to Glade, you see, that Simrnons Lumber Company, the railroad put a big bridge across there and that lumber from Simmons Lumber Company and the Babcock Coal and Lumber Company bought it out later after Simmons was killed
JW: How did he get killed?
JR: A guy from over here about Blue Jay came in there and shot him?
JW: Why'd he shoot him?
JR: Over some... some kind of workin' conditions.
JW: Oh, really?
JR: Yeah.
JW: Was he a former employee?
JR: Yeah, he had worked there. And he shot him and shot the bookkeeper...shot the bookkeeper in the neck and killed the old man Simmons. Old man Simmons was a pretty good-sized man. And, we was workin’ there, and Frank Halstead was superintendent, and he wanted to know why we didn't stop ‘im. We said, told him, how you gonna stop a man with a gun and him a shootin'.
JW: Oh, you saw this happen? What happened exactly?
JR: Well, he just came in and called that man and shot him.
JW: Did you see him?
JR: No, didn't see him shoot him, but didn't nobody know what was goin’ on, you see.
JW: But you heard the shot?
JR: Yeah. And old man Doug Lacy, he was the bookkeeper, and he gobbled like a turkey. By the time he'd seen he 'd nicked somebody, you know, he started breathin' up to gobble and the guy shot him and he dived back down by the safe, you see. The old big safe they had behind there and the bullet hit the safe, didn't hit old Doug Lacy. He was... that was the bookkeeper. And the other bookkeeper, he got shot in the neck.
JW: Did it kill him?
JR: No, he finally lived.
JW: What year was this? Do you remember?
JR: That was in... that was in 1923 or '24
JW: And, so, you were workin' with the railroad? You just happened to be there?
JR: Just there.
JW: And the guy came in and...
JR: Just come in there...
JW: ...and you saw he had a gun in his hand?
JR: ...and shot him, just come down there…
JW: What kind of gun was it? Do you remember?
JR: Some kind of a little owl head, I think.
JW: Oh an owl head. It was probably a…
JR: A pistol, yeah.
JW: You saw him come in with the gun, and I guess you heard the shots?
JR: Killed the old man dead.
JW: OK. Going right along... tell me about what else was up there in the Gorge... what it looked like then ...going up from Glade Creek area.
JR: Well, goin’ up from Glade Creek ...well, startin' from Hinton, down, in the Gorge, you see, back before the Civil War and before there was any railroad and Hinton was Avis... the Avis Line was Hinton then. Course, the home I bought was built there ...the house that I owned and my home, I sold it just a few years ago, was built in 1872.
JW: Where is it, now?
JR: It's straight up on 'cross Main Street. And, ah... I bought that... the Avis Line come there and when my father and them come here, see, there wasn't no Hinton. The old man...Hinton was named after Avis, you see. A fellow, Ballengee, that owned this started with... the whole Hinton, he bought the whole thing for four dollars.
JW: Four dollars!? I hadn't heard that story.
JR: Bought the whole thing for four dollars.
JW: How did that happen?
JR: Nobody wanted it... it was just a hillside and nothin' in there, you see, and nobody wanted it…
JW: This is Ballengee?
JR: Yeah, a fellow by the name of Ballengee bought it for four dollars and sold it, 1 think he sold it to the Hintons...I'm not too sure, but I believe it was. And then the town then… both towns was named, see... his name was Hinton, Avis Hinton. And they named Avis after him, the station then, when they finally got the railroad here in 1870. The station was up there at Avis right there where old Avis Crossing... you know, where the Foodland is and on across the river there. That was the station then. And they named this end, the lower end, Hinton. When you got... they incorporated it and they built... course they built the Courthouse after the railroad come. Before the railroad come, you see, they had to go to Kanawha...to Kanawha City where the saltworks was to get their salt. And what they would do, they would team up, several of them, and take a yoke of oxen, you see, and go to Kanawha City to get their salt once a year. And they would have to go down the Gorge part of the way ...well, in the meantime, they would follow some into what you called the old Midland Trail at places and they'd go to Kanawha City to get their salt.
JW: was this salt for seasoning and also for animals?
JR: Yeah, for seasoning and animals...everything you see. They had to go down there and get it. So they would take their oxens and a bunch of them would go and get their salt and come back. They wasn't no... see, this wasn't no… when my grandfather, even my father was a boy, this was all Virginia. Wasn't no State of West Virginia. Course, it wasn't made a state until 1863.
JW: Now, this old house you were telling me about, what was the address? Do you remember? It's on Main Street?
JR: Yeah. It was, ah...111.. .111 Main Street.
JW: 111 Main Street and it was built in 1872.
JR: 1872 and I sold it...I sold it to Frankie Moneymaker. He still lives there.
JW: OK. I just didn't know that for certain. Tell me more about the Gorge when you were work in' up there, in your early years.
JR: Well, the Gorge... you see, the mines was goin' full blast then... you had a mines coming up this way from Prince. We'd go from Hinton, down. We got down... you see, when you got down there from the railroad. The railroad was built in 1870, they built the railroad. Well, the Tomkees...the Tomkees was the oldest business here. See, they come to Fort Springs ahead of the railroad and when the railroad, see, when the railroad had come to Fort Springs they had a commissary there; And then they moved on ahead... and see, the Tomkees was in business in 1863 and them old tumbl... part of them buildings that's burned over there, burned down, was the Tomkee buildings.
JW: Oh, really. You mean that building... the old Davis building dates back that far?
JR: Yeah, goes back that far... the Tomkee building and the old Davis building… course, they remodeled the old Davis building. And before the Tornkees went into business there in 1863. And, ah... that's when the railroads came. They didn't go right into that same spot they was in because they's in... but they built those brick buildings and when they built those, the brickyards, up on Brickyard Hill, and the people make their brick up there.
JW: Where was this?
JR: Just- up there, you know when you go up what's the Cemetary Hill going up the Oak Knob?
JW: OK. I've got an old map over here. This map goes back to... what... 1876 . . . steamboat landing and Pack Street, Ballengee Street, Temple Street...
JR: Main Street down here...
JW: Here's Summers, Second... I don't see Main written there. Here's the old roundhouse.
JR: Yeah. That's on...down on Front Street below the Front Street there. But this road that goes out there now, it's the same one that used to be years ago. It's... as you go up the house where the school house is...our elementary school... that's Cross Street up there.
JW: Yeah, here's Cross Street.
JR: OK, you go out here to this church and turn up and this comes on cross here cross Avis Crossing... was a little short bridge. You turn up there left to the cemetary, the McGuire Cemetary and the Hilltop Cemetary. And that's what goes on out there.
JW: And that's where the brickyard was.
JR: The brickyard was across on Brickyard Hill. You go up there and you go to your right around to the Brickyard Hill.
JW: OK. Brickyard Hill was over near where the cemetary is today up on Avis?
JR: No. It's on the other side... on the right. Goes back in there.
JW: Made their own bricks?
JR: Made their own bricks and built those buildings?
JW: And the bricks that they made up there were used there in the old Davis Building.
JR: Those old buildings was built out of that homemade brick.
JW: I didn't realize that. OK. Back to the Gorge there... what else do you remember up there... what was it like in the Twenties?
JR: Well, when you started down... when you went down in that Gorge, they started down there. course, that's after the railroad was built. The railroad was built to go along before I was born, but when I become familiar with it, working, you see...they used the Gorge to go down to get their salt and stuff before they had this railroad.
JW: How far down the Gorge would they go?
JR: They'd go all the way to right just east of Charleston.
JW: They'd go down the Gorge the whole way?
JR: Yeah, only they'd have to. see they'd have to leave it and hit some of what they called Midland Trail. see, they'd have to hit some of that… and see, the Midland Trail come back in there at Gauley.
JW: OK. Where would they leave it down here? Near Green Sulphur and all like that?
JR: Somewhere in there where they crossed in there. But the mines ...let's see... the mines was in full sweep then. They'd have timber mills. The first mines was the Beury Mines at Meadow Creek, up Claypool Hollow. And, they went from there on down to Glade. And then that big lumber mill was in there. They built that… railroad built that big bridge across there. And then they also... lumber company built a railroad... loggin' railroad come across and come clear up there and crossed White Oak. On top of White Oak here and you 'd be able across there to Beckley. You know, when you get up on that last...I don't mean the first White Oak, but the next. Get up on that little hill there after you crossed this main White Oak... there's a building sets over there to the left. It's a strip mine in there. Well, right across there, the railroad come across there, went on across and out across 219.
JW: Is that where those big piers are still in the river today?
JR: Yeah, they're still down there at Glade... that's the big piers. That's where that big railroad... that was one of the strongest railroad bridges on the river at that time.
JW: You know, it's not being used now. They tore it down.
JR: No. They took the steel up... they took the steel up and brought it up here and whenever they built this Bluestone they brought that steel and put it across the railroad across there to that dam.
JW: So, they took the steel off that bridge and made a spur line up to the dam?
JR: Yeah, uh—huh. And after that went out, I don't know whatever happened to the steel then. Don't remember.
JW: Well, what was it like in those coal camps then? Do you remember...?
JR: Well, it was just like in the… everybody seemed to be happy. Course, they didn't make much money. The coal people didn't pay much. My brother—in—law was a miner. He mined fifty years on Laurel Creek. You could go on down there from the Beury Mines and get on down past Glade, then you come into Quinnimont. And those mines down there, the Laurel Creek Mines and Prince ...you see, that was a Princest was millionaires. And the McQuarry Mines, across there from Prince. Well, the McQuarrys built this big hotel here in Hinton. Now that was McQuarry. And the Princes. you had the Prince there. Well, you had the telegraph stations. You started here from Hinton, you had the one there where the cabin is... C.W. Cabin... It was above there at that time. And they was one at Brooks. And they had a spur track... center track down there where they would set off and they had a operator there. And they had a operator at a planing mill at Sandstone.
JR: That was a little old railroad town, Sandstone. That's about all gone. Went on down Meadow Creek and they had another... they had a ferry there at Meadow Creek where they crossed and went back into the Richmond District into Raleigh County. They crossed that by ferry boat in there. And then, they built that... the Raines and those built that railroad then from Rainelle... the Meadow River Lumber Company. See, they built the railroad... one of the Raines' owned the railroad and one owned the mill. They built that railroad in there and, in the mines, and hauled their coal and lumber out of there on that there. And they had a motor car . passenger motor car at Meadow Creek into Rainelle on into Rupert. They built that, the Raines' did. One had... owned the railroad company and one owned the mill. They finally sold the railroad to the N & W, the G & L, they called it. And finally the C & O bought that.
JW: You mentioned, the people seemed to be happy there in the mines. Did you know many of the… I mean in the mining towns... did you know many of them?
JR: Yeah. They all got along ...lot different from the way it is now. Most of the people worked and they didn't have all this stuff to look forward to and the mines ...now, my brother—in—law worked in the mines there... part of the mines he worked in, he'd have to go in, and the others did to, he'd have to go in there ...course, I was never in the. mines. I'm just going from my own... brother—in—law's and all his boys worked in the mines. They'd have to go in there on that mine on a little bit of a low pulley that way, laying down. And they had to lay on their side to load their coal.
JW: Lay on their side? How high was the ceiling?
JR: Ceiling wasn't but about... well, was just barely enough to clear you to go in there on your belly on one of them little cars.
JW: So it must have been about four feet high?
JR: No, it wasn't that high. It was just about... I guess about three feet would do it. And then you... you had to lay on your side to load your coal.
JW: Those seams were awful narrow then.
JR: Oh, Lord it was different then. I wouldn't have went in one at all. My brother—in—law said he wouldn't do nothin' else other than the mines. They'd build those mining towns... course now, we worked around the mining towns when I was working... I was workin' in the Signal Department. We had a operatin' plant over here at Helen at the mines there on the Gulf. We had signals on the tunnel side that goes down in that part there. And the mines, they was work in' good and everybody, you know, worked in the mines and lived along there... later on, of course, the mines got tough and everything else got tough, as far as that is concerned... back there then.
JW: You 're talking about the Twenties?
JR: Yea.
How about the danger in there? Wasn't there several people killed in the mines?
JR: Yeah. There was several of them killed, but not as many as they do any more.
JW: Oh, really.
JR: No, because people that mined then, now they tell me...It's first hand... they knew what to do in those mines. They were good in the mines and they kept the mines shored up. And as fer as the gas and stuff is concerned, they understood it. But, later on, I understand... later on in years, the Government and the Safety got ahold of it and people inspected the mines and the miners then, they was careless and they would disobey orders. They followed their orders back in those day and time, just like amines that's got gas in it, back in those days, they used those headlamps with a blaze in them, you see. And, so, it was altogether different. They got to using machines and all and they become more careless.
JW: Were there many foreigners and immigrants?
JR: Oh, yeah. They were from everywhere in those mines.
JW: Did you know many of them?
JR: Not too many. I just knew around them. Some of them I knew and got kindly acquainted with them... some of the Italians. You never could understand most of them. They were all nice people though.
JW: Where else would they come from?
JR: Well, they had in the mines... they had Italians and they had Syrians, and jus... from all parts of the country you might say.
JW: Many blacks?
JR: Oh, lots of blacks.
JW: Well, tell me about Thurmond.
JR: Oh, Thurmond. That there was the railroaders and the miners haven, saloons and everything was goin' on there that a man could imagine. Almost like… what's it called, Las Vegas?
JW: When did you first go to Thurmond?
JR: Oh, I was in Thurmond back there in the Twenties... the early Twenties. Back when it was really...
JW: Tell me about the DunG1en Hotel.
JR: Oh, that DunG1en Hotel. I'll tell you, that place there was a boomin' and they had everything there. And they had their pool tables and they had their gamblin' and whiskey and liquor. There was one man... he was a section foreman, and this guy... he didn't like him and was kindly jealous of him. I won't mention his name.
JW: OK.
JR: But, he had this... his wife to make a date with this guy ...now, this is Thurmond... and made a date with this guy and he shot him.
JW: Oh! He had his wife make a date with him?
JR: Baited him and killed him right there in Thurmond.
JW: Oh, he did?!
JR: Yeah, he killed him.
JW: How did you know about this?
JR: Oh, it was. everybody knew it. See, I was work in' up thru there and eve rybody knew that. And... yeah, he killed him.
JW: Where did he shoot him?
JR: I think he shot him in the chest or somewhere with a shotgun.
JW: What did he lure him outside the hotel or what?
JR: Naw. He just watched him. Caught him in the right spot and killed him.
JW: Were there many people killed in Thurmond?
JR: Oh, they was a lot of them, but not as right open. It was mostly on that bridge, And people...
JW: In the dark?
JR: Yeah. Lot of people was mean and they was robbery and what—have—you. And they'd knock 'em in the head. The ones that they found and buried, nobody knew who they was or where they come from. They had a potter's field up there on the other side of the river ...up there, what you called Potter's Field. See, Thurmond was a busy place and mines was all around it, you see. And that was Stonecliff Mines across the river there. See, they was those mines and all around Thurmond and Beury there ...Beury right below Thurmond; then right across the river they had a railroad went down there to that mines across New River there from Thurmond. And, then just a little piece up there to Minden, the Minden Mines. And then, all up around there that part there... the mines was thick and people was plentiful. And, of course, back in that time, money was plentiful, cause you didn't have to spend too much, you know.
JW: Did you ever stay at the DunG1en?
JR: No, I never did stay there.
JW: How about the LaFayette?
[END OF SIDE ONE]
Description
Hinton, Railroading, Bootlegging
Date Created
11/14/1983
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