Audio
Joeseph Souza
Transcript
[00:00:00]
Interviewer: Interview with Joseph Souza and his wife, Billy, and his daughter, Shirley Nigren at their Muir Beach home on March 31st, 1989. This is half of the recorded conversation. The other half was damaged and could not be recorded.
However, notes were taken during that part.
We pick up the conversation as Joe is starting to discuss the different ceremonies that the Portuguese community is involved in during the year. [00:00:30] We just finished talking about the Holy Ghost ceremony that occurs around the Easter time and subsequent to Easter, eight Sundays after Easter. We've also finished talking about life at the Slide Ranch and some of the other ranches in the area. The pertinent details are in the notes.
[pause 00:00:49] [00:01:00]
Joe: That's where usually you pick up more money that way. You wouldn't have to buy feed because of the [unintelligible 00:01:20] don't make that much profit. What else could I say about that? [00:01:30]
Interviewer: Actually, I wanted to ask you about the other ceremonies too. There's the Holy Ghost--
Joe: Festival?
Interviewer: Yes. There's the Holy Ghost festivals, but there are other festivals during the year as well, right?
Joe: Yes. You have the Queen's drawings in February. Gals are all single and the members choose a lot, they have these little numbers there, if your number's 10 and so your dad has to get you [00:02:00] dressed and all that to be the queen.
Then you have to go find a couple girl friends to be your maids, but they have to be Catholic. Then you get flower girls.
Interviewer: Do they all have to be at the one church or can they be--
Joe: Yes, but then you'll go-- Like now you'll go to Sausalito and you go to Nevada or you go to Belem and you go to Sebastopol and then sometimes Fort Bragg, and then Benicia.
Son: San Joaquin Valley. If you're chosen to be a queen [00:02:30] there, you start-
Joe: Oh, yeah. About 20 of them.
Son: -seven Sundays-- The seventh Sunday after Easter is the first one in Modesto. They are every Sunday until October.
Interviewer: Until Pentecost?
Son: Yes. No. Pentecost is after.
Interviewer: August?
Joe: It's the seventh. No, no, no.
Son: It's the seventh Sunday after-
Joe: That's Brother's Supper.
Son: -Easter.
Joe: Members.
Son: As far as the Queen's Marching, they all intermingle with each other. Your queen comes to mine, my queen comes to your festa.
Interviewer: Wow.
Son: They start early and they go everywhere. [00:03:00] Here it's four weeks, five weeks. [crosstalk]
Joe: They spend whole summers $4,000, $5,000. To clothe the kids. Apricot, [unintelligible 00:03:10] trews, purple, maroon-- beautiful. Augustine, that's in September. I've had at least 25 queens.
Son: That's biggest one in California.
Interviewer: Wow.
Joe: You got Marlborough, Santa Cruz.
Son: It goes for [00:03:30] four days.
Interviewer: Wow.
Son: Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
Joe: [unintelligible 00:03:32] They have a bull fight. They'll march the cows, and then they give milk, and Portuguese sweet bread to people. They've got a carnival.
Son: Big time.
Interviewer: There's special sweet breads too for the Holy Ghost festival too, right?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: That's what I thought. Is one person in charge of making those or just--
Joe: No. I guess in the old days-- Matter of fact, when I was a child in Sausalito, [00:04:00] the ladies used to bake cake. Either cake, [unintelligible 00:04:05] had an apple orchard, so all the ladies would have apple pie. We'd have apple pie with your supper. Now it's too damn many people to even begin that.
Anyway, getting back to sweet bread, they have a bakery-- Bakery. Hell, they have three or four of them in San Jose or Santa Clara that we go there and we order 500 rolls or 1,000, whatever you want. [00:04:30] You got to order at least a day ahead of time, so you get it the same day, you bring it-- have you ever seen there eight boxes of [unintelligible 00:04:36] bread, four in each one? Well, if you pick them up today, they've made them this morning, [whistles] it'll be like a pancake. The bread will just-- You have to leave it-- Hard enough for a day anyway.
Interviewer: They're leavened?
Joe: Oh yes. They have, like I say, bakeries would make them.
Interviewer: There's the Holy Ghost festival, that [00:05:00] takes place right at Easter?
Joe: Seventh.
Interviewer: No, that's seven?
Joe: Seven Sundays after Easter.
Interviewer: After Easter. Then Pentecost is separate?
Joe: No, Pentecost is a week later I think. They had Trinity they got--
Interviewer: There's Trinity Sunday.
Joe: Trinity Sunday is like a week after.
Son: Week before.
Joe: Week before, that's right.
Son: Trinity is the sixth Sunday after Easter. Pentecost is the seventh Sunday after Easter Sunday.
Interviewer: Are they separate festivals are no? They're the same [crosstalk]
Son: We don't really have [crosstalk]
Joe: At one time, like Sausalito and Nevada used to [00:05:30] have on the week before or the week after. That got too damn much already to do, costly. You hire a band, now it'll cost you $500 just for the band.
Interviewer: What kind of band did you have? What instruments were there?
Joe: In the old days it was a guitar, accordion, and the violin.
Son: And viola.
Joe: It was mostly Portuguese Chamarrita, the dance. Now they got modern stuff.
Son: [unintelligible 00:05:53] in Kansas City.
Joe: Yes. Rock n' rolling.
Interviewer: Are there traditional [00:06:00] dances that are still done though?
Joe: Oh yes, the Chamarrita is a circle.
Interviewer: It's a big circle dance?
Son: Yes. [crosstalk]
Joe: Yes. You got to learn them when they have this--
Interviewer: No, I've never learned any [crosstalk]
Son: You should one day [unintelligible 00:06:10] Sausalito? [crosstalk]
Joe: Coming up 21st day.
Interviewer: Of April?
Joe: No, of May.
Interviewer: Oh, Jesus. Would be great.
Son: You should go because it's at night. [crosstalk] You'd miss the parade and that but-- The parade [00:06:30] usually leaves Caledonia at 9:00 in the morning on Sunday. What's you trip on Sunday?
Interviewer: Oh, I'm not going to be working at the Woods' after that.
Son: Oh that's right.
Interviewer: I might not even be here, but I would like to go. [crosstalk]
Joe: No, listen here, it is-- [00:07:00] Let's see. [unintelligible 00:07:03] Festa May 6th.
Son: So Sausalito's the next week and the 14th [crosstalk]
Interviewer: That'd be great. I'll still be around then.
Son: 13th? You get to do one in [unintelligible 00:07:16] because Sausalito would be a lot easier. It's the 14th.
Joe: It could be the 16th.
Billy: It's the 14th, isn't it? [crosstalk]
Interviewer: What was the first one that you went to?
Joe: [00:07:30] May 14th.
Son: Where I could remember.
Interviewer: Really?
Son: I was born in December, so I'm sure when I was six months old in May--
Interviewer: They probably took you along, right?
Son: Oh yes.
Joe: May 14th, yes.
Interviewer: There's the Queen's dinner and dance on Saturday.
Joe: Right.
Interviewer: There's the Holy Ghost auction on Saturday. Holy Ghost, it's a festa though, isn't it? It's not fiesta, it's festa.
Son: It's festa.
Joe: Festa.
Interviewer: Parade, and then a state dinner Saturday.
Joe: Yes, that's not until June 24th. That's the itinerary for the whole year, see?
Interviewer: What's a Brother's [00:08:00] Dinner?
Joe: It's all the members that are--
Billy: That's what a--
Joe: Family.
Son: Free thank you dinner for everybody that's donated, every member free of charged.
Joe: End of the year. Yes, it's all free.
Interviewer: Those are about the-- Are there any other festivals throughout the year like in the winter is there anything?
Son: Only the Holy Ghost is the big one.
Joe: They have Portuguese clubs.
Interviewer: All the religious events too are probably celebrated in the church. I'm just curious.
Joe: Yes. [00:08:30]
Son: But not as a group.
Interviewer: Not as a group?
Son: For the society itself, only Pentecost is the big one. They used to have a Christmas party for the kids, but there again it's like if they--
Joe: They've give away $1,000 worth of stuff. [unintelligible 00:08:44]
Son: You got Tonka trucks and the whole nine yards then.
Joe: I used to go down there and put up the bells, put some bells and decorate a tree.
Son: It's going to change. Pretty soon the tree costs $100 and you have to have them Scotchgarded, and [00:09:00] all these things that come with the change of time.
Billy: [unintelligible 00:09:02] little kids and [crosstalk]
Interviewer: The big thing is that there're be preparing the food because of the famine [crosstalk]
Son: There's always the meal.
Interviewer: In the home country.
Joe: Yes.
Son: Then they deliver sweet bread.
Joe: One time we used to deliver the meat-- we got about 15 to 20 cows. We'd go to all these people that donated $2, $5, imagine going from here, you got Benicia, Napa, Moran, Helena Bay, there was blood running out of the packages. We had them wrapped early, but sometimes the bone penetrates the--
Son: [00:09:30] That was raw, it wasn't cooked.
Interviewer: This was after it took four or five days to get the cows to the place.
Joe: Right. So many come out, and then eat food at the hall. They say the [unintelligible 00:09:43] the catara and all we do now-- If somebody donates they'll give them a sweet bread. It's a hell of a lot cleaner, it was a mess.
Interviewer: How many members do you have in the Sausalito?
Joe: About 250.
Interviewer: That's a lot.
Joe: I belong to the [00:10:00] Nevada, I've belonged to Pelum, I've belonged to Sebastopol.
Son: You've belonged all over [crosstalk]
Joe: Yes. This one here, when you die you get $200, and the one in Nevada-- No, they had a thing--
Son: It's like a life insurance [crosstalk]
Joe: They had a policy. That was $200.
Billy: Just a member [unintelligible 00:10:21] in Nevada [unintelligible 00:10:23]
Interviewer: Originally did the church in Sausalito have a cemetery with it as well?
Joe: Had a cemetery?
Interviewer: Had a cemetery associated with [00:10:30] it? Was it traditional for people to bury their family on the farms?
Joe: I think Santa [crosstalk]
Interviewer: Or was it tradition to bury in a Catholic cemetery?
Joe: That would be back in the early 1800s. I never heard of any-- There's one in Bolinas.
Son: Oh, our family's done all of it. That cemetery goes back a long time.
Interviewer: All of it?
Joe: Yes.
Son: The [crosstalk]
Interviewer: Oh right the hill.
Son: Yes.
Joe: Left hand side there.
Interviewer: That's an oldie. That's been there for a long time.
Joe: I was there in Bolinas [00:11:00] [crosstalk]
Son: Everyone that we know is [crosstalk]
Interviewer: Sure, on the right?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: [crosstalk]
Joe: I never heard of it. Burial sites here. My aunt's still in there [unintelligible 00:11:10]
Interviewer: I'm just curious because I know that sometimes when families are out in the country, that it was traditional--
Joe: Yes, maybe back in the 1780s or something like that they might've had a little--
Interviewer: It's just one thing that I have to make sure people are aware of in case there's the likelihood that that's going to happen because that's the type of thing where-- [00:11:30] If people come across something like that then they want to know who to consult.
If there's a likelihood of that happening I have to make them aware of it, that's all, because sometimes people are just really unaware of what they can expect. I didn't think it was very likely after, probably, 1900s.
I have a couple of other questions. Early on in your dad's era again, and before, how much intermarriage [00:12:00] outside of people that were from the Azores was there? Was there very much intermarriage outside?
Joe: None.
Interviewer: None?
Joe: No, strictly Portuguese, Portuguese, Italian, Italian.
Interviewer: When you were little, or when your father was first here, any memories of any Native Americans in the area? Any California Indians that were working on farms, or living near farms or anything?
Joe: None.
Interviewer: None that you knew?
Joe: Dad never mentioned to me anything about [00:12:30] it.
Interviewer: Let's see.
Son: You were going to ask him about those two buildings on the ranch.
Interviewer: Yes. I was going to start with the ranch too. Let's see, it's right here. There's two residences. A square one and a long one. Any idea which one was the older of the two?
Joe: Probably about the same because we lived on the left side of the land, and Malcolm lived on the right side. It's right across right where we're at. [00:13:00] In the same barns.
Son: I thought you both lived on the left-
Joe: What?
Son: - and [unintelligible 00:13:02] lived on the right.
Joe: No, no. We lived on the left, he lived on the right.
Interviewer: This is a hay barn here?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Was there a milking barn or something?
Joe: Yes. Right there. You can't see it, but it's right here.
Interviewer: Just to the east?
Joe: Matter of fact, the milk barn was just behind and the cow barn was inside the [unintelligible 00:13:18] and the corral was right here.
Interviewer: A double seated privy?
Son: Wasn't it a two seater? The outhouse.
Joe: I think so yes. When I was little [00:13:30] I could've made a mistake [crosstalk]
Son: I remember.
Joe: [unintelligible 00:13:31] when I got mud all over [unintelligible 00:13:32] my pants.
[laughter]
Interviewer: I bet that was the last time you made that mistake.
Joe: Did you hear about the moron who did this? It was [unintelligible 00:13:46]
Son: I remember when Joe Sanus was there. I remember the animals were still there. It was right behind the house on the right by that pine tree.
Joe: Pine tree, yes. Like I said, the pine tree was five-foot tall. I was there and that [unintelligible 00:13:57]
Son: Well, the tree's still there.
Joe: Oh yes, it's still there.
Son: I think it's still [00:14:00] there.
Interviewer: You were talking about the manure in the creek and other things that were going in the creek.
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Was it real common in all these farms-- If there was a household dump, where would it be normally in relation to where the buildings were?
Joe: I never seen that. There were always plenty of creeks [unintelligible 00:14:15] to have that disposal there.
Interviewer: It would always be in a drainage or garbage dump? It'd always be in the drainage?
Joe: Yes. Nothing like cans.
Interviewer: Right, cans and bottles.
Joe: We used to bury the cans.
Interviewer: [00:14:30] Where did you bury them in this case? This ranch right here?
Joe: I don't remember.
Son: Up on the barn somewhere.
Joe: Might've done. I always threw them in the creek [unintelligible 00:14:39] [laughter] I'd just say that I just worked there.
Interviewer: This was all oat hay in here?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Then these pastures in here--
Joe: Say right here where you're close to [unintelligible 00:14:54] Beach, we used to call it the tollgate field because the tollgate was there. Now it's got brush in there. [00:15:00] We used to plow all that, then next one up-- Everything's on the right side of the creek now.
On the left side is all Banducci's. Then you had another little one, as soon as you go-- You got up the straight there, then you go and around and turn here, there's another little field there. Then you know where we are, with our water supply?
Interviewer: Yes.
Joe: We'd plow that too. Then if you're driving to the-- Before you get to the bridge you look up, it's kind of a square-like, we plowed that. Then right in front of the dairy here, right here is [00:15:30] what I was telling you about right here. We'd plow that. This and right here in front of the-- That was the extent of it. Then Pone, they would plow all this here for hay.
Interviewer: These were all hay?
Joe: Yes. No alfalfa because you could [unintelligible 00:15:44]
Interviewer: How about their buildings? It looks like they had a real big barn.
Joe: Yes, fairly big.
Interviewer: Then, was there water--
Joe: No bigger than ours, but-- They had a little barn, and that there is where they stored the hay, their hay barn.
Interviewer: Is the crossing where [00:16:00] you crossed the stream, is it still there?
Joe: Yes, but the bridge is knocked down.
Son: It's about buried.
Joe: This all filled in with trees and everything. You can see it, if you walk in there you'll probably see where the bridge is. Probably some pilings there.
Interviewer: How many outbuildings were there? Was there one main house or more than one?
Joe: No, just the main house and tool shed, an old garage, double car garage I remember.
Interviewer: What were their first names?
Joe: Joe Pone.
Interviewer: And his wife?
Son: Isabel.
Joe: She's still alive. Isabel.
Son: Isabel.
Joe: She lives in Philly.
Son: She [crosstalk]
Interviewer: [00:16:30] I saw a label De Pone. D-E Pone.
Joe: De Pone?
Interviewer: Yes.
Joe: Yes, I called them [unintelligible 00:16:36] Joe De Ponte there. De Pone, D-E P-O-N-T-E. They had one son [unintelligible 00:16:43]
Interviewer: [unintelligible 00:16:45]
Joe: Joe Jr. She works for City of Nevada in the streets [unintelligible 00:16:47]?
Son: 22 years.
Joe: 22 years, something like that.
Interviewer: How long did they have their farm there? Do you remember when they--
Joe: Well, he died so about--
Interviewer: He owned the land [00:17:00] or was he running the dairy for somebody else?
Joe: I'd say they-- one of the guy's name is Joey Jano. But I don't know if he ever bought it or if he leased it, I think he leased it. I don't think he ever bought it. Matter of fact, I know he didn't. He leased it.
The guy who owned it was a bachelor named Joe Jano, J-A-N-O. Matter of fact, he used to live right here. You know where the Pelican is?
Interviewer: Yes.
Joe: Where the Stop [unintelligible 00:17:25] going right there on the corner where the cattle shoots are, he had the house right there. [00:17:30] It was Joe Jano.
Interviewer: Across the street at the Golden Gate Dairy original-- Any idea of the original owners before?
Joe: No because there was another guy in there named-- [unintelligible 00:17:44] name. [silence] Lunes. He was just a leaser.
Interviewer: This in the '30s?
Joe: Yes, [00:18:00] late '30s. Matter of fact, I think he was putting half in the hay loft where the cows were at and the hay barn, and then he--
Interviewer: That isn't the barn that's still out there, is it?
Joe: Yes. Anyway, he had on the sites, and he'd put too very much hay in there, the cows were in there. [noise] Broke them. It's going to kill-- about 20 cows just broke their back. All that weight come down. [00:18:30]
Interviewer: I don't see any pastures out here for Golden Gate Dairy. Are the pastures out on the [unintelligible 00:18:39]
Joe: Yes, the horses are out in the back.
Interviewer: Sure. That's where they had the--
Joe: Yes. Cattle lots.
Interviewer: Do they have any fields of [crosstalk]
Joe: No.
Interviewer: They didn't have any fields of [unintelligible 00:18:47]?
Joe: None, not sorghum, no. No fields.
Interviewer: Wow.
Joe: He had to buy all that hay. It was to buy feed also, like coconut meal and barley.
Interviewer: Is the coconut meal for the oil?
Joe: Yes. He mixed it with some barley, [00:19:00] and modern vitamins and all that. Now they got Dairy Miss Millie which mixed that already in it. Brings it in, they pump it into a big cylinder, then they just open the chute and slide it to the cows. It's all measured now. It's all scientific and computerized. Yes, really.
Dad, he'd have a cow about two months to go, so he'd just give a little bit of that. She's not producing, you're not going to fill-- [00:19:30] Now a cow that's producing, you give her a big scoop of the feed and more hay. It was a lot of work, that's all I know.
Interviewer: Yes, it's a lot of work.
Joe: Seven days a week, holidays. There were no holidays.
Interviewer: That's right. They're not going to wait. They have to be milked.
Joe: [inaudible 00:19:47]
Interviewer: That's right.
Joe: Twice a day.
Interviewer: 3:00 AM and 3:00 PM.
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: The Brazil's fields look different. How come? Just curious.
Joe: There's between the road [00:20:00] and the creek.
Interviewer: They look darker on this.
Joe: Yes. They would plant beets, sugar beets for the cows.
Interviewer: For the cows to eat?
Joe: Yes. I used to see the old man down [unintelligible 00:20:15] he had a god darn sack, and he'd take it, and he'd be hauling along like that. What a back breaking job.
Interviewer: This was the?
Joe: Tony Brazil's dad and [unintelligible 00:20:26] son.
Son: What was his first name?
Joe: Elias.
Son: [00:20:30] Elias.
Joe: Elias.
Son: Elias. E-L-I-A-S.
Joe: E-L-I-A-S. I don't know. Like I said, he'd just be grade B, he wasn't grade A for milk, see?
Interviewer: The only grade As were your dairy and?
Joe: Grade A and grade B, yes.
Interviewer: The Golden Gate Dairy ws the only grade A's?
Joe: The ones that I recall.
Son: Pone's was B too?
Joe: I think so.
Interviewer: I read somewhere that originally the dairies were producing more cheese and butter, and then later they produced more [00:21:00] milk.
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: What was the reason that they switched over, any?
Joe: More money, I guess.
Interviewer: It was a different way of producing a product too.
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Seems like butter and cheese would've taken a heck of a lot more time.
Joe: Oh yes. Making butter, hell yes. First it was by hand, then they got electric motor, then they--
Interviewer: Did you do that at your dairy, and make butter as well? No?
Joe: Oh, by hand, yes. Mom would mix them, sure. [crosstalk]
Son: For home use not for [crosstalk]
Joe: For herself.
Interviewer: Not for commercial?
Joe: No.
Interviewer: How about back here on the other side [00:21:30] of the Brazil ranch, back where the big barn was. Were they growing something else on this side?
Joe: No.
Interviewer: That is a recorded archeological site, the storage site.
Joe: Really?
Interviewer: For the state park. Well, they had the forethought to do that before the state park put the residences in. There was a neat old redwood-lined well. Really deep at the mouth of the stream.
Joe: Yes, we still get our water way up in there. You know what we'd have? Ever see a [unintelligible 00:21:57] [00:22:00] 10 pounds or whatever?
We'd stick that in the ground, then put the pipe in there, and then put a brick and perforate it with holes so we wouldn't have any stuff going into the thing, then piped it. That's where our water came--
Interviewer: How far up that canyon did you go? Way up?
Joe: Bull Canyon? Yes, up through here. We'd have the spring up here, and the spring over in here.
Interviewer: That's on the west side of the canyon.
Joe: The silt would come in there and fill up the pipes so you'd have to go in there and dig it out. The down here a ways up on the side hill-- [00:22:30] You'd get gravity so it would run from the springs into a 500-gallon tank maybe. Then it'd run into the house and then-- For washing the barns and for home use.
Interviewer: That supplied all the water to that particular place?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: That's incredible.
Joe: I was up there, we had no tank for water when I was--
Interviewer: For storage you mean?
Joe: No, when I wanted to take a bath I used a round tub alongside the stove.
Interviewer: That's right.
Joe: Friday night. [00:23:00] You're talking about having a bath, I'd get curled up in this [unintelligible 00:23:04] little thing like that. Cold as hell.
Son: [unintelligible 00:23:07]
Joe: No heat in the house. I bet you when I was a kid laying in the bed I had 10 blankets atop me. I couldn't even turn over, honest to God. There was no heat in the house. Dogs out in the back, always around damn fleas biting me.
Interviewer: How many dogs did you have at the farm?
Joe: We had about three. Cow dogs, all tied up.
Interviewer: Cow dogs? You mean there were [00:23:30] specifically to keep the cows in line?
Joe: Oh yes. You're damn right.
Interviewer: what kind of dogs?
Joe: Shepherd. You'd whistle at that dog and she'd look at those cows and do after them. We had one dog there who would separate the cows from the calf pasture. They were very smart. They knew how to separate the cows. They knew which ones were supposed to go in and which ones weren't.
Interviewer: Which pasture was the calf pasture? Did you have one specific pasture?
Joe: Yes. It was right over here on the right side. [00:24:00]
Interviewer: Closer to the farm?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: So you could keep an eye on them?
Joe: Yes, just above.
Interviewer: How long did they stay there before they went out with the--
Joe: We raised them until they were about six months old and we'd turn them loose. Make it where they could eat grass or anything, but sell all the bull calves and just keep the females.
Interviewer: How far did Brazil's property go down the road here? Looks like there's more pasture down here.
Joe: Yes. It's the fire trail [00:24:30] there.
Interviewer: Well, here's the road that goes up the hill now, the Deer Park Fire Road.
Joe: Right. They were right along the timber here. Right along there some place. I don't know where.
Son: Do you know [crosstalk]
Joe: I remember when we were kids we'd go up and get Christmas trees. Nowadays you'd get shot in the butt. [laughs]
Anyway, I used to go up there and get-- I'd come down with a bicycle. One time my cousin came down on a bicycle and he was going too damn fast, and man, they hit the side of the bank [smack] smashed the front of the wheell. It didn't hurt him.
Son: You [crosstalk]
Joe: But he smashed the God darn front of the bicycle and just came down there [unintelligible 00:25:05] We used to ride up in there.
Interviewer: Now, right down here where the road crosses the stream, there is a concrete bridge now.
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Just on the other side of that is a really nice old orchard.
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Who lived there?
Son: Is that where the [unintelligible 00:25:25] redwood is?
Interviewer: Yes, there's three redwoods there.
Joe: There's lots of them [00:25:30] on the right side there, the side hill there.
Son: I remember a building there [inaudible 00:25:32]
Interviewer: Yes, but they're way up high. I'm talking about right down by the stream.
Son: Right down to the road?
Interviewer: It would really help me if you knew.
Joe: This is going too far back. I can't remember who else were there.
[crosstalk] One of the names was Hopper, H-O-P-P-E-R.
Son: Right past Manuel and Mary's place, about two turns up on the left.
Joe: Past the dairy?
Son: Right there on the road. Past their dairy. Past Manuel and Mary's house.
Joe: [00:26:00] Yes, Brazil.
Son: [crosstalk] Going towards Muir Woods, about two turns up right on the left side. Right there on the road.
Joe: Where the rock bar used to be, where the CC Cam used to work?
Son: Yes.
Joe: I never noticed any--
Son: There's a shed thing now. I thought those old [unintelligible 00:26:12] used to lived there.
Interviewer: I'm thinking a little bit farther. Right before you get to the entrance to the monument, on the right hand side.
Joe: Oh, that's up where the Chinese [unintelligible 00:26:22]
Billy: Where all those apple trees are?
Interviewer: Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.
Son: Yes, there's a little bridge there.
Joe: Yes.
Son: There's old apple trees on the right before you get to all the bud lice.
Joe: [00:26:30] That's where the Bates live, isn't it?
Interviewer: No. Janette's up a little farther.
Son: No, Janette's up a little farther.
Joe: You mean from the bridge to the dates on the right hand side?
Interviewer: Yes, but right after that.
Son: This is right at the bridge.
Interviewer: Right at the bridge.
Son: Right at the bridge on the right.
Interviewer: Some of those apple trees are this big around. I figured [crosstalk]
Son: That thing [unintelligible 00:26:46] has 5,000 apples on it.
Joe: I knew a girl, she was about my age, her name was Hopper, last name. This house is hers because there's three or four houses there, so I don't know. [00:27:00] [crosstalk]
Interviewer: Then the next ranch would've been all the way up at the Deere's place, right?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Was there anything in between?
Joe: Of more dairies, no. Brazil's the last one on the left hand side. Pones, then ours and then Golden Gate-
Interviewer: Golden Gate.
Joe: -Banducci's there.
Interviewer: Banducci's. How about at the mouth of where--
Joe: [unintelligible 00:27:16] and so was the White Gate ranch, and there's a lot along the Bliss Lagoon.
Interviewer: How about along Green Gulch? Anything along there?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: Was that also Portuguese as well?
Joe: No. Yes, [00:27:30] one time.
Interviewer: Before Will Wright bought it, of course.
Joe: Yes, that was called Bella Beach and it was the same area. I've heard of the names, but I can't think if it was Portuguese.
Interviewer: That's okay. If you think of it, let me know. It's not important now.
Joe: That was a dairy there too. I know [unintelligible 00:27:49] grade B wasn't grade A. We were the first grade As in here.
Interviewer: Did you have to petition for it? Did you have to [00:28:00] have people come down and check the product?
Joe: I was eight years old. I don't remember stuff like that.
Interviewer: Today, what do you have to do in order to have that?
Joe: You have to have a contract first thing off the bat. 20 cans, 30 cans, 40 cans. They don't come cheap. It's like buying a liquor license.
Now they're [unintelligible 00:28:18] 10 years ago you couldn't buy it unless somebody ran out of business, then you could buy the license. Same way now. If somebody sells the dairy, the guy that's going to buy it, he wants to make sure that he gets the contract. [00:28:30] Otherwise [unintelligible 00:28:30] who's he going to sell the milk to? You've got to have a contract.
Interviewer: Do you remember early on when you were first tier people having to leave because they couldn't make it because they couldn't sell enough, or everybody seemed to be able to--
Joe: Yes. Everybody just got by.
Interviewer: That's good.
Son: Well because everybody was small potatoes. There wasn't any big guy around who'd buy everybody out. There was no monopolies anywhere.
Interviewer: That's right. What happened when Foremost bought out Marin Dell? [00:29:00]
Joe: Just continued on.
Interviewer: Just continued on?
Joe: Like it was. Yes. There was no change, or we want this, we want that. It was the same.
Interviewer: What year was that again, 19?
Joe: Foremost, I'd say in the '50s. '55, '56 when Foremost bought out Marin Dell.
Interviewer: When did the dairies start to close in this particular valley? [00:29:30]
Joe: What time was all that?
Son: [unintelligible 00:29:37] my age, 38, she was 13 when they left. 27 years.
Joe: He's had a dairy business earlier before that out of [unintelligible 00:29:45]
Son: 27 years. I'd say 30 years anyway. When I was little, they didn't even have milk cows anymore, they just had a couple for the house. Probably 40 years.
Interviewer: They ran beef cattle after the dairies closed?
Son: Yes.
Joe: Yes. Like we did. [00:30:00]
Son: The dairy, I remember when we went up they had a couple cows just for their own milk. They had six kids, so that's what they used it for. They had more big time stuff. Sure. I'm getting close to the big 40 so it's got [unintelligible 00:30:14]
Interviewer: They were the first ones to close up?
Joe: [crosstalk] The last.
Interviewer: Well, the last ones.
Son: Between sixth grade--
Interviewer: Who were the first ones to close up?
Son: They waited until [unintelligible 00:30:26]
Joe: Let's say Banducci's.
Son: I remember they moved in the summertime [00:30:30] because she [unintelligible 00:30:31]
Joe: Banducci's then us, then Pones then Golden Gate.
Interviewer: Did Golden Gate go right from being a dairy into a horse farm or was there something in between?
Joe: No, that was it.
Interviewer: At Slide Ranch, there was a period where after Joe left, it was bought by the Nature Conservancy. Is that correct?
Joe: Yes.
Interviewer: [00:31:00] Then it wasn't really used for a while and then--
Son: I think there was just the caretaker guy living there.
Joe: Yes, there was. Kids come out there and see the chickens and the goat and something like that. They're all excited seeing stuff like that. [unintelligible 00:31:12] Town [unintelligible 00:31:13] say that.
Interviewer: I'm sure I have a million other questions, but I can't think of them now. I want to give you guys a break. It's been quite an evening.
I really appreciate all the help and there's a lot of information here. I'm sure I'll have other questions.
Joe: Glad we could help a little bit anyway.
Interviewer: Oh, [00:31:30] I think you helped an awful lot. The picture of this is that, that this was a real active place till the '50s as far as dairy farming. Then there was a switch over.
Joe: They had a big tavern down here. They tried to make a go of it. They tried wrestling, they tried roller rink, they tried dancing.
Interviewer: Right down here at the beach? I heard about that, but wasn't it destroyed by a fire?
Son: Yes. With the telephone [unintelligible 00:31:54]
Joe: [unintelligible 00:31:54] Cabins that had-
Son: Right there.
Joe: -seven cabins.
Son: Where the porta-potties are along the [unintelligible 00:32:00] [00:32:00] Seven or nine of them.
Joe: The [unintelligible 00:32:04] come up there and moved some around.
Son: Yes. Moved some around. [laughs]
Interviewer: Was it called the Muir Beach Tavern?
Joe: Yes.
Son: Just the tavern.
Interviewer: Who ran it?
Joe: Dr. O' Brian. Don O'Brian.
Interviewer: Sounds like a real lively place.
Joe: He's a dentist.
Son: He was a dentist, a merciless dentist.
Interviewer: Oh, dear.
Son: Pulled teeth without Novocaine.
Joe: They had a bridge come right out in the middle of the sand here, great beach.
Interviewer: Wow.
Joe: The [unintelligible 00:32:25] come along here, [whoosh] wiped that out. Matter of fact, the pillars are right down here, [00:32:30] down in front of Jules' house. Even look down you can see the pillars there yet.
Son: Some of the pillars are in the lagoon still sitting there.
Joe: This beach is like a boardwalk. You walk straight out like that over the sand, then you walk down into the sand. Now you got to walk over, look further by the [unintelligible 00:32:47]
Interviewer: Right. There was also a tavern up on Muir Woods Road too. You remember that one?
Joe: No, but it was right there where those redwood trees are. There's four or five [unintelligible 00:32:57]
Son: [crosstalk] About Redwood corner [unintelligible 00:32:59] Sharp, right? [00:33:00] Where the dipsy dips down.
Interviewer: Right on the edge of the road.
Joe: Yes. Right on the edge.
Interviewer: I seem to remember it was called The Redwood?
Joe: [unintelligible 00:33:04] a tavern was like a little place where you could stop.
Son: The Redwood Rest.
Interviewer: The Redwood Rest.
Joe: Where you could stop and have an orange or coke and a sandwich. It was real tiny. It was like 20 by 20.
Interviewer: Do you know who ran it?
Joe: I never stopped there. [unintelligible 00:33:18]
Interviewer: How about down--
Son: Then you get home and [unintelligible 00:33:21] [laughs]
Joe: One time I got off the bus, stopped by [unintelligible 00:33:23] Me and my cousin we were about I don't know, 11, 12 years old, I look up and I see this football. [unintelligible 00:33:32] For football, kicked my butt from here to China.
[laughter]
Anyway, I said, now let's get that. Let's get that football someday, we'll get off the bus and I'll-- So we got off the bus to get over there. You know where the hell it was? The top of milk cans laying sideways. Rusty and looks just like a football.
Interviewer: Oh, bet that didn't feel good.
Joe: We had to walk all the way down the road.
Interviewer: Now, did you walk down the Muir Woods Road the way it is today?
Joe: Yes. No. Well I did that day, but everybody-- we got out of the bus. [00:34:00]
Son: She's saying was it the same road as it is today?
Joe: Oh, yes. Exactly.
Son: Just not a paved, that's all.
Joe: No. It was paved. It was paved. When I got home, dad gave me hell. My cousin, man he got whipped like good. Uncle Jimbo gave Joe a spanking. Never mind. Take care of you [unintelligible 00:34:20]
[laughter]
If you ask for a [unintelligible 00:34:24] son, forget it.
Billy: People were too busy trying to survive.
Interviewer: Yes. It was a matter [00:34:30] of survival.
Billy: It wasn't that they were [unintelligible 00:34:32]
Joe: Now, I go pick these houses, a guy's got $5,000 worth of toys for the kids. I'm telling you. Fancy toys.
Billy: Things were different.
Joe: Shoot. Yes.
Interviewer: Things are different.
Joe: Yes. They are.
Interviewer: Doesn't mean they're better or worse. They're just different. That's all.
Joe: Oh, yes. I thank God that dad makes me that way. I appreciate the value of things. There's a lot of days guys have kids walk around with $20 in their pockets. I was lucky if I got 10 cents to buy a hot dog on [00:35:00] Friday at he Old Mill School, there was a little canteen there. My dad gave me a nickel or a dime. That's what it cost. I was a big shot then.
Son: Was it time to get into the Sequoia Theater?
Joe: Yes. Until I was a junior, cost me a dime to get into the theater. I should've been paying 25 cents when I was a high school junior, but I was small, so I used to get in free. Made sense.
[laughter]
Interviewer: That was a big night.
Joe: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: I even remember when things were like, when you go to the movies on Saturday for a nickel. [00:35:30] It's like, what happened to that?
Son: They'd laugh in your face now.
Billy: $6, $5.
Shirley: Six.
Billy: Six?
Shirley: $6.
Interviewer: Down near the entrance of the monument there was one other tavern. Have any recollections of that at all?
Joe: Yes. It's still standing there.
Interviewer: There was one right next to it too.
Joe: Man named Mr. Montgomery owned that. It was called the Muir Woods Inn. [00:36:00] They served dinners there and soft drinks, and Redwood they call them like these guys, soda and stuff like that. [unintelligible 00:36:15] The first one I remember [unintelligible 00:36:17]
Son: Is that the same Mrs. Montgomery that leased the inn now?
Interviewer: Yes.
Son: That's what I thought.
Interviewer: Next to that one--
Joe: Chelsea Montgomery I think her name was Chelsea Montgomery?
Interviewer: Yes. Next to that one was a dance hall [00:36:30] called Original Joe's.
Joe: Yes. Vaguely I remember that name. Like I said, I was doing [unintelligible 00:36:38] I was busy [unintelligible 00:36:42]
Interviewer: Apparently they were serving liquor during the Prohibition. Underhanded. I was curious.
Son: They didn't pass the word around too much about that place.
Interviewer: No, it got so lively that they had to close them down on weekends because it got to be--
Son: Too many people heard about it.
Interviewer: Too many people heard about it. Yes. It wasn't like a speakeasy where you could keep it quiet.
Billy: This one's pretty [00:37:00] loud down here from what Joe [unintelligible 00:37:01]
Son: Joe, can you have somebody [unintelligible 00:37:03]
Billy: No. Down here, the one that used to have--
Joe: Oh, the tavern.
Son: I remember Joe Sanas because kids could go in there too in the tavern.
Joe: Another thing they tried was roller skates too, but they [unintelligible 00:37:12] roller skates.
Son: Joe Sanas went in there. He was a real prankster. Always pulling something. He went riding in there on his horse one day, right inside.
Joe: Yes.
[laughter]
Son: Up to the bar on his horse.
Joe: [unintelligible 00:37:26]
Interviewer: When did that first open up, down there at [unintelligible 00:37:29] [00:37:30]
Joe: It was there when I was here. I don't know who the owner was then, but after we moved out of here, this Dr. O'Brian bought it. I don't know who was there before that.
Interviewer: When was the last year it was over?
Joe: Geez. I don't know.
Son: I'd say between '55 and '60.
Joe: I don't write this stuff down, so it's hard to--
Interviewer: No, that's okay. Just the remembrance [00:38:00] is fine. Thanks. I really appreciate it.
Son: Reckon we did pretty good, Joe.
[00:38:06] [END OF AUDIO]
Description
Interview with Joe Souza and family members about their dairy farm near Muir woods, interview conducted in 1989.
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