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Episode 4.3 - Tribal Affairs and Indigenous Engagement in the Northeast
Transcript
Patrick Shea: Hi everyone and welcome to the National Heritage Areas Podcast. This is the third episode of our 2021 season and today we're talking about tribal affairs in the northeast. I'm Patrick Shea, the Communications Coordinator for the NHA program and today in conversation we have three guests from Region 1, which is the North Atlantic-Appalachian Region of the National Park Service. First is Peter Samuel, our program manager for the NHA program in Region 1. And then we have Eric Chiasson, our Native Affairs Liaison, and Dr. David Goldstein, our Cultural Anthropology lead. First, I'll hand things off to Peter to tell us a little bit more about today's topic, and then we'll get to hear from Eric and David about the work that they do within native affairs. Peter Samuel: Thanks Patrick, it’s so great to have this opportunity to have this conversation today. We've been working with the heritage areas over the past year to really get them more focused on tribal nation connections and engagement and we have two guests today who work for the Park Service both the very heavily involved in tribal engagement--and by the way, you know, my role as the manager of the heritage area program in the northeast region and there's 23 heritage areas and not only are we working with the existing heritage areas to make sure that they are connecting with tribal nations--there are heritage areas that are doing feasibility studies that are looking to become heritage areas and we're really encouraging them to also work with tribal nations. So with me today is Eric Chiasson--I'll let him introduce himself, really great to have you here Eric and thanks so much for joining us. Eric Chiasson: Thank you Peter and thank you Patrick for having me on this morning. I'm Eric Chiasson, I'm the new tribal liaison officer in Region One of the of the National Park Service. I've been in this role since mid-September at this point. It's a large region; there's a lot going on in in the tribal relations space, and it's been very interesting and exciting to start to find my way around the region and get a handle on tribal relations. I've been working closely with David Goldstein in this in this regard, in fact this position had sort of began as an internship last year, but why don't I turn it over to David. David Goldstein: Good morning everyone and good morning Peter, Patrick, and thanks Eric. I'm David Goldstein, I am the ethnographer and cultural anthropologist for interior region one. I've been in this position for about four and a half years and when I came in we—I was a unit of one and one of the first things that I saw was the need to establish and think about what the national and regional priorities need to be for native relations in the northeast. This is the place where I want to say everything started in many cases, particularly for the way Native American story has ruled out since the arrival of Europeans, that is in many ways true, and so I know that that's a real tender spot and it's really important place and so one of the things we wanted to make sure that we did early on is establish an office--regional director’s office—and can oversee and understand the breadth of where native space touches the Park Service’s work. The National Heritage Areas program is one of them. And you know Eric is in a position where he does that work for us my work is really on advising on some areas that are related directly to cultural resource policy and its application in the in the National Park Service but native relations of course is a lot broader than that so cultural competency it is understanding constitutional law in American Indian law and some other things so I'm happy to have Eric's partnership to work with some guidance from regional directors office is terrific and interest from program director like Peter and his staff with Patrick to want to continue to talk about these things. Peter Samuel: Yeah great, thanks David and I and I just want to praise you if you don't mind you know you really I think helped open my eyes to realizing that all the land that we're on now is really tribal lands and I think you know it's something probably the majority of people don't really think about so and the other thing I think that you really underscored was that that the tribes really didn't go away I mean there's the tribal nations are still alive and well and you know they may have been displaced but there's still there's still here and the other piece of that is that even if there's not federally recognized tribes there's other maybe state recognized tribes--and not even you know they don't have the official designation at this point and I think what I've been trying to do is with the heritage areas is just raise that up a little bit so that--and as you know and because you've worked with some of these heritage areas in their efforts, some of them are quite conscious of this and more sophisticated in their ability to connect. And others, you know, still have a little bit of a learning curve to get there but I guess it is part of it, you know. And something that Patrick asked me about is, you know, how have you seen this change take place? Or, what still needs to happen to really raise people's consciousness about it and what should the heritage areas do, but also the Park Service as a whole--how can they really embrace this more? Eric Chiasson: Peter, thanks for the question…why don't I start by saying we're just observing that we're in a pretty unique point in our nation's history, right? And probably certainly in the history of the agency and the department to have native leadership at both department of interior level, and now at the level of the Park Service. So I think that you know in the context of sort of social justice consciousness, I think that it has been raised across the country. There there's a lot of opportunity here to raise awareness and to do the work that I think that many have hoped to be doing. And I think that we can find a lot of ways I think that there's a lot of support within the agency and outside of the agency for doing for doing this work…so, I want to turn it over to David… David Goldstein: I mean, I think you can't underestimate the times of living in…I also think that—you know, before I started working here I was in Detroit, Michigan working for the Park Service as an Urban Fellow and my awareness was raised to--it's my hometown, it’s home to the MotorCities National Heritage Area--and my awareness was raised to what it means to create and plan a city on top of native land. That is the story of Detroit, and the fact that there are still standing monuments…native people and wisdom revered there are sacred spaces within the city of Detroit and still exist. When that became aware…when I became aware of that and also working in a very tangential program, I realized, like, ‘oh my…’-the opportunities exist, you know, as you mentioned, there are 24 indigenous nations that still hold title to their lands in this region. This region is home to 43 nations and the Park Service on our projects consult with about 52 and do we do that well, it's growing. It's been fair to middling, I would say…I think I always described the Park Service and agency space where we're kind of in the middle: EPA in this region does an incredible amount of work that is superlative. They have a very active tribal relations program that has been thriving for 30 years. The Park Service in some ways is late to the game. We have colleagues in the Fish and Wildlife Service—next to many of your heritage areas and incorporated in some of them by boundary and by nearest neighbor--that those, a lot of those agencies have very sophisticated tribal relations programs that we would have had, not really had for a long time. I think that the opening up to the future is about empowering citizens to learn some basic competency skills to understand and comprehend, even just as you expressed, like, they're still here--that's the big one for most native people. The other one is we're on your land and getting, even for myself, like, I think five years ago I would have said the Park Service is responsible for things within our boundaries for our lands. And I think now I would say my language has changed too, to, it has boundaries on native land where we have jurisdiction. That is what we have in the case of the heritage areas you are in partnership with. Partners occupy the cultural and cultural resource space to tell stories across landscape and the origin of that landscape was started by tens of thousands of years of human occupation many of those people are still there living in those communities and just you know that the opacity of indigeneity in the northeast. It is fascinating to me so many of our place names in the northeast still remain. As my colleague Eric pointed out to me the other day American history can be told in three life spans: Thomas Jefferson, Harriet Tubman, and Ronald Reagan. Those people are those people are barely separated at all between their death and birthdays and that's just an important perspective to think about American history across 3 lifespans particularly in this region is a tradition of 7 generations it takes 7 generations to restore land and to make things effective that's the thinking in those communities when they're stable and not facing poverty unemployment discrimination reservations under-funded mandates unrecognized treaties etc. so I think time and space are the things that that that we as employees and the agency are trying to get a heads around when it comes to interfacing and working productively with native communities and then lastly I think translating that ethic to our partners right we had a big conversation yesterday with RTCA project we have been working really closely with and the management plan that been translating that worldview and that way of rethinking the resource mission of the agency to bring it into a closer alignment with some traditional native values if they if they exist you know. That would be the goal and I think we're headed in that direction. Peter Samuel: Well I'm thinking, I mean, circling back to the heritage areas and specifically the feasibility studies I'm thinking about it because I just actually reviewed the Finger Lakes feasibility study that you know the Park Service has been working on for quite a while the Denver service center and you know in reading--and I know there was a lot of effort putting put into connecting with what twelve different tribal organizations as part of it and you know and we're also working with the Downeast Maine up in Washington and Hancock counties you know and maybe to both of you how best can we make sure that that you know we're connecting we're making connections but does that imply that as this these projects get implemented that they really you know come together and involve the tribal nations are indigenous people as partners. David Goldstein: I would say that the Finger Lakes initiative for their feasibility studies since I've been here in this region is one of the most ambitious attempts 2 have the federal government try to engage the members of the Six Nations, the Haudenosaunee probably for the federal government in in maybe 200 years the hood is Shawnee um we learned a lot from that feasibility study and most of what we learned is what we don't know I laud the work that in particular are planners like Martha Droege, who has a background in state department diplomacy working embassies she used every skill in her book to work on getting responses. I would say she you know even though it doesn't appear in the document we made in some cases like first contact for the first time for this agency with multiple nations, and you know Eric I think if you want to can you talk a little bit substantively about what that was like to work with Joe Stahlman? Eric Chiasson: Yeah, it was interesting in that in that my by initial impression was that it sort of or a very much brought home for me the reality that tribal relations across our region one are very uneven. We're in we're in various stages of development and cultivation of those relationships and I think that our conversation with Joe Stahlman really illustrated that the reality for a tribal historic preservation officer like Dr. Stahlman is that resources are limited and time that can be devoted to engaging the different government agencies who are or reaching out to the tribe that's also limited in a very real sense you know they are in in some ways and in some fronts under siege in a sense--just that there are a lot of demands on their on their time and there's this new frontier of renewable energy projects that are that are confronting a lot of tribal nations and in our spaces--and no different in that regard and they're very much, you know, navigating that space like everyone else, and figuring out how to do that effectively moving forward. And one of the things that is a priority for us is to find ways to help to expand their capacity for doing so, but that's a complicated, that’s a complicated matter. And you know, we're working knowing with within our region and also with within or with other agencies to sort of, to figure out what is…what is a complicated a problem. So yeah, it was definitely an eye opening experience and a very valuable one for me. David Goldstein: So Joe Stahlman is the tribal preservation office for Seneca nation and we had the opportunity to listen to him and he’s a pretty amazing character he's amazing person first of all I what I think he highlighted in this story to reiterate what Eric said--it's time you know…and if this feasibility study had not been under the COVID time, it would already be done. And so I would say in fact again, it may be not reflected in the document, but in terms of what we know about the Haudenosaunee in New York State and their interest in federal resources…It's a lot more than we didn't have before and that's great. So the time was really important I think the other one is people they don't have resources so trying to make it as easy as possible, it is a good one and then in terms of turning it to some practical things for heritage area people—look, it's all congressional you know, park service…I don't know maybe a quarter of the equation, ¾ of it comes out of Congress right? And so again, the Constitution of the United States provides that there are three sovereignty's recognized: there's the federal government, they're the tribes, and the states--in that order, okay. And that's important--the congressionals have these drives in their districts and when they set up an entity to propose to be the managing entity a heritage area they had better be asking the questions where is the tribal engagement whose land are you want who are we talking to that is really important and from that ground moment of what congressional authority can provide for the heritage areas that would set the stage for way better travel relations going forward--because it would have a sort of two power approach: it would be the executive operating from a perspective of what the Park Service and the secretary and carrier can provide for support for heritage areas but it would be that congressional mandate to actually say, ‘look, we're going to come into your space we want to tell these stories were going to do it with these resources now we need you at the table’ and I can't underestimate that that would change it up…it would really change it up. Peter Samuel: Well I don't disagree with you David I just, so I'm looking you know also to, as you say, Harry directors or their partners to how best to like start to make a difference? David Goldstein: So, I can get two pieces and I've spoken about this before with you all and one is the native act of 2016. The native act Native American tourism and visitor experience act this actually provides it provides guidance to programs--RTCA national heritage areas and the rest of the Park Service to engage in native tourism in our program spaces we are supposed to be doing that as directed by the director of the Park Service and so in fact and that act was set up just at the end of the last section of the Obama administration and it was processed and brought forward into the Trump administration and actually we've done a lot of work in this area. So one of the things that the Native Act provided was to stand up the American Indian and Alaska native tourism association…the park services directly partnered with them just like with the heritage area program it's passed through money it comes from Congress we are here to support them they have an eastern region board member they have active programs…with the Saint Regis Mohawk they have active programs actually now in Maine with Mi'kmaq and Passamaquoddy Nations--there is now a Penobscot ambassador who I think has gone into cultural resources training program. So there are, at that nexus I would say like it's been quiet for the last 3-4 years but coming forward particularly in this administration I think you're gonna see enter step forward and I think you're going to see AIANTA as a partner in every program to help bridge that gap that's a great resource it's a huge resource I think I think the other one that we hope that we will see particularly in this in this in this this administration is that there is a huge call for interagency collaboration and cooperation we have been doing that in tribal affairs in this region for since I started here pretty effectively but I think you know you have helped Peter bring that heritage community to my desk and now I think with Eric and his face and me and this one we have the opportunity to actually start to direct people into real collaborative space with tribal nations that are prepared for this. Peter Samuel: So you know we're going to talk about the Washington County heritage area proposal and you know we directed them pretty quickly to the customer quality, because you're on their land, right? And anyway, so that, I think, has been I think that there will be more resources coming forward and I think the other one to think about is coach training is when we're doing training for four area work just invite the tribal governments I I'm sure somebody will send people they would be thrilled to have an opportunity to just see something different yeah I mean…I do sense that were at the beginning of something that's going to grow I mean it can't help but grow. And you know with Eric in your new role I mean it can't help but get raised up, and you know the fact that Eric, you talked directly to the regional director and the regional director staff that makes a huge difference I mean we need to be able to you know shine a brighter light on some of these things. And I guess I wanted to turn it back to Patrick, because I know we…we may be talking maybe he wants to ask another question or get us in there another direction--I don't know, Patrick, I'm turning back to you to…to give us some thoughts. Patrick Shea: Thanks Peter and thanks everyone for all that you've shared so far--yeah I guess I'd, I'd like to add one kind of piece to the conversation which is talking about land acknowledgements amidst all these questions and what they can do and what they can't do. Eric Chiasson: Sure and why don't I start by just drawing attention to a guidance document that that tribal and cultural affairs had had put together just you know in in in in recent months I think that this was in response to you know growing interest going with growing interest across parks and partners who may be external I think what you'll find the document or are some guiding principles and suggestions for how you how you might go about putting together a land acknowledgement in consultation with the partner tribal nations for the parks and the different spaces that you're in but it's certainly it's not a one size fits all sort of sort of situation. And I think that what you may find is some tribal partners are more interested in than others in in doing them—I think that that the reality is there are there are just different points of view on land acknowledgements, and I think that there's a there's legitimacy to each of them. David Goldstein: Thanks Eric, I was just going to add that I think what we're hearing mostly from the nations that we work with is there has to be a relationship and if there is no relationship there is no land acknowledgement worth saying yeah this trend for landing knowledge of the United states is growing and it will continue to grow particularly in as in program space where we're talking about partnership where it's not federal land that we're discussing there are some different kinds of considerations the federal government is always been in a relationship with native people whether native people or the federal government is likely not right that's an important piece that that we work with but you know in a program space with partnerships it's not always that way and I know a lot of partners are getting a lot of pressure from their constituents and from their boards to produce land acknowledgements but producing them requires relationships and you need to be talking directly with tribal staff tribal citizens councils you'd have access to those kinds of people in order to really make a land acknowledgement that is worth having and I think that's the that's really the place to start--that's the place to pivot from and that's the place of strength for both the agencies that want to have them or the community organization or the museum or the heritage here that wants to have landing knowledge been stating to make sure that they have those relationships in place for growing and there's a commitment to growth with the tribal partners they're working with. Peter Samuel: I guess, you know, this is making me realize that that you know, what some advice that we can provide to heritage areas who at least have an interest I talk about the work that we do, and just even personally? David Goldstein: This is personal work—I do it myself…Putting yourself into tribal space for non-Native people is very difficult--it is difficult work we understand why yellow paint in the room is that for sellers on this land it's not ours would you approach you approach the work with that perspective then there is the fear of that coming at you right the amount Jewish white man and I am a worried about but that fear is always met with grace um you're working with people who have survived an incredible art history that was not of their own making. And so I would say it's the position that you have as a person when you come to the work it's work and that's the place to start. And honesty and you're going to put your foot in it--it happens in this work yesterday I got yelled at by two fabulous people I learned a ton while they were yelling at me it was worth it--it was worth it I mean it's not yelling it's instructional is what it is it's coming from a place of grace that they do not have to talk to us they do not have to be here with us and they do not have to acknowledge that we're here still they don't and I think when you come to the table with that respect it will always be met with grace and my world is so much richer because I see Indian country in the world that I live in in New England that I had never seen before. And I think that you'll find that that approach being open to seeing the landscape you think, you know, through different eyes is what you gain by doing this work right doing it well doing it consistently and thinking through what you're doing and asking questions that come from a position of honesty and respect. Eric Chiasson: I always try I try to encourage people to have it to have an open mind to have a critical mind and to try to embrace different perspectives and to place them in in the context of just this this growing consciousness about social justice and environmental justice issues that are that are very much defining our moment I think that people will find when they pay attention to events that are increasingly visible in this country and bordering countries you know I II I know there are a lot of people are becoming aware about the realities of Indigenous experiences you know unfortunately it comes through revelations about mass graves at Kamloops in in in British Columbia I know that that the department of interior has embarked on a boarding school initiative and a report will be released next year and that will be will be an opportunity to have a conversation that would which be in an easy conversation you know oftentimes the are these are hard truths, right?
Description
Region 1 (North Atlantic-Appalachian) NHA Program Manager Peter Samuel joins two guests in discussing how the program can best work with Indigenous communities in our cultural resource preservation and heritage space.
Dr. David Goldstein is an anthropologist with the National Park Service currently serving as the Tribal and Cultural Affairs Specialist in the Northeast Region. Eric Chiasson is the Regional Tribal Liaison in Region 1, and an enrolled member of the Eskasoni First Nation of Mi’kmaq.
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