Audio
Oral History Project - Frazier, Stewart H. Jr. Part 2
Transcript
Interview NRGNPP 022
File # NRGNPP 022-T
TAPE TWENTY-NO
Rev. Steward H. Frazier
Interviewer:
Paul J. Nyden
Beckley, W. Va. 25801
November 12, 1980
— The second of two reels for Interview Twenty—Two begins here. This part was conducted on November 25, 1980.
PN: Rev. Frazier, maybe we could follow up some of the material that you were discussing in the last interview. First, I was wondering if you could describe your experiences at McKendree Hospital, when you were the chaplain there.
SF: Well that was a wonderful experience. I had been asked at various times if I would come and just give 'em a service. I kept putting it off. But finally I had the time, and I decided, well, I’ll run up there this Sunday, and I’ll get this off my back. And so I rode the local train, Number Fourteen — just the even numbers run east; the odd numbers run west. And I had planned to conduct the service and get back on Thirteen, and then I would be through with McKendree. But I was so overwhelmed with what I found there, and the needs that I found, I not only spent the whole Sunday afternoon and rode the late train back to Thurmond, but I had agreed to go back to the home each convenient Sunday. And finally I resigned a local church that I was pastoring, and gave that time to the institution and its people. And another church that I was pastoring down at Stone Cliff - oh, the church that I resigned was at Thayer — and the church at Stone Cliff finally went down because the mines blew out, the people moved away. And I found myself giving full—time to the old folks at the institution. And for a long period of time, I conducted three services each Sunday two services up on the ward and then, two services in the chapel, I beg your pardon, and one service on the ward. I say on the ward, this was on the ward where the immobile patients were. And 1 carried the service to them. And then I would go on Wednesday evenings for a mid—week service. And during this time, I was employed by the C. and O. Railway. And it was just my good fortune to have a boss—man who was in sympathy with what I was doing. And he allowed me all the free time possible. And so I was never penalized on my job for the time that I spent minstering to the inmates. And this was, this was a most wonderful experience. But here it started out as just a service to get rid of something. And all of a sudden, here I find myself going full—time.
PN: What was the year that you conducted the first service there?
SF: This was in, I guess 41.
PN: And how long did you continue?
SF: I, I stayed with the institution until the institution was finally integrated, and they moved the older, old folks back to Huntington. Well, they spread them out, carried some to Denmar [near Hillsboro in Pocahontas County] and other places. But the, the institution per se, they relocated back in Huntington. This was in the fift—, the early fifties.
PN: And they closed down McKendree?
SF: They closed, yea, they down completely.
PN: Do you know what year exactly that was?
SF: Not as I can remember. That must have been in 51 - '50 or '51.
PN:And do you know what year that McKendree changed from a hospital to become an old folks' home.
SF: No, not being associated with the institution at that time, I didn't pay much attention to that.
PN: Was that a negative step, in some ways, do you think that they closed down McKendree, and took that facility away? Or do you think that was basically a positive thing?
SF: Do you mean when they moved the old folks back?
PN: No, this was a positive step. You see, because prior to that it was a segregated institution. The white people, older white people, were at Sweet Springs, and our people were there at McKendree. And so when they integrated the institutions, this was a, this was more positive. And oh, I missed the association with the, with the people and so on, but I was glad for them because this meant for a better, a better life for them.
PN: When, in the years between 1941 and 1951, that you were travel ling to McKendree every Sunday and Wednesday, I was wondering if you could just describe what the town looked like. Or, is it correct to call it a town?
ST: Well, it was just, just a little, just a little, a little community. No, it wasn't, wasn't a town, just a little community. Cause the hospital was the only thing there.
PN: Were there any stores, or anything like that there?
SF: Maybe at one point, there vas a little concession across the tracks from the, where the train stopped. But this was just an indi—, an individual type of thing. You know, how people see probably an opportunity to make themselves a little, a little extra change. And I don't know who the people were that lived there, but they had a little concession stand there for the benefit of people that would be getting on and off of the train.
PN: Did the people that were employed at the institution at that time, did they live in McKendree?
SF: Yes, yes, they, they had rooms there at the, you see, what, what used to be the nurse's home and the doctor or staff quarters this was converted into living quarters for the employees. The superintendent of the institution and his staff lived, lived there, and the employees. Oh, they may have been, maybe one or two employees that drove in. But for the most part, they, it was a live—in situation.
PN: Were most, or all, of the employees Black at that time?
SF: With the exception, for a while, of the farmer. Now down below the institution, there was a farmer. This was a carry—over from the old hospital days. He was resident farmer.
PN: A farmer?
SF: Yes, and for a while after the institution was changed, why he farmed, run the farm for the institution. But that didn't last too, too long. And aside from him and his family, why then the other employees were Black.
PN: Did the farmer grow most of the food?
SF: A goodly portion of it.
PN: Really?
SF: I don't know just how much, how much acreage they had there. But they, they had a pretty good—sized farm. And this was all that he did. He raised vegetables, and he raised hogs, and chickens and so on, yea. And it was, it was a pretty nice affair. But then as the appropriations grew smaller, you see, now when the, when the old folks, when the West Virginia Home for the Aged, of course, moved in, I think they moved them in there on the appropriation for the state hospital, which at that time I'm pretty certain was $56, 000. But then they didn't have an appropriation that large afterwards. And so there wasn't money enough then, and it wasn't productive either, to main— , continue to maintain the farm and the farmer. And so then they moved away.
PN: Is there anything else about McKendree that you think is significant to mention?
SF: Well, I think, I think this, I think this perhaps is significant. Cause we had some of the finest people there as staff as, as you would find. The first superintendent that I worked with was a Dr. George Banks from Huntington. And he wasn't there too long after, after I started going in, until the, they appointed a Methodist preacher and a retired Army officer, Lt. Theodore Thornhill. And he was, he was a most unusual person, and the care for the people. Now the institution wasn't as clean as he thought it should have been, and he spent a lots of time and money cleaning up those to make it presentable and desirable place for the inmates. And I will never forget how rigid he was with the employees. He didn't allow the old people to be abused by the employees. And there had been a few times that he had dismissed employees on the spot for their apparent abuse of the inmates. And he never allowed anything on his table, or the staff's table, that was not on the inmates' table. And this was most unique, because in so many instances, why they have the finer things for their, for the staff, and the inmates have what's left. So I think this would be something that would be worthy of mentioning. And it became the last stop for the Institutions Investigating Committee. They always wound up their tour of the institutions at McKendree so that they would have dinner at the Home for the Aged Colored People at McKendree. So that gives you an idea how nice the place was.
PN: Was Mr. Thornhill white, or was he Black?
SF: He was Black, mm.
PN: You mentioned that when you were very young that you went to McKendree as a patient.
SF: Oh yes. My mother took me to the hospital. In fact, she at one time was employed at the hospital. And I developed this adenoid and tonsil problem. And she carried me to the McKendree Hospital. That's where I lost my adenoids and tonsils. And so even though I was just a youngster, going back there in later years to carry a religious service to a group of old people had a sentimental touch to it.
PN: And how old were you then when you were in the hospital as a patient?
SF: I was between six and seven years old. So as I'd walk around through there, through the halls where, I had the memory of one time that I was down in the operating room.
PN: Was the hospital segregated at that time in any way?
SF: Well yes, most everything was. The colored people, or Black people, they were on wards to themselves just like the, just the white people were.
PN: Were the employees, such as nurses and doctors, did they stay either on the white section or the Black section, or did they move around?
SF: Well now, they, yes, they, they had, they had their separate quarters; yes, they had their separate quarters. Now I don't know of any, of any Black nurses at that, at that time. But the cooks and the orderlies and the maids and so on they were all Black.
PN: They were all Black?
SF: Mm. Of course, this was the, this was the trend. You consider the period of time that you’re thinking back into, and this was not an unusual thing .
PN: What years are you talking about, the twenties?
SF: I'm talking about before the twenties, yes, before the twenties. So this was not frowned on too largely, because it was the commonly—accepted thing.
PN: Was that true up through the twenties and the thirties also?
SF: Yea.
PN: When was McKendree Hospital originally built, do you know?
SF: No, I don't, I don't know too much about that history, because when I became old enough, got old enough to know, to notice what was going on, the hospital was there. Now this Clinton Tinsley that I referred you to some time back, now he could give you that background information.
PN: And after 1951, when the institution finally closed down, what, what happened to the physical buildings there?
SF: The vandals wrecked it. To have gone back there a year after the place was abandoned, and to remember what it was like two years before, you couldn't help but shed tears.
PN: That quickly?
SF: Yea.
PN: So you couldn't even recognize it really after…
SF: No, no. Oh, the old structure stood, but then people just went there and carried stuff off and destroyed all of it. This, this was a, was a beautiful, was a beautiful place there.
PN: The pictures I 've seen, it seemed to be a really beuatiful place. Let me switch to another institution, if that would be OK.
SF: All right.
PN: When we were speaking last time, you talked a little bit about the Dunglen Hotel. I was wondering if you could describe that a little bit more fully, and everything that happened there, and what that meant to the community.
SF: Well, I don't think I would be able to, to describe everything that went on there, because there were so many things that happened. But the Dunglen Hotel in Thurmond was, this was just like going to Philadelphia or New York. This was, this was the meeting place of businesses, the coal operators sit there; buyers for the company stores [went] to the Dunglen Hotel to meet the salesmen well, they called them “drummers" then. They would bring their samples, and they had all these display rooms there, and they would spread their wares out. And the people did their buying. NOW I guess the Dunglen Hotel in Thurmond had the same kind of prominence, considering the difference in the time, as the Greenbrier enjoys now. And I've heard em talk about the poker games that went on and on and on. But just it is known at the Greenbrier, you could go there to the Dunglen Hotel and you wouldn't have to leave. You could get anything that you wanted, and some people got lots of things that they didn't want. But it was, it was, it was a great place. And there was a bridge that spanned the Loop Creek and went over to the train stop on, on the South Side. And of course, at that time, there were passenger trains up and down Loop Creek, and they all stopped for persons going to the Dunglen Hotel. And to have seen that place at night, now this was something beautiful. Because the bridge was, had lights on it, from the hotel all the way across to the main station, railroad station, up on the north side. And they turned those lights on at train time. Of course, this was, it was not only, not so much for the beauty, but for the safety of people who, that walked across there. Because very few people dared to cross New River going into the hotel or going over into the little settlement they called Ballyhack.
PN: What was it?
SF: Ballyhack, that was, that was, there was a little town, a little settlement…
PN: Ballyhack?
SF: Yea, and they called it Ballyhack. And that too had lots of colorful history too. Because there was a saloon over there, and one place, and one great huge building they called the "Blackhawk. And this was, was where lots of things went on too. It's just, it's unbelievable to see what is left, and remembering what, what used to be there.
PN: Where was Ballyhack? Was that on the Thurmond side of the river?
SF: This was on what they called the South Side.
PN: The South Side?
SF: Yes, this was on the same side as the hotel. You see the town of Thurmond was all across, all across the river over to the north side, where the passenger station, railroad station was.
PN: And the bridge you were talking about, it went over Loop Creek?
SF: Yes, this was just, this was a small, this was a small bridge that connected the Dunglen Hotel with the, the railroad coming across from Thurmond. They had a little, they had a little, little canopy of affair there with seats, and the people would wait under that shelter for the Loop Creek passenger train to come across from Thurmond, and go up Loop Creek or to return from Price Hill back into Thurmond…
PN: Say, if people wanted to go from the Dunglen Hotel to the main station over at Thurmond…
SF: Yea, they walked across that bridge that spanned the Loop Creek, and then proceeded to, on across the, the big bridge into, into Thurmond.
PN: Then they'd walk across the big bridge that's still there today?
SF: Yea, that's still there today. See, it had a walkway on it, and, and it had the lights all the way.
PN: On the big bridge?
SF: Oh yes, oh yes. Nobody walked across there unprotected after dark.
PN: When you mentioned Ballyhack, who lived there? Was that railroad workers?
SF: Well, yea, there were lots of railroad workers that lived there. And, I don't know how many houses. Well, just everywhere there was a little space, there was, there was a house there.
PN: That was down towards the south of the Dunglen Hotel?
SF: Yes, back in the direction that the highway follows now, coming up Loop Creek.
PN: Was it mostly Black people or white people that lived in Ballyhack?
SF: It was Black and white, yes.
PN: And you'd mentioned Weewind before. That was further up, wasn't it?
SF: Yes now, no, no. Now this was still on the South Side, but about a mile or so below Thurmond. Weewind was almost straight across from Thurmond.
PN: And that's where Arbuckle…
SF: That's where Arbuckle Creek empties into New River at.
PN: And who lived there, anybody in particular?
SF: No, I didn't know too much, I didn't know too much about, about that place. Now, this was just a little mining community, but I do believe that
PN: Weewind was?
SF: Yes.
PN: Mining?
SF: Back in the twenties, some people by the name of Bear, operated the mine there for a while.
PN: What, Bear?
SF: Bear, yea . That was, well see most of the little places that were beginning to fade out, and finally became non—existent. It's only in the minds of people who did remember it.
PN: And you said that the Dunglen was a pretty wide open place, or something.
Maybe you could elaborate a little bit on that, if you wanted to.
SF: Well, they, they did some of every, some of everything there. They did some of everything there. Just like you find, well, on a smaller scale, you could compare it with Las Vegas.
PN: It must have been pretty lively.
SF: Oh yes, yes it was lively. And when I was in my early teens, I worked at the Dunglen Hotel as a porter. The man that operated the hotel at that time was a railroader. His name was Robert Higgins. He and his family operated the hotel. But of course, the, this was the, the prominence and so on had begun to fade out. Now that was, it wasn't the big thing that it had been in times past, or he would have never been able to have gotten a hold of it. And toward the last, it became more or less just more or less a rooming house.
PN: Really?
SF: Mm.
PN: You worked there for a couple of years?
SF: Oh about a year. For $25 a month, and board and room. But I was too young to occupy my room at the hotel. I had to report to my Mama, my mother's home every evening shortly after 7:00. I went on duty at 7:00 in the morning, and stayed on duty till 7:00 in the evening. But my mother didn't think that that was a desirable place for a kid 15 years old to spend the night by himself, so I had to [laughs] to sleep at home.
PN: Where did they serve meals? Did they have big, big dining rooms?
SF: Yes, they had, yes, they had a big dining room. I don't know how many waiters [and] waitresses that they must have employed there. But it was, it was it was a sumptuous place. Were most of the employees Black at the time, or…?
SF: Yes, yes. They, they had Black and white employees. But the Black employees were maids, porters, and bell boys, and handymen, and maintenance people. But here again, this was not a unique thing in itself, because this was, you know, [the] pattern for the, for the time. And I guess that those people were just as proud of working at the Dunglen Hotel, as lots of people enjoy the same prestige now working in some, in some of the more prestigious positions. They had their own power plant, and their own ice—making plant. Then they had a small farm too along the, along the river bank. They raised their hogs, and plus they, the feed cost, they fed the scraps from the, from the hotel to the hogs. Of course, they had to supplement with other, other food. But then this was how that they, they managed it.
PN: The hotel owned the farm, and the…
SF: Yea, yea, mm.
PN: How many people could stay at the hotel, if it was full?
SF: Oh I, I, I wouldn't have an idea how many would at the capacity then. But I do know from the conversations that I've had with people who were much older, there were times when you couldn't get a room.
PN: What was the year that you were working there - 1925?
SF: Yea 1925, '26.
PN: And at that time, it was beginning to…
SF: Oh yes, oh yes, it was, the bottom had begun dropping. See because here you just coming into the, to the Depression. And it was on its way, on its way out.
PN: And this transition you mentioned between being strictly a hotel, and being a rooming house, had already begun to take place?
SF: Oh yes, it had already begun to, begun to take place.
PN: But you could still get a room for an evening, if you wanted to?
SF: Oh yes.
PN: If you were passing through on a train?
SF: Yes, yes. At that time, there was no problem getting a room. If you had, you had the, the, the money, you could get a room all right.
PN: What did it cost to get a room at that time?
SF: Well now, I don't know what the higher—priced rooms were, but two or three dollars for the cheaper rooms. There were certain sections, you know, where it was kind of rough. Those rooms were, were a little cheaper. And in that part, why you was there almost at your own -risk too. [laughs]
PN: You mean right in the hotel there were real different sections?
SF: Oh yes, yes. There were some residents who were not allowed on the, in the higher class section.
PN: Really?
SF: Oh yea. Street people, they didn't allow them up. Now they, they were up on the third floor, and then the, the higher class people, see, had the, the better part up there of the hotel.
PN: So that wasn't necessarily segregated by race?
SF: Oh no, no, no. It was, see now, it just was not, a Black person renting a room at the Dunglen Hotel this was just out of the question. See, because there was, you understand, this was still back in the, in the period of segregation. And so they didn't have any problem because the Black folk knew not to, not go there expecting to rent a room. To be a maid, bellhop, or porter — well this, this was the extent. And then they had quarters for the Black people to live in. This was a huge building a few hundred yards from the hotel. And this was where all the Black employees stayed. Of course, the white employees stayed in the main hotel; they had certain sections there for them too.
PN: What was the other building you referred to? Was it like a boarding house?
SF: Yea, well they, they called it which I guess was the proper name for it — they called it “The Quarters”. This is where the, where the
Blacks stayed.
PN: Was that owned by the hotel also?
SF: Yes, that was, yea, that was owned by the hotel.
PN: Say some, you know, Black person was travelling through on the train, and wanted to stop at Thurmond overnight. Was there a hotel that he or she could go to?
SF: Yes, now over on the, on the Thurmond side, or the north side, there was a, a restaurant and a rooming house, just a short distance from the, from the passenger station, I mean this is where Black people stayed.
PN: What was the name of that, do you remember?
SF: I don't think it had any particular name. It just was sort of a combination affair — the store in the lower part and the restaurant, and then upstairs, there were rooms for rent. It, just a rooming house more or less, sort of a combination rooming house. It didn't have any particular name.
PN: Do you remember when we were speaking the previous time, you talked that, or you mentioned that there was a, that church services were held in the basement of the Dunglen where there was a room?
SF: No, the original services started in, I guess it would have been the recreation room at the, in the service quarters. And it started as sort of a literary society. And from that, they commenced to having prayer meetings, which caught on pretty well. And then they decided to, to organize a Sunday School and a church. So then they went across the river then, and they got permission to hold religious services in the, I guess it would have been considered the lobby of this, this, this rooming house upstairs. And from there then, they worked out plans to establish a church and for, but when they outgrew that place, then they got permission to conduct religious services in the county schoolhouse across, they went back across, came back across the river and used the, the county schoolhouse for a number of years. And then in the early twenties, a group of people got together and they got, they were given a little land from the McKe11 heirs. And they built a church building, still on the, on the South Side — just up the tracks a little ways from what used to be the old Blackhawk. Now this was a dive, sort of, we would call it now a jungle. But they built a church, and they had good attendance. In fact, the old church building still stands. But there's only just one Black person now living in Thurmond. But there's a minister who, up until last year, continued to try to have services there, because there were a few people just out of sentiment, see, would go, go back there. And I was converted and joined a church there at Thurmond. And this is where I married my childhood schoolmate, sweetheart; we were married in that church. And a year after, just about a year after we were married, I commenced preaching. I preached my first sermon in that little church.
PN: Was that 1929?
SF: No, this was in 1932. We married in 1931, the ninth day of August. And on the third Sunday in June of the next year, I started the ministry.
PN: When you mentioned that the congregation, or church, was originally founded as a literary society, and met in "The Quarters, what year was that?
SF: This carries me back now before this, I believe I remember Mother telling me that in 1912 or 1913.
PN: The year it started?
SF: Yea. Because it was during the time when she was first employed at the, at the hotel. And this, these were the early years that she was, that she was employed there.
PN: What did she do when she was working there?
SF: She was a maid?
PN: And she lived, and you lived right in Thurmond, on the South Side there?
SF: She lived at the, at the, at the quarters. See now, I, of course, did not live with her. I lived with my grandmother up in Minden, West Virginia. I was a pretty good—sized boy — I must have been six or seven years old - before 1 knew anything about Thurmond. Because it was long about that time when my mother took me; and of course she had left the hospital then, and she had worked at the, at the, I meant to say the hotel, she had worked at the hospital for, after…
PN: Before then?
SF: After that time. And I guess it was because of her acquaintance with the hospital that made it easier for her to take me. That, of course, was the only hospital that was available to us too during those years. I guess the other, the other closest hospital was down in the Montogmery area.
PN: During this whole period then in the late teens and the twenties, what, what would you say, or what role did the B lack church play there in Thurmond?
SF: Well the, the Black church was, it was a stablizing force in the community — well—attended and supported. There were lots of transients too in Thurmond. Lots of people, mostly out of, out of Virginia, that worked, personnel on the railroad. And they worshipped at the, at the church. And they would go back to their home churches, as they call it, for the summer homecomings, or the anniversaries or something like that. But then they worshipped and supported the church. And it was meaningful during those years.
PN: Were there any Black—owned businesses in Thurmond or the area?
SF: The store that I mentioned earlier and the combination rooming house and shoe shop. It was a Black, what do you call them, shoemaker. there in Thurmond. And this was all of the, this was all of the businesses.
PN: Those three?
SF: Yea, yea.
PN: So it was a rooming house on the north side?
SF: Yea.
PN: And the shoe shop on the north side?
SF: The shoe shop, for a while, was on the South Side. And then finally, in the later years, this old gentleman set up business over on the South Side [meaning the north side] . He was in business there until the, until there was a fire back in the, in the twenties that, that destroyed: the drugstore, the general mercantile store, the shoe shop, theater, and so on. And he than had to, had to find another location. And this is when he found a suitable place over on the South Side. In fact, he was in…
PN: The South Side?
SF: On the [correcting himself] north side, in the basement then of the, what had been the rooming house and, combination rooming house and store, he had his shoe shop.
PN: The store that you mentioned that was Black—owned, was that over on the north side?
SF: Yes, that was on the north side.
PN: Was that connected with the restaurant, or was that a sep—, and the rooming house, was that a separate…
SF: Well, I don' t know too much about the set—up. I think maybe there were several people in this to—, in this together. And just like you find in some of the modern complexes; you get two or three people that, that have a business in a general location. But that was, that was all of the, all of the businesses. In fact there was no opportunity, or no particular reason for any other, any, any kind of business there.
PN: you were talking briefly before about the roads being built, in the CCC and WPA, I was wondering if you could just say a couple of words about, you know, the role of WPA.
SF: Well, see that was a sort of relief valve for people during the Depression, and this took a lots of people off of direct relief. And they, wherever there was a little road to be built or other, some of the, some of the, the communities had sanitary work that was done by people on the WPA. And there Isn't really much to, to say about it, because it was just sort of a stop—gap, you see, between starvation and walking around, and making, eking out an existence. It was one of the, you know, one of the political things that happened for, to help the economy during that period of time.
PN: And they'd hire both white and Black people, didn't they, to work?
SF: Yea, yea, of course, your politics made the difference as to whether you got a job or not — just like it, just like it is now. [laughs] If your politics were right, why you got a job on the road. If they weren't, why you got a, some kind of a subsistence check.
PN: You said that most of the work that WPA did was in building roads?
SF: Yea, building roads and shoring up embankments that were sliding in, and so on.
PN: Were there separate crews for Blacks and whites, or did they work together?
SF: No, no, they, they all worked together then.
PN: That was pretty much what I wanted to ask you. There are about two minutes left on this tape. Is there anything else you want to add?
SF: No, I don't, I don't think there's anything more that I can, that I can add to that. Maybe you've got another question that you would, about something that you'd like to touch on.
PN: One other quick thing you mentioned before, I was wondering if you could discuss this — that there was an explosion at Red Ash, and they renamed the town after that?
SF: Yea, Rush Run. Well, now I was too young to know much of the back— ground about that. See, that's just what I picked up after years that I got old enough to get around and, and discuss and hear people discuss the thing. But this is principally what, what happened, what happened there.
PN: And they renamed it so…
SF: Well, there's lots of places that they had bad accidents and they closed them down for a while, then they'd rename 'em. And of course this made it more attractive, made it easier for, to hire people, see. Because a lots of people would not know anything about a place under a new name. But if you would tell them that this was such—and—such a place that exploded, why then maybe they wouldn't want to go to work there.
[End of Tape]
Description
African american, Railroading 1929-1969, Thurmond, McKendree Hospital, Black Churches
Date Created
11/25/1980
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