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Norman “Norm” and Anita (Nay) Tom | Oral History
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Norman “Norm” and Anita (Nay) Tom were interviewed on February 11, 2005 in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. They related their experiences living in the Pacoon and Nay Ranch areas of Whitney Pass on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
MH: Where were you born, “Norm”?
NT: [I was born in] Las Vegas, Nevada in 1955.
MH: You are just a child!
NT: Yes.
MH: When did you first [go] out to the [Nay] ranch?
NT: I believe I was about twenty-one. [It was] in 1977. I was working for her dad, Keith Nay, hauling water for his livestock. I [met] her [Anita] at a square dance. It was a church social. He was the branch president on the reservation. I am one of the Native Americans out there [and am a member of] the Moapa Band of Paiutes.
MH: Are you on the Moapa Tribal Council?
NT: You were not supposed to ask me that [laughter] but, unfortunately, yes.
MH: I am sure it has its headaches.
NT: [Inaudible] My life gets boring once in a while and different challenges make it worthwhile. I like to go back to my cowboy days. I have lived enough on the reservation.
MH: What about the Nay Ranch? How old were you when you first went out there?
NT: I went to a trade school in Oakland [California] and when I came back from there I went out to the ranch. I [was] tired of city life and [wanted] to get as far as I could away from the public and enjoy my life.
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MH: What year [did] you came back from Oakland?
NT: It was about the end of 1975.
MH: Was the [land] still privately owned or BLM [Bureau of Land Management] permitted at that time?
NT: Yes, it was. I worked for different [ranchers] out there. I worked for Anita’s dad, Keith [Nay] on the Heaton Ranch. I worked for [Howard] Hughes, [the Summa Corporation] outfit. Jim Maceda was [the] boss. [Inaudible]
MH: How many cattle did they run out there?
NT: They had two outfits out there. One was in Delamar [Nevada] and one [was] at Gold Buttes [Nevada]. Combined with the cattle on the [Arizona Strip] ranch there would be 2,500 or 3,000 [head].
MH: That was enough to keep you busy!
NT: There were [a lot] of horses there too.
MH: [Did] you still use horses to gather [round up] the cattle back in the 1970s?
NT: You bet! Jimmy was an old cowboy. I learned a lot from him. I was always grateful for that line of work because I liked that type of life.
MH: Was [this] your home territory [since you were] Native American?
NT: Yes, it was. My elders always told me [from the] Grand Wash coming up from Tassi [Ranch], Pacoon, and on up to St. George [Washington County, Utah belonged to the] Shivwits [Band] and the Moapa Band, all [on] the west side.
MH: Can you remember some of the [fellows] you worked with? Were there any other Native American cowboys out there? There must have been a lot of them.
NT: There was a young boy named Greg Anderson who was from the Moapa Band. We had maybe four Mexican cowboys. There were older cowboys out there, Jimmy Heyworth, Newell [Alma] Bundy, Cleo Whitney [and] Hank Rice . They would come out [to the Arizona Strip] at round up time.
MH: Did you run bulls with the cows all year? Or did you cut them out?
NT: We would like to have a good cow and calf operation but without [any] fences it [was] impossible. I think we did have a lot of good livestock out there.
MH: What were your [cattle] breeds?
NT: They were a Charolais breed. Hughes was the first to start the “Char” breeds in that country. They adapted to the desert and handled the heat. Most of the cattle I saw that were “Char” breeds were good keepers. They could get along on local feed where white-face [cattle] and [other] livestock couldn’t survive. I had a little experience with that. I had about sixty head of mother cows and they were not the [right] cattle for that type of desert.
MH: Where was your market? Did your buyers come to you or did you have to round up [the cattle] and truck them out?
NT: We brought them [to] the Cedar City [Iron County, Utah] auction.
MH: When you married Anita, did you drag her out there or did she drag you out? [Laughter]
NT: No, I dragged her and my boys out and one [boy] was still in diapers. One time we were out at a cow-camp at Cedar Basin. We had thirty head of horses. We had a cowboy there, [“Big] Jim” Sage, who was a horseshoer [farrier]. He was moody and also was our cook. My youngest boy ─
AT: That was our oldest boy.
NT: Both of my boys [have been] in the saddle since they were a day-old.
MH: [Laughter] Anita, what was it like raising [youngsters] out on a ranch?
AT: It was harder than most people would think. [I had] disposable diapers. If I had to wash [diapers] by hand, I don’t think I would have had any more than the first child.
MH: Describe [the] Nay Ranch. When I saw it, it was a pretty little place.
AT: It is very pretty. In the summer time there is water, a pool to swim in and irrigation ponds.
MH: A very [nice] swimming pool to swim in. Who built the nice rock house there?
AT: My dad. His uncle started the fireplace, the foundation and the wall up so far. When we decided to marry, they told us we couldn’t have a reception out there until the house was finished and the yard was cleaned. So we had to help finish it.
NT: We lived in the house when we [were] married.
AT: We [lived there] about three or four years. It had a loft.
MH: That would be the only cool place in the summer.
AT: It was [cool] in the summer. I guess the cottonwood [trees] acted as an evaporative cooler. The water stayed at 65° the year around.
NT: I [would] only [stay] in [the water] for about five minutes and then I was out of that dang thing!
AT: Then you would be hunting the sunshine to warm you up.
MH: Tell me about some of the characters you worked with?
NT: There [were] a lot of them. If I were listening to this [tape], they would be talking about me but this is my chance so I will talk about them. [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] Do it!
NT: I can tell you about when I was over in Gold Buttes where two fellows, Bill Garrett and Art Coleman, are buried.
MH: Bill Garrett was an old cowboy from way back. He ran with Bill Shanley.
NT: That was before my [time]. It is fascinating about that whole country. A lot of work was done out there, rock walls and fencing, old line shacks [that] cowboys used. Dan Morone did most of the fencing and rock walls.
Where we always camped was called headquarters. There was this old fellow called “Big Jim” Sage who had respect in the camp when he was [cooking the] food. I never did gripe about his cooking even though he had rocks in his beans! [Laughter] [Inaudible] rodeo park. I was riding [an] old red mare named “Peg.” I rode well enough for an older [fellow].
There was [an] old fellow, Newell [Alma] Bundy, who was quite a character. I enjoyed working with him and learned a lot [from him]. I thought I knew a lot but this man knew all [about the] country and wild cows and horses. One day he had his daughter’s dog with him. [The] dog wouldn’t come back and wouldn’t mind Newell either. Finally, we were mounted up and I was holding my horse. I thought that son-of-a-gun would jump out from under me. Newell said, “Are you ready, Tom?” He always called me “Tom-Tom.” “Let’s get going.” That dang dog came at my horse as soon as I got on. My horse didn’t do anything. [The dog] went around there and bit Newell’s horse and [the] horse went into it. The more he yelled, the [more the] dang dog went for the horse. He was an old cowboy and he [hung on]. When [the] horse spun around and bucked, he yelled, “Kill that damn dog!” He was going round and round in a small area. He came off of there like Batman and landed on his feet. I thought heck, if he could do that so could I! [Laughter] There were the four of us: Fernando, me, Newell, Jimmy Heyworth and maybe Cleo Whitney. These boys knew the country.
MH: [Laughter] What was the worst thing that happened to you out there?
AT: [Inaudible] the horse was stupid. You and [the horse] parted company and you lit on the ground. That laid you up for quite awhile.
NT: That was an accident. That was on me. I was down there below Mockingbird [Wash]. Newell and [James] “Jim” Bundy roped a four or five-year-old Charolais bull. I was on this big “Appy” [Appaloosa] horse. We were going to drive [the bull] back up to [the] corral [at] Mockingbird [Wash]. We started off with six or seven head [of cattle]. He wanted to take that bull and everything he could get. We were after that dang bull and it wouldn’t go. Finally, [the bull] won! He said, “We will go ahead and brand him right here.”
I got [out] a couple of running irons, the cross-diamond-cross on the hip. I had both those irons in one hand. I had to use them to balance myself and pull myself up. I could hardly do it because my horse kept jumping around. Either Newell or “Jim” let a little slack on that bull and that son-of-a-gun got up! It was wild and mean and came right at me. The only thing that saved me was a little catclaw bush. I went round and round that son-of-a-gun. He would catch me every time I tried to make a run around him. [The] bull would knock me down [and] run back up on top of me. Those boys up on the hill were laughing! [Laughter] He kept me down quite awhile.
MH: Did you get hurt?
NT: No, I was bigger than that bull! [Laughter]
AT: [Laughter] The way they told [the story] when they came back [was that he and the bull] were roly-poly; the bull was on top, he was on top, the bull was on top, and he was on top. I said, “Where were you [fellows while] this was happening?” They said, “We were sitting on our horses laughing!” “Thanks!”
NT: From then on, I would never get off my horse. I stayed on my horse. [Laughter]
AT: That was a true story. You stayed on the horse when a bull went behind me and scared me to death.
NT: When I was working for Howard Hughes, Roland Esplin was at Mt. Carmel [Kane County, Utah at a ranch] called [inaudible]. Keith Nay [was with] the Whitney Ranch, Dell Allen [was from] the Nay Ranch [at] Pacoon [and] Jim Whitmore [with the] Tassi [Ranch]. There were five outfits. We were mounted on the best horses that all the outfits had. We had good horses. Roland Esplin was good size and had a big horse. One of his cowboys was a one-arm Indian named Warren Mayo. He was a cowboy even [though he had] [only] one arm.
MH: Do you know how he lost his arm?
NT: Someone told me he went after an animal and it caught him and took it [his arm] off. I’m not sure. I came close to [getting hurt] roping out there in that desert. Sometimes you had to dally [very] quickly. I was a dally man anyway.
MH: [Do] you have both thumbs?
NT: Yes, cowboys had to tie hard and fast. Newell Bundy and others would tie solid.
We [went] down [to round up] eight stray [cattle in] the Whitmore [Canyon]. Three or four of them [were] from [Howard] Hughes’ outfit, [the] Summa Corporation. Roland Esplin had about four. As soon as they saw us, [the cattle] split up. There was a cowboy for each one of them. I took out after a heifer [and] roped [her]. It was the fastest one in the whole bunch. [Anita’s] dad came along and I handed the rope to him. He took it. Warren was in front of me and had his rope tucked under his armpit and his reins in his mouth, like John Wayne in True Grit. He only had one arm. I watched that rope fly out because I wanted to make sure he was alright. He was as good as anybody.
MH: Did he drop [the] loop right?
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NT: I waved to him and went on out there and caught a yearling and brought it back. When we got [the] cattle together, we couldn’t drive them or herd them. The younger [ones] we took down [the canyon] on the end of a rope. We had about six cows we had to get down.
I was going to watch [inaudible] because these [cowboys] were the experts. The cattle were wild [so] they tied their horns together like two oxen. Every time [one of the] cows would try to run, they had to take the other one along. We took them down from Black Willow Wash. Grand Wash comes down from the north from Pacoon and drains in [to it]. We were going on up to Roland Esplin’s lower well which was about eight miles.
MH: That [would be] eight or ten miles [from there].
NT: Yes, it was quite a ways to go. We had to go through the fence and take them up. I didn’t have to worry about those fellows. They don’t miss! You are never bored riding along with Dell Allen because he is always talking about thirty or forty years ago back in his rodeo days. [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] Dell was quite a [fellow]! How did Tassi Spring get its name?
NT: I was talking to one of the elder [Indians] about that. It was a highway stop [when] the Indians were traveling. As far as I know, Paul Jerunski was out there. He was my great-great-great grandfather. Even though she [his wife] was a
Durant, she was still my grandma. There was another [Indian] named, Maude. Her husband was blind. Have you heard [about] that?
MH: No, tell [the] story.
NT: She supposedly [is] buried [by] her husband, Curly.
AT: She got tired of carrying him around.
NT: One day, one of the ranchers or [a] cowboy came [by and saw] this fellow [being] buried. They stopped and talked to her [Maude]. They had to pull him out. She was going to bury him because he was no good [to her] anymore. [Laughter] Indians have a good sense of humor. They are not a war-like people. That was also tied to Tassi.
MH: Wasn’t it the way over to Pearce Ferry?
AT: Wasn’t Tassi an Indian stop?
NT: Yes, but back in those days [Indian] names were so hard [to say that] even the [Bureau of Indian Affairs] agency couldn’t pronounce the Indian names. They had to give [the Indians names] like Tom and Green and so forth.
MH: Did the Indians ranch out there after the 1900s?
NT: They had their route that they kept. Even today some of our songs pertain to the mountains. There were a few songs that came across the Colorado River up through Pacoon into Tassi and on up to where we were at the main ranch. Then back to Moapa [Nevada], on the reservation here, back to Mt. Charleston [Nevada] and down into Palm Springs, California. Then back to Parker, Arizona. That is how our songs took their route. When they sang all night [the songs were about] all these areas.
MH: That is interesting. Do the Native Americans still have their own names for most of [those places] out there? Or has that all been lost?
NT: A lot of that [information] has been lost. I was talking to Art Callahan who was down in the Grand Wash [area]. I knew the Shivwits [Band of the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah] occupied that years ago. He talked about his mom [being] born somewhere in the Grand Wash area. There is a lot of history there and a lot of signs that Indians have always lived in [the] area.
MH: Let’s talk about you [Anita]. You were stuck at the ranch with a bunch of [youngsters] and he was out playing rodeo! What was your day like out at the ranch? You got him up, fed him and sent him off. How did you spend the rest of the day?
AT: Normally, when he was out chasing cows we were with him in a tent. I went right along and did some of the cooking for him. I got in trouble for cleaning out the coffee pot because I didn’t know any better. I thought it was black and dirty and needed cleaning but that was wrong. [Laughter] When he was gone, the boys and I would move sprinkler pipes in the alfalfa fields.
MH: There was quite an orchard just below the house at one time.
AT: There is still a big orchard [there].
MH: What are the trees?
AT: There are peaches, pears, apricots, apples and some plums. Mostly, yellow peaches and some white peaches. [There was] plenty of work to be done there.
If I wasn’t busy doing that, I did book-work for my mom and dad. I did their tax [work and] kept it all caught up so they could take it to their income tax [preparer].
MH: It is still remote. There is no power out there yet.
AT: No. We didn’t have power, [only] a twelve-volt light system. Sometimes we had TV [television]. [During] our last years out there we had a generator so I could have a washing machine.
MH: You didn’t have to [use] gas power?
AT: I didn’t even have that. I had knuckles! [Laughter]
MH: How many children?
AT: Just two to do laundry for that way. I had an old wood stove to cook on and [to] heat water. [I] poured [the heated water] into a bathtub in front of the stove for the [boys]. We [put] our bath water into a bathtub in the bathroom. Olden days!
MH: Who built [the] water catchment at Whitney Pockets?
NT: [The] CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] as far as I know.
AT: Was it after [World] War I?
NT: I think it was after The [Great] Depression. Your grandpa, Alan Nay, talked about it.
AT: The government was paying them so they were looking for somewhere to put these men to work.
NT: I know a lot of the springs where they put water troughs were done by the CCC.
MH: Was the Grand Gulch Mine operating when you were out there?
NT: No. I looked at it.
AT: My mom was a little girl when that was operating. Her dad used to haul freight to [the mine in] a wagon.
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MH: Was St. Thomas [Nevada] still around?
AT: Yes. My dad was born in St. Thomas and my mother’s dad was the last postmaster for St. Thomas. They did the last day cancellations and then took the stamp out [and] threw it out into Lake [Mead]. [The lake] was already rising [so] they left by boat.
MH: That is an interesting story.
AT: Years after that, when the water had gone down, they had an Easter party. Somebody in the family actually found the stamp and has [it] in her possession.
MH: I’ll be darned! Did you ever do any farming?
AT: We had alfalfa [and farmed] it the old-fashioned way. We had a tractor and a mower that went behind it. We had an old buck rake.
NT: How old were my boys when I bought that cattle range there on the Bunkerville [Nevada] allotment?
AT: [That] was [in] 1986.
NT: I had a chance to buy on the Bunkerville allotment.
AT: It was a grazing right.
MH: [It was] a grazing permit.
NT: We bought about 100 head of mother cows and that was where we operated until I couldn’t do it anymore.
MH: Did you ever bring any of the elder [Indians] out to the ranch?
NT: You bet! Before I went out there, we had a Nay family reunion and had 600 guests. When my wife and I [were] married, I had all the reservation folks [out there].
AT: They said there were in the neighborhood of 600 to 800 people there for our [wedding] reception. It was a family ordeal because the swimming pool [brought] them out and they swam.
NT: That was for our wedding. I guess that is why we are still together. [Laughter]
AT: Your dad and your uncles were out there a lot. We had the reservation [folks] come [out] for some sort of church outing.
MH: So the Moapa Band [of Paiutes Moapa River Indian Reservation] and the Shivwits still go out from time to time.
NT: When you look at that area, it was the Shivwits that occupied it. It is their home.
MH: [Do] they still think of it as their home?
NY: Yes, they think of that country as their home because [the beginnings of their] families and all their history was out there on the Parashaunt. I haven’t been up on top to explore, but where I have looked there was always something that was theirs, like the ranch. I think it was a special sacred place. I could tell you [information] but it [isn’t] special to me.
MH: Did you ever have any bad experience with fires out on the ranch?
NT: [Fire came fairly] close. It [would] look like Las Vegas sometimes when we would get those electric storms. I counted almost forty lightning [strikes that] came down and hit a Joshua [tree]. I counted about thirty or thirty-five fires.
AT: You looked down a big valley [when] you [were] at the ranch. It was like little cities all lit up down there.
NT: [Fire] never did get up close to the ranch. It did get within a mile or so but there is a lot [inaudible].
MH: Tell about the grave that is there by the road.
AT: That is my father’s grave and my grandmother’s grave.
MH: There are two graves there? I have driven by, but never stopped.
AT: One grave is my dad’s and one’s my mom’s mom. [It is] kind of a family plot.
MH: That is nice. Are you still actively ranching [the land] now?
NT: I think [the land] is just idling there. Her mother, [Marilyn Nay, has] remarried. I can’t pronounce his name but I call him “Mr. Old [inaudible].” He was a hard- working old fellow and is retired. She seems to be happy. After my father-in-law passed away I was worried about my mother-in-law. She wouldn’t come off the mountain for anything.
AT: His name is Koturah. She is a stubborn lady.
NT: I told my wife that I would probably be about the same way.
AT: When my dad was alive he wouldn’t let her stay out there alone [because] she was scared of the dark. Either I was there, one of my boys was there or somebody, because he wouldn’t let her be there alone. Then he died and I told her, “I won’t answer to dad because you are out here alone by yourself because you wouldn’t listen to us. [Laughter] You go tell him that.”
MH: Were your nearest neighbors at Pacoon?
AT: Our closest [neighbors] were at Pacoon. Up on the hill was another little place but they were hardly ever there.
NT: I think they came out on weekends.
AT: Pacoon [had] the closest [neighbors] which was about twelve miles. Town was forty miles one-way to school [for] the [youngsters].
MH: Did you have to take them to school in the morning?
AT: I drove them to school. The oldest one was home schooled for kindergarten, first and second [grades] and then went to public school in third grade. [He] stayed in public school until the first quarter of the ninth grade. He said, “Get me out of here. I want to go to home school.” I told him, “You won’t have your friends and you won’t play football.” I thought he was just mad [over] something at school and he would get over it. A couple of weeks later he said, “Did you order me that course yet?” I said, “No.” He said, “Are you going to wait until I graduate?” I said, “No, I guess you are really serious.” They finished home schooling [and received] a diploma.
MH: Are your children still tied to and interested in the ranch?
AT: It was a big part of their lives. It was Jared [Tom’s] life style and livelihood until he was eighteen when we moved off [the ranch]. I really didn’t realize how much he missed it until he was in town looking around. He started looking for trouble and kept finding it! [Laughter] I told him, “You better find yourself another hobby, buddy.” Now they are team roping.
NT: [Inaudible] A lot of these farmers come from [inaudible]. Every time I left to help somebody out, I said, “You have to make them stop making [trouble] and make them start working.” In fact, I felt bad because when Jared was eighteen and “Shorty” [Luke Tom] was fifteen they were playing [with] cars every time they [had] a chance. They got in somebody else’s sandbox and played with cars. They never [were able to] do that out at the ranch.
AT: They had all these cars and toys. I went home one day (he was in ninth grade) [and] I looked at this body lying on the ground and thought, “What’s with him?” He was playing with his loader and dump truck. I thought: my gosh! we work these [boys] too hard and they never get to play! [Laughter]
MH: [Laughter] [They were] making up for lost time.
AT: I guess so.
MH: What was your scariest time out at the ranch? What event scared you the most?
[Did you have any] disasters, [youngsters] getting in accidents or medical problems?
AT: We were healthy except this [fellow] over here! [Norman] kept having horse accidents! [Laughter] They would roll over the top of him. In [inaudible] it was about two miles to the corrals and [in the] summertime. My uncle was there and he came running [on] his horse up to me. I was [very pregnant] with our next [child] and he didn’t want to scare me. He said, “We have to go down there. “Norm” is down there.” I thought Norman was down in the wash and there was a cow [that] needed care or maybe [he] needed help to get [the cow] in the truck. Our truck had a stock rack on it. I was [walking along] and he said, “I think you ought to speed up a little.” “Exactly, what do you mean?” “The horse rolled over him.” He had blood coming out his nose, eyes and ears. He didn’t know [if] “Norm” was even alive when he left [him]. By the time we got there, he was up but he has had a lot of close calls that way.
We were lucky with the [boys]. Our oldest [Jared] had a motorcycle wreck when he was about nine. He was following my dad who had a [Honda] Fat Cat [motorcycle] and he had a Honda Trail 90 [motorcycle]. My dad didn’t hear well and [the boy] hit a rock and flipped. He had a helmet on or I don’t think he would be with us today. It cracked the helmet and [he was] flown to [Las] Vegas.
I was working in Mesquite [Nevada] at the time and you [Norman] were out goofing around. It was close to July Fourth when I [received] the call. I had been driven to work so they sent people all around town looking for him so we could get to the hospital. I was under the impression [he had been] taken to St.
George. I called my mom and she told me that he had been taken to Las Vegas. Actually, [he was] brought by ambulance to St. George [and they] used a helicopter to Life Flight him to [Las] Vegas. They wouldn’t let my dad on the helicopter with him. He went back to Glendale [Nevada] to call his uncle and got a ride in to [Las] Vegas. Jared was unconscious most of the time. After he [was put] on the helicopter he gained consciousness. They had to put him back out because he realized there wasn’t anyone around him that he knew and panicked. That was one of our worst [situations].
MH: I [hope] it ended well.
AT: He had a death grip on my hand [when] we got to the hospital. I pried his fingers off my hand to his dad’s hand while I went to the bathroom. It turned out that he seems to be fine.
MH: What was Christmas like out at the ranch?
AT: When we had a generator we had Christmas lights running over the hill. [Laughter] Out in no-man’s land you [could] come over the top of the hill and [see lights]! [Laughter]
MH: [Right] over Whitney Pass! [Laughter]
AT: Christmas was good out there. We got to play in the snow.
NT: I don’t know where the Christmas lights came from.
AT: We lived in town, moved back and forth to the ranch [and had the Christmas lights]. We had Christmas trees until the [boys were] old enough [to] take all the fun out of it. We couldn’t out guess them. There was no surprise in it anymore. [Laughter]
My mom and dad gave my brother and me an animal when we were small. We had our own herd. I was obnoxious. They gave my brother a choice. He picked a nice little heifer and the [animal] I wanted was a bull. They told me he would never reproduce but I wanted him anyway. Finally, they took it away from me and gave me a heifer. [Laughter] I managed to have fifteen or twenty head [of cattle] when we [were] married. From the time the [boys] were born, we did the same and gave each one an animal. They were heifers and their herd grew. With all the trouble with the government we decided to get out of [the business]. We sold their [cattle] along with our [herd] to get out. Nothing was handed to us. We had to buy the range [land] and lots of cattle.
[END OF TAPE - SIDE ONE]
NT: ─ right out of Santa Clara [Washington County, Utah and] Lake Mead. If I am going to stay overnight, this is what I always tell my Native American youth.
I would say, “The Spirit of the Mountain will want to see young people.” If I have been out there in some canyon or wash or in a fix somewhere, laying there [because] a horse rolled over the top of me, I felt I was never alone. My Grandfather up there created all this [area]. Just for a moment, I could go out there and look at the beautiful view, birds and animals, the terrain, the sunset [and] the stars [in the skies]. I know what these ranchers and some of these people are talking about that like to go out there. We are a part of it. I consider us as good stewards of the land and we respect it. We don’t like it all destroyed either. I know [the] Mormon ranchers and others pray for rain just like the Native Americans. They like to see the rain [and] snow [come] to get the grass growing. When the grass starts growing, the animals start reproducing. Everything falls [under] our Creator up there. So that is my church. Every time I go out there [I] don’t have to worry about seeing something bad. There is nothing bad because it is [inaudible].
AT: It is relaxing.
NT: You bet! I like it that the family can take[youngsters] out and get away from this fast-paced life here [in town].
MH: That is a good answer, Norm. With the rain we are having now, it should be a good spring. There should be a lot of flowers [blooming].
NT: [It] is a beautiful place out there. I love Toroweap.
AT: It is pretty out there at [Whitney] Pockets right now.
MH: [The area] down around Pacoon and Gold Buttes should be pretty.
NT: My granddaddy and the elders talked about the plants and herbs out there that could be used for medicine.
MH: Do the Native Americans still gather [these plants]?
NT: My dad and my uncles always talked about the medicine out there [in the] mountain that we [are] from, Whitney Ranch, back in [the] Whitney Pockets area.
In that area where the rain hits the most, there is plenty right there. What they see, I see [as] cow feed! [Laughter]
AT: And they see [the plants as] medicine. I don’t see a pharmacy or prescriptions out here! Now, I wished I had taken the time to learn from them. I have studied some of it on my own, but it would have been helpful to have them point [the plants] out instead of [wondering] which [plant] is medicine. [Laughter]
NT: You get to use those herbs, too, and that kind of life to me is the reward. Those two boys over there are like a lot of the boys from ranches and farms, hard working [youngsters]. They make good United States citizens and abide by the law.
AT: They are good healthy boys.
NT: I am proud of them. They come down here and they team up. “Shorty” Luke [Tom has] won quite a few buckles and saddles in roping and team roping. The oldest boy of mine spent a lot of money on horses.
AT: There is a difference between what we call a good horse in the hills and what they call a good horse in town. A good horse in the hills is one you ride out in the washes and you don’t call it a suicide ride. Those horses are okay but in town they aren’t what [is known as] a good horse. These good horses have to be high-dollar roping horses.
NT: I used to frown at them because when they roped [the] steers they knocked the pounds off those animals when I [was] trying to put [pounds] on! [Laughter]
MH: They didn’t ride them quite so hard. [Laughter]
AT: We used to count on [those] extra pounds for a little bit more money.
NT: Milk-fat was about the best thing that could happen on a cow.
MH: Do you still have your saddle?
NT: I sure do! This is my third saddle. I got the first one was over [at] Cedar Basin in Gold Butte. It belonged to one of my bosses on the reservation who was quite a cowboy too. His name was Lloyd Bann. In those days, those boys were hard-working fellows. [Inaudible] I went out to Cedar Basin and there was a Charolais bull that had jumped the fence around the corral. [It] was about a seven-foot fence. He jumped that [fence], jumped another one and took off. I was out of the corral and [the others] were cutting the cattle out, so there was Fernando and me.
We saw that bull tear across [the] airport [that belonged to] Crazy Eddie’s in Cedar Basin. I could see the cedar and pine trees at the tree line. I took off after that [bull]. I already had a loop built. I lassoed that bull and pulled [the] dally real quickly before [the bull] got into the trees. [Inaudible] I could feel [the] saddle give and it broke my saddle. It was a good thing it didn’t jerk the whole thing out from under me. I yelled at Fernando, “My saddle is broken! You better put a rope on [him] real quick. I [have] to let it go.” [The crack] was about an inch. The only thing holding it together was the leather. That was one [good] saddle! [Laughter]
AT: Your boss traded you [a saddle] for another one?
NT: Jimmy Heyworth traded me another one. I still have that [saddle].
AT: Didn’t it break, too? It was cracked.
NT: It was cracked from all the roping [I did].
AT: Out on the range, the only way we could [round up] our cattle was to rope them.
NT: I roped horses off the saddle too. One time, with that same saddle, Newell and I were down below Mud [Spring] by Greasewood Basin. We had some cows down there between [the] two reservoirs. We had [a] driver drive Newell and me down so there was just the two of us.
The cattle took off [on] a trot so I took off with Newell to get them headed in the right direction. I was on this big colt. He said, “I am going to try to head these [cows] up toward headquarters at Horse Springs [Canyon]. Every time I looked at Newell, my horse wouldn’t turn; it just went straight toward Pacoon. I couldn’t get the son-of-a-gun to stop! Finally, I jerked that horse around and he started bucking and bucked all the way across that flat. He was running and I could stay on him then. Then I slowed him down and he cut loose. It takes a heck of a horse to buck me off but not very long. When I went up, I put my foot underneath the saddle and tried to clamp myself down but he was bucking real hard by then. Finally, I felt myself between the seat and the saddle. I skinned my butt and he threw me off. I managed to catch the seat of my saddle and put a round mark clear across my saddle seat. I went off and landed on my feet like Newell Bundy would have! [Laughter] I turned him around and headed my horse back up. When I got back on my horse and saw the dust from the stock truck going back up, [I] thought: damn, I am sure glad I didn’t lose my horse because I would have had to walk about fifty miles back up to headquarters! [Laughter]
I told my wife and my boys, I don’t want anybody fighting over this saddle. When I die, throw that saddle on top of my grave. It will be good enough for me.
AT: They can throw that one on there. Last year, in February, your son won three saddles in one roping [event]. His big brother automatically claims one [and] Luke claims the other one. It was the day before his birthday [when] he won. To cover his entry fees, he sold his saddle to a Mexican. He traded a buckle he had won to get his saddle back. He gave [the buckle] to his dad for his birthday. So he has a brand new [saddle], which is the first one in your entire life.
MH: So you [have] a brand new [saddle]!
AT: A brand new one and probably the [only] new saddle he [has] had in his life.
NT: A cowboy always has the right to stretch a story. I want to say I won that saddle. [Laughter]
MH: Given the fact that [President William Jefferson] Clinton made the [Grand Canyon-Parashaunt National] Monument and it exists, how do you think it ought to be managed and administered?
AT: Not by the government. The ranchers, the people who have it closest to their heart and cattlemen [should manage it] because they would do [a] better [job].
NT: I believe that. I heard that [President] George [W.] Bush introduced the back country by-ways; he wanted to see the public lands in operation [by the] ranchers, miners, oilmen, loggers, off-road [riders] and all these people who enjoy the outdoors. When they make monuments and parks out of public lands, which the people own anyway, they [set up] rules and regulations and treat them like laws. It is not enjoyable anymore.
AT: It costs you [to use the land] and then there are penalties.
NT: To me, it ought to be a wilderness. A wilderness is an area like on the top of these mountains. When you start talking about wilderness, I am talking about roads that have always been there. I could see in our desert area, especially up on top of where [the Grand Canyon]-Parashaunt [National] Monument is, there are a lot of springs. The ranchers or miners put in all these improvements for wildlife. There wouldn’t be that many deer up there on those mountains [if they hadn’t]. The natives are the Shivwits. They were [at] the end of their rope as far as surviving. The Mormons took over that country too. They had to do what they had to do back in those days. They opened up the area and put in water catchments and developed the springs.
MH: Would you like to see them pave the roads on the monument?
NT: No, I wouldn’t.
AT: No, you could compare that with our back country by-way. That was a national [project] and all that did was [bring] a lot of people in [who] destroyed the area.
NT: I think it is a lot like [my] little town of Mesquite. It hurt some of the older people [as I found out] when I talked to some of the elders, the senior citizens. It takes away a nice little farm community that now is all casinos. All it is [about] is money.
[END OF TAPE - SIDE TWO
Description
Norman “Norm” and Anita (Nay) Tom were interviewed on February 11, 2005, in St. George, Washington County, Utah by Milton Hokanson, a representative of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument Oral History Project. They related their experiences living in the Pacoon and Nay Ranch areas of Whitney Pass on the Arizona Strip, Mohave County, Arizona.
Credit
NPS
Date Created
02/11/2005
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