Oral History Interview with Thomas Quinn

Transcript

Transcript

[Pause 00:00 – 00:09] Oloye Adeyemon: Brown versus Board Oral History collection. New Castle County, Delaware school segregation desegregation interviews. Interviewee, Mr. Thomas Quinn. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted at the Delaware Historical Society of Wilmington, Delaware on August 16th, 2001. These interviews are made possible through the Brown versus Board Oral History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summit of 2001 as part of the Brown versus Board of Education National Historic Site Oral History project. Mr. Quinn, what is your full name? Thomas Quinn: My full name is Thomas E. Quinn. Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birth date? Thomas Quinn: May 6th, 1949. Oloye Adeyemon: And where you born? Thomas Quinn: Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. Oloye Adeyemon: And what were your parents' names? Thomas Quinn: My parents' name were Tom Quinn and Helen Quinn. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what the maiden name? Thomas Quinn: My mother, uh, was named Helen Donahue. And, uh, actually I was born in Pittsburg but, uh, we moved back here when I was three. Oloye Adeyemon: When you were three. Thomas Quinn: So I, for all intents and purposes I'm a native. Oloye Adeyemon: Were your parents from Delaware? Thomas Quinn: My mom was, yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And your father was from? Thomas Quinn: He was from Pitt, Pen—Pitt, Pennsylvania. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And do you have brothers and sisters? Thomas Quinn: Oh yes. Six. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Six. And were they born in Pennsylvania? Thomas Quinn: No. They were all born here. Oloye Adeyemon: Ah. What were their names? Thomas Quinn: Oh, geez. We have Patty, Jeanie 01:33, Karen, Kevin, Michael, and Shaun 01:35. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And what did your father do for a living? Thomas Quinn: My father was a union painter. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. And your mother? Thomas Quinn: Just-just a housewife. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. And what-what is your career? What do you do? Thomas Quinn: I just retired, uh, from New Castle County school district after 3-30 years. Just this June. Oloye Adeyemon: And what kinds of things did you do as a member of…? Thomas Quinn: Uh, well, um, I taught most of the time. But, um, in 1977 they had, uh, a special federal program in regard to the impending deseg in New Castle county. And it was the, uh, two-pronged, uh, pro-program. One we were looking for people to be what they call Human Relation Specialist. And the second part of the program was a home school advisor. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And, um, we spent, uh, four intensive weeks of training. Those that were selected volunteers of this pro-program. Uh, we spent four weeks at the University [unintelligible 02:32], uh, trained by, human relation, uh, specialist, uh, uh group dynamics specialists. And, um, we did that the summer before the fall desegregation. And, um, each school had both a human relations specialist and a home school advisor. Oloye Adeyemon: Like to come back to that. Um, so your-your career has been in education. Thomas Quinn: So—yes. S-so I-I was in the human relations program for th-three years. I was actually classroom tea-teacher for 27. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. And, uh, where did you go to school to prepare yourself [crosstalk 03:13]. Thomas Quinn: I went to Saint Elizabeth High School right here in this c-city. And then, uh, went on to Kutztown University of Pennsylvania. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. That's where you got your degree. Thomas Quinn: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, it was teaching? Thomas Quinn: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, when you were in the classroom what grade did you teach? Thomas Quinn: I had sixth grade all 27 years. Oloye Adeyemon: So you grew up in Delaware. Thomas Quinn: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And also— Thomas Quinn: In the city. Oloye Adeyemon: And also worked as a educator in Delaware. Thomas Quinn: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, in the Wilmington school district, uh, you-you would've went—you would've, um, started school in what year? Thomas Quinn: Wh-when did I start? Oloye Adeyemon: When did you start elementary school? Thomas Quinn: 1956. Oloye Adeyemon: '56. Okay. Uh, there had been a case and it's one of the cases that we're studying that occurred here. Belton versus—well actually two—Belton versus Gebhart and Buela versus Gebhart, uh, that actually went on to become part of the supreme court decision Brown versus Board. And, uh, in '52 Judge Sites, uh, ruled in favor of both plaintiffs. And they attended White schools. So really, um, there was, uh, the least integration of Hockessin Elementary School and Claymont High School in '52. And although the state had, um—were not, uh, required I understand that some of the school districts considered integrating at that time but basically it did not occur. Thomas Quinn: No. Oloye Adeyemon: But then with the Brown decision, uh, the schools were desegregated. But because of housing patterns the schools remained-remained, uh—essentially they were non-integrated even though there was desegregation. And so from that point I guess until the Evans case in the '70s the schools in Wilmington where the Black population was concentrated were for the most part not very well integrated. Thomas Quinn: Well, Wilmington, uh, was—I guess [unintelligible 05:14] fact that segregation due to the housing program by 1965 they were—the city schools were essentially 95 percent Black. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Thomas Quinn: That time. However—and-and I'm not, uh, uh, a historical expert on this. Wha-what-what had prompted, I guess, the next case in terms of desegregating the city schools was by an act of the general assembly. At that time you had Howard High and you had Jason High down state. And those were the two Black high schools [crosstalk 05:48]— Oloye Adeyemon: What was the second one? I've never heard— Thomas Quinn: Ja-Ja-Jason. Oloye Adeyemon: Where was that located? Thomas Quinn: That was down in Selbyville. Oloye Adeyemon: O h. Thomas Quinn: Down the southern end. So prior to there was an act by— Oloye Adeyemon: Do you know how long that school existed? 'Cause I-I'd been told it-it was only one in the state and that was Howard. Thomas Quinn: No. There was two. Also Jason High. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And, um, that was for the s-southern end. So, uh, uh, um, minority student prior to—and I don't know what year that was—there was a school consolidation act, okay. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And especially when you got what we call Delaware South through the canal it was really farmland rural. Dover was a small community called the town [unintelligible 06:23]. And everything else was just rural. And all your small places especially down state [unintelligible 06:30], Dewey, Milton, Lewis— Oloye Adeyemon: Milford? Thomas Quinn: Milford, Selby. They all had their own school districts. A-a-and, um, some of these towns were-were so small. And, uh, there was an act, uh, by the general assembly that consolidated in the larger school districts. And I think this had to do with some of the ru-rulings that Judge Sites did because prior to that, um, uh, for students, uh—minority students in the state of Delaware I-I know for a fact that you had a choice of high-high schools. You could go to Howard, or you could go to, um, Jason. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And then due to whatever that ruling was in the state at that time schools then were ordered by our own Delaware supreme court to be desegregated. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: However, due to, as you said, the housing patterns what emerged after some years is that the schools throughout the state were desegregated. Um, uh, student in-in down state Delaware when they made the larger high schools after the consolidation act were integrated without much, uh, fanfare at all. However, due to those housing patterns by-by 1965 I would say that the city school district was 95 minority at that time. And I— Oloye Adeyemon: And this—we're talkin' 'bout here at Wilmington. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. And-and I think that—and I guess historically speaking I think that's what prompt the next suit. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Because by that time, uh, there was White flight— Thomas Quinn: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - and suburban schools were almost entirely White. Thomas Quinn: They were entirely White, um, prior to that just about. Um, but after that, um, there were minority students in the outlying suburban areas such as Newark and Mount Pleasant and— Oloye Adeyemon: Some but not many. Thomas Quinn: - William Penn, you know—yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Maybe-maybe 5 percent or 10 percent—of Blacks in the outlying areas, and 5 or 10 percent Whites in the in-in the inner city. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: So part of that solution was to make New Castle County School District and to divide it into four parts— Thomas Quinn: [Crosstalk 08:38]. Oloye Adeyemon: Taking a section of Wilmington with each part. Thomas Quinn: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Now that was a result of the Evans, uh, case, and that occurred in the '70s. Thomas Quinn: Uh, yeah. That would be—that was—that would be the case that prompted the total desegregation in New Castle County, yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now some people have distinguished those two phases. One from—one is desegregation and the other is integration. Because one of the things that they were attempting to do was not just desegregate the schools, but to go on and use bussing as a remedy toward integration. Is that correct? With the New Castle School District being set up. Children were gonna be now bussed to try to achieve some type of racial, uh, balance throughout the system. Thomas Quinn: Uh, I-I guess, you know, I guess the term, uh, trying to create integration throughout New Castle County. I think that was the result of it. I-I think as I recall—and-and you have to realize by the time—when the case started I was just a teenager in high school playing sports and doing those things. And-and at that stage in your life you don't pay attention to these things. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: But the—as-as I recall is that the reason for the case was that there were people in the city who felt that, uh, they were not getting the best education. Uh, they weren't equal amount of funding as suburban schools. And-and like you say— Oloye Adeyemon: Now part of the re—part of the problem with the funding is that the tax base is much lower in the city so there's less funding for education. Is that accurate? As in the suburbs you have higher income but you also have, you know, a lower—in many cases the-the businesses that might've been in the city there just wasn't the same kind of taxes available for education in Wilmington as there might've been in the suburbs. And that had something to do with the difference in education? Thomas Quinn: Um— Oloye Adeyemon: Quality of education. Thomas Quinn: Well, I-I don't think that the financial picture of the city and the suburban outlying suburban districts was the major impetus. I-I just think it was the feeling of people in the community. By just—I can tell you from a historical perspective. I graduated high school in 1967, okay. I lived across the street from where I wound up teaching, P.S. Du Pont. And, uh, in my case— Oloye Adeyemon: Was that also the high school that you were going to? Thomas Quinn: Well, no. I went to a catholic high school Saint Elizabeth. But in my neighborhood the largest high school in the city was P.S. Du Pont. Oloye Adeyemon: And that's where you ended up teaching. Thomas Quinn: And I wound up teaching there, which is only three blocks from my house as a kid. My students—my contemporaries back in those days, um, half the kids would go to the two local catholic high schools, Sally's or Saint Elizabeth if you came out of [unintelligible 11:22] school district. And by '65, um, P.S. Du Pont from my recollection-my recollection was probably-probably about 70 percent minority at that point. And-and people that— Oloye Adeyemon: In '67. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And people that, like, when you take my eighth grade class. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: Probably half of my eighth grade class elected to go right up the street P.S. Du Pont. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: But in the next three years, uh, things had changed after the riots. The riot of '67 and '68. Um, um, things started to change. Uh, the White flight in terms of housing patters had already occurred in '59-'61. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: So the city was probably— Oloye Adeyemon: And that was in part just because of the change in demographics, but also because of the desire to not integrate on the part of some Whites. Would you say that that was a factor in some'a that [crosstalk 12:25] suburbs? Thomas Quinn: Um, I think the White flight, uh, it was just—I-I think it was more of an economic thing. The big suburb was just in our hay day of being, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Thomas Quinn: - uh, sprawling at this point. Uh, um, as I say, my father was a union painter. And all the people in my neighborhood that started to move out it-it-it had to do with just conditions in—the unions at that point were just starting to make— Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. Thomas Quinn: - uh, better types of salary increments. And they had the full ability to move. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. So as a result of this, uh, you-you-you were saying the riots had some impact. Thomas Quinn: I-I-I think that, uh, um, there- were, uh, two telling incidents at P.S. Du Pont. Uh. like I say, I grew up there, wound up, uh, [crosstalk 13:22]— Oloye Adeyemon: Teaching. Thomas Quinn: - school there. [Laughter] wound up teaching here for 20 years. I guess it was in '66, um, some community related—maybe gang related. I don't really recall. I knew some of the people who were involved in it but, uh, um, there was a very terrible unfortunate incident where, uh, something had happened [unintelligible 13:41] community. One of the guys came and shot a guy dead right in the cafeteria. And I think— Oloye Adeyemon: Now this was, uh— Thomas Quinn: I think happened in— Oloye Adeyemon: This was a Black person [crosstalk 13:51]— Thomas Quinn: Black person actually shot a Black person, but yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Thomas Quinn: Just violence in the schools back in those days. That-that was, uh, [crosstalk 13:57]— Oloye Adeyemon: This was '66. Thomas Quinn: That-that-that was really an unheard of thing. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And at that particular time there was still, um—Wilmington even after the White flight I lived there. And-and by '66 probably half the people on my block were minorities. And everyone got along. We'd play ball together and we went down [unintelligible 14:18] pool. The pool had been-the pool had been finally desegregated in about '62/'63. Maybe even a little bit prior to that. Um, so when—and my generation when I had a choice to go to high school when I was looking at a high school in '63 P.S. was an option. 'Cause half the guys that went to [unintelligible 14:39] school were going there. so you had a choice if your parents wanted to pay tuition to go to— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: like, Catholic high or go to P.S. and probably half of my contemporaries, my eighth grade class, uh, elected to go to P.S. Du Pont. They had a great football team, a great basketball team. And there was coaches here that some—better athletes would actually would prefer to go up and play for P.S. Du Pont. But by '65 things had started to change. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. So there is this court case and I guess there's challenges to it. But at the point that the case, I guess, is-is decided and there's this new plan, uh, you move from being a teacher to working with the human relations. Thomas Quinn: Right. Thomas Quinn: Explain to me how that was established through federal-federal funding. Thomas Quinn: Um—and-and please don't quote me. This is just total recollection at this point. Um, think that Senator Biden and Senator Roth at that time, um, had a big hand in that. I-I think with some of the previous experiences throughout the country in terms of deseg that those people that were involved in this and had to implement that they realized that they had kinda gone around the curve and got ahead of things. And they said, "You know, we just can't impact, um, the lives of 450,000 people and maybe 25,000 students and their parents and everything that's related to that— Oloye Adeyemon: This is the Wilmington school district. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. And-and I think that from the federal end, um, they realized that having people on staff to deal with misconceptions, the rumors, the myths, uh, the problems that really existed, the thing that did occur. Uh, if you just ask to have this tremendous change, uh, and bringing two diverse communities together without-without having auxiliary staff to take away—if you didn't have auxiliary staff to take away or to deal with those problems, how would the classroom teacher even be able to do their job? Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And actually, uh, um, I-I think that by and large in my three years in human relations—and I was crisis task force [unintelligible 17:26]. If there was any type of racial incident throughout New Castle County, I was one of the first people on the scene. Um, and quite frankly in those three years I think we only—I really only had three major crisises. Oloye Adeyemon: What were those? Thomas Quinn: Um, geez. I-I, um… We had the—the first big one I recall is the one outta Conrad Junior High. Um, and, you know, the-the crisises also is kinda unique. When it occurs you could almost predict what occurred. Uh, out in, um, the Conrad School District was an outlying, very blue-collar, working, General Motors, Chrysler types of folks. Oloye Adeyemon: Predominantly White? Thomas Quinn: Yeah. And-and when you—and you also had—uh, the way the four component districts were, um, aligned, um, there was a—in my opinion there was a lot of [unintelligible 18:28] mixes in terms—I guess maybe there were inevitable where you couldn't no matter how you would've tried to [crosstalk 18:33]— Oloye Adeyemon: This is because you're combining part of Wilmington with each of these suburban communities. Thomas Quinn: But you had one of our lower economic sects with the city integrated with one of probably, um [laughter] I guess you shouldn't mince words in an interview like this. But you took a lower economic part of the city that had the traditional urban things where there was gangs and groups like that. And then you sent them out into probably a very highly, um, more racist, less open-minded group Whites out there. Of course when they mixed with Conrad Junior High, uh, there were some incidents. And the first crisis we had as I recall it, uh—I don't know. It was a group of girls flashed a knife in the bathroom. You know, all those types of things. And of course the, um, White population in Conrad mobilized the parents. And they demanded what's going on and the protection of their children. And I don't know—yeah. I think they actually closed the school for two days. Oloye Adeyemon: This is Conrad High. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. it was Conrad Junior High. Oloye Adeyemon: Junior High. Thomas Quinn: Conrad used to be a high school but that was one of the, uh—and 'course they were very, very upset about that, uh, then. 'Cause Conrad had a very, very tight community. Matter of fact— Oloye Adeyemon: You're talking 'bout the closing of the high school or— Thomas Quinn: Yeah. To close Conrad to— Oloye Adeyemon: To make it a junior high school. Thomas Quinn: Yeah, junior high. And matter of fact, in Conrad alumni association, uh, still march in the local parade. That's how close of group they are. And so it was a very traumatic experience for them to have the high school closed to begin with. Oloye Adeyemon: And then to have this incident occur only aggravated that. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. And-and quite frankly, because, I think, of the human relations program and the home school program we had, you know. And we were there. We weren't assigned to a daily classroom position. We were all assigned a school. But we had-we had—probably had three or four different places that were—if something were to come up we were to be on scene right then and there. Oloye Adeyemon: So you were able to diffuse it? Thomas Quinn: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: So this was not a racial incident that occurred in the school. But it was one that kind of galvanized some of the Whites in the community that were either resistant or concerned about what this was going to do, you know, to the community. So their concern it was the protection of their children, quality— Thomas Quinn: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: And you were able to diffuse that situation successfully. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, what was the second one that occurred? Thomas Quinn: Now the second thing was the same type'a thing. Um, it was down in Glasgow High, which is down the southern part of Newark. And you had, um, once again a less open-minded White community and a lot of, uh, people that, uh, lived on farms and things like that. And-and it was just, uh, um—and same thing. Down that way you had the Chrysler. Once again you had that very tightknit blue-collaring community, uh, that, you know, kinda felt that they were being disenfranchised. And probably, um, things that, uh—feelings [unintelligible 22:02] had obviously the kids usually what the parents think they think. And I think out there as I recall the Glasgow incident, uh, that had—there was a big incident in the whole parking lot between Whites and Blacks. A fight. A pretty serious fight, actually. No students were seriously injured but, um, a very, very nasty incident at the end of the day. And it had to do with, you know, people calling one another names, you know. And— Oloye Adeyemon: So were these just students? This didn't involve adults at all? Thomas Quinn: No. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And was that successfully diffused? Thomas Quinn: And that was successfully diffused. Oloye Adeyemon: there weren't further incidents in the school after? Thomas Quinn: There was—in Glasgow there was always tension. And the reverse of that. the schools north of Wilmington such as Mount Pleasant, [Unintelligible 22:58], Concord, uh, A.I. Du Pont, uh, where you had probably, uh, a higher educated community of parents. A higher economic group of parents. Uh, that integration, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Went more smoothly. Thomas Quinn: Went very smoothly. Had very, very few incidents at all. Oloye Adeyemon: Now there were four, uh, divisions of the New Castle School District. What were those four? Thomas Quinn: Well at that time they just called 'em District one, two, three, and four, which has merged into what we call the Brandywine School District, the Colonial School District, the Red Clay School District, and, um—Brandywine, Colonial, Red Clay—I'm missing one. Oloye Adeyemon: Under that designation one, two, three, and four did both of these incidents—the Glasgow incident and the first one you mentioned. Did they occur in the same, uh, division? Thomas Quinn: Um… Oloye Adeyemon: New Castle division of the schools. Thomas Quinn: Um, the Glasgow incident would be—I can't believe I'm forgettin' the name of what we call that now. Um— Oloye Adeyemon: These were more or less [crosstalk 24:17]. Thomas Quinn: The Conrad would be in what we call the, um, Red Clay. And [fading voice 24:22] forget this. Um, and the Glasgow was in what we call the Brandywine School District. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Thomas Quinn: And by an act of our general assembly after about, uh, I guess about after five years they allowed them. Because the first five years it was just the whole of New Castle County and the four component school district with one superintendent. And-and then you had assistant superintendents in each of the four component districts. But by act of the general assembly they were allowed to then break up into four independently separate school districts. Brandywine, Colonial, Christiana, and Red Clay. And they all operate to this day. Oloye Adeyemon: So Wilmington—the city of Wilmington is divided into four schools. Thomas Quinn: Well, they had to be assimilated into those for component districts, yes. Oloye Adeyemon: What was the third incident that you remember? Thomas Quinn: Uh, lemme see. What was the major third one? uh, I actually think the major third was another highly racial tension down in Glasgow High again. And— Oloye Adeyemon: Same kind situation. Thomas Quinn: Same but in this case it was no physical violence. Just more of the rumor type of thing. Oloye Adeyemon: So had it not been for your office things coulda been much more difficult. Thomas Quinn: Uh, in terms of dealing with those independent isolated incidents, uh, it was great that we had the staffing to get down and do those types of things. And we were able to get with, um, the leaders of the group, major antagonists. And we would talk to them and find out exactly, uh, how they were feeling and what the problem was and what sparked this. and we were able to get the kids. And, uh, more importantly I think was the work that we do with the parents. Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause you were proactive also. Thomas Quinn: Yes. Well, you know, in the goals and objectives of the program was to, um, bring the two communities and cultures and diversity that existed between them, uh, and work those things out. Uh, and we were, I mean, we were just popping all the time. You had—one of the things that we did that the regular staff could've never dealt with is, um, so you had your high school sports programs and things like that. Um, so the community both White and Black "Well, how come the basketball team's all Black but there has to be so many minority female cheerleaders?" We were dealing with things like that, which seems like a minor thing. But to the people impacted was a major thing. And, you know, those were things we had to deal with. Um. Oloye Adeyemon: I understand. So going back. Um, you-you—I was asking and I'm glad we—you-you interjected what you did about the incidents. But you were explaining, um, how these federal programs were set up during that time. Uh, so did I understand you to say before we began the interview that Wilmington was a pilot project? Thomas Quinn: I-I think so. I think this was the first place this was done. And that I'm not too sure but [crosstalk 28:02]. Oloye Adeyemon: We'll be footnoting the transcripts so we'll-we'll do a little research to something else if in fact that was the case. But this was not something that was, uh, put in place to be a permanent program. This was something that was funded for a specific period of time. Thomas Quinn: It was supposed to be funded for five years, okay. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And I know that the human relations program they started to cut the funding at the end of the third year. Oloye Adeyemon: Why? Thomas Quinn: Okay. Uh, just whatever they do down at the U.S. Senate [laughter]. whatever they do down in congress. Uh, the home and school they—I think that they kept limited funds for the full five years. But in the initial stage of the program there was a human relations person in every school, okay. Oloye Adeyemon: And you didn't have funding [crosstalk 28:51]. Thomas Quinn: And there was a home and school liaison person in every school. The home and school liaison program was more to work with, uh, grades and parents in the community. One of the big things that I can tell ya is that, uh—I guess your researchers could have information on this. As a former city teacher for six years—seven before that, okay—is one of the things that I thought from the city community and some people today. Uh, we're having a great controversy right now about the new law in the state of Delaware about the return to neighborhood schools. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And in our minority community today we're pretty much divided in terms of, uh—especially K through six. Even though the same housing patterns exist as they did 25 years ago would not our city schools even though you'd probably have 90 percent minorities inner city schools if we do the home school, uh, um, scenario that they wanna do. But would not the parents and student be better off because the parents can get to school and deal with the teachers and deal with the problems. One'a the problems that I saw as a human relations specialist at, uh—my first, uh, my first assignment was at Warner Elementary School, which is a large elementary school which was four, five, and six at that time. Uh, which was located right in the middle of the city. I also at the time I had two schools but I had a partner. So if I was at Warner, she was at Greenville. If she was at Greenville, I was at Warner. Oloye Adeyemon: What was your title? Thomas Quinn: I was a human relations specialist. Oloye Adeyemon: So there were two. Thomas Quinn: Okay. And there was two who worked as a team. And they used to try and do it male and female. And, um, and we split our time between the schools. And one'a things that I saw was that as a former teacher in the city school district was if I needed to see a parent because of poor grades, behavior, acting, whatever the problem was, I could pretty much call. The mom could walk to the school. Someone from the family could get to school. And that existed in the first year of deseg at Warner, which was a city school. Out at Greenville, okay, there was really—you didn't have a very good mass transportation [unintelligible 31:20] New Castle County. And, uh, so if I had—if a teacher came to me like a classic human relations specialist [unintelligible 31:27] able to get a hold of the parents. Um, one'a the things that I would do—and I just did this myself—is I would just get in the car, and being a former city resident and being a city resident all my life actually. If I knew that mom lived at 412 East Four Street, I'd call mom. Or if mom didn't have a phone, I'd be out knocking the door and say, "You know, Mrs. Brown, we need to go see Mrs., uh, Stooges up here at Greenville Elementary School. Your son's having a little problem." So I saw that in the suburban school districts where our city kids had to go out there parents had an accessibility problem. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Now there's—you've touched on two issues that seem to be at the core of, uh, the debate today. Uh, on the one hand there is an argument that racial bounds needs to be achieved for both the good of Black and White students because the world is diverse—or the community is diverse. Therefore, people need to be able to go to school not just to learn but to socialize. And to learn how to get along with people who may be of different background. Then there's this other issue of quality education. And even in some areas where, uh, integration isn't the issue at all, uh, there's a great deal of concern about the quality of education. And when we talk about neighborhood schools particular in areas where it means that there'll be essentially all Black schools with little, uh, you know, opportunity to invest as wealthy, uh, suburban districts might be able to do we get into what was at the core of the earliest cases. And that's the quality of the resources that are available to the students. Um, as people are looking at this in Delaware, um, what are the—are people considering the impact if neighborhood schools are chosen? You know, what-what are some of the-the issues that, uh, would be a part'a that as far as the education is concerned? Thomas Quinn: At this point in time as of June 30th of this year the general assembly did not act. There was some thought that they might reconsider and revisit the whole neighborhood school fact in the past year before. So as we sit here now neighborhood schools are supposed to occur. Theoretically since it's gonna be the same school districts 'cause they didn't really change the plan, the city was given the option to maybe have their own school district again, which they kinda, uh, differed on that. They didn't wanna do that. they did present a plan, um, that was not acted upon, and it was probably a good plan. It was called the Brandywine River plan. And that was so that students from the city wouldn't have to be bussed all the way out the Christiana District. And the Colonial District, which is quite a ride. You're going—to get to some of the schools—to get to Newark High, to get to Glasgow High, to get to Christiana High the city kids especially for junior high and senior high really travelled 15 mile [unintelligible 35:07] I-95. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And the argument on the suburban side is that the suburban kids have to travel the 15 miles on the I-95 for grades, uh, four, five, and six. Because what's occurred here is in the whole time is that the suburban kids were bussed into the city for four, five, and six, the city students were bussed out for nine years. And the [crosstalk 35:33]— Oloye Adeyemon: Not the four, five, and six but the other years. Thomas Quinn: The city kids— Oloye Adeyemon: One, two, three, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Thomas Quinn: They were bussed down. Yeah. Okay, it's nine and three. Suburban kids are in the former component school districts for nine years. City kids were bussed down for nine years. But the—what the parents complained about mainly is they'd bring up the safety issue about riding the I-95. It lengthens the school districts—one of the interesting things coming back to that, and one of the things we found in, um our first year is that the suburban kids, the way—one'a the things they had to do was the high school started at 7:15 and we started a little later. Our classes in four, five, and six, and one, two, and three didn't start 'til nine. Because just the availability of busses and drivers and the whole thing. One'a the things we founds is that Warner Elementary School, which is, um, which is in what we call the Red Clay District, we had kids that came off the Limestone road which is what we called [unintelligible 36:38]. It's about a 12-mile drive. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: We didn't get outta Warner school—by the time the last bus pulled away 'cause that was a large elementary school with almost 900 kids. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Thomas Quinn: By the last—by the time the last bus pulled away it was quarter to four. By the time some of these kids reached their destination and home it was 4:30, 20 to 5. And-and this really was a real problem is that, you know, we started to deal with terms that, um, are not as prevalent as we've become more, um, scientifically aware of, uh, syndromes and things that we have like deprivation. One'a the things we found was that a typical fourth-grade kid got off the bus at quarter to five, and by October, November they didn't really have any play time 'cause it was dark. And of course that basically really exists still to this day. They have compressed the elementary times and they get the kids home a little bit sooner. But those were some of the-the dynamics of the change that folks really didn't think about. And we actually really had, um, discussions that was part of the human relations and the parents brought this up. And of course that debate continued for the next 20 years about, you know, it takes our kids too long to get to school, and by the time they get home it's too late to do anything. Oloye Adeyemon: Has there been any discussion about, uh, creating more equity in the amount of money available and—whether it's through taxes or whatever—so that there's more of a balance in terms of the resources that'll be available if neighborhood schools is the decision that's made? Thomas Quinn: Well, in our—in the neighborhood school act the moneys would be equal. Oloye Adeyemon: How would that be achieved? Thomas Quinn: Uh, whatever, um—well, because the state funds about 65 percent of total educational— Oloye Adeyemon: So the state would know [crosstalk 38:32] the difference would be? Thomas Quinn: - per pupil cost would be. Well, as it stands now nothing's going to change. The four component school districts are now compelled by law. They have to follow the new state law and devise plans to get the kids to the closest available school that's practical within the framework of the district. Oloye Adeyemon: And because it's still the same structure it'd be the same amount of money. Thomas Quinn: Amount'a money. So even if, say, for example, the district I'm most familiar the one I just retired to. The Brandywine school district decided to make, um, Harlem school, which is across the street from P.S. Du Pont. So they said that Harlem's going to be the-the K through six school if they decided to do it that way from city residents to the Brandywine school district. Um, so therefore, the amount that people are taxed in Brandywine school district and the state allocation would be exactly the same. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And that would occur in the three other school districts, okay. Oloye Adeyemon: Let me go back and-and-and just clarify something. Earlier you said that it was originally—federal funding was originally for five years and it ended up only being for three. What areas of your program did you have to cut-did you have to cut? Thomas Quinn: They just cut staff, that's all. Oloye Adeyemon: Now it wasn't the staff what made it so effective. Thomas Quinn: I think so, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: So it did-it did affect your ability to do— Thomas Quinn: You know, I can tell you great little stories when I was out at Greenville the first year. That was the first of deseg. And, um, lo and behold what occurs is, uh, um, in late October early November's kind of a funny story. We started to come down with cases of, uh, head lice. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: And of course the—Greenville is what we call in Delaware Chateau Country. And that's where all the Du Pont estates are. It's a very— Oloye Adeyemon: Wealthy. Thomas Quinn: - highly economic community. And, um, so I went down to meet with the nurse because all the White parents were coming in all upset that the kid had—their children had headlice. And of course the transfer was that, well, it's coming from those city kids. And of course as Ruth Gooding, a great nurse, told us probably not. But we have to have a meeting with these parents. And she explained that, uh, most Black people usually—it's unusual for them to have headlice. And-and, uh, we tracked it all down. And of course the community was concerned and up in arms and transferred the problem was the city—these things had happened because of deseg. Of course we found out the case of headlice came from one of the senior—one of the brothers of the students in the highly renowned Tower Hill School, which is, uh, the local high school for the Chateau Country people. Du Ponts and, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughter] Thomas Quinn: And those were the things that the human relations [crosstalk 41:22]— Oloye Adeyemon: Those kinda stereotypical—yeah. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. You know, the headlice came from the kids in the city. And really as minor as the nurse explained to them at that time, uh, Black people it's unusual for them to have headlice. And when we tracked it down [laughter] it was from the Tower Hill school. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. What, um, do you think, uh, about the education the children White and Black had been receiving as a result of this-this additional challenge that parents and teachers and children faced? Thomas Quinn: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: What was the outcome in terms of the education itself? Thomas Quinn: I-I think the prevail-I think the prevailing thought would be is that, um, due to desegregation that, uh, that the basic programs in the school were probably, um—went down. That the challenge that the former all-White suburban school districts that the level of teaching, the level of expectations probably went down somewhat. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So what is it that—again, I understand the neighborhood school plan is on the table. Uh, I guess my question is do you think that the intent of the court order—the supreme court and all the other cases [unintelligible 42:56], uh, which I think were essentially not just to, uh, desegregate and then finally integrate the schools. But I think implicit in that because there were psychologist and psychiatrists that argued about self-esteem and other issues that the intent was also a better education, you know, a better education system. Do you think that that can still be achieved? Thomas Quinn: You've kinda alluded to three things there. Um, trying to understand the intent of people that, uh, that were at the forefront of this and why they press for these changes. And, uh, you know, I think the debate still rages on today. Was it about quality education? Was it about integration? Was it about socialization? Uh— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Can all three of those things be achieved? Thomas Quinn: I think it's about all three, you know. I think that, uh, I think if you go back to when deseg started to occur in our urban centers and White flight. Uh, most cities at that time especially—well, I only know what and especially the northeast [unintelligible 44:20] its own city council from '77 to '84. Oloye Adeyemon: Here in Wilmington. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. And obviously our tax base continued to dwindle from lack of population, from business moving out. And the businesses didn't move out because they didn't like the city. They moved out because that was when the population, um, started to move out. And, um, they could get large suburban tracks and not have to pay [crosstalk 44:50]— Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 44:50]. Thomas Quinn: - wage tax and things like that. So that just-that-that just accelerated the problems that we had in the urban setting at that time. But, uh, uh, to, uh, go back… Oloye Adeyemon: Can we solve all those problems? Thomas Quinn: I-I— Oloye Adeyemon: That's the question that everybody— Thomas Quinn: Well, I-I would say as a person in the school district for 24 years, uh, from the beginning, the first day of desegs and human relations specialists in the next 20 some years or 18 years working with the students. Um, as far as the socialization and diversity and the understanding of cultures I think it's been a success. Oloye Adeyemon: Good. Thomas Quinn: Um, because the kids-the kids-the kids get along, uh, and there's no tension. And I think that, uh, all the rumors and myths about the difference between Blacks and Whites, uh, those things are fine. Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 45:51]. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. One'a the things, uh, in terms of was it a success is success I think in terms of in present day America there's students who have experienced integration that there's no fear between cultures, okay. one of the things I've always laughed about is that if—when I was on recess duty, um, uh, most of the Black girls were doin' their jump rope. And that was pretty much—very seldom did the White girls get involved with the jump roping. Uh, and, um, the boys, uh, there's—I saw because of the—how sports brings people together the boys integrated on their social games more. The girls were more isolated. And for the most part at lunchtime even as recently as this year is when kids went down to lunch, you know, all the Black girls sat with the Black girls, and all the White girls sat with the White girls. And most of the Black guys sat with the Black guys, and most of the White guys sat with the White guys. Football brought them together. Basketball brought them together. But in terms of their social component, even in 2001 the way they acted is proof. It was separate. But— Oloye Adeyemon: But they were still exposed to each other. Thomas Quinn: But—yeah, but they were exposed to each other. And, uh, uh, some'a the things that we, um, you know, when you do a science project, when you do this and you team them up and all those types of things. And one'a the things that's been a success is you would have—like if I had-if I had a special project and the kids were working as a team, you know, we'd randomly pick the kids, you know, just based upon ability level, boy, girl, you know. And also—and one'a the things that all teachers that I think, you know, were sensitized to is, you know, make sure that the groups are integrated, okay. So I think one'a the good things is if you were to do something like that today, I mean, there's no question. a Black child will invite three White kids to their house to work on a project. And a White family will invite two Black kids to come out to their house and work on a project. Those things weren't that way in the beginning of the deseg. So in that aspect, uh, in the socialization, uh, I think there's a better awareness and understanding and less fear. And most of the myths about the two different cultures have been dispelled. Oloye Adeyemon: What are the areas that remain unresolved or unaffected or incomplete? Thomas Quinn: Well, I—you have to draw your own conclusion. Alls I can report as facts is that in my last year teaching is that when you go back is you see my 8 Black guys sittin' together and my 12 White guys sittin' together. And I see the 6 Black girls sittin' together and the 10 White girls sittin' together. And— Oloye Adeyemon: And we also have a-a degree of racial balance within schools. Thomas Quinn: Mm-hmm, yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: So those two areas it seems, you know, in your experience have been affected and it's been positive. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Now what about the quality of education? 'Cause that was the third thing that we talked about. Thomas Quinn: Um— Oloye Adeyemon: Do you-you-you—I think it's been documented and not just in schools that have integrated, but across the country that there's a decline in quality of education in many schools. Thomas Quinn: That-that would be my experience. When I taught at Harlem Elementary school we were working with the university of Pittsburg in a very creative, uh, special reading program at the time. It was between '74 and '77. And Harlem Elementary, which was literally 100 percent minority all city students, we were winning national awards as one of the few urban schools that 75 percent of the schools were on or above grade level in reading and math. Oloye Adeyemon: How— Thomas Quinn: And— Oloye Adeyemon: What was it that you—you know, I'm sure that many people that are gonna be reading this transcript they wanna know what you were doing. Was it so—what was-what was that [crosstalk 50:22]— Thomas Quinn: I think— Oloye Adeyemon: What was it that you were doing to create that project? Thomas Quinn: In my opinion there was two things. I as a young White teacher—and of course I lived in the community, too. So there might've been a little bit of benefit. Most of the minority parents knew me from sports in the neighborhood. And when I was a younger guy and White flight started our family didn't move out. So when I was even a younger guy as the Black families moved in I was the their paperboy. So I might have a little hedge. But, uh, as [unintelligible 50:53] staff before deseg, uh, there was one thing that we're there for, and that was to educate their children. At that was the common goal of all the staff. And one'a the things that we didn't have to deal with, um, um, pre-deseg was that our Black parents were 100 percent behind us. And we didn't have to worry about that we treated kids differently 'cause they were all Black. And so therefore we didn't have to deal with some of the things that teachers had to deal with after deseg was we treated the White kid different than Black kid. 'Cause we had all Black kids. So therefore our community of parents were 100 percent—because the fact that we made—a White teacher made the decision to teach in an all-Black school I think most of the Black parents understood that, you know, these people don't have some of these problems that they might think they have. Oloye Adeyemon: So it seems like there's several things that you're saying made it successful. In your experience one was the parents were involved in education of their children. Thomas Quinn: But they were accessible because they lived in the community. Oloye Adeyemon: And they were accessible. And you as teachers were dedicated to teaching. You were there— Thomas Quinn: Dedicated to teaching. Oloye Adeyemon: You weren't-you weren't there 'cause you didn't have anything else to do. You wanted to do this. and it sounds like you had a good rapport with the parents as well. Thomas Quinn: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: The parents were interested, you were interested, and you worked together. And would you say that that's now lacking in a lotta cases? Thomas Quinn: Well, I-I-I think that, um—and this in my opinion as I conclude my career this year, um, is that teaching whether it be in the integrated setting in New Castle County as we have now, uh, no matter where we are throughout the country is that it becomes increasingly more difficult each day because we throw around these words "accountability". And you have 1,001 magazines and pamphlets, uh, how to interview the teacher. And we have more and more people that come in for conference. And as we say in profession now is, "Gee, I wonder if this is gonna be a conference or a confrontation." We have more and more te—parents who come in and they have their yellow legal pad and they sit down and break down your every word. Um, you have—not all, but we—it becomes more frequent. And this is both Black and White, you know. It's not—as I always say some of the problems we have in education today, uh, it's pretty much the same on both sides. Oloye Adeyemon: And it's a societal issue. Thomas Quinn: Yeah. It's more of a societal issue. Is that, um, gee, son or daughter didn't do very well on this component of their history or their science or language or English. And, um, um you have more and more people say, "Well, gee, well, this material—and my daughter said that you didn't present it very well." And that's on both sides, you know. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So-so if teachers are well trained in the mo—are successful in motivating the students and they have the respect of the parents, you think that this, uh, will be successful. Thomas Quinn: It's [crosstalk 54:13]— Oloye Adeyemon: As you were able to— Thomas Quinn: - you know. Oloye Adeyemon: Might be able to get, uh, the kind of achievements that you had at your school, perhaps. Thomas Quinn: Yes. Well, I, you know, at that time, I mean, that was in our urban setting. And that was our mission. We as staff were proud that we were being written up in national qualifications and all. Oloye Adeyemon: That's-that's—and the parents [crosstalk 54:33]— Oloye Adeyemon: And the parents were 100 percent behind us, you know. Uh, and now some 25 years later most parents, you know, the vast majority are behind it but we deal with [crosstalk 54:48] be White or Black is, uh, that, um, I think if you talk to most teachers throughout the country is that, um, people or parents, uh—which they have a right to, you know. And it's their children's education. You only have one time in your life when you can be educated. It's a very important proposition. If you ever really think about what the role of the teacher is and the impact that you can have on-on-on your students throughout your life it's almost a scary thought. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Thomas Quinn: You know, are you doing the right thing. Oloye Adeyemon: But you were about to say that parents are in— Thomas Quinn: Well, I—well, what my point very simply is that in today's society, you know, our suit happy society and all those types of things, as we are here in New Castle County in our 24th year of integration and desegregation. Uh, as far as the melding of the two groups it really was—to a certain extent it was a non-event. It wasn't like south Boston. It wasn't like some of the other scenes we saw where, you know, rocks being thrown into school busses and things like that. Oloye Adeyemon: Right. Thomas Quinn: I mean, this—but this thing went as smoothly I would think as it possibly could have. Oloye Adeyemon: And so the challenges that you face are challenges to educate children. Thomas Quinn: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And they're ongoing challenges— Thomas Quinn: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - that have to adjust to society changes. Thomas Quinn: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Thank you. Thomas Quinn: Okay. Very good. Thomas Quinn: Oh— [End of Audio]

Description

Quinn graduated from Kutztown University of Pennsylvania before spending 30 years working for the New Castle County school district, and was part of a federal program for desegregation in the area for three years, the rest of his time with the district was spent teaching sixth grade. His interview provides the reader with first-hand accounts from an educator and resident of the area during integration efforts following the Belton (Bulah) v. Gebhart case which continued well into the 1960s.

Date Created

08/16/2001

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