Last updated: July 20, 2023
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Podcast 113: Stories of Women in Archaeology
The Story behind the Stories
Image courtesy of Suzy Eskenazi.
Suzy Eskenazi: Suzy Eskenazi. I'm a principal investigator and archeologist at SWCA Environmental Consultants in Salt Lake City.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: I'm Dr. Nicole Herzog. I'm an assistant professor at the University of Denver.
Dr. Catherine Cooper: Today we're going to be speaking about your recent book, With Grit and Determination: A Century of Change for Women in Great Basin and American Archeology. I would love to know what the impetus for putting this book together was, and how did you approach this project?
Suzy Eskenazi: Really, it started at the 2016 Great Basin Anthropological Conference in Reno. Nicole and I were in the book room. I was waiting in line to get my book signed by Dr. Kay Fowler at the University of Utah press table. And I was speaking with her husband and some other people around me in line, and I just started wondering why, in those meetings they're always giving out awards to men, often the same men over and over. And we were surrounded by accomplished women in that book room, and I thought, why don't we hear more about these women and their stories? And the time was right, and I saw Nicole, and ran over to her, said, “We need to do this!” And she agreed.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yep. Good retelling. Yes. It was like an aha moment. Yes. Maybe we could create a platform so that that could happen. And so Suzy proposed that we organize a symposium for the coming conference. And so, we really got to work, just brainstorming about who we could invite. And we were dreaming big. All the most amazing people we could think of, and we're like, do you think they'd do it? And then, because Suzy is so well connected and she is a fabulous communicator, she reached out to all these people, and they all of course agreed, which was really shocking to us.
Suzy Eskenazi: And I have to say that I have always been interested in the story behind the story. So, we know so much of their research, and their academic, and CRM experience, but how did they get to be where they are and why? And what are all those roadblocks, and major accomplishments they've had? And so we were just so delighted that a lot of these women that we asked, they were all just very modest and couldn't believe that whatever they would have to share would really be of interest to anyone. That really shocked me, as well.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. We knew that the paths to professionalism for women were different than for men, but we didn't feel like that was articulated anywhere. And we just wanted to hear people's personal stories. And when we contacted people, they were like, well, do you want me to talk about my research? Or do you want me to talk about my life? Or what do you want me to do? And we did ask them if they would be willing to talk about their personal narratives or their paths, and of course, that incorporates their research. And then it was a packed room, and it was very much of interest.
Suzy Eskenazi: I know that symposium in 2018 was the most well attended symposium of the conference. So we did a good thing.
From Symposium to Book
Image courtesy of Suzy Eskenazi
Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah, it was almost immediately afterwards. One of our participants, Reba Rauch, she was the acquisitions editor at The Press. And so of course, she was immediately on board and said, yes. And so we just went from there almost immediately after the symposium ended. We did have a few, at least two that I can think of, that were in the symposium that did not contribute to the book, but we had another woman who contributed to the book who wasn't in the symposium.
Dr. Catherine Cooper: What are some of your most memorable interactions around the book, since it's come out?
Suzy Eskenazi: We had a pretty great virtual book signing. It came out during COVID, which was unfortunate. I thought that went really well. And then, we also were at the last Great Basin Conference in Las Vegas this past fall. And so, we were able to do a virtual book signing, which had a very long-
Dr. Nicole Herzog: No, in-person book signing.
Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah, that's what I meant. In-person. Sorry.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: With real people.
Suzy Eskenazi: It was just so fantastic. People brought their books that they'd already bought, and then we sold out at the event.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: And it’s fun just having random people approach and say, "Oh wow. I read that book, and it really meant a lot to me." That has also been a very cool experience, just hearing from people that you don't know, but who are reaching out to you to say, "I was at that symposium and it was just amazing," or, "I read the book and it was just amazing." And so, that part has also been super rewarding, just to have strangers reach out to you and say, "This thing you did was meaningful to me."
Suzy Eskenazi: Like you.
No Single Direction to a Career
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. I think that was one of the biggest surprises for me is, to just hear how circuitous peoples' paths were. The places where people started from and the pit stops they made along the way, and the way that they got engaged in one thing and that took them in one direction, and then they circled back around. It's very affirming to know that there is not one straight path, that all these really successful people took all of these really interesting paths to get where they are. And that was another outcome of the book that was really special, because people did elaborate on their talks in the books, so a lot of the chapters were extended versions. And so we did get greater amount of detail in the written works that was also pretty revealing and a little window into the lives of all of these awesome women.
Vulnerability and sharing difficult experiences. Charlotte Beck's chapter in the book was for me, just one of the most powerful things I've read about persevering through harassment, through mental health issues, through all of these things that impact our lives, but that impact our careers and that people from the outside can't see. When you meet Charlotte, God, she is just the most cheerful, kind, sweet, amazing, charming, wonderful person, and you might not know that she had been through such harrowing experiences that were very hard to overcome. And so I think it's so special that she was brave enough to share that story, because I want people to read those kind of stories too, and to know that these things can happen to you and you can make it through, you can have the support that you need, and that again, you're not alone. That was just so moving to read her chapter, and I'm just so grateful to her for being willing to put her experiences into writing and be so vulnerable.
Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah. I would agree, that was a very intense chapter to write, I'm sure. And I really appreciated how vulnerable all of the women were in their chapters too. I think it took a lot for some of these women to just be able to write about themselves and not just what they do for a living. I really feel honored, that they said yes to share all of their vulnerability, and their experiences with us in a very public way. We are all better for it.
Vulnerability and sharing difficult experiences. Charlotte Beck's chapter in the book was for me, just one of the most powerful things I've read about persevering through harassment, through mental health issues, through all of these things that impact our lives, but that impact our careers and that people from the outside can't see. When you meet Charlotte, God, she is just the most cheerful, kind, sweet, amazing, charming, wonderful person, and you might not know that she had been through such harrowing experiences that were very hard to overcome. And so I think it's so special that she was brave enough to share that story, because I want people to read those kind of stories too, and to know that these things can happen to you and you can make it through, you can have the support that you need, and that again, you're not alone. That was just so moving to read her chapter, and I'm just so grateful to her for being willing to put her experiences into writing and be so vulnerable.
Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah. I would agree, that was a very intense chapter to write, I'm sure. And I really appreciated how vulnerable all of the women were in their chapters too. I think it took a lot for some of these women to just be able to write about themselves and not just what they do for a living. I really feel honored, that they said yes to share all of their vulnerability, and their experiences with us in a very public way. We are all better for it.
The Importance of Mentorship
Dr. Catherine Cooper: What would you want readers or people who were at that symposium to take away from this book, from those talks, and what do you want them to do with what they've learned?
Suzy Eskenazi: I think one of the main points that I really took home was the importance of mentorship and support. And maybe that's because that's one of my personal interests, but I don't feel like anybody could have gotten to where they are without somebody pushing them to be who they could be, and recognize their talents. Even when that meant that some women had to be married to a man, to be able to go in the field, at least in all of these cases, their husbands were very supportive and provided that path for them. I would just love for this book to touch people in that way, and move them into that supportive mentoring place, so that we can help raise each other up and continue with the future generations.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: I agree. I think the mentorship for both of us was the biggest theme that stood out in all of the writings that are in the book. When Suzy and I were asking people to join us, we tried to ask people from all different sectors of work. We thought it was important to have people who worked doing private consulting, people who worked at agencies, people who did research archeology, people who worked in museums, a whole range of people doing all kinds of different work. So I think one of the really cool things that emerges from the book is to see how many ways you can be successful in this job, and how many opportunities are really out there for you. So I hope that anybody who has this idea, that feels like it's maybe out of reach or in left field or something, sees themselves somewhere in that book.
And there's just a lot of different ways to be successful, and to be happy, and to be supported. I hope that people see in the book that they can do any of those things and that also they could come from someplace that didn't feel like the right fit, especially I'm thinking of Charlotte Beck. Boy, I started out doing this thing and it was just the wrong thing. I was just on the wrong path, and I just found it within myself to change gears and to do what I was actually passionate about. And then to be wildly successful at doing that. It's very affirming to follow your gut and to pursue things that are important to you, and that maybe don't fit the mold, or the trajectory of what everybody else is doing, and that's okay.
Dr. Catherine Cooper: What would you recommend to people who are looking for mentorships, and also what would you recommend to people who are new to mentoring?
Suzy Eskenazi: I think it's really important to just ask. We often don't know that someone is looking to us as a mentor until they ask us. I know that's been true. My mentors have never been the same kind of person. It's always there's a personality trait that I see in them that really, oh, I want to know more about that. I want to know how to be a better leader. I want to be a better support to those around me. I want to be a better person for the people around me, and I'm really interested in engagement. And so how can I find those people that also have those common interests? I think throughout my whole career, I've always just tried to find the underling to just bring along with me. I think it's important that we all do that just to be better people and better anthropologists.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. I think you've got to find yourself as Suzy, who's well connected and who likes to connect other people together. Reach out to somebody who knows a lot of people in the field and say, hey, I'm interested in this. Is there somebody who might be willing to talk to me about it? A lot of people are shy. I'm not a very good reacher-outer, but if somebody comes to me, that's really exciting. And I'm really excited to talk with people and to think about ideas together, and share whatever knowledge I might have about things, which maybe isn't much. But again, find somebody that is a node, who's in the center of things and look to them to see who might they connect you with. But like Suzy said, the most important thing is reaching out.
Suzy and I learned this lesson doing this project, where we were afraid to reach out to these women because we were like, no, they're too busy. They're too big for us. We can't reach out to them. And we were afraid to do that. And then we got these responses back. They were so modest and they were excited, and they were encouraging. And it was like, oh wow, that really wasn't as scary as I thought it would be at all. Nobody was like, oh, absolutely not. I'm not interested in that. That was just not the case. I think it would be very rare to reach out to anybody and have them say that. But we have this fear about reaching out to people and being vulnerable to people. And I don't know if I have any advice for how to get better at that, but maybe just know that it will probably not be terrible. It will probably end up in something really, really special.
Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah. I think what you're speaking to was true for Lorann Pendleton, who wrote the foreword to our book. We didn't know her at all. And then we found out about her and just asked. She was modest like everybody else. But then she wrote this incredible foreword that fit perfectly with the theme of the book. And when we met her in Vegas at the last conference, I was absolutely starstruck. I just looked over and she was standing next to me. And I said, oh my gosh, you wrote the foreword to our book. That's you. And it was just such a delight. Like Nicole says, you just have to expect that people will say yes. What is the worst that could happen? Nobody's ever going to, hopefully, just absolutely say no.
Suzy Eskenazi: I think one of the main points that I really took home was the importance of mentorship and support. And maybe that's because that's one of my personal interests, but I don't feel like anybody could have gotten to where they are without somebody pushing them to be who they could be, and recognize their talents. Even when that meant that some women had to be married to a man, to be able to go in the field, at least in all of these cases, their husbands were very supportive and provided that path for them. I would just love for this book to touch people in that way, and move them into that supportive mentoring place, so that we can help raise each other up and continue with the future generations.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: I agree. I think the mentorship for both of us was the biggest theme that stood out in all of the writings that are in the book. When Suzy and I were asking people to join us, we tried to ask people from all different sectors of work. We thought it was important to have people who worked doing private consulting, people who worked at agencies, people who did research archeology, people who worked in museums, a whole range of people doing all kinds of different work. So I think one of the really cool things that emerges from the book is to see how many ways you can be successful in this job, and how many opportunities are really out there for you. So I hope that anybody who has this idea, that feels like it's maybe out of reach or in left field or something, sees themselves somewhere in that book.
And there's just a lot of different ways to be successful, and to be happy, and to be supported. I hope that people see in the book that they can do any of those things and that also they could come from someplace that didn't feel like the right fit, especially I'm thinking of Charlotte Beck. Boy, I started out doing this thing and it was just the wrong thing. I was just on the wrong path, and I just found it within myself to change gears and to do what I was actually passionate about. And then to be wildly successful at doing that. It's very affirming to follow your gut and to pursue things that are important to you, and that maybe don't fit the mold, or the trajectory of what everybody else is doing, and that's okay.
Dr. Catherine Cooper: What would you recommend to people who are looking for mentorships, and also what would you recommend to people who are new to mentoring?
Suzy Eskenazi: I think it's really important to just ask. We often don't know that someone is looking to us as a mentor until they ask us. I know that's been true. My mentors have never been the same kind of person. It's always there's a personality trait that I see in them that really, oh, I want to know more about that. I want to know how to be a better leader. I want to be a better support to those around me. I want to be a better person for the people around me, and I'm really interested in engagement. And so how can I find those people that also have those common interests? I think throughout my whole career, I've always just tried to find the underling to just bring along with me. I think it's important that we all do that just to be better people and better anthropologists.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. I think you've got to find yourself as Suzy, who's well connected and who likes to connect other people together. Reach out to somebody who knows a lot of people in the field and say, hey, I'm interested in this. Is there somebody who might be willing to talk to me about it? A lot of people are shy. I'm not a very good reacher-outer, but if somebody comes to me, that's really exciting. And I'm really excited to talk with people and to think about ideas together, and share whatever knowledge I might have about things, which maybe isn't much. But again, find somebody that is a node, who's in the center of things and look to them to see who might they connect you with. But like Suzy said, the most important thing is reaching out.
Suzy and I learned this lesson doing this project, where we were afraid to reach out to these women because we were like, no, they're too busy. They're too big for us. We can't reach out to them. And we were afraid to do that. And then we got these responses back. They were so modest and they were excited, and they were encouraging. And it was like, oh wow, that really wasn't as scary as I thought it would be at all. Nobody was like, oh, absolutely not. I'm not interested in that. That was just not the case. I think it would be very rare to reach out to anybody and have them say that. But we have this fear about reaching out to people and being vulnerable to people. And I don't know if I have any advice for how to get better at that, but maybe just know that it will probably not be terrible. It will probably end up in something really, really special.
Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah. I think what you're speaking to was true for Lorann Pendleton, who wrote the foreword to our book. We didn't know her at all. And then we found out about her and just asked. She was modest like everybody else. But then she wrote this incredible foreword that fit perfectly with the theme of the book. And when we met her in Vegas at the last conference, I was absolutely starstruck. I just looked over and she was standing next to me. And I said, oh my gosh, you wrote the foreword to our book. That's you. And it was just such a delight. Like Nicole says, you just have to expect that people will say yes. What is the worst that could happen? Nobody's ever going to, hopefully, just absolutely say no.
Always More Stories to Tell
Dr. Catherine Cooper: Will you be following up on the book in any way?
Suzy Eskenazi: We both would love to.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. It's been really fun. Kay Fowler's husband, Don, has been a really big supporter of this project. And so after the book came out, he's like, oh by the way, you guys should do this person, and oh, you should talk about this person. And he's sending us all these snippets, and tidbits, and stories. It's endless. Of course, we talk about it regularly like, okay, what are we going to do next? When are we going to get started on the next thing? And there's so much to do. It would be fun to bring more people into the fold too, because when we did this, we were sort of narrow minded. We were thinking about, let's talk to Great Basin archeologists, because that was the conference that we were at, and we both work in the Great Basin.
When we sent everything to the Press, we were talking about the vision for this project. People were like, why is this about Great Basin archeology? What are you doing here? This is a story about what it is to be an aspiring professional in America. A, it's maybe not even about archeology, but B, probably we don't need to limit ourselves to the Great Basin. And so that's kind of how it broadened in scale, because it was obvious that these are universal stories that aren't necessarily about working in a particular region. Of course, there are historical particularities about the Great Basin that make those stories different. But the theme is really, it runs throughout. The folks at the Press and the people that reviewed the book were all, this is about American archeology. This is not about Great Basin archeology. Yeah, that's true. And so now, do we need to do this bigger project?
Suzy Eskenazi: I really would like to continue on this path. It's so important.
Suzy Eskenazi: We both would love to.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. It's been really fun. Kay Fowler's husband, Don, has been a really big supporter of this project. And so after the book came out, he's like, oh by the way, you guys should do this person, and oh, you should talk about this person. And he's sending us all these snippets, and tidbits, and stories. It's endless. Of course, we talk about it regularly like, okay, what are we going to do next? When are we going to get started on the next thing? And there's so much to do. It would be fun to bring more people into the fold too, because when we did this, we were sort of narrow minded. We were thinking about, let's talk to Great Basin archeologists, because that was the conference that we were at, and we both work in the Great Basin.
When we sent everything to the Press, we were talking about the vision for this project. People were like, why is this about Great Basin archeology? What are you doing here? This is a story about what it is to be an aspiring professional in America. A, it's maybe not even about archeology, but B, probably we don't need to limit ourselves to the Great Basin. And so that's kind of how it broadened in scale, because it was obvious that these are universal stories that aren't necessarily about working in a particular region. Of course, there are historical particularities about the Great Basin that make those stories different. But the theme is really, it runs throughout. The folks at the Press and the people that reviewed the book were all, this is about American archeology. This is not about Great Basin archeology. Yeah, that's true. And so now, do we need to do this bigger project?
Suzy Eskenazi: I really would like to continue on this path. It's so important.
Image courtesy of Suzy Eskenazi
Suzy Eskenazi: For me, I also was starstruck for sure, but I also appreciated that my very first archeology boss was in the symposium, and she's in the book. And she's somebody who has shaped me as a professional. And there are other women in there that I've known for a long time, that are just in the trenches, they're just doing their work. And so it was just really nice to be able to shine a light on the everyday woman working in the field. And I would second what Nicole said, that we went out to have a glass of wine after the symposium, and it really was one of the highlights of my life probably. It was very, very special.
Dr. Catherine Cooper: Thank you both so much for talking with me.
Suzy Eskenazi: Thank you so much.
Dr. Nicole Herzog: Well, thank you for reaching out to us. It's been wonderful talking with you.
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