Paul Cavise and Bill Fabian

Paul Cavise

NPS Photo

Sandy Hook, Gateway NRA, NPS
Oral History Interview with Paul Cavise, Bill Fabian, and family, 43rd Air Defense Artillery, 1972-75
by Thomas Greene, Monmouth University, NPS intern,
April 27, 2003.
Transcribed by Thomas Greene 2003

Thomas Greene: Good afternoon gentlemen. Thanks for taking the time to do this interview with me. I’d like to start off with some general background questions. First for you Mr. Cavise. When and where were you born?

Paul Cavise: 3-15-50 upstate New York.

Thomas Greene: And you Mr. Fabian?

Bill Fabian: January of 1952 in New York.

Thomas Greene: Okay. And where did you guys attend school?

Paul Cavise: You mean like undergraduate?

Thomas Greene: Yeah.

Paul Cavise: I went to trade school. I didn’t really go to college. I went to the United States Military Academy at West Point. That’s where I graduated from. And then I went to college after that and got my Master’s and then I got my Doctorate at Rutgers University.

Bill Fabian: I went to high school.

Thomas Greene: Were any of you relatives like you father or grandfather in the military?

Paul Cavise: My father was in the military and served as an infantryman and an artilleryman and an armored officer during World War II in the Pacific Theater.

Bill Fabian: My father was his footman.

Thomas Greene: Okay.

Paul Cavise: (To Fabian) Did you give your name down and everything?

Bill Fabian: He knows it.

Paul Cavise: Did I give my name?

Bill Fabian: No, he knows that too.

Paul Cavise: It’s on the tape?

Bill Fabian: It is on the tape.

Paul Cavise: Okay.

Thomas Greene: How did you gentlemen become involved at Fort Hancock.

Paul Cavise: How long an answer do you want? Not too long?

Thomas Greene: Go ahead, go.

Paul Cavise: How long is the tape?

Thomas Greene: It’s I think a half hour on each side.

Paul Cavise: Alright. I was at West Point...

Bill Fabian: Just tell him all the good jobs were gone and you got this one. Don’t get carried away.

Paul Cavise: Well, I was at West Point and you get to pick where you want to be stationed if you graduate high enough in the class. This my usual, this is what it is right. And then I graduated high enough I wanted to be stationed near New York so I picked Fort Hancock because it was near New York City. And that’s how I got stationed here out of West Point. How about you Bill?

Bill Fabian: I specifically picked Sandy Hook because I thought it was the best beach on the coast of New Jersey.

Paul Cavise: Hey, wait a minute now. Did you get drafted?

Bill Fabian: No.

Paul Cavise: You did not get drafted?

Bill Fabian: No.

Paul Cavise: See, we were in during the draft right, which is a question you ought to put in like: Why weren’t you in the draft? Because it was during Vietnam.

Thomas Greene: Right.

Paul Cavise: And it was during the draft and I went to West Point so I didn’t have to go to Vietnam because if you went to West Point you didn’t have to go to Vietnam.

Thomas Greene: Oh, really?

Paul Cavise: Yeah. Right. So, you can’t be in West Point and Vietnam at the same time.

Thomas Greene: Okay.

Paul Cavise: So then I pick New York and so I don’t have to go to Vietnam. Bill enlisted I guess right? Instead of going to Vietnam, right? So, if you enlisted you were able to pick your first assignment which wasn’t Vietnam obviously.

Thomas Greene: I see. Okay. What date were you at Fort Hancock. Between what years?

Paul Cavise: ‘73-‘74.

Bill Fabian: ‘72 through ‘75.

Thomas Greene: Okay. Did you know anything about Fort Hancock before you arrived here.

Paul Cavise: I knew nothing about it at all. I didn’t know much about its history, why it was here, it’s mission, or anything.

Bill Fabian: I knew it was a sand bar.

Paul Cavise: I was even unfamiliar with New Jersey. So, I didn’t even know anything about New Jersey.

Thomas Greene: Did you have any idea of what type of jobs you’d be doing at Fort Hancock?

Paul Cavise: Well sure, I did because I had had extensive training having gone to West Point and everything. You know, you know everything. You come out a general. So, I knew everything. I’d been trained in everything at Fort Bliss before I came here. You now, everything. So I knew exactly what the job was going to be.

Bill Fabian: Me too.

Thomas Greene: What were your ranks or titles when you were at Fort Hancock.

Paul Cavise: Well, I was an officer and I started out as Second Lieutenant when I first got here. And I was platoon leader, IFC (Integrated Fire Control) Control Officer, and Executive Officer of the Battery. And then I became First Lieutenant and everything while I was here, right. And that’s when I became Executive Officer of the Battery after that. So, I was First and Second Lieutenant, Platoon Leader, IFC Control Officer, and then after First Lieutenant I became Executive Officer of the Battery.

Bill Fabian: I was an E-5 when I was here, which is a first-level Sergeant.

Thomas Greene: Okay.

Paul Cavise: Wait, you started out E-5?

Bill Fabian: No. One doesn’t start out E-5.

Paul Cavise: No. What were you when you first got here?

Bill Fabian: I was an E-4.

Paul Cavise: Yeah, and then you went to E-5. What were you when you left?

Bill Fabian: E-5.

Thomas Greene: And what was your job?

Bill Fabian: I was a typist.

Paul Cavise: No. What was your job officially?

Bill Fabian: That’s what I was. I was a typist.

Paul Cavise: What was your M.O.S.?

Thomas Greene: What’s M.O.S.?

Paul Cavise: I was 1180. M.O.S. is Military Occupational Specialty, and I was 1180 which is a Missileman as an officer. What was your M.O.S.?

Bill Fabian: 75 Bravo 30.

Paul Cavise: 75 Bravo 30 which is a Court Typist. You’re right. You were right. You’re always right.

Thomas Greene: So, could you talk a little bit about the departments you worked for and what you actually did?

Paul Cavise: Okay, well you gotta understand. See, like when we were stationed we were regular Army, you know. And not in Vietnam, right?

Bill Fabian: No, we were here at Sandy Hook.

Paul Cavise: (Laughing) We were here at Sandy Hook, right. We weren’t in Vietnam. That’s the important thing. So, the thing is, we had a mission, a regular Army mission. We weren’t National Guard or any of that other stuff. We didn’t have to do with the fort in other ways, coastal, Coast Guard, or anything like that. So we just had our simple mission and we had the mission of the missiles. So, our departments were the missile battery itself.

Bill Fabian: Could you give us all the mission of the missile and everything?

Paul Cavise: Yeah, well I could do the whole mission of the missiles and all that stuff and the mission statement and all that stuff. I could give you our battle orders if you want, but I’m not going to go into all that detail, right. Battle Orders. There’s ten battle orders, you know.

Mark Fabian (Bill's son): Yeah.

Paul Cavise: You know, like number ten is never leave your post, stuff like that. But I’m not going to go through all that battle orders stuff.

Mark Fabian: You mean like the Ten Commandments?

Paul Cavise: It’s like the Ten Commandments if you’re in the military, right. It’s the Ten Commandments of the military, battle orders, right. Exactly. But I was IFC control officer, you know. I was in charge of pushing the fire button.

Bill Fabian: I hooked up the dry cell battery.

Paul Cavise: Did you really? Was that your mission?

Bill Fabian: Yeah, that was my mission.

Paul Cavise: See, hewas in charge of pushing the fire button. He was in charge of the dry cell battery. Oh, that was an important function.

Bill Fabian: Everybody has their function.

Paul Cavise: Yeah.

Thomas Greene: Could you talk a little bit about your education at West Point and how that was for you?

Paul Cavise: Was that on the script?

Thomas Greene: I added that in.

Paul Cavise: Oh, cool. Good job. Well, my education at West Point is usual education at West Point. They train you in all the branches. All five military combat armed branches. And it just so happens that Air Defense Artillery was a combat arm. You know, as much as I was stationed at Sandy Hook, pretty far from combat, I was in a combat arm. And so, I kind of got over that way a little bit. You could have been an Infantry or something like that dodging bullets in the Far East or something, but I wasn’t. I was in the air defense. However in Vietnam...

Bill Fabian: There’s some very interesting history of West Point. Ask him about Douglas MacArthur.

Paul Cavise: Well, there’s really interesting history about West Point. Douglas MacArthur and his mother is something I’m not going to get into on this tape.

Bill Fabian: Yeah, but it’s a very interesting thing.

Thomas Greene: Go ahead, tell it. Do you want to tell it?

Paul Cavise: No, I’m not.

Bill Fabian: Tell him a little bit about how Douglas MacArthur’s mother lived with him at West Point.

Paul Cavise: Well no, she lived with him at West Point and everything like that. And he used to go every night before exams to his mother and she used to make him some special food and everything so he could pass the exams and all that stuff. So, after they both died, MacArthur and his mother, what we did was we put a statue up at West Point and every night before exams, big exams, you’re supposed to sneak out at night and you’re supposed to go over to the MacArthur statue and you’re supposed to rub it’s whatever. (Laughter).

Thomas Greene: Something I didn’t know.

Paul CaviseC: Right. Right. Right.

Thomas Greene: Do you feel that the jobs that you performed at Fort Hancock aided you in your future work and in your future life?

Paul Cavise: Well, for me it did because of the military industrial complex and the revolving door, you know, I was able to leave this job immediately and go to work for a military industrial firm. Computer science corporation in the area of technology of missiles and building weapons systems. So, sure it helped. It was like a revolving door. You’d go right from the military and right into the military industrial complex.

Thomas Greene: Same question.

Bill Fabian: I’m just lost. I’m still lost. (Laughter).

Paul Cavise: He wants to know what you did. You could become a laundry man.

Bill Fabian: I could.

Paul Cavise: Yeah.

Thomas Greene: Were there ever any alerts of possible enemy attacks while you were here?

Paul Cavise: Sure.

Bill Fabian: Go ahead.

Paul Cavise: No. You’re the one that remembers it.

Bill Fabian: But I don’t remember the date.

Mark Fabian: I remember it!

Bill Fabian: Here, Mark knows.

Paul Cavise: Mark knows.

Mark Fabian: Alright, well this is a funny story that my mom told me about a red alert at three o’clock in the morning. And on his way to the red alert he bought Dunkin Donuts. (Laughter).

Paul Cavise: That is funny. That sounds like Bill. We used to get red alerts all the time because you know, something would happen in the world. Like in ‘73 when the Israelis invaded the Sinai Peninsula. You know, there was this turmoil in the world so there would be this red alert. Like they do now with Iraq and stuff.

Thomas Greene: Right.

Paul Cavise: Right. Same thing. So whenever they had a red alert we’d have to go and we’d have to stay over night at the missile site and everything. That’s why Bill brought the donuts.(Laughter).

Bill Fabian: Well, somebody has to bring the donuts. (Laughter).

Thomas Greene: Were there any particular procedures that you had to go through during these red alerts?

Paul Cavise: Well sure, you gotta go through and you gotta check all your missiles and make sure that they’re ready to be fired. That takes a lot. Then you gotta test all your weapons systems and all your computers and make sure they’re working. Yeah, that’s a lot.

Bill Fabian: Kept you busy for at least a day or two. (Laughter).

Paul Cavise: Yeah. Then we played foosball. (Laughter).

Thomas Greene: Do you recall the buildings you worked in while you were here?

Paul Cavise: Absolutely, because one had a foosball machine and that’s what we would do. We’d sit around all night long when we were on red alert and we would play foosball all night long. And then we’d go out and play with the killer dogs sometimes that were encircling the missiles or you know we’d do anything to keep ourselves occupied. During the day, we would getup on the radar scopes and look up and down the beaches for women and you know, you keep busy. You got anything else?

Bill Fabian: No, I can’t possibly. That was building 76 {building 74) that he lived and worked in.

Paul Cavise: Right.

Thomas Greene: Were you working with civilians, military, or a combination?

Paul Cavise: Sure. Civilians, military, everything, because they had civilian technicians a lot of times, right? Yeah. The civilian technicians they had to call in because they had the institutional knowledge of the systems and stuff, and the contractors who built the systems they would come in a lot because they institutional knowledge of the system that we were using, the computer system and stuff. You gotta understand, this is 1973 so we got vacuum tubes in these computers. So, this is really really hard stuff to maintain, and it was like constant maintenance all the time. Constant civilians all the time maintaining the equipment.

Thomas Greene: Okay. Now do you recall the buildings you lived in?

Paul Cavise: Yeah, we lived first in the officer’s club, upstairs on the second floor?

Sherri Cavise (Paul's wife): Something like that.

Paul Cavise: Second floor of the Officer’s Club. You want to talk about that?

Sherri Cavise: No.

Paul Cavise: No? You don’t want to talk about it?

Sherri Cavise: It was empty except for us.

Paul Cavise: It was empty. The Officer’s Club was completely empty. It wasn’t even being used.

Bill Fabian: What building number was that?

Sherri Cavise: I don’t know.

Paul Cavise: Because they didn’t have any military quarters available when we first got assigned. So, they were going to throw us out in Holmdel, New Jersey which was like going to Kansas in 1973 or live in the Officer’s Club. So, we lived in the Officer’s Club on the second floor. They didn’t have a kitchen or anything so we used an electric frying pan to make all our meals and I think we had a TV and that was it. That was our life, right?

Sherri Cavise: I think once we lived in the men’s barracks?

Paul Cavise: For a couple... for a little while.

Sherri Cavise: For like a week.

Paul Cavise: A week right. Trying to find... even before we got the Officer’s Club. Right. And before that we lived in a motel because they didn’t have anything else, right. Yeah, it was pretty tough to get housing around here. Really tough, and then eventually we got sick of living in the Officer’s Club so we just bought a condo. We were the first ones to buy a condo at Twin Lights Terrace in Highlands. We bought the very first one just to get someplace to live. Where’d you live Bill?

Bill Fabian: Highland Park.

Paul Cavise: Highland Park the whole time?

Bill Fabian: But I had a room at the battery in the B.O.Q.

Paul Cavise: B.O.Q. or B.E.Q.?

Bill Fabian: B.O.Q.

Paul Cavise: B.O.Q.?

Bill Fabian: It was only our bachelor’s officer’s quarters.

Paul Cavise: You lived in Highland Park? You commuted everyday to and from work?

Bill Fabian: I did as a matter of fact.

Mark Fabian: Is that when you got the donuts?

Bill Fabian: No, this is Highland Park.

Paul Cavise: You were in New Brunswick when you first started, then you moved to Highland Park?

Bill Fabian: Right.

Paul Cavise: Oh.

Bill Fabian: But the donuts occurred...Highland Park.

Paul Cavise: Highland Park donuts. They were good.

Thomas Greene: You just mentioned you started cooking your own meals with the electric frying pan. There was no mess hall that you could eat at?

Paul Cavise: Oh, there absolutely was a mess hall. Yeah, I was the Mess Officer.

Mark Fabian: Did you like the food?

Paul Cavise: As a matter of fact we did. We did like the food and Sherri’s food in particular. What’d you like best Sherri?

Sherri Cavise: the cake... the white cake.

Paul Cavise: The white cake. Yeah. She used to love the white cake. I was the Mess Officer. There was a mess facility and we used to eat there all the time. You know, breakfast and lunch and everything. I guess you go home at night and I didn’t eat with the troops because I was an officer. And he went home to Highland Park, right Bill?

Bill Fabian: I did.

Paul Cavise: So the mess hall is mostly for the troops, you know, not the officers.

Thomas Greene: Okay. What kind of recreation or social activities did you take part in while you were here?

Paul Cavise: Beach!

Thomas Greene: Beach mostly?

Sherri Cavise: Well, there was an Officer’s Club. They always had some kind of social...

Paul Cavise: Well, yeah they had social...

Sherri Cavise: They had gambling night where they had...

Thomas Greene: Did they have the theater and everything?

Paul Cavise: The theater was open and they had the Officer’s Club. They’d have events in the Officer’s Club like the gambling night. That was fun.

Sherri Cavise: And they’d have the casino night where they’d give away prizes.

Paul Cavise: Yeah. And they’d have battalion functions. They would have formal nights where they would have formal dinners and you’d dress up.

Thomas Greene: Were there any sporting events or anything like that?

Paul Cavise: No, nothing like that. It was all just military stuff for the active military. It was all like regular Army military as opposed to National Guard or anything like that. So, the regular Army had their way of doing things. You know they’d have their battalions, their formals. We used to get together with the other officers and we’d have parties and bridge and stuff. It was like a little social community, you know, of people that we’d socialize in amongst ourselves.

Thomas Greene: Did you attend church or religious services while you were here?

Paul Cavise: Yeah, you did that?

Bill Fabian: No, you did.

Paul Cavise: I did?

Bill Fabian: You were the religious officer.

Paul Cavise: I was the religious officer too?

Bill Fabian: You used to do sunrise service on the beach every third Wednesday.

Paul Cavise: Really?

Bill Fabian: Don’t you remember that?

Paul Cavise: No. Yeah. It wasn’t a big deal. Religion wasn’t a big deal. Everybody had churches off post and stuff.

Thomas Greene: Okay. Now you said you went to the beach. Do you know what beach? Or the whole?

Paul Cavise: No, the whole thing was owned by the fort. There was no beach. It’s not like today where you have A-B-C-D-E-F-G beach. There was no like A-B-C-D-E-F-G beach. It was just all like fort beach. It was all Fort Hancock . All the beaches were ours everywhere. Yeah. Is that true Sherry? Did you ever pick what beach you went to?

Sherri Cavise: No...

Thomas Greene: Did you ever take any excursions to New York City while you were here? Because I know that back in the World War II days a lot of those veterans did do that. I don’t know if it was the same for you?

Paul Cavise: No, because we were here in like ‘73-‘74 so they had invented you know, cars (laughs). You know, I mean, no, we didn’t have excursions or anything like that. Yeah we would just go on our own. Yeah, no.

Thomas Greene: Okay. Did you know of any of the servants and obviously there were women who worked here while you were here?

Paul Cavise: Sure. This is kind of like a political question. You know, again, it was ‘73-‘74, it’s different than in the earlier days. Did we have any women in our unit?

Bill Fabian: No.

Paul Cavise: No GIs in our unit? No? So, there was no women in the unit which is unusual. I guess it was still too early for that. That’s interesting. No women yet in the unit. Of course there would be today within the unit. We didn’t have any clerks or anything, Bill in the unit? No? Wow, not one woman in the unit. That’s really funny. No, there was no women. You know, we had minorities, you know, what do you mean...?

Sherri Cavise: You know what they used to have for recreation, they used to have the ...

Paul Cavise: Yeah, but that was for the wives and stuff. Right. They used to have a whole lot of functions for the wives and things like that. You know, the officer’s wives. The enlisted men’s wives. Right. But no military women. No, and there was no servants per say because the regular Army didn’t have servants, you know. Regular Army was completely self-sustaining.

Thomas Greene: Okay.

Paul Cavise: We didn’t have any servants. We had soldiers who did the servant’s work.

Mark Fabian: Well, servants are a really stupid idea.

Paul Cavise: Right. Right. In the real Army you don’t have servants. I mean in some of the other places they do but...

Mark Fabian: The Army is one man.

Paul Cavise: Right. Every man has his job.

Mark Fabian: An Army of one.

Paul Cavise: Good. Thank you.

Thomas Greene: Would you say that this was a fun or a boring place to be at?

Paul Cavise: A lot of fun, right?

Sherri Cavise: If you like the beach.

Paul Cavise: Yeah, it was a lot of fun because it was close to New York. It was beach, right? We got donuts. (Laughs).

Bill Fabian: What more could you ask for?

Paul Cavise: What more could you ask for? Right. Sub sandwich. Bill took me for hard rolls.

Sherri Cavise: Also, the higher up officers we got friendly with and they were all very hospitable, nice people.

Paul Cavise: Absolutely. Because it was like a little family out here. You know, all the officers and stuff especially, because they still have that distinction between enlisted men and officers, and all the officers stuck together very close. It was like a little community out here. We had our own little community. Yeah.

Thomas Greene: Do you have any stories about anything particularly funny that happened while you were here?

Paul Cavise: Bill does I bet.

Bill Fabian: No I don’t.

Paul Cavise: Yeah you do.

Bill Fabian: No, not really. There wasn’t anything terribly exciting.

Paul Cavise: Well, the funniest thing that I can remember is like in 1974 they announced they were closing the fort down, the missile site down. Right, we knew they were closing it down, spring of ‘74. And Bill and I were two of the last people to leave here and the General made us like repaint all the buildings.

Bill Fabian: That’s true.

Paul Cavise: I mean, was that funny or what? He made us come in and rebuild and repair all the buildings and repaint all the buildings and make the place like totally spic and span. And like the place was being closed down and all the folks were leaving within a week or two. You know, like we didn’t get that. That was really funny. So, whoever was left had to do all that work. Painting rocks. We were painting rocks. Really. Literally. I mean, we were doing everything. Right?

Sherri Cavise: And then they were throwing away all the furniture.

Paul Cavise: Oh, and then they were throwing away all the furniture. All the beautiful, beautiful furniture. They took it out and they took bulldozers, remember, off the end of the Hook, at the end of Sandy Hook. And they took all the beautiful furniture and everything and they took it and broke it. You know all this Bill, right? You were part of it, right?

Bill Fabian: No, I wasn’t part of it:

Paul Cavise: God, they took all the furniture. They took it all out to the end of Sandy Hook and they bulldozed it. All the mahogany furniture that was really turn of the century, really good stuff. That’s a good point Sherry. That’s the funniest thing is how they closed the place down. I mean, they brought the helicopters in to take the nuclear warheads out. That was the last thing that I remember specifically that made any sense.

Bill Fabian: They dropped one in New York Harbor.

Paul Cavise: They dropped one?

Bill Fabian: Uh huh.

Paul Cavise: There was funny stuff like that everyday. Everyday that you were here there was funny stuff.

Bill Fabian: The guy was from Fort Tilden.

Paul Cavise: Mostly people screwing up, you know, that’s where you got your laughs from is from people screwing up. And everyday there was some screw up or stupid thing the government was doing like destroying all that furniture. Right? And all those supplies. I guess it was cheaper for them to destroy it then to figure out how to use it. I don’t know. That’s crazy.

Thomas Greene: Did you make a lot of long lasting friendships from your experiences here? Well, this one obviously.

Paul Cavise: Obviously this one. Yeah. Because we met, first met when we met here but we do have some ...like...

Sherri Cavise: Right. Our first commanding officer here, he and his wife moved out and they moved back to Texas. Then he retired from the Army and in a place I happen to go to in the summer in upstate New York I happened to bump into her after not seeing her for thirty years. So, we knew each other and we saw it through and we reacquainted ourselves and hung out together.

Paul Cavise: So after thirty years it felt like you saw her yesterday?

Sherri Cavise: It felt like this was one of your best friends.

Paul Cavise: Yeah, because we look back upon this time as a really good time and one of your best friends even though you hadn’t spent much time together. So, yeah. Those kind of friendships were made all the time.

Thomas Greene: If you had to look back at everything you went through at Fort Hancock, what sticks out in your mind the most would you say?

Bill Fabian: Making a great friendship with Paul Cavise.

Paul Cavise: Yeah, and Bill Fabian. Right. I don’t know. I’m sure it’s the military stuff. I mean, there’s all that friendship stuff and social stuff and all that living stuff, but in terms of the military stuff: bringing the missiles up. That was the best part, when we brought the missiles up out of the ground.

Mark Fabian: How about the red alert when he was getting the donuts?

Paul Cavise: Right. Well, that’s the excitement in your mind, but in my mind it’s bringing the missiles out of the ground. That’s the most exciting part of the whole thing. What’s the most exciting thing for you?

Bill Fabian: I don’t know probably the donuts. (Laughter).

Fabian’s wife: How did they notify you that that action was not going to happen and the missiles were not going to be shot? What happened that day that told you that the action was off and that the problem had been solved and you weren’t going to be going to war or anything like that.

Paul Cavise: Well, we had headquarters. We had headquarters in NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) in Wyoming, and we had headquarters all throughout the whole world. And it came down to island headquarters, so it came down through the headquarters, and we had red phones on radios, red phones and everything all the time that were constantly on. And everybody was communicating. We were hearing all those communications all of the time. Plus we had lights in the van. Red, green, yellow lights and they would go on and off and tell you the status. I mean there’s all kinds of stuff to tell us what the status is.

Fabian’s wife: So, it was a verbal command that you received?

Paul Cavise: Well no I...

Bill Fabian: Well, it was a verbal command in code. That told you what to do.

Paul Cavise: Yeah, everything was encoded. Everything was encrypted. So,...

Mark Fabian: You mean like morse code?

Paul Cavise: Yeah.

Bill Fabian: They’d say it safely delta zoo Charlie foxtrot....

Paul Cavise: Yeah, they’d go over the phone and they’d say delta zoo charlie foxtrot and you had to translate that in your code book. And I had access because I was crypto secret. Were you crypto secret?

Bill Fabian: Yeah. I answered the phone.

Paul Cavise: Yeah, so if you were crypto secret you could look in this code book which only crypto secret people could look at and you could decipher the code and the code would say red alert they’d say go down to yellow or whatever. They’d tell you that way. The codes of the radio. And then when we had our exercises we would always have the simulator on, and that was my job as the fire control officer to have simulator on and make sure that the fire button’s not really enabled so I didn’t really fire a missile off. So, we would go through the whole exerciser to fir the missile and everything except we would go the simulator and it would cut short of igniting the missile. You know what I’m saying? And then when we went to red alert we brought the missiles up for real. We didn’t have the simulators on. It was on for real and so there was only one thing stopping the missile from going off, and that was me not pushing the fire button. I know. Could you believe it? Because I could have pushed the fire button and launched the missile and that’s why the fir control officer has to have sanity checks and stuff like that.

Mark Fabian: Isn’t there something that could abort it or is that only on battleships?

Paul Cavise: Well, no these were passivley launched. These missiles were passive missiles. That is to say that we had to send instructions to it at all times in terms of where to go. So, we had one radar tracking the target and one radar tracking the missile and then it goes to our computer and tells the missile where to meet the target. So, it’s not like it was heat seeking or any of that stuff. I t was not like it was a smart bomb or anything like that.

Mark Fabian: I meant a secondary missile hits that one...

Paul Cavise: No. What I’m trying to say is that we could always the missile to go someplace else or we could always tell the missile to blow itself up. See, because we were always in communication with the missile.

Mark Fabian: Geez Louise.

Paul Cavise: We were always in communication with the missile. It’s not like a smart bomb like you have in Iraq. You know what I mean? It’s on its own.

Thomas Greene: Okay. And this one’s off the cuff. Because you wanted some off the cuff questions.

Paul Cavise: Extemporaneous.

Thomas Greene: Extemporaneous.

Paul Cavise: Better than off the cuff.

Thomas Greene: Alright it might be my last question unless you have other stuff to add, but do you think that schools today should institute a class or maybe a section in the history class to teach about the history of Fort Hancock and what went on here?

Paul Cavise: Well, I mean, that’s a pretty broad question. I mean, not necessarily Fort Hancock, but they should definitely teach the history of the Cold War and how ludicrous it was to make people stay here and eat donuts all night long because some bomber might bomb New York in 1973. That’s what they should teach. How much money the government wastes on things like this and how they don’t have missiles systems in place on September 11th of 2001. You know what I mean? I mean, the irony of it. You now what I mean? So, if our missiles were in place on September 11, 2001 that plane would have never gotten near the World Trade Center. But our missiles are gone now. So, I guess what you teach is not just about Fort Hancock. You teach generally about military, its role in society, you know, and how it has functioned within the society and integrated itself within the society. Fort Hancock was a good example of integrating into the society. If you go to Fort Worth, Texas you don’t have that. It’s an island unto itself that has nothing to do with the surrounding society whereas Fort Hancock you’re part of the civilian community here. You know what I mean? So, it’s integrated completely within the civilian community so you know, there’s that kinds of stuff you can teach. So, you can teach Fort Hancock as an example of how the military complex worked throughout history, you know, and this is an example of one way. That’s all. You know, nobody cares about Fort Hancock in it of itself.

Fabian’s wife: Local public schools would care.

Paul Cavise: Oh well, local schools I don’t know that would be a disservice because you know, when you go to college, I don’t care if it’s Monmouth University, you’ve got to learn the broad picture. You can’t just learn about Fort Hancock because that wouldn’t be fair.

Fabian’s wife: Not necessarily a university, but wouldn’t it be great if they someday turn this complex into a beautiful historical museum?

Paul Cavise: Right. Right. Right.

Fabian’s wife: Where local kids would come and really learn an awful lot about the military...

Paul Cavise: Right. Right. Right.

Fabian’s wife: throughout all of our history.

Paul Cavise: Well I gained fame when I was here. I gained fame when I was here because I used to take school children from elementary school son tours and bring the missiles out. Yeah, yeah. There was whole groups I would take when I was stationed here. I would have school children come as groups and they would come and watch the missiles go up and down and stuff. And I would take them through the “I’ve seen everything.” Oh yeah. We did that all the time. So, I think it’s very important for the military to be part of the local community. You know, if you haven’t noticed my politics already, and that’s where Fort Hancock was very good because they made it part of the local community. You know, it wasn’t something separate and distinctive unto itself. And I think if you’re more integrated with the civilian community you have more consciousness with regard to the role the military plays in society, you know, rather than just being something that it does whenever it does and what it wants to do. I mean, more civilian control and more civilian influence is better in the military, not worse.

Thomas Greene: Okay.

Paul Cavise: And I think that’s what Fort Hancock was a good example of. Good question. Good extemporaneous question. Good question.

Thomas Greene: Unless you have anything else to add that concludes the interview and I want to thank both of you gentlemen for taking the time out to do this. I learned a lot definitely and it was probably the most enjoyable one I’ve had. The most humorous one, I’ll tell you that. (Laughter).

Paul Cavise: Good luck in school. Good luck in school.

Thomas Greene: Thank you very much.
END OF INTERVIEW