Article

Oral History Interview with Henry Lawson Pt. 1

Henry Lawson
Henry Lawson

NPS Image

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH HENRY LAWSON
JULY 16, 2001
INTERVIEWED BY OLOYE ADEYEMON
The transcript below corresponds to the media embedded on this page

BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

EDITORIAL NOTICE

The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. Due to the sensitive nature of the interview, it may contain inflammatory language that some find offensive. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition.

ABSTRACT

Henry Lawson was born on August 31, 1929, in the St. Paul area of Clarendon County, South Carolina to parents Edisto and Eliza Walters Lawson. He attended school in Summerton, graduating from Scott’s Branch High School in 1946. In 1951, he married Faye Smith Lawson. A civil rights leader and community activist, Lawson was also a former member of the Summerton City Council. A lifelong member of Liberty Hill AME church, he passed away on August 31, 2014. He wife, Faye, passed away in 2020. Both are buried in Summerton.

This interview presents the history of an African American politician and civil rights activist in Summerton, South Carolina. Lawson discusses most aspects of his life in Summerton during the 1940s and 1950s to present day (2001) and talks about both the Levi Pearson v. County Board of Education and Briggs v. Elliott court cases. He discusses the politics of segregation in Summerton, including the White Citizens’ Council and the local NAACP chapter.

Persons mentioned: Reverdy Wells, Emory Rogers, Reverend Joseph DeLaine, Thurgood Marshall, Matthew Perry, Ferdinand Pearson, George House, Levi Pearson, J.S. Flutie Boyd, Lawrence Rivers, B.O. Butler, Senator John C. Land, and Senator Jim Clyburn.

  • Oral History Interview with Henry Lawson Pt 1


    This interview presents the history of an African American politician and civil rights activist in Summerton, South Carolina. Lawson discusses most aspects of his life in Summerton during the 1940s and 1950s to present day (2001) and talks about both the Levi Pearson v. County Board of Education and Briggs v. Elliott court cases. He discusses the politics of segregation in Summerton, including the White Citizens’ Council and the local NAACP chapter.

    Credit / Author:
    NPS
    Date created:
    07/16/2001
    Audio Transcript
Download a copy here (.doc 243KB)

Oral History Interview with Henry Lawson Pt. 1

[Start of SC15a.mp3]

Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v. Board oral history collection. Briggs v. Elliott interviews. Interviewee, Mr. Henry Lawson. Interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon from the National Park Service. This interview—this interview was conducted on July 16, 2001 [crosstalk 00:31] in the, uh, chambers of the Town Hall of Summerton, South Carolina. These interviews are made possible through the Brown v. Board Oral History Research Project from the summer of 2001 by the National Park Service as part of a Brown v. Board Education National Historic Site Oral History Project. Mr. Lawson, what is your full name?

Henry Lawson: Excuse me. Henry Lawson.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your birthdate?

Henry Lawson: [Unintelligible 01:02] 31st, '29.

Oloye Adeyemon: And your birthplace?

Henry Lawson: Uh, Clarendon County. The Saint Paul community.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And what is your occupation?

Henry Lawson: Um, for the last 30-odd years I have been self-employed.

Oloye Adeyemon: In what business?

Henry Lawson: Uh, I've had—I've operated a laundromat, a-a service station, and a large towing services. Um, that kind of thing.

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you currently own, uh, and operate a business?

Henry Lawson: Yes, we do.

Oloye Adeyemon: And which—what business is that?

Henry Lawson: Lawson's BP Service Center.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And you do car repair there as well.

Henry Lawson: That's correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: You told me.

Henry Lawson: That's correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Uh, you—are—are there, uh, many, um, places that do the kind of, uh, work that you do here in Summerton?

Henry Lawson: Uh, not anymore. Uh, we are full service, uh, mechanical garage shop. And most people now, uh, in that kind of business, they do, like, more like gas and go.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So you're the only one left that's doin' this in town now? Within the city limits?

Henry Lawson: Uh, well, there is another person that came here recently, and he does mechanical work, but does not have tow trucks and—as we do.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh, do you also hold political office?

Henry Lawson: Yes, I do.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what office?

Henry Lawson: I'm presently a member of the town council in the town of Summerton.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How long have you been [unintelligible 02:40]?

Henry Lawson: I'm in my fourth year.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. And your involvement in politics, did it begin with your election to the, uh, town hall council?

Henry Lawson: No, sir. I have been involved in the political arena that's in the Sum—in the Summerton area in Clarendon County, uh, for more than 30-odd years.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. You, uh, indicated you were born here?

Henry Lawson: That's correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: Were your parents also from this area?

Henry Lawson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: What—what are their names?

Henry Lawson: Uh, my father's—they're both deceased, but my father's name was Edisto, E-D-I-S-T-O, Lawson. My mother's name was Eliza Walters before [unintelligible 03:29].

Oloye Adeyemon: Do you have brothers and sisters?

Henry Lawson: Mm-hmm. I have one sister left.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

Henry Lawson: It was seven of us total. Uh, one child died at birth.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was their names?

Henry Lawson: Uh, the oldest, Lula—you want maiden names?

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, her maiden name would have been Lawson?

Henry Lawson: Yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Henry Lawson: Uh, she—she was the oldest. And the second oldest was Lena Lawson. Uh, then Ida Lawson, and then David Lawson, Solomon Lawson. And the one that was deceased, uh, between me and Solomon, well, her name was Elizabeth, but I never knew her.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: She died before I was born. And of course I'm the 7th child, and I'm—my name's Henry Lawson.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. So you were the last one to enter school.

Henry Lawson: That's correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: What year did you start school in?

Henry Lawson: Uh, I—we graduated in 1946, so I started at five. Uh, '29. Possibly 30—'35, '34. I'm not exactly sure.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. So you have strong roots in the community here.

Henry Lawson: I have.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And when you, um, started school in the Saint Paul area, what school was that that you started in?

Henry Lawson: Well, by the time when I became school age, we had left the Saint Paul community and moved closer to the town of Summerton, so the only school that I've ever gone through is the Summerton—in the—in the Summerton area close to Scott's Branch School.

Oloye Adeyemon: Hm. Scott's Branch. Okay. Lemme understand here. You start at another school?

Henry Lawson: No. Uh, well, I did. Uh, the first school, uh, when I started in first grade, uh, it was—well, I was [unintelligible 05:36] Scott's Branch School, but I don't remember the name of 'em because I was too small.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Henry Lawson: Uh, it was located, uh, closer to the town of Summerton near the St. Mark Church.

Oloye Adeyemon: Was it also close to [unintelligible 05:47] Scott's Branch?

Henry Lawson: It did. And, of course, in my second year that school burned.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Around Christmastime, when we went out for the Christmas holidays. Um, so as a results of the school burning, we didn't—we had no school to go to for the rest of that year, so I never really completed my second year, my second grade, of course. Uh, and durin' the course from—from the, um, Christmas holidays 'til the time the school was to start the next year around. Um, the Scott's Branch—the new Scott's Branch at that time was constructed. So I returned to school in the third grade in that school. And of course I continued at that school until graduation.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And during those years, um, the entire time that you were in school, the schools were segregated?

Henry Lawson: That's—that's correct.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did you at that time, uh, think about or realize that the education that you were getting as a black child was different than that the white children?

Henry Lawson: Uh, yes. I was [unintelligible 07:01] because, um, durin' those years, uh, um, we went to schools, in particular, um-um, the elementary and partial high school, uh, the black kids only went to school just about seven—roughly seven months outta the year.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, we started last, and we always, um, end up first.

Oloye Adeyemon: Why?

Henry Lawson: Well, in—in those times, uh, this was the agricultural era, and of course the—most of the blacks of that time, uh, lived on plantations. And a few had their own farms, but most of 'em lived on plantations and of course did the—and that was a way of life, workin' in the fields. Um, and of course whenever the-the field work started and [unintelligible 07:55] cotton started to be chopped, those kind of things, uh, the schools usually stopped so we can gather or work in the fields—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: In order to maintain a livelihood for us. But that was the way of life durin' those times then. So even the—the—even the seven months that we went to school, um, the schools at that time, they wasn't maintained by the state, uh, in terms of, um, uh, certification, that kinda thing.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, we never really knew when it's—when school would start because, uh, whenever, uh, we left for the summer, um, there's no starting date as to when you go back. It kinda happened in a way that it got started when the crops kinda got outta the fields. When the crops kinda get down where, uh, they could be hemmed, with everything, and hemming was done manually in those days.

There was no machinery. So whenever the harvesting got done to the satisfaction of them, they would—the church is always where you kinda got your information from in those days. And, um, maybe the pastor, someone, like, would announce it. "Well, school gonna start next month."

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Um, and that kinda thing.

Oloye Adeyemon: There was also a close relationship early on between the churches and the schools.

Henry Lawson: There were. I'm a member of Liberty Hill AME Church, and we had a school on our site—

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Henry Lawson: - uh, that went to about sixth grade, I believe.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was it called?

Henry Lawson: Liberty Hill School.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: It was on our property. Of course, it was kind of run by the church.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. When was Liberty Hill Church founded?

Henry Lawson: Uh, I'm not sure [unintelligible 09:49]. Yeah. Uh, I'm not sure, but I'm—it's in the 1800s, but I can't really give the exact date.

Oloye Adeyemon: And for much of that time there was a school connected to the church?

Henry Lawson: Ever since I can remember, since I have been alive and well. Um—

Oloye Adeyemon: When did that church school close and was replaced by another school?

Henry Lawson: It closed down, uh, after, uh, the court decision. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: 1954?

Henry Lawson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Henry Lawson: And, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now had it been enlarged from a one-school—a one-room schoolhouse, or was it still a one-room schoolhouse at that time?

Henry Lawson: Practically-practically, two rooms maybe, kinda large rooms. Maybe a third one. But, uh, all of class—all—most of the classes kinda sit in one setting.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, I never attended it, but my—my nephews did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And, uh, four or five [unintelligible 10:47].

Oloye Adeyemon: Right.

Henry Lawson: But it housed everybody in about two rooms. Such a [unintelligible 10:54].

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Henry Lawson: Had about three teachers at that time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Now you were actually, uh, an adult when the, um, cases that led to Briggs started appearing, when the people started—Pearson and those activities. Uh, were you involved? Do you remember those things?

Henry Lawson: Uh, somewhat. Uh, when the, uh, the first meeting was—was held in this community and then when the [unintelligible 11:27] meetings, [unintelligible 11:30] that's been kinda, uh, being held in people's homes, that kinda thing.

Oloye Adeyemon: What was it held for? You said it wasn't held for integration necessarily.

Henry Lawson: Well, uh, it was the class of 1949. I was 20 years old. I was born in '29. Uh, the president of that class, uh, uh, they had some concerns about the situation with the schools and—and some of the principals. And—and of course durin' those days, uh, people kind of do—did what they wanted to do. You just wanted to have support of a white constituency. Uh, they didn't necessarily have to be so qualified, but they had to do what they were told somewhat. And—and the kids—and this class would kinda [unintelligible 12:15] class. And the reverend's mother was a schoolteacher. His grandmother was a—

Oloye Adeyemon: What was his last name?

Henry Lawson: Reverdy Wells.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. How do you spell his first name?

Henry Lawson: Uh, I'm not sure. A reverend there, though.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh. And his—his mother was a schoolteacher.

Henry Lawson: His mother was a schoolteacher. He was—

Oloye Adeyemon: He was a student there?

Henry Lawson: And he was a student. But his mother was not teaching there, but his grandmother was.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: So the grandmother was a schoolteacher, by the name of Josie Reagan.

Oloye Adeyemon: And his mother?

Henry Lawson: His—his mother was named—back—baptized Wells. But—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay. And she was teaching somewhere else, but they were both teachers in the school?

Henry Lawson: She was teaching [crosstalk 12:49], but they were both teachin' that area at the time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. Okay.

Henry Lawson: And, uh, he—his brother and I were classmates. His brother was first, and he was pretty smart, too, because they had a—a kinda little advantage because their parents were teachers and all, and they—the—and [unintelligible 13:05] accessible to things that, I mean, we couldn't have gotten in terms of our parents. Most of 'em, uh, had low education, maybe the—the third, fourth, fifth grade maybe.

And Reverdy called that meeting that night, and—and I saw him on the road. I was walkin' to town. I live about a mile and a half from Summerton. And he, uh, when I got by his home, he told me he was havin' a meetin' at St. Mark Church. And he called it a mock faculty meetin'. I didn't know exactly what he meant. And—and then he said, "Well, it's going to all the parents and teachers and all 'cause we got something that we need to discuss and let our parents know what's goin' on in school." And we met them, and I had the [crosstalk 13:50].

Oloye Adeyemon: So you were just a few—few years older than him yourself.

Henry Lawson: Uh, [unintelligible 13:53]?

Oloye Adeyemon: At that time, yes.

Henry Lawson: Oh, yeah. I—I—I was, like, 20. And he just came outta school in '49, so he's probably, like, 17. And, um—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. He was a senior at the time?

Henry Lawson: Yeah, he—well [unintelligible 14:04], and he graduated that year.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And that was after graduation.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh, this is after graduation.

Henry Lawson: That was after graduatin' when they—when they—when they called the meeting because every time he went to the principal, uh, uh, to talk about the situation that had been goin' on in the school. And they had—the principal had threatened their transcripts—their—their—their transcripts. If they didn't go out there [unintelligible 14:24] botherin' him, these kinda things, all that stuff.

Oloye Adeyemon: He wasn't gonna give 'em their transcript.

Henry Lawson: That's what he told 'em.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And so they kinda left it alone 'til they graduated.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Gave—he made 'em—bought books that they never used, those kind of things [unintelligible 16:35].

Oloye Adeyemon: Why did they raise these issues after graduation instead of while they were still students there?

Henry Lawson: Well, they felt that their graduation would be in jeopardy.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. And—and ended up their diplomas were in jeopardy. Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, that exactly. That's what—that's what he felt. Uh, but immediately after, uh, you know, a—a week or so.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: [Unintelligible 14:54]. That—and that was the first part. [Background noise 14:56] meeting for months.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 14:58].

Henry Lawson: [Unintelligible 14:58], uh, of that caliber.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, and Rev. DeLaine was there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was the meeting held at?

Henry Lawson: At St. Mark Church, down the road. Right down the street there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, and St. Mark had always been accessible to us because, uh, we didn't have too many meetin' places, but they always opened old St. Mark for us.

Oloye Adeyemon: Who was the pastor there at the time?

Henry Lawson: I believe his name was, uh, Reverend Fred 15:24. Yeah, I think. You know, but we've been [unintelligible 15:30] in the evenin' about seven, 7:00. And roughly between 35 and 40 people in attendance at that meeting.

Oloye Adeyemon: And this would have been in 19—

Henry Lawson: 1949. And I still—

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, right after graduation.

Henry Lawson: Right after graduation. And so it happened somewhere around May.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Um, maybe early June. And, uh, and after, Reverdy was—he was the president of the class, so he presided over the meeting, and—and he told the people there some of the things that went on. And [unintelligible 16:02]. They were treatin' him in so many ways, and so many things happened. And from that meeting, uh, uh, after all those thing were discussed, and people got so concerned, and they felt the need to—to organize in some way.

So we were gettin' an organization goin' so somethin' like that could never happen again. We'll have [unintelligible 16:25] in counties kinda thing. And—and about the middle of the meeting, uh, after we decided to organize, and—and when they called for the motion, and Mr. Robert Georgia, uh, he chose Reverend DeLaine. He was a preacher at the time. And—and he was well-liked and a well-rounded fellow.

And he got up, and he spoke, and he said that he appreciated the confidence that—that has been restored—that—that's been restored in him, but the only way that he would accept such a challenge that if we decided we were gonna go all the way. Uh, he—so he said, "Even if it means goin' to the Supreme Court."

Um, back in those days the only thing I know about the Supreme Court's what I read in the—in my history book. And I don't know—you know, I mean, I didn't know exact—I know what it meant. But I didn't know—but I didn't know—like, I know most of the people up there now by name. I didn't know who they were. I know what—I know the—how they [unintelligible 17:31].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, and so everybody applauded the [unintelligible 17:38]. Then we, uh, we said, "That's what we need to do. That's what we wanna do."

Female Voice: [Unintelligible 17:44].

Oloye Adeyemon: How many people would you say were in attendance at everything in that night at St. Mark's Church?

Henry Lawson: Uh, roughly 35 or 40.

Oloye Adeyemon: And this was in the evening.

Henry Lawson: It's evenin'. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Was it during the week?

Henry Lawson: Durin' the week. Uh, it coulda been a Friday night.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: It wasn't a week—it coulda been a Friday, but I'm [unintelligible 18:03].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And, uh, everybody that was at that meeting, we signed an attendance sheet to it, you know, and addresses and all. And we did. And along with me and everybody there. I signed it as well. But I [unintelligible 18:18] attendance sheets [unintelligible 18:19]. And from that meeting after, uh, uh, Reverend DeLaine was [unintelligible 18:29]. And as I told you, I think there had been some things kinda goin' on in the background even before that meeting was, but they were not publicized.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, because—

Oloye Adeyemon: This meeting was publicized.

Henry Lawson: It was publicized.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Were—were the whites in the community aware of the meeting's occurrence?

Henry Lawson: Well, they may not have known, but they knew somethin' afterwards about the meeting. You know, I don't know whether they know beforehand, but they know the next day.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What happened the next day?

Henry Lawson: Nothing from that meeting. Um, but then after Reverend DeLaine—after Reverend—Reverend DeLaine was chosen, then of course that's when he start calling other meetings. Um, several of them. You—you know that sayin' which [unintelligible 19:11] church and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Was there any fear on the part of the people meeting?

Henry Lawson: No. Uh, they were—they—they were not fearful at all. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Were there reprisals?

Henry Lawson: Somewhat, yeah. But, um, when that—like I said, when that just got started, everybody thought it wasn't goin' anywhere.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: For the most part. And then—and then after the—the organization really got to rollin' and—and got other things in motion and meetings started [unintelligible 19:43] all over the place and [unintelligible 19:44] was signed every time we go to a meeting, that's when it really got a little bit more harassable with—with the whites.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What were some of the ways they harassed you?

Henry Lawson: Well, uh, uh, they made threats. Uh, like, um, we ain't [unintelligible 20:01], but they were bringin' Ku Klux Klans in and Democrat Nation. You know, not—they wouldn't really publicize that, but you—you'd hear those things. Um, and—and of course shortly after that, um, after Reverend DeLaine got so vocal and start doin' a lotta things, um, of course you know the story. [Unintelligible 20:23] had to leave town [unintelligible 20:26].

Oloye Adeyemon: Had to leave town. Were there people who were finding it difficult to get credit?

Henry Lawson: Oh, yes. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: And was people being put outta their homes who lived on rented land?

Henry Lawson: Well, it didn't start right then. In other words, the—when the—when we got organized, uh, NAACP wasn't even in this area at the time. Uh, when things got to roll, that's when they organized the Clarendon chapter NAACP. Then the first president we had, his name was Flutie Boyd. Um, [unintelligible 20:57]. And when NAACP [unintelligible 21:02] to another town, they hired one of the lawyers that—that lived in this town. His name was Emory Rogers. [Unintelligible 21:10]. And he represented the white citizens, and the NAACP represented the black people in this town. Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was his name again?

Henry Lawson: Emory Rogers.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And, uh, and for—

Oloye Adeyemon: Did the whites give a—give a name to their organization at that time?

Henry Lawson: Uh, later. Uh, later, uh, when—uh, after we got—after they get rollin', uh, then they form what you call a White Citizen Council.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Was Rogers still the head of that?

Henry Lawson: Yeah, at that time. And, uh, every business that was involved, they had a placard that they'd put on their door. The White Citizen [unintelligible 21:55]? I don't even remember. I remember White Citizen Council.

Oloye Adeyemon: So it was something that the white businesses were a participant in.

Henry Lawson: That's right. So that's a retaliation from the NAACP [unintelligible 22:07] organize.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And through [unintelligible 22:09] with their, uh, legal—legal spokesperson.

Oloye Adeyemon: Spokesperson. Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, and then that's when the heat came on after that. And, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: What year was that?

Henry Lawson: Uh, that was about, like, '50 then. And, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Has the—has the suit been filed in full district court in Charleston by now?

Henry Lawson: Well, if it had been, I—I really didn't know about that 'til a lot of—a lot of things after the—the, uh, after—after we get to rollin' and really get to rollin' and after they start bringin' in big guns, and sometimes some things that happened that I may not know about, but there—there never has been a meeting held in this town that I knew of that I was not in attendance, but—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. There mighta been meetings that were held by NAACP's officials.

Henry Lawson: That's right. [Crosstalk 22:55].

Oloye Adeyemon: Or, uh, some of the other leaders such as DeLaine that you might not have been at.

Henry Lawson: That I—I might not would have been there. But, uh, but if it been a public meeting, I've always gone because my parents, um, hm, their education's kinda limited. And since they [unintelligible 23:09] to provide me with a high school education—a little bit more. I've—I've done one years of college. And they kinda put me out to do the leg work and do certain things, to represent them in a way. They always would be there, but if anything has to be signed or if anybody has to be a spokesman, they kinda depend on me to do that, but they will always be in attendance as well.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did you have any relatives, any petitioners in Briggs, uh, v, Elliott [crosstalk 23:35]?

Henry Lawson: Uh, not close relatives. Uh, but, uh, uh, again, uh, how that happened, uh, that was another meeting. And there were a, you know, uh, in any—in any place you live, you know, uh, people that has a little bit more input, little bit more influential, I would say. Uh, see, my—my family are, like, sharecroppers, so, uh, I've been able to—to break through the cycle because I've been able to get a little bit of education at the time. And a lot of things that at 20 or 21 I might would not have been invited to 'cause I hadn't had the [unintelligible 24:20], I would have been there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Like when they signed—when the petitions was gotten together and then to sign that petition, to bring it first [unintelligible 24:28]. Um, it was by 9—I think it was 19 of those people. I'm not sure. But they could have gotten 100 because people—people was fired up and ready to go [unintelligible 24:39]. And they—and they didn't fare—they—they—they didn't have any [unintelligible 24:43]. But they didn't need that many. The—or they didn't think they would get that many people in one setting to do that at the time.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Um, but the Briggs, um, well, that's [unintelligible 24:54]. Kinda, like, alphabetical order. They—they need for one person to sign, so Harold Briggs, he decided to sign. But all those people was just as responsible as he was. And—or it's just that they didn't have to sign their name. And it's good, what went—what went—whatever went on in those times.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And of course you know the—you know the story with the, uh, we had two black merchants in this town that my father-in-law, he had run some kind of business all his life. Matter of fact, it still exist, the Bay shop down the road. That was—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 25:25] kinda shop is it?

Henry Lawson: They call it—they—they call it the Bay shop, but that's the name of it. That's his sons.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Henry Lawson: But, uh, he had a little, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Spell that.

Henry Lawson: Uh, B-A-Y.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. B-A-Y. Yeah, yeah.

Henry Lawson: Yes. Uh, but it—it started out as Smith, Smith Grill. And he had a place up on—on the street there right up [unintelligible 25:43] one time. Ever since I can remember, he was [crosstalk 25:47]. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: You said it was located where?

Henry Lawson: Right on Railroad Avenue here.

Oloye Adeyemon: Railroad Avenue was a strip that had a lotta black businesses, right?

Henry Lawson: That's, uh, that's the only place where the black—black businesses were. Uh, and, uh, some people gave it the name Nigger Street.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.

Henry Lawson: But it's really Railroad Avenue.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Uh, blacks weren't really welcome in the main business street.

Henry Lawson: Other than to shop.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh.

Henry Lawson: You know, all the grocery stores were [crosstalk 26:12].

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. The restaurants and things like that. The restaurant—the black restaurants and [crosstalk 26:16] was on Railroad.

Henry Lawson: No, you couldn't. No, no, you could not. You could—you could not establish any kind of business [unintelligible 26:20].

Oloye Adeyemon: Or—or for when you're gonna sit down and eat. You [crosstalk 26:23].

Henry Lawson: No, no, no [crosstalk 26:24]. Uh, I recall, uh, this, uh, uh, Stokes Drugstore used to be in town. This—this, you know, and this was in '52 when this happened. Um, mm, that's where Emory Rogers and his secretary, they—they had a little booth in the corner, and you can go and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. That was the person with the White Citizens Council.

Henry Lawson: He was the one. He was the lawyer for them.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And I went in that drugstore in there, and I asked for a milkshake. And that was in '52. And they said, "We don't sell no milkshake here." I said, "I thought you did." Said, "We don't sell milkshakes here." And, uh, and I went back out and got a white friend of mine [unintelligible 26:59] been workin' for me at the time. I said, "James, I thought that they sold milkshakes in the stores." He said, "They do." I said, "I just been there. They said they don't sell 'em." He said, "Give me your money." And I went back, and he went back and—and came back with a milkshake.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: When that was a little—that was eatin' cone in there. So you can go in and get your cone, cone of ice cream, and go sit down and read somethin' there. Or when you get somethin' like a milkshake or sandwich, this was [background noise 27:24].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And that was in [unintelligible 27:26], too, when that happened.

Oloye Adeyemon: So the—they—

Henry Lawson: All the [unintelligible 27:33]. The—

Oloye Adeyemon: The Bay business was owned by your uncle?

Henry Lawson: But that was owned by his father.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What was his name?

Henry Lawson: And his—his—his name was Robert Smith.

Oloye Adeyemon: That was your great-uncle or your grandfather?

Henry Lawson: No. That was my—that's my wife's—that's my father-in-law.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay, your father-in-law.

Henry Lawson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: And what did he sell?

Henry Lawson: Well, he had what you call a—um, well, I guess you'd call it a club. They sold food, and they had a jukebox.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And that kind of business.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And he established it on the Railroad Avenue. And then—

Oloye Adeyemon: And it still stands today.

Henry Lawson: Well, no. I'm—I'm not sure it's still over there now. Um, that—the buildin', I think, is torn down because he reestablished a—a bigger place later, uh, right around the corner there by that Young's Market.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And, um, course that—and, uh, that was a lot bigger than the first thing he had. And then I think it was in 1950, I believe it was, uh, that's when he built the—the Bay Shop. That's how it got the name Bay Shop. After he passed away—he died in, uh, '56, I believe it was. Uh, his son Abraham, but everybody called him Bay.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.

Henry Lawson: So then it got the name Bay Shop, so now [unintelligible 28:44] in the name they got a [unintelligible 28:45] Bay Shop. But that was—that was—that was founded by his father.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Interesting. So these years when these meetings are occurring, uh, by and large, the people did not have a lotta education. They were sharecroppin'. There mighta been a few that were in business, a few that were teachers, a few that were preachers. And was it the case that a lot of the leadership decisions were made by those havin' a little more education at that time?

Henry Lawson: Well, that's partly true. It's, uh, uh, even people then, uh, with a sixth-grade education, most of them did well.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Like my father-in-law I'm talkin' right now. He didn't even have a sixth-grade education, but it wasn't then—I—I use the old word mother wit.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: I know people, you know, people with good common sense sometimes do a lot better than someone with a lotta education.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: In most case back then. And it wasn't their fault, the reason they were not educated, because we only had two high schools in this area, the Saint Paul High School down here and the Scott's Branch High School.

Oloye Adeyemon: Those were the only two blacks schools here.

Henry Lawson: Those are the only two.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And the reason that I've been able to continue my education through high school because I was in walkin' distance.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: See, all these little—like the Liberty Hill School, and that wasn't too far, but we had schools all in the canyon, like [unintelligible 30:12] and, uh, Springbrook Remonade and Briggs Chapel.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Or—and—and—and—and—and then transportation in those days was mule and wagon for the most part. Very few people owned a car that they probably used, like, on—on Sunday to go to church. And most of 'em, they didn't—they didn't have a mule and wagon, so when the—the, uh, the elementary schools, when they graduated from that, uh, it wasn't really most of the people's fault. They just didn't have no way to go to the high school. They couldn't walk five, six, seven miles for that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. [Crosstalk 30:45] the bus transportation was provided to the white children that live in [crosstalk 30:47]. Okay.

Henry Lawson: Uh, uh, uh, yeah. I never rode a bus in my life.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm..

Henry Lawson: Uh, the bus used to come right by my door.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And, uh, and—

Oloye Adeyemon: Wait, before?

Henry Lawson: No, it wasn't before because the blacks have always outnumbered the whites in this area. Uh, the—the former white school over here was called Solomon High School at the time. Uh, that population has never probably been over about 400 people. In this general area of the county, uh, blacks have always outnumbered whites, uh, more than two-thirds—through more than two-thirds. So that's the reason that, uh, the black folks had to, um, uh, work in the field, because there was no other means of livelihood other than agriculture.

And the one or two jobs that were available, uh, they—that—that can be gotten that the women or—or men could do, the whites had those jobs, and we were farmers. And the—and—and our ladies that work in the kitchens and, uh, and—and raise their children and those kindsa things. So the jobs that were around here, um, one or two over here, white people got 'em, so we had to do what we had to do.

Uh, that was, uh, in—in those days in this area with all the black people that lived here. If you saw a white person out in the field, particular a white lady, out there choppin' cotton—you—everybody'll talk about that for a month. "You saw Miss So-and-so out there?" You didn't see that in this area. Now you go up in the north end of the county up around Turbeville and all, where the whites outnumber, uh, the blacks, they have to [unintelligible 32:24] work in the field. Uh, that never happened around here.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: There was one white guy that used to work in the fields, and his daddy owned a tractor.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And he drove a tractor. And the black people rode the—the mules and the other things and picked the cotton, so they never had to do that here. We've always been outnumbered in terms of population.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I understand. So these, um, things that were goin' on with the meetings and—and the court case was really kinda like a revolution for this area.

Henry Lawson: Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: It's somethin' that—that was different for blacks but also different for whites. It was somethin' that they were probably very surprised by. Is that true?

Henry Lawson: They were—they were more surprised because at first I would say they thought that it wasn't goin' anywhere. And but when—when that, uh, when Thurgood Marshall got on board, and course we had [unintelligible 33:23] when we first got started in [unintelligible 33:25].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: But he wrote the NAACP. He said, "I know the NAACP lawyer [crosstalk 33:29]."

Oloye Adeyemon: Would he come down here?

Henry Lawson: Oh, he come—oh, yeah. He lived in London [unintelligible 33:32] on some of the rest of 'em. Uh, and Thurgood—and, uh, Matthew Perry. Now he was a dynamic lawyer, so he—he was so good they [unintelligible 33:41] make him a judge.

Oloye Adeyemon: He became a federal judge.

Henry Lawson: Yeah, he did [crosstalk 33:44].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. What year was that?

Henry Lawson: Uh, I [unintelligible 33:47] [laughter] [unintelligible 33:49].

Oloye Adeyemon: Recently. That was more recent, though.

Henry Lawson: Yeah. It's been more recent 'cause he—he about one of the better lawyers we had ever around until Thurgood came on board. And—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Did you meet Thurgood Marshall?

Henry Lawson: Oh, yes.

Oloye Adeyemon: He would come to some of those meetings [crosstalk 34:00].

Henry Lawson: Yeah. Well, he—Liberty Hill Church he's been at several times.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: That's how it got the name of the historical liberty Hill because all the meetings held there [unintelligible 34:08] and people like him.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: So been there. But when—when the—when Thurgood—I mean, it took this [unintelligible 34:16].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Emory Rogers said he was not gonna have any parts of this thing.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And after he resigned, and he, oh, he left. He—he run like a rabbit in terms of—

Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 34:27]. He—but who was—he was the first president.

Henry Lawson: He was—he was—he was—no. He was the lawyer that represented the white constituent.

Oloye Adeyemon: Wait, a minute. Lemme back up. The White Citizens Council had Emory—

Henry Lawson: Had Emory Rogers.

Oloye Adeyemon: And—and when the court case went to trial—

Henry Lawson: When they—when they—when he—when he saw it gonna get—see, they thought it was [unintelligible 34:41] a little penny ante thing.

Oloye Adeyemon: Oh. I got you now.

Henry Lawson: But after—and after growin' all that steam.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And Thurgood Marshall came down. And then there—when they went to Charleston the first time around.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And she—he resigned, you know, heartbeat.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And they was in Heaven while [unintelligible 34:58].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm.

Henry Lawson: That's when that's goin' on. But, uh, they [unintelligible 35:03] the lawyer, but he didn't—wasn't nothin' comin' up against this guy.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: It's, um, it's been said that he said he'd never seen a fellow that smart before.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm. That's what he said.

Henry Lawson: Yeah. That's what he said [unintelligible 35:13]. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Laughter] So he had heard—he had heard about his reputation [crosstalk 35:17].

Henry Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oloye Adeyemon: So 'cause he had been defendin' other cases prior to this case, race case.

Henry Lawson: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes he did.

Oloye Adeyemon: So, you know, in this community, one big thing that happened was the student—the PTA meetin's, the students and—and that and then the Briggs, um, complaint bein' filed and the trial.

Henry Lawson: Yeah. Well, actually, what—what brought the whole case into play was that meeting that night.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: And you would mark that as a turnin' point.

Henry Lawson: I would—I would mark that to—as a turning point of the integration that started here.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: 'Cause had we not had that meeting, unless there would have been another meeting, that's how—that was when it—but that meeting did exist.

Oloye Adeyemon: That particular issue was the rallying point.

Henry Lawson: And that was—and—and—and Reverdy, he lives now. He lives in New Jersey. I have his address, and—and, um, but through all of those—through all of those—

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Reverdy?

Henry Lawson: Reverdy Wells. He lives in New Jersey. [Unintelligible 36:19].

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, and the last time I talked with him, he come up, we talked. And his name has never been mentioned in nothin'.

Oloye Adeyemon: Well, it needs to be mentioned.

Henry Lawson: You know, and, uh, well, uh, um, uh, um, uh, and—and if it was not for that—for that class of '49 and the—and then—and with—and—and his leadership, there might not have been an integration, you know, started in this town. I said might not have been because there was nothing else. Now what—what Levi Pearson was doin', uh, when I was in high school, probably 1945. That when they bought that old bus.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, the—the—

Oloye Adeyemon: The Pearsons.

Henry Lawson: Yeah. And—and, uh, and, uh, the little, uh, loaner reverend came. Reverend came. The [unintelligible 37:05] funeral around then. And he—

Oloye Adeyemon: Where was he? What church?

Henry Lawson: He preached down in that area.

Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Uh, uh—

Henry Lawson: Down around Briggs, you know, around the Briggs Chapel down that area. He—he never preach at [crosstalk 37:14].

Oloye Adeyemon: Was that Davis Station at [crosstalk 37:15]?

Henry Lawson: Mm-hmm. Davis Station exactly where he preachin'.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Where's his funeral home?

Henry Lawson: Right down the street, just King Funeral Home.

Oloye Adeyemon: It still exists?

Henry Lawson: Yeah, it still exists.

Oloye Adeyemon: He—he's no longer in [crosstalk 37:23].

Henry Lawson: No. He—no. He—well, he—he had two sons, and both of 'em died. Now his—his last son's wife—this can't [unintelligible 37:30]. But I didn't know the Pearsons that well durin' those days because as transportation was, and from here to the Davis Station, that's like tryin' to get to Summerton.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: You know, we don't have vehicles [unintelligible 37:42] and that kinda thing.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: But I know the Pearsons later. Now Ferdinand Pearson and I are really good friends now. We've been political buddies now for the last 30-odd years.

Oloye Adeyemon: [Unintelligible 37:50].

Henry Lawson: Uh, but, uh, when—when they was doin' those things down there with the reverend, uh, uh, assisted by, uh, Reverend—Reverend King and all, and when they bought an old school bus, and the first fellow that drove it was [unintelligible 38:03]. His name was George House. And [crosstalk 38:06]—

Oloye Adeyemon: What was his last name?

Henry Lawson: George House.

Oloye Adeyemon: House?

Henry Lawson: House. H-O-U-S-E. Yes, House. He was the first one that drove the old bus, and several times out the week, though, the bus would break down before they would get to the schoolhouse. [Unintelligible 38:18] old bus. And, uh, but that—

Oloye Adeyemon: And that was the result of them, uh, actually filin' a—a suit asking for a bus, and when they didn't get the bus, for gas. And then they had to just resort to their own means. Is that—

Henry Lawson: Well, that—they—they asked for the bus later.

Oloye Adeyemon: Okay.

Henry Lawson: See, uh, uh, uh, uh, um, Levi Pearson. Those people out there, they were the first ones to—to—to file a suit.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Uh, but when it came up, it somehow or another they—they declared they were out the—out the—outta the district.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: They were in another district or whatever.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And, uh, so that suit didn't go nowhere.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: But they had already, uh, [unintelligible 38:59] before these things or whatever.

Oloye Adeyemon: Did they have a bus already, or they got the bus kind of—

Henry Lawson: They got the bus kinda after that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: So as a result of them havin' a bus, that's why kids were [unintelligible 39:08] been able to come to school and more of them been able to graduate.

Oloye Adeyemon: Just in that particular area of [crosstalk 39:14]. Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: [Crosstalk 39:14]. Yeah, down in [unintelligible 39:15].

Oloye Adeyemon: They were [crosstalk 39:17].

Henry Lawson: Yeah. And, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: Now, you know, you've—you—you've mentioned Reverdy. Uh, I understand that he, uh, suffered some consequences because of his actions. Is that right?

Henry Lawson: For Reverdy?

Oloye Adeyemon: Reverdy, uh, Wells.

Henry Lawson: Reverdy. Oh, Reverdy Wells?

Oloye Adeyemon: He suffered some consequences [crosstalk 39:34].

Henry Lawson: Yeah. Uh, he, uh, uh, those things I found out later. Um, he got some bad grades or somethin'. He was goin' to—see, uh, he—he wanted to go to college.

Oloye Adeyemon: Uh-huh.

Henry Lawson: And he never got there.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Based on the—the, uh, the transcripts that [crosstalk 39:49].

Oloye Adeyemon: Now he was actually a very good student.

Henry Lawson: Oh, he was good.

Oloye Adeyemon: He was the valedictorian of his class.

Henry Lawson: He—he was. He was.

Oloye Adeyemon: Right? So he was straight-A student.

Henry Lawson: He was.

Oloye Adeyemon: But when they sent his transcript to the college that he was going to, what did the grades in that transcript show?

Henry Lawson: That's right. I don't know what they were, but they were too low, and he could not—and, uh, he never—so he never—he never [crosstalk 40:03].

Oloye Adeyemon: So they sent a false transcript.

Henry Lawson: That's what they did.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: They did.

Oloye Adeyemon: What happened as a result of that? Did he—

Henry Lawson: Uh, he went to Philadelphia. Um, and that's where he—well, Philadelphia. He lived in Philadelphia—Philadelphia. He went to Philadelphia, and, he, um, was employed up there.

Oloye Adeyemon: But he wasn't in a—able to finish his education because he couldn't get—

Henry Lawson: No. He never could. But as—as a results of him with that meeting.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: And, uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: So his, uh, you know, he paid a high price, but he really wasn't remembered anywhere [crosstalk 40:29].

Henry Lawson: No. By nobody.

Oloye Adeyemon: By nobody. And that was just because, uh, people didn't—didn't—it wasn't that people that were talking about it or—or passin' the story down didn't know about that meetin', or they just didn't realize how important he was?

Henry Lawson: Well, nobody really think that the meetin' woulda been that fruitful.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: It's just me. I just always wanted to be involved, and I've always been involved. And the people—

Oloye Adeyemon: But I'm sayin' later when people were writing about it.

Henry Lawson: But, well, I don't know. They—uh—

Oloye Adeyemon: How did they miss?

Henry Lawson: I'm not sure. Uh, just like when they, uh, uh, did the movie.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm.

Henry Lawson: Separate Equals Down. Uh, that thing was just all never—no parts of, uh, the way it really happened. Course that was a movie. I do understand, but the more fiction than anything else. But Reverdy, I don't know. Uh, I don't know why he is, but it always bothered me because the fact that he, uh, has not been never, never mentioned in any kinda documents or anything to my knowledge of that.

Oloye Adeyemon: Would you be willing to talk to him to see if he'd be willing to be interviewed for this?

Henry Lawson: He would certainly do that. I—I got his address somewhere [unintelligible 41:34] I can get it. He lives, uh, matter of fact, he married a girl from Denmark, but he lives—he come [unintelligible 41:41]. But I'll—I'll try to get—I'll get your address, and I'll try to be in touch with him and let you talk to him.

Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I'd like to break here in the first half of the interview and pick it up with the second half. Um, but this has, um, been very helpful, especially since, um, you're old enough and were involved in the [background noise 41:59] to give us a kind of a firsthand account of what this thing was [unintelligible 42:03]. Thank you.

[End of SC15a.mp3]

Last updated: July 19, 2024