Larry Stewart Oral History Interview

Larry Stewart

Family

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH LARRY E. STEWART

AUGUST 29, 1989
INDEPENDENCE, MISSOURI

INTERVIEWED BY ANDREW DUNAR
ORAL HISTORY #1989-11
This transcript corresponds to audiotapes DAV-AR #3616-3617

HARRY S TRUMAN NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

EDITORIAL NOTICE

This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for Harry S Truman National Historic Site. After a draft of this transcript was made, the park provided a copy to the interviewee and requested that he or she return the transcript with any corrections or modifications that he or she wished to be included in the final transcript. The interviewer, or in some cases another qualified staff member, also reviewed the draft and compared it to the tape recordings. The corrections and other changes suggested by the interviewee and interviewer have been incorporated into this final transcript. The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition. The transcript includes bracketed notices at the end of one tape and the beginning of the next so that, if desired, the reader can find a section of tape more easily by using this transcript.

Andrew Dunar and Jim Williams reviewed the draft of this transcript. Their corrections were incorporated into this final transcript by Perky Beisel in summer 2000. A grant from Eastern National Park and Monument Association funded the transcription and final editing of this interview.

RESTRICTION

Researchers may read, quote from, cite, and photocopy this transcript without permission for purposes of research only. Publication is prohibited, however, without permission from the Superintendent, Harry S Truman National Historic Site.

ABSTRACT

Larry Stewart, member of the Secret Service’s Truman detail, describes the procedures and persons utilized to protect the Trumans. The majority of Stewart’s information explains the period from 1977-1981 when he served Bess W. Truman. Stewart describes Jimmy Carter’s visit, differences between the Truman and other ex-presidential details, and agents attitudes toward serving on the Truman detail.

Persons mentioned: Robert E. Lockwood, Harry S Truman, Paul Burns, Joe Inman, Bess W. Truman, Scott Jones, Don Snyder, Larry Goddard, Byron Smith, Albert McCorkle, Donald Argetsinger, Mike Westwood, Valeria LaMere, Margaret Truman Daniel, Lady Bird Johnson, Mamie Eisenhower, Bob Saunders, Edward Hobby, Wallace H. Graham, Elmore Leonard, Donald Schneider, Kenny Baker, Jimmy Carter, Rosalyn Carter, Mary Jo Colley, Velma Simmons, Mary Sullivan, May Wallace, Doris Miller, Petey Childers, Polly Compton, Joe Calpin, Howard Jordan, Art Minklein, Vernon Cox, Ron Birdsong, Glenn Gibeson, Henry Talge, and Winston Churchill

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH LARRY STEWART

HSTR INTERVIEW #1989-11

ANDREW DUNAR: . . . couple of things that we have. I’m not sure when this was prepared. Maybe you could even give us an idea of when this might have been. It has the names of the people that were active at the time, whenever it was. It was some years earlier, I’m sure.
LARRY STEWART: Okay, Robert Lockwood, Special Agent in Charge, right, okay. He spent considerable time there. Matter of fact, he spent two tours there, Bob did.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: He was there when Mr. Truman was alive and then he went away, I think it was to Austin, Texas, and then Paul Burns, who proceeded him . . . Yes, and I remember Joe Inman.
DUNAR: You start from there and we’re going to start the tape.
STEWART: Okay. Now, I don’t know where Joe Inman is now. But, anyway, Bob Lockwood did two tours there, once with Mr. Truman and Mrs. Truman, and he went away to Austin. Then Paul Burns came in after him, and then Paul Burns made a trade with Lockwood. So Paul went to Austin and Bob came back to Truman, so there was a switch there. Both Paul Burns and Lockwood are now retired. Inman, I remember him. When they say Senior Special Agent, what they are, they’re the man under the Special Agent in Charge, is what they are.
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DUNAR: Oh, I see, okay. So he was maybe when Bob Lockwood was . . . ?
STEWART: Inman was there when Lockwood was there, at one of his tours. We changed . . . This gentleman I don’t remember. I remember his face, but I don’t remember his name or remember much about him. I don’t know where he is now. [chuckling] Scott, yes, Scott Jones. Scott Jones was up at Truman and he went from there to Dallas, Texas. I was in Dallas, Texas when Scotty came.
DUNAR: Oh?
STEWART: Scotty is now down in Austin, I believe. He’s an individual that just served as Special Agent there for quite a period of time. But he’s down in Austin.
MICHAEL SHAVER: He dropped by and visited us once. He’s the only other agent who left his business card besides you. [chuckling]
STEWART: Yes, Scotty is a very . . . I guess you found out he likes to talk a lot?
SHAVER: I got the impression.
STEWART: Yes, Scotty likes to talk. You know, he’s always talking, and a very nervous type of person. Don Snyder is now high in the organization. See, at this time, he was just a Special Agent. Now he’s about a GS-15, which is a supervisor. And the last I know, he is a director or an SAIC, Special Agent in Charge, of our . . . not intelligence, but what’s the . . . oh, gosh, inspection.
DUNAR: Oh, yes, okay.
STEWART: Yes, okay. He’s the SAIC of Inspection. He has recently got a promotion and a transfer to be the Special Agent In Charge of the St. Louis field office, so he’ll be out there. But he was a Special Agent at the time and has come up
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in the organization. I don’t know this gentleman, don’t even know his name. These are . . . yes, entered in 1971, a lot of fellows that came in when I was not here. I’ve seen this man, but don’t know him. Williams, don’t know him that well. Goddard, Larry Goddard. [chuckling] Okay, Larry Goddard is a Special Agent. He also left here and went to Washington, D. C., and went into the Training Division. Other opportunities came along that he felt were more lucrative than the Secret Service, and now he’s in charge of security out here at the arsenal at Lake City.
DUNAR: Is that so?
STEWART: Yes, so he’s out there at Lake City, working for Marlen, I think, whoever is the company that runs it. The army controls it, but it’s under the Marlen Corporation or something like that.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: So he’s chief of security out there, Larry Goddard is. McCorkle, Special Officer. It seems to me like McCorkle lives down in Florida somewhere, you know.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: I think his wife had a series of health problems, if I remember right. He came by when we were . . . Oh, boy, this is a face from the past. Smitty, we called him, Brian Smith. Brian was there when I came. Brian was one of the Special Officers that was just a good ol’ boy. I don’t know if you’ve ever been in the military, but he reminds you of the navy chief, the guy on the destroyer that ran the destroyer. The man has died. He died of cancer,
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actually, what it was, lung cancer. It started out with a circulatory problem, and I was there, unfortunately, and watched the man deteriorate and then die. But the man was like a chief petty officer on a destroyer.
DUNAR: Yes, [unintelligible].
STEWART: I liked him, he was well-liked, but very militaristic, did his job well. And Argetsinger, he passed away of a heart attack in a motel room while on temporary assignment out in California. He died just . . . Well, I got my assignment at Truman . . . I’m trying to think of the years—they go by so fast—I believe it was 1979 when I got my transfer to Truman, and Argetsinger died before I got there, about a month or two. So I didn’t know much about Mr. Argetsinger, other than seeing him. Joe Lewvin, also a Special Officer, I believe he’s still alive but I don’t know exactly where. I think I’ve met him one time when I was out there. And that’s it, okay.
DUNAR: Yes, so this book probably dates from the mid-seventies then if [unintelligible].
STEWART: Oh, yes, prior to the mid-seventies. Yes, the mid-seventies on, because most of these people were there. See, I came in 1969. At the time, I was assigned to the Kansas City field office. My first temporary assignment was at the Truman residence for thirty days. At this time, Mr. Truman was alive and doing his walks and whatever. I remember it was a great thrill to me, because being a brand-new agent and the first exposure to any type of president . . . But they would send me over here, seeing as I was so close, on thirty-day assignments. Like I say, Lockwood wasn’t here, and most of us were . . .
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Well, Paul Burns was here at the time, so we’re talking about the early . . . early 1969 to 1970.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: But the other fellows, the Special Agents, they were in the mid-seventies. Okay, Argetsinger and Burns and Smitty and those guys, they were in the seventies, most of them. Prior to that, it was so fuzzy.
You know, being a new agent, I was awed with the whole thing. All I remember was coming over here and working a lot of midnights because I was a new agent, so I didn’t see much of the president or Mrs. Truman, or even much of the regular shift agents, because we were working the midnight shifts. I was fortunate enough to have some daytime exposure, like on Sundays or something like that, to be out and be around when the president was going out and taking his walks. So I did get to meet him once on one of those occasions.
DUNAR: Did you accompany him on one of the walks?
STEWART: Yes. Yes, I did accompany him on one of his walks. I can remember it well, even though it’s been over twenty years ago. We came out the front gate and turned left and went down to the next street. I don’t know, is that Walnut Street? I believe it is, isn’t it? From Truman . . . ?
DUNAR: Is it Maple?
STEWART: Maple?
SHAVER: It’s Maple.
STEWART: Yes, we turned left on Maple and went about, oh, maybe a block or so, and
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he decided he needed to go back to the house, because he was getting quite old, elderly at that time.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: And it was at that time that Paul Burns had stopped him and brought me over and introduced me to him. I give a lot of speeches to groups, you know, student groups, other than instructional type, where you go and talk about counterfeiting or something like that, [to] police groups. But they always like to know about this. And I can honestly say, I think my biggest thrill of my whole career was that of meeting Harry Truman, you know. Because there’s not very many people that can go around and say that they had met Harry Truman.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: You know, in our age group and everything.
DUNAR: Sure.
STEWART: And these young kids, of course, they look at me and say, “Gosh, is he that old?” [laughter] If you think about it, well, Mr. Truman was quite old at that time, you know.
DUNAR: Right, yes.
STEWART: But I’d say, in my lifetime, that was one of my great . . . or my career, of meeting and being with presidents, was the fact that I did meet Mr. Truman on one of his walks. And I’ve got, of course, an autographed picture by him, which is very treasured or cherished by me because of that fact.
DUNAR: Sure.
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STEWART: Because he is one of our . . . you know, a deceased president, and he was one of our greatest presidents and everything. And as I say, well, yes, I did meet him, so . . . Even at a young age, it does seem pretty impossible.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: Because many presidents came in between Mr. Truman and the time I became an agent. I came in during the later part of the Nixon years.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: So that was one of my most memorable experiences anyway.
DUNAR: Now, when he took his walks, at that time, I guess, was he taking only very short walks because [unintelligible]?
STEWART: Very short walks because of his health, yes.
DUNAR: Yes, but he did continue to take walks though?
STEWART: Oh, yes, up until the time that I guess you’d say he went to the hospital or the time of his death. He did take walks, yes.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: Either that or they would get in the car and take rides, him and Mrs. Truman. You know, he got to the point where he couldn’t drive, so . . . I don’t remember the police officer’s name, I know it’s been brought up to you though.
DUNAR: Mike Westwood?
STEWART: Mike Westwood was his driver until his death.
DUNAR: Yes, yes. Would the Secret Service agents ever take him on rides? Or was that only Mike Westwood that did it?
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STEWART: I think it was only Mike Westwood, and this was because of the president’s desire, you know.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: It’s one of those things that . . . You still work for these people, they’re still boss. No matter even if they’re former presidents or they are the president, they’re still the boss, and you take direction from them what they want to do.
DUNAR: True, true.
STEWART: You’re there to protect them and make their life comfortable for them. You know, it created a sterile environment, but if they say they want to go somewhere, they can still go somewhere.
DUNAR: Sure, sure.
STEWART: They’re still the boss.
DUNAR: Yes. I know earlier there was some question of whether the Trumans would even allow the Secret Service to come. What was the nature of the relationship between the Trumans and the Secret Service at that earliest time of your contact with them?
STEWART: Oh, I don’t know. I can’t honestly answer that, to be quite . . . you know, to say that this is a fact or not.
DUNAR: Right, right.
STEWART: But Mr. Truman was one that had a reputation of making up his own mind and he didn’t like people telling him what to do. I remember when I went out there, I know it was sort of like a . . . you treaded around very softly and very quietly. It’s one of those things, you can be there but not be seen. And a lot
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of times you find that this is the attitude of the president or the missus, is that they want you there but they feel like that you need to be like a bush or a tree and blend in with the woodwork. They don’t want you to stand out and what have you. And this is basically the way he was, I think. Well, they were telling me stories when I came there about him driving himself to the library and back. Even though he had Secret Service protection, he still wanted to drive himself. So that showed more or less his independence, and he didn’t want somebody telling him what to do or doing things for him, until he got to the age where he just couldn’t do it anymore.
DUNAR: Right. Would he alert the Secret Service when he was going somewhere? Or would you just have to see that he was out and headed somewhere?
STEWART: See he was out and headed somewhere. He was one of those type. We’ve had several presidents that were like that. To name one, was [Lyndon Baines] Johnson, which had a terrific reputation for just wanting to actually get away from you.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: He was one that liked to hide from the Secret Service or go do his thing and not have the Secret Service along. But I don’t think Mr. Truman was, in the sense that he deliberately did that.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: It was just him. He wanted to do . . . He wanted to get out and go when he wanted go, and he didn’t feel it necessary that he had to tell someone. And, I guess, after you become an ex-president, you don’t feel impelled to do that,
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like you were when you were president.
DUNAR: Sure. That’s true, yes.
STEWART: Tell your secretary, “Well, schedule me a walk,” or something of this sort.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: But afterward, you know, in your former years, you just do what you want to do and you don’t feel like you have to tell somebody when you’re going to go for a walk or go down and have a cup of coffee with the boys or anything like that.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: So I don’t think he did it deliberately. I think it was just one of those things that . . . “I don’t have to tell Bessie I’m going to go, or anything of this sort, you know. I’m just going to go do it.”
DUNAR: Sure, sure.
STEWART: “After all, I was President of the United States, you know.” [chuckling]
DUNAR: When you were there, and you said you were mostly on the midnight shift, was that in the house across the street?
STEWART: No, at that time . . . Now, we’re talking about when I . . . over twenty years.
DUNAR: Okay, that’s before they had the house.
STEWART: Yes, this is before. See, I did two . . . did my temporary assignments there and then I came back as a regular shift agent or . . . No, I was a senior agent under Lockwood, is what I was. I had reached my quote, unquote, junior supervisory level; and you had your SAIC, which was Lockwood, and then these other fellows I pointed out. Well, when I came back, I had obtained the
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ranking of the Senior Special Agent, which was an assistant to Mr. Lockwood.
DUNAR: Okay, okay. And during the first period then . . .
STEWART: I was just a junior agent, yes.
DUNAR: Was there still that shack out in back of the house, or what?
STEWART: No, we sat in a car.
DUNAR: Oh, okay.
STEWART: When I first went there, we operated out of a room. Well, actually, it was a storage room or where they catalogued books over at the library. That was our command post. All of our radio gear, all of our monitoring, television monitoring gear, was in the library section. I’m sure they could point out the room.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: Like I say, I could probably walk to it, but it’s been over twenty-five years and it’s probably changed over there and everything.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: But we did operate out of there and that’s where the whole operation worked out of. I mean, the day shifts, the afternoon shifts and the midnight shifts was out of the library. And at night, after dark hours, we sat in our Secret Service vehicle in the driveway at the garage. We had plugs in for the telephones, and also had outlets so during the winter we could run a space heater into our cars to keep warm. That’s how we kept warm, was to run a space heater in there. But that’s how we operated when we first came here.
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DUNAR: So you’d have an agent down at the library and one in the car then?
STEWART: In the car, yes. That was, you might say, a mobile command post.
DUNAR: Right, right.
STEWART: Or our observation post, in the sense that you sat in the car. Outside of having a guard shack, it was really better security, I felt, than later on in a number of years, after we got the house across the street, because you actually had a man outside physically around the house. Whereas, opposed to later on, well, we’d maintain security within the house during the dark hours. But then it was just Mrs. Truman.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: And there is sort of a . . . You go on what the threat level is. If you have threats against your protectee, then you have to put in more security, as if you don’t have any threats. So you just gauge your type of security you put around your protectee as to the number of threats you get.
DUNAR: Were there any threats of a serious nature while President Truman was still alive?
STEWART: Because of the nature of his position in the years that he was president, there was always those people who remembered him and would have dislike for him.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: Because of what he did, as far as the atomic bomb is concerned and everything. And the threat level is never as great on a ex-president as it is the incumbent president.
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DUNAR: Right, right.
STEWART: But, yes, there’s always those threats against your former presidents, but not great. And those old fellows that were around that were making threats against him when he was president were still around after he wasn’t president. So you always have to be on the guard.
DUNAR: Mostly in the nature of phone call threats, you’d say?
STEWART: No, you find them in letters.
DUNAR: Oh, I see.
STEWART: More of the habitual letter writers and this sort of thing, or people who verbally express it, but they’ve expressed it all their life. You normally find also you’re dealing with a bigger percent of them that are suffering from some type of mental disorder.
DUNAR: Yes, right.
STEWART: And they get these obsessions in their head. I don’t care who the president would be, just in the sheer nature that he’s president, they’re going to threaten him.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: That’s how they deal with their frustrations.
DUNAR: I know that in late years—I don’t know if this was going on when the president was still alive—but there have been protests on the anniversary of the dropping of the atomic bomb. Was that going on at that time, too?
STEWART: I don’t really remember.
DUNAR: When those happened was that perceived as a threat or was it treated just as a
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demonstration?
STEWART: A demonstration. Not a threat but a demonstration, yes. A threat is when it’s actually made towards the man, you know.
DUNAR: Right, rather than an issue.
STEWART: Than an issue, yes. There’s a lot of demonstrations, as far as issues are concerned.
DUNAR: Were there ever demonstrations outside the house? Or were those always at the library?
STEWART: Mostly at the library, yes. All the time I was there, I never saw any or was aware of any demonstrations at the house itself.
DUNAR: Were there any threats that came to the point where you had to put your unit into action or anything to ward off a threat, at the time that the president was still alive?
STEWART: I don’t really remember that, so I can’t answer that one.
DUNAR: Now, could you describe what the setup was and what your responsibilities were when you came back the second time?
STEWART: Okay, yes. When I came back the second time, we were located in the house across the street and the setup was that it was more or less during the daylight hours a monitoring type of security. We did it by eyeball from the command post, which was a very good location—we could see the front—and the rest of it was done by the television and the ground alarms. Mrs. Truman was, obviously, the only one there at the time.
DUNAR: We have a picture that shows the inside of the command post.
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STEWART: [chuckling] Yes.
DUNAR: Could you maybe just comment on what the setup was here?
STEWART: Okay. Yes, what they did, the house allowed us observation of the front—and, I guess, that was the north side of the house—from where we were sitting. And the alleyway, we could see people going down the alleyway that led back to the garage. They had television monitors which . . . we had television cameras located around the grounds, at the back of the grounds, down the alleyway. I don’t know if you were aware of the television that sat up on top of that church there that monitored the alley.
SHAVER: Yes, at least I know of three. There was on the church, there was one at the garage and I think there was one maybe in the attic or the loft, where your office is.
STEWART: Yes, okay. Yes, we had it set up so that we could see down the alley. We could see anybody that would enter, after you got around the garage, enter into the driveway. And we had one that faced out towards the gate on Truman that never is opened. It’s the vehicular gate that you . . .
SHAVER: Oh, so you had one in the garage [unintelligible].
STEWART: Yes, looking the other way. You’re right.
SHAVER: I didn’t know that.
STEWART: Yes, there were three. Looking out towards Truman Road, one looking at the alley where you would come in, and then one looking down the driveway. So that would be . . .
SHAVER: Do you remember where the one that went out to Truman Road, where it
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was mounted?
STEWART: Yes, it was right there at the edge of the garage.
DUNAR: So there were two mounted on the garage?
STEWART: Oh, oh, oh! Yes.
DUNAR: Okay.
STEWART: Yes, it was located in the garage itself, looking out a peephole. Okay?
SHAVER: Yes, okay. There’s a lot of holes in the garage [unintelligible]. [laughter]
STEWART: Yes, now that you mention it, because I remember it was very necessary that we had . . . That was a night camera, by the way, so that it would . . .
DUNAR: Infrared, or . . . ?
STEWART: Well, the best that we had at the time. It would illuminate that area, because it was very important that the light over the garage would always be maintained, that it was always on, so that it would give us enough light to see with that night camera. Okay? So the light out there was very important. [chuckling] We all crawled up there many times to replace that light.
SHAVER: And you did have one across the street in your office?
STEWART: Periodically.
SHAVER: Periodically?
STEWART: Periodically. We determined, well, it wasn’t necessary because the agents should be looking out the window anyway, and all that camera was doing was looking at the same thing the agent was looking at. And we were maintaining, watching that front gate, which we controlled by a button that would electronically open the gate or close it, you know. In addition to that,
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we had electric eyes around, that if anything would go through it would break the alarm. So that it would alert us that somebody went through it, if the camera missed it while something else was moving out there. And that’s what this panel is here. That’s those electric eye panels. Also door alarms. All of the doors were alarmed and we had fire alarms in the house itself, smoke detectors. They were constantly going off because of the cooking. [chuckling]
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: Yes, I know you’ve probably heard that story.
SHAVER: We put a new system in and it still does the same thing.
STEWART: Yes. Oh, we had terrible trouble because of the deterioration of the house, especially in the attic area, where, obviously, we needed the fire alarms because of all the stuff they had piled up there. And the ceiling would fall down and break the wires, and so we had terrible trouble with that. And then we had a lot of trouble with their cooking setting off the alarms.
DUNAR: What is the incident you’re referring to?
STEWART: Well, Mrs. . . . I want to call her La Mar.
SHAVER: LaMere?
STEWART: LaMere, yes.
DUNAR: Valeria LaMere.
STEWART: Valeria was always setting them off by her cooking in there. And anytime the kitchen alarm went off you had to respond.
DUNAR: Right.
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STEWART: But most generally you’d say, “Well, LaMere is cooking again.” Sure enough, you’d get over there and she’d be cooking and it would set the fire alarms off. But we did have a great problem with that. But the setup is that that’s the way it was arranged. As I said, we had the box over here.
DUNAR: On the left side.
STEWART: On the left side. It got more sophisticated than what you’re showing here as time went on, because they added more stuff in there and everything. But I remember two or three boxes setting up here and two or three televisions. But that was the basic setup. You had your area for your door alarms, your ground alarms, fire alarms and then your television monitors for the televisions that were setting around. Of course, the radio system.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: But it was a lot better than sitting down in the library because you could be over there in a matter of seconds. You know, the response time to anything that might occur . . .
DUNAR: You’re right.
STEWART: Whether she fell or an alarm went off or what have you. Of course, she had her panic alarm, you know, that she could push, or whichever nurse was taking care of her could push, in the event she fell or they needed us right away. So it made it a lot easier for response time to get there.
DUNAR: Was there a problem with that alarm being set off inadvertently?
STEWART: Oh, yes, many times. Oh, yes.
DUNAR: But you physically went over there whenever that went off? Or did you call
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over there?
STEWART: Oh, yes. Sometimes a new nurse fooling with it would think it was a cigarette lighter, would start fooling around with it and would set it off, you know, or this sort of thing. Because it did look like a cigarette lighter.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: That’s the whole idea, was to disguise it also, so that any potential troublemaker wouldn’t realize that it was not an alarm. You know, it looked like a cigarette lighter.
DUNAR: Oh, yes. Right, right.
STEWART: So they’d pick it up and start fooling around with it and it would set it off.
SHAVER: Well, Miss Kenier was always telling that she was always discovering a new security device. She was like throwing bread crumbs out the door one day and one of the agents said, “What are you doing opening and closing the door?” And she said, “How do you know?” [laughter]
STEWART: Yes, that’s true. There was times I don’t think I even knew what was alarmed over there, there were so many. And some of them that used to be there were deactivated and then new ones were put in and what have you. Because we have a specialist that was assigned to the Kansas City field office that would come over every six months and make sure that all your alarms were working and all your televisions were working and make sure that everything was set up properly. He would maintain the equipment, and then, if anything was new, he would install it. I think there at the very last we went through all these years and they decided, well, we’re going to have to
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put our locks on the doors, you know. So they went over there and, I don’t know, they put all new Secret Service locks on the doors. If you found them there when you got there or not, I mean . . .
SHAVER: [unintelligible].
STEWART: A very expensive process, but they figured, well, now it’s time that we put all new locks on the doors because we don’t know how many people have keys and what have you.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: You might answer me this question. I was always told that that fence was put up by the direction of the Secret Service. Did you discover that or not?
SHAVER: That was an item of some research, and I think we finally came to the conclusion that, yes.
STEWART: It was?
SHAVER: He was reluctant to have it put up for a long time because, one, he didn’t want it, two, he didn’t see the need for it and, three, it wasn’t his house. It was his mother-in-law’s house. But I think when they had those senate hearings or those house hearings on the San Clemente matter, they went back and researched it the best they could and determined that the Secret Service did put it up.
STEWART: Put the fence up front.
SHAVER: I think it cost like $6,000.
STEWART: Yes, because I remember while I was there we had a young man hit it, ran into it and damaged a portion of it. And I remember there was a big thing
21
that “he hit our fence.” [laughter]
DUNAR: No kidding?
STEWART: And so we had to have it replaced, you know.
DUNAR: Was that on the north side?
STEWART: Yes, the north side. Yes, I remember that incident. Matter of fact, I did have to go pay the bill, so I know we paid the bill to have the fence fixed. But that sort of startled me that, oh, that’s our fence? You know, I thought it belonged to the house.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: There were many things I learned about that house. Were you told about the broken window in front, the front door that was broken by an agent?
SHAVER: We had heard that. Do you know more about the story there?
STEWART: Well, just that it created quite a row, in the sense that Mrs. . . . Or I should say, well, I think the agent said the wind caught the door and broke out the leaded glass there in the front door.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: But it did upset Margaret quite a bit and she didn’t want us in there anymore. I shouldn’t be saying this, I guess, but whenever she came to visit, she didn’t want us in the house. She felt that she was enough. So, you know, like you say, you do have problems with security and everybody in the family involved.
DUNAR: Sure, sure.
STEWART: And even though Margaret felt that we were necessary to be there at the
22
time, whenever she came there she didn’t feel like it was necessary that we maintain our normal security procedures. At which time we’d have to alter them somewhat, in order to still maintain what we felt was proper security procedures.
DUNAR: Yes. She was key, though, in keeping the Secret Service there, I think, at one point, wasn’t she?
STEWART: Oh, yes.
DUNAR: Mrs. Truman wanted [unintelligible].
STEWART: She wanted us there, which is obvious. You know, when you get to be Mrs. Truman’s age, when I came here and everything, the idea of anybody harming her is almost unthought of. Nobody even thinks of Mrs. Truman, only when they bring her up, that it’s her birthday, you know, on the news or something like this.
DUNAR: Right
STEWART: But you have to face it, we’re very much an expensive luxury to have, in the sense that we provide . . . we go all the way. It’s not just, well, it’s nighttime, we go home and we’ll see you in the morning. Whenever we take a responsibility, it’s a twenty-four-hour responsibility and it’s done right, such as the elaborate alarm and television systems and everything else. You know, we want to make sure that if we do the job, well, nothing is going to happen. But she was very instrumental in the fact. Of course, I don’t think Mrs. Truman really felt she needed us.
DUNAR: Yes.
23
STEWART: The time I was there, she was very polite, she was very appreciative, but you could tell, well, it’s nice to have you here but I don’t really think it’s necessary. And I think she had expressed that several times. We were really a great go-between, as far as people that wanted to see her. They would always contact us first and we’d go over and tell her, well, you know, “The congressman from Illinois would like to have an audience with you.” And there were several times she said, “Well, do you think this is necessary?” You know?
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: So she was sort of using us as her staff there at the end. She was in very poor health when I went there, in the sense that you never knew when you was going to have to take her to the hospital. It was, however, that she was still going to the beauty shop and we were still going out to eat and taking little rides. And this became quite a chore for us because we were having to take her out of the wheelchair and putting her in the vehicle and all of this. And it was trying on us because of the mere fact [that] here we had the responsibility of possibly dropping her or, you know, [doing] things that nurses should be doing and everything.
DUNAR: Sure.
STEWART: There’s sort of a thing about . . . A Secret Service policy is that you don’t carry bags or packages, because you can’t protect when you’re doing this thing because you’ve got your hands occupied with something else. But we were sort of having to act like her sons.
24
[End #3616; Begin #3616B]
SHAVER: That was one I remember Mr. Lockwood talking about in his interview. He always used the phrase “non-protective duties,” non-protective situations, checking fuse boxes and things, and he was kind of delicate around that. But I didn’t get the impression that the detail here was used for non-protective duties to the excess that some other details were at other locations.
STEWART: You mean, you’re referring to [unintelligible] Johnson?
SHAVER: Well, you compare the Truman detail to the Johnson detail or to the Nixon detail.
STEWART: Okay, I was fortunate enough to be down in Dallas and dealt with Lockwood down there on their ranch. I was at Dallas five years, and Lady Bird would come up quite a bit to Dallas and we did a lot of things. But I do not really believe that they were dealing with as much as we did here.
DUNAR: [unintelligible]
STEWART: Also, when Mamie was alive. It has a lot to do with your SAIC. Somehow or another, these SAICs become very close to these old ladies.
DUNAR: The SAIC is . . . ?
STEWART: The Special Agent in Charge. That was Bob Lockwood or Paul Burns or Hardin down there on the ranch. But these guys become very close to these old ladies. They sort of start treating them like their mothers and what have you. The agents don’t really feel that way. The agents there, a lot of times they get bored, they start grumbling, you know, because of lack of movement, lack of things to do. It’s a very tough detail because sometimes
25
you might go for months and all you do is come in here and pull your eight-hour shift watching those monitors and listening to [unintelligible].
DUNAR: Right, and nothing going on, yes.
STEWART: But the non-protective duties that he was talking about, yes, there was a lot of that. I’ve changed many light bulbs, I’ve changed many fuses. I went down one cold winter night and had to take care of locating a man to come down and fix the furnace because the furnace thermocouple went out, and here it was Sunday night. Of course, it gives you a little bit of clout to call up these emergency services and tell them who you are and things start to [unintelligible]. [laughter] It was for Mrs. Truman, and so you would get pretty good service. I remember that we got it fixed that night and the guy came right over. But if you don’t have a maintenance man around or somebody from the library, why, you’ve got to do it. It’s got to be done, so the agent has to do it.
The crew that was on when I was there, they were pretty good about it, you know. Even though they weren’t as much involved as Lockwood and myself, they would get the job done. I can’t say that they ever slighted Mrs. Truman during that period.
I guess you might say one of the ones I always have to laugh about, about the non-protective duty, is that Mrs. Truman would like to have a little drink once in a while. The conversation came up about martinis one time, and there at the end, well, I became the official martini mixer because I knew how to make martinis. It put me in a position, in the sense that on one
26
occasion I went over there and she did ask me to sit down and enjoy the martini with her, and here I was on duty. But I did sit down and have a martini with Mrs. Truman on the back porch. That’s where she liked to sit and have those. But you might say that was a non-protective type of function I had to perform, which was an enjoyable one.
SHAVER: Well, I never got the impression that they ever imposed on the details like other protectees did, I mean, overtly.
STEWART: You’re right there.
SHAVER: There were things that had to be done.
STEWART: I think it might be the fact that, due to their age, they didn’t. See, they were not active people. I don’t remember when it was President Truman ceased going to Florida, you know; but the more active your protectee is, the more you might say they impose on you. Mrs. Truman treated you like a gentleman and she didn’t ask you to do things that she didn’t think were within your scope of duties. The president didn’t do that. I mean, he felt he had his gardener, he had Mike Westwood do the driving, and he had people that were in their particular areas or range of duties and that’s who he would call on. He wouldn’t say, “Well, there’s an agent, I’ll have him do it for me because he’s available.” That wasn’t the way it was.
But you talk about Lady Bird Johnson, yes, she would use agents to do anything that she wanted them to do for her. There’s various reasons for that and I don’t think I need to comment on that. Mamie was like that, from what I understand. Agents were her gardeners and, you know, would carry
27
wood in for her, go grocery shopping for her and this sort of thing, you know. Mrs. Truman, however, they would send . . .
DUNAR: [unintelligible].
STEWART: Send Valeria out to get that stuff. Now, sometimes we’d have to take her.
DUNAR: When you went out to restaurants, for example, because there seemed to be kind of an ambivalence there. On the one hand, she wanted to get out; on the other hand, she didn’t want any attention from the press or anybody.
STEWART: That’s right, definitely. No, as a matter of fact, it seemed to be embarrassing to her if somebody from Independence came up and started talking. But there again, I think in the later years she began to feel self-conscious about herself because she was losing a lot of her ability to take care of herself. Bob Lockwood and I swear, to this day, that one time while we were out at a restaurant up in Raytown she had a stroke, because all of a sudden things just went wrong, and it was after that time we no longer went out to eat. We really hated to see those times go, too, you know, because we could always count on a specific day we’d move the car up, go to the beauty shop and then go out to eat, and it just all went away. It was sort of sad. Like I say, the years I was there, were sort of the saddest years because of watching the lady deteriorate, and it seemed like it went so fast at times. But like I say, what little I knew of the president and then knowing her, I got to respect them a lot and thought they were great people. They were probably what I thought a president and his wife should be, to be honest with you.
I sat there and sort of watched the house deteriorate also in upkeep
28
and everything. As a matter of fact, she had no interest in it. Have you talked to Mr. Sanders, the guy that used to go around and paint it and paper it?
SHAVER: I talked to him briefly.
STEWART: Yes, well, Mr. Sanders was taking care of it at this time, and he’d come around and see things that had to be done and then go in and talk to her about it. Like I say, that wasn’t her interest.
DUNAR: Was it partly also financial, that she was watching the pocketbook?
STEWART: That’s what he was saying. But, you know, in my mind, I had a hard time not saying, “What do you mean, you don’t have the money?” Of course, I didn’t know how much she was getting, as far as the wife of a deceased president and what have you. But that was the story, because of the finances. But I did watch the house deteriorate, you know. Of course, we weren’t responsible for taking care of it or anything other than protecting it. You know, things that had to be done, and the only time they were done is when it was necessary and it had to be done. I guess Bob Lockwood took care of maintaining the cutting of the grass and what have you, which created a little row in the service. Because Bob was his own type of man and he didn’t care who from headquarters was there, if it was time to cut the yard, he’d get out there on his lawn mower and cut the yard. [laughter] All I could do was just sit there and shake my head and say, “Well, that’s Bob Lockwood.”
Bob was the person I think that fit very well with Mrs. Truman. His personality and Mrs. Truman went together. I think that of anybody that could have been there in charge of her detail, Bob Lockwood was the best.
29
Because of the way he was laid-back, he didn’t take anything as a serious type of threat, and, you know, he could handle it and knew exactly how to deal with the situation. Mrs. Truman liked him very much. I think Paul Burns was liked by the president very much, because they seemed to have a very good relationship, from what I saw. I did not see Lockwood and the president together, so I can’t say. But I know that Mrs. Truman really respected and trusted Bob.
DUNAR: Did you do other things around there, in addition to cutting the lawn, other things of that nature? Just when things came up?
STEWART: Well, like I say, just when things came up he’d go over and take care of it.
DUNAR: Was Reverend Hobby still working on the lawn at that point?
STEWART: Yes, yes, he sure was. He was there, oh, as far as I can remember, up until almost to her death, not on a regular basis, but he’d come periodically.
DUNAR: Would he clear things with her first or would he just do things that he knew had to be done?
STEWART: It was sort of like it was time to do it, just like a standing appointment, you know. You almost had him on the books that he’d be over here, you know, the second Tuesday of next week and take care of it as things would arise. Things became pretty routine, like clockwork, as to who was going to show up and what was going to be done, pretty much a set schedule.
DUNAR: We figured you had a list of secure people that could enter without any sort of interrogation or questions and confrontation.
STEWART: That’s right. A lot of people that were on the list, we didn’t much know they
30
were coming half the time; and you had to identify them just by physically seeing them and knowing who they were. I knew that they could go into the house and what have you. It was limited. It wasn’t as great as you would think it was, maybe four or five people only that you knew could go there. It wasn’t a big list, and people that were on the list would just come occasionally. They’d always call before they would come, and you wouldn’t have to meet them, you would just see them when they’d go in the back or come to the front gate wanting in. They were expected, so you wouldn’t have to go over and check them out or anything else. I’d say that security there at the end was pretty lax, as compared to what you would think of a more active protectee, such as Lady Bird Johnson or the Reagans or someone like Ford. Security is still pretty tight around those people, they try. That’s the big thing. Their movement around is how much security you have to provide. Our detail, you know, we were lucky. We had ten people, and we never did have it, but ten people was the ideal detail. Now, if it was the Mister you’d have to have more because you had the possibility of splitting up and going two different places.
DUNAR: Right, right. How many people did you have then at the end of her life?
STEWART: I’d say close to eight.
DUNAR: There were two on duty at all times. Is that right?
STEWART: Yes, two on duty. Now, that was during the evening and midnight shift. Then there was three on duty during the day shift for extra movement, in case she had to go somewhere or something, because you always had to
31
leave someone behind when the two others had to go. So, when she got really sick and didn’t do much movement, then they figured they could cut two more back. They were right, but it was hard to make the schedule up for the days off and everything.
DUNAR: Sure. Did you ever spend time in the house when you were on duty, in the study?
STEWART: Oh, yes, a lot of times. Of course, there at first, just more or less nothing but familiarization and finding out where everything was, in case you had . . . Well, like I say, because of the fire alarms. [laughter] Or the other intrusion alarms or what have you. You determined where they were in case you’d get a malfunction. You had to know where you were going. Yes, I did spend quite a bit of time [in the house]. I spent some midnights in there, too, like when we were short and we had to work midnights. So I’d go over there and work midnights and what have you. I’ve been down in their basement, up in their attic, in the upstairs areas, you know, where they tell me that he slept there at the end, and where she slept, and Margaret’s room and then your attic area. Then, because of her illness and her being moved downstairs, she spent her last years downstairs. You know, when I first went there, she was sleeping upstairs and that’s the time when we had to move her downstairs where she stayed until her death.
SHAVER: Were you involved in that move? We could never quite figure out who. Reverend Hobby helped move some stuff down and I think Mr. Lockwood did. Were you involved in that?
32
STEWART: No, I wasn’t involved in that move. I just know that it did take place while I was there and when they brought her downstairs to the living room and an area in that back bedroom, yes.
SHAVER: Did she resist that move?
STEWART: She normally resisted a lot, you know, things that were status quo.
DUNAR: Changing anything.
STEWART: Yes, changing anything. But, yes, I’d say she did, because it was changing the status quo, but not to a point that it would make her uncomfortable. She realized that things were being done to help her out and to make it better for her. You know, all I saw there, unfortunately, was a very unhappy, sick woman at the end. It wasn’t the happy, gay years of being in the presidency and after the presidency and everything. It was sad I had to see that part of it but it was still part of history. Whenever I think about it, you know, it was a part of history.
DUNAR: When you did have a chance to sit and talk with her, what would she talk about?
STEWART: Oh, just normally about what’s going on at the time, the weather or . . .
DUNAR: Things that were immediately around her or current events and that type of thing?
STEWART: No, she wasn’t too interested in current events. She really didn’t think much . . . [Tape Interruption] Of course, Dr. Wallace, he was close to her.
DUNAR: What was he like?
STEWART: Well, I didn’t know that much about Dr. Wallace but, to me, Dr. Wallace
33
was like a general practitioner. He had his limitations, and all he’d do was maybe take her blood pressure and listen to her heart and take her to where the specialists were. It was like a thing though that he was still in command. Even though you had all these specialists seeing her, Dr. Wallace was still in command. They reported to him and Dr. Wallace would report to the hospital and the hospital would report to the news media. Or Dr. Wallace would be the spokesman for them and, on occasion, as Mrs. Truman, you know . . .
DUNAR: What were your standing orders, in terms of if she had a serious health crisis? Would you call Dr. Graham or call the hospital or would you take her directly to Research Hospital?
STEWART: When I first went there, it was to notify Dr. Graham immediately and he would make a decision. At the end, we called, you know. We’d go in there and if the nurse said, “It’s bad,” we’d go to the hospital. As the Service take the position, we didn’t want to take the position that we were going to wait around and tell somebody to do it and then be criticized because of the fact that we delayed. “Why did you wait? Why didn’t you get her to the hospital?” So, there at the end, if we felt she needed to go to the hospital, she was on her way and then we’d call Dr. Graham and tell him that we were sending her to the hospital, and then he could make a decision after he got there to send her back home, you know. But they had a very adequate nursing staff there at the end that knew pretty much what was going on with her because they were with her all the time. They could tell when things
34
were going wrong and everything. Of course, they had their instructions, I do recall. They would let us know right away and we’d get her [unintelligible] and send her on her way to the hospital.
DUNAR: The nurses that were there at the end, the Upjohn nurses, were they responsible to Dr. Graham or to Research Hospital?
STEWART: They were responsible to Dr. Graham. Like I say, Dr. Graham tried to always maintain that he was in charge, which I can understand why. And like I say, Dr. Graham was always the spokesman. He was the one that would put out the medical bulletins on her condition and everything. But, no, I wouldn’t say that they were responsible to Upjohn or to Research Hospital; they were responsible to Dr. Graham.
SHAVER: From a security standpoint, did the nurses introduce any new anxieties or concerns on your part?
STEWART: Not at all, not at all. Because, see, before they brought them in, we sat down with the Upjohn people and they understood our responsibilities and knew exactly what we had to do. As a matter of fact, as far as Secret Service procedure, anybody that goes in and is going to be next to any protectee—now, you understand my term “protectee”—people are checked out. Anybody that comes in, we’re supplied with their date of birth, their Social Security number and anything we can find out, and then we do background checks on them to determine that they won’t be a threat to who is handling her. So Upjohn understood this, and anytime they changed nurses or sent in a new nurse, they would supply us with the information so that we could do a
35
background check on them. So things went well, as far as security and the Upjohn people were concerned. They did a good job, in the sense that they maintained the people all the way through that they started with. So we didn’t have to keep changing nurses and wonder who the new nurse was and everything, they kept the same people on.
SHAVER: Who would do the footwork on the checks? Would the detail or would you?
STEWART: The Kansas City field office.
SHAVER: They did that at the field office?
STEWART: Yes.
SHAVER: How did the field office figure in, in support of the detail?
STEWART: When the Secret Service originally . . . Now, this is hearsay in the first part, when Mr. Truman first came out of office, I understand he didn’t want the Secret Service. Okay? And it was after the incident at the library where he had something stolen, a very elaborate sword display or something, at which time he thought, “Well, I’d better have Secret Service.” So then he asked to have Secret Service put in as a detail. Kansas City field office was assigned to do this, so they sent out temporary people. I was sent out as a temporary person to help supplement the detail.
Kansas City was always a pool for the detail. In other words, when we started running short of people, well, Kansas City would send people over to supplement, if they could. If they couldn’t, then Washington would send men from other field offices, which they did a lot. But Kansas City has always had more or less a little controlling interest in the detail itself. There
36
at the end, they totally took over the detail again. Because they figured, well, the last days are coming, it’s silly to bring in another . . . That’s after Lockwood retired and prior to her death. They said it’s silly to bring in another boss, we’ll just let the boss from Kansas City be the boss and run it from Kansas City. So Kansas City has always sort of had the controlling interest in the detail.
There has always been a little feeling by the office that that’s just something we don’t need right now, because it takes our manpower to send over here when we need them to investigate counterfeit or checks or whatever. And it was sort of a drain on the Kansas City field office. They gave us the people to run it, but it wasn’t, “Well, we’re sure happy to help you out.” [laughter]
SHAVER: We all understand that [unintelligible].
STEWART: I think when Washington says, “Okay, you’re going to have it,” then that really put a strain on those poor guys over there, especially the bosses, having to juggle the manpower and everything, knowing that they were going to have to really supplement the detail.
DUNAR: Oh, so they didn’t give them an increase in manpower then, to the Kansas City office when they?
STEWART: No, no. No, they did it with what was here and what they had over there. Well, I’ll tell you, it takes two men out of their work force over there and [unintelligible] supplement, and so they alternate. Of course, that’s he way it was when I first came on, over twenty years ago, when they were sending
37
people out. I remember when I was out there on the midnight shift, it was me and another temporary from some other office. So it was always being supplemented by temporary people. You had your regular core and you had your manpower that came from the other. You could see there would be a lot of men in the Service that served at some time or another on the Truman detail, you know, on temporary assignments.
SHAVER: That is kind of funny. Once upon a time, I was reading kind of a police story written by Elmore Leonard, it was called La Brava, and this was before Mrs. Truman died, in 1980 or 1981, and this character in this book was sent to the Trumans. He was a Secret Service agent who had just worked on a real difficult counterfeiting case and they sent him to the Truman detail to cool off. It was kind of funny because he talked about the house, he talked about how there wasn’t a whole lot to do there, you could sit in the living room and look at the clock that never needed to be wound, or you could admire the pictures of the grandkids. They painted it as a place where, you know, on occasion, if they had to, they would send some folks to cool down or to get out of it, to relax, for lack of a better word. Was it ever perceived as that in the service?
STEWART: Yes.
SHAVER: Did it have this reputation?
STEWART: Yes, the Truman detail had a terrible reputation. It was one of those situations . . . Well, I called it the “Leper Colony,” okay? [laughter] I hate to say that, due to the fact that I was sent out there myself; but I was sent out
38
there for a promotion, so I didn’t feel that bad because I was promoted to assist Lockwood. But it did have that stigma, yes. It had the stigma that they were sent there because they didn’t know where else to send them. There were a lot of hyper individuals there, in the sense they’d remind you of a kid that had too much sugar, you know, or high on caffeine or something. They were very energetic. Yes, it did have a reputation of sending people there to cool them down. Or they didn’t know where else to send them and they had to do the protection, so that was a good place to send them to do their protection. And you’re right, however, there were a lot of good people there: obviously, Don Schneider who is now Special Agent in Charge of the St. Louis field office, and there were many others who came out of there in high positions in the Service. They’re big supervisors or they’re bosses or they’re heads of departments that were at Truman detail. So you can’t say it was just [unintelligible].
SHAVER: No, I didn’t get that impression, but at least for a few folks . . .
STEWART: Yes, there were a few folks out there. We got a guy that . . . Many of them got their master’s degrees while at Truman because of CMSU up here. Right up here next to the library, they had their campus university, and they’d go up there and get their master’s degree in the law enforcement field, criminal justice degrees. I know there were three while I was there, one got his law degree, one got his doctorate in education and one got his master’s. They were on my detail. Kenny Baker, who got his doctor’s degree in education, is now in Washington, D. C. in our Intelligence Department and he’s very
39
instrumental in writing our procedures, as far as the interviewing of drug cases and what have you. He’s gone quite a ways. And like I say, the kid that got his law degree, I don’t know where he’s at now, but he did get his law degree while he was there. The other kid I know that got his master’s degree, he’s up in Chicago. Of course, he’s about ready to retire from the Secret Service, too. But I know a lot of them got their master’s degree while they were here.
SHAVER: Was that something of an attraction for some of them?
STEWART: Yes, a lot of them would ask to come here because they knew they could get their additional degree, you’re right.
DUNAR: A chance to study in the evening hours and take classes, because they were flexible. Would Bob Lockwood accommodate people like that by adjusting the schedule so they could attend classes?
STEWART: Most definitely. If a guy said, “I want to work nothing but four to twelve shifts,” or “I want to work nothing but midnight shifts,” boy, the others would say, “That’s great!” [laughter] “That’s great, let him have it,” you know. I know of three while I was there, they were nothing but permanent midnights. That’s when they were working. You’ve got to watch those guys, though, because you never know how they’re going to be looking when they’d get to work because, working the midnight shifts, they’d walk in with their alarm clock and their pillow, you know. [laughter] But yes, it was attractive to some people because of the master’s . . .
SHAVER: That’s one thing that Mr. Truman would really be tickled about, about how
40
many folks did their homework at his desk. [chuckling]
STEWART: Yes, well, you know, the library was sort of our little office. There are many stories that could probably be told about the library that couldn’t be told to the general public, you know. I know I spent some time at that library and I can remember stories about it. I never heard for a fact, but about the president hiding his bottles behind books because she didn’t want him to drink. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard those. Yes, those are old stories.
DUNAR: Did you find anything?
STEWART: I didn’t, but Smitty was the one who said . . . She called him over one time to go through the books and get the bottles out. [laughter] So he told stories, I should say. Smitty was very dear to my heart because, like I say, I sat there and watched that man die on the job. It’s nice to be talking about the detail you were on, but that’s the way it was.
SHAVER: How was the morale, as a rule? Were there times when it was up and down?
STEWART: Sure, morale went up and down, and I think it was because of the lack of activity. Our guys come in and we’re used to travel. We’re used to traveling and going to other places, doing other assignments. You see, they tried to make that a two-year post, where they were there for two years and then they could move on. I, unfortunately, was hung up there for four years because I got a promotion to go there. I remember I started asking off after two years and they said, “No way.” [laughter] But they understood in Washington that it was a high stress level, because if you sit there for two years and you don’t go anywhere, it’s really hard on you. They tried to take the guys out on other
41
assignments, send them to other places to do other things, you know, so they wouldn’t get stagnant.
But it’s one of those small details with lack of activity and you have a lot of picking going on. You know, “Well, how come I’m having to work an extra night and I should be getting off?”
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: Just little things the guys would pick at. It was really tough. Me having to make up the work schedules and everything else, I was the bad guy because I was the one who said, “Well, you’re going to have to work that extra night because the schedule says so.” I felt it was very high-stress because of that. The guys did have a tough time.
SHAVER: Was that one reason why Bob decided to start mowing the yard, just to introduce another element into it, some variety?
STEWART: Yes, he was bored. Bob was very bored and he would do anything. You know, he’d spend a lot of hours over in that residence doing little things, what he felt he could do to take up the day, other than just sitting there looking out the window. That was one of the reasons he started mowing the yard, that and he liked getting out. You know, Bob is a great biker, he likes being outdoors, so that was just another way he could be outside and doing things. He’d go over there and scoop the drive, you know, shovel the sidewalks during the wintertime. You know, he’d do things like that. Of course, we were agents, we wouldn’t do that. Really, it was hard to get our guys out to shovel our own walk. [laughter]
42
DUNAR: What were your contacts like with the Independence Police Department?
STEWART: When I was there, very limited. I think in the early years there was a lot of contact with the police department. But I can remember in the four years I was there I think I only saw a police officer in our house only twice. We had their radio to monitor our call, in case we needed them. But as far as the police dropping by or us calling the police over or having a cup of coffee, very limited. I guess they figured we had it and that was good enough for them. You know, they didn’t have to worry about it. But I did find that while I was here, during those years there was very little contact, except when Jimmy Carter came. You know, Jimmy Carter came by and saw him during the last years, and we had a bit to do with them then, as far as support, but that was the only time in my four years that we had a lot to do with the Independence Police Department.
DUNAR: Was that the major dignitary visit while you were there?
STEWART: Yes, the big one when I was there was when Jimmy Carter came, stopped by the residence. That was really a biggie.
DUNAR: Yes. How do you organize for something like that? Because you would have to bring in other units, clearly, from [elsewhere].
STEWART: Yes, we did, we brought in support. There again, it took quite a bit. We used strictly the Independence Police Department, as far as our area was concerned. The Kansas City, Missouri Police Department was quite heavily involved in it. As far as the motorcade getting her there, or as far as the manned posting around the house and around the area, we used
43
Independence, along with the supplementary agents.
DUNAR: There are a couple of pictures of the Carter visit. Mike, were you not sure when this was taken?
SHAVER: Well, he came here to kick off his campaign, that’s all I can remember. That’s when I was going to school.
DUNAR: _________.
STEWART: Yes, that’s the same, that’s during his visit.
SHAVER: That and the picture of him coming out of the house. One thing I wanted to ask you is do you recognize the agent who was leading the parade out of the house?
STEWART: No, I don’t.
SHAVER: I don’t know if it’s him or not, but there’s another . . .
STEWART: That guy would be the lead agent on the detail at that time.
DUNAR: So you might have accompanied Carter here then?
STEWART: He came here to do the advance.
DUNAR: Oh, I see, okay.
SHAVER: [unintelligible] in those big visits, does the detail kind of like get shuttled off to the side? Or do they play a role?
STEWART: Oh, they play the major role. When you have a visit, what you do, you send out an advance team, like say, Jimmy Carter coming to Kansas City for this visit. You will send out an advance team to work with the Kansas City field office. The Kansas Citsiy office serves as your liaison.
SHAVER: [unintelligible]
44
STEWART: Obviously a guy coming in from Washington, uh, wouldn’t know. Well they got all that nursing staff in there, don’t they. I recognize the nurses.
DUNAR: Are that’s who they are?
STEWART: Oh, yeah. Those are nurses.
DUNAR: Okay.
STEWART: They come in for that visit. Anyway they come in, you might, you send in a lead who is the supervisor of the advance team. And then you send in a person for each site. In this case they had a site man here that was on the detail. And, uh, they way they work it is that . . . OK, so they come in, say, with six guys, and the field office matches them up with six. “You got the Truman residence.” So they send another guy. I was the uh, the contact or the liaison for the guy that had, from the detail, that was assigned to Truman. In other words, he’s on the Jimmy Carter detail, but he comes to me and we work together on setting up security for the Truman house. Okay, and that’s the way it works. And what I do, I get a hold of the Independence police department, fire department, and all that, so I work with the detail guy. Okay, the day of the visit, the guy that is in charge, rides with the President. And then whoever comes with the detail, comes with him. But the detail is always with him, they don’t get to set up inside, they stay with him. But it’s always the guys out here ahead of time that the ones that are doing the all busy work and having everything set up in a secure environment so they say.
SHAVER: Who takes charge in this instance where he enters, you know, the protected environment?
45
STEWART: The site guy.
SHAVER: The site guy.
STEWART: The site guy.
DUNAR: Do they have to bring in [unintelligible] since President Carter was a higher level of priority, I suppose, than Mrs. Truman. Did they have to bring in extra equipment to monitor the site and so forth?
STEWART: Oh, sure, because the President was going to be here.
DUNAR: Yeah, yeah.
STEWART: I don’t care if it was the mayor of Independence. The amount of checking would be the same on every stop, because it is the president. You know, as opposed to, than Rosalyn coming would be lesser.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: The vice president would be lesser. Because the president, the level of equipment, the level of security maintains the same at every stop. Whether it be here in Independence or Chicago, Illinois or Washington D. C. It’s always the same as far as the level of intelligence, the level of security, as far as you, say uh, DOD, explosive, anything that maintains. It maintains the same wherever you go.
DUNAR: Did the Carter visit pose any particular problems?
STEWART: No.
DUNAR: It’s pretty routine.
STEWART: Pretty routine. The only thing was your outer perimeters, where you had your crowd outside here. They did a good job by putting up ropes and
46
stanchions, which were big ones. And barrels with ropes around them or big heavy posts with ropes around them on the other side of the street obviously. And they had everything on the other side of the street as far as your crowd build up. And he could walk and shake hands, when he came out. He came out and walked, uh, directly across the street and walked around the corner, half way down Truman on that side and got in the car and left. But, he did pose any problems. Very receptive crowd. No problems at all.
DUNAR: And he went down to the library, too, didn’t he?
STEWART: No, he didn’t he go to Truman High, oh yeah, I’m sorry, he went to Truman High School and then the library after that.
SHAVER: And made a speech in front of the statue, too, I can recall.
DUNAR: Yes, we have a picture with, I guess, with some of the nurses, can you identify who the people are in this?
STEWART: I don’t remember their names at all. I just remember her. That’s LaMere.
DUNAR: Yes, right next to Mrs. Truman.
STEWART: Yes, but I know. Those obviously were two nurses and she looks like she might have been one of the nurses. That looks like library staff and library staff, I’m not real sure.
[End #3616B; Begin #3617]
SHAVER: How did the mail get handled in the later years? That’s another one of those little details we can never really tack down.
STEWART: It came up from the library.
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SHAVER: Did you fellows go pick it up?
STEWART: We used to. Yeah, it uh, went to uh, a lady, I can’t remember her name now . . .
SHAVER: Mary Jo?
STEWART: Mary Jo, it went to Mary Jo, and uh, then we’d go down and pick it up and bring it up the house.
SHAVER: Did you guys ever have to screen it or . . . ? Were you made aware of anything that . . . . ?
STEWART: It was prescreened. Mary Jo would open it all up. And then anything that had to do, derogatory it was given to us.
SHAVER: One incident, my sister’s friend relays to me, is one day he, uh, was walking by the house and the gate was open and the paper was out front. And, uh, he took the paper up and knocked on the door. He said he got Mrs. Truman, but I still suspect he got Mrs. LaMere, and handed her, and by the time he turned around he had an agent tapping him on the shoulder, smiling widely. Would an innocent incident like that, be . . . would you plug that fellow’s name in the computer?
STEWART: No, no.
SHAVER: I know, in some instances where, uh, people would pose threats that they, they would be plugged into the Secret Service element of the NCIC computer, or NI, NICI, I can’t keep it straight.
STEWART: Yes.
SHAVER: But typically, you didn’t have very many instances where you had to do that.
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STEWART: No, that we had, to have the guy checked out? No, we were very fortunate, or I was very fortunate during my tour of duty, that we didn’t have any gate crawlers or that sort of thing to post any kind of threat. I am sure, you know, it did occur, but they were so insignificant that I’ve forgotten them. How’s that?
SHAVER: [chuckling] Yes.
STEWART: We had habitual letter writers that would write Mrs. Truman, that we would get all the time, but they were nothing. They were, like I say, people from way back that had been writing letters for years, and they were more or less not threatening but abusive and this sort of thing.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: But we would periodically get letters from people who had been writing for years, you know. And we’d just look at them, read them and make sure that there was no threat that they were going to come over immediately and, you know, burn the house down and then we’d shred them.
DUNAR: Right, right.
STEWART: Basically what we’d do with them. But during my time there, there was nothing that I feel that was a threat to Mrs. Truman, you know. Or even the time I’ve been in the Service, other than the Puerto Ricans that were in jail . . .
DUNAR: Right, right.
STEWART: The one that was in jail, he was the biggest threat I can think of. Of course, they let him out after the president was dead or Mrs. Truman was dead.
49
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: Well, Jimmy Carter let him out, as a matter of fact. [chuckling]
SHAVER: [unintelligible].
STEWART: Yes, or something. But I couldn’t believe the arrogance of that guy. He said that if he had it to do again, he’d do it again. Getting out of jail, man, after all those years. Oh, well.
DUNAR: He probably built up a lot of frustration during those years though, too. [laughter]
STEWART: Yes. Well, I look at those things and, even though I was there, it sure does look like . . . boy it really happened back then? [laughter]
DUNAR: Yes. One other thing that we have, this was a list that was on the refrigerator in the house.
STEWART: [chuckling] Oh, okay.
DUNAR: Do you remember that list and who it was that put the list up? Was it Mrs. Truman maybe before she was ill? Or do you know what the origin of that might have been?
STEWART: [long pause] Well, I don’t believe Mrs. Truman put it up. I would say Valeria put it up.
DUNAR: Valeria did?
STEWART: Yes, for the nurses or for herself.
DUNAR: Oh, yes. Was Velma one of the nurses? Do you know who Velma was?
SHAVER: She was not quite a nurse. She may have been a cook.
STEWART: [reading list] Doris. Yeah, foot doctor, I remember that. Mrs. Wallace, Mary
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Sullivan, library, Lockwood.
DUNAR: Do you remember the doctor that’s listed?
STEWART: The foot doctor?
DUNAR: Yes, do you remember him?
STEWART: Yes, yes, I remember him, and he would come periodically. I remember he’d drive up the back. Of course, he would call and say he was coming, and he’d drive up in his nice car in the back. I mean, come down the alley, pull up in the driveway, and he carried that little black bag. [laughter] You know, it was a little black bag. It looked like a little doctor’s bag.
DUNAR: Just like the stereotype.
STEWART: Yes, yes, just the stereotype as all get out. [laughter] And I never saw the man other than on camera. You know, I’d know he was coming, but I’d know it was him because of that little black bag.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: Yes, I would say that that was written by Val, because just the names on here and the time frame.
DUNAR: Let’s see, Petey Childers, who was that? Do you know?
STEWART: Oh, boy, I remember that name, Petey Childers.
SHAVER: He’s the druggist in town.
STEWART: Is he?
DUNAR: He’s gone.
SHAVER: Yes, well, he was one of Mr. Truman’s old buddies. He’s still alive.
STEWART: Yes?
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SHAVER: And he owns the drugstore. I don’t think he [unintelligible].
STEWART: And he used to come calling, because I remember that name. He used to come calling, Childers.
SHAVER: Mr. Compton, do you remember Polly Compton?
STEWART: Yes, Polly Compton. Polly Compton would come over and shoot the pigeons off the ledge.
DUNAR: Yes, right.
SHAVER: Did he ever cause you any concern? [laughter]
STEWART: Well, sure, anybody out there making a . . . [laughter] You know, I mean, with his pellet gun shooting the pigeons. But they said, “Polly is going to come over and shoot the pigeons off our [unintelligible].” [laughter] Yes, I mean, you come in as a new agent, and all these things that’s been going on for years, and then, you know, they tell you it’s going to happen. Things never did seem right to me, you know. I came off the presidential detail with a biggie, you know, and then you come down here and you see this sort of thing, and it’s . . .
DUNAR: And people were coming over to shoot pigeons.
STEWART: You know, you just sort of . . . Okay. [laughter] Sit back and watch a guy over there with a gun shooting pigeons, you know. I mean, we had to put up with things about people complaining about the flag being left up. That was a big issue. Oh, we had people calling the command post, complaining about that flag being left up.
DUNAR: That it was up after sunset?
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STEWART: After sunset, yes. And who’s responsibility was it to take the flag up and down?
SHAVER: It’s your flag. [chuckling]
STEWART: That’s right. Secret Service had to take the flag up and down. And that caused a big morale problem, you know. Just little things, like I say, that could . . .
SHAVER: Well, they still call about that today.
STEWART: Oh, yes, do they?
DUNAR: Now it’s Mike’s job. [laughter]
STEWART: Yes, that flag was a big issue. No, I’d say Val wrote that, and she might have written it for the nurses.
SHAVER: There was a similar list taped to her bed, we found out.
STEWART: Oh, really? Well, she couldn’t write that well.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: Mrs. Truman couldn’t write that well. And there wouldn’t be any reason why, you know, that she would write down the Secret Service or Bob Lockwood.
DUNAR: Right.
STEWART: I think that Val would have written that for the nurses, if nothing else, just give them names and what have you. Because I know Mrs. Truman’s handwriting when I got there was terrible. SA R. Jordan. R. Jordan is in our intelligence division. Art Minklein is in Boston. Joe Calpin is one of the R.As. See, these are the guys that were on when I was there, all those guys.
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DUNAR: Oh, yes?
STEWART: Yes, Birdsong. Okay, yes, Cox, Birdsong, Gibeson were all there just prior to her death.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: So these were the very newest ones. Now, obviously, I’m not on there because this had to be written after I left.
DUNAR: Oh, I see. So this was right at the end then.
STEWART: Yes, right at the end.
SHAVER: So this would be about 1982 for this list.
STEWART: Yes, this list here.
SHAVER: Well, when did you leave the detail?
STEWART: October of 1982, I think it was, or 1981. I have to always . . . You know, I was there four years, I know that.
SHAVER: So you left before . . .
STEWART: Just before she died.
SHAVER: And Mr. Lockwood, did you leave before he retired?
STEWART: No, Lockwood retired before I left. Matter of fact, I did his retirement party. I worked it up, so I know that. Yes, Bob owes me a retirement, see. [laughter] A retirement party. I did his, he’s going to have to do mine.
SHAVER: I notice the nursing staff on some occasions threw some parties for her. Did you ever go to any of those?
STEWART: Yes. I vaguely remember them, yes.
SHAVER: Birthday party, her last birthday party.
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STEWART: Yes, sure, they did, and I remember going to it. Yes, I really do. They did. Oh, they treated her real well, the nursing staff. They picked a very nice nursing organization to do this. They were very competent. They treated her like she should have been treated. You know, not the nursing home type that you would visualize or something. They did, they treated her very well.
DUNAR: Did Margaret keep in touch with you on a regular basis?
STEWART: Yes, and whenever we had a real serious problem with Mrs. Truman, we were her major contact. If we took her to the hospital, she was on the call list, obviously. And while we were at the hospital, she would call us for an update. And, of course, we’d have to . . . We’re sitting out there and we’d have to go to the doctor and say, “Well, Mrs. Truman is going to be calling, let me know something.” But, yes, she would call us, as far as how her mother was doing and everything.
DUNAR: Would she call you during regular times, when Mrs. Truman was not in trouble, when she was still in house?
STEWART: Periodically, yes.
DUNAR: Yes? She’d check?
STEWART: Yes, periodically, she would call in.
DUNAR: Well, Mr. Gibeson talked a little bit about this, about keeping in touch with Margaret, in terms of her travel schedule, just in case you’d have to . . .
STEWART: Well, let’s just say that’s the procedure with any of the protectees.
DUNAR: I see.
STEWART: You always have to know where the daughters and sons are at, so that you
55
can notify them in case of emergency, that old thing.
DUNAR: Was Margaret pretty dependable in letting you know where she was at all times?
STEWART: Very dependable, yes. Yes, there was never a question of where she was at. I think I had to call her on a number of occasions and I was always able to get her, you know, as far as the condition of her mother or something that was going on. You guys are bringing back old things in my mind that I’ve put aside for a number of years, you know, and you forget that all these things did go on, you know.
DUNAR: Yes, yes. Is there anything that you can think of that we haven’t touched on that it’s an important aspect of the detail and protection of Mrs. Truman?
STEWART: Not at this point, no. You know, I’ll have to . . . This is one on me. See, I have twenty years in the Secret Service and I’m eligible to retire now. And this was syndicated. Did you ever hear the story about the yellow rose?
DUNAR: No.
STEWART: While she was in the hospital, she was always sent a yellow rose, and it was by a gentleman who is very wealthy here in this town. I wish I could remember his name.
SHAVER: Henry Talge.
STEWART: Henry Talge. The newsies loved this. Where was this mysterious yellow rose coming from? And I’m telling this story on myself, okay? After four years of this, I was sitting there one Sunday afternoon and I had a Kansas City Star reporter call up wanting to know about this yellow rose. And I don’t know if
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I was tired, because of serving so much time at the hospital, or, like you say, after four years of sitting, staring out the window, I just really didn’t care at that point. [chuckling] I told this guy about the yellow rose. I said, “Oh, that thing, it comes from Mr. Henry Talge, an old friend of hers, you know,” and I just started briefly telling him the story. I remember that he wanted to know where Talge was and I said, “Well, I think that he lives over at the Alameda Plaza.” I just don’t remember exactly everything I told this guy, but I remember I worked the midnight shift that night and I no more got in bed the next morning than the phone started ringing. Not only did my boss, or the SAIC of Kansas City call me, but I also got a call from headquarters. The thing was syndicated.
SHAVER: Over the wires.
STEWART: The story was syndicated, using my name, about that yellow rose. [laughter] And I really got myself in some hot water in a sense. See, that’s why . . . in the sense that I divulged the private life of a protectee.
DUNAR: Oh, I see, yes.
STEWART: And I did get in serious trouble over that one. But that’s one of those things that you think . . . you talk sometimes and you wish you hadn’t, you know.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: But just making light conversation over a yellow rose incident. [laughter] But that’s when I . . . First, I’ll never forget it because I thought, “Oh, my gosh, I let out a national security,” you know?
DUNAR: Yes, yes. [laughter]
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STEWART: I’ve really blown it. Here I’m rated top secret and I talked about that yellow rose. [laughter] But there was a series of articles and letters to the editor lambasting me for divulging this, by irate citizens of the town, because I told them where that yellow rose came from, violating the . . .
DUNAR: It’s a little more romantic when it’s a secret, I think. [laughter]
STEWART: Yes, yes. But that’s one of the incidents of my life and the Trumans’ I’ll probably remember.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: Not only meeting Mr. Truman, but that I let out who the yellow rose was coming from.
DUNAR: [laughter] The national secret.
STEWART: That’s all I’m going to say. Seeing as though it was syndicated and I’ve already been reprimanded for it. [laughter]
DUNAR: Give it another call. Well, I can’t think of anything else. Do you have any other questions?
SHAVER: What were your impressions of Mrs. [May] Wallace? How did she play into the picture?
STEWART: Mrs. Wallace, during the time I was there, was really in the background. Mrs. Wallace lived over there and hardly ever did she go over to that house. Now, the only time I can remember Mrs. Wallace paying regular visits into the Truman residence was when Mrs. Truman was really sick. To me, I didn’t think Mrs. Wallace was in that great of health either, but, boy, she’d jump in that car daily and go somewhere. So, you know, that was one car
58
that we were very familiar with going up and down that driveway was Mrs. Wallace’s car. But during the last four years, she was not very active, as far as the interrelationship with Mrs. Truman, and it might, you know . . . For what reason, I don’t know, other than she was the next-door neighbor, she was related and what have you, but I’d say as far as them constantly having tea parties or having dinner or going out shopping, no.
SHAVER: Did she park in the garage?
STEWART: Yes, right next to Mrs. Truman’s. I used her garage to park my vehicle, Mrs. Wallace. I had a brand-new king cab there at the end and I had a Secret Service car and I didn’t have a place to put my car. So I put my vehicle in Mrs. Wallace’s garage. [laughter]
DUNAR: Right, yes.
SHAVER: Do you know which stall . . . This is a good one, because we just put a maintenance shop in one of them.
DUNAR: [chuckling] Yes.
SHAVER: Oh, gosh, but do you know which stall that you guys normally parked the Truman’s vehicle in?
STEWART: Yes, it’s the one right next to the driveway. The one where it was when you found it.
DUNAR: On the right side or the left side?
SHAVER: Oh, okay, right where we found it, okay.
STEWART: Yes.
SHAVER: Where it is today.
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STEWART: Yes, that’s the one it was always in. Even when I started twenty years ago, it was in that stall there.
DUNAR: The one on the left side.
STEWART: Yes, when you’re looking at the garage, the left side.
SHAVER: Well, the maintenance shop is safe then.
DUNAR: It’s safe, yes.
STEWART: Yes, yes.
DUNAR: Somebody had told us something different, and we were concerned that . . .
STEWART: No, no. The twenty years that I can remember, that car was in the left side.
SHAVER: When you were taking drives, do you remember any particular place that she liked to go, more often than not?
STEWART: There were two places we went that she liked a lot. Number one, obviously, was Stephensons’ apple farm—that was enjoyable. The other place was a little place down in Raytown. I’m trying to think of the name of the restaurant. Oh, gee, it was on Blue Ridge Road that goes down there, it just slipped me. But she was big on Chinese food, she liked Chinese food. Hong Kong Palace, I think it was, up here on Sterling, is where we took her, or we’d go pick it up and bring it to her. Now, that was some runs that we made that were non-protective. [laughter] LaMere would call up and say she ordered Chinese food up here at this Hong Kong Palace. We’d go up and get it and bring it back to her.
SHAVER: Mrs. Truman and carry-out, that’s something that little kids can relate to. [laughter]
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STEWART: Yes, yes, but we would go up . . . When we didn’t take her up to the little Chinese place, I know we went there quite a lot.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: They’re no longer in business, they’re out of business. I think they moved to Blue Springs, I’m not real sure. But we’d go up there to that Chinese place, and when we didn’t go, we’d get carry-out and bring to her. That’s the only carry-out I can remember bringing to her was the Chinese.
SHAVER: Were there any places she just liked to go on drives?
STEWART: Yes, just out in the country. I mean, out in the country, out where there’s tall weeds and corn, not so much in town. Well, we’d go up around the river area, north of Independence, over towards Blue Springs and then back in this area.
DUNAR: Would she tell you a particular place to go or just to go out in the country?
STEWART: No, just go out in the country, just drive. And I think there at the end it was a lot of LaMere and the nurses getting her out than what she really wanted to do.
DUNAR: Oh, yes.
STEWART: But if we drove, it was out in the country, it was not in town itself. We did take her—matter of fact, her last Christmas . . . This is not the Christmas that she . . . When did she really . . .
DUNAR: In October of 1982.
STEWART: Oh, gosh.
SHAVER: Yes, she died in October [unintelligible].
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STEWART: So she died right after I left, didn’t she?
SHAVER: Something like October eighteenth.
DUNAR: I think that’s it, the eighteenth of October.
STEWART: Yes? Well, anyway, her last Christmas I took her down to the Plaza to see the lights. I remember that, we took a ride to the Plaza. And, yes, I remember that. That was one of my last . . . matter of fact, probably our last trip out. We put her in our car and took her to the Plaza to see the lights.
DUNAR: Did she react to that?
STEWART: Yes, I think she was very pleased. I think she really was very pleased with that, if I remember right, because that was something that made her really happy.
DUNAR: We have one more picture that I think is from earlier.
STEWART: Yes, very early.
DUNAR: But is that a Secret Service van or was that a private van?
STEWART: No, that was a Secret Service van. Yes, that replaced the car.
DUNAR: I see.
STEWART: See, we used to sit in cars and then the van came. Matter of fact, you can see the jacks where you plug in.
DUNAR: Oh, yes.
STEWART: See? There’s probably a phone jack in there and one for the heater and the air conditioner, and all that stuff would run off of AC instead of DC. Yes, that was a Secret Service vehicle.
DUNAR: Was this still in service when you were here?
62
STEWART: No, because, see, they were across the street.
DUNAR: Yes, so they didn’t . . .
STEWART: Oh, yes. Matter of fact, this would probably have preceded the house.
DUNAR: Oh, I see, okay.
STEWART: The house was next after this. We went from sitting in a normal car, where you stuck the heater in the passenger side, to this and then over to the house, is the way it went.
DUNAR: I see, I see. After you got rid of this vehicle then, was there a car that sort of belonged to the detail?
STEWART: Oh, yes. There were two vehicles assigned to the detail. One was a limousine-type, which would have been a Chrysler or a big car so that you could get her or him in and out of it, and then there was a follow-up car. That’s the package that’s standard, the limousine and the follow-up.
DUNAR: I see. And anytime she went out, you had both?
STEWART: Yes, but she liked to ride in her car.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: We wouldn’t take our car. It wasn’t until the end that I started making the determination that our car was in better shape than hers. Hers needed a lot of work done on it, you know, muffler going bad and that sort of thing. You still got the significant license plates on there, I guess?
SHAVER: Oh, yes.
STEWART: Yes, everything is probably just the way it was.
DUNAR: Yes.
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STEWART: But we used to take her car, until the end, and then I said, “Well, my gosh, we’ve got this brand-new Chrysler,” you know.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: “It’s silly to take her car,” so we started putting her in our car. But most generally when we went out we took her car, the big Chrysler. And I couldn’t blame her because that thing is a boat compared to what they have now, you know. And even though I had a brand-new full-size blown Chrysler there at the end, it’s still a little tighter than getting her in and out of her car.
DUNAR: Right, right. Yes, just for convenience.
STEWART: But just for dependability, well, we started driving our cars.
SHAVER: So there was still more or less a limo-type vehicle assigned to your staff?
STEWART: Oh, yes, yes. There was always a limo-type, a large car assigned to us for their purpose. See, we like to drive our protectees in our own cars because we maintain them and it’s got our radios in them. Matter of fact, she had our radio in her car. That was the only way we could use hers. Oh, yes, it was pulled out. We had a Secret Service radio in her car.
SHAVER: Okay, now that explains why the antenna is crooked, because somebody put it back in there [unintelligible].
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: Yes, if you look, probably down on the mat . . . I don’t know, is it mat or is it old rubber floorboard?
SHAVER: [unintelligible].
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STEWART: Yes, it would have been installed right there on that hump, the Secret Service radio. But there was a Secret Service radio in her car. If you look around, you’ll see the mounting holes where everything was at.
SHAVER: I’ve looked everywhere else for your things, but I’ve never really looked in the car. But you’re right, you would have had to have one in there.
STEWART: Yes.
DUNAR: Can you think of anything else, Mike?
SHAVER: Unless he has any particular story.
STEWART: No, I told you my yellow rose story and that’s all I have . . . [laughter]
SHAVER: [unintelligible] little things you might remember about the house? We’ve still got a few minutes of tape. Any things in particular that you remember?
STEWART: Now the house, like I say, it was old and . . . I went through it, and the upstairs, I remember, it was just like set up like he was still there. Okay?
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: The hats hanging around, the canes, everything was just like he was still there. And in Margaret’s room, the little dolls around and this sort of thing. I noticed that they sort of maintained that in the upstairs. Downstairs, the kitchen area, you know, is a kitchen area and it would change around because people were using it. The library, I felt, was like it was when he was there, not much would have been changed. The formal living room was hardly ever used, so it was the same. The only places that would change is when they brought her down . . . and I guess you call that a sitting room, there to the . . . When you walk in, it’s on the right-hand side, where she . . .
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a sitting room and then that little back . . .
SHAVER: Well [unintelligible] living room and then the downstairs bathroom.
STEWART: Yes. And, of course, the basement was a horror to me. You know the coal bin and back where all those wine bottles were thrown in the dirt and everything else, I always thought that was interesting, all that stuff laying back there. But, you know, I know there’s people that can tell you more about the house than I could, of any historical significance. It was just an old home, their home and everything.
SHAVER: Your impressions are important.
DUNAR: Did you ever sit in the study and read his books while you were on the midnight detail?
STEWART: No. No, I had my own book to read. I would look at . . . [laughter]
DUNAR: [unintelligible].
STEWART: No, I don’t want to get into this. [laughter]
DUNAR: Go ahead.
STEWART: Oh, no, no, no.
SHAVER: I think we need to know.
STEWART: I would look at the titles and everything. Of course, you could just open up and see there were books that were autographed by the authors. You know, they were very interesting and everything. But it was interesting to sit there and look. But the times I was over there, I normally had something else to do. You know, change the batteries in her alarm or check the alarms. I didn’t really sit and dwell and, you know, look at the . . . But I did look at the
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pictures and think . . . The originals, you know, like from Winston Churchill and this sort of thing.
DUNAR: Right, right.
STEWART: Those catch your eye.
DUNAR: Sure.
STEWART: And mementos that were given to him laying around, they were things that I would look at. But I thought it was a very interesting house. If I ever had an opportunity to take people over there and show them, I would, because, you know, going into the Truman House, it’s like . . . I don’t think my wife has ever been in it. Which brings to mind, can I get tickets to go in and show my wife, you know?
SHAVER: Yes, give me a call someday and we’ll set you up.
DUNAR: If you were taking your wife through, what would you want to point out to her?
STEWART: Oh, well, I would want her to see the whole thing.
DUNAR: Yes, yes.
STEWART: I’d want her to see the upstairs bedrooms. The kitchen, pshaw, you know. I think the library is interesting, the formal . . . Of course, it means more to me because I was there.
DUNAR: Sure.
STEWART: I know where Mrs. Truman was in the house. I’d want to show her the living room, the library. I’d want to show her the upstairs bedroom where he supposedly slept, Margaret’s room, you know, those three upstairs
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bedrooms. And I always thought that one that ran through was very interesting.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: You know, the one that goes through the back of the house and you can walk through? I always thought that was a unique type of room back there, you know. But you’d want to show them the three upstairs bedrooms anyway, you know, the major ones. And then downstairs, the library and the living room. Of course, I’d point out that this was where she was when I was there and everything.
DUNAR: Sure.
STEWART: Those are just things I’d want to show her. The veranda, I’d like to show her the outside porch where we sat out and drank our martinis and discussed the smell of the flowers, you know.
DUNAR: Yes.
STEWART: But to me, I would have more . . . The whole house would be of [more] interest to me than anyone else because I’ve been through the whole house. The basement is no significant thing, but the grounds, you know, go out and show her where the car was and where we used to set up and that sort of thing.
DUNAR: Sure. Was the basement used at all for anything?
STEWART: [laughter] Jim O’Connor will be able to tell you the story about the tornado warnings in the basement.
DUNNAR: Oh really?
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STEWART: About him being sent over there to take Mrs. Truman to the basement.
DUNNAR: Oh really?
STEWART: I will let him, if you want to interview him about that he tells a good story about going over there and her in so many words saying “I am not going to the basement.”
END OF INTERVIEW