John Bishop and Al Zwiazak

Sandy Hook, Gateway NRA, NPS
An Oral History Interview with Albin Zwiazek and John Bishop
52nd Coast Artillery, Battery C and E
1937 -1939
Topic: Visits of the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth and President Franklin D. Roosevelt and World’s Fair Guard Duty
June 10, 1939 and August 1939
Interviewed by Elaine Harmon and Tom Hoffman, NPS
May 31, 1981
Transcribed by Danny Gutch and Mary Rasa 2011

King George VI and Queen Elizabeth disembark their train at Red Bank (NJ) Train Station.

King and Queen meet with dignitaries at Red Bank (NJ) Train Station

52nd Coast Artillery, Battery E "Guard of Honor" in Red Bank, NJ

President Franklin D. Roosevelt in motorcade at Fort Hancock docks on way to Red Bank Train Station, August 1939

Photos courtesy of NPS/Gateway NRA

Editor’s notes in parenthesis ( )

EH: Today is May 31, 1981 and this is Elaine Harmon. I'm sitting in the Sandy Hook Museum after the 6th Annual Halyburton Ceremony with two guests and they've just begun to sit and talk and talk and think aloud about what it was like to be here during the visit of the King and Queen of England because they both happened to be here on June 10, 1939 during their service at Fort Hancock. I'd like to introduce Mr. John. R. Bishop and Mr. Albin Zwiazek. And both of them if they would just give us them their units and years they were here just to start off.

JB: Well, I'm John Bishop and I came here July 1, 1937 and I was stationed here until 1939. It was somewhere around October 1939. I was with Battery E, 52nd Coast Artillery Railway.

EH: And Mr. Zwiazek?

AZ: Well, I came here February 20, 1937 and I left here around early November of 1939. Fifteen of us from Battery C, 52nd Coast Artillery Railway were sent up to Governors Island to guard long term prisoners in Castle Williams which was the Atlantic Branch of the United States Disciplinary Barracks.

EH: So you were in adjacent barracks?

AZ: We were in the same building as a matter of fact for a while. Building 74, the large building.

EH: The U shaped building.

AZ: E Battery was south, south end and C Battery was towards the north end. We also had other barracks. Part of C Battery was in Building 23 and part of E Battery was in Building 22. Now John's Battery served as the, “Guard of Honor” for the King and Queen of England on June 10, 1939. And I'm sure he'll tell you enough about that. They were at Red Bank (NJ). I was in C Battery and we served as the, “Guard of Honor” here at the dock for the King and Queen were ready to board their destroyer for New York City.

EH: Okay. Mr. Bishop, you were mentioning before that you were positioned on the top of the (Sandy Hook) Lighthouse during the Royal Visit. Tell me about that.

JB: Well, not exactly positioned up there. What happened prior to the time that the King and Queen passed through Fort Hancock, we had to search the grounds very thoroughly. And one of my duties were, my job was to go to the top of the Lighthouse, me and several other men, and look the place over to make sure everything was secure. No bombs, nobody hiding, or anything like that up in the top of the Lighthouse. Then after that, the building, the Officers’ Quarters, they were checked out. The officers were at the home with authority to answer for everything; like each person that was in the building, why they were there, like children, mother-in-laws, wives and so on. The place was very well secured. Like Al said, it was secured for three days prior to the time that the King and Queen entered the Fort to take the….

EH: So, you were on regular shifts going up and down the Lighthouse?

JB: No. No. Just one trip up. We went up. We looked it over. Like I said before I was only up in the Lighthouse when we were talking about visitors going up in the Lighthouse. You said you didn't have too many visitors going up there today. And I said well, the only time I was up there, was when the King and Queen of England came here to this country. I said that I was up there to check it out for security reasons. And I said that was my first and only time up that I was ever up in the Lighthouse. Now what happened after we left the Lighthouse, the doors, and whatever were secured. And no one was even allowed to go to the top of the Lighthouse. Maybe a possibility of the lighthouse keeper if something was to happen to the light. He could probably have special permission to go there but that I’m not sure of. But I would assume it would be for the safety of the ships at sea.

EH: Mr. Zwiazek, you were talking about the fact that it was called a quarantine for three days.

AZ: They called it a quarantine. I guess that must mean no one comes and goes. No one came into the Fort and no one left for three days. They had men from the 16th Infantry down at the Main Gate with machine guns, loaded machine guns facing Highland Beach. In other words, don't come in. And this place, the peninsula was surrounded by Naval and Coast Guard vessels. And we searched, just like John said, we searched every building on this Post. Basements, poison ivy bushes, everything you can think of to see if anything didn't belong here and could possibly harm the King and Queen. And in addition to that you always had Military Police around checking things. That was standard always, you know. And you had members of the Main Guard who were stationed right here at this building. We used to walk Post here and always had their eyes open. What we did was, in addition to that, for three days, so the King and Queen would be safe when they came here. I should mention also, when the King and Queen arrived, we had what they called, “Cossack guards” stationed all along the road facing away from the road. Most people never saw the King and Queen. They (the soldiers) were like five paces apart facing Sandy Hook Bay and the other group on the other side of the road facing the ocean. No one could get through these people.

EH: This was only on June 10, 1939?

JB: I hate to interrupt you but was this on the Post now? Are you talking about from the Gate in here? Because I got something to say from the Gate on out.

AZ: Right. You were in Red Bank. But this is what was in here. You see, they had other people besides C Battery and E Battery who were stationed here. These people were involved in these other jobs. And I don’t know if it was Headquarters of the 7th Coast Artillery or Headquarters of the 52nd (Coast Artillery) or who did this work. They had many, many troops here like Quartermaster, you know in addition to us.

EH: Yes.

AZ: In addition to our outfit, our truck drivers, Quartermaster Corps and Headquarters, and people like that and Finance Department. I think they recruited all of these people at that time to perform these duties.

EH: Hmm. Mr. Bishop what were you saying happened beyond Sandy Hook?

JB: I was just gonna say, Al touched on what happened in Sandy Hook. Now, what impressed me a lot was when we went out we went in a convoy of trucks and as soon as we got outside of the Gate it seemed that I never saw so many servicemen in my life. They must have been made up of National Guard and servicemen from other areas. And they seemed to be lined up from shoulder to shoulder from outside the Gate as far as I can remember. And then when we got down at Red Bank, they also had State Police, soldiers, and what not stationed on buildings. You name it they were there.

EH: On tops of buildings.

JB: On the top of the buildings like the store buildings and places like that. And I recall one thing we had to wait there quite a while. Little things like this come back to your attention when we’re talking about things. They had an outfit down there. It could have been the infantry. I know they had rifles and they had bayonets. And although we were soldiers the same as they were, they had their job to do and we had our job to do. So we had a little break because we were waiting too long. We were permitted to leave to go and find the men's room somewhere. Well, what happened, me and my buddy that I mentioned to you before, we started through this bunch of soldiers, or rather the soldiers that were lined up, and we started through them, they just crossed their bayonets right in front of us. And there we stood.

EH: Wow.

JB: We had to go back into our own ranks and find another way around because they were very strict. You know, everyone had their job to do. Well, if you want me to continue on that was one thing.

EH: Sure.

JB: Now the next thing I recall was when the train came into Red Bank. It was a very funny experience. Because when the train pulled in, I paid no attention to the engine, but I did notice that one train, one coach rather, had a coat of arms, and I couldn't figure out why. I found out later on that it was actually the coach for the King and Queen of England. And I was told that that was shipped over from England special. It was their own coach and it was shipped over by ship for their own use. Now, this is the point now I wanna get at. When they pulled into the station, the coach stopped right in front of where we were lined up and nobody moved. Nobody come out of the coach or nothing. It seemed like as I told you before, like it was a ship lost at sea with nobody on it and boarding the ship and finding nobody there. Well, that's the way it was. The train stopped. Nobody got off the coach and it seemed for an eternity before anything happened. And finally I saw a person pull the curtain to one side on the coach and he looked out. And after that, I think it was one or several persons got off before the King and Queen. I'd say they could have been security. But then the King and Queen got off and it was very impressive. I mean they were just like we were. Just regular, they weren’t like King and Queen. They were very sociable like. No, nothing fancy. Another thing that impressed me or what I thought kind of funny when they got ready to inspect us. You know how it was, they went up the front of you, come down behind the back. I mean the back of the front ranks, and they'd come up behind the second ranks, and down the back. Well, naturally, not knowing our ways, the King he was asked if he'd like to inspect the troops. And he said that he would. So what happened, he walked up in front, he kinda threw us off because as he walked up in front of us, we'd come up to inspection arms, and he'd come up through the front ranks alright, but instead of him coming back down the back of the troops, looking at the back part of them, and then come up in front of the second, the second rank, he comes up the second rank, from our right hand side. And we had to just go in reverse giving him the salute with the rifle. You know what I mean up in this direction.

EH: Ah huh.

JB: So that was kinda odd, you know? It was the way he done it. So, I guess that’s all unless Al's got something to say. I can think of a little more later.

AZ: I thought maybe this would be an interest to people also. The King and Queen of England were in Canada before they came here. They came down by train to Washington, DC and they stayed at the White House with President and Mrs. Roosevelt. And they also had a railroad locomotive that came down on the tracks that they were to traverse ahead of them incase there were any bombs or anything. This train would be involved, not the King and Queen.

EH: Wow.

AZ: I understand all the way through. They came to Washington, stayed there in Washington, at the White House, and from there it came to Red Bank. They got on the motorcars in Red Bank. Took that to Fort Hancock, and got on the destroyer Warrington, which was here for several days. The sailors were painting it, brushing up and everything, cleaning it. We walked around. It looked so odd to see white uniforms among the olive drab here. They got on this destroyer, went to New York and from there they went to the World's Fair, and from the World's Fair they went to Hyde Park (New York), where they hot dogs for the first time. They went to Hyde Park to President Roosevelt's home. And as far as what happened here, like John said they were on the “Guard of Honor” at Red Bank and we were on the “Guard of Honor” here at the dock. But they didn't do anything else here. We, well people here fired a twenty-one gun salute, which was right out here. There were two guns right by the flag pole here.

EH: The flag pole on the Parade Grounds we're talking about right?

AZ: Yes. Now we had a destroyed by the name of Campbell, excuse me it was a Coast Guard Cutter, Campbell. That was out here off the dock maybe a couple of hundred yards. And they also would fire off a twenty-one gun salute. And then the King and Queen boarded the Warrington. You should have seen this place with all the Naval vessels, the Coast Guard vessels.

EH: Surrounding it.

AZ: Very impressive. All around us in Sandy Hook Bay, on the ocean side. All around right down to the Main Gate. And we had the Infantry men down there with the machine guns.

EH: Tell us about the preparation you mentioned like for three days. Every building was searched, nothing went in or out. Talk about that for a while.

AZ: There was a very, very thorough search for anything that would harm the King and Queen. Three days no one was allowed to leave this place, no one was allowed to come into Fort Hancock. We searched every cellar, every attic, every building, every bush, poison ivy and otherwise, completely searched. John said he was in the Lighthouse for that purpose. He didn't go up there to sightsee. He went to see if anything was planted there to do harm to the Royal family. It was very impressive. I didn't realize, well I was only nineteen. I didn't realize how much preparation went into a visit of the Royal couple. All precautions were taken, whatever you could possibly think of, very, very impressive. The King was wearing like a grayish morning coat with a top hat. And the Queen was wearing a sort of like a powder blue dress or suit. Very, very nice. I'm thinking back now she must have been thirty-nine years old. Nice looking lady. The Queen smiling at everyone. You know very, very nice. It was a thrill to be selected to this, you know. I just don’t mind mentioning it. If there is anything else you would like me to add to it. If you could prompt me in some way.

TH: What was the reaction of people here? Were they excited about it?

JB: Well, like I say, I don't really know what was going on here at the Post. Maybe Al would know more because like I say I was down at Red Bank. But prior to that, you know how soldiers are. Some of them want to get out and get going. When you’re quarantined for three days, nobody's what you call happy.

TH: Yeah, but like I do mean the people down in Red Bank. I’m sure they had a big crowd.

JB: Oh yes. Sure they did. But everything was secured down there too. They could maybe look from the porches and stuff like that. But right where they got off the train, like I mentioned before, they had State Police there. They had cops. You name it they were there. They were on rooftops, buildings and all over. Probably looking out windows. I know I could see some of them up on rooftops. We could only see a limited amount of things too from where we were. We were right in front of the (Red Bank) Station and of course we were stuck there until after the King, you know, got off the train and then embarked for this destination of Sandy Hook. I know, I do recall, in fact some of the pictures that I got which you may have seen, I know you have, it showed State Police there, my Battery Commander, I think his name was Captain Wood, and they were talking to the King and Queen. And I'm sure that State Trooper was probably one of the higher authorities.

TH: Did the King and Queen get to walk by you?

JB: Well, we were just saying before, he got to walk by me but he walked in the wrong direction. The Queen, I think she stood her ground right where she was outside of the coach they arrived on. She was talking to several of them there. And when it was the Captain's honor to ask the King if he would like to inspect the troops, and like I was telling Elaine, what happened. You don't break ranks, you take one or two, two or three paces forward. I forget what it is now I won't try to go into detail on that, to open the ranks. That's what they call, “open the ranks.” And as we were facing, he's supposed to start from our left, walk up the first rank, make a turn, and come back down the first rank behind them, inspect them like the back part of their uniforms and so on. You know, that’s the routine thing. The regular inspection that's what they would do. Inspect the back part, see if the clothes are nice and neat, the shoes and so on. Then, he was supposed to make a turn when he got down to the end and come up from the left for the second rank. Do the front, and then do the same thing he did with the front rank. But instead he went up the front rank, instead of going to the back of them like he should of he went to the front of the second rank. In other words, he was inspecting the second rank from the right hand side. And that kind of threw us off because we were always looking out of the corner of our eye to see an officer stepped up to you. By not being able to look that way, and not being used to it, we just had to show inspection arms the best we could. I think we'd done a good job. I'd say we'd done a good job.

TH: Was it full dress uniform you were in that day?

JB: Oh yes, yes....We'd wear our dress uniform. Like I say what we call our dress uniform was a Garrison uniform. The Army did have uniforms as Al will attest to. They were a blue uniform. Like a blue Al, right? They were dress but no soldiers ever as a rule bothered with them because they were pretty expensive. You had to buy them yourself and have them tailor made and we didn't have that kind of money. But they were similar to a Marine uniform. In fact, not Marine uniform, dress uniform but it was a pretty good looking uniform. Yeah Al you want to say something.

AZ: I'd like to add about the uniform. You go down to Arlington. They wear them. That’s the uniform. We were not issued those uniforms. We could wear them.

EH: What did you wear on this occasion?

JB: We used to wear a two tone olive drab uniform. The blouse was a darker olive drab. The trousers were a lighter olive drab. Elastic was the material they called it. And on occasions like that wore leather equipment, not webbed belts, leather garrison belt with the keep box in the rear, a little ammunition container and white gloves. We always wore white gloves on special parades or other things of that sort. And Tom Hoffman asked me before about what the people thought. I don't really know what the civilian population thought, but I was thrilled about this visit. I guess I was born will all this pomp and pageantry desire. I always liked that and I thought it was a great thing. And I think most of the young soldiers here felt the same way. They were honored to be chosen for this position. And I would say maybe the old timers were sort of jaded or whatever. It was nothing to them. But I thought it was a great thing. (two people start talking) I’m sorry….

JB: I’m sorry. It was my mistake here.

AZ: I met Tom Hoffman about six or seven years ago he asked me, he sort of questioned me about the “Guard of Honor” thing. I will never forget that day. I remember that day well. I don't remember what day of the week it was but I remember the date.

TH: To the best of your knowledge, do you know the route they took? Because we always had this question as to whether they slowed down and/or stopped to look at that Halyburton monument.

AZ: Well, what I know Tom they never stopped. From what I'm told from other people who were stationed along there. You know, they had this cossack guards there who were facing away from the road all the way up from the Main Gate. And from what I understand from the fellows who were stationed there, that they wouldn’t stop at the monument. Everybody was thinking about them stopping at this monument. Everybody is charged up about that monument from these British guys and as far as I understand, they did not stop there. They came up the one and only road up here. They came out on front of the (Post) Hospital, that road that faces alongside of Sandy Hook Bay. Right down here that road. They didn't come back here or anything. They went along that road and there were people all the way down that signaling where to go. They'd know where to find the guns here. You had to know when to fire these saluting guns. Either they'd start too late or finish before they arrive. Things like that. And they'd go right along the water here to the dock. They were here maybe fifteen-twenty minutes and then they boarded the destroyer.

TH: Was it a fast pace, the car going?

AZ: I don't think it was too fast. Twenty-twenty-five miles an hour. From what we could see. Not too fast. I understand they slowed down by the Hospital to honor the patients that were sitting, you know soldiers, that were sitting on the porches, those porches were open in those days and they waved to the soldiers who were sick and sitting there. I think that is about the only place that they slowed down on this peninsula.

JB: Well, you asked me about the public, about the general public, how they liked it. Well, I would say like anyone else that’s watching a parade or something like that, I would say that they were real impressed with the whole thing. I imagine, I could tell, I couldn’t say for sure but I would assume that they watched it from their porches and naturally they couldn’t get right up close to them because they were well protected and guarded. As the motorcade went by I would assume that the people could see it from the back of the soldiers or the National Guardsmen or whoever was on guard along the route of travel. I would say impressed. I know I would be impressed if I was out there and the King and Queen came to this country.

TH: How did you get back from Red Bank? Did the Army…

JB: Back in a truck. Back in a truck. That’s a funny thing you remember these things, I know I did. I could remember things going but I could never remember thing coming back. You know, like I can’t remember getting on the trucks and coming back or anything. I remember getting on and going down. And not to get off the story when you asked me that question I went all the way down to Lewes, Delaware on maneuvers. We went down by train. And would you believe it I remember everything going down, I remember when we got to Dover, Delaware I fell asleep and I remember when we got into Lewes, Delaware the people watching us because we were like an oddity you know coming in there. Our guns were already down there and placed already. A detail went down ahead of us. Coming back, I can’t remember getting on the train. I can’t remember coming back. The only thing I can remember coming back, we arrived here at night we got off the train. The train came right in here to the Post. We got off the train down towards guns. We walked up the road there and to our barracks. So that’s why I say a lot of things I can’t remember them all anymore. Most impressive things I can remember. A lot of things getting by me let’s say. After all, when you’re 66 years old you start to forget some of these things after forty some odd years. I mean being out of the Army.

AZ: The car the King and Queen arrived in was a closed car in case anyone would be interested. It was a large vehicle. I don’t know what kind it was. It was enclosed with a metal roof and what not. It wasn’t open like a touring car.

TH: I was just wondering when you got back did you get any special letter of thank you from the Commanding Officer. How did you feel after the ceremony? I’m sure you were relaxed, right.

AZ: I went with another guy from South Amboy that night looking for girls and we didn’t find any. (laughter)

EH: Too much quarantine.

AZ: Yeah. Cooped up for three days, wow.

JB: Now, see that’s something that I can’t remember what happened after it was all over. I know we come back to the barracks and that was it.

AZ: We received a letter from the Commanding General of the Second Service Command who was also the Commanding General of the First Army, the newly formed First Army. His name was Lt. General Hugh A. Drum. We received a letter. Some time ago I sent Tom Hoffman a copy of this letter. If you don’t have it, I’ll maybe send you the original. It lists all the men who participated in this affair. It’s a thank you letter from General Drum who was also here, who was also here. He was at Red Bank. He was at the ceremony. His picture is on one of those cards, those photographs. He was the General in the white uniform. And he sent us a letter and actually it comes down through channels, you know and down to you Battery Commander and then each participating soldier is issued a copy of this letter and I have one.

TH: General Drum is buried at Arlington. I believe he died in 1955.

AZ: That’s about right. He was not to get off the subject much but he was a very nice person. He was a Colonel in World War I and there were four Lieutenant General’s promoted in 1939 and he was one of them. It was Ben Lear, Walter Kruegar, Lesley McNair and Hugh A Drum. They created four Armies and made there were only Major General and one four-star General Chief of staff there was no Lt. Generals. They made four then. Now they are a dime a dozen. But he was a very, very friendly man, like a father. We were here on time we were on a “Guard of Honor” for him and he arrived walked by all of us and go down to my buddy who was shorter and further down the line in the next platoon. My friend was wearing all these gunners insignia, qualification badges so General Drum said, “Soldier, are you a good soldier.” “Yes, sir.” We were snickering because he talked to people. Most Generals didn’t talk to you. They looked at you. But he was nice. Top man for this area, this service command. And the State Trooper that John mentioned before was the Superintendent of the New Jersey State Police. He was here and Governor A. Harry Moore I think was also here.

EH: The reception at Red Bank, was there a big bandstand or what was it?

JB: I don’t recall any bandstand because he didn’t waste too much time down there. He just got off and talked to the and by the way can I add that the Commanding Officer I believe his name was Colonel Hawkins.

AZ: Regimental Commanding Officer.

JB: He was down there too. And I don’t think they didn’t waste too much time you know. Inspect the guards talk and so on and they got in the motorcade and someday you are going to talk about, not to get off the subject talk about the King and Queen but we get talking you will remember which you should you know Roosevelt came through here too. We didn’t have the security I don’t believe for him that we had for the King and Queen of England.

EH: That’s a good comparison.

AZ: Roosevelt came through here quick like. I was not here. I was in Plattsburg (NY) on maneuvers. Some of the people who were left behind formed a very fast “Guard of Honor.” Franklin D. Roosevelt who just came back from visiting with Churchill, they had a conference someplace. I forgot where that was. It was someplace on the ocean. And he came down here real secret, real secret trip. No one knew that Roosevelt was away. He came down here and somebody had to cross his legs for him what not to get in the car. They got off the Naval vessel here. They got in a car to go to Red Bank and get on a train. I wasn’t here. This is what I was told.

EH: When was it?

AZ: This was August of ’39 because I was up in Plattsburgh and I was not here. That’s why I know it was in August of ’39.

JB: See I don’t know the dates. I don’t know the dates myself. I don’t for some reason I never tried to know what I mean, concentrate on too much about dates and so on. So they had the FBI and them down here. You know FBI men they had their cars down here in the motor pool. In fact, I was on guard duty and that had nothing to do with us. We done our own guard duty. But the fact of the FBI men standing right there in them cars at least one of them day and night until he came. Nobody to, you know, we could talk to the guy and we could walk around the car and stick our head in and say something to him or something like that. You know. He (Roosevelt) got off in two stages. He come over on I don’t know anything about Navy but one destroyer I guess and due to the fact it has such a draft they had to transfer him over to a smaller destroyer, what ever and then to the dock. And once he got to the dock…

TH: That’s correct. I think he was on the cruiser Tuscaloosa. Then they had to transfer him to a destroyer.

JB: Yeah right. Because the big job couldn’t get him into the dock up here.

AZ: Just for the record I would like to add that John mentioned Colonel Hawkins, who was a Lt. Colonel. He was the Regimental Commander, but the Commanding Officer was also here participating in the ceremony. His name was Forrest E. Williford, Colonel 7th Coast Artillery. He was the Commanding Officer of the Post. Colonel commanding of the Post. There was only one Colonel here in those days. One full Colonel, eagle Colonel and he was always a member of the 7th Coast Artillery, never the 52nd. Three in a row. Williford was the Colonel here, Commanding Officer when the King and Queen came to visit, top man.

EH: What was your assignment, Mr. Bishop at the time of FDR’s visit? What was your exact detail?

JB: Well, I can tell you one thing, I was in a position where I had to give him a salute, but I was the only walking up to the dock and I couldn’t get up there before they were coming by. But I believe, I don’t know why I was off duty that time. I don’t know if I had pulled guard duty. I know that I pulled guard duty, like I told you. I could look in and talk to the FBI guy while he was checking, you know making sure that the motor vehicles that were going to be used. They brought their own special car, you know Roosevelt’s car and the FBI cars. And I know and I could have been on guard duty that night and off the next day I don’t remember what hour he came through here whether it was the morning or the afternoon, early afternoon, I’m not sure. Would you know anything about that? But anyway, I know that I wasn’t on any duty at the time because I was going to walk up to the dock to see him go off. But I only got as far as where the bend is today. It’s blocked off because of the Coast Guard up there but there was a bend in the road just before you got to the dock. Well, I hit just about that spot, got up to that spot and I saw the motorcade coming down so I stopped. Being in uniform I saluted. And believe it or not I got a return salute from the President of the United States.

EH: Wow.

JB: It was very impressive. And you know what surprised me, the man wore a fedora hat. I knew he had kind of a large head, but you know his head was much bigger than I realized until you saw him in person. You saw him in pictures and you could see that he had a large head. But you had to see him in person to realize that his head was tremendous. He was kind of a big built man, you know. He rode in an open car. That I do remember. He had an open car. I don’t believe we gave him security like we did. They might have had a few ships out here in the Harbor you know something like that. Other than that I don’t remember what they really did for him.

AZ: John, I would say that if that’s the case it must have been a secret trip. Most people didn’t know he was going to be here.

JB: Yeah, right.

AZ: The King and Queen were announced and published all over so they had to watch. Who knew Roosevelt was going to be here? People here didn’t know it until maybe hours earlier.

JB: Did you make a copy of that photograph? I believe you did make a copy of that.

EH: Of Roosevelt in the open car? Yeah.

TH: Yeah.

JB: I didn’t think you would want to miss that one.

AZ: I would like to know from Mr. Bishop is how he missed out on going up to Plattsburgh where we sweated bullets? How come he was here?

JB: I don’t know. I don’t know why. (laughter) And one time they even tried to get me over to the World’s Fair in 1939. Somebody was taken sick over there and lucky I didn’t get sent over there to begin with and they wanted me to go over there. But you had a choice. They asked you. I said I didn’t want to go over there.

AZ: Can we talk about that? The World’s Fair detail, or you don’t want to.

EH: Sure. Sure why not.

AZ: 1939, January. I went home on furlough. No money, destitute. 30 days I’m going home. I hung around and froze in that cold water flat my Mother had.

EH: Where was this?

AZ: Garfield, New Jersey. I came back here and the Battery Clerk, Joe Newman said to me, “Al, I got you off a detail.” (I said) “What kind of detail.” “World’s Fair detail. I had you name listed here. You were picked out to go to Fort Totten on Bayside Queens to get outfitted in tailor made uniforms drill, drill, drilll and in the spring you are supposed to go with this detail to the World’s Fair.” I said, “Joe why didn’t you let me know.” He said, “I didn’t want to bother you. You were home on furlough.” These guys had it made. They went to the World’s Fair. They got tailor made uniforms, not dress blues. They were ODs (olive drab). One day, there were two outfits, two battalions there were certain guys were picked. I was one of them. He saved me he thought I would be happy to go home and have a good meal then go over there and get a dress uniform olive drab and go over to the World’s Fair and polish you brass and everything in the morning and you paraded. Retreat Parade in the evening. And the other group was off. The next day you were off and the other group polished their brass and paraded. That was it. They slept there in tents all summer but it was nice there. They had it made. In case you people don’t know it, in September of 1939 the Infantry Drill Regulations were changed. He was talking about two ranks, John. They changed from two ranks to three ranks and they changed commands. The detail at World’s Fair, at the World’s Fair in 1939 was the last outfit in the United States Army to do squads like the old command. The last outfit in the United States Army because they didn’t change them in mid-stream. There would be too many mistakes. They let them finish and the last day, the last parade, the commanding officer of that outfit gave the commands pass and review squads right. Then the platoon sergeants, I knew fellas who were there. The platoon sergeants sounded squads right all the corporals sounded squads right and the whole outfit, maybe five or six hundred men gave the command squads right and the commanding officer gave the command march. And they marched off. It was the last time squads right was used in the U.S. Army.

EH: Hmm. That’s pretty dramatic. Really.

AZ: And I wasn’t there. It bothers me. (laughter)

JB: How come you didn’t ask me how come they didn’t send you over there? I went up to Fort Drum (NY). I tell you when I was in the service I used to do little things without thinking but never got in trouble over it. Like I got the picture at home and someday I’m going to donate it. It shows all of E Battery and we have got the white gloves on like you said when we had dress uniforms on. White gloves okay, we were out on the field and everything went good. Now this is me. White gloved and everything. We were all out there having our pictures taken on the field and we come back over by the barracks I think 23 or one of them barracks over there. We had our pictures taken over there. And I believe we were seated some of us. But you know, I took my white gloves off and I sat there with my gloves just like I’m holding these post cards and everybody else has got their gloves on. (laughter) Little things like that, I didn’t realize I took my gloves off. Another time we were going down to Fort Dix (NJ) to the rifle range. We had to stop, you know what I mean, the call of nature so the Captain must have said that everyone must stay to the right hand side of the trucks. We jumped out of the back and go to the right hand side of the truck that put us curb area we say toward the wooden area. Me, I jumped out and go to the left side of the truck. So the Captain said to me, I don’t think he cared much for me. His name was Captain Hennessey. I was thinking about him today. I was sitting down at the table by Battery E and I was eating my lunch and I was thinking of all these things. So, he caught me, so he said, “Okay when you get down to the camp” he said, “I want you to report,” I forget now who he told me, some sergeant or somebody and he said, “You tell him I said you get extra duty.” I said, Okay, Captain.” I got to camp and I never mentioned that. I figured that the Captain would be on his way back in the next convoy. He was not going to hang around down there, you know sleep under them conditions. I never reported it to nobody and I never got no extra duty neither. But things like that I used to do, you know, off hand without thinking.

AZ: Captain Hennessey later became a Major.

JB: Oh yeah.

AZ: Captain Hennessey gave me my test for expert gunner.

JB: No kidding.

AZ: And he passed me. He was rough

JB: Yeah. That’s what I mean. He was rough. He was military.

AZ: You know he was his Battery Commander. (inaudible) Like I am going to tell you a real fast one about him. Okay? Right down here this road that runs along Headquarters down to end behind that Officer’s Quarters. There’s a curve back there. I was walking that road there I remember walking number two Post. Captain Hennessey was “Officer of the Day.” He had an old mustache they called him Spike, Spike Hennessey.

JB: He has a little mustache.

AZ: He stopped me. I expected this. They had their own cars. I walked. They didn’t have GI cars in those days so we knew each officer’s car. And if we didn’t know the car you saw the saber, “Officer of the Day” always carried a saber. If you walked this Post you would see him coming out of the Bachelor Officers Quarters. So this Hennessey stops me and we are talking and he’s asking me all kinds of questions. Oh, he asked me everything; General Orders, Special Orders for that Post, who is the Secretary of War, who is the, the whole bit, you know the Chief of Staff all of this. I’m answering everything and before you know it…I’m standing at attention and I go well, I’ve had enough of this (inaudible) He went crazy. He’s at attention. Stand at attention. He said, “What would you do if the next time you walk the street you saw that house on this side of the street.” The stock answer was, but nobody ever said it, “I’ll change my brand of liquor.” But no one ever used this thing. They always said they were going to do it but no one ever did it. I was just on the verge of saying, “I’ll change my brand of liquor. (laughter) I said, “No, you don’t say that to him. He’ll kill you right there on the spot.” You know he was so rough. I said, “Oh no, I’ll call the “Corporal of the Guard” and that’s the end of it. That was it. He rattled me. I goofed. You know sometimes I made a mistake and mistakes are not acceptable. Mistakes are unacceptable. Period.

JB: Another time I was saying a different thing that you shouldn’t do it. You should be military all the while right here on this porch we had a tall officer, I forget what his name was. He was a lieutenant. Very tall he must have been about six foot four or six foot five. Of course, he had to have a long pretty good saber and like he (Al) said you knew every officer’s car. Okay, he comes along in his car. I forget what hour of the morning or night but he pulls up right out in front of the Headquarters, the Guard House right here in front. He gets out of his car and while he’s out in front of there standing I know it was after 11 o’clock because that’s when you had to challenge. After 11 o’clock anybody on the street or anywhere you challenge him. And he is hooking up a saber, see them sabers you could take them loose from the belt. And he was putting them back on his belt and everything and he’s standing there so I said, “I know who he is so I’m not going to challenge him.” So he comes around the car and walks right up on the porch and he says to me, he says, “Why didn’t you challenge me?” “Ah, come on.” I says, “I know who you are. A big tall guy like you.” I says, “We don’t have another officer as big and tall as you are.” I said, “You stand there putting your saber on.” I said, “I got a good look at you.” It was a pretty bright night. And anyways he said you know, he was a nice guy. He said, “You know, you should challenge.” I said, “What’s the difference. Why bother you.” So nothing was done about it. Not too long after I was hitchhiking not too long after that. They picked me up right outside the Gate some other officers. They were kidding me about it. He was. He said, “What do you think of John here he doesn’t challenge me the other night.” He said, “I could have took him on.” I said, “Yeah. You only had a saber but I had a rifle.” I said, “Keep that in mind.” (laughter)

AZ: You should hear some of the stories we could tell you about these incidents. These rifles and stuff.

END OF INTERVIEW